Talk:BreadTube/Archive1

Necessary
Is this page really necessary? ATM it doesn't add anything useful or debunk anything dumb. SocialismDoneLeft (talk) 21:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

"Other channels and podcasts"
To the uninformed reader, this is a giant list of text with no context, no links and no context. For example, what the fuck is "Chapo Trap House" and why should I care? 99 out of 100 readers are probably not going to highlight the text and right click "search Google for..." I appreciate the input from various contributors, but this list is pretty useless in its current state. I recommend trimming it to only curated links. Otherwise it will devolve into a giant mess like the various webshite link farms we have here that don't reflect good on us. Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:07, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it's always nice to try to give attention to smaller channels, but maybe we should offset this list into external links that hopefully have better lists. 07:59, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed there's scope creep here into encyclopedic list-making. I suggest that the links to the Breadtube site and subreddit are sufficient, with brief descriptions of a few of the most interesting channels if they fit the RW mandate. Otherwise this may end in YouTube Purge 2.0. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 17:36, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh god people are still adding to this list. 01:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Uncorrupted
I couldn't help but notice that Uncorrupted (formerly, The Uncorrupted Report) is missing from the list. He was the one who help me transition away from libertarianism and the far right with his debunking videos. What are the criteria for being on this list (if anything). Would it be wrong if I added his channel here? G Man (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * BreadTube by definition is loosely defined I think. So if you think it is, then it probably is. Since you watched those videos, I'll help to summarize style and subject matter. Anyhow, congrats on the transition, it's great you steered away from that ugly path. 18:29, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. There's more to the story, but I'll eventually add it to my biography, which is currently under construction.


 * I don't remember all of the notability guidelines of this wiki, but we may or may not be able to do an article on him (or, at least, add a section for him in this article).


 * I haven't been following him for a while, but I can tell you a few things about him. For starters, he's some dude from Michigan (Ypsilanti, I believe) named Marcus. He debunks a few PragerU videos, as well as some of the egregious talking points of pundits such as Candace Owens and Steven Crowder. Naturally, some of his videos (such as one that debunked Stefan Molyneux's racialist nonsense) have been flagged or censored, either because people who disagree with him made bogus reports about them (similar to potholer54), or because YouTube's algorithms mistook his debunking videos for extremist content (based on their titles, I guess).


 * I do disagree with him on something's, however. For instance, I think he is a borderline tankie, as evidenced in a video he made about his visit to a Soviet war memorial in Berlin in which he claimed the Soviets deserve the credit for helping the allies win the Second World War. (Although, to his credit, he did admit that he resented their treatment of the Polish in occupied territories, as he is of Polish descent. He also criticized their authoritarianism in a different video. Admittedly, I'm left of center, and occasionally I go full-blown centrist by committing the balance fallacy.) Otherwise, he's mostly a social democrat, and I agree with most of his views.


 * Anyway, I just thought he deserved an honorable mention. I won't do anything more than add an external link to his channel. Perhaps someone may add a section -- or even draft an entire article on him -- if they so choose. G Man (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The minimum threshold for YouTubers is 1k subscribers, a pretty low bar, but fair. 22:20, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay. Thanks, ! He definitely meets that criterion. I may or may not create a article on him, then. I'm kinda lazy, lol. G Man (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

This page should be deleted
It's pointless, and it doesn't say anything. All it does is tell you that these people exist, and the whole bottom part is just a bulleted list with links. Is Rationalwiki advertising these people? There's nothing critical said about them, and none of their arguments are discussed. This page should be deleted. 07:24, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I've now created an AFD for this article. 16:18, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Now let's do something about that list
So we've decided to keep this page but many of us aren't happy about that huge list of eternal links under the heading "Other channels and podcasts". I certainly don't think that just giving the names of a load of YouTubers without giving any description of what they do or why we should care is a good idea. Some descriptions are needed and so probably is some pruning. Spud (talk) 06:23, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I still think we should have some form of list, even if to support the small channels in question. — Oxyaena Harass  09:10, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I take no issue with the list or its size, as long as it is curated. By that, I mean that a short description of the linked channel, what its viewpoints are, and why it warrants inclusion on the list, is very helpful to anyone who reads that page. A list of links with no descriptions is not helpful to anyone. Cosmikdebris (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * there is nothing wrong with an index of breadtube, and promoting these people if u call it that is missional. EK (talk) 12:12, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * They're on the same team as us, so to speak, ever since we took the side of the so-called "SJWs" during the Gamergate shitshow and such, I think it's missional, as a sort of recommendation, but maybe not in mainspace. — Oxyaena Harass  15:07, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Some additional thoughts
I've noticed that some have considered deleting this page or revising the "Other channels and podcasts" section. My suggestion: is it possible we can convert this into a special page, like what has been done with Webshites? This could be done by creating a separate page for the list, then adding a brief description of each channel. I feel like some of these YouTubers need a little more exposure, and that some of this site's newer readers could benefit from viewing their refutations.

Also, I would like to nominate Tim Horn to be added to this list. I'm honestly not a big fan of his, but he does provide good refutations to right-wing nonsense. The reason I haven't gone ahead and just added him is because he mostly makes gaming videos -- not to mention that this page needs to be redesigned. (If you're interested in viewing his content on politics, check out his "Debunking Stupid People" and "Liberal Asshole Show" playlists.)

Just my two cents... G Man (talk) 21:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks and kudos
Just wanted to say thanks for making my day to whoever described ThoughtSlime as a 'GarfieldEats aficionado'. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 2620:10D:C093:400:0:0:5:ED2F / talk 09:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Cleaning up that "Other channels and podcasts" list
It kinda needs to happen? It suffers from example bloat pretty badly that doesn't add a lot. The range of subjects covered by some of these people don't remotely overlap and unless "BreadTube" suddenly means "YouTuber who isn't a reactionary" (page suggests otherwise). I get the attitude of "supporting smaller creators", but really we need a base level of popularity for this. Our task is to document and explore cranks and authoritarianism, and right now this is a kinda boring list of people who debunk it (or in other cases just make fun of alties) and a few people who honestly mostly just complain about capitalism and who aren't all that missional otherwise (I'm sorry but as much as I get why people like Jim Sterling, he doesn't fit our mission, nor does he really fit BreadTube I'd say) with little reason to list them other than "trust us, these are people part of it". I propose scrapping/moving the entire list to the talkpage and adding a requirement that a reason must be supplied to mention them there (we can keep the ones with notes and turn those into fully fledged entries). I've listed an example below for what I'm thinking of what I want entries on this list to be, based on what we have listed (note; description copied from the existing note, I personally would rewrite this note, but this is just an example and I'd clean it up if this idea gains a bit of traction).

* Second Thought: A popular educational channel. He first came to prominence several years ago with his apolitical content and was closely associated with centrist idiots Wendover Productions and RealLifeLore. Thankfully, he has since distanced himself from those reactionary channels and produces brilliant videos attacking the evil, bigoted, racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, fatphobic ideology of capitalism and makes videos about how workers should rise up and reclaim their lives from antifeminist manchild assholes like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.

Also, no YouTubers with less than 10k subscribers seems like a good rule of thumb, we apply the same rule for nuking our stubs on crank YouTubers (seems like there's quite a few nobodies in the list). Open to further suggestions and discussion of course, I'm not doing anything to the list unless I can get some degree of consensus. 11:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Seconded, though that note reads like a Poe. 11:40, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Applying the 10k rule seems fair enough.-Flandres (talk) 16:50, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So, in absence of stated opposition to this proposal, should we implement it? This section is a recurrent problem like that other overly in-depth list was on the Anarchism page, so it would be nice to end it all here and now.-Flandres (talk)!
 * Yes. I'll go through the list now. 11:06, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I've made it a new section . 11:47, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Indefinite protection
Needed? Judge Dredd (talk) 10:10, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * No. I've reduced it to 3 days. 11:05, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Alrightly. Judge Dredd (talk) 11:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

"Other channels" list
As a part of reducing our overfilling of examples (as proposed in an earlier topic), I've pasted the smaller list here, to make it useful for anyone who wishes to reincorporate them in the main article.

For future reference, in order to add someone to the article, they must have a channel with at least 10k subscribers and there needs to be a short summary as to why they're included. This is the same guideline we apply on having articles on reactionary YouTubers, and we're applying it here as a notability guideline as well (I'll point out that the majority of YouTubers on the old list met the criteria). Some of these listed below may also have their own articles. When readding them, sinkholing those is very much recommended. I've removed all YouTubers not meeting this criteria from the list below. Anyone can edit this list below, and if you add someone back to the main article, please strike them (wrap it in ) from the list.

List taken as it was from this diff. 11:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The list of readditions
Provide a general overview of the channel before adding them back. It's also in a comment above the other channels section.


 * ActualJake
 * Ash Hardell
 * anactualjoke
 * anarchopac
 * Angie Speaks
 * BadEmpanada
 * BadMouseProductions
 * Beau of the Fifth Column
 * BlackGoat 666
 * Chapo Trap House
 * Claudia Brown
 * Comrade Cora
 * Creationist Cat
 * Cuck Philosophy
 * Cult of Dusty
 * Curio
 * David Pakman Show
 * DemocraticSocialist01
 * Destiny
 * donoteat01
 * The Double Take
 * Faraday Speaks
 * TheFinnishBolshevik - Defense of Comrade Stalin
 * Flea Market Socialist
 * Folding Ideas
 * Franchesca Ramsey
 * For Harriet
 * Hakim
 * Halim Alrah
 * Hasan Piker (HasanAbi)
 * Hannah and Jake
 * Jack Saint
 * Jim Sterling (The Jimquisition)
 * José
 * The Juice Media
 * The Kavernacle
 * Kevin Logan
 * korviday
 * KnowingBetter - In an inverse stopped clock moment, he made a video titled "In Defense of Columbus: An Exaggerated Evil", which is nothing but pseudohistorical Christopher Columbus apologia. Watch BadEmpanada's response video here.
 * Kristina Maione
 * KyleKallgrenBHH
 * let's talk about stuff. (Sarah Zedig)
 * Libertarian Socialist Rants
 * Atop the Forth Wall
 * Mad Blender
 * Maggie Mae Fish
 * MEANS TV
 * Mexie
 * Mia Mulder
 * Michael Saba
 * MrTARDISreviews
 * Patricia Taxxon
 * PoliDice
 * Pop Culture Detective
 * The Progressive Voice
 * Quinton Reviews
 * Radical Reviewer
 * Rebecca Watson
 * RE-EDUCATION
 * Renegade Cut
 * Riley J. Dennis
 * Sarah Z
 * Sceneable
 * The Serfs
 * Step Back History
 * Suris
 * T1J (the1janitor) - Watch their video called I'm Kinda Over This Whole 'LeftTube' Thing about the relationship between POC and BreadTube.
 * Timbah.On.Toast
 * Tovarishch Endymion
 * Xexizy
 * Zahinsky - Previously known as Dr. Layman.
 * Zero Books

Weird ones
These channels have something weird about them. They can generally safely be readded:


 * Hard Lens Media - Appears to be a business. No sub count listed.
 * The Majority Report - Sinkholed to it's host and from there referenced to a site rather than a channel. The channel from a quick Google search does meet the 10k rule however, so it can be freely readded.

Discuss

 * I mean, guess you might wannna discuss stuff. I've converted some of the more comprehensive notes into full blown entries. 11:47, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think HasanAbi and The Serfs deserve spots, given their popularity (both even appeared on AOC's Among Us stream). I'm not an avid watcher of either, but I can attempt a first cut if there aren't any bigger fans. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 20:19, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Methinks this article needs rewriting.
This article has a ton of editorializing, and many of the entries in its list read more like advertisements for those people's channels than descriptions of what they discuss. Our articles generally shouldn't be in the business of promoting YouTube channels, especially if the political views they promote on said channels is only partially missional; specifically, the only reason this topic even warrants an article here is because many of these people, while many of them despise liberals like us for some reason, do share our hatred of the far right. What are your thoughts? -- Goatspeed. 01:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The only really "interesting" thing to mention is that the concept of breadtube is basically the left wing version of the Intellectual Dark Web and that dear fucking god we get a lot of holier-than-thou edit warriors on the ones notable enough for their own page (Vaush for instance is subject to a very drawn out edit war that neither party seems interested in resolving on whether or not he counts as "left of reason" and whether or not he is transphobic). Maybe we should bring our article more in line with the IDW article: Reduce the amount of examples to the barest minimum (Vaush, ContraPoints, Coffin, Hbomberguy) and just a list of them and write a section on how their content can serve as a gateway to further radicalization. 16:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan. Get rid of the irrelevant ones (always happy to trim out YouTuber stuff), replace the whitewashing and pet-project with actual critical analysis. -- Goatspeed. 18:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Not all users here are liberals. I can count at least a dozen who are not liberals. — Oxyaena Harass  18:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's because you just use "liberal" as a catch-all sticker that you slap onto everything and everyone you don't like. -- Goatspeed. 18:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And also, we have some conservatives like Sievert and RWRW. Does this mean that we let them turn conservative youtuber-related articles into advertisements for their favorite conservative channels? No. -- Goatspeed. 18:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I've removed anyone below 100k subscribers. The next step would probably be to edit their descriptions, but since I haven't watched the content of any of these creators except for Vaush, and I don't particularly want to (which is sort of required to write proper sections on them) I'll leave it up to other editors. IveBeenFrank (talk) 19:07, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That explains a lot. — Oxyaena Harass  19:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I would support an effort to establish a standard for how many examples ought to be in any given list within and article or within the entire article. I'd say no more than 5 examples per list.  Everything else can go to a subpage if need-be.  If an article has multiple lists then perhaps we can limit it to 10 or 15 examples. -Hastur! (talk)  19:14, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean, we effectively write in this style for skeptics as well so it's not like there isn't precedent. That said I'm not opposed to switching to a more documentation style approach. 19:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Knowing Better
We should probably add Knowing Better to the "Other Channels" list (in the article, I know it's in the talk page) because most of his content is fairly progressive but we should also address his defense of Columbus. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 2603:7080:A33C:ECE3:B1DE:2EB0:97D9:3EE8 / talk 05:29, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

This article is a stub.
If it wasn't for the examples (I tried removing them from the wikitext editor since they are unwelcome), the article amounts to 2 paragraphs. MarioSuperstar77 (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Does anybody even know what BreadTube is?
serious question: does anybody - including people who consider themselves breadtube aficianados or creators - know what breadtube is? because it really seems like nobody knows what breadtube is, other than that breadtube is a label slapped on anyone who posted a video, once. the following are a series of true statements. Each of these statements easily describes a fistful of channels. No points awarded for guessing which channels are described by which statement.


 * 1) BreadTube is a community of content creators who specialize in theatrical lectures, mood lighting, and creative costumes to deliver long monologues on philosophical subjects.
 * 2) BreadTube is a community of pop-culture obsessives who produce long video rants praising or dissecting popular media. Sometimes these missives are mistaken for video essays, but function closer to sermons.
 * 3) BreadTube is a handful of debate bros creating response videos to right-wing dingdongs, often characterized by their bad facial grooming and occasional use of slurs for "comedic" or "persuasive" purposes.
 * 4) BreadTube is a community of academics who produce videos on leftist theory and practice and whose content often focuses on equipping viewers with tools to recognize and deradicalize right wingers.
 * 5) BreadTube is a small club of anti-liberals speaking past each other, who spend most of their time being mad at leftists online.

FiveHundredMiles (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * BreadTube is a fucking mess. The closest I can give you for a solid definition is that it's a left wing version of the IDW, given how it basically popped up as a concept as a counterjerk to the impressive gatewaying of people like Crowder. That being said, this page is having a lot of extra inclusions because we have a lot of left wing editors who like to use this page as a "hey check these channels out, we can endorse them" topic and because the term "BreadTube" gets basically applied to any content creator who isn't a rightwinger who has said something about politics once. I would recommend reading back to CRs discussion about the page, because it needs a ton of work.
 * Breadtube is a collective of leftist-leaning Youtubers (Socialists, Progressives, Anarchists, etc), that's it really. The name breadtube came from the conquest of bread which is a communist book that discusses many topics related to society and, well, Communism. I will answer your other statements,
 * Some of them do, but that is not a leftist speciality, in fact, I recall that Literature Devil does the exact same type of videos, but from an Anti-SJW/Gamergate viewpoint.
 * You're thinking of two people, Hbomberguy and Lily Orchard (The latter is really not a liked figure I should add), so that is not what breadtube is all about. You are more likely to find that type of video outside of breadtube.
 * You're thinking of Vaush and Destiny, much like above, it is a small minority, so it is not breadtube-centric.
 * That is the closest thing to what breatube is compared to your other statements, but it is up to debate. Granted, the biggest breadtube channels are academics who produce videos on leftist theory, but that is not required to be part of breadtube.
 * Okay, you are completely off the road here. That's what centrists generally think of breadtube.
 * Breadtube only requires two things to be accepted in: #1 Oppose Fascism and crony Capitalism (If not Capitalism in general) #2 Support social justice causes like Black Lives Matter, the LGBT, etc. I hope I could explain myself clearly and that you now understand what breadtube is all about. MarioSuperstar77 (talk) 22:52, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * To follow-up then; what makes Breadtube missional then. Right now it's a puff piece. 13:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * In the extent that it is a group that refutes authoritarian rhetoric, and that is handled through social media, therefore, that covers two criteria from the mission statement. MarioSuperstar77 (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Fair enough- but I still think we should trim out the "examples" who are not actually leftists, and also the praising of some of them for their odd obsession with considerably less-dangerous "enemies" like centrists and liberals can fuck right off. -- Goatspeed. 16:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

edits, week of 14 march 2021
Added three paragraphs to the introductory paragraphs because the article as written did not adequately describe the social structure, function, and offline spread of BreadTube. These paragraphs are a little wordy. Humor value is lacking. The three added paragraphs are a start, but need rewriting in order to be maximally effective.

FiveHundredMiles (talk) 16:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It's now looking a tad bit better and less editorialized than it was when I last cared to check a few weeks ago, but methinks there's still lots of whitewashing and more subtle editorializing that needs to go. (And how TF is Kulinski even an example?) -- Goatspeed.  01:18, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I feel we should have a discussion on which Youtubers should be here. Maybe we should just list ones with their own page (Shaun, Contrapoints, etc.) in their own section and just list information on ones that we don't have articles on. There should also be a consistent standard on who gets their own section, who gets added to the bottom list, and who gets left out entirely. Also, I just want to stay that trying to add a more negative tone to parts of the article isn't removing editorializing, it's just adding editorializing in a different direction. We should be careful to avoid the Balance fallacy. Plutocow (talk) 01:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)