Talk:Welfare state

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so much BIAS!.

is this a conservapedia article ?Waronstupidity (talk) 22:45, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, this seems far more like a Conservapedia article than a RatWiki article. I especially like the complete lack of any sources. Oh, and the part where the article treats welfare like it's a bribe given out by the government (or, maybe, candy given out by the government trying to lure you into it's van) Perceptron (talk) 02:55, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
An interesting note is that Social Security (in the USA) is not a welfare program--workers pay into it under the conception that they will receive money out of it if they are retired or disabled. Medicare is also not a welfare program for the same reasons. Medicaid, however, is a welfare program, as is WIC (Women, Infants and Children support). Welfare is established in the Preamble of the Constitution ("provide for the common welfare"), though many conservatives would deny it, which begs the question: what do conservatives think the Founding Fathers meant when it was included in the preamble? --Sethpeck (talk) 22:53, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalist welfare states

Are a contradiction of terms. Talsley (talk) 14:42, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree, real capitalist moral upstanding Christian countries let their fellow man die if they can't pay the bills. --84.158.69.31 (talk) 14:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Troll
That is a matter for private charity not the state. Anything else is anti-capitalism i.e. socialism. Talsley (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Seeing as capitalists are bloodsucking parasites who take the money that other people work to bring in, that can only be a good thing. Cue argumentum ad stalinum. SophieWilder 20:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
What? Provide evidence. I do not understand. Talsley (talk) 16:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I am still waiting. Talsley (talk) 15:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

[edit] RationalWiki, Fair and Balanced.

Love the bias here. How's it like acting exactly like the people you antagonize in Conservapedia? 95.14.215.211 (talk)

Yes; we are exactly like whatever a "conservapedia" is. Picon small.pngAcer Blue 13:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
You are not good at comebacks, are you? 95.14.198.5 (talk)
Please see RationalWiki:SPOV. Thank you. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 09:45, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
What, precisely did you think is wrong with the article? Not much point in making generic and gratuitous comments unless you also make specific points also. --DamoHi 09:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

[edit] What's your reason behind?

I gave you my reason countless times in the fossil record. Now it's your turn. 95.14.240.35 (talk)

Frankly I think the article is pretty fair. I think you might be able to suggest some additions to "the bad" section along the lines of welfare creates dependency or prevents economic growth or whatever, provided you cite some sources to suggest it. However I don't think you will get very far in taking out information that critiques the woo aspects of the opposition to welfare (ie healthcare leads to concentration camps or even some of the relatively saner Hayek 'bureacracy leads to serfdom' stuff). As for the democracy index part I agree it could be described better. --DamoHi 11:15, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Still, defending welfare as caring for others is quite the straw man, comparable to defending conscription and nationalism as caring for your country and supremacism as caring for your race. Also, the economic freedom index may be used to show that government control of the economy correlates with low quality of life. Things like that are on the WP page. 95.14.240.35 (talk)
I don't agree with your first point at all. I think opposition to paying taxes to help out the poorer members of society is fundamentally based around selfishness. I think it gets dressed up in all sorts of ways but at its root I think that people just don't want to look after others. I would be interested in seeing you show that moderate government of the economy correlates with lower quality of life. Looking at, for example rates of eduaction (surely a relevant factor in quality of life), it would appear that many of the states that have a relatively strong welfare state are performing very well in giving their kids a good education. [1] But I am prepared to hear you out. Astound me with your stats. --DamoHi 11:26, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess then opposition to the draft is based primarily on a selfish desire not to die in the army, but does that entail that conscription is altruistic care for the country? If people didn't want to look out for others, and only stronger governments would make them do so, North Korea would be one of the most prosperous places in the world. But do people share in North Korea? Certainly not. See, selfishness amplifies when people don't get (what they think) is the true value of their work. If people had an intrinsic tendency not to look after another, multibillion dollar charities wouldn't exist. If mothers couldn't care for their babies without societal force, we wouldn't be existing. If you insist on empirical results, this, starting from page 23, I think will help. 95.14.240.35 (talk)
Anyways its 12:30am here so I shall retire from the argument. No doubt if you are polite and articulate someone will succeed me. --DamoHi 11:32, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh, dear, BoN. Talk about lying with statistics. In the list of "most free" right there at #12, is the UK with universal health care free at the point of delivery, and around one third of the national budget being spent on the Welfare State. Your pretty pictures do not show what you think they do. By US terms the UK is a far left socialist country and yet we outrank the US (#18) for "economic freedom". WTF! Innocent Bystander (talk) 12:40, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
BoN does not seem to have read the paper, but has simply looked at the graphs at the end. Most of the countries within the "economically most free" are countries with a healthy welfare system. I see NZ at 3 which has universal healthcare, public (compulsory) accident insurance, unemployment and domestic purposes benefits etc etc. If BoN were serious, he would point to stats which showed that the government provision of welfare tended to lower economic performance. I have some doubt as to whether such stats exist, but I remain waiting. DamoHi 22:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
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