Talk:Bi/pan lesbian exclusionism

Hang on
Hang on a second. If lesbians are such vile, transphobic, biphobic, intolerant and bigoted excuses for human beings, then why do our victims want to identify with us so much?🤔

Also, I'm not attracted to penii. Does that make me phallo-centric? What should I do to get over my obsession with them, then?

UninspiringNickname (talk) 17:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Nowhere in this article is it asserted that lesbians as a whole are any of those things, and in no way is that this article's goal. If you read it as such then you ought to reflect on why that is. Vandalizing the article's (currently hidden) categories doesn't constitute constructive discussion or a rebuttal. Mahboison (talk) 06:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I read it like that because of the all-too-common dogwhistles that I've seen online many, many times (of which that lesbian women are ultimately andro/phallocentric is just one example - I'm still wondering what I should do to get rid of my supposed obsession with men and/or penii 🤔). I think the draft isn't just snarky, it's aggressive. I also think the sources don't support what you wrote, you present your personal opinion as fact, don't understand what "political lesbianism" was (or sexual orientation for that matter, I think), do a few Gish-gallops, engage in non-sequiturs, more than just incidentally associate lesbianism with prejudice, and present lesbian women and bisexual women as parties at conflict with each other.
 * I read it like that because of the all-too-common dogwhistles that I've seen online many, many times (of which that lesbian women are ultimately andro/phallocentric is just one example - I'm still wondering what I should do to get rid of my supposed obsession with men and/or penii 🤔). I think the draft isn't just snarky, it's aggressive. I also think the sources don't support what you wrote, you present your personal opinion as fact, don't understand what "political lesbianism" was (or sexual orientation for that matter, I think), do a few Gish-gallops, engage in non-sequiturs, more than just incidentally associate lesbianism with prejudice, and present lesbian women and bisexual women as parties at conflict with each other.
 * I read it like that because of the all-too-common dogwhistles that I've seen online many, many times (of which that lesbian women are ultimately andro/phallocentric is just one example - I'm still wondering what I should do to get rid of my supposed obsession with men and/or penii 🤔). I think the draft isn't just snarky, it's aggressive. I also think the sources don't support what you wrote, you present your personal opinion as fact, don't understand what "political lesbianism" was (or sexual orientation for that matter, I think), do a few Gish-gallops, engage in non-sequiturs, more than just incidentally associate lesbianism with prejudice, and present lesbian women and bisexual women as parties at conflict with each other.


 * Almost nothing like this takes place in real life, it's mostly internet drama. Lesbian don't hate bi women, nor do bi women hate lesbians (we actually kinda date and marry each other). Transphobic cis lesbians do exist, but transphobic bisexual cis women do too. And bisexual cis women who call themselves lesbian can too be transphobic (EJ Levy springs to mind).
 * Almost nothing like this takes place in real life, it's mostly internet drama. Lesbian don't hate bi women, nor do bi women hate lesbians (we actually kinda date and marry each other). Transphobic cis lesbians do exist, but transphobic bisexual cis women do too. And bisexual cis women who call themselves lesbian can too be transphobic (EJ Levy springs to mind).


 * Actually, I do think I forgot what should be the main category in my "vandalism": biphobia, for which I apologise. It's not lesbian women who object the most to bisexual women calling themselves lesbian: it's the other bisexual women from whom they want to dissociate themselves.
 * Actually, I do think I forgot what should be the main category in my "vandalism": biphobia, for which I apologise. It's not lesbian women who object the most to bisexual women calling themselves lesbian: it's the other bisexual women from whom they want to dissociate themselves.


 * Honestly, I'm wondering what made you write all of this? Are you a bisexual woman who was discriminated by lesbians? If so, I'm really sorry, and would gladly have a word with them concerning that. But please don't assume lesbians are all like that. It's not entirely fair, and actually hurts both bisexual and lesbian women. UninspiringNickname (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Also: "for most of the history of the English language lesbian simply meant a feminine person who experiences attraction to other feminine people"
 * Also: "for most of the history of the English language lesbian simply meant a feminine person who experiences attraction to other feminine people"


 * Holy FSM (Sweet and Sour Sauce be upon Him), just no. Unsourced (obviously), objectively false, and plain gender-essentialist / sexist. I'm sorry, I think you really have no clue what you're going on about. UninspiringNickname (talk) 14:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)


 * If you have any suggestions for making the article read less aggressively I'd be glad to hear them. I will admit my note was a bit on the nose and more made out of personal annoyance with people whose entire conception of lesbianism is based around disliking or outright hating "men" and wasn't actually contributing to the topic at hand, which is why I removed it. I appreciate the criticism of my phrasing in the rhetoric section, admittedly I was trying a bit too hard to be inclusive and I muddied my meaning. I do apologize if it comes off as lesbophobic, but the unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of folks who I've witnessed engaging in this behaviour, especially in an organized fashion, are self-proclaimed lesbians, and there's historical precedent (political lesbianism) that explains why that is. Does that mean I think all lesbians are gatekeepers or exclusionists? No, absolutely not. Quite the opposite, this is intended to highlight an alarming behavioural outlier in the queer community and hold them to account for said behaviour.
 * As for my reason for writing all of this? I don't identify as lesbian, bi or pan or otherwise. I am pansexual (used to identify as bi) and I'm nonbinary. I've many friends and people who I follow who are also queer, some of whom personally identify as bi lesbians or pan lesbians. I'm tired of seeing people harass and throw other queer folks under the bus accusing them of being lesbophobic, biphobic, etc when all they're doing is using an ultimately harmless microlabel. There are homophobes trying very hard to erode the community's solidarity from within whom such discourse benefits greatly. In my research for this article, it was also brought to my attention that this kind of discourse can even serve as a pipeline towards more extreme exclusionist views. This compelled me to write an article to properly debunk it, much like the other articles on here regarding types of LGBT gatekeeping such as asexual exclusionism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism. Mahboison (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

This article is about Twitter arguments
It’s about shit that nobody talks about in real life, and it’s citations are almost entirely social media threads. I think we should consider deletion. 02:47, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
 * TBF most alt-right shit is also an almost exclusively online phenomenon. Vee (talk) 03:28, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't believe we have an article about how it's okay to call yourself a lesbian if you're not actually a lesbian. Fundamentally, the argument behind this effectively boils down to "words mean whatever I want whenever I want."  Which isn't necessarily without merit, but is certainly a bold take for this website made to combat and inform on pseudoscience and authoritarianism-Hastur! (talk)  16:44, 21 March 2023 (UTC)