Talk:Alt-right

A matter of definition
The introduction to this article does not contain a single reference. I have understood the term to primarily designate any recently formed group calling for, or supporting white supremacy. There is a variety of opinion: The Southern Poverty Law Center defines it as,

"The Alternative Right, commonly known as the Alt-Right, is a set of far-right ideologies, groups and individuals whose core belief is that “white identity” is under attack by multicultural forces using “political correctness” and “social justice” to undermine white people and “their” civilization. Characterized by heavy use of social media and online memes, Alt-Righters eschew “establishment” conservatism, skew young, and embrace white ethno-nationalism as a fundamental value."

By this definition I take it that the modern academic formulations of social justice concepts led to a series of reactions known as the alt-right, even as the American Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s led to the reformation of the Republican Party into a virtually all-white party.

More succinctly Wikipedia defines alt-right as: "The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism."

This introduction needs more references. This definition appears a little too customized.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:51, 16 December 2017 (UTC)


 * We really don't need to cite stuff that's already cited elsewhere in the article - David Gerard (talk) 12:26, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. How about the fact that "Alt-right" is actually a buzz-word for a bunch of actual events and media artifacts that are only connected by varieties of white-nationalism?Ariel31459 (talk) 14:41, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Individuals and groups claim to be alt-right, regardless of the media's general incapability, you politically illiterate ignoramus. It is an actual thing. Jesus Christ, are you serious with this shit? 72.181.99.6 (talk) 22:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. The question is: are you serious? Evidently not.Ariel31459 (talk) 15:20, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Trying to Add Content But It Won't Let Me
I've been trying to edit the section "Men are Under Attack" by adding a quote from a book that I think summarizes the alt-rights views on women and feminism quite well. However, every time I try to add it, the website won't let me, saying that it's "harmful" and "spam", even though it really isn't. I'm just inserting a quite from a book that just sums up the alt-right's beliefs but does not condone or endorse them in any way. Could someone please tell me how to add the content? NotYourAverageBoN (talk) 16:51, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Avalon (and car)
The article states that the name Avalon was taken from the name of the Toyota Avalon. This is almost certainly false - Avalon is a location of Arthurian mythology. Somebody else happening to use the name for something else is irrelevant. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 216.56.24.131 / talk
 * I think it's supposed to be a joke. --Gospatric (talk) 14:56, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * i thought so but then i looked and its really not. the whole section is a nonsensical mess. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ive removed the suggestion as joke or not it was painfully unfunny. i also removed what followed as it was similarly made of shite. please people, do not try to shoehorn crap jokes in everywhere at the expense of a cogent argument - we look like fucking idiots. 'snarky point of view' (i cringe everytime i see that mentioned) does not mean shitty jokes. The stuff i removed was in the white nation section which now looks a little light, if anybody who knows about this stuff wants add anything useful. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:16, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

reply
ok I noticed your removal of environmentalism category and reaction with WTF, here are cites for alt-right ecofascism info, though category for that doesn't exist so i put in category environmentalism hopefully this clears things up Low computer battery (talk) 02:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Category:Anti-Korean
Users who remove this category should read the article first. Moreover, the Japanese far right has exchanges with the American far right, and in fact, the alt-rights support Japan's anti-Korean racism because they praise it as an ideal country. And many manga writers supported alt-right. In contrast, BTS supported BLM. Umaru16 (talk) 02:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Above all, the alt-right movement is a far-right movement that takes place throughout the First World, not just in American politics. In Japan, politicians and celebrities who deny war crimes in the past and show anti-Korean racism are referred to as "alt-right." But why should the 'Category:anti-Korean' be removed? Umaru16 (talk)
 * Especially, because South Korea's anti-Japanese sentiment is expressed by liberal anti-imperialists, hate crimes that inflict physical violence are not common, even if there are many hate speech against the Japanese. But anti-Korean in Japan has no historical justification at all, and is closely linked to past far-right movements to justify imperialism and fascism. As stated in the article Japan, hate crimes often occur in Japan accompanied by physical violence against Koreans. There are a lot of anti-Korean far-right groups in Japan. And the Japanese also call them "alt-right". In addition, the alt-right of the United States and the alt-right of Japan are friendly to each other. Umaru16 (talk) 03:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Alt right is the “patriotically” correct term for white nationalism. That’s it.There’s nothing else to it.--Jakester499 (talk) (contributions) 02:03, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No. There is also an Alt-right in East Asia. Alt-right has numerous other factors such as misogyny and right-wing populism. Alt-right in Japan is mainly related to anti-Korean racism, and Alt-right in South Korea is mainly related to anti-feminist incel culture. See Umaru16 (talk) 02:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Personally, I still think there is a difference between "alt-right" and similar non-US movements. But if all online nationalist movements with a meme / Internet culture that shares some similarity to the chan culture of the alt-right shall be included, we would ideally need to include as many as possible. This also would include India (eg, as described with the RW page for the India "alt-right" glossary, the "trads", a group which believes that Narendra Modi is not nationalist enough), Islam (maybe... when Andrew Tate popped up, a few articles mentioned an "akh-right" subculture that grew around Tate's purported Muslim masocism. RW doesn't have anything on it, but I am not seeing enough articles to know if it's actually truly a prominent movement or if it's just a couple of dumbass Tatebro influencers on Twitter), and the European "flavors" of the "alt-right" that don't quite fit in with 4chan, Richard Spencer, and the like.
 * I guess one problem I have combining these subcultures is that they seem pretty distinct. EG: If one pops on a netto-uyoku board with a Pepe meme, would anyone notice? The Indian glossary as well as the RW non-Anglophone glossary only suggests tangential connection, and even among different Western countries the overall culture and "memes" seems quite different even if the broad motivation (masochistic nationalism) is the same.
 * However... generally, sources are all over the map though on whether "alt-right" is a US specific term or an umbrella term . So I guess there is no real consensus on this yet.
 * (Note: I do like the idea of having terminology references to different online cultures of this style (regardless of the term), so props to those that created these articles). BobJohnson (talk) 18:30, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree Edward the eight (talk) 10:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Good pointJakester499 (talk) (contributions) 02:11, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * South Korean wiki deals very closely with the pro-Japanese version of alt-right and the attack on Korea, so should I bring a link? Umaru16 (talk) 21:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you know why Western media doesn't mention the friendly connection between alt-right and the Japanese right? This is because it is a matter of political, economic, and military interests in the West. Negotiations on Japanese Military Sexual Slavery in 2015 were led by conservatives, with most South Koreans angry at the unwanted agreement with the victims and well aware that it was made under U.S. political pressure. Umaru16 (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It benefits the U.S. and European countries by forcing Japan to rearm, ignore the de-colonialist agenda of the South Korean left, and force the relationship between the two countries to keep China in check. This is because China and Russia are the biggest threats to the United States and European countries. But for South Koreans, Japanese conservatives are a bigger threat. Japanese liberals oppose Japan's strengthening of its military power and having a formal army. But American liberals and American conservatives, including Joe Biden, likewise want Japan to move away from US military protection and have plenty of its own. (This is because for the United States, keeping China and Russia in check is more important than all other agendas.) That's why even if American alt-rights attack South Korean and Japanese liberals and leftists, American and European media do not report well. (United States demands that Japan have a formal army and a stronger military power, which is also a long-cherished dream of the Japanese right-wing to far-right.) Umaru16 (talk) 22:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you know why Western media doesn't mention the friendly connection between alt-right and the Japanese right? This is because it is a matter of political, economic, and military interests in the West. Negotiations on Japanese Military Sexual Slavery in 2015 were led by conservatives, with most South Koreans angry at the unwanted agreement with the victims and well aware that it was made under U.S. political pressure. Umaru16 (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * There's already an article on netto-uyoku (both RW and even Wikipedia seem lacking on named Korean far-right movements though, though I didn't search too much). The issue I see is here is that these are "related" but also "not related", with (in Japan's case) chan culture mainly being the two things tying them together, as well as the general grievance being the same (misogyny, racism, nationalism / militarism, "good old days", etc.). The details are different, though, because Korea / Japan is not America and vice versa. As one example, Japan nationalism is going to focus on Japan far-right things like pro-Imperial Japan / emperor, anti-US sentiment (in some versions), WWII whitewashing, and certain racism that is not present in the American alt-right (eg anti-Korean sentiment). Terms already exist for the general lump of politics this falls under ("nationalism", "fascism", "imperialism", etc.) So I kind of prefer what the, which focuses "alt-right" as a specific movement relating to Richard Spencer, Breitbart / Steve Bannon, and 4chan, and provide links and articles to any related movements. That's just my opinion, though. If there are more specific ties that relate actual US alt-right personalities to Japan / Korean ones (other than the 2ch / 4chan connection which I know), I'd love to hear it.
 * Incidentally, American media in general covers international horribly for *everything*. However, occasionally a few places have touched on the links between American online alt-right and related, and elsewhere (see this CNN article on "Japan's QAnon") BobJohnson (talk) 22:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Japan's alt-rights do not have anti-Western or anti-American sentiment in a diplomatic sense. They are only hostile to all immigrants. But they are diplomatically hostile to South Korea. The famous Japanese anime writer also supported QAnon. # And I don't think Western media can be objective in all matters. We need to see their articles because not only Western media but also the South Korean all media and Japanese liberal media are 'free speech from authoritarian' media. South Korea and Japan, like countries like the United States, Germany, and France, have complete liberal democracy. Umaru16 (talk) 22:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * # Namuwiki, a Korean-language wiki, explains the relationship between Western alt-rights and Japan well. However, since it is Korean, you will need a translator. Umaru16 (talk) 23:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * One thing is for sure, from a pure national interest point of view, the Japanese right-wing supporting Japan's military arm serves the American national interest rather than the Japanese left-wing who opposes it. The United States wants Japan to become militarily strong and effectively check China and Russia. This is also why American left-liberal politicians have long favored right-wing politics in Latin American diplomacy. Mainstream American left-liberal politicians in the United States (except progressives) behave like social democrats when it comes to internal affairs, but not at all when it comes to diplomacy. American left-liberals become conservatives in diplomacy. Umaru16 (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree that there should be a Anti-korean category in Alt-right however I won't also remove it Edward the eight (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * My bad, I took it off in the first place because I thought that the category was too specific, and was already covered in the category of racism. But the article doesn't say that alt-right is global, it only focuses on America. So saying that the category of anti-korean shouldn't be removed because the alt-right is widespread worldwide seems misleading because this article doesn't bring up any countries other than America.Rational Dude (talk) 02:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think the label "anti-Korean" is inappropriate even for alt-rights in the United States. The alt-rights in the United States are positive for Japanese conservatives, who are friendly to Japanese right-wing historical views, policies, and the anti-Korean sentiment that emerges there. And the article also mentions Japanese alt-rights a little bit. Umaru16 (talk) 21:36, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't exactly agree, since the category seems kinda redundant and specific because it's already covered in the category of racism, and the alt-right also exists in Korea, but I understand your decision. Rational Dude (talk) 21:03, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * South Korea's alt-rights have less anti-Japanese sentiment than the average South Korean. Rather, anti-Japanese sentiment is more pronounced on the liberals. (South Korean politics is very complicated, diplomatically pro-North Korea is considered far-left and pro-Japanese is considered far-right. The reason is that South Korea was colonized by Japan in the past, and conservatives followed them, but resistance movements were largely led by liberals and socialists. And 5 years after South Korea was liberated from the Japanese Empire, there is the Korean War) South Korea's alt-rights focus more on anti-feminism, rather they oppose South Korean liberals' diplomatic friction with Japan for anti-communist reasons. And what's really interesting is that the more socially far-right politicians in South Korea, the more friendly they are to Japan. South Korean liberals call alt-rights "Japanese" or even "Japs". The reason why South Korean liberals call them Japs is because some alt-rights in the South advocate Japanese colonial rule. The alt-rights of South Korea are friendly to Japan and the United States and are strongly opposed to China. South Korean liberals are also basically critical of China and support pro-American diplomatic lines, but because they are engaged in historical/cultural wars between the Japanese right-wing and the former colonial victim compensation issue. (Of course, I oppose hate speech about the Japanese apart from historical and cultural conflicts, but hate speech about the Japanese sadly appears more in liberals.)
 * You maybe rightJakester499 (talk) (contributions) 02:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Therefore, even if there are alt-rights in South Korea, the category "anti-Korea" is not inappropriate. We do not remove the "Islamophobia" category in the alt-right article, just because there are Muslim alt-rights. (South Korean conservatives, including alt-rights, are strong anti-communists and oppose excessive conflict with Japan because it leads to diplomatic friction with the United States.) Umaru16 (talk) 07:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright then, but I was pretty confused at first. There are a lot of races and ethnicities the alt-right hates (Mexicans, black people, Turkish people, etc.), so I assumed it was redundant to list it (and I still kind of think it is to a degree). But I have read articles showing South Korea's alt-right movement rising among the mainstream. Rational Dude (talk) 03:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * According to articles related to the alt-right movements in South Korea, there is nothing related to anti-Japanese sentiment, but rather, they view Japan as friendly as having conservative culture and politics. South Korea's far right has a colonial consciousness in Japan, but it is hostile to its internal minorities. So I think alt-right in South Korea is more like Muslim alt-right or female alt-right. One of the images that comes to mind when you think of the alt-right in South Korea is pro-Japan. (Anti-Japan sentiment in South Korea is rather more pronounced among liberals. This has to do with post-colonialism.) Umaru16 (talk) 23:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not really, there were (and still are) some anti-Japanese parties in Korea. Rational Dude (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No, anti-Japanese racism in South Korea has little to do with alt-right. Liberals and feminists are anti-Japanese in South Korea. Racist comments about Japan are frankly more often seen by than by South Korean fascists., a South Korean alt-right political party, is a pro-Japanese political party. The current president of South Korea, , is also known as K-Trumpism, and he is also pro-Japan. Just as American far-rights are supported by Russia, South Korean far-rights are supported by Japan.  in South Korea is more similar to black ultra-nationalism than alt-right. Umaru16 (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * America's far right is linked to Russia. Likewise, the far right in South Korea is linked to Japan. (I just explained this on your Talk page, so please check it out.) Umaru16 (talk) 00:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)