Talk:Rape culture/Archive1

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[edit] Distrust

There is something I'd like to add, but i'm not sure how to word it. When you go into a police station to report a rape, you are treated with a sense of "distrust" (?) that you are likely as not lying, or that at least you were culpable in your own rape - in a way that i don't see when you report a mugging, or someone breaking into your house - which isn't just blaming the victim, it's the whole idea that either rape is "kinda whatever a crime", or that we are all just lying bitches. not sure which. Secondly, when you go into the hospital no one looks at you, talks to you, calls you by name. you are "the victim", and you are a vagina with dna evidence in you. Part of it is to protect the sanity of nurses and doctors, i'm sure. but it feels very different than when you were hit by a drunk driver or mugged, and still have to have some tests done. Those are both very much part of "rape culture", but i don't knwo how to talk about them dispassionately. --Green mowse.pngGodot She was a venus demilo in her sister's jeans 20:26, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

How about "dehumanization"? --Seth Peck (talk) 20:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
This is a major issue & definitely worth including, with appropriate citations. Search "second rape" (how police treatment of rape victims has sometimes been described) & you'll find quite a lot on the subject. This report is relevant: [1]. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
(What i wanted to say was, "the reporting and exam made me feel worse than being raped". Sethpeck hit the nail on the head - dehumanizing. thanks i'll add the report and do some research.--Green mowse.pngGodot She was a venus demilo in her sister's jeans 22:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

[edit] This seems remarkably unskeptical.....

... and has some very odd notions in it as well. Emergency room staff talk of "DNA evidence in the vagina", and "make sure to photograph all the bruises on the victim", in a way that removes the person raped, from the exam. If you're arguing that rape is underprosecuted, it seems quite odd to demonize ER staff for taking steps to preserve vital physical evidence of the identity of the perpetrator and of lack of consent. In any legal proceeding, the identity of the perpetrator and the fact of lack of consent are likely to be issues. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

there are very good reasons for the ER staff to be somewhat disconnected emotionally. Its not their job to console a 'victim' but it is their job to document and testify to that in court if needed.
the same applies to the police. There are probably more false allegations made so they need to be skeptical, rape is also a difficult thing to prove. When I worked a crisis phone line we got a fairly large number of young women who wanted to know if they had been raped. This ranged from "I was so drunk", "I didn't really want to but he's my boyfriend and I want to keep him", to "he punched me in the face and then...". It is sometimes the case that a rape allegation is made when the teenage girls parents are awake when she gets home and notice her sweater is on inside out. I have never had a woman on a date strip her clothes off and say "nail me big boy" while winking, licking her lips and wiggling her ass. Hamster (talk) 17:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Rational wiki my ass

Yet another biased and unskeptical article that swallows feminist propaganda without questioning any of it's tenants, why not just call yourself liberalpedia? Frankly I have no more interest in reading a website full of liberal propaganda than one full of conservative propaganda. At least your arch-nemesis is honest about his website. — Unsigned, by: 90.205.234.107 / talk / contribs 09:11, 26 October 2013‎

We're likely to take note of the uneducated poltroon that you appear to be?
"tenant: One that pays rent to use or occupy land, a building, or other property owned by another."
Could you possibly mean "tenet: a belief, opinion, or dogma"?
also:
"nemesis: A source of harm or ruin" "arch-: chief, highest, most extreme"
Assuming that you mean Mr Schlafly, I don't think so, the only thing he is likely to harm or ruin is himself.
Scream!! (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
That is a very, very poor answer. Obviously, OP means "tenets"; like myself, he is most likely not a native English speaker. Had you wished to contribute with anything more than sarcasm, you would just have assumed that and answered his points rather than completely avoiding them and focusing on a spelling mistake.— Unsigned, by: 212.242.115.68 / talk / contribs
90.205.234.107, I see quite a few accusations in your comments but I can't spot any argument. What is it about this article that you find unskeptical? What is it about it about it that you find biased? Etc. Without arguments to back it up, your criticism is both empty and useless. Kamizushi (talk) 21:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I can't answer for 90.205.234.107, but the article reads *extraordinarily* biased, unscientific, full of value-judgements, and over-emotional. It's quite similar in style to how evolution is described on Conservapedia. It is quite obviously written by someone who is deeply involved in the more "religious" branches of gender studies and who has an axe to grind. I have little opinion one way or the other on the topic, but completely agree with 90.205.234.107 that RationalWiki seems anything *but* rational on the matter.— Unsigned, by: 212.242.115.68 / talk / contribs

Cool story, bro. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.Moderator 20:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

[edit] A youtube video

I see the amazing athiest's latest vlog seems to focus on this article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KQQ1bzQn0k Ydam (talk) 15:31, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

While I disagree with much of what he says, reading this article I did find that there was a lack of interest for rapes where men are victims or where women are perpetrators. I think it's a very important aspect of the rape culture and it's unfortunate that and article about it would focus almost exclusively on men to women rapes and prison rapes. I will mention it in the article but I encourage others who might know more than I do to elaborate. Kamizushi (talk) 02:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I should point out that according to footnote 7: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/SV-DataSheet-a.pdf the same number of men and women are sexually assaulted every year. A Real Libertarian (talk) 18:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

What I got when I clicked that link was a very nicely layed out PDF with zalgotext for content. Ikanreed (talk) 22:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] What rape culture involves

ADeadKennedy's changed wording pretty seriously altered the meaning of the first paragraph of this section, which refers to a specific and common response to reports of rape. The changes also didn't really seem to have much to do with the source referenced. I changed it back, though I did change the sentence structure of the first sentence to make it flow better.Dowdicus (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see very much change in meaning between the two versions (link). It just looks like a rearrangement of the same words & phrases. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel

[edit] The Male Issue.

OK, the CDC says that the same number of men and women are raped/forced to penetrate in the past 12 months (1.1%, page 18-19).

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

So should this be in the article?

And the CDC says that more men experience domestic violence in the past 12 months (4.7% vs. 4.0%, page 38).

Should that be in the article? A Real Libertarian (talk) 00:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Those statistics don't necessarily demonstrate anything conclusive about rape culture, which is the subject of this article. They cetainly don't prove the thing about blaming the victim as "wanting it" that you keep trying to add. You also seem determined to lie about the numibers of men raped according to the report (1.4% during their lifetime, too few to quantify in the past 12 months) & replace them with numbers forced to penetrate while still claiming these as numbers raped.You might consider the two things to be equivalent or synonymous, but the report clearly doesn't as it provides separate figures for each. When you swap them about to fit your own agenda while citing the report as if that's what it says, you're being dishonest. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 00:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
"You might consider the two things to be equivalent or synonymous" As of recently they are:http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1
Or are you arguing that men weren't raped because at the time it wasn't called rape? Because that line of argument seems pretty close to "There were no homosexuals before the 19th Century because that's when the word was invented" for my tastes.
And I'm pretty sure that most people who say men can't be raped say "he obviously wanted it" as their reasoning.
Why are you arguing "forced to penetrate isn't rape" if that isn't the reason? A Real Libertarian (talk) 01:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
As of recently, what? The article you cited states that the FBI definition of rape (which isn't the only definition, BTW) is now "any kind of penetration of another person, regardless of gender, without the victim's consent". It doesn't say anything about being forced to penetrate also being defined as rape. When I checked the FBI regulation wording on Wikipedia, it suggested the same thing: non-consensual penetration of another person, not forcing another person to penetrate oneself. The rest of your comment makes even less sense. Just false analogies & bare asumptions. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 01:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
So why are you saying "forced to penetrate isn't rape"? A Real Libertarian (talk) 01:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
I fail to see the relevance of your complaint. Yes, men do occasionally get raped, but they aren't stigmatized for it the way women often are. Rape culture is an issue of societal power imbalance between men and women, and it's something both men and women need to be aware of, because both genders perpetuate it to some extent. (In fact, one of the big things that separate radfems from the rest of feminism is disagreement over whether willing participation in sex work and other occupations that appear to be exploitative perpetuates rape culture or not. Radfems say yes; everyone else says "it depends".) EVDebs (talk) 01:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Men are raped at the same rate as women, if you disagree, explain why "forced to penetrate" isn't rape, please.
Men are stigmatized for being raped to the point where they're erased from popular consciousness.
The big power imbalance is that one gender is specifically an acceptable target, one gender is believed by a very large part of the public to be incapable of being a rape victim, one gender is nearly incapable of reporting the crime without being insulted and shamed by the cops, one gender can be mocked to their face about being raped on national TV without the show being cancelled in an atomic shitstorm of bad publicity. Which gender is that, do you think?
All this is leaving aside domestic violence, do you have any thoughts on that issue? A Real Libertarian (talk) 02:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Men aren't raped at the same rate as women. Check those statistics again. You've claimed that the CDC & FBI define rape of men in ways which they demonstrably don't. & Your assertion that men can't report sex crimes against them without being mocked isn't backed up by anything more than bare assertion. WěǎšěǐǒǐďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 03:03, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Men are raped at the same rate as women 1.1% vs. 1.1%, if you disagree, explain why "forced to penetrate" isn't rape, please.
P.S. Comment 164, mudpuddles: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/, Lil Wayne on Jimmy Kimmel A Real Libertarian (talk) 03:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Men are not raped at the same rate as women. Please actually read the figures you keep citing & you'll see that figures for rapes of men are actually provided & are way lower than you claim: 1.4% in their lifetine. "Forced to penetrate" is listed in an "other sexual violence" category, not classed as rape. Lots of non-consensual sexual acts are considered as sexual offences or assaults without being classed as rape, definitions of which vary by jurisdiction but generally mean non-consensual penetration of another person (as, for example, in that FBI definition which you thought was saying something that it actually wasn't). ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 03:53, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
So it's not legitimate rape? Where have I heard that before? Oh, right "How forms of rape that don't conform to a (deeply offensive and sexist) specific set of standards aren't as important as those that do. That is, if the rape doesn't involve male stranger(s) on younger female victim penile-vaginal penetration with a large degree of force, then it's not "real rape" and can be downplayed or apologized for as necessary." This article http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rape_culture#What_rape_culture_involves.
The only difference is it's female on male. 1.1% of American women were raped in the past 12 months and 1.1% of American men were "forced to penetrate" in the past 12 months. The only difference is who is the perpetrator and who is the victim. You can't argue that it's rape when it's male on female, but it isn't rape when it's female on male.
P.S. So do you agree that "The big power imbalance is that one gender is specifically an acceptable target, one gender is believed by a very large part of the public to be incapable of being a rape victim, one gender is nearly incapable of reporting the crime without being insulted and shamed by the cops, one gender can be mocked to their face about being raped on national TV without the show being cancelled in an atomic shitstorm of bad publicity."? If not what part(s) do you disagree with?
P.P.S. Sorry about that, I read "The new provision will define rape as any kind of penetration of another person, regardless of gender, without the victim's consent." as meaning it's now irrelevant who owns the appendage/object in question, the only thing relevant is who did not give consent. A Real Libertarian (talk) 04:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
The first comment in this section by "A real libertarian" states: "the CDC says that the same number of men and women are raped/forced to penetrate in the past 12 months (1.1%, page 18-19)." This is totally incorrect. There is no combined category of "raped/forced to penetrate", although they do break down the categories of "raped" and "forced to penetrate" separately. In fact, the survey states that many more women than men are raped: Quote: "Nearly 1 in 5 women in the United States has been raped in her lifetime (18.3%). this translates to almost 22 million women in the United States." And: "Approximately 1 in 71 men in the United States (1.4%) reported having been raped in his lifetime, which translates to almost 1.6 million men in the United States." How the heck does "A real libertarian" conclude that 22 million women being raped is equal to 1.6 million men? Also, it seems the original poster is making the assumption that females are the perpetrators of the rapes when the opposite is the case. Quote: "Sex of Perpetrator in Lifetime Reports of Sexual Violence: The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators." So, we can conclude that rape of men is overwhelmingly male on male crime. Rape of women is overwhelmingly male on female crime. Also, women were much more likely to be raped by a stranger, and by more than one perpetrator, and victimized once, twice or three times. Whereas most men reported a single incident. Please read the report fully and do not misrepresent the statistics. Thanks. Rape is a gross violation of human rights, whether it be a male victim or a female victim. Refugeetalk page 21:49, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I would agree with you, mostly, but I also think you misunderstood the poster a bit, he didn't misrepresent the statistics as much as you think. Nullahnung (talk) 22:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
"The first comment in this section by "A real libertarian" states: "the CDC says that the same number of men and women are raped/forced to penetrate in the past 12 months (1.1%, page 18-19)." This is totally incorrect."
Actually it's completely correct.
Number of women raped in past 12 months according to page 18: Weighted % 1.1, Estimated Number of Victims 1,270,000.
Number of men "Made to penetrate" in past 12 months according to page 19: Weighted % 1.1, Estimated Number of Victims 1,267,000.
There's also discussion here:http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Forum:Is_RationalWiki_under_the_control_of_Feminist_activists%3F#Rape_and_Domestic_Abuse. And here:http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Forum:Is_RationalWiki_under_the_control_of_Feminist_activists%3F#On_the_characterization_of_feminists_here_and_elsewhere. (I'm further down the page.)A Real Libertarian (talk) 23:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Don't try to direct me to a discussion on another talk page, there is no way I am wasting any more of my time reading that particular stupid pointless talk page - I already weighed in there early, when I said: "The ratio of female to male editors at Rationalwiki is really low... there are actually very few female editors here, I can only think of 4 that are active: me, Godot, Kels, Proxima." So, unless the 4 of us female editors have "taken over" Rationalwiki (and 3 of us rarely edit) there is no reason to continue such a ridiculous discussion, the question is absurd, and I am not about to continue a discussion from this page to another one. As far as this topic: it's obvious that you have an "axe to grind" and a huge dislike of women, but make your case on facts, not by trying to skew statistics. This article on "rape culture" (which I have never contributed to) is actually an interesting topic, one that makes a person think more about the subject. This wiki already has tons of pages slanted from a male perspective, there's no reason to delete one of the few articles that may actually help men think more about their views on subjects they normally might not spend time contemplating. I really enjoy reading comments by the men here who are able to look at typically "female" topics with an open mind, and heart, and objectively review the information and subjects. Sadly though, it seems as if recently this wiki has seen an influx of rabid, angry women-haters, or perhaps there are just one or two, using multiple names. Peace & love, Refugeetalk page 20:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
quote from 'A Real Libertarian':"Number of women raped in past 12 months according to page 18: Weighted % 1.1, Estimated Number of Victims 1,270,000.
Number of men "Made to penetrate" in past 12 months according to page 19: Weighted % 1.1, Estimated Number of Victims 1,267,000."
Well,
These statistics are indeed written like that in the report, he didn't skew them, but whether we should be drawing any kind of conclusions from just that is debatable.
And yes, there is no reason to continue the linked discussion, linking it merely shows how it came to some of the things that are talked about on this talk page. Nullahnung (talk) 21:00, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
No, that was not the original poster's comment. You changed it. On the other hand, I quoted his comment exactly, by going to his comment at the top of this section and copy/pasting it here. I am responding to his comment, not your interpretation of it. He posted, and I quote: "OK, the CDC says that the same number of men and women are raped/forced to penetrate in the past 12 months". There is no category in the CDC report called "raped/forced to penetrate" as the original poster stated. He combined unrelated categories in an attempt to make it look like sexual violence against men and women are equal, which they are not. In the CDC report, there is a category of "Rape" and under a separate category of "Other Sexual Violence" (not under the category of "Rape") is a subgroup called "Made to Penetrate". Note that under the category of "Rape", the report states that: "Nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the U.S. have been raped at some time in their lives." Does that give you, or anyone, the impression that the same number of men and women are raped? The report breaks it down into two sections: a 12 month period, and a lifetime period. For the 12-month period for females it says: "Estimated Number of Female Victims of Rape in a 12 month period was 1,270,000" and for males: "Too few men reported rape in the 12 months prior to taking the survey to produce a reliable 12 month prevalence estimate." Again, does that give you, or anyone, the impression that the same number of men and women are raped? I'm not going to respond again to any absurd postings further debating this. If anyone is unable to read the report for themselves and to see that far more women are raped than men, it would be a waste of time and energy to further discuss it, and there is nothing more to be said. Refugeetalk page 22:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I'm the one who is agreeing with you on everything you say. YOU need to look more closely at what I'm posting and what he's posting. This is an EXACT QUOTE from him just a few posts up, I DID NOT change anything, it certainly isn't my own interpretation, but the EXACT WORDINGS from him:
"Number of women raped in past 12 months according to page 18: Weighted % 1.1, Estimated Number of Victims 1,270,000.
Number of men "Made to penetrate" in past 12 months according to page 19: Weighted % 1.1, Estimated Number of Victims 1,267,000."
Just look up a few lines and you'll see that I quoted DIRECTLY. I think you are confusing me with someone else or something. Nullahnung (talk) 22:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
"Made to penetrate" is rape. Look at the definitions on page 17. Notice anything? "Made to penetrate" and rape cover the same things except one will have mostly male victims and one mostly female victims.
Frankly this is a perfect example of rape culture. You're arguing that it's rape when it's male on female, but it isn't rape when it's female on male.
To me rape is rape, it doesn't matter who is the victim or who is the perpetrator, it's still rape, and you don't get a pass because of your genitals, you don't get told "you have the wrong naughty bits, you wanted it". A Real Libertarian (talk) 02:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
You're an idiot, you know that? The definitions on page 17 make it clear that rape is defined as forcible or non-consensual penetration of a woman or a man and that "forced to penetrate" means being forced to penetrate, and that these - while both defined as sexual violence - are not the same thing. The definitions and statistical reports both make it clear that both male & female rape victims are enumerated. & All this stuff you keep saying about male victims being told "you wanted it" - where is it coming from? It's not in the CDC report. Got any other sources for this claim?€₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
This is how rape is defined:
"Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object."
This is how "Forced to penetrate" is defined:
"Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus.
Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen."
You really can't figure out how sexist it is to define "rape" so that it's almost impossible for a female perpetrator to commit "rape" while it's almost impossible for a male perpetrator to not commit "rape"?
P.S. If you're not claiming male victims "wanted it" then why are you claiming forcible penetration and "forced to penetrate" are not the same thing? You've dodged this question before. A Real Libertarian (talk) 03:18, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Forcible penetration and "forced to penetrate" are not the same thing because they are not the same thing. Having another person enter one's body against one's wishes (rape) is generally considered to be pretty much the most invasive & traumatic form of sexual violation, more so than being forced or coerced to perform sex acts, including penetration, on other people. As a man, it's statistically much less likely to happen to you than to a woman. If this makes you feel left out or marginalised in some way, then I think you should seriously reconsider your whole approach to the issue, rather than redefine rape just to make out more female perpetrators & male victims, which is what your "it's almost impossible for a female perpetrator" argument boils down to. Nobody other than you has made any claims about male victims "wanting it". Being made to penetrate is already defined in this report as a form of sexual violence, along with other forms of sexual coercion & unwanted sexual contact. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 03:41, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
1. "Having another person enter one's body against one's wishes (rape) is generally considered to be pretty much the most invasive & traumatic form of sexual violation," Evidence? You could argue that the sensation of being trapped is just as traumatic so let's get some evidence.
2. "If this makes you feel left out or marginalised in some way, then I think you should seriously reconsider your whole approach to the issue, rather than redefine rape just to make out more female perpetrators & male victims,".
If this makes you feel left out or marginalized in some way, then I think you should seriously reconsider your whole approach to the issue, rather than redefine rape just to make out more female victims who have already given consent in their marriage vows.
If this makes you feel left out or marginalized in some way, then I think you should seriously reconsider your whole approach to the issue, rather than redefine marriage just to make your sodomy acceptable.
If this makes you feel left out or marginalized in some way, then I think you should seriously reconsider your whole approach to the issue, rather than redefine marriage just to make your race-mixing acceptable.
Yeah, turns out there's a reason "separate but equal" is bullshit.
3. Every other crime in the report is roughly equal over the past 12 months, except rape and "Made to penetrate". I wonder why? It couldn't happen to be institutionally sexist definitions now could it? A Real Libertarian (talk) 04:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Responding to Nullahnung: I see the very first sentence by "A real libertarian", in this section entitled "The Male Issue" states: "OK, the CDC says that the same number of men and women are raped/forced to penetrate in the past 12 months." That is the comment I am replying to. His first sentence in this section. Now, to "A Real Libertarian" YOU obviously did not read the CDC report, or my comment above where I quoted the report: " "Sex of Perpetrator in Lifetime Reports of Sexual Violence: The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators." So, we can conclude that rape of men is overwhelmingly male on male crime. Women are not raping men in any significant numbers. Stop making unfounded and inaccurate statements and conclusions. Done with you now. Refugeetalk page 03:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Personal remarks: A real Libertarian: stupid idiot. Weaseloid: you are still cool. Yay. Refugeetalk page 03:30, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
What do I have to post to make you see that I completely agree with you?? I don't know how to say this any clearer: I AM JUST TRYING TO CLEAR UP WHO QUOTED WHAT, BUT MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THE SAME AS YOURS, IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?? Nullahnung (talk) 08:38, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Calm yourself, no need to yell, that's exactly what I was doing, clarifying what he posted, and where. I think that's been cleared up now, have a nice day. :-) Refugeetalk page 18:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, miscommunication just really irritates me, and I felt misunderstood. I do realize that it's partly my fault to not state my position clearly, but whatever. A nice day to you too. Nullahnung (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
"The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators." Due to the sexist definition of rape. A Real Libertarian (talk) 03:36, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
lol. silly troll. Troll bye. Refugeetalk page 18:33, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Mission

What is this for? It's a poorly written screed that debunks what, exactly? ħumanUser talk:Human 03:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Human's continuing crusade to piss on everyone else, part 50. Star of David.png Radioactive Misanthrope 05:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Game of the Year edition. --Revolverman (talk) 06:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Obviously on mission. Deals with fundamentalism in a key way ("forcible,") and media in a real way. Hipocrite 21:59, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] What is meant by this?

"Emergency room staff talk of "DNA evidence in the vagina," and "make sure to photograph all the bruises on the victim," in a way which is insensitive to the victim."

How else are you supposed to talk about collecting evidence? How is this insensitive to the victim? How would you phrase it differently if you were emergency room staff?

Clarification appreciated. Nullahnung (talk) 17:06, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

See the first comment at the top of this page. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 17:52, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I've just seen it. Apparently the problem is that doctors are conditioned not to emote/empathise with their patients. As Godot said, it may be a protective emotional barrier doctors learn to setup. I can find no better explanation either. Nullahnung (talk) 17:59, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
It was added by WfG. I think it's a poor description of an actual phenomenon, and I'm not sure if it can be considered a part of rape culture. The article is poor, anyway.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs a rewrite

At the moment, this is mostly a list. There's a skeleton of an article, but not much meat on the bones. Someone needs to bite the bullet and re-write it as joined-up text, and it would be very nice if that someone is familiar with the topic.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:33, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

There are deeper problems with the article related to a cognitive bubble in rape research. The author is clearly writing from a social determinism perspective and glosses over (unskeptically) potential controversy in the nature-nurture debate and how it impacts rape research. It is a common theme among social determinists that culture is subconsciously programming us (is it really that simple?), and the entire notion of "rape culture", while real, becomes the start and end of an analysis that really needs to consider human nature as well. For example, rape (also any sex and violence) is fetishized by popular culture because people find it titillating, including women, and titillation can be translated into attention and money. Most rape is committed by a small portion of young men, of women, and is clearly a way to cheat sexual selection. Thus we should consider seriously the notion that "men hunt" and "women choose" as a broad generalization based in the mechanics of DNA, and a projection onto culture, and not the other way around. Pointing out that rape is about cheating sexual selection -- to young people, women esp. -- is far more useful in identifying and avoiding problematic behavior than blaming institutionalized misogyny. Rapists themselves obviously don't respect women, so preaching to them about misogyny will come across as blah-blah-blah. Rape in the legal system usually boils down to the question of consent, and it is (and will probably always be) very hard to prove that consent wasn't given. This is a terrible state of affairs, and much work needs to be done in the legal system so that victims are treated respectfully; however, a sane legal system must weigh the presumption of innocence appropriately, since (unlike murder) the charge of rape is easy to make, and equally difficult to prove as to disprove. In short, this article only partly satisfies the rational part of rationalwiki. Microbox (talk) 19:26, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] "Institutionalized"?

Either the word is uses in an unusual way, or the latest edits contradict the way I (and the people I've been reading) understand the term.--ZooGuard (talk) 10:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

What would you change about this word in the article if it were you writing? Please be more specific. Nullahnung (talk) 10:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I would avoid "institutionalised" because it's very jargony, and is often the SJW equivalent of throwing big words around to sound more photosynthesis. I prefer the lede in the second edit, though. Scarlet A.pngDon't click here 11:14, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Apparently "photosynthesis" is now considered jargony. O_O Nullahnung (talk) 11:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree with ZooGuard. "Institutionalized" to me implies a consciousness and deliberate use of official capacities. There was institutionalized racism against blacks in the Jim Crows South: People were well aware of the fact that the laws they passed hindered blacks - in fact that was the whole point. That's institutionalized racism. Rape culture IMO mostly feeds on subconscious, internalized sexist attitudes rather than on deliberate, conscious desires to keep rape victims or women down. And of course a whole lot of of rape culture is rooted in people's attitudes and doesn't need to involve social or political institutions at all. I would remove the word from the opening paragraph, and also remove the sub-headline "institutional rape-culture"... that sub-headline makes no sense being the only one in the "What rape culture involves" section anyway. Octo8 (talk) 11:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Man-hating

Apart from being just really badly written (and extremely unskeptical, taking the term rape culture at face value), this article plays a very clear blame-game against men, and even dares to "debunk" the 'not all men' defense, while not ever even mentioning that women might be part of rape culture, or might have responsibility or accountability. As if they're the wise and entirely blameless sages that have swallowed the red pill and now see the Matrix for what it really is. This entire article is disgusting. — Unsigned, by: 91.142.139.3 / talk / contribs

Cool story, bro. --Revolverman (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
I hate men! I loath them! In fact, I eat male fetuses. or... something....One tin soldier (talk) 14:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
By the way, you are *really* gonna like my "not all men" article, which basically says, because of culture - yes, all men. Won't that be a kick in the rubber parts! One tin soldier (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Please make it a general Not all X article, 'cos libertarians are big on this one too (sometimes it's like "libertarian" is a group with no members, just ask one) - David Gerard (talk) 16:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Will do. I'm trying to remember how to do sandboxes, and I'll draft something - let the world hack at it in there (to remove my vagina bias), and then present it to the wiki. heh. One tin soldier (talk) 16:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
(Please ignore the good-for-nothing posts above and address these things I'm about to point out)
EC)"Because of the overall sexism in rape culture, men do not get raped. That is, of course they get raped, but because of the way rape victims are seen by society, men who are raped are either ignored or labeled as sissy, or gay, or simply weak, in order to maintain the illusion that "men do not get raped""
This bit in the article says how rape culture has male and female victims. Explain to me how that is in any way, shape or form something a man-hating article would have.
Also this: "Discussing or admitting that rape culture exists does not mean anyone believes men think rape is somehow a good or valued thing. Nor does it mean that someone is accusing you of being a rapist. Discussing the fact that in America 1/4 of women[15] and some difficult-to-pin-down number of men have been raped or sexually harassed does not mean anyone thinks 1/4 of men have raped someone. But it does mean a culture exists which makes it hard for victims to come forward, to talk, or to heal."
This discusses how the blame is not with the men, it is just a problem of society. Explain to me how an article written for blame-gaming men would have this. Nullahnung (talk) 14:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Presumably the part where the rapist is always referred to as male and the victim is always referred to as female.
Language matters, if you always see "rapist" as man and "victim" as woman, you're going to react badly when someone who doesn't fit your view of the world comes along. --A Real Libertarian (talk) 19:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
I would personally suggest you learn to read. "Because of the overall sexism in rape culture, men do not get raped. That is, of course they get raped, but because of the way rape victims are seen by society, men who are raped are either ignored or labeled as sissy, or gay, or simply weak, in order to maintain the illusion that "men do not get raped". And in the same vein, women cannot rape men. Men, society teaches, are always horny, always seeking the next conquest and always ready for sex. So how could they be raped? -- Because of these very attitudes, society is extremely slow to address, much less change, the way male rape victims are treated.[2] [3] The FBI did not even classify male rape as rape until 2012.[4]" Right there we say men are raped, and women can be rapists. But it's easier not to actually read what you are challenging.One tin soldier (talk) 20:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
(EC)You just perfectly described one of the main reasons why rape culture is bad. It makes the men out to be the rapists and the women out to be the victims, which is why male rape victims are implicitly shunned (and thus not treated properly) as not fitting in and female rape victims aren't treated properly (crimes white-washed, etc.). Nullahnung (talk) 20:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
And for the record, in our introduction, we do not talk about gender anywhere. we say "victim" and "rapist". In the paragraph about blaming the victim, we say the most "acceptable" (as in, prosecutable) victim is white female virgin. Then we say male victims are on the lowest level of prosecution. That is to say, Rational Wiki gets, admits, and addresses male victims. it is society that does not.One tin soldier (talk) 20:11, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Ah-Hem: "Rape culture is a term used to describe the ways in which a society trivializes, rationalizes, and even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence, despite being nominally against rape or classifying the acts as crimes. "Rape culture" includes a variety of issues from the way raped individuals are treated by police to the way rape is portrayed in fiction and the media. Rape culture is steeped in institutionalized misogyny, having at its core cultural features of a society that is defining, politicizing, and ultimately controlling women's bodies. Rape culture, like all other aspects of culture, informs individual behaviors on many levels - often in ways the individual isn't even aware of."
For the record, I've rarely seen male victims called "sissy", "gay" or "weak". In my experience it's usually "misogynist", "derailer" or "MRA troll". And "exception", "sister punisher" or "lying male" when the victim is also female.
And throwing in a token "men get raped too" doesn't offset the drumbeat of "men rape, women are raped" "men rape, women are raped" that permeates the article. --A Real Libertarian (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
The article says that when someone is raped, it's probably a woman (who isn't treated properly), and when it's a man, he isn't treated properly either.
So yes, it is statistically the overwhelming case that men rape women, but we should take care not to ignore the other cases, and I think that was done to appropriate proportions in the article. If you disagree, then suggest specific changes maybe?
Your experiences online might just be due to the internet being full of assholes as usual, a problem that can be seen in online feminists as well as online whatever-other-movement. Nullahnung (talk) 20:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it's a token "men get raped too". I have used that language on other pages, in a token way, but here we are really addressing rape culture as one that victimizes male rape victims as much or in ways MORE than it does women. We make a point to say "How can society deal with raped men, if it doesn't even admit men are raped". We talk about prison rape. For what it's worth, and to me it's worth a lot, addressing issues of rape of men, and domestic violence of men came about because of women addressing rape culture and violence in the home, not despite it. One tin soldier (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
The third type of lies is statistics for a reason. Just invent a category of sexual violence called “being made to penetrate” and you make most victims of female rapists disappear.
Of course this where Weaseloid comes along and tells the victims their suffering is lesser because they were assaulted by a woman. And Refugee calls me a troll for pointing out the problem. --A Real Libertarian (talk) 21:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
"Very clear blame game against men" I don't think you know what "very clear" or "blame game" mean. The charge is that being caviler about rape has consequences in the minds of actual rapists. So the blame, with the context of the idea, clearly doesn't fall on all men, and the "NOT ALL MEN" objection you're raising is irrelevant, defensive, and stupid. Ikanreed (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
OK, let me touch upon the 'Addressing the "not all men" defense'. Why is that even there? Is it because the term rape culture is currently use to only imply that MEN are active participants in and proliferators of rape culture? Why is there no mention of some "not all women" issue? Maybe because it doesn't exist? Here, the section itself has a few nice quotes on it
  1. Numbered list item 1. "Unfortunately, discussions about rape culture can make men feel cornered, attacked or defensive." Yep, it seems women aren'r part of it.
  2. Numbered list item 2. "Rape culture is not a conscious conspiracy by men to keep women "in their place"." Again, only talks about not really being about men keeping women in their place.
  3. Numbered list item 3. "It is not something that men are generally even aware they participate in." See, this line right here shows perfectly what's wrong with the entire article. The existence of rape culture is taken at face value. Where's the "criticism" section? You'd think there'd be one for such a hotly debated issue that has its very existence questioned. Furthermore, the line only speaks of men disliking being shoved into the "rape culture" basket. I guess women either LOVE being in it, or AREN'T in it at all.
  4. Numbered list item 4. "Discussing the fact that in America 1/4 of women[15] and some difficult-to-pin-down number of men have been raped or sexually harassed does not mean anyone thinks 1/4 of men have raped someone." Oh look, the one-in-four statistic! I love it how it includes "some difficult-to-pin-down number of men" as being rape victims. With wording like that (A QUARTER OF ALL WOMEN and some men, sure), it's no wonder the public doesn't accept the fact that female-on-male and male-on-male rape is a thing.
Here's how to fix the article: Reword pretty much 90% of it, add a criticism section, and include actual facts, not hyped-up bullshit. I'd be happy to do it for you, but I have this feeling that all my efforts are going to be taken down for trolling or something.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:42, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
The article actually does focus quite a bit on male victims, maybe it could do with more, but I'd vouch for adding more content regarding male victims rather than rewriting it to focus on men specifically --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 09:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
If you think it's "hyped-up bullshit", it should be easy to provide a link to a counter statistic, right? Nullahnung (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
If the IP brings up the fucking Kanin study I'll weep --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:59, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Why the hell would I bring up a false rape study in order to back up my point that men raping women (~5% by most studies if you ignore retarded studies that conclude rape victim from questions like "Have you ever had something done to you against your will?") happens about as often as women raping men (4.5%, if you're wondering, counting made to penetrate alone). But it's nice to see that you admit the claim that rape is a problem concerning primarily women and the perpetrators are primarily men.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 12:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, most statistics, as well as my personal experiences, do seem to support that it is primarily female victims, with prison rape being the main outlier in American studies, and that the perpetrators are primarily male, in and out of prison. That said, I do agree that male rape survivors are not fairly represented, and that the marginalisation of male rape victims is a large part of rape culture. As I said, I do think that it would be good to include more coverage of male rape victims, but not by taking the focus away from female rape victims, which would achieve very little. What study are you quoting with ~5% and 4.5%? I believe the one in four statistic includes attempted rape? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:03, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Apologies for not submitting links, am at work, half the internet is blocked off. Will try to link up later on. The one-in-four is a fabrication, an embellishment of the one-in-five report which is itself a more sensationalistic way of rounding off 18.2% result which comes from a trainwreck study that did not depend on actual crime data, but phoning up random women and asking them a series of questions, none of which were clearly about rape. That study was taken at face value by the CDC, which included it in a rape report along with the numbers for woman-rapes-man forced-to-penetrate statistics, themselves obtained from a more credible study. The WRM FTP study does not include attempted rape. The "one-in-four" does, along with whatever else the interviewees considered "forced intimacy" (I think their most forward question used was something along the lines of "have you ever had intimacy forced upon you"; nothing remotely like "have you ever been a victim of rape or attempted rape"). The fact that the 18.2 and 4.5% numbers were included in the same report made it very clear that women were victims in a four-to-one ratio. UK had a pretty good man-rapes-woman study in ~2000, I think, with the conclusion of 5%. As far as rape studies in the western world go, you mostly get numbers between 4 and 7%, with a 55-45 to 51 to 49 split. Yes, women are more often victims. By pretty much nothing. --91.142.139.3 (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Do you understand that "crime data" is almost useless in the study of rape? I've been raped. Twice. Once the stranger rape (got me pregnant too, which is supposedly "rare", but isn't) and once a date rape. I used to hold myself fully to blame for the second. I sometimes held myself to blame for the first. I reported the first, because i was taken to a hosptital. this was the 80s, and maybe things have changed, but based on how I was treated, i would never, ever report another rape. Seriously. I did not report the second, cause again, at the time, i held myself to blame. I invited him to my dorm and was making out with him, after all. I've sat on, and as a wise old woman of my 50s, now lead rape survivor groups. I assure you, the whole "it's not real cause it's not crime reports' is pretty much bullshit. Many women, especially thsoe raped by people they knew or were dating, and almost all the men survivors we have, never say a thing. even to their family and friends. why? cause we put them down. dismiss them. blame them. proad them. I say this, not to make personal stories matter, but to explain from personal experience why "crime stats" are uesless in this field, and why studies that actually talk to women and men, get somewhere.One tin soldier (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
I respect you for talking openly about your personal experiences with this, I wouldn't be brave enough to do that myself. I've met rape survivors of both genders, including people who were systematically sexually abused over long periods of time, and a relative majority had and have not reported it. One of the biggest reasons why people don't go through the system is due to the stress that the process causes, especially as many rape survivors develop PTSD. I would trust a questionnaire where those asked are not pressured into taking legal action over crime reports, particularly as many children don't understand molestation until adulthood where you feel too far removed from the trauma to go through with legal action. Furthermore, 4%-7% would be shockingly high anyway, if that is the amount that are successfully taken to trial and proven. I've heard all of the arguments for "innocent until proven guilty" and I agree that the person accused should be held to that, but not ever the victim --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
The most you talk with people, the more you open up and get them to open up, the more you realize that we live in a world that rapes. It's a sad statement; one no one really wants to say or think about, but it's a real statement. I think much of the repulsion of "It cannot be 20-25% of women, that's way to high" comes from the fact that we dont' like ourselves as a culture were there is so much sexual abuse. Our culture is horrible with sex. we tell girls they "should be pure", yet praise the ones that aren't (at least in the media), so that girls are not very aware of how to own their sexuality. "am i suppsed to want sex, not want sex?" we should be teaching our kids how to talk about sex, and how to talk to EACHOTHER about sex before they have it. "what do you like?" "are you ready to start a sexual relationship?" "do you have any fears or hesitations?" etc. And we really need to get ride of the old "no means yes" or "a woman will say no at first, but it's your job as a man to push her till she says yes. like a good cassinova" crap. Start there, and lots of the non-violent rape stops. One tin soldier (talk) 16:36, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
I can't honestly say that this derailment comes as a surprise.
Anyway, do I understand that "crime data" is almost useless in the study of rape? No, I do not, because that is simply not true. Not 100% accurate? Sure. But now you have the wonderful job of trying to prove that males have a higher percentage of reported rapes than women. Do you honestly believe that it's easier for a man to come forward and *admit* to being raped, than it is for a woman? I never once said "it's not real if it's not crime reports", I merely compared two of the better studies of crime reports. And while 4-7% might still be shockingly high anyway, it is 4-7% IN BOTH GENDERS. And that is what I am trying to say here.
Sincerely, unreported male rape victim.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
You still haven't contributed any actual figures or studies, just continuously asserted that there are a higher percentage of male victims without them. The fact that you have had multiple users listen to you shows that there is no desire here for derailment, I really wish you would put forward some links or study names now that it's been a few days. I agree that it is a big part of rape culture that male victims feel less comfortable talking about what happened and going to the police with it. Again, what studies did you compare? You still haven't given names or links. Also, I'm sorry to hear about that, I respect that you can talk openly about it --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 10:30, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
In a case of "famous for one wrong statistic, but actually has quite a lot of useful, credible information", page 18/19: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf --91.142.139.3 (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Which statistic am I looking for? This actually looks quite good, it includes information on forced to penetrate which is often overlooked when people consider the sexual assault of males by females. That said, it still puts sexual assault of women higher statistically than men. e.g. "Nearly 1 in 2 women (44.6%) and 1 in 5 men (22.2%) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape at some point in their lives", "Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives", "Approximately 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime". It seems like a good study if you wanted to include a section on forced to penetrate (if that is what you want me to be looking at) but I'm not sure that it warrants reshaping the rape culture article so that it focuses on men rather than women. As I said repeatedly, I think we should include more information on men, but I do not think we should rewrite the article to focus on men --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 10:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The bit where they say 1.27M female and 1.267M male rape victims classed as forced to penetrate. Paints a pretty clear picture that rape is an equal opportunity crime, with males and females pretty much just as likely to be both victims and attackers. I never said we should rewrite the article to focus on men. In fact, that is the exact opposite of what I said. My beef here is that the article portrays a biased account on rape culture, takes it as fact, does not include criticism, and gleefully runs with the "blame the males" vibe that the term rape culture usually runs with. --91.142.139.3 (talk) 10:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, where is the actual man-blaming in the article? I pointed out how this article is not written for that above, but you seem to insist on it. Nullahnung (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Okay, well in that case I completely disagree. I do not get a "blame the males" vibe at all, although I do think we should improve coverage of male rape survivors, as the marginalisation of male rape survivors is a huge part of rape culture and probably the reason why rape is seen in the way that you describe. If it weren't for rape culture, male rape survivors would be taken more seriously by both the police and general media --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The article actually begins by detailing how rape culture affects male rape survivors:
"Rape culture informs our entire legal system, from legislating offenses, to criminal investigations, to the trial and punishment.
*Victims are defined and unofficially classified based on how well they conform to a (deeply offensive and sexist) specific set of standards. Standards which are almost always based on assumptions about women's value in general. A white virgin who has been beaten is a more proper victim than a Hispanic co-ed who has a boyfriend. Being raped by a stranger, vaginally is more titillating taken more seriously than being a male victim. The more "real" a rape is, largely informs how the investigators and litigators will deal with a case.
*Because of the overall sexism in rape culture, men do not get raped. That is, of course they get raped, but because of the way rape victims are seen by society, men who are raped are either ignored or labeled as sissy, or gay, or simply weak, in order to maintain the illusion that "men do not get raped". And in the same vein, women cannot rape men. Men, society teaches, are always horny, always seeking the next conquest and always ready for sex. So how could they be raped? -- Because of these very attitudes, society is extremely slow to address, much less change, the way male rape victims are treated. The FBI did not even classify male rape as rape until 2012."
I don't see how you can have a problem with the article as it stands based on its coverage of male rape survivors --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:21, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Never mind, it seems I'm repeating arguments made earlier on the talk page. I joined half way through the debate and engaged with you because I thought you cared about improving the coverage of male rape survivors in the article. I get the impression now that you just want to debunk the concept itself --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
And also, he somehow reads blame into sentences that don't have any blame. That's the impression I get anyway. Nullahnung (talk) 11:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I suggested a few times that we could work on improving the coverage of male rape survivors but they didn't seem interested. I don't see how the article as it stands could possibly stigmatise male rape survivors - it makes a number of references to them and how rape culture negatively affects men. The study provided was interesting and I'm probably going to be thinking about it for a few days but I don't see how it helps the IP editors case in any way (if anything the way that legal systems treat made to penetrate cases should be included as further evidence for rape culture) --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
When I rearranged how the article is laid out, i focused specifically on men because as all of us have said, RAPE CULTURE IS EXACTLY WHY MEN DO NOT COME FORWARD. We do not deny, and I think do a better job of highlighting male victims than most pages. WE do not toss them in as an after-though or "token 'oh, they are raped men, too", but focus on the damage to men when society says "Males are so horny, how can they be raped. they always want it!" (at least for forced to penetrate type rape). and if you are raped by another man, society treats you equally bad for different reasons. (many of which are tied into homophobia, which might be important to add).One tin soldier (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
It's quite possible that they haven't read the article properly and that it is the concept of rape culture itself that they are opposed to (and possibly misunderstand as, like you said, rape culture largely concerns male rape survivors and is documented as such in most books that use the term) --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I never claimed that the article dismisses male victims, I claimed that it primarily focuses, by either direct implication, omission, or failure to address common criticism, the image of the rapist being male and, secondarily, the victim being female. From a site like rationalwiki, that prides itself in fairly objective reasoning and debunking, I'd have expected a better coverage. Again, where is the criticism section? The only peep about dissent I can find in this entire article is the "some males feel offended at being called responsible for rape culture". Where is the mention of the YesAllWomen tag? Why is the idea of rape culture automatically accepted as true here? The very first line of the article states that "Rape culture is a term used to describe the ways in which a society trivializes, rationalizes, and even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence, despite being nominally against rape or classifying the acts as crimes", while that other wiki starts with a pretty unbiased "Rape culture is a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society, and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape". Furthermore, nearly a third of the other wiki's article is devoted to criticism and challenging the current understanding. Do you see the difference? All I hear from you is "yes, men have it tough too, because of rape culture", and it's being repeated over and over again. Why, then, is half the opening paragraph devoted to misoginy and the control of WOMEN'S bodies? Why is the article still what it is, but I see this entire talk page full of links that clearly demistify that "some number of male rape victims" and point out the gender-specific weight of responsibility? I see I'm not the first one to notice the bias in this article...
As I said before, reword the article so that it defines rape culture as an often challenged concept instead of a confirmed scientific theory or model, add a criticism section to explain the dissent, and remove the 1-in-4 bull.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:28, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
(EC)You keep repeating that OUR ARTICLE implies that men are the rapists and women are the victims, which I don't see how you could come to that conclusion logically. Here's the deal. The CONCEPT of rape culture says that rape culture implies men as the rapists and women as the victims, which is why people influenced by rape culture have a hard time dealing with the thought that these roles could be reversed. And that concept is what this article is written about. THAT is why the opening paragraph is about control of women's bodies, because that is what the influence of rape culture - which implies men as the rapists and women as the victims, which is wrong - does.
It is not our article in itself that implies men as the rapists and women as the victims. In fact, our article actively argues for a very different attitude towards the concept as seen in this quote here:
"Discussing or admitting that rape culture exists does not mean anyone believes men think rape is somehow a good or valued thing. Nor does it mean that someone is accusing you of being a rapist. Discussing the fact that in America 1/4 of women[15] and some difficult-to-pin-down number of men have been raped or sexually harassed does not mean anyone thinks 1/4 of men have raped someone. But it does mean a culture exists which makes it hard for victims to come forward, to talk, or to heal. And, the very fact that a culture informs the thoughts, feelings and behaviors of a society does mean that all people in a rape culture carry some aspect of it in their personality"
As for the statistics referenced in the article being bull, I was not involved in the making of the statistic and I don't see any evidence confirming that it is bull or not, so I can't comment on that. Nullahnung (talk) 13:21, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I don't really understand how adding a lengthy criticism section debunks the idea that men are raped less frequently than women or that the article is concerned primarily with female rape survivors and male perpetrators. In fact, rape culture itself is responsible for this idea. Your reasoning for a much more skeptical restructuring of the article is not really backed up by your arguments here. Even if the article did focus significantly more on female rape survivors, something that I don't think it backed up by any of your extracts posted from it, then I think adding more criticism rather than more content that focuses on male rape survivors is not a particularly good compromise --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

^^THOSE TWO posts^^! it's not our article you disagree with, clearly. it's rape culture. it's society telling the rest of society (yes, that's circular - welcome to socilization) that women are raped and men are rapists. One tin soldier (talk) 14:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
The intellectual dishonesty here is strong. You have now, for the third time, intentionally attacked my position as a strawman and misconstrued my meaning. Never, in my entire argument, have I said that the article focuses too much on female rape survivors. What I did say, and allow me to say it again with some different words this time in hopes that you'll finally get it, was that the article does nothing to challenge the way rape culture is understood; that men are rapists, the women are victims, and it's up to the men to change this. Yes, One Tin Soldier, it is this concept of rape culture that I disagree with. The article presents the concept as an unchallenged fact of life, which is something that I feel is not only dishonest and biased, but actually harmful to society, and is, in my opinion, likely to result in an increased occurence of rape. Nullahung, you are the most intellectually dishonest one here. The fact that you still claim that you do not have the tools to judge if the 1-in-4 statistic is bull or not, even though I have submitted evidence to the contrary that was in no way challenged baffles me. The fact that you are happy to leave this unsupported factoid up there in the article without any way of backing it up clearly tells me that you have no business being an editor on a site such as this. Your "nuh-uh!" replies are entirely uncited and bear no relation to the article at hand. You stated that "The CONCEPT of rape culture says that rape culture implies men as the rapists and women as the victims, which is why people influenced by rape culture have a hard time dealing with the thought that these roles could be reversed", and yet you see no need to try and debunk this belief in the article, as if you're quite happy with your non-rapist lot in life, and see no reason for it to change and endanger your status. --91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Please don't insult people in this relatively civil discussion, as that leads to escalation, thanks.
First of all, you claim that our article's view of rape culture says "it's up to the men to fix it", which is an assertion you need to back up with specific quotes from the article. YOU have the burden of evidence here, not me. When I say the article says something I usually back that up with a quote, you need to start doing the same.
Second of all, what I meant about the 1-in-4 statistic was that I have not seen any evidence of that statistic at all, either directly addressing it or directly supporting it, from the CDC. What I mean with that is that the people who have put forward the 1-in-4 statistic I would appreciate if they provided evidence about it. Of course you have provided a link to a statistic from the CDC that appears to be in conflict with the 1-in-4 statistic, so using your statistic instead of the statistic we currently have is a possible outcome of this discussion and I would be happy to implement that once this discussion is over. And that's me clarifying my position in more words than I have previously used. Satisfied about this point?
Third of all, I am apparently, if I understand your last point right, a rookie skeptic who has no clue how to debunk a concept (and apparently that disqualifies me from being an editor on this site). Please show me how, then, o person who apparently has much greater critical thinking skills than me. Nullahnung (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
No offense IP, but continuously calling people in the thread intellectually dishonest is not really helping your stance here, neither was titling the section 'Man-hating' and using red pill imagery. If anything asserting your argument as the only correct one and insulting other contributors to the article is not the sign of somebody who has a genuinely good argument. Reading through, you only really presented your argument clearly mid-way through the thread, at which point it was probably presumed by some that you were close to strawmen associated with this topic. After all, we get a lot of people who would fit that definition come here. Anyway, I believe it does cover the male-focused facets of rape culture pretty clearly, I gave some examples in article that do earlier. That said, I'm sure people would be happy to include more content about male rape survivors in the article. Why are you repeatedly pushing for criticism on rape culture when we could improve the coverage of male rape survivors? Isn't that exactly what you want? Also, what do you mean by "quite happy with your non-rapist lot in life"? I am male myself and I know that the theory of rape culture itself doesn't automatically presume that men are rapists. If there is any strawman argument it is that one --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:58, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I think his position is expressed most clearly in this quote from him: "the article does nothing to challenge the way rape culture is understood; that men are rapists, the women are victims, and it's up to the men to change this."
In answer to that position I, you and others have said that, yes, rape culture perpetuates labeling men as rapists and women as victims, and that is wrong. We have also said that it's not "up to the men to change this", if anything, it is just a problem of society in general. This is what IP just doesn't seem to understand, our article's ACTUAL view of rape culture. Nullahnung (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree, I wish the IP had come here with a less confrontational and sensationalist attitude, this discussion would have ended quite quickly if we had been able to discuss it calmly --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Attitude is warranted when my points are being ignored or intentionally misconstrued. I have already provided four page quotes, only for them to be dismissed and ignored. This doesn't exactly provide me with an incentive to go and dig around the article again. The article is gender biased and has several factual errors. I have outlined some of the bias and provided a citation for one of these errors. If you think I'm in error here, read this discussion again.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 12:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
And I could say the same, that you have been ignoring or intentionally misconstruing my points, and that is indeed the way I feel, but I am still for civility in terms of avoiding insults. As I said, the citation you provided seems good and using it to replace the disputed 1-in-4 statistic is a possible outcome of this discussion. Nullahnung (talk) 13:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Excellent. Moving on... when have I misconstrued any of your points?--91.142.139.3 (talk) 13:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
You asserted: "The fact that you are happy to leave this unsupported factoid up there in the article without any way of backing it up"
I never said that. I said I don't know anything and have not seen anything directly related to that statistic, so I don't feel comfortable joining the discussion on that one. That means I am waiting for other people to bring links in front of me that are directly related to said statistic, so I can make up my mind on how it came to be.
Anything I have meant to say about the article I have supported with quotes from said article to show you how you've misinterpreted the article. I feel like I'm being ignored on those efforts. Nullahnung (talk) 13:20, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
A Real Libertarian already commented on those, especially with the line "a token 'men get raped too' doesn't change the tone of the entire article" (paraphrasing). I saw no point in saying something he already said, especially since his entire input in this conversation has been flat-out ignored.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Ignored? We have two direct replies to A Real Libertarian directly under said post.
And I also have another reply that would address A Real Libertarian's post later down the line, let me just quote myself: "You keep repeating that OUR ARTICLE implies that men are the rapists and women are the victims, which I don't see how you could come to that conclusion logically. Here's the deal. The CONCEPT of rape culture says that rape culture implies men as the rapists and women as the victims, which is why people influenced by rape culture have a hard time dealing with the thought that these roles could be reversed. And that concept is what this article is written about. THAT is why the opening paragraph is about control of women's bodies, because that is what the influence of rape culture - which implies men as the rapists and women as the victims, which is wrong - does."
I originally wrote that to tell you how you've misinterpreted the article, but it goes for A Real Libertarian as well. Nullahnung (talk) 13:43, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
So... let me get this straight... (even though I have already replied to this particular quote)... You think that the the concept of rape culture enforces the commonly held belief that men rape and women are raped, and you think that the opening paragraph of the article echoes this paradigm... as a joke?--91.142.139.3 (talk) 14:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I dispute your claim that the opening paragraph echoes the paradigm perpetuated by rape culture. Also, I was not saying anything about a joke. Nullahnung (talk) 23:35, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
You mean the part that says "steeped in institutionalized misogyny, having at its core cultural features of a society that is defining, politicizing, and ultimately controlling women's bodies"? Nobody is saying that rape culture doesn't affect women, they are saying that it affects women and men. I'd prefer it if we didn't minimalise the experiences of either... --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the problem here is that you are arguing for two very different things. On the one hand, you vehemently oppose the cultural notion that men are not sexually assaulted, or that it is only women who are sexually assaulted, something that makes it difficult for male rape survivors to come forward to the police or talk about their experiences as rape survivors. On the other hand, you seem to think that the concept of rape culture used by theorists is responsible for the idea that men are not sexually assaulted, something that is largely at odds with how the term is used to describe this aspect of society. That is to say, rather than rape culture itself being responsible for this idea, you are arguing that it is the theoretical concept that is, correct? I don't know where you got this idea from, that is to say, that the concept of rape culture used in theory is responsible for the notion that men are not sexually assaulted, as the term is used to describe both female and male rape survivors. I definitely agree with you that the experiences of male rape survivors are made light of in society, but I have no idea why you feel that criticising the terminology in which this societal framework is described in any way helps male rape survivors --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
(OP/IP here) Oh boy, this will be fun.
"Nobody is saying that rape culture doesn't affect women." I agree. One can also note that I never once said nor implied that rape culture does or does not affect women, or should or should not. Pro tip: when in doubt about wether or not someone said "rape culture doesn't affect women", look at their post and see if you can find the words 'rape', 'culture', 'doesn't', 'affect', and 'women' right next to each other. It's a dead giveaway in most situations.
Moving on...
"I think the problem here is that you are arguing for two very different things." I am arguing two things, and it was my mistake for even mentioning the second, as it is a subset of the first, and you're clearly not ready to discuss the second if you discount the first. My main point is that the article is badly written, biased, at times factually wrong, and does not offer a dissenting opinion. It takes the idea of rape culture, presents it as pretty much a fact of life, and even uses it to further reinforce ideas such as "institutionalized misogyny" and "controlling women's bodies". Furthermore, my second point is that I think the idea (note that I said idea, as opposed to phenomenon; the two are not the same) of rape culture is insulting to both men and women, victim and otherwise, and is actively harmful to society in general by potentially releasing rapists of responsibility because they're just "products of their culture". --93.141.74.202 (talk) 15:21, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, in that case, you should probably have explained what exactly in the introduction you had an issue with rather than being so vague. The notion of confronting rape culture isn't to release rapists of responsibility, it's to encourage rape survivors to go forward to the police about their sexual assaults and to try to improve the way in which society treats rape survivors after the crime. Many instances of sexual assault go unreported. Rape culture is the notion is that society itself is responsible for this --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:32, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
"Rape culture is the notion is that society itself is responsible for this" If that is the totality of what rape culture is, the article does not agree with you.--93.141.74.202 (talk) 15:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Well no, not really, it's a little more complicated than that. I'm just giving an example of one aspect of it that differs from your assertion that it releases rapists of responsibility --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 16:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
And I suppose that Agent Orange is just a herbicide and, since being a herbicide is its intended notion, it should not be banned just because someone claims it has some negative effects on humans, right?--93.141.74.202 (talk) 16:55, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Your analogy is inconsistent and repulsive --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
"I definitely agree with you that the experiences of male rape survivors are made light of in society, but I have no idea why you feel that criticising the terminology in which this societal framework is described in any way helps male rape survivors".
From Page 17 of the CDC's National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010 "How NISVS Measured Sexual Violence":
Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.
- Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.
- Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.


Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.
- Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus.
- Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen."
Can you see the problem? If rape is hidden behind nice, safe euphemisms like "made to penetrate" then rape is much harder to stop.
"Torture" is a monstrous deprivation of human rights, "Enhanced Interrogation" is being a bit rough with the bad guys to save lives.
"Slavery" is the most debased and extreme loss of freedom imaginable, "Property Rights" are the basis of civilization and justice.
"Genocide" is most evil action humanity has come up with in thousands of years of bloodletting, "Final Solution" is permanently getting rid of a problem instead of just cutting it down a bit and waiting for it to break again.
"Rape" is a horrific act of violence that can never be justified, "Made To Penetrate" is no big deal, just a slightly uncomfortable experience.
Words have the power to both destroy and create... be careful with them. --A Real Libertarian (talk) 03:30, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
You mistake what I meant by "the terminology in which this societal framework is described". Again, by the prevalent definition of rape culture, the minimalisation of male rape survivors would be due to societal reasons, not theorists who use the term rape culture in their papers or articles. In other words, that is just more evidence of rape culture and how it negatively affects men --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 07:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

So what about rape culture are you actually denying exists?

  • Rape is a tool used to socially control behaviors, especially in women, but also in gay men.
  • Victims of rape are largely disrespected, especially if the victim is not a pure white virgial woman, but is very sexually active, black or a male. "a victim's value as a victim is directly associated with how well they fill the image created by society of a rape victim".
  • an industry of romance novels for women, and porn for men exits around the idea of taking a woman without her consent, to somehow show her how good you are.
  • a policing and litigation industry that belittles victims of rape.
  • a media that is unapologetic in exploiting rape stories to paint their characters in particular ways (especially women cops).
  • Per the CDC, one in five women experience rape or attempted rape or sexual harrassment in their lives. Lots of men experience it as well.
  • The story told about rape is that men are the rapists and women get raped. It would be near to impossible to convict a woman of raping a man if they both went home to his house and made out, and he said "stop". It might or might not be hard to convict a women in the same circumstance, but a man would be nearly impossible because the story says "men always want sex".
  • Rape victims who are part of a relationship were told for the majority of our history, to "live with it" or "work it out".
  • There is a myth that most rape alligations are false, when the reality is 3-8% of women or men make false claims. about the same as any other crime.
  • Rape scenes in movies are often filmed in such a way that heightens the sexual aspects of the crime, and not the violence. Rape scenes often are in low lighting, with titalating shots of breasts and thighs, and erotic blood or sweat trails.

I could go on, but apparently it's time for dinner!One tin soldier (talk) 02:21, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

There are a fair number of points on this list that I think are not true.
  • Rape is a tool used to socially control behaviors, especially in women, but also in gay men. This is the big one that I simply don't see any local evidence for. Yes, there are societies where rape is apparently encouraged and organized by local leaders and groups of organized gangs as a punishment. Those places are distant and tribal and not like around here, and I know of no evidence of any such things in Europe or the Americas. If there have been, and there might, I see no evidence of general cultural approval; and the handful of notorious US coverups all involved sports or celebrities, and are therefore atypical. I would cheerfully concede that fear of rape controls many women's lives here, but these cautions don't seem to be willed by society or the men in it; it doesn't even benefit the 'patriarchy'. What, exactly, is the evidence for this claim?
  • a policing and litigation industry that belittles victims of rape. People accused of crimes are entitled to a defense. This is a bedrock principle I would not see weakened at all, and one reason why I see the idea of "rape culture" as authoritarian and prosecutorial.
  • a media that is unapologetic in exploiting rape stories to paint their characters in particular ways (especially women cops). Are we talking about fictional characters here? The relationship between themes in fictional stories and social values is... complicated. The contents of porn and romance fiction are fantasy; and politicizing somebody's fantasy life is itself aggressively authoritarian.
  • There is a myth that most rape alligations are false, when the reality is 3-8% of women or men make false claims. about the same as any other crime. So maybe somewhere around one in twenty accusations is false. Again, the accused get to defend themselves, cross examine witnesses, and have the assistance of a lawyer. Preserving these principles trumps "rape culture".
So, yes, at least some of the "rape culture" ideas continue to seem to me to be false, unproven, or argued from the contents of published fantasy rather than social reality. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 02:56, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
"Your analogy is inconsistent and repulsive" I understand that you'd describe something you disagree with as repulsive in order to acquire internet points, but how is it inconsistent?
P.S. Where did 80% of the talk page go?
EDIT: nm, didn't see the archive link, lol.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
You think that the way the term rape culture is used by theorists has caused comparable societal damage to a herbicidal warfare program? I don't know how you can possibly say that if you have seen the pictures from Vietnam --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Wow. If that is all you are able to gather from an analogy, then person of unspecified gender and familial relation to me, you need to brush up on your comprehension skills.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:29, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
"I'm just giving an example of one aspect of it that differs from your assertion that it releases rapists of responsibility"
"And I suppose that Agent Orange is just a herbicide and, since being a herbicide is its intended notion, it should not be banned just because someone claims it has some negative effects on humans, right?"
What exactly is it that I'm missing here? It seems like you are connecting the use of rape culture to herbicide orange directly --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 08:04, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
At this point I can only assume that you are either being intentionally dense, or are genuinely incapable of comprehending my meaning. As this has proven to be somewhat of a trend with you in this discussion, I must conclude that communicating with you is pointless, so I'll refrain from doing so in the future.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if you did go voluntarily, you don't seem to have anything to contribute to the website and your bigoted attitude makes it impossible to work with you --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 10:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
...w3-8% of women or men make false claims. about the same as any other crime. If that figure is correct, that would mean that the rate of false reports is two to five times larger than for other comparable crimes (which floats between 1.5 to 2%). Here's one link to confirm that: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf --91.142.139.3 (talk) 11:04, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
So.... one month later, and nothing's changed in the article. Still as bad and biased as before. Should I start writing up a new version and hope someone won't just revert it? --91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:05, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

[edit] #yesallwomen

One of the main points of "yesallwomen" is that rape culture and the institutionalized misogyny are so common, that all women have experienced it at some time. The problematic side to addressing it, though, is that just because of the way society paints our roles, and the fact that we are first and foremost creatures of society, and that we have a very hard time escaping society, odds are, virtually all men have harassed women probably with out even being aware of it - and likely when they were first learning roles as teen agers. Same is true with white women having likely judged or discriminated against women of color; hearing persons discriminated against deaf, etc. The point of intersectionality, "yes all women", and discussions of rape culture are not to point fingers, but to begin to say "how have i been shaped by society, such that my behaviors are reinforcing things I might want to change." But as long as people are defense to that change, and cannot understand that odds are at one time in their lifes, they've looked at a woman's boobs and whistled, or they have cat called, or they have pulled her down for an unwanted kiss cause that's what you do - (and this goes for every majority group about the way we understand and treat minorites) - as long as our defensiveness drives us, then yesallwomen will remain all women. (sorry for the soap box and not an actual talking point about the article, but I'm kinda getting tired of fighting someone's defensiveness, someone's need to deny reality for the sake of making sure men are not blamed. Men have controlled society for 10,000 years, so yes, there is more than a little blame to go around.One tin soldier (talk)

Women experience misogyny, and men experience misandry. Not they are not the same or equivalent, but the prevalenthece of disrespectful behaviour does not have to be caused by culture per se, making the conclusion that misogyny is "institutionalized" unwarranted. I personally believe that misogyny *is* institutionalized, but not to the same degree as you suggest, and for different reasons that paint a far more complex picture. You will always be able to find some argument to cloth your opinion (which is why rational wiki exists -- to find sound arguments), which can make a good faith discussion on the issue difficult because it is always tempting not to listen to what others are trying to say. After-all, you have all the answers, and the others are just "wrong". The notion that men have (only) controlled society for 10,000 years is a howler. I recommend that you read Merlin Stone's "When God was a Woman", and then Eller's "The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory" back-to-back, and ask yourself what the evidence rationally suggests. That's a clue to the point that you may be living in your own bubble when it comes to this issue. Microbox (talk)

15:27, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

"not to point fingers" ... "there is more than a little blame to go around." What a wonderfully consistent line of reasoning.
"Men have controlled society for 10,000 years, so yes, there is more than a little blame to go around." So to rectify that, women should control everything for 10 000 years, and in the year 12014, we will finally be able to have an egalitarian society?--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it's useful to blame anyone, and it's not like anyone is a deserved target of any blame either, since this is a societal phenomenon (yes yes, we can keep on blaming the rapists, but that is a blame that we distribute for their individual actions, not a blame we distribute for the phenomenon of rape culture). You also do not rectify a situation by overcompensating and doing it wrong the other way around, you rectify it by making things as they should be in the first place. Nullahnung (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Finally we agree on something.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 10:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I, for one, welcome our new feminazi overlords. WèàšèìòìďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
At the very least, it's unlikely that they could do a worse job --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Hardly anyone seriously uses the word feminazi anymore nowadays unless MRA or ignorant. Nullahnung (talk) 00:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
It's been ridiculous since Limbaugh first used it. It doesn't surprise me that MRAs like it so much though --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 00:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I've never heard it used in a serious manner.--91.142.139.3 (talk) 06:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
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