RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive362

Goddamn Firefox
Keeps fucking with their interface. They removed the history drop down. AGAIN. A month or two ago I had to go into about:config to fix it and now they released another update and it's not back anymore. If they don't restore history dropdown to how it was I will move to chrome. At least Chrome has broader compatibility.- "Shut up, Brx." 02:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is why I kind of stopped keeping up with updates... That and an update a while back breaking a photo saving add-on I used, and the new version still not having a comparable replacement. I swear most updates are garbage and make the tech thing in question worse than the previous version. I have rarely seen an update where I've been 'Wow, I really like how this works and looks.'--NavigatorBR (Talk) -
 * Besides security and functionality I've never understood the rationale behind such changes- "Shut up, Brx." 04:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Lol using the dropdown. Be a real human and enable menu bar by right click on the top part of the window. My least favorite change was when they removed the menu bar and relegated it to a shitty little dropdown button on the top right part of the window so, great, an extra unnecessary click. 04:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I use MS Edge. I dont need Chrome. Edge fills my browser "niche".--Delibirda the Annoying Grammar Nazi (talk) 07:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I use Pale Moon, which is based off the older Firefox code and uses its more customizable interface. All my menu bars are words, no icons.  I do much prefer software that 'just works' without constantly phoning home for 'my' updates. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 10:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I use Google Chrome. It works for me best. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 13:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Spoiler: press alt. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 12:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually like using Firefox... 12:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

After a few days of tedium, I have nearly completed my upcoming YouTube video!
I took over an hour just to perfect one section. I don't care if I lose my mind I will make sure it is a good video. Hope you all like flood basalt volcanic eruptions. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 13:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Firebrand! I have no idea what that means, but create! Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:20, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the finished video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pFTlwbHXSM --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 12:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Name of fallacy?
I was wondering if there’s a name for the following form of fallacy: ‘If my mother had decided to have an abortion instead of having me I wouldn’t exist. By the same token, if anything had been ever so slightly different on the day of my conception—if my father had sneezed the morning of that day, or paused for one second differently—then a different sperm would have reached my mother’s egg. Therefore, my existence is incredibly improbable and lucky.’ Thanks—2607:FB90:1781:FCAC:6DE7:46D9:D6B3:FFF1 (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's the Beethoven fallacy. 16:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Surprisingly specific! I was actually looking for something more generic, describing the manner of the pretzel logic engaged in by the example used, rather than a fallacy specific to abortion and existence... and through the link you provided, I came across the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, which is very close to what I was looking for. Much appreciated!—2607:FB90:1781:FCAC:6DE7:46D9:D6B3:FFF1 (talk) 17:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. 17:26, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As presented, that’s not fallacious. Generally speaking, only a tiny subset of what is possible actually happens. Genetics is an obvious example, but chaos butterflies influence a lot of stuff. It’s obviously true that the person you are (or anyone is) right now would not exist if not for a particular arrangement of circumstances that could in principle have gone any number of different ways. Any possible fallacy here would involve a “therefore X” where X is something that doesn’t actually follow. You’re kind of brushing up against one with “therefore, my existence is incredibly improbable and lucky”. A particular specific outcome is incredibly improbable, and lucky if it’s a good one, but it’s not improbable that there is AN outcome involving someone to contemplate their origins. The anthropic principle means that people contemplating their origins will always find that the past is such that they happen to exist now. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 18:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * BoN is on a good track. Let's talk about why that's the fallacy.  The Texas Sharpshooter fallacy imagines that you fire off a full clip of the highly defensive weapon of gun, with not much of a target in mind.  Once you are finished, you pick which shot was the bullseye.  I don't think that's exactly it, but that's based on your question's parameters.  The Beethoven fallacy, at least as a tool for anti-abortion, is really well counteracted by Judith Jarvis Thommson.  So, if you're picking apart an argument, and you're faced with those to rationales, that, say "you might have been aborted" muahahaha, and "you might not have made it as a sperm" reverse card, I'd say it's better to say "But I wasn't, and I made it, and this is what I think."  BoN did a good job pointing out Anthropic Principle, which absolutely blows both questions out of the water, but I would assume you'd like to have this conversation in the water.  In that scenario, you being one of a million sperms who didn't get aborted makes you special enough to hold an opinion.  You don't need the gotcha every time, not all conversations boil down to agreed fallacy. Sometimes it sucks to not have one, though.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm reading the initial comment and I can't see where the fallacy is supposed to be. The first point can be rephrased as "If things had been different they would be different" - which is simply a tautology. The second part is that each of us had been produced after an extremely complex sequence of events which - with hindsight - seem improbable. But every single event in our lives can be looked at in this way. It's simply true. So I'm not seeing the fallacy. Unless there is an assumed erroneous "therefore" which is meant to follow.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:33, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Seattle Autonomous Zone
Protesters forced the cops out of Cap Hill and have set up shop there as a little anarchist communal micronation. Don't know how long this is going to last. HairlessCat (talk) 16:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's fucking awesome, but it'll probably end up like MOVE. — Oxyaena Harass  16:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They would have to do better than the brainless cops. Just set up a government and declare independence, you are good to go. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 18:52, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Can't wait to see something like this happen in eastern Kentucky. Since there is a large poor population there, there are a ton of Communists, Anarchists, BLM supporters, etc. Wokeness and hatred of the pigs are very strong among poor white Appalachians. I just hope the anarchists and the tankies can get along. Achenar (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Top twitter find on this is Anthony Ngo calling it a no-go zone, which is very similar to what he called muslim neighborhoods, so it may be being blown a step out of proportion. Being said, much power to a peaceful occupation, "local news crew was chased out" by gentle hand-waving.   I wish all involved safety.  I fear that one single act of violence will justify a crushing force from the police.  Anthony Ngo is like the opposite of Warren Ellis' Spider Jerusalem ideal of a gonzo journalist.  [[User:Gol Sarnitt|Gol Sarnitt] (talk) 00:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Someone owns that extremely expensive land, and unless the US federal government is willing to just quietly give up on capitalism, at some point either the autonomous zone goes away quietly or it goes away loudly. I know it feels like a victory for the anarchist left right now, but long term the best case is they end up martyrs. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 01:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The CHAZ reminds me of Act II of Les Misérables, and, I fear, will end similarly. 01:59, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll go with torn apart by doctrinaire disputes, followed by months of bitter relitigation on Twitter. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Slight problem with that take HBC, these aren't scary radicals. They're just citizens of Seattle that put their feet down, hard. 02:28, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Scary? Not with a policy wishlist powered by dorm room bong hits. If enough of them have sufficient sense, they'll stress the temporary protest hub angle, bank the massive FU to the Seattle PD, and accept any reasonable offer of representation on working groups / committees set up to deal with police reform, etc.


 * This would allow a reasonably graceful exit before fatigue and in-fighting set in, and also offer a vehicle for ongoing organising and campaigning to maintain pressure on the authorities, without the burden (and reputational risk) of trying to hold territory indefinitely. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 14:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Wait, you think these demands are radical? Some of this is the kind of shit MLK and BLM advocated for... What have you been smoking??? Like, Fucking Minneapolis offered to do some of this shit already. Maybe get out of your sheltered suburbs more? 18:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. "Some of". Try again? Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 19:32, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Obviously the CHAZ itself is not going to last for long, but it is very important in terms of precedents set. This will back at the back of peoples minds when the next crisis happens, which will probably be sooner rather than later.-Flandres (talk) 19:45, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm from Seattle and went by recently. It's mostly hippies doing drugs in public and wannabe revolutionaries in a tent city. Not condemning or condoning, but it's fairly inoffensive and banal. Not a hellish zone of lawlessness, nor a dynamic new stateless civilization. Neo Stalinist (talk) 00:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Created RMS Titanic page
I've created RMS Titanic page but it needs improvement, particularly on the bostwick gates myth and the women and children first policies. I've not found sources that are not from social darwinist scum.Tuxer (talk) 23:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a very good start. The reliance on History Channel as a source is unfortunate, and should be replace by something more reliable. Bongolian (talk) 06:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

How does Professor Stick stay sane at all?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsVsFW4rF04

He reviews mountains of stupidity yet seemingly stays sane. I think that I would have completely snapped long before now. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Found a Woo-Meister YouTube account.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJYkWgGn2hxj6XqnBx9zzg

This guy is sounding increasingly like a crazy cult leader, making a whole video likening himself to / saying he is Jesus, and all sorts of ridiculous amalgamations of Christianity and Buddhism. Talking about such things as the "death of the ego", banishing "the shadow of death", and abandoning "materialism". He used to be a fitness youtuber until he got involved in some crazy and illicit drugs, chief among them Ayahuasca. His comments section is very productive in terms of lunatics and hallucinogenic advocates who will happily peddle any number of different kinds of woo pending on whatever Connor talks about. It has a very heavy cult atmosphere.

Outstanding claims include;

Scientifically proving the validity of Jesus and Buddhism, and that Jesus was "an enlightened man who knew the great power that is God." That there are "too many egos" running amok nowadays and people need to find "guidance". (convenient, eh, that CONNOR isn't one of those "too many egos") And some spiritualistic mumbo-jumbo about enlightenment via drugs. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Opus2020 / talk / contribs
 * Goof troop, I see you. Shield is selling shoes now, ain't that a thing? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not surprising that some gym bro dudes, who are constantly fed with broscience on supplements on places like bodybuilding.com, try "recreational substances" and start also embracing the type of hallucinogen woo you find on bluelight.org. The good news for this guy appears to be is that his gymbro stuff is about 100 times more popular than his pseudo-spiritual babbling. The bad news, of course, is that there are some actual famous gym bros on Youtube who are actually getting notable for their hallucinogen woo as well (Joe Rogan and his DMT obsession is probably the top example here, actually it wouldn't surprise me if this guy is actually trying to copy some of his schtick.) Soundwave106 (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This guy seems like a fool with an "exemplary" ego instead of a dissolved one. Writing ignorance about tryptamines won't make you look good though.  It is impossible to have a breakthrough DMT experience and remain a materialist; it simply doesn't happen.  Prove me wrong. HairlessCat (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The band apparently tried DMT (well, at least Grace Slick did if the widely quoted quotes are right -- certainly she did LSD) back in the 1960s. If the Googles of the various residences of Grace Slick over the years and the estimated net worth is right, she certainly hasn't lived a shamanic life free of material possession since then. At any rate, I have tried a few tryptamines personally, and I think they honestly suck. Body chemistry varies, of course, and a lot of people love them. Your mileage may vary. The neuroscience aspect is fascinating, of course... it appears the neural target (5HT2A) has some role in social cognition and self-processing, which goes part of the way to explain the "ego death" phenomeon, and why people get so mystical about it once they try it. That's wonderful, but you can easily turn fascinating aspects of brain chemistry into dumb quasi-religious mishmash (that often falls apart on closer examination). Soundwave106 (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ontological materialism and societal materialism/commercialism aren't the same thing, so I wouldn't point out that Grace Slick isn't living as a celibate naked woman in the woods that subsists off mushrooms and malaria water. Dosages decide a lot, so that's a factor.  DMT isn't the most powerful compound either--because subject and object still exist in that state.  5-Meo-DMT is about ten times more powerful and completely wipes out the difference while pulling back reality completely.  I just want to point out that everything is second-hand information if it is not consciousness, and this includes all the physical world.  If I am dreaming, of course I can imagine an object that affects my awareness of the dream.  In a lucid dream, you can smoke dream weed and become stoned, even if there is no independent material weed.  This is also what happens with regular weed--or brains for that matter.  Of course, this sounds insane to those not knowing of the philosophical backing or experience. HairlessCat (talk) 18:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Every single video is uploaded on the same day. Anyway, I've done some psychedelic drugs, and at least for me, I learned it wasn't smart to just do them casually.  I've had some bad times, I had one time where I was convinced I was trapped in an ever spiraling hell, I had one time where I felt like I was trapped as a conduit for higher level beings to meet in a sexual way.  So, I said I want to face this and the last time I dropped acid, I dropped wayyyy too much.  But I intended to.  Before I took the hits, I cleaned my apartment top to bottom, set up a VR space, and got hammered.  Just before I passed out, I ate, just wayyyy too much LSD.  I woke up at some point, I dunno, and hid in my closet, feeling like a star had probably died, because light years don't tell you things right away. I got in my shower and laid in the bathtub, saw the handle as a key to time travel, sprayed myself with cold and hot water, just, as much as I thought was necessary at the time.  Then I spun some records and played fighting games, because in the past I was always really unstoppable in fighting games with a microdose, I think I did OK but I was listening to records and was playing the games along with the tunes.  I got clothed and got myself into my planned VR experience.  It was really cool, I played Obduction for the first time with the windows open and the wind blowing, and listened to Live From Here, which had just switched over maybe a few months earlier from Prairie Home Companion.  It was a private experience, and it was more or less planned.  I've chowed down mushrooms before and had to ask if there was a place I could sit alone for a while before, I don't have the extrovert confidence to just be like "my mind is going to open up at this party."  And I did, for a little bit, really have to falsify dimension hopping, because I came out of it a little different.  I don't think I'm going back in, I'm pretty comfortable with what I experienced, how I experienced it, and what I perceived on that last trip, just me, knowing I would be by myself the whole time.  It was a big trip and I planned it very carefully.  01:50, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What I'm trying to say is, a psychedelic works on your brain, it can be really fun and positive if you take the care to use it in a fun and positive way. The experiences, as Dave Chappelle put eloquently, "Dave, calm down.  You're on drugs.  This is what drugs do."  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:01, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnwFmaLiKl4 HairlessCat (talk) 13:38, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He's also got a whole bunch of social media because of course he does, and I think it could be very interesting to go on there and try to debunk some of his statements in PMs or in comments. I'm a bit of a gymbro myself, and I was horrified and disgusted to see Connor peddling these ideas. This is absolutely not the time for him to seem to be revving up to some kind of cult.

Machinas I think therefore I am being debunked claim
I started a new topic to get off this tedious solipsism brain-rot and focus on Machinas incredible claim that "I think therefore I Am" has been thoroughly debunked. In fact I think it's one of his few ideas from Descartes that still have any relevance today. So Machina could you provide some evidence of this thorough debunking? It remains a fairly uncontroversial in philosophy when divorced from Descartes proceeding theology. Shabi DOO  05:03, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "one of his few ideas from Descartes that still have any relevance today" The word "Cartesian" is used to describe things relating to Descartes and his works. It was coined because there are a lot of them. Cartesian coordinates, for one. He did a bunch of stuff in math. I would also be interested to hear about this "debunked" claim. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 07:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I would also be interested to read this.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was referring to his philosophical/theological works (specifically about agency and the soul). I'm unfamiliar with his mathematical work. I'd imagine it has nothing to do with the topic (cogito ero sum). Though it would be great if it did somehow. Does it? Shabi  DOO  08:34, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * While true, dualism fucking sucks. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 12:24, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What convinces you dualism is true? Minds and consciousness are weird phenomena, for sure, but there's scant evidence they're anything other than products of sufficiently complex brains. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 14:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think he was saying dualism is true. He was saying dualism is not true, although physicalism is not the only alternative. HairlessCat (talk) 15:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bold reading of "While true..." What you got for an encore? Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 16:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Let me clarify. "While [Descartes being really important is] true dualism sucks."   ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:59, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cheers, and agreed. Apologies to the bald feline for doubting their parsing. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 15:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Early in the conversation, I said self was an illusion but that consciousness was self-evident, the response being 'No, they are not.' So, I said the self wasn't an illusion, which was responded with the whole Buddhist non-watcher concept of understanding without understander or pure conscious substrate without ego. So, I don't know what I'm arguing against. HairlessCat (talk) 15:41, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


 * No it was an ambiguous statement. On first read it seems like "dualism is true and it sucks". But ikanreed may have meant it differently...perhaps? In any case, if Machina had said "dualism" has been thoroughly debunked...I'd be with him. But the most base reading of "cogito ergo sum" is virtually a tautology. The only criticism I've seen are of the more complex readings (re: the soul or agency). But I'd be delighted to read this debunkery if some links or sources were provided. Shabi  DOO  16:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I believed he was speaking as in "while it is true Descartes made advancements, dualism is not true." HairlessCat (talk) 17:09, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So, what I think Machina is getting at, and I would hope he corrects me, since I'm not sure, is the idea that "I think therefore I am" is dubious, not disproven. Machina is more informed by Buddhism, I don't know much about Buddhism or its sects, but the claim isn't mean, it's just not correct on a semantic basis.  I may have given him some fuel for that claim.  I also don't think ikanreed meant anything other than "dualism sucks," I think it would be a far stretch to apply value there, since he can choose to correct us at any time.  I think it was a really clever statement.
 * Being said, maybe instead of trying to rip Machina apart for coming from a different philosophical background, it would be worth speeding up our own takes on Buddhism, which is, from my understanding, most often a religion with no God but also influenced by Hinduism and the Karmic preface, which if you've never checked it out, instant karma is not a thing, karma is how you got born and how you'll die and discredits agency, and it has been used as a principle to keep people held tight in caste systems. You were probably a good rabbit, and that's why you're human now, but don't be a bad slave or you'll be a cockroach when you're reborn.  That kind of thing.  I really don't have a firm grasp on it, but it's a wildly different starting point from "I think therefore I am." Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah I would have been surprised if ikanreed was a dualist. Shabi  DOO  07:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Gol...Machina said it's been totally debunked. I'd like to hear it. I'm not alone in saying I'm tired of Machina making these claims, pissing at anyone who responds, then making incredible claims and ignoring those who challenge him. I don't see how you can argue with "if I can doubt my own existence then I must exist" even if you just exist as a disembodied soul via an evil demon through a brain in a vat all in a cosmic simulation on a meta-being's laptop. Shabi  DOO  07:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are not alone in being interested in a response from Machina backing up his claim.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

How Descartes's claim may be taken as true
The following might be a good topic for a short philosophy paper. I liked thinking about it, and I offer it to the rest of you to think about or use. In the 17th century, almost two thousand years after Euclid's Elements appeared, it was still unknown whether the famous parallel postulate was necessary to make the geometry of Euclid consistent with the commonly held intuitive understanding of the structure it was supposed to deductively describe. Then Descartes invented analytic geometry. This innovation included an algebraic description of straight lines in the form of linear equations. It became trivial to show that the parallel postulate must be true in the analytical geometry of Descartes. It was later demonstrated that, without the parallel postulate, Euclid's system describes several distinct and inconsistent geometries. The following is only an outline of an argument that Descartes' claim is sound.

"I think" is not a primitive idea and neither is the affirmation of existence, which is the subject of the statement "I am." One can not explain the statement "I think" without a theory of mind or a sound definition of what it means for something to exist. The common understanding of existence for physical objects has to do with things apprehended by human senses. With this understanding, a claim such as "physical objects don't really exist," is incoherent, because we have defined objects to be real, or existent, due to our mutual ability to apprehend them. If we assume David Humes's theory of ideas we start to see the soundness of Descartes argument. According to Hume, ideas are formed from impressions corresponding to real objects. Thus if I am capable of thinking, I am capable of apprehending myself as a physical body, therefore I must exist. There are other theories of existence just as there are non Euclidean geometries. Theories are, at the end of the day, only tools for understanding. Ariel31459 (talk) 16:28, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, in order to "doubt your own existence", you need to have a concept of what existence is. Even having a concept of what existence is infers you exist in some form. What that "existence" specifically means is irrelevant because it's just an agent defining themselves by concepts that emerge from their own nature (which is why I don't see the controversy here). Descartes hasn't even delved into bodies or souls yet but just establishes existence (in some form). It's virtually tautological. That is, unless you question the very concept of concepts or attack the very existence of existence or chip away at definitions of existence until we are left with post-modern relativism. Which is the only place I think machina could be coming from (which I hope he isn't). Do we really need Hume here? Shabi  DOO  16:50, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A theory of ideas that establishes the connection between thinking and real objects is useful. I just happen to like David Hume's simple explanations.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:59, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think (I hope that's not too primitive) it is impossible to doubt your existence and maintain your integration with the world. Resident nihilist here.  I personally could not give a shit if I am more real than you, and there's a weird moment going on right now where I think I should ay "Fuck you, grab that agency, do not forget the means by which you've done so."  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So existentialism versus nihilism,. Cute, cool,, nnot bad, but is it really MORE important that the world exists or that you listen to the nonsense?  I didn't know Dave Chapelle did a thing about George Floyd when I referenced his really fucking good joke about mushrooms.  Don't take it too seriously, Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Good news
The TV show Cops (TV show) has been cancelled! Good riddance- https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/cops-canceled-paramount-network-amid-232724152.html --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 12:30, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bad shows/bad shows/whatcha gonna do/whatcha gonna do/when they cancel you. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:05, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdpLv3RDhA&t=313s HairlessCat (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How does this help anyone? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 18:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I dunno. Seems pretty relevant. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=%2Fg%2F1q5jxk122&geo=US HairlessCat (talk) 18:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's clearly topical, but that doesn't make it good news. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Because it talks about abusive cops being attacked by disgruntled gangsters? HairlessCat (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, because the show cherry-picks and selectively edits free of context to suit a narrative, not to actually show what happened during an arrest. The police are saints who should never be questioned! Now laugh at the public humiliation of this dirty toothless crackhead trying desperately to avoid being imprisoned for their addiction! Semipenultimate (talk) 21:09, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean, Cops is/was just a garbage show in general. Pure grief tourism for privileged suburbanites. 21:39, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The only good thing to come out of the TV show COPS was the My Name is Earl parody episodes. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6r6njg BTW, Ethan Suplee's turn as Darius in Chance was brilliant. Fingers crossed they adapt more Kem Nunn books particularly Dogs of Winter Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Reno 911! is pretty good. A sound guy got killed in a...  I don't know what to call it, it wasn't a crossfire... in a COPS episode filmed in my city.  They scrapped the whole season, if I remember right.  Shit, I didn't want to see this.  This was just a few blocks away from where I was living at the time, I recognize the route they rolled up on.  I also recognize this is not the same as Tamir Rice.  But because the cops fired off their rounds, a completely innocent man died over a police response to a pellet gun robbery.  I am glad COPS is cancelled.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:35, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I remember, even as I was a teenager, utterly LOVING the theme song and finding the production and editing style really interesting...being fairly grossed out by the show. And even my bro-dude friends found it fairly appalling. None of us had any desire to emulate these aggressive-know-it-all-cop-warrior-smug-swaggering-douche-bags. Perhaps the show got a little better. But in the beginning it always seemed like the message was: "it's a hard job and sometimes so have to be rough and even a little dirty to get this vermin off the street". It was always in my mind, that since in most states the US justice system is so harsh and prisons being so brutal that this was nothing but a short lived victory. Shabi DOO  08:05, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * COPS was made for a certain type of TV viewer personality that fits one of the "Trump's biggest fan" types to a tee, the low IQ white types that have both a desire of faux thuggery and vigilante bullshittery, and an irrational fear of black and brown people "crime". Even back in the early 1990s, one could tell that there was a bit of "selective editing" of which crimes actually made the air in order to fit the demographic that watched it. From recent reviews it also seemed to maintain the paranoia of the 1980s War On Drugs (something I remember from the few times I watched it in the 1990s) even in the present... an attitude which these days makes no sense, since the biggest modern "dope pushers" are either FDA approved Big Pharma corps or shady Chinese laboratories. Now that everyone has cell phones, and we can record the "warrior cop"(sarc) bravely shoving a 75 year old man to the ground for being a meanie protester that had the audacity to say meanie words! (/sarc), COPS makes less sense than ever. Unless you are a racist "law and order" type in the Breitbart commentary section. Soundwave106 (talk) 14:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 100 years from now Cops is going to be one of those things people read about in history books with a certain amount of disbelief and bewilderment, like pineapple rentals or rat baiting.- "Shut up, Brx." 14:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I can see the Cracked article now: 5 Crazy Things Our Ancestors Thought Were Appropriate to Televise- "Shut up, Brx." 14:38, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh wow. Pineapple rentals? Is that a sex thing? Please tell us more Shabi  DOO  16:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Pineapples are purported to have been status symbols back in the day. Apparently they would be kept on display at dinner parties of the rich, and since owning one was supposed to be prohibitively expensive, there are claims that people would rent them in order to display them.  Sounds ridiculous, but let's be honest, it would hardly be the weirdest thing about our species- "Shut up, Brx." 16:48, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is an example of the claim.
 * And were they merely #claiming# they were renting the pineapple for show (and there was something more nefarious/dubious going on)? Anna Livia (talk) 17:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fruit as a display tool's pretty baked into the culture - see the wax versions used for photos and house stagings. Also, hell, look into the celery craze in Great Britain - there's even a specific tablepiece for celery. And more recently, even my east coast parents would talk about the bounty of oranges from Florida at the holidays as children when times were good and the family was flush. The food itself may change but we're always putting some damn foodstuff on a higher pedestal. Semipenultimate (talk) 17:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It is also true that anytime a food becomes an expensive rarity, fraud is bound to lurk around the corner. See for a modern food that sometimes attracts ridiculous prices, or even less ridiculous but still relatively expensive examples like extra virgin olive oil fraud. Climate change and over-fishing will probably increase the amount of "rare" (and thus "higher pedestal") foods, I imagine, over time. Lobster was "once only fed to poor people and prisoners", per Gizmodo.
 * I said "claim" because the only sources I could readily find to explain pineapple rentals seemed like "fun fact" repositories. So I wasn't inclined to make an assertion that later proved to be incorrect.  What can I say, I take the historicity of pineapples very seriously- "Shut up, Brx." 17:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Bernie rejects "Defund the police" (TDPS)
Opinions?

— Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 11:58, 12 June 2020 (UTC) (forgot to sign before)

First off, please use a signature. Now that being said, I support police reform and stricter laws/punishments for police who attack civilians. Hold corrupt cops accountable for their crimes. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh shoot, I forgot to sign. But I am talking about the "Defund the police" movement, obviously (I hope) we all support police reform. It's more about whether "Defund the police" makes sense rhetorically instead of, say, "Divest from the police". — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 11:58, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * no its not about some rhetorical flourish of using defund over divest.
 * the argument is that the police are the first responders for situations created by a whole raft of social issues, mental health and addiction for example, that can be dealt with more effectively by community led social programs and outreach, or education and healthcare organisations. and that the police's approach as they have taken on more and more of these things, say an individual in mental health crisis, is the same approach as with a criminal act of some kind.
 * defunding the police here means putting that money into those social programs and organisations so they are dealt with before it gets the point you need the police in the first place.
 * issues with this, include what role if any the police have here. if still present, but diminished, would still need reform and would face huge hurdles is regaining the trust of black communities. if so defunded that there is no police, then how would crime be dealt with, as social programs wont prevent crime entirely, no matter how effective.
 * the other big issue is what those programs and organisations to be funded are in the first place. is there any clear plans for this, or inquiries looking into it? one the reasons the police have been expected to pick up the slack is the things that deal with health and social issues are the very things the us has spent so much time defunding over the years, and ideologically opposed to - look at universal healthcare in the us as a case in point.
 * reform of the police cannot achieve anything on its own. it cannot hope to regain the trust it need to work effectively without it being seen as a radically different organisation, and it cannot do that if the social economic situation remains unchanged in the communities it polices.
 * whatever someone means when they say 'defund the police' - completely or partially - it means a reorganisation of society. theres no simple answer to all of this. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:54, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Then "reorg" should have been the term in the first place. :) Truthfully, I've been using the term "reorganize" the police since I think this fits what I've heard the goal is better (namely, to divert some of what now is a generic "enforcement" angle into more community oriented programs and safety nets for mental health cases etc.). This also would allow for increasing accountability. "Defund" is a horrible term, on face value it suggests taking away funding for the police and nothing more. Some things regarding the police force do need "defunding" (namely, the militarization angles) but I'd think you'd have to be an idiot to want to wish the entire police force to go away. Soundwave106 (talk) 12:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Given the political culture related to cops here in the US, anything more than licking their boots and reassuring their egos seems like it'd be a tough sell. 12:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * American police is mostly local, and surprisingly in the last decade there have been a few cities that made reforms that worked well, Camden being the most cited example. Yes, if the district is dominated by that large segment of Americans that think fascism when they wave the American flag, reform is going to be a tough sell. If Minneapolis's reforms (which may go many ways but might use Camden as a model for all I know) work too, though, as well, more cities with Democratic governments (and that's the way they are trending, eh?) might be tempted to implement at least some of the measures. Here's hoping, at least. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue is that the far-left in the US (by which I mean the people to the left of Bernie, communists, anarchists and such) are using "defund the police" when instead the proposals being given are to divest from the police, investing in mental health counseling, sociological research, so forth. Defunding the police doesn't make any sense and is easily used by trumpists to smear the protests as "anarchist" or "anti-police". — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 14:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * minneapolis have been here before. if the focus remains solely within the police, it cannot work. its a sticking plaster. you have a society that discriminates and criminalises black americans in everyway possible, judged disproportionately harder by a justice system on needlessly harsh laws and imprisons them in massively disproportionate numbers. with the racist associations of race and criminality that must breed, its no wonder that police treat black people as criminals. police murder isnt an aberration, its the result of a socio economic system working as intended.


 * but we go in circles. the conversation hasnt really moved on to much from a week ago.


 * the systemic and societal changes that might help communities brutalised by laws and government policy and by the enforcing police forces, that would be funded if the police were to be defunded has yet to crystallise into tangible plans of action or even clear goals makes any progress slow and piecemeal, if at all.


 * reform of the police is an easier fix, limited in scope and to a specific state's police force. it might quell some black anger and assuage some white guilt, but we will likely be having this conversation again a year or two down the line. and we can wring our hands again at what can be done. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What do you think "Divest" means? — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 15:28, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh no if we're not centrist assholes, we might get "smeared" like the centrist assholes do anyways. American police are massively overfunded massively overmilitarized and completely lacking meaningful oversight.  Quis custodet ipsos custodes.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What? — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 18:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm replying specifically to the dumb thing you said. If you don't say a goddamn thing that's even remotely extreme, you still get smeared as an extremist by the right.  This is an incredibly obvious insight about american politics, and your need to play defense against it is has no upside.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that centrism has a very different meaning in the US than it does outside of it. Raven to my knowledge isn't from the US, so please apply Hanlon's Razor. 18:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, i'm European. I just didn't understand who the centrist asshole is. — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 18:54, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I'd say the left in America is really closer to parties that fall in the centre or even centre-right spectrum in most of continental Europe.. For example the PP party of Spain (whose views mostly fall on the centre and right side of the spectrum) and the Christian democrats of Germany and Belgium (same) while in government have implemented policies that go far beyond what even Sanders has proposed (and these parties are considered conservative by continental European standards). In all three of these countries (as with almost all European countries and Canada) there are at least 5 parties with seats in parliament and most have quite a few more. In any case left/centre/right aren't used as neurotically nor as toxically as they are in the blue/red US (and increasingly in the UK). To be a centrist is hardly a taboo, what's more taboo is even labeling yourself. For example to call yourself a leftist is strange in many countries because so many overlapping ideologies fall on that side of the spectrum. And to call anyone an asshole centrist (let alone an asshole-leftist or asshole-rightist) is ridiculous. The hyper generalization involved says more about how a person engages in political profiling than anything meaningful about the political views they are attacking. Shabi  DOO  19:11, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you consider yourself a centrist in america you are an asshole. I've made an active effort to look for exceptions, and there are none.  "You could just as easily say ..." No.  You can't.  Condescending dipshits with nothing to add to any conversation.  Not caused the world as much harm as the right has, but not for lacking of trying.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:20, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As an European who follows American politics somewhat closely, I understand the frustration. However, the American public is quite conservative and we have to be strategic. Cooler heads prevail. And Bernie is right, the American far-left is not. Irrational anger won't solve your problems. — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 19:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * quibbling over the difference between defund and divest in a slogan where it makes zero practical difference will solve fuck all either. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, rhetoric matters. Sadly, I wish substance was more important. An example would be how polls about medicare for all are framed: if the pollster asks "are you in favor of abolishing private insurance" vs. "do you support a state health insurance that covers everybody for every essential service?", you get different answers. Unless you think that analogy doesn't work here. — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 21:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Notoriously, the approval of the Affordable Care Act in polls cha nged if the phrase "Obamacare" was used in the poll, too. Rhetoric is funny like that. Bernie's argument actually seems to be only concerned about rhetoric -- the Youtube video is a little clickbait-y in title, though not in content, as he is simply preferring the term "transformation", and basically describes his desire to smarten police forces. Incidentally, I think the full New Yorker interview with Sanders is a very good read, and I'm not even a big Sanders supporter per se. Soundwave106 (talk) 23:01, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * really not the same. obamacare is somewhat loaded in comparison to ACA. defund vs divest are both neutral that regard.
 * in that article, sanders seems not to understand that defunding the police covers a range of ideas, where the complete abolishment is only one. when he talks of transformation of the police, it doesnt sound a whole different than reforms floated elsewhere. he refers to a letter i havent seen that goes into more detail so i cant comment too much on that. but while we talking about rhetoric, 'transformation' sound almost uplifting or that the police are going to get a make over. i wonder how that would go down with protesters? its not enough to have reformed, police forces are going to need to go out of their way to show that they really have changed.
 * there does seem to be some talk investment in communities and a criminal justice commission. that positive i guess. still just talk at this stage. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Opinion: sure, whatever. Slogans are good for sloganeering; not so much as actual policy. "Defund the police" is fine for trying to move public opinion. One cute aspect of it is that even "lefties" like Sanders can use it in a "balance argument" to paint themselves as the reasonable middle ground between two extremes, which helps shift the Overton window. "Oh no, I'm not one of those crazy 'defund the police' radicals who wants everyone to be literally murdered in their sleep by serial killers. But we clearly need massive systemic change in law enforcement in this country. People can't say change isn't needed when they see the stories every day of people of color in this country killed and brutalized in broad daylight by law enforcement." For evaluating Sanders's job performance, what matters is actions, not words. What is he voting for, who is he campaigning for, etc. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 15:28, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I think I might be the world's worst gardener
You might not think so looking at the lovely, healthy, and vigorous tomato plants coming up in my garden, but I planted spinach. I didn't even buy tomato seeds. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * High-five for the spinach fail! Shabi  DOO  17:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Volunteers" in gardening parlance. There seems to be some contestation about what is the gateway drug to gardening. is it tomatoes (traditional) or marijuana (post-legalization)? Bongolian (talk) 18:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, these aren't volunteers in the traditional sense, they're growing in the neat little rows I planted spinach seeds in. Which means way too densely packed for tomato plants.  My current working theory is "I got screwed over by Big Seed". ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:17, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's hard to take this kind of hyperbole seriously ikanreed. The only people I would disparage politically are the ones who vilify an enormous group of people for their vague political ideology. It's pure prejudice. And what...for a group of people who can hardly even be properly defined?  Shabi  DOO  22:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to grow onions for a few months now, but they are all dying... MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want me to explain why that is confusing, ask me tomorrow. Big love for ya.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:36, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Dave Chapelle Netflix special
Quite frankly incredibly powerful. Cannot understate the emotional impact it will have on you, or anyone capable of basic empathy-Hastur! (talk) 20:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I wanted to say something in reply, to convey emotions, to express support for those who can march, and as I type this I've realized that Chapelle has conveyed it all. 22:28, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Being able to joke about a thing means at ;east pme voew pm saod tjomg. that the audience is also thinking about the thing from two views, Love Dave Chappelle, he's a communicator like we've rarely seen.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

So trump just defined trans people out of existence
Fucking yikes. What a horrible sack of shit this POTUS is. 22:45, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is what pisses me off when people grandstand against Biden. We can't wait another 4 years to maybe get something done.  People are suffering now.  Things are getting worse now.-Hastur! (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are correct. The country likely can't take another four years of this without something breaking. 22:55, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I tell "never bideners" or whatever we call them that they certainly don't owe Biden their vote, but they absolutely owe it to all of our grandchildren. It's been pretty effective here in southeastern CT. 138.207.198.74 (talk) 03:46, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I always had an impression "never Bernie" dems were bigger in number than "never bideners", correct me if I'm wrong. Dogeatsdog (talk) 03:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That is correct at the moment. 03:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the country not being able to take much more of this. Honestly, I'm worried we're not going to make it to January. (Since Trump will actually leave power in January.) I am unable to comprehend how people can look and Biden and Trump and decide, 'These two things are basically the same, it doesn't really matter' or 'Biden's worse than Trump'. Side note: Am I the only one who thinks that Trump will pull a and run away to Russia, out of our fuckin' reach.--NavigatorBR (Talk) -  04:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How certain are you that Trump will actually leave power in January, regardless of any election or "election"? --47.146.63.87 (talk) 15:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you see the Pentagon brass reaction to Trump's recent "Bible photo op?" There's no way this would happen at all unless privately much of the Pentagon brass are extremely pissed off at Trump. As long as that is the case, Trump will leave power if he is voted out in January, whether he wants to or not. Soundwave106 (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The main thing is, what he and his party are already gearing up to do is disrupt the election and either ensure it goes their way, or sow enough confusion that there is no single accepted outcome, and then argue that Democrats tried to steal it and Trump deserves another term anyway. They've literally been telegraphing this for years. Remember that Trump openly said the popular vote was "stolen" from him in 2016. "Stolen" is code for "Democrats voting", by the way. This is a good example of the kind of Panglossian thinking common among well-meaning liberal-ish types: there will obviously be an election like clockwork, it will go off without a hitch, and everyone will abide by the universally-recognized result, because of course they will. No other outcome is possible in "the greatest country on Earth". Might wanna look at the Georgia primary that just happened. And reminder, Republicans already pretty much stole the Presidency in 2000. And from further back, the 1876 United States presidential election was phony. Southern whites basically disrupted it with their terrorist insurgency, and then cut a deal to let the Republicans have the Presidency in exchange for ending Reconstruction. In other words, terrorism sometimes works. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 19:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That would be my analysis as well. Trump is pretty much drumming up a persecution narrative to try to throw any results that favor the Dems into question. Georgia was likely the first taste of what's to come, as GOP politicians have used the pandemic as a cover to smuggle in voter suppression and other ethically dubious legislation. Overall, I'd be wary of expecting Trump to leave without a fight. I'd also caution against relying on the military to save the day, as their current leadership seems at least somewhat willing to back Trump if they think they can get away with it. 19:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This document is not something one makes public if one is not extremely pissed off. Opinions may change, but this basically was a reminder from the Joint Chief of Staffs to military leaders that the Constitution outlines the values they serve. If Trump wants to defy the Constitution, the Pentagon will not be on Trump's side. So I'm not worried about what happens if Biden is elected. Both of you are correct though that voter oppression attempts will happen here big time. My thought here is that sometimes these efforts actually backfire (see Wisconsin). Probably the best way to counter this is to make it very clear what the GOP is up to. It won't help in areas where the Trumper fascists dominate, but it will possibly help in "middle ground" states (Wisconsin isn't very liberal, but neither is it Bible-belt conservative). Soundwave106 (talk) 20:36, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What are you going to do about it? --47.146.63.87 (talk) 15:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * According to that tweet’s reference (a Department of Health and Human Services press release), the policy in question is an Obama-adminsitration redefinition of terms that was found in court to be in likely violation of some existing laws. The Department of Health and Human Services was therefore enjoined from following the new policy since before Trump took office. In October of last year, a final judgement was issued to that effect. The press release is stating that the regulations on the books have now been brought into accordance with the ruling. What does this have to do with Trump himself? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 05:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * True, Trump personally could not give less of a shit, nor could he explain to anyone what "trans" is, if he's even heard the term. ("Well everyone tells me, you know, we build so many transmissions, we do the best trans, but now China is killing us, and so many people are saying, thank you Mr. President, sir, you've started winning bigly on trade, a lot of people are saying this, believe me.) This of course is the heteropatriarchial "social conservatives" in the Republican Party trying to "turn back the clock" by whatever means they feel is most effective. I do dislike the tendency many have to focus on specific individuals because it tends to reinforce the view that all things that matter are done by the few Great Men of History and obscures important things like social dynamics and how power is wielded and exercised. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 15:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Started working on a new EAS project
The following is an emergency warning issued by the order of the Palestinian National Authority. Medical personnel in Gaza City have confirmed the presence of an unknown disease in over ten thousand people. Everyone infected with the disease has the following symptoms- headache, fever, nausua, meningitis, bleeding of the eyes, skill discoloration, necrosis, changes in mood and homicidal aggression. It is unknown as to how the disease spreads but it is believed to be airborne. You are advised to remain indoors at this time. The Palestinian National Authority has deployed personnel to Gaza City to contain the infection. Scientists do not yet know what causes the disease. Initial tests show a possible fungal infection. If you are outside Gaza City and are getting this warning, please evacuate now. If you are in Gaza City stay indoors, gather enough food and water to last one week, lock all doors and windows. Remain calm. Failure to follow these precautions will likely result in contracting the disease. Do not go outside unless absolutely necessary. The Prime Minister will speak on all stations later today.

My first alert for the video! I will call it "Palestine Zombie Outbreak" --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 02:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Okay I will just include the Palestine zombie outbreak as part of a global zombie apocalypse. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ) is hilarious but also good for Trump...
...because it removes attention from the protests against systemic racism and police brutality because CHAZ is so ridiculous. I am even inclined to think (and I know this is without evidence and thus not worth believing, but I am just stunned by the ineptitude of the CHAZ anarchists) that those are all 4chan trolls pretending to be on the left. I mean, look at what they call their "plantation" that is supposed to feed people (afaik they ran out of food very quickly), their "leader" (allegedly) got ousted for sexual harassment in 6 hours, and I think cops/feds are allowing these teenagers to do their thing because of how absolutely comedic the whole situation is. If anyone wants to defend CHAZ or correct the things I said, let me know. Trump is loving this. And I hate Trump. (Also please, anyone in swing states, vote Biden, for the love of gawd). — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 06:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Congrats on spouting propaganda. As I have stated elsewhere, these people are not anarchists. 11:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, given that the burden of proof is on you, please defend your other positions. Cite sources. 11:51, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I thought this was the chatter section? For what claim do you demand evidence specifically? — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 12:09, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * All of it. 12:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You want evidence for the claim that I think CHAZ is hilarious, too? — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 12:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Good for Trump as in propagandists will put a negative spin on it. That way, anything is good for Trump.  I'm starting to think your ineptitude means you're just a 4chan man. HairlessCat (talk) 12:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, fair enough, I guess everything is pro-Trump if we can't ridicule an obvious hilarious situation that is the CHAZ. — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 12:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Some protesters usurped control over a small area and turned it into a nice hippie commune in protest of government ineptitude/oppression and have stayed this long without being wiped out by the police, so that's pretty good in my book as well as hilarious in a positive way. My point is that Trump could put a negative spin on something and use it to his advantage, no matter if it's good or bad. You haven't really demonstrated why you think it's bad, so . . . uh, go back to 4chan. HairlessCat (talk) 12:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Mhm, everyone who isn't an anarchist and thinks CHAZ is stupid is a 4chanhead. You got me really good there. — Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 12:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven stop disingeniously presenting HCs point. 12:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a historical precedent for CHAZ- Freetown Christiania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania), things there have worked out for the most part and it is like CHAZ. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 15:38, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A quick survey of news sources suggests that no major national news source really gives a shit. Sure, racist populist sources like Breitbart / WND care about this story tremendously, but you think people who still read these sources will not vote for Trump? Not even sources like, say, The Blaze or Fox News, care too much. (Fox News has it, but a SWAT team being babies and resigning in Hallandale Beach is their top story, and go figure, they have a story about police brutality in Canada (a beating of a First Nations chief in March) just below it for "whataboutism" fun. Hmm... Oh, and the Seattle Times caught Fox News doctoring images regarding CHAZ, naughty naughty!).
 * At any rate, I see no evidence at present that the Zone happened due to anything organized. The police (who were acting extremely aggressive from all reports) just abandoned the area because their extremely aggressive tactics backfired, and they ended up not being able to handle the massive amount of people protesting that resulted. It's not an anarchist movement, it appears to me to be a neighborhood thing where a neighborhood collectively got tired of constant tear gas in the air, and self-barricaded. Soundwave106 (talk) 16:45, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And certainly no evidence that it is primarily the product of 'white anarchists'... ...like as an anarchist the idea that we have the kind of numbers to be instigating violent protests across the United States and also capable of organisinh something like Chaz is bitterly laughable. Also fun to note that almost every scare story about Chaz/Chop being a disorganised hell-hole has been found to be lacking in merit by almost every actual journalist who has investigated it. Some people (liberals especially, but by no means exclusively) need to be a little less trusting of conservative farmings of events - especially when those framings are based on de-contextualised tweets. Get ready, it&#39;s... (talk) 21:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Wonder if there will be CHAZ-like places will be made in other states
Okay probably not Michigan, pretty strong Republican territory. Hell I see tRump flags in town from time to time. Maybe if more people do it then maybe police will get the hint that the American people are tired of their shit (pretty damn obvious but the police don't seem to get it). --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * While it's possible, I don't think it's likely. The CHAZ is a result of a confluence of unlikely events, not organized revolutionary action. 02:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's barely a thing where it already exists. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 04:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And the zone has already been cut in half. Eventually, it'll just fizzle out once the wannabe-anarchists run out of free snacks.  Maybe we could send them some? CoryUsar (talk) 05:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They aren't anarchists, and what the fuck is wrong with you? — Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They are totally a bunch of wannabe-anarchists who want to cosplay as revolutionaries, at least if you ignore the junkies who just want to do drugs in the street. I've been to Seattle, it's full of overly aggressive drug addicts, the kind that will come up to a group of ten year old girls and start screaming profanities.  Meanwhile, the cops won't do anything.  I witnessed an attempted murder while I was there (just 1 day, mind you!), and when I dialed 911, I got a goddamn phone tree.  The place is simply begging for some old-school style Mafia to come in and clean it all up.
 * As for the Bag'o'dicks, well, there was this other group of nutters who took over a bunch of property in protest and got a few presents as a result...CoryUsar (talk) 01:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Silly Side Note
"Fox News falls for Monty Python joke in report criticising Seattle protesters". There are no Monty Python nerds at Fox News. This explains a lot. :) Soundwave106 (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Again
I would prefer if white teenagers didn't attempt to get attention for their cause by diverting it from the protests that actually have meaning. Is that an 'extreme' take? 13:03, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * where are seeing where that might be a problem? AMassiveGay (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You... You do realize this thing was founded by BLM protesters right? Right?!?! 14:25, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * White anarchist teenagers that are consuming more time than they should. 14:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel like I should remake this cover specifically for Raven's childish Ad Homs. 17:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Where did I call anyone Hitler? 18:47, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the creation of this, based off the image I linked to above. 19:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ah, funny. 19:47, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Where are all the 'White Anarchists'(tm)?
As a "small a" anarchist, I can count the number of other anarchists who live within an hour's drive of my house on one hand. And I don't think I could count on any of them to be in a personal position (in terms of risk) or of a mental disposition to be interested in activism that was any more militant than education, marching and fund-raising (myself included). It may be a different case in other cities with different labour histories but, UK wise, anarchist orgs are typically fucking tiny. And from what I can gather the situation in the U.S. is often much the same barring a couple of exceptions.

With that in mind I am obviously highly sceptical of this idea that there are widespread gangs of white anarchists provoking violence (even from an id pol perspective it just erases black anarchism but that's neither here nor there).

I'm sure there are some privileged kids on what amounts to a glorified revolution safari somewhere in the mix, but I find it highly unlikely that the primary threat to organising in BLM comes from obscure fringe groups who a month ago would have struggled to get their membership numbers out of the single-digits. Quite honestly, I highly doubt anarchists in the U.S. are organised enough, well funded enough or even numerous enough be logistically capable of even half the level of insurrection that conservatives and liberals credit them with.

The conservative game is obvious: Tar BLM with a term that is ill-understood but sounds scary to their conservative fan base and centrist on-lookers while also stoking division between factions in the BLM movement to get the moderates fighting to disown the radicals until everyone is exhausted and the status quo resumes.

With liberals I think this is partly a case of falling for the trap laid by their opponents and partly a case of displacement.

Many liberals have had very limited experience of large emotive protests and haven't really come to terms with the chaos that can result when a large crowd of disparate and angry people are confronted by heavy handed (or even passive) police force. The result is a desire to pretend that everything that happens at a protest that they don't like is the result of either police/far right agent provocateurs or a privileged revolutionary tourist who doesn't really belong to the movement as they understand it.

This allows them to sanitise BLM and avoid coming to terms with the fact that protest movements consist of broad coalitions of different people often with differing aims/motivations/fears/desires and temperments. And not all them will behave according to your media friendly '#Resistance' idea of protest... ...at least not all of the time.

I'm just honestly baffled at the extent to which people seem to have bought into this.Get ready, it&#39;s... (talk) 21:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Two points, one Anarchists here the US are bit more organized than that, though their groups are smaller in number than others. (19th-20th century attacks to labor groups have taken their toll on this country...) Secondly, while your point is valid, that can depend on the size of the group/cause. Smaller groups will trend more homogeneous, while larger ones will be more varied. And in the case of massive movements likes BLM (or Antifa), we're talking lots of groups of various sizes organizing in a semi-unified pattern, plus non-group volunteers. 03:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I take your point/s GrammarCommie. Regardless of the level of organisation seen in U.S. Anarchism, and from conversations with U.S. anarchists mostly seems to revolves around food not bombs, antifascism work and the occasional housing co-op, the level of scolding on the part of liberals and conservatives on the topic of "White Anarchists(tm)" seems really disproportionate to the actual number of confirmed anarchist groups organising at the moment.


 * Add to that the criteria used by liberals to identify 'anarchists' seems to be just:


 * "Anyone white, maybe wearing some black, doing or saying anything that us liberals don't like."


 * And it starts to feel like this is in part an ideological exercise. There's no real sign that acts of vandalism, violence or looting are being carried out primarily by ideologically motivated anarchists, nor does there seem to be any real evidence that the majority of it is being carried out mainly by white people.


 * Occam's razor says that the most likely explanation for the (largely unremarkable and expected) violence is that large emotive national protests occasionally do break out in violence and sometimes criminal groups and opportunists exploit this. That's not a moral judgement on BLM, just a fact of large scale protest - it will most probably happen regardless of who is doing the organising.


 * On the topic of scale, I think we are driving at the same point?


 * Broad-church movements are often politically and socially diverse and that means tactics aren't always uniform. I think whipping up a witch hunt for white anarchists is a way for naive progressives to retroactively sanitise what is a much more heterogeneous movement than they would like it to be. Get ready, it&#39;s... (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, we are in agreement on scale and how the mainstream in the U.S. seems to view anarchism. 17:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Community Input requested
For the sake of expedience, I've called a vote to the Martin Luther King Jr page here. I'd like the mobocracy to weigh in, please-Hastur! (talk) 13:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Your problem is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have toward boys is probably not an innate tendency, but something that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconsciously repressed. Therefore, it is necessary to deal with this problem by getting back to some of the experiences and circumstances that lead to the habit. In order to do this I would suggest that you see a good psychiatrist who can assist you in bringing to the forefront of conscience all of those experiences and circumstances that lead to the habit. You are already on the right road toward a solution, since you honestly recognize the problem and have a desire to solve it.
 * 14:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I say.... post it? Who fucking cares, the guy was a pastor in the 50s, not a social psychologist.  Not some dipshit in 2020 trying to prove that past figures are, big surprise, also flawed in their thinking.  So, if you want to ask if humanity and personhood and agency and equality all matters, don't bring little caveats to Dr. King.  Youu would have to be ignorant of a lot of history.  If you want to ask if equality and agency are not divided by a racial boundary, but rather a social one, Dr. King nailed the response.  I forgive him for his misclassifications outside of his wheelhouse.  Like, I'll listen to Joe Rogan if he's talking about smoking pot or UFC.  Martin Luther King Jr was a preacher who saw value in black lives above the idea of  bask  criminality and hums worth as chattel, and despite that being a pervasive opinion, was able to get his message out.  And our full support of that message, you're still dragging him.  Which is fine, a human may say stupid things, but really, introspectively think about what you've been looking into, what you're excited to find and share, and what is going on around you.  A bad take is common.  Post it, it doesn't make the thing he really understood, agency and civil empowerment, and a complaint about a life less inherently powerful.  Unless, if you think it would, then there are also people who think it would.  In which case, your decision, not the "mobocracy".  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Winston Churchill
If you disapprove of Winston Churchill (rather than seeing him as a person of his time and his cultural/class milieu, being somewhat out of sync with present worldviews) donate his image to your favourite wiki(s). Anna Livia (talk) 15:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Does this Churchill issue have sommething to do with the famine in Bengal in 1943 - it is the land of my ancestors. Teerthaloke101 (talk) 09:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. Very much so. Spud (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Ice Cube
When I logged in to Twitter the other day, people were complaining about some tweets by Ice Cube that were either anti-Semitic or pro-Russia. I thought, no big deal, Ice Cube will delete those tweets and apologize. Besides, most of the complainers were neocons, so this wasn't abnormal or anything. One day later, I found out that Ice Cube had shared a cartoon by the racist and sexist artist Ben Garrison, and realized that Ice Cube has a "problem". — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  16:45, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Many rappers have their fair share of inverse stopped-clock moment, I wouldn't focus too much on their irrational thoughts unless they constitute a huge part of their persona, e.g. Immortal Technique. Dogeatsdog (talk)
 * He's also posting a bunch of Black Hebrew Israelite stuff. 19:46, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I know afrocentrism or belief in "black Jesus" kind of thing is extremely common among rappers, especially the conscious ones. I think it would be better to discuss it on a genre-level rather than trying to spot individual rappers, there are too many wacky ones. Dogeatsdog (talk) 19:52, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

History geek tangent on Confederate forts
With the proposal to rename US military bases that are named after Confederate traitors now gaining steam, I put a bit of thought into my own personal renaming wishlist. I know I'm going on a tangent, but let the history geek have this one. Let's name bases after heroes, not slavers!
 * Fort McAuliffe—honors Anthony McAuliffe, famous for defying the Nazis at the Battle of the Bulge. Replaces Fort Lee in Virginia.
 * Fort Murphy—honors Audie Murphy, the most decorated US soldier in US history. Replaces Fort Hood in Texas.
 * Fort Tuskegee—honors the Tuskegee Airmen. Replaces Fort Rucker in Alabama.
 * Fort Harlem Hellfighters—honors the Harlem Hellfighters, one of the best units the US ever produced. Replaces Fort Polk in Georgia.
 * Fort Barrage—honors the 320th Barrage Balloon Battalion. Replaces Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia.
 * Fort Bradley—honors five-star general Omar Bradley. Replaces Fort Bragg in North Carolina.
 * Fort Marshall—honors George Marshall, Army Chief of Staff under FDR and Truman. Can go anywhere.
 * Fort James—honors Daniel James Jr., first black four-star US general. Replaces Fort Beauregard in Lousisana.
 * Fort Davis—Honors Benjamin Davis, commander of the Tuskegee Airmen and four-star general. Replaces Fort Pickett in Virginia.

Just a few ideas. I like to have fun with US military history every now and then. 19:44, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't believe you went with Bradly over the more obvious choice. Beckwith. 19:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually don't know who that is. I Googled the name and just found a Wikipedia page on a white supremacist who assassinated a civil rights leader? 19:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't believe you don't know who was.  19:53, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Then there's the question of James Longstreet, who went traitor but repented and became a hardcore pro-equality officer after the war. Lee called him his "Old War Horse", and he commanded the obviously suicidal Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg, which he repeatedly warned Lee against ordering, but Lee ignored his advice and ordered it anyway. Oddly enough he doesn't have much in the way of monuments or stuff named after him for a traitor general! I wonder why that is, he asked rhetorically. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 23:39, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd have believed the military's "we honor our most effective enemies" spiel a bit more if they had named something more noteworthy than a latrine after Osama.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 04:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * would be a good choice. Bongolian (talk) 08:14, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Question for those outside the United States: How much anti-police protests are there going on?
Okay I read an article stating that there were Black Lives Matter police protests taking place in the UK, France, Switzerland, Taiwan and Japan. Anyone have information on that? Kinda curious. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You were right about there being a Black Lives Matter rally in Taiwan. But it was a Black Lives Matter rally rather than an anti-police protest. And it appears to have been an entirely peaceful protest. Spud (talk) 08:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There were a few in the Netherlands, although most were in solidarity with the US. Most also didn't have to do with police violence, but moreso with institutionalized racism. There also were a few pretty major gaffes surrounding them. An example is the very first protest in Amsterdam, which broke social distancing rules (1.5 meter distance), but the mayor refused to break up the protest and was an active participant in them. Later protests did keep the 1.5 meter rule intact, so she really had no excuse for not being able to enforce it in Amsterdam (esp. since the police did break up a 5G protest that wasn't following social distancing guidelines). I do get the optics of not wanting the police to step in, but there could've been so many better ways to handle it without sending in the police. Another had to do with vandalizing the statue of Piet Hein in Rotterdam, alledging that he was the reason that the WIC participated in slavery. Only problem with that was that Hein was enslaved himself for a few years during his life, one of his most notable legacies is freeing slaves from the Spanish, was for the time notably outspoken against slavery and died 7 years before the WIC went into the slave trade. The problem here really lies in the organizers of these protests, KOZP. They do strive to do good things (black pete is a bit of a bad remnant of our history), but they tend to be so fucking bad at getting people to support them. Granted, KOZP wasn't behind vandalizing the statues, but there were other gaffes surrounding them during these protests (a notable one being someone threatening to commit violence if someone dressed up as black pete and he saw them). 10:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not a lot here in Switzerland, but some. 15:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * they are not anti police protests in the uk, there are anti racist protests AMassiveGay (talk) 18:17, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There was a modest rally in a couple Spanish cities. It was in solidarity with BLM. That doesn't mean there aren't problems with systemic racism but it was barely touched on. Anti-police protests, no. Local police are mostly respected and I feel safe when they're around. Of course there's ALWAYS room for improvement but it's hard to imagine a protest. The country is also recovering from a brutal COVID-19 lock-down and high death count. Basically most Spanish people are utterly baffled and horrified that police brutality and racial profiling in the US is so bad and nothing's been done about it over the decades. Shabi  DOO  18:57, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Police brutality in Spain is certainly a problem. https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/oct/01/catalan-referendum-hundreds-injured-as-police-attack-protesters-video 19:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was talking about local police. The riot-police are terrible. Shabi  DOO  20:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also living in Spain. Agree with Shabidoo.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:15, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Another thing. Although Spanish police carry guns, they don't take them out a lot. If somebody actually got shot it would make national news.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh fair enough. How do you feel about Sánchez?  20:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Luckily the riot police engage in an unsavoury way like once a year if even. So I don't imagine there being any massive calls to reform. I think it's extremely important to do so but there are other priorities with the brutal COVID-19 infection here. I hope the Sanchez does get around to it, our security forces should be more like Norway's. But yeah, I don't hesitate to call emergency services cause it's the local police coming, not the riot-police. And I don't worry about the riot-police elevating a random traffic stop into a violent affair, or to shoot an unarmed minority. As for his Priministership, meh. Spanish politics became very toxic with the emergence of a far-right party last year. And, compared with political theatres I'm somewhat familiar with (Belgium, Canada, UK for example) the leaders of the various parties are such unashamed opportunists and stubborn and ridiculous it's hard to take any of it serious. The spin is tiring and I don't think the socialist coalition will be able to achieve much considering. It's a bummer because the last time there was a socialist government the reforms were numerous, extremely progressive bringing breathtaking change. People are distracted by the brutal effect COVID-19 had here. So I guess...wait one year to see if they last and can do anything meaningful? Shabi  DOO  20:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. But I would say that although Sanchez has made some mistakes he's in a very difficult political position.  He's running a minority government in the midst of a highly-politicized crisis. And with a really byzantine parliament which includes: a party from the Spanish hard right; two parties (arguably) from the center right; his own center left party which is in coalition with with another coalition of left-wing populists and (ex?) Communists; a center right Basque nationalist party; a far left Basque nationalist party; and some Catalan nationalist parties from both right and left.  (Catalan politics being a whole world unto itself which I can't keep up with.) Keeping all these people onside and propping up the quarantine at various times in and in various is clearly not easy.  UK and US politics is simple by comparison.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think I should have said "Anti-Police Protest" but rather "Anti-Racism Protests" or "BLM Protests". What I originally put is what came to mind. Anyways thank you all for the info, I was curious about the situation outside the US. I did not know the full scale of it. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Why age restrictions are useless
Did you know that the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) was created by a conspiracy theory? During the 90s, parents were concerned that games were shaping kids' minds to turn them violent, a myth still believed by many to this day. For years, people have tried their best to censor movies, TV, music, games, and books because they believe that they can have a negative influence on kids. Numerous studies have shown otherwise and actually proved that ratings systems make kids wanna watch/play/read even more. I hate this because it's nothing more than a placebo for making parents prevent tragedies and such. Iceland, for example, lacks any age restriction for media at all, and they may be the most peaceful nations in the world. Violence is in particular an American problem, and our media has nothing to do with it. Just outlaw these already, there no good for literally anything. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  20:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're almost right, but there's an extra step involved. The ESRB was created out of the myth of violence in games, yes. However, it was created in order to allow them to dodge any real political repercussions. The industry would self police, and in exchange, they would be left alone by politicians. It's interesting to see how the ESRB has now added lootbox markings on the boxes now that politicians are looking into how they produce gambling addictions, in order to avoid having to obey to gambling regulations. So it's doubly insidious. As a European though, I much prefer PEGI. It's a much less forced system with much better rating as a general idea. A large part of that is because PEGI has both a 16+ and an 18+ rating. 16+ is just for your graphic CODs and the like. 18+ is only for sexual content. You don't need an ID to buy either, it's just an indicator that mommy probably shouldn't be buying the Witcher 3 for little 6 year old Timmy since it has Gerald doing the dirty. They're also a little better to adapt to the lootbox stuff than the ESRB as a general rule (they added in-game purchase icons in 2018, and 2 months ago they added a very wide description for if a game has lootboxes, whereas the ESRB only started doing both 2 months ago). 20:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Amazing that's also how the MPAA ratings and RIAA ratings and comics code authority happened! What a coincidence! ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Need help debunking Alien Interview
Hello everyone, I don't know if this is the right place to put it but I do need help with this, this is something that's been bothering me for about five or so years and I finally compiled both enough information and enough courage to delve into this rabbit hole. In short, there's a documentary that claims to have "real footage" from Area 51 of Alien's being interviewed, I went through the entire film and bonus feature as well as any potential background information I could find in addition to the evidence presented by believers to prove the validity of this movie.

I want to make a page about this, however I am still too scared of the predictions put forth in the video, I attempted to ask the skeptics at Metabunk however so far nothing came off it.

If I'm honest, I suffer from bad anxiety, my life has been going pretty well but then all of the sudden my mind reminded me of this and I was like "Shit does that mean that the world will end in 8 years?" So, my 5 year obsession has come to this: Spending hours on research and evaluation and asking people who are more sober minded to help me debunk this thing that caused my paranoia to spike every so often over the course of the past 5 years.

This post is going to be split up into 2 portions: the film itself and the evidence for. Within those section I'll start off with an objective overview of the material, claims presented, my attempt at debunking, things I can't explain/are paranoid about and timestamps of the videos.

If this is the wrong place to put it, I'm sorry and I'll move it to the right place, I just want people to see this so hopefully they can help refute this damn film.

Film overview

This is the film in question: Area 51: Alien Interview (1997) and the 2008 special interview: Area 51: The Alien interview (Victor '08 Bonus Interview)

The film was produced by Vega 7 Entertainment in 1997 and a special edition was released in 2008 which added an follow up interview with the enigmatic Victor. To my knowledge, Vega 7 entertainment only ever released 2 films (excluding the special release of Alien interview) with the other film being a TV movie released in 2000 titled UFO: Best evidence ever caught on tape 2 (source).

The original film is a case study of different alien conspiracy theories based on accounts of people like Bob Lazar and Sean David Morton. It incorporates conspiracy theories like Roswell, Majestic 12, Kalahari and others. Majority of the film is just these conspiracy theories being purported by the host Steven Williams (X from the X-files) with no real evidence aside from anecdotal and speculative. However, the crux of the film realise heavily on an alleged video tape of a real alien interview that was copied by the insider known as victor.

Victor talks about how the aliens talked of spiritual concepts and how the government uses the knowledge for control of mankind instead of its betterment. Many UFOlogists react to the video (with majority of them believing to be a valid tape) and 2 Hollywood makeup artists also react to it with them being more sceptical towards the footage. Throughout the film, Victor is calm and asks people to decide for themselves if they believe it or not.

In the 2008 follow up, Victor is very hostile towards the director. He's angry that no one was able to try and debunk the footage and that others just blindly believed it without much thought. Claims that aliens disclosed that the end will come soon after 2012 (to not plan a 20th anniversary edition of the documentary) and that Donald Rumsfeld was aware of the Alien interviews "since at least 1974" and that he's been planning on getting off the planet before the end comes. He is very specific to ask the audience where Rumsfeld was on the 23rd of March of 2008. He then starts saying Random things at the end and the interview ends.

Claims

claims here are in a numbered list so they can coincide with claims in the brackets next to the time stamps


 * 1) Robert Lazar claims he worked on backwards engineering flying saucers
 * 2) In 1971, David Adair was called in to study the engine of an alien craft
 * 3) Project Sigma and Majestic 12 - Negations between Eisenhower, extra-terrestrials and the government took place; apparently the government needed space technology and in exchange wanted genetic material.
 * 4) Tom Coleman (president of Rocket pictures) claims to have received a phone call from a mysterious man known only as Victor claiming he has video footage of Aliens.
 * 5) Roswell Crash was real
 * 6) In 1949, EBE-1 was kept in custody in a safe house, the alien suffered from chronic health problems that the doctor's couldn't treat. EBE-1 was interviews via pictographs and was said to come from Zeta Reticuli. EBE-1 and the doctors made a language together, it was kept secret because of the cold war
 * 7) James Forrestal was the mastermind of Majestic 12 and wanted to leak the information but he mysteriously died (via Majestic 12)
 * 8) Lazar claims that the area 51 badge read MAJ for Majestic
 * 9) In 1994, Majestic 12 Document was leaked to a UFO researcher - it said that EBE's will be detained and secured as soon as possible. EBE life was expendable.
 * 10) According to an alleged government insider known as Falcon, EBE-2 was fitted with a voice box, and learned English. EBE's spoke via telepathy.
 * 11) Lazar saw scientists speak with aliens and saw documents talking about alien civilisations
 * 12) Inconsistencies in accounts may be a misinformation campaign
 * 13) Aliens spoke about how the spirit is the main pat of the body
 * 14) Rumsfeld has been aware of the interviews since at least 1974 and has been tying to avoid the end
 * 15) The aliens told people of the end that is close to 2012

Those are the claims made in the film, additionally, Victor made claims about the tape in his explanation of it:


 * The room was kept dark for comfort of the Aliens
 * The figure on the left is the telepath
 * The person on the right is the military Aid
 * Alien is seated in a bio-containment area behind glass for their own protection as the aliens have wiped out all microbial and viral life from their ecosystem
 * Alien is in distress and goes into a state of shock
 * Medics are selected for the ability to keep secrets instead of competence

Here is a timeline of events as I understand that the film attempts to purport:


 * 1947 - Roswell Crash
 * 1949 - Alien is reported to have survived, EBE-1 is taken to custody
 * 1949 - James Forrestal dies
 * 1950's - EBE-1 is interviewed via pictographs and creates a language with scientists. Soon after dies of chronic health problems on June 18th, 1952
 * 1950's - EBE-2 is interviewed
 * 1953 - Majestic 12 is created under Eisenhower
 * 1960's - Robert Dean allegedly sees a UFO
 * 1970's - Lazar read a report on a misunderstanding between EBE's and military, all people died with head wounds
 * 1971 - David Adair is called in to work on an engine of alien origin
 * 1974 - Rumsfeld becomes aware of Alien interviews
 * 1988 - Falcon (alleged government whistle blower) said that EBE-2 voluntarily became a guest of the government
 * 1989 - Area 51 badges read MAJ
 * 1989 - Aliens crash in Kalahari
 * 1989 - Another Alien arrives at area 51
 * 1989 - EBE-4 is interviewed
 * 1997 - Victor gets a copy of the alien interview and goes to rocket pictures for it
 * 2008 June - Victor comes back for a final interview

My attempt at logic

To me, the whole things seems very dramatic, apparently the questions were decided before hand yet seems for some reason victor gets pissed off about the questions as he doesn't want to disclose too much.

In the '08 interview he seems much more opinionated and like a completely different person, I can't tell if it's because of the mask but his voice sounds different. A user pointed this out on IMDb (source).

The explanations for why there's no audio and why it's so dark seem just too convenient, as well as the medics being chosen for the ability to keep secrets instead of competence (again the IMDb user pointed that out.)

Another IMDb user points out that maybe the sound stage of a studio was used (source)

Attempting to debunk all claims in the film is difficult as it's many conspiracy theories thrown into one, what I want to focus on is the tape that victor brought and his claims of the end.

Things I don't understand

Why would someone fake this, I just don't understand what the point is.

More importantly, I am most confused and most paranoid about his prediction of the end of the world in the '08 interview. Why would he be so specific about the date where Donald Rumsfeld was?

I also don't understand why this is not in the filmography of people like Steven Williams and Tom Coleman Coleman's IMDb page.

Additionally, I cannot find anything about rocket pictures just a small mention on wikipedia on Coleman's page

Timestamps

Time stamps in bold will be either relating to a claim or I think they're of importance

Film

 '08 Interview
 * 1:27 - Talk of the infamous Alien Autopsy video
 * 2:43 - Allegedly, people who are "38 levels above top secret" are flown to Area 51
 * 3:32 - Exploration of Bob Lazar's claim's about S-4 facility [Claim 1]
 * 3:48 - Interview with Lazar
 * 5:44 - Interview with David Adair
 * 6:13 - Allegation that Adair apparently worked on the engine of a downed aircraft [Claim 2]
 * 7:02 - Interview with Sean David Morton
 * 8:18 - Talks of project sigma, Roswell, and Majestic 12 [Claim 3]
 * 8:38 - Morton describes the alleged deal the US had with aliens [Claim 3]
 * 9:19 - Rocket pictures received a phone call from Victor about the tape [Claim 4]
 * 9:43 - Interview with Tom Coleman (Head of rocket pictures)
 * 11:02 - Talk of Roswell and how aliens were taken to area 51
 * 11:30 - Recreation of an alleged EBE in custody
 * 11:50 - Talk of a 1977 Carter document
 * 11:57 - EBE-1 interview [Claim 6]
 * 12:13 - A language used for communication between humans and aliens was created [Claim 6]
 * 12:38 - This alleged achievement was kept secret because of the cold war [Claim 6]
 * 13:44 - Talk of Project Blue Book
 * 14:02 - Majestic 12 may have been a secret programme
 * 14:50 - Majestic document
 * 14:54 - Allegedly James Forrestal was the mastermind
 * 15:10 - James Forestal mysteriously died in 1949 to silence him about Majestic 12 [Claim 7]
 * 15:47 - Allegedly, Area 51 badges read MAJ on them [Claim 8]
 * 15:54 - 1994 Majestic 12 document [Claim 9]
 * 16:50 - In 1988 an alleged government source code named Falcon claimed that EBE-2 voluntarily was interviewed [Claim 10]
 * 17:30 - EBE-2 interview recreation
 * 18:37 - Telepaths were used to communicate with EBEs
 * 19:13 - US government did research into telepathy
 * 20:16 - Bob Lazar's experience with aliens [Claim 11]
 * 20:53 - Allegedly there was a misunderstanding between EBEs and scientists and the scientists were killed accidentally
 * 21:44 - Allegedly Reagan's speech was meant to declare the end of the cooperation between EBEs and Humans
 * 22:04 - Reagan's speech about alien threat
 * 22:33 - Are the inconsistencies of claims just a misinformation campaign [Claim 12]
 * 23:09 - Victor's Credibility relies purely on the footage he brought
 * 24:10 - Interview with Victor
 * 26:15 - Victor confirms he saw the EBE
 * 26:30 - There are more tapes of the alien interviews however this is the most recent since the alien arrived in 1989
 * 27:00 - The alien revealed bits of information about technology
 * 27:52 - The alien spoke more about spiritual concepts [Claim 13]
 * 28:02 - EBE-4 Interview
 * 29:47 - Explanation of the concept that the body is a vessel, also Heaven's Gate used the concept of vessels
 * 30:13 - Heaven's Gate leader said that people can pass from container to container
 * 32:02 - The beginning of the tape that Victor smuggled allegedly
 * 35:09 - The end of the tape + Victor's explanation why he removed the audio from the tape
 * 35:50 - Victor's description and explanation of the tape
 * 38:44 - Tom Coleman's reaction to the tape (He doesn't know if it's real but he knows it's not a "tricked up version like the alien autopsy")
 * 39:47 - Rocket pictures sent the tape to Jim Dilettoso (renowned image analyst) for analysis
 * 41:18 - There's a probability that the interview was shot on film which contradicts Victor's statement that it was on video
 * 41:42 - "On closer inspection, Dilettoso decided that the images could have been recorded by a video camera under certain specific conditions"
 * 42:18 - Dilettoso's findings were inconclusive
 * 42:50 - Dilettoso's personal opinion (doesn't know, if it's faked the fakers shouldn't do it; if it's real, may give a glimpse of communication with ETs)
 * 43:19 - Adair's opinion (doesn't know if it's real, but thinks it's real)
 * 44:07 - John Criswell (Hollywood make up artist) introduction
 * 44:30 - "By Hollywood standards, it's a pretty decent puppet"
 * 45:20 - Criswell thinks that the alien displayed movement that would be difficult to fake
 * 45:53 - Introduction to Rick Baker, Veteran Hollywood makeup artist
 * 46:12 - Baker's Opinion (he think it's fake and the alien is a puppet)
 * 47:29 - Introduction to Robert Dean (Ex-military, UFOlogist)
 * 48:12 - Robert Dean's opinion (Based on his alleged "first hand experience" he believes the tape is real)
 * 49:34 - Sean David Morton was looking at the technical detail to verify tape's authenticity
 * 49:44 - Morton looks at the time stamp, thinks DNI stands for Department of Naval Intelligence
 * 50:39 - The lighting is dim because (allegedly) this race of alien's is sensitive to light
 * 50:48 - According to Morton, the physical features of the alien are the same/similar to the descriptions of first hand encounters with them
 * 51:16 - The interview is being taken through a glass, which is something that someone who's faking it would not think about
 * 51:40 - Morton's opinion (doesn't know if it's real, but it's very well made)
 * 52:00 - Michael Hesemann (German journalist and UFOlogist) introduction
 * 52:30 - Hesemann says that the aliens may have came from an alleged crash in the African desert of Kalahari in 1989
 * 53:34 - Whitley Strieber introduction
 * 54:16 - What Strieber said about the tape: "I hadn't realized until I saw this, how familiar it would be. If this is a fake, it's really good. It's very difficult to watch this... Because somebody who made this knows something about the way they move. I hope to God it's a fake. Because if it's not, I'm so ashamed for mankind."
 * 54:50 - On may 23rd, 1997- Victor gave a radio interview on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell
 * 55:25 - Art's impression of Victor
 * 55:54 - Art thinks Victor was telling him the truth
 * 57:00 - If the government had access to the technology, why not share it? (Victor's answer: Government's motive is not betterment of mankind, it's control)
 * 57:53 - Victor explains why he chose to get paid for the tape instead of releasing it to the news (needs a small measure of monitory freedom to deal with any eventualities)
 * 59:44 - Robert Dean wants the government to disclose alien interactions
 * 1:02:00 - It's been claimed that the Aliens may be from Zeta Reticuli, but it hasn't been established, they may be from another dimension or reality


 * 2:56 - Victor confirms that he agreed to do a phone interview with Art Bell for promotion
 * 4:34 - Victor gets angry that there has been no follow up, no one managed to debunk or prove it
 * 6:43 - Says Rick Baker doesn't know what he's talking about
 * 7:17 - Claims that the footage he brought is the most convincing footage of aliens ever
 * 9:20 - Claims that Chaney and Rumsfeld knew about the EBEs since Nixon era
 * 10:06 - Asks where Rumsfeld was in the middle of march of 2008
 * 10:29 - Has George Bush has been up to date on the alien interview programme? (Victor claims he's the puppet of the government)
 * 11:44 - EBEs were moved from area 51 to a base at Utah
 * 12:00 - All EBEs are deceased
 * 12:15 - Victor claims this is the last time that he'll ever be seen
 * 12:30 - Says his "container has reached its expiry date"
 * 12:44 - Says "I am not long for this world"
 * 13:45 - "if I am not long for this world, you are not much longer"
 * 13:55 - "End times are upon us"
 * 14:10 - "Aliens came and were allowed to die now the reckoning is upon us"
 * 14:33 - Where was Rumsfeld on 23rd of 2008
 * 14:52 – Rumsfeld has been aware of alien interviews since 1974 [Claim 14]
 * 15:00 – Rumsfeld lost all interest in the united states, he wants to be taken off when the end comes
 * 15:38 – Not biblical but scientific end times are upon us
 * 16:56 – 2012 Mayan calendar is not accurate but it's close, urges to director to not plan a 20th anniversary edition of this documentary [Claim 15]
 * 17:37 - Says "my head is a bee hive" and says something in Latin (I think it's Latin)

Evidence of believers

Overview

In my research, I've noticed that more people are trying to prove the validity of the footage as opposed to debunking it, I'm not quite sure why, but one of the most prolific proponents that the alien Interview is real is a channel on YouTube that is simply called TheAlienInterview.

He's made many videos showcasing his evidence, I'm gonna put forth most of his evidence with making the ones that I find most difficult to debunk bold

Reasons why the Alien interview might be real
 * 1:46 Alien's left eye changes shape/size
 * 2:21 Alien's right eye changes shape/size
 * 2:48 Liquid from mouth
 * 3:12 Liquid from Nose
 * 3:24 Eyes react to light
 * 4:00 Reaction to seeing medics
 * 4:25 Reaction to bright light
 * 4:49 Mouth movement
 * 5:23 Eye's reaction to medics
 * 6:03 Jamie Maussan says 2 dozen doctors said that the video is genuine
 * 7:42 Diletosso's theory is incorrect
 * 8:21 Connection to Kalahari Aliens
 * 13:00 Injuries from crash
 * 13:26 Victor's stubbornness about the footage being real
 * 18:19 Telepath is a military man
 * 18:31 Telepath turns head away in an unexpected manner

The channel also made a Frame by Frame video

Movement of eyes is shown to be at: 2:50, 7:17, 8:34, 9:05, 9:38, 11:08 and 12:12

Liquid pouring from mouth is at 7:31 and nose is at 8:23

Mouth movement at 10:28

Reasons why the Alien interview might be real part 2
 * 1:52 Eye reshaping
 * 2:20 Left eye changing shape
 * 2:44 Right eye's reaction to military aid's device
 * 4:19 Left eye's reaction to medic's flashlight
 * 4:44 and 5:05 reaction to bright light
 * 5:27 Shoulder movement
 * 6:56 Right eye's reaction to touch from medic
 * 7:18 Right eye's reaction to medic's arm movement
 * 7:42 Right eye's reaction to military aid's arm movement
 * 8:04 Right eye's reaction to touch from medic
 * 8:31 Error made by medic, not reharesd actor
 * 9:05 Military aid speaking to telepath despite no audio
 * 9:35 Reaction to bright light
 * 10:01 Proof of VHS to VHS transfer (time code moves, VHS distortion)

In Debunking the debunkers video the believer claims that Victor's original tape wasn't so dark, the neck is too thin to be a glove puppet and the medics light up the body meaning it can't be a puppet and later a guy demonstrates an animatronic doll to show similarities between movement, the believer says that the movement is not even close

Reasons why Alien interview might be real part 3 ''' Here are additional Videos of clues that are on the second channel:
 * 2:41 Reaction to telepaths arm
 * 3:06 Left eye changing size
 * 3:33 Eye's reaction to military aid's movement
 * 3:59 Reaction to touch (head and shoulder movement)
 * 4:21 Left eye changing shape
 * 4:48 Liquid pouring from mouth
 * 5:00 Left eye's reaction to arm movement
 * 5:24 Telepath trying to communicate with Alien
 * 6:16 Non standard medical equipment: unusal stetascope, unusal heart monitor
 * 7:06 Light shield to protect alien from light
 * 7:52 Mystery object on table (for what purpose would a hoaxer place mystery objexts on table?)
 * 8:10 Unidentifiable reflection on glass (for what purpose would a hoaxer have added these unidentifiable reflections?)
 * 8:33 Department of naval intelligence Tag (would a hoaxer have risked giving the game away by adding the initials of a non-existent organisation to the time code?)
 * 9:20 Drawings and descriptions of Kalahari aliens
 * 11:19 Budget to fake such a video would be between $250,000 and $300,000
 * '''12:47 No cut in video (could such a complex video be made in one take?)
 * Liquid pouring from eye socket
 * Neck Veins coincide with Lazar's claims
 * Reaction to touch (Head movement)
 * Reaction to Medic's head movement
 * Reaction to arm movement (Head movement)
 * Reaction to arm movement (Head movement)
 * Example of alien's eye movements
 * Reaction to touch (Head movement mirrored by heart monitor)

This video Explains (allegedly) how victor copied the tapes, I know nothing about stuff like this so I don't know how valid the assumptions of the believer are.

According to the beliver, the original tape brought by Victor was brighter and you could see the telepath more, there was also no puppeteer in background.

My attempt at logic

Most of the claims are frivolous and rely on assumptions based on assumptions, however the ones in bold I find a bit more difficult to make sense out of.

Overall, I'm sorry for such a long post and sorry for my paranoia, I hope this will be able to kill my doubts and finally have some more cohesive rebuttal to the Alien interview as I was unable to find any rebuttals to this on the interne.

Again thank you in advance and sorry about this. -- WMS (talk) 22:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I will take a look at this and get back to you on some of it tomorrow. HairlessCat (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As a FYI the general explanation of what Area 51 is (which is better described in the than ours) is that this is an area reserved for the development of top secret military aircraft and other advanced military technology. The military knew about the UFO rumors, of course. This was very convenient for them, allowing them to wink and nudge at the True Believers and divert them from what was really going on (Arthur C. Clarke's third law sort of applies here, with "aliens" delivering the "magic"). So far, there's no evidence that the government *actively* engaged in a disinformation campaign using the alien rumors as a seed, but I personally feel that this sort of "conspiracy theory" would actually have far more credence than any UFO-ology stuff. The "grey aliens" that have evolved in popular culture are conveniently almost human in appearance (you really only need some sort of mask) and it definitely would not cost $250,000 to film a video that needs little studio lighting and the shitty VHSish camera you need to make everything all fuzzy (all the better to disguise details). It might require someone with some of mask-making / puppetry skills but that's all I see from the first skim. Soundwave106 (talk) 15:03, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is going to get archived far far before discussion is complete. Starting a draft for this will help you keep any useful discussion.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:04, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't think about that, that's a good shout, I'll make a draft of it and hopefully a useful discussion can commence. Thanks for the advice. -- WMS (talk) 19:22, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's the link for the draft, any help with this will be much appreciated. -- WMS (talk) 19:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Developing a book character with a tragic past
Kinda working on developing a main character with a tragic past. The concept of my character is a Palestinian Jew who was kidnapped at the age of four and was coerced into being a child soldier for a few year by a terrorist group for who I have yet to reveal (but highly relevant to the events in the story). Early on I gave the very basic, broad information that does not have too many details. The only things I mentioned at the start of the story was the main character getting a fresh start as a college student after being a child soldier and said character has a PTSD attack which reveals a small segment of what happened.

Would it be a difficult to pull off a concept like that for a main character? --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:42, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds workable if you are up for the challenge. I can see some kid standing on the pavement outside a college building with swirling mushy air of bullet-whizzing flashbacks happening around him. The hard part might be splicing the present college scenes and the past war scenes together without making it seem like weird directionless transitions. HairlessCat (talk) 12:58, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Now I was doing research on child soldier survivors and they troubles they have with reintegrating into society; this also includes difficulty building relationships.

Okay it will be a zombie apocalypse story but I have been wanting to write a zombie novel. As for my main character I have it where he denies himself any form of romantic or sexual relationships as a form of self-punishment. Now I also intend on having a love interest for my main character but has a difficult time connecting with said love interest. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 16:59, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How about a group of children that are forced to become fighters during the apocalypse? HairlessCat (talk) 20:29, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I could use that as a subplot but still make it relevant to the story. That could also be a hurdle for the main character. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 20:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Rationalzombie you really ought to actually complete something. How about a 10 page short story? I'll help peer-review it with you if you like. If you had to write a short story...what would it be about? Shabi  DOO  21:21, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I could do that. Anyways my actually story intention is to have a former child soldier face the zombie apocalypse along with working through the pain of his past and develop a romantic relationship. As for a short story I can trim it down. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 22:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You should probably have a priest character that blames the gays for the zombie virus. The virus should probably be transmitted by any means to make it more dangerous--biting, scratching, breathing, drinking, eating, sex, etc. HairlessCat (talk) 11:31, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay I created a wiki on wikidot for it. Just create an account at [] and tell me your username and I'll give you permission to start editing. You can then, if you choose, invite others to contribute their own ideas, critiques and peer-editing. Shabi  DOO  14:25, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Currently working on a short story version of my story concept. Should be done by tomorrow. I am also adding the love interest of my main character. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Feel free to put whatever material you have so far on the collaborative space. You just have to tell me your wikidot username and I'll send you an invite to join. Shabi  DOO  18:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There are any number of relevant FB groups (and probably elsewhere) which might be suitable (and also 'fanfic and general fiction' websites). Anna Livia (talk) 19:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Overly dark backstories can actually make it harder to explore the narrative difficulty your characters face in the story you're writing now. "I was forced to join a terror cell. They made me take a gun and shoot at people.  I saw kids I used to see every day in school.  I had shut my eyes, so I probably missed.  I hope." Imagine trying to give that character a moral crisis in your current story and it having any weight to them. "Can I bring myself to shoot a gun to help this girl survive" seems like an anticlimax, even if it does raise the same kind of issues they faced in the past.

I'm not saying don't do it. Tropes and cliches exist for a reason, and they really can help you structure and plan your story and characters, but wary of shooting as deep as you can for the worst suffering you can, especially if you can't match it the emotional depths in the current story. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, World!
Hi. I have been working less due to changing jobs, so I think I would like to help edit RationalWiki. I am going to spend a few days reading the guidelines and rules before I do anything.
 * Sounds good, let us know if you have any questions-Hastur! (talk) 04:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Rock and roll EGM! Shabi DOO  11:00, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Whatever you do, don't become some gadfly who only drops into the comments to make cutting remarks - there's too many of us as it is. Make real contributions. Welcome! Semipenultimate (talk) 15:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "I am going to spend a few days reading the guidelines and rules before I do anything." I am seriously impressed by your plan of action.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I found a Twitter account
This is a guy who calls himself a "Progressive Groyper", and his soul purpose is to create tension between African-Americans and Jews. I am 98.6% sure this is a 4chan troll account. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  18:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean... it's twitter? The purpose of that website is to maximize how stupid dialog can be, finding a low-follower count idiot with idiot opinions doesn't exactly reach very high on the surprise scale.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:05, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there are like tens of thousands of identical altie accounts designed to sew discord and hatred. 20:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Soul purpose? Tee hee. It is better to use the Internet to listen to, say, find and listen to some soul music. Followed by some klezmer music, perhaps?. Better for the soul than Twitter, overall. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Link for the draft of area 51 Alien interview, if you can please add to the discussion, thank you
If anyone has any spare time or would like to help debunk a piece of alleged alien footage 1997 and an end of the world predicition based on that, please discuss on the draft as any contriubution will be highly apprecaited, SoundWave already gave his 2 cents based on a skim of the video and that gave me more confidence that the piece of media in question is complete bullshit and hairlesscat said he'd have a look at some of the claims and get back to the discussion. For that, thank you soundwave and thank you hairlesscat. Also, thank you Ikanreed for advising on making a draft.

Thank you all in advance :) . Link: Draft: Area 51: Alien Interview.--WMS (talk) 19:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I moved it to Draft Space for now. So much work on it but I don't know where to start. My main skill here is Diploma Mill and Fundie School articles. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 20:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Haha, I understand, my main skill is Illuminati stuff because it's easy, as soon as an "end of the world prediction" is thrown in I'm completely stumped (thank you anxiety...) I just wish I had more of a better understanding how to debunk the video and its allegations and to not buy into to "the end time is upon us" bullshit. I spent 12+ hours gathering research, analysing and trying to make sense of it. Honestly, I wish I had spent that time on my assignments, but when I finally manage to get over that tripe, it will be all worth it for peace of mind.-- WMS (talk) 21:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also thank you for moving it to the draft space mate [[File:Smiley.gif]]--WMS (talk) 21:04, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm attempting a subjective production value take in the talk-space. It's killing me to do it in minutia, because it is really obvious that this is a professional production with tv doc budget in 1997.  This is the beginning of the content that kills the History Channel, this is the production for high yield viewership, I like your production cards, I'm also willing to work on that EMS again, but this, this is the shit I mean, the better it's done, the less it's obvious it's entertainment. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:51, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

lol
https://old.reddit.com/r/MoreTankieChapo/comments/h9kpo1/apparently_were_a_cult_now/ &mdash; Unsigned, by: 65.92.96.240 / talk
 * I do wish Reddit would send its best, not its pre-teens. 01:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Larry Lawton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkR5CiRZ1-A This guy is very cool. HairlessCat (talk) 21:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Japanophobia
Is there some sort of racist alt-righter on the internet who hates Japanese people? If his following's large enough, we could make a page. Let me know about anyone. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  23:07, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not that I know of. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:02, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want historical figures, there's, the racist nativist politician who spearheaded the . Actually there's a fair number of early 20th century west coast politicians that were quite anti-Japanese (along with other Asian immigrant minorities). Can't think of, or Google, any modern Western alt-right type that are anti-Japanese at the moment though. (China and Korea don't like Japan very much from what I understand so I bet there's plenty on that side.) Soundwave106 (talk) 01:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Every East Asian extremist (other than Japanese, obviously), left or right, absolutely despises the Japanese. Turns out that running an extermination campaign of non-Japanese and forcing millions of women into sexual slavery does not get you elected prom queen. CoryUsar (talk) 05:15, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Have you heard of the racist WWII propaganda in Australia centring around the threat of Japanese invasion (the "Yellow Peril")? Maybe not so topical, but it's the same mindset, and there are definitely people who still think along the same lines now. Maybe the buzzword would be helpful?

Going to say that the Earth is a cylinder and see how many people believe me
Might be fun. Toss in ramblings of a government conspiracy and some Bible verses so it should work. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Makes slightly more sense than the Earth being flat. Of course you still have to explain why the Earth's spacefaring governments are all conspiring to hide the truth-Hastur! (talk) 00:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, no. Not nearly innovative enough.  See, the governments don't know either. They think they've gone up to space, but that's exactly what the extradimensional wallabies from the Teapot Constellation-- specifically, the seventeenth planet of the star Zeta Sagittarii (Also known as Ascella, or "the armpit") want them to think.  Their true purpose is to eventually shut down all attempts at space travel, due to the apparently flat earth being a globe at the same time, thus causing every astrophysicist on the plneat to have one giant communal lie-down (Oh, the headaches!) thus allowing the Illuminati to sell second hand pencil sharpeners to the Jews.  This will somehow let them either become immortal or corner the global market in kotatsu (Those tables with a blanket you see in anime).  Why?  Who the fuck knows, they're goddam aliens, you think they're going to make sense by human standards? Kencolt (talk) 11:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So, that would be hollow cylinder I guess? (That being the nature of cylinders.) Would people be living on the inside or the outside?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There are people who unironically believe the earth is both hollow and flat, so, you know, convincing some gullible rubes of that ain't as hard as you think. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  09:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Earth is a hollow cylinder because it’s actually the inside of God’s asshole. 17:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I thought it was in his urethra. Shabi  DOO  17:26, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it would be more accurate to describe it as banana shaped. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, there's you and Anaximander. I hope you didn't think you were the first. Ariel31459 (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It incorporates a cylinder, but the whole is something greater. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 17:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Corona Song
Soothing Madhguru Corona Tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wN8ImWtMMs&t=0s HairlessCat (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Smart cat compilation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFrlWH7UnDw — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I noticed this about people with Profound and Multiple Learning Disabilities (PMLD)
Many seem to have their arms bent inwards and cannot seem to unbend them. Is that a common thing among people with PMLD? Just curious. I am not a doctor nor have I had extended interaction with people with PMLD --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 23:26, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume it's harder for them to move, and it may be harder to unbend the arm than bend it--hence the stuckness. HairlessCat (talk) 23:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In my experience, it is a lot more common than in the normal population. And it can complicate a surprising number of things, even beyond what you might think. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 23:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Economic impact of COVID-19: how much worse will it get
The US economy is currently taking a hit and we now have one of the largest unemployment crisis's in history. We are also not finished with the pandemic which means more trouble ahead considering the bad leadership here in the US. I cannot speak for other countries. I can assume that the economic situation caused by COVID-19 is pretty bad. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:20, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's very simple; the public will not support a second shutdown, so there won't be one. People will get sick, some will die, and then this pandemic is OVER.
 * Had everyone not shut down in the first place, the only significant economic impact would've been from export/import issues from countries that DID shut down. Turns out, people are replaceable, and sick old people aren't even the backbone of the economy to begin with.  Now, from an ethical standpoint, that's different from an economic one.  However, you have to factor in that the borrowing has to be paid back at some point, and that taxing poor and middle class people does have an actual impact on life expectancies...CoryUsar (talk) 05:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was really hoping for a real estate crash but it looks like I'll have to wait a few years longer before buying a home. Prices haven't dropped-Hastur! (talk) 05:13, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Has to be paid back at some point" is the wrong way to think about public debt. It isn't a mortgage. Look up real Treasury yields; currently people are literally paying the U.S. government to take their money. I really need to get around to creating household analogy one of these days. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 09:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Technically true, but de facto false. The US debt is measured in dollars, and the US could simply print away the debt, something that households can't.  However, printing away the debt is still making the public "pay" for the debt, as anyone with savings, pensions, 401Ks, or plain ol' SOcial Security will find that they have less purchasing power as a result.  Ultimately, it isn't about how much money a person has, but what they can buy with it. CoryUsar (talk) 20:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Removing Statues
Since we consistently talk about removing statues of confederates and conquistadores (disclaimer: I support removing those statues and move them to museums or, if they were just erected for the sake of opposing the civil rights movement in the 60s, completely destroying them), what about the rare but still existing statues of communist dictators like Lenin? (To be fair, this one seems to be on private property, but then the debate extends about whether displaying those clearly provocative statues in private property should be allowed.) Opinions? 00:16, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You should obviously be able to have any image on your own property, except for far-out exceptions like child pornography. As for publicly owned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-abUtRbUS_U Or destroy them. Or just let people spray paint them and turn them into new works of art through graffiti and vandalism, like those oriental vases where the cracks are considered to be part of the history and art. HairlessCat (talk) 00:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The answer is to not remove the statues but remove the pedestals. Carve out a pit and place the statues so they only stick-out half way. That way you can look down on them as a sad part of history instead of venerating them. Shabi  DOO  01:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Put a little plaque that explains what used to be there. Failing that, just replace every Confederate statue with one of General Sherman to help the South remember the price of racist treason. 02:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Or put a Keynes statue there, to demonstrate that marxism was really wrong. 14:30, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How is Marxism by default "wrong"? Marxism-Leninism, sure, but Marxian economics still hold a significant following, including amongst economists, to this very day. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that using Keynes as an illustration of Marxism would be effin’ stupid, because, you know, he wasn’t a Marxist... ScepticWombat (talk) 17:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

You missed the point. 17:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Which was...? ScepticWombat (talk) 17:30, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "just replace every Confederate statue with one of General Sherman to help the South remember the price of racist treason." (Duce's comment); General Sherman was part of the Union that opposed the Confederacy; as a similar juxtaposition, Marx (the confederate in the analogy) would be replaced by Keynes (the unionist in the analogy). 17:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That is a ludicrous analogy Raven. Shabi  DOO  17:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that this statue and this one should be good targets.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What would this 'gentleman' have said in response to the latter suggestion? Anna Livia (talk)
 * Holy shit, that Genghis Khan statue looks fucking awesome. 19:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, no one is going to be throwing it into a lake anytime soon.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

In Canada, there have been several attempts to remove the first Canadian prime minister Sir John A. MacDonald statues from public display on the account of his policies towards indigenous peoples such as residential schools.Cms13ca (talk) 19:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Does NASA mean to deceive in Hebrew?
It was mentioned in family guy as a joke but a little googling showed me that it's an actual thing people are hung up about. Seems like nonsense really but I wanna know if anyone can confirm it doesn't.Machina (talk) 06:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's just another antisemitic conspiracy theory but if you have any credible sources we could add it to the NASA page.Tuxer (talk) 07:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I would read this before taking the "NASA means to deceive" thing seriously: How likely are chance resemblances between languages? Neo Stalinist (talk) 08:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Worse, in Chinese, 那撒 means "that spread" referring to the lies they spread! No, really, dubious transliteration into dubious translation is fuckin dumb.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh my God! It's true. That coincidence must mean that NASA it evil and the world really is flat!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A quick search seems to reveal that נָשָׁא (pronounced like NASA) actually means "to lift" (both literal and figuratively) or "to bear, to carry". There *is* a verb version of this that is that means "to lead astray", but the pronunciation of this is "nasha". Even if it wasn't the case, there are language coincidences all the time, I imagine. The phrase "dalek" means "distant" in Serbo-Croat, but Terry Nations didn't know that when he developed the He just reportedly liked how it sounded. Soundwave106 (talk) 20:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In Spanish a "nasa" is a type of fishing trap of roughly conical shape. See here. Funnier still is how "NADA", the name of North Korea's space agency, means in Spanish "nothing". 83.37.158.187 (talk) 21:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)