User talk:Smerdis of Tlön
Cool username! Is it a reference to that Borges story? Wehpudicabok [話] [変] 08:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- It is. I am Ihcoyc on Wikipedia, but have called myself Smerdis of Tlön there for a long time. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 02:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
[edit] "Don't tell me we have to humor this one too"
"Too"? Who else are we having to humor then? SophieWilder
17:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- I just don't want to have to add another stripe to the rainbow of body identity subcultures, or experience the resulting 'awareness campaign' of moral aggression. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 19:23, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Sysop
Sysop. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
16:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
[edit] "Soultrean" and "Koro"
Neither of those pages are linked from anywhere except your user page: Two things. 1. Can you find relevant pages to link to them and 2. Could you not make links to new pages you create on your user page until those pages are linked from somewhere in the mainspace, or else they won't show up as "lonely pages" on the relevant report. Thanks! PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
20:36, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Gender again
I wrote an essay partially as a counterargument to the part of yours with which I disagreed earlier. I'd like your opinion. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] 23:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Evo psych derail
The idea that resistance to evo psych is mostly political is a canard thrown out by types like Buss and Pinker to avoid having to answer to legitimate critics. First, we have to distinguish what, exactly, "evo psych" is. Most of the attention has been focused on what Buller has called "EP" (as opposed to "lower-case ep"), or the Santa Barbara school, which is a specific research program entailing certain assumptions an empirical results. Many evolutionary psychologists themselves argue that EP is partially or totally flawed. I'd start with the Buller book -- Adapting Minds -- or the Stanford Encyclopedia article for a dense and stuffy, but thorough overview. Both are decidedly non-political in nature. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:31, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
- Msybe. The parts of evo psych that I've found most interesting are the ones that deal with the evolution of moral sentiments and the heritability of a number of personality traits. The weaknesses here are mostly in the 'psych' part; our ability to measure personality traits and moral impulses aren't all that sharp. Here, at least, the evidence is convincing for modularity; there does seem to be a "disgust" routine, a "jealousy" routine, an "unfair" routine, and an "us vs. them" routine. There is also evidence suggesting that several of these traits are heritable, tested on twins the usual way. It's also been shown that parents don't really shape their children's moral outlook all that much. Morality is something they absorb like language, and peers soon outweigh parents in matters of morality even as they outweigh them in matters of language.
- But if any part of human brains and behaviors is shaped by evolution, sex and mating would be those parts. The idea of "sexual objectification" is yet another reflection of the facts that sperms are plentiful and cheap while eggs are expensive. Males are disposable drones; females are precious vessels of life. His ideal reproductive strategy looks like a dandelion's; Hers looks like a human's. So He's inclined to spend his seed and his substance on other women, and She's predisposed to mind that very much. And "sexual objectification", like all other products of human reasoning, is Her attempt to make coherent and rationalize Her feelings for public consumption. The underlying dynamic is immune to mere argument, so "sexual objectification" is going to be an idea with legs. I still don't think we have to accept it at face value. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 03:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that there's any controversy over the idea that, say, basic emotions have biological components. Modularity is another thing, but that is difficult to debate because so many different definitions of modularity have been proposed. Certain conceptions of modularity are pretty reasonable. EPists, though, take this to ridiculous extents by positing modules for just about everything, reaching phrenological heights.
- As for "men just wanna spread their seed," that's a cartoonish view of parental investment. Parental investment is not identical to gamete production. Indiscriminately having offspring may not be optimal for males, especially in humans where babies require massive amounts of investment. Female promiscuity may also be adaptive in certain cases, e.g. in creating paternity uncertainty to avoid abuse of offspring by males. As for whether ideas about parental investment as developed by Bateman, and later Trivers, can be applied to humans in any straightforward manner, the evidence appears to be pointing in the direction of "no." ([1]) In fact, even Bateman's original experiments on fruit flies have recently been called into question. (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/06/06/1207851109.abstract) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 07:03, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
- Finally, even if all the above is invalid, you're still just making a long-winded appeal to nature. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Essay:English spelling reform
This is great, and should basically be a mainspace article - David Gerard (talk) 07:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- A bit late to the scene, aren't we? Smerdis and I have been arguing that point for a while now, with little success. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] 07:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Race
Your viewpoint on race is that is indeed a biological construct, right? It really is because of left-creationism and their ideas of human equality and human exceptionalism that makes them say otherwise, would you agree? — Unsigned, by: 70.29.27.161 / talk / contribs
- No. Not even sure that I'd use the phrase "biological construct", but race really is a social construction, born of a naive or superficial analysis of human genetic differences like skin and hair color. These differences themselves are hereditary, of course, but they only scratch the surface of human genetic diversity. Race is purely a matter of social categorization. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 21:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Mop and bucket stuff...
Hey: when replying to an unsigned comment, please put the "unsigned" template on said comment. Thanks. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
15:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
[edit] "the feminist agenda is reparative therapy for all men."
That is the stupidest thing I have seen a human being write this year. And I read Conservapedia. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
16:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I see feminism as trying to force unworkable changes in the way human male minds work and relate. It's doomed to failure and will not increase the stock of human happiness. Feminism, or at least the flavors I'm talking about, reproduces the mistake of reparative therapy exactly: it's an attempt to alter the sexuality of specific people by ideology and argumemt. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 17:28, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- That is so ludicrous ~I can't take it seriously. From now on I'll just wave your lunacy in your face whenever you comment. SophieWilder
17:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Smerdis, do you realise that other people can read what you write here? You should be fucking embarrassed. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
17:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- It would appear that I've touched on something sacred here. I'm told I'm not only wrong, but embarrassingly so, by comparing two agitations with quite similar goals. And I don't even have an issue with feminism to the extent that it's about women. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 17:54, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Smerdis, do you realise that other people can read what you write here? You should be fucking embarrassed. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
- "I see feminism as trying to force unworkable changes in the way human male minds work and relate."
- Only because you have a warped view of how the mind works and what feminism is. Christ Alfuckingmighty, you sound so much like Lovecrafty.
- " It's doomed to failure and will not increase the stock of human happiness."
- Yes, yes, we know you think feminism will fail and women will go back to their proper place of Kinder, Küche, und Kirche. Except it has already made many women happy. The only unhappiness I see from feminism is on the side of the MRAs...which I've now identified you as one of. What's your particular preference? A Voice For Men? Or are you one of the Neo-Reactionaries? C'mon. 'Fess up.— Unsigned, by: Castaigne / talk / contribs
- No, none of those. I'm just an aging Sixties radical wannabe who continues to take freedom of expression, including freedom of sexual expression, very seriously. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 16:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, Christ, return of the supposed 1960s radical for whom time passed by. Newsflash: If you are adhering to "radical" movements and ideals that existed before I was born, you need to stop, upgrade your thinking to modern standards, and move the fuck on. I'm not going to bother with someone who is stuck in the last century. Even my hidebound conservative Catholic parents are more advanced in thought than you.
- Your ideas of freedom of expression are over 50 years obsolete. Your ideas of freedom of sexual expression are over 50 years obsolete. Upgrade the obsolete, or be deleted.
- Because until you do, you're really no different than an aging MRA. --Castaigne (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- No, none of those. I'm just an aging Sixties radical wannabe who continues to take freedom of expression, including freedom of sexual expression, very seriously. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 16:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- That is so ludicrous ~I can't take it seriously. From now on I'll just wave your lunacy in your face whenever you comment. SophieWilder
It's not that your understanding of feminism is "not only wrong," it's not even wrong. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
18:14, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm still not seeing how. What's the difference between trying to "fix" gays so that they suppress same-sex desires, and trying to "fix" heterosexual men the same way? - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I see what Smerdis is saying here as not too far off the mark. Foster, your response seems overly harsh to me, even borderline dickish. A supporting anecdote comes from my experience in a thriving tech company some time ago, with a fair mix of women working as hardware engineers, programmers, and technicians, coming from a variety of American, European (including Russian), and Asian (both east and south) cultures. On the whole, they were a well socialized crew, free from excess gender-related tension. If I had to generalize, I'd say that the white-bread American females were the ones most liable to consider male human behavior as something requiring correction. Alec Sanderson (talk) 18:40, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
[edit] The false equivalence you are making
Reparative therapy seeks to change an individual's desire; what his or her brain tells them that they want. Feminist critiques of rape culture seek to change what people do with their desires. in the world of reparative therapy, it's not okay that you want to have sex with men. That's where the problem is, and they believe they can re-wire your desire. They can't. In the world of feminist critique, it's okay that I want to have sex with women. It's not okay that I demand it, or force the issue, or use any power that I have to get it, or to objectify another human being in the name of it. I can't control that I want women the way that you want men, but I can, and must, control what I do with that. And you're not seeing the difference. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
21:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Something for you to consider.
If race is a social construct, why not gender? And, if gender is a social construct, a movement designed to undo the inequalities enforced by that construct is something one ought to support. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
19:48, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, that's an excellent point; in this context race and sex/gender are significantly different. Race has no biological significance at all. (The main reason The Bell Curve was obviously talking out of its ass was its neglect of evolutionary explanations: the thesis amounts to a claim that intelligence is less adaptive for some human populations than others.) Sex profoundly changes human bodies and metabolisms; there are male and female brains, hell, there are male and female livers. Sex plays a key role in human reproduction. (snicker.) I'd expect biology to have a huge impact here, psychologically as well as physically.
- I would indeed support a movement designed to undo the inequalities, frustrations, and conflicts enforced by biology. Understanding that biology is behind much of that stuff means that expectations of what might be achieved here ought to be tempered towards the reasonable. Part of the way forward for me is that we should come to understand that sniping at the content of each other's inner lives isn't helping. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 22:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Sex and gender are significantly different; different from each other, just as "skin colour/hair texture/common facial features" and "race" are different from each other; in each case, the latter is a set of arbitrary social roles/expectations/limitations placed on an individual because of the latter. Expectations of what might be achieved here should be tempered towards the reasonable. It is reasonable to expect that I do not let my biological urge to have sex with women dictate my daily interactions with women, that I do not, for instance, approach strange women late at night in a confined space (sorry to harp on this, but it's still the only case that you brought up; give me better material and I'll work with that) and invite them to come into a room with a bed in it. It is reasonable to expect people to question whether or not a billions-of-dollars-a-year industry that profits from transforming half of humanity into nothing more that empty receptacles for sexual desires is a positive step forward for humanity. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
22:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- The question is where to demarcate the line between sex and gender, then. For instance, I would assign to the 'sex' side such generally human universal features as the male role in communal violence and community defense, the female role in child rearing, the different structures of male-focused and female-focused social organizations, and, of course, the fact that the male usually takes the initiative in open courtship. These assignments are not arbitrary. The logic of all of these universals flows out of facts like sperms are metabolically cheap while pregnancy is metabolically very costly, and that humans are a high-investment, slow-breeding species; these human universals are sex, not gender. Culture will of course intersect with many of these things and determine what their local expression looks like. All of our fellow primates have a sexual division of labor; it would be really weird if we didn't. No effort is required to enforce them; people free from cultural compulsion will naturally move towards the roles they were made to fill.
- Please, let's step back a bit further. What does your vision of the good society entail? I want one where people get along; one where cultural diversity adds color and flavor rather than tension. One where people are able to run their lives and seek their pleasures without their neighbor's attention or disapproval. Where straights, gays, the transgendered and everybody else can arrange their sexual lives as they please, with no more drama than those things always bring. One where people mind their own business. I doubt that your utopia differs strongly from mine, though we may differ widely on how to get there.
- So how do we move closer to an ideal? My recipe calls for calming moral dudgeon and diminishing social friction, by cultivating an ethos that expects little of people and that encourages tolerance and forgiveness of human weakness. This is why I think that accusing your neighbors of "transforming half of humanity into nothing more that empty receptacles for sexual desires" is a hostile caricature of some of your neighbor's inner lives. That is a weirdly puritanical idea, one that ultimately goes back to the odd ideas of some Christian denominations about sex and the nuclear family. It is a sister of the argument that since sex is for procreation, using birth control turns it into mutual masturbation. Walk a mile in the shoes of the lonely guy who buys them. I'd even suggest that the logic of the "privilege" doctrine, by my understanding of it, suggests reasons why you might want to reconsider that. (Were it meant to apply even-handedly, as we know it was not.) Why do people need to pick on each other this way? What does it achieve? - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:47, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'll answer part of this. I have no vision of a "good" society insofar as I do not recognize the existence of "good" outside of a personal concept thereof. I do not care whether people get along or have tension due to cultural differences, so long as they follow the law. I am not required to, and do not care to "like" everyone. I do not care if a person is disapproved of by their neighbor; so long as it is kept within legal boundaries, it is not my business. However, that does not make them immune from the social consequences of their choice. There will never be a society without drama; there will never be a society where people mind their own business. And if there is, I can almost guarantee it will be totalitarian in nature and derived from fear.
- It's essentially comes down to you regarding "freedom" and "absolute tolerance, including tolerance of the intolerant" as a definite Good. I view them as entirely value-neutral. The freedom to murder someone and feast on their innards is still freedom. Doubt you'd call it good. --Castaigne (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Sex and gender are significantly different; different from each other, just as "skin colour/hair texture/common facial features" and "race" are different from each other; in each case, the latter is a set of arbitrary social roles/expectations/limitations placed on an individual because of the latter. Expectations of what might be achieved here should be tempered towards the reasonable. It is reasonable to expect that I do not let my biological urge to have sex with women dictate my daily interactions with women, that I do not, for instance, approach strange women late at night in a confined space (sorry to harp on this, but it's still the only case that you brought up; give me better material and I'll work with that) and invite them to come into a room with a bed in it. It is reasonable to expect people to question whether or not a billions-of-dollars-a-year industry that profits from transforming half of humanity into nothing more that empty receptacles for sexual desires is a positive step forward for humanity. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
[edit] Wikipedia
"We do not generally link to Wikipedia. If an article falls within our mission statements then we prefer to write it and expand it ourselves from our own point of view. If we need additional references we usually get our own rather than link to WP.". That article was a link-farm. Either explain the stuff properly, or, if you can't, wonder about missionality. Thanks. PowderSmokeAndLeather: Say something once, why say it again?.
16:35, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- This is largely a personal crusade for you - David Gerard (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- Okay. PowderSmokeAndLeather (talk) 16:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, that comes off way snippier than I thought I was being. I don't disagree that excess Wikipedia links are bad writing, but they do the basic "this is what it is" job better than we do, so swinging them for background is fine IMO. Basically, we can't legislate good writing, but Smerdis is a good writer. I'd disagree that Wikipedia links necessarily mean "off-mission article". Perhaps this is a Saloon Bar discussion (if not a Dive Bar one) - David Gerard (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
- FWIW, I thought the article needed to introduce some basic concepts of sociolinguistics, and I thought that writing a textbook into the article would be even less topical. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] "Speak White" (I believe yo mentioned the phrase recently...)
- Speak white
- il est si beau de vous entendre
- parler de Paradise Lost
- ou du profil gracieux et anonyme qui tremble dans les sonnets de Shakespeare
- nous sommes un peuple inculte et bègue
- mais ne sommes pas sourds au génie d'une langue
- parlez avec l'accent de Milton et Byron et Shelley et Keats
- speak white
- et pardonnez-nous de n'avoir pour réponse
- que les chants rauques de nos ancêtres
- et le chagrin de Nelligan
- speak white
- parlez de choses et d'autres
- parlez-nous de la Grande Charte
- ou du monument à Lincoln
- du charme gris de la Tamise
- de l'eau rose du Potomac
- parlez-nous de vos traditions
- nous sommes un peuple peu brillant
- mais fort capable d'apprécier
- toute l'importance des crumpets
- ou du Boston Tea Party
- mais quand vous really speak white
- quand vous get down to brass tacks
- pour parler du gracious living
- et parler du standard de vie
- et de la Grande Société
- un peu plus fort alors speak white
- haussez vos voix de contremaîtres
- nous sommes un peu durs d'oreille
- nous vivons trop près des machines
- et n'entendons que notre souffle au-dessus des outils
- speak white and loud
- qu'on vous entende
- de Saint-Henri à Saint-Domingue
- oui quelle admirable langue
- pour embaucher
- donner des ordres
- fixer l'heure de la mort à l'ouvrage
- et de la pause qui rafraîchit
et ravigote le dollar
- speak white
- tell us that God is a great big shot
- and that we're paid to trust him
- speak white
- parlez-nous production profits et pourcentages
- speak white
- c'est une langue riche
- pour acheter
- mais pour se vendre
- mais pour se vendre à perte d'âme
- mais pour se vendre
- ah !
- speak white
- big deal
- mais pour vous dire
- l'éternité d'un jour de grève
- pour raconter
- une vie de peuple-concierge
- mais pour rentrer chez nous le soir
- à l'heure où le soleil s'en vient crever au-dessus des ruelles
- mais pour vous dire oui que le soleil se couche oui
- chaque jour de nos vies à l'est de vos empires
- rien ne vaut une langue à jurons
- notre parlure pas très propre
- tachée de cambouis et d'huile
- speak white
- soyez à l'aise dans vos mots
- nous sommes un peuple rancunier
- mais ne reprochons à personne
- d'avoir le monopole
- de la correction de langage
- dans la langue douce de Shakespeare
- avec l'accent de Longfellow
- parlez un français pur et atrocement blanc
- comme au Viêt-Nam au Congo
- parlez un allemand impeccable
- une étoile jaune entre les dents
- parlez russe parlez rappel à l'ordre parlez répression
- speak white
- c'est une langue universelle
- nous sommes nés pour la comprendre
- avec ses mots lacrymogènes
- avec ses mots matraques
- speak white
- tell us again about Freedom and Democracy
- nous savons que liberté est un mot noir
- comme la misère est nègre
- et comme le sang se mêle à la poussière des rues d'Alger ou de Little Rock
- speak white
- de Westminster à Washington relayez-vous
- speak white comme à Wall Street
- white comme à Watts
- be civilized
- et comprenez notre parler de circonstance
- quand vous nous demandez poliment
- how do you do
- et nous entendez vous répondre
- we're doing all right
- we're doing fine
- we
- are not alone
- nous savons
- que nous ne sommes pas seuls.
--Michele Lalonde PowderSmokeAndLeather (talk) 02:57, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
[edit] "Everyone is Racist" redirect
I don't think that they are really the same- in one, the speaker attempts to neutralise perceptions of their prejudice by stating that said prejudice is not held by them. In the other one, the person says, basically, "yeah, I'm prejudiced, but since 'everyone' is prejudiced, it's totally cool and you're not allowed to criticise me". In other words, the first is like saying "I am not! *grumpy spoilt child foot stomp*", while the second is basically saying "bish dusitlukliekIgivafuk". MESSIAH OF DOOM Impurity is the secret
06:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- I wasn't sure whether they were exactly the same thing, but they seemed relatively similar. That's why I didn't just remove it from the list, and added a note pointing out the stopgap. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:45, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Multiculturalism
Hello Smerdis, I noticed your acid test of multiculturalism is cockfighting tag and I was wondering if there was any reason why a person who supported multiculturalism couldn't pick and choose which bits of other cultures they support? Just wondering if there is some well-constructed argument against this position that Iwasn't aware of. BTW surely genital mutilation or even dog fighting is a better acid test? Tielec01 (talk) 05:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Cockfighting works a bit better than those, if only because it has such deep historical roots and is present in a wide variety of canonical multicultures: African, South and East Asian, Pacific islander, Native American, and so forth. Also, unlike genital mutilation, cockfighting is only about chickens. If you truly don't want to oppress your neighbors over cultural differences, you swallow your "privileged" whitebread squeamishness and favor the legalization of cockfighting. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- You've certainly beat the stuffing out of that multiculturalist, well done! Now you'll have to stuff it back in for next time - David Gerard (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- But if I can say genital mutilation is not ok, why can't I say cock-fighting is not ok? Is it the hypocrisy of not allowing cock-fighting and still eating chicken, or something? Is it because a chicken is just a chicken (what does that mean?) Tielec01 (talk) 00:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Cultures are not discrete clearly demarcatable entities. As such multiculturalism should only be taken in the sense that Tielec suggested. Be accepting of whatever you see that you could accept on the grounds that it doesn't seem to go against your values significantly, but shun what you must. That's how I interpret my own multiculturalism anyways. Nullahnung (talk) 01:13, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe by multiculturalism Smerdis really means Moral Relativism (or Cultural Relativism as it is popularly mis-used)? Tielec01 (talk) 01:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- It's simpler than that. I think it's a fairly easily established historical fact that cockfighting is an ancient, deep-rooted, traditional pastime among many different peoples, widespread everywhere except the Disneyfied West. I don't think that misguided empathy for chickens is an important enough value to justify trying to take something that basic away from other people, especially given the ways we use chickens ourselves. I don't have a problem with factory farms or the chicken industry either; I just don't feel any attachment or empathy towards the chickens that could make me care. I am forced to conclude that, at least for myself, supporting bans on cockfighting would be hypocritical. I think that's true at least of everybody in contemporary society who, like myself, doesn't have issues with the way we treat chickens generally; and that having issues with our treatment of chickens is rather silly.
- I am forced to conclude, with some reluctance, that the moral case for legal cockfighting is much stronger than the case against. Laws against it are expressions of squeamish and weak-minded cultural prejudice. If you truly wish a diverse society in which people are able to pursue their cultural identities as they see fit, you ought to be in favor of legalizing cockfighting. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:02, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I see, it's your acid test, but may not apply to anyone else depending on the assumptions that they bring to the debate. I don't think this is a particularly strong argument against multiculturalism; except perhaps for you personally. Tielec01 (talk) 04:11, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'm not using this as an argument against multiculturalism. I simply think that making criminals of your neighbors requires a lot more convincing case than any case I've seen made against cockfighting. I have no personal stake in it -- it isn't part of my culture, and I've no wish to attend one -- but I do think the rootedness of the sport is disregarded through ignorance, and the case against it reeks of legislating issues of taste and cultural bigotry. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I would have thought there are better examples than this for a general protest against the dismissal of other cultures and tastes. In fact the userbox makes it look like you are saying the exact opposite of what you wrote above... (If you are in favour of multiculturalism then you are in favour of barbaric cock-fighting. You aren't in favour of cock-fighting, therefore you shouldn't be in favour of multiculturalism) Tielec01 (talk) 04:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- FWIW, I'm not using this as an argument against multiculturalism. I simply think that making criminals of your neighbors requires a lot more convincing case than any case I've seen made against cockfighting. I have no personal stake in it -- it isn't part of my culture, and I've no wish to attend one -- but I do think the rootedness of the sport is disregarded through ignorance, and the case against it reeks of legislating issues of taste and cultural bigotry. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I see, it's your acid test, but may not apply to anyone else depending on the assumptions that they bring to the debate. I don't think this is a particularly strong argument against multiculturalism; except perhaps for you personally. Tielec01 (talk) 04:11, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe by multiculturalism Smerdis really means Moral Relativism (or Cultural Relativism as it is popularly mis-used)? Tielec01 (talk) 01:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Cultures are not discrete clearly demarcatable entities. As such multiculturalism should only be taken in the sense that Tielec suggested. Be accepting of whatever you see that you could accept on the grounds that it doesn't seem to go against your values significantly, but shun what you must. That's how I interpret my own multiculturalism anyways. Nullahnung (talk) 01:13, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- But if I can say genital mutilation is not ok, why can't I say cock-fighting is not ok? Is it the hypocrisy of not allowing cock-fighting and still eating chicken, or something? Is it because a chicken is just a chicken (what does that mean?) Tielec01 (talk) 00:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- You've certainly beat the stuffing out of that multiculturalist, well done! Now you'll have to stuff it back in for next time - David Gerard (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I see it rather as an object lesson in why mortifying the moral instincts is important and necessary for a genuinely tolerant society. In the claim that cockfighting is "barbaric", what I see mostly is the sheltered worldview of people who hire others to slaughter their chickens out of sight. In my opinion, these concerns don't carry enough weight to justify jailing your neighbors over a traditional pastime. So I do think there is a conflict between genuine multiculturalism and a desire to ban cockfighting. More importantly, examining the desire to ban cockfighting sheds light on the extremely close relationship between bigotry and moralism; here, as much as in anti-gay activism, there doesn't seem to be much difference. The human mind is clever enough to think up a "moral" reason, a high and holy principle, for any reason they have to discriminate against their neighbors. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see any bigotry in banning cock fighting. There is just as much tradition of cock fighting, bear and badger baiting, and other such blood sports in the west, but we still banned them. Even more recently we have banned hare coursing and fox hunting, much to the chagrin not of any ethnic minorities but chinless toffs, and there seems to some, illegal, dog fighting going on about the place. Any sport that requires for your enjoyment not just a death, but a drawn out terrifying and painful ordeal of a death IS barbaric. I'd say the same for hunting, but at least that has some population control benefits. I say this as someone who has worked in a chicken factory killing, boning and skinning the beasts, so I'm not that sheltered from the process. There is no conflict between multiculturalism and banning cockfighting because it has never been an either\or situation. It has never meant we must accept everything no matter how egregious of a particular group, its always been more compromise a more give and take. Seems to work pretty well in london AMassiveGay (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sure you've thoroughly convinced yourself with your demolition of your strawman, but would have hoped you'd be a little less incurious as to its failure to convince others - David Gerard (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I think people have expressed themselves clearly enough. Some of my neighbors are cruel barbarians, it seems, taking pleasure in terrible deaths. These sentiments are easy enough to understand. I prefer not to judge my neighbors using those terms, and that's just me, it seems. My understanding had been that part of the point of 'multiculturalism' was to encourage caution in throwing that kind of epithet around; it's probably been rightly divined that I am not completely on board with all that has been proposed in the name of multiculturalism. Here in the midwestern United States, lifelong exposure to the maudlin pither of the anti-abortion cult has hardened my heart; animal-rights appeals will make no headway here. I don't like and don't want cockfighting here, any more than I want guns; but I accept that there is a gun culture with very different values and ideals than mine, ideals that are protected by law. Likewise, I accept that cockfighting is a deeply rooted practice of a number of canonically recognized oppressed minorities. I'm not convinced that the moralizing against it isn't simply an expression of prejudice, especially since the "cruel barbarian" line has also been used before. I hate to say it, but I do think that opposition to cockfighting is genuinely "problematic" (LOL). So a bunch of white people decided they were better than blood sports. Well, bully for them. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:16, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
[edit] The ghosts of the past reach up through the soil
You on Arsebook? [2] Jennie insisted I ping you - David Gerard (talk) 22:41, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm on Facebook. Didn't even know there was a group for alt.gothic. Would be happy to hear from her again. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:17, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- [3], and you appear missed on the group - David Gerard (talk) 23:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Chronicles as neoreactionary
(Context)
I can sort of see Chronicles as having neoreactionary sympathies — I recall one column on the site opining how the British aristocracy was a bulwark against corrupt modern morals. But I don't think they view themselves as such. They're proud paleoconservatives, a generation (or more) older than most neoreactionaries, and would probably consider most neoreactionaries to be young upstarts who should learn a thing or two before trying their hand at intellectualism.
Incidentally, Thomas Fleming, editor-in-chief of Chronicles, has a loooong series of posts where he tries to hammer out a consistent philosophy of paleoconservatism. You can find it here: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17. (I wasn't kidding when I said it was long.)
I actually have a sort of begrudging respect for him because of this, because those posts make actual arguments I can engage with, unlike a lot of other conservative pundit material. I definitely recommend you read it — you might like some of what he has to say. (And I don't mean that in a backhanded "Haha, because you're a crackpot like him" way. Even I occasionally find myself nodding my head to some of his stuff, at least until he says something nasty about Hispanics or Muslims again.)
Radioactive Misanthrope 21:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree; just thought that there were enough similarities to be worth a mention. I haven't read all that much in Chronicles, but I remember enjoying some pieces. Now, when other high school kids were being warped by Rand or Tolkien, I was reading Mencken. I'd also strongly recommend that everyone read Russell Kirk's The Conservative Mind. The contrast with contemporary movement conservatism is constructive. Think about what Mencken would have made out of the Tea Party. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:10, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oh goodness, Mencken's eloquent horror would have given us raptures of delight - David Gerard (talk) 07:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
[edit] But you are already nobility!
(Context)
Do you deny that you practice law, and are therefore a titled nobleman?
Radioactive Misanthrope 20:39, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
- Alas, esquire is only an affectation; we also use it to address boys with slightly tongue-in-cheek formality, like "master" or "young sir". I am, however, legitimately a Juris Doctor. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:12, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
- I thought you were a classical scholar. Or is that only in your spare time? - David Gerard (talk) 08:56, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
- I do have a lot of college Latin, and wrote my law school thesis about medieval law, but yes, I am a lawyer. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 03:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- I thought you were a classical scholar. Or is that only in your spare time? - David Gerard (talk) 08:56, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Well, that's us told
[4] He's thirty - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- Heh. When I was born the flag had 48 stars. (Got the 49th a month later.) - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 17:20, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] An Essay
Hello, Smerdis.Could you please take a look at this essay (www.rationalwiki.org/http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:Dumbingdown_of_mankind) and tell me what you think about it when you can?
[edit] Just curious about just price
What about the just price page is "undebunking"? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- It's an idea that has been fairly generally mocked, especially by berts, who don't seem to grasp the reasoning behind it. That dude at mises.org, for instance, in the external links, seem to think it's all about damn freeloaders wanting something for nothing, rather than preserving social relationships. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 03:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Hat tip
Just wanted to tip my hat to you for this excellent point with an excellent source. Abed Nadir (talk) 03:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- When I read that paragraph in that blog, the clouds parted. I tip my hat to the original author. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 03:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Social attitude test
“”Political Values
Progressivism 65 Socialism 43.75 Tenderness 37.5 Your test scores indicate that you are a tough-minded progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a jaded materialist. It appears that you are distrustful towards religion, and have a pragmatic attitude towards humanity in general. Your attitudes towards economics appear neither committedly capitalist nor socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a progressive. To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a uncompromising radical centrist with several strong convictions. This concludes our analysis; we hope you found your results accurate, useful, and interesting. |
From here. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 16:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Be wary of these sorts of tests, especially when delivered from personal sites. People rate totally generic personality descriptions an average of 4.26 out of 5 points for accuracy, even when everyone received the same description. Politicized ones can be slanted further. Modern social science leans towards the big five personality traits as the most reliable metrics. I know, it's just harmless banter on your talk page, but woo is everywhere. Woo is out to get you. Ikanreed (talk) 16:21, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to confuse tests like that. My take on the results is that it was confused by my opposition to bans on blood sports and willingness to accept some proposals tarred with the 'eugenics' label. They also don't seem to grasp that you can be both religious and anti-clerical; this is ultimately what Protestantism is all about. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 16:28, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Ultimately, private property should be abolished and complete socialism introduced." Do they really think socialism is about abolishing private property? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Complete abolition would indeed be an unfair way to characterize socialism. However, as socialism by definition is the social ownership of the means of production, this would necessitate a broad range of restrictions about what could be owned and under what circumstances. It would therefore be more accurate to say that socialism entailed broad restrictions on and various criminal sanctions against many, though not all, forms of private property. Burkean (talk) 20:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Ultimately, private property should be abolished and complete socialism introduced." Do they really think socialism is about abolishing private property? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to confuse tests like that. My take on the results is that it was confused by my opposition to bans on blood sports and willingness to accept some proposals tarred with the 'eugenics' label. They also don't seem to grasp that you can be both religious and anti-clerical; this is ultimately what Protestantism is all about. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 16:28, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, Smerdis. To contextualise our discussion of Austria-Hungary and "stability/dynamism vs. stagnation/(in)security", I can say that this test resulted in me being rated as apparently highly "progressive" (95), pretty "socialist" (62.5), and (presumably?) averagely "tender" (50).
- Thus, the test concluded that I'm "an open-minded ultra-progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a journalist" (tried that line of study once - quit after 2 or 3 weeks...). That I'm "skeptical towards religion" (duh), while having "a generally optimistic attitude towards humanity in general" (slightly, but positively surprised about that one, but I have a hunch it's supposed to catch the pessimistic "people are getting stupider/more degenerate/immoral"-crowd, particularly religious doom-criers or white extinctionists). Rather less surprising (except for the qualification) is that my "attitudes towards economics appear socialist," and that, "combined with [my] social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a liberal." (NOT in my country it wouldn't, but this after all an Americentric test, so no wonder). However, I do think the final remark is skirting generic ass-kissing territory: "To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a sensible principled egalitarian with many strong convictions." Basically, the only distinguishing term in this bit is "egalitarian".
- Well, it was pretty good fun regardless. ScepticWombat (talk) 12:31, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
[edit] You have been nominated for the Board
I nominated you for the RationalMedia Foundation Board of Trustees election. Before you scoff, I ask that you genuinely consider it. Your politics may not be very popular here, but you are level-headed, patient, fair, thick-skinned, and eminently practical. In other words, you're the ideal board member. I would consider it an honor and pleasure to be able to work beside you.
Radioactive Misanthrope 01:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'd vote for you too - David Gerard (talk) 10:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
- Reminder: You only have until 26 January to accept your nomination. FuzzyDogPotato (talk/stalk) 05:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Nice job
Great new article. Ikanreed (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. Been meaning to get around to that for a while. - Smerdis of Tlön, A ⇒ ¬A. 17:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)