Talk:Veganism

Iodine
I am guessing that most vegans take an iodine supplement but I have never of a vegan doing this and I looked these up and they are filled with heavy metals which is very bad. Most of the vegan or plant-based doctors on YouTube tell people to take a b12 supplement not any others. Iodine is found in dairy, fish, seafood and eggs. The highest amount of iodine is found in seaweed such as kelp, nori, dulse, or arame but I have never come across a vegan eating seaweed. I am not saying they do not exist but most vegans are not doing this, so how are vegans getting their iodine? You can't buy kelp powder in mainstream shops or supermarkets, you can get it online or from health food stores. I have watched a lot of vegan YouTubers and none of them are putting seaweed powders into their smoothies. I would be interested in knowing where the average vegan gets their iodine from. It is recommended that adults consume 140 or 150 micrograms of iodine daily, pregnant women need around 220. Nobodyspecial (talk) 06:52, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I presume the supplements rather than the vegans are filled with heavy metals - but 'Food Health and Safety Regulations' would apply.
 * Possibly a search through 'Veganism journals and cookbooks' would answer the question. Anna Livia (talk) 12:22, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Not a vegan here, but I eat seaweed fairly often b/c my dashi powder is made of it. I would imagine that vegans eat more miso soup than the rest of us.  I'm just allergic to fish, so the bonito versions are out.  Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 03:47, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nobodyspecial most well-informed vegans either take an iodine supplement (or multivitamin) or they eat seaweed (marine algae) for example Michael Greger has an article on this . Kelp is very high in iodine, for example Kombu kelp can contain up to 2,984 mcg of iodine per seaweed sheet (1 gram). This provides almost 2,000% of the recommended daily intake which is massive so Greger says not to risk taking kelp. Michael Greger says to take either 1 tablespoon of arame, 2 sheets of Nori, 1 tablespoon of dulse flakes, or 1 tablespoon of seaweed salad all of which will meet the daily nutritional requirements. It's very easy to get iodine on a vegan diet. Seaweed contains the most iodine of any food on the plant. AlecGargett vegan (talk) 01:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Iodine deficiency is a huge problem worldwide, even among non-vegans. Many coubtries have largely eliminated iodine deficiency with iodized salt. --WantedFootprint (talk) 03:18, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and iodine supplements are expensive. Iodized salt is the cheapest and easiest thing to use. Wonder (talk) 20:36, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

DHA and EPA
This review found that "Modest consumption of fish (eg, 1-2 servings/wk), especially species higher in the n-3 fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), reduces risk of coronary death by 36% (95% confidence interval, 20%-50%; P<.001) and total mortality by 17% (95% confidence interval, 0%-32%; P = .046) and may favorably affect other clinical outcomes." but vegans do not eat fish.

Most vegans are not getting enough DHA or EPA, the only way for a vegan to get a suitable amount of DHA/EPA is from algae based supplements but most vegans are not taking them. There is some weird stuff going on in the vegan community at the moment over DHA/EPA for example Michael Klaper has said DHA supplements increase the risk of cancer. I have not seen any strong evidence to confirm that though. Bee (talk) 22:47, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've already grabbed the popcorn!🍿🍿🍿 Whoak (talk)
 * Hey, don't remove other people comments. The Community Standards clearly shows you are not allowed to remove other people comments. Whoak (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Check the explanation in the history, just a mistake. I know I've accidentally rolled stuff back that shouldn't have been. armed_roomba (she/her)What am I doing wrong this time? 23:39, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will assume Andew5 did this in good faith. Whoak (talk)
 * Another misclick I did was here. --Andrew5 (talk) 00:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Could flax seeds, chia seeds, walnuts and other nuts make give vegans enough DHA/EPA? W235M (talk) 01:33, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

No it isn't high enough, the conversion rate is very low. If you eat loads and loads of flax, chia and walnuts you are only going to get between 1 and 10% of EPA if you are male and only slightly higher for female. Most studies report between 2-8%. The conversion of DHA is very low, it's always around 0-2% in men, slightly higher in women. To make matters worse a diet rich in in n-6 PUFA can make the conversion rate even lower. For example a diet high in linoleic acid decreases the body's conversion of ALA to EPA (it interferes with the desaturation and elongation of ALA). I have read elsewhere a high-fibre diet can also decrease ALA. Most vegans eat a very high fibre diet. The only way on a vegan diet to get a good amount of DHA and EPA is to take an algae supplement. Algae are the sources of the omega-3 fats in fish, so go straight to the source to get omega 3 is what some vegans say. So you could do well on a vegan diet of getting DHA/EPA but the algae supplements must be consumed. The problem is that nobody knows the long-term health effects of such supplements, but we could say this about most supplements. Some vegan doctors are now coming out against all supplements (apart from B12) claiming they all increase the risk of cancer. There are a lot of debates about all this in the vegan community right now. In conclusion it is a waste of time to eat loads of chia or flax on a vegan diet. You will not get the correct omega 3s, supplementing is essential. Bee (talk) 02:18, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The paper which claims fibre interferes with ALA conversion is here . Obviously age is another important factor in regard to ALA conversion into DHA/EPA. This is why mainstream health agencies claim only a "well-planned" vegan diet is sustainable. You literally have to plan and read so much shit into the diet. If you want good health on a vegan diet it's not as simple as just giving up animal products and eating some baked beans on toast or soy products. It's definitely do-able, but serious planning needs to go into it. You have to learn about all the essential fatty acids and nutrients. A vegetarian or pescatarian diet is much easier, you can get away with doing much less planning. By adding some eggs or seafood to a plant-based diet you wouldn't need any planning or all the knowledge about essential fatty acids etc. You would meet all the nutritional requirements without supplementing and I believe this is why new diets have popped up like the "seagan" diet (vegan diet with seafood) or vegan diet with eggs (vegganism) in recent years, they are more practical and easy to consume long-term. Bee (talk) 02:29, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand you need DHA/EPA or there is a stronger risk of getting dementia in older age. The thing is this doesn't always happen, you could shoot me down and say I have just cherry-picked this name and it is anecdotal evidence but Donald Watson the man who coined the term vegan lived to be 95 and he was in good health until the end. He never take any supplements apart from b12. He didn't consume flaxseeds, chia or walnuts nor did complex planning with his food. His diet was very basic, grains like cereals and bread, fruits, vegetables, legumes (beans) and potatoes etc. This DHA/EPA thing is important but it is being used by anti-vegans in recent years as a scare tactic to scare vegans. Most westerners in general are not getting good amounts of DHA/EPA, I mean just look at the standard American diet. This idea to single out veganism for low DHA/EPA is a serious bias. 109.123.74.183 (talk) 03:01, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You get DHA/EPA from just taking an algae oil supplement. They have done studies on this for example a good algae-oil supplement will provide equivalent DHA to a cooked piece of salmon "These results indicate that algal-oil DHA capsules and cooked salmon appear to be bioequivalent in providing DHA to plasma and red blood cells". This has also been demonstrated in reviews . I agree that flaxseed or chia seeds are not good substitutes for DHA, they only give ALA and a very poor conversion rate into DHA and EPA. It's easy to find algae supplements as there are now many for sale online. Non-vegans have no valid reason to kill and eat sea creatures. It's unnecessary. AlecGargett vegan (talk) 20:21, 12 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The countries that eat more fish have significantly lower rates of dementia compared to the USA. I have chosen to be a pescatarian (fish plus vegetarian), but my doctor (who is an osteopath) recommends a vegetarian diet. My doctor is a very bright and fairly informed man on diet. On the other hand, he is overweight so he does not lead by example.


 * But consider this during the pandemic: "Add this to the long list of reasons to adopt a plant-based or pescatarian diet: New research has found that what you eat — and what you don’t — may lower your odds of developing moderate to severe COVID-19 infection. The study, which was published June 7 in the online journal BMJ Nutrition, Prevention & Health, is the first to report an association between dietary patterns and the severity of COVID-19." (BMJ is the British Medical Journal). After analyzing the survey data, researchers found that respondents who followed a plant-based diet had a 73 percent lower risk of developing moderate to severe COVID-19; for those who followed a pescatarian diet, the risk was 59 percent lower. “We also found that those who followed low carbohydrate/high protein diets had greater odds of moderate to severe COVID-19 compared with those who followed a plant-based diet,” says Sara Seidelmann, MD, an internal medicine doctor at Stamford Health in Stamford, Connecticut, and a coauthor of the study. W235M (talk)

No reason to eat meat
We all know meat is bad for the environment, global warming and human health but more importantly to the ANIMALS. We are now in 2022 not sure why people are still eating meat. Consumption of meat causes many health problems, ,  including cancer, diabetes and heart disease. Instead of attacking veganism, RationalWiki should be supporting it. TotallyVegan (talk) 04:21, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Is it attacking veganism? Don't think so. BTW I wish there's some examination of the meat industry practices and how workers are overlooked. 04:30, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Almost everything you eat has the potential of causing health issues, depending on amount, condition, combination, etc. As for why people eat meat, this can be varied. For most it's normalized, and seen as something of a luxury. Further, many people enjoy the taste, smell, and texture of meat. As for the ethics of meat consumption, I'm not really sure you have a case there. Production sure, but consumption? I just don't see it. 16:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)


 * It's still a bit too focused on nutpicking, but it's not as bad as it was. I guess TotallyVegan may be talking about a different version of the article - there was a time when one or two pseuds kept constant watch over the article, ensuring it is as emotional and fallacious as possible, and reverting most improvements. You can see it in page's history, usually followed by making the page protected. It's not hard to see why someone seeing those "protected" versions would get the idea that RW is against veganism. --78.88.243.57 (talk) 18:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

No mention on the article about iron
"Approximately half of the iron in meat, fish, and poultry is heme iron. Depending on an individual's iron stores, 15% to 35% of heme iron is absorbed. Food contains more nonheme iron and, thus, it makes the larger contribution to the body's iron pool despite its lower absorption rate of 2% to 20%." 

"Heme iron is more easily absorbed by the body than non-heme iron. Therefore, vegans have to eat twice as much iron as meat-eaters to get the same amount". "Heme iron is pretty simple: you eat it, you absorb it. It’s not affected by the all the other food you are eating. However, there are many factors that affect the absorption of non-heme iron, so you have to be aware of the things you eat and drink that can inhibit non-heme iron absorption, such as coffee, milk and certain minerals that compete with iron for absorption". 

This is why studies have found that vegans have lower iron levels than omnivores Vegetarians have a high prevalence of depleted iron stores. A higher proportion of vegetarians, compared to nonvegetarians, had iron deficiency anemia. This is especially true for premenopausal vegetarian women. 2456 (talk) 23:16, 27 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Nope, a lot of that has been debunked. Vegetarian/Vegan diets are higher in vitamin C which increases non-heme iron absorption. "Vegetarians who eat a varied and well balanced diet are not at any greater risk of iron deficiency anaemia than non-vegetarians". 138.68.164.177 (talk) 23:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

sv3rige on vegans lacking nutrients
There is a well known flat-earther/carnivore diet troll called sv3rige who makes anti-vegan videos. He claims that vegans cannot get vitamin a, vitamin b6, vitamin d, vitamin b12, vitamin f, vitamin k2, amino acids taurine, carnitine, creatine, carnosine, heme-iron, CLA, dietary cholesterol and COQ10 as none of these can be obtained from plants. I am suprised sv3rige does not have a RationalWiki article.

I don't have a chance to go through every one of these but taurine is found in some plants. For example this paper found "Pumpkin seeds contain 13.5 nmoles/g, black beans 9.2 nmoles/g, horse beans 12.9, and chick peas 18.7 nmoles/g. No taurine was detected in peanuts. Almonds, cashews, hazelnuts, and pine nuts contained taurine in concentrations ranging 15-46 nmoles/g." . Taurine is also found in energy drinks like redbull which are vegan because they have no animal-ingredients.

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is mostly found in dairy and meat but is not exclusive to animal products because it's also found in mushrooms (such as cremini mushrooms) so a vegan can obtain it. Sv3rige's claims appear to be entirely false.

In regard to b12, it's now been found that duckweed has b12. "Duckweed (Wolffia glabosa) was found to contain approximately 750% of the recommended daily value of B12 per 100 grams of the dry plant"

Although it is true that vegetarians and vegans generally have lower plasma carnitine levels than meat eaters it's not true that carnitine is only found in animal products. A moderate to high carnitine level is found in tempeh (there is a chart on this page) which is not far off bacon or pork. Pork has (28 mg/100 g) compared to tempeh, which still has significant amounts (20 mg/100 g). A soy-eating vegan can easily get carnitine. A non-soy vegan may have to supplement but most vegans eat soy. Wonder (talk) 20:31, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Taurine found in Redbull is synthetic and based on animal sources as it's the kind your body actually recognizes as taurine.

Cremini Mushrooms may have CLA but a Vegan will still be deficient in CLA. Sv3rige's point is also that cremini mushrooms don't exist naturally and required humans to cultivate them since they didn't exist until the 17th century.

Citation [from cleanmachineonline.com] is a link to the retailer's website, not a study. Currently there is no study on the actual content of b12 in duckweed, just claims made by a company attempting to sell a product.

Criticism section
In the criticism section it says "Calcium deficiency, leading to bone fracture risk". This is not supported by any reliable sources.

Firstly calcium from dairy products are absorbed usually in the range (22–27%), but certain vegetables (bok choy, kale) have better bioabailability. "Plant foods like leafy greens contain less calcium overall but have a higher bioavailability than dairy. For example, bok choy contains about 160 mg of calcium per 1 cup cooked but has a higher bioavailability of 50%, so about 80 mg is absorbed. Therefore, eating 1 cup of cooked bok choy has almost as much bioavailable calcium as 1 cup of milk." . Here is a list of calcium bioavailability for different foods. The absorption rate of Bok Choy is 53.8% compared to cow's milk 32.1%. Often carnitards and anti-vegans talk about oxalates and how they destroy any calcium content in greens but bok choy is a low oxalate vegetable.

RationalWiki is clearly not being very rational here. You would need to explain "calcium deficiency" as a criticism of a veganism with a reliable source. Also the dairy industry are known for lying to the public, just look at the dairynutrition website, they delibrately made their bioavailable calcium table wrong. 96.3% calcium absorbed from milk ?! That's an estimated calcium rate, not the actual absorption rate. The actual absorbtion rate as seen here is 32.1%. Also calcium citrate is the most easily absorbed type of calcium and does not require stomach acid for absorption so you do not need to consume it with other foods and you can get this in fortified foods or in supplement form. In conclusion RationalWiki have failed to show any evidence that vegans are at bigger risk than omnivores in calcium deficiency. 5.6mm (talk) 12:10, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


 * This isn't a reliable source (a cohort from 2007) which is clearly biased because the sample size of vegans was much smaller than the omnivores and vegetarians. It seems "Rational" Wiki thinks this is a valid criticism of vegans. 5.6mm (talk) 12:13, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I am a well known vegetarian and big dairy advocate, I have published many papers on dairy and vegetarianism. There are some studies showing vegans are at risk of calcium deficiencies or bone fractures. "Following a vegan diet may result in deficiencies in micronutrients (vitamin B12, zinc, calcium and selenium) which should not be disregarded. However, low micro- and macronutrient intakes are not always associated with health impairments. Individuals who consume a vegan diet should be aware of the risk of potential dietary deficiencies."


 * "Vegans had lower levels of vitamin A, B2, lysine, zinc, selenoprotein P, n-3 fatty acids, urinary iodine, and calcium levels, while the concentrations of vitamin K1, folate, and glutamine were higher in vegans compared to omnivores."


 * Non-meat eaters, especially vegans, had higher risks of either total or some site-specific fractures, particularly hip fractures.

John Milburn (talk) 12:23, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


 * RationalWiki users are big dairy and meat eaters, it is a waste of time commenting here. I have been vegan for 3 years. The people who run this website are anti-vegan clowns. Mr AlecGargett (talk) 12:26, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Three accounts with the same stance registering and commenting within minutes of each other? How very odd... 12:47, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I am on VeganWiki so I don't really care about this website but I am interested in why you are adding 2007 cohort studies which are clearly not reliable for anything. Do you think that is rational? You are citing garbage epidemiology. AlecGargett veganism (talk) 13:01, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * John Milburn clearly a sock of GrammerCommie adding biased cohort studies. Show me a valid review of trials that vegan diets are deficient in calcium. None exist. AlecGargett veganism (talk) 13:02, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * And how do you figure that? 13:04, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I see. Accounts just show up, start a fuss, make accusations of malice without evidence, and just slink off. If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect that someone was trying to make vegans look bad... 15:22, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * You mean yourself considering you admitted on this website to eating animal products? Sorry I am not on this website 24/7 like yourself sir. "John Milburn" is CLEARLY not me, they are arguing against veganism. You can Google my username, I am very well known in the field of veganism. If you check the dietary cholesterol article I have been commenting on this website for over 2 years. It is the same thing everytime, RationalWiki citing outdated epidemiology to attack vegans. This is your website, your thing that you spend your life on, you need to explain why you are attacking veganism with a 2007 bogus study that doesn't even prove vegans are deficient in calcium. Still waiting for your answer. Do you think that study is reliable? Maybe you can answer us that. AlecGargett veganism (talk) 16:00, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Anyone can claim to be anyone online. Further, there are tactics which utilize a false opposition to create to illusion of debate or to heighten one's message. With that being said, am I to take it you have backed off accusing me of sockpuppetry? 17:32, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Addendum. I do not seek to make vegans look bad. They however, have a nasty habit of doing so to themselves, though I really wish they wouldn't, given the importance of the subjects they cover. 17:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The "AlecGargett veganism" account is NOT me but an imposter. I'm no longer a vegan but meat eater. I gave it up months back. Can confirm this on my Facebook page. I tried veganism but it didn't match my lifestyle. I'm not a big dairy eater and do big SHITs down my toilet.Real AlecGargett (talk) 00:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm going to be blunt here, I believe those were all the same person and that none of them were the real Alec Gargett. 01:39, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Who even is Alec Gargett? --Andrew5 (talk) 20:58, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Some online vegan figure. 21:00, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. --Andrew5 (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2022 (UTC)