Talk:Racialism
[edit] According to Youtube, spawktalk destroyed this article. [HIS RESPONSE TO RATIONALWIKI AND ZAUNSTAR]
http://spawktalk.blogspot.com/2014/07/to-zaunstar-on-race-intelligence-and.html
Any contenders to debunk this drivel? I'm a 2 year genetics student but I'm far too busy to do any thorough research into his citated links and whatnot. He also included a citation from Rushton postulating that there's a causal link between darker melanin and aggression. Aka, the more black you are the higher your aggression is. Much appreciated if someone is brave enough to counter-attack his video because as of now it stands on solid ground for scientific rigor.— Unsigned, by: Pentrazemine / talk / contribs
[edit] More sock IPs from mentally ill race troll Mikemikev
1.233.193.52 [[1]] and virtually all the other sock IP on this page since January, 2015 are Mikemikev. They all trace to the same South Korean ISP from Seoul.
- https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Mikemikev
- http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Saloon_bar/Archive234#Race_trolling_on_RW
Mike is also impersonating people on this website, including anti-racists. He does this on other sites as well:
http://www.mootsf.com/index.php?/topic/8144-racist-images/ Dust77 (talk) 11:12, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] The "original" skin color wording issues
"Lighter-skinned people could absorb more vitamin D from the Sun, giving them an evolutionary advantage." should be reworded, as the sun does not produce the vitamin D. 62.178.89.78 (talk) 23:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks, it should be fixed. You seem wiki-competant, have you considered making an account?--TiaC (talk) 00:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] A short note
I'm the one who added the note on megalencephaly some time ago. I think it's also worth noting that although brain size is normally not a factor in intelligence, having microcephaly does have a very negative effect on cognitive abilities. So basically, noting that while the extreme ends of brain size are relevant to intelligence, anything in between is not. 24.186.49.177 (talk) 06:35, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- If someone would be kind enough to add this somewhere, it'd be great; it's quite understandably locked down at the moment. 24.186.49.177 (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Any takers... ? 24.186.49.177 (talk) 22:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- If someone has a problem with noting this, just say so. 24.186.49.177 (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oh sorry, I keep seeing this and going "I'm not sure how much I care about the relevance of this claim" but feel it's rude to dismiss a good-natured edit in that way. So I keep on hoping someone else will take care of it. Sorry 'bout that. At any rate, the point you're trying to make is that using brain size in any way is medically naive? Ikanreed (talk) 21:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- Basically, yes. It's only the very extreme ends (microcephaly and megalencephaly) of brain size that directly impact intelligence, which we can acknowledge may seem counterintuitive if you're unfamiliar with neuroscience. Don't mind the wait, just wasn't sure if there was an issue I was missing. 24.186.49.177 (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, then, got an exact wording to use? Ikanreed (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm thinking something like this, after the sentence on Neanderthals; "It is only when a person has an extremely small brain, as with conditions such as microcephaly[wp], that absolute brain size has any negative impact on cognitive functions." 24.186.49.177 (talk) 23:29, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, then, got an exact wording to use? Ikanreed (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- Basically, yes. It's only the very extreme ends (microcephaly and megalencephaly) of brain size that directly impact intelligence, which we can acknowledge may seem counterintuitive if you're unfamiliar with neuroscience. Don't mind the wait, just wasn't sure if there was an issue I was missing. 24.186.49.177 (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oh sorry, I keep seeing this and going "I'm not sure how much I care about the relevance of this claim" but feel it's rude to dismiss a good-natured edit in that way. So I keep on hoping someone else will take care of it. Sorry 'bout that. At any rate, the point you're trying to make is that using brain size in any way is medically naive? Ikanreed (talk) 21:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- If someone has a problem with noting this, just say so. 24.186.49.177 (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Is it just me or is this too "soft"
It's been this way for a while, so I'm not blaming some specific edit here. As an example, the whole "usually but not always racist" tidbit seems like it's lobbing a softball for those denying their racism under the guise of "racialism" or whatever. Anyone else think this article's got a tone problem? Ikanreed (talk) 22:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Because not all of them are. Though most are, so 'usually' is appropriate. The very small/minuscule number of anti-racist racialist scientists still though exist. These are mostly non-hereditarian race realists i.e. those that argue races exist, but that there is no mental differences between them. There's a faction war within 'race realism' regarding this issue. Non-hereditarian racialists don't consider racial hereditarians to be genuine race realists. Instead they regard them to be neo-Nazis or white supremacists. In 2013, Metapedia was attempted to be changed into a non-hereditarian race realism project to be taken more serious. However the neo-Nazi clowns (e.g. Mikemikev, Upplysning) there didn't want this. But anyway, i'm not a non-hereditarian racialist. That was my position now years back. I accept the consensus human races don't exist whatsoever. There is no evidence for races. So the non-hereditarian vs. hereditarian race realism issue no longer bothers me. The distinction however needs to be pointed out because the non-hereditarian racialists are actually rather sane, respectable scientists. It is just that they are wrong, rather than them being bigots, Jerry Coyne is a good example. Coyne argues that human races exist, but he's an anti-hereditarian, he's has strongly criticized Nicholas Wade's book on race. Dust77 (talk) 22:37, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Do these "non-hereditarian racialists" you're talking about actually self-identify as racialists? Any examples? ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Do these "non-hereditarian racialists" you're talking about actually self-identify as racialists? Any examples? ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ
- Yeah, I'd still prefer others to weigh in. I gleaned from the context of your recent edits that you were okay with this phrasing. Ikanreed (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- (EC x 2) Yeah. It might be best to roll back to this version, before all that weirdness happened, & go from there. Some of Dust77's edits might be worth incorporating somewhere, e.g. a section on hereditariansism. But as things stand now - claiming that not all racialists and racist - it's pretty awful. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:42, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- This work? Cømrade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 23:07, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Hell no. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:10, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Hell no. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
- This work? Cømrade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 23:07, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- (EC x 2) Yeah. It might be best to roll back to this version, before all that weirdness happened, & go from there. Some of Dust77's edits might be worth incorporating somewhere, e.g. a section on hereditariansism. But as things stand now - claiming that not all racialists and racist - it's pretty awful. Щєазєюіδ
- Yeah, I'd still prefer others to weigh in. I gleaned from the context of your recent edits that you were okay with this phrasing. Ikanreed (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Are you saying all 'race realists' are racists? This obviously isn't true. The majority are, but not all. The racist vs. non-racist distinction is found in the hereditarian and non-hereditarian divide I mentioned: "Furthermore, for some, but by no means all, biological racial realists, the existence of biological populations (and of the biologically grounded properties of their constituent individuals) explains and justifies at least some social inequalities (e.g., the 'hereditarians'; Jensen 1969; Herrnstein and Murray 1995; Rushton 1995; Lynn and Vanhanen 2002)." - Kaplan & Winther (2014)
Jerry Coyne argues human races exist, but he's not a racist/hereditarian (like Richard Lynn or Roger Pearson etc). Though admittedly non-racist "race realists" like Coyne are very rare. But its not accurate to claim all race realists are racists. Dust77 (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- We're not so much interested in covering the subject academically at arms length as we are discussing the profound, dangerous, pseudoscientific, and authoritarian claptrap that surrounds it. And given that so many racists are so inclined to fall on the "not racist but" train, presenting the honest case that the term is almost synonymous with racial hate groups and pretending racism is science, while ignoring bizarre edge cases is pretty okay. We don't lead our creationism article with hedging on non-religious creationists, even though they bizarrely exist. It's not an opposition to facts, but rather an opposition to overnuancing to soon that's driving my concerns here. Ikanreed (talk) 00:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Does Jerry Coyne self-identify as racialist? This was supposed to be an article about racialism, which - despite what everyone keeps insisting - is not synonymous with racial realism. Wëäŝëïöïď
Methinks it is a Weasel 00:30, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Not even slightly. He was one of the actual scientists who told Nicholas Wade to fuck off and stop quote-mining their research to support his racist bullshit. Attempting to smear Coyne in an attempt to soften this article is not the actions of a good-faith editor - David Gerard (talk) 11:33, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- What's the difference? Cømrade FυzzчCαтPøтαтø (talk/stalk) 00:46, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Does Jerry Coyne self-identify as racialist? This was supposed to be an article about racialism, which - despite what everyone keeps insisting - is not synonymous with racial realism. Wëäŝëïöïď
- I understand your concerns. "HBD" (Human Biodiversity) bloggers like JayMan and Hbdchick try to present themselves as non-racists and respectable or "neutral". However these people are all hereditarians and hardcore racists. JayMan and Hbdchick are obsessed with mental differences between races and believe in a race hierarchy. The distinction I was making is that the hereditarians are the racists, the non-hereditarians the non-racists. Its easy to tell who is who. I've met some racists or white supremacists who try to make out they are non-racist racial realists to gain more support and seem more objective, but as soon as you ask them stuff on interracial relations and so on you get their real racist views. A good example of this is the blogger "Racial Reality" who owns Anthroscape. He's trying to pass himself off as a non-racist and moderate 'race realist', but the guy has a toxic history of posting hardcore racism across the internet. Dust77 (talk) 00:44, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- "Racial realism", "racialism" and "racial natural populationism" are all synonymous terms. Kwame Anthony Appiah has stated: "Racialism is not, in itself, a doctrine that must be dangerous", but he then points out most (but not all) racialists are racists. There are also some dictionaries that distinguish between "racialism" and "racism". Anyway, going overboard and branding all "race realists" as racists doesn't help (despite the vast majority are, but there are genuine exceptions) and actually just plays into their hands because they then claim the anti-realist consensus on human races not existing is because of Marxism or political correctness. Dust77 (talk) 02:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- I will stick to the science, and will probably better expand the section on genetics and show why the modern genetic clustering arguments for races are false. If you also note, the resident troll here Mikemikev (and sites like Metapedia) only fixate on the genetic clustering. This has been described as the "new race realism" by Hochman (2013):
- "Racial realism", "racialism" and "racial natural populationism" are all synonymous terms. Kwame Anthony Appiah has stated: "Racialism is not, in itself, a doctrine that must be dangerous", but he then points out most (but not all) racialists are racists. There are also some dictionaries that distinguish between "racialism" and "racism". Anyway, going overboard and branding all "race realists" as racists doesn't help (despite the vast majority are, but there are genuine exceptions) and actually just plays into their hands because they then claim the anti-realist consensus on human races not existing is because of Marxism or political correctness. Dust77 (talk) 02:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
“”Support for the biological concept of race declined slowly but steadily during the second half of the twentieth century. However, debate about the validity of the race concept has recently been reignited. Genetic-clustering studies have shown that despite the small proportion of genetic variation separating continental populations, it is possible to assign some (geographically separated and not recently admixed) individuals to their (or their ancestors’) continents of origin, based on genetic data alone. Race naturalists have interpreted these studies as empirically confirming the existence of human subspecies, and by extension biological races. However, the new racial naturalism is not convincing. The continental clusters appealed to by race naturalists are arbitrary and superficial groupings, which should not be elevated to subspecies status. Moreover, the criteria applied to humans are not consistent with those used to define subspecies in nonhuman animals, and no rationale has been given for this differential treatment.
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- That's "Icelanders and Ashkenazi are genetic groups, 'Negroes' are not". It takes quite amazing quote-mining to call that "race realism", or to attempt to co-opt Jerry Coyne of all people to the label - David Gerard (talk) 11:34, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Heh, a Jewish group with "nazi" in the name. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 11:47, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] "Despite a common straw man argument from racialists..."
"no scientist denies that race captures some genetic or phenotypic variation within Homo sapiens, instead the consensus is that it does not capture enough of it, or capture it in a good enough fashion to justify the recognition of human races in taxonomy."
"Sesardic in 2013 documented a strawman deployed by Hochman which claimed that race naturalists believed in what he called a "strong" interpretation of race, some operationalisation of which captured all human variation. He also claimed that nobody disputed the "weak" interpretation, that race concepts are informative to some degree. Both claims are false.
- "Well, let’s see. Consider typical statements made repeatedly by leading racial constructionists that race is biologically "meaningless" (AAA, 1994; Fish, 2002, p. 138; Gould,✡ 1996, p. 379; Marshall, 1998, p. 654; Rose,✡ 2002; Schwartz, 2001), that "race as biology is fiction" (Smedley & Smedley, 2005), that "race is the phlogiston of our time" (Montagu,✡ 1964, p. xii ; similarly Hirschfeld,✡ 1998, p. 36), that "race" is a concept like unicorn (Fish, 2002, p. 138), that "the reality of human races is [ ... ] destined to follow the flat Earth into oblivion"( Diamond,✡ 1994 ; a similar claim is also made by physical anthropologist A. Goodman✡ in the 2003 PBS educational documentary "Race: The Power of an Illusion"), etc." (Sesardic 2013)" 1.227.149.41 (talk) 14:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
https://right.orain.org/wiki/Arguments_regarding_the_existence_of_races#.22Strong_interpretation.22_or_perfect_informativity_strawman 1.227.149.41 (talk) 14:43, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
That's Sesardic's straw man:
“”Sesardic states that his aim is merely to show that race is not “biologically meaningless,” but it is unclear what his target is here; the idea that ‘race’ has no biological correlate? No significant contributor to the debate defends this view. Sesardic attributes the claim that race is ‘biologically meaningless’ to Robert Schwartz... Schwartz argues that race is biologically meaningless only in the sense that it is too imprecise as a medical category.
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“” When social constructionists say that race is ‘biologically meaningless,’ they mean that racialized groups do not constitute subspecies. Race naturalists, however, interpret such phrases to mean that ‘race’ has no biological correlate, a position which is clearly mistaken.
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Sesardic justs sets up a straw man of Schwartz (who only denies race as a medical category, Schwartz himself describes the fact race captures small phenotypic differences, why does Sesardic not mention this?). Note also Montagu on his list. Montagu accepted there are genetic differences between populations, coining the term genogroup. "Race" obviously captures a small amount. No one has ever denies this. The whole Rightpedia page is just claims of "straw man" that don't even exist. It is actually Sesardic using those fallacious 'knock them down' arguments that no one subscribes to. Dust77 (talk) 15:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Say, perhaps you guys can tell me. Race is supposedly a phenotypic thing, right? Then how is the "white race" a thing when its definition is basically "can't be too dark or look too foreign" (which various people interpret in various ways)? How can I phenotypically distinguish between this mythical "white race" and everybody else with a light skin colour? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Rightpedia acknowledges that subspecies (races) do not exist in humans
"Race realists however have argued against the concept of subspecies applied to humans, simply because no populations are allopatric, or isolated enough. Populationists in contrast consider races to be dynamic, constantly changing populations by which differ in the frequency of their genes." [end quote on the 'arguments for races' page]
If you're not arguing for subspecies in humans, then what are you arguing for? As the current racialism page on RW points out: new concepts and definitions of race poorly resemble how race is applied to non-humans in the subspecies sense. If we are going to be objective about science, why do racialists treat non-humans and humans differently in this regard? No explanation is ever given. Sesardic never responded on this point when Hochman repeated this question to him like 4 times. Dust77 (talk) 19:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, I see you wrote that.[2] Thanks, I'll put in something correct. 1.227.149.35 (talk) 21:29, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Please point out anything else you've written in the article. It's invariably garbage that should be deleted. Thanks. 1.227.149.35 (talk) 21:35, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding "race being applied differently to humans", no I think a genotypic and/or phenetic similarity concept is standard Linnaean taxonomy as applied to animals. The race concept was originally cladistic and is now primarily similarity based, as in other animal taxonomy. Please don't reference your own strawmen when speaking for race realists. Thanks. 1.227.149.35 (talk) 21:39, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- lol. You aren't a race realist dumbass but a troll/loon (hence you are banned on all actual race realist sites). At least when I identified with race realism 2 years back I knew what it was; here is Spencer an actual academic race realist states:
"...no new racial naturalist tries to use genetic clustering results of human populations as evidence that humans have subspecies." - Spencer, Q. (2014). "The unnatural racial naturalism". Studies in History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical Sciences. 46: 38-43
It contrast you are a clown arguing for a position not even in the racial realism literature. By definition there are no subspecies (race) in humans (populations are not genetically differentiated enough, and excluding populations like the Samaritans and Amish, they aren't reproductively isolated enough). This is why race realists had to invent new theories and concepts and re-define race: ecotype, genetic clustering etc. Dust77 (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- From that Rightpedia page section: "Human races can have large genetic differences such as Sub-Saharan Africans are genetically closer to bonobos than other humans,[1][2] yet they are wrongly classified as the same species." This is totally false as you yourself probably know, it was added by A Wayatt Man (the guy who claims to be your buddy there but was posting about you and other Metapedia users at Encylopedia Dramatica the whole time on a secret account, leaking JuniusThaddeus details, Thaddeus even posted something like :"A Wayatt Man did a better job and was better company that Atlantid"). Secondly there's no valid arguments for races there at all. Here's what Dobzhansky said about predictive value: "Any apparent discontinuity may serve as a basis for construction of a natural classification" but he then cautions: "A classification is the more natural the larger is the number of discontinuities it subsumes in each division." So what Hochman (2013) states is true. Putative human races like "White", "Mongoloid" captures far too little variation to be recognized as a useful category in biological science. Dust77 (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Article finish
I'm done with the main page/article. All racialist claims for the existence of races have been dealt with. There are no abrupt genetic breaks/discontinuities between continents, and only 1.53% of genetic variation that shows a geographical pattern is not explained by geographical distance, i.e. 'clusters', but these only exist at the very local level. They don't support "Mongoloid", "White" etc.
Mikemikev has been trolling this site on hundreds of socks for years, but he isn't a real racialist/race realist (Metapedia even banned him). The arguments he's used here don't reflect what is even in the race realism literature (which I've dealt with). Any actual academic arguing for race like Spencer or Sesardic, would be embarrassed by him. I mean above he's linking Jewish stars to people's names in an attempt to discredit them. Anything Mikemikev writes should be totally ignored. Dust77 (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well done on your recent extensive adds - this article is shaping up really nicely, and with some polish will be a good go-to reference - David Gerard (talk) 10:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
So neither of you are going to challenge spalktalk's video/thesis on Race Realism? And all of those Rushton medical journal's displaying the innate aggression in those with darker skin color? That's too bad...I think I might have the time soon. — Unsigned, by: Pentrazemine / talk / contribs 23:50, 24 February 2015
- spalktalk is a white nationalist youtube blogger, not a scientist. His stuff has been debunked. And Rushton's research on skin colour is pretty irrelevant to the race debate. Even if he could demonstrate dark skin = innate aggression, how does this pertain to the existence/non-existence of human races? Dust77 (talk) 00:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
It might be useful to get a debunking of Metapedia's "Arguments regarding the existence of races", which has some pretty common ones. FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 01:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- Just written by a total idiot very similar to Mikemikev (the guy who wrote that also has an Enclopedia Dramatica entry like Mike, he's another high-profile troll). Note how he throws around the term "straw man" nearly every paragraph (also see Metapedia's page: race where this is used when no such straw man even exists). And his only source for this is Sesardic. However Sesardic has been debunked multiple time by Hochman. Look above where Mikemikev claimed there was a straw man, then read Hochman's debunking. lol. Anyway quoting Sesardic in no way helps "race realists". Sesardic's "race realism" is incredibly weak that it overlaps with social-constructionism about race. When Hochman asked Sesardic how many races there are, he responded thousands. He thinks race is just a population (e.g. English, Dutch Australian Aborigines, Amish). So Hochman doesn't even regard Sesardic's "race realism" to be "real". Dust77 (talk) 04:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your arguments are just the usual lame fallacies.
- https://right.orain.org/wiki/Arguments_regarding_the_existence_of_races#Impossibility_of_counting_races
- All you do is copy paste Hochman and ignore Sesardic's refutation. In short you are a liar. 115.92.163.135 (talk) 05:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- "5. Race counting An old argument that is often used to support social construc- tionism about race is connected with the question about the ‘‘true’’ number of human races. Hochman also thinks that this is amajor difficulty for the biologica l concept of race. For example, Neil Risch and his collabora tors talk about fivemajor continen tal races: Afri- cans, Caucasians , East Asians, PacificIslanders and Native Ameri- cans (Risch et al., 2002 ). But each of these fivegroups could be divided further into subgroups of different ancestry, which would apparently have agood claim to be also called ‘‘races’’. So, how many races are there really: 5, or perhaps 10, or maybe 25, or some other number? Suppose that none of these answers is intrinsically more plausible than any other. Would it follow from this that there is somethin g wrong with the idea that race is abiologica l concept? Not at all. Take, analogou sly, the classification of people into age groups: children, adolescents , young adults, middle-aged people, old peo- ple. This seems to be a perfectly valid and objective taxonomy, de- spite the fact that each of these fiveage groups could also be subdivided further, or that people could actually be classifiedinto age groups in a different way. But being just one of many ways to categorize people by age does not make the system fade into a realm of mere social constructions . In some sense it is odd that the objection based on the number of races keeps reappearing because Dobzhansky defused it already half a century ago: ‘‘Boyd has recognized five,and Coon, Garn, and Birdsell nine or thirty or thirty-two races. Does it follow that some of these classifications are necessarily wrong? No, all may be right’’ (Dobzhansky , 1962, p. 266 )."
- Claiming multiple levels of race defined by genotypic or phenetic similarity have different numbers, and that this invalidates the concept, is an obvious fallacy which could be used to attack any taxonomy. In short, you are an irrational lying fool. 115.92.163.135 (talk) 05:21, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- Right, which is why no biologist has trouble counting/distinguishing the number of subspecies in non-humans. Are there biologists claiming there are 20, 50, 400, or 9999 subspecies of Panthera tigris? Good luck finding those you clown. Sesardic just invents retarded/false straw man claims and then "straw man" becomes your buzzword. There is no straw man here at all, because subspecies (races) by definition are meant to have clearly demarcated boundaries. Humans fail this criterion & you are the pathological liar as always:
"It is critical to note that genetic differentiation alone is insufficient to define a subspecies or race... definitions require that genetic differentiation exists across sharp boundaries and not as gradual changes, with the boundaries reflecting the historical splits. These sharp boundaries are typically geographic, but not always." (Templeton, 2013) Dust77 (talk) 08:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- RW should lock these pages again, to stop Mikemikev trolling here. And I don't know why you still bother coming here Mike. You've been banned on hundreds of socks since 2011. It's a waste of your own time. Its also stupid you want to debate this when you admit you're a neo-Nazi, and you have an internet history logged at Encyclopedia Dramtica of extreme racism, and anti-Semitism. I mean your internet history is far too toxic for anyone to take you serious. Just a google of your name and it brings up you're a neo-Nazi. You've basically discredited yourself with your own online posts.Dust77 (talk) 09:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- Templeton is full of crap, a liar, and a PC clown. What does Templeton have to say about this.
- "A classic example of ring species was the Larus gulls' circumpolar species "ring". The range of these gulls forms a ring around the North Pole, which is not normally transited by individual gulls.
- RW should lock these pages again, to stop Mikemikev trolling here. And I don't know why you still bother coming here Mike. You've been banned on hundreds of socks since 2011. It's a waste of your own time. Its also stupid you want to debate this when you admit you're a neo-Nazi, and you have an internet history logged at Encyclopedia Dramtica of extreme racism, and anti-Semitism. I mean your internet history is far too toxic for anyone to take you serious. Just a google of your name and it brings up you're a neo-Nazi. You've basically discredited yourself with your own online posts.Dust77 (talk) 09:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- The European Herring Gull (L. argentatus argenteus), which lives primarily in Great Britain and Ireland, can hybridize with the American Herring Gull (L. smithsonianus), (living in North America), which can also hybridize with the Vega or East Siberian Herring Gull (L. vegae), the western subspecies of which, Birula's Gull (L. vegae birulai), can hybridize with Heuglin's gull (L. heuglini), which in turn can hybridize with the Siberian Lesser Black-backed Gull (L. fuscus). All four of these live across the north of Siberia. The last is the eastern representative of the Lesser Black-backed Gulls back in north-western Europe, including Great Britain.
- The Lesser Black-backed Gulls and Herring Gulls are sufficiently different that they do not normally hybridize; thus the group of gulls forms a continuum except where the two lineages meet in Europe." 61.38.24.140 (talk) 22:19, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- https://right.orain.org/wiki/Arguments_regarding_the_existence_of_races#Continuous_change_of_traits.2FClines
- All you do is parrot these fallacies and ignore the counter points. You are a mentally ill liar and have a grudge which is why you are here. 61.38.24.140 (talk) 22:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
It's not a race issue, but part of the species problem. Even read the Wikipedia link: "Ring species also present an interesting case of the species problem, for those who seek to divide the living world into discrete species." How exactly does this help you? You're the one who holds a discredited essentialist Medieval view that there are discrete/objective/"real" biological categories in nature.
“”I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given, for the sake of convenience… the term variety [race], again, in comparison with mere individual differences, is also applied arbitrarily - Charles Darwin, Origin of Species
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- Kimmo is using your exact same fallacious argument in the last few minutes [he's probably viewing your edits]:
http://en.metapedia.org/m/index.php?title=Arguments_regarding_the_existence_of_races&diff=390843&oldid=390690 " If arguing that this "proves" the non-existence of different human races, then the same argument can be used to "prove" the non-existence of different mammal taxonomic groups (such as different mammal species)." The answer is: Precisely. What an idiot. You two are both as stupid as each other. Do you think the species concept doesn't have the same problems?
And btw, none of the scientists I have ever quoted have claimed species, or races, must be absolutely clear-cut: they always acknowledge exceptions (hence there is a "species problem" in the first place) and hence they use terms such as "abrupt", "sharply discontinuous" and so on; Templeton: "sharp boundaries" rather than absolute, e.g. he accepts parapatric subspecies, with a narrow zone of hybridization between them. The old "perfectly discontinuous" straw man claim by Sesardic, is actually a straw man he invented himself. I realized this when I then went and then read Zack (2002) which is why I removed most of Sesardic's lies from Metapedia after checking. Dust77 (talk) 00:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)