To clarify our misunderstanding earlier

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To clarify our misunderstanding earlier

On your user page you frequently refer to the plight of "cis" people, but you definitely mean the word "trans." Cis means not trans, basically. Nobody's trying to "cure the cis problem." :)

Blue (pester)02:23, 12 February 2012

Yes they are - haven't you heard about the gay agenda?

Peter Monomorium antarcticum02:29, 12 February 2012

OHHHHHHHH. i'm soooo sorry. (dumb new words - heh)

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina03:07, 12 February 2012

People want to use 'cis' and 'trans', and yet they don't want to use gender-neutral pronouns. :(. Why can't people be more like me? Then all our problems would be solved.

F03:14, 12 February 2012

Gender neutral pronouns are hard to explain, follow enforce. cis-trans aren't going to be "normal" use outside of people who care about the issues.

Course, I work with a language with no genders, and speak a language that genders every noun, it just isn't a "thing" to me.

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina03:37, 12 February 2012

What do you mean, 'no genders'?

Peter Monomorium antarcticum03:51, 12 February 2012

Lakota has no "he" or "she". American Sign, as well, has no "he" or "she".

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina05:40, 12 February 2012

I suppose I can understand the lakota thing, as there's no reason to say that this is the only way to do it, but how did ASL (which I would've thought would have been fairly closely based on 'murrican english) manage it?

Peter Monomorium antarcticum06:20, 12 February 2012

ASL has nothing to do with english at all. the structure is as different from indo European languages as I can imagine - for a host of reasons.

For what it's worth, ASL is closely related to French sign, but again, it's not based on French. The only real connection to english is borrowed vocabs. In the way English borrows "tsunami" from Japaneses.

If you care, ASL doesn't have a copula, doesn't really have subject/object, but rather "topic". (I have a hard time with that, by the way. I cannot think in ASL, cause i can't figure out what a topic is. Japanese uses topics.)

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina07:36, 12 February 2012

Learn something new every day... Why didn't they base it off English?

Peter Monomorium antarcticum07:42, 12 February 2012

Because they realized they could make a better language? Hell, I could make a better language.

F08:02, 12 February 2012

Braille isn't its own language.... is it?

Peter Monomorium antarcticum08:06, 12 February 2012

Yes, because the people who created ASL went "Hmm, you know, how can we make this as much like Braille as possible? I mean, they're both languages for people with disabilities -- they have to be similar".

Fucking disablist.

F08:16, 12 February 2012

What I was going with is that the thing with being blind and being deaf is that if prevents you communicating in one way (say, verbally) but not the other (visually in that case). In the case of Braille, the idea seems to have been to simply replace the visual writing with something that was effectively identical but could be understood by blind people.

I had assumed that the same would have been true for sign language, but I'm now learning that my assumptions seem to be rather horribly flawed here. Considering that I'm slightly deaf and have already narrowly avoided becoming blind once, I wouldn't mind having my 'disablist' views corrected before it's too late... :D

Peter Monomorium antarcticum08:23, 12 February 2012

Braille is an alphabet. it's used in French, English, German, etc. And the systems of braille (a 6 celled form, you "punch" any or all of the dots) is used in most languages with their own system. ⠿ is the cells all blacked out. a is one dot, ⠗ is a P if i followed the chart correctly. (wikipedia has the chart and the unicodes). So you are seeing an exact representation of written english, or french or whatever other language. The person can hear, so they speak the native language and just need to learn to spell like the rest of us.

Deaf people, on the other hand, do not hear the language. So, early on, attempts were made to sign the spoken language. You had a sign for "hello", and a sign for "my" and a sign for "name" and of course a sign for "is", "am" "was" "will be", etc. But it was clutzy and didn't render well for people who had not acquired English, or german, or japanese.

Deaf people almost universally, sign languages that are visual, not temporal. It's just more efficient that way. So instead of knowing that "the first word in a sentence is the subject, and they you put the object" signed languages sign inside of the space. So you can put "bob" on your right side, and "chuck" on your left side. From there, instead of saying "bob is a business man", you sign in your right side "business man". and if bob and chuck have a meeting, you sign the verb "meet" from both your right and left sides and bring it together. When I sign that you used to have "long blond hair", i make the sign of "hair" (which is, in effect touching your hair), with a Y-hand for "yellow", and draw it down as long as your hair was. I single movement for the concept.

And given who introduced sign to whom, it's fun to know that American Sign Language is incomprehensible to Brits, but is mostly understandable to Japanese. (We introduced ASL to Japan, France introduced it to us, but the Brits and by extension, Aussi Sign, and NZ sign were independently developed).

If you read a deaf person's writing on a wiki, or on Youtube, or any other comment section, they usually sound like any other foreign speaker, making the kinds of small mistakes anyone who learned english as a second language makes. noun-verb agreement, correct use of past, and "a" vs. "the" for example.

It's a pretty cool language to learn. :-)

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina16:26, 12 February 2012

Braille is actually pretty awesome; but the signs we make with it are a bit of a mess sometimes: saw a phone number thing next to a phone that had the braille for the names of what the numbers called but not the actual numbers themselves.

il'Dictator Mikal (talk)16:30, 12 February 2012

What do you mean? I'm curious. It didn't say what numbers to call, just the name of the place?

Generally, it is a one to one rendering, so it doesn't take any more time to write in braille than in any other script.

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina16:34, 12 February 2012

yah, (this is one one of those "heres a helpful reminder if you are in an emergency and need these numbers" deals) there was the braille for "this is the place!" and the numbers are across, like you'd expect, only there wasn't any braille for the numbers, which sort of negates any benefits of having the first braille on the names

il'Dictator Mikal (talk)16:38, 12 February 2012

Excellent! I always wondered how the blind even found the braille on elevators, hotel rooms or something. I can only assume that there are standards about where the signs would be, so you knew / know to expect them?

Pink mowse.pngGodotGrow a vagina16:40, 12 February 2012
 
 
 
 
 

I believe the term you meant was "ablist."

Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.05:55, 14 February 2012

Ablist, shmablist...

Peter Monomorium antarcticum06:00, 14 February 2012