Talk:Rome Viharo/Archive4
[edit] Vote to delete/keep
[edit] Delete
This page is a deliberate attack piece on Viharo. It must be deleted, let's vote. I say delete Evolutionist (talk) 07:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- delete yes, this page is nothing but a deliberate attack and until it is deleted, anyone can expect public pushback from me. delete because it's just flat out wrong to do this to people. it was deleted yesterday, but now it's back up. wouldn't it be so nice to show that Rational Wiki does not promote it's site as a payback site for skeptical activism? This article has no credibility to it. And if your supporting an article with no credibility to it, that really says a lot about the voice of this site over all. I'm pro skepticism, but I'm not pro these kind of activist tactics. This is skeptic extremism. They will give any movement a bad name. Also, I am publicly exposing these tactics. It would look MUCH nicer on the skeptical activist movement if Rational Wiki did the right thing - otherwise you guys are just creating enemies WHERE YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY. I am NOT a promoter of pseudoscience. RomeViharo (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Keep
- Many of our articles attack psuoscience or its promoters. So the fact that this page "attacks" something is not a delete reason. We also have no notability criteria, and being a "troll magnet" is not a reason for deletion. keep--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 09:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- "We have no notability criteria" isn't a very helpful argument. We don't have a codified notability policy like Wikipedia does, but this doesn't mean all mission-related subjects are of equal interest. If this guy is mostly known for being a user at wikis & forums, we shouldn't give him the same level of attention as we do to somebody who is a household name or a significant figure in their field or movement. Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 13:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Then vote for "delete". You have my opinion.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 13:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I already did! Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 13:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I already did! Ŵêâŝêîôîď
- Then vote for "delete". You have my opinion.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 13:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- "We have no notability criteria" isn't a very helpful argument. We don't have a codified notability policy like Wikipedia does, but this doesn't mean all mission-related subjects are of equal interest. If this guy is mostly known for being a user at wikis & forums, we shouldn't give him the same level of attention as we do to somebody who is a household name or a significant figure in their field or movement. Wēāŝēīōīď
- Keep, if only 'cause he (RV) wants it deleted. Weasel (mostly known for being a user at wikis & forums), We (RW) are in the world of wikis & fora as we are so I don't think that's any criterion to judge anyone by. — Unsigned, by: Scream!! / talk / contribs
- I don't support articles on RationalWiki users either. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď
Methinks it is a Weasel 14:08, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't support articles on RationalWiki users either. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď
- Keep because he's obviously a crank. Do not support any of the WP/sockpuppet nonsense being included, maybe a footnote about Sheldrake. Article should focus on his crank ideas. --Kels (talk) 17:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Weak keep, but only on the condition that the article be a specific takedown of his crankery and not a blow-by-blow account of sockpuppetry at some other website. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
18:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- KEEP if only because of his influence on wingnuts. Rewrite the page if needed.--The Madman (talk) 19:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
- Actually, that's not a really good reason for voting "keep".--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Amazing - someone here says keep only because I want it deleted. So you believe the best time to harass someone is when they have been harassed? Anyone here to wants to keep this article is endorsing online harassment as a tactic to make a point. Trust me, that will not fair well on the skeptic activist community. Interesting too, the best way to get rid of me and quiet me is by deleting this page. That is what will get me far less attention. It's literally in your best interests too. Because I can assure you as long as this page is up, I am going to be getting more and more attention for exposing online harassment on Wikipedia. That the harassment came from the skeptic movement should not be a reflection on the skeptic movement itself but you're making it so. But it's more important to some editors here to be right rather than do the right thing. RomeViharo (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- week keep? PowderSmokeAndLeather: - crank ideas? such as? a tongue in cheek project from 2003? an idea about discussion forums and conflict? my online collective editor? my TEDx talk that suggested social media will evolve into collaborative government? Is that really a crank idea? Wikipedia we have a problem.com? That fact that you would even refer to me as a 'crank' online I consider harassment and an attack on my character. If I am going to have an article here, I would expect it to be a rational critique, and not some vague outline based on one or two opinions about something someone does not even comprehend. And if you have a problem with those ideas, why not just start an article on AL 0 1 2 instead? or Wikipedia we have a problem.com? I can assure you anyone attacking me for AL 0 1 2 is going to feel pretty dumb when they see what it is. All you're doing is creating enemies where you should not have any and are helping me expose a bias and level of harassment that is acceptable in your community. Deleting the article makes Rational Wiki look good, keeping the article makes Rational Wiki look like a bunch of disgruntled bullies with no idea what they are talking about. RomeViharo (talk) 19:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Rome. I understand that you feel that : "the best way to get rid of me and too quiet me is by deleting this page." and that's probably right. But the question is not "How best to get rid of you?" . The question is "Is the page factually correct?" So yes, it is more important to be right than it is to do what is convenient. --Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 17:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- But the page is NOT factually correct. That's the problem. It's a complete misrepresentation of my worldview. That's the problem because the focus on the page is to 'attack' me. IF you want to attack me for TEDx, do it, but you're not attacking the idea I am promoting in the actual talk, you're hoping on buzz words like shamans. You're confusing story telling for something that it's not. If you want to attack me for os 012, do it please, but why? I dont even promote it anymore, you're the only ones getting it attention. Who even cares about that? And if your going to attack me, GET IT RIGHT! If you want to attack me for AL 0 1 2, do it, but it's not out yet. If you want to attack me for Wikipedia we have a problem.com DO IT, please but get the facts straight, especially because I would never have published it if I was not attacked on Rational Wiki. If you want to deny that this article has one purpose and that is to harass someone just keep on denying it. But ask yourself, WHAT VALUE does this article on me have?? What purpose does it serve? If it's factually incorrect, or takes things out of context, your creating a problem where there is none and you're not helping scepticism advance by publishing a bunch of misleading ideas. I think it would fair far better for the skeptic activist movement if they recognized harassment happening in their own community and choose not to participate in it. I would rather post 'hey - rational wiki deleted the article, which I did yesterday. and focus on a few problem individuals and keep the skeptic activist movement out of it, which is what I am attempting to do. I would rather report on resolution and sanity instead of frothing at the mouth irrationality that is displayed here. But one thing I can assure you of, this article on me here has motivated me to focus on online harassment in collaborative online environments like wiki and expose how they are abused.The abuse just happens to come from affiliates of skeptic activism. I'm not going to stop doing that. Wikipedia we have a problem has gone viral already, far more than I was expecting. The consensus in response so far does not make the skeptic activist tactics appear like anything other than a bunch of online bullies trying to find any way to make this article work so it can continue to serve it's purpose to harass. I can assure you, I am not the one who is looking like an ass. RomeViharo (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Rome. If, as you say, the article is factually incorrect them it certainty should be corrected. That is certainly a potentially valid complaint which, I hope, will be addressed by those who are aware of the issues. It is however a reason for correction - not deletion.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:20, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- But the page is NOT factually correct. That's the problem. It's a complete misrepresentation of my worldview. That's the problem because the focus on the page is to 'attack' me. IF you want to attack me for TEDx, do it, but you're not attacking the idea I am promoting in the actual talk, you're hoping on buzz words like shamans. You're confusing story telling for something that it's not. If you want to attack me for os 012, do it please, but why? I dont even promote it anymore, you're the only ones getting it attention. Who even cares about that? And if your going to attack me, GET IT RIGHT! If you want to attack me for AL 0 1 2, do it, but it's not out yet. If you want to attack me for Wikipedia we have a problem.com DO IT, please but get the facts straight, especially because I would never have published it if I was not attacked on Rational Wiki. If you want to deny that this article has one purpose and that is to harass someone just keep on denying it. But ask yourself, WHAT VALUE does this article on me have?? What purpose does it serve? If it's factually incorrect, or takes things out of context, your creating a problem where there is none and you're not helping scepticism advance by publishing a bunch of misleading ideas. I think it would fair far better for the skeptic activist movement if they recognized harassment happening in their own community and choose not to participate in it. I would rather post 'hey - rational wiki deleted the article, which I did yesterday. and focus on a few problem individuals and keep the skeptic activist movement out of it, which is what I am attempting to do. I would rather report on resolution and sanity instead of frothing at the mouth irrationality that is displayed here. But one thing I can assure you of, this article on me here has motivated me to focus on online harassment in collaborative online environments like wiki and expose how they are abused.The abuse just happens to come from affiliates of skeptic activism. I'm not going to stop doing that. Wikipedia we have a problem has gone viral already, far more than I was expecting. The consensus in response so far does not make the skeptic activist tactics appear like anything other than a bunch of online bullies trying to find any way to make this article work so it can continue to serve it's purpose to harass. I can assure you, I am not the one who is looking like an ass. RomeViharo (talk) 19:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Well I think you or anyone reasonable will find that if you take out the incorrections in the article, you are going to be left with an article about someone with no reason for them to have an article on Rational Wiki. My worldview is not that controversial for you to attack me on. I hardly think believing that social media could evolve into collaborative government is an idea that any progressive minded individual would need to attack or call me a crank over, especially in 2014 when it's already started to happen. I hardly think my agnostic philosophy is worth a notice. I hardly think a discussion I had on JREF on 2007 is notable for anything. the only thing I think that could be valid to attack would be my publication Wikipedia we have a problem.com - which mentions rational wiki and provides evidence of harassment by editors on wikipedia who promote skeptic activism. I also call Tim Farley out on this. I can understand if you want to attack that. But wouldn't it just be nicer if we all could a.)agree there is a problem with harassment online, irrespective of the ideologies involved, and b.) agree that harassment and bullying is counter productive to critical discussion? I would LOVE to write about that on the site, I would love to absolve rational wiki and focus on the behaviors of a few individuals instead. RomeViharo (talk) 19:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- OK, well starting at the beginning I see we have something on "OS 0 1 2". Frankly our article does not seem to say exactly what it is; and whatever it is your comments above don't seem to suggest that it's still something you are heavily into. Is it something you are presently promoting and, if so, can you give a link to your present position on it? Thanks. --Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:56, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Rome seems to be talking out both sides of his mouth on OS 0 1 2, saying he doesn't promote it any more, and then talking up a related discussion platform called AL 0 1 2, soon to come on stream, he says. Mere distinction, or actual difference? (Let the audience decide? There's an ad populum for you.) Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 20:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- a fair question. addressed here. http://wikipediawehaveaproblem.com/about-al-0-1-2/ RomeViharo (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well that seems to be be post about it and some of your experiences with on-line forums. But I'm still not clear on what it actually is. Perhaps I read it too quickly looking for definition. Can you link to a clear, concise definition and confirm it is your current thinking? Cheers.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:24, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- a fair question. addressed here. http://wikipediawehaveaproblem.com/about-al-0-1-2/ RomeViharo (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I looked at your recent Twitter output. You've made multiple Tweets harassing JREF's Tim Farley, this is just one: [1]. And this is an obvious attempt to stir up the Society for Psychical Research's fears about pseudoskeptics: [2]. Your activity is not consistent with a neutral party or an innocent victim of circumstance. And that's just Twitter. I haven't even reviewed your other promotional (?) activity on Facebook, Reddit, yahoo answers, etc. Leuders (talk) 14:24, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Goat
- The goat says "meh." This whole mess is a colossal waste of time and attention. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 15:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- As a fan of all three valued systems, I too will also say "meh". Keep or delete, either way I win. I was hoping that the more rational minds here would see that the only way for Rational Wiki to win would be doing the right thing. But a few of the editors here have 'boob' mind and it's always the irrational players that ruin it for the community. That is, until AL 0 1 2 is released. :) RomeViharo (talk) 17:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm confused. You are voting both "delete" and "abstain" (goat)? Is that right?--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 18:30, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
ahh, well it was sort of sarcastic, I was not aware my vote counted in the first place! I was just happy to see a third value other than delete or keep and it brought out the redditor in me. Of course my vote is to delete, I think it's in everyone's best interests. RomeViharo (talk) 19:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Everybody has a vote Rome. :-) --Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:22, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
My vote is available to the highest bidder before a deadline of my choosing. BRB, making a paypal acct. Unique pinion (talk) 19:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm... Time to game the system! More seriously though, my vote on this is also Goat, perhaps leaning ever so slightly towards Weak delete. I've semi-followed this fiasco since it began, and it seems like a pretty rough mess at this point. Between the walls of text, back-and-forth link spams, and the various incomprehensible positions advanced by both sides, I honestly have no idea which parts of the article are factual and which are not. I feel like fixing up this article would require an as-of-yet uninvolved editor to take some time to sit down, ignore the talk page, and walk through the actual evidence. - GrantC (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've got no axe to grind and neither do Grant and Kels. Perhaps we should wade thought the thing and decide what is abuse and what is legit?--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm... Time to game the system! More seriously though, my vote on this is also Goat, perhaps leaning ever so slightly towards Weak delete. I've semi-followed this fiasco since it began, and it seems like a pretty rough mess at this point. Between the walls of text, back-and-forth link spams, and the various incomprehensible positions advanced by both sides, I honestly have no idea which parts of the article are factual and which are not. I feel like fixing up this article would require an as-of-yet uninvolved editor to take some time to sit down, ignore the talk page, and walk through the actual evidence. - GrantC (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Bob and others. I think that is fair. I do see a lot of the incorrections already out of the article. If you want to source, I am hoping to provide the following
1.) For the background of OS 0 1 2, from my POV, is located here. http://wikipediawehaveaproblem.com/about-al-0-1-2/ I've been working on this for 11 years now. This year the actual platform is coming out. I accept that my methodologies in developing it were unorthodox, but to me that makes it more colorful, not cranky. If the idea of OS 0 1 2 is a crank idea, there is only one way to demonstrate it, by attacking the AL 0 1 2 platform when it comes out. I'll even give anyone here an invite to it in a few weeks. Other than that, I dont promote the OS 0 1 2 meme anymore and havent since 2007. I have even been meaning to take the site down. I hardly think that is worthy of an article, but that is just my opinion. I think if anyone critiques the idea, they should probably wait to see the platform, because any opinion of os 0 1 2 is going to be held in that light historically. Also, I dont promote OS 0 1 2 anymore so by writing about something that is 7 - 11 years old, it means Rational Wiki are the only ones promoting it. RomeViharo (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
2.) Please just watch the TEDx talk, ALL THE WAY through because the talk is a give away, i.e. you wont know what the talk is really about until the last 7 minutes or so, Everything about shamans and google search being sentient is just a set up and the talk is a 'story', it's not a hypothesis about google being sentient, it's a metaphor for collective intelligence, with the hope that government will evolve into collaborative media. That is what I am promoting. If anyone wants to attack me, please attack me for the idea I actually promote. Please attack me for believing that government can evolve into collaborative media. Please attack me for designing, or even attempting to design, a collaborative media platform for rational consensus. I don't mind critiques of that, I encourage it and hope we can have something robust to talk about. However, this article is written like I am promoting the idea that Google is sentient and that plants can talk. A complete misrepresentation of the talk, and i mean a CLEAR misrepresentation of the talk if you watch it. You can also just read a summary here. RomeViharo (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
3.) I am NOT known for trolling. I DO NOT SPREAD CONSPIRACY THEORIES. Seriously, that is offensive. That claim started on Wikipedia when editors tried to get me banned using the claim that I was spreading conspiracy theories when I asked a few members if they were members of GSoW. Somehow asking if editors are involved with GSoW made me deserve the title of spreading conspiracy theories, lumping me in with every 911 and reptilian nut job out there. I have a blog. Search it. Search for ONE conspiracy theory I have ever promoted. You will not find one. Find one 'pseudoscience' that I promote. I am NOT known for any of these things and this is factually incorrect about me as a person. The only thing about me that is 'fringy' is that yes, I do consider myself a 'futurist' and I do promote anything regarding to life extension (like aubrey de gray), collective intelligence (like wikipedia or AL o12 or social media), and space travel. That's about as extreme as a i get. I think if you scroll through my blog, you will see that. and I am NOT known for being a blogger, sheesh i have like 300 followers on my blog, big deal. Only thing I am known for, if at all, is my TEDx talk and being in social media (i've given talks on social media panels, big whip) RomeViharo (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
4.) Wikipedia, we have a problem is an entire case study with links to evidence of harassment. I do NOT want to make any claim about this that is invalid. If someone believes I have, I am willing to make the correction. I am not anti skepticism, and I make this clear in the study. The study is ONLY about exposing tactics of activist editors and is NOT an indictment of skeptical activism. Its welcoming to me to encounter a few of you here that seem very rational and considering. I am not your enemy. But I can assure you if I believe i am being harassed, libeled, or misrepresented online so someone can make a point, expect pushback. RomeViharo (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'll watch the TEDx talk and look into the OS 0 1 2 stuff in a bit more detail (as well as its connection to this new platform you're speaking of). As for the Wikipedia/trolling stuff, I don't think that's relevant, to be honest. That's not to say that I agree with your comments on the Sheldrake bio fiasco (for the record, I do not), but that I doubt it's something RW should be writing about. I don't care if you socked on Wikipedia or if you defended a crank (or the reason for that). Lots of people defend cranks. In fact, I have a friend who's all about naturopathic medicine, and you don't see an article about her around here. - GrantC (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. But actually getting a handle on OS 0 1 2 seems difficult. It may be to vague bother about.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I just read through a bit of it, and I'm not really sure what's going on. I can't tell if it's "woo" or not because I can't tell if it's supporting an idea any more complicated than "sometimes we don't know things, and maybe yes/no isn't an appropriate dichotomy". - GrantC (talk) 20:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. But actually getting a handle on OS 0 1 2 seems difficult. It may be to vague bother about.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 20:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
}}
[edit] TRANSHUMANISM?
The article complete misrepresents the 'claims' I make in the talk and frankly presents a view point of the talk that is deceptive to the reader. I never say memes are spirits. I ask the question are spirits just metaphors for memes, i.e. are spirits in the amazon just 'ideas' in western philosophy - and then move on to explain a materialistic model of consciousness via dennett. Secondly - the only conclusion, which was delivered in clearly a sarcastic tone which got a laugh from the audience was that 'google *maybe* conscious'. Thirdly, the talk says clearly that it's a metaphor for collective intelligence and government evolving to use collaborative media. THAT's WHAT I AM CLAIMING. Attack me for that claim, please. say 'Viharo thinks governments will use social media' or 'viharo thinks social media will replace gov'. that would make this article true and your critique true.
Transhumanism? That's a very broad term for something so narrow that I focus on but if that's how you want to paint me, at least its closer to the truth than what the rest of the article suggests about me. Although why you wont use the word 'futurist' which is what I use to describe I can only assume because transhumanism is a weasel word while futurist is not. RomeViharo (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Nazi's oh boy - my point was that the skeptics were like the americans protecting themselves against nazi ideologies
Seriously guys, i find it interesting that the article completely fails to attack my actual ideas (such as harassment by activist skeptics on Wikipedia and rational wiki). My point about americans and nazi's was clearly NOT a metaphor for believers vs skeptics, but rather a metaphor for group think from the point of view of those engaging in group think. i.e. the metaphor was that skeptic activists engaged in groupthink view this as seriously as if they were the americans defending against a nazi ideology, i.e. they believe they are doing the right thing and take it very seriously. What purpose does it serve to attack a point that I do not make? Attack me for accusing skeptic activists of groupthink. In the interview you're quoting me from - I make it clear that I say I do not believe this is a conspiracy but rather evidence of group think.
Until you change it, I will continue to use this article as an example of group think tactics in a wiki war.RomeViharo (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Guys, can we make rational wiki mean something? Shouldn't it mean 'rational'? Why twist words like FOX news, isn't that what this wiki stands against?
If you're going to criticize me, please criticize me for what I am actually doing or promoting. This article is using strong weasel language to paint me as a crank, conspiracy theorist, and pseudoscience promoter and these are factually and empirically false statements. if this article was honest and rational, it could be attacking me for things I actually DO. You should include the following
1. Viharo claims that skeptic activists on Wikipedia and Rational Wiki orchestrated a campaign of harassment. Viharo claims that this harassment needs to be exposed but also clarifies it should not be an indictment on the skeptic ideology.
2. Viharo claims that he has developed a collective editor called AL 0 1 2 and claims that OS 0 1 2 discussions years ago served as a manner of developing an algorithm to manage discussion.
3. Viharo claims that governments will evolve into collaborative media (or vice versa).
There. attack me for what's true and what I believe to be true. Painting me as a bogey man is like Obama having to defend himself as a terrorist sympathizer or an african born immigrant from the tea party. Attack me for my actual ideas, or better yet, attack the ideas themselves. Until you do, this article is serving one purpose which is to harass an editor in a wiki war on Wikipedia and who has publically exposed their tactics. Editors here are turning rational wiki into yellow journalism. RomeViharo (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- I looked at your recent Twitter output. You've made multiple Tweets harassing JREF's Tim Farley. This is just one: [3]. And this is an obvious attempt to increase the Society for Psychical Research's paranoia about pseudoskeptics: [4]. Your activity is not consistent with someone who is an innocent victim of circumstance. And that's just Twitter. I haven't even reviewed your other promotional (?) activity on Facebook, Reddit, yahoo answers, etc. Leuders (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- Correct, I am exposing Tim Farley. Attack me for that please. Tim Farley also made multiple harassing tweets and FB posts about me. I would not say I am harassing him, I would say that I am defending myself against Tim Farley's harassment of editors on Wikipedia. Tim Farley plays a black hat game online. It's misleading and I'm going to continue to expose it. That's how abusive this culture is. First I get harassed, libeled, and personally attacked. Then when I defend myself, my defense is used as justification for personally attacking me. Take a look in the mirror Lucky Louie and crew - your ideas, right are wrong are not the problem. The problem are your disgusting tactics of harassment that you use to promote your world view. Nixon much? RomeViharo (talk) 17:27, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- Also, I'm only using the website and twitter to promote. yahoo reddit, stumbleupon facebook is all happening organically. Just keep following me on twitter if you want to know my thoughts or read my blog. RomeViharo (talk) 17:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Dood, you can think what you want but your responses here read a little paranoid and a little delusional. If you're offended by viral marketing you should bring that up with tim farley. RomeViharo (talk) 18:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not the one ranting all over the net about "group think tactics in a wiki war." Leuders (talk) 19:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Correct - I'm the one ranting about group think. I am suggesting that these type of harassing behaviors you and your pals are symptoms of groupthink. I dont blame them on skeptical ideology. groupthink happens everywhere. Below is a standard definition of the symptoms of groupthink. I find evidence of all of these things happening in my encounters with skeptic activists on Wikipedia.
Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.
Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.
Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.
Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.
Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.
Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.
Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.
Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.
Groupthink inherently is inconsistent with empirical facts - yet often we find ourselves in a position where it is necessary to form a consensus with those whom express symptoms of groupthink type behaviors - making a rational consensus impossible. What I pay attention to is the exact place in the conversation someone 'leaves' or attempts to control the discussion through some form of harassment or personal attack. Attack me for that yes please. Accuse me of spreading conspiracy theory? lulz - that' just helps me make my point and highlights a few things on the list above a bit clearer for those whom may be following this discussion. RomeViharo (talk) 23:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- Couple things. RW isn't the place to re-fight your lost Wikipedia battle. #dontcare. FWIW, your online screed isn't a case study (?) and it isn't empirical evidence of anything. It's just a long winded emotional indictment of an alleged skeptical cabal who you say harassed you. So I would advise you to stop insisting your RW article must be written a certain way, and to drop the "no matter what you do I win" posturing. You've registered your complaints. Either there will be some results or there won't. Leuders (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- If RW wasn't the place to re fight the wiki battle, then there should not have been an article written about me as payback because of it. Until this article is either deleted or at least a fair critique, continue to expect pushback. RomeViharo (talk) 02:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Lol, you are the one on the receiving end. Get over it. You are a waste of time in general, but guess who decided to waste their time debunking you? ħuman
02:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Lol, you are the one on the receiving end. Get over it. You are a waste of time in general, but guess who decided to waste their time debunking you? ħuman
- If RW wasn't the place to re fight the wiki battle, then there should not have been an article written about me as payback because of it. Until this article is either deleted or at least a fair critique, continue to expect pushback. RomeViharo (talk) 02:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Even if it was started in retribution (I don't know if it was and I don't really care), all the stuff related to Wikipedia has been removed since it was irrelevant. That is, it's passed into the hands of people who don't give a shit about your problems with The Other Wiki so your Great Big Walls Of Text and Indignation really aren't going to change anything. If anything, they're likely to take you less seriously as a result since they give the impression that you're a thin-skinned blowhard who carries a great many grudges, which I'm sure you don't want. --Kels (talk) 02:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Its easy for you to say Kels, you get to keep your anonymity . I don't think any of you would be thin skinned if you were attacked and outed online with a embarrassing article about you showing up #1 on search and which harmed your business. This article is affecting my livelihood and my ability to take care of my business and family. I'm not here to get you to 'like me' or thumb up my facebook page. I am here to either get this article deleted or at least get it to be an honest reflection of what I am doing. RomeViharo (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- If you are worried about your reputation then you should probably take down your website. You know, the one alleging that your are victim of a skeptic conspiracy. And if you want employers not to think you are a nut maybe you should not participate in parapsychology podcasts or be tweeting comparing yourself to rape victims. Just a thought. Leuders (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- What anonymity? That's my real name. I was just saying you don't want to give a negative impression that would put you in a confrontational posture with editors who you seem to want to write favourably from your point of view. I will say though, that this rather tiny article on RW is coming in at #1 on searches among all articles about you, you may want to ask why there aren't more positive reviews of your ideas and work. I doubt (and doubt you can support) that this article alone is causing you material harm. --Kels (talk) 15:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] a question for Rome Viharo
If OS 0 1 2 is such a successful master meme able to resolve conflicts in a single bound , why the posts above ? Surely the conflict would melt away under the onslaught of OS 0 1 2. ?
- incidentally you seem to be trying to use trinary logic (true, false and unknown) but using 1 and 2 for true and false just conflicts with EVERY programming language.
AL 0 1 2 is not a programming language. 0 , 1, and 2 are just categories for assigning distinct contexts relative to three truth values. And yes, in principle this conflict could 'melt' away or be resolved by Al 0 1 2. However, this is not an AL 0 1 2 discussion thread, it's Rational Wiki so it's just going to take a much longer amount of time :) RomeViharo (talk) 23:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. You are actually insane, or at least incapable of explaining your insanity. ħuman
03:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. You are actually insane, or at least incapable of explaining your insanity. ħuman
- so in what circumstances is OS 0 1 2 actually useable ? Hamster (talk) 23:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
in principle is useable in all circumstances - just some environments are more supportive of it's outcome and some environments more challenging. RomeViharo (talk) 23:43, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- lol - don't know why I missed this earlier. Your response was funny - 'with an error message of WUT?' That's perfect. That's WUT it should be :) RomeViharo (talk) 23:55, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- From what I gather, AL 012 is some kind of forum software and the software decides what's "rational" and what's "opinion" and what's "unknown". Or something. The vaporous non descriptions published by its creator aren't helping. Rome, can you post an AL 012 product data sheet (preferably written by an engineer)? Leuders (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- The platform does not decide what is 'rational' or what's opinion - the users on the platform do. The platform just presents three categories for assigning values to statements and records behaviors around those statements and issues editing permissions related to them. I am not going to post publically anything from the platform until it's ready. However, if anyone wants to skype with me regarding it or if anyone wants to participate in a beta discussion in a few weeks, they are welcome to. RomeViharo (talk) 15:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
If anyone here is expecting a flushed out explanation of what the platform does, how it works, etc etc this is not the medium for it. Its too complex of a presentation. I dont want to have to 'explain' how it works - it's too difficult in this medium. I want to 'show' how it works and i can't do that until the platform is ready. sorry. until then the best I can do is give broad descriptions. However if anyone wants to skype me, I dont mind sharing a few thought documents on screen share or walking someone through a thought doc or two. RomeViharo (talk) 15:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, so it's coming out soon, it's going to be revolutionary, and the details are too "over our heads" to explain. Uh huh. Leuders (talk) 15:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- While the claims might be dubious, I would point out that as of yet, I see nothing suggesting that we need coverage of AL 0 1 2 as it exists now. Whether or not it works and whether or not it's what it matches Rome's hype are largely irrelevant to RW's mission. Now that we know that AL 0 1 2 is a software platform that claims to be pretty neat and does some stuff, what more is there? - Grant (Talk) 15:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] An argument for deletion
Hi.
I've been following the events around Rome's Wikipedia banning, including this page, and have been in contact with Rome to see whether he minds me stopping in here, and he's OK with that, so, here goes.
I advocate for this page to be deleted. It fits none of RationalWiki's purposes, listed as:
- Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement.
- Documenting the full range of crank ideas.
- Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.
- Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.
Nobody here seems to be arguing that this article fits purposes #3 and #4, so let's ignore those. That leaves us with #1 and #2.
With respect to #1, Rome describes himself as "agnostic"; on Rupert Sheldrake's Wikipedia talk page he argued for a neutral point of view, not in favour of Sheldrake's ideas, the truth of which he maintains he is uncertain - fitting with his agnosticism. Nowhere have I seen Rome argue anything that could remotely be conceived of as either "pseudoscience" or "anti-science". He has asked several times on this page for evidence of such of his supposed arguments to be presented, and nobody has been able to present it. #1 very clearly does not apply.
Let's tackle #2 then. As a kind of side note, I would firstly challenge the RationalWiki definition of a "crank" as a person who holds "extremely unorthodox views on a subject". Many scientific breakthroughs have been made by people whose discoveries would initially (because of their originality) have been reasonably described as "extremely unorthodox". I think there is more to being a "crank" than this; to be a crank, one's views must be not only unorthodox, but demonstrably and absurdly false (this is hinted at in the RW "crank" article when reference is made to "inaccurate" views).
Be that as it may, I don't think that in any case, Rome's views on either OS/AL 0 1 2 or his TEDx talk count. I will admit to having been somewhat confused by Rome's OS 0 1 2 BASIC page when I first read it, and, too, Rome has an arguably admirable flair for the dramatic. I don't think, however, that either of these qualities make for crankishness; they entail neither unorthodoxy nor inaccuracy.
The basic concept behind OS 0 1 2 is undeniably reasonable: our evaluation of the truth-aptness of anything conceptual - including propositions, assertions, claims, ideas, opinions, poems, stories, etc - can be fit exhaustively into one of three categories:
Category 1: this is objectively true
Category 2: this is not objectively true: it is either objectively false, or it is simply not amenable to objectivity - i.e. it is better described as "subjective" e.g. opinions and poetry
Category 0: it is unknown to me whether or not this fits category 1 or 2.
Too often, according to the premise of OS 0 1 2, arguments arise and are perpetuated because people are unwilling to make reasonable use of category "0": too often, we want to say "this is true" or "this is false" when we simply don't know. AL 0 1 2 takes up the OS 0 1 2 baton and defines a systematic approach to resolving conflicts, where concepts are initially categorised "0" and then, through a dialectic process, sincere parties determine whether the concept should retain that categorisation, or whether it should be recategorised as "1" or "2". I have seen some schematics of this process, and can confirm based on what Rome has told me that it is in active development. Will it succeed? I don't know, but I *do* know that it goes beyond "crankishness" and into the realm of genuine ideas.
Rome may have gotten a little carried away and over-dramatic, and been a little unclear, in explaining OS 0 1 2 to the world, but it's fundamentally a reasonable concept, and one which might even have a practical outcome. It does not at all qualify as crankish.
So much for OS 0 1 2. How about Rome's TEDx talk with his friend, Maf? Could this in any way be considered to be crankish? Perhaps the most "crankish" possibility of this talk is that Rome is asserting that Google actually *is* conscious. But did he really make that assertion? In fact, he did not. Read what he actually said in that talk: "I look at this idea of Google Consciousness as really a snarky rebuttal to Daniel Dennett's idea [...] I didn't expect anybody to take the idea seriously". In other words, Rome didn't even take the idea seriously himself - he put it out there simply as a challenge to Daniel Dennett's model of consciousness, not as a serious idea in its own right. Yet, some serious people took it seriously - so, he and Maf discuss this a little further in the talk, and, in that light, Rome sums up in the talk with: "So we bring you the story of the meme 'Google Consciousness' so far, and, our conclusion: Google may be conscious. May be [shrugging non-committally; audience chuckles]". Nothing remotely crankish there, just an acknowledgement that some serious folk took seriously an idea that he didn't intend seriously himself.
The key part of the talk is the final five minutes, which start when Rome asks, "So, why is it relevant to bring us to TED and talk to you, what would we like to inspire in you?". He and Maf go on to describe the possibilities for political organisation, problem solving and conflict resolution through collaborative technology, in particular social media but also media like Wikipedia. He points out that in some ways, this is already happening, as, for example, the outcome of Wikipedia articles on whose content Palestinians and Israelies are polarised. I fail to see how this is in any way crankish. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. I, too, am an advocate of online democracy. There's a lot of potential there.
A final note: this page's overview suggests, too, that Rome is a conspiracy theorist. I have seen no evidence for this. The worst he's done in this respect is to *question* a few Wikipedia editors as to whether or not they were members of a guerilla sceptic group. I hardly think this qualifies him as a conspiracy theorist! I mean, seriously, this charge is just ridiculous.
To sum up: nothing currently in this article fits any of RationalWiki's purposes. It is purposeless and should be deleted. --Laird (talk) 00:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Wikilawyering and wall o' text aren't really very convincing 'round these parts, as you may have noticed from...oh, I dunno...every damn thing Rome has done on this site. Not to mention there's already a "keep" consensus, and besides we're not motivated by "what makes Rome feel happy in his pants" or "what makes Rome finally stop ranting and go away". Shame all that typing time you wasted for your only edit on this wiki. --Kels (talk) 00:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I had an edit conflict, but Kels' post stated almost all of my views pretty adequately. There are some editors wandering through the article trying to find out what's true and what isn't. If there's really false stuff in there, it will get filtered out. The more often these long screeds get posted, the harder it is to do that, since there's just that much more material. Less is more in this case. - Grant (Talk) 00:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a little confused. If this wiki values rationality, then why, when I mount a carefully sourced and constructed rational argument, is that argument dismissed and ignored with pejoratives ("wikilawyering" and "wall o' text") and irrelevancies ("what makes Rome feel happy in his pants", "what makes Rome finally stop ranting and go away" and "your only edit on this wiki")? Where is the rational response to my actual argument (that this article fails to meet any of RationalWiki's purposes, and thus should be deleted)? --Laird (talk) 03:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- You mentioned you responded to my point, yet I don't see the response. My point was that these additions, which add no new information, don't actually help approach consensus in any way. - Grant (Talk) 04:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Why are you socking? --Marlow (talk) 04:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Grant, thanks for the response. In fact, I made no attempt to respond to your point, but I will do so now. You suggested that there are editors trying to work out what is true and what is false in the article. My point is that once unbiased truth is established in the article, nothing in the article will fulfil this wiki's purposes. The unbiased truth is that Rome is neither a supporter of pseudoscience nor a crank. Thus, there's no reason to document him on this wiki, and this article should be deleted. You suggest that my contribution doesn't "help approach consensus in any way", but how is consensus approached if not by different people offering their different arguments and opinions, and trying to understand one another? From my perspective, I'm doing exactly what is necessary to form consensus: carefully explain what I think is a rational point of view, and give others the chance to respond rationally to it. Let me ask you: is there anything factually incorrect or rationally incoherent about what I've written so far on this page? If not, then why would it not count as an effort towards consensus? How can I contribute to consensus if I remain silent? (Is that what you're suggesting I do?) Marlow, was your question addressed to me? If so, the answer is: I'm not socking, this is my sole account on this wiki. --Laird (talk) 04:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I should not have used the word "consensus" in that manner; that was a mistake on my part. My point is that the editors doing this research will be able to come to your same judgment themselves if there's merit to it. Due to the contentious nature of this article and the drama surrounding it, I'm somewhat unwilling to take someone else's word for it when they say this will be the case. I'm sure other editors agree; as a group we tend to like coming to our own conclusions. A delete vote recently failed for this article, so as much as your post may legitimately be trying to help, it's unlikely to sway anyone looking to clean up the article, and it's not going to succeed in re-opening a deletion vote this soon after the last one. - Grant (Talk) 05:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- there seems to be some confusion over what OS 0 1 2 actually is. One editor here sees it as software, I see it as a philosophical structure seems to be deliberately obfuscated. My question above did not in my opinion get a clear response. Timecube is a bit clearer than this concept. I suggest it stay at least for a while. Mr Viharo is welcome to clarify or expand the article. We seem to have a few articles that explain why some wooish thing is actually real and useful Hamster (talk) 04:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Grant, thanks for the response. In fact, I made no attempt to respond to your point, but I will do so now. You suggested that there are editors trying to work out what is true and what is false in the article. My point is that once unbiased truth is established in the article, nothing in the article will fulfil this wiki's purposes. The unbiased truth is that Rome is neither a supporter of pseudoscience nor a crank. Thus, there's no reason to document him on this wiki, and this article should be deleted. You suggest that my contribution doesn't "help approach consensus in any way", but how is consensus approached if not by different people offering their different arguments and opinions, and trying to understand one another? From my perspective, I'm doing exactly what is necessary to form consensus: carefully explain what I think is a rational point of view, and give others the chance to respond rationally to it. Let me ask you: is there anything factually incorrect or rationally incoherent about what I've written so far on this page? If not, then why would it not count as an effort towards consensus? How can I contribute to consensus if I remain silent? (Is that what you're suggesting I do?) Marlow, was your question addressed to me? If so, the answer is: I'm not socking, this is my sole account on this wiki. --Laird (talk) 04:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Why are you socking? --Marlow (talk) 04:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- You mentioned you responded to my point, yet I don't see the response. My point was that these additions, which add no new information, don't actually help approach consensus in any way. - Grant (Talk) 04:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm a little confused. If this wiki values rationality, then why, when I mount a carefully sourced and constructed rational argument, is that argument dismissed and ignored with pejoratives ("wikilawyering" and "wall o' text") and irrelevancies ("what makes Rome feel happy in his pants", "what makes Rome finally stop ranting and go away" and "your only edit on this wiki")? Where is the rational response to my actual argument (that this article fails to meet any of RationalWiki's purposes, and thus should be deleted)? --Laird (talk) 03:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- I had an edit conflict, but Kels' post stated almost all of my views pretty adequately. There are some editors wandering through the article trying to find out what's true and what isn't. If there's really false stuff in there, it will get filtered out. The more often these long screeds get posted, the harder it is to do that, since there's just that much more material. Less is more in this case. - Grant (Talk) 00:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Laird for comment. @hamster - OS 0 1 2 is just a way to approach a discussion and I do not believe that you or anyone will get 'how' it does this until the platform comes out. Earlier versions of os 0 1 2 going back years ago were either a:) tongue in cheek attempts to get conversation started (so I could test these principles in discussion) or b.) my own work in progress, i.e. working through my thoughts through on the concept. Although the principles have not changed, I have. Everything out on the web is dated. For this, I think it's better that I actually take the site down. In a few weeks, I will have a page up for AL 0 1 2 and it will be crystal clear what it is. I'm not interested in promoting os 0 1 2, I havent for years, so equally not interested in explaining my thought process 8 years ago. The platform just insures that all statements are considered through three truth values - each statement is defended or supported through questioning and response - and that rational consensus is defined by behaviors that the platform deems honest and collaborative. It structures the process in such a way that both sides in an ideological tit for tat actually work together and build consensus together, i.e. both sides can 'win' consensus as long as they approach the discussion rationally and honestly. It filters out ad hom and personal attacks. The platform is agnostic. It turns discussion into somewhat of a game. That's all it is. and it either works like it claims it will, or it wont. RomeViharo (talk) 15:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Shouldn't that be:
- It works (1)
- It doesn't (2)
- Who knows (0)
- Placeholder (talk) 15:07, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Ha - nice to see something that is so obfuscated already being used :). Also want to clarify something - AL 0 1 2 is something 'new' - and like all new things, needs to have new language to explain what it is and what it does. I was waaay over my head when I took this on 11 years ago. The web was not as evolved as it is today. Wikipedia was not even on the radar yet. There were no social networks like there are today. The word 'meme' was not even a commonly used word. I attempted to explain it many different ways and explored explaining it different ways. In hindsight, I over complicated it, over 'thunk' it, over dramatized it in the past. It was just part of the creative process. However I am very proud of the progress and scope. RomeViharo (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's amazing how hard it is to tell your writing apart from Laird's, who seems to only be concerned with this article about you. And how lucky to find someone besides yourself, in fact the only person so far, who seems to find descriptions of OS/AL 0 1 2 to be understandable and clear. You two must be very good friends. --Kels (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Kels, if you're trying to suggest that I'm Rome's sock puppet, then you're the second person to make that suggestion, so let's clear this up - it's very simple, just run a check on my IP (I think it's dynamic, so there may be more than one). You'll find that I'm in a totally different country to Rome, working off a direct connection (from my home) to my country's major telecommunications provider. But it's nice to be compared favourably. Also, if you read my original post, you'll find that I mentioned that I did *not* find Rome's description of OS 0 1 2 to be understandable, and in fact found it very confusing, just like you guys. It is only through Skype IMs with Rome that I've found some greater clarity. In any case, I am away travelling for a few days - will check in again with interest to this page when I get back. All the best. --Laird (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- and like all new things, needs to have new language to explain what it is and what it does. if you can not do it in english then dont worry about it ;-) (because ratwiki needed a TQ Hamster (talk) 18:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's amazing how hard it is to tell your writing apart from Laird's, who seems to only be concerned with this article about you. And how lucky to find someone besides yourself, in fact the only person so far, who seems to find descriptions of OS/AL 0 1 2 to be understandable and clear. You two must be very good friends. --Kels (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Several years of trolling skeptic forums is supposedly R&D for a vaporous platform that can't be explained in plain language. OK. Sure. Tell us more. Leuders (talk) 19:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Ha - nice to see something that is so obfuscated already being used :). Also want to clarify something - AL 0 1 2 is something 'new' - and like all new things, needs to have new language to explain what it is and what it does. I was waaay over my head when I took this on 11 years ago. The web was not as evolved as it is today. Wikipedia was not even on the radar yet. There were no social networks like there are today. The word 'meme' was not even a commonly used word. I attempted to explain it many different ways and explored explaining it different ways. In hindsight, I over complicated it, over 'thunk' it, over dramatized it in the past. It was just part of the creative process. However I am very proud of the progress and scope. RomeViharo (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] AL 0 1 2: what Sprocket reckons
Smells like vaporware.
From where I sit, AL 0 1 2 looks like a system for crowdsourcing objective truth(TM) with an automated voting system using ternary logic. I'm thinking of something like Citizendium with robo-vetting of contributors. I suspect it may place too much reliance on the competence and good faith/etiquette of the user base. A system for evaluating user "goodness" based on their voting history could possibly be coded, but getting that algorithm right would take some serious talent and application, on the part of some brilliant thinkers. Who is working on this?
The whole "I dont want to have to 'explain' how it works - it's too difficult in this medium." business is basically an unconvincing courtier's reply.
Rome's offer to pitch it one-on-one via skype reminds me of the kind of presentation once associated with vacation condo timesharing. No thanks, not even with a chicken dinner and a weekend schooner cruise. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Not a voting system (for the rational consensus component). It does have voting but voting is more for personal commentary or popular questions. Doesn't use ternary logic, just has three category assignments. Never offered to 'pitch' it to you or anyone, rather if they wanted an explanation, I would share visuals over skype because I don't want to release those documents online. duh. And I offered this because it's very easy to see but more difficult to explain. It was a courtesy offer, but like most courtesies, abused and twisted into something punitive. Not surprised. Not sure why I would answer any more of your questions SJC, it appears when I made you an offer you snarked all over it. For now, it will have to rest in the '0' for you. But dont let that stop you from forming false opinions about something! RomeViharo (talk) 16:17, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
@kels - I'm not complaining about be snarked, I'm complaining about harassing and libelous statements and contexts being made about me in a place of public media with the intentions to embarass. I'm just *noting* that the only thing supporting any of the arguments for keeping the page the way it is *snarky* opinions of a personal nature and not empirical facts. Also, thanks for the compliment - you should see my tush. RomeViharo (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
@hamster - I'm not going to call it a logic until it has a formal proof, which I don't need at this stage and until it can be defined in a formal proof, its inaccurate to call it a logic - I have an advisor who is a retired math professor and I am following his advice here, it makes sense to me. RomeViharo (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- as you like. I am from a practical programming background so if you are using If 0 then X else if 1 the Y else if 2 then Z you are using a ternary (3 value) logic system. Hamster (talk) 22:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] I've already put it in the plainest of language - if you don't understand, then you have to ask specific questions
AL 0 1 2 is a collective editor. That's easy to understand, right? It assigns editing permissions based on user behaviors sorting or assigning statements and arguments in 0, 1 and 2. Rational consensus editing is awarded through co-operative behavior. The rational consensus is what allows editing permissions and editing permissions can be limited to one statement or even a word or expanded to cover the entire article. There are two things guiding the rational consensus on the platform. Part of it is programmatic and is done by the platform - the remaining decisions are made by the collective arguing for their sortings in tit for tat. Each sorting category of course has it's own unique rules, both programmatic and natively heuristic for the editors to interpret in tit for tat. RomeViharo (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Not promoting OS 0 1 2
I took the site down - its dated. I will be (and kinda already am) promoting AL 0 1 2. The only documentation is here. Sure, be suspicious that its vapor - i don't care I'm wanting you to challenge it, especially when it launches. But until you actually see it, the only thing that is vapor is your idea about it. Since you declined an invitation to see some visuals and mock ups, I'm assuming you're more attached to your own vapor than any of you are likely to admit :) RomeViharo (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- I understand that you don't care to have your scheme cast into a frame of "explained poorly or not at all— likely bullshit." To a certain extent, you have my sympathy. With that and a handful of loose change, you can probably get a cup of coffee.
- The simple fact is that until the system is up and running, and robust enough to survive public scrutiny, invitation-only mock-ups and visuals amount to so much hand-waving. Seen too much of that kind of nonsense, I have, and kicked it out of my lab post-haste. It could be a pain when management wanted me to "give it a chance," but unless the system worked, and in a timely fashion, out it went. You may understand how I have developed a certain sensitivity to such things. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:23, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hey man, I'm not a spring chicken and I'm not a student in one of your labs. AL 0 1 2 will be my second patent this year and I work my ass off. I'm an inventor/developer and entrepreneur. I've sold a company previously and launching two now. I've had to present numerous innovative ideas over the years and I know full well where things get lost in translation. I offered to show you the exact same documents my programmer is building off of as a courtesy and an opening to productive dialogue and *per* your request for more information. It's unfair to say this is vapor when you declined an invitation to see internal mock ups or evaluate the platform once it launches. I even invited to give you an invite to be a test participant. THIS site decided to attack me for something it knows nothing about - and I've been more than transparent and courteous when faced with such clear negativity. RomeViharo (talk) 17:54, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- Where did you get the idea that the labs I've worked in had anything to do with academia? Your AL 0 1 2 "documentation" looks more like an autobiographical rant than a technical exposition. Internal mock-ups? That doesn't get past my personal triage system.
- Expectations of courtesy are something that sales people too easily abuse. You may be an entrepreneur and promoter, but until AL 0 1 2 actually launches and sustains itself, none of your verbiage cuts any ice with me. Have a nice day, Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- I used to do software evaluations for a major company. Typically a new item got 5 minutes to get put in the 'read in detail later' basket. Your page on OS 0 1 2 was a waste of 5 minutes. Maybe you need help on technical and advertising writing to present a clear, easily understood product presentation. It is often a mistake to try promoting an unfinished concept, since it will get rejected for early flaws and once rejected getting people to take another look is hard. From my point of view your stuff is right up there with ZEBULON X IS COMING !!! Hamster (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hey man, I'm not a spring chicken and I'm not a student in one of your labs. AL 0 1 2 will be my second patent this year and I work my ass off. I'm an inventor/developer and entrepreneur. I've sold a company previously and launching two now. I've had to present numerous innovative ideas over the years and I know full well where things get lost in translation. I offered to show you the exact same documents my programmer is building off of as a courtesy and an opening to productive dialogue and *per* your request for more information. It's unfair to say this is vapor when you declined an invitation to see internal mock ups or evaluate the platform once it launches. I even invited to give you an invite to be a test participant. THIS site decided to attack me for something it knows nothing about - and I've been more than transparent and courteous when faced with such clear negativity. RomeViharo (talk) 17:54, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
There is no presentation of the platform anywhere online - you just evaluated a dated website thats a philosophical thought document thats also tongue in cheek. Its not even online any more. And its not about the actual platform. So you have not evaluated anything. Nice try though. RomeViharo (talk) 01:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
@Sprocket J Cogswell - You're high if you think I was trying to sell you something and thats a pretty bad faith assessment, even some what naively paranoid. The reality check is you were given an invitation to view an internal document as a courtesy given to a request you specifically made yourself and you declined. You're own behaviors are evidence you have no interest in actually assessing something even though you claimed you would. So it seems since my verbiage doesnt cut the mustard, then the current verbiage on the article can't cut the mustard either and should be deleted. RomeViharo (talk) 01:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Not seeing any evidence or sources for spreading pseudoscience and conspiracy theories yet
Very misleading, libelous and unsupported. Written in this voice the article intends to embarrass the subject. RomeViharo (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- Launches huge website, gives interviews, and incessantly tweets that ideologue skeptics are orchestrating a campaign to personally bully him and unfairly denigrate Sheldrake's pseudoscientific ideas. And how is this different than spreading a conspiracy theory? Leuders (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- 1. 'Conspiracy Theory' is a weasel word. On this site, which actually debunks what most associate as conspiracy theories are usually lunatic ideas or fringe ideas, it certainly implies 'crank'. That hardly applies to my situation.RomeViharo (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- 2. If you want to call it a 'conspiracy theory' - thats your word and not how I explain it. That's a little disingenuous and makes it look like you're willing to argue any absurdity to justify the article. I explain it as 'group think' and I have actual evidence of editors 'conspiring' to get me sanctioned off of wikipedia. This is not a conspiracy theory - this is actual evidence on Wikipedia. It's an objective interpretation. Others have made the same observation. This is just reporting the facts. See for yourself. Here is where Vzaak and others began to strategize and work towards my sanction, two weeks before it happened. First they tried to get me sanctioned for actually spreading conspiracy theories because I asked if any of them were GSoW. Then they tried to sanction be for sockpuppetry and when that did not work, they brought up the trolling charge with discussion forums from 2003 as evidence. All the while there is no evidence of any disruptive behaviors on the page.RomeViharo (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- 3. I hardly think participating in a wiki war over sources in a BLP would constituted me 'promoting pseudoscience'. Especially when I edited anonymously. You've been given sources of what I actually promote. This just brings me back to my original argument, this article is payback for editing the Sheldrake article on WP. If this article isn't about that - then there absolutely nothing here that is evidence I promote pseudoscience.RomeViharo (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- 4. Being interviewed on Skeptiko only means I am promoting Wikipedia we have a problem.com - just like John Searle or Richard Wiseman appearing on Skeptico does not mean that Searle promotes pseudoscience. Technically this is an association fallacy and often found in ugly politics in presidential elections and Fox news. Is that what Rational Wiki does too? Apparently. RomeViharo (talk) 17:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Its not a 'conspiracy theory' its a fact. http://wikipediawehaveaproblem.com/aftermath/ I hardly think you are going to be able actually argue that my presence on Rational Wiki was not caused by editing on Wikipedia. RomeViharo (talk) 00:50, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- A link to your own screed? Oh sure, that's sure to be objective. Leuders (talk) 00:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
An article on me first appeared on Rational Wiki in relationship to editing Sheldrake's article so for you to deny the evidence on Rational Wiki is quite a bizarro argument, not sure if you're just delusional or actually practicing deception. My site has links to archived sources which support my claim, so yes it is objective enough to refute this charge of 'spreading conspiracy theories'. But since your lazy I'll make it even easier for you to see and more absurd for you to deny. On Oct 17th I was banned indef from Wikipedia and had my identity outed by Vzaak. My identity then appeared on Rational Wiki on Oct 19th on Rupert Sheldrake's article, with my own section. I never had an entry on Rational Wiki before, and no one here ever would have heard about me otherwise. RomeViharo (talk) 01:22, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't see it your way. Looks to me like you got thrown off WP and wrote an emotional rant claiming there's a conspiracy plotting against you. You need to take your butthurt about WP to some other forum. I would suggest Wikipediocracy, but it seems they threw you out of there, too. Leuders (talk) 02:14, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- The difference is the evidence supports my claim. Your rant is just comprised of a bunch of weasel words. RomeViharo (talk) 03:14, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Please remove section 'Bullshit'
Claiming that I 'bullshit' means I am lying or practicing deception. This is a libelous statement - clearly with the intention to disparage. What is wrong with your ethics here people? RomeViharo (talk) 02:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Laird's recent rewrite for fairness and balance
Hello again. I'm back from my trip, and, as promised, have checked back in with interest. I've just taken the time to rewrite the article fairly substantially. Until now, it seems to have been mostly an attack piece focussed on putting Rome in the worst light possible, and misinterpreting and disparaging him. I have tried to correct this imbalance so that the article is now more factually correct and representative of reality. This has involved removing various descriptions that cannot be supported, for example Rome's supposed support for pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, removing commentary designed primarily to denigrate Rome and/or his activities without recognising the genuine value in them, as well as removing the newly-added section "Bullshit", which seems to have been added purely to do damage in a mean-spirited personal attack. I welcome your responses to this rewrite. --Laird (talk) 08:05, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- A copy of Laird's rewrite is found here, for those who want to discuss what they think. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 09:23, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I assume there is nothing controversial about Laird's edit of the article. Although Laird's version I also would want to see changes to, it at least removes unsupported bias and disgruntled personal attacks and libel. I look forward to seeing it implemented. Thank you for your time on this Laird. RomeViharo (talk) 14:49, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- If you would specify this "Libel", we would be happy to re-examine this. If not, too bad.--The Madman (talk) 16:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)The Madman
- There is no libel. There never was libel. Rome has simply been using that as a snarl word throughout, which has done nothing to help his credibility. As to the new article, it seems a bit of a whitewash and removes pretty much all the snark so there's not much heart to it, but on the other hand I don't really mind it that much. Rome isn't really worth that much effort. --Kels (talk) 17:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- I am sorry but my claim of libel is entirely accurate. Libel is publishing a false statement that is harmful to someone's reputation. This article over the history has claimed that I am a known troll, a sockpuppet mastermind, a master of bullshit, a conspiracy theorist, a promoter of pseudoscience in addition to a number of other untrue claims. SInce all of those are not true, and harmful to my professional reputation thats textbook libel. I work in technology and media as a consultant and I am also considered a white hat operator who is trusted for their credibility. This article mis represents me and discredits me with a clear intention (as talk page shows) to embarass. I'm not using that word to threaten lawsuit or legal action - it's far to costly and risky and I'm not going down that road. I'm stating it as a fact. You might not want to call it libel because you dont want to honestly reflect on what you're doing to another human being online, and the more ridiculous of a picture you paint of me in your mind, the more you can justify and even participate in this sort of bullying. Thats your group think working. RomeViharo (talk) 03:41, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Did anyone ever figure out how Laird found this one obscure Rationalwiki article? Hipocrite 17:26, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Why?
Viharo seems *obsessed* to present himself as a rationalist not linked to any conspiracy theories (this is despite the fact his logged internet history shows he holds them and some eccentric views) so he wants his page deleted. Now I could understand if Viharo was a scholar or a scientist and that this page linking him to conspiracy theories could be career damaging. However, Viharo himself seems to be a nobody (no offense). He's just a "digital/social media entrepreneur". Why does it matter if he is linked to a few conspiracy theories online? Its not damaging in any way. 4 archives and hundreds of comments, just seems a fuss over nothing. Torch (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- It matters because
- 1. I do not promote conspiracy theories
- 2. Conspiracy theory is a weasel word that also can mean a 'crank'
- 3. Maybe to you I'm a nobody - but to me and in the world that I am in, I am someone who is harmed by being labeled a supporter or what ever of conspiracy theories. I don't think its fair for you or anyone to say that something that is untrue is not harmful.
- 4. Its also not who I am - and since I am a nobody like you mention, people searching for me (which happens often due to my profession) they dont find out what I am known for, they find out something i am not known for.
- 5. What 'logged in' internet history are you talking about and what conspiracy theories do you think you have evidence I believe in? Snooping is creepy, and I challenge you to find any evidence of any conspiracy theory I support.
- 6. Accusing someone of spreading conspiracy theories because they claim they were harassed by a group of activists is kinda a cheap shot, especially since I have gone on record clarifying otherwise.
- 7. I am a rationalist. I'm also an agnostic. Yes I find it offensive when my views are either misrepresented or taken out of context. RomeViharo (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
If you were a rationalist you wouldn't have posted the following under Tumbleman:
[6]""There is no reasonable claim an editor can make regarding Morphic Resonance as Pseudoscience [...] what reasons do you as an editor support Morphic Resonance being held to WP:FRINGE as pseudo science? I am not seeing a clear case here and want to understand. - Tumbleman" —{{{2}}}
This comment directly contradicts your later statement:
[7]""Personally I have no interest in promoting Rupert Sheldrake’s ideas or his hypotheses and I really can’t say scientifically if they’re valid or invalid."" —{{{2}}}
- You posted Morphic Resonance cannot be substantiated as pseudo-science.
- Consensus among virtually all scientists is that Morphic Resonance is pseudo-science.
So it is not libel you support pseudo-science. Torch (talk) 09:45, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
1. I was arguing against WP FRINGE being applied to a biography page. Other neutral editors supported that as well. So you're confusing a policy discussion with a scientific one. That's quite disingenuous argument because I have gone on record saying I don't know anything about the science one way or another and don't promote Sheldrake- rather I was arguing that Morphic resonance does not fall under the 'pseudoscience' fringe guideline and ruling the way it was being applied on Wikipedia on a BLP. It was a policy wonk, not a scientific argument. Thats is not the same thing as saying morphic resonance is true or a successful hypothesis and means I 'promote it'. You say there is consensus that virtually all scientists consider it pseudoscience but the sources were not there on Wikipedia to support that argument and there were conflicting sources that suggested otherwise. And this was an anonymous argument given for editorial problems arising on a Wikipedia article. I do not support 'pseudoscience' and anonymous arguments I made on Wikipedia would hardly count for me being known for promoting pseudoscience. There is no contradiction. You're simply confusing an editorial argument for a scientific one - and taking an anonymous argument out of context, thereby inferring that yes, this article is payback for editing a WP article. RomeViharo (talk) 15:35, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Firstly
Why is this page archived with nothing on it when it has seen frequent conversation. This doesn't seem right at all. Who has the wiki-fu to undo this archival? Tielec01 (talk) 03:26, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- You do. I'm just trying to get this ceaseless and empty exercise to go away. PowderSmokeAndLeather (talk) 03:37, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- messed up the edit comment there. Basically Laird is right, enough time has gone by with no serious objections so time to go with the new version. It's not like people can't tweak it to liven up the writing or if Rome actually does something of note like actually try to implement AL 90125 or something. --Kels (talk) 04:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Seriously, fuck that noise. Rome is a troll who uses internet arguments he purposely creates as so called "research" for his various hair brained theories. People are right not to engage with him. In this case silence is not consent. The version you reinstated is entirely uncritical and is obviously written in direct consultation with Rome as it references Romes own personal reactions to various events. --Marlow (talk) 05:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Silence isn't criticism either. I don't care if a new version goes in that then gets heavily edited, that's absolutely fine from a wiki standpoint. You seem to feel very strongly about all this, why don't you take a crack at a rewrite, given the original version isn't that great either. --Kels (talk) 05:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't care enough to re-write this sharticle, but do I care enough not to have some sycophantic ass-licking autobiography here. What is the problem with the current article Kels? I'll do my best to whip it into shape if I have time. Tielec01 (talk) 06:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Alright 5 minutes of research tells me this:
- I don't care enough to re-write this sharticle, but do I care enough not to have some sycophantic ass-licking autobiography here. What is the problem with the current article Kels? I'll do my best to whip it into shape if I have time. Tielec01 (talk) 06:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Silence isn't criticism either. I don't care if a new version goes in that then gets heavily edited, that's absolutely fine from a wiki standpoint. You seem to feel very strongly about all this, why don't you take a crack at a rewrite, given the original version isn't that great either. --Kels (talk) 05:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Seriously, fuck that noise. Rome is a troll who uses internet arguments he purposely creates as so called "research" for his various hair brained theories. People are right not to engage with him. In this case silence is not consent. The version you reinstated is entirely uncritical and is obviously written in direct consultation with Rome as it references Romes own personal reactions to various events. --Marlow (talk) 05:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- messed up the edit comment there. Basically Laird is right, enough time has gone by with no serious objections so time to go with the new version. It's not like people can't tweak it to liven up the writing or if Rome actually does something of note like actually try to implement AL 90125 or something. --Kels (talk) 04:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Rome is a nobody;
- He has occasionally posted in forums about his ideas without letting people know it is self-promotion;
- His ideas are an incoherent mess typically riding on the coat tails of more famous concepts or people;
- There are some grains of truth to his ideas (as there is to almost all ideas)
- He has had a popular talk on TED;
- He has caused an argument on Wikipedia and been blocked - mostly due to an inability to gather his thoughts and marshal his words in a way that makes sense to anyone else; and
- He's kind of petty and annoying - but not seriously harming anyone because no-one really cares too much.
- I don't think we need an article on this guy. I was worried that the purpose of the constant bullshit on this page was to make us too embarrassed to keep the article. In essence it could be a stealthy way to get us to delete the article. I no longer think this is the case, although I have no doubt Rome will be claiming that this was all part of some sort of grand plan. Delete the article, or keep it in user-space until he actually does something deserving of a mention, otherwise we also need to be writing articles for that weird girl I met yesterday that thought plants had souls etc... That's his level of notability.
- TL;DR
- Burn with fire. Tielec01 (talk) 07:45, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's important to note that his talk was a TEDx talk. This is significantly different from TED (anyone can organize a TEDx talk if they want to put the work in to do so, and as long as they follow TED's rules, it's generally fine). I'm somewhat in agreement with you here. My research drums up nothing on OS 0 1 2 (or AL 0 1 2) that can easily be commented on. It's incomprehensible, and if it's vaporware... So what? Do we have or need an article on AOL? As for the TEDx talk, TEDx talks in and of themselves are not notable, and after watching the talk, I couldn't really find much in the way of a coherent point to latch onto. With regards to his apparent support for Sheldrake, I ask again: do we really need articles for every Joe Blow supporter of woo or pseudoscience out there? I don't think so. - Grant (Talk) 16:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
The community voted JUST THIS MONTH to keep the article. Therefore, we keep the article. End of discussion. PowderSmokeAndLeather (talk) 16:53, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- However, trawling through this talk page, I find both that the number of people who have expressed a desire for the page to be deleted is greater than those who have expressed desire for it to be kept, and that the arguments for deletion are far more compelling. Keeps: Bob, Scream!!, Kels, PowderSmokeAndLeather, The Madman (all at Talk:Rome_Viharo/Archive4#Delete), plus RBryant (at Talk:Rome_Viharo/Archive3#Delete_template). Deletes: Evolutionist, RomeViharo (both at Talk:Rome_Viharo/Archive4#Delete), Human, Leuders (perhaps changed mind later, since seems to be happy editing the article - won't count in the tally) GrantC, Weaseloid, PowderSmokeAndLeather (but later changed mind as voted for "weak" keep - won't count in tally) (all at Talk:Rome_Viharo/Archive3#Delete_template), Gecko (at Talk:Rome_Viharo/Archive3#A_reasonable_suggestion), Laird (at Talk:Rome_Viharo/Archive4#An_argument_for_deletion, Tielec01 (above). That gives a total of 6 keeps and 8 deletions, plus 2 later-change-of-mind deletions. It seems that the majority is actually for "delete". --Laird (talk) 21:02, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- *shrug* Sure, that's true. However, if we're going to keep an arguably shit article, then it might be a good idea to figure out how to make it less shit, no? My research suggests there's little to nothing worth including, and I stated that opinion. However, someone else may very well look over my words and find something in the article that can be changed or altered. I don't see this as a bad thing. - Grant (Talk) 16:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] A comment by Laird
Firstly, sorry for the length of this comment: I wanted to be comprehensive.
Secondly, thank you, Tielec01, for initiating this conversation, and thank you Kels for your support for allowing my rewrite of the article to stand - I think your suggestion that it could then be edited by those who are not fully satisfied with it is a persuasive one.
However, if this article is so undeserving of our time, as several editors are objecting, apparently because Rome isn't worth the effort, then why is it even worth including an article on him on this wiki at all? So, he spent a bit of time about a decade ago posting dramatically to forums about an idea that many (but not all) people found confusing and vague - is this really worthy of a RationalWiki article, especially considering that he has since developed his idea to the point that it is being implemented in software? Where's the value in this for the reader?
My responses to the objections raised so far to my rewrite are:
Objection: It is too uncritical; it is a whitewash. (Kels on this talk page (who nevertheless thinks my rewrite should stand); Alec Sanderson on Talk:Brxbrxhttp#Your_revert_to_my_edit; Marlow above)
My response: OK, so, let's try to find a compromise. I did try to retain in my rewrite the criticism that seemed valid to me, which I've also acknowledged above - the vagueness, confusion and drama of Rome's original presentation of OS 0 1 2. It seems to me that the other criticisms in the original article were (are) either too petty to be worth including (e.g. that Rome solicited donations for his idea), or manifestly false (e.g. that Rome concluded that Google is conscious in his TEDx talk). Which criticisms that I dropped would objectors propose that we introduce into my rewrite, and which (if any) new criticisms do they think should be added, and why?
Objection: I am Rome's sock-puppet, and we should not allow Rome (as a sock) to write his own article. (Marlow in the revision history of this article, who above seemed to suggest instead that I am an independent person, since he suggests I consulted with Rome - I am apparently misunderstanding Marlow somehow)
My response: As I wrote earlier on this talk page (now archived), this is easy enough to disprove through an IP check. I am contributing through an ordinary ISP connection (not a proxy) from the opposite side of the world to Rome.
Objection: It was written in direct consultation with Rome. (Marlow, above)
My response: The only direct influence Rome has had on my rewrite is subsequent to its first drafting and posting: I replaced the quote on scientism from his interview with Alex with a quote on groupthink from that same interview, because, according to Rome, it better reflects his views. [Edit: I've just remembered that there is one other thing: it was also Rome's suggestion that "Wikipedia we have a problem" deserved mention. I agreed, and wrote it in without further input]. For corroboration that I drafted and submitted this rewrite independently, please refer to Rome's reaction to it on this talk page (now archived): "Laird's version I also would want to see changes to".
Objection: It is a sycophantic ass-licking autobiography. (Tielec01, above)
My response: Again, then, let's find a compromise. Why not let the rewrite stand and allow others to edit it into shape? It's a better base than the current version, which seems to have been written out of malice, and does RationalWiki's credibility no favours.
Finally: Leuders, I deferred my response to your comments on my talk page (signed with timestamp 05:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC) for those who want to look them up) to my comments here. You might get a sense from what I've written above what that response is: I don't think that anything you reference about Rome is either significant enough or accurate enough to warrant and be included in a RationalWiki article. Even if I thought "trolling" was an accurate description of his activities - which I don't - is RationalWiki to become a reference of every troll on the internet, and if not, what about Rome's "trolling" qualifies it for inclusion here? I also think that he has a good case that he was banned from Wikipedia through the collaborative efforts of a group of sceptic activist editors. We can agree to disagree on that, but I think it's only fair for you to acknowledge the nuance of his position on this as a "conspiracy", which he outlines in his interview with Alex. Rome actually prefers the term "groupthink" to "conspiracy", and agreed with Alex that he was the victim of a "conspiracy" only when Alex explained what he meant by that term - and he means something very loose (listen from 34:17 to 35:05, and again from 35:49 to 36:05, or, if you can't be bothered, I'm happy to provide a transcript of those sections - just ask). In other words, SPOV might very well apply, but only when there's something of note to apply it to, and, in my opinion, in this case, there isn't. --Laird (talk) 07:12, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Laird, Rome was only banned a few days ago on Wikipedia on another sock account, his sock this time was called No more scary monsters [8]. Your claim he hasn't sock puppeted is just dishonest. He creates accounts on Wikipedia every few months and shows no sign of stopping, just like he created countless socks on here and has even pretended to be females on forums to promote his nonsense. You may be his business partner but he's had you duped buddy. As for libel well Rome has an entire webpage on insulting and posting personal information/libel about wikipeda editors and skeptics [9]. So he moans when someone does it to him but he's ok to create a website and insult others? An eye for eye... :) Lucytaylor (talk) 12:44, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hello, Lucy. Let's just get something out of the way first: I'm not Rome's business partner. I'm not quite sure how you came to believe that I am. Secondly, I didn't claim that Rome has not socked; I claimed that I am not Rome's sock puppet. There's a difference. As far as Rome's supposed sock puppetry goes: whilst I think it's an irrelevancy because it wouldn't warrant a RationalWiki article on him even if it were true, I will put on the record that I accept (because in my experience it has proven to be trustworthy) Rome's word that he has never used more than one account at a time on Wikipedia, here on RationalWiki, and on all forums on which he posted about OS 0 1 2, and in my view, that's all that matters. I realise that Wikipedia technically classes creating a new account to avoid a ban as "sock puppetry", but (1) I'm not sure that that's a standard definition and (2) even if it is, I don't see it as deserving of the opprobrium you seem to want to confer on Rome for it, especially considering that (in his view and in mine) his original banning from Wikipedia was an abuse of process. Rome has done nothing improper with any of his Wikipedia accounts, in particular he has never used them to pretend to be another user in order to prop up his own comments - which to me is the more standard definition of sock puppetry, or at least the only one that warrants any of the sort of opprobrium you seem to want to confer on Rome. Finally, and first noting again that this is irrelevant to the question of whether RationalWiki should host a page about Rome, but responding anyway just for the record: I read the page Rome wrote that you linked to, and there was nothing insulting or libellous about it - it seemed entirely factual - nor did I see any "personal" information on it that wasn't information already on the public (mostly Wikipedia's) record. I think it's also fair to acknowledge that Rome put that site up to defend himself against and expose the harm others were doing to him (and other like-minded editors, and the subjects of the articles being edited), not out of any intent to do any harm to anyone else. I don't see Rome's response as "an eye for an eye", I think it's appropriately fair-minded. --Laird (talk) 18:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
- It's worth noting here that part of the earlier consensus to keep the article (or a article at least) included considering his Wikipedia stuff a sideshow at best, as what people do at WP really isn't RW's job to report on. So whether he was socking or not doesn't matter here --Kels (talk) 18:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)