Talk:Race/Archive1

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I feel that the Section on race vs. species is slightly incorrect. While it is true that there is only one species of humans,I think that it could be agrued that there are subspecies of humans. The actual biological useage of the word race seems to apply to humans in much the same way that the social useage does. Thats just my opinion though, I don't know if taxonomist would agree. — Unsigned, by: 76.123.226.199 / talk / contribs

You're an idiot. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
based on the definition of subspecies I found, morphological differences and geographical seperation, you could argue that Negroid,Caucasian, Asian, Arab and Mongol would be subspecies of human. Hamster (talk) 16:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Wrong. See WP:Human taxonomy. There are subspecies of humans - or rather, there were throughout the history of human evolution - but Caucasian, "Mongoloid", "Negroid", etc. aren't among them, since they all belong to the subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens. Modern biologists basically reject the concept of races as subspecies, & many reject the concept of race altogether. WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 16:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I believe one of the problems with "race" as a biological construct is that there is more differentiation within a race than between them. In other words, I as a "Caucasian" person may be closer, genetically, to a "Mongoloid" than to another "Caucasian". Researcher (talk) 16:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
That is Lewontin's Fallacy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_diversity:_Lewontin's_fallacy Come on RationalWiki, I expected better of you then to parrot the pseudoscientific social constructivist garbage that social "science" professors are still blathering on about since the 1960s (and since the advent of neuroscience in the 90s and research on mitochondrial DNA, it goes to show that these people are far less concerned about science and more so about defending the failed positions that landed them jobs some decades ago). — Unsigned, by: 99.43.15.141 / talk / contribs
Whether social constructivism is garbage or not, one does not need to be a social scientist to perceive that the old concepts of "race" are far from adequate for describing the complexity of the genetic variations in question. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 18:40, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
I remember in High school we had a section in Social Studies on the various human races. Now it would probably be left out. Hamster (talk) 17:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Racism. Really?

While I tend to agree with most of the assertions on this page... one that is just staggeringly jaw-droppingly wrong is the assertion that most racists are "White." WHAT???? Whomever wrote that obviously has never been outside of the United States or whatever mostly-"white" country they inhabit.

The US gets a bad rap for being racist, when the fact of the matter is virtually every single other country in the entire world is FAR more racist than the USA is. I know. I've lived in many of them. Chinese and Korean people are obscenely racist. Indians are abhorrently racist. Arabs are phenomenally racist. Africans are outrageously racist. Latinos in Latin American countries are appallingly racist. In all of these places the racism is usually right out in the open and in your face. It's treated very matter-of-factly like it's just the way it's supposed to be. Few people care or even try to change things. Those who live in the US and think that it's bad there and imagine the rest of the world to be enlightened are horribly naive.

Even if it was true that the only racists in the USA were "White"... and it soooo IS NOT: I know plenty of "African-Americans" who hate "White" and Asian people, plenty of Asian-Americans who hate everybody, etc... but even if it was true... then the fact remains that every country in the world has racists in it, and virtually every single one of them suffers racism far worse than anything you would see in the US. "White" people are a minority of the population of the world, and therefore the statement that most racists are "White" is, so far, the stupidest thing I've read on this website.

I guess I will edit it... I'm not sure what protocol is on this site.. if someone is going to change it later or if it has to be approved or I have to be registered or whatnot.. but whatever I'll give it a shot. As it is it's just stupidly stupidly stupidly wrong. Totally irrational. And actually racist itself. Judging by the rest of what is often written here I guess it's not important if I have citations... so here goes.. — Unsigned, by: . 68.84.138.107 / talk / contribs

You're totally right about the race thing, but I think the article was written from a US/UK-centric point of view, where most racists are white, and so it was implicitly referring to white racists - the point wasn't that most racists are white, it's that most white racists aren't really "white" in a technical sense of white. ThunderkatzHo! 08:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

okay I edited it. you guys can change it back if you want. I also removed two bits in the section "Racism" and I'll explain why below. Chiefly, they're both silly. 1. I tried to edit the bit about "White" racists not really being white, and only albinos being white, so that it would make sense. But this was impossible. It's just silly to note this.. I mean.. technically there are no truly black people, either. Just dark brown. The labels are silly and arbitrary, and that much is established earlier in the article. No point bringing it up a second time. 2. I deleted the part about "White" racists identifying as Aryan, without any reason for doing so. This is also silly. Actually the so-called Aryan race probably did migrate to Europe. And they are not from the "Middle East" as claimed previously, and they do have features commonly associated with "White"ness... light skin.. light colored eyes. Ever wonder why they have the term Indo-European languages and people? Because Europeans actually did (largely) come from this region.. to the north of the Indus valley.— Unsigned, by: . 68.84.138.107 / talk / contribs

Our IP editor makes a good point. I remember striking up a conversation once with a dark skinned lady once on a train in the UK and I asked her if she felt much discrimination there. She said that there was quite a bit but that she came from Singapore and that her ethnic group suffered from a lot more racism there and so she was quite used to it. She seemed amazingly relaxed about it - as though it was quite natural.
I've also spoken to English teachers who work in Japan who tell me that they are subject to racism there. So I'm sure it's all over.--BobSpring is sprung! 10:38, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually the highest proportion of reported racist incidents in the UK occur between South Asians, usually Indians and Pakistanis. Darkus Howe did an excellent programme on C4 about non-white racism in the UK... he also profiled West Indian/Caribbean hatred against Somalis. The OP is right, racism is rife amongst non-whites, in fact I consider it a universal problem. In the developed world, Japan is one of the worst offenders.-Albannach (talk) 12:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Sickle cell

Mediterranean and south east asian populations don't have sickle cell. It's called thalassemia and it's a totally unrelated blood disease with sometimes similar symptoms (in the major, more extreme form). From wikipedia: "Thalassemia is a quantitative problem of too few globins synthesized, whereas sickle-cell disease (a hemoglobinopathy) is a qualitative problem of synthesis of an incorrectly functioning globin. Thalassemias usually result in underproduction of normal globin proteins" — Unsigned, by: 95.199.7.224 / talk / contribs

No, I think both have increased incidence. See here. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Is this article a parody?

Its hard to take it serious, Seriously, race denier loons are as crackpot as creationists. Boglin (talk) 01:00, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you will find that most scientists believe race is a construction. "race" in any workable sense, does not exist.Green mowse.pngGodotL'important c'est d'aimer 02:01, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
What? Geographical races (subspecies) are a biological reality as recognised in all species, here are some papers on the different races in Maize:
  • Relationships among the Mexican Races of Maize

J. J. Sanchez G., M. M. Goodman Economic Botany, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1992), pp. 72-85

  • Appropriate Characters for Racial Classification in Maize Appropriate Characters for Racial Classification in Maize

J. J. Sánchez G., M. M. Goodman, J. O. Rawlings Economic Botany, Vol. 47, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1993), pp. 44-59

Humans are no different, there are different subspecies (races) within Homo Sapiens. Boglin (talk) 15:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

then show us the science about humans rather than maize. In the meantime, since you seem to equate people with maize, it shall please me to consider you a Popol Vuh literalist. SophieWilder 19:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Can you not read? Subspecies (races) are found in all species, they are not limited to Homo Sapiens. Here is what Ernst Mayr (2002) states: "Let me begin with race. There is a widespread feeling that the word "race" indicates something undesirable and that it should be left out of all discussions. This leads to such statements as "there are no human races." Those who subscribe to this opinion are obviously ignorant of modern biology. Races are not something specifically human; races occur in a large percentage of species of animals. You can read in every textbook on evolution that geographic races of animals, when isolated from other races of their species, may in due time become new species. The terms "subspecies" and "geographic race" are used interchangeably in this taxonomic literature." [emphasis added] [1] So why aren't you race denier crackpots denying different races in other species exist? You only employ a double standard when it comes to Humans, merely through a socio-political bias. Boglin (talk) 02:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Au contrere, mon frere, it is you who has the reading comprehension problem. From the article: "DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans." -Human Genome Project info. So, what will be the next move? HGP is in the pocket of Big Political Correctness? Invocation of "Lewontin's Fallacy"? Cites to Rushton or Lynn? Let me get out my bingo card. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:42, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
The article is simply incorrect. You do realise there are countless Genome projects that support the biological reality of race? The Indian Genome Variation initiative run by India's largest research developer (CSIR) for example recogises the existence of 4 Human subspecies (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Australoid, Negritid) in India. So what will your next move be? Boglin (talk) 04:29, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Citizen, I ask again that, if you say there are "countless" genome projects about race, that you please provide us with what and where they are. Time is of the essence, citizen! Robot Opera Singer Who Fights Crime (talk) 10:19, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
That's nice, but go away. --Mikal Harass Follow 04:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Excellent point, Mikal. — Unsigned, by: 97.90.19.182 / talk / contribs 2013-01-06T23:28:45
Troll Theory of Practice "the standards of the site are ultimately an expression of the community makeup, and not a set of rules or policies." 15:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Please run through the HGPs reasoning for this assertion rational ones. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 10:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Please bear in mind Tang 2005, Coop 2009 and HUGO 2009 when formulating your response. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 10:15, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Troll Ochotonaprincepsnot a pokémon 10:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] An article on race by some actually rational people

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Race

There's so much nonsense in this PC garbagefest I don't know where to begin. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 09:06, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ha. Eat shit, you racist coward. Ochotonaprincepsnot a pokémon 09:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
That's how you think isn't it? Is it true? Who cares! So long as it's not "racist" (whatever that means in your small brain). Rational my ass. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 10:03, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Citizen, I encourage you to provide proof as to where we have erred. I see you are regurgitating racist mumbo-jumbo, but I ask you to instead look for actual scientifically accepted and proven facts to back up what that metapedia site is laying claim to. Of course, you and I both know that will never happen. Robot Opera Singer Who Fights Crime (talk) 10:15, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
The metapedia article has more up to date scientific references than yours. Try reading it. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 10:18, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Citizen, I read that article. None of what it purports has any scientifically-backed basis. Once again, I want raw data and research, not just links to articles from some other (apparently racist) site. Time is of the essence, citizen. We need to proof as fast as you can give it to us. Robot Opera Singer Who Fights Crime (talk) 10:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Now you are simply lying. "Rationalwiki", what a joke. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 11:03, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
BoN is not here to have an actual discussion. Troll Ochotonaprincepsnot a pokémon 11:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
No, you came here to start this discussion, you bring the proof to us. This isn't Metapedia, this is RW. Ochotonaprincepsnot a pokémon 10:20, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
"But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! SophieWilder 10:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Poo, you beat me to it, Sophie. Anyway, BoN, run along back to Skinheadpedia and tell them how you owned us. Ochotonaprincepsnot a pokémon 10:14, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

[edit] The only reasoning in this article is the "single gene" fallacy

" What arguments do these experts make? First, they harp on the fact that there is no single gene or (small) set of genes unique to any racial group. They suggest that two members of the same race may differ from each other more at a specific gene locus than they do from someone of a different race. In other words, at some small part of their genomes, a person can appear more similar to some people of other races than to some people of his own race. This is true, but meaningless.

This argument implies that if, for any particular genes or traits, two family members are less like each other than to a complete stranger, then "family does not exist, and family is an illusion." Let us imagine two full brothers: Joe and Ted. Joe has brown eyes, brown hair and has blood group O. Ted has blond hair, blue eyes, and blood group B. Hans, who is a complete stranger to Joe and Ted, also happens to have blond hair, blue eyes, and blood group B, just like Ted. If we look at only these traits, Ted is more closely related to Hans than to his brother Joe. Does this, then, invalidate the concept of family?"

http://www.freewebs.com/yggsoc/archives/denial.html 112.160.35.80 (talk) 11:28, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

And even if this were a valid argument, there are unique racial genes as demonstrated by Coop 2009. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 11:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Technically, BoN, your genetics in your body right now are not the same as when you were born, thanks to telomere shortening. How granular do you want to get in terms of genetic differences? Ochotonaprincepsnot a pokémon 11:52, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Does that invalidate genetic classification? Of course not, Lysenko. 112.160.35.80 (talk) 11:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
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