Talk:Same-sex marriage/Archive1

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Personally, I fail utterly to see how two men or two women getting hitched damages the 'sanctity of marriage' in a way that Britney Spears' weekend-long marriage didn't. --Gulik 03:19, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

That was holy matrimony, dammit! --Kels 13:31, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
Also, how does someone else's marriage affect yours? Seems kinda insecure to me if that's a concern. And at least Jason can say he got there before the whole K-Fed fiasco. Jrssr5 14:30, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Contents

[edit] legal vs. religious, and tiny comment

"As with any other religious ceremony, these have legal significance only to the extent the government authorizes; that is, in most states, they have no legal significance whatsoever."

Likewise, the legal state-sanctioned contrat has nothing to do with religion. I hope this can be worked in somehow. leading to churches not being required to marry someone even if they legally can marry.

Also, infra sounds a bit legalistic (since I don't know what it means!). You could add a link to the section, or use (!) English? Like, "see below"? Nice to see the article finally getting some good work, btw! humanbe in 13:17, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

On it!-αmεσ (!) 13:18, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

[edit] Best of RationalWiki-ing

Once I finish fleshing out these sections, I'd like people to add on copyedit etc. I'd like to make this a best of article. So please jump in...-αmεσ (!) 14:00, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

LMK when you've finished the last five sections and I'll look it over... and can you add some funny to make it easier/more enjoyable to read? Hehe humanbe in 14:12, 14 September 2007 (MDT)
Yes indeed! Apologies :-)-αmεσ (!) 14:13, 14 September 2007 (MDT)
Another minor wiki-issue - you have some headers that are the same (happiness). Can you make them different? The TOC works better that way. TX, humanbe in 14:20, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

Alright, I think I'm done. Please correct & go over, and tell me what's overly legal and unclear? And suggest things to add to make it funner?-αmεσ (!) 14:57, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

Gotta run an errand or two, I'll look it over in the next few hours. As I'm sure others will, also. humanbe in 14:59, 14 September 2007 (MDT)
I nominated it. Could it be improved? Always. Does it have any obvious flaws? None jumped out at me, except maybe offsetting the rebuttals to arguments a bit? humanbe in 20:20, 27 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Cover story

Please do not archive this section

  • Cover story maybe?-αmεσ (heckuva job!) 12:04, 16 February 2008 (EST)
  • I think it needs some tweaking - the US discrimlaw template is a bit narrow focus, since this is a worldwide issue. And that needs to play better into how the article is organized. I added the cover template to the article. humanUser talk:Human 12:13, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Might it be best to remove the discrimlaw template, then? And reorg to make it more international with subject headers for United States vs. others?-αmεσ (heckuva job!) 13:53, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Sure - feel free to do it ;) Perhaps the discrimlaw thing could be rigged somehow as a "see also"? humanUser talk:Human 14:08, 25 February 2008 (EST)
I moved the template. We also need to "uncap" all the headers... humanUser talk:Human 14:22, 25 February 2008 (EST)
What's uncap mean?-αmεσ (heckuva job!) 14:25, 25 February 2008 (EST)
Sorry, decapitalize all but the first word & proper nouns. humanUser talk:Human 15:35, 25 February 2008 (EST)
Not until the 'Other Arguments for SSM' section has some content. DogP 21:21, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
I'm going to flesh out that bit as suggested and then we can come back to it. Otherwise it's a perfectly good article. ArmondikoVpathetic 13:52, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Right, done a little. However, I'm concerned about the "it's yucky" section of "against SSM". Is that the kind of snark that's acceptable in a cover story? SPOV and humour is good, but I think we should hold the big, badass articles that we present as our best to a higher standard. ArmondikoVpathetic 14:04, 2 December 2008 (EST)
Feel free to change if you think it is not worthy of a "cover story" - how about "It's unpleasant to think about"? ħumanUser talk:Human 19:35, 2 December 2008 (EST)

[edit] Establishment of Religion argument?

I've been thinking recently that there's an argument to be made that the way marriages in the USA is a violation of the establishment clause. Namely, any religious argument, not carried by all religions, enacted into law naturally establishes that religion as a "state religion". The allowance of priests and pastors and other religious officials to act as state officers in order to bind two people in a legally recognized way invites this whole argument. If one religion's officials are allowed to marry two people legally, and another's are not allowed to marry two people legally, then there is a fundamental violation of rights of religion there. In one way, one could create a religion that refuses to marry anyone but same-sex couples, then being recognized as a religion by the US, would be able to hold an establishment-clause case against the US for establishing civil rules that confer greater rights to people of a different religion. --Eira omtg! The Goat be praised. 06:37, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

As sorta mentioned in an above section, religious marriages in the US are all phoney. All marriages are completely secular civil unions. Officially, a religious figure empowered by whatever state the marriage is taking place in is no different than a judge, mayor, and such. Kinda opposite of Eira's point, but leading to the same conclusion, is that religion and religious traditions have nothing to do with marriage in the US. This is why I find objection to same-sex marriage as absurd.
Heck, thanks to the Universal Life Church on the internets, if I bothered to fill out the proper paperwork with the proper courts, I could perform marriages. --Edgerunner76Tah-daaaaaaah! 07:54, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
I assume that when you write 'phoney', you actually meant to write 'irrelevant in the eyes of the law' or something similar. There's nothing 'phoney' about it from the point of view of those carrying out or going through such ceremonies. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 09:25, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
The part that makes the marriage "legal" is not the religious nature or affiliation of the person performing the ceremony. Religious officials do the same thing, I believe, as anyone who wants to perform legal marriages - they become a notary public. To get married, the couple first gets a (state, secular) marriage license which allows the certification to be performed, then they go to the ceremony performer of their choice, be it a religious official or any random notary. The official essentially oversees the signing/swearing to the contract and the witnessing thereof and stamps the paperwork.
People even do both sometimes - say a couple elopes and does a JOP wedding. Now they are "legally" married. Then their parents pop up and say,"hey, we'll pay for a fancy church wedding". If they go through with that, they are then "bound in God" or whatever their religion calls it.
Eira's point would matter if somehow some state barred certain religious officials from becoming notaries (church of the convicted felon, anyone?), but that would fail constitutional muster so fast it wouldn't slow down any marriages. humanUser talk:Human 12:29, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
I came to this section hoping for looniness and what do I find? Reasonable arguments on all sides. Damn you all! --Star of David.png Radioactive Misanthrope 12:34, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
Yes, I intended "phoney" to mean "the religious affiliation is irrelevant in the eyes of the law". Still, the brutally honest truth is that the religious aspects truly have no relevance. I believe the point I was trying to make was that the "tradition" arguement for denial of same-sex marriage rights has no weight in light of the above. --Edgerunner76Tah-daaaaaaah! 13:06, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
They have significant relevance - not legally, but culturally, emotionally and religiously. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 13:41, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
I don't seem to be explaining myself correctly. I think what we've been getting at is that if you strip away all of the smoke and mirrors, all marriages are exactly the same. The only aspect of a marriage that carries any "weight" would be the legal one. Denial of same-sex marriage rights comes from cultural, emotional, and religious reasons. Therefore, those portions are irrelevant to the same-sex marriage rights debate. --Edgerunner76Tah-daaaaaaah! 13:56, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
Yes I think that, if you found someone who would do it, you could marry a pumpkin and have hot pumpkin sex all day long, but it wont actually be recognized legally. Wut 14:02, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
It depends, in the state of Washington, the religious official doesn't become a notary public, they are explicitly granted by law the right to solemnize marriages. (RCW 26.04.050) "any regularly licensed or ordained minister or any priest of any church or religious denomination". So the question is, what is required to be a licensed and ordained minister? Anyways, for the most part the "traditional family" people are Christians looking to protect the marriage as they see it being valid, even though such a course of action could easily pass the muster of "animus laid bare" used in many cases to, for instance, remove sodomy laws that specifically and exclusively target homosexuals. --Eira omtg! The Goat be praised. 21:06, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] May 2008 California Supreme Court ruling & "American legal arguments for same-sex marriage"

This analysis of the ruling points out some of the arguments used to strike down the ban, including the connotations of the word marriage, equal protection, etc. Can someone use this to expand on the American legal arguments section? The full 172-page ruling can be found here.--DysPerDisTalk to me 14:47, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] CT

Interseting, but it seems the way this is going to get past the conservative Right Wing USSC is to have each and every state show that at state level, marriage is marriage, civil unions are something else, adn they can never be equal. Not sure how DOMA is going to be able to stand, saying that the Feds have the right to supercede the decisions of states, though. --Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"To-morrow, when I wake, or think I do, what shall I say of to-day?" 15:12, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I think it would be cool if all of New England + New York legalised it. Just the fact that MA and CT share a border is sorta cool, in a "freedom of movement" kind of way... ħumanUser talk:Human 15:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
DOMA really isn't constitutional, at least the states don't have to accept contracts from other states nonsense. If That were to be argued before the Supreme Court, it would be very hard to justify defending it. It is a complete contradiction of the constitution. SirChuckBHITWIN FOR PRESIDENT! 15:41, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
If they don't wanna recognize my marriage to Gabrielle, how about my state not recognizing their divorce from wife number two? (Huh Newt?) 22:28, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Sexuality?

I am somewhat confused as to why this article is in the "Human Sexuality" category, and I am considering removing the template from the page. If anyone can tell me a good reason to keep it, I will, but... well, I see no point... Javasca₧ I like unrefined cutting boards

Well, the sexuality tempalate is just a way of grouping things, it isn't necessarily strictly "sexuality" but it's related. ArmondikoVpathetic 09:35, 1 December 2008 (EST)
I have a dream! A dream of when people's sexchual oriantatingshun will no longer affect how they are treated under law - a dream that one day, Rash'nal wiki will move this article to a subsection of marriage, as nothing more than an historical footnote! I say to you gain, I have a dream! ħumanUser talk:Human 22:10, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
I am soooo looking forward to the DOMA challenge, and watching prick-for-brains Scalia have to fight between icky bad gays and his "State's Rights/Federalism" mantra. He'll explode. it will be so lovely?!--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"To-morrow, when I wake, or think I do, what shall I say of to-day?" 22:40, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Nations

When discussing Sweden, Yahoo said they would be the first to have legalized gay marriages, and not just Civil Unions. I'm not a big AP fan, as i think they don't research well, but does anyone in the EU know for sure if that's true? I'll change our page if it is. --Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"To-morrow, when I wake, or think I do, what shall I say of to-day?" 20:54, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

Getting breaking news on the RW (the Vermont thing)...who'dathunkit? 21:18, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
And they over rode a veto! puts on her shades and sings "oh the times, they are a-changing".--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"To-morrow, when I wake, or think I do, what shall I say of to-day?" 21:35, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
I'm thinking of the head Blue Meanie lamenting that it's not a blue world anymore while George Harrison sings "It's All Too Much" 21:51, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
Best. Music. Video. Ever. ħumanUser talk:Human 22:07, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
LIverpool's a lonely place on a Saturday night... especially when it's only Tuesday Morning". "Woe is me." "would you belive me if i told you I were being followed by a YellowSubamrien? -- No, No I would not.--Didn't think so..." "Submarines, splosions, ...Blue meanies." (i probably have every line of that memorized. sighs.--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"To-morrow, when I wake, or think I do, what shall I say of to-day?" 22:38, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
I used to watch it every year or so on KPTV channel 12 in Portland, now I have the DVD with the "Hey Bulldog" sequence restored. 22:43, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Status updates by date section

Is missing lots of dates, also, should probably not be the first section in the article (last, maybe). Keep in mind that this is a "cover story"... ħumanUser talk:Human 23:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

One of the reasons I think status should be at or near the top is because that does change, regularly, and is important for both "activists" as well as simply understanding what is changing in the world. While it shoudl be under the "definition" per say, I think it deserves to be near the top... given how volatile this topic is.--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"To-morrow, when I wake, or think I do, what shall I say of to-day?" 19:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, it is in the TOC. Also, it's not very well assembled right now. Perhaps if it were more complete, accurate, footnoted, etc. it would look better as the 2nd or 3rd header? ħumanUser talk:Human 21:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, I just refactored the "nations" section to list them in order. The "updates" section needs to be merged into it. I guess I'll be doing it, but any help (keep your edits quick?) would be appreciated! ħumanUser talk:Human 02:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm mostly done. Would appreciate proofreading, etc. ħumanUser talk:Human 03:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Cut to discuss

"===Rejection of monotony in sexual relationship===

Nobody wants to commit to having sex the same way for a lifetime. Those who are against same-sex marriage are usually for variety-sex marriage."

This was under "arguments against SSM".

What does it even mean? ħumanUser talk:Human 20:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It reads like Proxima at her worst. Stupid cubic Hoover! 20:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
That was me. Joke was based on the idea of having the same sex all the time. Whatever. Guess that attempt at humour didn't work out, but the article looked like it needed some lulz. Comedy non-WIGO. DogPMarmite Patrol 05:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Got it, thanx DogP. A friend of mine wrote an article years ago about "same sex marriage" and made the same joke, only better (because he had 1000 words and no article to work it into) ħumanUser talk:Human 05:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] What do you mean by same sex marriage?

As far as I'm concerned, no government should force a religious institution to 'marry' a same sex couple. Registrary office - fine - but no Christian blessing or any other religious blessing should be even considered without the religious institutions permission. People get caught up over the word 'marriage' - atheists get married in registrary offices all the time but are they actually married? For the vast majority of people marriage is a religious union, thats where it derived from and thats where it remains. Its just a word, no need to get so worked up about it. Gudlack. MarcusCicero 20:30, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Though it revolts me and makes me feel unclean - I agree with MC here. I think marriage as a religious tradition should retain the male/female union. Marriage as a legal binding is open to all. AceMcWicked 20:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
The NH law explicitly states that no-one has to marry a couple they disapprove of. Which has always been the case everywhere anyway, MC. IE, there's no way the local RCC branch office would perform a marriage for me - but some churches might. And, yes, the religious connotations (which of course vary wildly...) of the word "marriage" get a lot of peoples' panties in a twist, but for every aspect that matters "in this world" it's the civil aspects (law and custom) that matter. Of course, if one were married at the registrar or by a JOP, God might not let you spend eternity at his side as a couple. ħumanUser talk:Human 20:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I do not think there has been any talk of making churches recognize any marriages they do not want to recognize, as that would infringe on freedom of religion. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 20:53, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
At least, nothing beyond the occasional bit of fundie fear-mongering. I've seen that claim a couple of times, but it never seems to take long for someone to correct that point, usually using the RCC's policies on marrying divorced individuals as an example.DysPerDisTalk to me 21:56, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Poking around:

Moved the status section lower because, I don't like starting the article with a list. I think that if someone goes to a rational wiki regarding same sex marriage, he'd expect immidiatelly the rational argument not the wikipedia like info. Also the article started with a "status" and ended with another "status" so I merged the two together!

Also changed the order of the "other arguments" and the "american legal arguments". (Which now put the second near the "Conflict of laws American & European" section). Sen (talk) 02:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] This Quote

It's unfortunate that people think of this as something that is a political issue or a conservative or liberal issue. It is a matter of human rights and human decency and liberty.
—Ted Olson

I'm wondering if it can be put here or on another article.

Retrieved from here: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2010/02/debating_samesex_marriage.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+pbs%2Fmoyers%2Fjournal-blog+%28moyers%2Fjournal-blog%29

User:Mectrixctic 18:33, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] disgusting

i think it is disgusting how can you people support this filth omg marriage is one woman one man, this is an insult, disgusting picture of man kissing man oooo that soooo icky like why would you make this article what are you like some kind of perverted? Prejudicial (talk) 17:36, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh come on. Surely you can troll better than just an attack on gays. Try calling us "rational" wiki in quotes, that usually works wonders for your troll cred. --The Emperor Kneel before Zod! 17:43, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

what are you on about you fag this website is sick full of gay things you love the gays you dirty man haha Prejudicial (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Mmmm, this is one of those times when I have a really hard time telling if someone's serious... Aphoxema (talk) 19:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

haha you lot are such poofs my dad says gays are sick and wrong and weird it doesn't suprise me yo poofs are all opver this site typical really you all come in like this saying you are so proud of yourself well you know what IT IS WRONG!!! haha i hope you get the message what you do is wrong and weird and i think we should stop the gays from getting together it is sick and corrupting our young you never know how they might turn up now what with all the gay chat show hosts on the airwaves propagandising their vile message makes me sick its so wrong and weird it should be banned. Prejudicial (talk) 20:17, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks for changing that sick picture those two girls are sooooo hot omg i want to have sex with them they are so beautiful omg thank you for tasking down the pictures of gays Prejudicial (talk) 21:17, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

May I introduce you to my good friend punctuation? DickTurpis (talk) 22:03, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

is that some kind of gay humour are you calling me gay Prejudicial (talk) 22:07, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

i am not gay by the way so take that back Prejudicial (talk) 22:07, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this some sort of conversation you're having with yourself? If so, carry on. DickTurpis (talk) 22:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Never attribute to malice, et cetera, but the only problem I have is I'm not sure if this is the better part malice or stupidity. Aphoxema (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

shut up you fag enablor Prejudicial (talk) 13:01, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Methinks she doth protest too much. Jack Hughes (talk) 13:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Can I..

Move the "American legal arguments for same-sex marriage" section into a separate article of its own? That way, the same sex marriage article could be about "the concept" itself, universally so. (and it would also seem shorter) While the US specific things (or other nations in the future), could have an article of its own. Sen (talk) 20:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


[edit] equality

I understand this article isn't supposed to be neutral, but shouldn't it be based on a rational point of view? The "numerous arguments for, only bigoted or irrational arguments against" approach doesn't do it much credit. The article conveniently stops pursuing an argument just before it would break down. Take the "equality" argument. Sure, laws in modern democracies are designed to treat people equally, so why exclude one group of people ... such as homosexuals? So far so good, but taken to its conclusion, this argument deconstructs the notion of "marriage" completely. What is a "marital union" if it is to exclude nobody? Not homosexuals, not polygamists, not the promiscuous, taken to its conclusion, then, the "equality" argument turns "marital union" into something you should be able to select and deselect each morning depending on how you feel. In other words, make it irrelevant.

The rational conclusion of your approach is that egalitarianism applied to the concept of marriage means that marriage disappears. Your rational conclusion would therefore be not to allow marriages for homosexuals, but to abolish marriage altogether, even for heterosexuals. Either that, or else just leave "marriage" in place as a folkloristic custom of "hetero pride" with no legal advantages. --178.198.125.29 (talk) 20:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Finally something rational! You won't be welcomed here, however. Everyone else are "progressive-ethical" pigs. --Idiot number 59 (talk) 20:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how a homosexual couple who'd like to take a formal vow of fidelity are in the same situation as polygamists and the promiscuous here - why would they want to engage in a one-on-one partnership anyway? A marriage should simply not exclude anyone who wants to bind him- or herself to a partner, and the benefits society offers to couples should be available for all of them, regardless of their sexes. Röstigraben (talk) 20:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
But what if I want to marry my favorite cow? I really, really, really love him! All the white dots and, ahh, these black ears! And such a beautiful big mouth! Why do you evil people forbid me to marry him? --Idiot number 59 (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Your entire argument is based upon the lazy, fallacious slippery slope argument. That argument is: "We should not make a logical choice today, out of fear we won't be able to make a logical distinction tomorrow." The issue is whether gays should be allowed to marry, not whether you and your cow should be allowed to marry. When that issue comes up, let's discuss it then. You and your love affair with your cow is a classic straw man, and not worth addressing as it's not an issue confronting society, only your own personal life. --Leotardo (talk) 21:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
No, you stupid pig. I'm saying that if you think gays can "marry" each other on basis of equality, then reducing this equality to only human beings is clearly hypocritical. And after all, isn't it somewhat "discriminating" to say how many people can marry each other - why not 50? I'd like to have 12 mothers and 7 fathers, some of them cows.
The real thing is that gays aren't discriminated at all. Noone denies the right of any gay man to marry. He can choose any woman he wants. Because marriage is a bound between a man and a woman and there are nothing more than just some age restrictions to it. But to go on telling that men should have the right to "marry" men is nonsense, because that simply isn't marriage. --Idiot number 59 (talk) 22:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
If we give the right to marry to creatures capable of communicating informed consent, it would be hypocritical to not extend that to species who can't! --Kels (talk) 00:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
anyone is free to make as many "formal vows" as they please every day. This is a personal choice. The question is not about "vows", it is about legislation; the question of which ways of life the state should officially sanction. If you want equality, the only sane reply is "none", or you will need to introduce special legal status for every conceivable way of life. The argument that same-sex marriage must be introduced for equality's sake is an expression of bias, i.e. of a sex-centered view of human life, and what's more of a false dichotomy assuming that there are two kinds of people, heterosexuals and homosexuals. This is a possible bias through which you can choose to view the world, but it is irrational to imply that it is somehow the correct way of looking at the world. Sure, it is the biased view homosexuals will take. If you are homosexual and you take pride in being homosexual and you think about your homosexual identity every day, you will end up thinking about the world in this way. But some people are either heterosexual or homosexual or asexual or what have you without basing their identity on this, so the idea that the state should sanction sexual relationships seems completely arbitrary and, yes, irrational.— Unsigned, by: 178.198.125.29 / talk / contribs
OK, so you're arguing that a better way towards equality would be to abolish all of the benefits society bestows upon married couples instead of increasing the scope of who's allowed to marry. Remove tax credits for them, remove marital status as a factor in adoption decisions, and so on. I admit that this would be one way towards equality (let's call it "libertarian equality"), but there are two arguments against choosing this route: first, it's not very practical. Getting all married straight couples to give up their own benefits would be much, much harder that convincing them of allowing homosexuals, and maybe others, to enjoy them as well. Second, and more importantly, there's a difference between taking a vow in private and having it recognized by society at large through an institution such as marriage. The question is whether all relationships are indeed equal, or whether society has a right to privilege some of them. It's a difficult one, not least because those who want to uphold traditional marriages only deploy the same argument, though centered around the possibility of procreation - which is not and has never been a prerequisite of traditional marriage, so it fails in their case. I do think that society has the right to draw some lines and provide incentives for certain relationships, as long as they can be shifted based on the available evidence. A few decades ago, most people would've thought it ridiculous that homosexuals could establish families that are a good environment for child-rearing, but we now know it's very much possible. I guess polygamists can do the same, there are quite a few cultures that officially accept these relationships and they've managed to persist just as well. I still don't know why you brought up the promiscuous, because that lifestyle isn't based on any commitment to a particular relationship and would obviously be antithetical to a marriage. So it boils down to whether marriages that are recognized by society instead of being simple private vows contribute to a society's stability, in which case there's a good reason they should be supported. Societal stability arises from the stability of individual relationships, and they all require some amount of mutual trust and some expectation that society will intervene to punish cheating (that's obviously not just true for marriages or sexual relations in general, but also for business exchanges etc.). The taboo against cheating is much stronger when there's a formal commitment to fidelity that has been made publicly instead of just being a private promise, so it enhances stability. Lastly, I don't see how this view is overly sex-centered - sexuality is an important part of identity, but by no means the only one, and that very general notion of norms governs all of our relationships, in the bedroom, in the office, whatever. I'm also puzzled why supporting gay marriage would require me to be a homosexual who's obsessed with his sexual identity. I'm straight, which is nothing I derive either shame or pride from, and the reason why I support it has much more to do with my identity as a progressive ethical pig. Röstigraben (talk) 10:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Right, because we all know gay relationships are about nothing more than sex, whereas straight relationships are all about bonds and love and children and forever. --Leotardo (talk) 21:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
If two, three or more people of whatever sexes want to call their relationship "marriage" I've got no problem with that. It certainly makes the word "marriage" less meaningful - but so?--BobSpring is sprung! 21:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
How progressive! How ethical! Marry me tonight (just for fun!!) --Idiot number 59 (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you a US citizen? --91.145.88.218 (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I live in North Korea.... but it can't stop True Love!!! Yep, whenever I feel sexual desire or pretend to feel it, it's True Love!!!! --Idiot number 59 (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Bob, it's hard to figure out how you mean allowing marriage for gays makes for certain the word marriage "less meaningful". How does it degrade the word, exactly? --Leotardo (talk) 04:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I chose that word badly as it carries a negative connotation. Nevertheless every time you broaden then meaning of a word you do tend to make it less meaningful. For instance, it is possible to broaden the meaning of the word religion to such an extent that it includes atheism or any other belief you care to mention. However I would have preferred to have written "makes the word "marriage" more inclusive".--BobSpring is sprung! 10:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Give it up bro (or sista), you ain't gonna get nowt but abuse for your very rational sentiments. Marriage is between a man and women, end of debate, job done. Should a homosexual couple be entitled to the same legal status as a married heterosexual couple? Erm, well, no; because there should be no special benefits for married couples either way. However if you present an opinion other than "homosexuality is fucking brilliant and homosexuals should be praised to the skies" you will be irrationally shouted down. DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 23:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The contract of marriage though takes up certain issues that introduce legal responsibilities of government and others to recognize. This is the same thing as with a Power of Attorney. The government, and others need recognize the validity of the contract between the two people for that contract to actually mean anything. As income and property is shared, it makes sense for the federal government to treat the marriage as an individual rather than a group of individuals. We are also likely to admit far more things to our spouses than we would otherwise admit to anyone else, and thus it makes sense to recognize a marriage as a single individual for the purposes of determining self-incrimination. Even if we entirely strip out "marriage" from the legal system, then merely by generation of the contracts that these individuals can and should be able to construct, there enters a question of what and when the government will recognize those contracts. (e.g. An Attorney-in-Fact can file your tax returns, but they cannot represent you in court. If someone sues a marriage, can any party to that marriage represent the communal interests or are they—like corporations—forced to hire an attorney to represent them as they are only a "legal entity"?) --Eira OMTG! The Goat be Praised. 01:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Marriage laws are state issues, not federal. So far, anyway. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:35, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Not all marriage laws are state issues, c.f. Defense of Marriage Act. Although, the US government is oddly willing to defer to state definitions in some cases. The courts have ruled that as long as a marriage involving a transgender spouse is considered heterosexual, the federal government will recognize it as a marriage for immigration purposes. (This means a transman and a man would be recognized in Texas, but not Kansas, and a man and another man would be recognized in Kansas but not Texas.) --Eira OMTG! The Goat be Praised. 05:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
You mean a homosexual marriage involving a transgender spouse (eg transwoman and born woman) is considered a heterosexual marriage between a man and a woman for immigration purposes, but not considered a marriage in any other case? Just clarifying. Chthonios (talk) 05:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I'll try to be more clear. In a few states (notably, Texas and Florida) there have been definitive court ruling declaring void any altered birth certificate for the purposes of marriage. Thus, a person who was declared male at birth, but later transitioned to being female cannot marry a man, but may marry a woman. In other states (notably, Kansas and Ohio) have declared that an altered birth certificate is expressly recognized, and thus a person who was declared male at birth but later transitioned to being female can only marry a man, and cannot marry a woman. So, a marriage between a transwoman and a "cisgender" woman in Texas is recognized as a heterosexual marriage and thus recognized by the federal government, but if that exact same married couple were in New York, then the marriage would not be recognized by the federal government. --Eira OMTG! The Goat be Praised. 06:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to all of the slippery slope CRAP written here: animals cannot consent to contracts, thereby there is no reason why the government should allow a human and an animal to enter into a marriage contract. Also, the animal is incapable of owning property, has no tax liability, or any other such reason that creates a condition whereby the owner need anything other than ownership to achieve the same legal rights and responsibilities that a "marriage" would possibly confer.

Who cares if polygamy, and polyandry is allowed? This honestly shouldn't bother any one. Technically, people "incorporate" all the time, and produce a legal entity that represents the formal interests of many. As long as all parties to an existing marriage consent to be involved in the introduction of a new party to that marriage contract then I cannot rationally claim any error on any part. Is it weird? Maybe, but the law naturally allows for a lot of weird shit to happen.

The whole attempt to sound rational here on the part of anonymous IP is a horrible fail to understand that he is committing a hojillion fallacies a paragraph. --Eira OMTG! The Goat be Praised. 01:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

So do those who fully support homosexual marriage (in whatever form one considers 'marriage' is or should be) de facto support polygamy? Whilst the bestiality arguments are of course absurd, I think that this one is not. </JAQing off> DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 01:22, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I can't really speak for everyone else, who supports homosexual marriage, but the arguments are not necessarily bound together. The argument for homosexual marriage can take the position that only two party marriage contracts should be acceptable, because of mostly arbitrary reasons. As I don't really think there is any merit to objecting to polygamy or polyandry I'm not really the best person to ask to represent their position. But to answer your question broadly, support of homosexual marriage does not necessarily imply support for marriages of more than two people. --Eira OMTG! The Goat be Praised. 01:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Presumably each person will have their own ideas, but the "one man one woman" idea is simply the current social/legal norm. We tend to see everything in respect of that norm which we have grown up with. But I can see no logical reason why we should regard it is the only way to live, and certainly no reason to defend it as the "best".--BobSpring is sprung! 10:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Speaking as someone who has been in polyamorous relationships, I'm actually against the idea of extending the marriage contract past the two-party model. While poly relationships can be very stable, most are not, and adding a legal contract to that would likely make matters worse. I would consider a long-term, stable poly relationship to be uncommon enough as compared to a long-term, stable two-party relationship (without regard for gender) that it would apply as a separate issue. And, unfortunately, one I don't support. --Kels (talk) 16:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Interesting and enlightening perspective. ħumanUser talk:Human 06:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
OK - but the two-party different-sex model has a - what - 50 percent divorce rate? It's clear that the idea of the "permanency" of marriage is also in doubt. And why should we expect people to stay together for life anyway?--BobSpring is sprung! 16:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Then throw various BDSM-based relationships into the mix if you want yet another dimension of complexity that still falls within the informed consent barrier. I did put a WIGO up about someone who was showing how awkward it all is from a database perspective. It may seem nerdy, but it was a fascinating read and a great insight into how to judge such things objectively. If you want to consider alternative sexualities and inclusiveness you're probably on the wrong track; it'd be impossible to please every possible combination and ideal. The headaches really start when you need flexible inclusion of polygamous relationships there. Instead it would be best to redefine the concept in more broad terms; i.e., ones that automatically include everyone without having to specify what is and what is not allowed. The concept still can exist, but is defined by more realistic terms rather than traditional ones; describing what it does and not what tradition dictates it is. So I disagree that marriage must be made meaningless or is necessarily made redundant upon extending it. It is, as outlined above, and incorporation from a legal standpoint; you're extending rights and responsibilities regarding yourself to another person. And importantly, unlike family, it's a person you nominate and choose.It's a remarkably important step in someone's life and would be as powerful and applicable regardless of who it was "opened up to". Scarlet A.pngpathetic 02:44, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the problem boils down to the fact that the thing we call "the institution of marriage" has changed over the years. Let's think "Why marriage?" for a moment. I'll try to do this chronologically.
  • To enforce monogamy on females so as to ensure that a male can be sure that the children he is raising are his. (OK, one could express this in other ways.)
  • Because God, the Bible, the Quran or the religion of your choice mandates and defines marriage. Your religion will not allow you to have sex unless you are married.
  • Because of social pressure or the law of the land.
  • To codify the financial situation of wives and legitimate children.
Clearly not all of these continue to be of prime importance. The question then may become: "What is the main purpose or reason for marriage in a modern society?"--BobSpring is sprung! 11:24, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
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