Talk:Trans-exclusionary radical feminism

From RationalWiki
(Redirected from Talk:TERF)
Jump to: navigation, search

This page is automatically archived by Pibot
Archives for this talk page: <1>

Contents

[edit] TERF edits highlight the need for more debunking

As those following this article or who have reviewed the fossil record (I'm in the latter category.) would know, a TERF calling themselves Lania Flint made massive edits to the article to reverse its stance without consulting the community. These edits were reversed in short order, but they raised specious points which, in my honest opinion, haven't been sufficiently refuted on this wiki. Femilisk expresses the opinion that the main crux of TERF arguments, that chromosomes and genitals are immutable and essentially destiny, is something "we debunk to a great extent in various places" on the wiki, but the articles she cites only seem to scratch the surface. For example, Lania Flint cites TERF arguments contesting the mutability of sex in this way or that. While these have been debunked elsewhere, I have yet to see a head-on refutation of these arguments anywhere on RationalWiki. We could start with the fact that, despite claims that transgender folk are denying biology, biologists recognize three definitions of biological sex: genetic sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex. Two of these are demonstrably mutable with current or near-future tech (gonadal and phenotypic), and the one that isn't mutable with current tech (genetic) matters the least to biologists in determining the sex of a mammal. Additionally, if there has been any conclusive research demonstrating the mutability of sexual dimorphism in non-human animals (another favorite of TERFs who pretend to be bio-literate, including Lania Flint), let's find it and cite it. It shouldn't be hard to find data on the psychology of gender identity, either (though this is admittedly one area the existing articles cover better than others). It may seem unnecessary and redundant to some more seasoned users to explain the scientific consensus on trans* issues in depth, but it appears to be lost on many, and the uninitiated may find it useful. TERFs and other transphobes are as anti-science as any creationist or anti-vaxxer, but their arguments appear to make sense facially to more people due to already poor public bio-literacy. I'd like to see a more advanced, definitive takedown of ALL their bullshit, debunking the "TERF argument cluster" with a similar degree of thoroughness with which we debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories. I may contribute heavily to this in the future when I'm not on a phone, though I plan to gain more input from the folks who originally introduced me to this information. The One They Call Mars (talk) 01:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, you have significant knowledge, so in my mind, it's worth taking the lead on. Neither good/bad, right/wrong, most of us have little to no real knowledge or understanding of such complex issues. I could write something that might work for a freshman highschool course, but you are really sayign, "let's go deeper". and i don't think anyone disagrees with that, I just think we are largely wading in lakes where we cant see the bottom, where for those who more deeply understand this stuff it's just a little pond. Alternatively, if you have quality links, I personally would summarize them into this article... if that's an option for you.One tin soldier (talk) 14:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I suppose this is a call for me... I really have a lot of experience and study in the area of human sexual dimorphism, and biological development of sexual characteristics... what is known is that all laboratory test animals are sexual dimorphic in their brains, and as such can have differing development of their brain dimorphism from their body's dimorphism. So, I understand exactly how worthless "biological sex" is short of describing someone who generates eggs and sperm, which only ever matters for one and only one process: sexual reproduction, which is a distinct purpose apart from sexual intercourse. So, I'll read through the full comment here, and give this article some love, and scientific knowledge and details, and will basically explain the entirety of sexual and gender development.
As a final note, I must note that trans* does not necessarily mean "mutable sexual characteristics"... David Reimer kind of expresses the entire notion that gender identity association is more or less fixed by sexual dimorphism in the brain. But once you admit that something is sexually dimorphic, you have to accept that it can be "out of concert" with the rest of the body. Also, gender identity is more about "women and girls like this and so I want to like this." vs. "men and boys like this and so I want to like this." Seriously, that's most of what gender identity comes down to... --Eira OMTG! The Goat be Praised. 16:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll possibly indulge in my TERF obsession and do the article. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦ Red rose 02.svg It's dangerous to go alone! Take this. 18:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
@One tin soldier: Well, my knowledge on this matter is largely secondhand, so I don't want to take full credit for introducing it here. The reason I think we need to go deeper is that existing transphobic propaganda and talking points have already gone deeper than RationalWiki's debunking material currently addresses. I'm presently trying to contact the person from whom I learned the more "advanced" facts, so I'll have a better idea of how to proceed after (if) I hear back from her.
@Eira: You know, I didn't even take brain dimorphism into account, as I was focusing primarily on the physiological sort. You illustrated the point quite well, however, when you explained that "...once you admit that something is sexually dimorphic, you have to accept that it can be 'out of concert' with the rest of the body." As for gender identity, I'm more concerned with the intrinsic aspect than the constructed roles. The dimorphic aspect of gender identity is part of what made John Money's little experiment unethical (aside from the obvious fact that Reimer was reassigned without his consent). On another note, I'm not sure if we should place the bulk of debunking in this article or in the transphobia article (or also spread snippets of information throughout our trans* issues article cluster). The One They Call Mars (talk) 05:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Counterexample re genes determining sex : J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.
ZoeBrain (talk) 12:12, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Counterexample re immutable genes : Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8 ZoeBrain (talk) 12:12, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

On the topic of medical research showing transgender individuals having differences within the brain, can someone explain to me how a brain state correlates to social constructions of "man" or "woman"? I don't understand how the statement that "transgender individuals have different brains structures" implies that they are neurologically men or women or shows how gender is intrinsic in any way. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that a persons biology may affect how closely they relate to artificially constructed conceptions of gender? Baba Yaga (talk) 00:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC) Baba Yaga

See Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?” M.Diamond Sex Roles (2006) 55:589–600
A theory of gender development is presented that incorporates early biological factors that organize predispositions in temperament and attitudes. With activation of these factors a person interacts in society and comes to identify as male or female. The predispositions establish preferences and aversions the growing child compares with those of others. All individuals compare themselves with others deciding who they are like (same) and with whom are they different. These experiences and interpretations can then be said to determine how one comes to identify as male or female, man or woman. In retrospect, one can say the person has a gendered brain since it is the brain that structures the individual’s basic personality; first with inherent tendencies then with interactions coming from experience.
ZoeBrain (talk) 12:12, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] TERFs and Wingnuts section

I hope I'm not going to get everyone drunk, but isn't this just a death by association argument? If so, I thought we were better than that. Also, and , I think, dearer to my heart, I would like to pedantically point out that the rhetoric isn't all that "exactly the same" as the passage in the footnote (31). We could probably get away with calling it similar. Furthermore, rhetoric is nothing more than a tool, or collection of tools. When I see that statement I see "terfs use the same kinds of hammers as Wingnuts" which doesn't mean a whole lot. We'd be a lot better off showing ideological similarities than rhetorical ones; though we could also try to show a connection between the rhetorics and ideologies of terfs and these other weirdos, I would guess that such a thing is beyond the scope of the article. I would edit it myself, but I cut my teeth on the 2nd wave and am not sure I'd match the tone and purpose of the article. Also, I know nothing about the terfs, aside from what I've read here, so sll I could do is subtract without adding, which I don't think would be useful.Dowdicus (talk) 12:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The article does demonstrate ideological similarities. Indeed the phrase "trans-exclusionary" highlights the essential characteristic of their ideology, which is shared by the American right (do I need a citation for that?) 76.4.254.80 (talk) 09:48, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
First off, I think your second sentence might ought to be in the article somewhere, possibly--maybe as a quote, maybe in the intro or as a lead-in to an explanation of their "feminism," or in the section comparing them to the American right. On to my thing: Maybe I would feel better if we said something about how "their ideologies intersect at certain points (repressive sexual views, etc), as is evidenced by their rhetoric" rather than simply saying that they use the same rhetoric (same hammers)--but, then again, I don't know if that would fit the quoted passage. As an example of why I think that such a thing is problematic, MRAs try very hard to use the same rhetoric as feminists--they just don't understand it or its foundations--but surely this doesn't mean the MRAs are really the same as feminists. Likewise, TERFs really do use the exact same rhetoric as mainstream feminists (and, I assume, they understand it), but that doesn't further any arguments about where they stand in relation to mainstream feminists. Saying that two different speakers use the same rhetoric is just an empty rhetorical trick. If we do want to compare rhetoric, it might be a good idea to explain their dogwhistles and the problems with their ethos appeals (I think, without going back and looking, we mention appeals to discredited research, for instance--a rhetorical strategy used by each group), and compare those to the same on the right.
If we just throw out a quote and say the rhetoric is the same without explaining how or why or what the problem is with that then we're making the reader do all the work. For instance, the rhetoric of both passages refers to either "developing a critical awareness" or "coming to know God." In each instance, the writer is attempting to position his/her argument primarily as being concerned for the well-being of the subject, rather than defending against a perceived threat to his or her ideology (as well as appealing to different audiences, of course). This might be obvious to someone who spends a lot of time studying the TERFs, but a "layperson" might be tempted to take their concern at face-value, especially in the context of an article on Rationalwiki, which is fairly honest and upfront about its biases. I don't mind unpacking the rhetoric myself (though I'm not sure when), as it's probably a bit tedious, if we think such a thing would be beneficial to the article at all. I'll point out that we do take some time to unpack the first quote in this section, explaining the "transgender as choice" wording (do they ever use phrases like "transgender lifestyle?"). Dowdicus (talk) 11:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
"rhetoric is the same" is a less strong statement than "worked with them directly", which is a thing that happened. However, the latter strongly supports the former - David Gerard (talk) 12:12, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I suppose I'm just saying that I think it's better to focus on the thing itself (their arguments/ideology) rather than the way it's packaged (their rhetoric), but if we are interested in critiquing the packaging we should do so properly, rather than relying on the negative connotations people tend to associate with the word "rhetoric" to score points for us, which seems to be the purpose of the last sentence in the section. Certain Rhetorical similarities (similar dog whistles, symbolic language, etc.) are, indeed, good indications of ideological similarities, especially if one subscribes to Mikhail Bakhtin's views, but, as I said, if we're going to compare/critique their rhetoric, we should actually do so, rather than leaving it up to the reader. If we are concerned with the rhetorical similarities of the two passages we should take the trouble to unpack the rhetoric and actually make a comparison, like we do for the first quote.Dowdicus (talk) 20:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Get editing then ;-) I do concur it's not presently as strong a section as it should be. This article is becoming a go-to for people to explain TERFs to other people, so polishing and strengthening is worth the effort - David Gerard (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I think the problem is that the person who wrote that probably used "rhetoric" in a different way than the way you are reading it. And I'll limit my participation in the discussion to that.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
That's likely true--I'm a comp/rhetoric major, so I probably sound insane to people who are not. I will try and make the time to get on it, but the semester just started and I'm up to my ears in procrastination already. I will do some work here at the site once I get a handle on things.Dowdicus (talk) 21:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Useful for debunking practice

http://retzielcrimson.wordpress.com/ - David Gerard (talk) 09:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

What is meant by this, exactly? Retzielc (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
There you go, dear AFTAs: http://retzielcrimson.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/rational-wiki-on-radical-feminism/ My humble response to the nonsense you call a wiki article. Retzielc (talk) 09:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Wait, am I reading you incorrectly, or you just endorsed NARTH?--ZooGuard (talk) 15:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think so, Retzielc makes a pretty weak argument concerning the differences between Janice Raymond and NARTH, but only seems to endorse the former --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 16:15, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
No, Zooguard, and I honestly have no idea how you got that from the article. It either shows disturbing level of reading comprehension problems or you're deliberately misreading what I'm arguing. Retzielc (talk) 09:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
The article reads:
Also? No conclusive evidence that homosexuality is innate. Like all human behaviour, sexuality is fluid, and can be changed, by will/choice. In fact NARTH and other SOCE practitioners believe homosexuality is a mental illness, and believe reparative therapy will allow these people to become ‘normal’ members of society. Homosexuality is not viewed by them as a choice, freely made, but a mental illness that can only be changed through exertion and external effort to ‘correct’ wrong behaviour induced by past events (absentee father/mother, childhood abuse, etc.)
In other words, Reparative Therapy. As opposed to
Raymond is advocating better treatment to people struggling with dysphoria, rather than presenting them with hoops/pushing them through path towards surgery. She’s advocating better psychological practices to enable men/women with dysphoria to look at the heart of why they feel psychological distress from otherwise healthy organs, rather than having one option, that of ‘transition’.
In other words, Reparative Therapy. One could just as well have written:
Transsexuality is not viewed by her as a choice, freely made, but a mental illness that can only be changed through exertion and external effort to ‘correct’ wrong behaviour induced by past events (absentee father/mother, childhood abuse, etc.)
and
They're advocating better psychological practices to enable men/women with same-sex attraction to look at the heart of why they feel attracted to the same sex, rather than having one option, that of ‘living a homosexual lifestyle'.
Still, what really matters is this - not who says it, but does it work? Reparative Therapy of either kind doesn't work, damages patients, and is no longer regarded as ethical.
Treatment aimed at trying to change a person’s gender identity and expression to become more congruent with sex assigned at birth has been attempted in the past without success (Gelder & Marks, 1969; Greenson, 1964), particularly in the long term (Cohen-Kettenis & Kuiper, 1984; Pauly, 1965). Such treatment is no longer considered ethical.
- Standards of Care v7 2011

The essentially religious (though non-Christian) basis of Raymond's belief, and consequent animus towards Trans people, is illustrated by her own words:

The transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist feeds off woman’s true energy source, i.e. her woman-identified self. It is he who recognises that if female spirit, mind, creativity and sexuality exist anywhere in a powerful way it is here, among lesbian-feminists
Source : The Transsexual Empire


203.129.56.166 (talk) 14:03, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
As an observation - One critique of Retziel is IMHO accurate. The tone of the article is that of a polemic, not a reasoned argument. More light, less heat would be better I feel. The natural distaste for TERF methods on the part of just about everyone else should not be an excuse, as polemic diminishes credibility. It's not as if there isn't a mountain of objective evidence proving they're full of it. Use facts, not rhetoric. 203.129.56.166 (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] TERF, puberty blockers, and fertility

Some TERFs will complain that putting children who are trans on puberty blockers will stop fertility. In addition to being bullshit (http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=protocol-youth), it stresses the importance of fertility or having children (not unlike social conseratives do when arguing against marriage equality). Should be added to a list of debunking points because it's an insidious argument and very very terrible. Sig can you say.png Sig gulag time.png 11:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, we need a cited list of the PRATTs. Anyone got enough vodka to fortify the brain against such a list? - David Gerard (talk) 11:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Lists of shitty talking points for SBSing: Start! [1] - David Gerard (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Biased and incomplete polemic about "SWERFs"

The term SWERF is not properly defined in its section. Despite this lack of conceptual clarity, the section goes on to pour great negative judgment upon this fuzzily delineated group of designated enemies. The section is highly biased towards one particular point of view while representing the opposing arguments and positions in a comically absurd and misleading manner that goes far beyond satire straight into straw man territory. Since I do not want to initiate an edit war, I've come here to voice my frustration with this poorly thought out opinion piece which presents itself as the definitive voice of... something (supposedly feminism I guess). The section would benefit from balance and from acknowledging that opposition to prostitution has been and continues to be a major position of mainstream feminists and important feminist thinkers. Additionally, for the term itself to be anything but a laughably transparent thought-control slur, some sort of reasoned justification is needed - one that doesn't rely on neoliberal buzzwords and platitudes (voluntary, agency, choose, free etc.) TheBullet (talk) 18:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Please suggest alternating wording here, that we can discuss. SophieWilderModerator 18:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Bullet is right; that section is lousy. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:31, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with the term to begin with so I'm not sure these conflicting positions can be merged into a coherent text. In my experience the term is used as a label for feminists who see prostitution/pornography critically, oppose its full legalization or want to minimize/abolish it. It appears to be inherently misleading since it talks about "exclusion of sex workers" where there is none. TERFs literally exclude trans women from the group of women conceptually, spatially and verbally. "SWERF" draws a parallel to that, but nobody is excluding sex workers from anything, and the term isn't being used in that manner either. So whoever wants to legitimize this dubious SWERF label and its associated section would have to establish who is actually excluding sex workers from what, or why it is justified to invoke a connection to TERFs when one can simply say "anti-prostitution" and address that topic on its own page. TheBullet (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree it needs its own page separate from this one. SophieWilderModerator 20:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
The groups do cross over quite a bit. But yeah, separate page would be relevant. It's about people who claim it's opposition to prostitution, but consistently do things that target the sex workers themselves and make their lives worse - David Gerard (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
"SWERF is a SLUR! we prefer to be called sex critical social conservative reactionaries!" Sig can you say.png Sig gulag time.png 15:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Very poor article and source quality

I haven't gone through every link to check it's quality, but there are a number of "sources" that are merely assertions, with no backing.

Specific examples include:

35. TERF debaters yield to no one, not even FEMA conspiracy fans, in coming up with creative ways to rephrase "You'll be sorry!"

Note how this is just an assertion, without even the slightest bit of evidence. Not even anecdotal evidence, or made up random stuff.

20. Trans criticism is not transphobia... oh, wait, no! It bloody is!

The article it links to seems relatively reasonable as far as random blog posts go, and the "oh, wait, no!" is just tacked on after the link with no support.

15. You may call me a TERF but I am not transphobic... No, we will call you a TERF exactly because you are transphobic!

This article, again seems relatively reasonable, and yet just has an assertion of transphobia thrown in after the link with no actual evidence or explanation.

Ref 3 has a bunch of assertions, but the worst one is this:

The linked article doesn't actually say anything about forcing intersex folks to choose any gender identity at all.

The relevant quote from the article is:

If an intersex person decides to present as either biologically female or biologically male (even though they are really biologically intersex), they are still not “trans”. They are intersex. Ideally, the intersex person should be allowed to make that decision for themselves, not have it forced on them by their parents, their doctors or by a sexist society. If they want to live openly as an intersex person, that is their right and it should be respected by others.

Note the complete lack of forcing intersex people to do anything.

That ref also says

Approximately 0% of chromosome obsessives have actually had their own karyotype tested.

Even though the article only mentions chromosomes in passing, as an attempt to clarify that they are talking about biological sex (an imperfect measure, sure, but so is pretty much everything).

Many of the other "sources" are probably similar, but I didn't feel like checking every single one of them.

Another note, the article itself is kind of crap, with bits like:

This links to the "Conspiracy Theory" page; which is, as you probably guessed, not actually evidence that anyone believes what the sentence asserts.

Now, there did seem to be a few actual links to posts by "TERFs" that seemed to actually support the article's distaste, but this is the internet, we can't necessarily assume that everyone called a "TERF" shares those views, just as not all atheists agree on everything, or not all <insert religion here> people agree with each other. So, while discussion of the issue is good and all, the hatred heaped upon people the article disagrees with is massively excessive. — Unsigned, by: 167.219.0.140 / talk / contribs

Some of these are problems and some of this is totally reasonable snark. For example, to think that transwomen go through what they do just to get into women-only places is absolutely crazy, and ascribes to collective and organized malice, what can be explained a thousand other ways. That's quality is exactly what makes conspiracy theories conspiracy theories. I don't know if I can muster the organizational fortitude to deal with all of your complaints at once.
But I'd like to help. What do you think is the biggest problem, of those you listed? We can talk that out first. Ikanreed (talk) 16:28, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not so much any one particular example that's the problem. It seems that most of the article is, at best, based on a misunderstanding the beliefs of "TERFs" (and ridiculing them based on that misunderstanding); or at worst, uncritically believing the things that some people say about "TERFs" without actually checking for themselves.
I suppose that if I had to start somewhere, I'd start with ref#3, which is blatantly false, when it's not being simply completely unsubstantiated. The ref says that "TERFs" want ("force" is the word the ref uses) intersexed folks to specifically pick to be male or female, but the article it links to *very specifically* says that intersexed people can present however they want.
I understand that anything related to trans* is going to be controversial, but I'm not quite sure how the generally expressed "TERF" belief of
Trans* is problematic because it generally relies on gender being some real thing that exists and isn't a social construct.
manages to get interpreted by so many people as
ZOMG! Trans* folks are all evil spawn of satan!
Granted, many of the things I've seen written by "TERFs" are, perhaps, more acerbic than is strictly necessary, but that's fairly understandable given how dismissive and angry many people get about anything they say. (And that, when framed certain ways, some trans* activists' statements *do* tend to resemble more of bio males forcing *their* definitions and language on bio females.)
Also, I apologize about the relatively poor wording of the last part there. It's almost time for me to leave, and I wanted to get this posted before I forget. Hopefully I was able to at least get enough of my point across to make sense. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 20:47, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Corporate censorship presently keeps me from checking the ref's content. Anyone else want to help here? Ikanreed (talk) 21:00, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
It's available on archive.org, if that's not blocked. I've also copied it to pastebin [here http://pastebin.com/znz9dEXX] if archive.org is blocked, or if you prefer text only. (I've put urls in parentheses next to the link text. Note, the "Reblogged from here" link is dead, but I've included for completeness. Note to visitors from the future: the paste expires after a month, because I don't really see a reason to make pastebin keep it forever.)
The reason people interpret these statements that way is that these statements are given by TERFs as their justifications for behaving that way. I find myself stupendously unconvinced by innocent interpretations of their words given their observed behaviours - David Gerard (talk) 10:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
And these behaviors are happening where? If "TERFs" as a group are behaving in transphobic ways, then the page should contain *that* information (with sources, of course), rather than being mostly full of unfounded assertions and blatant falsehoods. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 13:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Cathy Brennan herself actually tried to smear and 'out' a trans* friend of mine. The article might be light on examples, but it's wilful ignorance (or deliberate deceit) to claim that it's 'blatant falsehoods'. I don't even follow TERFs particularly but their own actions condemn them just as strongly as the tone of the article does. Queexchthonic murmurings 14:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, what part of "ref 3 claims the *exact opposite thing* the linked page does" means it's not a blatant falsehood?
Even if Brennan was the reincarnation of Hitler *and* Satan, that wouldn't excuse such massive misrepresentation of her posts. If she's that bad, the facts will speak for themselves. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 19:52, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
The linked post could well have been edited since the ref was inserted. The ref's a bit poor anyway, as what we really need is a reference for the first part of the footnote rather than the second, so that needs work. In any case, one dodgy ref does not an article full of blatant falsehoods make. The facts do speak for themselves, I just don't particularly want to dedicate the needed time to wade through the sewerage to document it. In the linked article she flat out calls transgenderism a sexual fetish, which is deep into Not even wrong territory. This link is probably one good place to start the trail if you want evidence of poor character: http://www.transadvocate.com/?s=brennan. Queexchthonic murmurings 13:19, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not just "one dodgy ref", it's most of the refs being dodgy, and most of the article being dodgy. That one was just one example of absolute, undeniable, wrongness. Read my first post for more examples. I can go into even more depth on critiquing the article if anyone still thinks it's anywhere near decent quality.
Additionally, I skimmed the first few pages of "Brennan" articles on the site you linked, but most of them seemed to be just random hate spewing. I mean, one of them was just whining that Brennan asked an article to be edited so that it didn't insinuate that she was connected with groups she wasn't connected with. Okay, she used the word "lawyer" while sending the request, big deal. Another was just whining that Brennan didn't classify as a hate group. Seriously? Aren't we all supposed to be reasonable adults here? This is the best stuff that people can come up with against her?
From this and other reading I've done, people's main problem with her seems to be that she calls people "women" who were born with a vagina and raised female, and she calls people "men" who were born with a penis and raised male. These are hardly the hate crimes that people seem to be insisting. Okay, so she doesn't think that "feeling like a woman" means that someone actually has any of the experience and socially instilled behaviors that people raised female do, so what? We've got much bigger issues that need to be dealt with, this is ridiculous. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 14:57, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
My main problem is that she personally harasses trans* people. Are you okay with her doing that? Queexchthonic murmurings 12:42, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
That depends entirely on what the "harassment" actually is. But, assuming standard definitions, then no, I don't support that. Of course, that has nothing to do with the article quality, so I'm not sure why we're talking about it. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 13:26, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Your complaint is that it's inaccurate with respect to Cathy Brennan, and that she's not transphobic, and are 'problems' with her are petty and not proper objections. She is transphobic. Our 'problems' with her are legitimate. Whence your complaints, then? Queexchthonic murmurings 14:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
What? You did read my original post right? There are a ton of places where the article is either flat out wrong, or makes pretty bold claims that are not backed up by *any* sources. And that's not even getting into how the poor tone just exacerbates those issues, by making them look like hate induced ramblings instead of anything resembling rational objections.
As for the ref 3 example of an indisputably wrong claim made by the article, all I've gotten in reply is that either "well, her page might have been edited afterward" or "that's not really the real problem".
As for the dislike of Ms. Brennan specifically, all I've gotten in response there is some variations on "She harassed someone I know, and I will now proceed to give you absolutely no evidence what so ever that this happened". And, of course, a blog that mostly seemed to complain that Ms. Brennan didn't qualify as a hate group, and that she dared to ask someone to not insinuate she was connected to a group that she wasn't connected to (along with various things that seemed tangentially related, at best).
And somehow, despite all this, *I'm* the one who doesn't have any legitimate complaints? Are you kidding me?
What about literally everything else I mentioned in my first post? Do those problems not exist? Am I somehow viewing a different version of the article than everyone else? Is there a reality distortion field around Brennan that causes people to forget everything else after thinking about her? What's going on here? 167.219.0.140 (talk) 20:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I wanted to help, but I couldn't actually check ref 3, as it's inaccessible to me. Could you suggest a rewrite of particular sentences? That might help get the discussion back on track, at least. Ikanreed (talk) 20:06, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not really sure that sentence rewrites would help much (as opposed to a complete rewrite of the entire article), but I suppose I'll start with a draft of a new first paragraph. Probably something like:
Trans-exclusionary radical feminism (or TERF) is a subgroup of radical feminism characterized by the rejection of gender roles, and also of gender in it's entirety. Thus, they also reject transgender as a concept. TERFs believe that the trans* movement negatively impacts feminism by obfuscating the meaning of "woman", and shifting the focus away from women's liberation; often derailing discussions into lots of (in their view) men continuing to dictate the behaviors of women (since trans* women are usually born and raised as males, TERFs tend to view their expressed gender identities as irrelevant).
It's not great, and I'm not a huge fan of the term "TERF" either, but I think it's a decent starting place. Note that I'm not sure if the "*" after "trans" is still considered standard/proper or not, so that can be taken of left as needed. Of course, sources should probably be added, and I could probably go find some over the weekend without too much difficulty. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I think "yeah, no". For people who claim gender doesn't exist they observably bang on about it considerably. So let's assume the article is about their observed odious behaviour and batshittery rather than the brochure version - David Gerard (talk) 00:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
What. You realize that's the exact same thing that a lot of people say about atheists right? When did that argument suddenly gain validity? 167.219.0.140 (talk) 13:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Ah, but the difference between God and gender is that gender only requires people to identify with it for it to 'exist'. Whether people who identify as different genders are truly different in essence is besides the case; essentialism is unfalsifiable either way. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:36, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Many people also say that belief in god makes him/her/it real. Additionally, like god, many people absolutely insist that everyone believe in gender and accept their particular definition of gender as the one true definition, and start witch hunts when someone disagrees with them.
We're starting to stretch the metaphor a bit now though. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 13:55, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
No, I'm pretty sure those are very different things. Believing in a set of behaviors and purposefully following them does indeed make those behaviors real. I don't think anyone would doubt that there's a concept of "sin" that shapes the behavior of human beings, e.g.. Ikanreed (talk) 14:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Do people really say that? Either way, the fact that people identify according to gender isn't in dispute. What's in dispute is what properties one requires to legitimately identify as a certain gender. According to the passage you wrote earlier, TERFs reject gender roles and the concept of gender altogether. But they don't reject people's sex as a property for categorizing people. In actuality, this means that they don't reject the concept of gender, but all concepts of gender that aren't synonymous with the concept of biological sex. Many transgender people would agree with TERFs about gender roles not being a legitimate factor for identifying people's gender. They take it one step further, in fact, and say that there are no legitimate external factors for identifying people's gender, which is why many trans people insist on the "assigned male/female at birth" terminology. What's left after you eliminate all external factors? The one internal factor; what gender people self-identify as. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 15:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I want to emphasize that none of this has much to do with facts, so much as an authoritarian "You must act this way because this is how I perceive things to be" attitude. That's never going to be compatible with a complicated world where things aren't always simple, and what the facts do establish, at the very least, is that these things aren't simple. Ikanreed (talk) 15:12, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @141.134... There is a big difference between accepting that people can be categorized by physical characteristics, and believing in a concept of "gender". If the categorization were based on hair colour, for example, no one would say that such a classification was equivalent to accepting gender as real.-

-The fact that so many people equate the two is, I think, more an issue of how ingrained the "sexes have certain innate behaviours" thing is in the general culture. The trans* movement seems to have mostly resulted in people discarding the physical characteristics part, and accepting the, now detached, sets of arbitrary behaviours that people try to fit themselves in (somewhat expanded behaviour sets, yes, but still arbitrary sets of behaviour). "TERFs" seem to be more interested in discarding the behaviours, and working on removing the prejudice against women (i.e. people born with vaginas) in most cultures.-

-One noteworthy example is, I believe, the issue of lesbians. From the trans* view, women who insist their partners should be only those born with a vagina are being discriminatory. From the radical feminist point of view, this generally manifests as people saying that women (lesbians, in this example) need to be willing to have sex with men (i.e. people born with penises). And, taking a step back, it is somewhat disturbing that many people are attempting to tell other people who they should or shouldn't have sex with at all. I don't believe that dictating the sexual behaviours of others is what those in the trans* movement are intending, but that is one of the the *results* of their actions in this case.-

-This seems to be a common thread in disagreements between the respective groups. With trans* activists advocating for less discrimination, and with radical feminists advocating for not pressuring/shaming women (i.e. those born with vaginas) into doing things they don't want to.-

-Also, my apologies about the crappiness of the paragraph breaks. Apparently wiki formatting doesn't expect talk pages to need paragraphs. 167.219.0.140 (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

You appear to be blatantly assuming your conclusion there - David Gerard (talk) 19:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, we have at least one thing in common then. Would you care to point out where any specific flaws are, and what those issues are exactly; or shall we just devolve further into ignoring opposing viewpoints instead of attempting to have an actual discussion? 167.219.0.140 (talk) 13:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Personal tools
Namespaces

Variants
Actions
Navigation
Community
Tools
support