Talk:PZ Myers
Should this page be under "PZ Myers", the name he's pretty much universally known as? Using the full name "Paul Zachary Myers" is pretty much a CP affectation - David Gerard (talk) 20:06, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes it should, it's his name. The other versions are redirects to here, IIRC. I don't understand what CP has to do with this. ħuman
23:54, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
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[edit] Fire-breathing New Atheist, huh? (on profiling)
That militant, fire-breathing New Atheist really hates religious people, doesn't he? That's sarcasm.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Politics
The politics of Myers is clearly relevant and he's stated his opposition to Mitt Romney several times. I've improved the wording. Proxima Centauri (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- His politics are kinda relevant, I guess. I mean, as much as anybody's. If I'm looking for decent political analysis, there are a few hundred people I'd read before this guy. You've barely improved the wording. JubalHarshaw (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Do you want some specific criticism of your writing style? Here you are:
- It seems that you treat text as a list of unrelated sentences.
- As a consequence, it also seems that you treat articles as lists of facts without any attempt at connecting them in some chain of logic or a narrative with some point. You don't provide any context or analysis other than the elementary. You also don't seem to grasp the concept of "relevance" and the relative weight of what different facts say about the subject of the article.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- You need to first briefly describe his political stance and tell the reader why it matters. Then give some examples of positions he's taken and debates he's been involved in. Dude is a scientist, so you should probably focus on where his profession and his politics overlap--his takes on funding for scientific research or the place of science in public-school curricula are going to be interesting. His take on T-Paw is not interesting, because unless he got to interview Tim, or somehow had access to the inner workings of the campaign, he's probably just going off of what he read in the NYT. As a scientist with an interest in politics, he can bring some value added to questions about the politics of science. There is no reason to get into his views on taxation or the inner workings of the Romney campaign, 'cause he's really saying things that a lot of other people--people with better access to sources and a trained approach to how to deal with them--are saying better, and in much more high-profile settings. JubalHarshaw (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree the political views of Myers are less well informed than his science or his free thought campaigning but we're describing Myers as a person and that's all relevant. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cool, I'll write up a section on his dislike of cats later. ТyBother me 17:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- EC No it's not. There are lots of things about the guy as a person that aren't relevant. Does he floss? Boxers or briefs? Left-handed? Right-handed? What's his favorite food? Who was his favorite Beatle? What does he think about Tim Pawlenty's decision to bail on Romney? In an article on a wiki that is largely about science and politics, those questions aren't really important. The stuff I mentioned above is. JubalHarshaw (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- The above comments are a really good summary of how to understand what matters to a person's bio at RW (and probably other places). What is he active in? In this case, of course, biology, but also the atheist movement and his position within that movement on feminist issues. What is he saying that is a unique take on something? not politics, in this case, cause he's really just regurgatating what others have said, but perhaps he had some deep insight as a person who has met Obama or Romney, perhaps he taught a class with Obama. Then his insight is unique and worth mentioning. You can do a "toss on", especially if it is not apparent that he thinks this way. "Despite being a liberal feminist who is for Greener politics, he supports Romeny". then it's relevant, cause it's unexpected. If he has strong enough feelings about peace, or about torture that he publicly does not support Obama's rather centrist views, then that, too, might be note worthy.
Godotrien ne marcherait 18:31, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- The above comments are a really good summary of how to understand what matters to a person's bio at RW (and probably other places). What is he active in? In this case, of course, biology, but also the atheist movement and his position within that movement on feminist issues. What is he saying that is a unique take on something? not politics, in this case, cause he's really just regurgatating what others have said, but perhaps he had some deep insight as a person who has met Obama or Romney, perhaps he taught a class with Obama. Then his insight is unique and worth mentioning. You can do a "toss on", especially if it is not apparent that he thinks this way. "Despite being a liberal feminist who is for Greener politics, he supports Romeny". then it's relevant, cause it's unexpected. If he has strong enough feelings about peace, or about torture that he publicly does not support Obama's rather centrist views, then that, too, might be note worthy.
- EC No it's not. There are lots of things about the guy as a person that aren't relevant. Does he floss? Boxers or briefs? Left-handed? Right-handed? What's his favorite food? Who was his favorite Beatle? What does he think about Tim Pawlenty's decision to bail on Romney? In an article on a wiki that is largely about science and politics, those questions aren't really important. The stuff I mentioned above is. JubalHarshaw (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cool, I'll write up a section on his dislike of cats later. ТyBother me 17:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree the political views of Myers are less well informed than his science or his free thought campaigning but we're describing Myers as a person and that's all relevant. Proxima Centauri (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- You need to first briefly describe his political stance and tell the reader why it matters. Then give some examples of positions he's taken and debates he's been involved in. Dude is a scientist, so you should probably focus on where his profession and his politics overlap--his takes on funding for scientific research or the place of science in public-school curricula are going to be interesting. His take on T-Paw is not interesting, because unless he got to interview Tim, or somehow had access to the inner workings of the campaign, he's probably just going off of what he read in the NYT. As a scientist with an interest in politics, he can bring some value added to questions about the politics of science. There is no reason to get into his views on taxation or the inner workings of the Romney campaign, 'cause he's really saying things that a lot of other people--people with better access to sources and a trained approach to how to deal with them--are saying better, and in much more high-profile settings. JubalHarshaw (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Open Forum
"Pharyngula is quite an open forum and it takes much to get banned from there." The reference link is broken -I wonder what it could possibly have been anyway- which causes me to wonder why this is here. Is this true? At RW, much to my chagrin, we have banned two people for life- MC and Tisane; however In comparison to Pharyngula I think we look like 4chan. What do you guys reckon?Tielec01 (talk) 08:29, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- I haven't spent enough time at either Pharyngula or 4chan to comment on the comparisons, but your facts about RW are wrong. MC got a 2 year ban, & Tisane got 1 year; both will expire this August. AFAIK we haven't ever permabanned a legit editor. There are some user accounts in the block log with infinite bans, but they're all either sockpuppets or spambots. Weaseloid
Methinks it is a Weasel 00:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Justice for the fascists is coming! The RationalWiki revolution is near at hand! He shall return in glory!
- In all seriousness, yes, RW is quite unlike any community forum-type site, not just for the number and proliferation of admins and ultra-liberal block policy. The 4chan comparison was strongest in the first few years of our existence but is still somewhat relevant today.
Acer Blue 00:26, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Incidentally, moderators on 4chan have little accountability and are happy to ban on a whim. Especially on boards with heavy populations of anons--"Shut up, Brx." 00:33, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Interesting, cheers for the correction Weaseloid Surely the two year ban for MC is coming up to expiry then? In any case I'm still left wondering how much of an open forum Pharyngula is. Obviously the problem is that the comment is non-specific, what I consider open is probably different to Blue and so on. Does anyone know if there are precise rules that PZ uses, or is it more of an ad hoc approach to banning? Tielec01 (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
- For the record: Pharyngula's comment policy (read the whole thing), and how that policy works out in practice.
Radioactive Misanthrope 09:26, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
- For the record: Pharyngula's comment policy (read the whole thing), and how that policy works out in practice.
- Interesting, cheers for the correction Weaseloid Surely the two year ban for MC is coming up to expiry then? In any case I'm still left wondering how much of an open forum Pharyngula is. Obviously the problem is that the comment is non-specific, what I consider open is probably different to Blue and so on. Does anyone know if there are precise rules that PZ uses, or is it more of an ad hoc approach to banning? Tielec01 (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
- Incidentally, moderators on 4chan have little accountability and are happy to ban on a whim. Especially on boards with heavy populations of anons--"Shut up, Brx." 00:33, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Should this stay in the article?
Myers is strongly critical of misogyny, lack of respect for women and sexual harassment, he even criticises skeptical organisations over this. [1]
Proxima Centauri (talk) 18:18, 8 August 2013 (UTC)- Don't see how the citation backs the claim. It's a bunch of e-mails from people who aren't Myers. Plus the sentence is really poorly constructed. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
18:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- What with the previous sentence saying that Myers has taken a stand on the "feminist side" in the ongoing conflict over feminism, it seems rather redundant to point out that he's critical of misogyny, lack of respect for women and sexual harassment. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
- What with the previous sentence saying that Myers has taken a stand on the "feminist side" in the ongoing conflict over feminism, it seems rather redundant to point out that he's critical of misogyny, lack of respect for women and sexual harassment. Щєазєюіδ
[edit] Islam
I think Myers views are relevant.
[edit] Islam
“”“Religion of Peace,” my ass; Islam is the religion of ignorance and hate.
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| —<ref>[http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/23/mohammeds-dead-hand-still-ruin/ "Mohammed’s dead hand still ruins lives from the grave"]</ref> |
Myers has also criticized Islam quite strongly. He used the title "Vile Islam" in a blog post regarding a Bangladeshi husband who cut the fingers off his wife's right hand when she went to college without his consent.<ref>[http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/12/15/vile-islam/ "Vile Islam"]</ref> <ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16239784 Bangladeshi woman's husband 'chopped off her fingers']</ref> More recently Myers criticised [[Bangladesh]]i law because four atheists face up to 14 years imprisonment after posting material critical of Islam and [[Muhammad]] online. <ref>[http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/09/09/dangerous-nerds/ Dangerous nerds]</ref> Proxima Centauri (talk) 07:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- yeah isn't this the guy who said that Michael Shermer raped somebody? I guess to appeal to the whacky sensibilities of the ultra feminist atheists, who also tried to smear Pat Condell for thinking the wrong way (not liberal enough), and claim that atheism is a misogynist front and that criticizing Islam is somehow un-atheist. What was the proof that Shermer raped someone? So rational. — Unsigned, by: 173.22.37.6 / talk / contribs
- He published a few anonymous accounts of being saying that Shermer sleeps with extremely drunk women (which, if true, is rape, though part of me doubts Shermer would think so). He himself didn't actually take a stance on whether or not they were true (though you can definitely argue that that doesn't mean much functionally). As for Condell, he's hardly the first to point out that Condell's "criticism" veers rather quickly into outright racism ("Islam" isn't a race; though you'd never know from listening to Condell).ChrisB (talk) 15:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
You might have a point, if Condell went on about smelly Arabs and how they have smaller brains than white people or something like that. Saying an idea is stupid has nothing to do with saying someone is superior or inferior racially. By that logic, a woman who says that Christianity is male centered is guilty of misandry.— Unsigned, by: 173.22.37.6 / talk / contribs 07:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
- Condell's views are full of prejudice, overgeneralisation and vile hate, backed up with intentionally cherry-picked examples. Whether you want to call that "racism" or not on a technicality ("because Islam isn't a race") is pretty trivial... but anyway, what's particularly noteworthy about PZ's views on Islam? Does he single it out for extra special treatment in some way? I've never really seen anything out of the ordinary from PZ on the subject.
d hominem 15:34, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
- Condell's views are full of prejudice, overgeneralisation and vile hate, backed up with intentionally cherry-picked examples. Whether you want to call that "racism" or not on a technicality ("because Islam isn't a race") is pretty trivial... but anyway, what's particularly noteworthy about PZ's views on Islam? Does he single it out for extra special treatment in some way? I've never really seen anything out of the ordinary from PZ on the subject.
Right, criticizing Islam is basically being racist. By saying an ideology is destructive and idiotic, you're pretty much saying that arabs are inferior people. Are you serious? By that logic, someone who hates Judaism is anti-Semitic. You're all idiots. Rationalwiki indeed.— Unsigned, by: 173.22.37.6 / talk / contribs 07:50, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Michael Shermer
Is it really not worth mentioning that he called Michael Shermer a serial rapist and recieved a cease and desist letter forcing him to retract his statements? Hobby (talk) 15:20, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- See discussions here. I'm not aware of any retraction by PZM (link please?) & he hasn't taken down the accusatory blog posts from Pharyngula. If there are sources available confirming the outcome of that feud, it may be worth covering. Are there? Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 20:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- As far as we can tell it's fizzled out. Myers hasn't retracted and Shermer hasn't sued despite getting funds for legal action. Proxima Centauri (talk) 09:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Myers and divisions
PZ Myers is ready to be divisive and I’m sure a great deal of the time his divisiveness is over issues that justify divisions. Still I fear some of the divisions Myers gets into may harm the movement, Below is a recent example. What happened to This Week in Christian Nationalism?
Despite the fact that I’ve long appreciated her (Chris Rodda’s) work and think she was an asset to the network, this criticism was apparently the final straw for her, and she left. Maybe that’s for the best, given that she seems to think “atheist” is a legally actionable slander, and also that she thinks the praise of the HuffPo readership is actually worth something. (PZ Myers writing in the above link)
Five to ten minutes researching the web or an email to someone from the legal department of his university would have shown Myers a little reality. Calling someone an atheist falsely is defamation in American law providing there is negligence or bad intent and provided the person or entity is harmed. See Defamation from Cornell University and Actually, calling Mikey Weinstein an atheist IS Defamation!. (The second is a blog but I’ve found Patheos reliable. Paul Loebe who wrote the above blog post thinks PZ Myers may have harmed efforts to stop Christian fundamentalists treating the US military as a theocracy.) Prejudice against Atheists in the USA is such that falsely calling a person or organization atheist harms the reputation of the person/organization.
I think Myers needs monitoring to maximize the good he does to our movement and minimize the bad divisions. In the long run Myers and the Pharyngula blog will probably benefit if Myers is more careful what he writes. In PZ Myers I deal with what I feel is good and what I feel may need constructive criticism.
Anyway after about nine months monitoring Pharyngula I still think most of what Myers does is good. When he does something I feel is worth including In RationalWiki I write something. Proxima Centauri (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Courtier's reply
Which is better? _____________________________________________________________________
| This article or section requires revision to improve readability. |
Myers is famous for his "courtier's reply", which refutes the common claim that only clergy and those who have studied theology thoroughly are qualified to analyze matters of faith.<ref>PZ Myers, [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/24/the-courtiers-reply "The Courtier's Reply"], ''Pharyngula'', 24 December 2006.</ref> The claim is that only clergy and theologians understand the necessary technical jargon and other relevant material sufficiently well so they can understand religious work properly and make relevant comments. A good example of this claim is the way the atheist activism and writing of Myers' buddy Richard Dawkins are criticized. Many people are quick to suggest that Dawkins as an evolutionary biologist does not have the authority to criticize the faith of others.
The courtier's reply asserts that theologians must consider their own qualifications as well. Theology is such a vast field even experts cannot master the whole of it. Theologians cannot possibly read all the related material by other theologians, cannot become unparalleled authority on holy texts from ancient times, etc. Therefore their own qualifications are based on their own perspective and relative to begin with. The argument, 'You haven't read enough on it!' means very little when even the greatest authorities on the topic also cannot 'read enough on it' and cannot possibly become irrefutable gatekeepers of their subject.
Or _____________________________________________________________________
| This article or section requires revision to improve readability. |
Myers is famous for his "courtier's reply" refuting the common claim that only clergy and theologians are qualified to analyze faith questions.<ref>PZ Myers, [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/24/the-courtiers-reply "The Courtier's Reply"], ''Pharyngula'', 24 December 2006.</ref> Critics claim only clergy and theologians understand the necessary technical jargon and other relevant material well enough so they can understand religious work and make relevant comments. A good example is the way critics treat what Myers' buddy Richard Dawkins says and writes in the course of his atheist activism. Many people suggest Dawkins as an evolutionary biologist does not have the authority to criticize faith. Proxima Centauri (talk) 13:12, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
The courtier's reply points out that theologians must consider their own qualifications as well. Theology is such a vast field even experts cannot master the whole of it. Theologians cannot possibly read all the related material by other theologians, cannot become unparalleled authority on holy texts from ancient times, etc. Therefore their own qualifications are based on their limited knowledge and are inevitably relative. The argument, 'You haven't read enough on it!' means very little when even the greatest authorities on the topic also cannot 'read enough on it' and cannot possibly become irrefutable gatekeepers of their subject.
Myers uses the popular Hans Christian Anderson story The Emperor's New Clothes. In his sequel people are told that the king is not actually naked, and anyone stating this is just ignorant of the many volumes written about royal fashion. Meanwhile the townsfolk can plainly see the King's genitals and can well make their own judgement based on what they observe. Scientists and New Atheists can test the existence of God as a scientific hypothesis without reading every imaginable book on the subject or considering every established theological angle. They are discussing evidence, qualified scientists and others who understand the scientific method can test whether there is evidence for God. Similarly the eyes of the townsfolk were enough to recognize that their King was naked.
- Mine. The second one is a confused jumble. The concept is clear and doesn't require a blow-by-blow of a fairy tale to illustrate it. If you really want to nod to the fairy tale, include a link to the original in the external links section. TeenageWasteland (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Addendum: the summary in the Courtier's Reply article ("like telling the child in the fable to study haute couture before he can properly discuss whether the Emperor is naked") does in 21 words what your block paragraph doesn't--summarizes the story in a clear, relevant and on-point manner. TeenageWasteland (talk) 13:24, 6 May 2014 (UTC)