Talk:Vaccine denialism
Please keep this in mind and be sure your edits are of the quality level that implies. The abstract can be found here.
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[edit] New refs etc. 2011
There have been several books and articles published in 2011 that are worth mentioning. They include:
- Deer B. How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed. BMJ 2011;342 PMID: 21209059. (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.short).
- Deer B. Piltdown medicine: The missing link between MMR and autism. 2011; Updated 6 January 2011; Accessed: 2011 (6 January): (http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2011/01/06/brian-deer-piltdown-medicine-the-missing-link-between-mmr-and-autism/).
- Deer B. How the vaccine crisis was meant to make money. BMJ 2011;342:c5258 PMID: 21224310. (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258.full).
- Deer B. The Lancet’s two days to bury bad news. BMJ 2011;342. (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7001.short).
- Offit PA. Deadly Choices: How the anti-vaccine movement threatens us all Basic Books, 2011 (http://www.deadlychoicesbook.com/).
- Mnookin S. The Panic Virus: A True Story of Medicine, Science, and Fear: Simon & Schuster Ome, 2011 (http://books.simonandschuster.com/Panic-Virus/Seth-Mnookin/9781439158647)
--Penglish (talk) 12:10, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
[edit] Ideological objections
Shouldn't there be something in here about the (generally) right-wing ideological objections to vaccines? You know, resisting any attempt by the state to do anything that might resemble "socialised medecine", liberal nannying, or reducing one's personal freedom to chose not to vaccinate. And also the specific objections around the social impacts of vaccination, such as one cervical cancer one Schlafly objected to because it would discourage abstinence among teenage girls. And then further, that when the objections are raised, they are most likely to be raised as pseudo-scientific ones rather than the actual objections themselves. I don't know enough about it to write anything, so over to somebody who does if it has any merit. Ajkgordon (talk) 09:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- I see what you mean, but can't think of how to make it a section. Will mention it somewhere.
sshole 09:37, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's a start, but I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, so it needs improving. Sorry if I came across as a bit harsh in the libertarian bit, but I just get really frustrated with some libertarians' inability to grasp the concept that one's personal decisions do affect other people, so I take every opportunity possible to tell them to go fuck themselves.
Radioactive Misanthrope 10:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry but I removed that little bit just because it doesn't fit with the "Gold" label of the article. Otherwise, exactly what I thought it should say. Ajkgordon (talk) 10:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hey, if it didn't fit, it didn't fit.
Radioactive Misanthrope 10:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hey, if it didn't fit, it didn't fit.
- Sorry but I removed that little bit just because it doesn't fit with the "Gold" label of the article. Otherwise, exactly what I thought it should say. Ajkgordon (talk) 10:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's a start, but I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, so it needs improving. Sorry if I came across as a bit harsh in the libertarian bit, but I just get really frustrated with some libertarians' inability to grasp the concept that one's personal decisions do affect other people, so I take every opportunity possible to tell them to go fuck themselves.
[edit] Personal irony
As an aside, I find it ironic that the night I almost threw my TV out the window because of a Jenny McCarthy anti-vaccine propaganda film on the "Documentary Channel" that I watched about 5 minutes of before I was too pissed off at her, I should come here and see heavy amounts of attention given to this article. That is all. Recklessly Noise Punk What's this button do? Uh oh.... 10:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since they are no longer CRTs, throwing TVs out of windows is a lot less satisfying. Ajkgordon (talk) 10:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- But throwing and embedding remote controls into them have become far easier. CRTs are quite robust.
d hominem 10:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
- But throwing and embedding remote controls into them have become far easier. CRTs are quite robust.
[edit] Title change
This title is a "legacy title" from the early days of RW when we were constructing "essays" as much as "articles" and didn't have 7+ years experience in article creation and conventions. This is a solid article that has failed to really raise in prominence at the same rate of its cohorts and I think a big part of that is its title. Its an obscure term for what the article is about. I think it should be renamed to something like "anti-vaccination" or "anti-vaccination movement." Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- The latter IMHO. Тyrant 19:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- "Movement" is too wikipedia. I was about to suggest "anti-vaccination debate" but it's not a debate so much as bunch of idiots on youtube and daytime tv regurgitating disparate anecdotes and semi-research. Anyone have a betterer idea? Sophiebecause liberals 19:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Vaccine denialism? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- "Ignorant knobheads"? DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 19:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Too general. "Vaccine denialism" is becomeing standard these days - knobheads are everywhere. Peter Monomorium antarcticum 19:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Like WIGO:CP? /Rimshot Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Too general. "Vaccine denialism" is becomeing standard these days - knobheads are everywhere. Peter Monomorium antarcticum 19:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- "Ignorant knobheads"? DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 19:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- Vaccine denialism? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- "Movement" is too wikipedia. I was about to suggest "anti-vaccination debate" but it's not a debate so much as bunch of idiots on youtube and daytime tv regurgitating disparate anecdotes and semi-research. Anyone have a betterer idea? Sophiebecause liberals 19:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- So... ТySerious Business Guy 17:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Bump again, thinking Anti-Vaccine or Anti-Vaccine Movement. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I find the current title charming... what about just creating redirects for those? If a name change is warranted, I'd cast my vote for Vaccine denialism. — Unsigned, by: ORavenhurst / talkDo You Believe That? 18:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- The issue is that we are the only ones that refer to it as vaccine hysteria, therefor this article, one of our better ones, languishes in obscurity that it doesn't deserve. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- "Vaccine denialism" is really the only title that works given RW. "Vaccine controversy" and "anti-vaccination movement" and that ilk are, as said, too much like Wikipedia for us, while truncating it to "anti-vaccination" or "anti-vaccine" isn't really a title that makes much sense.
pathetic 18:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Just saying, by using titles like this we greatly restrict the chances of our article ever being discovered by someone who doesn't all ready agree with it. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I see that point, but what is the most appropriate direction? Odds are that even if someone didn't agree with it, they wouldn't be swayed. We have a toss up between preaching to the converted and preaching to the unconvertable.
bomination 01:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- I see that point, but what is the most appropriate direction? Odds are that even if someone didn't agree with it, they wouldn't be swayed. We have a toss up between preaching to the converted and preaching to the unconvertable.
- Just saying, by using titles like this we greatly restrict the chances of our article ever being discovered by someone who doesn't all ready agree with it. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- "Vaccine denialism" is really the only title that works given RW. "Vaccine controversy" and "anti-vaccination movement" and that ilk are, as said, too much like Wikipedia for us, while truncating it to "anti-vaccination" or "anti-vaccine" isn't really a title that makes much sense.
- The issue is that we are the only ones that refer to it as vaccine hysteria, therefor this article, one of our better ones, languishes in obscurity that it doesn't deserve. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I like vaccine hysteria better, because vaccine denialism to me is still too neutral. Vaccine denialism ain't bad, but hysteria implies that anti-vaxers are deluded and histrionic. Which they are. And that's a description I can get behind for these numbnuts. Dr. Swordopolis (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Same. Osaka Sun (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- I still say the title should be what people search for when looking for info on the topic. Vaccine denialism and Vaccine hysteria are both bad titles based on this criteria. Tmtoulouse (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Alright. ТyAsk me about frog-backed securities 01:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- "Hysteria" comes from the Greek word for uterus, and historically was used to dismiss the antics of women. That's why we have "hysteria" and "hysterical" referring to craziness, because everyone knows that those insane shrill women just have alien uterus disease that makes them crazy.
- In any event I don't favor "vaccine hysteria". "Vaccine denialism" works, but I think it's best to follow Tmtoulouse's advice and be a bit more mainstream with, say, "Anti-vaccine movement".
Acer Blue 01:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Alright. ТyAsk me about frog-backed securities 01:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- I still say the title should be what people search for when looking for info on the topic. Vaccine denialism and Vaccine hysteria are both bad titles based on this criteria. Tmtoulouse (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
[edit] In the news recently
I saw this[1] article on Forbes and thought it should go in. I'm no expert on this subject so I thought I'd bring it up and let wiser editors then myself handle it. — Unsigned, by: Hamilton / talk / contribs
- It may have been mentioned already, I'll check and find a spot for it.
theist 10:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- Hehehe... one of the comments says "here are some links to studies that PROVE the vaccine makes things worse" - ooh, a study in the Lancet? PNAS? The BMJ? No, www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoughVaccineIsMakingMattersWorse. Herp derp derp herp herp derp.
narchist 10:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- That facebook page links to at least one real study regarding parapertussis herp derp derp. Anyway I heard that something like 90% of people coming down with pertussis had been vaccinated and I personally know someone who was vaccinated 1.5 years ago and still got it. From what I've gathered, it sounds like the acellular pertussis vaccine (e.g. DTaP) may be much less effective than the (destroyed) whole virus vaccine, i.e. DTwP. Also, I heard that the US government bought buttloads of DTaP and is trying to push it to save face. I don't believe in woo woo; but it is an awful lot to ask the average person to sort all this stuff out or to trust in government bureaucrats and researchers to be unbiased and not succumb to politics, the influence of money, and groupthink. At least some of the people who are turning down vaccines are probably making rational decisions based on their limited time, cognitive abilities, access to data, and level of trust in various organizations. I have ideas on how to improve the situation but I'm sure they'd be rudely attacked here.Abraxas (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- If you mean to trust in anecdotal evidence and "I heard" then, yes, you probably would be rudely attacked here.
narchist
17:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- If you mean to trust in anecdotal evidence and "I heard" then, yes, you probably would be rudely attacked here.
- That facebook page links to at least one real study regarding parapertussis herp derp derp. Anyway I heard that something like 90% of people coming down with pertussis had been vaccinated and I personally know someone who was vaccinated 1.5 years ago and still got it. From what I've gathered, it sounds like the acellular pertussis vaccine (e.g. DTaP) may be much less effective than the (destroyed) whole virus vaccine, i.e. DTwP. Also, I heard that the US government bought buttloads of DTaP and is trying to push it to save face. I don't believe in woo woo; but it is an awful lot to ask the average person to sort all this stuff out or to trust in government bureaucrats and researchers to be unbiased and not succumb to politics, the influence of money, and groupthink. At least some of the people who are turning down vaccines are probably making rational decisions based on their limited time, cognitive abilities, access to data, and level of trust in various organizations. I have ideas on how to improve the situation but I'm sure they'd be rudely attacked here.Abraxas (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hehehe... one of the comments says "here are some links to studies that PROVE the vaccine makes things worse" - ooh, a study in the Lancet? PNAS? The BMJ? No, www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoughVaccineIsMakingMattersWorse. Herp derp derp herp herp derp.
Resistance to compulsory vaccination among healthcare workers is often reported. These are the very people at the heart of healthcare, which raises doubts about the quality of the evidence and the consensus <ref>Vaccine required, workers resist story in new News8 2012, Nov 30</ref>. This was edited out of the article... uncomfortable huh?--Brasov (talk) 12:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Not terribly impressive. It's people being paranoid - and "heart of healthcare" doesn't really say anything. These are assistants and nurses, not people qualified to assess medical risks. If you bother to read the article, the main thrust of the argument is this: "Because it's a violation of my rights and i [sic] don't believe any employer should force, coerce or threaten any employee to receive a vaccination they're opposed to just to keep their job,". The article then goes on to mention wariness of "formaldehyde, mercury, and illuminum". Two of those aren't actually in vaccines, and one of those things doesn't exist. As a quality of source, and quality of argument, that is genuinely laughable.
bomination
12:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, clinicians who inform patients about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, who are in a privileged position to observe their adverse effects on others first-hand, refuse to be vaccinated themselves. It must be paranoia. These people are just irrational and uneducated about the vaccines they recommend. Alrighty, nothing to see here, move on...--Brasov (talk) 13:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Au contraire, clinicians who inform patients about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, who are in a privileged position to observe their adverse effects on others first-hand, are taking the annual flue vaccine in droves in the UK. When you look at the stories you link to the two examples given are a nurse's assistant and a housekeeper. Not exactly Health Care experts, for all that they do a fine job in their fields. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Largest National Nurses Union Opposes Mandatory Flu Vaccination as Condition of Employment We got the vaccine zealots here downplaying the refusal by health professionals of "safe, life saving vaccination" that's happening all over the place. There only seems to be a problem when a vaccine is made mandatory for them, but not as a condition for admission of kids in school. But you swear they're innocuous, they save patient's lives, so just f--ing take the vaccine!--Brasov (talk) 13:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Compare and contrast with UNISON - one of the UK unions representing nurses -
- Largest National Nurses Union Opposes Mandatory Flu Vaccination as Condition of Employment We got the vaccine zealots here downplaying the refusal by health professionals of "safe, life saving vaccination" that's happening all over the place. There only seems to be a problem when a vaccine is made mandatory for them, but not as a condition for admission of kids in school. But you swear they're innocuous, they save patient's lives, so just f--ing take the vaccine!--Brasov (talk) 13:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Au contraire, clinicians who inform patients about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, who are in a privileged position to observe their adverse effects on others first-hand, are taking the annual flue vaccine in droves in the UK. When you look at the stories you link to the two examples given are a nurse's assistant and a housekeeper. Not exactly Health Care experts, for all that they do a fine job in their fields. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, clinicians who inform patients about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, who are in a privileged position to observe their adverse effects on others first-hand, refuse to be vaccinated themselves. It must be paranoia. These people are just irrational and uneducated about the vaccines they recommend. Alrighty, nothing to see here, move on...--Brasov (talk) 13:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
“”UNISON is urging all nurses and midwives working in health services to get their seasonal flu vaccination.
Gail Adams, UNISON Head of Nursing, said: More and more nurses, midwives and healthcare workers recognise the need to have the vaccine, because flu can kill, which is why having the flu jab will help to protect staff, their patients and families. |
- This is the nurse's union - nothing to go with government or big pharma. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, and from the link you posted
- This is the nurse's union - nothing to go with government or big pharma. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
“”Despite that, the BCNU and other health-care organizations continue to recommend immunization to their members. It’s the best we’ve got, Ms. McPherson said. But it has to be a matter of choice.
|
- So they're not against the vaccine, they're against it being mandatory. This is hardly "refusing to be vaccinated", it's "refusing to be mandated to be vaccinated" - that's a very different thing. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Thimerosal
Serious damage to astrocites exposed to Thimerosal concentrations 8.5 times lower than the one found in a flu vaccine vial have been documented in <ref>Sharpe MA, Livingston AD, Baskin DS. Thimerosal-Derived Ethylmercury Is a Mitochondrial Toxin in Human Astrocytes Journal of toxicology. 2012;2012:373678. Epub 2012 Jun 28.</ref>. Astrocytes are altered in the frontal cortex of autistic subjects, which may contribute to the pathogenesis of autism <ref>A.M. Sheikh1, W. Guang, F. Cao, A. Yin, M. Malik, W.T. Brown and X. Li Alteration of Astrocyte in the Frontal Cortex of Autistic Subjects International Society for Autism Research. 2012 May 17</ref>. This was edited out of the article too... uncomfortable! --Brasov (talk) 12:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- You know thimerosal is more or less phased out now, right? Get with the times.
narchist
12:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- I live in the present, pal. Do you? Thimerosal is the flu vaccine that's been peddled ad nauseam in the media as we speak, so it's indeed used and promoted in a massive scale. Also, phasing out a toxic substance is no excuse to lie about its safety. You get the fallacy, don't you?--Brasov (talk) 12:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thimerosal was phased out, as a purely precautionary measure to placate morons like you in 2005. Come out from under your tin foil hat and meet the real world. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- In medicine, precautionary measures taken against plausible dangers, silly, not against beliefs. Otherwise medical consensus wouldn't be evidence based, which is not what you want to imply, do you? The decision to remove it was a made to decrease overall exposure to mercury among young infants. Now, you're in denial of the two papers from 2012 connecting Thimerosal, astrocites and autism. Pants down!--Brasov (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- In immunology it's important to reach herd immunity and, with arseholes like you around, you have to work around the latest scare stories in an attempt to keep the levels high enough. Oh, and I don't think those papers say what you want them to say. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- The H.I. fallacy is so easily debunked. Vaccine-induced antibodies have waned by 10-20 years. Most wane as early as 2-3 years. This means that people vaccinated as children remain susceptible during at least 3/4ths of their adult lives. So we've always been living well below 50% immunization coverage for any "vaccine preventable" disease, including polio, whereas the Herd Immunity threshold is above 95%. Why aren't the streets littered with corpses? Shouldn't we all by dying of "vaccine preventable" diseases? --Brasov (talk) 15:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think those papers say what you want them to say. You've got to read them first, then debunk. Not the other way around, moron! You're proving to be a ball of assumptions and beliefs.--Brasov (talk) 15:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- You don't get to just pick a random, unreplicated in vivo study and claim it trumps the multitude of large scale, replicated studies that have shown no serious adverse effects from the use of thimerosal in vaccines. You also fail to understand our positions, we are stating that there is no evidence for thimerosal causing problems not that it does not. If evidence emerges it will change our minds and we go from there. But small scale, single studies do not serious evidence make. Tmtoulouse (talk) 15:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- When the study focus on an aspect never looked at before, which is the case of Thimerosal and astrocites, previous evidence is irrelevant. In previous studies this kind of toxicity was simply assumed not to be there, and therefore, the associated symptoms would have been discarded as "unrelated". You may also understand that the weight of evidence is different for a passive subject, the researcher, than for a person actively undergoing the medical procedure. For the latter, the plausibility of a serious adverse outcome is enough of a deterrent. The plausibility is there and more data keeps surfacing.--Brasov (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- The nice thing about epidemiological studies is that a specific causative factor is not needed. You can look directly at a treatment and it's effects and everything in between is a black box. Thimerosal containing vaccines underwent multiple large scale epidemiology studies that show no significant health defects, and most defiantly no relationship with autism diagnosis. Another point to make is that neither you, nor I, are toxicologist or have the expertise to fully vet the kind of studies you just linked to. We have to rely on the community of experts in that field and that involves replication and extension and metareviews none of which has happened yet for your "new data." One lesson I have learned in science is that the vast, vast, vast majority of "significant" results published in only a single study go absolutely no where. There is sooo much research being published right now that it is easy to find something that says anything you want. So far what you have cited doesn't even have other citing to it yet, let alone any sort of vetting by the wider community. And speaking of the expert community the strong consensus based on all the evidence that neither of us has the time nor expertise to go through is that there is no problem with Thimerosal in vaccines. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- The nice thing about epidemiological studies is that a specific causative factor is not needed. If it were so, Cohort studies would not rank 4th in the Hierarchy of Evidence. This means they're still plagued by biases, including diagnostic bias, if the diagnosis depends on the knowledge of the exposure status. If no exposure of astrocites is suspected - lack of knowledge - then diagnostics can oversee it. Your argument that epidemiological studies are robust to detect interactions not considered in the model, is weak.--Brasov (talk) 16:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Where epidemiological studies excel is in linking treatments to overt symptoms and particularly other diagnoses. If thimerosal exposure increased the likelihood that someone would be diagnosed with autism the epidemiological study would find that link. It would also find that link to any noticeable and reportable symptom associated with the treatment. Your right that epidemiological studies are not very good at detecting extremely rare adverse effects or symptoms that go unnoticed by patient or researchers. But this was not your initial claim. If you want to back track and say that thimerosal might cause changes to the body that don't cause major overt symptoms and are not easily detectable, that is very different than saying look it causes autism. The ladder is directly addressed by the epidemiological data, the former can not be addressed by epidemiological data. Going back directly to the linked study, lets reverse this in a thought experiment. If I came to you and said that I have a single study that discovered that when I put cancer cells and healthy cells in a petridish administration of a miracle drug only killed the cancer cells, would you advocate approval of that drug immediately for treatment of cancer? Would the fact that no one has yet to replicate it, or even cite to the research bother you? How far up the evidential ladder would you have to go till you got interested in the drug? Same idea applies here. It doesn't become interesting until there are multiple independent replications of the data. About the time the first major meta-reviews are being published that's when I am interested, but still convincing evidence will require looking at in the "wild." Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- How far up the evidential ladder would you have to go till you got interested in the drug?. For a patient in perfect health, as is the case with vaccines? Infinity and beyond. You can't apply the same reasoning to a healthy individual and a terminal cancer patient. You're losing sight of the context and have drifted far out. --Brasov (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Wow you completely missed my point, and agreed with it at the same time. You don't make decisions about safety and efficacy based on a single study, specially not one of the quality you have linked to. Tmtoulouse (talk) 19:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yet another miss. You do make decisions about safety and efficacy based on a single study if you're a healthy person proposed for treatment of a perceived risk. You do even with less, if the product is a strong neurotoxic of no therapeutic value. You treat people, not risks, and the effect of a mixture of both intended an uninteded antigens on a given indivudual is Russian Roulette.--Brasov (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what this is supposed to say. It seems like pigeon chess - all you've done is say "nu-uuuh!!!!!!" and that's it. What is your point? You present one, single, small-scale study, are told by a statistics expert that this is not a significant trump card to play against larger and more useful evidence, and then what? Just reply "no", and that's it.
gnostic
23:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- My point has been spelled out in very clear wording before replies started to drift after red herrings: "When a study focues on an aspect never looked at before....". The red herrings mean you guys struck bedrock. Replies have entered a loop, uninteresting. --Brasov (talk) 23:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- That didn't very clearly explain anything. That's why I'm curious as to why you think this single study trumps a lot of other evidence. Besides, you're still discussing a chemical that's phased out of vaccines, and using it as a case against all vaccination - even still a compound for which there is no epidemiological link to neurotoxity stemming from exposure in vaccines.
postate
00:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- you're still discussing a chemical that's phased out of vaccines. Look, you're repeating. I already said Thimerosal is used massively, in spite of your "phase-out" allegation, in flu vaccines. When I'm forced to make such obvious points, it means I'm being challenged by people that know zilch about the subject.--Brasov (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- there is no epidemiological link to neurotoxity stemming from exposure in vaccines. I've already addressed that too. Go back to my: "Cohort studies rank 4th in the Hierarchy of Evidence. This means they're still plagued by biases, including diagnostic bias...". Being asked the same questions over and over again shows your lack of arguments against the points made.--Brasov (talk) 09:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- The page states that no new vaccines contain thimerosal. That is phasing out. It also states the CDC has no evidence that it's harmful. Now, when you state "cohort studies rank 4th" that means this: NOTHING. Studies look at evidence in different ways, and some allow us to see subtle effects more easily. But that doesn't mean one type of test will show one answer and something else might show a different one. Vaccines have been used for so long as studied so extensively that these studies will have shown a link - regardless of this arbitrary ranking. You don't understand how testing and epidemiology work if you're making this assertion.
pathetic
11:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- That is phasing out. Red herring. The product is used massively as we speak and the intention of phasing it out has no bearing on the toxicity of the product, other than precautionary measures amount to an acknowledgement of risks.--Brasov (talk) 13:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- Vaccines have been used for so long as studied so extensively these studies will have shown a link.(1) regarding use, claims of autism are abundantly filed by users and denied. (2) Regarding "studies will have shown a link", this is Inductive reasoning, which is subjective and does not necessary follow.--Brasov (talk) 13:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- when you state "cohort studies rank 4th" that means this: NOTHING. When you dismiss with You present one, single, small-scale study, it also means NOTHING. Debunking a study without opening its text and reading it is an exercise in stupidity, I won't play. Still you claim that epidemiological studies where this type of toxicity wasn't even contemplated in the design, because it was unknwon, imply the study on astrocites is flawed. It actually implies the studies are irrelevant for the topic at hand. --Brasov (talk) 13:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- The page states that no new vaccines contain thimerosal. That is phasing out. It also states the CDC has no evidence that it's harmful. Now, when you state "cohort studies rank 4th" that means this: NOTHING. Studies look at evidence in different ways, and some allow us to see subtle effects more easily. But that doesn't mean one type of test will show one answer and something else might show a different one. Vaccines have been used for so long as studied so extensively that these studies will have shown a link - regardless of this arbitrary ranking. You don't understand how testing and epidemiology work if you're making this assertion.
- That didn't very clearly explain anything. That's why I'm curious as to why you think this single study trumps a lot of other evidence. Besides, you're still discussing a chemical that's phased out of vaccines, and using it as a case against all vaccination - even still a compound for which there is no epidemiological link to neurotoxity stemming from exposure in vaccines.
- My point has been spelled out in very clear wording before replies started to drift after red herrings: "When a study focues on an aspect never looked at before....". The red herrings mean you guys struck bedrock. Replies have entered a loop, uninteresting. --Brasov (talk) 23:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what this is supposed to say. It seems like pigeon chess - all you've done is say "nu-uuuh!!!!!!" and that's it. What is your point? You present one, single, small-scale study, are told by a statistics expert that this is not a significant trump card to play against larger and more useful evidence, and then what? Just reply "no", and that's it.
- Yet another miss. You do make decisions about safety and efficacy based on a single study if you're a healthy person proposed for treatment of a perceived risk. You do even with less, if the product is a strong neurotoxic of no therapeutic value. You treat people, not risks, and the effect of a mixture of both intended an uninteded antigens on a given indivudual is Russian Roulette.--Brasov (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Wow you completely missed my point, and agreed with it at the same time. You don't make decisions about safety and efficacy based on a single study, specially not one of the quality you have linked to. Tmtoulouse (talk) 19:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- How far up the evidential ladder would you have to go till you got interested in the drug?. For a patient in perfect health, as is the case with vaccines? Infinity and beyond. You can't apply the same reasoning to a healthy individual and a terminal cancer patient. You're losing sight of the context and have drifted far out. --Brasov (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Where epidemiological studies excel is in linking treatments to overt symptoms and particularly other diagnoses. If thimerosal exposure increased the likelihood that someone would be diagnosed with autism the epidemiological study would find that link. It would also find that link to any noticeable and reportable symptom associated with the treatment. Your right that epidemiological studies are not very good at detecting extremely rare adverse effects or symptoms that go unnoticed by patient or researchers. But this was not your initial claim. If you want to back track and say that thimerosal might cause changes to the body that don't cause major overt symptoms and are not easily detectable, that is very different than saying look it causes autism. The ladder is directly addressed by the epidemiological data, the former can not be addressed by epidemiological data. Going back directly to the linked study, lets reverse this in a thought experiment. If I came to you and said that I have a single study that discovered that when I put cancer cells and healthy cells in a petridish administration of a miracle drug only killed the cancer cells, would you advocate approval of that drug immediately for treatment of cancer? Would the fact that no one has yet to replicate it, or even cite to the research bother you? How far up the evidential ladder would you have to go till you got interested in the drug? Same idea applies here. It doesn't become interesting until there are multiple independent replications of the data. About the time the first major meta-reviews are being published that's when I am interested, but still convincing evidence will require looking at in the "wild." Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Another point to make is that neither you, nor I, are toxicologist. Thare are many situations in which an "appeal to authority" is fallacious. For example, a toxicologist publishes a concentration of Thimerosal that is highly toxic in-vitro to astrocites: concentration A. Another toxicologist publishes the concentration of Thimerosal in the Flu vaccine: concentration B. What level of expertise is needed to conclude: B > A? I'll tell you: not even basic arithmetic or the four rules. Then you can go to great lengths to explain how the highly toxic vial concentration is supposed to diffuse from the injection site into the bloodstream without exposing your astrocites to a toxic concentration in the process.--Brasov (talk) 16:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- But that is just it your leaping way ahead of yourself. Your not comparing apples to apples, your comparing a single, non-replicated, uncited, small scale, in vivo study to 20 years worth of research spanning many forms of data collection and analysis. You have a single data point, the field has a preponderance of evidence. The appeal to authority comes not in examining a single study but rather the experts who have reviewed the extremely voluminous amounts of published studies and tell us that their is no evidence of an increase in risk associated with its use. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- You're diverting, not addressing my objections. I'm not "jumping ahead of myself", as the concentration A is given in the study I cited above, and B is given in any flu vaccine insert. Go look them up. Then tell anyone that isn't illiterate that's fine and dandy to have such a vial injected. An please, stop hiding behind "voluminous" amount of volumes you've never read and neither have most of the "voluminous" amount of "experts" that subscribed you pretended consensus.--Brasov (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but when I was at the annual meeting of the Royal Statistical Society which was held, that year, in honour of a medical statistician, I brought up the subject of vaccine hysteria. These guys have read the volumous amount of volumes - they wrote most of them. They also know, as statisticians, how to handle data, what is significant and what is not. Call it an appeal to authority but whose opinion would you take, a collection of the top medical statisticians in the UK or some internet nutter? Just saying. Innocent Bystander (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- or some internet nutter?. Someone like you? Going back to the "volumous amount of volumes" argument... The volumes of knowledge Evolution has written in our genes vastly overweight anything your petty Society members can possibly achieve. Vaccines do not make a healthy human, neither do meds. Our genome has defined, by Natural Selection, what's good for our health: proper nutrition, proper elimination, physical activity, rest... just use the evolutionary knowledge instead of reinventing the wheel.--Brasov (talk) 11:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- If you're looking for Vaccine Hysteria you need go no further than the WHO: WHO - State of the World's Vaccines and Immunization "Foreword - Imagine a world without vaccines. Life-threatening diseases would present a daily risk. We would live in fear of deadly strains of diphtheria, tetanus and measles; polio would be a constant danger and in a matter of hours could paralyze a child, and smallpox would continue to scar and kill. All these diseases would claim the lives of our children in vast numbers, families watching helplessly. Lives would be cut short and people’s movement severely restricted. Cities would be places to flee at the first rumour of infection rather than magnets for culture, commerce and learning. It is hard to imagine the loss in lives, creativity, productivity, potential and well-being.".--Brasov (talk) 17:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- You can not compare a very small scale in vitro study, with zero replication and say that its results through some magical crank transitive property are perfectly applicable to exposure in people through vaccines. Your missing a lot of middle and that is why your jumping ahead of yourself. Regardless, I am not in the mood for internet argument, I am not an expert nor are you. I assume your point in all of this is you want to include new material in the article. I am telling you that at the very least you would have to cite evidence that has been independently replicated. Until then there is no point including something that is likely to go nowhere. Tmtoulouse (talk) 17:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- What Trent said. Otherwise this is argumentum ad tedium.
narchist
17:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- What Trent said. Otherwise this is argumentum ad tedium.
- Sorry, but when I was at the annual meeting of the Royal Statistical Society which was held, that year, in honour of a medical statistician, I brought up the subject of vaccine hysteria. These guys have read the volumous amount of volumes - they wrote most of them. They also know, as statisticians, how to handle data, what is significant and what is not. Call it an appeal to authority but whose opinion would you take, a collection of the top medical statisticians in the UK or some internet nutter? Just saying. Innocent Bystander (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- You're diverting, not addressing my objections. I'm not "jumping ahead of myself", as the concentration A is given in the study I cited above, and B is given in any flu vaccine insert. Go look them up. Then tell anyone that isn't illiterate that's fine and dandy to have such a vial injected. An please, stop hiding behind "voluminous" amount of volumes you've never read and neither have most of the "voluminous" amount of "experts" that subscribed you pretended consensus.--Brasov (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- But that is just it your leaping way ahead of yourself. Your not comparing apples to apples, your comparing a single, non-replicated, uncited, small scale, in vivo study to 20 years worth of research spanning many forms of data collection and analysis. You have a single data point, the field has a preponderance of evidence. The appeal to authority comes not in examining a single study but rather the experts who have reviewed the extremely voluminous amounts of published studies and tell us that their is no evidence of an increase in risk associated with its use. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- The nice thing about epidemiological studies is that a specific causative factor is not needed. If it were so, Cohort studies would not rank 4th in the Hierarchy of Evidence. This means they're still plagued by biases, including diagnostic bias, if the diagnosis depends on the knowledge of the exposure status. If no exposure of astrocites is suspected - lack of knowledge - then diagnostics can oversee it. Your argument that epidemiological studies are robust to detect interactions not considered in the model, is weak.--Brasov (talk) 16:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- The nice thing about epidemiological studies is that a specific causative factor is not needed. You can look directly at a treatment and it's effects and everything in between is a black box. Thimerosal containing vaccines underwent multiple large scale epidemiology studies that show no significant health defects, and most defiantly no relationship with autism diagnosis. Another point to make is that neither you, nor I, are toxicologist or have the expertise to fully vet the kind of studies you just linked to. We have to rely on the community of experts in that field and that involves replication and extension and metareviews none of which has happened yet for your "new data." One lesson I have learned in science is that the vast, vast, vast majority of "significant" results published in only a single study go absolutely no where. There is sooo much research being published right now that it is easy to find something that says anything you want. So far what you have cited doesn't even have other citing to it yet, let alone any sort of vetting by the wider community. And speaking of the expert community the strong consensus based on all the evidence that neither of us has the time nor expertise to go through is that there is no problem with Thimerosal in vaccines. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- When the study focus on an aspect never looked at before, which is the case of Thimerosal and astrocites, previous evidence is irrelevant. In previous studies this kind of toxicity was simply assumed not to be there, and therefore, the associated symptoms would have been discarded as "unrelated". You may also understand that the weight of evidence is different for a passive subject, the researcher, than for a person actively undergoing the medical procedure. For the latter, the plausibility of a serious adverse outcome is enough of a deterrent. The plausibility is there and more data keeps surfacing.--Brasov (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- You don't get to just pick a random, unreplicated in vivo study and claim it trumps the multitude of large scale, replicated studies that have shown no serious adverse effects from the use of thimerosal in vaccines. You also fail to understand our positions, we are stating that there is no evidence for thimerosal causing problems not that it does not. If evidence emerges it will change our minds and we go from there. But small scale, single studies do not serious evidence make. Tmtoulouse (talk) 15:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- In immunology it's important to reach herd immunity and, with arseholes like you around, you have to work around the latest scare stories in an attempt to keep the levels high enough. Oh, and I don't think those papers say what you want them to say. Innocent Bystander (talk) 14:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- In medicine, precautionary measures taken against plausible dangers, silly, not against beliefs. Otherwise medical consensus wouldn't be evidence based, which is not what you want to imply, do you? The decision to remove it was a made to decrease overall exposure to mercury among young infants. Now, you're in denial of the two papers from 2012 connecting Thimerosal, astrocites and autism. Pants down!--Brasov (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thimerosal was phased out, as a purely precautionary measure to placate morons like you in 2005. Come out from under your tin foil hat and meet the real world. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- I live in the present, pal. Do you? Thimerosal is the flu vaccine that's been peddled ad nauseam in the media as we speak, so it's indeed used and promoted in a massive scale. Also, phasing out a toxic substance is no excuse to lie about its safety. You get the fallacy, don't you?--Brasov (talk) 12:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
- "8.5 times lower than the one found in a flu vaccine vial" A flu vaccine dose is 0.5 ml. The human body has about 5000 mililiters of blood. The vaccine is injected into the veins, not the carotid artery. Don't worry, it's still safe! Hipocrite (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
- A highly toxic vial with "safety factor": the subject itself. It's like: "Hey, this junk is deadly to astrocites and you'll make it safe, not us. No worries!". The subject is expected to function as waste filter, diluting the toxic concentrate with its blood and swearing by Glaxo that no toxic level can ever reach the brain in the process. Mindless and reckless. Not with me, not with my child!--
Brasov 00:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- And what exactly puts you in possession of information that medical science does not have about the toxicity of vaccines and/or thimerosal? And do try to come up with something better than cui bono. EVDebs (talk) 01:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Medical science is the source of the data I share. You must be mistaking science with textbooks, package inserts of CDC fliers. Go to the primary sources and look at the data, then instead of buying the author's interpretation, question it. Find the flaws, reconnect the dots. Brains have a function, don't take inductive shortcuts like "lots of people can't be wrong". They can because they also took the same shorcut. --
Brasov 02:00, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Ah yes, the Eric S. Raymond error cascade. Because science never uses multiple lines of evidence to prove things. EVDebs (talk) 02:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Science this, science that... Appeal to an abstraction. Science can't be assimilated to scientists, which are people presumed to produce science. When the founders of Evidence Based Medicine, Cochrane Collaboration were forced to conclude: "...The review [ of industry funded studies ] showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies..." you know something is very, very rotten in Danemark. Your appeal to trust (the mental shortcut again) has to be backed by evidence of the safeguard mechanisms of Science actually being observed by the people doing vaccines. But the evidence points to the exact opposite.--
Brasov 10:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Science this, science that... Appeal to an abstraction. Science can't be assimilated to scientists, which are people presumed to produce science. When the founders of Evidence Based Medicine, Cochrane Collaboration were forced to conclude: "...The review [ of industry funded studies ] showed that reliable evidence on influenza vaccines is thin but there is evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety of the studies..." you know something is very, very rotten in Danemark. Your appeal to trust (the mental shortcut again) has to be backed by evidence of the safeguard mechanisms of Science actually being observed by the people doing vaccines. But the evidence points to the exact opposite.--
- Ah yes, the Eric S. Raymond error cascade. Because science never uses multiple lines of evidence to prove things. EVDebs (talk) 02:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Medical science is the source of the data I share. You must be mistaking science with textbooks, package inserts of CDC fliers. Go to the primary sources and look at the data, then instead of buying the author's interpretation, question it. Find the flaws, reconnect the dots. Brains have a function, don't take inductive shortcuts like "lots of people can't be wrong". They can because they also took the same shorcut. --
- And what exactly puts you in possession of information that medical science does not have about the toxicity of vaccines and/or thimerosal? And do try to come up with something better than cui bono. EVDebs (talk) 01:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- A highly toxic vial with "safety factor": the subject itself. It's like: "Hey, this junk is deadly to astrocites and you'll make it safe, not us. No worries!". The subject is expected to function as waste filter, diluting the toxic concentrate with its blood and swearing by Glaxo that no toxic level can ever reach the brain in the process. Mindless and reckless. Not with me, not with my child!--
[edit] Canadian Public Health Association
Article on how to evaluate reliability of info on the net. [2] Focuses on vaccination info, but is obviously more broadly applicable. Pashley (talk) 06:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)