Talk:Racialism/Archive1

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This is an archive page, last updated 15 April 2015. Please do not make edits to this page.
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[edit] What is racialism?

I don't agree with this. The entry on bigotry recognises that there is a distinction between prejudice (e.g. holding hostile views towards a race or group) & bigotry (acting on those views). Racialism goers several steps further: constructing & implementing an ideology based on racist bigotry (examples Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, Ku Klux Klan). But this entry suggests that anybody who sees a distinction between racism & racialism is themself a "racist wingnut". This does not necessarily follow. (NB. I am not defending racialism, racism or bigotry, but there is a recognised & important distinction between the terms). Weaseloid 09:06, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Rewrote it as per the above. Weaseloid 17:45, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

Er, wikipedia says racialism is the belif in diferences between the races. 122.105.221.214 06:26, 7 December 2008 (EST)

[edit] Anthropology Question

For example, racialist wiki Metapedia categorises races into "Caucasoid", "Negroid" and "Mongoloid".

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these terms that actual anthropologists use? I seem to remember reading that. --Paradox (talk) 20:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I doubt it. I doubt anthropologists even talk about race. A tidbit from the WP article I was redirected to from caucasoid: "The concept of a Caucasian race was developed around 1800. Today most scholars reject the concept because human genome studies have not demonstrated a precise genetic definition of Caucasian." ħumanUser talk:Human 00:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I believe those were terms used by actual anthropologists 50 years ago. I know I had a high school teacher (10 years ago) who used them, to a mostly black class. (They thought they got off best in terms of nomenclature.) Researcher (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Flynn effect real/relevant?

Lately it's been making rounds in the news that intelligence has dropped since the 19th century. --81.175.227.88 (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Links? And not to the Daily Fail, please.--ZooGuard (talk) 15:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

The FLR effect is not g-loaded. Read the special issue on it in Intelligence journal. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/01602896/41

As for the decline since Victorian times, see: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613000470

[edit] Oh God

This whole thing reeks of cognitive dissonance and outright obscurantism - The patently obvious idea that tens of thousands of years of genetic divergence should lead to some differences in both physiology and psychology is counteracted with a slew of comparisons to Nazi Germany, assertions that everyone who believes it is racist, and other cases of verbal diarrhea typical of someone presented with an uncomfortable fact. For a website specifically created to help people be more rational, this is just shameful. 130.56.71.53 (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Racialism is mainstream among researchers in the area. A survey from the 80's even showed that the plurality of experts agreed that race differences in g are partly genetic (cf. Snyderman, 1988).
I'm sorry what? researchers in what area? It's unclear if you are even referring to a geographic area or an area of study. --NonPerson (talk) 01:20, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

[edit] I understand this site has a leftist bias but..

I just find it nauseating you how can so vehemently defend evolution, yet deny subspeciation and taxonomical divisions within the human race. You people are delusional.

Odd. A quick scan of this article seems to show no denial that people can have genetic differences between each other. Or attempt to address speciation or taxonomical divisions in humans. I'm not sure what content here exactly you are objecting to. Anyway while I suppose human beings becoming multiple species is possible though quite unlikely at this point. for reasons I'll address shortly. As for taxonomical divisions I fail to see how there could be any when humans are one species. The ability of any two (fertile, different sexed) humans to interbreed shows this is the case.
Ok I promised I would mention people becoming different species. This is of course technically possible over long periods of time, speciation would probably require groups of humans to be isolated from one another ether by geography or something awful like anti-miscegenation laws(I'm a firm believer that people should be able to chose to marry for love). Geographic isolation is right out in today's world, and I don't think cultural isolation would last for more then a few hundred years which is no where near enough time for groups of people to become genetically incompatible. --NonPerson (talk) 01:12, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Merge race realism into this one?

I want to merge race realism (an already-obsoleting euphemism; "HBD" is this year's hotness) into this article; they cover pretty much the same stuff. Objections? - David Gerard (talk) 17:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

They're both substantial articles in their own right without much duplicate content (AFAIK), and are not entirely synonyms terms, so I don't think merging them would be ideal. It would mean either cutting a lot of content or creating a rather over-long article. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:44, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
They're pretty closely synonymous, though. It'd need to be a long article because it's a big topic. Furthermore, separate articles seems to say there's some substantive difference between the two, and there really isn't, just which term is for which time - David Gerard (talk) 10:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I've declared that a sub-article of this for now - David Gerard (talk) 18:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Hey um. I dont have enough expertise to debunk this argument. I need the help of someone smart.

Here it is. "The idea that a race must possess specific genes found only in that race and never in another race is a misconception. Racial differences are a result of patterns of differences in gene frequencies.” 10 fallacies of race denial Is this wrong, and why? I am baffled by most of the arguments in the vid but we can start on this one first.--prophetofreason 03:24, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a strawman. Here on PC wiki pretending we are "all equal" (except for evil White racist Christians) is less important than science.
See here: https://right.orain.org/wiki/Arguments_regarding_the_existence_of_races#Races_have_to_be_discrete_or_the_.22single_gene.22_fallacy 211.200.178.175 (talk) 02:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I love that juxtaposition. "That position you've presented is a strawman of my position. By the way, here's a strawman of the position I oppose." Deliciously ignorant. Herr FuzzyKatzenPotato (talk/stalk) 02:18, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Umm, no, this is from the article claiming races are based on a single gene: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png 211.200.178.175 (talk) 02:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
"Here on PC wiki pretending we are "all equal" (except for evil White racist Christians) is less important than science." Not a strawman, I'm sure. Herr FuzzyKatzenPotato (talk/stalk) 02:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Focus on that, because you won't get far on the article relevant scientific point. 218.48.233.23 (talk) 03:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Actually equivocation might be a worse problem in this conversation than strawmen. Landmartian (talk) 03:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Oh, so you wanted to discuss science? I'm sorry, I was thrown off by your clear hatred for this site and strawmanning of its contents. Herr FuzzyKatzenPotato (talk/stalk) 03:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Who, me? I just meant that "equal" can mean "identical" or "worthy of equal political rights". Landmartian (talk) 03:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Not you. Herr FuzzyKatzenPotato (talk/stalk) 04:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact you're just incapable of discussing the science, since the transparently false content on this Orwellianly named website could be debunked by a child. This is why you aren't discussing it, just skirting the question with side issues and falsehoods, and obviously being obnoxiously smug in classic chutzpadic fashion. 1.233.193.52 (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
http://zipmeme.com/uploads/generated/g1338964568942672395.jpg -BlackProg

[edit] Craniology and general article state

It is pretty clear that whoever wrote this article isn't quite on the up and up of the science here. For one thing, while crainology has frequently been criticized, and some of the very old stuff was, in fact, insane, head size and IQ actually correlate to about .15. Actual brain size studies indicate that if you use direct measures of the brain, the correlation is actually very strong - somewhere in the realm of .3 to .4. This is why IQ and height correlate - bigger people have bigger heads and bigger brains, but the correlation grows stronger the closer you get to actually directly measuring brain size. It is not really very surprising that brain size and intelligence are linked, but it is correct to say that brain size is not the sole factor in intelligence. Still, it explains a fairly large amount of the variation in intelligence. I think the article in general probably needs a revamp, though; a rant about racists is less helpful than understanding what is true, what is false, and what is not proven and what evidence exists. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:03, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Aren't height and IQ both strongly correlated to socio-economic status in childhood? Was that controlled for in this research? --TiaC (talk) 10:06, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. The article can be vastly improved. Not only is some of it not fully scientific, but it fails to respond to many racialist arguments. Herr FuzzyKatzenPotato (talk/stalk) 20:27, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Darwin

"Despite making occasional use of racist tropes in common currency at the time in his writing (e.g., use of the term "savages"), Darwin's On the Origin of Species and the subsequent Descent of Man undermined many of the arguments made by racialists by demonstrating that humans were one species.[35] Darwin specifically argued that there were no clear delineations between the races and that they graduated into each other in Descent of Man. In his personal life, he was also a staunch abolitionist."

No "racialist" denies any of this. 1.233.193.52 (talk) 05:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, many do. There was a whole movement on Twitter that basically said "SJW's/Liberals are Creationists" because of this same line of thinking. Own your shit bro.- BlackProg 5:31, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Homogeneous requirement

"The idea of large clusters of people that are principally homogeneous within and heterogeneous in-between in terms of genetic similarity — the latter being necessary to speak of distinct "races" — has no scientific basis and in fact there is evidence against it."

I'm not sure how homogeneous is defined here or why races require it. Can someone explain? You know there is more variation within chimps and humans than between them? What data is this statement based on? Is it just empty name calling? Is it another lame strawman? 1.233.193.52 (talk) 05:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Intermediate populations

"Once "intermediate" populations — people living between two greater geographical extremes — are included, you find genetic continuity, not discontinuities. Racial realists' proposed race-labeled genetic clusters all exclude "intermediate" populations; sampling and including such populations destroys any illusory genetic discontinuity."

Nothing in the reference supports this statement. No evidence has been provided "racialists" ignore mixed populations. Another lying strawman misrepresentation. Looking at this recent chart (not your map a single gene, LMAO) we can see greater discontinuity than continuity, considering the population numbers. I hope you can identify these populations. And even if there wasn't it would be a continuum fallacy. 1.233.193.52 (talk) 05:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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