RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive396

Joe Manchin Has Put Biden’s Presidency in Mortal Danger
Joe Manchin Has Put Biden’s Presidency in Mortal Danger, New York Magazine

Joe Manchin upends Democrats' push to enact Biden's agenda this month, calling for 'pause' on $3.5 trillion bill. Erno (talk) 05:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Ken. 14:43, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Jeff Bozo (I know that it is Bezos) suing Elon Musk is just too funny.
Blue Origin is a joke that only sends a single billionaire into space for fun while SpaceX has had ambition and contributed to scientific research. Why would NASA want to sign a contract with Jeff Bozo who had no true results? Jeff Bozo is the crybaby who did not get a spot on the basketball team. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 15:23, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * they both proved the same thing with their space ventures - money talks. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

4 ESSENTIAL WAYS TO STORE YOUR GOLD
For all you men and women who need advice on storing your gold (or other precious metals). &mdash; Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:DDB1:C600:A87E:5812:DB78:EE2C / talk
 * Wow. Talk about misreading your audience. Kencolt (talk) 09:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't forget, we have an absolutely massively successful expert here who has smashed the gold market and has near divine money making abilities Shabi  DOO  15:42, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * My takeaway is the gold shills have run out of money for sham advertisements on Fox News, and have to resort to the advertising route occupied by shady spammy "penis enlargement pill" enterprises. Tsk tsk. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 16:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Melt your spare/scrap gold/silver into 'a block', cover it in spare house paint of choice and use it as an internal doorstop can be a safe way of storage (so I have been told). Anna Livia (talk) 09:18, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think using gold in electronic (gold is a good conductor of electricity) is a much better use of gold then letting it just stand there in your basement. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:03, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Joe Rogan has Covid
Oh the irony. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/joe-rogan-podcasting-giant-dismissive-of-vaccination-contracts-covid-1.4663058 Cardinal Chang (talk) 10:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The title of the article is misleading - Joe is not dismissive of the vaccine, he opposes its use for children. The author even notes that on the article. I'm sorry, but this reads like a hit piece. Senioritas (talk) 11:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * the article makes no mention of opposing its use for children. it does mention the flak he received from the us and government for undermining the value of vaccination by suggesting young people dont need the vaccine. it seems a fair headline and article to me.


 * it also says hes got a load of ivermectin along side other stuff that is actually recommended. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:43, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Most of what was reported that he rattled off, like prednisone (sometimes used for severely ill COVID patients to battle inflammatory responses, but not terribly useful in other stages as it tends to depress the immune system) and a "Z-Pak" (aka azithromycin, an antibiotic that is used to treat bacterial infections. Not viruses at this time. There's some preprint / in-vitro stuff on treating COVID, but, like ivermectin, that counts for little) was, given the information we have at this time, bullshit. Monoclonal antibodies is the only treatment he rattled off that actually is approved and is known to work. Rogan being broscience-y and popping everything he could think of (without bothering to do simple Google searches) kind of fits though. I bet Rogan is well known at his local store. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 18:11, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * are there actually doctors in the us who prescribe a suitable medicine that a patient then takes as directed? feel like if i were paying for health insurance, and i assume joe rogan can afford and ha decent insurance, that having access to a dr and getting whatever the dr ordered is the whole point of health insurance. why pay your subs if you just gonna see what people are saying on facebook? AMassiveGay (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is. I don't know how he is getting these drugs, to be honest.
 * There are unscrupulous doctors out there, of course, that will prescribe anything to anyone. Famously, was a "doctor feelgood" that gave Elvis Presley anything he wanted, which ended up killing Elvis. Also known in a broad sense, the  was fueled by "pill mills" that would give prescriptions for opioids to anyone, pretty much no questions asked.
 * However, I have personally found though that even relatively scrupulous doctors here tend to over-prescribe. Not sure if this is common in the UK, but it is here. You go in, for instance, with a bad sore throat that's lasting a long time and just want to check it's not strep. The doctor examines you and says nope, not strep, just a viral infection. And then prescribes a f'n antibiotic anyways, which anyone with a small amount of knowledge knows won't work for viral infections. According to the Journal of American Medical Association, 30 percent of antibiotics prescribed here are unnecessary. It's annoying. So my guess is it's probably one of those things, maybe Rogan went into his doc babbling about things and the doc sympathetically wrote a bunch of bullshit scrips just to please the patient. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:43, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

"Doctors is all swabs." - Long John Silver, Treasure Island by Robert Louise Stevenson. Miseme (talk) 02:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * It gets a tad bizarre. When did he contract it, did he stay quiet about it for a few days before announcing to his acolytes. Or could it simply be a case of he never had it but is claiming to be no longer infected, 3 days later https://deadline.com/2021/09/joe-rogan-covid-test-dave-chappelle-tour-vaccinations-1234825866/ Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:33, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Are Covid boosters needed?
There seems controversy. On one and it seems the Biden administration plans to have some this month. On the other hand, there are scientists who feel it is not nessarry that the vaccine already protects well and that the doses should be saved for people like those in countries that have trouble accessing vaccines.


 * Signature please. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 22:35, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Fauci: 'Dramatic Data' From Israel Support COVID-19 Boosters.


 * "Come with me if you want to live. That Covid-19 virus is out there. It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with. It doesn't feel pity of remorse or fear and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead." - Anthony Fauci, Terminator 7 Miseme (talk) 08:06, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is scientific, political (and even moral) debate about this question. This is the first time we have lived through something like this with the resources we have, so such debate is far from surprising. In fact, it's to be expected and is welcome.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * if the science says a booster is needed, then a booster is needed. not much more to it than that imho. there is no debate beyond that.


 * the question of saving doses for countries who cant get hold of the vaccine is answered by by what the science says - if its needed then those countries who can buy/make or already have it will keep it for themselves. think yourself lucky if you live in the developed world. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Nothing at all is necessary per se. Needs depend on wants, that is, the goals to be achieved. COVID vaccine boosters have certain consequences, and if those consequences are needed to achieve the chosen goals, then sure. Semantics aside, I expect your intention was to ask if vaccine boosters are necessary to end the pandemic or something along those lines. The short version is that the current vaccines are nowhere near effective enough to do that on their own, though it is conceivable that they would be able to help other methods. However, they may actually be counterproductive at this point due to leakiness and the selective pressure that produces.


 * The long version has to do with the particulars of coronaviruses and their interaction with the human immune system. Coronaviruses in general don't produce a strong, long-lasting immunity like certain other families of viruses do, which is one reason why people can catch the same cold-causing coronavirus multiple times. The other reason is that they mutate rather quickly, particularly when they have a large population in which they are endemic. It looks like vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2 is largely gone at around 6-ish months after "full" vaccination, but that boosters can restore this. The number-frequency of boosters required to maintain immunity is an area of ongoing research, but it looks like ongoing boosters every several months is likely. That said, boosters only produce an immune response to strains with matching antigens. That is, they don't offer improved performance against vaccine-resistant strains vs the initial vaccination. With vaccine-resistant strains like Delta being prominent now and likely to become more so due to the selective pressures of vaccinated populations, this means that the protection offered by the current vaccines declines over time even with boosters keeping up their immune response. With the Delta strain, it's at the point where it can spread uncontrollably in 100% vaccinated populations, and there are more-resistant strains out there already.


 * With ordinary vaccines, this would just return things to the state of affairs of an unvaccinated population, but a major problem with the COVID-19 vaccines is that they are leaky, particularly against the vaccine-resistant strains. That is, they reduce the severity of symptoms while allowing infection and transmission among vaccinated people. Normally, pandemic diseases (e.g. Spanish flu) become less virulent over time due to selective pressures - people with severe symptoms have less social contact and are therefore less likely to infect others. A leaky vaccine changes this, with the selection being for increased viral load and shedding (generally an indicator of virulence). With leaky vaccines preventing or reducing symptoms that would hinder the spread of virulent strains, diseases are incentivized to become more virulent over time rather than less. With widespread use of a leaky but otherwise effective vaccine, this produces something like Marek's disease if given enough time. However, it looks like the current COVID-19 vaccines aren't effective enough to shift the selective pressure away from reduced virulence. Widespread use of leaky vaccines would presumably lower the selective pressure for reduced virulence, and extend the duration of dangerous strains in the population vs the situation without vaccines.


 * There will presumably be new vaccines developed to address the currently-vaccine-resistant strains, but unless they are extremely effective at producing sterilizing immunity, widespread use will just produce another round of vaccine-resistant strains. If the new vaccines are leaky, they could still be used to some benefit, though. Restricting them to small numbers of high-risk people like the elderly and those with high-risk preconditions would go a long way to reducing fatalities while minimally changing the overall selective pressures faced by the virus. Ending the pandemic medically is not currently an available option, though every person in the world wearing an N95 or better mask (properly) would probably do it. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I feel like the OP is trolling to a degree, but fleshing out the question in a more interesting way: Is it morally acceptable for the West to give booster shots, when it is still in such demand in Africa, Latin America and South Asia? I will get a booster if it's recommended, but I feel like we're not doing enough to vaccinate the world.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

What do I do now?
I posted a new essay here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:The_Venus_Project

Now do I just wait for folks to read it and comment on it? Sorry I'm still kinda new here. Thanks. Hansen128 (talk)
 * Since there's already a mainspace page on The Venus Project, it might be more productive for you to see if there are things that are missional in your essay that can be added to the mainspace page. Essayspace doesn't often get much traction. Bongolian (talk) 03:41, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not bad at all for your first essay here. Though you might want to give a very brief one or two second Intro to the Venus project before starting (having read your essay myself and not knowing anything about the Venus project I felt a little confused until I got to the actual Venus project section. You might also want to trim his life experience section a little. Bongolian is right in that if you can improve the actual article it would be swellerific. While it's great that you wrote an essay please don't be shocked if you get minimal response. Some people may read it and simply not have anything to say about it... And some essays get very few readers. Shabi DOO  17:28, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The thing is, if you really want engagement with an essay it's best to write something which challenges people's views in some way, or which takes an entirely different angle on a well-known issue. (Even then, engagement is far from certain.) If you want to promote general knowledge in the skeptical (or the on-line) community then create, or add to, an article.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @ShabiDOO Added an intro to the essay.
 * As a new member I didn't want to go and start changing articles without first making sure I was headed in the right direction. I feel like the original author did a pretty good job giving an overview of The Venus Project but then got lost on "how decisions are made" and just assumed that the project was hogwash. At least that's my take. It might be hard to make corrections without re-writing a whole section or more. I'd rather use a surgical knife to make corrections than a maul but I guess for some jobs a maul is more appropriate. I'll see what I can do. Thanks for the feedback. Hansen128 (talk)
 * In point of fact there is no "original author" on wiki pages. If you click the "fossil record" tab on the article you will be able to see the authors who have contributed to it.  If you want to make substantial changes to an article or change the tone or focus it is best to state what you intend to to on the talk page first.  If nobody objects in a couple of days then go ahead.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:43, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Dealing with IPv6
Community Standards thing. Please read and vote. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's about the future of range blocks due to shifts in IP address standards. As Techpriest described, the current de facto policy is unlikely to work in future. Bongolian (talk) 19:23, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Flat Earth Cosmology: Firmament
We all know the the Earth being in a dome made out of Firmament is a load of shit but anyways, I will state this:

Why doesn't a Flat Earther get in a hot air balloon, fly up to the supposed dome, take samples, analyze them, do scientific research and publish a scientific paper? If the Earth were flat and surrounded by a dome, it would be easy to prove.

I know that I am preaching to the choir but I have to get this thought out. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The idea is that the firmament is at the upper reaches of the atmosphere, near the commonly-accepted altitude where "space" begins. Too high for balloons to reach, and amateur rockets that can go that high are rare and expensive. The idea is that the Conspiracy has a relatively easy time controlling the small number of groups able to do it, and that the flight plans are not as published, or they impact the dome and are destroyed before reaching space. There are supposedly chunks of glass that have been knocked off the firmament by such impacts. It's a relatively minor point compared to things like stars having two centers of rotation. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think most FE folk would just tell you there is some conspiracy re: hot air balloon manufacturers/pilots. Probliknaut (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Or better yet - go into the International Space Station and see the round Earth! (Though I doubt NASA would appoint them). Andrew5 (talk) 23:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The ISS is in low orbit, so the visual difference between a round and a flat Earth is relatively small at its altitude, particularly over a human's limited field of vision. A keen observer could probably see that something is up, but showing a clear difference would take an instrument like a theodolite. The images taken from low orbit showing a "round" Earth were made using a wide-angle lens, and due to the geometric distortion required for mapping a wide-angle view to a 2D surface for display, such images would show a round-looking Earth even if it were in fact flat. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 23:50, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Guys don't you get it, space itself is PART OF THE CONSPIRACY!!! WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!! BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Speaking as someone who does have a fairly significant wide angle lens for my DSLR, that's some nice high-grade bullshit there. :)
 * I tend to not be in social circles where flat earthers period, let alone firmament flat earthers, don't really exist. A quick glance at Youtube seems to suggest pro-firmament videos coincides with exactly the sort of videos you'd expect from a bunch of crapola constructed in Genesis, with references to God, End Times, ancient aliens, and other sort of shit that is basically a whine that they don't like change or uncertainty. The more popular Youtube videos are those that make fun of them. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is a wide-angle photo of a city. How do you think the horizon would appear to a human in the spot the picture was taken from? 96.60.168.60 (talk) 00:58, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you are actually srs (!), the answer is: A) most wide angle lenses are *not* fisheye style, B) for fisheye, anything on the bottom half of the photo would curve "the wrong way" for a flat horizon to look like a globe; C) the Wiki article "" would make any Nikon fanboy envious, and it's pretty clear they have a wide variety of gear, including many lenses. From kinda standard (24-70mm) pro stuff, to a massive $17K 800mm tele. Clearly they are not stuck in space with just a single fisheye lens. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 01:22, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Please read what I have actually written. You seem to be arguing against something that you imagine I meant instead. Perhaps due to an impression that, because the "flat Earth" conclusion is wrong, all the arguments made by supporters of that conclusion must also be wrong. Andrew5 commented above that the curvature of the Earth could be seen from the ISS, presumably from having seen photos taken from the ISS. What sort of lens do you think was used to produce such photos? With a 25mm focal length, the curvature isn't very strong. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 01:49, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * A wide variety, actually, judging from this set of pictures I found. Earth's curvature is pretty visible on a few 50mm shots (aka "standard" lens, not a wide angle lens) in this set. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 02:04, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a reason I chose a photo with 25mm focal length that looks out through a window, with the horizon centered. Again, please read what I've actually written. Do you think that the view through the ISS window shows a strong enough curvature to convince someone whose world view requires them to not see it? 96.60.168.60 (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I find it funny that Flat Earthers have never once mentioned as to what the Firmament is made of. --00:27, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I will hereby call it Substance X BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:43, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Easily confused with Chemical X, thus the great Cartoon Network/Flat Earth conspiracy. Probliknaut (talk) 13:55, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The real conspiracy is hiding that Chemical X is Aku. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

A pair of studies by Ditto et al. and Washburn and Skitka have found that conservatives and liberals are about equally likely to deny scientific conclusions that conflict with their political views.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1745691617746796 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550617731500

BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Shocking results suggest that most conservatives and liberals are human!" 96.60.168.60 (talk) 23:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You linked to the same study twice. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒  talk  23:57, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Whoops. Thanks BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * People are failiable. For example: Anti-Vaxxers. You can find them on all sides of the political spectrum. You got left wing hippies who think vaccines are part of the overreaching government and have toxins; there is also the right wing evangelicals who also claim that vaccines have the Mark of the Beast and have toxins. Plenty of pseudoscience is not limited to one school of political thought. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 00:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Mostly it's a measure of commitment. People who are strongly bound to a position will read with more bias than those whose allegiances are looser.  Willingness to change your mind is important, as is willingness to understand contrary positions, and these things come hard to humans. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 01:21, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Frankly I have always thought moderates- left or right- are more receptive to discourse. Probliknaut (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I must also express my shock at finding that people with strongly-held views are likely to accept evidence which supports their views but reject evidence which contradicts those views. We should give it a name something like confirmation bias.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:55, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Any honest person willing to step back from the political realm can see this. Science conveys a lot of social authority with it so saying the science is on your side always sounds good and everyone claims to be pro-science until their views are contradicted by science. A lot of the same tactics are used by both sides to obfuscate the facts(science has been wrong before, what about this "expert" who disagrees with the mainstream, follow the money!) and create doubt. For liberals, the big issues where I see them fail tend to be organic farming, biological sex within humans, and nuclear power. For conservatives its evolution and global warming. Both sides have fringe corners who are hostile to modern medicine, preferring placebos, folk medicines, or other crank theories like all that really matters is nutrition. There are also people who deny the germ theory of disease and think most sickness is caused by the government poisoning us with chemicals. Neo Stalinist (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I wonder how these stats compare to those of centrists. It is after all, one of the most interesting blindspots in the study of political views. 15:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The "center" depends on where you are standing - and nobody is immune of confirmation bias.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Sri Lanka's anti-science FAIL!
Sri Lanka's president, Gotabaya Rajapaksa, made the strange and disastrous move to ban importing synthetic fertilizers and other agribusiness chemicals with predictably destructive results. At least predictable for anyone with a knowledge of basics science, agronomics, or economics. Synthetic fertilizers, first developed in 18th century Europe, are now responsible for feeding billions of people around the world. The Haber-Bosch process used to make synthetic fertilizers was one of the great leaps forward in 20th century science. Increasing yields per acre, transforming wilderness into farmland, and reducing the need for animal manures. Since then the spread of fertilizers has become a mainstay in farming. Without it, nations that are poor but still food secure would see exactly whats happening in Sri Lanka now. Keep in mind this isn't the first time a developing nation has denied itself relief due to anti-science ignorance. Zambia refused GMOs during a food crisis in 2002.

Like other government manufactured food crises before, the greatest suffering will be felt by those most vulnerable. The government will deny culpability and instead shift blame to anyone but itself. Merchants are already being accused of "hoarding". The solution to a problem generated by bad policy will be worse policy, declaring a state of emergecny and enforcing price controls by the military.

If anything "good" comes from this it will hopefully be that this serves as a kind of natural experiment so the "organic" farming crowd realizes the importance of synthetic fertilizers in maintaining and increasing world food output. We still have a way to go when it comes to convincing them on GMOs, however. Neo Stalinist (talk) 15:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I regret to inform you the Canadian government is at it again
Canada's Top Court Ruled That Oral Sex with Animals Is Legal.
 * It shouldn't be a controversial decision, Supreme courts should be extremely careful with broadening legislation (as the article says). While it is outrageous what the father did, and that there isn't a law covering animal oral sex, the court ruling is not. Westminster parliament systems should have a lot more private member bills to allow what should be non-contentious straight forward stuff to get passed. Shabi  DOO  22:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I regret clicking that link. This isn't a story about having sex with animals.  This is a story about a man forcing his stepdaughter to have sex with animals.  And while the bestiality charge was dropped the man is still guilty of a slew of other charges.  I'll admit I'm curious about the mind of the lawyers that elected to appeal his case.  Unless Canada is more generous about assigning public defenders than we are (does the term public defender even apply here?), or this man is very rich?-Hastur! (talk)  02:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Pretty disgusting facts there, but the court is right, any criminal law should be construed narrowly and all the breaks go to the accused for any ambiguity. Forcing animal sex on your stepdaughter is one thing, but if it's just you and your goat I can't imagine why anyone would care. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 02:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This is what Conservatives were worried about when they talk about Canada. Freedom on sex shouldn't include this. 10:20, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I know you're a slow learner, Ken, so I'll give you a tip. Creating an account and going straight to the saloon makes your case pretty weak, even if you pretend to be moderate. GeeJayK (talk) 13:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , I have pointedly not clicked on that link, but I regret letting trick me into reading the phrase "private member" within a post about oral sex with animals . . . -- Bertrc  (talk) 22:41, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * WTF? It wasn't even me who posted the link...I just commented on it. Zheesh  Shabi  DOO  22:52, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is clear at this point that Shabidoo considers themselves to be some sort of edgy irreverent prankster intent on "owning the libs" and combating "PC culture"-Hastur! (talk) 23:38, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe one day you two extremely useful and constructive members of this community will let me in on this joke. Shabi  DOO  10:12, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

This is sooooooo gross and goes beyond what I think is the limits of "free love." Animals can't give informed consent, and don't entire understand the action they are performing. Plus, Canada's age of consent law is 16 years, and unless it was a really old dog I don't think it was above 16. The fact that it was considered not to be legal should be setting off alarm bells. Jake Holmes''yell at me 18:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It appears that, despite Vice thoughtfully displaying a banner saying that "This story is more than 5 years old!", people don't check to see if, er, there have been any updates to a 2016 story. The problem in this case was that Canada's legal definition at the time was, er, kind of short. In particular, it didn't take the time to define what bestiality is. As in some reference books online (not all, but the Oxford definition Google helpfully displays for you is this way) the definition of bestiality is "sexual intercourse" (eg penetration and nothing else) between a human and an animal, this left open a loophole in the law. Hence the judge's ruling of no penetration=not bestiality.
 * Of course, this ruling absolutely set off alarm bells. So in 2019, Canada updated their bestiality law. Now it looks like this, including a definition where bestiality means "any contact, for a sexual purpose, with an animal", and additional text prohibiting an offender from being around animals for a period. Thus, the loophole got addressed. Problem solved. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The newest biomedical study that Trump supporters will take out of context
https://news.yahoo.com/snake-venom-may-tool-fight-213806525.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

A group of biologists in Brazil are studying snake venom from a specific species of snake as a treatment for COVID-19. Obviously this study is being carried out in proper lab conditions and by qualified scientists. These scientists make it perfectly clear that snake venom is NOT a COVID cure but rather a possible treatment. The study is in the animal trial phase; specifically, monkey cell cultures. This study shows that the molecules in the venom slow down COVID-19 virus particle replication by 75%.

Safe to say that this study will be completely misrepresented by Trump supporters and they will use snake venom to cure COVID. They already use medication for farm animals. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 20:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You probably need to treat the snakes with ivermectin first before consuming their blood, not to mention clapping three times and touching your nose with your pinky. In all seriousness that’s pretty interesting. I wonder who decided to dink around with this specific snakes venom and COVID? Probliknaut (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sometimes I wonder if Trump supporters support these quack cures just to "own the libs". I mean I really doubt that all these Trump's supporters really support using horse dewormer as a possible COVID-19 treatment. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Unless that increase in calls to poison centers is also a part of the vast lib-owning conspiracy, I think it fair to judge that Republicans are indeed getting high on their own supply, as it were. Likely it's a split - you've got your usual social terrorists who live to hurt others online, and you've got your true believers who would do anything or buy any dumb bullshit if Trump or his lackeys told them to do so. Semipenultimate (talk) 00:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The people who will selling this quack medicine are literally snake oil salesmen! BeardOfZeus (talk) 00:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The actual article has a bit less sexy of a title: "Non-Toxic Dimeric Peptides Derived from the Bothropstoxin-I Are Potent SARS-CoV-2 and Papain-like Protease Inhibitors". Interesting, but very early. Molecules is an open access journal from a publisher named MDPI, and their reputation is mixed-positive online it seems.
 * As far as "lib owning" goes for quack bullshit, a certain ex-President is vaccinated and these days is touting the benefits of the vaccines that were created during his administration. Yes, when these guys take their "alternative" medicine, they are owning a "lib" like... Donald Trump. I actually think a fair bit of Trump supporters actually are okay with the vaccine, but there's a significant conspiracy theory whackdoodle crowd on the "conservative" end these days, they are loud and noisy, and it's actually interesting to see them get pissed off at their "God Emperor" saying nice things about the jab. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 01:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say "let natural selection take its course" but a bunch of idiots might go to Brazil to hunt snakes. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 19:53, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Texas Voting Bill
I have seen several articles, such as this one, in which Texan republicans say that the bill makes voting easier. Has anyone seen anything about what is “easier” about it? I tend to read from left-leaning news outlets so I wonder if they are leaving something out, or if TX is just being a collective dickhead. Probliknaut (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably the latter. There is more voter suppression in Texas then in Georgia, and Georgia literally just voted for a Democratic president, and has two Democratic senators. Andrew5 (talk) 21:44, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Today's Republican party is all about 'tell, don't show', so you're wasting your time asking them to demonstrate proof for what they're saying. If anyone can link an actual Republican pointing to an actual feature of this law that actually makes voting easier - and not some bad faith bullshit about how 'oh this will restore faith in the process therefore more people will vote' - I'd like very much to see it. Semipenultimate (talk) 00:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's the bill in question. There are a few things that would qualify:
 * Extending early voting hours in some situations
 * Stipulating that people waiting in line to vote at the end of normal voting hours may still vote
 * Allows people to use expired ID to vote if the expiration is the only reason the ID is invalid for its normal purpose
 * Notifies people of problems with early mail-in ballots and allows them to be corrected or canceled (to allow in-person voting instead)
 * 96.60.168.60 (talk) 11:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Nice blurb, the bill you linked contradicts it. 12:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don’t delve into the text behind bills often, but the abstract doesn’t make any mention of making things easier- the focus is pretty blatantly about fraud and “increasing criminal penalties; creating criminal offenses; providing civil penalties”. Section 2.11, I think, discusses how pop up voting locations are now banned. I did see the additional hour for early voting in sec 2.07 so I’ll give you that. Probliknaut (talk) 13:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Most of these types of bills are of the "it makes it easier to get the vote results we want " variety.
 * That said, there are serious problems with the voting system. I do believe there should be ID's to vote, though I also think the registration fees for ID's shouldn't exist for reasons beyond voting; imagine a homeless guy trying to get his life together but not having enough money for a replacement social security card, birth certificate, photo ID, etc etc.  I'm also not a fan of automatically mailing ballots to everyone rather than only to those who requested them.  On the flip side, every year there's voting centers where the wait was 4+ hours long; there should be rules preventing this travesty, e.g., at least X voting booths per 10,000 registered voters, etc.  13:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Why is there a vandalism template here on RationalWiki?
Seems a bit pointless. Template:Vandalism BeardOfZeus (talk) 02:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's unused, so it hardly matters. There's plenty of dross if you look for it. Bongolian (talk) 03:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a ton of old stuff left over from our earlier days. We can't be bothered deleting it because as Bongolian says, it doesn't matter. Also, if you try deleting it you will wake the Ancient Ones, and nobody wants that. Avida Dollarsher again 11:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it break a bunch of pages?Andrew5 (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is indeed an historic reminder of days of yore. But this is a pretty bizarre example even from those far-off days. Nevertheless unless it is actually causing a problem somewhere there is probably no reason to mess with it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:10, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Imma flamethrower the Reddit article.
C'mon over to the talkpage and give me a hand, aight? Chat to youse later. - Rairyu75  ( Talk ) 19:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Was Trump a wicked person or simply a well meaning misguided person?
Would he have been a better president if he had better guidance? Or was he always going to end badly? 2607:FB90:1367:8EB1:3864:2281:6D36:581 (talk) 03:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you think random person asking rather loaded questions? What's your opinion? 04:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just wondering about how Trump's presidency went wrong. And what kind of person he was inside. If his attitude was deliberate or him not knowing better. I do not trust him to be president again but just wondering what exactly was in his mind when he made the mistakes that caused America to suffer. 2607:FB90:1367:8EB1:3864:2281:6D36:581 (talk) 23:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm not really sure that any of those adjectives or descriptions work, so it's a bit of a false dilemma. I think he was a narcissist who started to firmly believe his own lies - and he still does. I'm not entirely sure that he is even "sane" in the sense the we usually use the word.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 11:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As GrammarCommie is inferring, it seems extremely unlikely you are really interested in our opinions but waiting to reveal your own...so what are they? Do you honestly believe that Trump ran for president because he wanted to make a difference? And that his "misguided" actions were truly for the good of the country? Shabi  DOO  11:59, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I like to picture Trump as a figure skater. He wears like a white outfit, and he does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey. Buck (talk) 12:11, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


 * This is an easy question to answer, Trump was and IS a vile piece of shit in every possible way. An individual not fit for any public office, who would and will fuck over anyone and everyone to make a buck including his own children, no matter what it cost. The fact that there exist idiots who will defend the creep from any criticism just highlights the cult mentality that surrounds the prick. But, since US politics has been swaying towards hagiographic worship of such people since the second world war, possibly earlier, it doesn't really bode well for it's future as a peaceful, democratic state. (Granted it can be argued, "was it ever thus?" The history of non whites in the US would clearly say, no. Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:27, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (ec)Trump is the product of his upbringing: given whatever he wanted as soon as he wanted; never refused anything; never suffered any consequences for any wrong actions and always told that he was right whatever the deed. As ye sow so shall ye reap. We've our own miniTrump this side of the pond: Boris seems to be doing a good imitation. Scream!! (talk) 12:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What an emotionally loaded diatribe. Trump was nothing more than an incomepetent populist and a wealthy Capitalist. Granted, he has done more downright awful stuff than good stuff (Mostly regarding economics which he clearly is knowledgeable about), including attacking the LGBT, dismissions of concerns regarding extremism in the country, anti-immigration policies, and his mishandling of the covid pandemic, so he is unfit for office, but to call him a vile piece of shit is jumping the line. He did what his voters wanted him to do and I assume he mostly thought it was for the betterment of civil rights like freedom of religion. Imagine clenching your fists against lgbt rights in the name of freedom of religion though LOL... 13:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * will you go and shite. The man is a tosser. There's no defending the prick, try all you want, he's a national embarrassment who couldn't give a fuck about anyone but himself. And let's not even get into his relationship with Jeffery "wanna fuck a kid, giz a few quid and you'll be sorted" Epstein. Cardinal Chang (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * crap; Trump never gave a toss for civil rights or freedom of religion and all he knows about economics is how to stiff his creditors.Scream!! (talk) 13:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean there is also evidence of his laws pointing toward civil liberties for right-wingers. For example, he lowered taxations, and made sure gun laws were as liberal and permissive as possible which is what his Republican voters wanted.


 * WHEEEEZE, are you living under a rock? Trump is a jew and an evangelical. Why would he pretend to push religious rhetoric, most particularly to attack the LGBT with?


 * Finally, I'll also add that I said "...thought for the betterment of...". I did not say that anything he did actually benefitted civil rights and the cons outweight the pros anyways. Perhaps, learn to read. 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As soon as you learn to write. Scream!! (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Epic comeback. Next time, don't butt in just to act like a dickhead. Yes, you don't like Trump, but you're just proving Neocons right that we are so easily offended by some fat cat who managed to get himself elected via extensive usage of his money, charisma and populism when you seethe over different views from your own. 14:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Trump did some things I agree with. He started the process of withdrawal from Afghanistan that Biden is getting berated for following through on.  His secretary of education did us the favor of restoring due process and getting rid of kangaroo courts on college campuses.  But these are easily outweighed by all of the bad things he did, but most of those things were done with the collusion of Mitch McConnell and the rest of the Republican Party.  I had hoped that by choosing a New Yorker who obviously knew fuck-all about the Bible might help bring the Republicans back to their senses.  It did not happen so.  Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 14:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you think there is no redeeming quality with Trump, you are equally as cult-ish as Trump's own fanbase who claims Hillary Clinton is literally Hitler and Bernie Sanders is a tankie. Trump is over all a scumbag, although he did a few things people liked, but withdrawing that fact just because he is Trump is intellectually dishonest. 14:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Trump is over all a scumbag," so you agree with me then, even though you seem to be wanting to cause an argument. I tell you what, please tell me something positive that Trump has done that redeems him? There's a reason he's fucking despised over here in Clare, and it's nothing to do with being "cult-ish" Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I do not. At least, I do not agree with the notion that he is a vile irredeemable piece of shit, which is exactly what you stated earlier. Trump did two things that did favor some people including lowering taxation and made gun laws more permissive, though I don't know if that matters to you. More generally, Smerdis also noted his involvement with Afghanistan which is a positive and he had a few meet-ups with North Korea's and Russia's leader that mostly ended on a positive note. For example, Trump signed a peace treaty with Kim Jong-Un. 14:25, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (ec)At a guess TC you're a teenager at most. Everything Trump touched turned to shit, without exception. (Peace treaty with kim Jong-Un! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! ) Scream!! (talk) 14:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You should know better, adults don't resort to ad hominems in debate that's immature and impolite. 14:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Debate? you're not debating, you're spouting right wing crap that you've acquired from too much Fox news. (and he is a vile irredeemable piece of shit)Scream!! (talk) 14:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I hate Fox news, but thanks for asking, I watch CNN. Acting like you do right now will really not be doing you any favor outside of RationalWiki. 14:49, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "made gun laws more permissive" is a good thing? Really? And lowering taxes? (might want to read up on what taxes he lowered there.) Clearly, you're an idiot, fuck's sake.  Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:34, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * One, you missed over half of my comment. Two, I am not the one making outlandish claims that he is the worst thing to ever be born on this planet since Adolf Hitler. 14:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Did I mention Hitler? Nope. That would be yourself. A question was asked, I gave an answer, you then piped in with whatever shite you seem fine with spewing, with emetic glee. Cardinal Chang (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You said he was an irredeemable piece of shit right? That was my point, most people think of Hitler or Stalin when they think of the "worst man ever born". 14:49, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


 * " most people think of Hitler or Stalin when they think of the "worst man ever born" Do they? I think of Thatcher. And again, I never said "worst man ever born" You seem to be reading into something that isn't there. So, I'll make it simple. Trump is a vile piece of shit (Do note the words actually used. Cardinal Chang (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Being this invective about a fat cat is lamentable. Whatever cult you're both in, you would be better off leaving it. 14:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Saying that Thatcher (and indeed, any leader from a democratic country) is worse than two totalitarians that are responsible for deaths on the more than ten million each is fucking idiotic and migraine-inducing, even as an ironic opinion. Perhaps even more stupid as an ironic opinion. To say the least. GeeJayK (talk) 18:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Did I say she was worse than Hitler or Stalin? No, I didn't, but due to cultural reference points, and witnessing the results of a certain number of her policies and beliefs, make her, to me and those in similar backgrounds easily "The worst man ever born.", in a very unironic, and certainly skewed viewpoint. But definitely not moronic. Hitler and Stalin were beyond vile. Coupled with Pol Pot, Pinochet and Churchill (India famine) there's a gathering of vile cunts if ever there were any needed to be pointed out in a thread about Trump. Christ on a bike. Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, you said she's what you think about when people mention "worst man ever born", so I thought you considered her worse than Hitler and Stalin. That being said, Churchill is not guilty of the Great Bengal Famine of 1943. I'm not aware of a single academic that blames him for the famine (though I can mention many scholars that said Churchill prevented an even worse famine). The morons that say he's guilty of the famine use Amartya Sen as a source, but Sen himself came into defense of Churchill. Even on Wikipedia (probably the most unbiased source) they deleted the accusations of genocide because there aren't any sources besides The Guardian clickbait article. It's a fringe idea that tankies and nazis love, so Hiter and Stalin don't look so bad. Ah, Hindutvas love to blame him too. I don't which of these groups is the worse... GeeJayK (talk) 20:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I see your point in relation to Churchill and India, it has been years since I read up on it, and if memory serves it was most likely spurred from a discussion on medialens, before it turned into a cesspit of deranged conspiracies and pot-fueled narratives. I didn't realise A Sen had defended Churchill, my bad. And this offers a much needed revision on my part. Thanks. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

He was always going to end badly. He doesn’t take advice as a rule and even if he did there’s no set of advisors who would be both competent and deferential enough to his easily bruised ego, so he’s willingly and perpetually surrounded by yes men and hucksters (incidentally the only folks willing to say you can go back the way things were, which I imagine speaks to the anima of Trump’s voters). He’s the poor man’s conception of being wealthy, the flat-footed’s totem of success. By the time he announced his candidacy he was an older, slower version of the guy who started with every advantage and went bankrupt multiple times in a truly epic fashion. Leaving aside that hostility to knowledge and the world with its eternal assaults on the self, he’s still a bad guy: spiteful, petty, greedy. He regularly took time out of his busy schedule of cable news to feud with celebrities, which you should hope was beneath a guy with command of a nuclear arsenal but wasn’t. Artificius (talk) 14:54, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If those lackeys ever said anything negative, Trump or his voters would shut them down. Trump does not like criticism and neither do his voters funnily enough. Too bad Trump's childish behavior was his own downfall. 14:57, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Is transchicken another stopper-by bent on making a few edits, Briefly telling us how to do things on the site and show everyone how stupid and wrong they are or will this be a long term issue? Shabi  DOO  15:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No: just an idiot! Scream!! (talk) 15:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Scream, fix your conniption fits. 15:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you still seething from the time I stated that Machina should be mocked for spouting homophobic rhetoric out of incel anger? &mdash; Unsigned, by: TransChicken / talk / contribs
 * So much ink wasted over such little substance... 15:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I personally don't judge the figurehead as much as the trash that made the figurehead possible. Globally, there has been a wave of dumb tribalism-oriented masochistic authoritarian-wannabe leaders in positions of power of late. Donald Trump was one of them. The only reason that he got power is because in 2016 he stood out from 15 other milquetoast Republicans by stating that he wanted to ban Muslims and "rapist" Mexicans instead of doing the usual dog whistle thing. Trump also is a dumb bully asshole type, and all caps tweets was actually attractive to the alt-right troll crowd instead of being an embarrassment. But there are many others like him around the globe, and the end result could have been worse (see what's happening in present day Brazil with Jair Bolsonaro for instance), so in some ways over-focusing on Trump is wrongheaded. Trump proved to be overall a poor leader. His administration certainly did some things I agree with (such as starting the withdrawal of Afghanistan and kick-starting COVID vaccines). But I think his presidency will be remembered chiefly for his use of racist rhetoric and boosting of white nationalism (to the point of inciting a riot of chucklefuck Y'all Qaeda wannabes at the Capitol), his chaotic and scandal prone administration that didn't accomplish a whole lot, his mishandling of COVID-19, and whatever the result is of the authoritarian drift of the Republican Party that he definitely helped accelerate (but really began with Newt Gingrich if I was honest). None of these are positives. But some of these issues involve far more players than him alone. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Newt Gingrich is my bookmark in the American story for where the GOP embraced the dark side of political nihilism as well. I remember a gloating interview in the immediate aftermath of Trump’s 2016 victory in which when asked about the phantom nature of the issues Trump voters were concerned about, he replied “It’s about what [those voters] feel is going on in this country.” So he seemingly knew these people were acting from misguided angst and zero better angels and just did not give a fuck. Artificius (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, in a sense, all of this has been building up since the southern strategy.-Flandres (talk) 16:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The southern strategy was when the GOP started getting a daily Big Gulp because it seemed cheap and easy, Newt Gingrich’s arrival on the scene was when they developed type 2 diabetes, their point of no return. Like any diabetic, when denied insulin/sugar/political power they get cranky. Artificius (talk) 20:49, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Working From Home
Maybe this is as exciting as talking about the weather, but are you folks still working from home, if you ever transitioned to do so? Do you like it? Why or why not? My wife and I have been since March 2020, and I love it. I don’t waste gas to and from, can dig around in the fridge when I want and get to stay the hell away from folks who want to lean on my cubicle and chat. On a more serious note I feel much safer at home than work, COVID wise and physically; I mean, I haven’t had a cold, even, since we started working at home. I would describe myself as an introvert, so I know that a lot of folk are more antsy and eager to get to see people’s faces, though, and power to them. Probliknaut (talk) 16:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Working from home and fucking loving it. Might wear off after a few more months, but will enjoy it while I can. Waking up 5 minutes before work is a HUGE plus. Shabi  DOO  16:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * But the worry that is easily ignored is, there's nothing to stop your company hiring someone in a different country to do your job for less pay. Cardinal Chang (talk) 18:13, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess it depends on the job. I have no concern for that with my particular role. man and not wearing pants? Icing on the cake. Probliknaut (talk) 18:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm in New Zealand. Had 6 weeks WFH last year, and another 6 weeks so far this year - but this year's effort is only 3 weeks due Covid  outside of Auckland which is stil in lockdown, the rest (before and ongoing now) is because my office building was "suddenly" found to not meet earthquake standards and everyone had to leave!  As a bit of a loner - don't mind at all.  As has been mentioned - saving on gas and train fares, and takeaway lunches! :)  Can play a couple of War Thunder games at lunchtime, am not spending a couple of hours travelling - more game time!  Local bakery does a great range of Danishes and various other sweets and pies....  all in all very happy! :D Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 22:56, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Biden
Biden dissaproval rating amongst registered or likely registered voters hits 50%. Andrew5 (talk) 18:30, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In 2020, Dem candidates kept dropping out for no other reason than to make sure that Biden got the nomination and not Bernie, because the establishment is that powerful. The Republican establishment has nowhere near that much power; if it was up to them, Jeb Bush would've been the 2016 nominee.  They have no control over Trump, and you can bet he will run again in 2024.  The Republicans have to support him or he will run as a third party the way Teddy Roosevelt did in 1912, and guarantee a Dem victory.  As for 2022, I think it's going to come down to more BS regarding mail-in ballots.  If the Dems can extend the lockdowns for just 1 more year, the mail in ballots will give them the advantage.  If it's a normal midterm, the Republicans win.  18:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This lack of control ironically comes from the GOP being ironically more democratic than the Democratic party (and vice versa) by a lack of superdelegates, right? Are there other factors? Artificius (talk) 18:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Conservatives are more likely to tow the party line to begin with, as there's not much variation of "status quo". The Left has always been a massive herd of irritable cats who all have wildly different visions of what the world should be, so they need a tighter leash in order to get anything done.  19:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

My new gender identity!
My new gender identity is RationalWiki moderator!! Since trans-men are men and trans-women are women, this means that trans-RationalWiki moderators are also RationalWiki moderators!!! If you misgender me from this point then you are a transphobe!!!!!!! Unclescrooge (talk) 19:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 19:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I identify as a rubber band. Anything you say bounces off of me, and sticks to you instead.  19:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * CorruptUser, you're the best editor on this site. :) Senioritas (talk) 19:38, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This was an excellent example of situational comedy as well. "My new gender identity!" is immediately followed by a troll collapse, this made me laugh. Artificius (talk) 19:44, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Bumbling towards the eschaton
So, like, shit's fucked, right? And in bizarrely multidisciplinary ways, yes? Let's zoom back a decade: we were thinking about Al-Qaida getting airstruck and Steve Jobs resigning from Apple, probably, yeah? And if you travelled back in time and wanted to vaguely allude to the *fresh* hardships that would come upon the world over the next decade, you would've had to say *"you need to keep a very close eye on the Gamers."* Plus maybe a "go read Altemeyer" if you could scream one last thing before being slurped back home by the energy vortex. What?! Shit's fucked. I'm not sure if we should try to study "Eschatology" in schools, or if I'm just saying "maybe I was born to read Malcom Gladwell the latest diatribes on Twitter and drink." nfd (talk) 20:48, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you want decent reference points for when shit looks totally fucked, like teetering-on-the-brink fucked, try May 1940 and October 1962. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Zero contest, zero contest. I'm not sure where to draw the line between "totally teetering-on-the-brink fucked" and "some visible light is emitted from the cosmic background field of teetering-on-the-brink-fuckedness," personally. Do I say shit was fucked at the times of known Broken Arrows, or do I say shit is just passively teetering-on-the-brink fucked because we know there's *more* of those? Is shit fucked when the eschaton really starts sinking its teeth into your leg, or when everybody sees it there and shrugs and says "yep, ain't that how it is?" nfd (talk) 21:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The Open University in the UK
Is using this version of the pride flag for some website pages and email signatures:

Shabi DOO  21:19, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Good idea actually, it is pretty controversial though. Senioritas (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes we had quite the debate on the issue a few months ago here in the Saloon. I supported things like the new flag though it seemed, if my memory serves me correct, that I was very much alone in my support on an uber inclusive pride flag. I am not going to say that arguments against it were bad ones, but I still totally stand by extra inclusive transflags and the value of black/brown stripes. Shabi  DOO  22:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the flag is too literal. I think the old LGBT flag was all right with its old 6 colour stripes as the different colours didn't mean anything. Like for example the Canadian flag. The colours and the maple leaf doesn't mean anything, it just represent "Canadianess" if you get what I mean. Also having stripes for different melanins is silly in my opinion. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Having stripes for different melanins is indeed silly, but discriminating against people for having different amounts of melanin in their skin is even more ridiculous. LongStylus (talk) 04:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't believe for a second it is silly. While I understand the will to stay with this same ole flag with its "colour blindness", it is a completely reasonable stance to take that other colours are added, especially to include black LGBTQ+ people who are famously marginalised within the very marginalised LGBTQ+ community. Turns out that this new design is being used by other institutions and even local governments (which I only just learnt about). Shabi  DOO  16:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That flag looks hideous. The old rainbow flag was fine. Don’t fix what ain’t broke. 19:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Both flags are hideous. Shabi  DOO  19:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't personally like the flag for a number of reasons. From a vexiology perspective, the identing arrow makes the flag look really busy with all the extra colors. From an opinion perspective, it just looks ugly. From a meaning perspective, I don't like it because it forces an overlap between two matters that... aren't really that related for the brown stripe? Like, sexuality and gender have nothing to do with race. I get there's an argument to be made that LGBTQ+ racial minorities often get sidelined in these discussions, but I don't think a flag is the right place to put that. Maybe a flag for that subcommunity specifically would be more useful than changing the overall pride flag. As for the trans flag (where I guess I have more standing), my dislike for it is that while it's true that trans people get marginalized pretty badly when it comes to LGBTQ (fuck off TERFs), it's a bit odd to primarize them on the flag like this. I don't mind trans flag incorporation in like, logos, but I find it personally a bit weird to put it on the flag itself like this. To me the original rainbow flag sorta symbolizes this freeing nature that it doesn't really matter where you come from, who you are, who you want to be and who you want to fall in love with, it's all fine, you don't have to belong in a box. Adding these specific "meaning" colors and the like to the flag kinda feels like we're trying to reinvent boxes for people to belong in, which is a thought that scares me. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:56, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, what about intersex people, or asexual people, or genderfluid people? What about those who want to place sex workers on the flag (as some do with a red umbrella)? Why are those specifically on the LGBT flag? In my opinion, this will just clutter the flag up so much in the future. BeardOfZeus (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In My opinion, the Pride flag is already walking on a tightrope. It already is bearing the weight of six colors (try and list other flags with six colors on them that are NOT just inflated by their coat-of-arms) and the new colors just break the camel's back. The Black and Brown stripes never made much sense to me, because they seemed to me to divide people when a flag should unite them. Lastly, Transgendered people already have their own flag that from what I know often gets flown as a sort of sister/brother flag anyway. An Advocate (talk) 22:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I can understand some of the arguments made here but I don't for a second buy the "creates division" argument. By that argument, the pride flag itself creates division by representing a sub-group of humans. If "dividing" is to be avoided then the argument should be to scrap the flag itself. In any case, if the flag requires 1,000 different shades and stipes and sections to accommodate the requests of marginalised groups and advocates, I don't see the harm in adding them. If it should be generic then just have a white field with LGBTQ+ on it. It is already a hideous ugly flag that I never voted for or agreed to. Shabi DOO  12:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The end result would be the vexillogical equivalent of this and this. Anna Livia (talk) 10:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It's Spud's 10th RationalWiki anniversary
I'm celebrating 10 years on RationalWiki. I created my account on 10th September 2011. And I've made as near as damn it at least one edit on average every single day since then.

Now let's see if any of the real Old Guard come out of the woodwork to say they've been here since 2007. Spud (talk) 12:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well done, have some cake. I don't exist here, and have been not existing here since the site was founded, and will probably continue to not exist here for a while at least. Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Under one or two names since 01:46, 13 July 2007 me and my sis. Scream!! (talk) 12:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on ten years! (And yes, I've been around since the very beginning too.)Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Ten cheers for Spuddy!!! Shabi DOO  15:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have been here since 2013. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Celebration! BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey Spud, congrats on 10 years, and a toast to another 10. I got a little while until that deadline here (Officially joined in 2016, after lurking for a bit).--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 20:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the cake. I've actually recently celebrated my 15th anniversary on Wikipedia (the English one rather than the Danish one). Spud (talk) 22:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy tenniversary! Avida Dollarsher again 10:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

A TV show the accurately portrays conspiracy theorists
From the animated sitcom from the 1970's called Wait Till Your Father Gets Home. The show itself is about a conservative guy who faces a generation gap between his kids and an ever changing society.

Now the main character by the name of Harry has a neighbor by the name of Ralph who believes in every conspiracy he hears, not matter how absurd it is.

The character Ralph is absolutely obsessed with hunting communists to the point that he manages to build an entire wall around his neighborhood to keep communists out. Ralph also turns in people with Hispanic and Slavic names into the FBI by calling them Communists. In one episode the character Harry gets hit on the head with a bowling ball and goes to the ER. The doctor gives Harry high dose aspirin. Ralph was trying to prevent Harry from taking the aspirin. Ralph believed that aspirin is produced by Communists to kill people.

Safe to say that the show accurately portrayed conspiracy theorists. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You get a perfect score on Rotten Tomatoes. Certified fresh SensaurC-137 (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Members of Congress and Their Staff Are Exempt From Biden's Vaccine Mandate
Why would the Biden administration mandate injections for everyone but themselves?
 * I don't know obvious baitposting sealion. What do you think? 01:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * OK bud, sixth grade lesson: there are three branches of government: executive, legislative and judicial. Executive orders only apply to the executive branch and those dependent upon the pleasure of the executive branch. That does not include Congress. UncleKrampus (talk) 01:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Ooh, another person who doesn't know how branches of government differ.--A p r i l Chat? 03:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Dogs have tested positive for Covid-19. Is Joe Biden's dog getting vaccinated against Covid-19? Farnodo (talk) 05:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What's that got to do with the price of eggs? Kntai (talk) 09:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * We know from Tara Reade's testimony (and the testimony of her mother), video/pictures of Biden touching children and numerous woman's complaints about Biden that he is a dirty old man and a pervert. If his dog got Covid-19 and Biden had relations with his dog, who knows what would happen? There is not a lot of data about this sort of thing. Just to be on the safe side, Biden's dog should be vaccinated. Joe Biden is an elderly man so he might not survive getting Covid-19. Farnodo (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * fuck off please AMassiveGay (talk) 12:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Biden is already vaccinated, so getting COVID from his dog is the least of his concerns when having sex with his dog. He should worry more about getting an STD or getting injured during intercourse. You're not even attempting at arguing in good faith here. LongStylus (talk) 13:02, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

The Landlord and the Bees (Yes I am venting)
Okay, in the past several days me and my family had been having a problem with a bee infestation. The landlord sealed off part of the hive and did not hire an exterminator. The landlord sealing off part of the hive made the infestation so much worse. In the past few days me and my family killed about 200 bees. The landlord said that he did not want to spend $1000 on hiring an exterminator. He is more worried about saving his wallet than keeping the apartments safe! In the process of killing bees I got stung on the inner thigh (at least I did not get stung on my nuts, that would have hurt a whole lot worse). My mom got stung on the arm. Basically we are stuck killing bees nonstop and likely the landlord making it worse again. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Man, if only there was a way to create smoke, you'd be able to chill those fuckers out & do whatever you wanted with the hive. Here's hoping that one day science & technology catches up with your dilemma. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 18:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Alas, the carbon monoxide poisoning makes such a solution null and void.  18:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * i dunno how american laws work over there but this sounds like something the landlord would have to deal with and pay for the exterminator AMassiveGay (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Find your local beekeepers' association/allotment group and ask them for help.
 * One online site suggests garlic powder/citronella/cucumber peel (I think separately).
 * Remind the landlord that 'legal fees for absence of care' are likely to be significantly greater than $1k.
 * Does your local council require 'licenses for landlording' or similar so they can get them involved? Anna Livia (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What kind of crazy smoke cannon are you using with your bees? I mean, I've heard things are always bigger in Texas, but seriously... Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 19:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I honestly have no idea as to how the laws pertaining to this sort of thing work. Pretty sure that the landlord has to take care of this sort of thing. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If these are indeed honey bees, you may be able to hire a local bee removal service that will try to move them to a safer location off of your property. It usually requires moving he queen and at least part of the nest; the rest of the bees normally follow after this. The landowner is legally responsible for making your dwelling habitable, and there are actions that you can take if it is not, such as putting rent in escrow or paying for the repairs yourself and deducting it from the rent. You should check with your local tenants' rights association if you have one or check the local legislation if you don't before taking such action. Bongolian (talk) 20:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Many states have laws which allow you to deduct maintenance costs out of your rent. Check to see if that's the case in your state, and if so send the legal hire the exterminator yourself, and send a copy of the invoice and the relevant legal docs to your landlord regarding why your rent is short $1k that month.  06:03, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Interesting
Apparantely spambots use abbreviations now. Interesting. (If an admin sees please delete & block ASAP). Andrew5 (talk) 18:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Apparantely it was deleted, but not as spam? I'm so confused...Andrew5 (talk) 19:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It was.Andrew5 (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It was an overtly 'hopelessly off-mission' spam.
 * It is when the spambots can tailor their spawn to the website/discussion group that we should become concerned. Anna Livia (talk) 09:42, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

There are no more Jewish people in Afghanistan (No this is not an anti-semitic post)
https://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/nation-world/world/article254073493.html

With the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan, the Jewish population either fled or were killed. Wonder how long before more non-Islamic groups are driven out of Afghanistan due to threats of their safety?

I feel sympathy for these people driven out of their homes. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 23:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I remember somewhere watching that there was only like 1 Jewish person in all of Afghanistan BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ...Right? Not going to say it is or ever was exactly zero, but the presence of the religion and its people in Afghanistan was probably pretty close until Jewish servicemembers of the various imperial powers rolled in and approached zero as those powers rolled were chased out ever since the Babylonian exile and later the diaspora following the second temple's destruction, the late Kaifeng Jewish population and whatever route they took to China notwithstanding.Artificius (talk) 00:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Or killed? No, there was only one. He fled. Andrew5 (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Al-Jazzera article on Jews in Afghanistan - salient points - first recorded as exiles by the Assyrians 2700 years ago, influx in early 19thC from Persian oppression - maybe 36,000, then slowly decreasing, 3300 left in 1936. Many left for Israel, and more from 1979 with start of civil war.  Descendants of Afghan Jews still visit to "reconnect with their roots" Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * At this point I'm concerned about that synagogue. Islamists love to turn churches and synagogues into mosques as a form of dominance, to remind all infidels that eventually, everything they ever had will be the property of Islam.  14:29, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I had a Pakistani buddy/classmate who told a story about that: he and his family were Christian in the old country (converts from Sikhism about fifty to a hundred years ago), some podunk moron of the local flavor tried to steal their church by performing the magical ritual/spell that irreversibly transforms an otherwise unremarkable pile of rocks and lumber into a mosque in the shadow of night, so they beat the living fuggin’ tar out of him and he ran off. I always picture this unwashed, toothless git who has nothing going for him but his faith, yet somewhere in the back of his head he thinks "at least I’m better than those people." Then he proved himself wrong. Artificius (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * And then that toothless git then ran around telling stories about how he got beaten up by Christians because he was practicing his Islamic faith, and then a lynch mob formed in front of the church. 18:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That's what I would have figured, but... said buddy didn't actually elaborate and I never thought to ask (he was weird about Pakistan. Seemed to hate Muslims but was fiercely nationalistic). I'll text him and see if there's such an ending to the story or if that nobody was so wretched that nobody else gave a shit when he was "beaten up by a Christian mob" (I'm picturing Cricket from "Always Sunny"). It's also very possible that their neighbors were just cool with them as long as they kept to themselves and didn't start handing out bibles and such. Fundamentalism and xenophobia can be a bit like the weather. Artificius (talk) 19:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So I got a response: the douchebag was laying stones in order to build the mosque, was successfully run off, and a mob didn't form. My guess is that guy sucked at life hard enough that the local religious minority was a much more sympathetic figure than him. Could be projecting, had a character like that in my family. Artificius (talk) 21:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Islamist suffer crushing defeat in Morocco
Maybe the Taliban played a role of voting out Islamists. 05:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

UK Taxes
I have recently moved to the UK. I've been working here for a couple months, getting used to a very different pace of work and office environment. Unemployment is relatively high in Spain at the moment per COVID and because of Brexit there is a fairly large labour shortage. I got a job in no time. Though I am fairly shocked to see that salaries haven't increased much in 20 years (I worked for a couple years in London 20 years ago). To say the rich keep getting richer here and the middle class barely see an improved standard of living is an understatement. The taxes are a fair bit lower than in continental Europe, so it isn't like I am outraged by a small tax increase. But what does seriously bother me is that the conservative government has raised NI taxes (for all) with a cut off point for the rich, and hasn't touched corporate taxes, capital gains taxes or is yet to make any serious effort to get companies like Amazon, google, facebook etc to pay a remotely fair share of taxes on the profit they earn in the UK. I know this is a fairly common thing for conservative governments to do, get the poorest to take on an absurdly unfair burden and they can go fuck themselves very much if they don't like it, but after nearly two decades of austerity...I still find it surprising (as well as the fairly tepid response to this by other parties). What is going on here? I swear I see far more people rough sleeping in the street than 20 years ago, more visible social problems in general and a decaying of the social net (as well as some empty supermarket shelves sometimes because of Brexit). Is this just a logical end for a conservative ideology? Shabi DOO  13:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's labor shortage in Canada as well. I'm personally unemployed because I don't want to get COVID, the anti-Asian racism scares me, and I'm dealing with health problems. Not doing online learning either as my apartment is normally loud during the day, so I can't study. I used to live in a decent condo that has a study room, but the increasing rent caused me to move out. Life sucks everywhere. LongStylus (talk) 14:15, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's almost as if the British government cares more about retired people and the rich than working people. I wonder who those groups vote for. --Annanoon (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you're a bit misguided here, Shabi. The best way to combat inequality is not by taxation (although I agree it does play an important role on this matter). The best way to fight inequality is with good public policies. Now, don't get me wrong, I do support progressive taxes, but there's an important tradeoff between them and economic development (see Ireland, they are growing faster than China in part because their taxation is low). lLet's not forget which country has the most progressive taxes in the world.
 * (After moving back to the States from Sweden, I make twice what I did there, yet pay half the taxes. That's progressive? Zontar (talk) 21:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC))
 * The social expenditure in UK is slightly higher than the average OECD. As far as I know that's also truth to taxation. That means there’s still more space for more social spending (and, I repeat, more progressive taxation), but that alone will not do it.
 * Also, I disagree with the 20 years of austerity stuff. Government spending has been in deficit for over 20 years in UK. The deficits in fact started in 2001/2002.
 * Not sure about the quality of life too. Between 2006 and 2018 the median household income rose from 223 k to 286,6k.
 * Public police is a complicated subject and there are always tradeoffs. If you want a good paper about how to tax the rich, I suggest this article by Harvard professor Greg Mankiw. GeeJayK (talk) 15:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The best way to combat inequality is to get rid of the fawking foreign "investors". The way it works in California is that multi-billionaires from overseas buy up all the homes and then rent them out, and locals have no choice but to pay the increased rents because there is nowhere else to go.  So instead of paying down a mortgage to eventually own a bit of real estate, you pay someone else to make them even richer which they use to buy up even more homes to jack up the rents even further.  The MEDIAN home price in Cali is $800,000.  If you graduate from medical school with $500k in debt, spend a few years in residency and then finally start making $200k+, you STILL can't afford to live in California.
 * The easiest way to combat this is to set the tax rate for primary residences at 2% and anything else, whether an apartment building or complex or second home, is 5%. Or better yet, a progressive property tax, e.g., 1% on the first $250k and 4% on anything above $250k.  This would massively drive down the value of homes to the point where they are affordable, and always make a plot of land more valuable as a private residence than a rental.  If you want a second vacation home in a really good location that's where a local would otherwise be able to walk to work, then you better be willing to pay out the wazoo.  16:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That might be an option, but the shortage of houses is just one type of inequality. Besides, the main reasons why houses are so expensive in California are, as far as I know, far more controversial. This article by the Harvard professor Edward Glaeser blames the building restrictions for the lack of supply, for exemple. I believe this sort of policy might distort the market even more, resulting in even less houses available. You can argue (I'm just guessing here, I've never seen anything that suggests it) that there are already enough houses in California, so it's not a problem of supply, but even if that's the case I'm not sure that your idea is the best solution for a myriad of reasons that I don't have time to elaborate rn. GeeJayK (talk) 17:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * California is also on a fault line that gets regular earthquakes, tall construction is both expensive and dangerous. There's routine wildfires, droughts, mudslides, etc, and paving over more of the landscape for homes will only make those issues worse.  Granted the drought situation could be blamed entirely on almond farms, but even so.  Then there's illegal immigration; regardless of your stance on the matter, once you hit the max building limit, even if an immigrant family of 8 can squish into a 2BR apartment, that's still a 2BR unavailable for anyone else.  In the meantime, illegal immigrants working for untaxed low wages is a big part of why rich people's homes are so valuable; if the nanny cost an extra $5k/yr, at 5% interest that would literally would take away $100k from the home's value, to say nothing of the gardeners, mechanics, landscapers, cooks, construction workers, etc.  17:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC) Yeah, I don't deny that. It's a very difficult problem with no solution on sight. See, I'd bet that many of these restrictions are stupid, I'm sure many of them are also important. I'd also add that everyone thinks living by the beach is better than living on the desert, while living in the mountains is impossible for most of us. Also, I don't think global warming will make Cali any less uninhabitable... GeeJayK (talk) 17:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * GeeJayK, the government of the UK has been either slashing many social programs or it has been inadequately keeping up with inflation. Having a deficit does not mean people aren't suffering from cuts/insufficient-funding. I see it literally all around me. I notice with my bare eyes the changes that have happened in 20 years, and I know the enormous list of programs the conservatives have axed from closing down homeless shelters to reducing benefits for the most vulnerable to not keeping NHS funding up with inflation.
 * I never said taxes should be raised. I said I am highly bothered by the way only one tax was increased which puts an unfair burden on poor people, while other taxes were not increased.
 * As for dealing with inequality, lowering taxes has rarely brought about better equality in modern history unless it specifically lessened the burden on the poor (which few governments do) without accompanying social spending cuts. Picketty, amongst many others did a fairly thorough analysis between tax cuts and less than impressive improvements for lower and middle class (especially as so many tax cuts disproportionately favour those with means) and put an end to the preposterous myth of the trickle down effect.
 * One need only look at numerous European countries with substantial taxes and a higher level of equality and the United States, with very low taxes and utterly shocking inequality and in many states, an inhumane lack of social services and support, homelessness and terrible poverty (and all the crime and social issues that come with it). There are outliers, but in the Western World at least, lowering taxes does not equal equality, and if lowering those taxes comes along with slashing services (as it often does) it worsens inequality.
 * I am not complaining about the tax rise. Taxes are low in the UK compared with where I have lived before. It is, yet again, a tax that makes being poor even more expensive and barely bothers those with means, all of which will barely return social programs to the relative funding of 20 years ago. Shabi  DOO  23:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Maybe my comment was incomprehensible or I was misunderstood. I did find your answer a bit detached from my previous post, but I’ll try to answer your point. Sorry sorry for the quote mining, I hate it just as much as the next person. I’ll start with the conclusion and then elaborate: The points you’ve mentioned aren’t really related to austerity or taxation, even if they’re true.

So, Shabi, you claimed that the government of the UK has been slashing many social programs. Maybe they are cutting on individual programs, but the overall spending is still growing steadly. The social spending as a percentage of the GDP rose from 16 to 21% between 2000 and 2019. During the same period, the GDP grew by almost a third, what means an even more dramatic rise in social spending. You can say that they’re spending in bad programs. Maybe they are. But the problem here isn’t austerity or fiscal conservativism, since, as we saw, they are spending more in any measurements we can use. That’s also truth to you claim about the NHS: the health spending rose between 2010 and 2019. The British Government spends far more than the Danish, government, the Finnish Government, the Australian government, the Italian government (although far less than the American government) with healthcare with

I wasn’t clear when I mention taxation. I meant tax burden. The UK still have space to have a higher tax burden that will allow the country to spend more on social security, but this will also result in a slower growth, you can see what I wrote here what I wrote. I’m usually embarrassed by most of my edits on the main space, this is one of my favorites. Which one should the electors choose? Both are good choices, but the tradeoff is real. Now, for having a more progressive taxation, that could also work (I usually support it due to my deontological beliefs), but that is also dangerous and may cause economic inefficiency (which also means a drop in the quality of life. I don’t know a lot about the taxes in UK, so I’m not going to say if it should pursuit a more progressive taxation, much the extent of this  progressivity.

I didn’t claim that lower taxes result in less inequality (indeed, I claimed otherwise, taxes are an important tool to lower inequality). I'm not sure I understand your opinion. You want lower taxes without cutting spending? That doesn’t really make sense. Someone has got to pay, and I repeat, you can’t just “tax the rich” and call it a day. You can “slash” social programs and still have austerity (and a strong social security). that’s what the Social Democrats in Sweden did.

As for the great economist Piketty (and not Picketty) I believe I’m far more familiar with his work than most people here, and I don’t understand what trickle-down economics has to do with anything. Indeed, trickle-down economics became a snarl word and a strawman; it has very little to do with actual supply side economics. The article here on RW is so bad that I suspect that even the Conservapedia article might be better. I suggest these two papers by Martin Feldstein if you want to understand what the heck is supply side economics anyway.

Still regarding the US, I repeat, they have the most progressive tax system in the OECD. Hardly a good example in this matter. About the Western world, this OECD paper claims that the effects vary so much it’s impossible to reach conclusion like yours.

I wanted to write a lot more (like, twice as more as I did), but I’m exhaustedand my comment is already too long, boring and technical to a Saloon discussion. I think your intentions are the best and despite the sharp tone you’re definitely engaging in good faith, but your opinion on this matter relies too much on your personal experience and perception of the world. This is good, we all do this. But I don’t think these are substitutes to empirical evidence and data, which IMO contradict some of your claims. GeeJayK (talk) 04:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes GeeJayK, I massively misread your reply. I had somehow read that you said lowering taxes improved economic inequality, and the only way I could imagine you would conclude that, as many people still do...is through the supposed magic of trickle down economics. Taxes are more than just personal income tax, as in many countries there are multiple taxes on personal income, but also VAT, corporate taxes, capital gains taxes etc. As for government spending, government spending can go up, without it properly improving social spending (i.e. the money goes towards improving trade, farming subsidies, foreign service, military etc) to the point that social programs do not keep up with inflation. So that, NHS spending increases but not at say, pre 10 years ago spending with inflation (when the conservatives took over). They can claim they raised NHS spending (which they do) but if it doesn't keep up with inflation and growing population and medical costs, then it isn't much of an increase). I'm probably also using austerity as a term used in continental Europe (austeridad for example) which refers not to less spending but spending that is hard on the general populous. So my bad in both cases. Anyways, sorry for royally and colossally misreading your text.
 * I don't think any of this takes away from my original point, that the conservative government's quick grasp for money was a national insurance tax which disproportionately hurts the worst off. It is a cruel thing to do in a time when people are already hurting and there were other means to raise that money. May I also point out that the 7 billion raised by this tax is a lot less than the money lost by terrible post-brexit planning and waste (though that is a different topic).  Shabi  DOO  10:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

September eleven
Who even really cares about 9/11? I mean for real, Isis left a large trail of blood behind them, but so did the KKK and no one talks about the KKK anymore since the 2000's, and I observe the same trend for Isis. I can say with certainty that in several decades, Isis and 9/11 will be forgotten entirely like the KKK.

I'm not even talking about progressive circles or RationalWiki who discuss about them, I'm saying that in general, everyone around me seems to forget about 9/11 and if I ask them about the KKK, they simply think they are fringe alt-righters which makes me so aggravated. They murdered 3 thousand people, they are not the same as those wannabe chauvinist pissants of the alt-right. 19:00, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I take it you don't live anywhere near New York. Those of us who do (I'm in southwestern CT, on the rare occasions there's no traffic a bit more than an hour drive away) sure haven't forgotten it. An entire family in my hometown at the time was on one of the flights, and my parents knew someone whose brother jumped from the 105th floor. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 19:06, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * it launched two wars - afghanistan and iraq - the defining events of the last 20 years. the op is a twat. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Say what you will, the fact is undeniable that there are people who forgot what 9/11 is even about. There is a video on Youtube where Americans couldn't be bothered to name a single country outside the US, so that low knowledge is unsurprising in itself. 19:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Compassion fatigue is real, but it's one of those events of which you remember where you were forever. Freshman year, just after lunch, halfway across the country, wandering late into class. Artificius (talk) 19:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not American, but we still talk about it down here once in a while. I'd say it was the most important event of the century before the pandemic. We also talk about the KKK sometimes. GeeJayK (talk) 19:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC) Chemistry class, early morning. One of the low level admins had said a plane crashed into the tower.  We weren't sure what had happened, we all thought it was a Cesna or something tiny.  Then the rumor in the halls was that is was two planes.  We all sat in front of those CRT TVs on the rolling stand things, class was more or less halted besides watching.  The video cameras showed a couple of people jumping to their deaths, but in the aftermath it turns out that was only a tiny fraction of the people who did just that.  Then all of a sudden the south tower collapsed; there was so much smoke we couldn't even see if it had been the whole tower or just a large chunk of it.  Then the north tower did the same thing.  19:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I imagine for those out there too young to have lived through it directly (eg anyone 20ish or younger), it's more an event of history versus something you directly remember experiencing. However, it's a pretty monumental event of United States history that we're still living in the shadow of. It's like saying people will forget about Pearl Harbor or the Battle of Gettysburg, this hasn't happened yet either. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Gettysburg is the place that keeps all the internet pictures, right? Artificius (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is also a very cool (. If you have five hours to spare, watch it. The prequel is also decent, even though some people might find it offensive. GeeJayK (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, WWII. It may shock younger people today, but back then, people all agreed that Nazis were a bad thing.  My Grandpa was too young to join the military, but he did it anyway by lying about his age.  I don't think we will ever again see that level of patriotism, where people were willing to pick up a gun and possibly die to protect their fellow countrymen in another time zone.  Today we have a bunch of man-babies that are too terrified of a widdle needle or a facemask to protect their own neighbors, or become emotional, hysterical wrecks because someone used a different pronoun than they wanted. 19:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I should have worded my sentences better, but I was talking about specifics. The name "9/11" is still present in people's memories, but no one around me can remember what it was in detail. My example with the KKK was that, an example, to illustrate the point. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the KKK are the most repulsive domestic terrorist organization in America. I know it is anecdotal (As I would learn from Blade), but I remember talking about 9/11 to a friend and they couldn't remember the details of it, they said it was "an accident where a plane crash landed". I then asked for more details, but they didn't know any better, I had to tell them it was a terrorist attack and the plane did not just "crash land". As for the comment about Pearl Harbor, meh, nobody remembers what it was and some cranks call it a hoax. Some people don't remember what was the Vietnam war and it is in the video I mentioned previously. 19:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 20:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


 * That video is from The Chaser, one of their earlier one off's for ABC in Australia, and while it is clearly selectively edited to highlight a point, that was the entire point of the programme, to satirize Rolling News. They eventually went on to make The Chaser's War on Everything and The Hamster Factor. Ending the 4 year run of the Chaser, (which included dressing as a Muslim terrorist outside Bush's hotel, dressing as Barney and demanding royalties from Dick Chaney, posing as a Canadian Government motorcade for a summit where Canada wasn't invited, and getting taken off air for offending terminally sick children as well as The Eulogy Song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtxqohNtLIg) with one host turning half of himself into Daniel Craig. Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


 * If you are interested in seeing more of these, a Youtuber dedicated an entire channel to ask simple questions to strangers on the streets and them being unable to answer accordingly. 09:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

That makes more sense, but I can remember that Tuesday morning very, very well. Until not so long ago, pretty much everyone around my age (early 30s or late 20) would claim that they were watching Dragon Ball Z when the horrible images came out of the blue. For years, I claimed that it was Mandela effect and they all laughed at me. Then a couple years ago a site showed that DBZ wasn't on TV at that moment. It took almost 20 years, but I was avenged. But seriously, I remember that day very well. Hell, I remember even drawing an airplane bombing Palestine (I don't think I even know was Palestine was before that day) because I was pissed and everyone thought it was them, not Bin Laden, that was behind the attack in the first day. GeeJayK (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I was less than a year old when it happened, so of course I don't remember any of the specifics of that day. I mainly remember it due to the two pointless wars fought because of it and its effects on foreign policy to this day. Plutocow (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Of course there will always be a dumb and naive crowd. The History Channel didn't morph from "the all-Hitler channel" to "aliens and ghost shit" for no reason. But the dumb and naive are not "everyone". At any rate, as I mentioned, there also definitely is a difference between "in living memory" and "historical event". The History Channel's all-Hitler phase was probably heavily fueled by retired people who had formative memories of WWII in some way or another. Most of these folks are gone, and now WWII events are by and large just a note in the history books. It's different. Same with the KKK, who though they still exist haven't committed a lynching that I know of since 1981, and are relatively minor in the modern sea of the openly racist side of the Internet (apparently there's a loose tie of the KKK to Stormfront, though, so there's that) But remembered only in history is not the same as forgotten. Plus, many people in their 30s or older now probably do remember something about the events of 9/11 (I certainly do). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 11 years old, my second proper school day, they called an assembly to tell us about the twin towers; learned about the others on the car ride back home. Even from here you could see the smoke along the coast. I don't know the situation elsewhere, but here people still very much actively talk about it; the younger kids around here all have a basic understanding of the day itself, obviously wouldn't expect them to know much more. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 20:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I also remember being weirded out by the Newspeak and propaganda such as "religion of peace". I understand why it was done, Al Qaeda was not the same as the Muslims in our school.  It was an absolute travesty the dirty looks they got, or the hate crimes committed against hundreds of Muslims around the country.  It just... rubbed my the wrong way for some reason.
 * I also remember saying some stupid shit back then such as "close all borders, no more immigration for now". But I was a bit of a twat as a teen.  Still am in some sense...  20:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 9/11 was a traumatic event for everybody old enough to remember it. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by comparing it to other traumatic events that arguably still do get revisited (although I'll admit the long term effects of white supremacist terrorism do get glossed over some, despite the efforts of some in the media to explore stuff like that one race riot in Oklahoma)-Hastur! (talk)  23:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Did you just imply that ISIS conducted the 9/11 attacks? 23:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You seem to be harbouring an unstated premise: that in order for something to be historically significant it must leave a “large trail of blood” in its wake; and because ISIS and the KKK have both left “large trails of blood” behind them and yet are forgotten by some people, then they are not historically significant. Thus you inferred that on the basis of anecdotal evidence, and a false equivalence between ISIS, the KKK and the events of 9/11, that 9/11 is not historically significant.
 * I was three years old when 9/11 happened, so clearly I don’t remember the event itself, but I can assure you that there are plenty of people my age who appreciate the huge ramifications of 9/11 and have seen documentaries and tv specials on the horrific events of that day. The fact that you think ISIS were involved in 9/11 demonstrates a disturbing level of ignorance. Leucippus Salva veritate 00:19, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, not that this is an argument for how things progressed after September 11, I'm glad bin Laden at least got what was coming to him. Shot dead and tossed into the ocean (with a proper burial at sea), so there can't be a twisted pilgrimage site, with the embarrassment of having his massive porn collection come out just for a little extra scorn. If ever someone deserved one between the eyes, that was it. And say what you will about the Freedom Tower, it is a pretty impressive structure (I've been to the top of the Empire State Building, last time I was down there I'd have gone to the top of that if it wasn't a really foggy day) and basically a giant middle finger (or a thumbs up in the Arab world), I'll take what I can get. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 01:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not really; the new tower is still shorter than the twin towers. Remember, in 1971 not only those towers were the tallest buildings in the world, there were TWO of them.  That sent the clear message that not only did we build the best, we doubled it.  Numerous times throughout history we built the tallest structure in the world, heck from 1899 until 1973 all the world's tallest buildings were in NYC alone, whereafter that title moved to Chicago for a quarter century and only in 1998 did the title move outside the US.  Even so, every nation sent their people to the UN building in Manhattan where they got to see the economic might that was the US.  Now, though, it doesn't matter, the tallest building belongs to the utterly hideous Burj Khalifa in Dubai which is literally twice as high as the towers were, in spite of literally being built on sand, in a city that has as much economic stability as bitcoin.  01:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean, it's not mind-blowing or anything, but it's a bit more impressive in person and does stick out. And it's definitely not as hard on the eyes as the utter monstrosity that is the Burj Khalifa; I wish I could do enough PCP to make that look good. At least there's something there, and its current height has some significance. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 02:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * i feel it fair to mention amidst this little display of god bless america, that the twin towers were indeed fugly, more so than any building built by arabsAMassiveGay (talk) 09:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What fucking retards don't know about the KKK? 03:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

"I mean for real, Isis left a large trail of blood behind them" So everyone is just going to ignore the factually wrong statement here of claiming that 9/11 was orchestrated by an Islamic fundamentalist group that didn't exist at the time? Everyone is just going to gloss over this massive inaccuracy? Seriously? 04:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ISIS was an offshoot of Al-Qaeda, founded by people who had joined because Al-Qaeda pulled off 9/11. Still a dumb statement; the details matter.  04:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Technically correct ("the best kind of correct"). But still, it does seem like the OP was engaging in a little bit of psychological projection by not even getting the basic name of the terrorist group right. Those who lived through that era know how Al-Qaeda was hammered into the American public as justification for both Iraq and Afghanistan.
 * Now, if I wanted to pick something from that time that for many Americans (bar those with decent memories), the subject has sort of faded away? I would pick PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 04:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Isis is a splinter group from Al-Qaeda and their name is far easier to remember than that of Al-Qaeda. Does it really matter though since they're almost identical? The main difference between the two was their leadership, Osama Bin Laden controls Al-Qaeda, whereas the leader of Isis is someone else, can't remember the name as it's long as hell. 09:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * was the point of this whole thread just to show what a dumbfuck you are? good work there in that case. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:50, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't say I disagree with the above. From start to finish, it's been like someone's just crowing cawing for attention. Kntai (talk) 09:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Does it matter that you and Donald Trump are both morons? If I accuse you of Trump's crimes, with the potential for people to act on those assumptions, does it really matter that you are in fact two different people? (Hint, of course it bloody well matters!) 11:44, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Further, Al-Quaeda has actually fought ISIS on several occasions. FURTHER, Bin Laden controls nothing since he's fucking dead. Thank you for confirming that you are in fact a literal child by the way. 11:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I know the dude's dead, why the hell can't you tell that I don't structure my sentences very well when I speak, you jackass. And don't ever compare me to Trump again, how would you feel if I compared you to Stalin, you commie bitch. 12:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You both say stupid shit, and again, does it matter that you are in fact two separate people? You asked a question, I'm answering it. 12:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, I don't support border control/building dumb walls, or oppose the administration of the SARS cov 2 vaccine + the mask mandate. You do support Communism though. 13:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You keep trying to pivot for some reason. Does it matter that you and Trump both say stupid shit? Should I claim that you are both in fact the same person by shared traits alone? 14:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Transchicken, rationalwiki may have a more laxed attitude towards people referring to "fucking this" or "you blab stupid crap" but not towards direct insults. "You commie bitch" is a direct insult and a user was recently blocked for repeated similar incivility. Considering how new you are to the site, the tolerance threshold for personal insults will be low. Shabi DOO  16:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You're speaking about Unclescrooge who got blocked for making dumb trolling posts about gender. Most Neocons' humor is limited to that and that only. If you're speaking of Machina, he was uncivil for several days before he became blocked - And for the record, mocking Machina is not ableist. I recall Grammar Commie acting very uncivil too throughout the site's history. 17:28, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You keep trying to pivot for some reason. Does it matter that you and Trump both say stupid shit? Should I claim that you are both in fact the same person by shared traits alone? 18:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I am referring to multiple other users who were blocked before your time and/or before your recent spate of activity. Multiple direct insults like "you commie bitch" will eventually get you blocked. Based on your general lack of constructive edits so far minus a few corrects, a reference and one new entry on the TERF glossary (thanks for those by the way), I can assure you that more direct personal insults will get you blocked sooner rather than later. Shabi  DOO  18:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming that the fact that TransChicken has added a dishonest summery of this exchange to their self awards list means that they are bowing out of this exchange. I really don't care if TransChicken insults me.  12:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I admire your enduring patience in engaging with these morons. Over the course of my time here, I’ve seen you uphold standards of reason and scepticism that this site was designed for.
 * With regards to TransChicken they seem to be, amongst other things, committing the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi: they seem to think that by inferring a conclusion about ISIS, that they have also inferred a conclusion about Al-Qaeda. Aside from that there argument is insultingly stupid i.e. when they use this premise “ISIS seem almost identical to Al-Qaeda” and this premise “ISIS as a name is easier to remember than Al-Qaeda”a basis for inferring a conclusion about 9/11. This kind of thoughtlessness should be reserved for a different website. Leucippus Salva veritate 16:39, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Barbarossa
Perhaps a better comparison than the KKK: a far more devastating event is turning 80: the Operation Barbarossa. The turned 80 only three days ago. As far as I know, the Russians still remember it very well. GeeJayK (talk) 03:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thats hardly fair conmparison at all. most of europe was already at war this point, most of europe already overrun by the nazis. meanwhile china was already in a fight for its life with japanese. as for the us, pretty sure pearl harbour has more resonance for americans than barbarossa. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * and barbarossa didnt seemingly come out of nowhere like 9/11 appeared to AMassiveGay (talk) 09:37, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It wasn't a terror attack. It was Germany attacking USSR with Finland teaming up on it. It wasn't just another day in NYC with no threat of a powerful nation going about with their machinations around spheres of influence. While Stalin might have been in disbelief over Germany attacking the USSR, it's not remotely the same. Kntai (talk) 09:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Back to 9/11
9/11 was a traumatic experience for the United States and it has had very far reaching implications for the world and I don't see any reason for "not caring" about a traumatic experience or high level global event for any country. That isn't the same thing as saying that the event doesn't occupy your attention or thoughts as it does for others. Just because other countries experience horrors, and just because America's foreign policy up to the events of 9/11 were not the most praiseworthy, does not make the suffering that came from it any less "worthy of caring about". It's one thing to be underwhelmed if a topic is frequently brought up again and again. It is another thing to completely stop caring about an event where people suffered and a nation was traumatised. Shabi DOO  10:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC) This is certainly worth a watch. Leucippus Salva veritate 15:16, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

The nature of the worst leaders, and moralism vs. naturalism
Above there is now a fairly moralistic debate over how horrible Trump was vs. wasn't, with some claiming that this or that position is unreasonable on subjective grounds. There is also a different kind of possible discussion. Putting aside the question of moralistically judged "wickedness" for a moment, it seems some individuals are simply wired to manipulate and exploit, and to lack positive behavioral traits of character. There was the input from psychologists who found that Trump had strong narcissistic or even psychopathic traits and who made that clear earlier on, and related research, as in that of Bob Altemeyer on authoritarian followers and the movement surrounding Trump. That's a different type of anti-Trump position, though similar in viewing Trump as mainly simply bad from the start and categorically.

This in turn reminds me of the stuff I've written about in my essay on Political Ponerology, the book by A. Lobaczewski on forbidden Soviet research he was involved in which diagnosed the system and its key influential characters at various levels. There's a part in that book on political "spellbinders" as a broad personality category, which I've not written about yet, but which seems to fit the recent history of Trump perfectly. Such individuals have a talent for reaching a smaller segment of people with a strength of influence running counter to critical sense, to the extent that it seems like that group falls under a spell, pulled away from the reality understood by the rest. But the spellbinders always end up disappointed by not getting the full ultimate traction they feel the world owes them. Such "spellbinders" are always pathological people, according to Lobaczewski, and their main distinguishing trait is not the charisma, but rather a lack of self-questioning and a treating of personal subjective criteria as objective and infallible to an extent that has crossed all boundaries of healthy personality variation.

Lobaczewski describes the polarization taking place when a spellbinder gains a following. The spellbinder uses manipulative ad-hoc moralism among other tactics to sway and divide people around the self of the spellbinder. Paranoid outbursts against opponents is one of several typical patterns. The message tends to be instinctively offensive to many, while a smaller portion of people is attracted. The camps for and against the person and message end up both having moralistically charged attitudes, and as tensions mount, the critics sometimes feel a sense of helplessness regarding the basis of their criticism, since their criteria, too, are also primarily moral and almost instinctive rather than oriented in hard fact and logic.

To avoid such messes, societies need to be prepared beforehand through science, specifically regarding psychology and its variations, so that they have a plain fact-based approach to discerning healthy from unhealthy, and can counter the worst manipulators and their influence on time and systematically. The "common sense approach", by contrast, waxes and wanes in its viability repeatedly as cultural currents form generation after generation with different mentalities, and history shows how insufficient it is. Only great scientific progress, and society embracing it, can offer a way out of history simply repeating regardless of how much historical data about horrible dynamics is gathered over centuries and even millennia.

Thoughts on this related, but subtly different topic?

I'm also re-considering making that essay a mainspace article, as I mentioned earlier on its talk page. No responses there, might as well ask here. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Perhaps others aren't interested, or perhaps I made "the topic" too broad and diffuse. The latter can happen when I write a lot all at once. Here's a short list of clear topics I've now extracted that ended up baked into my thinking:
 * The uselessness or counter-productiveness of moralistically charged debate in any and all areas in which clarity can be achieved by clarifying facts, definitions, and conclusions that follow. When people start from a more fact-oriented mentality and then together slide into a charged debate, this is a regression in the intellectual level. Pop-culture often encourages such, but intellectual striving must oppose it in a more cool-headed way or derail and render itself useless. Things tied to politics are not exceptions. Political polarization in a society is often a lot like an anti-intellectual infectious disease.
 * Given that there is knowledge about problematic patterns of a psychological kind, and their role in politics, how should society deal with that? Should, ideally, a clear-cut system screen out the psychologically unfit from positions of power, as early as possible in the process based on clear evidence? I think so.
 * How about covering this book, Political Ponerology, in mainspace? The main reason I made it an essay earlier is that I felt unsure, because earlier, people who had not read the book dismissed it by association with its super-cranky editor (footnote inserter) and publisher come cult leader. Much the same on Wikipedia, where it's been too notable to delete. I think I've demonstrated that the two are very different in their natures. Anyway, I'll interpret silence as "what the hell, I'll give it a go when I think it's more complete".
 * --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 04:01, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

What Fallacy Is This (Again)?
"What if *EVENT X* doesn't happen (therefore it won't happen)?" &#39;&#39;NiciesMan&#39;&#39; (talk) 02:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)NiciesMan
 * Hasty generalization depending on the strength of the conclusion drawn from the evidence available. Not necessarily fallacious as a statistical prediction. There are more specific terms for particular forms of this reasoning. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 02:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

The post-Covid economy
As of late, I have been thinking about how billionaires made more billions during the early (and one can assume middle and late) covid event, using this event to make more money and steal from the treasury again. My big question is: how much have said billionaires stolen since the beginning of covid? More then 2008, and if so, how much more? An Advocate (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Stolen" has a particular meaning in economic and legal contexts. I think you're metaphorically using terminology associated with theft to invoke moral condemnation, but that leaves the question of what specifically you're referring to. Without that information, your question isn't particularly meaningful. As for wealth divergence, that's a much more fundamental problem than "rich people steal their wealth from poor people or public funds" since it emerges on its own in any economic system subject to chance or in which people can freely conduct trade, unless policies are in place specifically to prevent it. 96.60.168.60 (talk) 02:47, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Define "stolen".  Because farmers "stole" all that wealth from people who traded items for food, after all, people need food. 03:31, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This is Advocate (from his tablet), I want to know how much money has been made from this pandemic, exactly. How much have mask providers made (when they should be freely available since you need them to enter stores were I live) how much the vaccine producers made (government contracts? New subsidies to develop the vaccine?) How much the food producers were/are raking in with the panic, along with toilet paper. Drug companies (which definitely made BANK), fairly obvious, I could go on forever. This is more specific, since that is what I think you asked. I used stolen because I think it conveys my emotions on the matter, and I never asked how much small farmers “stole”, I am talking about agribusiness billionaires, which I clearly asked for how much BILLIONAIRES stole. Don’t start hairsplitting about irrelevant shit like the definition of “stole”, making unnecessary money (small farmers probably are not as financially prosperous as billionaires) from disaster which makes many people’s lives very hard is objectively criminal to anyone sensible. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 96.230.207.83 / talk
 * In a capitalist economy business exist to make money. I would say that the vast majority of business lost money during the pandemic - though some others made lots. Spending has also dropped on expensive things like holidays so some individuals have saved money too. But others have been unemployed and have lost money.  In more socialist-leaning European countries some of the worst excesses of the capitalist system may have been ameliorated, at least compared to the US.
 * But trying to reduce the complexities of the impact of Covid on different economies to "Which billionaires made the most money?" may risk oversimplifying the thing.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:10, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not simplifying anything, you are overcomplicating it. I never asked for the complexities, I asked how much theft had taken place while we were focused on covid. If you are not going to answer the question, don't write at all. An Advocate (talk) 18:32, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So, you're saying that people stole money because they provided the tools we used to fight the pandemic? What's you definition of theft? Also, I don't know where you live, but I bet that people that can't afford masks can get them for free, unless it's a really isolated place. GeeJayK (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Cloth masks are like $5, if you don't have people simply giving them away. As for vaccines, the companies have been getting $50 in revenue per vaccine, which is not much all things considered.  19:07, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * if money is tight you can make your own mask from an old tshirt AMassiveGay (talk) 19:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean, this whole argument comes across as a 14 year old whining about how the world doesn't work the way they think it should work. 19:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

{od}} Alright, forget the definition of "stealing" or my 14-year oldness. Forget I ever said that. Now that you have done that... Answer the fucking question, or don't speak at all. An Advocate (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Your question is too simplistic. Zoom for instance did very well out of the pandemic as telework dramatically increased and their product became one of the dominant players in cloud based video conferences. Did they "steal" money? Well, they IPOed in 2019, and were around for several years before that. I also understand that many of Zoom's engineers came from Cisco's WebEx (a competing and, from personal experience, much shittier product), which has been around since the dotcom days (2000s). So it's not like they greedily created something to exploit a pandemic. Instead, their product (which has been around for a while) just all of a sudden became in high demand due to circumstances, and they (along with Webex and Microsoft Teams etc.) happened to benefit. I would say they more got lucky, which is a fairly common thing in the business world.
 * Even facial masks are in this category. Just Googling, seems like the market of disposable face masks roughly doubled. In other words, it didn't go from zero to full speed ahead. Since bulk disposable face masks are a solved problem manufacturing wise (automated machines for mass-churning out masks are readily available) and some degree of public mask culture actually existed before COVID-19 (in Asia for quite some time it has been customary for people who were sick, or even other reasons, to wear masks), and filtration products were already an established thing in medical industries and elsewhere, you have a patchwork of companies making products. There is no one company that is going to gain billions. Hell, if you take it to cloth, it's easy to find homemade. If you care about the capitalism of this matter, just find a local artist that is good with cloth and who has pivoted to making cloth facial masks. (Or hell if you can't find one (!), just go to Etsy or something. Capitalism isn't all about tycoons.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:06, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you, I was a but too aggressive in my original post, so sorry about that. An Advocate (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC)"Answer the fucking question, or don't speak at all". Nobody here is obliged to do anything you so petulantly demand.  If you wish do do some economic calculations then go ahead and do them yourself. Anyone is fully in their rights to respond in any way they see fit.  Stamping your foot on the floor and shouting at people is not an endearing quality.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I was writing a respone to PGGB, and for him I would like to know how much wealth had been vaccumed up to the upper classes during covid (I am certain it makes 2008 look like a 7/11 robbery). As for Bob, I apologized, but it is very frustrating when you ask a question that seems clear to you and people do not answer it. An Advocate (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As I said - nobody is obliged to answer or even acknowledge your questions. And if they do respond, they may do so in any manner they see fit.  Complaining and swearing about it is not good practice Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:33, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Because your question isn't actually all that clear? 20:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's easy enough to Google articles on COVID-19 and inequality / poverty, even though it is a bit early to see the full impact and have hard numbers. In the US, for instance, due to stimulus, poverty levels actually decreased between 2018 and 2021, but the general picture seems to be that, in high income nations (thanks to asset prices like housing and equities increasing) inequality overall has increased. The problem actually is probably be worse in lower income nations where the pandemic probably will send a fair bit of people into extreme poverty. If you focus on billionaires alone, yes, COVID-19 made some billionaires but also COVID-19 unmade some billionaires. Some of the ones that became billionaires were taking some huge risks (as Moderna and other biotech startups were) so to me it's a little more complicated than a money all evil thing. IMHO you do want to encourage these sort of business risk taking/reward system. But at the same time you want to make sure that solid safety net exists. COVID relief even in the normally stingy United States wasn't terrible, but overall the US still could improve in this department. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:53, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, PGGB, for trying to give a satisfactory answer. I am going to do some digging myself for some time. Thank you. An Advocate (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, another flood coming to the United States
Tropical Storm Nicholas formed, Texas in path. As if we needed another flood.Andrew5 (talk) 16:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just give mother nature a snickers bar. That is how we solve the issue. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Pour Pepsi into the Caribbean Sea. That should fix it! LongStylus (talk) 22:10, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just god's righteous punishment for Texas' restricting abortions - god doesn't actually have any problems killing unborn children like it did with with Noah's flood. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 23:21, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess your right, Texas is crazy and deserves to need punish. As for the pepsi idea, it wouldn't do enough at that level. Andrew5 (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Welp, looks like we aren't allowed in Texas
Texas has now made it illegal to "deplatform" people for "political" views. Meaning if someone wants to spout a bunch of nonsense here regarding abortion and evolution, we actually aren't allowed to ban them unless they actually break a non-political rule. So... not sure how this will be enforced. 21:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It'll sure be interesting to see how they expect this to hold under 1A. nfd (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Texas is getting crazier and crazier. I always knew it was worse then Georgia. Is it worse then Alabama?Andrew5 (talk) 21:32, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's like they imported all the Crazy from California... 21:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It only applies to websites with over 50 million users, so we should be safe for now... although the spambots are quickly inflating our user count. Plutocow (talk) 21:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it is practically pretty much limited to Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Else wise I was going to wonder how sites that ban anyone who isn't fundie-crazy (such as Conservapedia) would handle the news. At any rate, this shit bill means nothing (even aside from being a 1A violation) to be honest. Most major TOS agreements say nothing "political viewpoint". Instead, they are more about banning things like "incitement of violence", "fraud", "doxxing", "sexual exploitation", and the like. That some people see being banned for this this shit as "banned for being conservative" says a helluv a lot about the sorry state of American "conservatism" these days. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am an American and it is my God-given right to publically advocate for all of the terrorism I want. Somebody ought to lock up all the Commies for calling me "corncob" on Twitter nfd (talk) 21:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's always been against RW's ideals to ban people for having differing viewpoints-Hastur! (talk) 23:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, not quite. Viewpoint is pretty ambigious. In general, we don't ban for a viewpoint prima-facie (just saying "I'm conservative/christian/religious/cult member of the sacred Goat" isn't worthy of a ban, in no small part because these views all have nuanced versions that don't immediately default to "you're literally the worst person ever"). On the other hand, if you elaborate your viewpoint and it turns out to be a bunch of bigoted nonsense, that's when we slam the door. Neonazis are the one exception to that though. Neonazis will be banned with the most extreme prejudice possible. -- Techpriest (talk) 23:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If I recall, we ban Neonazis quickly because they are so subhuman that they lack the self-control to not rapidly degenerate to abusive, blockworthy behavior.-Hastur! (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * IIRC, we banned Nobs because he didn't condemn the Jan 6th traitors protestors. There was a lot of other stuff, but that seemed to be the final straw.  00:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was a stain on this website's reputation-Hastur! (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Weren't you opposed to the ban of Nathan Larson? Plutocow (talk) 05:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Why do you ask that question heavily implying he did? If he did, then post the evidence, I wanna see it. 09:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Does this mean that atheists can run for governor in Texas?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes Hastur, the ideology based entirely on reactionary gut feelings lack the self-control to not immediately devolve into blockworthy behavior. You were able to understand what I meant. As for nobs, really it was a cavalcade of things. He was able to get away with shit other people would have received sanctions over for years, mostly because nobs knew how to avoid drawing the ire from the mob; he never sought out conflicts, kept to his talkpage and in general when he did veer out into other pages, he usually ended up being not even wrong but also 100% earnestly arguing his loopy takes. What ultimately did his tenure on RW in was a combination of open flirtation with Michael Flynn's election conspiracies on our site, an earlier block over his bigotry, off-site endorsing of the capitol riot (on conservapedia) and a few editors on this site breaking policy to block him and subsequently force a coop case. -- Techpriest (talk) 15:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Here is the evidence that Hastur (formerly known as User:Brxbrx, or Brx in the vote) did indeed oppose banning Nathan Larson (account name User:Tisane): RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive28. It may surprise some people that the vote was not more lopsided in favor of banning (30 to 16), but RW was different then in 2012. In Hastur's defense, he did say this in his vote, "Tisane is a vile creep for writing that essay, and I wholeheartedly support its deletion, but a ban is not necessary. If he continues to harass people with his reprehensible views, then escalating warning bans should be the answer". Bongolian (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That ban vote is one reason why I tend to reject arguments that RW was so much better back in the day. Seriously, if we had the two-thirds rule back then, that pedo would not have been banned. Plutocow (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * But notice how there was 46 votes, whereas today you are lucky to get 20+ votes in a coop. We've had a lot of infighting which chased off otherwise productive users...  13:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "But notice" how less of our current users are willing to give platforms to pedophiles. Quality is better than quantity.-Flandres (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * We did have the 2/3 rule. We appear to simply have rounded up and nobody felt inclined to protest.  Yes, we had a more numerous, more engaged, and more productive editor base back then.  Not that it was perfect by any means,  as anybody perusing our archives could tell you.  I don't know that infighting is necessarily what drove people away.  While I wasn't there for it, as I understand it Gamergate drove off a lot of editors (fuzzy on the details but I've seen a good few references to it).  Then there's the fact that a lot of what our mission is about isn't really in the zeitgeist anymore.  New atheism is dead, making fun of creationists is dead, Conservapedia has lost its novelty, and debunking pseudoscience doesn't seem to have its same appeal (and you would think it would with this pandemic).  The "explorations of authoritarianism" branch of our mission is the only one that seems to hold appeal to the masses, and even then its become a vehicle for ideologues to try to turn the wiki into something it isn't.
 * As for why I voted against banning Tisane? If I recall at that time he was posing as a polite intellectual dissident.  The depth of his depravity was not yet known.  Many of us deemed it an acceptable solution to merely delete his essay (some users actually engaged him on it and debated him, if I recall correctly).  He exceeded tolerance for wrongthink but mere dissent was not a bannable offense.  If I knew then what I know now I would not have been so patient.  Tisane was a practicing pedophile.  And I don't mean in abstraction.  He's hurt children.  He's done other terrible things, but that on its own is sufficient reason to remove him from the site.-Hastur! (talk)  03:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow - when did the site reach 50 million users??!! :O Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 22:04, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

A load of bollocks. Pay no attention to it.
Hi, I am a Conservapedian, and Ken was bragging about being made a RationalWiki sysop in a private Discord server the other day. I just though you might like to know. &mdash; Unsigned, by: RationalConservapedian / talk / contribs
 * Goody for him. 00:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Why did you collapse this discussion just because I am a Conservapedian? Maybe this site is as tyranically biased as Ken says it is.
 * Many RW admins are literally fascists! Right now they're trying to ban my Uncle Scrooge for doing nothing wrong!!! If his blood pressure keeps boiling, he'll start bonking his head against the ceiling and lower my wages to only ten cents an hour!!!! Donald F. Duck (talk) 01:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You said that right! You should join Conservapedia where the admins are much more fair. With mods like these, it's no wonder atheism is losing, but at least Ken's now on the team to set them straight!
 * That above comment is a sock of User:Unclescrooge, currently blocked for 7 days. It should be blocked, too, to match main. Andrew5 (talk) 01:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 'Creative misinterpretation' - 'being made a RationalWiki sysop in a private Discord server' is ambiguous (and does anyone care what happens in a private Discord server?) Anna Livia (talk) 18:33, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The passing of the quintessential comedians’ comedian
Norm was sui generis: not just an original comedian, but an original human being. One of the only comedians who was truly fearless. Like all the great comics, he could make you laugh at things you’d never entertain normally. Dave Baddiel provides a wonderful obituary here. Here’s a touching clip of Norm foreshadowing (he was diagnosed with cancer at the time, but had kept it a secret) his own battle with cancer, and reflecting on the general public’s perception of the disease. Norm went out with dignity, stoicism and integrity—reminds me of Hume and Hitchens. Requiescat in pace. Leucippus Salva veritate 17:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC) https://youtu.be/WWpRCN46mi8

An absolutely beautiful song and music video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL2ZwXj1tXM

Never Too Late by Three Day's Grace is a great rock song about helping someone attempting to commit suicide. Perfect song for those in a dark place and telling them that there are caring people willing to help you. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 17:45, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

A rick astley troll link in 2021?!
Watch it, I dare you.Andrew5 (talk) 18:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The video didn't even play when I clicked on your link lol, try again. 18:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Isn't that a sort of meta-troll in itself? Kencolt (talk) 21:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * We have transcended the Rickroll. Probliknaut (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Since we are all sharing music and music videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ejga4kJUts

A powerful reminder of The Troubles and war in general. Probliknaut (talk) 21:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolute tune. - Rairyu75  ( Talk ) 22:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Since we are all sharing our favourite classic youtube videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xncCLKC7gY&ab_channel=matthewBlack

Shabi DOO  22:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I may have started a music flood here. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 23:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah u did. Though my rickroll was (somewhat) unrelated. Andrew5 (talk) 23:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

fuck it, i'm getting in on this
criminally underrated AMassiveGay (talk) 22:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

My favorite music livestream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj0Zs9GJqJ8 Andrew5 (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Space launch for civilizations 8:02 PM EDT today (00:02 UTC Sep 16)
30 mins to go. Andrew5 (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * https://youtu.be/iYCGriqdtWQ Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 02:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Project that I am thinking of doing
Specifically I mean doing an article on the Russian puppet state of South Ossetia. One of the many locations illegally occupied by the Russian Federation. Legally part of the nation of Georgia (not the US state), the ethnic group known as the Ossetians declared independence from Georgia back in 1992. The Ossetians after declaring independence, the Ossetians began a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. Russia happily recognized this break away state and essentially uses it as a puppet in the region.

Another note- South Ossetia recognized the "independence" of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, the Donetsk People's Republic, the Luhansk People's Republic, Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic/Transnistria and the Republic of Abkhazia. All of which are under illegal military occupation. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 01:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Could fall into an overall article on Russian policy of dominating the near-abroad as part of Tzar Putin's re-establishment of the Russian Empire. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 02:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You might instead think about a single article on irredentist actions made by Russia in former Soviet republics: Georgia (South Ossetia), Moldavia (Transnistria), Ukraine (Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic, Luhansk People's Republic). These are all of a piece, created by Russia as stalemated 'forever wars' to weaken and destabilize former Soviet Republics. The book The Road to Unfreedom by Timothy Snyder puts these entities in context. Bongolian (talk) 06:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Article title ideas: Russian Irredentism and Russian Occupation of Eurasian Territories. Just brainstorming. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 'Eurasianism' is the Russian irredentist idea, that in its current form, opposes the existence of the European Union. Bongolian (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

A song for solace at the end of the day
IMO a mesmerising song. It never fails to bring me somewhere else. https://youtu.be/aVyattex0l8 Leucippus Salva veritate 19:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Listen to the whole album. Its even better. BeardOfZeus (talk) 06:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, cheers for the advice dude. I must get round to listening to the whole album. I mainly heard bits and pieces of John Martyn over the years on my father’s stereo (he was a big fan of Martyn’s music). “Small Hours” left a strong impression on me, it’s just incredibly beautiful, even by Martyn’s standards. Leucippus Sapere aude 17:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for introducing Martyn's music to me. Without you I wouldn't have listened to the One World Album. BeardOfZeus (talk) 03:53, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Glad you liked it! Take it easy. Leucippus Sapere aude 16:52, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

North Korea firing missiles
They're at it again. If I'm recalling correctly, the last time they did this was February (or around then). Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 03:49, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * At least this time they got them to fly. I can't help but root for them, especially knowing the likely fate of the engineers whose rockets failed. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 19:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Huh, they're improving. 20:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably not a good thing, considering how they're a volatile variable in one of the most intense political-military theatres on Earth. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 02:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If their rockets are good enough, maybe they can form a DPRK on the moon and emigrate there. --Annanoon (talk) 15:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I hate fireworks
I got neighbors who are still lighting off fireworks. It is doing wonders for my psychiatric symptoms and the landlord does nothing about it. Cops are useless as fuck considering that they are heavily corrupt. Fun times. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 00:56, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Fireworks for what event? 01:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The very unclassy folks around here will hoop and holler and launch fireworks way past bed time over here, too, for at least a week before and after any firework-worthy holiday. I feel you. Probliknaut (talk) 01:53, 17 September 2021 (UTC)ă

There was no event, just obnoxious neighbors. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You can always throw a bucket of paint on their front door the next day every time they set off fireworks. Likely to make things worse, but it is an option. Shabi  DOO  13:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Having a quiet place to live in is a luxury in my area, especially with increasing housing costs. I understand your pain. LongStylus (talk) 14:39, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Are they renters in the same building as you? Go to the housing authority in your district, e.g., NYC's is located here.  In that example, you'd probably enter that your concern was "Fire Safety" located in the "Grounds".  Your neighbors are setting off FIREworks without being licensed, after all.
 * Your landlord will both hate and love you for it, even though it's all hidden. Hate, because hassle from the city.  Love, because then the landlord would have a much stronger case should those neighbors need to be evicted, and chances are if they are setting off fireworks at all hours of the night they are doing something else the landlord wants to get rid of them for.  15:14, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Parents of ROGD Kids webshite
Hey guys and gals, I created a new draft called Draft:Parents of ROGD Kids describing the webshite of the same name. When will this page be ready for prime time?? Bhp99 (talk) 15:14, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Question, is there a reason to have this as a full page? Right now it's just a stub that might belong more in the ROGD article itself. -- Techpriest (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

My horrible boss told me I'll go to hell...
...for not believing in her Chinese folk gods and having the audacity to say they don't exist. Spud (talk) 11:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Well, at least she was right about Hell existing. Morenmint (talk) 12:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah? Well you probably think she'll go to hell for not believing in Jeeeezus, don't you? Fuck off! Spud (talk) 12:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I think you may have mentioned your horrible boss before. To be honest, I didn't know there was a Chinese version of Hell. It's fortunate that threats of Hell are equably meaningless independent of the source. EDIT .. Well, that's a "surprise"  - it's just as barbarically improbable as the Christian one.  Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * When a coworker brings up God(s) or politics, I immediately change the topic to something embarrassingly personal and/or TMI, like my parents' deaths or my own recent medical issues. I then continue to discuss that topic, monologuing if they continue on the prior topic. Just steamroll the fuck out of them while staying polite. Most seem to now understand I have no desire to discuss these topics in the workplace. Good public speaking and a fearless glibness help here. Also, since this is your direct supervisor, pulling out your phone and politely ask them to repeat what they just said into you recording app may curtail further input on their end. Semipenultimate (talk) 17:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If that hell was real, we we all keep you company there. <3 LongStylus (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (speaking as someone who did burn stuff and incense for my grandpa as a Chinese folk ritual) She better stock up on if she wants to be proven correct. And maybe she'll leave some dumplings and apples behind, you know, if she's really a good person unlike you.  21:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Spud you’re going to hell because you won’t join the Support Chat with the rest of the Board members so we can schedule a new meeting! Save your soul, Spud! 23:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for giving me a much needed boot up the arse there. Hallelujah! I'm saved! I am now back on Discord (under my real name, which you might remember). Spud (talk) 06:11, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What about the belief in reincarnation?
 * Given how many deities there are (including those of Doggerland and other ancient populations) there must be many different hells (and the Vikings would regard the 'all constantly singing the praises of the Christian god as some version of hell).
 * 'My belief systems encourages me to be polite about other people's faiths and to be courteous and helpful in general to all.' will cover many situations. Anna Livia (talk) 09:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Chinese (Buddhist) Hell can be fun… at least for visitors. Bongolian (talk) 21:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don’t envy your position. If you don’t mind my asking: is this the first time you’ve told your boss you’re a nonbeliever? Leucippus Salva veritate 21:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

No, Far from it. It's also not the first or even the second time she's told me the gods can see me and I've retorted with, "They don't exist!"

I've never made any secret about my views on religion from my bosses. When I first came to Taiwan to teach at my current school, they asked me if I wanted to go to church on Christmas Day. I said no and I explained why.

One day, I found out that my school had a copy of the book The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible on display. I begged my bosses to take the book intended to fill kids; heads with pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical nonsense off their shelves. In spite of the fact that I'd earlier told them about Young Earth Creationism and they'd laughed at how ridiculous it was, they refused. I offered to buy it from them. They refused. So I stole it, took it home and destroyed it. They never missed it. A few months later, I found out that the book they'd had on display since I came there, Dinosaurs by Design by Duane Gish was not, as I had always assumed, a book about making models. I took that home and destroyed it too.

A few years ago, I was told I might be having one-to-one lessons with a man who was being sent to the West as a Buddhist missionary. I made it clear I would only be teaching him under protest because I didn't want to help with the spreading of any religion. My stupid male boss even made me look online to see if there are any English textbooks specifically designed for Buddhist missionaries. Of course, there aren't. I'm happy to say those lessons never happened.

Long term users may remember the adult woman student who made me wear my wizard costume for our one-to-one lesson on Halloween 2019. We were reading a simplified version of Anne of Green Gables. The word "Sunday school" came up and I had to explain what that meant. She asked if I'd ever been to Sunday school and what my religious beliefs were. At that point, my horrible boss was lurking in the doorway. I said, "I'm a secular humanist. I don't believe in God", my horrible boss laughed at that, "I believe in people. I believe we only have one life and we should try to be good to other people while we're here." My horrible boss was smirking because I have not gone out of my way to be good to her. For her benefit, I added, "But if someone isn't nice to me, I don't have to be nice to them because nothing bad is going to happen to me after I die."

So that's the complete history. It struck me as funny that within a month of certain Christian trolls here telling me that I, and other RationalWiki editors, will go to hell, someone from another religion said the same thing to me in real life. And it really struck me as odd that of all the nasty, personal things she could say to me she chose that. Because none of the other white teachers from Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia who've worked at the school and she now thinks are great (although she hated them while they were here) believed in those Chinese folk gods either. And none of her many British friends she supposedly has and keeps going on about would believe in those gods. Does she believe they're going to hell too? Maybe she thinks it's OK to have any theistic religion. I'm probably overanalyzing now. She just wanted to say something nasty and personal to me, like she has done many times before. Spud (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It’s refreshing to see someone as principled, and empathetic, as you are towards your students’ welfare. You’ve had to make personal sacrifices (stealing those books, risking the scorn and disapproval of your religious colleagues) that have made your job far from easy. Weaker individuals (the majority of us) would’ve crumbled at the prospect of having the courage of their convictions in the face of zealous in-group pressures. I think your boss, quite simply, fears someone who isn’t a pushover, who won’t dance to her tune, and as a consequence she has had to resort to petty, pathetic intimidation-tactics. Furthermore, your boss clearly intends to provoke a pronounced reaction in you, so don’t give her her what she wants. Nevertheless, surely this language could be considered bullying behaviour, I don’t know what the situation with unions is like in Taiwan, but have you considered consulting a teacher’s union? I wish your boss wasn’t such a bigot, and yet, I trust that there are far-more rewarding moments that crowd-out those fleeting skirmishes with your boss; you seem to have been able to endure admirably over the years—organising pockets of resistance. To end on a more humours note: you should accuse your boss of blasphemy, I’m certain the parent-teacher tribunal will push for the Wicker woman … then again, saner heads have prevailed.  Leucippus Salva veritate 19:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hell certainly exists Spud and that hell is dealing with people who are convinced that you will go to fictional hell. I'm sorry you have a nightmare boss. Is it that you are in Taiwan specifically for that job and cannot move to another one or are you attached to the kids? Shabi  DOO  22:32, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oui. L'enfer c'est les autres.


 * Yes, on the whole, I still enjoy my job. But I can't stay in it much longer. I really haven't stayed in it out of choice for the last 18 months. Bloody worldwide pandemic! And the reason I'm still in it is because my health insurance is tied to my job and my getting the second dose of the Covid vaccine is tied to my health insurance.


 * My boss certainly is a bully. She's tried to gaslight me several times. I now call her out on that every time she tries. And yeah, she's constantly trying to make me angry and I really shouldn't allow her to. Just because she's incapable of being professional doesn't me I can't be.


 * interestingly, my bosses' nephew (a lovely chap) said that his aunt and uncle respected me because I didn't always automatically go along with whatever they said and I was prepared to say no to them. And there's a funny thing. His mother, my horrible boss' sister, is the sweetest person I've ever met. She's just pure love. The exact opposite of her sister. Spud (talk) 12:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think, and hope, I understand your position. My mother was a teacher. She definitely experienced the lopsided trade-offs between the pros of—interacting with and witnessing people learn, and the cons of—lesson planning, school politics, and unpleasant bosses. I’m truly sorry that the pandemic left you in a Catch-22 compromise with your health-insurance and all … I imagine your situation must feel overwhelming at times, and if that’s true, I think it’s worth on a daily basis reminding yourself of how difficult situations pass, overwhelming emotions are fleeting, and even in discomfort one can find moments of joy that make the frustration and anxiety and fatigue fade away e.g. a moment of laughter or a good meal with an intimate or a friend. Moreover, having a contingency plan for leaving your current job will (I think) be helpful, you could then see clear trajectories through that fuzzy ring called “the future”.
 * R.e. Your boss: pathetic, inexcusable behaviour. You’ll look forward to the day when she’s just a story you can retell to friends.
 * I think people will always respect someone who has the integrity and assertiveness to be confident in their opinions and beliefs. I bet your bosses’ sister makes you curious of where it went wrong with your boss? Leucippus Salva veritate 01:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * All very true. Apart from the feeling overwhelmed at times part, thankfully. Spud (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Thats crazy brother. I hope your situation improves! TheNFLGuy (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsqYSA_hEns 05:42, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a page here?
Found a dead link. Jake Holmes''yell at me 14:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Huh, you learn something every day. Would have figured this for a support group type thing for clergy who’ve lost their faith and livelihood, but "secular clergy" apparently refers to priests who aren’t part of a monastic order like the Jesuits, the Dominicans, the Franciscans, what have you. I could see a need for such a thing. Can also see why this isn’t even a stub on RW. Did it get purged for that reason? Also, you should really sign your edits here. I think not doing so is how you get things deleted/invoke the old gods. Artificius (talk) 16:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's some 2010 fluff that in 2017 got binned for being not even "good enough for Uncyclopedia". Guess whatever page this was found on didn't update accordingly. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Signed. Thanks for mentioning that, setting up the photo correctly distracted me and I forgot to. Jake Holmes''yell at me 14:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I understamd. I'm not bold enough to fake some shit.  But, I dig in this shi, I nee in this shi, mumble make a real prob,  I mean I believe in this shit, if I'm an untenable, I'm left alone with people who.... help me 194.150.167.88 (talk) 05:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sometimes it is so impressive and big https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkHIL9skMnU how could  you not love it?  194.150.167.88 (talk) 06:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Plutocow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjnFyk4Rmus

I don't have other options, I was supposed to have normal user permissions this hour and now it's to infinity, Gol Dernitt.. 06:38, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have been in trouble before. I know you're not supposed to edit userspace even if they are in bad faith.

I also don't think you're supposed to embed video, but maybe I just played a little fast and loose with that rule.

Anyway, still a Unicorns stan, not mad at anybody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPEzCkU2KKU 194.110.84.72 (talk) 06:52, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Do not embed music videos on the Saloon. It drags the system to a crawl when there are too many. Bongolian (talk) 07:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * SO I also cause blocks on all IPs when I log in, which has me a little. Which is kinda the opposite of how I thought it worked when passwords got compromised, like my IP wouldn't be spoofed, my username could. I got something back, I am asking for the username back.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvawBqax6Is  probably the wrong way to approach it.  Can I get some new rules to account creation?   I swear I do not spend time on the internet, but I do want to protect myself, so as to function as a drunken dump of empathy at best.  It's the only thing I can promise I'll do.  194.150.167.88 (talk) 04:40, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Record number of environmental activists murdered
This article surprised me quite a bit. I knew there would be some people murdered every year, as business/crime interests + interference = some murders. But the sheer number is disturbing. Shabi DOO  08:25, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * More then tornado deaths since 2016.Andrew5 (talk) 12:46, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This really makes me wonder how many of them were because of the Environmental activism, or if there were other reasons. Interesting article. It&#39;s Farmhand, BTW! (talk) 13:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not all that surprised by the numbers unfortunately. After watching the Virunga documentary years ago I would have thought it would be more globally. 13:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Would that number include the dumbass anti-nuclear activist who tied himself to traintracks and was hit by a train carrying nuclear waste (source:)? And then had the nerve to turn around and blame nuclear power for the death, because a train "should've" been able to stop in time in spite of freight trains needing miles to brake?  Granted that was from 2004, but still.  I'm all for peaceful protest, but what did they expect to happen; the train to jump off the tracks and spill waste everywhere?  14:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Googling random names from the articles, my impression is that a lot of them fall into two categories: A) land rights disputes (indigenous peoples / traditional subsistence farmers vs. "settlers", illegal loggers, and the like), and B) the later group attacking people who manage conservation areas. Unsurprisingly the worst areas are well known for either being hotspots of gun violence, or have authoritarian shithead leadership, or more frequently have both (south Central America, Columbia, and the Philippines are the worst countries per capita for this). This story honestly is not surprising once you figure out what they are meaning, unfortunately. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Given what you are describing, I'd expect the number to be higher. I'm wondering if assuming there's a lot of other forms of intimidation going on, e.g., beatings, mutilation, rapes, and the 227 are just the ones who weren't able to be intimidated in such a manner.  15:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe this is too cynical of me, but I find it not out the ordinary. In the US and Europe we get a really sterilized version of corporate human rights abuses.  But this pattern of "inconvenient third worlder threatens profit margins then is killed" isn't terribly new.  Environmental reasons for being an obstacle are new, but the number of dead union drive leaders in just Brazil over the past 20 years would make this number look small.
 * What's worse is that the local governments are often complicit at some level. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:29, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a pretty depressing number of murders.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Most of us Americans/Europeans vehemently opposed the offshoring of Western manufacturing, often for selfish reasons but we opposed it. Sure, the companies didn't mind cheap labor and lax environmental standards, but the labor and standards were deliberately sabotaged by those countries in order to encourage foreign investment.  In some cases such as China, they basically held the companies hostage if they didn't offshore some of those jobs to China.  So now they have environmental disasters, labor issues, and murdered activists?  These were the exact things we warned about, even if we only did so because we wanted to protect our jerbs.
 * As for what to do going forward, it varies by country. Brazil can handle its own affairs, sometimes the best solution is to butt out.  Instead we should be focusing on the DR Congo; with all the industrial might of the world, cobalt shouldn't be mined by hand, by children, to say nothing of every other mineral produced over there.  Help them modernize their medical programs, provide rudimentary education, and at least make a nominal effort to keep mining from poisoning the water supply.  15:00, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just checked pretty much every major media outlet here and I only found out about one union leader being murdered, one year ago. The largest Brazilian national trade union center is just a branch of the PT, the party that governed the country between 2003 and 2016, that doesn't really make sense. GeeJayK (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * do someting about the DR Congo? hahahaha what crazy talk. that would mean actually doing something about the DR congo. not going to happen. especially now after afghanistan AMassiveGay (talk) 09:24, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The DRC is not near any major country that's actively hostile to the US. The US failed in Iraq and Afghanistan because they were both neighboring countries that were actively and/or passively hostile to the US, to say nothing of virtually the entire Muslim world using those locations as an opportunity to get rid of their misfit rejects.  The US failed in Vietnam because China and Russia were pumping North Vietnam full of guns, bombs and military equipment.  Heck, the North Vietnamese had an air force with hundreds of planes.  The Chinese even sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers into North Vietnam to make sure the US wasn't going to "escalate" the war by invading the North, to say nothing about helping the North Vietnamese suppress any anti-Communist revolts, which meant the war couldn't be won.
 * But that's if we are talking invasions. I don't think we are, and if we were, I'd say fuck it, stay out of it.  It's more that the DRC needs the most basic of services such as water filtration and public health campaigns to eradicate Neglected Tropical Diseases and free condoms.  As far as I'm aware, they aren't in the middle of a civil war at the moment, though they just got out of one.  There's been some improvement in recent years, but the life expectancy is still less than 60, and their fertility rate is still something terrifying longterm.  In the 1950s there were something like 12 million people there, and today it's over 100 million.  I don't see how in 2075, DRC could support 500 million people.  At some point, it's going to collapse into a genocide on the scale the world has never seen before, and that's if the DRC doesn't decide that it needs to invade its neighbors.  13:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The DRC is one super-corrupt country with, even without war, and has a lot of rebel groups. Reportedly China's putting a lot of money into mining and other resource extraction shit over there. The chances of this being anything meaningful for the average citizen are very slim. It would be nice if resource extraction agreements worldwide had measures in place that resembled something like or even, but that sort of arrangement is rare. As far as environmentalism is concerned, unfortunately money talks. Compared to relatively safer neighbors like Rwanda and Uganda, my understanding is that eco-tourism is woefully underdeveloped in the DRC. In part due to unrest and instability, no duh there. It probably will remain that way until this improves. No one wants to holiday when there's a higher than normal chance you'll be the target of a violent crime. Unfortunately, it's not surprising that several victims on Global Witness's murdered environmentalist list were from the DRC (many from one single attack on Virunga National Park rangers). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:13, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Compared to relatively safer neighbors like Rwanda"
 * That phrase is terrifying. "Come to Hotel Rwanda!  Still better than our neighbors!"  14:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Heh, tis unfortunately true. Actually The Google suggests it's not too bad crime wise these days, ever since the authoritarian shithead FPR took over when they won the well publicized 1990s civil war. A bigger issue is that you'll be supporting said authoritarian shitheads. If you want to see mountain gorillas, though, you don't have much choice there. (Uganda's not-so-great regime is your "most free" nation of that lot.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So long as those authoritarian shitheads aren't causing a mess externally, it's actually not the worst case scenario to support them. After 30 years, improvements to the education system and public health might be at a point where human rights become a thing.  18:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting that Rwandan genocide was fairly short if extremely brutal period in that countries history. Just about 100 days with over million people killed. The African World Wars it sparked though lasted for years and took place primarily in Zaire/DRC. Arguably those wars still continue in parts of the eastern DRC. So yeah, today Rwanda is relatively safe and stable by comparison. 04:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * its worth noting the world looked the other way during the genocide and spent those 100 days thinking up creative ways to not say genocide. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely. I've been in the never again camp since, but unfortunately much of the world seems to have forgotten. 20:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't blame the US. The US still had a blood nose from Somalia, and simply can't afford to be involved in every conflict.  Defund the World Police!  20:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Blaming Brits mostly for Rwanda. Belgium carries a lions share of blame for DRC, though Brits helped fuck that up too. And obviously none of the western countries gave a shit. 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * According to the movie, we should also blame the Chinese for selling all those cheap machetes.
 * Honestly though, no one is responsible. And... everyone is responsible.  21:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * blaming the brits for rwanda? thats francophone africa. why not the french who actively aided abetted the genocide? the us and britain 'merely' complicit by their inaction. or blame the us for drc and having lumumba murderered. theres plenty of blame to go around. why look for a someone to blame when the whole of the developed world sat around with their thumbs up their arses.
 * its interesting that somalia is mentioned, considering the situation in afghanistan is probably having a more profound effect than somilia ever could. i wonder, if not afghanistan itself, where we will all be looking the other way next. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * rwanda happened at the same time as yugoslavia was breaking up and we was looking directly at the genocide going on there. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * we havent stopped looking away for the past 27 years AMassiveGay (talk) 22:09, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * really wish i had left this and not put all this to spin around in my head right before i try and get some sleep. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not true that the entire West ignored Rwanda or Yugoslavia. Canada and the Netherlands participated in both peace keeping missions with no political or economic advantage to doing so and in both cases were not permitted to intervene despite wanting to, or being forced to withdraw to protect their own people from very likely slaughter. I know that this is exceptional (and one can hardly argue they didn't make serious mistakes) but to say that nobody cared is extreme. Clearly there was not enough concern among Western countries to effectively stop genocides just as today there is not remotely enough concern to do anything to stop what is happening to the Uighurs in China, death camps in North Korea, the Australian refugee horror camps in the South Pacific and until recently the atrocious treatment of asylum seeker children in US detention centres (still pretty bad in some cases). There may be enough concern among citizens to support measures to put pressure on governments, but politicians have little to no incentive to follow through. People care, just not enough to support sufficient activism to help people vulnerable people who desperately need help. Congo (former Zaire) is a tragic failed state, the result of extreme brutal horrific colonialism, recent toxic government enablement by western interests as well as the terrors of disease, massive corruption, civil-war, child-soldiery, massive corruption, sectarianism, political-ideologies, massive corruption, religion/folk-beliefs, massive corruption, cultural clashes, AIDS, massive corruption and a whole bunch more of massive corruption. I honestly can imagine peace in the Middle East before Congo becomes a stable and non-dysfunctional democracy.  Shabi  DOO  22:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The Congo did have a chance until the CIA killed Patrice Lumumba. Honestly, the Congo will never be peaceful as long as transnational corporations still have a significant interest there. Plutocow (talk) 23:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure that 1) he was in the middle of committing ethnic cleansing in Congo, 2) his assassination was more the work of Belgium than the US, and 3) he was allying with the USSR. 02:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 1)thats at a best a half truth and massively over simplified assessment of what was going on at the time of the congo crisis and its build up 2)unvarnished bullshit 3) so what? the cold war was a succession of coups and counter coups and toppling of of unfavourable governments by or side of the other, in every case a a fucking travesty. its exactly so many parts of of the world are plagued by instability and atrocities, and the sores of colonialism and empire remain open and festering AMassiveGay (talk) 02:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thats all decolonialism really was. not so much about independence for the colonised, but the colonisers washing their hands of responsibility, but still pulling the strings and grabbing all they can, only with the us taking over from britain as the biggest player. you can look at the world today and for the vast majority of it you can almost tell at a glance who had empires and who was subjugated. its very recently with china in the ascendance do see that beginning to change - but only for a few nations.
 * colonialism and all that went with it are an indelible stain on humanityAMassiveGay (talk) 03:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Not sure why I misremembered Rwanda being a British colony. Instead of Belgian one, who once again turned their greed and racism to 11 and managed to set Hutus and Tutsis at each other. Didn't even need Leopold this time. 04:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * @AMG, The US has a looong history of being suckered into doing Europe's dirty work. It Was primarily Belgium that wanted Lumumba dead over the whole independence thing, the CIA got involved on their behalf and was part of planning the kidnapping, but it was the Belgian mercenaries who executed him.  And let's not forget that Mobutu was a lot more than a puppet for foreigners.  That absolutely doesn't make the US innocent, but the "blame the US" crowd seems to always ignore everyone else that's involved.  As for what the world would look like if Lumumba had lived, I don't know what it would've been but considering the end result I can't imagine it being much worse.  14:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * im not discounting the complicity of any other nation, but post war the us was/is the pre eminent superpower. as such it warrants the lion sharethe scrutiny and criticism of its actions - thats what comes with the territory of being a superpower. the idea that the us is some gullible dupe tricked into doing anything at all is frankly preposterous. you said yourself lumumba was chatting with the reds - thats all the prompting that us needed, all that it has ever needed. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * the scrutiny of its actions is particularly pertinent for a superpower that presents itself as the shining light on the hill, a beacon of democracy. its a tragedy for the world that it rarely has ever lived up to it. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Does the US live up to its ideals? Of course not.  DRC is just one of many, many horrible things the US has been involved in.  The question that should be asked is; "Relative to its power and influence, is the US a better or worse country compared to other world powers?".  On that metric, it's tough to find a major country that's been better.  Morally, the US is a Grey, perhaps even a darker shade of Grey, in an ocean of nothing but Black.
 * At its height, the British Empire was about the same as what the US is now, and the foreign policy was oh so much more brutal. Using India as an example, the foreign policy was "we will murder anyone who dares be a craftsman; you are nothing more than filthy slaves!", which is the reason why the Flag of India contains the spinning wheel.  All the European powers were just as bad when it came to Africa and South America, if not worse.  The US's foreign policy in places such as KSA, Kuwait, Venezuela and Iraq has consistently been "Keep the oil and other resources flowing, you can be filthy mass murderers, or rich oil-barons, or both, we don't give a shit, but fuck with the oil and we'll fuck with you".  There's a reason why a century ago, the House of Saud decided to side with the US instead of the UK.  There's the occasional feel-good story in the mix, such as rescuing the Bosniaks or establishing a functioning and incredibly wealthy democracy in Japan or South Korea, which simply doesn't exist for either the USSR or China. 16:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * i missed the part where any of those get a pass. also the british empire is dead and as been for nigh on 70 years. the ussr has been dead for 30. the us is still around, its still current. china is is just coming into its own, but as i said, no one is giving them a pass. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you didn't, but when other people refer to the US as "the worst", they explicitly give other countries a pass. When they refer to the US as "awful" without noting that the bar is so low that the US is comparatively better, they implicitly give them a pass.  16:25, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * i have never referred to the us as the 'worst' AMassiveGay (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * there is also little point in highlighting the ussr did worse in discussions where they have little relevance AMassiveGay (talk) 12:23, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * and much like the british empire, the us may be or have been the only show in town, it is/was the biggest show in town, with its reach and influence more widespread than any of the other players, no matter how much worse those players may be. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:35, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * believe it or not i do understand your point though. i kinda share the sentiment a little when i hear the the british and our empire was the worst of the worst, as if we were the only people with huge empires enslaving masses of people around the globe (see above where the brits are being blamed for the rwandan genocide). not going to defend the british empire mind, certainly not when so many people in britain remain at best ignorant of its role in making britian what it is, its evils, or the fact than it is even dead, and we should move on from those days and not look back with rose tinted glasses (thanks brexit for setting us back on that score). it was the biggest show in town when it was alive and kicking and i cant hide behind the fact the rest of europe were as big a bunch of cunts as we were because of that. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:46, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

So epik got hacked
This will likely be interesting. If anyone's feeling ready for drafting an article on these guys, you'll probably get tons of references in the next few days. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Separately the Texas GOP website also got hacked on Saturday by a claimed Anonymous, and, as captured by this NSFW archive.org entry, was replaced with links to donate to Planned Parenthood, references to and, and some old school memes like Rickrolling, mudkips, and goat.se. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:47, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Same guys from what I can tell. Also might be more related than you think, the texan gop site was uh... hosted by Epik LOL. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ARS is reporting on it already. The company seems to be fucked and Rob Monster (owner of Epik) is putting his head in the sand. This company is gonna burn down. Everything is public except for credit card data. EVERYTHING. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I knew this was going to happen. Little kids with too much time were eventually going to hack Epik as it hosts a lot of unsavory websites. Those Neocons are too dimwitted to actually find a host they can trust that isn't Epik, no, instead of that they all conglomerate over the same guys, and when the shit hits the fan, they'll have nowhere to hide. 18:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Eh... I mean, no? Usually we don't see registrars getting hacked like this. Epik's main job here is domain registration, not actual hosting (they in fact outsource the hosting pretty much always from what I can tell). That said, I do want to note that the reason this company got every far right site under the sun is because they are the only ones doing so here in "the West". Epik and Vanwatech are (or were, I really don't see Epik recovering from this by now) pretty much the only ones willing to service the far right on first world soil. There's plenty of hosting providers and domain registrars in Russia and China with a vested interest in destabilizing the US. It's just that the far right is also extremely against both of those countries (for mostly racist reasons) that stops them from being hosted there. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Incredibly enough, you're wrong. Epik is a web host as much as Amazon's web services or Microsoft Azure are. It took me 1 minute to find the webpage presenting me the possibility to have a shared hosting, or have my own dedicated server if I pay them money. 19:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Where do you get your information from? Where else are their servers outsourced? I have never heard of that before, this sounds like this is the perfect recipe for a disaster. 19:28, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you follow the hacked GOP site and do some Googling here and there, it links to accounts on the Interwebs that are tweeting about it and offering torrents of claimed site data (180GB originally, they now have a compressed version). There's also some people posting information about the data, which includes no payment data but includes account credentials, private keys, payment history, etc. Can't verify of course, but if it's true that Epik stored their passwords in unsalted unencrypted MD5 hashes, that is spectacularly-bad-seriously-how-the-fuck-are-you-in-IT level dumbfuckery. Even 20 years ago it would have been terrible security practice. Not sure if that's what was used to break in but based on files in the torrent list there's apparently a lot of Wordpress crapola, which can also be quite "leaky" if you aren't careful. Certainly if you are the type of person who uses frickin' unsalted MD5 for passwords. If what Anonymous claims does check out, this would be quite a disaster for them for sure. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * - It's all outsourced. Registrars don't ever offer hosting themselves, it's practically always through a proxy because the combined effort of having to keep up a registrar and all the hassles with protecting against shit like DDOS attacks, unauthorized logins to VPS's and all the other nonsense that a hosting company has to do just isn't viable when you have a registrar with actual customers. Their original provider was Voxility, but they lost that one due to Christchurch (I think they eventually got it quietly back though, after doing a lil' shuffle and lifting 8chan and a few others to Vanwatech, who do their hosting through N.T. Technology, which is Watkins' hosting company). -- Techpriest (talk) 20:16, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * My guess is that they were able to guess the access passwords. Monster apparently literally used his middle name ("willem", he's half-dutch) as an access password for something in the dumps, so their security is probably a fucking joke. -- Techpriest (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough, as I was looking up for more similar cases across registrars and web hostings, I found that this sort of amateurish security is a running problem among them. An example: Dreamhost had unprotected databases for 3 years: https://www.cpomagazine.com/cyber-security/dreamhost-database-leak-exposed-815-million-records-of-customer-data/ 21:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

More fun stuff! This company is fucked. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:16, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Epik was collecting CVVs. This is obviously illegal and probably will kill the company since the payment providers really don't like that sort of thing (basically complete security compromise for bank records of Epik customers; CVVs not being stored is the reason why most companies can safely say "yeah your credit card data is fine" when they get breached).
 * A bunch of Proud Boys have their information leaked out.
 * Bitchute and Gab both were using Epik.
 * The hoster of patriots dot win, the off-brand reddit clone of /r/The_Donald is in the breach (and identified).
 * Epik was setting the ICANN abuse emails to [userid]@epik.com, meaning it's easy to deanonymize people from their internal user database by using public ICANN records.
 * Everyone knew that already, they host all the major right-wing sites. Parler and 8chan are hosted by them. If I recall correctly, Spinster.xyz is too. 19:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 8chan got shunted to Vanwatech. Parler got pushed on another provider. Spinster is namecheap. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:50, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

A main possibility regarding the vulnerability exploited: "Security researcher Corben Leo contacted Epik’s chief executive Monster over LinkedIn in January [..] LinkedIn showed Monster had read the message but did not respond [..] a library used on Epik’s WHOIS page for generating PDF reports of public domain records had a decade-old vulnerability that allowed anyone to remotely run code directly on the internal server without any authentication, such as a company password. [..] “I am really guessing that’s how they got owned,” Leo told TechCrunch, who confirmed that the flaw has since been fixed. Monster confirmed he received Leo’s message on LinkedIn, [..] “I am not sure if I actioned it. Do you answer all your LinkedIn spams?” --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 11:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Am I eligible to make a new account
I was desysoped and temporarily banned for blanking pages in 2016, I expressed dissatisfaction with the ban duration and it was raised to permanent. My IP has changed since then so I could easily evade this, however I decided not to and to wonder if its communally permissible. 2603:9001:301:3600:29FA:A263:735:5F88 (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In principle, if you don't act like the ass that you were in 2016, we have no way of knowing who you are. If you continue to act like an ass, we will continue to treat you like one. Bongolian (talk) 20:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, it was by a single mod. 2603:9001:301:3600:29FA:A263:735:5F88 (talk) 20:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This may in fact give me a little bit of insight into this fascinating world of blanking and vandalism. I am honestly extremely curious what is the actual enjoyment people get out of doing that? Honestly, could someone explain this? I would really like to know. Shabi  DOO  20:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I had not contributed to the site in some months, after the argument between Mona and Arisboch, and having had become a tankie I started inserting offensive, or ridiculous edits and blanking pages to insult the more liberal rationalwiki, with rambling gibberish and attacks on liberals, until I was banned repeatedly and requested a longer ban as I continued to blank pages, which was then extended to disabled account creation. 2603:9001:301:3600:29FA:A263:735:5F88 (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and that was fun? Shabi  DOO  22:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd just go with Bongo on this one. But what was your account, I'm curious? Andrew5 (talk) 22:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just like other banned users you're able to appeal your ban. 05:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It was five years ago, the user has not expressed any intention of repeating the behavior and they could simply have evaded the ban and created an account with a new IP. Respect their honesty, welcome them back and subject them to the same rules as everyone else.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd find it more interesting to find out how one becomes a tankie, and how one unbecomes a tankie. Page blanking is just mindless. Bongolian (talk) 07:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC) Having been to one of their bookstores (RCP US), I've actually had casual interaction with tankies. Despite their public rhetoric, they're actually kind of mundane when they're doing retail. Bongolian (talk) 07:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "I had not contributed to the site in some months, after the argument between Mona and Arisboch, and having had become a tankie I started inserting offensive, or ridiculous edits and blanking pages to insult the more liberal rationalwiki"
 * Wait, are you This guy per chance?
 * Anyway, I agree with Bongolian and others. 5 years is plenty of time for personal growth, and I'd be happy to give you a second chance. 07:45, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just recognize.05:45, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the pays for the petulent, I get it I suck. I do respect you.   I guess I need timed.194.150.167.88 (talk) 05:56, 18 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Personally, as a vandal, it's only fun when you have morons as administrators overreacting to it. Pissing morons off is what is fun about vandalism. JVonCrastenberg (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

NYC wasn't the only city underwater.
DC was submerged on Thursday. Andrew5 (talk) 20:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

New Project underway
Draft:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation

I will like contribute to it later but I intend on completing it. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Trump Jr sure admires his father
https://mobile.twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1411682647433170947?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1411682647433170947%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-10160518033667436888.ampproject.net%2F2109032350000%2Fframe.html Pretty curious image to make for your father. Somecurioustweets (talk) 02:22, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

US Goverment Shutdowns
Seriously, why are we listening to this stupid letter from 1980, for why we have to  if Congress doesn't pass a budget. He was a fucking idiot. He was fucking wrong. Fuck him and his stupid 'interpretation'. Seriously, some jackass in 1980 says 'Oh, well here's what I think' and we seriously are forced to continue listening to his dumbass take 40 fucking years later? It's not in the fucking law he's referring to, he just made it the fuck up based off his reading of that .--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 03:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

If the Earth was flat...
...how come there are no Tinder profile pictures of dumbass Millenials and Zoomers hanging off the edge?

Everyone, give me your dumbest counter-arguments against a common conspiracy. E.g., XKCD's answer to "jet fuel can't melt steel beams!" "but they were carrying chemtrails; who knows what temperature those chemicals burn at?" 16:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Obviously Jeffrey Epstein hung himself. QAnon was right all along, Trump was so intent on protecting the world from the great cabal of pedophiles that he used his telekinetic powers to implant suicidal thoughts in Epstein's mind; no need to send in assassins! The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 17:12, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure that's a counter argument. More like a counter to the claim that Trump was going to get rid of the pedophile ring, e.g., isn't Epstein being murdered proof that Trump was taking out all the pedophiles? I'm sure there's something workable in there though :P.  17:52, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If NASA faked a moon landing, why haven't they faked a Mars landing? 17:55, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Heh, true. I like your version better. And obviously the 2020 election went to Biden, since the pedophile overlords brainwashed the sheeple; it was a valiant effort to educate them before it was too late, but alas not enough. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 18:20, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If the Earth was flat, cats would have pushed everything off by now. 20:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that if you look at the map of the Atlantic Ocean, it's clearly in the shape of a very buxom woman (NSFW). The Earth is not flat, she's as thicc as they come.  20:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I had to promise I was 18 and then still had to click on a supposedly "not safe for work" image to see the white outline of a pair of cartoon boobs. Is this some kind of new puritanism? What the fuck is wrong with the world? And get off my lawn! Spud (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I fucked a planet, Morty! 21:58, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's a good one. If the New World Order/Illuminati were real, why are there literally thousands of idiots on the internet "exposing" them? Wouldn't they find a way to... uh, delete the videos? Or better yet assassinate said "truthers" to prevent their "secrets" from being discovered? Alex Jones made over a million US Dollars in revenue in 2010, for example. Aaronmichael5 1:00, 18 September 2021 (UTC).
 * That's because Alex Jones is part of the conspiracy. In reality, the planet is ruled not by the New World Order, but by . You may think that their synth pop dance work was kind of catchy, but they actually contain secretly coded messages that allows the band to control every single government on the planet. And you sheeple thought when someone posted a Boss Metal Zone guitar pedal schematic as a 5G tracking chip, that this was a funny joke that showed how stupid conspiracy theorists were. No, the was a diversion! The *REAL* 5G chip injected in the COVID vaccine happens to be the Moog ladder "filter"! Yes, the same "filter" used in the bassline for New Order's hypnotizing hit Blue Monday. WAKE UP SHEEPLE! PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 05:06, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Big issue,buildings fell straight down. So flat earth or.... what... 05:34, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The world is being run by (a) hallucigenia and/or (b) cryptoids, using OOPA. Anna Livia (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Obligatory "Birthday Boy" post for my Birthday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjN3Op-k3GM

14:34, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Have a good one man! - Rairyu75  ( Talk ) 15:32, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy birthday. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 15:38, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy birthday. I hope you get something nice. 15:47, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy Birthday! 15:52, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Gratz dude! -- Techpriest (talk) 16:17, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In about 3 months, you get to celebrate "conception day"; Merry Christmas!!! 16:25, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Happy birthday! Long live Oscar Wilde! Jake Holmes''yell at me 16:45, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

The Covid Vaccines Are Working
The Economist had a write up about a paper written by Public Health England. Some highlights: There is no logical argument against this vaccine.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:58, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Infection more likely for unvaccinated Britons age 40-79
 * Hospitalizations 67%-90% more likely for unvaccinated Britons, similar to a later report from the US
 * Vaccinations are attributed to saving over 100,000 lives
 * Speaking from the POV of someone who got the vaccine (second shot administered June 5), I'd say there is one downside. It hurts, and I felt miserable on June 6. (Didn't help that day got to a baseline temperature of 91°F or 33°C). I'd just say know the risks and weatherbefore getting the vaccine. Andrew5 (talk) 23:09, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * My wife and I both received the J&J vaccine on the same day. Mine hurt at first but I never felt bruised or anything. Pain lasted maybe 15 minutes but dulled pretty quickly before that. My wife, on the other hand, was out of commission all day the following day. I have never seen her in such pain, really- she had to take the day off, even. Weird how folks have such different reactions. We are both glad we did it though! Oh and I guess since I failed to acknowledge the actual post here, what good news! Of course if people are gonna ignore facts they’ll ignore facts. Probliknaut (talk) 02:12, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well I didn't get J&J...Andrew5 (talk) 11:55, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "There is no logical argument against this vaccine" - and in other late breaking news never before known, water is wet. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 04:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "It hursts and I felt miserable" Really that's a downside? Compared to what? Not getting it and.......... Honestly, not having a go at you personally, but the amount of people moaning that a needle penetrating a muscle causing hurts is rather hilarious. Of course it will hurt, temporarily. Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The first vaccine injection was painful, probably because I didn't make sure to relax my arm beforehand. I made sure to relax during the second shot and it didn't hurt at all. It's funny that both nurses didn't tell me to do that. LongStylus (talk) 13:12, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I had a severe reaction to the first vaccine taking two days off work the first week and developing a chest infection due to cought with an additional day off work the net week. That was three days pay gone and feeling awful to two days and coughing horribly for a week. This is all absofuckinglutely peanuts compared with possibly dying from COVID and even worse, passing it on and being culpable for the death of innocent vulnerable people. To not get vaccinated unless you are the rarest of people who honestly should not get it, is a most viciously selfish, moronic and petty thing to do. There are several things wrong with you if you don't do it. Shabi  DOO  16:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Your immune system is fickle because I had none of the symptoms you describe. I'll add that this vaccine does not protect 100%, so perhaps you still caught covid. 17:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * or perhaps it was reaction to the vaccine, a known complication, as they said. yes, dr chicken, immune systems are fickle. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:27, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't gotten COVID, but I have gotten severe injuries before. In the exact spot I got my shot, 4 weeks before, I got a severe flesh cut. The skin was still trying to heal and it completely disrupted it. It felt like my arm would fall out for 15 hours, and sleeping that night was very difficult. Now, to be fair, most people don't get injuries there, so yeah. I actually think that, depending on how severe arm injuries are, getting the vaccine can be more lethal. I mean, hundreds of people died due to the vaccine, and honestly I felt like I would too after my 1st shot. I know that it is generally safer, I’m just saying from my POV, it was very harsh. This also shows I need to be more careful. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 19:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Your experiences transchicken ≠ other's experiences or even a huge majority of other's. Yes, I have had serious health issues recently, which makes getting a vaccine all the more important despite the serious discomfort I experienced getting the vaccine. None the less, at least four of my friends/acquaintances in top-health suffered one or two very unpleasant days off work after getting the vaccine including a colleague. None the less, all of this is irrelevant to the point I was making: even a pretty shitty experience getting a vaccine is better than a potentially tiny chance of seriously suffering/dying from COVID in the future and more so, potentially passing it on to others who die. That is, presenting the excuse of "yeah but I might be bed ridden in pain for two days" is a selfish and ridiculous reason not to get vaxxed. Shabi  DOO  20:07, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The COVID vaccine at this point seems quite similar in some ways to the flu vaccine -- people get sickness symptoms from the flu vaccine as well, but it's better than the alternative. (The COVID vaccine at this point actually is more effective than the flu vaccine in preventing disease, though.) For the record neither my wife nor I got very significant symptoms from the COVID shot (a sore arm, and I had a little "off" feeling for a couple hours from the 2nd shot), but I've heard others were not as lucky. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * True, I've heard different symptoms of it. I'd describe it as a hurricane. Most people have a tropical storm condition, which is minor or no effects. But I had a category 1, which is more severe. My parents had even more symptoms with a 104 fever, so I'd say a category 2. I've heard some people get completely wrecked. Andrew5 (talk) 20:44, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Vaccines are lame. Tifftiff (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I won't go that far. But saying "there are none..." statements are almost always false. For example - who benefits from people being sick? Doctors. Because that's how they get money.Andrew5 (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No. There are always medical issues that doctors can deal with. Reducing the number of extremely serious issues doesn't sufficiently reduce all possible medical issues to a number below the amount of issues doctors can deal with (and make money on). If very serious issues go away, doctors can dedicate more time to less serious ones or dedicate time to more time consuming treatments for other issues which have a better chance of success. As doctors famously get a small amount of time to rush from one patient to another, them spending more time on lesser issues is beneficial for patients and they still keep their pay. This is a small way of explaining why vaccination is so extremely important not just for COVID related issues, but for elective (or even not so elective) proceedures that are cancelled in order to free up doctors to deal with serious COVID issues. Alberta, Canada, the most American like province in Canada, which has a revolting number of vax-sceptics, freedom-warrior-imbeciles and a Premiere who is giving into these Texas style nutjobs and business interests who say "avoid lock downs and business unfriendly rules at all costs" has led to a low vax rate, virtually no COVID related rules and by far the worst COVID situation in the country. Other Canadians are embarrassed that Alberta exists and belongs in their country. The province has cancelled most non-elective surgeries. If people were vaxed and COVID related issues went away, it is not as though doctors would have nothing to do and less opportunities to make money, they would have all those elective surgeries to do that were re-cancelled, and a cascading reschedule problem that will take a long time to free-up. Even if tons of vaccines were discovered that magically solved multiple other issues, doctors could still dedicate more time per patient and issue improving medical treatment for all non-vaxinatable issues. At least in public hospital systems, doctors would prefer to not spend only 5-10 minutes per patient and patients would likely prefer this too. Until magic nano-bots are invented that will near instantly heal most issues, we won't be running out of stuff for doctors to do and make money on, even if a torrent of great medical treatments and vaccines start raining from the sky. Shabi  DOO  00:17, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The logic of your statements are exactly backwards, treading into misinformation. Doctors provide more than emergency care, in fact the preventative care they provided is worth more than emergency care. Additionally, my point stands, temporary physical pain is vastly outweighed by the toll possible from a Covid infection.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:52, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow, doctors have a hard life then. Andrew5 (talk) 00:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

A South Park episode that is more relevant to now than when it aired
The episode goes by the name of SHOTS!!!!. Specifically it parodies anti-vaxxers and their beliefs in every conspiracy theory about vaccines. In the episode Eric Cartman refuses to get any vaccine and runs around like a pig when the doctor gets close to him with a vaccine needle.

Now one thing that we need in real life is a "Vaccine Round Up" in which unvaccinated children are brought to a Rodeo-like arena where cowboys and doctors will give children vaccines as they run away like farm animals. In the episode it is sponsored by Chevy and Voices for Vaccines.

The episode is relevant and we need a vaccine round up. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 21:58, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * And that´s why we need gun control and police reform: to make such a thing possible. 22:13, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I pretty recently saw that episode Zombie, and I believe you may be confusing the episode where Cartman runs around with people trying to catch them as a pig with the recent two-part COVID special. In the episode where he runs around and people try to catch him as a pig, he isn't against the vaccine because of any anti-vax arguments but simply because he hates getting needles. There was no relevant anti-vax comments during that episode. But the two parter season (the last two episodes) there was some anti-vax stupidity. I'd have to rewatch them. I must say I have been massively disappointed by most of the content of the last five seasons, with a few rare exceptions finding the season long story lines tiresome, not that funny with way too many repetitive jokes (specially the memberberries, Jenner driving over people and the Garrison as Trump. Some of the one off episodes were funny. They have signed up for a few more new seasons. I truly hope they go back to one-off episodes as I truly miss the days of insane creative unique stories and zaniness! Shabi  DOO  00:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * At the risk of derailing the thread... They're definitely getting bored with the show creatively, there's a lot of John Cleese in their insistence on seeing a less sketchy, more developed story through to the end. Maybe that's what we'll see when they get back to the studio proper (more specials, longer episodes), but hopefully they still do a few of those "holy fuck, that happened last week" episodes now and then. Artificius (talk) 08:25, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Celebrities who say "We need better vaccines"
Can vaccines be improved? Maybe (I am not an expert nor should my opinion be taken as scientific evidence). That said, if these celebrities want to improve vaccines bad enough then they can do the following: go to college or a university, study biochemistry and molecular biology or immunology, earn the proper credentials, work in a research lab, get a grant and begin research on improved vaccines. They probably won't.

Moral- listen to qualified experts who work in the relevant fields if you are not qualified. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 16:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ...or donate some of their millions to said labs. It's ok for a non-scientist to be a science-fan.  16:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Which celebrity said this? Scanning entertainment news (ugh), I couldn't find anything. Just people who contracted the disease (like who got a breakthrough case and basically told people to get vaccinated, cause this disease sucks) or certain  role-playing epidemiologist and spewing so much bullshit that she got a diss track from the health minister of Trinidad.
 * CorruptUser: The "downside" of donating millions to health science is that you could become like Bill Gates and be the subject of CRAZY ALL-CAPS RANTS on the usual forums. (Not much of a downside, really. I'd find it a bit bemusing personally if I was in that position.)&mdash; Unsigned, by: PanGalacticGargleBlaster / talk / contribs
 * Bill Gates is only the center of the conspiracies because, well, ever see a child crying when given the vaccines? "Wwaaaaaa Idonwannageddit waaaaaaa waaa waaaaaa!"  Remember, all those kids grew older, but not all of them grew up, and you have a bunch of man-babies running around looking for any flimsy excuse to avoid getting a widdle pin-prick.
 * However, I find it absolutely hilarious that it was the divorce that led to Gates' downfall. NOW we know why he quietly retired from Microsoft; massive amounts of sexual harassment of female staff.  Plus, he was a bit too close with Jeffrey Epstein.  There was the whole agreement he had with his ex-wife where he'd spend a week per year with his girlfriend, plus numerous other instances of infidelity.  17:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Total medical genius Jenny McCarthy has claimed to be "pro-safe vaccines" before. Kinda applies here. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 21:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * She's claimed many medical "facts" before, but let's not get distracted. The claim "better vaccines" works on the emotional level and bypasses any need for the critic, in this case a celebrity, to make any provable point. The fact that vaccines are old science, are reliable and are of vast benefit to society is beyond any doubt within the scientific consensus, and that includes the covid mrna vaccines. The tech is old in relative terms. But is new to these celebs claiming "we need better vaccines." Vaccines work, yes there are some unfortunate people in which an unforeseen reaction can occur (thankfully quite rare cases), but overall for the majority of people, they are harmless and beneficial. And we, as a society, seem to have either forgotten just how beneficial or their benefits have become background noise. Polio, tetanus, mumps, measles, meningitis, pertussis to name a few are no longer, or were no longer a risk to us in everyday life. Truth is, you should never be getting any medical advise from a celebrity. Over this side of the pond, we have Ian Brown, Van Morrison, Eric "Enoch Powell II" Clapton harping on against vaccinations. I wouldn't ask Ian Brown how to cross the road, let alone something serious like my health. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * {ec}Pretty sure the only celebs spouting this sort of nonsense aren't working. Guarantee that many of the contracts out there in the entertainment industry include riders specifically that everyone needs to be vaccinated, with few exceptions. Most of the support staff are in unions, which could sue for gross negligence if there was an outbreak on set. And money from the studios would be wasted if infections require production to stop for any amount of time. McCarthy I am certain will need to be vaccinated when the Masked Singer returns, and you can bet the studio audience will be too.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * A lot of the anti-vaxxers "celebrity" crowd do seem to indeed be older and past their prime, assuming they had any sort of "prime career" to begin with (one member of Right Said Fred made headlines for being anti-vaxx despite being hospitalized with COVID, and that would be practically the first headlines these guys have generated in decades). I found one article where a few artists are actually cancelling shows if the venue requires proof of vaccination (Eric Clapton, Jim Breuer, and Alesana were mentioned). So there are a few working artists being silly. In Jim Breuer's case he seems to have got a Case of the Qs or something similar (one of the first videos in Youtube that shows up on a search is him ranting on Tucker Carlson), and in the case of Alesana one wonders if their COVID exposure shortly after the cancellations (forcing a complete tour postponement) will change their tune. Overall, yeah, the trend in the entertainment industry still seems to be very cautious with gigs with a fair bit of artists cancelling this year, vaccine or not. Per the articles, also, a few artists actually seem to be taking the opposite approach and cancelling shows if they are *too* loose with COVID venue requirements for their liking (Patton Oswalt, Michael Buble, and Jason Isbell were mentioned). Earlier this year a pop punk band (Teenage Bottlerocket) put on a show around these parts, and got around certain shithead regulations by charging $1,000 a ticket, with a $982 "discount" if you show proof of vaccination. I think the norm is more caution then not. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 22:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "one member of Right Said Fred made headlines for being anti-vaxx despite being hospitalized with COVID"
 * That's what happens when you think you are too sexy for a mask... 23:08, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Congratulations, you get a Reddit award and some karma. :) "This is exactly what I expected the first comment to be." There are no other jokes possible in the US. (In the UK, they did have a couple other songs chart. Such as a song called, er, "Deeply Dippy". Which indeed, it appears that they are.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 23:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What about "Living On A Dream" & "Don't Talk Just Kiss"? Weren't those hits aswell? 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:A10E:CF6A:8455:4454 (talk) 15:53, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * no. not living on a dream at least. 93 in the charts is hardly a hit AMassiveGay (talk) 21:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)