Talk:Point refuted a thousand times
Is it worth actually adding the refutations? I mean, yes, the point is that they've been done "a thousand times" already, but still, we should put some decent reading in.
d hominem 13:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
As should be expected, I feel uncomfortable about the political jabs here. (I also have a shrewd idea who may have inserted them, although I did not check so far.) How do you define communism and libertarianism? How do you define viable in the area of political philosophies? Is it really so easy to demonstrate that libertarianism or communism "do not work", if that is what is supposedly meant, as faith healing, for example? Work by what criteria? Who says that you get to define the criteria? Political ideologies have to be treated differently than factual claims about the natural world and do not make much sense as examples here. --Mintman 12:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, that's what I thought as well. It's never been refuted that I'm aware of (at least not "a thousand times") that certain political stances are "wrong". This is for stuff like "there are no transitional fossils" "mutation can only decrease information" and so on.
d hominem 12:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
- I got 50% on the "Who inserted the political jibe" test. I agree those should come off, but I don't think there's a need for the refutation to be included on this page - they all link to pages that describe the refutation in some detail. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 13:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
- Ah yes, now I also looked it up. The communism was very much as expected, and I guess the libertarianism item was inserted as retaliation? --Mintman 19:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Can a 'prat-fall' be incorporated into the article? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 17:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- A what??
d hominem 17:45, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Colloquial term - 'slipping on banana skin' etc: sometimes used in the context of slapstick humour. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I have just one question. Are you actually being serious? --Danfly (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
PRATT/Prat minor wordplay silliness. 212.85.6.26 (talk) 16:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Bullshit: not minor, nor silliness. By repeatedly associating a commonly debunked notion (PRATT) with a colloquial word (prat) for hind end, ass, butt and so on, those debunked notions are framed as objects of mockery. Such framing is an effective tool for shaping perception, and hence shaping public opinion. The authoritarian "conservative" message machine has been making effective use of this technique for at least thirty or forty years now, and it's well past time teh progressive folks consolidated their impedimenta for a similar effort. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 14:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
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[edit] Eh?
"Liberal theology is wrong because it caused an alteration in moral attitudes to make them incompatible with conservative moral codes (e.g., the Wedge Document)."
I don't get it or understand it at all. What does e.g., the wedge document have to do with the former sentence and what does that former sentence have to do with anything?
d hominem 15:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Having looked at the document's goals, I can see where LX was coming from: 'To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies'. Essentially, they say materialism is bad because it denies (or is incompatible with) objective moral standards). Come to think of it, it probably should have been kept in that form... --Danfly (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
[edit] What about the creation of universe.
Atheists (like me) maintain that the universe has been never creatd (in agreement with our faith that nothing can be created without energy, from which it may be "created", already existing), therefore the universe existed always (not my original thought but Carl Sagan's). For about a century we have a scientific theory to support this claim (theory of relativity by Einsteins) but most folks believe that it is impossible to exist without being created and so the universe had to be created "somehow" (favored word of mystics) in the past and consider therefore the Big Bang hypothesis a legitimate scientific "theory" (even is it contradict5s their own definition of scientific theory and not understanding Big Bang physics and math a bit, as they redily admit).
Since there is a certain probability that atheists, especially those studying seriously physics and astronomy for many years (like me) may be right, shouldn't this issue be debated at least once? Without assuming that those who understand relativity and that certain cosmologists attempt to push their creationist theory of Big Bang (as most physicists and all atheists, except crypto creationists, do) are wrong and should be considered cranks? The question, between others, addressed to Śnieżnej Dziewczyny (Polish translation of Puellanivis in proper case which Polish has 7 in singular and 7 in plural, the 1st being "Śnieżna Dziewczyna" pronounced sh'niezhna zhievchina :) JimJast (talk) 13:08, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa.
Тysic semper 13:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Ty, what's "evil fundie"? Would it be a "fundamentalist", but why were you "evil"? JimJast (talk) 13:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- This should explain everything. Jack Hughes (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Ty, what's "evil fundie"? Would it be a "fundamentalist", but why were you "evil"? JimJast (talk) 13:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
[edit] anti-Pratt
What might we call a fundie disregarding something well-established that isn't a refutation of anything in particular? I'm thinking here of, for example, Keynesian being a conservative snarl word, though Keynes' theories are demonstrably sound and accepted by anyone who understands economics. Do we have a page for this? — Unsigned, by: ShorinBJ / talk / contribs
- Denialism? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 07:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
[edit] accuracy of claim?
"In the UK where legalisation of same-sex marriage has been considered by the Conservative government, those in opposition repeatedly argue that its legalisation will result in the Church of England being forced to perform gay weddings despite opposing the practice. It has been pointed out to the anti-gay marriage lobby repeatedly that this will not occur; however, as they clearly have no better arguments at their disposal, it is repeated over and over again."
Is this accurate? European and Canadian anti-discrimination law already has a precedent for broad consideration of discrimination laws. In Canada the Human Rights Commissions have penalized people for religious opposition to homosexuality. Is there anything within the UK legal system that would prevent the Church from being forced, under anti-discrimination laws, from performing gay weddings?Gwia? (talk) 04:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
[edit] "Members of marginalized groups who claim oppression exists are just playing the victim card where there is no real victimization."
How I decode that sentence after insufficient caffeine: "There are marginalized people who are sometimes just playing the victim card." Would whoever wrote that like to say a few words about why they feel the need to make that point, and what that point is doing in an article about people who rely on tired, old,long-debunked arguments to justify their belief systems. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 17:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- WE as RW do not feel the need to make that point. The way the whole super section is formatted, we have to state a PRATT (as in, a point we want to refute) first, in bold, then try to describe the people who put forward this PRATT (or try to refute it) in an indented passage below said bolded statement. Nullahnung (talk) 17:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- EC --> Never mind. It's not a claim, it's an example of a PRATT. My bad. That said, I think it's way too vague, and would read better if it were phrased not as unspecified "marginalized groups" and "oppressions," but in terms of specific PRATTS actually harnessed vs. specific groups. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 17:20, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly. It's a common one we encouter in the wild. ·FemiliskFU 17:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I intended my original entry to cover a broader base of things than just "playing the victim card" type PRATTs, but instead to cover the general attitude of talking over oppressed people in every way shape and form. There have been thousands of articles and books etc about oppression and what is and isnt oppressive and why. And almost every argument with is is literally a point we have refuted thousands of times. But im super tired and perhaps this is what its still saying idk. --Laurelai (talk) 17:47, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry but I think it's far too vague and general to be counted as a PRATT. If somebody says that all women/gays/minorities/whatever are just playing the victim, sure, that's ridiculous. But I don't think that comes up very often. Individual cases where a person or group is accused of playing the victim are best judged on their own merits. A lot of the time it may be a smear or a canard, but there certainly are cases where people play their "victim" status to their advantage, use it to avoid personal responsibility, or to frame dialogue disingenuously (e.g. framing all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism, framing all criticism of Islam as Islamophobia). Then there's the issue of which groups are genuinely marginalised, oppressed or victimised. E.g. conservative Christians claim that they are a marginalised group & are victimised by laws which increasingly force them to treat LGBT people equally which is contrary to their own personal beliefs. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good point. Is it better now that Vivian made it more specific? (We may need to actually put some examples of people saying such things as references, though.) Nullahnung (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure that the section relates to those derailments by religious groups, at least in the current format --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:39, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good point. Is it better now that Vivian made it more specific? (We may need to actually put some examples of people saying such things as references, though.) Nullahnung (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry but I think it's far too vague and general to be counted as a PRATT. If somebody says that all women/gays/minorities/whatever are just playing the victim, sure, that's ridiculous. But I don't think that comes up very often. Individual cases where a person or group is accused of playing the victim are best judged on their own merits. A lot of the time it may be a smear or a canard, but there certainly are cases where people play their "victim" status to their advantage, use it to avoid personal responsibility, or to frame dialogue disingenuously (e.g. framing all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism, framing all criticism of Islam as Islamophobia). Then there's the issue of which groups are genuinely marginalised, oppressed or victimised. E.g. conservative Christians claim that they are a marginalised group & are victimised by laws which increasingly force them to treat LGBT people equally which is contrary to their own personal beliefs. Wèàšèìòìď
- I intended my original entry to cover a broader base of things than just "playing the victim card" type PRATTs, but instead to cover the general attitude of talking over oppressed people in every way shape and form. There have been thousands of articles and books etc about oppression and what is and isnt oppressive and why. And almost every argument with is is literally a point we have refuted thousands of times. But im super tired and perhaps this is what its still saying idk. --Laurelai (talk) 17:47, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly. It's a common one we encouter in the wild. ·FemiliskFU 17:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- EC --> Never mind. It's not a claim, it's an example of a PRATT. My bad. That said, I think it's way too vague, and would read better if it were phrased not as unspecified "marginalized groups" and "oppressions," but in terms of specific PRATTS actually harnessed vs. specific groups. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 17:20, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
I've included some simple refutation of the supposed PRATTs provided by Vivian, but it feels like I'm just beating up a strawman with regards to the jim crow/barack obama argument. Who actually says that? (I believe I've seen the PRATT about rape culture put forward before, but not the one with Obama/Crow) Nullahnung (talk) 18:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I probably run into the rape culture argument online on a weekly basis, not so much the Obama one though --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Come to post-racial America, where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 18:56, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's depressing to read, at least the sources used are mostly skeptical --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Aaaand I unapologetically copied a source from Wikipedia for our article. Nullahnung (talk) 19:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)Nvm, doesn't fit. Nullahnung (talk) 19:05, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's depressing to read, at least the sources used are mostly skeptical --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Come to post-racial America, where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 18:56, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Laffer Curve
Two complaints about the section on the Laffer Curve, from an economics undergrad - 1. "Despite this, the Laffer curve is still held in high regard..." seems to imply that there is no Laffer curve, which is obviously false. If tax rates were 110%, tax revenue would be zero, since working would end up costing you money. The point that all my macroeconomics professors made wasn't that the curve is wrong, it's that every country is currently on the "good side" of the curve, so cutting taxes necessarily lowers revenues.
2. It would really be best to remove the references to "supply-side economics" and the Laffer curve in two. The Laffer curve is considered a correct theory, just misapplied. Supply-side economics, on the other hoof, is too broadly-defined to really be right or wrong. You could say "dogmatically focusing only on supply and ignoring demand is bad economics" or "Reagan's supply-side policies, overall, cannot be credited with the majority of the economic gains made by America during his administration" and still be in line with the vast majority of economists. But for instance, "burning down all factories will lead to a short-term reduction in output" would be a supply-side viewpoint, and that's obviously correct. I think it would be best to describe it as "incomplete" rather than "incorrect". So the only PRATT is "supply-side economics is capable of explaining every economic phenomenon ever observed", which is so stupid that I sincerely hope nopony has ever had to refute it.
I don't know how to say either of these in the article itself, unfortunately. — Unsigned, by: 162.157.208.187 / talk / contribs