Talk:Sovereign citizen
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[edit] Two deputies killed in LA
A few days ago a group of sovereign citizens killed two deputies here in LA. Add to article? ТyNot updated with a witty slogan this week 15:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
- Link? SophieWilder 16:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
- Here ya go ТyNot updated with a witty slogan this week 17:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
[edit] What they confuse is common law vs codified law
Common law is always inferior to codified law. THAT is the concept these mental defectives operated under the lack of comprehension of.Wzrd1 (talk) 05:50, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Merge?
It seems to me this page is covering things that the Freeman on the Land covers at greater detail. It would seem to be that it would be prudent to merge FOTL into this, as FOTL is a sub... cult of Sovereign citizens. Anyone agree? --Revolverman (talk) 00:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Seems reasonable to me. The FOTL page is heavily UK-biased but the terminology exists throughout the anglosphere. EVDebs (talk) 01:18, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- Related but a different culture, I think. FotL is not so much into its guns, for example. I wouldn't merge them. I think "See also" will do - David Gerard (talk) 06:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
[edit] On TV
Going along with Mission item #4: Season 3, Episode 7 of The Glades talks about sovereign citizens. It's on Netflix. Anyone have any thoughts? --Seth Peck (talk) 01:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Obviously, this page is the best Sales Pitch for Freeman. You certainly don't address the Person/Human conception that could have give that page a hedge.
But thru the operation of the law, there is no way to permanently 'identify' the Person to the Human.
That's why everyone is asked his name, for the Human to be Identified as the Person and therefore apply 'the statute' to it.
Discuss or let your page be what it is. Pretty much opinion. — Unsigned, by: 74.15.131.101 / talk / contribs
- The comment you added to the article would be suitable for this talk page, not the article itself. - GrantC (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- And yet sovereign arguments are consistently thrown out of court, and no amount of rearranging words to restate the same old arguments ever works. If one was cynical, one might think that the entire sovereign movement is a muddled attempt by some immature, allegedly grown-ass adults to convince themselves that they're somehow special, over and above the 14th amendment's statements. And I'm cynical as all fuck. EVDebs (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I still don't know how anyone believes Governments have crafted their laws in such a way that they have real life cheat codes in them. --Revolverman (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- Revolverman, there are. It's generally called perjury. If someone fails to do discovery, you could lie. However, if you believe what you're saying, it's not perjury. But then you could be thrown in contempt of court. You could argue you hold no contempt. If you're asked, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," just imagine that you answer, "Yes," to the judge's first question and then everything else is, "I don't know what you're talking about." You might want to keep Agrippa's trilemma in your back pocket as evidence. Maybe something from Plato... If someone fails to do discovery, how can the plaintiff or the defendant differentiate between fact and fiction? With no discovery, even a person who believes he or she is telling the truth has no evidence to support that he or she is telling the truth. As such, with no discovery, you may as well say that you do not know anything, because you cannot legally prove anything to yourself to be true. Get it? Due to the card-stacked nature of legal argumentation, you'll want to present evidence that proves that you don't know anything as the first thing; but proving ignorance of the law is not applicable. Ignorance of the law is applicable is certain conditions where social isolation can be proven. The judge could call on the baliff as witness that ignorance is no excuse for the law, so arguing against the judge may not work so well on the "I'm ignorant of the law, too" aspect. If prosecuted for a crime in a Defendant vs. People of State kind of case, move to a different state and push forward the ignorance argument again. Move to a different state each time when you want to restart foundational arguments. --98.213.193.92 (talk) 19:15, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
- When you've spent your entire life being taught that quote mining is a legitimate way to understand the Bible, this makes perfect sense. EVDebs (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I still don't know how anyone believes Governments have crafted their laws in such a way that they have real life cheat codes in them. --Revolverman (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Office of the Person essay
I read an article today, which I'll list at the end of this passage, that talks about sovereign citizenship. I think the wiki article does a half-decent job going into the ideaology of what it's about, but the page I read goes more into things like, "Never sign a government document or become part of a government institution, and then you can be your own King/Queen." It's basically a self-ownership philosophy. I don't believe it necessarily implies anarchism. Also, I think the reason that the sovereign citizen individuals cite the constitution and other documents is to prove a foundation for their arguments and immunity. This wiki goes out of the way to make arguments based on socio-economic status (people being white hicks) and so forth, which becomes really irrelevant to the legal topic at hand. What I'm more interested in is whether or not the U.S. Government actually respects people who correctly do the sovereign citizen thing (not becoming part of the government in any legal way). This article discusses people receiving benefits from the government, which nullifies sovereign citizenship. It would be better said that there are people who are making inaccurate arguments. I'm wondering if there is any validity to the sovereign immunity thing. It appears that it does exist for some people, although an extremely small number of individuals: http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/officeoftheperson.html— Unsigned, by: 98.213.193.92 / talk / contribs 19:05, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
- The article has had this (as of the past few minutes): "...many sovereign citizens still receive and redeem government checks as well as other forms of federal financial aid..." For what I understand, that statement is contradicting to qualifying conditions for a man or woman to have sovereign immunity. I see the logic to the sovereign citizen argument. I come from an anarcho-communist background. Allegedly, there are conditions for which an individual would be sovereign from the government. This reminds me of tribal sovereignity (Native Americans). The Amish also have their own protections. The logic seems to be there, so I don't know what about past legal cases with the sovereign immunity argument made them invalid: Perhaps the conditions for such an argument were not evidentially there? Nothing I've read so far has talked about why individuals wouldn't be able to have this sovereign citizenship.— Unsigned, by: 98.213.193.92 / talk / contribs 20:07, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
- I looked into this even further. Wow, I'm surprised at this wiki page and Wikipedia. It looks like the sovereign citizen thing was more relevant in the United States when the draft was around. For what I understand, sovereign citizenship enables a person to avoid the draft, especially selective service in the U.S.A.. I am now under the strong belief there is statism bias in the rationalwiki article.— Unsigned, by: 98.213.193.92 / talk / contribs 20:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] The text that a BoN just removed...
...was added by another BoN in 2013: [1] I suggest it remains removed.--ZooGuard (talk) 07:10, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- ah, OK - David Gerard (talk) 10:57, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Found a cite in about two minutes from a critic, looking for primary sources - David Gerard (talk) 11:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- There's lots of wackiness around the 13th Amendment: [2] - David Gerard (talk) 11:11, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] the big time?
A few sovereign citizens have killed a tiny handful of cops, so now cops believe the sovereign citizens to be the biggest terrorist threat in the U.S. Do we really need to endorse their view in our article? If I were a psychiatrist and a few Scientologists killed a tiny handful of psychiatrists, I might consider Scientologists to be the biggest terrorist threat in the U.S. That wouldn't make it true. Rand0 (talk) 14:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Another one
Child rapist tries "sovereign citizen" defence (unsurprisingly, without any success). Someone perhaps should check if he had been into sovereign crap before the trial.--ZooGuard (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
[edit] extreme bias
I do not know much about this group, just came here to see if I could figure out what paperwork I saw a guy on youtube use to avoid having to show insurance or license but this looks very biased. The whole article reads like something off Encyclopedia dramatica. — Unsigned, by: 173.197.151.8 / talk 11:16, 14 April 2015
- You opinion has been duly noted (and disregarded), BoN. Comments should be signed and new sections go at the bottom of the page, btw. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:26, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
- Really? I'm not seeing any porn ads on the side or obscene pictures in the article, though. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 11:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)