Talk:Judaism

This article really sucks. Judaism should be criticized just like any other religion.
Seriously, why are the idiots who run this place so scared of criticizing Jewish culture? It's about the only culture you racist/anti-religious dorks won't bash.
 * Probably because there are so few Jews that the nutty ones have little power or fame, unlike Christian or Muslim nutters. FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 03:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * In its current format, this article barely meets mission. It's so freaking dull it could be from that other wiki.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 14:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

"Secular Jews"
Says "Almost exclusively an Israeli concept, secular Jews identify as Jewish culturally but not religiously... A sizable portion of Israeli Jews consider themselves secular, but the concept is virtually unheard of in other countries." What absolute crap. Many American Jews identify as secular - i.e. ethnically/ancestrally identifying with the Jewish people but not following the Jewish religion. (And not just Americans - I'd say the same would be true of a significant chunk of Jews in many other Western countries.) No way this is "almost exclusively an Israeli concept". Blacke (talk) 09:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you know any Greek people? Do they worship Athena?  Same thing; people that identify as part of the Jewish nation but treat the religion the way modern Greeks would treat Zeus. CorruptUser (talk) 14:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What about this speech by David Silverman? He makes a fairly good point that the idea of "secular Jews" or "atheist Jews" is BS. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 2A02:908:1B6:1080:ECB6:5D40:E4F5:AB17 / talk
 * Would you mind summarizing for those of us who either do not have the time to watch a one hour video or do not have the bandwidth? 21:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's been quite a while since I listened to his lecture, so I hope I remember things correctly: David Silverman used to call himself an "atheist Jew" until the day he wanted to explain what this actually meant. Since he is an atheist it couldn't be the religion that'd make him jewish. What else would there be to warrant such an identification? Race came to his mind. But Judaism can't be a race since it doesn't follow the common race identification markers: A child of parents of different races is identified as "mixed race" - 50:50 so to speak. But according to jewish tradition, one is either a "full Jew" (in case one's mother is jewish - no matter what the father's race is) or a "non-Jew" (even if one's father is jewish). - As a side note: IMO the idea of Judaism being a race is BS because the idea of human races in general is pseudoscientific BS. Even if you take the fairly constructivist idea of race being "a set of physical characterics a society deems important" - there are no specifically "jewish" physical characteristics. You will find self-identified Jews of all skin-colors, eye-shapes etc. - Secondly, Silverman thought of Judaism being a culture. But after doing some research he realized: There is no distinctive secular jewish culture. Yes, there are some cultures that are considered jewish, like the Ashkenasim, Mizrahim, Sephardic etc. But the only elements all these cultures share are of religious nature. In all other aspects they totally differ. He gives the example that Ethiopian Jews don't eat bagels, which is considered typically "jewish" food. Amaf the only thing a New Yorker Askenasi Jew and an Ethiopian Jew have in common is the religion. Aside from it, all so-called "jewish" cultures are much more similiar to their historically surrounding cultures of different religious backgrounds than to each other. Ashkenasi (which means "german" BTW) language, customs, music, food etc. are much more similar to their german or eatern-european counterparts, than to Mizrahim or Sephardic traditions (Amaf Ashkenasi language Yiddish is really some variant of German. Most Germans will understand it, but arabic Jews certainly not). - Also, personally I doubt many of the people labeled as "secular Jews" actually engage in "secular" Ashkenasi culture. I bet hardly any of them actually speak Yiddish or play Klezmer music or the like. - Therefore Silverman concludes that there is no jewish race and no jewish culture, but only a jewish religion. And since he doesn't follow this religion, he cannot rationally call himself jewish. So, a "jewish atheist" is an oxymoron. - Personally, I consider this completely convincing. The idea of Judaism being something other than a religion is plain wrong and therefore the idea of being "secular jewish" should be dropped entirely. Just the same as there is no such thing as "secular christian". &mdash; Unsigned, by: 2A02:908:1B6:1080:D816:939D:587D:47CA / talk

Judging from this article, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand basically makes the same case: "Not only, he argues, is there no Jewish culture that is not derived from religiosity, but the very notion of secular Judaism is indeed an empty one, since no such thing exists." I think the article should be edited. Since it is protected I cannot do it myself. Would somebody help out?

Edit war
In the most recent edits, trolls like Noir LeSable are suppressing sourced facts and scientific papers while replacing them with unsourced false information. How is this allowed? 70.55.205.80 (talk) 20:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems that disputes the reliability of your source. I'll let them explain though.  20:44, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Also please define "troll" for me. Your use of the word seems a bit off. 20:46, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * What does it matter if he disputes the reliability of my source? There are always trolls who will dispute and attempt to discredit inconvenient facts no matter how true or reliable the sources are. My sources are actual scientific papers meanwhile he has zero sources for the misinformation that he is trying to replace it with. I'm sure he is a troll trying to push unscientific misinformation for a political agenda (Zionism). I've been though this before so I know what's going on. 70.55.205.80 (talk) 20:58, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Your detractors are correct. Go away. 21:10, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you going to elaborate on that remark with actual substance or are you just going to resort to making politically motivated retorts while banning users for alleged "Rabid antisemitism" which is often the tactic of such people who like to hide the inconvenient facts? Do you work for the ADL by any chance? The undeniable reality is that I have posted actual facts backed up by sources that are actual scientific papers while what you are defending is baseless disinformation that doesn't even include sources which is against the rules of the site. 108.12.217.2 (talk) 21:51, 30 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm sure that you are confident in your worldview. However, Noir LeSable is an established member of the community, so at the very least we should hear them out. 21:13, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * There's clearly an issue on this site with trolls which includes some of the mods like Summa Atheologica. 108.12.217.2 (talk) 21:51, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * If the strongest argument in your arsenal is "my argument is being suppressed" your argument is wrong. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:53, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * That isn't the argument, pay attention and stop trolling. I have facts backed up by scientific sources versus misinformation that isn't backed up by any scientific sources.. or any sources at all. 70.55.205.80 (talk) 23:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Not in a good position to respond thoroughly at the moment, but I can at least drop a few sources and discussions. Dr. Eran Elhaik's studies have been widely criticized (we even have a page discussing his theory. See: Khazar myth). The primary study cited, "Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz" by Das, et al. improperly uses GPS and fails to provide more convincing evidence that Yiddish is not Germanic.
 * Also, you may claim to have "been through this before" with "Zionists," but we've all also "been through this before" with random anonymous IP Addresses trying to push crap onto RationalWiki. (Side note: real funny you should mention Zionism -- the Khazar theory is ) ℕoir LeSable (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Just because you have some politically and emotionally motivated opinion pieces (Zionist Jewish websites nonetheless) that claim that the first study is unreliable doesn't give you the right to suppress the scientific facts since those opinion pieces are not scientific sources. If you think the scientific paper you linked is relevant and "refutes" the first paper then include it in the article along with the first paper. Also, that opinion piece and your scientific paper only addresses the first scientific paper I included and not the second follow-up scientific paper which is basically a response to your paper. By the way, none of those papers are the "Khazar theory" or "Khazar myth" so stop trying to use that old tactic to discredit the papers. The only one trying to push crap is yourself and your troll friends because at the end of the day I have the scientific sources while the original crap that was in the article that you are trying to defend is not only debunked but you have no credible sources to back it up in the first place. This is not even debatable at this point, you're a troll pushing lies for your own political agendas. 70.55.205.80 (talk) 23:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * So your response boils down to A) "No it's not", B) Balance fallacy, C) Ad hominem. Glad to hear. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 23:23, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Let's just be clear here that antizionism is not the same as antisemitism, antizionism is a legitimate political stance to take, one many Jews take as well, antisemitism is just bigotry. Antizionism is essentially anti-nationalism. — Oxyaena Harass  23:27, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, naturally. Reading over it again, I can see how what I wrote can suggest I'm conflating the two. Sorry for that -- I've gone ahead and edited it above. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 23:37, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * So your response boils down to A) Strawman, B) Not being able to admit that you are left empty-handed and that the scientific facts don't care about your feelings. Are you Jewish by the way? Why do you try so hard to suppress facts inconvenient for the false Zionist narrative of history? 70.55.205.80 (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay I think we caught a live one here. I`ma ban. — Oxyaena Harass  23:53, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * A live what idiot? Looks like we have another blatant troll and censorship nazi here. Keep trying to suppress the facts, I will keep reverting and posting the facts until all of you shills are exposed, your privileges removed, and you get banned for corrupting the integrity of the articles on the site. 50.64.57.219 (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hold on, I'm going to be a Mod for a bit. So, you haven't really proven anything BoN, merely raised a competing worldview. None of the users you're accusing of trolling have been deliberately inflammatory or offensive. However, you have. So ease up on the insults and threats eh? Ok, Mod hat off. 00:32, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay that's it... this is an excerpt that I removed from the article which I replaced with scientifically backed facts: "... and supported Levantine ancestry for the vast majority of modern Jews...". Notice how this entire sentence doesn't even have a source? Please provide a credible scientific source for this excerpt along with the rest of that sentence. I'm waiting.... 50.64.57.219 (talk) 00:46, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * No. That's not why I'm involved. I'm moderating this dispute, not participating in it. 00:52, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * You said "So, you haven't really proven anything BoN, merely raised a competing worldview." How is that not participating in in the dispute? How can it be a "competing worldview" when I have scientifically-backed facts while your "competing worldview" is basically a lie without any sources to back it up? This is not a "competing worldview", this is politically motivated bullshit that is not even sourced. I don't get what's so hard about this for you guys unless you are just trolls and shills. 50.64.57.219 (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, I'll request that you cease making unsubstantiated allegations. You have no evidence of deliberate fraud, merely that someone who is sticking to their guns. Alleging they are being dishonest without proof is a fallacy known as poisoning the well, one you have been guilty of since this debate began. Further, being combative with a Mod is unlikely to win you any allies. Perhaps if you debunked Noir LeSable's counterargument that your source is unreliable you might have more luck. Suffice to say, continuing to verbally abuse me will get you nowhere. 01:33, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Again you are playing stupid mind games which is no surprise for a neet commie fanboy. Are you sure you aren't part of the Ministry of Truth? LeSable's "counterargument" was only able to address one of the two research papers I provided and he was already refuted either way. If he thinks that his research paper has sufficient of a response to the first research paper I provided then he should include the paper and let the reader of the article decide. I'm still waiting for a single credible scientific source for that sentence that is currently in the article that you filthy trolls keep defending tooth and nail, especially the part that says "... and supported Levantine ancestry for the vast majority of modern Jews...". I'm still waiting yet I still see no valid source. Also fuck Oxyaena, bunch of censoring and truth suppressing pansies. 67.68.154.159 (talk) 01:57, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

I haven't done anything other than moderate and encourage debate. I'm sorry if you dislike my moderation style, but that's simply how it is. Perhaps if you stopped hurling verbal abuse around your debate opponent might return? 02:44, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this kid’s a full-on wannabe Neo-Nazi. No further “debate” with it is necessary. 20:06, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * You're a pseudo-intellectual faggot who can't accept basic facts because they are too inconvenient for you or what you think you know as absolute fact so you must resort to labelling and slandering the person in a desperate attempt to discredit the substance even though you have nothing to back it up. Fuck the faggot mods, fuck Bongolian, and fuck Duce. 70.55.205.80 (talk) 21:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess that comment's really important for you, Smart Nazi Man, so I'll leave it here but don't expect any more responses. 21:30, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Homophobia category
I have a huge problem with putting this article in the homophobia category. Exclusion and homophobia is a very real thing in Orthodox and Haredi communities; however, the Reconstructionist and Reform denominations (as well as most Conservative groups in the US, particularly USCJ) are explicitly LGBTQ+-affirming. Heck, I attended queer Torah study this past weekend. I think putting an article on Judaism in the homophobia category portrays the entirety of Judaism as homophobic, which I hope you can tell from what I've said is not accurate. Quantumgeek333 (talk) 00:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * From my understanding, the category means that the article covers homophobia, not that the entire religion is inherently homophobic. GeeJayK (talk) 01:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, shit, I didn't think of that. I might be a complete walnut. I'm going to browse through the other pages in this category. Quantumgeek333 (talk) 01:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But, looking at this article again, I would also argue that it doesn't really cover homophobia. Unless I'm missing something, I think the only LGBT-related content here is mentioning that more liberal groups are "Many liberal Jewish congregations...as a general rule tend to be more tolerant of homosexuality and intermarriage". Quantumgeek333 (talk) 01:56, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

This is horrible
This article is way, way biased. Judaism is literally the root of the other two fairy tales. Why is this article written in such a way to give Judaism a legitimate status? It's the same as the other religions. BS. Fehmgericht (talk) 20:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)