User talk:Bertrc

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How serious are we - well, we welcome all voices but be prepared to defend your viewpoint against some rather pointed criticisms. Bad Faith (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Cool! --Bertrc (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Hello Bertrc

Let me share with you my opinion on the problem of evil. I believe God loves us as particular persons. Let me give an example - Patrick and Michelle had a daughter Sarah, but Sarah died when she was three months old. Then they had a son Steven. Now, Pat and Michelle may very much wish that Sarah had not died - but if she had not, would their son Steven exist? Quite possibly, if Sarah had lived, they would still have had another child anyway - but would that other child have been Steven? There would be a significant likelihood that next child would have been conceived at a different time than Steven was, quite possibly with a different egg. If you consider the millions of sperm, and the myriad chance events which must determine which sperm fertilises the egg, it would almost certainly be a different sperm also. So this other child would have had different DNA. And his or her experiences of growing up, having an older sister vs. being the eldest, would be very different also. So, it seems, Steven's existence depends on Sarah's death; in a world in which Sarah lives, Steven is never born, even if a younger sibling is, that younger sibling is not going to be Steven. (Even if they had a boy, and named him Steven, these two "Stevens" would have different experiences and likely different DNA too, and thus not be the same person despite having the same name.) It is like Sarah and Steven are incompatible existents. But, since God loves us as particular persons, God loves Steven as a particular person, and loves him enough to cause his existence. But since his existence requires Sarah's death, thus God causes Sarah's death as a means to the end of Steven's existence. God creates good as an end-in-itself, and evil as a necessary means to the end of good. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 23:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Bert, pay no attention to Mara. He spouts this sort of cretinous prattle constantly. Eventually he becomes a bit like the hum of a rather shabby household appliance. You cease to notice. MtDPinko Scum 23:24, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Mratrean's muttering sounds like my old vacuum cleaner. AceAce For Mod! 23:25, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Or a cheap vibrator whats batteries is running down but you don't care enough to replace them. --MtDPinko Scum 23:36, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
I got this razor with an electric bread-trimmer on one end. It sounds like Maratrean when the batteries run down. Funnily enough when the blade goes dull it is akin to Maratreans cutting wit. AceAce For Mod! 23:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Let's be honest: It is no worse than most of the stuff I have been spouting.  :-) --Bertrc (talk) 00:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Maratrean, I think you should be very careful. I think it is quite dangerous to think we can understand things to such specificity. Heck, I even think it is dangerous to try to understand things at the vague, general levels with which I have been irritating people on those talk pages. I just do not think we can come close to understanding the why's and wherefore's of suffering that way. Personally, I feel a little affronted when somebody claims my suffering (miniscule though it might be) is part of God's plan and I feel even more irritated if they try to tell me what good might come out of it. However, I gladly accept that, ultimately, God can bring good out of it and that God's plan for my good has not been derailed by it. That is the metaphysical level. On a practical level, the people on this site could tear huge holes in the scenario you give above.  :-) . . . I don't want to be harsh . . . but it is a little simplistic. Their daughter died. That is a tragedy and no earthly reasoning can change that. I would pray that God be with them and that they turn to God. I would grieve, as God is grieving, with them. If it were at all appropriate (if they came to me or some such) I could tell them I am praying and grieving for them; I might talk about God being with them and feeling their pain; at most, I might talk about how God can bring about all things for our good, even though "how" is beyond me . . . Heh, actually, I hope that I would first pray that God help me center myself on Him; I would pray that loving and being loved by Him might lead me to make the correct decisions in what to say to Patrick and Michelle.  :-) --Bertrc (talk) 00:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Bert, this line of thought, to explain the evil in the world, I'm not suggesting that at a pastoral level it is necessarily the right answer for every person in every situation, but that something isn't helpful for someone in their immediate situation doesn't mean it's wrong either. Myself, I'm sure if once you told me that my sufferings were part of God's plan for the greater good, I would have got rather angry and thought you stupid. But having thought about the topic an awful lot, I have reached the conclusion that it is the right answer. Now, if I'm in the middle of some pain or trauma, I'll still believe this in my head but probably not in my heart, whereas in more pacific times I can believe it in my heart more. But my difficulty in fully absorbing this answer, at an emotional level, doesn't mean for me it is wrong. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 01:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I should add, I actually am the equivalent of Steven in the above example. Well, the names and some of the details have been changed, but in broad outline that is my own life story. Maybe that is why the explanation makes most sense to me, since I've thought about that personal fact about me (I am the eldest surviving child of my parents, but not the eldest child of my parents) a fair amount over the years. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 01:38, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Dude, I don't know if that kind of thinking is healthy for you. You are more special than that. To be blunt, your sibling is more special than that as well. If the heart of the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the entire, friggin' Universe overflows at the thought of you, then, IMHO, no sibling had to die any more than any sibling had to live for you to be there. Death is a tragedy and the fact that you are growing up without a sibling is a tragedy; don't forget how Jesus wept when Lazarus died. However, none of those statements needs to remove hope or cause despair. Yes, I pray that you realize God is there, for and with you, and that you are moved by the wonder of it; but I also pray for you to realize God is there, for and with your sibling, and for you to realize how blindingly wonderful that is. --Bertrc (talk) 02:00, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, maybe this is where you really get off the bus... but my own thinking is that there exists a parallel universe (or universes) in which my elder siblings lived, but myself (and my younger siblings) were never born. If God can create one universe, why can't he create several? Us two groups of siblings (my deceased elder siblings, and myself and my living younger siblings) are incompatible, we can't exist in the same universe, but that doesn't mean God can't create two universes, one for us and one for them. That is how God shows his love for both of us groups of siblings, by creating for each of us universes containing the events necessary for our existence. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 02:20, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
. . . But this is what I mean by unhealthy. You can imagine one universe where you are, and one where your elder sibling is, but none where you both are? Aside from that, this is God we are talking about. Sure He might have created parallel universes but why would he want to? Again, I am sorry to be blunt, but it sounds more like something that you want. My life has lead me to the belief that God tends to give us what we truly long for, not what we happen to think we want. What we truly need and long for is God. Do you know the passage in the Bible where a paraplegic comes to Jesus through the hole in the roof? Jesus doesn't heal the guy; instead, Jesus forgives his sins because that is what the guy truly wanted and needed. Jesus only heals the guy for the sake of the other people around. If I were to venture a guess, I think you need to see the power and majesty of a God that can go beyond your paltry imaginings. A God that doesn't have to bother creating separate Universes for each of two children He loves so dearly; instead He can create a single, eternal existence that will be a wonder for both of them, even if the younger one can't grasp it yet. --Bertrc (talk) 02:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I don't think separate universes are forever separate. God will, in due time, bring them together into union/communication with each other. In my belief, souls and universes merge and divide. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 03:15, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes . . . but try to see how this might not be a healthy. Why can't you imagine that there is a universe with both of you? You can believe that there is a Universe where you are not alive (or even exist), but you cannot believe there is a Universe where you both are alive; that strikes me as some sort of emotional or mental block. Not that I think there is a universe where both of you are alive any more than I think there is a universe where you are not alive; I truly think you are underselling God to think He cannot express perfect love to you both within the same universe, even if your elder sibling died in infancy. --Bertrc (talk) 03:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Michelle? Is she that fundie brood sow with the eleventy-squillion offspring? --MtDPinko Scum 00:21, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
No, they were just random names I pulled out of a hat. Zack Martin HolyMaratreanSigil.png 01:29, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Ah. I really should read these things before I mouth off. I'm surprised to see you equating yourself with "Steven". I had always assumed you're as a queer as a double breasted hat. --MtDPinko Scum 01:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
MtD . . . So, if I understand your logic, you no longer think he is gay because you found out he had an elder sibling. That seems to imply that you do not think gays can have siblings . . . Wow, I have encountered a lot of forms of homophobia, but that is a first. --Bertrc (talk) 02:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Settle down Bertie! I can't be homophobic as I am a big nelly queen myself. --MtDPinko Scum 02:07, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
That didn't stop Larry Craig, Mark Foley or Rush Limbaugh. --Bertrc (talk) 02:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
You left out the Fabulously Reverend Ted Haggard. ;) --MtDPinko Scum 02:16, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] so...

whats your goal here?--il'Dictator Mikal (talk) 22:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ha! Ask vague questions much? It depends what you mean by "here". If you mean rationalwiki, then my goal is to have fun and to have discussions where I am not limitted to the neutral, non-snarky tone of wikipedia. If you mean "the problem of evil" then my present goal is to make the Christianity section less . . . lousy, I guess. Why? What are you thinking? What are your thoughts? --Bertrc (talk) 02:28, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Just curious. And im whatever i feel like being at that moment. --il'Dictator Mikal (talk) 22:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
So what do you feel like being at the moment? --Bertrc (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] GtsfrStrl

GoatsforSterile.svg sterileGoatsforSterile.svgno new information 05:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

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