RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive379

Happy End of that Goatforsaken Year 2020!
Happy New Year, everyone! So glad that we're finally rid of 2020! Now comes a new year, '21. -- Goatspeed. 08:18, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy new year! The key is to make it! The key is to make it! LION Gol Sarnitt (talk) 08:49, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ‘A fantastic year ahead’ - Boris Johnson’s New Year’s message on December 31, 2019.DanB (talk) 10:27, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy 2021 everyone! 10:40, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * DERP DE DERP 2001 DERP DERPEDE DERP DE DERPITY DERP DERP DERP DEEEEEERP! Shabi  DOO  12:00, 1 January 2021 (UTC)


 * While I wish everyone here a happy 2021, I doubt it will get much better than the mess 2020 was anytime soon. In all honesty, it doesn't even feel like a new year, but instead an extension of 2020. Moria .   08:24, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * My hope is that enough people still trust science that we'll be able to achieve herd immunity a la vaccines... -- Goatspeed. 17:59, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

How do I learn how to adult?
I want to preface this by saying I'm 29 with a BA in General studies, but that said I don't really feel like that degree will get me anyplace to be honest. Also on the spectrum.

But it's become clear to me that even though I am this age I am mentally not 29. I don't know how to do anything: insurance, buying or renting a place, or even what to do about money besides applying for some fastfood or grocery place. I am utterly ignorant of the world and life skills because everything was done for me growing up. Now I want to change but I have no clue where to start, it just feels so overwhelming. I don't know what to google or how to know if something is reliable or not. Any idea where to start?Machina (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Take it one step at a time, don't try everything at once. Your first priority is of course going to be money, depending on what your living situation is, so I would start with that.  Yes, apply for those grocery/fast-food jobs for now, if you don't have anything else lined up, because you need to have a job to get a job.  Even if you don't absolutely need the money, you absolutely need the interaction with the public.
 * This is a long list but it's only barely scratching the surface for while at work at the low end jobs...
 * Be Cheerful. You don't have to overdo it, but people want to be around happy people.  Just smile, do the "smalltalk" that we all secretly know is a bunch of BS.
 * If you aren't sure, simply follow the procedures. If you are at the cash register but a customer needs help with something, if the procedure is that you have to stay at the register, you stay at the register.
 * These low-end jobs will put you amongst all the crankiest customers. Learn some stock phrases for when they start to get out of control.  "Please hold on one moment, my supervisor may be able to help".
 * Many people will try to scam you, or they will get confused. Let's say the price is $5.25 and they hand you a $10 bill, make sure to say "Out of 10", this reminds them that it's a $10 bill and also reminds yourself, so when you hand them their change they won't be able to immediately say "BUT I GAVE YOU A TWENTY!!!".  You are also not a bank, and don't need to make change, especially if they keep changing their mind about what change they want; at that point, it may very well be a scam where they are trying to confuse you as to who owes who what.
 * Always be willing to learn new tasks. The more you know, the more useful you are.  At the same time, don't simply start doing something if you don't know how; you will make things worse if you do.
 * Cover your own ass. This is a BIG one, and not well defined.  You have to protect yourself because no one else will.  It's also going to be the most difficult, of course, but if, for example, your supervisor wants you to do something that's clearly against procedures, ask for the instructions in writing or something similar.
 * Remember, your Company is not a human, and will never care one bit about you. You could die and the Company would not shed a single tear.  But your coworkers?  Your coworkers are the ones who care.  Don't work hard to make the Company more money, work hard so you can help your coworkers and they can help you.
 * Similarly, your coworkers and you are a Crew. You protect each other, and don't fight over anything that doesn't matter.  Of course, you have to be careful not to get stepped on and taken advantage of, as per some of the previous tips. CoryUsar (talk) 02:37, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * All good advice. I'd add one thing to this as well, speaking from experience: Learn to compartementalize. While Cory already mentioned cranky customers, it cannot be understated how much better it can make you feel if you simply file away a cranky customer out of your mind once they're gone. I've had colleagues who couldn't do it and as a result got extremely emotionally stressed when dealing with cranky customers. Just remember that in the end of the day, you are just getting paid a minimum wage and that the person getting paid enough to deal with cranky customers is your supervisor, so don't be afraid to call them. 07:42, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Know when to 'stop interacting with someone' you have been interacting with (your interests have diverged, or they are (becoming) a negative person to you etc): but also be willing to 'do the small pleasantries'.
 * Most people know something you will find interesting (and vice versa) - however it can take a long time to discover it.
 * The most important 'practicalities' - a job and a bank account (preferably positive).
 * If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is: only risk money which you can afford to lose (and go for 'lesser return but sure' with your ordinary money). Anna Livia (talk) 10:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, and never be nice to a jackass. Real life isn't like the movies, simply being nice to a jerk will not get them to reveal a more sensitive side, if they see that you are weak they will rip your throat out.
 * 3% of all people are irredeemable assholes who, no matter the situation, will do everything they can to screw over everyone else, especially if someone is doing a favor for them. There are a few warning signs, for example, if a person starts suggesting you are doing something "wrong" and trying to shame you for existing.  Never let someone else try to humiliate you for existing. CoryUsar (talk) 15:39, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I suppose this advice isn't particularly helpful, but learn how to work people. Learn to recognize different types of personalities, and learn strategies that work with each. Practice strategies that can help lead yourself, and the people around you, to success. For example, say you work at a marketing business, and you and your coworkers are drafting an ad campaign for a client. You believe your idea has the best chance for success, but you know your coworkers are resistant to it. Instead of stubbornly pushing it through, try to make it seem like it's their or our idea rather than yours. Add on minor or superficial elements that are part of other's plans, and be sure to compliment people when it's due, especially around elements that fit within your own design. While I haven't worked in marketing, I've had many group projects, and I find these strategies invaluable. One other suggestion: though it may seem cliched, try reading How to Win Friends and Influence People - a lot of the stuff is common sense, but if you haven't thought of it before, it's real great stuff - and it gives you plenty of details on how to do it. IveBeenFrank (talk) 15:55, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "try to make it seem like it's their or our idea rather than yours"
 * Yes, this is really great advice, and I'm glad we thought of it. CoryUsar (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * honestly, actually getting a job is the hardest thing about employment. actually doing the job, especially on the lower rungs of work, the mcjobs, the no experience required type, probably not that much of challenge in terms of what you'd be asked to do. might be physically strenuous or tiring, if you are not used to it, might have you run of your feet, stressed. but the lower down you are in the food chain, the less employers will expect of you. its likely you wont be required to display a whole lot of initiative and only be responsible for a narrow set of tasks which they will want down in a specific way that will be explained when you start. you either pick up it up real quick, or find a new job. reliability is what is required. getting to work on time. anything customer facing is where anything nearing sentience might be required because the public are unpredictable and quite often a bunch a cunts.
 * knowledge of microsoft office products can be all you'd need for entry level office drudgery, and less likely to require a panam smile. have a clear telephone voice and learn the non committal grunt.
 * but yeh, getting a job is the tough bit. just getting a 'no thanks' in your email is often more than you ever hear back from a place. if you ever get to interview its just technique which can be learned, or if other applicants are better fit. apply for as many places as you can, someone might bite.
 * stuff like rent and insurance are a lot simpler. how much you earning will dictate all of that. it will depress the shit out you though. the local council or equivalent i would expect can give advice on housing lists and benefits and such like. you all have to do your own taxes over there dont you? thats probably a ball ache. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Getting a job is totally a numbers game. Sending out tons of personalised CVs to job announcements will eventually land you interviews. Personalising is as easy as having say 10 different versions of your CV depending on the position (maybe making a few simple tweaks) and having as many introduction letters (keep them rather short). Even if you have no obvious work experience you can make something out of your university activities or whatever. Add one personalised sentence for each company (mentioning something specific about the company like one of their "core values" mentioned on their website or something they specifically say in the job description. Find any way to get in direct contact with the HR person (if they list an email for them send them a very short email with a description and if they think you should apply). They may even ask you to directly send them your CV which helps you get notice. Oversell yourself in the CV. I can help you edit your CV if you like as I had to do recruitment work in a previous job. It's such a terrible job market I'd recommend taking whatever you can get at the moment to get some experience. As I've heard workers are entirely disposable in the US so leaving when a better opportunity comes along should be fine if they can also just let you go or fire you so easily. Being as calm as you possibly can during an interview is essential (it's okay if you are a little awkward...fretting about your awkwardness is a bigger problem). Do interviews for jobs you don't even care about as its very good to get the experience. Learn from your errors and work on not letting your mistakes (even if they are embarrassing) drag you down. Shabi  DOO  17:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "Getting a job is totally a numbers game."
 * As is getting a girlfriend. Actually, there's a lot of overlap between "dating" and "job interviewing" in terms of the skillset needed.
 * Remember, if they actually bring you in for an interview, they are already convinced you are capable of doing the job. The interview is there to confirm if you are someone they want to be around for 8 hours at a time. CoryUsar (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Purchases are easy because there are plenty of companies happy to sell to you. They'll gladly guide you through the process of initiating payments for health insurance, etc.  Finding a job without work experience is a little trickier, I have no advice there-Hastur! (talk)  02:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I know the stuff about a job more or less and I do have a bank account. But I have student loans, car payment, and phone payment that I have to make as well and it feels like I messed up too much in high school that (without my parents) I'll end up crashing and burning once they die or they can't support me anymore. All I really know is these retail jobs and even that I ain't too great with. I mostly know physical labor so I only really know how to work harder, but when I do that I am exhausted by the end of the day. I've tried a desk job at a call center and pretty much went nearly mad working there (no windows, the lunch breaks were structured poorly and the constant phone calls with customers pissed off at you all the time). I just have this periodic feeling of utter dread in my core, that it's too late. You should have listened your parents when you were young and had all these resources. Now you'll never amount to anything and no guy would ever want a loser like you. I'm starting to see how expensive things are as well. That's sort of what I meant my adulting.Machina (talk) 03:21, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Uh... health insurance is not something I'd recommend purchasing without knowing what you are doing. Stay away from that.
 * When purchasing a car, Kelly Blue Book (KBB) is your friend.CoryUsar (talk) 04:14, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In my experience, you can either opt in to one of your employer's plans and choose your deductible (low if you suffer from chronic health issues/are old, high otherwise), or choose from healthcare.gov, which is basically the same thing. If you're dead set on your current practitioner make sure they're in your new network.-Hastur! (talk)  05:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * One thing at a time. Get the job first, and if you are just starting out in some menial job, chances are you won't have health insurance.  Try... speaking to someone at social services, you might qualify for Medicaid.  It's an ugly, flawed system, but if you need it, you really need it.  Then from there is to try and find a way to skip from a menial job straight into one that pays benefits without the gap in between where you earn a bit more money but are poorer because Medicaid stops covering your basics.  More and more I'm convinced that "E Pluribus Unum" is Latin for "fuck you for working".CoryUsar (talk) 07:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, is there a casino near you? They are always hiring and they pay relatively well for the one job where you are paid to play games all day.  But, if you think the call center had angry customers, well... at least at the casino when the customers swear at you, you get the satisfaction of taking their money. CoryUsar (talk) 07:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Sad again (CW: addiction, SH)
Got no food, haven’t eaten for 2-3 days, fucked up a date, cut myself again til I had to go to hospital, got alcohol withdrawals, all my friends are too tired to deal with my bullshit. Haha. Anyone wanna just chat about nice things? 02:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Google for local food banks. See about possibly getting a professional therapist-Hastur! (talk)  02:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Have you not eaten because you have no funds, or does eating food right now not appeal to you? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, is the alcohol withdrawal a hangover, or are you a recovering alcoholic? Getting help for an addiction is never shameful, anymore than a macho guy should be ashamed of going to the doctor to fix a broken leg. CoryUsar (talk) 03:56, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I had no money, and I am slightly alcoholic so it was legit WDs for a couple days of no drink (no seizures or whatnot, just nightmares insomnia pain anxiety anger). My sister fed and watered me and the date actually wants to meet up again so life is good for now 08:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (also it’s not a “macho guy” thing seeing as I’m a trans girl. It’s just that every time I’ve tried to professionally quit drugs or get therapy, it’s been a hassle and not worked at all so it’s hard to motivate myself to try again u know, esp. when all the therapists/addiction ppl that have been recommended to me need private insurance which I cannot afford rn so I gotta stick with the slightly less good public options) 08:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Election peace and goodwill
Whatever next - ? Anna Livia (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There was once another developed nation who decided to embark on a regressive nativist path led by sleazy con artist media figure. The man was Silvio Berlusconi, the year was 1994, the country Italy.
 * Today, Italy is the "sick man of Europe". High debt, low growth, a heavy "brain drain", high youth unemployment, etc. Berlusconi has sort of faded into the background. But the politics actually have gotten worse, not better, becoming *more* derpy than Berlusconi's Forza Italia. The anti-establishment-to-a-fault "Five Star Movement" took over for a bit, and failed spectacularly at governing (as many find out, complaining about the establishment is a lot easier than becoming the establishment and actually governing). Better them, though, then the echoes-of-fascism-in-the-Italian-Alps Northern League (with the echoes-of-fascism-in-the-Italian-South party, "", currently also on the rise). No political party seems to have any idea how to fix any of Italy's structural problems. Better to rage at "elites" or "others", I suppose.
 * Trump may eventually fade out, but the populism probably won't completely, because the racism "identity politics" that led people to embrace Trump won't.
 * It is easy to envision America's lightly declining (but still of great importance) power in the world accelerated downward by the shenanigans of a certain GOP political party that seems to have no idea about what to do about fixing America's structural problems, other than rage at "elites" or "others" while the John Galts of the political party do nothing but cut taxes for the uber rich.
 * The United States 2020 is not Italy 1994, though, and is still a strong economic country with strong institutions (if bipolar and unequal, but still). It is also possible to see positive trends taking over, eventually. Trumpism isn't very popular for those under 40 (and soon it is them, not the over-70s, who will dominate American politics). Unlike that other Boomer-guided rage-without-thought election overseas (Brexit) the impact of Trumpism to the structure of American government has been more limited, as seen by the legal system delivering a style win-loss record for Trump's authoritarian-wannabe legal challenges to the election (1-60 last I checked). There are limits to the uber-John Galt wing, too, of the GOP... there is a reason why Kansas -- Kansas! -- has a  these days. Maybe the fact that Mitch McConnell opposed extra stimulus over both Trump and House Democrats has woken up more people to how the Southern Strategy has abused the common people, financially (some of the uber cultist on conservative social media laughably actually blamed Nancy Pelosi for the defeat, but on the more sane side of non-Galtian conservative social media, there sure was a lot of people pissed at Mitch). Time will tell whether the GOP softens, or becomes as crazy as the Italian neo-fascists, or many other possibilities.
 * Socially, I expect shenanigans and modest protest violence and people acting insane on Twitter as usual. Mostly the later. It's easy to be a armchair keyboard warrior then make the effort to protest. I am guessing though that shenanigans will die down after January 20th some, though, particularly if Trump acts insane on mainstream social media after then and consequently loses his megaphone. "Hopefully" at least. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:18, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Italy has had over two decades of very corrupt government. To put all the blame of Italy's current plight at the feet of Italy's turn towards right-wing populism is misguided.DanB (talk) 12:00, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Italy also had right wing populist governments for most of those two decades. Silvio Berlusconi was the PM for about 9 years total in there, before being barred from political office (I think he's eligible again). Italian politics in general are extremely dysfunctional, and top politicians tend to be corrupt regardless of party line. 12:37, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The mafia and the Roman Catholic Church have been contributing to the big problem of corruption within the Italian government for many decades. The top 15 developed countries with the lowest Corruption Perception Index (CPI) scores have a tradition of Protestantism in their countries history. The European University Institute points out that countries that have a tradition of Protestantism in their histories have less corruption compared to most countries.DunnM (talk) 13:21, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You are cherry-picking your source there. The Roman Catholic Church is also strong in much less corrupt countries like France and Ireland, after all, so I don't really buy the "protestant=less corrupt" argument (particularly in an age where American protestant evangelicalism has embraced Trump style politics). I do buy that the mafia in southern Italy (which is also a symptom of the poor justice system in Italy) exasperates the regional disparity between north and south Italy, but I would have to see if the data supports this hypothesis.
 * I actually think a more important point from your sources is that Italy lacked diverse media. Berlusconi controlled most of Italian media. This made one of the factors in your second source ("greater freedom of the press, and livelier civic associations") much less possible. This also enabled his rise much easier.
 * On this point, honestly, the United States is not in the same situation. Media is pretty diverse here still. The main issue we have in the US, IMHO, is that media is increasingly nationalized, and consequently there is an over-focus on the presidency that can strike one as absurd in context. There seems to be poor awareness of the decentralized nature of the American civic setup, and how the race for the mayor of your hometown may be in many ways more important than the presidential contest. (Such is a symptom of America's middling education system, perhaps one of the real problematic aspects of current American culture, as it produces a significant portion of people that prefer infotainment nonsense to knowledge.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:34, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

PanGalacticGargleBlaster, Read Figure 6.1 - Corruption Perception Index for a selection of developed countries, Transparency International, 2015. from the source I cited and you will see that I did not cherry pick at all. And France and Ireland have more corruption than the top 15 countries in terms of the lowest corruption and can be seen by the graph in Figure 6.1. With the exception of Singapore, all those top 15 countries have had a history of Protestantism (And Singapore was greatly affected by Protestant culture being a former colony of Britain). Granted Ireland and France are ranked 16th and 18th on the list respectively, but they are not among the top 15 countries. Furthermore, corruption is rampant in Latin American countries and in the Philippines and those countries are Catholic countries. DunnM (talk) 15:04, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, France scores worse than the top (69 on the most recent 2019 Transparency International chart), but it is the exact same score as the US, while equally Catholic Austria fares better at 77 and has actually been improving over the easily available period of 2013-2019 (from 69), whereas some of the Protestant top scorers, like Denmark, have declined (Denmark from 91 to 87).


 * I’m generally quite sceptical about the “Protestant effect”, because it seems an arbitrary characteristic to highlight, and you might as well emphasise that most high scorers are in the Northern hemisphere and especially Northern and Western Europe, or at equally extreme southern latitudes and resurrect geographic determinism (Singapore is an outlier in both cases). To claim that Singapore has somehow received a sort of “Protestant cultural legacy” needs some serious substantiation and sounds more like an attempt to explain away an outlier clearly at odds with the hypothesis. Especially since other former British colonies fare far worse.


 * Looking at the counter examples to the “Protestantism hypothesis”, you find confessionally split Germany and Catholic Luxembourg both at 9th place in 2019 with a score of 80, which is only 3 points ahead of the multiple countries in 12th place, which includes both predominantly Catholic Austria and the multi (including non) religious UK, who are, in turn, only 2-4 points ahead of Catholic Belgium (75), Ireland (74) and Shintoism/Buddhist Japan (73).


 * To take some examples of countries with sizeable Protestant populations that lie outside of the generally well of Northern European context to test out the “Protestant hypothesis”, I’d suggest Botswana, Namibia or Zambia. All are predominantly Christian with Namibia split roughly half between Protestants on one side and the combined groups of Catholic and “other Christians” on the other and Botswana and Zambia with clear Protestant majorities. With a 2019 score of 52, Namibia does far worse than Botswana at 61 but much better than Zambia whose score of 34 places it at number 113 in 2019.


 * Still, Zambia does better than another predominantly Protestant country, Papua New Guinea, which languishes at number 137 with a score of 28. Indeed, PNG’s score is the lowest in the “neighbourhood”; worse than the Solomon Isles (mainly Protestant, 42) Indonesia (mainly Islamic, 40), Timor Leste (mainly Catholic, 38), not to mention Australia (mainly Christian with a plurality of Catholics, 77). So, these kinds of examples are why, I don’t buy the “Protestant hypothesis” and that’s not even taking into account the potential issues with the methodology (it is a measure of perceptions after all and you could argue that it focuses mainly on “classic” corruption of the “money in a brown paper bag” variety, rather than more subtle quid pro quos). ScepticWombat (talk) 17:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The data indicating Protestantism leads to less corruption than Catholicism in terms of a countries history is very solid and I offer this data in support:


 * Religion, Corruption, and the Rule of Law


 * The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries


 * Will 10% more Protestants lead to less corruption?DunnM (talk) 17:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It was pretty easy to find a study that found no link (actually a few but I'll leave this as a Google Scholar exercise). A single paper is an interesting note, but "very solid" is an incorrect viewpoint, methinks. There are cultural characteristics that one can link to corruption (such as social trust) but it is my opinion that culture and religion is too varied in the world to link corruption to a particular institution or set of institutions. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * the relative wealth, high economic development, stability, and generally good governance with low levels of corruption of northerrn european countries when compared to the rest of world is pretty easily explained imho as the direct result of european empires shitting over the rest of the world, including russia's own soviet empire, along with the fallout from ww2 and the cold war that followed, dictating who had money thrown at them to rebuild, which regimes were supported or undermined and toppled, and who were able to resist the whims of superpowers.


 * africa is a case in point. prostestant or catholic is an irrelevance when the real export from their colonial masters was a masterclass in brutality and corruption learned only too well by every strongman thats arisen in the continent since. or look at south america, the home of the banana republic. its not catholicism thats caused its often volatile politics, but more the influence from their neighbour in the north whose never met a facist dictator they didnt like, but socialists and democratically elected governments? not in their backyard.


 * good governance and democratic principles dont just come out of nowhere, they take time for the necessary institutions and traditions to appear. from the colonial period and up to and through the cold war, the success of a few countries has been at the expense of everyone else. levels of corruption is just one metric where we can see the results. any kind of comparison between countries that does not take this into account is complete bullshit. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a serious message to everybody watching my update right now, PEACE AND LOVE, PEACE AND LOVE. I want to tell you - PLEASE - after the 20th of October, do not send fan mail to any address that you have. NOTHING WILL BE SIGNED after the 20th of October. If that has the date on the envelope, it’s gonna be tossed. I’M WARNING YOU - with peace and love - I HAVE TOO MUCH TO DO. So NO MORE FAN MAIL. Thank you thank you - and no objects to be signed. NOTHING. Anyway, peace and love, peace and love. 19:17, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Gotta Charge Him Now
As I wrote in the Trump-Ukraine Scandal and the Mueller Investigation, Trump likes to think of himself as a mob boss. This latest bullshit is more of the same pathetic mentality, sprinkled with just the dumbest claims and racism. The Mueller stuff likely can be avoided because of statute of limitations,(although because he pardoned so many people involved, they now cannot avoid a Grand Jury by pleading the Fifth) and the Ukraine call you can at least make an argument that this was just tough talk with an ally that is historically corrupt. But his attempts to influence the Georgia Secretary of State, clearly violate state and federal law, and with less than 15 days left in office, Executive protection ends January 20th 2021 @ 12:01 PM. And that's regardless of what the [Jim Crow] Caucus pulls tomorrow. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Who knows, maybe we'll be seeing him in some colors closer to his complexion soon... Twodots (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Jennifer Rubin, (WaPo columnist/lawyer/former Republican, has labelled the elected tRump enablers as the 'Sedition Caucus'. Bongolian (talk) 20:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Something to consider...
What the fuck is this. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 18:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A CNN link. Twodots (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You know damn well that I'm talking about 'Disease X'. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * See the Wiki articles on and . Viruses mutate, sometimes animal virus will mutate, allowing the virus to hop from animal to human. (We're in the middle of a pandemic along these lines right now, which is why this topic is pretty important). This article links increased risk of zoonosis to deforestation. They mentioned a Science magazine article. A quick Google will lead you to the Science article in question. It's a pretty good read for a drier but more detailed take on the reason why this is the case. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

What'd I miss?
I was gone for three days. Did I miss anything interesting? Twodots (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Oh nothing much, just some easily-protected-against brigading at our MMT article, one persistent little bugger edit-warring with KC and I over some dumbass personal attack he tried repeatedly to insert into a funspace article of all things while hurling childish insults at me and then seriously wondering why we protted said funspace article and keep blocking him for abusing multiple IPs. And Judge Dredd going a bit crazy with demotions just to prove a point. -- Goatspeed. 02:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see- good on ya for the anti-vandal work. I completely missed the JD drama, though, apart from a brief stint of reading as of today. From what I can tell, he went on a relatively random sysop-ing spree, yeah? Twodots (talk) 04:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yep. I think he was trying to remind us of how easy it is for potential rogue sysops to take advantage of our lack of any real guidelines or recommendations for handing out mops and the fact that they can't be unilaterally promoted back to brigade our site with ideological demotions, so we're more likely to agree with him on the CS case he recently opened involving demotions. To be fair though, I only particularly object to one of those: Catgrrl; the one whom I once opened an ATIM case about. -- Goatspeed. 17:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oof, yeah, I've seen firsthand what a troll with mod-making capabilities can do to a mobocracy... Speaking of Catgrrl, what happened to them? I haven't seen any edits from em' in a while. Twodots (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * She seems to be very inactive; she's probably just a drive-by. POV-pushers like her don't usually stick around for long. -- Goatspeed. 20:40, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Hm. Makes sense, I suppose. They're the wiki equivalent of a redshirt. Twodots (talk) 05:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Join the Union Aerospace Corporation
https://youtu.be/VbpfxzReK-Q

A video from the game Doom Eternal that may bring some laughs. Somehow I am reminded of speeches given by Trump. --New Year Zombie (talk) 02:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And, y'know, I kill the most- that's- yes, the most hellbeasts, you know I do. I'm the Doomguy, and everyone knows it. The Slayer, folks, you heard it here, I'm going to lock up the demons. Lock em' up. Twodots (talk) 04:24, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Remember, the term "Demon" is offensive. Refer to them as "Mortally Challenged". --New Year Zombie (talk) 02:45, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * All you folks at home, in your- America's beautiful, beautiful nation, unravaged- beautiful, bigly houses, and you know you don't have the demon problem at home. The liberal Antifa, you know they want to ruin America, bring the demons in- and- I- and I'm going to send em' back, send em' back. I said the "d" word, the- I'm not afraid of the coastal elites, they- I- they love me, the demons love me, cause we're stabbing em', we're slashing em', we're doing everything. And, you know, you can know, I- We've been building a very yuge gun, a big fuckin' gun, we're calling it the 9000. I'm going to rip and tear. Vote for me, vote for the ripper-er and tearer-er. Make America demon-free again, people, we're doing it again, we're reaching the goals. Big fuckin' gun. Sleepy Joe'll never do this, never say the right words. Don't talk to me about exorcism, Joe, you've never- Wait, he's not here? I- Joe's never done an exorcism, but you know me, he's- he's robbing America of the crosses, the holy water, and he's letting the demons in, he's trying to steal my yugely large fuckin' gun and- y- he can't even run DOOM. Sleepy Joe can't run DOOM, folks, you heard it here, you heard it from me, and he's stealing the election, you know there were demonic shapeshifters at the polls, we got to burn the Biden ballots- the false ones, yes, the illegal Biden ballots. Slayers, stand back and stand by, we're going to need you to slay the demons. Stand by. And have you heard about my gun, by the way? Absolutely huge, bigly hot wife Melania loves it, very shiny- Yes, I'm still talking about the BFG, Mikey- and, it's great. Big fucking gun, by the way. Big. Fuckin'. Gun. Twodots (talk) 05:24, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Democrats likely have all three branches of government for 2021 now
With the senate race likely going Dem, due to the outcome of tonight's Georgia runoffs.

It'll be interesting to see what the Dems do post Trump and post-Bernie. Trump invited an age of loose budgets and Bernie pushed the party slightly left. This should be a field-day for left-activists if the both runoffs are Dems, the world is in their hands. Young political activists are sort of catching onto the fact that Obama was a conservative trotted out as a socialist, and might actually start demanding real things from government. Also, having a Dem senate invites a lot more economic growth by pushing the Tea Party out of power. Not sure how great economic growth is though, given we are working ourselves like medieval peasants, but more equality would be nice Neiltyson1fan (talk) 05:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, I sure hope so...Twodots (talk) 05:47, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Before you over-hype this, remember how Obama had nearly 60 senators and still failed to get much of his agenda passed(even the ACA and the stimulus package were filed with compromises). With only 50 senators, why should we expect such big things? Especially when anti-majority tricks like the filibuster still exist?-Flandres (talk) 06:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Obama gave up a public option before entering office. Obama wasn't "played" by the Republicans or Dems. The Affordable Care Act we got was more or less what Obama wanted it to be. As far back as 2006, Barack Obama made it clear that he had no intention of pursuing anything but subsidized private insurance - not because it was not possible to get a public option or single payer through Congress but because he wanted to preserve the private insurance industry. audio source of Obama saying this in 2006 at 3:30
 * And there is no evidence he wanted higher than 900 billion or so in 2008, which was way below what we needed. They also brought compromises to their already low number before they were necessary (500 billion lowest). source  What we saw in those years were just normal neoliberal politics.  Larry Summers was very hawkish even on the latest stimulus and was Obama's economic adviser in the first few years, and the one who created the stimulus budget of '09. Neiltyson1fan (talk) 06:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If I accept that for the sake of argument, you realize the leadership of the Democratic party is still dominated by these so-called "neoliberals?" Biden himself has a long history of deficit hawkery, as do Schumer and Pelosi. Biden also wants to restore bi-partisanship, which will probably force him to rule out some progressive goals. Even then, we still run into the "only 50 senators" problem. Do you know what the filibuster is? Do you know about the voting records of all 50 democratic senators on these issues? Because, judging by your post here, you seem a bit naïve as to how congressional politics works.-Flandres (talk) 07:05, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no Larry Summers or former Reagan staff members that I know of, which was Obama's call. Or comically corrupt people like Rahm Emmanuel.  They seem to be more centrist/mildly-left-of-center this time around than a motley crew of conservatives and neoliberals, like Obama's team. Neiltyson1fan (talk) 07:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think a filibuster would be as successful if Moscow Mitch was minority leader, given how the Reps have become so divided, they can't even agree on whether or not they should kiss Trump's ass and let him sabotage their campaigns. -- Goatspeed. 07:18, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow, both of you are very ignorant about politics. Do you really think the filibuster will stop working because some republicans are arguing over helping Trump? You do understand sabotaging Dem presidents is pretty much the main thing the modern republican party agrees on? How will this break the filibuster, hm?-Flandres (talk)
 * It takes a simple majority vote to remove the filibuster. I think it's naive to expect full on progressive action given the small size of the majority in the House and the tie in the Senate (including a few more "Blue Dog" Senators like Joe Manchin). What it does mean, though, is that Mitch McConnell probably can't go quite as filibuster crazy, because Democrats have that option to completely nuke the filibuster if the Republicans piss off the Democrats enough to get all of them to vote for it. Partisanship is *much* higher these days compared to the Obama days, and such is more of a likely scenario.
 * The biggest benefit of this election for the Democrats, regardless of the filibuster, is cabinet positions (Mitch can't steamroll them) and judicial nominations (there is wide expectation that Stephen Breyer will retire from the Supreme Court shortly). Also, certain measures with decent centrist support can't be steamrolled/stymied by Mitch anymore just because (the $2000 stimulus being a noted example). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Just so you know, it doesn't mean Dems would control 3 branches because the judicial branch is still heavily populated with conservative judges and justices. 6 conservative justices right now. Plus there will always be some sociopathic jerk like Joe Lieberman who will sellout the Democrats for his own gain if they don't give him massive concessions, (his crucial vote why we didn't get Medicare For All under Obama.) That's why Dems needed a bigger majority in the senate to override some of the soft Democrats. Ruri Tsugumi (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Taking the Senate was super important, but this is correct. Plus, Schumer will be a very underwhelming majority leader. 15:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I am cheered-up by the news of the impending victories of the Georgia democrats. American politics is only occasionally progressive. Often what is in your glass is more important than how full it is.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:31, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * But, but, IT'S NOT OVAR YET!!! PERDUE, LOEFFLER, AND tRUMP STILL HAVE A CHANCE -- Goatspeed. 16:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * At least having Mitch McConnell simply not scheduling progressive bills anymore is a thing of the past if Schumer becomes majority leader. It's often overlooked just how much McConnell managed to halt simply by never even scheduling the discussion on it. The backlog for the senate is huge, simply because McConnell refuses debate or voting on bills that Republicans don't like. That will be gone with Schumer as majority leader, even if the man is as exciting as a dry dog fart. However to inject a bit of relativism, I do want to remind folks that Ossoff v. Perdue hasn't been called yet by most news sources (specifically AP and the NYT haven't called it yet). This is because there's technically still enough uncounted votes for the state to still elect Perdue (Ossoff has a small lead), but on the other hand most of those votes are expected to come from Dem counties so in practice it's unlikely to change. 16:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Merrick Garland will likely be AG if the dems get two seats in Georgia. I'm sure he is willing to forgive Moscow Mitch. heh...Ariel31459 (talk) 18:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Douglas Wilson article
Hey, I'm in the process of writing an article about Douglas Wilson, the pastor who debated Christopher Hitchens, owns a college in Idaho, wrote a pamphlet defending slavery, and let a known pedophile marry a student from his college. I could use some help with the formatting.
 * Yeah, sure, I'll try helping. Gimme a link and I'll pop over to it. ^-^
 * Oh, by the way: Put four tildes (this thingie -> ~ ) at the end of your posts to sign them. Twodots (talk) 19:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Holy shit
Trump supporters just stormed Capitol Hill. Thoughts? Twodots (talk) 20:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If they were anything other then Trump supporters we'd have seen an American Tiananmen square. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, duh. They were probably armed. Twodots (talk) 20:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Can't confirm anything but I've heard that shots have been fired in the building. Anyways, any idea how will this effet the certification of the election? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The certification will be delayed 1 day it seems. I doubt the end result will change. Actually we'll see if maybe this incident convinces some Republican to hops off of the Trump dictatorial train. (You can vote for America, or you can vote for Y'all Qaeda...) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The Republican media outlets are completely unprepared to deal with the consequences of their own propoganda. This might help them understand the effect they have on the minds of their audience. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I hope y'all at Conservapedia (if you're reading this) are happy. This is what Andy and RobSmith had been jerking themselves off imagining. -- Goatspeed. 20:57, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm horrified and mad as Hell at the same time. I figured there might be some riots but this is something I could never have believed would happen in U.S...a country that's still supposed to be a democracy. I'd vote for blanket ban of all the Conservapedians right now. And I'm fucking sober. If Trump doesn't get prosecuted for inciting this after Biden steps in I'll lose all faith in humanity. 21:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Given the level of polarization in USA politics this was inevitable and should not be surprising. Similar events will probably happen in the medium-near future.-Flandres (talk) 21:19, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * How do you think this will effect the certification of the election? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly, Biden will still soon be president. This has far more relevance as foreshadowing. It just underscores why, even with a Democratic white house and senate, I can't feel optimistic about the future for this nation, and I firmly believe anybody who can is engaged in willful self-delusion.-Flandres (talk) 21:25, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm going to echo what Flandres just said and SuperStrongDrinkPerson said earlier regarding the certification process. The process of counting electoral votes continues on eventually. It's just on pause right now, which doesn't actually stop anything. If the rioters are cleared out, then it will resume in the Capitol. If not, then Congress can reconvene elsewhere to count the votes. There's no time limit, so if it gets delayed even further then it just means that we're waiting longer for a result we already know is going to happen. There's no "throwing this to the states via the 12th Amendment" or anything like that. The only time limit that exists is that if Congress for some reason is unable to continue counting votes, then on January 20th Pelosi would become Acting President until Congress is able to finish and declare Biden/Harris the winners and inaugurate them. There's nothing this can do to the actual certification process itself, unless for some reason Dems decided to cave in and throw out the votes for the contested states. Which is pretty much inconceivable at this point. Mabian (talk) 21:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Is it possible that this could actually warrant the significant legal punishment of Trump and other GOP members? He did fuel the fires of conspiratorial sentiment in his base for 2 months... He kinda did this... Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Way too many variables up in the air. Couldn't prosecute for the "conspiratorial sentiment." Might be able to prosecute Trump on the "go to the building and show your anger" comments just before, but that gets into other issues about whether it actually would happen, rather than just could. GOP House members and Senators could theoretically be expelled from the chambers, but that's going to be tough because you need two-thirds of the chamber to agree. Unless there's something really direct, couldn't prosecute them for their speech, since it would still be just the "sentiment." Wouldn't reach the high bar of "incitement" needed. Mabian (talk) 22:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I can easily see Trump being prosecuted...but I imagine a lot of GOP who helped create this situation over the course of nearly a decade will slip through the cracks. Biden is the "restorer of bi-partisan unity" after all.-Flandres (talk) 22:05, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Trump being prosecuted would likely trigger more events like this. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There'll be more events like this regardless. These events right now are happening after absolutely zero action has been taken to stop them. you may as well at least try to stand up for law and order and see what happens than lie back and take it and ensure it happens again in the future. Just imagine what all the actually smart facists are thinking right now, looking at how far they can go and how much they can do without suffering a single setback or consequence. Really gotta try and do something to stop it, and throwing harsh punishments at as many people involved as possible is the only feasible way to start. Not that they will do that. But they should. X Stickman (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Biden's inauguration will not get here fast enough
Trump's joke of a presidency will finally come to an end. --New Year Zombie (talk) 01:07, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Joe Biden is 78 year old. Actuarially, if Trump fails to effectively challenge the election results, Biden has about a 5% chance of dying in any given year. Biden might not ever attend a presidential inauguration in 2021. If Kamala Harris is president, she might not got much done. She was the first to drop out of the Democrat primary. And the GOP might get control of the Senate so gridlock could further stymie the Democrats.DanB (talk) 03:18, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, nobody expects the next four years to have much, if any, good policy. But the good thing is that Trump will be gone before the month. 03:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Took the words out of my mouth. The underlying issues plaguing the USA are far too entrenched for one presidency to really fix, but Trump has become so awful simply removing him is a net positive, however small in the long run.-Flandres (talk) 04:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Weird take on gridlock stymying the American legislative process, but actually not the worst take I've seen. Weird though.  Trump is 74, from an actuary point that's not a lot safer.  Trump has been challenging the election results.  It's failed, because every time it has reached a court, wild and specious claims have failed.  There are claims, I wouldn't deny that.  If there was EVIDENCE that Trump won, however, well, his campaign would simply EFFECTIVELY USE THAT EVIDENCE.  From your narrow actuary standpoint, Trump and Biden are both too old to be president, I agree.  If Trump fails to EFFECTIVELY challenge the results, the fuck, we're living in the real world here, right?  How can you respect the problem of old age and still think it's a failing to unsuccessfully challenge reality?  There is the speciously claimed data from the armed military raid in GERMANY, who you think would have something to say, as a sovereign nation, having a raid done on its soil.  There's a laptop of Biden's son, containing critical Chinese deals and, as you would have it, child pornography, just left at a computer repair shop, because, you know, that's what you do with computers?  Can you see how I'm skeptical of the "evidence?"  Can you see how "effectively challenging" the election results looks like a nonsense statement that you chose to write?  Let me know how many percents Trump stands to survive a presidency at 74 years old.  Maniac. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:06, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You’re replying to Dan rather than me, right? 04:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Let's shop urns, cause I am ashes after that. I have no clue how to make it clear, if I didn't make it clear. That's for Duce, sorry if I interrupted? Love ya, Duce.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 08:50, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The tRump presidency is a killing joke: 300,000+ Americans killed by his incompetence and narcissism. Bongolian (talk) 05:49, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm just enjoying watching Trumpers twist themselves into knots to find ways that "TRUMP CAN STILL WIN!!!!!!" My guess is that after the electoral votes are counted and the Congress Putsch of 2020 inevitably fizzles is that they come up with a PIDOOMA interpretation of the law that allows the election to somehow be nullified and given to Trump. The Q nuts and fellow travelers will likely claim that Trump has fled the White House to protect himself from the Derp State and is working with Flynn to plot a military coup against Biden.TheEndlessVoid (talk) 06:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If that's your end of it, void, you've got a real dumb take on it. They don't believe Trump can still win.  They believe Trump already won.  And it's very, very important to them. You should not enjoy watching dipshittery.  Least of all when it surrounds the highest executive levels.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 09:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Donald Trump handled the coronavirus pandemic badly. But to place all 300,000+ at Trump's feet is absurd. Governor Andrew Cuomo and NYC Mayor DeBlasio, for example, made some mistakes that caused a lot of unnecessary deaths in New York State.DanB (talk) 12:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * On the one hand, this is true -- America's response overall has been awful, and cannot *entirely* be put on Republicans and Trump. On the other hand, especially once things settled in the summer, the Republican response stands out for its awfulness. Republicans in particular have been actively rejecting PPE and social distancing. The net result is that COVID-19 migrated from a disease that largely affected urban centers in March 2020, to a disease that is devastating the rural America that largely votes Republican too. It is not a coincidence that far more Republican politicians are catching COVID-19 than Democrat politicians. It is perhaps a bit of schadenfreude that an administration (that at first was dismissive of COVID-19 partially because it was a "blue state problem") was the leader of the "face masks assault on mah freedom!", leading to the joy of populist figures like Tucker Carlson at first being for facial masks, then being against it. The last few years have seen a rise of supposed "strongmen" who beat their chest and yell and blame and scapegoat others etc. COVID-19 in general has exposed how most of these populists suck at governing in a crisis, Trump included. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

If Biden becomes president, I doubt he will tackle the coronavirus expeditiously. The Obama Administration didn't handle the Swine Flu well. And getting many Americans to do something health wise as far as combatting the coronavirus pandemic will be like herding cats. Many Blacks/Hispanics don't trust the safety of the coronavirus vaccines and they are the most susceptible to getting coronavirus due to them living in urban areas more and having jobs where they are in contact with the public more (The majority of Blacks/Hispanics are Democrats). Many rural people will probably not want to get vaccinated either (The majority of the rural population are Republicans).DunnM (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Even if that does turn out to be the case for vaccines (which I doubt since some black politicians like Obama have already been taking it on live television to help dispel black peoples' fears of getting poisoned by racist doctors in the South and AFAIK some studies have shown that slightly more people are now willing to get vaccinated), it still wouldn't be fair to blame Biden for his people's distrust of doctors who in some parts of the country have a long history of racism when it comes to vaccinating blacks. -- Goatspeed. 19:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Some U.S. Presidents have a strong record of accomplishment before they gain office. If Biden becomes president, he will not have an exemplary record that proceeds him. I doubt Joe Biden can effectively tackle a pandemic. Obama/Biden didn't tackle the swine flu well so why should we believe Biden is capable of handling a coronavirus pandemic well? It strains reason and the historical evidence to believe so.


 * Will Joe Biden get the cooperation of Republican governors when it comes to mask mandates? Probably not. Biden's campaign floated the idea of a national mask mandate, but that floating was as successful as the Hindenburg. It quickly went down in flames.DunnM (talk) 12:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * bUt tHE dEmOcRaTs!!!!!1!11!! The GOP is a disgrace. Piss off. — Oxyaena Harass  13:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * And you see the mask mandate going down in flames as something desirable, Dunn. How very enlightened. -- Goatspeed. 21:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Excellent politicians/generals don't try to achieve the impossible and suffer needless defeats. And due to the 10th Amendment to the United States Constitution (the federal government has only those powers delegated to it by the Constitution) and the general independentmindedness of Americans, a national mask mandate was never going to be a dog that hunted. Also, the United States does not have strong science education in its public schools so many Americans are not going to understand epidemiology, etc.  Biden will never go down in the history books as a great president.DunnM (talk) 07:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * And all of this is a good thing? Hmm, overestimating the number of anti-science crazies in America and suggesting that America's War on Science is something desirable... you remind me of someone we all know very well... and also, citation fucking needed for the statistics proving that we "do not have strong science education in [our] public schools"... preferably those made within the past 2-3 years and not 20 years ago... Gentleman, I hate to do it, but on behalf of all of Atheistdom I declare VICTORY -- Goatspeed. 05:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In 2018, the USA was ranked 11th in the world for its science education. In the Olympics, no medals are given for 11th place.


 * Biden is not going to ever enact a national mask mandate passed. Due to his large ego and incompetence, Biden thought he could get such a law passed, but unfortunately for Biden it was his war on coronavirus Waterloo.DunnM (talk) 12:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

A new word I coined...
It's called "Crickidiot", a portmanteau of "cricket" and "idiot". It is a perfect representation of Hindutva followers. Before any of you say I'm an automatic racist, let me tell you that I'm not anti-Hindu, I'm anti-Hindutva. I am Jewish and I don't mind Israel existing, but I do mind human rights abuses in the area. You get the idea. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  18:59, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What annoys me about Hindutva is that tribalistic mentalities are completely incompatible with Indian spiritual doctrines. Hindutva wingnuts have sort of proved that literally any religious ideas can be weaponized and distorted into violent fundamentalism. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 19:20, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm excited to see my first case of vague unspecified "not religious, but spiritual" fundamentalist misanthropy. It might already be out there, but I haven't run into it yet.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * So... an obsessed New Ager that hates people in general? Wouldn't that include the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement? CoryUsar (talk) 19:35, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Regular-ass misanthropy includes me. No, I mean fundy style misanthropy, where you get outraged at everyone even marginally different for existing than you and insist on a dragnet of social and/or legal enforcement of your own beliefs, regardless of whether others subscribe to them or any reasonable human decency suggests otherwise.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "The fanaticism and intolerance characteristic of the three monotheisms have their justification in their gods example". ~an author I read once Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * But this thread started with a polytheistic religion exhibiting those behaviors? And I've certainly heard of awful fundy buddhist sects too.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hinduism is rather complicated, its literature makes use of many gods but a central tenet is 'absolute idealism', the idea that all reality is ultimately one mind (Brahman). But sure, repugnantly fundamentalist sects have crystallized and deserve to be recognized and condemned as such. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That... sounds a lot like the Judean People's Front sort of Left-Wing, especially hardcore Socialists/Communists/Anarchists who basically have an almost dogmatic worship of their own proposed system (complete with Prophets and Saints) and have nothing but vitriol for anyone that's just ever so slightly a different variant of Soc/Com/An. And that's not getting into the nastier forms of SJW's. CoryUsar (talk) 21:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * VHEM isn't New Age. It's hardcore environmentalism mixed with some nihilistic utilitarianism and straight up Malthusianism. 21:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * OK Cory, I was with you until that last bit about "SJWs"; what do you mean by that? What constitutes "SJW"-ness? -- Goatspeed. 21:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Most forms of social activism are good, and while "Social Justice Warrior" is mostly used as a slur or somesuch to derail an important conversation, there really are those that go out of their way to be offended at things on behalf of others, because for them, being a "Good" person is just a cover for their real desire of emotionally bullying others. CoryUsar (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't listen to this idiot. He's proven himself over and over again to have no fucking clue what the hell he's talking about. — Oxyaena Harass  23:25, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Fair enough. -- Goatspeed. 21:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I can often include tangental things in my posts, because relaxed saloon bar or w/e. CoryUsar (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, what does "w/e" mean? -- Goatspeed. 23:20, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes it is entirely fair to full out rip on the ideologies and policies of religions (it should be encouraged to rip on terrible ideas) and religious nations. There are multiple cases where criticism of religious ideology or practice is equated with hate which creates an extremely toxic environment when it comes to intellectual exchange and free speech (i.e. Muhammad cartoons = Muslim hate, criticism of Israeli racist policies = hate or even the insanity of post-modernist-extremists who equate fighting against FGM = hate) . I think what is important is to show a reasonably balanced concern both towards stupid religious ideas (there are so many) as to real hatred towards religious groups (there is also so much of it). Even acknowledging both problems make criticism of either problem more effective. I think a term like Crickidiot doesn't properly distinguish between simple Indian/Hindu culture and the more ridiculous or obscene ideas of extremist Hindu groups (which is certainly a terrible growing problem). Shabi  DOO  23:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * im not sure what cricket has to do with hindutva at all for either of the meanings of the word i can think of - a grasshopper type insect or a sport popular all over the subcontinent. is there some other meaning im not aware off that makes sense?
 * also, try saying the word out loud. as with most portmanteaus conceived via the internet, its a little inelegant sounding. it sounds clunky and contrived when spoken aloud.its not as awful as 'manufactroversy' which is just fucking hideous to my eyes and ears, but still. im not a fan AMassiveGay (talk) 01:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

"Hindutvidiot", perhaps? I mean, it's pretty much shit, but still. Twodots (talk) 01:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)


 * By "cricket" I think he's referring to the baseball-like game that is India's national game, and which many Indians are crazy about just like we Yanks are crazy about (American) football. As an Indian-American who does not follow Hinduism (and in fact, is opposed to religions as a whole), I'm not offended, as the same could also be used for a religious fanatic in South Africa, Pakistan, Australia, or NZ- though I really just speak for myself. -- Goatspeed. 03:29, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * yes i am aware of the sport named cricket - its an english game - and i am aware of ts popularity in india - their team regularly beats ours. it makes no sense though as its played by hindu, sikh, and muslim alike, there is no reason at all to link it to hindu extremism. it would be like trying to associate the kkk with baseball because   they are both american. baseball is hugely popular widespread over the us, compared to the kkk which is more fringe. linking them makes it look like the kkk is as popular as baseball, with every baseball fan seen as kkk fan. linking cricket with hindutva does the same thing. its kinda racist taking something stereotypically indian (which isnt accurate itself - cricket is popular all over the subcontinent, its popular all over the world via the commonwealth) and with it limiting who indians are to just hindu. hindutva im sure would applaud seeing as thats what they do think - india is for hindus and that sikhs or muslims are not indian.


 * ive no doubt this was not intentional, im guessing ignorance of india and not thinking it through, but its not too far removed from a more unpleasant racist slur which is intended as malicious, and thats reducing all of the peoples of south east asia to one homogenous mass by the application of one ugly label for them all regardless of origin - 'paki'.


 * why must we create a word that represents hindutva and the risk of accidental racism in the first place? we already have one, its 'hindutva'. if we must have to abuse them, then we can just say 'hindutva arseholes' or 'hindutva pricks'. the target is made is clear as is the fact you are not a fan of theirs. job done. and it doesnt risk tarring over a billion people with the same brush AMassiveGay (talk) 16:45, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Also you don't have to disclaim the fact you aren't anti-Hindu. Hindutva is a bastardization of Hinduism and is rightfully looked down on. RationalHindu (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Capitol just got stormed...
What a great way to start 2021. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * They deployed tear gas in the Senate Chamber and they shot someone. Fucking wild. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 20:34, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Considering the extreme levels of paranoia, fear and conspiracy thinking in the MAGA brigade, it is sadly, hardly surprising. We can only hope that the level of violence will be minimal. ScepticWombat (talk) 20:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Apparently the Georgia State Senate also got stormed.. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 20:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The greatest democracy in the world. They'd have you believe. With all the chanting and self congratulatory back slapping with "U S A, U S A, U S A" It must make them feel so proud to be so fucking thick. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly, with a terrible social safety net, the electoral college, the inefficacy of the legislative branch, and long term systemic racism(to name a few problems) I think the world has known the whole "greatest democracy" spiel is garbage for a long time now. This just shoves the truth in our face.-Flandres (talk) 21:42, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 2020: "I'm going to go down as the worst year of the 21st century, up yours 2001 and 2008, woo!"
 * 2021: "Hold my beer." CoryUsar (talk) 21:44, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Eh, in a state with so much white supremacy that, not only was a Jewish man elected senator in 2021, but so was a Black man with a cute doggo. There are some nice things in the world.
 * Also, one thing I do see is a split between derp and non-derp in the GOP deepening. "We should treat this episode like what it is. If this rabble had been wearing turbans instead of MAGA hats, the mob would have been met with overwhelming force. That is how it should be met." -- the fuckin' National Review. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You say "derp and non-derp republicans" like there is a group of GOP people who are NOT climate-destroying far-right douchebags. Be careful not to put these Romney style "moderates" on a pedestal because they performed the bare minimum of basic decency by not supporting a literal coup.-Flandres (talk) 23:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * At least there are a few that still believe in democracy. That matters. A far right douchebag who also is a dictator, when confronted with people they don't like, will simply make them disappear. A far right dictator douchebag won't allow any sort of free speech at all for those who complain about environmental destruction, and will ruthlessly squash the opposition, even poisoning or assassinating them. Fuck, a far right dictator douchebag would take a massive shit on Rationalwiki -- it'd disappear upon discovery. The Secretary of State of Georgia, Brad Raffensperger, may be a Republican, but when confronted with a far right douchebag who was a dictator wannabe, he didn't capitulate, but instead recorded the incomprehensible bullying and leaked it to the press. I think this is commendable, no matter how much I would disagree with other policies.
 * Now, the "pedestal" isn't very high. The GOP as a whole bears a lot of blame for this, of course. This is the end game of Rush Limbaugh style populism and the Southern strategy. They can redeem themselves to some degree by forcefully casting themselves from the shackles of Trump, and impeach him immediately, perhaps even arrest him for insurrection. Or they can surrender to the derp and forever be known as the Party of Traitors. We will see what happens here in this regard. It's going to be "interesting times" in a apocryphal Chinese proverb fashion, methinks. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A reminder that had those rioters been BLM supporters, they all would've been shot dead. In this country, you can get hit by rubber bullets and tear gas for peacefully protesting outside a church, but when you storm in the SEAT OF OUR FUCKING GOVERNMENT, bring guns, and attack others, the police will do absolutely nothing and look on. For fuck's sake, one of them replaced the American flag with a MAGA one. This is a goddamn disgrace. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  21:55, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I said in the above thread, had they been anything other than Trump supporters we would have seen an American Tiananmen square. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 21:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC) Nah, not all, but probably more than just the one woman (so far). CoryUsar (talk) 21:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * OH MOTHER OF CHRIST WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE US. PENCE, INVOKE THE 25TH AMENDMENT. 22:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * To add to this, this occurred because Trump basically called a mob strike on Pence by complaining about him on his Twitter. It started after that. Pence has every reason to call the 25th on Trump. 22:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Was the woman a pro-Trump protester or Capitol security shot by protesters? Any info? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 22:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Warning: graphic footage. She seemed to be carrying a Maga flag of some kind in a shaky cell cam a Trump protestor caught just after the shot. Artificius (talk) 22:21, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's unfortunate. Hopefully it doesn't get too much worse. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

It's incredibly ironic that Trump & Co campaigned by stoking fears of violent "ANFTIA tHUgS!!!" if Biden won, only to have his own people storm the Capitol with guns. To paraphrase the guy, all the violence I've seen has come from one side. IveBeenFrank (talk) 22:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's been pretty clear for months (if not years) that Trump and his base have never had a healthy relationship to reality. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 22:36, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * These people are completely fucking insane. In what universe does the average American citizen think that they have the right to storm the capitol? This one, apparently. Bloody domestic terrorists... Twodots (talk) 22:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * So, unpopular, but I'm gonna say it. I actually think it's OK to smash and burn federal buildings in protest and read our politician's emails.  We are American Citizens, it is technically our stuff, politicians are technically employed by us.  The problem is, this whole nutso-bonkers push on the capitol was intended to chase down politicians, individually.  The ones that didn't need called out were not, the ones that did need calling out, if the crowd was accidentally in favor of an autocracy, were.  One of the first tweets I saw was from Pelosi's office, where she left her emails up.  Now, I'm not a computer whiz, exactly, but I could get some pretty damning evidence pretty quickly with access to single email's search bar.  Unless, you know, it was always code forever and always and nobody ever fucked up the code and the only evidence I had was the code I made up.  But that's how pizza places get held up at gunpoint, so I would know better than that.
 * The next problem, is how did these protesters get into the capitol? Surely no armed American would have trouble gunning down a civilian.  I mean, that's what BLM said, right?  Security would just open fire, it's the Capitol, that's where all the bad people are, curious then that none of these people killed anybody, I mean you gotta be shitting me BLM, but let's continue.
 * The next problem is, haven't we seen these agitators before? Was there not a media influenced procession of children, in a circle, around Sandy Hook Elementary?  Nobody would touch that, but the guy with the horns has been so many places and now he's here?  Antifa plant.  Discussion over.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Finally, the absolute stupid defense, which I heard today, is that "violence as protest works, that's what these people have learned, what does it say about the left that they couldn't organize anything and these guys did it in 2 days?" It says they are close to Nazis.  No, that's too mean, I guess, it says they have rallied under a right wing populist and believe his rhetoric so much so that they would rather see an autocracy than participate in a democracy they believe is suspect.  Also, they reeeeally don't like social equality, but that's somehow not their politics.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Twitter suspends Trump for 12 hours, and warns they might give a permaban if he keeps with his latest riot-inciting rhetoric
And to think, all it took was starting a fucking insurrection to get them to consider shutting him up. Kencolt (talk) 00:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Better late than never. St. Pestage (talk) 16:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

US Presidential inauguration question
Does it have to be in Washington DC - why not Ulan Bator (presently -29C), Oymyakon (-45C), or Palmerston Island in the Pacific - a tad remote?}

Does Hosea 8:7 apply? Anna Livia (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Kinda needs to be inaugurated on US soil of some sort, you know. Mongolia, Russia, and New Zealand aren't that, unless something really strange has happened recently that no-one's heard about on the geopolitical stage. Kencolt (talk) 00:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, technically, the US embassy in Moscow is American soil... CoryUsar (talk) 02:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Moscow ain't Oymyakon. Kencolt (talk) 02:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * They could do it in one of the U.S. Minor Outlying Islands. As long as Trumpists don't have a navy, it should be remote enough. 2600:1002:B028:730E:0:5E:6AA3:8C01 (talk) 03:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Wherever 'General January' presently resides in Alaska (providing low cost, natural security), and 'only accessible by occasional supply boats/to get here from where you are by January 20 you would have to be already on your way' would be appropriate respectively (and see the 'compare and contrast Genghis Khan (with his bigly beautiful statue in Ulan Bator) and DT conversation).
 * What about the biblical quote? Anna Livia (talk) 12:24, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

== Was Trumps plan closer to a ridiculous willingness to set the country on fire just to hopefully "save a little face" or a why the fuck not try an unlikely insurrection but hey you never know and I'll never be penalised for doing it... ==

...or perhaps a bit of both? Shabi DOO  15:20, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Stupidity and malice are not mutually exclusive. Bongolian (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * He and Giuliani should be locked up for that; the latter for sexual misconduct towards a minor as well, for which Sasha Baron Cohen deserves an award for catching him in the act, even though he's British and doesn't live in America. I'll bet that on Jan 20th they'll immediately bolt for daddy Putin's protection in Moscow, where Vlady's puppet Ukrainian president is already in exile. -- Goatspeed. 20:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

About The Article On Turkey
Here are a Few Mistakes In That Article I am posting this here (again) because no one saw this (or at least replied to this) in the talk page of that article. 1. Nationalist populists are not at their strongest because the opposition won many major cities in the local elections (and when they lost the margins were small) and the youth despises Erdoğan according to the polls (which are much more accurate in Turkey compared to their American counterparts). There will be more people (obviously from the youth) voting and the economic recession is harming the government's popularity.

2.The Ottoman Empire existed for 624 years not 623.

3.While I do know this website is not objective about Cyprus you have only referred to the Turks massacring Greeks part but not the greeks massacring turks part.

4. The worst incidents in the 1960s and 70s did not come from kurds but tankies, fascists that do not call themselves fascists and the backwards thinking sharia crowd.

5. PKK is resilient because of the incompetence of the politicians. Also you people are sounding like you are doing PKK apologia. Also The TSK has massacred kurds but that does not mean Turkey is in war with the kurds.

6. "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets, and the faithful our soldiers." This poem was not written by Erdoğan. He only reads this poem during the 28 February "Postmodern Coup".

7.The Welfare Party dominated nothing until 1994 Local Elections.

8.Erdoğan's authoritarianism can be traced back to Gezi Park Protests where he used tear gas against a small group which resulted in mass protests countrywide.

(I mostly used shitty Wikipedia articles because finding other english sources is hard and I am too lazy to search for other sources.)

Sorry if I abused your eyes by misspelling stuff.

St. Pestage (talk) 15:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the last person to have made significant contributions to the Turkey page, User:DuceMoosolini, may have just left RW for good due to a dispute that has wound up on the RationalWiki:Chicken coop. If you can make the corrections to the page yourself and include reputable citations (even if it's just Wikipedia) that confirm what you're saying, then you should be fine. Bongolian (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Trumps Pardons
https://www.whio.com/news/trending/trump-pardons-manafort-stone-charles-kushner/4FND7H4IR5BZ7A52OGWK62E7XU/

So, I had a buddy tell me that Obama commuted a guy from the weather underground, so Trump's pardons don't prove shit. I would say, yeah... I guess, however...

OK, I don't like Obama either, but if you have one problematic pardon? Dude didn't shut down Guantanamo, that was a failure. And it wasn't a pardon, it was a commutation, so he just sent the guy home, still a criminal by US standards, BUT, this guy didn't have other examples. Of the 29 on this list, I would count 5 and a half as probably regular people. A huge majority was making money through one kind of fraud or the other. Tax evasion or defrauding government programs for personal gains seem to be a big favorite, there's some stealing from campaign funds in there, there's a little lying to congress, just for flavor. It's awesome that reformed long-sentence convicts are not convicts anymore, but some of them seem to have already met the prerequisites to... earn that pardon. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You think Kyle Rittenhouse will get a pardon? nobsHell to the Thief! 07:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Presidential pardons only apply to convictions in federal court, and Rittenhouse is charged by the state of Wisconsin. So the pardon question is moot, much like Trump himself. Semipenultimate (talk) 15:18, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Likewise, Trump may be able to pardon himself for every crime under the sun, however he is completely powerless to stop being charged, tried, and potentially convicted for any and all state-level offences, which he will be facing in New York. Semipenultimate (talk) 00:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Will he have time to issue pardons to those bozos who assaulted the capitol yesterday?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * at the same time as he pardoning all these dubious characters, hes been rushing a many executions as he can. probably doesnt need saying, but what a prick AMassiveGay (talk) 12:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * For nobs, No, has Rittenhouse been convicted? Welp, just checked, he put in a not guilty plea it's still a trial. Nothing to pardon yet.  Weird comparison.  What I'm concerned about is pardons of political allies and big money fraud.  People who literally stole money that tax dollars (I do pay my taxes) in the high tens if not hundreds of thousands.  Not kids shooting their guns.  The problem is the pardons of people stealing dollars.  Like, morally, is it OK to steal from the big pot of money if everybody has had to put money in the big pot?  Whether you like taxes or not, tax fraud is actually the worst.  It's saying "I enjoy the systems of government that this country affords me, like security, infrastructure, and representation, however, I refuse to contribute because I found a way to make more money for myself."  And that's under ANY tax system, I'm not idealizing or defending a tax system. These people STOLE THE DOLLARS from a tax system.  Nothing else.  And they're pardoned? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:54, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

"Antifa did the capitol raid"
So the narrative developing from the Trump media is that the capitol raid was all antifa's fault; either they were all antifa, or there were antifa agents placed there to stir up the crowd, or antifa has developed some kind of presumably lizard alien science based mind control, or whatever. My question is this: How do the actual Trump supporters who did the raid feel about that? Presumably they expected to be treated as heroes, but now they're either A) Outright called antifa agents or B) Called stupid/weak minded enough to be misled by antifa agents. I don't even know how to begin the search for this kind of information. Anyone have any ideas on how they're reacting to this? X Stickman (talk) 20:43, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You forgot C) "Blind sheeple who can't even recognize a reptilian when he's manipulating your brain". (they hate that.) Kencolt (talk) 21:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Trump supporter is "only pawn in game of life." Actual known and named Trumpers have been identified at the insurrection: Baked Alaska, "Q Shaman" (Jake Angeli; real name: Jacob Chansley), and Richard Barnett. They've arrested 69 so far, so it's going to be obvious who a large section of the perps were. Bongolian (talk) 21:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC) Bongolian (talk) 05:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The "Q Shaman" wasn't happy at all when a "Mark Burns" pastor (whoever he is) claimed he was Antifa. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Still big belief that the Q Shaman is getting paid for what he's doing, from what I've heard. There's no loyalty between the supporters.  Do some bad optics, get called antifa, disenfranchised, put on somebody's list.  Like, isn't that what happened with Mao? (That's a hypocrisy callout, not an equivocation) Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The claim is also that the police intentionally removed the barricade to allow the people in, e.g., the whole thing was a false flag. Wait, what's the term for when you plan something, but it's using your enemies' predictable stupid actions instead of your own agents?  Whatever that term is, that's the claim. CoryUsar (talk) 05:45, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As I understand it a number of people in the various photos have been identified. Trump is evidently prepared to throw them under a bus. So it will be fascinating to see what defence they present when the cases come to trial.  Trump told me to do it? I was acting in good faith?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 11:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's... rather poignant, actually. They are supporting someone who is a complete monster, and then will be very surprised to learn said monster won't lift a finger to help them when it's inconvenient.  But, I get the sense these people won't actually change all that much and mellow out; instead they'll be the same hyper-partisan conspiracy-theory assholes, but attach themselves to the polar opposite ideology of Trumpism. CoryUsar (talk) 19:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I wanna know your opinion on Cowan Thomas, a spreader of the woo
Cowan Thomas is a medic who is pretty obscure (No Wikipedia article either), but I listened to his speech on Coronavirus, while some of it might be true (I'm no germatologist, so I don't know) the remainder of the video is all about 5G, which is absurd.

imdf9BAS9jc

Apparently, he thinks 5G caused covid or something, the disease existed before 5G was even deployed, and his statement has absolutely zero basis in science.

I dug deeper into the rabbit hole to find out that he sells books about "alternative medicine".

I would likely make a draft myself, but I can't find sufficient information on him and the bullshit level he displays is rather tame, therefore, I'm not quite sure how important it'd be for him to have a written article on RW. 2A02:120B:C3C4:35C0:4C00:D832:FC08:561D (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If you want to make an article, go ahead. Besides, he could always escalate, in which case we will already have a starting point. CoryUsar (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey BON; click here: Draft:Cowan Thomas. You'll find a blank page awaiting your input. Scream!! (talk) 17:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * BON it would be fAsCinAtiNG if these cranks could actually illuminate, in a detailed fashion, the causal mechanisms responsible for their proposed theses e.g., causal mechanisms for how 5G could cause covid. Scientists, unlike cranks, have the humility to accept revisions to their theory, and the more extravagant the claim, all the more interesting for science. Fortunately cranks can simply be dismissed from within science. — Leucippus 20:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * They don't need to, they have a hotline straight to Jesus Christ himself. — Oxyaena Harass  23:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Today's events in DC
This has got to be the most humiliating day in modern US history. Those thugs who stormed the Capitol should be ashamed of themselves for using fanatical violence to voice their views. --New Year Zombie (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * And the terrorists in the other Washington who stormed the governor's mansion as a clear attempt on his and his family's lives just to "prove" that Trumpler is their Fuhrer king  god President and Culp is their governor- because they apparently can't even wrap their heads around the fact that Washington is the second most liberal state in the country, and Culp was essentially a nobody whose campaign was doomed from the start, as unlike most WA republicans he never shifted to the center to make himself actually electable in such a political climate. And those in Oregon who tried to do the same thing as the ones in DC. And all the others can go fuck themselves too. -- Goatspeed.  01:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, it's already being chalked up to Antifa activists posing as Trump supporters in a big psy-op. Heard there's proof from three people today, that's fuckin scary. Who keeps telling people this nonsense, and why do they trust these people? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * That's bull smh -- Goatspeed. 04:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * https://mashable.com/article/antifa-conspiracies-trump-mob-january-6-capitol-debunk/ https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/06/tech/protest-violence-online/index.html 04:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I am laughing so hard rn... https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-situation-update-jan-6-2021-americas-day-of-reckoning-arrives.html why is such extremist shit so funny? 04:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Like, I do want to pull the link, because I think it's bull. I pulled the link, read a bunch of the site's articles, they don't have an "about" so I agree it's bull, and I pulled the link.  But, even if it is poe, it is exactly what I'm hearing, and it's not clear poe, which would make it dangerous poe.  So I put it back in.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:40, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * OMG I forgot the joys of laughing at how stupid so many people on the right have become... you've just made my day Sqrt... -- Goatspeed. 04:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Like, that's cool to think it's funny and all, but seriously, this is a population. I agree, it's as ridiculous as trusting Trump to sail us to the edge of the flat earth on an American made yacht to save an unborn baby from devil sacrifice.  But you have to be fucking stupid to think that laughing at the other side is how politics works.  Shame on you, my guy. My Governor said he wouldn't allow COVID vaccinations to undocumented immigrants.  When somebody pointed out that means people who work in meat packing plants won't get it, he brushed it off as "Nah, meat packing plants can't legally hire undocumented immigrants, so that's not a thing."  You get how silly you're sounding?  This is a population, my guy.  They exist.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:53, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Since when does everything have to be serious? -- Goatspeed. 05:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Today, when the nonsense hit the capitol building. I know it's not as rough for you, but today.  For me; today.  I'll try to lighten up by tomorrow, but fuck, did you see what happened today?  Even if it's nonsense, that's weight we gotta carry. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:19, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I’m hoping for both serious investigations and serious consequences:


 * First off, how did Capitol security fail this badly? Was it negligence? Lack of intelligence or preparation? Lack of willingness to confront a mob willing to and actually succeeding (for a brief time) in hindering the normal, lawful, democratic process of the US Congress? This should also include investigations of any “fraternisation” between law enforcement officers and the mob (such as at least one example of a police officer apparently taking part in a selfie with a member of the mob inside the Capitol building).


 * Secondly, there’s plenty of easily available photographic evidence documenting who was part of the mob and three should all face serious charges. This was an attempt at intimidating the lawfully elected authorities and thus to subvert democracy through the blatant use of threats and force. This is terrorism and sedition and should be treated as such. Even if these people are deluded, it should be obvious to anyone that you can’t simply invade and hinder and intimidate democratically and lawfully elected representatives.


 * Unfortunately, I have a nagging suspicion that there will be a combination of a “spirit of forgiveness”, a dismissal of the mob as merely “misguided” and a general unwillingness to face up to the seriousness of the situation from major sections of both Democrats and Republicans. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "This should also include investigations of any “fraternisation” between law enforcement officers and the mob (such as at least one example of a police officer apparently taking part in a selfie with a member of the mob inside the Capitol building)." This. And any LEOs so-inclined should remember these wackos are a literal stone’s throw away from turning on them. Artificius (talk) 11:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

people are talking about sedition and treason (a word so over used in the us that its lost all meaning), but is it though? looks like a mass trespass to me. some disruption was the result and honestly all that they could have hoped for. at worse, they might have thought a little nudge would be enough to overturn the election. and they were spurred on by the sitting pres after all.

i dunno what people wanted to have happened. are we really upset there wasnt a bloodbath? im sure blm would have and have been treated far more harshly. but that just means blm are treated poorly and theres a double standard. you dont remedy that by treating everyone else poorly, you treat it with fairer treatment to blm. here, not responding with lethal force to a mob whose intent apparently did not seem to be murderous was the right thing. 4 of the mob still died though, so dunno how that goes with the police just rolling over.

with the febrile athmosphere of late we should be grateful this is all been so benign and some trespass and disruption is the worst of it. some republicans had been talking of assassinations and of uprisings - actual seditious stuff. to me that is where the real danger here. the alt right/nazi fuckwits storming the capital building is a pr exercise for them. how the authorities respond will determine how effective it will be. it might have no effect, they might lose support. if we talk it up to be more than it is, they end up looking strong, or more competent, than are. it might grow their numbers. is they police had gunned the em all down, it might have been seen as a ruby ridge like event and energise their movement like never before.

the real danger here i think is not whats just transpired, but reactions to it. there should have been universal condemnation but there hasnt. theres been too much denying that these people are far right arseholes, blaming antifa or blm. theres been too much tacit approval and too much support for the craziest conspiracy theories. its all been played out by some republicans and right wing media figures - all the usual subjects, exactly as they have played everything in the last few years. there is no end to it, that is the worry. its all entirely disingenuous, there is no evidence any of these pricks believe a word of their own shite. the 'election was stolen' is dogshit with zero evidence whats so ever. repeat often enough, loudly enough, hammer it in to the skulls of people more than happy to believe anything that makes the enemy look bad, and sooner or later the recieved wisdom is there was widespread election fraud and the liberals stole the election. the stab in the back theory was obvious bullshit too, but it was convenient bullshit for lot people and look where that led.

biden is the president now. maybe he can stop the rot. how do you repair the fault lines though? if his election is seen as illegitimate those fault lines will grow. maybe result in something worse than mass trespass. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * By definition, this was an "insurrection", as it was in support of Trump's ridiculous fraud claims. But also, this was a pretty "low-grade" one, filled with a ragtag, meme-sporting bunch of pathetic looking idiots with no real agenda other than worshiping Donald Trump. 4 people died, yes. But 3 of those people died of "medical emergencies". This is not exactly a sign of an army fit enough to storm any castle any time soon.
 * The police efforts on crowd control failed. A low energy, unfit ragtag crowd should not have been allowed anywhere near government offices. It should have been relatively easy to prevent. This needs to be investigated.
 * Yes, the real danger with this is more how Donald Trump has egged this shit on, how this type of nonsense really is what you expect when the Southern Strategy gets fully played out, and how (based on the certification vote) although this shit changed a few Republican minds, there are plenty of traitors still in the GOP.
 * I do not know how this fault line will play out, frankly. It's not like this fault line hasn't existed for the past couple hundred years in America, though. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think calling such events “mass trespassing” is a dangerous downgrading of what actually happened: A mob tried to intimidate the lawfully elected representatives into changing the result of a free and fair election and thus was actively trying to subvert the constitution and the duly constituted authorities through force. That is sedition and it is the core of the matter. That it happened in the farcical and amateurish way that is the hallmark of Trumpism shouldn’t get any of these people off the hook, neither the mob itself nor those who riled them up.


 * As I wrote earlier, no matter how deluded and delusional you are, it should be obvious to anyone that you can’t simply smash your way into your national parliament and threaten democratically elected representatives to change election results. If such actions go largely unpunished, what kind of precedent does this set? A widely publicised trial will also force the GOP enablers to confront the ultimate consequences of their politics for an extended time in the public eye, which might make it harder for them to dodge their responsibilities, even if they cannot be convicted of incitement. ScepticWombat (talk) 05:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "My Administration will not allow violent mobs incited by a radical fringe to become the arbiters of the aspects of our history that can be celebrated in public spaces." - Donald Trump executive order on June 26, 2020, which simply repeated existing law but addedd the  oogie-boogie about "anarchists and left-wing extremists". Not completely incorrect (there were a few left-wing idiot BLM protesters), but holy shit, what a bunch of fuckin' projection in retrospect. Apparently if it's Y'all Qaeda doing the public monument desecrating, Donnie won't do shit. If it's radical GOP state legislator terrorists that were part of this bullshit, Donnie won't do shit either. Also, we now learn today that this mob, which tends to parrot "Blue Lives Matter", killed a cop. Also, sensitive government property apparently was stolen. So while this was a bunch of bumbling idiots doing a half-assed coup attempt, shit did go down that needs to be punished to the full extent the law allows (and the law is *much* stronger for this here then just "trespassing"). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * all i can say is when the counryside alliance stormed parliament, no one mentioned treason AMassiveGay (talk) 23:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's probably because they were protesting an anti-hunting law, not storming the capitol in full paramilitary gear with flex cuffs. Intending to overturn an election and who knows what else. (For all the ragtag incompetent shit, there were a few serious, legitimate, full on fucking terrorists in this mob that wasn't as obvious a couple days ago.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:50, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Heard that 80 people were arrested for being involved. Hope they enjoy Club Fed. --New Year Zombie (talk) 22:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Trump permanently banned from Twitter
His account has been permanently suspended, by the looks of it. Thoughts? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 00:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Finally. Twodots (talk) 01:01, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's probably solely due to the events this week, since they cited the possibility of additional violence. However, we all know that the free speech aficionados are gonna lose their shit over this. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Michael Flynn, Sidney Powell, Ron Watkins of 8chan fame, and Ben Garrison also have been suspended. (1) Google Play booted Parler and the Apple store is threatening to. (2) Even under US free speech standards, imminent and likely incitement of violence is illegal, and I'm sure social media wants to cover their ass in case the rumors that Y'All Qaeda is planning something around Biden's inauguration are true. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 01:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You're not concerned about escalating corporate censorship? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 01:28, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * No. Social media companies, as publishers, have every right to regulate the content of their platforms. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 01:44, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * How would you go about explaining that to the hoardes of conservatives who are losing their shit over this? A significant number of people seem to be concerned about holding social media companies to a First Amendment standard. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 01:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Let's be honest here, they'd flip regardless of how long they suspended his account. At least they're accomplishing this way. Twodots (talk) 02:02, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (sarc.) Bitchute bans "naughty bits". I like content with naughty bits. It's my First Amendment Rights to see full on pornography on any platform that I want, as long as it is not illegal! Why is Bitchute violating my Constitutional First Amendment Rights for not allowing my pornography?!?!?! (/sarc.)
 * (Does this sound as ridiculous to you as it should?) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 01:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's about bloody time. -- Goatspeed. 01:30, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And nothing of value was lost Rockford the Roe (talk) 01:53, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You can tell a stupid asshole that free speech really means but to them free speech means the right to blab stupid toxic bullshit everywhere always. Stupid assholes never learn nor do they care. Shabi  DOO  02:01, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Incels
It's interesting that two of the things incels generally seem to agree with, rigid gender roles and laissez-faire capitalism, are the things causing a good chunk of the problems they're so vocal about. Really shows you how powerful right wing propaganda is. Evilatheistheathen (talk) 21:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Incels tend to lean far-left. They think a socialist society will comply with their ridiculous demands, such as a government issued girlfriend, a universal basic income (so they can stay NEET) and other stupid shit. There are some neo-Nazis and far-right, but they still demand things that would be present in a socialist society and ignore the fact that they would be gassed in a fascist society. MGTOWs tend to be moderate right, and they are by far the most rational of the others. Most are 7/10+ who have been burned in a marriage, falsey accused, watched someone else get ruined by a women, etc. Sievert 81 (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * "Far left" Eh what? I have yet to run into a far left incel. I mean bar the Government issued girlfriend(which certainly isn't left wing unless you define leftism as "when gubmint do stuff") thing I've never heard anything like what you've said. Though then again you're one of the far right conservapedia trolls that lurks around here so not being able to admit when your side is in the wrong about something is basically in the job description, I bet you also think Hitler was a leftist. Evilatheistheathen (talk) 19:02, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Incels should try having gay sex with other incels. Twodots (talk) 22:10, 29 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Some of them do; homosexual male incels are called "gaycels". If such incels are female, I think they're called "lescells" or something. -- Goatspeed. 00:42, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * They do. When they are in prison. Sex really doesn't solve anyone's problems. It's unfortunate that people keep talking about "incels" as if they constituted a well-defined group with identifiable characteristics apart from whinging about not having a partner. Ariel31459 (talk) 22:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Their whole deal is that they're pissed off about a lack of fuckies. I don't see how them getting fuckies doesn't solve the issue. :v Twodots (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Their problem isn't that they aren't getting fucked. It's that they feel entitled to fuck women who don't want to be fucked by them. And then they take their anger over the rejections to said women (and some other women often enough).
 * Most of them are probably homophobes too (just a hunch), so they probably don't see turning gay (as if that was possible for a straight person) as a solution. Incels aren't an issue to joke about. It's a bunch of (generally young) men insecure about their own lack of success with the opposite sex taking the toxic turn to violence as a "solution". 23:09, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * IIRC I saw a guy get banned from an incel forum after one of his posts talked about wanting to be with another guy. Evilatheistheathen (talk) 23:57, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * In general I see incels as the terrifying Sovereign citizen alternative to the rather comical Freeman of the land version of losers that are known as MGTOWs. 23:17, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Uh... I think I should explain why incels want rigid gender roles or capitalism or whatnot.
 * According to Incels, in the world where Big Gub'ment provides everything, women have a lot more choice in who they date and screw around with. Without the need to worry about being thrown onto the street or finding resources to raise a family, what will end up happening is that the majority of women will form sexual relationships with just a few Alphabro Fuqboi Chad guys, and only after the women have had their fun and gotten used/knocked up will they then date a NiceGuy Beta-male, if at all.  If the girl gets pregnant, well, the government pays for everything, so why not screw around (the "cock carousel", as Incels call it).  If the government were to take away welfare from single moms, plus maybe a ban on abortion, women would be much more hesitant to have sex with any Alpha-bro that isn't willing to commit, and more of the women will instead choose the more boring Beta-males because they have to face the consequences of pregnancy.
 * They don't want or oppose Capitalism, they oppose welfare, UBI, or anything else that would let a woman be independent from a NiceGuy. CoryUsar (talk) 01:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Fuck you Cory! I'm the prototype of what would become an incel without some self reflection. I live in a country with a kind of social security and universal healthcare that American leftists could only dream about. I was also a geeky introvert kid who grew into a geeky introvert 40 year old whose never had a girlfriend. And you know what? I don't blame it on society or women who didn't choose someone who was a nice guy but also was a stuttering and generally unattractive nerd. I take responsibility, well, maybe I blame my parents a bit for spanking me into submission and teaching me to never stand up for myself, but that was my parents and not the Gub'ment. And getting rid of womens' rights for self determination isn't going to get rid of incels. According to your logic, women are then just going to choose the most economically viable candidate for a spouse. Instead of the "nice" nerd who lands a menial and low paying job because he doesn't have social skills.
 * Being a nice guy isn't tied to economic success you know. Why would a woman in incel utopia choose a nice guy whose also a deadbeat? 01:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that Cory was explaining some of the worst of the current incel worldview, which honestly is a pretty fucked up one these days. Incidentally the concept "involuntary celibacy" started on the old Internet basically as kind of a support forum for awkward introverted types and was gender-inclusive (because -- gasp! -- there are lonely introverted, socially awkward women out there, too). The current incel community seems to have leapt past supporting the socially awkward into obsessions with sex, money and looks. (By and large, they have no idea how relationships actually work, and the stereotypes they promote comically don't match the real world at all.) One thing I'll note though is this is hardly a new psychological problem, in my opinion... though Sigmund Freud's explanation for the phenomenon is kind of bonkers by modern psychological standards, some of the incel characteristics match a condition Freud identified as the in the early 1900s. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 04:44, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want to say that incels are men who can't get a partner and are upset about it, then you are talking about maybe 10% of the men between 18 and 25. Some of them are gay. Some are probably trans. They don't have a lot in common. Some are terrible people for sure. When I was 20-25 I was upset from time to time about being alone. So the fuck what? It happens.Ariel31459 (talk) 01:38, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I was that shy retiring type who couldn't talk to girls - still can't really - aged 60+ - at least not to ask to get laid. And yet I do.....   booze and "I think I could fall in love with you" really helped.....   or not...  depending on which side of the bed you slept!! :) Their blame game is bullshit - and excuse to continue to be wankers - both figuratively and literally!  Aloysius the Gaul 01:52, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I used to cut myself over it. I never ever fucking thought of cutting anyone else. That's the difference between toxic masculinity as expressed by incels and depression as expressed by...well...depressed people. Fortunately I got some psychiatric help after being mugged in England (after going to the specific part of the city that we were warned to not go to, late at night and very drunk...I was looking to get killed really). The free psychiatric help I got actually helped me get over and learn to cope with my general loneliness. Yeah, I continued to abuse alcohol after a couple of months, but I stopped harming myself otherwise. And I never fucking blamed my problems on society or women in general. 02:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * But it's also a childish notion that's been so propped up over the years. Like, I don't just see a girl, think she's hot, and think "Oh damn, it's so stupid that she's not with me."  I mean, occasionally, deep down in my lizard/monkey/rabbit/human brain, I do, that's been the case when I've been in a relationship AND when I've been single.  The problem is with self-identification.  So, it's not like anyone else has to call an incel an incel.  An incel chooses to identify as an incel.  Which means it's not exactly good to call virgins incels, but it's not exactly incorrect to tell a virgin that is saying they are doomed to virginity just because of incel reasons that they are, in fact, talking like an incel.  If you want to identify as an incel, you have to recognize incel ideology is just a reaction to pick up artist ideology that actually does not work.  Incels were not a culture until people bought into the emotionless numbers game of pick up artistry and failed anyway.  Pick up artists deliberately picked up men with Autism, anxiety, and depression.  And now we're here, let's be careful with how we explain toxic masculinity.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * There are definitely people who, through a range of factors, cannot find a meaningful relationship with anyone, and also want a sexual relationship. Their big mistake is to try and find a meaningful relationship with that feeling, and the big problem is there is actually a culture where that's everything they've got. If there is somebody who says "Yes, I agree" on the internet, much easier than the actual emotional and interpersonal work it takes to form a real relationship.  Like here, it's somehow so important to explain how manly we are, as men (and I fucking did it too, the hell?) than to think about the outlier.  I don't see how that doesn't track for you inc... sex fiends.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Uh... when did I ever say this was my worldview? It's how a lot of Incels see the world.
 * As for why would women in Incel-utopia would choose the NiceGuy deadbeat? They wouldn't, obviously, but bear in mind there's a crapton of Incels who actually do make decent money, who believe that they would get a woman if welfare and so forth didn't exist.  Just where do you think Al Qaeda was recruiting all of its educated middle-class engineers?  Not being able to find a partner isn't just a problem for poor men working menial jobs, though a lack of money does make things harder.  The infamous Elliot Rodger was an upper-middle to upper class kid, if you'll recall, with a BMW his dad bought him.
 * And as for the number of sexually frustrated young men, well, 28% of men between the ages of 18 and 30 have not had sex in the past year, and that's including all the married men or those with girlfriends. CoryUsar (talk) 07:17, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Well it was about 3:30 a.m here and I had downed half a bottle of scotch in 3 hours, witch might explain some of my rant. It's generally advisable to ignore any of my emotional outbursts between 10 p.m and 5 a.m. UTC. Though I don't think welfare is particularly strong in countries that Al Qaeda operated from, so I'm not sure how that fits in with the rest of your argument. 10:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC) i thought the deal with incels is that they think they are beyond help. that improving their situation is impossible as they think they are innately repulsive in some way, and as a result they are really lean in it AMassiveGay (talk) 12:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * One can fail at gaining one's desired partner for a shit ton of reasons and highly attractive and agreeable "nice" people fail at this all the time. Reasons for not succeeding include:
 * Having back luck (bad timing, not being able to identify the right person, situated somewhere where its difficult to find a person)
 * Being overly selective
 * Not expressing your interest at all or in a clear or reasonable way
 * Lacking basic interpersonal skills
 * Not putting effort into your approach
 * Not being the other person's type
 * Not developing oneself properly
 * Not being patient and giving up too soon
 * Using the wrong approach with people (too subtle, too intense and this can depend on the person and the time)
 * Being douchey, insentitive or assholey
 * Simply not being compatible
 * Bad timing
 * Fear of taking risk or inability to get over previous bad experience
 * This list goes on and on and on. I personally believe bad luck plays an enormous part in this. I have personally found real success less likely than likely with most people (and again this includes highly eligible people who also don't find what they are looking for). Incels are incapable of realising that others suffer from this, finding that person is a number game, luck is involved, self-development is extremely important, self-pity gets you nowhere, not all people are as shity as the ones who harmed you, that what may appear as someone "harming you" may have been the other partner being reasonable and so on and so on. It also seems a lot of them look at the pick-up scene, college environment, early 20s meat market scene...all as representative of the general relationship building environment which is totally fucking ridiculous. People meet in all sorts of social situations and I know of few meaningful happy relationships that started in a "pick-up" setting (though they certainly exist and there is nothing wrong with that). It is difficult to convey any of this to incels because they are utterly loaded with stereotypes and shitty lingo and terrible youtube and reddit channels feed that hunger. Shabi  DOO  15:30, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * @Knight My note about Al Qaeda is that a lot of them are actually quite educated instead and from middle class families instead of the "ignorant backwater goat-herder" stereotype people have of them, but from my experiences in reading some of their rants and interacting with one of their recruiters (that story is much less interesting than it sounds; one of them tried to recruit me on an MMO, that's all), there is a crapton of overlap between Al Qaeda screeds and the type of stuff from Elliot Rodger. At this point, I assume there's some sort of Freudian reason for terrorism until proven otherwise.  Anyway, not all Incels have the same worldview, and this line of the topic requires a lot more explanation than I could properly give in the saloon bar.
 * @Shabi, the answer is almost always "being overly selective". I'm not exactly storming the trenches every weekend, but I've turned down a lot of women, for reasons such as "twice my age", "twice my weight", "dumber than a sack of bricks", "has a boyfriend I kinda know", "her boyfriend is RIGHT THERE and she's propositioning?!  Also her sister just sexually assaulted me", "in the middle of a nasty divorce and I'd rather not get involved in that".  Although I will say the most fun I've had in bed was with a heavier girl that I was friendly with, but if I hadn't known her I wouldn't have hooked up with her at all. CoryUsar (talk) 19:31, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I would think that "her boyfriend is right there" is not being particularly picky. But yeah...for sure for some people being picky or only dating a "10" is their stumbling block. For a lot of people "timing and luck" is the issue. For others it's a complete lack of any social skills. For some...it's being a colossal ass hole. I think it really depends on circumstances. At one point I was dating three guys named "Javier" at once. I then went through a near year long dry spell. The only thing that changed at all was simple "chance". Shabi  DOO  20:35, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Not going to shed any tears for all the colossal assholes who can't get laid, that's how the world should work. CoryUsar (talk) 00:09, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup, they're generally dirtbags. Twodots (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm kinda glad this was left up, because I've got one thing to say. Don't you have friends? Like, hyper-heteros, don't you have friends?  I had a fully flat tire, I couldn't get it off the rotor because it was rusted so hard.  I called a friend, he called a friend, we kicked it off and we learned how to do that.  I had a friend with a dead battery, she called my friend, he called me, and I went out and jumped her car.  Showed them how to jump a car, and they learned that.

Nobody fucked. Like, don't you sex fiends actually have friends? If not, it's cool, I'm not down to fuck but I'll help you out, I'm a friend. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 10:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I might take you up on that offer, just help me find someone who's cis-female, weighs less than me, is symmetrical, and doesn't mind the "somewhat-beefy strength trainer" look. CoryUsar (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Satisfactory
So... got into a new game recently, Satisfactory. Basically, it's Factorio, but if there were modern graphics, the world wasn't boring, and was made by the same people who made our favorite game, Goat Simulator. They decided not to do any procedural generation, instead trying to make the world truly unique, and it shows. It's definitely a game for people that got vaccinated as children; must make factory more efficient, more power generators, more iron smelting, unlocked a new recipe so I have to tear down everything, the factory is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding factory... CoryUsar (talk) 07:36, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I prefer Mindustry personally for my factorio clones. Making factorio into a frantic tower defense gives your designs immediate purpose and brings some much needed stress to an overly chill genre.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 11:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * This guy has some amusing videos about it. That one is part nine. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 12:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I tried satisfactory. IMHO Factorio just is... better? Satisfactory has really weird online requirements (the game ghosts your player every time you logout, so you have to kill your ghosts), the UI is just... horrendous, I'm sorry I can't describe it any better and whilst I've heard positives about the crafted map, my main memory is noticing some strangely detailed grass textures + forgettable mobs that occasionally hurt you every once in a bit and then there's the fact that the game tosses pollution in the air but doesn't do anything with it. OTOH, Factorio looks like it came directly out of the 90s, can be ran on my potato of a laptop right up until your factory becomes crazily huge, actually uses pollution as a gameplay mechanic to make enemy attacks become stronger and whilst it's personal preference (as with all of this), I give Factorio a lot of credit for basically being completely controllable with only a mouse if you so choose, whereas with Satisfactory I had to learn to switch between different tools. BTW if anyone wants a more challenging Factorio experience, go in the settings and dial down the safe zone (there's a radius from your spawn outwards in which the game won't place any bug hives which is the safe zone). The bugs attack much earlier if you do that, which leads into some interesting base designs. 13:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Factorio is well past the 1.0 stage, and I've been playing it since before it went to steam. Satisfactory is still in, like, .3.  Early access and all that.
 * As for my favorite factorio map type, I create a huge safe zone for my base, but turn the resource rarity down and richness up, and create a railworld with lots of attacks. Chugga chugga! CoryUsar (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, yes, placing stuff is much, much easier and faster in Factorio, and you don't need to worry nearly so much about power lines and power shortages. But Satisfactory does let you build three dimensionally, if you want your factory to be a giant wreck of spaghetti, and the belts are a bit weirder without inserters.  It also seems harder to have "shared" deposits for your mini-factories; in Factorio I'd have like 100 electric miners feeding massive storage chests, and a train comes to pick it all up to dump at my base with, like, 18 chests, who then feed my smelters and then it gets combined into 4 rows of iron, 4 rows of copper, plus a row of steel, another of brick, another of plastic, and another of stone, a section of my factory converts an entire row of iron into gears, another 2 rows of iron and 3 rows of copper feed my chips who then spit out 2 rows of green and 1 each of blue and red chips, also there's sulphur in there somewhere but it shares a row with something else, and then there's all the pipes.  My lubricant is kept outside the main bus since I only need it for electric engines and blue-belts, but wait, sulphuric acid was in there somewhere for my blue-chips, and... ugh, nightmares.
 * Anyway, just got to coal power, so I no longer have to constantly feed my biomass plants. I found a pure node on a hill, but there's only room for 1 water pump, so in spite of having the coal for  8 plants (more with overclocking), I can only have 3 at the moment.  Pipes are fun at least.  Waiting for geothermal; there's 2 geysers near me and they have priority in terms of power.  Kiiinda hoping we get solar power in the future, or batteries, or something like that, so power doesn't shut as soon as you go 1 joule over.  I'm looking forward to playing around with automated vehicles.  Should be fun... CoryUsar (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
 * After Harvest Moon 64, any game that asks me to optimize output for the sole gain of reconfiguring my input to optimize my output, I'm kind of over it. I played Skyrim.  I got the gloves of the pugilist, I turned it into rings and gloves and heavy armor and then I punched everyone into next week until I beat the game.  I like a more dynamic gaming experience if you're gonna let me go on something stupid.  My best Smash character is Villager.  I had to learn a lot, and have to be on top of a lot if I want to stay above 7 mil GSP.  Which is not to say I didn't literally finally finish Mario Rabbids Kingdom yesterday, but I've played so many hours of Mordhau with a short bow and a quarterstaff that I'd be concerned about dropping back in.  What's the new meta, how dynamic have those guys been?  I play MW2 sometimes, and my old strats kinda work, but purists are generally not the type of players who make mistakes.  What I appreciate most is the dynamic game, despite the set mechanics it is different every time I roll out. Otherwise, just buff til you break it, no love lost. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 07:42, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh hai, I found your old Let's Play of Skyrim... (WARNING! Lots of profanity and obscenity)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhBiNx749Zw CoryUsar (talk) 15:50, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As for the "your reward is to reoptimize input again", nah, that who thing is like crack to my mind. Satisfactory rewards exploration with alternate and often better recipes.  In Factorio, there's only one way to make a Green Circuity; 3 wire and 1 iron plate.  You never unlock other ways to manufacture it, only later components which just devour Green Circuits.  In SF, you turn iron into iron plates and rods, rods into screws, and then the plates and screws get turned into reinforced iron plates (RIP).  But then you unlocked the ability to turn iron directly into screws, so now you redo the setup a bit to just turn iron into plates and screws and then into RIP.  But then you discover how to make RIP out of wire and plates, which adds the pointless step of including copper, until you also discover how to make wire out of iron, so then you go back to your original setup and switch over to making RIP out of wire and plates... CoryUsar (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, yeah, that's the build. Like I said, after Harvest Moon 64.  I think it's cool to have that dig-in mindset.  I must be getting old. I played Kerbal Space Program, refused internet help, and after a million tries landed on the Mun, and said "Sorry, buddy, I can't get you back, but we finally made it."  I played Minecraft way back in the day, made a big aesthetic tunnel adventure that was just for looks, dressed it up with a glass bridge and hallways with glass walls and meticulously lit the whole thing with lava flow (I found a water flow and lava flow and just made it my purpose).  Once I was done my friends tore it up because that's what happens.  I heard about redstone and played it again, and tried really hard at redstone circuitry, and made one combination lock that honestly didn't work quite right but if you didn't do it so wrong it still worked.  The last time I played, I had a roommate in creative mode and he wanted me to make him a lava door.  I had never done pistons before, it took me weeks, I felt like I had to build the circuits into his castle, and moving that shit from just on the floor to a couple big vertical circuits was really, really hard.  In the end, all he had was a 3 switch combo lock with no resets and either a hallway with a lava pit that you had to jump over or a wall of lava.  I tried to look up the right way to do it afterwards, but imy work was just such a hack job converted to just...  Such a vertical hack job.  Roommate was fine with it, he just wanted to make a castle.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I grew up playing Lemmings and Warcraft doom and Sim City and Red Baron (man, that one is good get it for Dosbox, it doesn't work right on the archive). Let me put it this way, I would not be a lot of fun to play Factorio with.  I recently frustrated a buddy of mine when I was playing Dynasty Warriors while wasted just shouting "no, you take care of it, I'm the strategist!  I love these fan motherfuckers." I was not being totally dishonest.  I do love those fan motherfuckers.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 07:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Will have to get King of Fighters XV. A buddy ran the hype video for it, and Nakoruru showed up, and I'm like, "wait, was that Nakoruru?" and the guy is like "...I dunno you told me to play this video." He was just showing me his IGN feed. I like SNK games but I kinda dipped on them around 2006.  Then I found out that I slept on KOF XIV, finally, FINALLY the game is being led by the guy who did GAROU, my favorite SNK fighting game. But my game budget is conflicted.   I am big ready for Baldur's Gate 3.  I've been a Baldur's Gate player since it was a 6 cd set.  I have a friend to catch up with.  I'll get it sorted out. Gol Sarnitt (talk)
 * Don't feel that old. I used to play Harvest Moon 64 too.  As for Simcity, that is literally my goto example for when Microsoft gets unfairly blamed for another company's shitty coding; the game contained a memory leak that didn't show up on Windows 3.1 but would basically kill your computer on Windows 95... CoryUsar (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm gonna have a bloody aneurism
I came across a hoax of a guy in China who made an alien. It was made out of rubber and the guy admitted to it being a hoax, I'll provide a link to the story with photos of it. But basically, on a YouTube video from WSJ, they covered this story and many people in the comments say that "it looks real" and that "the authorities forced him to say it was a hoax" and I'm just stunned, surely people are not that ignorant right? I mean, look at the thing, it looks fake right?! I just don't understand why people are claiming it looks real when it doesn't, I'm not alone right? This does look fake because it bloody IS fake? I just don't understand it doesn't make sense to me at all, why the hell are people continuing to believe this when IT LOOKS FAKE, IT IS FAKE AND WAS PROVEN TO BE FAKE! I mean yes, I frequently get freaked over stupid bullshit but even in that state I know it's bullshit but it seems like these people are genuine. I mean, it's just a fake right, I'm not going insane? I mean, mentally unwell I am yes but I just feel so dumbfounded by this...--WMS (talk) 22:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Like Fox Mulder, these people want to believe. They'll take any "evidence" that even tangentially relates to what they happen to believe in, and take it as undeniable and irrefutable. IveBeenFrank (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * they are true believers. for them even the most obviously spurious evidence, the most clearly staged or photoshopped image is incontrovertible proof that validates their whole world view. all evidence that contradicts their beliefs is dismissed out hand as they require a standard for veracity for any contrary view to be so impossibly high nothing can shake their beliefs.


 * the adage 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' kind of applies, but for them, who see aliens literally fucking everywhere that its an anathema to them that anyone doesnt see them, the extraordinary claims are the ones claiming its nonsense.


 * for me personally though, someone says they got photos of ufo crash site, or they got a video of an alien autopsy, im gonna think its fake without even looking. i dont believe aliens have ever visited the planet, by default any photographic evidence is fake. you could have photos of real honest to god beings from another planet, and photos of the wreck of an intersteller space craft not from planet earth, if all you got is photos or a video then they are still fake.


 * i dont even know what an alien space craft or space alien looks like. how can i tell if it is real or not. i cannot say a photo does not show a being from alpha centuri because they have have an arse on their headswhile this creature has a more penis shaped growth so its an obvious fake. a real alien corpse probably would look fake to the uninitiated. with camera phone, i look fake whenever i take a selfie. and if it is fake, have you seen rogue one? its got two dead people starring in it. there is a whole industry to make complete nonsense look real, but you dont need a hollywood budget to fake a grainy amateur video, where the poor quality hides the flaws and doesnt really show you enough to be able really know for sure what it is you are looking at. put it on youtube and you got errors in uploading the the thing to explain other flaws.


 * photos are not enough. videos are not enough. you need something more. reliable witnesses who ca vouch for the photos, or who seen things first hand, or there is loads of videos of the same thing because everyone got a camera phone and instagram, better believe they gonna get selfie with a fucking space alien in it. thats how know its fake - no selfies with space aliens AMassiveGay (talk) 01:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah you guys are right, I guess I just have the problem with true believers because I don't understand them and I don't think I ever will. Also I think only recently I realised how many vocal true believers are out there and I was taken aback at their scope. Thank you for putting this into perspective, it cleared up a lot. Just for clarification's sake, to know I'm not going crazy, the "alien" in the article is just a fake right? Because the thing looks like it's made of dough or rubber.--WMS (talk) 15:28, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Draft
Alright so I decided to do a draft on this conservative Irish politician and I found a largely abandoned draft already made. I made a fairly significant amount of changes and here it is now https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Draft:Danny_Healy-Rae I'm wondering now what I got to do to get it into mainspace. Any criticism more constructive than "your draft is bad and you should feel bad" will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Evilatheistheathen (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks OK to me for mainspace. Bongolian (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate. I probably could've picked a better time to ask this since the wiki's currently on fire but fuck it eh.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 23:11, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I second Bongo's assessment- it looks good to me. :p Twodots (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate, I'm just wondering now how do I get it into mainspace?Evilatheistheathen (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

r/donaldtrump subreddit banned from Reddit, and Donald Trump suspended from Twitter.
I think it is safe to say that Donald Trump will soon go into obscurity and hopefully no school children would have to learn about that bigot. 04:19, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * r/Conservative is freaking out. 04:22, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * r/pinkpillfeminism and r/generationnazbol has been banned too (and rightly so). 04:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Parlor has been suspended from the Play Store, and Apple is threatening to suspend it from the App Store too. 04:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * https://www.reddit.com/r/TopMindsOfReddit/comments/kt6mu0/rdonaldtrump_is_gone/gik586e/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 well said 04:27, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * My natural reaction was to go to NaturalNews. I was not disappointed. 04:34, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

RED ALERT: Brace for impact. Prepare for all scenarios. Deep state cornered. Twitter, Apple, Google, Facebook DECLARE WAR on the United States of America COMMS being taken out, Twitter bans Trump, Flynn, Powell, others, Emboldened Left following in the tyrannical footsteps of Adolf Hitler Pelosi desperate to remove Trump by force before he can invoke military rescue No, Trump has NOT conceded the election... the Art of War Twitter bans Michael Flynn, Sidney Powell, too. Going all out against all the whackjobs. 04:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If you are feeling sad about the fact that you won’t be able to entertain yourself everyday with Trump Tweets, don’t worry, the TTA has all of them! 04:53, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * But this means that r/TrumpCriticizesTrump is gone now. RIP 04:55, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The storming of the Capitol demonstrates one of the greatest weaknesses of humanity: it only acts during times of crisis. Oftentimes, when the crisis comes, it is far too late. We ignored the Holocaust until the Nazis invaded France. We ignored China's plead for help in the second Sino-Japanese war until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. And now, we ignored the dangerous rhetoric of the far-right until we realized the risk of an American coup d'état and the assassination of Joe Biden. The far-right will win and we are fucked. 69.166.125.212 (talk) 04:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * So, people are going to get mad about this and it's going to be proof to them of some kind of fix. The problem is, these sites are all political tools as much as they are pictures of your food, and everyone with a brain somewhere above their asshole knows plotting against the entire US government is a bad thing, and suddenly, like as if I've been telling you guys, it's a goddamn real thing.  NONE OF THESE BUSINESSES WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED with this shit, and it's suddenly a real Goddamn thing.  There's a lot to talk about with these sites, but I'm begrudgingly with them on this one. I'd be happier if they'd shut themselves down entirely for a little bit if they were actually committed to stopping goobers from saying goober shit, but that would be asking business to not business.  It will be interesting to see if the right is less active without Trump on social media. If I get put to the gallows for voting Biden, I will be frustrated. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:45, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, in regards to the first line of this thread... No. No, he won't be forgotten, and personally I would insist that school children be taught about him-- just as they're taught about Hitler, and Stalin, and other luminaries of the horrible kind.  Santayana's famous aphorism is as applicable to Trump as it is to any other historical mistake.  I won't be around to see it (barring a truly remarkable medical breakthrough or ten), but I'd hope in fifty years our spawn will be able to look back and say, "What an ass", as most do today in regards to Adolf and Joe. Kencolt (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Antifa and violence
A right to self defense must include a right to communal self defense. Fascists and other people of their ilk represent an existential threat to marginalized identities, and so to decry Antifa as vIoLeNt kind of misses the forest for the trees. Also, to writ, there has been zero terrorist incidents or mass shootings caused by left wing protesters in the last 20 odd years. I don't give a shit if property gets damaged, property is not more important than people. Looting massive supermarkets, which hoard resources that could otherwise go to people who need them the most and are too poor to pay for them, is merely a more confrontational means of redistributing wealth and "punching up." Most of the riots and acts of violence during the post-Floyd protests were instigated by cops. No one brings that up. We will not stand idly by like sheep while pigs beat us and break us for merely protesting. — Oxyaena Harass  15:45, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * why do you people still let this user make contributions to this site en masse despite her delusions? The idiots on the capitol are indefensible, but this user is seemingly implying that violence is ok, if not encouraged, so long as the victims are the "correct" target. That mentality is functionally no different than the violent bigots' rationality. Also, I'm not going to whatabout the looters in response to the capitol violence, but since you brought it up, no, looting supermarkets is not morally defensible. The same time that you cry that you're being oppressed for "doing nothing wrong", you're at the same time advocating for the actions that get your side into trouble. And for the record, I agree that the accusations of violence from the left are overblown, that cops usually are the instigators in conflicts, and people are more important than property. But all your positions are so radicalized versions of otherwise reasonable positions that it almost sounds like a over-the-top parody of the left to castigate the right. Ignorance like this tends to sway undecided people towards the opposite direction. 69.60.33.176 (talk) 16:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * While most of us disagree with her, I still begrudgingly respect her because I think the far-leftists should be allies with us liberals against the far-right instead of doing hellfire-preaching at each other, and she occasionally says things that I can at least somewhat agree with- and while I disagree with antifa's methods and the far-left views they promote, I kind of see where Oxy's coming from; the right's overdramatization of it. -- Goatspeed. 17:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, justify why "looting supermarkets" is "morally indefensible?" Does it justify the violence of the state? Locking people away for decades just for smoking a pipe of ganja or crack? Does it justify them forcing you out of your home at gunpoint just because you can no longer afford to pay rent to the parasitic landlord? You really need to get off your liberal fucking high horse and smell the ashes. — Oxyaena Harass  17:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * See, you're making arguments against points I never made. I invite you to read the strawman article on this very site. None of that shit has anything to do with justifying looting. Stealing a TV from some hardware store isn't doing a damn thing to change how much a landlord charges. You're just a bad person pretending that other people's wrongs give you some kind of free pass to commit your own wrongs. Everyone should take responsibility for their own actions and be able to admit that economic oppression can be a thing AND to not be a dick also. And I'm pretty sure I made it quite clear I'm against authoritarianism. But left authoritarianism is not any less stupid than right authoritarianism. 69.60.33.176 (talk) 17:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Look, I view her as an obnoxious (misogynist word), but I support her right to be here so long as she doesn't violate the rules. I'm a near-absolutist when it comes to Freeze Peach.CoryUsar (talk) 17:20, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean, I agree people should be allowed to parade their dumb opinions in public forums, but aren't you not but right now going through censorship drama on this site? 69.60.33.176 (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Okay, continue to soapbox and label me a "bad person" while not offering tangible solutions to real problems. — Oxyaena Harass  17:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And I'm one of the few to vote in favor of Nobs being allowed to stay in spite of me finding his opinions detestable. I'm especially concerned about doing so now during the whole Capitol takeover nonsense, because it makes me remember right after 9/11 when many people were demanding that we expel all Muslims from the US because of the actions of a few completely unrelated Muslims.
 * As for solutions, Oxy, I (and likely many others you know) have repeatedly told you the tangible solution to your real problem...CoryUsar (talk) 17:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * People have also called you out for your ableist bullshit and needless personal attacks. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Kneejerk defenses don't solve anything. 17:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's something you and I agree on wholeheartedly. Plus, I especially am concerned about making major decisions and policy changes in the middle of crises and when emotions are running high.  That's how people decide to takeover the capitol, and that's how the PATRIOT ACT gets passed. CoryUsar (talk) 17:44, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Hey, both of you, please don't leak the drama out of the Coop. -- Goatspeed. 19:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If Oxy is too far left for this site, I am too far left for this site. I am extremely fired up sometimes, I get ineloquent, I am, to a fault, dispassionate.  But if you read what she says and don't have anything against her, she's not saying things that I even find incendiary.  This is the thing about communicating via forum.  Her voice in writing is her voice in writing.  Maybe we should respect the idea that voice has more than one output.  I'm not saying don't disagree with the girl, I'm just saying she's expressing a real take.  If that comes down to terms of service, I saw nobs back on the other day, and I loved it and I don't agree with hardly anything that guy has to say.  This isn't first amendment BS, either.  I've been on boards, I like Oxy, I think she's honest and I don't think she's saying anything she doesn't believe.  I've never seen her do anything close to dispossessing her identity or morals.  Anyway, it's called equivocation.  Instead of just saying "Democrats [antifa, or anarchists, or blm, but the people I hear talk about it say Democrats as a catch-all] burned entire cities, so what the fuck?" is kinda the point.
 * So what's the difference between what happened in the capitol and what has happened in the streets? That's a fair question.  And so, yes, the guys in the capitol were fucking up federal buildings, and just so you know, that's our stuff, as citizens, and I'm not really mad about that, nor am I mad about confederate statues getting torn down.  Protests based on instances of police brutality did not target businesses, they used public areas to congregate peacefully.  Poverty caused by a system that includes racism and has not been properly addressed is a big part of the violence in those protests.  That doesn't excuse the violence, but they are two different incitements.  Illegitimate sources of proof that say Biden could not have won the election, purported by the sitting president consistently and constantly, up until like, yesterday, being the source of this violence.  I also think it's unfair to say Democrats burned entire cities.  So, which is worse?  I guess that's up to you to decide.  I would say a good education is the best start, and maybe public schools shouldn't be funded by property tax.  But if you don't have solutions, you storm the capitol or the downtown and say "That's the same as smashing any window."  It's really important to understand the difference.  So let's talk about it.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:48, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Guess I can't rest on that. The difference is how people work in a power structure.  So, there's people who are disenfranchised, like, for real, and then there are people who are suddenly worried that this is their moment of disenfranchisement.  Like, again, go ahead and wreck the capitol up, please don't hurt anybody, but take your selfies and give your big smiles to the camera. And people got hurt, I do feel bad about that.  It's not the same as protests against literally what got these people hurt.  The whole "if it was BLM" the body count would have been higher is.... gross, but kinda worth thinking about.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 11:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Who was killed by the police during any of the BLM protests? While the police definitely used heavy handed tactics, I don't recall them actually killing the protestors en masse the way people allege would've happened if BLM had been the ones at the Capitol (though some wingnuts did do just that).  According to the Graniud, there were 25 people killed during the various protests (article is a month or two old though), and the one guy I see in that list that was shot by police was Jorge Gomez, who was running around in body armor and several guns and seemed to be some sort of Far Right nutter, incidentally.
 * As for being too Far Left or whatever, I don't have too much of a problem with that. Well, actually I do, but I ask for a bit of intellectual honesty.  I find it mildly annoying for someone to demand the entire system be restructured to fit their needs and incidentally screw me over, but hey, that's kind of what Democracy is and we are all asking for that to some extant, whether it's a cut to Service X so my tax burden can be lower, or a reduction in Tax Y and thus an increase in my tax burden so you can pay less tax, or Legal Protection Z which helps Group A to some extant but mildly irritates everyone else with added bureaucracy, etc.  What sets me off is when someone demands the entire system be restructured in a manner that would still fuck them over in addition to myself.  If someone is homeless while gainfully employed, which is actually the case in SF and NYC, seriously, half of homeless people actually do have jobs, then yes I will agree with them that the system does need an overhaul.  At this point, I do weakly support the "Fight for Fifteen" and some bare-bones Universal Healthcare system, enough that a routine surgery won't bankrupt them.  I won't agree to Communism if that's what they are demanding, but I understand where they are coming from and I can respect why they believe what they believe.  If someone is telling me to go Commie in spite of being what actual Communists would've sent to the Gulags for Social Parasitism, yeah, no, I have no patience for that. CoryUsar (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, dipshit, I'm not a fucking Marxist. No one here is advocating for the USSR style of doing things. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  23:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Wasn't talking about you, was talking in general. Not everything has to always be about you. CoryUsar (talk) 00:03, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Aarrgh, I was thinking of something clever regarding density (dumbness) and thinking things orbit around you (as things tend to whenever an object is very dense). It was some sort of somewhat humorous joke about stupidity and gravity. Alas, my brain has died on me, and the comedic phrase melts away, never to be seen again... Twodots (talk) 00:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Me or The Other One? Well, black holes, so, your options include...
 * Event Horizon, Schwarzchild Radius, Singularity, Collapsar, Gravity Well, Hawking Radiation, C, Relativistic Speed, Neutronium, Accretion Disk...
 * Collapstard? Nah, too forced.  Just go with some color imagery like, "you're so dense that NASA has to issue navigational warnings about you" or something like that. CoryUsar (talk) 00:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, many thanks... Twodots (talk) 00:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, I know, "You're so self-absorbant that Spongebob is jealous!" CoryUsar (talk) 00:28, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Draft on the Capitol riot?
Has anyone started work on an article about the recent riot at the U.S. Capitol? TheEndlessVoid (talk) 08:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

UPDATE: Creating one now. Will post link once I've got an outline made.TheEndlessVoid (talk) 08:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

It is up. It's 3:30 AM here, so I'm going to bed, but anyone who wants to contribute, feel free.TheEndlessVoid (talk) 09:29, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I added a small bit to the top of the article and I filled out the "Trump's role" section there. Feel free everyone to take a look at it and edit it how you want.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 14:55, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I just realised, Fox News is now too liberal for Conservapedia. https://conservapedia.com/Fox_News_Channel https://conservapedia.com/Left-wing_violence_in_the_Trump_era_(2021) 10:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The Bible is too liberal for that shower so I'm honestly not surprised.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 14:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

This isn't really a good forum for articles on current events. Check out the Brexit article if you want to see what may become of them.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:47, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * But it can be used to call attention to one's pet drafts, like how I was able to use it to help get Anna Livia's draft edited by people other than me so it could be moved to mainspace. -- Goatspeed. 02:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * EDIT: Oh, that kind of article. -- Goatspeed. 02:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Just a thought
If Biden had a spine he'd set up a tribunal to trial Trump Giuliani and all of them after he took office. He won't though, probably because he doesn't want to set a precedent that could fuck him in the future.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think he'll have to, other than appointing a special counsel and letting the justice department pursue any investigations currently underway or shelved by the formerly honorable Bill Barr. New York's reportedly preparing to ream the president the second he no longer has his office as a shield. Artificius (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Unless of course, tRump flees the country and jets off to his dictator buddies in either Turkey or Russia. -- Goatspeed. 01:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Biden isn't as bad as Trump, but he still has a lot of skeletons in the closet. That whole Ukraine scandal from 10 years ago?  Oh it feels like 10 years ago, COVID and Trump can't end soon enough.  Well, that was regarding BIDEN's shitstain of a son, which is part of why the attention to it got a bit muted.  Biden also had numerous sexual misconduct allegations, fewer than Trump, but again, still there.  So Biden has to be very careful about going after Trump for things he himself is also guilty of. CoryUsar (talk) 01:56, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * But if he doesn't then his Justice Department still can; after all, he says it'll be for what America wants, not what he does and doesn't want. -- Goatspeed. 02:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Any, Like, Dangerous Hot Sauce Fans?
For levity's sake, I have been very into spicy food for a long time. When I was a kid I would get sinus infections a lot, one summer I got a job painting, and everything I ate smelled and tasted like latex paint. Then I tried Tobasco, and I was like, so ready for that vinegar punch and nose run reaction. Problem came when it didn't make my nose run anymore.

I am way into stupidly hot sauces. Before I actually got into it, I would say the hotter the better, but I dipped into Dave's Insanity. I tried it a bunch of times, it's not that good. I had a friend go to the Pepper Palace and eat some hot sauce that has the same extract they put in pepper spray. I tried it. Not that good. I got the Apollo last dab and after about 3 tries I actually tasted the pepper before the capsaicin hit me, and now I'm running a little low on it. Zombie Apocalypse from Torchbearer is my absolute favorite so far, but it doesn't make my nose run anymore. A good friend of mine is running through Puckerbutt, and those taste really good but don't hit quite hard enough. Got the Pepper X trio from Heatonist, somehow Pepper X doesn't do much until after you taste everything else. Like, I love the Apollo sauce now, but 15 seconds after my first go, Pepper X wins it.

I think I need to start growing my own peppers. I live in an apartment, so I would have to work from a planter. If not a hot sauce fan, anybody grown peppers/pepper adjacent veg before? I got some pretty good cherry tomatoes in a backyard years ago, but I lived next to a community garden and a very nice lady gave me seeds and worm castings. Called them magic, if you got worm poop anything will grow, she says. I says, got hot hot sauce, never get a head cold, I says. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I love spicy stuff. My tongue doesn't have an awful lot of pain receptors. -- Goatspeed. 05:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Despite living in India, I despise spicy stuff. My tongue burns while I am literally breaking down inside. 05:42, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I love hot sauce, but I also hate taking a dump... CoryUsar (talk) 05:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * When I lived in eastern Canada they had suicide wing nights. Took me over a year to build up a tolerance. Was painful. Also had a rush. Took me an hour to get through the twelve but was an adventure. Also fucked with my stomach. Gave it up...still have stomach problems. Very bad long term habit. Also never actually enjoyed the taste of the wings, just the challenge of eating all twelve. We are silly little rabbits us humans aren't we? Shabi  DOO  06:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Not really. Humans evolved to eat cooked food, it's pretty much the only way a terrestrial carnivore can live a long life; there's reasons why badasses such as tigers and lions never really evolved to life anywhere close to as long as, say, elephants.  Suffer not the tapeworm to live.  We also evolved to eat preserved food, such as smoked fish and so forth, virtually no other animal has a method of storing meat.  Maybe vulture bees.  Those spices?  Often they act as a preservative, so the people who enjoyed spicing up the food had more food and thus more children surviving to adulthood.CoryUsar (talk) 07:24, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Umm. No I think you've missed the point. It's not silly to eat moderately hot food or use spices. What is silly is destroying your stomach with excessive quantities of picant just so you can get a slight high from the overwhelming effects. Shabi  DOO  23:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Which state do you live in India? My parents are from Tamil Nadu. Kevlarstar and his dog (Woof!) 12:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

A while ago, there was a scientific analysis of regional cookbooks and spiciness (not just chilis). They did find a correlation between degree of spiciness and geographic latitude (adjusting for altitude) of where the cookbook was from: spicier cuisines were found closer to the equator, as expected. This isn't so much evolution as adaptation. Bongolian (talk) 19:37, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It is and isn't. Humans are basically the only mammal that will eat a hot pepper, and we go out of our way to eat stuff that other mammals would find painful.  At some point, probably a bit after the mastery of Fire and thus cooking, humans must've evolved the ability to enjoy/tolerate slightly painful but harmless or even helpful foods, even if any particular recipe was the result of culture/memes instead of genes. CoryUsar (talk) 22:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The antimicrobial explanation -- spices help preserve food -- is one that I've seen around in a few places. This also explains the warmer=more spice parallel: bacteria typically thrive better in warmer climates, hence more need for spice to preserve, hence a need for greater spice tolerance. Perhaps some adaptive evolution occurred as a result: humans learned to tolerate spices which most mammals wouldn't bother with for the benefit of better preserved food. (A large portion of spices have antimicrobial properties, so this would not apply to just chilies.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That is correct, and the authors of the study found the same thing: that is basically why they adjusted latitude with altitude to get a rough estimate on rapidity of food spoilage. I can dig the article up if anyone wants it. Conversely, the food preservation and pickling (e.g., kimchi and lutefisk) tends to in colder climates where there's not a lot to eat in winter. Bongolian (talk) 22:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Treeshrews are the only other mammals that actively seek out spicy food, they have a single mutation that makes them far less sensitive than other animals; this is obviously an adaptation, since they live in tropical forests with a lot of plants high in capsaicin. As for me, I think a side effect of The Big A has left me without great sensation in many respects, so I can and frequently do eat food hot enough to make most people violently sick. I've heard of people getting thunderclap headaches from eating a single jolokia pepper (that's a shibboleth, only people who actually eat them call them by their proper name; the rest call them "ghost peppers"), and I've had 3-4 at a time with no ill effect. I'll partake in a moruga scorpion or (when I can get one) a Carolina reaper (hotter but only lingers for 2 minutes), and to kick up store brand hot sauce I mix in the hot sauces that come with warning labels. And in a happy coincidence, I happen to live a short drive away from the only dedicated hot sauce store in all of New England, so I have easy access. I definitely enjoy Dave's Insanity, for the record, I use it the way most people use Tabasco or Cholula (both of which are good in their own right, but they're flavoring for me). The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 03:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's how I use hot sauce as well. And I would say Dave's Insanity has a tomatoey kind of thing going.  I also have Dave's reaper and ghost pepper, came in a 3 pack pretty cheap for boutique sauce.  They are all fun, and it's never given me heartburn and I haven't had fire shits in a long time, so I dunno about the "bad for your health" angle.  And before I started kicking up the spice level, I used Tobasco like maniacs use ketchup.  I also got Nugget Honey, that one is really fun because it's got just enough heat that's a little stronger than a standard sauce, but it's also more than anything just really good honey, so it's a lot of fun to let people try, nobody cries or gets hurt.  I think it would be good in a green tea mixed with ginger or turmeric. I don't have much of a sweet tooth, so I've been giving it out more than I've been using it.  But it's everything honey needed, I cannot believe how well it works.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:05, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I had heard from somebody back in the day that spice was used to cover up the taste of food spoilage. I mean, my parents think black pepper has a kick to it and I've known plenty of people who will not eat anything green.  I don't remember who said it, but I know whoever said it was tying it to warmer, closer to equitorial climates.  Were they just a little off (oh my goodness, I didn't plan that), or is there anything in that paper that addresses spicing through spoilage as opposed to preventing it?  Gol Sarnitt (talk)
 * That does make sense, as a lot of spices initially became popular that way. Having experimented some, the pungence of capsaicin can overwhelm a lot of other flavors; if you've ever had goat without any other seasonings, you'd be stunned to think anything could overpower it until you add the right hot sauce. Though I will say, the peppers themselves go bad surprisingly quickly unless you really dry them out (but if you do dry them they last for years); so whatever preservative effects they have certainly don't extend to the peppers themselves. The other fun thing to note is that birds have no reaction to capsaicin, and since their digestive tracts (unlike mammals) are incapable of breaking down the seeds they make for optimal spreaders. Treeshrews and humans are the only animals that have upped the ante, and in humans anyway it is (much like caffeine) something of an accident in evolution. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 04:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Incompetent Emergency Service Workers
Yesterday in town when me and my family were going to the bank there was an ambulance parked in front of a house.

A paramedic stepped out of the ambulance and was not wearing a mask! Did that paramedic forget about COVID or was he a conspiracy theorist? --New Year Zombie (talk) 00:45, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * He was probably just about to put it on. Twodots (talk) 00:56, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Does s/he need to wear a mask in open spaces? Was there anybody near him/her, you know the 2 meter rule? Was there anybody inside the ambulance? Although considering the cramped space inside those things, it is a bit alarming s/he was not wearing a mask in the confined space. Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Kurzgesagt
So, they aren't conspiracy theorists or cranks, quite the opposite in fact. All around awesome. Basically, they might as well be the Gods of Rationalwiki, we even link to one or two of their videos. But are they missional in any way, for us to promote in some manner the way we promote Bertrand Russel? CoryUsar (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, as much as I like their stuff (it's awesome), I wouldn't say they're quite missional enough for an article- however, if someone went ahead and made one, I wouldn't complain. I'd say it's not missional enough for me to want to bother making an article on. Twodots (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * They get a lot of things wrong actually, specifically in regards to sociopolitical matters. Their science videos are top notch however. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  23:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "specifically in regards to sociopolitical matters"
 * Such as? CoryUsar (talk) 23:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Incoming Cory/Oxy shitfest. Grab yer popcorn, kiddies! Twodots (talk) 23:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Scoot over will ya I need to see this shit Evilatheistheathen (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Pass the bowl, will ya? Twodots (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's right here dawgEvilatheistheathen (talk) 23:09, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks to ya, my dude Twodots (talk) 23:42, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?! CoryUsar (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Tbh, not really. Y'all haven't even started yet. Twodots (talk) 23:42, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah. When one of them gets dragged over to the coop let me know.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 23:46, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sure. Twodots (talk) 23:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * To be honest, this prick https://thefatemperor.com/ is certainly on mission. His twitter feed is full of conspiracy headcases, including Jim Corr before he got banned Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And https://twitter.com/JimTimberthing is not backing up! 12:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh that is a wonderful twitter account. Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

So... I created the draft here. Why? Because I can. 12:53, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm doing a big photodump of my pics from the Trump "Wild Rally" and storming of the Capitol on Wikimedia Commons
Just in case anyone here wants to illustrate an RW article or other side projects, all mine are Creative Commons license:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TapTheForwardAssist

I prioritized getting the insurrection photos up first, but later today or so I'll add more photos from the Trump rally and speech on the National Mall too, so watch for those to go up. TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 15:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Holy shit, you should get a medal for this. You risked violence and contracting COVID-19 in order to give us freely licensed photos of the storming. Take a well-deserved rest, my hero. 38.121.70.224 (talk) 20:57, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I've just issued this person the Tireless Worker Award on their talkpage, for which they have bragging rights to copy-paste it into their userpage. -- Goatspeed. 01:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, man. You're a damn hero for making all this publicly available. 21:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You sir, have earned yourself a chocolate chip cookie. These will come in handy for the draft article on the riot.TheEndlessVoid (talk) 02:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Awww, thanks guys! "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" and all that. I'll have more photos up on Wikimedia Commons in the next few days, of the Trump speech that sent them marching, the Roger Stone presentation the day prior, armed Trumpers facing off with armed kids in black hoodies in Atlanta, etc. And I'm debating going to see what's up in DC on 19-20 Jan, which is either going to be a wet fart of a sad protest, or ridiculous insanity. No promises, but I'm pondering going. TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your public service, TapTheForwardAssist. Bellingcat is also collecting videos and stills from the coup attempt. Bongolian (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually know "Brown Moses" (Bellingcat founder) from my Something Awful days. Your reckon I could hit him up for some contract work in this slow Covid economy? TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 14:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know anyone at Bellingcat. I just read about them, so your guess is as good as mine. Bongolian (talk) 17:57, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, if you haven't already, you might want to point the FBI to the Wikicommons photos. Bongolian (talk) 18:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Post nice things that keep u going
For me it’s. 1) My cat, she is lovely but also very stinky but mostly lovely and she’s very cuddly. 2) Ocarina of Time is so good, I legit don’t like any non-zelda video games bc this game???? Is basically perfect. 3) I’m on medical weed so that’s nice I have a prescription to be high and can’t b arrested. And it also helps me actually sleep and hurt less. SO YEAH what’s some good shit in your lives right now? 01:00, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Memes. Twodots (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * show me the memes pls I left all social media a couple years ago and do not know what the funny memes are these days. Is uhhh John cena still funny that’s the last meme I remember 01:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest checking out r/dankmemes for the really fresh shit. Twodots (talk) 01:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (also as far as I’m concerned gucci gang is still the biggest hit in the world and nothing has happened since 2017) 01:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Got another 1-rep max last week for Bench. Just baaarely missed going up 10 pounds in 2 months, but, hey, 5 pounds is still good and I plan to get that 10th pound this week.  Actually 2 maxes, but haven't been going for Deadlift as hard as I have Bench, yeah I'm a top-heavy gym-rat.  Will actually try to see what my max Dead and Squat are later this week, but, regardless, it's nice to know that I'm not too far away from being competition-level if I wanted to. CoryUsar (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * My family has a chihuahua we adopted after she wandered into our garage one summer day, fearful and emaciated. I love putting a smile on her face and her greeting me after work. Every once in a while when walking down the hall you can catch her beaming from someone's lap or her blanket on the couch. Artificius (talk) 02:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Awwwww, that's sweet. Twodots (talk) 02:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * High saturation images of Xerxes from 300. UraniumSpoon (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Live stream videos of kittens for me24.240.45.217 (talk) 16:24, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Watching the SNL skits that are not depressingly accurate. And editing on here because I have no life. -- Goatspeed. 16:34, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ditto on both counts. Twodots (talk) 17:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Biden's Test
So... I'm wondering just how other countries are going to test the limits with Biden. So far, North Korea has vowed moar nukes, but China still has its eye on Taiwan and Iran is out for blood, new nuclear deal or not. Every President has a crisis that defines them, I don't expect any different with the President-Elect. How he reacts determines what moves others make in the future. Any guesses? CoryUsar (talk) 06:51, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Dunno why, but I have a feeling in my bones that something big's going to happen between Biden and North Korea in the next four years. Somebody's definitely going to make a move... Twodots (talk) 06:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If nothing else, you are starting to make yourself a nice little home here :P. Don't worry, our servers use lots of lead, we should be safe...CoryUsar (talk) 06:59, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I feel like I'm really starting to get with the flow of things. Twodots (talk) 07:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And New Mexico is in the middle of fucking nowhere; this site should be safe from the nuke they launch before Biden responds by pressing The Button and destroys NK almost completely, leaving South Korea to annex, unbrainwash, and deradiate the rest. But all those of us on the West coast not wearing 2 million sunblock are in danger hehe... -- Goatspeed. 07:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The NK/China border is currently closed due to the pandemic, which means no food or other imports. NK is currently facing what could become a famine, which would only be exacerbated by increased nuclear spending. NK also unusually admitted in their recent party congress that their last 4-year plan was a failure (but blamed extenuating circumstances). Bongolian (talk) 07:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Circular, if North Korea decides to nuke even under the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction, they won't just target the US. Tokyo, Seoul, every US-aligned neighbor would receive a red hot nuclear warhead. It would be a humanitarian disaster. And if you get Pyongyang, you won't get the many silos in the countryside ready to keep firing. Electros [ gold  swords  ] 13:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * what is it people think NK are going to do exactly and why? if anything with biden in the whitehouse tensions are more likely to ease. trump threatened nk with annihilation, its no wonder why nk might feel they need nukes (he threatened iran with annihilation too, and now they are probably looking to get a nuke as well). there was no chance of deal with trump in office. if they are facing famine, then they have something they want help with in return for halting their nuke program. kim talking up their nuclear capabilities and threatening to build more is just laying out his cards for potential talks with your new president. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Eh didn't Trump reach a deal with North Korea? He's a fascist don't get me wrong but let's give credit where credit's due.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 23:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

If by "deal", you mean "alternating between kissing Kimmy Baby's ass and nearly causing WW3", then yeah, sure, he made a deal. In terms of actually doing anything for the people under his tyrannical rule, he ain't done jack shit. Twodots (talk) 00:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Well, the only real goal of engagement is preventing war. Helping the North Korean people is, at best, a happy bonus.-Flandres (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, he still sucks at it- there have been way too many close calls for my liking.

Twodots (talk) 00:11, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There was one close call in 2017 and ever since US-North Korea relations haven't been too bad. Evilatheistheathen (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What AMG said. The reason smaller countries want nukes is to even the balance of power between themselves and larger countries, to have a chip they can use to avoid invasion or other attack. It's mostly posturing, basically. 16:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "Mutually Assured Destruction", the doctrine which arguably stopped The Soviets and the US blowing themselves (and the world) up, doesn't really apply between the US and North Korea. It would largely be be "Assured Destruction" on the North Korean side.  There is no chance they would be mad enough to go down that road. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:40, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * MAD also assumes only 2 players. When you have 3 or more, a sneak attack on a coastal city, e.g., some random junker freight ship under a literal false flag, can be used by country A to convince country B that they were attacked by C, and then in the ensuing chaos B and C will wipe each other out while A sits pretty and inherits the world.  In the ensuing chaos, B and C won't have nearly enough time to figure out that it was A behind everything.
 * Furthermore, this presupposes that all players involved actually want to continue existing, and that an apocalypse cult isn't also in control of their own stockpile. It's unlikely, sure, but not impossible, given that not only are there major religions that do believe it is their duty to bring about the End Days, but they already have enough political influence that they are indeed influencing world policy.
 * But most importantly, people make mistakes. The US has dropped a nuclear weapon on itself at least once (the core wasn't installed, but it still leveled a farmhouse), and it also accidentally bombed the Atlantic at least twice (again, unarmed, but still).  And that's what we know of, certainly Russia has some stories to tell over a bottle of Vodka.  Every single extra player is just one more moving part that can break, and nuclear weapons aren't tax forms; you can't afford the occasional screwup. CoryUsar (talk) 00:30, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You kind of haven't really reinforced your case, just sort of pointed out the problems with MAD which Bob pointed out doesn't apply anyway. Like, get your head out of la la land for a moment and actually think through why these countries might want nukes (Hint, it's leverage, it's always leverage and/or power). The answer is they want to force a larger nation to negotiate on their terms. Like, that's almost always the answer. It isn't to nuke "the great satan" it isn't to protect themselves. It's a fucking bludgeon in international negotiations. 00:45, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Uh, what's the case that you think I'm making? CoryUsar (talk) 00:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * im no sure it is all about leverage, i think there is a genuine fear for some countries of american aggression. iran only needs to look to its neighbour to see what can happen when you dont actually have WMDs. a nuke for iran wouldnt be mutually assured destruction, not with the us, but if it were to invade the last act of the regime before it crumbles would be make sure victory would be painful for the us or more likely an ally. i would hope collateral damage of a nuke leveling a friendly city like tel aviv say would give the us pause. it also makes the regime far harder, or problematic at least, to undermine or destablise in order to promote regime change. you dont want risk a failed state with fuck knows who running around with unsecured nukes. the us would have shift its entire approach to iran.
 * it probably is about leverage for north korea, but from what i read they are genuinely fearful of a us attack, so maybe not all leverage. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's always "to prevent US aggression" and never "to prevent Soviet aggression", or simply because the country itself wants to bully and invade other minor countries with impunity. You don't hear about Taiwan or Vietnam trying to get nukes to deter China. CoryUsar (talk) 03:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It's very likely offensive and defensive leverage in both cases. Both want to avoid invasion by larger powers (I'm pretty sure NK is also paranoid of Russia and China as well as being paranoid about a US invasion.) and achieve long standing political goals in their respective regions. Both also want the US to fuck off and to take our sanctions with us. That being said, I suspect their next move after that would be to solidify their influence in their respective regions as much as they could, which likely include invading or otherwise acquiring control over neighboring countries. 03:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * About your last point I could definitely see a Chinese intervention in Afghanistan or Syria in the next few years. Hell already Chinese troops have done patrols within Afghanistan.Evilatheistheathen (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * nk is like a crazy ex threatening to kill themselves if you leave them. they need something to china think NKs complete collapse would be riskier and costly than to continue keeping them afloat. i think they are a less scary prospect than iran having nukes. no better time to renegotiate a nuclear deal when you can lay all blame for recent hostility at trumps door. i read that if israel and saudi arabia insist on a seat at any talks, there is potential for easing tensions all round. no idea on how likely that is
 * the us has the largest and most powerful military in the world. it could devastate most countries secure in knowledge its mainland is out of reach of any reprisals. it has a military presence in dozens of countries on every continent drone strikes could cripple a country without a single us troop on its soil. without going into the rights and wrong of it, the us uses its military - from airstrikes and more recently drone strikes, to covert actions with special forces through to fully fledged invasions, if the us talks about regime change, it should make any country incurring its ire nervous. china is not threatening any country's very existence, with any potential conflicts likely very localised affairs, the exception being taiwan of course, but chinese sabre rattling is just bluster when their strategy of economic integration is being played out. and russian aggression these days is localised to its borders and propping up its allies elsewhere. a nuclear deterent wouldnt really be a practical objective and risks sanctions while the global nature of economics and politics these day makes overt aggression have repercussions that the us would not face. china and russia both have sanctions applied to them for various reasons, where as what sanctions has the us ever faced? some stern tutting at most.
 * and thats without looking at why iran has every right to be distrustful of the us and fearful. the us toppled its democratic government, propped up a hugely unpopular dictator, slapped them with sanctions, supported iraq in the war that iraq had started, sold iraq chemical weapons which were then use on iran, shot down one of its airliners, and provides military support to both its big regional rivals. the us then invaded two of its neighbours -afghanistan and iraq showing it can will invade its sworn enemy which bush had made clear iran was, with his axis of evil speech, cooperation in afghanistan and in iraq against the taliban and isis respectively saw some thawing in relations, till trump arrived and tore up it treaties and sent in the drones showing iran the us cannot be trusted, all capped off by trump promising the complete destruction of iran, while seeming to be really want war. there are us troops literally on the border, and a drone strike could wipe out their leadership in an instant with impunity. why wouldnt they be fearful? AMassiveGay (talk) 15:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * "china and russia both have sanctions applied to them for various reasons, where as what sanctions has the us ever faced?"
 * The 1973 OPEC embargo, for starters. And you are ignoring some basics such as the current Iranian government having been basically installed by Carter, who was under the assumption that the Ayatollah was going to be this super-nice Gandhi type. Nope!  Incidentally, the hostage crisis was NOT of the Ayatollah's making, but once it happened, the Ayatollah kind of just went with it in part to try and keep his fledgeling support unified.  Kind of like if the Capitol Riot had been more successful, Trump would've just rolled with it as El-Presidente.  As for the Iran-Iraq war, that ignores that the war was caused by Iran demanding the Shia in Iraq overthrow their secular Sunni overlords.  Until that stupid demand, the Persians/Shia were brother-Arabs, as the first major Islamic power to overthrow the European oppressors, but no, Iran had to stir Shi'ite up.  And then the grand mosque takeover happened at this time, and Iran was the obvious cause (turns out, nope, just Sunnis that thought the Saudis were too liberal), and, well, Al Qaeda's leadership was growing up during this time, where KSA was teaching about the Shia menace and whatnot.  As for Afghanistan, there's evidence that Iran knew in advance and let it happen, so any Iranian complaints about the US in Afghanistan are going to fall on deaf ears. CoryUsar (talk) 16:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * so where amongst those half truths and over stating of things makes the us not appear as an existential threat to iran? the smoldering remains of iraq (who similarly had a lack of WMDs at the time of their invasion) with a bellicose us literally on their door step threatening annihilation should be ample reason to seek some kind of deterrent.


 * it is the US and only the US with the capability to devastate iran in short order. not the saudis, not the israelis, certainly not the iraqis any more. and again, i cant stress this enough, the fate of iraq shows the us can be both willing and capable to really ruin your day with the most spurious of reasoning AMassiveGay (talk) 19:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Cory has proven himself over and over not worth taking seriously on serious topics. Just FYI. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There are two threats, that must be addressed in the first two years that will define the Biden presidency, both are domestic (Covid vaccinations, and right-wing violence). Iran is pushing buttons, but remains interested in a resolution, DPRK is just shit talking, and would get smacked down by the Chinese as an embarrassment if they go beyond that. The US needs a hard foreign policy reset, that likely includes a temporary retreat. And I think it is necessary.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * @AMG Well, Russia could as well; Iran and Russia are not buddy-buddy, even if they occasionally cooperate.  Israel may be able to as well, if it came to a nuclear apocalypse scenario.  If the Iranians are going by Realpolitik instead of ideology, it doesn't really make sense for Iran to keep harassing KSA or Israel beyond either trying to gain legitimacy among the Arab populace, which could further the wedge between Iran and the neighboring Arab states rather than strengthen ties, or to keep a massive bogeyman for the locals.  Actually acquiring nukes would cause KSA to immediately demand nuke protection as well, and depending on the actions of the US, KSA may not trust in the protection of the US's arsenal alone.  Same with the UAE.  Nukes don't really make Iran safer if KSA, Qatar, UAE, Turkmenistan, etc, are also nuclear powers.  Any deterrent advantage that nukes provide becomes less valuable the more complicated things become, and as mentioned earlier, MAD breaks down quickly when there's numerous players and the risk of accidents.  From a Realpolitik perspective, Iran really should be looking to avoid hostilities with KSA and the other monarchies, and stop acting like a threat to them.CoryUsar (talk) 20:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 'could' is not the same as will, or even likely. more likely russia will continue playing nice with an important trading partner, potential member of EEU, and continue cooperating militarily in syria. sounds like a better bet to me. still the us camping on the corpse of iraq the only real existential threat to iran. israel is not that - even if your money is on israel as the victor in an imagined fight, it would not be easy fight it would not be a one sided affair - that is the point. the saudis are not an existential threat. only the us is. its more than capable and what is important here shows an inclination to fight a war that will leave iran a burning wreck. granted it would likely be a quagmire like afghanistan, but complete destruction none the less. us casualties will be from IEDs and suicide bombings. but few from a stand up fight.


 * and its not like there isnt serious talk of impending war right now. news headlines from just today report on possible war, trumps presidency was one long escalation and provocation - the history of iran-us relations has been mostly escalation and provocation. politicians do like to talk tough, parts of the voting us public do like a tough talking politician, and when neither will even be inconvenienced by war, they can really get there fill of tough talk. that is why the US is such a terrifying prospect for a country such as iran. few americans will ever experience the horrors of the wars that many of them may have clamoured for. in the name of god, country or just a whim, staying the course means slapping on a support the troops bumper sticker. its military power and the readiness to wield that power by people far removed from the consequences that make the us such a threat. iran has nothing that could bring home to the american public the human cost of their actions, troops in body bags or terrorist atrocities would come to late, iran would still be ruined. it has no leverage. it has no nuke. you dont even have to use it. but it gets everyones attention.


 * i could not say the what the real effect of a iranian bomb. its dependent on so many things, its anyones guess. this is only my own assessment of why iran wants a nuke based on reading the paper once in awhile. i dont think its an unreasonable desire of irans to gain a deterent. as i keep saying, iraq makes it an necessity, the holy grail of diplomacy. it would certainly see everyone re-evaluating their respective positions.
 * what i am not saying is that it is desirable for a nuclear iran, nor i am saying they should. and despite the ever present threat, war is far from inevitable. having just ousted trump might be just enough to be able start up a dialogue and dial things down a little. anyones guess how that will pan out at present. iran isnt a blameless innocent in all of this, but neither is saudi, neither are the israeli, and certainly not the US. there is a lot that iran should do, that can equally apply to other players. it could stand to be less antagonistic but so could all...you get the picture. or better yet, why cant we all just get along? - i say that fully intending it to be dripping with sarcasm, but the coming weeks and months will depend on negotiating a new treaty with compromises needing to be made. a lot will essentially be riding on everyone 'just talking it out' which is a similarly ridiculously naive statement but probably also true. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Got some questions for the makers of the Doom games
How is it that in Doom Eternal the Doom Slayer can get delivery pizza and monthly magazines on board a floating space fortress? Also how does the Doom Slayer get a computer out of the late 1990's in the year 2165?

I know that I am questioning video game logic.

Fun fact: the Doom Slayer fortress has a copy of the parody version of George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm along with other books that parody classic books. --Zombie Broadcasting Dude (talk) 23:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What sort of uncivilized backwater decrepit space fortress would it have to be to NOT have pizza delivery, subscription access, and a few antiques ffs?? Come on dude - get real(TM) Aloysius the Gaul 02:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably from the same place he got his copy of Animal Crossing. And don't try to tell me he doesn't have a copy of AC. Kencolt (talk) 02:34, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Someone should change the nuclear launch codes, Trump cannot be trusted
I know that Trump is out of office in a week but in that time he could cause catastrophic damage with those nukes. Call me paranoid but with the Capitol Hill Terrorist Event (I am calling it like it is) basically caused by Trump, I would not be shocked if he tried something with nukes. Trump is more unhinged than ever before. --New Year Zombie (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I... would disagree, but Trump really has gone beyond what everyone thought he was incapable of. I do not  want to be proven wrong about the nukes, so maaaaybe we should have an extra layer or two of safeguard.  IIRC, the President can order a nuke strike, but the order goes to a group of generals, who then all have to agree that the order is Lawful and all.  So the real question is, would those generals agree to launch a nuke on behalf of a man who is known to throw underlings under the bus and most definitely won't be their boss in 3 days anyway?  I don't think they would, but again, I don't want to test that theory... CoryUsar (talk) 01:30, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * When I was in there was always a little background discussion of what constituted a lawful order and what didn't. It ultimately comes down to "in carrying it out, would you be committing a crime?" Career officers are very likely to view any use of America's nuclear arsenal to satisfy the nihilistic urges of an outgoing president as fundamentally unlawful. Artificius (talk) 01:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (ec)Well, he probably isn't going to kill us all before Biden's inauguration, and anything that could make it more difficult for him would probably be shot down anyway, so I daresay it's not worth the effort. Twodots (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Never mind the nuclear shit, tRump has already been killing us since he set off a ticking time bomb in early 2020 by bungling the COVID response. One of the better estimates is between 130,000 and 210,000 excess deaths from tRump as of around October 2020 (based on a total of 217,000 deaths which we have far surpassed at this point) (COVID-19 pandemic). Much of deaths going forward would also be attributable to tRump's bunglefication because early lockdown/masking would have greatly reduced current deaths. Bongolian (talk) 05:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Imagine that the US is a soccer team. Covid is the enemy team. The whole team, with some bickering, is trying to beat the other team. Trump is the goalie. For some insane reason, the goalie has a sledgehammer, and is shattering his teammates kneecaps. Additionally, he's informing those he doesn't cripple that they should be kicking into their own goal and that the other team, in fact, doesn't even fucking exist. Twodots (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC) That's both an under and over-estimate simultaneously. "Over", because many of those people were already higher risk or at death's door, so "1 COVID death" is not the same as "1 random person dying".  "Under", because diseases are kind of like baseball bats, in that if you hit everyone with a baseball bat until "only" 5 in 1000 die, you are still leaving many others with permanent injuries.  Really, all he had to do was tell his rabid followers to wear masks, but nooo.  That to me was something that I found unforgivable even before the attempted coup a few days ago, and was hardly the first thing.  Off the top of my head, it's those two, and abandoning the Kurds that I find to each be reasons to never vote for the guy even if he somehow found the cure for Cancer and fixed the deficit. CoryUsar (talk) 05:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In epidemiology, they often use estimated years of life lost rather than estimated deaths to account for younger people dying being worse than older people dying. Bongolian (talk) 05:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the launch controls need to have two keys inserted into it and turned- one of which is given to the president, the other to the defense secretary or something. -- Goatspeed. 16:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Just the idea of Trump having a nuclear launch key is disturbing enough. --New Year Zombie (talk) 21:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't trust the guy to take care of a fucking goldfish, let alone enough nukes to kill everyone on the planet several times over. Twodots   Annoy me   Look, ma!  21:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Trump has shown complete disregard for national security. He should not be anywhere near anything resembling military. --Zombie Broadcasting Dude (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Cheers to that, RZ. Cheers. To. That. Twodots   Annoy me   Look, ma!  23:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * My future kids will learn about him in history class as a wannabe dictator, who did COVID (already more lives than the Civil War could claim), tried to undermine our democracy and got impeached not once, but twice. -- Goatspeed. 04:03, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Umm... the Civil War was 700,000-1,000,000 soldiers, and a hundred thousand or so civilians (including slaves). COVID has killed around 375,000 Americans, more importantly, the Civil War mostly killed people in their teens and 20's whereas COVID is typically killing them in their 70's and 80's.  It's not over yet, but once the vaccine sees more use the numbers will level off fast, and we are looking at a total of around 500,000.  Which is still a disturbingly large number, but no need for hyperbole. CoryUsar (talk) 06:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, here we go, COVID took out around 1.2m life-years, back when it was around 130k deaths. Roughly speaking, COVID deaths are on average a loss of 10 years of life, and even then I think their estimates are overstated for many reasons, but I'll go with them for now.  The average curtate life expectancy of Americans at around 42 (yep), if you want to compare.  Even being generous, COVID is like 40 9/11s... CoryUsar (talk) 06:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A better comparison might be the Vietnam War, with an estimated ~60K deaths. Adjusted for life-years I imagine this is possibly worse than COVID-19 still, but this comparison would also allow one to compare the disgraced presidency of Donald Trump with the disgraced, but not quite as horrible, presidency of Richard Nixon. (Trump's probably going to be ranked at or near the bottom of most president lists, in the same bucket as Warring Harding and James Buchanan.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * So I'm going to do some stupid math here I know, but bear with me. I predict looking at current numbers as well as daily new deaths that by the time Biden is sworn in, US death toll has easily surpassed 400,000. However, even I'd admit it'd be unfair to blame Trump for all of those deaths. I think the fairest thing would be to compare to European average (since Europe is probably the closest approximate to US in relevant things). Currently, US has (as per Worldometers) 1,174 deaths/1000,000 people. Europe (all of Europe with its population of 741.1 million, not just EU) has about 813. If we blame all of the difference on Trump (which would also be unfair as there are other factors like lack of universal healthcare, but let's anyway...Europe's been a bit of a shit show too after all) of the approximately 400,000 deaths by the time Trump leaves office 123,000 would be on him. 13:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

This might be a logical thing to do as the man is evidently unstable and untrustworthy. But I doubt it would be a legal thing to do. Who is this "someone" who could explicitly take this power from the US president? (Obviously impeachment or the 25th amendment would have this effect, but my impression is that the call is for "someone" to do it now).Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC) 'A long while back' I read in a New Zealand publication I came across - the undertakers there found that there was 'an inexplicable decline in deaths': after some research (by statisticians and actuaries etc) it was worked out that this was the last impact of WWI - the deaths in question had already taken place: the equivalent 'shadow of WWII' has probably reached its tail end, and the Vietnam deaths will have to start being factored in (as people of that generation start reaching their normal lifespan/the maximum of the Bell Curve). What proportion of the COVID-19 deaths which did occur would have occurred anyway in the period 2020-2025 from other causes (and so there will be an apparent decline in deaths from what would be expected)? (I do know I am simplifying the calculation.)

It is not the person who is evidently erratic/problematic/has issues who is the problem - as they can be allowed for (duties reassigned 'for the present' etc), but the 'slow transition' (is there a better phrase than 'boiling the frog'?), 'the ditherer' who is not capable of finding and working with 'a doer' in tandem, or someone who is capable of gaslighting/manipulation. Anna Livia (talk) 20:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Much of Western Europe is super densely populated and all urban areas are extremely concentrated, in many countries there is close contact, a culture of meeting one another frequently, little personal space, congested public transpiration all recipes for helping the virus explode in the beginning. Europe is not comparable with the sedate lifestyle of America and its far less concentrated and congested living spaces. In any case you would be far better to simply compare the US with Canada which has a relatively similar culture (though less wacky in the whole COVID denial and better with the masks) and population centre concentration as the US. America is in absolute fucking shambles compared with Canada so yeah, leadership obviously seriously matters. If any European country had a leader like Trump who denied the seriousness of the virus and gave out deadly advice all to further their political career...then Europe would be in a truly terrible state. Shabi  DOO  14:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I've tried to look at US mostly on state by state level, since most US states are populous enough that they' could be considered countries of their own in Europe. That said, the worst hit parts of US are also pretty densely populated states like New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts (all of which have more deaths/capita than any country in the world). 14:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It is extremely difficult to compare Europe with the US. Europe is far more concentrated over all than the US (true you have a few super concentrated downtowns in a couple cities but apart from that you simply cannot compare the kind of density) and their cities are overall far more densely populated, with super used and congested public transportation and in many countries a culture of minimal personal space, frequent contact, the overwhelming majority of people living in small apartments packed together, narrow streets with small sidewalks, a much larger amount of time spent in the streets, far less detached large homes with open gardens/yards and before it was known how contagious it was, a culture of kissing hello and goodbye, far more physical touching between one another, lots of visiting in cafés/pubs, visiting one another at home (likely helped spread things faster in the beginning) and I could go on. Many European countries had super harsh lock downs (literally no going outside except for groceries and mandatory masks outside) and a few have reinstated those (it's hard to imagine this ever happening except in the rarest of places in the US). The US and Europe might as well be different planets in many ways. As I said...compare with Canada. Why aren't you just comparing with Canada which is contrasting apples with apples? Shabi  DOO  15:34, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * @Shabi NYC has a population density of 27000 per square mile. Paris is 20000, London is 15000, and Berlin only 10400.  Sure, Europe is slightly more urbanized than the US, but not as much as you seem to imply.  Europe also has plenty of inbred backwoods hillbillies types living in West Bumfuck as well. CoryUsar (talk) 15:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Uhh...NYC, Paris and London metropolitan area density (not just the very centre of the city "city proper") have similar densities and NYC is the only US city to have a density close to that high. Even dozens of small European cities are more dense than Chicago or Boston. Take a look at this map


 * Note the enormous red cluster in Western Europe. Europe is twice as densely populated than the US over all and the EU is three times as dense as the USA and has mega dense enormous urbanisations all over Western Europe. A region of Germany has 15 cities that are so tightly packed they are merging into one giant mega-urbanisation. Same with a region of the Netherlands, Flanders, Poland and three regions in the UK. 80% of people in Spain live in small clustered apartments. And besides density, as I said: Streets are demonstrably narrower. Public transportation is used FAR more and is FAR more congested. It is ridiculous to compare the US with Europe. Again...compare it with Canada. Why aren't you comparing the US with Canada? Shabi  DOO  16:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Canada has huge provinces and I haven't seen data reported with greater granularity.
 * Nonetheless my "rough hypothesis" would be that Trump's legacy would be COVID's spread in rural American areas, which otherwise would be much less prone to the virus. The COVID infection rate per capita for France, for instance, is decently granular (reported per region), and it seems "very roughly" that it corresponds to France's population density map, in that less dense regions have less COVID-19 per capita infection rates. Even with Canada you can extrapolate that many provinces with no major cities (Nova Scotia, PEI, Newfoundland) have done quite a bit better than territories with major cities (Quebec, Alberta). (Though of course there are outliers.)
 * COVID-19 would be an issue in urban America anyways, but it's also a major issue of rural America as well. The per capita infection rate of very rural states like Wyoming and North Dakota is pretty terrible looking. These states are extremely rural, way more rural than Nova Scotia. Trump's base is rural. His behavior may have therefore been an influence on the high rural infection rates in America in particular. Such may fall apart under detailed analysis, of course... but the hypothesis seems to match some observations at least. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm... here's an interesting mathematical question that's an aside. What's the average population density for each person?  That is, you have 1 person by themselves in a square mile, and 999 people in another square mile, the population density is 500 per square mile but on average per person it's about 998.
 * Also for your purposes, an even stronger issue is that the average American is younger than the average European, like 38 for the US and 43 for Europe. Canada is 40, so, yes, probably a better comparison than the EU...
 * EDIT: How did this get left unsigned? CoryUsar (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Tulsi Gabbard as GOP candidate?
Maybe this question is already asked before but what are the chances of Tulsi Gabbard running as a GOP candidate in the future, given how the GOP voter base is disillusioned with the current establishment like Mitch and they look for some fresh faces. At a glance, a lot of young conservatives seem okay with Tulsi's policies and principles which include the recent bill on trans athletes or positions on foreign policy. Do you think she would be a real contender against AOC or some other likely progressive candidates? Dogeatsdog (talk) 06:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * About the same as Biden primarying Trump as a Republican in 2016. Hawaii is a small state.  Hawaii is an NCAA recruitment hub, and a large portion of its young population enlist in the military, compared to other states, in my opinion because, what are they gonna do, go out of state for college?  I'm not big into "vote blue no matter who" but Gabbard does a pretty good job of representing her state as a Democrat, and I think we should at least know who she's representing before we think she's so out of line.  My state's got a senator who I didn't vote for suddenly being harassed because, he, as a Republican, said the election was legitimate.  Like, don't get ahead of yourself, the GOP constituency doesn't want a Gabbard.  They respect her, and I think that's important, again, she does a really good job of representing Hawaii.  Keep in mind, it is a requirement of the job anymore to perform theater.  The progressive left doesn't want her either, but like, she's not the worst we've seen, I would just as soon expect Republicans to vote Biden as Gabbard.    Gol Sarnitt (talk) 08:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Highly unlikely. Given that she's on the record supporting UBI, universal healthcare, and a Green New Deal, she'd be tarred and feathered in a Republican primary (I could see lots of attack ads saying things like "if she votes like a socialist Democrat, why isn't she running as a socialist Democrat?"). Besides, I just don't think the activist conservative base would want someone like her.
 * Conservatives' stance on her is basically "she's one of the good ones". I don't think they'd support her over a taco with an R on it. Additionally, like Gol said, she's a lot more progressive than some Onanist libs give her credit for. Not letting trans athletes competing with women may be an unpopular opinion in progressive circles, but it's more reflective of what the general populace believes, discounting ideology. The mob tends to get caught up and latch onto one stickling position as evidence of not belonging with progressives, despite a wealth of evidence otherwise. Just like how progressives actually thought Kamala was to the right of Bush because "zomg cop bad!" despite her voting record being similar to Bernie Sanders of all people lol. 69.60.33.176 (talk) 22:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Impeachment Hearings: The GOP is so damn cringeworthy
Watching the hearing and the GOP has some very terrible Pro-Trump speeches. Ugh. --Zombie Broadcasting Dude (talk) 20:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Would you rather they had a charismatic speech that convinced the public not to support impeaching the bastard? CoryUsar (talk) 20:36, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * True, I give you that. --Zombie Broadcasting Dude (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Conservatives in general are very cringey. Twodots   Annoy me   Look, ma!  21:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Something I've wondered ab out all these people saying "Oh but 50-60-70 million Americans are unsure about the validity of the election" is why the "other side" doesn't just come out and say "Well stop telling them fucking lies then - you're the ones making them unsure because you have told them BS!" as a direct answer to such claims rather than just generalized comments. Hit them with it there and then! Aloysius the Gaul 22:03, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the other side is sick and tired of arguing with their crazy uncles at Thanksgiving, and has just given up. "Oh, Obama is building a bunch of FEMA death camps?  That's nice, mmhmm, pass the stuffing."
 * I blame the existence of social media. No, not for promoting bullshit, but enabling even country-folk to meet with like-minded weirdos.  A century ago, your neighbor was your friend.  Your neighbor a little kooky?  Tough shit, it was that or no one, so you put up with them.  Your neighbor was a bit weird, but so were you, and you learned to tolerate each other.  It was a strange paradox; the rural areas were far more tolerant in their friendships but only allow people they'd be friends with in, whereas in the cities they might allow a wider variety of people in but they'd be friends with a far more narrow band.  Now, you don't have to be friends with your neighbor, you can join a TwitBook group dedicated to all your own weirdo ideas.  And then the echo chamber gets crazier and kookier... CoryUsar (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Saw a clip of a GOP member saying "the left incites violence too - and it's worse" - and how this showed the Dem's were hypocritical and selective. Apart from being whatabousim, it's fucking obvious that none of the stuff he was talking about was an attempt to overthrow the results of an election!!  What a duplicitous prick:( Aloysius the Gaul 00:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The only reason I would like the impeachment hearing to get Trump out of office anymore is so that Trump can't beg anyone who is deluded enough to follow him for campaign donations. Like, that's it, I'm not trying to be nasty or spiteful, I just don't want to see him grift people with the excuse of "I could still be president if you just gave me enough money" anymore.  No other arguments, I just don't want to see that and know it worked on somebody's social security check again.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Passing thought
COVID-19 is the butterfly effect made real.

Discuss. Anna Livia (talk) 00:05, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * No Aloysius the Gaul 00:44, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There are countless instances throughout history where minuscule events end up having monumental effects. I guess that illustrates the random/haphazard nature of human history. Technically, literally everything ultimately comes down to small things leading to bigger things. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 00:57, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There exists overwhelming evidence that COVID-19 caused the loss of the 2020 Donald Trump presidential campaign. COVID-19 spread due to random mutation(s) of a coronavirus. So yes, I believe that the random and almost-infinitesimal noise of the universe can cause unprecedented and major flux in the universe. 01:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is so much a "butterfly effect". A virus is directly related to a pandemic and a natural outcome of it so it isn't like a small trivial event unleashing some larger unexpected indirectly related event. It is more of a "black swan event". You can refer to Nicolas Taleb's work (of the same name) where he discusses how a small number of unpredictable events have an enormous impact and that we don't really take account of these despite how seriously they affect us (both positive and destructive). Problems with not taking it into account include people who take full credit for their successes when chance and unpredictable events can explain a significant portion of it and also us not taking sufficient precautions for serious unpredictable problems like natural disasters, economic crises or health emergencies. Shabi  DOO  03:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Mainspace
How do you get a draft into mainspace?Evilatheistheathen (talk) 18:31, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Under "More" on the top right, "Relocate". CoryUsar (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I did that but it still says it's a draft for some reason. Evilatheistheathen (talk) 19:22, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You apparently tried to move it to a redirect or something. Anyway, I deleted the redirect and moved the draft to its place. Should be fine now. 19:30, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. Thanks👍 Evilatheistheathen (talk) 19:35, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Change the namespace from "Draft" to "(main)". -- Goatspeed. 19:30, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the problem was that there was a redirect at "Danny Healy-Rae" to "Draft:Danny Healy-Rae" and Evilatheistheathen tried to move the draft over it without removing the redirect first. Anyway, I think I fixed it. 19:35, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

$3,000 a month to rent a toilet
These people really are just the fucking worst. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 22:58, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Just sad. --Zombie Broadcasting Dude (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sad! IveBeenFrank (talk) 23:43, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Really fucking hate that I held a proper job in 2020. Had to cough up thousands of dollars, to pay for this bullshit.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 03:02, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, that's the real estate acumen. The meta-game.  Secret Service detail costs money and is obligatory, it's guaranteed rent if you stay at your own property and don't have to pay for it yourself.  Keep in mind, Donald and Melania have lifelong Secret Service details, because that actually mattered for Barack and Michelle.  And yet I'm still worried that Trump is going to ask his followers to donate whatever they can to fight thieves and grifters.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Capitol Riots Race Issue
Maybe the riots would've gone differently had the rioters been predominantly Black instead of predominantly White. Most likely, actually. But the media is doubling down on the whole alleged racial disparity, and I can't seem to understand why. I don't think there are any Leftwingers or Centrists that aren't outraged over the riot. Even many hardcore Trumpers are peeling away from him over all of this, and he's bleeding corporate sponsors like a pro athlete that got caught dogfighting. So what's the benefit of reframing the riot in racial terms? It won't get more people upset at Trump, and it won't chip away at his base. It's either going to direct some of the outrage away from Trump onto some other issue, or it's going to create a lot of pushback. CoryUsar (talk) 19:18, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the difference in policing responses in advance of the coup and the BLM marches last year are being highlighted to show that racial bias in the USA hasn't gone away, and not letting the crap treatment of blacks by "the establishment" disappear into the background.Aloysius the Gaul 19:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The idea is to show the "moderates" that racism is still very real and institutions do protect white people. It isn't about getting people upset at Trump, but upset at how their "perfect" country actually works. 2804:431:C7F3:BE58:5ACD:5335:D626:256 (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And will it be seen that we are too harsh on BLM, or simply not harsh enough on White people? Because I saw the riot and my initial thought was "we needed more protection from these people, because look at how much damage they did, dear god, what if they had been more organized and managed to break into the actual chambers of congress and started lynching representatives?!  Oh my god, that guy got into Pelosi's office; I may dislike her but that's basically a burglary.", not "we should have less protection from unrelated groups." CoryUsar (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I get this sentiment. I definitely watched the insurrection and thought those officers would have been within their rights to have killed more than the woman they did. Watching that black officer leading them away from the Senate chambers, he should have killed a few. But the critical thing here, is that authority, especially law enforcement,  is more threatened by black people seeking justice, than white people seeking violence.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah. The Black people seeking justice are carrying signs saying ACAB or Abolish the Police, and the White people seeking violence are wearing Thin Blue Line shirts and making it very clear that the oversized guns on their backs are going to be pointed at not-the-police.  Heck, that 17 year old kid who killed two people during one protest had been giving the cops coffees earlier in the day.CoryUsar (talk) 14:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, signs are one things, actions are another. Earlier this year, there was an image of a NY police officer that got separated from his unit, and was in the middle of protestors. Five or six black men, circled him and kept him from being attacked by other protestors. Last week, several police officers were individually beaten, maced, some feared they were going to be shot by the insurrectionists. Almost every single time during the protest during the summer, large groups of people either retreated, or defend themselves from the batons and chemical agents from law enforcement. These fucking people attacked them. Though they talk about supporting law enforcement, what White Supremacists actually support is authority repressing black and brown people, maintaining white control. Several accounts I read indicated that the insurrectionists viewed DC and Capitol police as different, both because they looked different (more black and brown officers) but also weren't like their good old police back home that would be joining them instead. These terrorists, which is by definition what they are, won't be held to account until it's made clear that white people aren't better than everyone else.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 20:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't forget, one of them was actually beaten to death by the terrorists at the Capitol. Given enough time, with the police being attacked and injured by the White supremacists and protected by Black people and you'll see the handling of each group change.  Until then, well, this is what the police see CoryUsar (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Seems like the "Boogaloo Bois", who are just anti-authority, including law enforcement, are gaining influence over groups that feign support for law enforcement. It would be legit terrifying for law enforcement to finally realize white supremacists are not their allies after they are explicitly targeted.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 22:15, 15 January 2021 (UTC)