User:Caius/proudofbeth

Beth stands up to Andy, and indicates that the class disagrees with his "separate testing" plan - from [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Aschlafly&oldid=547112#Have_you_decided... here]

Have you decided...
...to do the same test yet? Thanks,~BethTalk2ME 09:58, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * After hearing the student debates and reflecting on this further, I've decided that different tests are best. Chivalry is about far more than physical strength, and opposition to chivalry breeds a lack of respect and a disdain for hard work.


 * Did you notice how no one opposing chivalry mentioned the Bible, not even once? Perhaps a lack of chivalry pulls people away from the Bible also, although that was not my initial basis for seeking different tests.--Aschlafly 10:25, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * The side for different tests didn't mention the Bible either. I know you said that your doing this because you don't want completion and belittling between students. Well, I've got to say, this isn't the way to do it. I don't think forcing it on your class is the correct way. And it is forcing. Our petition showed that only 5 students out of how many, 50? disagreed. When you think about it, it all comes down to the heart. There are going to be people in the real world who will belittle us and say things like, "you got a 95? I got a 97." There will be people that will do that. You can't force someone to do something(be chivalrous), if they don't it in their heart. To be honest, I don't see your point anymore. I'm actually seeing your attempts breed disrespect for your teaching and other classmates. There was none before this. The class has never had a problem with belittling and nasty completions. I'm sorry it's turned out this way. It is breaking the class up, and that is sad. ~BethTalk2ME 10:37, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * At the outset of our class, I announced by email and in person that we would instill chivalry. Of course, many people are so used to the lack of chivalry bred in our culture that it is a challenge to go back to what was so successful for most of our history.  I realize that some want to insist on treating boys and girls alike, and anyone who really feels that way is free to leave.  Our class will then be left with those do want more chivalry.  They may not speak up as much, and they may have signed a petition that they didn't really mean to sign, but I think you'll find that many more want chivalry than oppose it.--Aschlafly 11:02, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Mr. Schlafly, I agree with your statement about the lack of chivalry in our culture. And I agree with your wanting to change it. I just don't agree with your method. Will both tests be placed online? I would like to take both for my benefit. ~BethTalk2ME 11:17, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Bethany, I appreciate your agreement with the goal, but how do you explain the aggressive opposition to different tests for boys and girls? Among a minority of the class I detect an attempt to censor any meaningful difference in treatment of boys and girls.  The very essence of the goal -- chivalry -- is to treat boys and girls differently and encourage them to do likewise.  Put another way, what meaningful alternative method would you suggest?


 * I do plan to post both tests online after administration and grading in class.--Aschlafly 11:28, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * If I can just poke my nose into this (rather public) discussion, what do the parents want? Philip J. Rayment 11:38, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * What the parents want (or rather think they want) is not necessarily the best for the children. The parents obviously want their kids to get the best education possible, but they may not know the best details of how to achieve that as they may be misinformed on certain issues (as Andy points out). If the parents thought they knew everything best, they would just teach their kids themselves - instead they wisely choose to have this done by a professional like Andy. --DRamon 14:19, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * And what the teacher thinks is best may not be the best either. Everyone is fallible; nobody is perfect.  In this case, the students are being homeschooled, which means that their education is under the control of their parents.  Sure, they delegate some of that to a teacher, and they might well decide that Andy knows better than them and delegate this decision to Andy also, but ultimately, the parents have the responsibility for their children's education, so it's relevant to ask what they think on this.  That is, it's not a question of do the parents want different tests or the same tests, but do they want (a) different tests, (b) the same tests, (c) to leave the question to Andy, (d) to leave the question to the students, (e) ... and so on.  I was just interested in knowing what they thought, as ultimately it is their responsibility.  Philip J. Rayment 19:24, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Just a comment to Mr. Schlafly, we disagree on is the meaning chivalry. I believe there is nothing wrong with differing opinions. I see chivalry as physical manners, courtesy in treatment, generosity, but I simply do not see it as mentally. I don't believe it encompasses intelligence. I also believe that chivalry does not just apply to girl's treatment of guys and guy's treatment of girls. I think that it applies to girl's treatment of other girls and guy's treatment of other guys. Also, I think that if you get a good grade, be proud at your effort, and chivalrous' to others; encourage them. Again, it is a heart issue. Even doing different tests, if someone, in their heart, desires to put themselves at the top, they will do it, no matter what you do. Where there is a will there is a way - nothing stops it.~BethTalk2ME 11:40, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * I don't know about the rest of the parents, but my mother and my friend's mother disagree also. It would be interesting to know other parent's opinions. Mr. Schlafly, perhaps you could send out an e-mail? ~BethTalk2ME 11:42, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * I will send out a general email, hopefully after I've graded more of this week's homework!


 * An opinion is only meaningful if it is informed. At first glance, most people would support "equality" in many things, ranging from wealth to gender to grading.  Most parents would like their children be given an "A".  A few parents have even left my classes when their child did not do well on the exams and did not receive awards.


 * But reason prevails. I'm confident that, after listening to the reasons, most parents and students will agree with my rules of chivalry (which, by the way, I announced by email at the beginning of the course).  As I said, anyone is free to leave but I am confident that the "silent majority" wants more chivalry as I'm doing.  Rest assured that there are many in the class who do not like the rather outspoken attempt by a few to impose "equality" on all.--Aschlafly 12:25, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * The question is not one of equality (although I did notice that you put that in quotes). We are all equal under God, although it's true that we have some different roles, and it's true that in some ways one gender on average does better than the other.  I'm personally not convinced that that justifies separate tests.  Actually, if avoiding gender rivalry is the concern, wouldn't it be better for them all to do the same test and simply point out that girls typically do better than boys in some ways and boys typically do better than girls in other ways?  Wouldn't that work just as well, if not better, at avoiding gender rivalries?  Philip J. Rayment 19:24, 31 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Philip, how do you reconcile your support for equal treatment with your acceptance of the Bible, which repeatedly and emphatically emphasizes the different roles and treatment for males and females?--Aschlafly 08:38, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * I never disputed that males and females have different roles. On the contrary, I acknowledged that they do (although only to a limited extent, I will add).  Where in the Bible does it endorse different treatment of the sort you propose for males and females?  Philip J. Rayment 10:48, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * For starters, try reading the first part of Genesis, where God explains how males and females will be treated very differently after the Fall.--Aschlafly 11:41, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Mr Schlafly--

If this was a way to gain support for chivalry (which I think is a good idea) it has backfired miserably. DuncanTalk 08:13, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * Duncan, thanks for your observation. Everyone seems to agree that more chivalry is needed, but no one seems to offer a meaningful alternative approach.


 * The logic remains as sound now as always: competition between boys and girls is unnecessary in a large class, adding nothing.  Such competition does cause avoidable harm, so avoid it we shall.  I expect that afterward our class will be stronger for it, even if slightly smaller.--Aschlafly 08:38, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * Perhaps you've explained this before, but what harm does it cause that could not also be caused by competition between people of the same gender? Philip J. Rayment 10:48, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * Most people find it intrinsically uncomfortable competing with someone of the opposite gender. When that competition rises to violence, society itself considers it to be worse than violence between members of the same gender.--Aschlafly 11:41, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * In the real world, though, your students will be competing with people of the opposite gender, whether it's for a job, promotion, college admission, academic honors, and so forth. If they can become more comfortable playing on this field I would imagine they would be better prepared for success in their efforts after graduation.  Some things are uncomfortable for many people, such as public speaking, to use one of your examples.  Through practice, a person can become more comfortable speaking publicly.  I think this would also apply to becoming comfortable with competing against people of the opposite gender.  Corry 13:10, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * No, adults of different genders usually do not compete with each other. They don't on the battlefield, for example.  They don't in the home.  And when genders do compete, as in domestic violence, the result is tragic.  So as a society we avoid inter-gender competition when possible.


 * There may be rare times when inter-gender competition (among adults) is unavoidable, but that is no argument for imposing it (among teenagers) when it is avoidable.--Aschlafly 13:25, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * First, I think that domestic violence is not necessarily the result of competition, but fortunately I have no experience in that category. To clarify what I'm discussing regarding competition: when your students apply to college, they are competing for a limited number of seats against people of the opposite gender, unless they are going to a single-sex college.  Similarly, if they want to be top of the class, they will be competing against students of the opposite gender.  When they graduate, they will be likely be competing for jobs that can be filled by people of the opposite gender, and there will be inter-gender competition.  And if there are several women and men considered for the same promotion after being on the job for a while, there is competition again.  This is the competition I am referring to, not necessarily competition in a sport or in combat (although there are some types of combat that women are currently trained and qualified to engage in).  So a number of your students will very soon be competing with people of the opposite gender, and they will be at an advantage if this isn't something new to them.  Corry 14:20, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Study after study has shown that teenage students work best in single-sex environments. If this is correct for schools, it is equally correct for homeschool classes and for electronic-medium classes. What Mr Schlafly is doing isn't some ridiculous antidiluvian whim, as certain here seem to be trying to imply, but is based on the most advanced educational practice (sanctioned by time, and only in recent decades dropped by Liberal opponents of proper education) and will bring the best out of members of his classes - male and female. Bugler 16:34, 1 November 2008 (EDT)


 * Excellent point by Bugler. In fact, even public schools are going to single-gender classes in many areas.  In knee-jerk fashion, the ACLU is suing to stop this.


 * To Corry's point about adult competition, it is still often within the same gender and in all of Corry's examples it is as adults rather than as teenagers. There are many things, such as drinking, that are allowed for adults but prohibited for teenagers.  Teenagers have more than enough to handle at their ages without increasing their burdens and aggravations.--Aschlafly 16:44, 1 November 2008 (EDT)