2015 Fundraiser

Help us beat last year's record of $7100!

Awesome! We are half way to our goal!
Goal: $7,200 Donations so far: $6687.20
Free speech isn't free. Fighting pseudoscience isn't free.
We are 100% user-supported! Help and donate today!

Talk:Anti-vaccination movement

From RationalWiki
(Redirected from Talk:Vaccine denialism)
Jump to: navigation, search
Information icon.svg Cover Story
This article is, among others, randomly included on the Main Page.
Please keep this in mind and be sure that your edits are of the quality that this implies.
Its front-page abstract can be found here.
Icon pseudoscience green.svg

This denialism related article has been awarded GOLD status for quality. Please keep this in mind when editing the article.

This article is of HIGH importance to the wiki.

See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.


This page is automatically archived by Pibot
Archives for this talk page: <1>, <2>


[edit] Kenya tetanus

Seems a case being raised not of anti-vaccination becasue the particular vaccine does not work or is harmful per se, but substitution for something else. Should it be mentioned? unsigned|

[edit] Family (genetic) vulnerability

There does seem to be one rational reason for an anti-vaccination stance. That is with a very rare adverse reaction to a vaccine or particular ingredient in a formulation. If I had that then it may be a bad idea for me to again take that formulation (for example last year I took the flu vaccine, this year taking the flu vaccine which would have a different anti-viral properties, but the same delivery mixture) . It may also be a bad idea for my genetically identical twin brother to take it. etc. How much is the risk in those cases for siblings or parent child negative reactions? Here some maths on the genetics can be useful. I have seen a case of one person who did not want any injections as a result of such a negative reaction, and there has been the pulling of medicince in the UK due to poor control in one pharma generic supplier to the National Health Service. In these very specific circumstances avoiding vaccines could be a wise strategy for some individuals. For the herd immunity and mass avoidance the first case NO (only that individual just as with peanut allergy), the second case YES (badly prepared medicince will affect a lot of people). Proper drug formulation and production procedures are not a common problem in Western modern medicine, but historically and in less well developed overseen pharma countries they may be. — Unsigned, by: / talk / contribs

People who would react adversely to one or multiple vaccines should definitely avoid them. Such people do exist. This is something that the pro-vaccination stance does not deny. Frederick♠♣♥♦ 20:55, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
In fact, they're one of the biggest concerns. "Look at these douchebags choosing to spread disease to people who have no choice" Ikanreed (talk) 20:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes my post was not to say that they do not exist, but to contextualise the risk to those people and how vaccination policy is not a fascist policy of forcing everyone to take vaccines EVEN WHEN THEY ARE NOT GOOD in your particular case QED.

[edit] Scandinavian Narcolepsy cases

I'd like to point out a stopped clock case. In Sweden and Finland, the swine flu vaccine Pandemrix was linked with an increase in the risk of narcolepsy in the 4-19 year age group, around 9-fold in Finland (http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=24103) and 4-fold in Sweden (http://www.lakemedelsverket.se/english/All-news/NYHETER-2011/A-Swedish-registry-based-cohort-study-provides-strengthened-evidence-of-an-association-between-vaccination-with-Pandemrix-and-narcolepsy-in-children-and-adolescents-/). The risk wasn't all that big to begin with, so this was 60 cases out of the 70 percent of the age group vaccinated in Finland, and around 4 out of 100 000 vaccinated in Sweden, and something like 600 total in Europe. Hertzy (talk) 10:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Unless somebody objects, I'll go ahead and add this in the "In the news today" section, with the references and other markup properly done:
In August 2010, Finnish National Institute of Health and Welfare recommended that Pandemrix vaccinations be discontinued, pending investigation into 15 cases of narcolepsy in recently vaccinated children and adolescents in the previous year[1]. At the same time, the European Medicines Agency and the Swedish Medical Products agency launched their own investigations to the vaccination. Far from being quashed by Big Pharma, these studies were completed in early 2011, and concluded that there was indeed an increased Relative risk of developing narcolepsy in children and adolescents vaccinated with Pandemrix. A number of follow-up studies have given various relative risks, ranging from around threefold risk [2] to as much as 7.5 [3]. Because narcolepsy is so rare to begin with, relative risks are hard to estimate, and the confidence intervals mentioned in the studies reflect this, generally giving a range of half to one and a half times the cited risk.
As is usual with Stopped clock cases, these findings did not result in widespread adoption of vaccine denialist notions in mainstream medicine. Instead, the scientific method carried on and, two years later, produced a model that explains these findings. As might be expected, the cause was not any of the vaccine additives anti-vaxers malign, but the fact that a certain surface proteins of the H1N1 virus resemble hypocretin, a neurotransmitter that transmits the "wake up" signal. [4]
I'd feel better if there were peer reviewed refs to this. Also, this narcolepsy relationship seems to also occur in actual cases of swine flu. Is it higher/lower in the vaccine than in the disease? Also, with the base rate so small, it's hard to get precise measurements of the actual relative risk, hence the big range of reported values. Even the 3-9 CI is pretty wide. I'd prefer a statement that takes the most conservative estimate (I saw one as low as 2) and describes it as "2 or more" or some similar construction. In short, could you increase the science depth and/or present the uncertainty? Early/casual results are fine as long as their early/casualness are clear. MarmotHead (talk) 19:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
As for peer reviewed studies, here's a few links: British Medical Journal, plosone.org, and Journal of internal medicine, vaccine, giving various relative risks and confidence intervals for slightly different age groups. I got the three from Journal of internal medicine and the nine from the Finnish press release. Also, here's the study referenced in the New Scientist link: http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/216/216ra176. Hertzy (talk) 21:25, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
I did a rewrite, how does it look now? Also, is there an article on this wiki I could link to that explains the concept of confidence interval. Hertzy (talk) 21:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Better. There's no CI article but there's a small bit in Statistical significance that may or may not be relevant. FYI, it's bad ratwiki form to alter talk pages for more than typos. The fossil record shows everything but it's hard to see the conversation as a whole. MarmotHead (talk) 22:00, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Got it. I'll wait a bit more for any more comments before I go and add the section. Hertzy (talk) 22:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
The article you are referring to (http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/216/216ra176) is invalid: "This article has been retracted". I live in Sweden and have followed the Pandemrix/narcolepsy debate closely, and have not heard about this hypothesis at all. I wish you'd rewrite this section and omit the part that starts with "As is usual". /Anna Toss-Finnsio, Swedish wikipedian (talk) 22:15, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] could vaccines contain undetected, un-destroyed prions?

"134 °C (274 °F) for 18 minutes in a pressurized steam autoclave may not be enough to deactivate the agent of disease." w:Prion Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 00:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

All the equipment for shots is prepackaged and disposible. This would affect reusable medical devices like sugery equipment. I know people have claimed it, but have they never had a shot in the last 10 years? -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 00:40, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm talking about the serum: say, 1 million shots from 1 million disposable needles but from the same vat.Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 00:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Where would it come from? It would need to get into the vat in the first place. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 00:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'm a bit out of my league, but I have this idea that vaccines are likely created—let's say brewed—in a vat, or vats. The serum might have prions that we've yet to detect—there needn't be a conspiracy to infect, it's simply an error—but it's there, undetected, and undestroyed, because if I understand correctly, prions are pretty tough. Heat and the like that kills ordinary viruses might not kill these prions. They multiply, and infest the serum. Then the serum is injected into the masses, and they get sick. It might be in 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years, or 2 decades. That's what I'm wondering.Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 01:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Prion disorders that can be transmitted come from certain diseases (also in the link on prions) and don't normally just happen without genetic causes. They are hard to get even when exposed. When infected and in the full blown disorder it can be seen on an EEG and is usually fatal in 10 years after infection. Since there are people who have autism over 15 I would say it's a pretty bunk idea. You can test it and see if it is discounted...but experiance with those disorders would say it's a fishing expidition. Without testing it is easy to punch holes into. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Every instrument had a detection limit and no substance is 100% all the same species. But it's not clear at all what this has to do with vaccines. Heck, something in your refrigerator could have small amounts of prions in it. Sterile (talk) 01:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, but it's not injected. Good points both of you. I'll give them due consideration and be back in a while.Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 01:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Also in the WP article: prions may be denatured with a pretreatment of lye or chlorine bleach ("NaOH or sodium hypochlorite") followed by autoclaving. "Where would it come from?" is the right question to ask. Not all proteins are subject to the kind of misfolding that makes prion proteins dangerous. Out of my league too, but it is a safe bet that better minds than mine have considered vaccine ingredients pretty scrupulously. CamelCasePragmatist (talk) 01:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
The minute detail is a bit out of mine, but I know people who deal with it fairly (given the rarity) often. An animal needs to get infected (currently only common sources are humans/cows/sheep), then generate enough prions to cause an issue, then have their neuro tissue contaminate an injestable source, and then someone needs to do so and have the ability not to correct the prions. Prions occur normally but our bodies can do something about a reasonable concentration of them, and there are those with genetic disorders that cannot do so (~15% of prion cases).
Even then...it is a fatal disorder, it is fairly obvious to tests once someone is sick enough, and can be confused for alzhemiers/dementia in early stages. SPECTs/PETs can differentiate those. Autism is not fatal in itself and presents in a very different way.
Without a Rue Goldberg machine of errors in every vaccine ever made the only way I could think it could happen is intentional contamination requiring the help of the pharma company, FDA, maybe the doctors who provide the shot (contamination can or cannot be obvious), and every doctor that provides care for these kids for the rest of their short lives...for no reason. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 17:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Could "X" contain "Y"? Well, anything is possible. The question might be better "What is the probability that X contains a measurable quantity of Y?"--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 18:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's possible that vaccines could be contaminated with all sorts of things. Unlikely, but possible. So could literally everything else. Frederick♠♣♥♦ 05:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I've yet to give the above the reading it deserves, but I'll throw in an extra thing. Could there be something—prions, whatever—that survives the process of vaccine manufacturing, yet not survive non-injected, maybe even non-inhaled, exposure, such as ingesting or contact with skin?Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 22:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
What you are talking about is a completely undetectable, unobservable, and undiscovered substance that proves the link true based on nothing. Can I ask a question before we continue...are you looking for an actual cause or just fishing for anything that could link vaccines and autism? -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 22:44, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Not undetectable nor unobservable, but undetected and unobserved. I'm kinda fishing, admittedly, but no, I don't consider myself an anti-vaxer who's trying to link vaccines to autism. If there is a epidemic, the disease is quite contagious, and quite injurious, particularly if one is vulnerable (very old, very young, sick) then get a vaccine. But I have my suspicions and I'm uncomfortable with a somewhat strident and even unthinking element on the other side. I oppose the mandatory aspect. If vaccines are so good, why worry about someone who might be carrying the disease? Your immune system will kill it. Also, while the probability of something being in the serum there is small, the consequences of inadvertently infecting millions, even if it only manifest in a small minority of the inoculated could be quite bad. Again, I should do some reading before I get into the argument heavily.Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 23:17, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

How about this...read some more on the topic and read the parts above. Give them the proper reading they need and come back. These new topics are addressed in a number of news articles recently about the complications about the disease versus the vaccine, and herd immunity. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 00:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like a very good idea.Civic CatTalk to Civic Cat 00:10, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Disneyland measles outbreak content question

A couple of editorial questions (since this is a cover story):

  1. Should the Disneyland outbreak be a section (or sub-section) of this article and
  2. If it should, should I post the final version of the thing about it that I am writing on this talkpage first, so that it can be picked over before I add it?

I should add that I have a good bit about it that I am currently writing in Microsoft Word. Once I am done getting it ready to go, I will post the final version here for picking over. John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt (talk) 11:56, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

It should be. Put Disneyland under "In the News" under "USA". Just put it into the article, don't worry about cover story status. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 16:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Minor correction

Under "Specific concerns", "SIDS" I think "DPA/DPaT" should read "DPA/DTaP" (DTaP for "Diptheria-Tetanus-acellular Pertussis"). --Lifeformnoho (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Done. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 00:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Creative trolling of the anti-vaxxer movement

So, somebody pointed me to this interesting page Facebook, where you donate money to UNICEF's vaccine program, and dedicate your donation in the name of prominent anti-vaxxers. Thought I'd share it, since it's one of the most creative trolling campaigns I've seen. John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt (talk) 07:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Profile of anti-vaxxers

Should this go in the article? If so, where? αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 01:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Even if the connection between thiomersal and autism were true …

… it's possibly worth noting that thiomersal was eliminated from most if not all vaccines (in the United States at least) in the early 2000's. So "concerns" about the effects of thiomersal are no sensible basis for refusing vaccines in, say, 2015. Not that this irritating discrepancy fazes many anti-vax folks.— Unsigned, by: ‎ / talk / contribs

Thanks for your contribution, but the article already directly addresses this.
"In 1999, the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics requested a voluntary removal of thiomersal from vaccines and today the preservative is mainly used only in seasonal flu vaccines" —Thiomersal subsection
Ikanreed (talk) 21:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Ah. Missed that. Well, it's important to fuck up sometimes. Reminds people that you're human. :)
Personal tools