Talk:Richard Dawkins

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[edit] Hipocrite

This editor has removed a full quote claiming it "misrepresents the point".[1] How can a lengthy quote misrepresent a point? What is Dawkins point that I misrepresent? Of course, this editor "Hipocrite" is simply lying. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 12:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you the guy who's been trying to slip in the Lewontin Fallacy stuff all over the place? If so, go eat a bag of cocks, okay? Did he doubt/Or did he try? 12:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
It's hilarious that you "rational" people have censor Dawkins. Please rename to "PCwiki". 175.193.212.64 (talk) 12:56, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
DRINK Hipocrite (talk) 13:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
We'll need a chaser for that one. VOXHUMANA 13:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
What an earth is that supposed to mean, you assholes. This website is an embarrassment. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 13:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I know you are but what am I? Hipocrite (talk) 13:35, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi groupthink. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 13:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I've come to talk with you again? I don't think engaging with Mr Mikemikev is in anyone's interest. Hipocrite (talk) 13:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
But you're an established liar, so why should anyone listen to you? 175.193.212.64 (talk) 14:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
While I appreciate Nutty's comment, let me add another quote from The Ancestor's Tale:
... I believe race is yet another of the many cases where we don't need discontinuous categories [having previously shown them to be misguided and erroneous], and where we should do without them unless an extremely strong case in their favour is made.
Dawkins' quote about taxonomic significance really applies to much smaller groups than "black", "white", "yellow" or brown as the genetic diversity in Africa is as great (or perhaps greater) as the rest of the world. Attempting to insert Dawkin's race quote is stealth racism, as the underlying motive is obviously to reinforce the idea of there being differences in ability between RACES. The problem is that Dawkins is a scientist and his nuances get misused as a racial-wedge for political capital. Dawkins would be appalled to be represented as saying that there fundamental differences between humans based on their skin-colour or hair type. Redchuck.gif ГенгисmutatingModerator 14:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
No, the point applies to Black and East Asian etc. which you would know if you had read the book. And of course there are behavior differences between races, but that it irrelevant to representing Dawkins accurately. You are committing the moralistic fallacy. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 14:39, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I have a well-read copy of Dawkins' book on my desk and don't find the point about Blacks and East Asians; perhaps you are thinking of The Bell Curve? If you had actually travelled and seen a bit of the world then the mere notion of "Black" as some block classification is laughable. Redchuck.gif ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD memberModerator 15:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Ad hominem. If you had travelled you would know there is a major discontinuity between Burma and Bangladesh. But who cares what I have done? Does that change the truth value? The point is Dawkins has a view on race, and you are trying to override that with your personal opinion. And I know you are wrong, but who cares. You are arguing against Dawkins, and censoring his words from his own bio. Shame on you. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 15:16, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
My groupthink comment is directed toward rubbish like "I THOUGHT THIS WAS RATIONALWIKI!" My understanding is that the Lewontin Fallacy criticism is a legitimate position, albeit one that doesn't justify the kind of racism some urge. To be clear, I think this guy's edit is suspicious, but sure, Dawkins has a position on "race" and this is part of his articulation of it - there's a lot more of his response to Lewontin. There's a lot more to the current take on Lewontin in general. The use of a single quote without context doesn't come close to explaining it or giving any meaningful insight into the broader discussion. One of our prominent references to Lewontin's position accepts it unquestioningly. This impulse isn't surprising considering how rampant racism is in the US. I've seen white supremacists use this quote over and over to press people's base nature into swinging the other direction into being hoodwinked into believing there's some genetic justification for racism sufficient to support their pre-existing irrational and hateful biases. But it's not so simple. In any event, the broader point is clear enough - group genetic markers do have scientific significance, but they're purely statistical, do not correlate to the non-existent racial group characteristics bigots urge support discrimination (intelligence, physical strength, "craftiness" or any other contrived negative attributes, etc.), and, most importantly, don't justify suppositions about any particular individual. So, a major discontinuity between Burma and Bangladesh? Is it that Burma isn't Burma anymore? Or is it something that nobody needs to travel to see - that people and cultures look different from place to place? Yeah. It is. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 15:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Let's be clear about something: editors here are being irrational (to the point in many cases of simply lying). Calling your site "rational" doesn't automatically make your regulars rational.
You commit the morallistic fallacy: race classification leads to investigation of behavior differences therefore it is invalid. Irrational.
"Now to the question of race. What if I tell you Suzy is Chinese, how much is your prior uncertainty reduced? You now are pretty certain that her hair is straight and black (or was black), that her eyes have an epicanthic fold, and one or two other things about her. If I tell you Colin is ‘black’ this does not, as we have seen, tell you he is black. Nevertheless, it is clearly not uninformative. The high inter-observer correlation suggests that there is a constellation of characteristics that most people recognise, such that the statement ‘Colin is black’ really does reduce prior uncertainty about Colin. It works the other way around to some extent. If I tell you Carl is an Olympic sprinting champion, your prior uncertainty about his ‘race’ is, as a matter of statistical fact, reduced. Indeed, you can have a fairly confident bet that he is ‘black’." 175.193.212.64 (talk) 15:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Knowing someone's race pretty questionably "reduces prior uncertainty", and even then only as to phenotypic characteristics that have social significance only to racists. People in lots of ethnics groups have single eyelids - from Scandinavia to Africa to Central Asia to East Asia. People in lots of ethnics groups have very tightly curled hair. Some African folks have straight hair and green eyes. So what? Unless you're using the statistical prevalence of trait or genetic marker x to understand something meaningful like migratory routes of early through modern humans, what's the point? Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 16:16, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
(EC) Dawkins identification of race is solely on taxonomic grounds. Having long straight black hair says nothing about how someone will behave or how clever they are and trying to put those words into Dawkins' mouth isn't going to stand here. You're the one (BoN) being irrational because the construct of race as you apply it is irrelevant because it tells us nothing about the abilities, character or behaviour of any individual. While my loss of hair might be indicative of an increased risk of heart disease it is unrelated to how I might perform and interact in society. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science.Moderator 16:20, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Our friend gives himself away with If I tell you Carl is an Olympic sprinting champion, your prior uncertainty about his ‘race’ is, as a matter of statistical fact, reduced. Indeed, you can have a fairly confident bet that he is ‘black’ - here he directly equates "race" with "black" - i.e. skin colour is his primary race marker. He is using "Race" in a very different way. Innocent Bystander (talk) 16:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually that is a quote from The Ancestor's Tale. (See I have read it.) Redchuck.gif ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD memberModerator 16:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
So you were lying when you said Dawkins wasn't talking about black classification?
Whether the classification informs for genetic behavior differences is unsettled science (see for example James J. Lee 2010) and is besides the point. The classification is informative for some things and therefore biologically valid. This is Dawkins opinion, not mine. Yes, there are anomalies. That's why Dawkins talks in probabilistic terms. Taxonomic validity is defined by probabilistic informativity. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 16:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Um, who gives a fuck what Dawkins thinks? He's not the final arbiter of what counts as "knowledge," even though a few people here might think so. Show me multiple uses of the idea in the standard peer-reviewed scientific/academic literature and I might take you seriously. Right now, you're just quote-mining one guy who i know only for his work for a popular audience. Did he doubt/Or did he try? 17:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

No I am not quote mining and I am accurately representing his views. Please stop lying. Dawkins views are of course highly relevant for an article on Dawkins. If editors want to censor those views because they conflict with their own (dubious) opinions there is little I can do about that. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 17:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Dawkins views might be relevant to an article on Dawkins, I'll concede that, but I won't take it too seriously because you've tried to shoehorn that quote into other articles that have nothing to do with Dawkins. And since you understand there's nothing you can do about our desire to censor the views in question, you can just leave now. Did he doubt/Or did he try? 18:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Pathetic. I can only hope other editors disagree with your shameless bias. I know Dawkins would. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 18:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
BoN's quote mining misrepresents Dawkins. I'd suggest that he reread The Grasshopper's Tale because what Dawkins is saying is not that there is a substantive difference between different 'races' but that we have evolved to perceive some of difference. Many groups do like to discriminate against outsiders, and this applies equally to class or religion as much as race, where being slightly different is seen as undesirable. The Grasshopper's Tale itself refers to different 'races' of grasshoppers which are distinguished solely by their song and do not interbreed despite being genetically identical. As an evolutionary scientist Dawkins is querying why this might be; but he is most certainly not promoting the idea that our distinctions have any real merit. As I showed above, if Dawkins has a view on the validity of categorising humans by race, it is that for societal purposes it is totally irrelevant. Redchuck.gif ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you.Moderator 18:50, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
"The Grasshopper's Tale" can be read in full here. It's pretty clear that Dawkins is not talking about behavioral differences. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
This is the text I added to the article:
Dawkins supports the biological validity of the race concept, writing "We can happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes in forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn’t mean that race is of ‘virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance’. This is Edward’s point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."
So it was I that represented Dawkins view that it is not socially relevant, contrary to the dishonest claim of GK. Dawkins is explicitly agnostic on behavioral differences. This has no relevance to the point. These differences are not merely "perceived" (how could they be if they were not there), but are of genetic and taxonomic significance. Dawkins thinks race is a valid classification, that is all that is being said. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 19:38, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I think it's telling you bring up behavioral differences when nobody mentioned it. You oppose the biologically valid race concept for social and political reasons. That's not science. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 20:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
No you toe-rag, Dawkins makes no comment in The Ancestor's Tale about behavioural differences in humans so he cannot be called agnostic on the issue. The point that Dawkins makes is that in general the perceived differences are purely cosmetic, it is not that they have significance. Using the wrong turn of phrase is often enough to discriminate on a class or religious basis; any claimed difference is purely cultural not intrinsic. Likewise, some groups of humans often discriminate against others over petty visual differences such as colour of hair, shape of nose, or eyelid fold; like the grasshopper many have have developed individual predilections for certain features, but that does not mean that those features are related to personal characteristics, mental abilities or behaviour as you are bogusly asserting. The taxonomic differences which Dawkins thinks are useful are those which can reveal as susceptibility to certain diseases or which might illuminate the movement of humans in the past when there was much less interaction between social groups by mapping the genetic code. Like it or not, all "white" men are descended from people with pigmented skins, and there is also a good chance are that you are also a descendant of Genghis Khan. Redchuck.gif ГенгисpillagingModerator 20:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I did not assert that there was an established connection to behavior differences or edit the article to claim that, so you are lying (again). You find it hard to accept that Dawkins accepts the validity of race so now have to knock down a strawman connecting "behavioral differences" which is irrelevant to the point and which neither I nor Dawkins claimed. Are "behavioral differences" a necessary part of biological taxonomy? Pathetic. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 03:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
And yes, we are all descended from apes and fish too. Is this what you do when you cannot concede a point you have lost? Babble irrelevance? 175.193.212.64 (talk) 04:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
So it's true that Dawkins has become an agnostic, then? Did he doubt/Or did he try? 20:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the quote is fine with a bit of explanation that he's responding to Lewontin and without any claim that he "supports the biological validity of race," as that statement on its own is out of context enough to lend itself to the creepy racist interpretation that you wish. Someone just do this the right way and stop responding to this guy. This conversation is part groupthink, all sizzle, and no steak. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 20:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how explicitly stating that race is of genetic and taxonomic significance could be interpreted as anything other than support for its biological validity. The problem here is that Dawkins' views on this matter conflict with the diktats of the modern PC liberal establishment, which is what this website unthinkingly reflects. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 13:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
"Modern PC liberal establishment" And that's why nobody takes you seriously. Osaka Sun (talk) 07:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone on the FB page accused me of trying to be PC when it comes to gender issues. My response: "What's PC got to do with it? I don't care about that." EVDebs (talk) 07:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Question

"In July 2011, Rebecca Watson, the founder of Skepchick, [20] mentioned in a video blog how a man accosted her late at night after a conference. He followed her into an elevator and invited her to his hotel room for coffee (a euphemism for, well, more than just coffee). This made Watson uncomfortable and she suggested "guys, don't do that.""

Is there any guy on here who hasn't asked a girl out? Any guy on here who hasn't been rejected at least once? Clawclaw (talk) 03:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Not me, on account of my personality and washboard abs. Tielec01 (talk) 03:18, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
If that was all he was doing, ClawClaw, it probably wouldn't have been worth a mention. However, at 4AM in an enclosed space, that's kind of creepy and not respectful of someone's personal boundaries.
Kind of a simple point there. Don't miss it again. EVDebs (talk) 06:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
The origins behind "grabbing a coffee" is probably an interesting one. But come on, "Hey, wanna fuck?" is not the equivalent of asking a girl out. Osaka Sun (talk) 06:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Seriously, right? I mean, if a socially inept dipshit like me can figure out that what that guy did was uncool, most people trying to dodge the context have absolutely no excuse whatsoever. EVDebs (talk) 06:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
It's embarrassing that it's coming from the skeptical community, for that matter. Osaka Sun (talk) 07:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
(ec)even "asking her out" in a confined area with no escape is seroiusly bad mojo. Men have a hard time with "no". Story after story is written about how **some** men get very aggressive, even angry, when you say no. Name calling, angry voices are the least of it. No woman wants to ever say no in a bus or elevator on the fear taht she will get the "oh, fine, cunt. am i not good enough for you, you bitch". trust me, men do that. somewhat often. women learn to make their rejections as gentle as possible. as "non rejections" as possible. I never say "no", i say "oh, i have a husband, and we're happy, but thanks'. seriously. and it was like late at night, which is also not a great time to be hitting on strange women. Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 07:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I have often wondered if it would be good for the lulz to ask the person next to me on a long haul flight out on a date like 10 minutes into the trip; then get all awkward when they say no. Godot, when is a great time to be hitting on strange women. On a side note, hadn't they been chatting for several hours at a bar together? Tielec01 (talk) 07:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, they had. but she had left alone. he followed. she had not made any indications of going "up with her". When is a good time to hit on someone? When it is a safe environment for both parties. When you are not there for professional reasons. When it is a social event, not one where she is supposedly being valued for her ideas. Women are rarely accepted as "idea generators". much of what watson has written about this, talks about the feeling that many scientists have when they go to conventions - they are in a meat market, and they are the meat. It's demeaning. I guess it has to do with understanding that women feel the OBJECT of men's attention where men are not objectified in the same way, so don't get tired, frustrated or scared by being hit on. Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 08:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, just the other day I read a story about large groups of apocolyptic athiests gang raping large numbers of women in the third world, beating them, stoning them, etc. The athiests seemed to be proud of large numbers of people from their belief system supporting Hitler because he validated their rampant anti-semitism. There are large numbers of athiests moving into europe who believe they should live under a different set of laws, and that certain crimes, like abuse or in some cases murder, should not apply to them. Oh, wait, that was somebody else... Burkean (talk) 19:31, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Curiously, we have an article on the attitude you display. Needless to say, it's a fallacy.Octo8 (talk) 19:39, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought asking a woman if she wanted to have sex was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM rape, genital mutilation, apocolyptic violence, brutality; as opposed to just "not as bad as". My mistake... Burkean (talk) 21:51, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
That's the point: One has nothing to do with the other. So why bring this even up here?Octo8 (talk) 23:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Good point, but it's not any less rational than claiming sexism for someone asking about coffee in the middle of the night, or pointing out the ridiculous things muslims expect the people of England to put up with, when they came there. Oh, and when someone thinks somebody trying to forceably segregate the sexes is wrong, it's not islamophobia, whatever that might be construed to encompass. Burkean (talk) 00:41, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim Nobel prize controversy

Is anyone planning to add anything about the whole Muslim Nobel prize thing? I think it probably deserved a bit under criticisms, since it's made a lot of people within the atheist community criticize him quite heavily, and is quite possible to interpret as plain racism (though Dawkins denies that), but since I'm a new user, I don't want to blunder into adding something possibly controversial.


See for instance:

And the related "Who the hell do these Muslims think they are" tweet and general anti-Muslim stuff that skirts dangerously close to the rhetoric of the extreme right:

(Edit: Reformatted and expanded a little)

Joakim Ziegler (talk) 08:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Right, and if christians tried to segregate the genders at a debate, I'm sure that anyone who said "who the hell do these christians think they are" would probably be a bigot. You're a moron. Burkean (talk) 00:52, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

It sounds to me like you've got a handle on this. I recommend adding it yourself, using those links as citations. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] 08:23, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Oh man, I was hoping to get out of the hard work. But I'll see about that, then. Since it's a bit of a controversial topic, I'll probably want to do a bit more research on the back and forth. Thanks for the welcome, by the way. - Joakim Ziegler (talk) 08:30, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Endorsing Geert Wilders? That's pretty off the deep end. Either that or the guy just doesn't know how to operate Twitter. Scarlet A.pngsshole 16:57, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Geert Wilders supports gay marriage. So your definition of fascist is to say the least expansive. Whereas many if not most of the muslims calling him a fascist do not and say some quite interesting things about homosexuals. Considering that many new immigrants believe the law doesn't apply to them, that the host country should adapt to them or face consequences, I'd say it's fairly rational to say that those who refuse to accept the law should not be allowed to be citizens in the country. See what Wilders critics believe and see what he believes and then we'll decide who is fascist. Burkean (talk) 00:47, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I've created a first version of a subsection on this. I discovered even more examples as I researched a bit, enough to convince me that Dawkins has tipped over into full-fledged Islamophobia. I think I've supported that assertion quite well with sources, but comments would be welcome. Joakim Ziegler (talk) 16:51, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Is Dawkings really more critical of Islam than Christianity?--Coffee (talk) 20:53, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
It certainly seems that way, and his rhetoric on Islam is also dangerously close to that of racist and islamophobic nutcases. I've been a Dawkins fan for a couple of decades (I'm quickly becoming a non-fan), and though he's certainly been quite snarky, I can't remember him using this kind of generalizing and dehumanizing rhetoric about, say, Christians. Joakim Ziegler (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

So, saying that muslims shouldn't be allowed to segregate the genders during a debate taking place at an English University is a comment which is dangerously close to the extreme right. I think you forgot to take your meds. Burkean (talk) 00:49, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Of course. The 'extreme far right Nazi racist bigot etc.' is anybody that simply disagrees with the garbage from the anti normal White male clowns on this absurd website. 175.119.187.235 (talk) 06:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
He's actually got an odd sort of fondness for C of E Christianity which comes out occasionally, largely due to his upbringing. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 17:41, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
The other recent controversy which might be worth mentioning is his comments about "mild paedophilia". ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Not Sure Where to Put This

But Richard Dawkins was recently quoted as saying that sexual abuse isn't always harmful (link)

I've been interneting long enough to know not to take Salom seriously. — Unsigned, by: Naked Mongoose / talk / contribs 09:04, 23 April 2014‎ (UTC)

[edit] Apparently he sucks at writing about polyamory, too

Comments on something Dawkins wrote about polyamory against monogamy about jealosy and cheating in 2007: http://freethoughtblogs.com/godlessness/2014/09/06/about-that-green-eyed-monster-article-dawkins-wrote/ --ZooGuard (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] The Last Part of the Islamophobia section

While this man has said plenty of things that make him an Islamophobe I fail to see how the incident in the last part of this section (the part of the sex-segregation during a University debate) qualifies as Islamophobic. Alsto003 (talk) 22:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC) Alex

You don't see how "who the hell do these Muslims think they are?", " cowardly capitulation to Muslims?" or "some Muslim or other" could be construed as Islamophobic? Consider for a moment if you replaced "Muslims" with "Jews" - would you find nothing problematic about these phrases then? ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:07, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Dawkins totally echoed douchebag xenophobes in his complaints about the issue, and he really is an Islamophobe (and probably a Christophobe(sp?) while we're at it). However, he was right to criticize the sexism, and our reportage of this matter should condemn both the hatefulness of Dawkins and the sexism of those UCL douches. Rand0 (talk) 23:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I'll grant that his rhetoric was mildly islamophobic, for the first reason you pointed out. And as a Jew were he criticizing Jews for the issue on which he is criticizing Muslims (or more appropriately conservative Muslims) I would say that I would be mildly offended, not because he was critical of sex segregation but rather because of the way he was critical. I am sure that neither of us believes that segregating the sexes during this debate was an appropriate idea. Therefore I feel that the article should specify that the reason why his comments is considered Islamopobic is because he made a broad generalization characterizing Muslims as the "other". Alsto003 (talk) 10:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC) Alex
The article already describes the debate segregation as a stupid decision. Dawkins' words speak for themselves and, as the article shows, are part of a pattern of hostile & insensitive comments about Muslims. I don't see the need to single out his reaction here as being any less awful than in other incidents. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:50, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
It wasn't simply stupid; it was also sexist. His Islamophobia is staying in the paragraph and so is these other folks' sexism. Rand0 (talk) 23:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)


Why is opposition to Islam considered bad? Is this a pro-atheism wiki or a pro-Islam Wiki?

Opposition to Islam in itself isn't considered wrong, but some critiques of Islam seem to cross or blur the lines between xenophobia and valid critiques of the religion. Criticisms of religion should be well supported and shouldn't cross the line into denigrating its followers. From what I have seen, the people who seem best at arguing against Muslim theology without crossing that line are ex-Muslim atheists. Heina Dadabhoy (Heinous Dealings) of FreeThoughtBlogs and Kaveh Mousavi (On the Margin of Error) of Patheos are two that I have in mind. Arachne1988 (talk) 00:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Jews are a race as well as a religion. You can be a Jew by race and be an atheist or a Christian even (if yo're suicidal) a Muslim. You could also not be a Jew by race but still practice Judaism in which case you're still asking for your head to get cut off if the true Muslims have their way. Islam is not a race although liberals think it is because most Muslims are dark skinned and therefore in the mind of the racist left, disadvantaged and deserving of special rights because they've been bullied by the nasty, imperialist West who try to impose values such as respect for human rights, women and gays upon them when they are a culture who are different from our own and are therefore entitled to rape or stone to death anyone whom they disagree with. The very word "Islamophobia" is an oxymoron and a classic example of Orwelelian newspeak in real life. A phobia by definition is an irrational fear or suspicion. Being afraid of spiders in a country where they are not deadly is a phobia. Being afraid of spiders in a country where they are deadly is a rational fear. Being afraid or suspicious of men who believe they have the right to marry as many women as they want and then consumate the marriage regardless of age and beat them four times a day for disobeying them or not walking around wearing a tent or so much as looking at another man and then stone them to death if they get raped despite how many times said men may have done so or rip the faces of homosexuals as they do in Palestine or execute them as they do in Iran is not an irrational fear; it's common sense. But we don't get a squeak about this from feminists and yet Richard Dawkins is regarded as a vile misogynist because a member of his organisation once flirted with a woman in an elevator and despite manifold warcrimes from that band of desert dwelling, cowardly, bomb-throwing illiterates colloquially known as the Palestinians despite the fact that they quite rightly don't have their own country and never will if they keep behaving the way they are, Israel are cast as the bad guys. --Let Them Eat Cake (talk) 22:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that is an oversimplification to call the more violent Muslims the true Muslims-both the violent and peaceful Muslims are true Muslims. It is not a monolithic bloc. The term islamophobic is more akin to xenophobia than to run of the mill phobias. Xenophobia is a term used in social science to indicate a loathing or hatred of foreigners. It is an extreme form of "us" vs "them" thinking. Accurate criticisms of other cultures does not fall into this category, but extreme caricatures and unsupported claims do.
The reason why I like to hear what ex-Muslim atheists say on the matter is that they criticize it accurately and know that overgeneralizing is unjustified to do to Islam just as it is to do to Christianity. Terrorism does not seem to be the issue that most often comes up when you hear them speak. It tends to be more about human rights violations on other Muslims and deconverted Muslims, which are rampant where Sharia law is a present. The fact about terrorism is that it is biased by cultural view. Osama bin Laden regarded Americans as terrorists, and his argument was based on our use of military force. As my social problems professor put it, "One nation's heroes, another nation's terrorists." In reality, everyone involved sucks pretty badly.
In regards to the re-establishment of Israel-I think it was a very thoughtless thing to do to the Jews. The Palestinians were living there first and then the idea to give Jews Israel just had to be implemented. We couldn't offer them uninhabited land-like west Texas. Muslims and Jews did not fight very much before that-the situation is first and foremost about land and is exacerbated by religious differences and then evangelical Christians throw their bit about the end times on top of it. Religion plays a part, but it was not the starting point for the conflict. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict always reminds me of "This Land is Mine"-had to post the link.Arachne1988 (talk) 05:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
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