Talk:Noam Chomsky
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[edit] Liberal?!?!?!
Chomsky is hardly by any stretch of the imagination a liberal, unless you're a Conservapedian who defines "liberal" as "not conservative." PFoster 20:08, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
I've removed the bit about Chomsky being "popular and well known in almost every country of the world except his home country of the United States," and that "he reason for this is that the powers to be in America don't like what Noam has to say so they use their propaganda arm, the mainstream media, to marginalize Professor Chomsky and shut out his opinions" because 1. a lot of the language is vague, 2. the statements are completely without any documentation to support them and 3. I'm not sure how "marginalized" Chomsky really is - he's Professor Emeritus at one of the most reputable universities in the country, and I can buy each and every one of his books at the Barnes and Nobles or the Borders at the mall. PFoster 15:38, 15 November 2007 (EST)
[edit] Hugo Chavez
The comment about Hugo Chavez and Chomsky's book seem to be true-ish. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/23/books/23chomsky.html
I don't know if one can conclude that Chomsky has become increasingly popular due to this though. I'll leave it out as it's not really a very important point about Chomsky.JoeDuffy 08:57, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
- I changed the article to reflect the story above. CreamTwoSugars 09:33, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
[edit] His linguistics is not so good.
Computer programs based on Chomskian linguistics are poor translators, statistics-based devices translate much better. Modern neurology shows that real brains are based on statistics, which they must to be able to circumvent unplanned obstacles like those commonly found in nature (which robots steered by classical computers cannot). It has also been shown that statistical processing makes it possible to infer all grammatical rules from infant-directed speech without innate preconceptions, and that all universal or near-universal grammatical rules can be explained as innovations out of linguistic laziness without any need to invoke any common instinct(Francisco Lacerda) and that it is possible to develop/recover any cognitive ability, including language, after brain damage destroying any specific part of the brain, provided just that there is no rigid curriculum to prevent unconventional approaches to learning (Mind, Brain and Education).95.209.107.197 (talk) 14:08, 13 November 2011 (UTC)Martin J Sallberg
- I don't know of any computer programs that attempt to use chomsky linguistics to form the auto translation - and in fact Chomsky himself would say a computer cannot (yet) do language, so it would not be a basis for translations. Brains are not based at all on statistics, they are based on a process of interlaced awareness - that is, linked memories, linked assumptions, and linked creativity which produce novel solutions to novel problems. "statistical processes make it possible to infer grammatical rules?" are you kidding me? if that were teh case, we would have computers that could understand language. we do not, and so far we cannot. Lacerda does not, as far as I can tell, talk about "linguistic laziness", but rather stresses the way the mind reinforces language into simple patterns of sound. I assume you've studied ASL, yes? Cause that should strongly challenge your "statistical rule" theory. Further, I'm not sure that I've seen studies that actually support the idea that parts of the brain do not control language, or that they have been rewired, for all it is an intriguing possibility.--
GodotI smell roasted chestnuts. droollllllll. 15:29, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- When I wrote that brains are based on statistics, I did NOT deny the importance of connectivity, I just meaned that neurons process information in a non-binary way that allows gradual comparisons instead of absolute yes and no. And yes, statistical computers are fairly good translators. Statistics can reveal any correlation patterns and do not need to test every rule separately. It is just that inferring the rules in the grammar do not mean understanding what the language means, because no "disembodied brain" (intelligence without sensory input) can have any frame of reference to learn what the words mean. Another contributing limitation is that in non-binary brains, brainpower is all about improving neurological precision. It is often said that human language differs from animal communication by having specific words instead of just signals for whole contexts, which is mostly correct with some modifications for brainy animals like apes having intermediate levels of neurological precision (more specific than normal animal signals but less specific than proper human words), meaning that a statistical computer with much less capacity than a human brain should, by statistical language theory, have animalistic language limitations. Maybe I should call it "interferometric brain" instead of "statistical brain". Consider that during sleep, different parts of the brain do not communicate with each other. Voices heard in dreams speak complete nonsense, just like non-recovered aphasia patients. That some parts of the brain show more activity than others during specific tasks do NOT mean that part of the brain does the task alone, only that that task activates a statistically higher number of connections passing through that brain region. Destroying such regions may cause seemingly specific impairments, but it is just because of the number of connections involved, NOT because some regions is anyhow specialized for tasks others cannot learn (such iron-clad specialization is impossible because non-binary brains act by pattern emergence from examples and therefore cannot treat instinct-information fundamentally different from how they treat sensory information) And yes, there several documented cases of people recovering after having parts of the brain destroyed. Brooke had almost his whole left hemisphere removed at age 11. He could not speak just after waking up from the narcosis, but after six weeks he could say "mama", after one year he could have a decent conversation, and barely three years after the surgery he could attend a normal school class. It is all described in the show "Mind, Brain and Education". And yes, the metastudy shows that the key factor in recovering is a tolerant, flexible environment. The show contrasted the plasticity of the brain itself with the implasticity of the peripheral nervous system, remarking that the origin of dyslexia is in the sensory cells such as the retina, which I am sure is because the brain is a lump, allowing easy formation of new connections, while the peripheral nervous system consists of linear threads incapable of horizontal communication.
79.138.208.52 (talk) 17:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)Martin J Sallberg
- I don't know anything about computer translators, but you're wrong that neurons process information in a non-binary way. They operate on the all-or-none principle. When you say that the brain is "statistical" and that information is processed in a non-binary way, do you mean a Bayesian-style connectionist model? I think you're confusing some terms here. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Just because neurons either fire or not fire do ABSOLUTELY NOT mean that they always fire at the same intensity when they fire or that other neurons react as if it were the same intensity. In fact, neurons can and do fire at different intensities, and that variation affects not only whether or not the receiving neurons fire in turn, but also at which intensity they fire if they do fire. Furthermore, there are synapses of different degrees of permeability, some let almost the whole signal through but there is a scale with more and more weakening of the signal for some synapses. The evolutionary reason why brains must be non-binary and statistical is that nature is full of unplanned obstacles, which robots with binary steering units cannot circumvent. 109.58.98.10 (talk) 15:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)Martin J Sallberg
[edit] Regular Expression
Regular Expressions were invented by Stephen Cole Kleene before Chomsky worked on the topic. Chomsky only invented the Context-Free and Context-Sensitive language classes.--141.70.13.66 (talk) 18:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Conspiracy theories
I don't know much about Prof. Noam Chomsky, but I have seen his work used a lot by conspiracy theorists. I know for a fact that he has denounced 9/11 truthers, but does he ever mention in his words anything of the likes of "New World Order" or such? Mr. Anon (talk) 18:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Not really in the way you're looking for. He doesn't go about arguing for secret cabals or hidden political formations; he's looking at political power and class interests. Some people read that as a conspiracy theory in itself ("the NTY is in the back pocket of the Republican Party/big business/etc. etc.") but basically he sees power as a structural phenomenon, in which business interests, politics, the media, etc all play their parts. P-Foster Talk "The existing superstructure has handed out crumbs. We don’t want crumbs; we want the whole loaf now.” --Ras Frank I 19:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Bias Regarding 'Genocide' and Faurisson Affair
I've altered this section to be more accurate, and less biased/irritating. Whoever wrote it knowingly failed to include Chomsky's rationale for avoiding the word 'genocide', and falsely stated that Chomsky contributed his essay to Faurisson's book. It was unknowingly used, and Chomsky defended Faurisson's right to express and publish his opinions on the grounds that freedom of speech must be extended to all viewpoints. Chomsky also said, 'I made it explicit that I would not discuss Faurisson's work, having only limited familiarity with it (and, frankly, little interest in it).' That is not a 'collaboration'.— Unsigned, by: 82.1.152.232 / talk / contribs 11:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
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I too have looked into the allegations of chomsky engaging in "genocide denial" (it's simply not there) which as far as I know is a separate concept including more than denying genocide and found that his complaints about the treatment of srebrenica are entirely centered around the colloquial usage(as revealed by the use-reference quotes of his)/the criteria for the UN's methodology for it (there is no downplaying or denial that the UN has deemed it so) and the lack of attention towards a large number of other even larger massacres
from one email "As for (1), it's certainly true, though the bulk of the atrocities were Bosnian Serbs. As for Srebrenica, the most extensive study, by the Dutch government, concludes that Belgrade didn't know about it, and that Milosevic was appalled when he heard about it. That's being kept under wraps because it explodes the Tribunal, which is unusually dishonest even by those not glorious standards."
"As for (2), it depends on how one wants to use the term "genocide." Personally, I prefer to keep it in its original intent: the Holocaust, Rwanda, maybe a few other cases. I never even called East Timor "genocide," though maybe 1/3 of the population was killed by Indonesia-US-UK, along with others who thought they could make a buck. Or Vietnam. Or Guatemala and El Salvador. But by now the term has been so cheapened that anything can be called "genocide" as long as some enemy carries out it. So there's no answer." .
from an email conversation "I purposely mentioned only one aspect of the book, which I do think is important, particularly so because of how it is ignored: namely the vulgar politicization of the word “genocide,” now so extreme that I rarely use the word at all. The mass slaughter in Srebrenica, for example, is certainly a horror story and major crime, but to call it “genocide” so cheapens the word as to constitute virtual Holocaust denial, in my opinion. It amazes me that intelligent people cannot see that."
"A second point raised in my letter to you (and in the article) is the vulgarization of the phrase “genocide,” so extreme as to amount to virtual Holocaust denial, and the reason why I rarely use the term. Take a concrete case: the murder of thousands of men and boys after women and children are allowed to flee if they can get away.
I’m referring to Fallujah, different from Srebrenica in many ways, among them that in the latter case the women and children were trucked out, and in the former case the destruction and slaughter was so extreme that current studies in medical journals estimate the scale of radiation-related deaths and diseases at beyond the level of Hiroshima. I would not however call it “genocide,” nor would you, and if the word were used, the more extreme apologists for western crimes, like Kamm, would go utterly berserk. Another of many illustrations of the two basic facts."
[edit] Another snippet of bias
He also attempted to downplay refugee escapees stories of the events, on the grounds that no independent verification could be done, despite the fact the Khmer Rouge kept meticulous records of the atrocities, as well as records and photographs of their victims (many of which are openly on display at the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum).
Presumably this is referring to the book review he wrote in 1977, (and reprinted in Political Economy of Human Rights Volume 2, published in 1979). Isn't it intellectually dishonest to expect him to be able to independently verify the early reports using meticulous records that were only available to the rest of the world after the Khmer Rouge were deposed in 1979? 80.195.251.78 (talk) 19:41, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Can we add the category "Extreme moonbattery"?
As a leftist myself, I'll admit Chomsky has promoted some reasonable things, but he's still a little too extreme. He flirts around with genocide denial, hardly ever condemns horrible acts committed by other countries, advocates anarchism, and even promotes some of his own crazy conspiracy theories. Even some other leftists have criticized him. — Unsigned, by: 183.222.161.186 / talk / contribs
- I'm a leftist as well, but in order for Chomsky to be a moonbat, he has to say extremely crazy stuff on a VERY constant basis. In other words, he's more of an inverse stopped clock. 100.11.21.239 (talk) 22:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've likewise argued against this categorisation on User talk:Arisboch (he added the category), because:
- Arisboch claims that because Chomsky uses a variant of the not as bad as-fallacy to justify not applying the term genocide to describe anything but the Holocaust this makes him a denialist (I think this is stretching the definition of denialist way too far, even if I think Chomsky is wrong on this point).
- This one instance, which pertains to linguistics, not disputing the facts of, say, the Armenian Genocide, is hardly something that means Chomsky can unequivocally be labelled an extreme moonbat (that, to me, would require the kind of consistent craziness as mentioned by .239 above).
- Seriously, look at the other entries in the category (cue Arisboch making another "Haha! That's a not as bad as falllacy!"-post). Even a relatively sane example such as Naomi Klein deals in quasi-conspiracy theory arguments in The Shock Doctrine[wp] (Klein ought to read up on Hanlon's Razor). I agree that Chomsky's argument is spurious, but it doesn't involve bizarre conspiracy claims or even outlandish logic.
- Also, none of those who keep reinstating the category has offered any justification beyond the (to me) rather flimsy one by Arisboch on his talk page. So, I'm going to stick my neck out and delete the category (again) until I see some more solid grounds for reinstating it. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Close enough to denialist, just like Neo-Nazis, who don't outright deny the Holocaust, but try to diminish it (push the body count down, make excuses for the perpetrators, demonize the allies and similar). And it's not only the Armenian Holocaust, he did it to the genocides in Srebrenica, Kosovo, Rwanda and to the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge. A constant history of using the Holocaust to diminish other atrocities warrants that category.--Arisboch (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, but pointing out that the Armenian Genocide was on a far smaller scale and using this "not as bad as"-argument to refuse applying the "genocide label" to it is nothing Neo-Nazis who try to diminish/deny the Holocaust or Turkish nationalists trying to diminish/deny the Armenian Genocide by "push[ing] the body count down, mak[ing] excuses for the perpetrators, demoniz[ing] the allies and similar."
- This was my gripe to begin with: Chomsky is not denying or even minimising the facts, but using a (flawed) argument about the relative scale of these genocides as the reason for calling them something else. If Chomsky had said that this "not as bad as"-argument even minimally justified these other genocides or made them less abhorrent, you might've had a point, but (to my knowledge at least) he hasn't.
- Oh, and if you do feel the need to revert, please manually reinsert the category or at least keep the correct alphabetisation I also put in when I deleted the extreme moonbattery category. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- He did, by being publicly reluctant to call them genocides by using the Holocaust as a pretext. It's not outright denial, but it's close enough.--Arisboch (talk) 10:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's nowhere near outright denial mate, it's an argument over semantics. This is not extreme moonbattery. Tielec01 (talk) 10:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- You don't have consensus here, Arisboch. Let it go. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- So, because he makes a (bad) case for rhetorically distinguishing between the Holocaust and (other) genocides because of their relative scale this puts Chomsky in the same category as Holocaust denialists and Armenian Genocide denialists who either play down the actual and absolute number of victims, claim that the perpetrators were somehow justified or weren't deliberately carrying out a genocidal campaign, or deny that the events took place altogether? I hope you can see the rather obvious difference here.
- Instead, Arisboch's criticism of Chomsky actually sounds quite like part of what Norman Finkelstein has criticised as The Holocaust Industry[wp]: rhetorically downgrading other genocides based on the ludicrous notion that calling all of them genocides would somehow "water down" the particular horror of the Holocaust. Sure it's a load of crap, but it isn't denialism. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's close enough to denialism. Because denying genocides is in today's day, thankfully, unacceptable anywhere except in the fringe of the fringe of the fringe, people wiggle around it by either being publicly reluctant to use the word "genocide" (read the article on this very wiki about him!) or using the tu quoque in case of the Khmer Rouge.--Arisboch (talk) 11:13, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Again: You don't have consensus. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, this is getting silly, Arisboch. You now have three people telling you why Chomsky's sophistry is not the same as denialism by citing the examples you yourself provided, and your only comeback is that it's "close enough"?
- And then you start speculating about possibly nefarious motives without actually providing any of the examples I've already asked for: Instances of Chomsky using his "not as bad as"-argument to make these other genocides seem somehow justified or make them less abhorrent on their own terms (rather than, correctly, identifying their smaller scale relative to the Holocaust when it comes to total casualty figures).
- Also, what's tu quoque in case of the Khmer Rouge Killing Fields? Hell, I'll even grant that the Cambodian case sits ill with legal(!) definitions of genocide since these typically don't mention socio-economic class, but only "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". ScepticWombat (talk) 11:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Read the article about him on this very wiki.--Arisboch (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- I did, and I also read what I could from the source on his criticism of the Khmer Rouge tribunal. Chomsky doesn't claim that the Khmer Rouge didn't kill a shitload of their countrymen, but criticised the prosecution for being limited to the time between the end of the U.S. bombing of Cambodia and before the U.S. started to support the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese, or at least that's as much as I can read for free. This is not an exceptional criticism, indeed this aspect of the Khmer Rouge tribunal has been widely seen as a case of UN/US hypocrisy or at least selective justice.
- Basically, I think that this source, or at least the free excerpt, actually doesn't support the text in the RW article, so it's not so much an argument in favour of your genocide denial allegations as a case for revising the RW article's text, or finding some sources that actually match it. I've also noted that the following allegations of Chomsky's denialism vis-a-vis the Khmer Rouge are completely unsourced, and in need of some good references that aren't snapshots of the event while they took place (when the scale and horror made many outsiders reluctant to believe the all too true stories coming out of isolated Cambodia), but at a point when the atrocities were well-documented and -published so as to avoid Hanlon's Razor. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:47, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Read the article about him on this very wiki.--Arisboch (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Again: You don't have consensus. Queexchthonic murmurings 11:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's close enough to denialism. Because denying genocides is in today's day, thankfully, unacceptable anywhere except in the fringe of the fringe of the fringe, people wiggle around it by either being publicly reluctant to use the word "genocide" (read the article on this very wiki about him!) or using the tu quoque in case of the Khmer Rouge.--Arisboch (talk) 11:13, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- It's nowhere near outright denial mate, it's an argument over semantics. This is not extreme moonbattery. Tielec01 (talk) 10:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- He did, by being publicly reluctant to call them genocides by using the Holocaust as a pretext. It's not outright denial, but it's close enough.--Arisboch (talk) 10:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Close enough to denialist, just like Neo-Nazis, who don't outright deny the Holocaust, but try to diminish it (push the body count down, make excuses for the perpetrators, demonize the allies and similar). And it's not only the Armenian Holocaust, he did it to the genocides in Srebrenica, Kosovo, Rwanda and to the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge. A constant history of using the Holocaust to diminish other atrocities warrants that category.--Arisboch (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Argument examined. Stating that the Armenian Genocide does not meet his standards of what a genocide would actually be, IE, Holocaust-level, is neither genocide minimization or genocide denial. It's a statement of opinion that he does not agree with the current standards of genocides and how they should be reassessed. I think Chomsky's opinion is shit-fuck wrong, but it's a valid statement of opinion. He doesn't deny the existence of the Armenian Genocide. He makes no qualitative comparisons about killing Armenians versus killing Jews (and others). A wrong opinion, but simply an opinion nonetheless.
- Therefore, not extreme moonbattery.
- (No, I am not a leftist.) --Castaigne (talk) 18:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've likewise argued against this categorisation on User talk:Arisboch (he added the category), because: