RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive78

RobSmith: harassment
This hereby serves as notification for ("Nobs") that he has been accused of harassing. Proposed punishments include de-sysopping and/or permabanning.

The evidence includes this and this, and probably other evidence that LeftyGreenMario‎ can elaborate upon.

I would also like to point out that there are special circumstances in this case that in and of themselves are not usually sufficient for Coop action, but they may bear upon people's votes. The circumstances are Nob's documented racism, antisemitism, transphobia, atheophobia, support for authoritarianism, and belief in manifold conspiracy theories (Pizzagate, QAnon, deep state, and exopolitics). These are documented here. When Nobs ran for moderator, he was explicitly asked whether he supported the RationalWiki's purposes. Nobs lied because he said that he supported our purposes, which are obviously contrary to his documented beliefs. Nobs has been trolling RationalWiki for more than 9 years in the Saloon and on various talk pages without making substantial contributions to the site. You can judge for yourself whether you think he meets the criteria of a troll here. Bongolian (talk) 03:54, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we should perma ban him, I would vote for promotion from sysop. Commie Lib (talk) 04:00, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I would love to permaban him. But I guess that would be excessive. I thin he should be put into sysop revoke so that he loses his powers, can never get them back and can never run for moderator or board member ever again. Spud (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The first accusation of being inbred, I thought was metaphorical way of saying "groupthink" but he meant it literally, so he was being literal. He then brought up that Hitler was a product of inbreeding but I saw the connection between this comment his accusation of my being inbred. So, I banned him for 9 hours, fairly light ban, with the ban reason highlighting the real problem of him accusing inbreeding on me. I hope this isn't a stretch but I was really troubled and, frankly, really offended by the two exact same and specific accusations he levied against me and on Hitler's family. I know he sort of backtracked on his first one but it didn't stop him from relying on the inbred accusation again.
 * Anyhow, after the ban, he sent me a pretty offensive email calling me inbred again and saying that both my family and Hitler's family had "bowel movements", calling me a racist and bigot, whatever, the content is in the links by Bongolian. I told him pretty politely I don't want the email again, but he sent me another one laced with insults and more nonsense, so I extended the block and disabled email. So, Rob sort of clarified on his accusation on me being "inbred" saying it's a metaphor, but I don't really buy it. He was being pretty literal about the accusation, especially the first time. Anything I missed? You can check his talk page for more accusations he levied against me. What do you think? 04:26, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * This is the second email
 * "Congratulations on doing a Trump - using your official powers to settle a personal vendetta. ~ "
 * It's not as offensive and he later said it was a mistake but there isn't acknowledgement that the first one is bad. Eh. 04:29, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Blatant lies. (A) In the Mod election I thanked you for clarifying the condition was not congential. Read your own alleged evidence. (B) The Hitler inbreeding statement had nothing to do with you, until you inserted yourself. Hitler was inbred is factually true by all manner of scientific evidence. nobspiss in my ear 08:43, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, I don't lie regarding the emails. While you were correct that you didn't directly address me, I blocked you noting that you've made that same specific accusation against me which offended me because, guess what, I don't forget personal attacks easily. Now I know why you called me an inbred earlier, it's because terrible people were inbred and that's somehow related. Yes, you did acknowledge, in the election, that the claim earlier was "not conventual" because of my family background, but it's that you lobbied the inbred insult to tie in to Hitler's actions, I remembered the past insult to me and got alarmed, perhaps got triggered and blocked you, and your email response again called me inbred. It's your response to the blocking that showed you learned nothing from the first time and didn't really care that you made a personal attack to me. 19:46, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting argument. Moderators should be able to take revenge against electoral opponents for personal grudges, even after the parties agree no personel offense occured. nobspiss in my ear 20:03, 19 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I would furthermore like to point out that if LGM really wanted to abuse her mod powers, we wouldn't even be having this coop case. She could change her user right to bot, quietly ban Nobs, and move on. But instead Bongolian brought a coop case here, following longstanding and legitimate procedure. Should nobs feel like it, he may bring a coop case against any of us, lay out his case, and let the mob handle it. RoninMacbeth (talk) 06:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 *  Nobs has been trolling RationalWiki for more than 9 years in the Saloon and on various talk pages without making substantial contributions to the site. You can judge for yourself whether you think he meets the criteria of a troll here Not a reason to ban. Acei9 06:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding the case,. The Coop case is because of harassment. I only brought up the other issues because of the harassment. Bongolian (talk) 06:56, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Exopolitics? I think I pointed out to you UFOs theories are pure crap. How many lies and slanders of yours do I need to debunk? nobspiss in my ear 08:49, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

I do not support a long-term block. Sure, Nobs' attack on LGM's family was vulgar and probably warranted a short term block, but nothing more. My outlook is if you disagree with something Nobs (or anyone else for that matter) posts then don't reply to it. There is no requirement to respond to posts he puts at the bar. I also oppose the idea of Sysoprevoking him. It should really only be used on people who have abused the tool and I see no evidence that Nobs is likely to do this. Providing he stops emailing LGM, I don't think any action should be taken. --RWRW (talk) 15:07, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the short-term block thing. Mostly unconvinced on the sysoprevoke point. Nonetheless, I'd be willing to say the matter is settled if nobs apologizes and accepts a short (9 days at most) block of ostracization, to borrow a concept from Athens. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I would like to see Rob contribute to the articles of this wiki. He never really has. I think he comes here because he is lonely. The second worst thing you could do to him is ignore him. He should apologize to LGM. I suppose there should be additional threats and conditions.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's the link for Nobs' exopolitics nuttery. I suppose he can weasel out of whether he actually believes what he wrote but his interpretation is so far from rationality, it causes concern. No, I do not want Nobs to edit mainspace articles. We do not need more wordsalad, non sequiturs and argumentum ad Hillary did it. Bongolian (talk) 18:05, 19 January 2019 (UTC) It is also noteworthy what Nobs does not deny regarding conspiracy theories. Bongolian (talk) 18:18, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You outdid yourself this time, Bungholian, (a) citing Conservapedia in which I (b) refuted Qanon and labeled it a conspiracy theory. What's next? Are you going to become an apologist for Adolf Hitler and become a Hitler-inbreeding-denier like Left Green Mario has in this sordid affair? nobspiss in my ear
 * Keep going. Bongolian (talk) 19:06, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, what the actual fuck is going on? RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's LGM issuing a personal attack on me after I refuted Bongolians insane UFO throry. nobspiss in my ear 19:29, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * nobs is very rude to moderators (e.g. "Bungholian". Really?). Bongolian says he is untrustworthy as a contributor, and he has not contributed anything in years, if ever. He seems like he is gaslighting us now. I would send him to bed without a flashlight.Ariel31459 (talk) 19:40, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * How... What? First, I didn't deny it. My main point, if not conveyed clearly, was that there is absolutely no point in bringing up inbreeding as a cause for what Hitler did. I also think it's disgusting to slime Hitler's entire family for the actions of one guy that went murderous. But to also call *me* inbred and a "menace to society" and a product of inbreeding, implying I am Adolf Hitler or my family is capable of producing Adolf Hitlers because they are inbred, that's not okay at all. Also, what personal attack? You didn't link the edit properly...!?
 * Unless Rob shapes up, he is gonna have to accept a short term ban, and if he tries to unban himself, well, he shouldn't try. 19:42, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Clarification. Bongolian is the Hitler-inbreeding-denier. LGM abused her Mod powers when she you translated the fact that Hitler was inbred to herself as an excuse to block me. nobspiss in my ear 19:46, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

I personally support sysoprevoke. He can still contribute to Saloon Bar until the end of time, he just doesn't have blocking powers or powers to delete. He won't need the extra editing tools, he never edits mainspace. In addition, he won't be able to run for mod or board member, so that would save us trouble. 19:55, 19 January 2019 (UTC)


 * As an aside, LGM went on to argue the same point in agreement with me - that Hitler should not be diagnosed by armchair experts. nobspiss in my ear 19:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * That's good. At least we share something in common. 20:02, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * At root, its Bongolian's trolling of me that started all this. I hope you can learn to be more independent and impartial. nobspiss in my ear 20:09, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

I am going to vote for keeping RobSmith, because even though he may be insane, even though he seems to believe the opposite of everyone else, even though he supports deranged ideas and is often irrational, and even though he has a ridiculous signature, he is still one of our main people and the site would probably be worse off without him. I haven't seen him doing anything with his sysop tools since 2017 until he unblocked himself yesterday. Whether that is grounds for desyoping is questionable.

The idea of stopping him standing in elections is very tempting, but after RWRW turned out to be boringly good, we risk not having any anti-candidates. Call Robsmith what you like, but there no doubt that people like to argue with him, so maybe we should appoint him as Rationalwiki's official troll or something.

Robsmith only seems to edit two pages, so anyone not wants to engage him is hardly going to have a problem. His own talk page is basically an enter if you dare arena, Rob is far from the worst troll on the saloon bar, and thats a pretty shocking free for all anyway.

As for this entire incident, well it is clear that nobody can quite seem to disengage from having diametrically opposing views, so maybe if we tell RobSmith to go on holiday for a week, everyone can calm down. 20:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said before, the only grounds for desysopping is whether or not Nobs committed harassment. Everything else are special circumstances for his case. Regarding special circumstances, people also like arguing with trolls: that's not a good reason to keep the trolls around. They are a waste of time. Bongolian (talk) 20:32, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well I think it is a given that Nobs committed harassment, given that is his default setting. I am really not bothered whether he gets sysoprevoke. However I disagree that Trolls are always a waste of time, because neither Nobs' talk page or the saloon bar are on topic or in any way related to getting anything done around here. Anyone posting on either for any reason is technically wasting their time automatically, with or without someone to argue against. This is the chief reason I don't think we should ban him. 20:40, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, should we start the vote on Sysoprevoke of Nobs or would someone like to express an opinion on this before voting? Bongolian (talk) 20:45, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Wait wait. Are saying saying election campaigning is harassment? No evidence, whatsoever, has been presented that harassed LGM. nobspiss in my ear 20:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , has all of the evidence of harassment been presented that you wish to be presented? Bongolian (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Let's not cite the emails, cause it's only evidence of an illigimate block, and - by her own admission - an abuse of Mod powers. nobspiss in my ear 21:10, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You've done enough, Bongolian. You successfully baited a Mod with a promising career into your trolling exercise. Leave it at that. nobspiss in my ear 21:24, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The only thing I'm able to figure out in this affair is that nobs said something about inbreeding, Hitler, homosexuality, and LGM.
 * Also, Bongolian, given that a lot of your reasons for sysoprevoking nobs boil down to a)he believes shitty things and b)it means he can't run for mod or the Board, I'm inclined to think this is more an excuse to remove nobs from power than anything else. RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure you can make those kinds of claims based on information you don't really understand. 21:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Only evidence for harassment would be the emails though to be fair, Rob acknowledged the second one to be a mistake. 21:42, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I acknowledge the first one was harsh as well. It was my reaction to an unfair block when I thought you and I had clarified my statement during the election. nobspiss in my ear 21:49, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * All right. I think this is clearing up. I'll let you go, but please be careful next time. 21:52, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. And God bless you. OOO Hugs. nobspiss in my ear 22:01, 19 January 2019 (UTC)