Debate:Israel

Why are we supporting Israel? True, it's mostly a democracy and we should support democracy (and Israel's basic right to exist). True, we should help defend it if it is attacked. But why do we not stop it carrying out terrible acts against the Palestinians? Why do we not stop it building homes for Israelis in the occupied territories? And why did we support Mubarak when he turned Egypt into a police state, merely because he kept to the 1977 peace treaty? Was it worth letting 80 million people suffer thirty years of dictatorship in order that 8 million of their neighbours should be free? Or have I missed something important here? Real first name and last initial (talk) 12:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Define "we" for your cosmopolitan audience. Editor at CPmały książe 12:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Western governments in general, the US in particular. Real first name and last initial (talk) 12:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. Israel is a "democray"
 * 2. We cannot allow anything to disrupt our oil shipments
 * 3. Jews>Muslims to most US citizens
 * 4. They have nukes
 * 5. They have bio-weapons
 * 6. The have chemical weapons
 * 7. Rapture insanity
 * 8. Guilt over the Holocaust
 * ТyUser_talk:Tyrannis 12:57, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * No US President will get elected without the Zionist vote. Jack Hughes (talk) 13:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Correct, the Israeli lobby is also much more powerful than, say, the Atheist lobby. ТyUser_talk:Tyrannis 13:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * OP makes the mistake of thinking there is something to our foreign policy besides realpolitik. Our support for Israel and Mubarak goes back to events starting at the end of WWII:


 * Truman supported the partition and creation of Israel to scoop up the Zionist vote. In "Give 'Em Hell" Harry's own words:"I am sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism: I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents."
 * Long story short, Israel became the bulwark against Soviet satellite states during the Cold War. Israel was initially more friendly with the US than the Soviets as David Ben-Gurion (first PM of Israel) had a more pro-American stance. Syria and Egypt especially went into the pocket of the USSR. Backing dictators like the Shah in Iran, Saddam in Iraq, the Saudi royal family, etc. didn't endear us too well to the Arabs either
 * Mubarak was a useful stooge for us. Israel and Egypt had been fighting over the Sinai for quite a while. Egypt's goal had consistently been to nationalize the Suez. The problem is that's bad for us because it blocks up trade by sea. The solution was to play both sides of the game. Keep Israel out of the Sinai, let Egypt keep ownership of it, but don't allow them to occupy the Sinai or screw around with the Suez. Mubarak was willing not to rock the boat on that, so we gave him loads of foreign aid dictator welfare. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The Suez is ludicrously useful. It cuts a huge amount of travel time off of ships, particularly oil tankers. Thus greatly shorting the transit time to Europe and the US for our oil shipments. You don't want an enemy holding that.ТyUser_talk:Tyrannis 15:58, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

This is what i'm on about. Real first name and last initial (talk) 14:17, 28 February 2011 (UTC)