Talk:Racism/Archive1

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Why can't you accept the scientific evidence that white people are superior to black people? 81.169.151.105 15:29, 2 December 2007 (EST)

God SINGULARITY and the academic taught singularity constitute great evils in the Cubic World of opposites - opposites hemispheres and Opposite sexes of humanity. --AKjeldsenGodspeed! 15:38, 2 December 2007 (EST)
In other words Don't feed the Troll--Bobbing up 15:40, 2 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Recent anthropology, however, have suggested an alternate theory based on geography.

Got some cites? PFoster 08:49, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

Its a copyvio silly. NEED PERCOCET NOW
From where? I checked several phrases from the text and nothing shows up on Google. You've got an accusation, make your case. --Kels 08:59, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
I just wrote it, and hadn't organized or anything or added cites yet. I'll do it right now ;).--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 09:45, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] History

This section seems very Euro-centric. After all both the Chinese and Japanese have thought themselves as superior to other "races". It seems to be an inherent trait of humans to think that their group is superior to those who are different (racially, politically and religiously). Just look at those people who claim that their religion is the one true faith (and therefore all the others are wrong), isn't that also a kind of racism? Europeans just happened to develop technologies that enabled them to impose their views on the rest. Redchuck.gif ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD member 08:57, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

It is pretty Eurocentric, I agree. But I was addressing what I felt was the most dominant form of racism and the one that has had the greatest impact: pro-white. I do start off by saying that it is everywhere, but when I tried to add more explication about that I felt like I was wandering from my point. I encourage you to add more. It truly is omnipresent. Japanese and Ainu, Mexicans and Nahuatl, and so on.
I don't happen to think religious centrism is racism. Because, um, it's not. There's a definition.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 09:48, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Japanese are pretty racist towards a lot of groups, actually. Look at how they traditionally treat Koreans. I like Japan a lot, but they've got some serious faults in that regard. --Kels 09:51, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
My primary criticism of that section is that it tries to draw conclusions much too far back in time. Especially: "For a thousand years, most people believed that the immensely disproportionate power and wealth of Europeans (and later Americans) was palpable proof that the white race was superior. After all, how could England have carved out an empire that spanned the continents from their tiny island, if their native intelligence or courage were not naturally superior?" The Europeans didn't have "immensely disproportionate power and wealth" and England didn't carve out an empire until the 17th-18th century. If anything, it was the Chinese who were disproportionately wealthy before that time. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 10:07, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
England specifically didn't carve out an empire until that time, but there was some "Rome" deal and a few successors before that. If anything, I didn't go anywhere near far enough back.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 10:13, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Rome? What does that have to do with racism? --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 10:20, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
You said The Europeans didn't have "immensely disproportionate power and wealth" previous to England. But most people who view things in racial terms consider Rome to be "white." It's often among examples of people who are trying prove the superiority of white people.
The section could probably use some rewriting, so feel free to fix problems you see, honest.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 10:28, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
However, between the end of Rome and the "rise of the West" (talking maybe 1500 CE), the West was most definitely NOT running things. This is why, out of 3 main Crusades in the "Holy Land", the first worked for awhile, and the other two were disasters. (And then the 4th Crusade gave the Turks an opening into Europe.) Even Rome, at its height, never came close to "running things." China was just as powerful, the various empires in subSaharan Africa were never even thought about...even known parts of the world (like India and Ethiopia) ignored the Romans. Researcher 10:20, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
It is perhaps due to the technological advances that later empires like the British had more influence over a geographically greater area; it seems fair to me to say that Rome was as influential and dominant as England would later be, even if from a cultural standpoint. There's good reason I hear Latin phrases used in modern Korea, after all.
There were immense empires in the Americas and Africa, sure. But because of the lack of some of the grains and other items that the Mediterranean-dwelling peoples possessed, they were never able to raise their per-capita production sufficiently. The number of people farming per city dweller starts very high, and only declines with advances, leading to much denser cities and correspondingly greater technology and diseases. Thus, even though Tenochtitlan was immense, it had to have virtually the entire country supporting it for the whole of its existence and still never progressed much compared to an empire like Rome.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 10:28, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Picking up on Japan again, a number of English teachers I have spoken to have told me that that there is significant prejudice against Europeans there. For example, they have been refused rented accommodation because it is apparently "not available" - when they know for a fact that it is. On the other hand this may be because of the deserved (?) reputation for drunken brawling and womanising that young male English teachers seem to have gained.
With regard to the "Racism in Religion section" I'm not quite sure what it's doing there. While races have differences (skin colour being the most evident), any suggestion of "racial superiority" is little more than insanity. Meanwhile, most religions are automatically exclusive - if one is right then others have to be wrong. Some members these take great (or sometimes violent) exception to other views. Others do not. But that's got nothing to do with racism.--Bobbing up 10:29, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Japan is extremely West-friendly for the most part, regardless of whatever anecdotes you hear. Certainly there is some racism and a lot of stereotypes (throughout Asia, many people consider westerners to be sex-obsessed), but there's a reason your friends were brought overseas to teach. Predominant racism would tend to argue that they wouldn't be shipping people in through JET as fast as they can bring them over.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 10:33, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

you wish. Im a white japanophile from Brazil and I look pretty western, theres always this feeling that the inhabitants hate you. Also I've heard some rather hateful things that Japanese people like to say about western people and even white peole in general. — Unsigned, by: 204.246.66.78 / talk / contribs

Bob--I think what the "religion" section is getting at is the question of how conflicts over religious beliefs can foster other types of hatred--like racismPFoster 10:38, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
OK, but in that case why not "Racism in politics", "Racism in gender differences" or "Racism in economics" - I don't really see the point of a special "Racism in religion" section. Anything can exacerbate anything if you let it.--Bobbing up 11:18, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
I agree, and would support the removal of those sections to the respective religion pages.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 11:23, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
However, between the end of the Roman Empire and the beginning of colonization, the Europeans were an insignificant backwater. To pretend that "for a thousand years" Europeans "ran things" is a gross oversimplification. (Latin phrases are known in Korea because the Western colonizers used them; not because Rome was THAT influential in its own time.) Researcher 10:44, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification, researcher--by the late Medieval/Early Renaissance the Euros were making their presence felt--still a ways off before colonisation. PFoster 10:48, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
It is an oversimplification, yes (although perhaps not a gross one). I was trying to state cogently and succinctly what I thought the general attitude was among proponents of white superiority, as gathered from personal experience and research in places like Stormfront. Latin phrases are used because Rome spread its influence over an enormous area (especially considering the time) and with such intensity that their culture - while gone for a millenium - is still evident.
I'm trying to compromise between pedantic historical accuracy about the broad strokes I am painting, which is admirable but rather long for a wiki article on racism, and being short and effective. I invite you to please improve on my efforts; I'm not a terribly clever guy, and am just fumbling out my best efforts.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 10:51, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
OK...misunderstanding then. I really thought you were trying to say that Europeans ran everything the whole time. Gotcha. And PFoster, while yes, Europe stopped being a complete backwater by the late Medieval, they still didn't start to run things until the Age of Exploration. So, yeah, I also over-simplified things to be pedantic. Feel free to do whatever with that, now that we all understand each other better. Researcher 10:54, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
You have a good point, it's just not one I could fit into the scope of what I was saying. I mean, China developed into an immense empire, but remained rather primitive considering its size and population. That would be an immediate and obvious objection to my own argument. But Diamond points out that with relatively few natural barriers, this very rapid empire-building that occurred actually hindered technology; it was too easy and stable compared to the balkanized areas of Europe naturally divided with rivers and mountains (of which there are comparably much fewer in the main area of China). While Castile was still fighting with Aragon, China had an immense and stable empire with a big damn wall along a lot of it to help repel bandits.
There's just too much to put in and keep it readable. I was really just trying to take a basic topic that was right in line with RW goals and whose article really sucked, and provide a cogent response to the most common pro-racism argument I know.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 11:04, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
"Racism" usually depends on some distinguishing visual characteristics such as colour of skin, type of hair, shape of various facial features, while nations or ethnic groups often adopt specific modes of dress Organised religion adds to these distinguishing features with badges of allegiance or some sort of physical mutilation. Race is just a sub-set of how groups of humans differentiate and assert their superiority over other groups. I don't think you should separate race from other forms of discrimination it's just easier to identify.
As for native Americans they were basically at a technological disadvantage to Europeans because they had not invented the wheel or domesticated the horse. Redchuck.gif ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD member 11:10, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Natural tendencies

Altho there is in humans a natural tendency to categorize things (a useful trait), we sometimes create false categories. Race is one such example -- there is very little science (pseudoscience mostly) to back up racial theory. Hence the term "racism" is poorly named. Ethnocentrism is closer to the mark.

And people do tend to be ethnocentric, not necessarily because of a feeling of superiority, but just a personal preference for one's own kind. A Black person, for example, can be just as "racist" as a White, even while not feeling his "race" to be superior. (This may be typical in a White culture.)

A white supremicist may emphasize the achievement of the "white race" as a basis for superiority, but that is a value judgment based on his view of what human traits are superior. A Black man may consider beauty to be a more important criterion, and may believe Black to be beautiful.

Until i thumbed around Western Europe one summer, i believed skin color to be the determiner of prejudice -- i no longer do. The clash of cultures is the root of bias, NOT skin color. Skin color in some cultures may help to identify groups against which you are prejudiced, but it is not the color alone.

I'm of Irish (mostly) and Italian descent (my grandparents married against prejudice in Boston), and if i cut off somebody while driving, nearly causing him to crash -- and if i had recognizable traits (physical or otherwise) he may very well call me a Mick. Would that make him a racist?

By the by, i was amused by the European notion that America is more "racist" than they, something i myself believed upon first setting foot on European soil. That probably derives from news media slant. Some of the things i saw and heard in public surprised me, a lot. Once i witnessed a clash based on nothing but a different accent -- facial features of the participants were indistinguishable.

-- RemBeau 13:50, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

The most racist bastards I've ever met were either a pair of Dutch guys or a Chinese Political Science professor I met in Beijing. (The funny part was that the Chinese professor went on a tirade about how racist America was before he started saying horrible things about black people.) Researcher 14:10, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
The Dutch are STRONG believers that they aren't prejudiced, and can't be talked out of it. They will explain to you why their prejudice is not REALLY prejudice, but based on facts.
I love their art, tho, of their "Golden Period".
-- RemBeau 14:21, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Whoever said that Europe wasn't as racist as the US hadn't been around Europe much. SusanG  ContribsTalk 14:32, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
As much as I hate to say this (because it might make me sound like CP), there is a certain amount of irrational Euro love in certain segments of the US, which think that Europe can do no wrong. (This was shaken by the French riots, though.) Researcher 14:34, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Rem, I disagree with you that culture rather than skin colour is the major determiner of prejudice. For example, white people's prejudices about black people are still very common, e.g. in Britain, Europe & America, although the cultural differences between white & black people in those societies are fairly minimal. Similarly, Hitler's racist ideology was all about racial strengths and weaknesses (as he saw them), and he really wasn't very interested in culture (e.g. his views on the 'Jews' were all about Jewish ethnicity rather than Judaism). Racism can be ethnic or cultural. In my opinion it springs from a fear of the unknown - people are instinctively uncomfortable when they see something they're not used to, whether it's a different skin colour, an unusual accent or clothing, or cultural didfferences of behaviour - and from ignorant myths and stereotypes which turn these misunderstandings into prejudice. weaseLOIdWeaselly.jpg~ 14:37, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
First, you gotta be kiddin bringing Hitler into this. Power-hungry politicians commonly delve into race-hate, class-hate, occupation-hate, business-hate, partisan-hate ... whatever hate demagogues can gin up to increase their power. (Now the scapegoat is Wall Streeters. Two weeks ago it was oil companies.) Plus i thought it was pretty well-known Hitler had a grudge against Jews for personal reasons.
We're talking about societies and the prejudices of ordinary citizens, and there it is culture. The biggest sin America committed was slavery (mistake is a euphemism), and it left in its wake a culture that Whites want no part of, and skin-color and speech-pattern that is identified with that culture.
De jure segregation is long gone, but de facto segregation is still around, practiced by both Blacks and Whites. Attempts to force them together is useless, because a cultural wall is felt.
An American traveling in Europe will not feel that wall shoot up based on a skin color with which he has no cultural experience, and will be VERY surprised to find out the locals do. I know this for a FACT.
It has practically nothing to do with "fear of the unknown". I can't think how that even got started, nor how it makes sense. I will admit that phrase is pervasive, but not persuasive.
-- RemBeau 22:59, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
Ethnicity and race are two entirely different things, sorry. Ethnocentrism is a word with an actual meaning, and the meaning is not "racism" (which surprisingly also has an actual meaning).--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 23:19, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
So what is YOUR explanation why people are biased against other cultures?
-- RemBeau 08:49, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
People are raised to consider their culture superior, in general. It's an implicit if not an explicit lesson. Then there's the group assignation tendency in humans that I spoke of in the big addition to the main article here.
I'm just pointing out that ethnocentrism and racism are very different things. And I think the dictionary will back me up. You can't just redefine things because it makes it more convenient to explain them. Ethnocentrism is being prejudiced towards one's own ethnicity, whereas racism is being prejudiced about race. Ethnicity is a socially-constructed group, whereas race is an arbitrary grouping based on physical characteristics. They're two different things, sorry.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 08:58, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
"The ability to form general concepts on the basis of particular examples is an essential ingredient of intelligent behavior." -Angluin & Laird, machine learning researchers.
--NoPetrol (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

I see we're defining racism in terms of statements that one race is superior or inferior to another. Is this definition tight enough? This argument allows white nationalists to talk about racial preservation and disapprove of racial intermingling, while claiming that they're not racist because they don't explicitly say that other races are inferior. The BNP is a good example of this. I think that any kind of discrimination or prejudice based on race can be considered racist, irrespective of whether it actually states "this group is better than this group". ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 12:24, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] why so centred on the west?

Im ainu I know first hand how much discrimination and racsism I face in Japan ever though I am more native to Japan then most people. Or the hatred that most arabs fell towards persians and vice versa. seriosly wtf. — Unsigned, by: 204.169.48.246 / talk / contribs

We tend to be mostly western & write about what we know about. Please contribute if you will. I've only heard about the Ainu and know nothing about them - I would really like to know more. I am eating Toast& honeychat 21:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

added some information about the ainu

    • decent points. I have lived for a long time in America, and also all around the world. Though everyone makes a big deal out of race in America, it is actually FAR AND AWAY the LEAST racist place I have ever been to. In my (admittedly limited to 30 countries or so) experience, every other place is somewhere between either about the same or slightly worse (Canada)... or extremely almost unimaginably worse (Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, India). Racism exists all over the place, it's not something invented by "white" people or Americans.
It's a non-falsifiable cultural Marxist attack on the West. "Racists" are the new bourgeoisie. Mikemikev (talk) 07:53, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

[edit] I thought this was supposed to be RATIONAL wiki.

This is all a bunch of subjective claptrap, it makes use of the same arguments creationists use. I guess it's expected considering this is a left-oriented wiki. Completely ignores cluster theory, etc. Race is NOT a social construct. 174.54.34.187 (talk) 09:05, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

The Symphony of Punk Can't sleep, clowns will eat me! 09:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

If race isn't a social construct, then it ought to be scientifically observable and testable. Please explain how this is possible, or give some examples. €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 09:16, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The differences in melanin levels are perhaps not observable enough? Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 01:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Not really, no. In general, yes, but the extreme range out there... ħumanUser talk:Human 03:24, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
BONs are trying to get us drunk. Two shots! Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Three shots! ħumanUser talk:Human 03:24, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

[edit] "irrational belief"

I thought that this was supposed to be rational wiki. Considering racism irrational is itself irrational.— Unsigned, by: 90.177.208.162 / talk / contribs

Given that science has skewered every attempt to rationalize it (e.g., phrenology, polygenism), it is fairly safe to conclude that, given the current evidence, it is irrational. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 01:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
It's irrational because when it comes to people you can't use statistics to judge. Let's say you somehow manage to prove that blacks are dumb (never mind that this has been disproved, and any disparities have been explained by sociological and historical factors): what then? Will you prevent black people from going to school? What will you do with the Kofi Anan's and Neil Degrasse Tyson's of the world? Racism is irrational because racism is prejudice; and judging someone before you've even met them is undoubtedly irrational.--"Shut up, Brx." 01:56, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
It is proven that blacks in the U.S. have average IQ of 85. No one denies that there can be some exceptional individuals. The affirmative action is in fact racist. --90.177.208.162 (talk) 02:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
[citation needed] ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:24, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
The Bell Curve.
Now, let us leave aside for a minute any problems with those numbers (and they are many). There is certainly some white person in the U.S. with an I.Q. of 85. Most racists would have us treat this person differently from a black person with an I.Q. of 85. It would follow that when racists cite any mean I.Q. differences to justify their policies, they are quacking up bullshit. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 02:31, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
What I care about is average. Most of white persons certainly don't have IQ 85. 85.162.93.130 (talk) 02:48, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
generalizations are not rational. And as far as your statement that most whites don't have an IQ of 85, all I can say is that you'd be surprised--"Shut up, Brx." 02:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
All I can say is that whates have IQ 100. You are dumb and this is not a rational wiki.--85.162.93.130 (talk) 02:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
(ec)You do realize that IQ tests have to be readjusted due to the Flynn effect, right? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
(ECX3) And you just misspelled whites. ТyTalk. 02:57, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Flynn effect has no effect since the IQs of both blacks and whites increase at the same pace. --90.177.208.162 (talk) 03:04, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
TrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTrollTroll
No, the effects are not always even. Try actually reading the research. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Usually they are. --90.177.208.162 (talk) 03:27, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I think racism is a set of attitudes, rather than beliefs. Certainly there are beliefs which are used to justify those attitudes, and those beliefs can be irrational. But I don't think the attitudes themselves can be rational or irrational, since I think only beliefs can be rational or irrational. They can be wrong or immoral, certainly; but not irrational. I also think it is wrong to focus too much on racist beliefs, since that approach can assume the beliefs came first and the attitudes come second; I think it more likely the attitudes come first, and then people go looking for beliefs they can use to justify them. You can disprove every single one of their beliefs, and it won't make any difference, because the beliefs are not the cause, just a symptom. I think the underlying attitudes can be cured, but the methods to do so aren't going to be rational, but rather social — e.g. opportunities to form friendships with members of other races. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 10:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

"I don't think the attitudes themselves can be rational or irrational, since I think only beliefs can be rational or irrational". Why? €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 10:09, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
There are two types of rationality — epistemic rationality, which governs whether beliefs are rational; instrumental or pragmatic rationality, which is concerned whether a course of action is rational given a certain objective. Clearly, if racism is an attitude rather than a belief, it can't be epistemically rational or irrational, since only beliefs can be epistemically rational or irrational.
Could racism be instrumentally irrational? Possibly; but instrumental to what? Instrumental rationality is relative to one's objectives; since people can adopt whatever objectives they want, racism may be rational, irrational or arational given those objectives. By picking the right objectives for one's self, one can arrive at whatever answer one wishes. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 10:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
"Clearly, if racism is an attitude rather than a belief, it can't be epistemically rational or irrational, since only beliefs can be epistemically rational or irrational." So you're still just reiterating the same bald assertions. As if there's even a solid distinction between attitudes & beliefs anyway. Take an attitude like "I don't like darkies" and a belief like "blacks are inferior to whites". Can we really say that it's only fair to assess the rationality of the second statement while the first is neither rational nor irrational? I don't think so. The attitude - a vague racist sentiment - is pretty much irrational by definition: a gut feeling which hasn't been rationalised. The belief in racial superiority is really just a rationalisation of this attitude, usually backed up with some flawed show of evidence. It comprises a more rational statement in the sense that it's a hypothesis not just an impulse, but whether it's truly rational is down to whether it's a sound conclusion drawn from reliable evidence (which it isn't) or just a way of justifying that irrational racist attitude. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 10:56, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I think it comes down to how we define rationality. I have attempted to offer a definition of rationality (well, not a complete one, but I've identified parts of one). You don't have to agree with mine; but can you produce an alternative?
In terms of likes/dislikes, compare the following statements: "I hate broccoli" and "Broccoli causes cancer"; "I hate Fred" and "Fred is a child molester". In both these cases, the first statement is just a raw expression of emotion/feeling, it can't really be true or false, rational or irrational. (Well, I could lie and say "I hate broccoli" when I really love it.) The second statement certainly can be true/false/rational/irrational. Doesn't the same apply to "I don't like darkies" vs "blacks are inferior to whites"?
Yes, the belief could be a consequence or a cause of the attitude; but an attitude can exist independent of beliefs. I could hate Fred for no particular reason. Maybe Fred and I have known each other for many years, and the reasons why we hate each other are lost in the mysts of time, we just do... Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 11:06, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Attitudes don't come out of nowhere & people don't hates each other "for no particular reason". If Fred hates Norwegians, there must be reasons why, even if he isn't aware of them: maybe societal conditioning (e.g. attitudes/opinions of parents or peers) or culture clash, backed up by some false positives, confirmation bias, etc. These reasons are all very subjective & that's what makes it an irrational attitude, in the same way that a phobia of insects is an irrational fear. If you hate Fred, there must be reasons for it, even if you can't remember them or are not fully aware of them. Whether it's a rational hatred kindof depends on what those reasons are. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 11:23, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Let's say Fred went to visit Norway and had a really bad experience there, and as a result he hates all Norwegians. Need he have any irrational beliefs as a result? Can't his Norway-hating just be purely "visceral", i.e. existing at the level of emotions, but not at the level of beliefs? Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 11:27, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Of course it can, but it's unclear why you don't find that irrational. He's forming an attitude about all Norwegians based arbitrarily on whatever bad experience he had. How is that not irrational? This brings us back to my original point: the difference between "I hate all Norwegians" (an attitude) and "the Norwegians are a bunch of bastards" (a belief) is negligible. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 11:55, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I want to leave the belief-attitude distinction to one side for the moment, and look at things in another way. Let me sketch my argument as follows:

  1. Rationality is either epistemic or instrumental
  2. Fred's Norwegian-hating could be epistemically arational (arational = neither rational nor irrational)
  3. Fred's Norwegian-hating could be instrumentally arational
  4. Therefore, Fred's Norwegian-hating could be arational

Now, I think the conclusion follows from the premises, so if you reject the conclusion, you'd have to reject one of my premises. But which premise do you reject, (1), (2) or (3)? Right now you seem to be focusing on rejection of (2), but maybe you should consider rejecting my premise (1) instead? I believe that there are only two types of rationality, epistemic and instrumental; but maybe I am wrong and there are other types too? My reason for believing in only two types of rationality, is that I feel I have a reasonably clear (if not perfect) idea about how epistemic and instrumental rationality work, but really have no idea how any other kind of rationality would work (or even what to call it). But, if you can describe another type of rationality, other than epistemic and instrumental, and give me some idea of its principles of operation, you might convince me to reject my premise (1). Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 12:25, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I reject #2, #3 & possibly #1, but I'm really not interested in what the dictionary of philosophy says.
  • 2 - that Norwegian-hating could be epistemically arational - seems to suggest that it could just be a hatred he has for no reason whatsoever, a possibility you implied further up in this debate. I don't accept that; an impulse like hatred has some origin & its basis could be rational or irrational. In the example you've given, Fred went to visit Norway and had a really bad experience there, and as a result he hates all Norwegians. That's not rational; he's making a judgement about all Norwegians, based on one incident, maybe on one or a few individuals. It doesn't matter whether that hatred takes the form of an attitude ("I hate all Norwegians") or a belief ("the Norwegians are a bunch of bastards"); the outcome is equally irrational.
  • 3 - that Norwegian-hating could be instrumentally arational - suggests that the attitude could be held without influencing either his beliefs or his attitudes, both of which you agree can be rational/irrational. I don't accept this. It is unlikely that his belief will be "there's nothing wrong with most Norwegians, yet I hate all Norwegians". No, if he starts out hating Norwegians, he will probably rationalise this in some way & end up with an irrational belief ("the Norwegians are a bunch of bastards"). Even if he doesn't think about it that much, the fact that he hates Norwegians is certain to influence his future interactions with Norwegians & decisions about whether to visit Norway again etc. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Let me give a different example (which is actually based on my personal experience, but the names have been changed). Sarah was abused as a child by a man named Fred. As a result, she viscerally dislikes all men named Fred, because their name reminds her of the abuse. Now, does she have any irrational beliefs? She doesn't believe anything like "all men called Fred are child abusers". This doesn't operate at the level of belief. It is purely visceral, pure attitude without belief. You may or may not call her emotions irrational, but her beliefs aren't, because she doesn't have any. A less emotive example - I like the colour green. That is an attitude of mine, but there is no belief that goes with it (except for the purely reflexive belief that the attitude exists). So, why can't Fred hate all Norwegians, without having any irrational beliefs about them? Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 13:17, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
"she viscerally dislikes all men named Fred" - that would seem a pretty obvious case of instrumental irrationality, since it's going to adversely affect any interactions she has with any other Freds. I would also argue that it's epistemically irrational. The conclusion (viscerally dislike all men named Fred) does not logically follow from the premise (abused as a child by a man named Fred). It's logical/rational in terms of cause & effect (a traumatic childhood experience creates a long-term psychological effect) but not in terms of rational thinking, regardless of whether she attaches any belief to it or not. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:32, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Instrumental rationality isn't absolute, it is relative to one's objectives. You are quite right that her visceral dislike of all Fred's could be instrumentally irrational, but whether it actually is entirely depends on what objectives she choooses for herself. In terms of epistemic rationality, "viscerally dislike all men named Fred" is not a conclusion, and "abused as a child by a man named Fred" is not a premise. You seem to be confusing logical inference with causation. Her visceral dislike of all men named Fred is not a belief, it is not a proposition, it is not a claim about how the world is, it is simply an attitude towards the world. Arguments, inferences (A is true, therefore B must be true), can be epistemically rational or irrational; but cause-and-effect and logical inference are different things. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 19:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I believe User:ListenerX is correct above. In many cases it seems as if "racism" is an attempt to extend what is observed statistically and generally to specific cases. It may well be the case that some ethnic groups have lower IQ scores but I believe that the phrase there is "Correlation Does Not Equal Causation". So at least basing your racist tendencies on this sort of reasoning is irrational, because it breaks basic logic and how you use evidence to come to a conclusion. In fact there are suggestions that the lower IQ score is because of racism. IE- racism and persecution against some groups have prevented them from achieving the same IQ scores as more dominant ethnic groups. In which case it is also irrational because it then becomes quite circular. Valjean (talk) 12:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree that, if one is a racist primarily because one believes that some races have lower IQs, then one would be irrational. However, if one hates all members of race X for no discernable reason, I am not sure how that is irrational - arational, yes, but not irrational. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 12:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
If one has no justification for a belief then it must, by definition, be irrational. Rational belief systems must have a coherent train of evidence and though leading to them. I do not think this supposed "artaional" really exists. But this is a mere distraction as attempting to judge something as irrational or rational is just an attempt to slur it one way or another. As the original poster seems to suggest when pondering why this site claims to be rational. It would be more apt to consider, perhaps, whether it is "justifiable" to hold such a belief, rather than consider the rationality of it. Valjean (talk) 12:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
But, if one hates all members of race X for no discernible reason, is that a belief? Or just a feeling, an emotion, an attitude? Is it justifiable to have a feeling, an emotion, an attitude? I think it is, but I think "justification" here operates in two very different senses. "Is it justifiable for you to believe that the CIA killed JFK?" and "Is it justifiable for you to hate your father?", the word justifiable here is rather equivocal. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 13:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
(EC)I don't see why it's that complicated. It's just wrong to judge someone's ability by the colour of their skin because theyre completely unrelated. Right?? Ancient Greek Pegasus icon.png 12:56, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree it's wrong, but is it ethically wrong or rationally wrong or both? I would suggest it is near always ethically wrong, but not necessarily always rationally wrong. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 13:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
You mean that Black people , being closer to the beginning of human evolution are not intrinsically either more or less advanced than other races ? do they not have inate sports skills, a natural sense of rythym and mad tapdancing skills with a love of watermelons :) Hamster (talk) 14:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

[edit] intermission resulting from edit conflict

'Rational' means different things in different contexts and is not necessarily equivalent to ethical. In economics it gets used as being what is being of most benefit to the individual, in which case racism or any other form of bigotry that might bind a group together may be 'rational' for the economic well-being of the group, but not ethical if one believes in the principles of equality and fair play. There may even be evolutionary pressures which favour bigotry. Dawkins is a committed evolutionist but even he doesn't believe that human society should conduct itself on a pure 'survival of the fittest' doctrine. Paradoxically it is often those who oppose biological evolution endorse it in the setting of capitalism.  Lily Inspirate me. 12:35, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I think racism is always immoral, even though I think it is not always irrational. "Rational" is a word that gets used in such a mess of different ways, the philosopher in me wants to impose some order on it... the result of doing so though, is I may end up rejecting a fair chunk of how the word is actually used in practice, as simply being beyond redemption. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 12:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
At the risk of being accused of trolling racism does have rational roots. Consider when mankind lived in small tribal comunities; For millenia those from 'our' tribe were good, beneficial to my gene's survival. Those from other tribes were 'bad' a threat to my tribes resources and thence a threat to my gene's survival. The my tribe/not my tribe thing is easy when the 'others' have distinctive markings; different clothign or, specifically, different skin tones.
As we have moved from a purely tribal society we have kept the remants of these my tribe/not my tribe instincts an turned them into a fear of 'other races'.
Now, let me be quite clear. I am not saying that racism is right, or good, or in any way moral. Just that the racist instinct has rational roots. Hey, we Lancastrians can't stand Yorkshire men. Jack Hughes (talk) 13:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I'd add, there are certainly scenarios in today's world where racist beliefs are entirely rational. For example, suppose you are a small child, and your parents are Neo-Nazis. They raise you with their racist beliefs, and you believe them. Is it irrational for you to believe them? I don't think so - I think it is rational for small children to believe everything their parents tell them. Of course, as the child gets older, if the belief stays the same, there will come a point when it is no longer rational (when the child is old enough to think independently of its parents.) Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 13:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
"I think it is rational for small children to believe everything their parents tell them". Epistemically or instrumentally? WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
In that sentence, I meant epistemically. Although, it would likely be instrumentally rational too. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 13:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

[edit] God and racism

God (allegedly) created humans in (gender pronouns to taste) image.

Therefore racism is blasphemy.

Discuss. 212.85.6.26 (talk) 17:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting argument. I suppose I agree. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 02:21, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
But what if some humans are more imagey than others? :P 184.15.115.165 (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

[edit] So, if race is a social costruct because all humans share 99.5% of DNA...

Then consider that chimpanzees are also the same because we share over 98% DNA with them. Cherry-picking sure is fun! In other animals, subspecies are determined on the smallest superficial features. Yet of course whites, blacks and the others are considered the same subspecies despite blatant differences seen by a naked eye. You claim to be not sheep, yet you just repeat what TV says. In the end it all boils down to emotional arguments because you don't want to believe that humans are not equal. --109.206.212.64 (talk) 09:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I thought that this was a pretty good point. So I went to fix the article. But I can't find what you're criticizing, even though I read it over three times. Is this a reference to the quote from Not in Our Genes? Because if so, I would suggest you're reading what you want to read, not what is actually there.--ADtalkModerator 09:55, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I'm sorry. I'm really short-tempered. Yeah, that's what I was criticizing - I don't want to say that I'm fully right, but that it's not something that everyone has a full consensus on (I mean, the latest hot debate is whether CERN really broke the speed of light or not) . I didn't mean to insult anyone - I believe in all this race, subspecies etc. but I don't really hate anyone - I see the diversity of the human species as a wonderful thing.--109.206.212.64 (talk) 11:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Well don't worry, you didn't insult anyone. You just seemed bizarre.
The problem here just seems to be one of information. To the best of my knowledge there is a very broad consensus that "black people" and "white people" are not any sort of coherent division biologically, be it subspecies or "race" (as understood in biology). Rather, there is instead a recognition that the limited physical variability, such as differing tendency towards sickle-cell anemia or lactose intolerance, is a regional variability that occurs in different ethnicities - a very different sort of thing, very limited in scope, and very different from racism. We're not saying everyone is the same, just that judging people based on their perceived group orientation with an eye to origin is a stupid way to do things that doesn't match up well either in reality or on a moral basis.--ADtalkModerator 11:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Unfounded pessimism on early history and prehistory.

The claim that "Racism has existed in all areas and at all times where different races or cultures of humans have encountered each other. It is an unfortunate legacy of ancient days as hunter-gatherers that humans are inclined to judge groups by surface appearances. While this trait presumably was very useful in a day in which clan cohesion and recognition were of paramount importance, as society evolved into agrarian and then urban forms the habit has proven to be a problem." should be deleted. The primary effect of agriculture (or quasi-agriculture in the case of pre-Columbian America) was more work, not surplus or leisure. That increase in work necessiated large families to breed workforce, and that created the overpopulation that created rivalry that created xenophobia. Extant hunter-gatherers are not an accurate time capsule of early humans at all, since their culture has been shaped by conflict with other cultures in recent, overpopulated millennia. The vast geographical distribution of identical art from the paleolithic provides palpable archaeological evidence that xenophobia was nonexistent back then. Xenophobia is a construct made in recent, globally overpopulated millennia. It is true that there is more genetic variability within groups than fixed group genetic identifiers, but modern research on diversity reducing selection suggests that the degree of individual genetic diversity is a sign of group evolution, the more individual genetic diversity the more archaic retentions. However, it would be unfounded to think of it as justification for oppression, especially since early humans lived without rivalry or oppression and the geographical distribution of diversity agrees with the model that the first proto-human populations to successfully avoid competition under migration models have evolved the most diversity reducing selection on their way to their modern descendants. 79.138.199.224 (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)Martin J Sallberg

This is an interesting second perspective. Maybe you could add it into the article without deleting the present material - sort, "on the other hand, the argument can be made that racism is anything but the natural condition of man..." etc.--ADtalkModerator 20:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Misuse of the concept

I think it'd be a good idea to have a section listing some of the really, really stupid accusations of racism made over the years. For example, we had a discussion a while back about someone accusing Jesus and Mo of racism because it made fun of Mohammed (although that example was from halfway through an audio file, so it'd be awkward to cite). Then there's this guy in Yorkshire who's facing charges of "racially aggravated public order offences" for insulting soldiers. Anyone got any other examples at hand? Balaam (talk) 17:36, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Atheoi's edit removed.

The fact that one black person has risen to high office does not undo the relative powerlessness of racialized minorities. We do not live in a post-racial anything. Segregation of the sexes is by no means a necessary component of sexism. Moreover, all of these facile comparisons between sexism and racism are largely unproductive and irrelevant. Theory of Practice Still tryin' to figure it all out. 18:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

If you say so. But that does not imply that black people cannot be racist, c.f. NOI, BHI, etc., that racism lies in the recognizing of race, desire for segregation, or criticism of culture, but racial collectivism as given by the dictionary definition, much like how sexism is sexual collectivism. Gotcha? Atheoi 18:18, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
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