User talk:GrantC

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[edit] Hameroff and Penrose at it again

So this is a (somewhat) new thing from them. They're hyping a few new studies:

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2014/01/16/discovery.quantum.vibrations.microtubules.corroborates.theory.consciousness

http://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-journals/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness

What say you? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 05:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

If anything, I find myself more boggled. Their new formulation seems to (for some reason) rely on general relativity having an effect on quantum mechanics. While I'm sure there does exist some unified theory that manages to bridge both fields, I have no idea why it should be necessary for consciousness. Moreover, the existence of warm quantum vibrations doesn't really mean much. On its own, this means little, since quantum effects don't actually require low temperatures to be seen in macroscopic objects (read: neutron stars). I'm not sure that their assumption that these vibrations can be used to generate qubits actually holds much truth to it. - Grant (talk) 13:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Just as well, the claims about microtubules still don't make sense because neurons are not the only cells with microtubules in them. So consciousness would not have anything to do with the nervous system then. But some of the stuff they cite is interesting, like the claims about the connection of quantum effects to photosynthesis. Are these legit or just inflated claims?
But, on another note, I am loving the zeal: "Orch OR is the most rigorous, comprehensive and successfully-tested theory of consciousness ever put forth. From a practical standpoint, treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions." I can't even.... Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I've always found the microtubules connection to be dubious. It's not enough for something to display quantum effects for it to be any kind of quantum computational device. Of course, Orch OR keeps jumping around, unable to decide whether consciousness requires a full-fledged quantum computer in the brain, or just some quantum effects. Some microtubules experiencing resonance effects does not a quantum computer make. I wouldn't be surprised if those claims were legitimate, as quantum mechanics effectively underpins all of reality. If you want to get pedantic, everything other than gravity is directly explained by quantum mechanics and its extension to macroscopic objects. To say more about the photosynthesis case directly, I would have to look at the specific paper in question, but H&P don't cite it directly in their summary (or even mention the authors), and I don't feel like wading through their crap to find it.
Zeal is something these guys seem to have a lot of. Given that only six of their twenty predictions have been proven, and whether the rest have been refuted is certainly a matter of debate, I would be far from considering this rigorous, comprehensive, or successfully-tested. Let's not even think about what "treating" brain microtubule vibrations would entail. We can't even control more than a few qubits under ideal conditions. "I can't even..." indeed. - Grant (talk) 20:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I would like to include some of this on the quantum consciousness page, but I'm afraid my knowledge of the physics is not even rudimentary.
I noticed another thing that is definitely not helping their case: Citations to Deepak Chopra and Dean Radin. Yikes! Granted, the citation to Chopra is just for a description of dualism, but why not cite an actual philosopher or intellectual historian on that? And then Chopra is given space to respond! What were the editors of Physics of Life Views thinking? This really looks like shit-stirring along the lines of what Journal of Personality and Social Psychology pulled a while back with the Darryl Bem parapsychology stuff. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Also, here is one of the photosynthesis studies if you wanted: [1], [2] Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, now that H&P are investing more time in this, it seems that it would be worth putting more of this in our article. I'm just not sure how best to handle the rebuttals at the moment, as most physics journals are stuck behind paywalls and blogs just don't really cut it when it comes to debunking questionable physics. Either way, I would be happy to help with the physics side of things.
I'm not surprised about the cites to Chopra, or that he wrote one of the responses. Elsevier has a dubious reputation, and Physics Life Reviews is hardly a top tier journal. It has an impact factor of 7.2 while Nature has an impact factor of over 50. I don't know enough about it to say that it's a fringe journal, but it certainly seems like it might be.
Thanks for the link to that paper. Later today I'll give it a read over and post my thoughts here. - Grant (talk) 14:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't think there is any rule against using gated sources in articles. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:19, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Well no, but it would be preferable to find reviews in open access journals so that those without journal subscriptions can read them. Paywalls are never ideal. - Grant (talk) 23:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Sometimes that's the best you can do though. I try to put a link to a press release along with the article if it's paywalled. Unfortunately, this is not always an option, because we know about the reliability of press releases... :/ Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Indeed; Even if press releases were reliable, I doubt I would find one for something as inconsequential as a review. I suppose it will have to be paywalls! Oh well; c'est la vie. - Grant (talk) 01:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Debating time

Right, um, I heard you like debating. I'm pretty bored. Any subjects regarding which your views may differ from mine? DØØM MĖSSIÅH Deserved doom shall be unto youDolan.png 06:39, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I like discussion, but I don't really see much point in contrived discussion. If such a thing happens naturally, that's fine, but I don't really debate or discuss just for the sake of doing so. - Grant (talk) 22:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I was just bored and in need of someone to talk to. MĖSSIÅH ØF DØØM Masquerading solemn beautyDolan.png 07:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
I think contrived discussion is great - It's ridiculous not to engage in contrived discussion. I demand you put forward your case against contrived discussion and I will rebut forthwith! Tielec01 (talk) 07:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh dear. Is this going to turn into a holistic discussion about contrived discussion? I don't really know what to think about this... - Grant (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, Tielec, I believe that contrived discussion is inferior to spontaneous discussion as it is inherently forced, unnatural and, to an extent, dishonest. As such, it is difficult to fully engage in and continue. To use this discussion as an example, I actually really have no idea what the fuck to say next, whereas, if this discussion had arisen spontaneously, I would likely have very many responses and manners in which to continue this exchange. In summary, contrived discussions such as this are pretty shit, and we should stop right now. DØØM MĖSSIÅH Unite with thy oracleDolan.png 03:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] You're the alternative

OK, to avoid participating in further unnecessary unproductive controversy, I'm stopping by here instead, a place of calm discussion. How's it going? Great! OK, thanks, see ya later. MarmotHead (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Heh, another BoN got you down? Perhaps the one on the Race article? I've been on-and-off following that one for a bit now. There's just no convincing some people, it seems! - Grant (talk) 17:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm transparent it seems! I should avoid the statistical-topic bait, I guess. MarmotHead (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
There are some topics that seem to exclusively attract people who are dead set on their positions and only wish to cause trouble. I imagine topics like race are quite important (for very wrong reasons) to some people. - Grant (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations!

Congratulations on your degree! Now your credentials more closely match your proven ability. What next? More grad school? The real world? MarmotHead (talk) 15:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Why thank you! Technically it was conferred in June, but I entirely forgot to update my user page here. I would do more grad school if an appealing position were shoved in my face, but my experience with my MSc. was unpleasant enough that I certainly don't plan to go seeking out more grad school. It will likely be the real world for me, but now I have to figure out exactly what I want to do... - Grant (talk) 18:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
If you ever get truly desperate for a job, remember that right-wing think tanks will throw money at any scientist willing to debunk global warming. Or if you want to remain independent, write a pop-science book explaining how your pet theory explains everything, and get rich off the speaking gigs that follow. Star of David.png Radioactive Misanthrope 18:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
You make a good point. All I have to do is abandon all pretenses of following any moral or ethical code, and I'll be set for life! Then again, many of the jobs suitable for someone with my degree are in finance, so I guess I might end up selling my soul either way. - Grant (talk) 22:02, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
In finance? Do the sub-atomic probabilities become price-of-next-trade probabilities? Quantum finance? MarmotHead (talk) 15:20, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Schrodinger's Stock Ticker: all stocks exist in a superposition of both rising and falling value. Upon buying/selling, the stock collapses to a single value and you wonder why you're paying your broker a .5% management fee. Star of David.png Radioactive Misanthrope 15:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
More like Brownian motion, analyzed with a Wiener model. Pile up enough filthy lucre, and the sting of being called a quant weenie won't smart so much. Alec Sanderson (talk) 15:55, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Now there's some terminology that brings out my inner giggly adolescent: "Brownian ... Wiener ... hehehe". Unlike physicists/quants, I never get enough data to legitimately use those terms ... sigh. MarmotHead (talk) 16:05, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but those words are reserved for the cool physicists in the room ;). Heh, but no, I wouldn't be doing anything related to quantum mechanics in finance. Banks just like people who think like scientists and have spent time modelling things using computers. - Grant (talk) 18:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
...which is where they get their quantitative analysts (quants) which has nothing to do with quantum anything. Alec Sanderson (talk) 22:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I know. I probably should have specified that I was responding to MarmotHead and Stabby above. I've spent enough time in research to know that nobody refers to quantum anything as "quants." I'm just usually very late in responding to jokes... :( - Grant (talk) 22:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
As for the "selling my soul" part, quantum mechanics is my passion. Moving into a job where I would be doing anything else definitely seems like a betrayal of everything I've worked towards over the last seven years. Such is life, I suppose. - Grant (talk) 22:32, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Living in hope, I held onto the belief that you, Grant, did know. I didn't know if others in the room were as astute as your esteemed self. If I'm not prying, what possible paths forward would let you pursue your passion without betrayal? Alec Sanderson (talk) 22:42, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Well I'm fairly bad at communicating in this kind of format, and usually say things that don't make sense. They do in my head, but it never works out that way when I press the "Save page" button...
The issue is that I always wanted to continue on to my Ph.D. and continue to do research. Unfortunately, a falling-out with my MSc. supervisor barely allowed me to scrape by with any degree, and effectively scuttled my chances of moving forward at all in research. In that sense, when I refer to doing financial work as a "betrayal," I more or less mean that any job I can get with my degree will necessitate doing something that runs contrary to my actual goals and dreams, which are now firmly shot. - Grant (talk) 22:47, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
OUch. Sorry to see that. The weather in Palo Alto is nice, but I don't know about the academic climate... Is the community so close-knit that the supervisor's attitude will follow you around? Feel free to not answer if it would be TMI. Alec Sanderson (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
It's more that the way things spooled out doesn't really give any other potential supervisor a reason to take me on as a student. I jumped from project to project so rapidly that I have very little solid research to show for it, and I certainly haven't published any papers. While my grades are good, they certainly aren't "holy shit, find this man a supervisor" good, and frankly most institutions care little about grades anyways. Finally, I'm doubtful I could find the number of reference letters required to be accepted to any decent institutions, given that my MSc. supervisor will almost certainly not provide one for me. Mostly it comes down to a perfect storm of issues that make it unlikely I could find a position. - Grant (talk) 23:07, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry to hear that. I assume you cannot or will not do a second MSc under a hopefully more agreeable supervisor for various reasons? Anyways, I hope you find something good. Nullahnung (talk) 00:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately that's not really possible. I have my MSc. already, and there are no "redos," so to speak. - Grant (talk) 05:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

This sounds juicy, what happened with your supervisor? During my masters, a while back now, I published a paper that pissed off a large commercial sector that was, in part, funding my research. It kind of exposed a common belief in the industry as a myth. Consequently my supervisor doubled down and backed me to the hilt - to this day we are close friends and on occasion we do research in my organisation together. Needless to say I had sabotaged any chance of working in the field where I conducted my research - but it all worked out fine in retrospect (although at the time I was nervous). Tielec01 (talk) 00:12, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

More or less, it was a combination of assigning me research projects that couldn't possibly be solved, even with help from other knowledgeable post-docs and graduate students in the group, and an expectation on his part that I should have known far more than I did for my level of education. I guess the previous institution he worked at had a much more specific program than my alma mater did, as he expected me to know details about processes that I had never heard of before. I learned a lot in an attempt to "catch up," but it was too little, too late. - Grant (talk) 05:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
The classic supervisor that expects everyone to be as knowledgeable as them, regardless of whether they are a newly graduated student or not. I had friends who had poor relationships with their supervisors and it destroyed their whole masters experience. On the other hand most of those friends are now in the commercial sphere earning ridiculous coin; as opposed to eating baked beans while earning a doctorate so, you know, swings and roundabouts. There is always the option to return for a doctorate after a few years, obviously I'm not sure how this works where you are from (or in physics) but I'm yet to meet the supervisor that would turn down a self-funded student who is keen to act as an unpaid research assistant. Tielec01 (talk) 07:10, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
That more or less sums it up. My experience was ruined as a result, and I feel as though my progression into a Ph.D. is hampered enough to make going back now a significant problem. While it is also true in physics that my current degree is worth far more in the commercial sphere than further research would be (I made more as a MSc. student than I would make as a Ph.D. student because my former supervisor had very significant funding), it's also not something I've ever wanted to do. As you point out, however, going back effectively requires me to be self-funded, which means I need at least a few years of income before I can justify that. Ah well, I have little choice at this point. - Grant (talk) 07:23, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
To be optimistic (not my usual mode), the opportunity to pursue a PhD won't get worse, so, if at any time you change your mind, it'll be there. It does suck that your student experience was so scarring. I've seen that happen from the supervisor side, too, and it just seems like such a waste of an opportunity. One of my students bounced from project to project because the projects just weren't well structured. The same thing can and often does happen after getting the PhD, but with much less consequence (I'm looking in the mirror now).MarmotHead (talk) 16:48, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Indeed; I feel worse about the fact that I now need to work in the private sector instead of pursuing the research I initially wanted to (and still want to) pursue. From a student's perspective, it's certainly scarring. Jumping from project to project left me feeling like I didn't really accomplish anything, and the acrimonious break with my supervisor added an air to finality with that. I know quite a few post-docs and professors who had similar things happen, but they just moved to new supervisors trivially (in the case of the post-docs, since post-docs are actually valuable), or secured funding for new projects (in the case of the professors). It certainly does seem a bit easier to deal with once one has secured a Ph.D. - Grant (talk) 17:18, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination

You have been nominated for that thing. DØØM MĖSSIÅH Solemn strikes the funeral chimeDolan.png 07:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the nomination, but I'm afraid I have too much on my plate right now. Even though it's not a massive commitment, it's still more than I feel I can take on right now. - Grant (talk) 08:09, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
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