Draft talk:2021 Plymouth Massacre

Massacre
I'd dispute the use of the word in the title of this page. Nowhere that I have found anywhere on the net is this word used for this event. Mostly "shooting" is the word of choice. Thoughts ... ? Scream!! (talk) 20:34, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking further into it I don't think that it is missional: it was the act of a mentally disturbed man (not my words) and nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism. The only possible mission relevance could be with allowing someone less than 100% mentally sound having a firearms licence. Scream!! (talk) 20:50, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree regarding the title, 'massacre' implies a large but unspecified number of murders. It's missional insofar as the shooter being an incel, but we don't need a page on ever single violent incel (RationalWiki:What is a RationalWiki article?). Bongolian (talk) 20:56, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Uk counterterror and UK police declined to classify it as terrorism
Saw some article though that suggested any similar attacks in the UK in the future may get that designation though. It's important to note that 'terrorism' is a state-defined legal idea, originally about actions against the state. 2600:8806:0:C2:8C2B:F841:BF1A:9887 (talk) 21:15, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * is there any evidence this was motivated by incel or what have you ideology? he was into that stuff but he also had a history of violent incidents, anger management issues, and apparently worsening mental heath leading up to the shootings. seemed like an angry individual getting into more and more blazing rows with his mum over his sexism and the like. losing his rag with his mum one last time and shooting her then still in rage shooting a few more random passers bys dont sound like terrorism, even if incel inspired stuff is considered terrorism. it werent incel inspired. he was an incel who lost his rag with his mum and then went off on one. no manifestos or 'im gonna kiil em, you'll see' stuff. it doresnt seem planned, and only his mother was not a random stranger that he killed. these incidents are a rarity in the uk. angry nut jobs arent supposed to have guns. he was incel and cant be a loon if he was cleared for firearms, so must be incel terorism. except he was an angry nut job who shouldnt have had a gun because he might go apeshit one day, but did have a gun and went apeshit oneday. that he was incel had no baring on his spree, it was merely the source of angry arguments. having angry argument is more pertinent than what they were over. for all we know the moment he snapped was he his tea got cold.


 * the focus on the incel stuff is thats all there is to know about the guy. a locally known angry man shoots a bunch of people one day. people want more than 'man with a temper loses temper' thats all there seems to be though. his internet history gave the press something to pad the story out because it seemed like it should be significant, but ultimately was not, and incel culture is/has inspired mass killings elsewhere. those killings you can argue if they were terrorist attacks, the plymouth shootings just werent.


 * that cover up section - thats just pure dogshit. 'the media quickly made a narrative that the attack was a domestic issue' the media did, but the police did first. the assertion that this is to hide the 'real' reason for the attack was the guys hatred of women. in the context of an article about a mass shooting, this is baseless assertion is pretty fucking wank. he was a misogynist with a temper and a gun. nothing ive seen suggests the temper + gun is the salient factor here. its not manipulation that this shooting isnt in the news any more. its not in the news because there is nothing more to say. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:46, 23 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree with you on the cover-up section (which I didn't write) and so re-wrote it. I was not the original author of this article (that was Agoodman995), the first draft was awful and hence all the edits.


 * As far as if he self-identified as 'incel', he did not. He described them as people 'like' him.  As far as if he was into the blackpill philosophy, that was what half of his Youtube videos were about and before the attack said he had 'consumed a blackpill overdose'.  Also it appears he named his entire channel after the largest self-described blackpill channel named 'wheat waffles'.  Out of Jakes six youtube videos, 1 was all about Wheat Waffles as well.  2600:8806:0:C2:64CD:C507:3B6B:F41F (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2022 (UTC)


 * As far as if this is notable for RW, I don't really know or care as I'm not a delitionist and always add my additions to my own wikis after using RW.
 * BUT it is true this is the only violent attack committed by a member of a self-identified incel forum (r/uglyuncensored) (PUAhate wasn't a self-identified incel forum, nor was r/Forveralone), so that makes the attack notable for those who think the incel article is notable for RW. especially as it shared the culture of r/incels and that's all RW wants incel to be anyway 2600:8806:0:C2:64CD:C507:3B6B:F41F (talk) 23:09, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * EC and why would anyone be covering this thing up anyway? is british media pro internet loser? terrorists sell more papers and incels is great villian for the tabloids - hate filled malcontents who want to kill women in revenge for rejecting them, self pitying losers who cant even get a date are ripe for ridicule, their own slang that needs explaining to middle england and theres any number of areas to blame incels on, fron the and the right. why squash a story like that? why wouldnt they want to go with the terrorist angle? AMassiveGay (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. 2600:8806:0:C2:64CD:C507:3B6B:F41F (talk) 23:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * As far as people whitewashing it those were blackpillers and blackpill-adjacent people (including a person working for an NGO active in promoting incels.co, that was getting Department of Homeland Security money at some point). I wouldn't describe the *mainstream* media reaction as a coverup either, but rather kind of lazy and copy-pastey.  2600:8806:0:C2:64CD:C507:3B6B:F41F (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * For the record though, despite not being the person originally claming this attack was motivated by online ideologies....
 * I do think that this attack was at least partially motivated by a very deep, dark, right-wing philosophy that tells people to be martyrs and tells people their life is over and that they have inferior genetics, and it may the only "blackpill attack" 2600:8806:0:C2:54E5:E6EF:8CEB:B99 (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * but there is no evident for any of that. zero. we know incels are hate filled pricks. its irrelevent here. the subreddits ruled againsts violent posts and he was not deep in with incel culture, wholly on board. show me something more indicating you've looked further than reading 'incel' and 'shooting' in a headlineAMassiveGay (talk) 00:22, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * zero evidence of what? you keep talking to me as if I were the one that said reddit and the media whitewashed it when that was another author (Agoodman995). Learn to use the history tab and the 'compare revisions' buttons. Some blackpill/blackpill-adjacant ppl tried to whitewash the blackpill from the attack.  Here you can listen to one of the guys Jake subbed to whitewashing any role he might have had vis-a-vis Jake and promoting martyrdom/hopelessness in public https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxVnYiNsHr, Here you can see someone apart of Light Upon Light whitewashing the event and falsely implying Jake was not blackpill, https://archive.ph/BCDBf, here you can see she was a member of the same org promoting incels.co in Jan 2021 http://web.archive.org/web/20210114172755/https://www.lightuponlight.online/shape-shifters/, https://politicalresearch.org/2021/07/01/mainstream-pill, and here you can see the chief executive officer of Light Upon Light saying it got "significant" DHS money around December 2020 while reporting on the death of the Light Upon Light CO.  https://archive.md/XwnZa Im not saying its a government conspiracy or that the government played a role in the attack, but that blackpill-adjacent people were whitewashing it, including a blackpiller Jake was subbed to and a person working for a "significantly US funded" "counter-extremism" NGO. 2600:8806:0:C2:7CAD:1784:1472:1FCE (talk) 12:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Also you are putting words in people's mouths, no one said 'incels whitewashed jake'. I said blackpillers whitewashed Jake, and Agoodman said media did. 2600:8806:0:C2:7CAD:1784:1472:1FCE (talk) 12:44, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * thats all irrelevant. show me were he decided to kill his mum. https://theconversation.com/incel-culture-what-weve-learned-from-investigating-plymouth-attackers-digital-footprint-166305 AMassiveGay (talk) 13:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that he killed his mom makes what irrelevant to what? Agoodman and I agree with media that this was partially motivated by a strange right-wing philosophy and wasn't just a domestic violence incident gone haywire.  But like you, and unlike Agoodman, I agree the media didn't "cover-up" anything as accurately reporting on a police refusal to classify the attack as terrorism does not constitute a conscious "cover-up" by the media. 2600:8806:0:C2:7CAD:1784:1472:1FCE (talk) 13:25, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

AfD
i know ive asked this before but i forgot the answer. do we AfD drafts or just a simple vote on talk pages. there is literally nothing more factual to add to this article that would fill it out or make it missional, meanwhile conspiracy theories with explicit and implicit claims incel ideology was the motive, despite nothing suggesting it was, or anyone saying it was, except us here. nothing lost if deleted, but we keep misinformation that uss a local tragedy that got more attention that ultimately warranted to demonise incel culture ideology, as if there was already plenty of stuff to go after incels. we dont need to make stuff up. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * You have a lot of opinions for someone who has done as little research on the subject as the original author you are criticizing, (albeit you are more rational than them on the original authors writing). I don't think 80% of the articles on RW are particularly missional to the original intention of RW as the alt-science/religious/plane-jane-conservative crowd got tired about writing about a decade ago, and also got out-voiced by smaller groups of extremists since then imo 2600:8806:0:C2:7CAD:1784:1472:1FCE (talk) 12:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * If it comes to AFd I'll vote abstain as it wasn't originally authored by me and the bulk of your complaints are about the original inactive author, who, if they haven't come to defend it in weeks, I doubt they'd show up during a short AFD. 2600:8806:0:C2:7CAD:1784:1472:1FCE (talk) 12:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

delete
since i cannot apparently afd it and everytime i go to post my reasoning, it gets vapourised, gonna just do a simple vote here.from the state of this talk page a d the article itself, we really need to nip this in the bud.

Delete

 * ok, third time lucky. an angry man with a violent temper and a history of violent incidents wrongly givewn back a gun that was previously taken away for for his violent disturbances, after a period of worsening mental health and blazing rows with his mother, kills her and killed others at random, then himself. gthis is the entirity of the of what happened. he had visited van incel subreddit and had posted a few youtubes on some aspects of incel cultur, and was reputed to have a misogynist of some description. there was no violent rhetoric. no manifesto. no declaration of intent. no hint of what was to come. his record is absent from the current draft, and was glossed over in previous versions. claims of 'superficial' reporting by the media are false, its just the incel connection went no where. if it had a bearing it was that it made an already angry man angrier. the focus on blackpills and incel is redundant as that is covered else where on this wiki. here, it strongly implies without evidence that that this is the root and cause of this shooting spree, talk of cover ups and whitewsshing- here, byn the media, the police, on reddit is just pure dross to feed someones conviction that there was more to this. some weird claims of a government agent is more dross. this was a terrible tragedy enabled not by incels but by the police fucking up and giving someone undergoing a mental health crisis a gun. without the incel dross its not missional. the current state and the direction it was headed would be conspiratorial thinking and the use of the dead to push an anti-incel line that is already well supported elsewhere with well documented evidence but here there is none. people saw shooting and incel in the same headline and this article is to support an conslusion made from that. we dont need this AMassiveGay (talk) 15:30, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * show me anywhere a stated intent to kill. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:30, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) The draft is very poorly written and places undue emphasis on the subject’s odd beliefs. Very tenuous missionality. Make it go away. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 17:10, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Not an AFD so pointless voting

 * 1) Could be improved for a main article.  His crank ideas and associations, and the scale of the attack for a country with low gun violence makes the subject missional rather than not.  Would fix poor writing.  Also why are is this """AFD""" being done on a talk page, shouldn't you hash it out with the janitor who deletes your AFDs?  There were other "Keep" proponents in the previous AFDs who seem to be worn out by amassive gays attempts to get around janitor deletions of his AFDs.  2001:67C:2628:647:1:0:0:350 (talk) 17:32, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This article only has one attempted AfD, and that was today. 18:06, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to the BoN who was editing this page, I blocked them for nine hours because they were being a toxic asshat and trying to pick a fight with me for removing pointless attacks. 18:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There were other keeps, again, hash it out with the janitor whoever thinks doing AFDs on talk pages to get around a janitor is 'conflict resolution'. given amassivegays (strangely strong) hatred of this article mere draft i'm sure he can canvas enough to get it deleted with a proper AFD 2001:67C:2628:647:1:0:0:350 (talk) 18:10, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * EC usually low gun violence levels do not make it missional. it was a terrible tragedy but lets get the scale of of attack right - it lasted 6 minutes, sadly almost took as many lives as minutes, but just 6 minutes. i live 20 minutes from the sites the most recent terrorist attackes in the centre of london which killed way too many with cars and with knives. mass shootings are thankfully a rarity in this country, and its the combination of mass and shooting alone that made this national news worthy, journos would have salivating at the possibilities. the story wasnt a runner though when it despite all the initial speculation thess things always get, it turned out to be mundane in its tragedy with limited scope for headlines. no real debate around gun control it just means already strict rules will get stricter an we are shown yet again short comings in mental health care. its the incel thing that would have made it missional, but i can imagine the tabloids disappointment that turned out to be red herring and they'd had all the mileage from it. the focus we have currently, what it had been previously, and the various assertions to its significance on the talkpage is at best flogging a dead horse with a distastefully ghoulish relish of those finding their patch of the internet is some degrees closer to the action than before and milking it for all its worth. we do not need to get in that dubious action. yes i am strongly opposed to this article and its use of a real tragedy affecting real people as a means of luridly obsessing over what amounts to a kind of  weird incel porn. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:23, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It appears you've made it your life's mission to delete an obscure, non-Google-indexed draft page about a UK mass shooting on an Atheist wiki. In the process you've directed more eyes to it than it probably ever would have gotten considering how few people have written on it. You'd be best served by resolving your dispute with the RW janitor rather than whatever this is.  2001:67C:2628:647:1:0:0:350 (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This discussion is quickly turning into borderline harassment of an editor over seemingly meaningless drama. I would advise you to cease this train of thought. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 18:33, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Please explain how telling someone to create an AFD, and if they can't to work it out with the relevant admin, constitutes harassment. Actually don't, I forgot the moderation style consists of 'goad' and 'drama' 2001:67C:2628:647:12:0:0:350 (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell people are trying to create drama to elevate this to a moderation page notice to get around Rocky's refusal to hold an AFD on it, to get it deleted. Not playing any games, resolve your mod disputes, I'm outta this mess. 2600:8806:0:C2:4985:BB9F:7520:4FC9 (talk) 18:51, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * We eagerly await your return under a new IP address, as you have done with after I blocked you. Yes, I knew you swapped IPs this entire time. 18:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * EC what about addressing the issues i have with the article and tell me im wrong. if i had the inclination i could have just deleted the page with no discussion, im sure no one would have batted an eyelid, but im trying not to be a prick about it. go on, let me in the the secret. what am i missing? all id need to some statement of intent, some threat of violence, any thing to show a link between the incels and these murders, something that shows one is the cause the other, that motive was based in ideology. let the police know too, im sure they'd welcome that information. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2022 (UTC)