Talk:Emily Willoughby

Nazi dinosaur art
The Nazi dinosaur art was drawn by Willoughby, not that it matters because we are going back here about 15 years but it was all her. Antrodemus (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

So, the actual Jonathan Kane contacted me
He said that much of this article is wrong. Of course, I assume Kane himself is a biased source, but he has the right to defend himself and his co-author, I belive. User, what do you have to say? I believe the best way to do this is like we talked via e-mail. Please, mention all the mistakes on the article that you find relevant. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 22:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Kane also said Kierkegaard has conducted "valuable intelligence research" so take what he says with a hefty dose of salt. Carthage (talk) 22:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Kane is very likely the be the owner of the CancelWatch substack that attacks left-wing academics. Definitely not a trustworthy source of information. Johns (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am genuinely disappointed that The Panda's Thumb enabled Kane's racialist bullshit. He claims there are genuine differences in intelligence between different ethnic and "racial" groupings while ignoring socioeconomic factors such as the effects of poverty on education and income, and then accuses critics of hereditarianism as being "science deniers." Carthage (talk) 23:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Unlike that other guy who literally came to this wiki with some concerns about his article, this seems to be an attempt to ease her very obvious white nationalist leanings. A somebody. (talk) 23:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. Kane is basically a die-hard Richard Lynn/J. Philippe Rushton fanboi. He's done some good work debunking creationists but he is too far gone into the racialist crap. It is a bad mistake to "enable" him here because he will write 1000s of words on this talk-page. Jonathan Kane was close friends with Dysklyver who was banned for doxing but back then Dysklyver had influence on here and protected Kane. Both Kane and Dysklyver are active on discord and Wikipediocracy. Off-site Kane is trying to damage RationalWiki. We should just document their racialist views, I don't think we should encourage them to post here. Johns (talk) 00:15, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The big problem with this article has already been mentioned: it's 90% 10 year old Wikidrama. This is personally one case where I'm not sure she's not notable enough to care much. She definitely takes the pro-genetic-determinism, pro-IQ-makes-a-difference stance even in public academia in that particular debate (as a Google Scholar search suggests), but the Scholar papers don't seem to cross over into "scientific racism" crank. From my perspective I don't think we need to cover every Wikipedia troll account, just like you can't cover every crank Youtuber or Twitter user. BobJohnson (talk) 00:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree, she is fairly known and the wikipedia drama is fairly recent, so I feel like the article is fine as it currently is. A somebody. (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Everyone who isn't a young-earth creationist has dunked on young-earth creationists. That isn't very impressive in my opinion. A somebody. (talk) 00:25, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that she is notable for her anti-creationist book (which has a lot of reviews), doing work for the International Society for Intelligence Research and for her involvement in the 2022 drama with the paleoart community that went viral on social media. The latter has appeared on podcasts . There is not enough on the article about her anti-creationist publications so that is probably something that should be added. I understand most people are anti-creationist but she co-authored a book on it which was widely reviewed by academics so it makes her notable. Johns (talk) 00:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm going to be honest with you, I don't give a damn that she is anti-creationist, because again that means pretty much nothing to anyone with a brain, and i'm not going to give Julius Streicher credit for being an atheist. A somebody. (talk) 00:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't be praising people for doing the bare minimum. Carthage (talk) 00:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure why we should care about this individual. There is some old wiki-drama and and she seems to have (or have had) some dubious opinions. But she doesn't seem to be in any way influential. We don't really need an article about everyone who is wrong on the internet.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:22, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more. Honestly, who gives a toss about other people's wiki drama? Spud (talk) 14:36, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And removing the part about the article about her on Wikipedia getting deleted doesn't make it any less about wiki drama. Spud (talk) 15:21, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I too have been in communication with Jonathan Kane about this page as well as his own page (Jonathan Kane). He has concern about direct engagement on RationalWiki will result in "further attacks in retaliation", but he agreed that I could quote his email with regard to information specifically about himself. His preference is that both this page and his page be deleted for lack of notability. Though notability can be a factor for deletion here (e.g. the YouTube purge of internet nobodies that we had), it is much less a factor than on Wikipedia. One concern he has is that a very large part of the Willoughby page may have been written by Oliver Smith under the account User:Boar. The evidence that Kane gave me is this CancelWatch page: here. If the evidence seems reasonable that Boar is a Smith sockpuppet, then Boar should be banned and this page at a minimum should be gone over in more detail. There are some specific criticisms of this page that Kane gave me that I will review and correct as needed if the page is ultimately kept. With regard to a specific claim about Kane on this page, he wrote to me: The article says, "Willougby's claim her ex-boyfriend (Jonathan Kane) is Jewish is a half-truth at best. Kane says he was 'raised as a Christian from birth' but has partial (1/4) Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. It appears Willoughby misleads about her boyfriend's faith and ancestry to deny accusations of neo-Nazism." The only source that's provided for any of this is a forum post in which I said that I was raised as a Christian. In the same post, I mention that I deconverted from Christianity when I was 19 (in 2002), and I now identify as a secular Jew. My ancestry actually is 50% Ashkenazi (100% of my mother's side).

Another issue that we discussed was the peculiar history of the Jonathan Kane page (and to a lesser extent to the Willoughby page), which I synopsize here: Bongolian (talk) 18:43, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Kane page created by a Smith sockpuppet (User:Begone) on March 28, 2020.
 * Content was suppressed by User:Ze (sock of User:Dysklyver) on March 29, 2020 (17,170 bytes at that point, mostly by Begone). The explanation given by Ze was "Doxing: Clear and obvious revenge attack on Wikipedia editor related to Smith affair." The content is still suppressed.
 * An after-the-fact decision (without a vote) was made to keep the content of the Jonathan Kane page suppressed on April 2, 2022. The discussion refers to deleting the page rather than suppressing the content, but the page does not appear in the deletion log.
 * The Kane page was redirected by Boar to the Willougby page (August 27, 2022).
 * Dysklyver was banned for offsite doxing in August 11, 2022, which had followed other abuses of privilege.
 * Boar created the Willoughby page on September 3, 2022.
 * Edits by an account that might be a Smith sockpuppet (User:Velociraptor) on the Willoughby page begin. (November 17, 2022)
 * The Kane page was changed back from a redirect to its own page by User:Johns (with about 7000 bytes of content) on July 12, 2023.


 * Jonathan Kane is heavily involved with the CancelWatch website and he will do anything to try and get his ex-partner's page deleted. His M.O. is to get the RationalWiki articles deleted then he believes he has won. He won't give up on this and will spend hours and hours emailing people and talking to people about it on discord. We had a similar problem with Abd Lomax a few years ago. Kane is an active member of the website Wikipediocracy and is also active on several discord servers with Emil Kirkegaard, Edward Dutton and his friend Dysklyver/Ze. He doesn't work in real life so he will dedicate his life to this. I have been emailed screenshots of their conversations in the past. It's basically a little group of alt-righters who promote misinformation about RationalWiki.
 * He may pretend to be friendly in private email but behind the scenes he is trying to damage the reputation of RationalWiki. I wouldn't trust the CancelWatch website because it cites Encyclopedia Dramatica, Kiwi-Farms, Stormfront and Abd Lomax's coldfusioncommunity as 'reliable' sources of information. Dysklyver/Ze were both the same person. Smith was promoting this idea back in 2020 and he got banned for it but he was actually correct about that. I also tried to wake people up to this fact as did another user but Dysklyver made sure we were not heard. The explanation given by Ze was entirely fictitious about doxing. The Jonathan Kane article does not contain any dox.
 * I believe both RationalWiki articles for Willougby and Kane should be kept but the Wiki drama should be kept to a minimum, like I have done on Kanes's article. It's irrelevant to who owns the Boar account, they made some good edits but it looks like a throwaway account. It's no loss if it is blocked. Johns (talk) 19:23, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've followed this discussion - The Cancel Watch and Kirkegaard substack accuse virtually anyone who criticises HBDers on this website as Oliver Smith without a shred of evidence. My account was already mentioned as being Smith on those blogs despite I am not. In fact, other blog posts by Kirkegaard claim both Johns and Bongolian are Smith as well. LMAO. It's all nonsense.

Everyone is Oliver Smith or his brother?! No actual evidence is ever presented for these claims but they end up repeated. Griffina (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As a side note, we shouldn't be calling them HBDers but instead by their proper names: Racists and Neo-nazis. A somebody. (talk) 02:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "He has concern about direct engagement on RationalWiki will result in "further attacks in retaliation"" -- My understanding is it that guy/Cancel Watch who are the malicious ones doing the attacks: https://www.pinkerite.com/2022/08/did-city-journal-and-cancel-watch-hatch.html Griffina (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The claim that I am related to Smith was originally promoted by Abd Lomax (a man who has admitted to suffering from dementia), he originally claimed Bongolian was a relative as well. It seems Kirkegaard has soaked it up hook line and sinker. It is stupid conspiracy theory. I am in my 50s, I am no relation to any other user on here. Smith has emailed me in the past but so have many other people. Abd Lomax sent me hundreds of emails. Just because I have received an email from someone does not mean I am related to them. My email is longer active. I was fed up of people emailing me. My interest in joining this website was to debunk low-carb quackery, if you check most of my edits they are on that. I have created many articles here. Until finding out Lomax was an associate of Kirkegaard I had no idea about the latter. Then I looked into these people and found they also promote a lot of quackery themselves.
 * A simple solution here is not not enable Kane, Kirkegaard or any of these other far-right idiots. Block their emails and do not let them post here, do not "enable" them or let them get to you. I couldn't care less what people write about my RationalWiki account off-site. It was fun reading what Lomax wrote 3 years ago but now it is just boring. I have a lot of articles to create on this website, so I won't be further responding here. Johns (talk) 20:15, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand. I'm mostly a newb. I joined to create the Richard Hanania page. I have no previous accounts on here although I made a few IP edits like 6 years back (I won't link to them because there's now weird people on blogs following me and making stupid claims about my identity). It's very odd what this wiki has turned into with all the sockpuppetry accusations. Griffina (talk) 20:24, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I oppose blocking Kane at this point since there are no violations of site rules. A person who is the subject of one of our pages deserves the right to set the record straight if there are errors or inaccuracies. The other inaccuracies that Kane sent me do not rise to the level of being defamatory, not by a long shot. Since he did not specifically agree to my quoting him on the other inaccuracies that he claimed, I will not post them here. He can either put up or shut up about them on the relevant talk page(s). Bongolian (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, however, it seems anyone with a page on Cancel Watch is denied a right to set the record straight. Kane is allowed to post hundreds or thousands of words here yet Cancel Watch does not allow anyone to publish a rebuttal nor do they correct the many lies and inaccuracies in their entries. Griffina (talk) 21:02, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * With regard to the notability issue for both Willoughby and Kane, I would argue that they are both quite notable for RationalWiki. Not because they wrote a book of modest popularity against creationism but because the are former young Earth creationists who wrote a book against creationism. They are comparable in that regard to Britt Marie Hermes, a naturopathic doctor who very publicly turned against naturopathy. Bongolian (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That might well be valid. But that's not what the main thrust of the page is about. If it were that, and if she were largely known of that, then I would have no problem with it.
 * All the rest of the tiny drama is pretty much "so what?".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)