Talk:Anti-vaccination movement/Archive3

Take this form. Should I improve it?
[https://goo.gl/forms/tp3P1zikfZa4VAY92 The link is here. Answer honestly.]


 * If you want my honest opinion, the age cohorts are screwy (non-standard) and it doesn't allow respondents to give details of positive symptoms they might think vaccines produce. 12:54, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Question
To what extent does the anti-vaccination movement show the success of vaccination? If 'people in general' have never knowingly encountered 'someone suffering from the effects of having had a disease which can be vaccinated against (or a relative of such who mentions it)' they might be more inclined to believe the woo/not see the point of vaccination. Anna Livia (talk) 12:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I know lots of people that "suffered" a disease that can vaccinated for: myself, my sister and every child in the school I went as a kid. The result: 5 days free from school and figuring out how to entertain my boredom in bed. What's all the hyteria about? it used to be considered a mild disease before the vaccine because it is a mild disease. Then I know people that suffer from vaccine injury and they're still suffering to this day, for unlike measles, their acquired autoimmune conditions will be their sidekick for the rest of their lives. If the media covered vaccine injury like they cover "measles outbreaks" of 3 unrelated people no one would vaccinate anymore. 145.64.134.242 (talk)
 * Got any statistics to back those "vaccine injuries" up buddy? Also Survivorship bias. Have a read of that. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 15:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Look up the "healthy patient bias" and understand why it's no wonder that treatments for the healthy (what vaccines are) inevitably appear to have excellent results. The average health of the population in the West had been constantly improving since 1900 due to numerous confounding factors. Measles mortality rates when the vaccine was introduced in the 70's had already dropped by 95% without any "miraculous" injections, but still the party line is that "vaccienës save lives". Rather, vaccines took the credit for all the radical daily life improvements (refrigeration, pasteurisation, sewage system, etc.) that had already saved the bulk of the lives long before vaccines were massively used.145.64.134.242 (talk)
 * Vaccines combat viral diseases, dipshit, not pathogenic ones. Such measures won't do shit for viral diseases like smallpox for instance. Get a fucking clue. — Oxyaena   Harass  09:15, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * To some extent it is a combination of improving the human environment (the sewage system and cholera, pasteurisation and TB, refrigeration and botulism ) and also immunisation: while some 'vaccine injury' in the past will have been otherwise recorded or will have been masked by other illnesses - and consider the recently announced success of the HPV vaccine.
 * Putting my original question another way - does anyone reading this talk page know anyone who had a life-changing bout of 'an infectious disease' for which there was or is a vaccine (or equivalent process for other types of transmissible disease)? Anna Livia (talk) 13:58, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Italy
This needs updating 'The new law is still being discussed by the parliament, as of June 2017.'

There was somethingin a newspaper in the last few days I read on a train about an anti-vaxer who caught chickenpox. Anna Livia (talk) 10:18, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Instead of complaining about it, why don't you do it then? All you seem to do is comment on talk pages anyways. No offense of course, but it would be prudent of you to start providing constructive edits given you often notice articles that need updating and the like. — Oxyaena   Harass  09:17, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I am mostly active elsewhere in the wikiverse and do not have the requisite RW snark style - and contributing to the talk pages can be constructive given that wikis are collaborative (and other people may know more about the subject etc).
 * Horses for courses - and good messengers are hard to come by as they say. Anna Livia (talk) 10:57, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Actual issues with vaccines; Hepatitis
I'd just like to point out, but I have no idea how to properly incorporate this into the article, that there were a few notable cases of vaccines causing problems. The earliest being that case in the 1920's or so where improper storage made the vaccines deadly, which is why thiomersal was added in the first place. Ignoring things that happened before our grandparents were more than toddlers, the most notable cases involved the Hepatitis B vaccine in the late 70's and early 80's, which was a blood derived vaccine... created before HIV was known to medicine. Eventually the blood-derived vaccine was pulled from the market, although it's believed that the processing did kill off the HIV proteins. Related to this was the conspiracy theory that the Hep B vaccine was actually a ruse to infect gay men with HIV.

Less related was the cure for Shistosomiasis, aka "blood in my urine" disease caused by a parasite that has a lifecycle that requires both snails and humans for some bizarre reason (if it turns out that it's intelligent design, it's from a god that absolutely HATES humanity). In Egypt, having been so thoroughly infected that people used to think menstruation was something boys did too, a massive health campaign involving injections of a cure was launched. But Egypt, not being the wealthiest of countries, reused the needles, which resulted in Hepatitis C becoming endemic there. It wasn't exactly a vaccine, but that's mostly a technicality.

So... how to add? CoryUsar (talk) 06:50, 21 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I think the best way to present it would be as come kind of risk benefit demonstration. Nothing in the world is utterly risk free - not even getting out of the bath.  It would be dishoent to suggest otherwise.
 * So how many thousands, or millions have been helped by vaccines and how many people have been harmed? My guess would be that getting out of the bath is more risky than having a shot. Hubert (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Del Bigtree should be Discussed here
https://www.thedailybeast.com/anti-vaxxer-del-bigtree-got-his-start-on-the-tv-show-the-doctors

https://fox40.com/2019/04/24/hundreds-converge-on-the-capitol-to-voice-their-opinions-on-vaccination-exemptions-bill/

https://www.spokanepublicradio.org/post/inland-journal-april-18-2019-vaccine-safety-pt-1-del-bigtree

https://q13fox.com/2019/02/20/hundreds-sign-up-to-speak-at-hearing-on-vaccine-exemptions/

https://www.newsweek.com/measles-outbreak-update-oregon-california-lawmakers-work-pass-vaccine-laws-1405351

As of 2018 Del Bigtree has been credited for sparking various Vaccine protests in the USA 2601:640:C600:3C20:4068:6D75:9EFD:CC50 (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

-- Added under People, but they might deserve their own entry.--CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) 03:31, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Most definitely. This guy is a menace to society. Some of what he says can be interpreted as a call for violence, as the language is very over the top. 04:05, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Kanye West is an Anti-Vaxxer
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/07/08/covid-19-vaccine-kanye-west-cautious-makes-false-claims/5397159002/

Here is the link and its over the COVID-19 testing. 2601:640:C600:3C20:F167:98CE:7B6:A54C (talk) 01:33, 10 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I think that should go on Talk:Kanye West, but I'll definitely update his page. Looks like somebody already beat me to it, and updated his article. Rockford the Roe (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Anti Vaxxer Activist detained in Samoa
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/06/785487606/samoa-arrests-anti-vaccination-activist-as-measles-death-toll-rises

As of 2019 an antivaxxer has been detained during a measles scare in Samoa.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/07/samoa-measles-crisis-100-new-cases-as-anti-vaccination-activist-charged

Here is more on the fallout on the Samoan activist charged with interfering with Measles rescue/prevention operations in Samoa.

https://abcnews.go.com/News/samoa-arrests-anti-vaccine-activist-combats-deadly-measles/story?id=67539326

The Activist in question who is spreading Vaccine scares in Samoa is Identified as Edwin Tamasese.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/118030891/samoa-measles-outbreak-five-deaths-over-the-weekend-brings-death-toll-to-68

Now 68 people are reported dead in the Measles Scare in Samoa.

Now the death numbers has been changed to 71 people dead in Samoa and now RFK Jr. Is named for having a meeting with Samoan officials over vaccines.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/samoa-extends-measles-state-of-emergency-as-death-toll-climbs-2019-12-14/

Now 72 people are reported dead in the Samoan Measles Outbreak.


 * The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭 talk stalk 09:17, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Fiji measles outbreak 2019
https://www.khon2.com/news/international/19-confirmed-cases-of-measles-in-fiji/

So far 19 people are reported to have the measles.

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/12/04/sports/04reuters-health-measles-fiji.html

https://fijisun.com.fj/2019/12/11/measles-outbreak-19-confirmed-cases-in-fiji/

Here is more to the fallout in the Fiji Measles outbreak.2601:640:C600:3C20:E810:A17:57AF:1D6F (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

https://www.fijitimes.com/measles-outbreak-fiji-confirmed-cases-climbs-to-21/

Changed to 21 people hit with measles in Fiji. 2601:640:C600:3C20:E810:A17:57AF:1D6F (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Cosmikdebris (talk) 17:06, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

You might want to remove DeNiro from the list of anti-vaxxers
The given link is about him defending the inclusion of the Wakefield propaganda piece "Vaxxed" at the Tribeca film festival. He reversed his decision to include it in the festival later, after watching the film with "festival organisers and scientists". I personally have no sympathy for anti-vaxxers whatsoever. But it is not a label that should stick if the person in question changes his or her views. If someone knows of an instance where DeNiro voices anti-vax positions after the festival, then you should probably use that instead
 * But later he sort of reversed his reversal.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:10, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Then maybe add that link to the article as well? Or, now that I looked into a few more articles, this one? I'm not a DeNiro fan or anything. I just think one could use a slightly better (i.e. definitive) source than the one that is currently given. I would do it myself. It just that I only lurk, never edit, and I feel that whoever has ownership (or at least more ownership than a nobody like me) to this article should be ok with what I am suggesting.
 * Two things, one it's ok to be a fan of someone and acknowledge their flaws, especially if those flaws are borne of ignorance rather than malice. Two, I'll go through the sources to double-check them and if they hold up I'll add them. 17:39, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

The anti-vaxers
are in favour of. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 17:27, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

In 2020 there are now reports that Anti-Vaxxers are connected to COVID-19 truthers
Yes in April 2020 there are now reports that antivaxxers are organizing protests at various state capitals in the USA over vaccine laws and shelter in place orders. Now apparently these are reports at play here and ongoing. One of the leaders of the COVID-19 shelter in place protests are the Dorr Brothers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/04/19/pro-gun-activists-using-facebook-groups-push-anti-quarantine-protests/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anti-vaxxers-are-forming-an-unholy-alliance-with-shelter-in-place-protesters

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxevj5/the-coronavirus-truthers-dont-believe-in-public-health

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/anti-vaccination-community-divided-how-respond-to-coronavirus-pandemic --2601:640:C600:3C20:0:0:0:3EEE (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-pandemic-deniers-and-the-antivaccine-movement-an-unholy-alliance/

Here is more to this story 2601:640:C600:3C20:ACE1:43FB:914C:D055 (talk) 04:23, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

https://www.kxxv.com/news/national/coronavirus/anti-vaccine-movement-could-impact-the-effectiveness-of-a-covid-19-vaccine

Here is another case of AntiVaxxers making COVID-19 conspiracy theories.2601:640:C600:3C20:7136:5157:E445:219C (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Judy Mikovits should be added on the list of anti-vaxxers
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/fact-checking-judy-mikovits-controversial-virologist-attacking-anthony-fauci-viral

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/technology/plandemic-judy-mikovitz-coronavirus-disinformation.html

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/may/08/fact-checking-plandemic-documentary-full-false-con/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/05/08/facebook-plandemic-judy-mikovits-shares-false-coronavirus-info/3095471001/

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/05/fired-scientist-back-to-peddling-anti-vaxx-covid-19-conspiracy-theories/

Judy Mikovits from the movie Plandemic has made allegations in 2020 where the COVID-19 is connected to vaccines. Note this got banned from youtube as of may 2020. 2601:640:C600:3C20:DDB4:4970:F49:A650 (talk) 17:45, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Add section on people who cannot get vaccinated due to preexisting medical conditions?
There are people with autoimmune disease who actually cannot get vaccinated. Maybe tie it in with why herd immunity is important? People with HIV/AIDS are at high risk of contracting vaccine preventable diseases.

This fact is basically a very good reason to vaccinate so people unable to get vaccines are safe. Pretty unfair to someone with HIV who gets Measles from someone who refuses to vaccinate. --Racia zombio94 (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

You can be immunized against measles without vaccination. 45.73.113.69 (talk) 21:42, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

John Stockton former NBA star named as an anti-vaxxer
https://www.fox13now.com/news/coronavirus/local-coronavirus-news/jazz-legend-john-stockton-appears-in-anti-vaccine-documentary

John Stockton is named in a movie and was accused of ranting about COVID-19.2601:640:C681:C260:24C2:AA4B:BE8E:D53F (talk) 00:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

'Shedding'
There seems to be a recent uptick in an element of anti-vax mythos known as 'vaccine shedding' - basically a manufactured excuse for anti-vaxers to avoid and shun people who actually get vaccinated, for fear that the vaccine will "shed" harmful proteins onto people in the vicinity. Don't ask me how the hell that's supposed to work, lol. (Perhaps in their heads it's some kind of revenge for everyone keeping their distance during COVID.) Seeing quite a few accounts on QAnonCasualties of this nonsense destroying families; I hear the delusion has existed in some form or another for decades but I've looked around and can't find any coverage of it on RW? 92.237.177.217 (talk) 17:53, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this should be added. I just noticed the topic too under Del Bigtree's steaming pile of compost on Twitter. There's a factcheck on the topic here. Bongolian (talk) 18:04, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting that there is a nugget of truth to "vaccine shedding" which unfortunately the anti-vaxx crowd exploits, in that viral shedding can occur with "live" attenuated virus vaccines. Usually not in enough quantity to infect someone, from what I've gathered (see this report on influenza vaccines myths from the Mayo clinic for instance.) It seems like the only vaccine with a slightly higher risk of infectious vaccine shedding is the old oral polio vaccine (mainly via the fecal route) (link) which is not used in developed countries anymore. (Edit: Looks like it is a risk for the rotovirus vaccine, but it's worth noting that it's another fecal oriented one. Doesn't seem to be a big reason to worry, in other words, unless your hygiene is *cough* incredibly shitty.) This is not a risk for any other method, as far as I can tell. For COVID-19, I know of no approved live attenuated vaccines, although one company is developing a nasal spray live attenuated vaccine at the moment. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 18:28, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Am I right in thinking this is a particularly American bit of nonsense? I've seen it in the American press but I've personally not seen it in Europe. (Of course these memes are themselves infectious) Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:24, 4 July 2021 (UTC)