Talk:Non-binary gender
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[edit] What's the third gender?
It says that in trigender, they shift between "A third gender." What is it? This sounds a bit ridiculous to me. Any scientific evidence to support these people not being full of it? Parogar (talk) 08:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Just about any of the third genders mentioned in the article could be options, really. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 08:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Its existence if obvious once you realise that a lot of what we consider 'gender' is more about societal roles, expectations and behaviour than it ever was to do with biology. All it takes is a society where there's a stereotype of behaviour and identity that isn't the same as the local 'male' or 'female'. Queexchthonic murmurings 10:44, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's not true, though. Scientists believe gender is both societal and environmental, with no standing consensus on which plays the more prominent factor. If you're saying gender is societal, then you're speaking from a position not of science, but of personal, anecdotal observation. Parogar (talk) 14:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- How does something being 'both societal and environmental' stop something from being societal? If you like, just replace 'societal' with 'societal and environmental' in the above. Arguing against the possibility of a third gender requires a strong and unscientific appeal to biological determinism. Once the possibility is on the table, all you need to demonstrate its reality is to find an example, an abundance of which the article provides. Queexchthonic murmurings 19:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Hey Parogar...there are several other options besides male and female LISTED IN THE ARTICLE that could be the third gender. Unless you want to confront the muxes, hijiras, bissus, two-spirits, and all the other non-binary folks on this planet and tell them that they are "just full of it". Asarelah (talk) 02:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Furthermore, why is it so impossible that one's neurology can be intersex without one's body being intersex? Binary transsexuals have scientific acceptance as being the gender they identify as due to their neurology. Why are you skeptical the claim of non-binaries to having a different mental wiring? Asarelah (talk) 02:44, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed of the groups of people who you mentioned above I notice that in every single society in which they exist they are still gender roles for men and women. None of these societies view gender identity as fluid or as being binary but rather they view gender identity as being ternary, quaternary or quinary. Alsto003 (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC) Alex
- Hey Parogar...there are several other options besides male and female LISTED IN THE ARTICLE that could be the third gender. Unless you want to confront the muxes, hijiras, bissus, two-spirits, and all the other non-binary folks on this planet and tell them that they are "just full of it". Asarelah (talk) 02:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- How does something being 'both societal and environmental' stop something from being societal? If you like, just replace 'societal' with 'societal and environmental' in the above. Arguing against the possibility of a third gender requires a strong and unscientific appeal to biological determinism. Once the possibility is on the table, all you need to demonstrate its reality is to find an example, an abundance of which the article provides. Queexchthonic murmurings 19:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's not true, though. Scientists believe gender is both societal and environmental, with no standing consensus on which plays the more prominent factor. If you're saying gender is societal, then you're speaking from a position not of science, but of personal, anecdotal observation. Parogar (talk) 14:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Listing other (and only a very select few) societies that also believed in these things (like two spirits) doesn't really mean anything, nor does it constitute evidence of anything other than the fact that a few other cultures believed in it. For example: just about every culture since the dawn of mankind has believed in one God or another. Does this prove there must at least be one God? Parogar (talk) 04:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- No, but it proves the existence of religion. Identity -- any identity -- is a societal convention and not just a physical description. Consider nationality. Attempting to define it purely in terms of the place where you were born or the place where you live is inadequate. The reality is more complicated; it involves legal and societal issues and often does not have clear boundaries between one state and another. Ultimately, nationality means what people accept it to mean -- it's a cultural artefact. So it is with gender. They 'believe' they have a different gender, yes, but that (and also perhaps a wider acceptance of that identity in their culture) is all that's required for it to be real. That bar is met. The argument you're making is essentially trying to claim that the existence of passports isn't sufficient to prove the existence of nationality. Queexchthonic murmurings 14:07, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Listing other (and only a very select few) societies that also believed in these things (like two spirits) doesn't really mean anything, nor does it constitute evidence of anything other than the fact that a few other cultures believed in it. For example: just about every culture since the dawn of mankind has believed in one God or another. Does this prove there must at least be one God? Parogar (talk) 04:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Wait, time out
Are you saying these people can MORPH between genders? Like, boy for 15 minutes, girl for 15 minutes, boy again for 15 minutes? That's some crazy-ass shit. Parogar (talk) 08:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- You mean people who are genderfluid? They exist, yup. And no, they don't switch genders every 15 minutes. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 08:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Science?
... yeah I am probably applying way to much of XKCD 386 here, but... it gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling. So anonymous visiting me will ramble on a bit. So, uh the article says there is no current science as to why people behave the way they do (within this topic). I mean, either there is a physiological reason we have yet to discover (aberrant neurology, dna markers and so on), or else it we have to look what we already know about the human psyche and sociology for an explanation. I mean we already know of psychological illnesses that produce a strong need for attention like Munchausen Syndrome or maybe there are other borderline personality disorders at play that mess with someones perception of self. But this is "gayness is a mental sickness" territory, so I don't expect studies to be made very soon. Do I need to make disclaimer that I do not view homosexulality as a mental sickness? In fact, I couldn't care any less about what makes you happy in bed. Or maybe the idea that is all about being a special snowflake is not so far out as many people would like it to be. I also don't buy the analogy to nationality or religion. Me believing that there is one god doesn't make him/her/it real or my believe true by default. It only makes me a monotheist and unlike quantifiable differences like having XY or XX this doesn't (or better, it shouldn't) entitle me to special treatment. And here is the thing, I can change my nationality or religion, even skin color is possible (if you are Micheal Jackson). I could get a baptisement and henceforth call myself a christian. However I can not change my DNA to the degree (in the forseable future anyway) to make me a woman or something in between. Point is, to claim that gender is something that exists decoupled from your DNA is nonsense. Nothing exists in a vacuum and like we take the time into account when judging a work of art, we need to account for all variables, including sociological, psychological and physiological ones. In the end, I think we have to apply the scientific method.
Observation: People claim to be off different gender than the two known ones.
-> Hypothesis: There are indeed more than two genders perviously observed.
-> Null hypothesis: People are making shit up because they want to feel important.
-> Counternull hypothesis: People are suffering from an undiagnosed personality disorder.
For starters and people with communications degrees, having a number of poeple lining up saying "I feel like an indistinct human being" is not going to be sufficient proof. If we can't produce hard data like ct images or DNA markers that show the differences, we need to fall back on statistics, comparing responses to stimuli from the group we want to do science on to one that acts as the control group to which we compare the first. We could compare responses from people who identify as indeterminate to who identify with their biological gender and look if there are sufficient differences or similarities we could use to prove or refute the hypothesis. We can ask psychologists to examine those who take part in a study for personality disorders to proove or refute the counter null by comparing these results to the control group of identify with their biological gender. If neither hypothesis or counterhypothesis are proven to be true, it is prudent to go with the null hypothesis until a better hypothesis comes along that could give us a better explanation the observed phenomenon or wait until technology and research in other areas catches up.77.8.92.24 (talk) 02:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- First of all, your statement that gender is something that cannot be decoupled from DNA is staggeringly ignorant. The article contains a link describing the causes of transsexualism, and transsexualism IS MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY RECOGNIZED. SCIENCE RECOGNIZES BINARY TRANSSEXUALS AS BEING THE GENDER THEY IDENTIFY AS. There are also intersex people in this world whose DNA doesn't match up to the genitals that they were born with. There are cisgender women who were born with vaginas who have XY chromosomes. Second of all, the "intersex neurological condition" hypothesis is just that: A HYPOTHESIS. The article clearly states that NOBODY knows why these people identify as they do. Your idea that these people have some kind of pathological personality disorder not only has no scientific precedent to back it up (unlike the intersex neurology hypothesis), it contributes to the stigmatization of non-binary people, and it is thus socially irresponsible. By the way, a psychological disorder is largely defined by whether or not it impairs ones ability to function and whether or not it causes one distress. The non-binary people from cultures where they are accepted are not viewed as being "sick" or "crazy" or "attention whores" and they are functioning, contributing members of their respective societies. By the way, we ARE ALLOWED to speculate about scientific explanations for unexplained phenomena on Rational Wiki. You want ultra-stringent standards and peer-reviewed papers? Go to regular Wikipedia. Asarelah (talk) 19:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Some thoughts about third genders
Not my intention to deny the possibility of other than the two typical genders existing, but reading the examples on this article I couldn't avoid thinking that most of those "third genders" exist in traditional cultures with strongly enforced gender roles, and wouldn't make much sense in a more modern society. For example, without considering myself any other thing than a cisgender male, I do a series of activities (like cooking or changing diapers) that years ago would have marked me as effeminate or not enough masculine. As society liberalizes individuals can feel attracted to people of either sex, dress or act in androgynous ways, and enjoy activities traditionally reserved to the opposite sex without being identified as other than their chosen gender, male or female. But in a society with extremely strict gender roles, simply being a girl who likes sports may mark you as someone who obviously is not a "man" but neither fits in a proper "woman" role. I wonder how many of those historical "third gender" people would be, if put in a modern society, simply trans women, or gay men or even women who wanted to go to college or have economic independence (the Balkan "sworn virgins" seems like it could be this in a lot of the cases) and were forced into the third gender identity by a society who did not want their traditional gender roles contaminated by deviations of the norm. So maybe in the future as gender roles will dilute more and more is going to be less meaningful talking about non-binary genders? 46.24.106.218 (talk) 02:09, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, but doesn't that apply to genders in general? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 04:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC)