Talk:Homeschooling/Archive1

chinny chin chin
Um, your fourth paragraph is leaving its chin wide open for a pretty simple counter. --Robledo 19:23, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Did we fix it? I can't even figure out what the fourth paragraph is.  Let alone find the kitchen counter... human be in 17:01, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Edumacation
After some thought on this I have come to a quasi-conclusion. Homeschoolin' ain't so bad.

The bestest thing a parent (or a public skewl teacher) can learn a student is to learn the sheer joy of knowing things simply because the student can.

Where, (or who from), one picks up information isn't quite as important as learning to be teachable. I'm beginning to think this "issue" is reactionary fodder for (mostly) leftish thinkers. CЯacke ® 19:25, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
 * There's no issue with homeschooling... so long as the kids are getting what they need. Which is where the problem comes in. Wazza (Not Wazzock, Wazza)Approach the Presence 04:54, 29 November 2008 (EST)

Homschool
Is that where Homsar went? --Kels 20:04, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

ET IN ARCADIA ...
Don't you UKers get all superior now - we've got 'em here Too: http://www.homeschool.co.uk/. Type 'evolution in their search box and go (mad?). Or just google 'homeschooling uk'! http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/regional/UK.htm -Keepthe faith 20:37, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

Heeeey. ..
I think somebody spelled "trustworthy" wrong. . . YB indeed! 19:56, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

Assuming it's "trusworthy"; Yaaaaaawn! KeepMe informed 20:06, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

Cost?
Has anyone costed homeschooling? Including such things as minimum wage payment for teachers, books, equipment, Assfly's courses (those that aren't free - you get what you pay for), examination fees etc. etc. ... Compare with tax etc. paid for public schooling. Susan Jayne Garlick talk  12:15, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Homeschooling pioneer?
Anyone over in the US comment on this guy: Rushdoon. He seems to be a hyperChristian/creationist all round wacko (well, he was he's 7 years dead now but his "Chalcedony" organisation lives on - even if it's to far out for the Southern Baptists) Susan  Purrrrrrr  13:28, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * I used to get his (rather nicely produced) newsletter, Chalcendon Report. IIRC, he was a pretty severe Dominionist, a belief I have no sympathy for. --SockOfGulik 15:55, 13 February 2008 (EST)

New editor's revision (reverted)
I've reverted a major edit by a new editor and left a copy of her(?) amended version as a sub page of her talk page. Susan Miouw  08:31, 13 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yah, that looks like it was copied in. Maybe it could be stored in a subarticle and linked as "a more homskollar-friendly version of this article"?  Or not... human  15:26, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Is this it?
See Also: User talk:Mia Zagora/homeschooling Susan  Miouw  12:45, 14 February 2008 (EST)


 * AUTHOR'S NOTE: This article is written by someone who actually knows homeschoolers, is a homeschooler and has experience with homeschoolers.    You can edit or erase these words all you want and put back the drivel that was originally under this heading, but that doesn't change the facts one iota.  Just check it out for yourself - - or is that too much work?  Too painful?  Check the links.  None of this was plagarized.  Unlike some people I am intelligent enough to do my own research and compile it together in a few coherent paragraphs.  Yes, you will see this same article somwhere on the internet in a couple of days, but it will be posted by my own hand on a site of my choosing.  You are not "rational" at all  You are blind and ignorant and - most pitiful of all - quite content to remain that way, wallowing in your perceived intelligence.  Idiots leading idiots not with facts but with false perceptions, which, as history has proven, is far more harmful than all the guns in the world."

Having read it (in a I'm waking-up sort of way); I vote we do actually place this in place OF the one we have as it is written goodly and explains a lot of what motivates HS Parents and I'm moving this to the article's talk page. CЯacke ® 12:53, 14 February 2008 (EST)

It's not what she says, it's the way that she says it. see User talk:Mia Zagora Susan  Miouw  13:08, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Mia
How does anyone expect to get their point over when they just dive in and dump 11000+ chars and then vanish. Susan Miouw  12:34, 14 February 2008 (EST)


 * I'm sorry if my rollback created grief but: anonymous IP + calling us idiots + glossing Assfly's accomplishments = rollback. Is my math correct? PFoster 12:39, 14 February 2008 (EST)


 * Finding stupid article on a close-to-heart topic + improving it + finding hostilities and reverts + situation escalating = reminds me of Liberals in the golden days of CP (March-April 2007). Good liberals questioned and discussed in talk pages, but maybe Mrs.Mia is not so Wiki savvy? Editor at CPBring TK back 12:43, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 * No complaints PF - this is 3rd time Susan  Miouw  12:50, 14 February 2008 (EST)


 * Iwas feeling quite charitablle towards her but I'm getting a bit fed up with her methods. Susan  Miouw  12:52, 14 February 2008 (EST)

California and Homeschooling
News from AP, sfgate, Schwarzenegger not happy with it, Christian post, Catholic news agency. The short version - government oversight of homeschooling in California. It is necessary to have an credentialed instructor teaching a student. Period. Judge Croskey, without hearing arguments from the school, said this was a "ruse of enrolling [children] in a private school and then letting them stay home and be taught by a non-credentialed parent. The appellate court confirmed a lower court’s finding that "keeping the children at home deprived them of situations where (1) they could interact with people outside the family, (2) there are people who could provide help if something is amiss in the children's lives, and (3) they could develop emotionally in a broader world than the parents' 'cloistered' setting." --Shagie 17:12, 7 March 2008 (EST)

"not sure this example shredding section really belongs"
First of all, thanks to Susan for kicking off the example section!

About Human's edit comment (cited in part in the headline)... I dunno... why not? It could easily be moved to a CP namespace article (which would give us the space to shred more examples), and we could add a "See also" link in this one. Only concern would be if this article loses anything if we cut out the example. I haven't read the full article yet (I rarely move away from WIGO... yes, shun the non-believer... shuuuuuun!), so I can't answer this one.

Either way, if it gets moved/cut, the link in the Porsche WIGO item should be altered to point at the correct target. --Sid 21:46, 12 April 2008 (EDT)


 * I'm not sure the example really belongs there either, but I suggest we leave it 'til the WIGO's gone to archive & then put it somewhere else. (where I don't know) SusanG 21:48, 12 April 2008 (EDT)


 * Hmmm... we can always alter the link in the WIGO entry... unless you want to put this article into the spotlight, of course. Quasi-pimping articles via WIGO would be a smart move, I admit that much... --Sid 21:51, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * The reason I don't think it belongs is it isn't "about homeschooling", it's about "ripping on assfly" - certainly good fodder for a CP namespace article, but a bit lost in an article about HSing, which is a far bigger topic than teh assfly's blog. Sorry I didn't start this talk section properly, by the way.  Thanks for doing it from my edit comment!  Re: WIGO, is this section supporting an item there?  If so, I see the point of just getting it loaded up "somewhere".  But let's feed it to something like "cp:so called homeschoolers" or something?  Changing the WIGO link is pretty easy, right? Sid's pimping point is a good one, but let's pimp better articles, this one is lumpy. human  22:25, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Yup agree 100%! trouble is things just vanish if they're given a non-intuitive title. Specially if they're not in Mainspace & out of Random page selection. (& I like it 'cos its miiiiine) :-) SusanG 22:30, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * One more colon makes good ;) I know it's yours, but a good CP: title is at least memorable - also, a rip on assfly's so called "homeschooled" geniuses would be a good article. human  01:05, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

Following (German Homeschooling & Porsche) inserted by &mdash; Unsigned, by: 87.98.131.249 / talk / contribs07:22, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Comments on Porsche
Hi :-) I'm German and would like to add a few things concerning a) homeschooling in Germany and b) Porsche's career. I'm aware, however, that this is not the scope of the article, so I would offer them for the general interest :-)

Homeschooling in Germany
In Germany, homeschooling as such is not illegal. You have to become a private school, however, which means that you have to have qualified teachers (read: have studied their fields plus paedagogics at an university up to a diploma) and need to meet standards set by the state and the same for all schools and universities, public and private.

There are schools run by cults (from Anthroposophists to Christians), but they all have to meet those standards as well (which is why $cientology won't get one). Many of these schools do not offer regular degrees, but rather are boarding schools which offer additional courses to those the children attend at regular schools. Other schools are for special children, with special additional courses in things like music, hard sciences, various sports etc.

It is illegal for parents to deny their children an education by an approved school. Lately there were some high-profile cases of Christian fundamentalists who would rather go to jail than send their children to school. The overall reaction of Germans was that this constituted child abuse and should not result in parents being fined and eventually jailed, but in taking the children into state (or foster) care.

Porsche
Whether Porsche was German can be debated. He certainly died one.

Porsche possessed the Czech-Slowakian citizenship until 1934. Urged by Hitler himself, he then gave that citizenship back and took the German citizenship instead.

It is noteworthy that Porsche had no qualms whatsoever to work with the Nazis and he used his relations to push both his own work and the military's. He was among the first to demand forced labour from Himmler and Hitler themselves. Whether that involvement was due to his fascination with technology or due to his loyalty towards the Nazis is disputed.

During the war and prompted by Hitler, Porsche designed and built the Volkswagen (the Beetle's precursor).

I should think that CP won't mention how Porsche became German, the people he was involved with are not exactly the kind you would like to mention in polite society. A controversial character like Porsche's might confuse their clientele anyway.

The above makes me sick! Not because I disagree with it but because I compare the erudition of a German in not his(?) native tongue & wonder how many English (or US?) citizens could do the same in a foreign language. I think that we're guilty of Language Fascism. 11:40, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for the compliment, Susan :-) But it was really all luck (good teachers and multi-lingual peers), that would have had the same result for everybody else. Especially as I made mistakes. Which I refuse to correct, because they put the compliment into perspective ;-) I mean, wouldn't it have been an interesting quirk in history if Porsche really had demanded that Himmler and Hitler worked bodily at his factory? *blush*

But I take offense at the expression "Language Fascism". It's a German thing, I'm afraid, so please be patient with me.

The terms "Nazi" and "Fascism" are quite narrowly defined. Lately I notice an inflationary use of both terms that threaten to muddle peoples' perception of history.

If someone speaks of "feminazis", he (more often than not) has no idea what either "feminism" or "Nazi" means. But by equating them, Nazis turn into people fighting for their rights (while one might reject the means and methods of some feminists, their self-assigned goal is equality) and feminists turn into ethnicist(!) mass murderers.

Similarily "Language Fascism" is an incorrect equation of local idiosyncrasies and a political system with some distinctive features (of which language is none). While I do think I understand what you mean to say, I would suggest a less charged term. Such as "being lucky to have grown up with today's lingua franca".

I can see that reading in other languages might be a good thing, but it really isn't necessary if you've grown up with English. What good would it do you if you could read Kant in German? I can assure you, he's no easier in the English translation. On the other hand, it does me good to read Russell in English, because it helps me discuss Kant's work in a language that is spoken by next to everybody, not only native English speakers. Latin is so last era ;-)

Of course, if we all could agree to Oxford English, that would be a thing ;-P

Not all homeschooling...
Sadly, this article seems to be one that falls prey to the belief that all homeschooling is motivated by an attempt to isolate children from potentially educational situations. This is not the case. While I do not argue that a very large (disturbingly large, even) number of homeschoolers are homeschooled to prevent exposure to secular education, there are actually quite a few that do so to increase exposure to secular education. Public schools are better than religious insulation homeschooling, but only just barely IMHO. I myself was homeschooled to allow me to pursue a decent education in mathematics, science and other fields that were actively denied to me by the public schools in my area. As such, I feel that homeschooling uniquely prepared me for the challenges of an ambitious academic career of which I am currently entering the seventh year of.

Being a newcomer here at RationalWiki, I don't presume to go in and lay waste to the article, but rather I merely wish to point out the folly of making fun of all homeschoolers for the flagrant and intentional failures of the loudest subset. Far be it from me to recommend that RationalWiki be stripped of its excellently-honed sense of sarcasm and biting wit, but in this case, I think that it is misdirected, even if only slightly. --Cgranade 10:00, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It is unfair to all homeschoolers to tar them all with the Schlafly brush, but that's the major contact with them that we (generally) have. We've several homeschooled members who appreciate this. Please accept that we differentiate between homeschoolers & homeskollars. You might like to add a section referring to the good side?  11:06, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Like I said, I am a newcomer, so I guess I just got the wrong impression. When I get a chance, sure, I'll add a section. Thanks for setting me straight. --Cgranade 11:21, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, I'm sure that your input from the "other side" of Homeschoolingwould be most interesting. We on the other side of the Atlantic really only get one vision of the US so I'm sure yours would be most welcome. Any statistics would be nice too.--Bobbing up 11:43, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

Hopkins Murder Case
"Part of the mystery here is that, apparently, none of these children were in school" but were being home-schooled, Mobile County District Attorney John Tyson said. "Home schooling, under this situation, removes almost any chances of us catching up with these kinds of things until there is a catastrophe."

Gruesome, tragic, and extreme case, but it does highlight a valid concern, I think. --Phentari 12:06, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Link(s)?  ħ uman  14:56, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

homeschooling industry
In the course of the rather meandering path called "my life" I spent 10 years in the "homeschooling industry". However, should I launch into my realities of it in the article they would likely be axed out as being anecdotal. None-the-less, I'll toss this fact (WAIT! Is it just a theory until I prove it. Produce old pay stubs or something?) out early in my editing process - being a firm believer in the ''lay-all-the-cards-on-the-table" philosophy of life. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Carptrash / talk / contribs
 * Well, why not synopsize it here then?  ħ uman  14:28, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Amerocentric (pulled from article)
This article is quite Amerocentric, in that it mostly reflects the homeschooling atmosphere in the United States. - added to article by Carptrash

Homeschoolers in Britain, for instance, have to provide a level of education as good as school education (although without having to conform to the national curriculum or league tables). Totnesmartin (and whoever wrote the first bit of this) 07:21, 5 September 2008 (EDT)


 * That is also the case in many American districts. Education in highly decentralized in the US, so most (or all) regulation of homeschooling is done on a state or school district level.  ħ uman  19:11, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

Edit Wars
Redirection to Child Abuse has it's witty side but do we want to lose all this hard work? Silver Sloth 17:23, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Funny, yes, but served well enough by the "were you looking for" link at the top. And they aren't the same thing, of course.  ħ uman  19:13, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, yes, that idea is pretty good too... actually, I think a bit better, actually. --Eira omtg! The Goat be praised. 19:15, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

Some other real reasons some real people home schooled in America. (section moved here to discuss)

 * Daughter was raped in the school basement and refuses to return.
 * Son harassed and beaten for being gay.
 * School refused to award credit for 6 months spent in Argentina so kid either skips the trip or does not graduate.
 * Student just wants to study (real examples):
 * cello making,
 * watchmaking
 * stuffing dead animals
 * and each can do it as a homeschooler.


 * Student gets chance to play professional tennis, but school will not let her.
 * Child piano prodigy wants to tour.
 * Kid decides that she is learning nothing at her school. Figures that she can do better at home, and does.
 * Lots more.

Argumentation by footnote is not a good practice (so let's both stop ;) ). Neither is citing a bunch of claims to your own unpublished work.   ħ uman  18:17, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I noticed this recently & thought it looked out of place. I think we need to mention in this article that not everybody's reasons for homeschooling are the ones espoused by Schlafly, but this arbitrary list of unsourced examples doesn't help so should be deleted.   w easeLOId [[Image: Weaselly.jpg|15px]]~ 18:25, 25 October 2008 (EDT)

Oddly enough very little in this article is sourced, but it is only that which goes against the Rational Dogma that gets questioned. But I have come to expect that here. I spent 10 years working in the homeschool industry. These are all real reasons why various individuals chose to homeschool. I have come to believe that folks who do not trust the word of someone else are people who can't trust because they are themselves untrustworthy. So don't take my word for it, delete away. Einar aka Carptrash 22:27, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Just tidy it up... and don't reference your manuscript unless it's published. Looks dodgy otherwise... references are supposed to be available to everyone, not just the author.
 * That was my point - references to real sources are awesome. References to unpublished manuscripts are dodgy. Surely, in writing your book, CT, you have what we call "real" sources?  And if so, just document them. Sounds easy, eh? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  00:16, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * "I have come to believe that folks who do not trust the word of someone else are people who can't trust because they are themselves untrustworthy" What does that mean, exactly? You're almost in TimeCube land.... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  00:20, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * "Who is the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?" <font color="maroon" face="Hurry Up"> w easeLOId [[Image: Weaselly.jpg|15px]]~ 09:30, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

The reason a lot of the statements in this article aren't sourced is because they're largely speaking in generalisations, whereas my main problem with this list is that it is very very specific - e.g. when you mention people who want to study only cello making or stuffing dead animals, I assume you're speaking in each case about one student you've known, rather than a significant demographic of homeschoolers. It just looked a bit odd against the rest of the article. I've now written a couple of paragraphs addressing the same subject, & using some of these examples but phrased less specifically as more general reasons people might opt for homeschooling. It would still be good to get some specific examples, but references to an unpublished manuscript are useless because we can't refer to it. It should be easy enough to find examples on the internet of people talking about their reasons for homeschooling. <font color="maroon" face="Hurry Up"> w easeLOId ~ 09:30, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Feel free to slip back into the relative comfort of your generalizations. To me homeschoolers are each individuals, they are all specific people.  Your generalizations are better (opinion) termed "stereotypes" and while they do have some value, about the same as all stereotypes, they are actually (another term for "my opinion") just a projection of your views and attitudes and biases.  Based on, I'll surmise, spending too much time with the BIG medias and Conservapedia.  How many homeschoolers have you had personal contact wit?.  Whooops I forgot, that makes it anecdotal. It does strike me as oddly  . . ... interesting that you state, " It should be easy enough to find examples on the internet of people talking about their reasons for homeschooling.", when I'm telling you - on the internet no less -, that I've worked with thousands of students and families and that's not good enough.  Where is the so highly celebrated and valued "logic " apparent here?
 * Life. what a place to live. Einar aka Carptrash 14:17, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Weasel, nice work. You integrated the additional ideas in the same style as the article.  Carpy, quit carping, it's unbecoming.  You seem to be ignoring that your suggestions were never deleted, they were discussed, improved, and are essentially in the article. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  14:48, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

Improved. Essentially. Damn I missed that altogether. However conclusions (based on which scientific principles?) such as, " However, if the majority of homeschooling time is given over to a particular subject, the child may miss out on a balanced general education, which could disadvantage them later in life." need not be laid at my doorstep. It is pure projection on you or your source's (what was the source for that - I missed that too.) part. I also seem to have missed the reality that unbecoming behavior is not the norm around here. I am definately going to have to take a more scientifc approach to observing what goes on at Rationalpedia. Einar aka Carptrash 15:19, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Carptrash, I'm sorry that you are unhappy with my contribution, when what I was trying to do was integrate the spirit of what you were saying back into the text. You are welcome to edit it, as I'm sure, having worked with thousands of students, you are in a better position to make generalisations about reasons for homeschooling than me.  However, I really think generalisations about the most common reasons are the way to go.  Obviously, as you say, every student is different, but there are common patterns and it makes for a better to article for it to address the most common tendencies rather than a few isolated individual cases.
 * Regarding the statement that "if the majority of homeschooling time is given over to a particular subject, the child may miss out on a balanced general education, which could disadvantage them later in life", yes, it is my own judgement, but I'm sure I'm not alone in believing this. Schools have a mixed syllabus of mandatory subjects for a good reason: to give a basic general knowledge of various subjects & allow students to discover & develop their skills within these.  If a student opts to only study watchmaking or taxidermy, they will miss out on this to some extent.  They may be setting themselves up for a career in their chosen field, but they could also find themselves in situations where they are disadvantaged by their level of education, or they might have undiscovered skills which they never develop.  I am not saying that this is necessarily always the case, but I think it is a concern.  Hence why I mentioned it in the article.  <font color="maroon" face="Hurry Up"> w easeLOId [[Image: Weaselly.jpg|15px]]~ 16:03, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Sometimes I don't speak too bright
 * but yet I know what I'm talking about


 * Why can't we be friends?
 * Why can't we be friends?
 * Why can't we be friends?
 * Why can't we be friends?
 * War, c. 1975 or so.


 * Your contributions are fine with me. Mostly I'd like you to understand that the homeschooling issue is a lot more complicated than many folks realize.  We could gas on endlessly about the pros and cons of the public school's (America here) curriculum - about how valid and such it is to student's lives, but there is no need to do so.  I rarely remove other folks edits and see no reason to do so here.  i keep trying to bust up stereotypes and preconceptions and this is probably not a good idea.  Folks are happy with their own world views and no one really asked me for mine. Carptrash 16:54, 26 October 2008 (EDT)


 * When I think back
 * On all the crap I learned in high school
 * Its a wonder
 * I can think at all
 * And though my lack of edu---cation
 * Hasnt hurt me none
 * I can read the writing on the wall
 * Paul Simon - bout the same time as War.
 * more from Carptrash 16:58, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

<-- Gee Carp, thanks for the lyrics to Kodachrome, so enlightening. Anyway, the bigger issue here is - we are not stupid! We know many kinds of people homeschool for many reasons. However, if that "75%" stat is accurate (and I'd really like to see a cite for it besides our bible camp article!), the "other reasons" are marginalized, and the "homeschool movement" is mostly religious nutjobs. PS, I have one of their "science textbooks", and it is insane. People don't believe me when I describe it to them on the phone. That particular segment of the industry are clinical and dangerous, not interesting or different... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  01:17, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Paul Simon showed up to remind us that a public school education is not always all it is cracked up to be. The cirricula (?) are (is?) designed to produce citizens that someone else wants.  It is not so much (opinion) to create the individual that is best prepared to meet the "real world" as it is to produce folks that the "real world" wants.  And if you think that all the students who are homeschooled by right wing christian parents grow up to be just that, please reconsider.  They get out in the big picture and a lot of them realize that what they were feed was a load of crap and they adapt very quickly.  A couple of Hippie's kids I knew about who were homeschooled until the age of 12 got into public school at that point with no reading or math skills at all.  Within 6 months they had caught up with the rest of the class.  But I believe that the right to educate our own children in the manner that any of us might choose is (should be) a fundamental right of any parent.  To view it otherwise (in my opinion) is to say that Nazi Germany was correct in the way that the government chose to educate it's youth. People should not have to have their children taught things in school that they find objectionable.  i.e. evolution.  I think that evolution should be taught in public schools but parents should be allowed to pull their kids out.  I am being pulled all over the place here and can not apply my self to this discussion properly.  Perhaps later.  eek Carptrash 12:13, 28 October 2008 (EDT)

PS I caution you about feeling that ideas that you do not believe in are dangerous. That has gotten us into a world of trouble. MAny times. There are, in my opinion dangerous ideas, but they, such statements, need to be sifted very carefully.
 * See Godwin's Law. Any sentence that begins "To view it otherwise (in my opinion) is to say that Nazi Germany was correct" is barely worthy of comment.  As to the rest, my views on this are somewhere in the middle.  I believe parents have a definite right to have a say in their children's education, but I don't think that right should be absolute because I believe the child also has the right to full educational opportunities, while putting complete control of their education (or non-education) in their parents' hands could disadvantage them in life.  Some undereducated people may catch up quickly as you say, but many more will not.  <font color="maroon" face="Hurry Up"> w easeLOId [[Image: Weaselly.jpg|15px]]~ 13:17, 28 October 2008 (EDT)