Talk:Raw milk movement

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This Diet woo related article has been awarded BRONZE status for quality. It's getting there, but could be with improvement.

This article is of HIGH importance to the wiki.

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[edit] Listeria

Listeria is one of the bacterial strain known to be a contaminant in raw milk. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listeria. Hamster (talk) 03:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip-off. I've added it. Lord of the Goons The official spikey-haired skeptical punk 03:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Wait, raw milk contains mouthwash? ħumanUser talk:Human 09:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Germ theory denial

I'm flicking through the webshites and can't find a direct reference to this. It would be useful. They do sometimes misunderstand it, howver. Scarlet A.pngpostate 20:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it could be changed, then. I actually cut that portion from the "Raw milk" subsection that used to be in our Raw foodism article when I merged it with my original stuff to make a normal article. Punky Your mental puke relief 22:05, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Nevermind, I found an example we can use until or unless we find a better example. Gooniepunk2010 Oi! Oi! Oi! 22:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Not Always Dangerous

I've been drinking and using raw milk for several years now and have never experianced any ill effects of raw milk. Milk only becomes laden with bacterial crap when cows are kept on massive commerical dairy farms in poor conditions. If they are given a healthy diet and kept in good conditions then the raw milk is safe. More importantly too, raw milk tastes alot better!--BenB (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Just because you haven't experienced any ill effects doesn't make it safe.--MJMelcher (talk) 18:16, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Never said it all was. I said it CAN be safe as long as it is done properly. I would be lothe to drink raw milk from most factory farms but from a farm that specializes in it it can be. I have been drinking it for five years. You would think it may have made me sick at least once wouldnt you?--BenB (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

There have been hospitalizations due to bacteria in milk from farms that specialize in raw milk. If I find a person who has been having unprotected sex for years, and has not had an STD, does that make it safe?--MJMelcher (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I remember a case in the UK where a Scottish farmer was complaining about enforced pasteurisation of his cows' milk even though bacterial assays showed that his unpasteurised product had less bacteria than commercial pasteurised milk. A lot of it is due to poor animal husbandry, one of the side effects of having to deliver to a low-priced mass-market. And unprotected sex is safe withih the confines of a stable monogamous relationship.  Lily Inspirate me. 18:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I will quote PalMD on his blog as my retort, "It would be lovely if any of that were true, but it's not. Of course, it's not the milk per se that makes you sick but the bacteria in it. "Grass-fed milk" does not have any magical antibiotic properties, and consuming "pro-biotics" will not protect you from Campylobacter, E. coli, or other common milk-borne pathogens." - PalMD
Conservative Punk (talk) 06:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah Unprotected sex can be safe as long as you are smart about your partners. Thats the point I was trying to make. Raising your animals well will yield healthy and safe drinking milk. Factory farms do more harm than good--BenB (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

You're right. No farm specializing in raw milk has ever caused an outbreak of disease linking to the raw milk. Conservative Punk (talk) 06:20, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Anybody else get the urge to hit "edit" and italicise E. coli in that article? ħumanUser talk:Human 22:09, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
"State investigators went back to the Michael Hartmann farm in Gibbon a second time last Wednesday to collect more samples, confiscate financial records, and document what they allege are unsanitary conditions on the farm." And your point is what exactly?  Lily Inspirate me. 07:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
In the context in which I wrote it, it was my backup to the fact that, just because it's from a so-called "family farm," it doesn't make it any better than from a so-called "factory farm." Hartmann's farm was a family farm, but did that make it more sanitary than an agribusiness? No. In fact, in this case, it was quite the opposite. Conservative Punk (talk) 07:50, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
CP's point is pretty solid here. ħumanUser talk:Human 08:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
(EC) It has nothing to do with whether it is a family farm or not, the point is that poor practices contributed to the outbreak. I'm not saying that all raw milk production is good quality, it depends entirely on the farmer. Even when food is cooked there are cases of food poisoning caused by subsequent cross-contamination, i.e. poor practices or conditions. Unfortunately the scale of mass-production makes it more difficult to maintain a high standard across the board, so the majority of milk does need to be pasteurised. That does not mean that some (but not all) small-scale producers can not produce milk that has not been contaminated, just like any other foodstuff.  Lily Inspirate me. 09:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) While you make a valid point there, Lily, it's just that milk production is an inherently filthy industry. Pasteurization was the fix for contamination that occurred at the cow. The only way to go about it, other than disinfecting the milk like pasteurization, would be to milk the cow in a "clean room" setting, similar to an operating room. The only problem there, however, is that that still doesn't fix the problem of bacteria and viruses excreted by the cow itself into the milk. The Goonie Punk Can't sleep, clowns will eat me! 20:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Just because you HAVE experienced an ill effect doesn't make it unsafe. And I am talking about pasteurized milk here; there have been many reports of sicknesses coming from pasteurized milk. This article makes me laugh; it takes the point of view of pasteurized milk as the standard, when it is raw milk that is the standard, from which we get pasteurized milk. I would like to point out that the human race existed before Louis Pasteur, and that they weren't dropping dead from milk. The fact that raw milk is 'laden' with bacteria comes from studies on milk taken from factory cows, which are raised in nasty environments and thus produce nasty milk that has to be pasteurized. I drink raw milk that comes from cows that graze on beautiful, natural, CLEAN fields. And yes, just because I haven't experienced any ill effects DOES make it safe. That's the very definition of safe.— Unsigned, by: 98.70.180.6 / talk / contribs
And there are people who've NOT gotten vaccinated who've not contracted smallpox, but does that make NOT getting vaccinated safe? The funniest part is that you accuse the article of using the POV of pasteurized milk as the standard (IT IS!!!) and then you attack it with your own POV, when we all know that double-blind scientific research (as has been done numerous times on pasteurized milk) is far stronger than your, and the raw milk movement in general's, anecdotal evidence. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 04:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
You are aware that about 99% of milk before pasturzation was turned into cheese, not drunk? --Revolverman (talk) 00:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh, silly children!--Token Conservative (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] This article's rank on google

This article is in the top 10 pages on google for "raw milk movement" searches. AnarchoGoon Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living 22:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Dunno what of, but it needs MOAR to be a good bronze - David Gerard (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps it needs a bit of work still. I will hack away at it once these thunderstorms roll in in a few hours. Punky Your mental puke relief 22:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Real life example of consuming raw milk section

Looks like baseless anecdotal evidence to me. Unless someone can clarify what's presented in that paragraph and back it up with trustworthy citations, I'm inclined to unleash ti completely. Especially since it's somewhat incoherent. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 04:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

To clarify: farmers usually check their milk for taste to ensure the cow doesn't eat the wrong stuff when they aren't looking, due to their perception that what the cow eats reflects in the taste of the milk. When the milk are usually collectively (from multiple farms) pasteurized, some (especially of the older generations) would do QA by tasting the raw milk (at least before they got money for fancy testing equipment anyway).
In addition, how would the milk be tested for quality before pasteurization is known? K61824"6+18=24" 00:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

[edit] High priority

We are the #1 ranking on google for the search "raw milk movement" and the highest ranking skeptical website for related search terms. I'd say making this a great article and keeping it that way should be a priority. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 05:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Some info of farm that sells milk that is not heat treated

Omoiyari Farm (Japanese) K61824CP≠Child Porn? 00:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Boundaries blurred here

"Raw milk" redirects here, which is misleading. The existence of a woo-peddling "raw milk movement" notwithstanding, there remains a large set of people throughout the US, Europe and much of the rest of the world who neither treat it as a political issue nor suffer from consuming it - the milk and its products taste better without pasteurization. This article is grossly lacking in scientific honesty. One would expect anything even nearly as dangerous as raw milk is presented as being to result in something more than 150 illnesses per year and two deaths in eleven years (From 1998 to 2009, that led to 1,837 illnesses, two resulting in death.) in a population of three hundred million (see the same link for an estimate of the prevalence of unpasteurized milk further warranting this) - but you're literally fifty thousand times more likely to die from falling. Calling out woo surrounding raw milk is laudable. Treating said woo as an inextricable part of raw milk consumption is preposterous. I am putting this up for feedback before proceeding with a total rewrite. Frostbyte (talk) 20:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that information in the article is all correct. Let me posit the following to you: while 300 million people do live in the United States, how many of said population consume raw milk? Now, contrast that with how many that do not and calculate a ratio of those who are harmed by raw milk versus those who do not consume it but are harmed by pasteurized milk. A total re-write would be stupid and against what RationalWiki does. People aren't coming here to learn what raw milk is; they are coming here to find out whether raw milk is really as wonderful and miraculous as their chiropractor or the internet at-large said it was. If you want something with a neutral point of view, something that sugar-coats the stupidity that is the raw milk movement, you are clearly in the wrong place. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:33, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, you creatively and cleverly left out the fact that it not just the harm that comes from consuming raw milk, but that the New Agers think (like they do everything else) that is is some sort of wonder drug. It is not. And once again, we provide articles like this to tease out the bullshit from the facts, not to present it in a way that is at all kind to woomeisters. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 07:36, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Raw chicken

"Due to the possibility of unprocessed raw milk containing pathogens such as bovine tuberculosis, brucellosis, or salmonella, most medical authorities consider raw milk to be rather dangerous, much like eating raw chicken" Is it really that dangerous? I thought raw chicken was one of the more dangerous products out there. Landmartian (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] An Org otherwise not mentioned

Came across this: http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/raw-milk.html The Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund is associated with the Weston A. Price group, most of the FTCLDF legal work is about reducing restrictions on Raw Milk Trade. I figured this could expand points onto the page for claims made, or if the group can be added to the category page for list of Food Woo groups. 86.155.65.240 (talk) 14:57, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Their latest news item is about Ron Paul introducing legislation. They're a defunct food woo group. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 15:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
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