RationalWiki:Kitzmiller v. Dover annotated transcript/P032

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MR. HARVEY: The plaintiffs call to the stand Plaintiff Steve Stough.

THE COURT: And I noted no exhibits. I'll stand corrected if --

MR. WALCZAK: It's just the newsletter which is already in evidence.

THE COURT: It's already in. All right.

STEVEN STOUGH, called as a witness, having been duly sworn or affirmed, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: State your name and spell your name for the record.

THE WITNESS: My name is Steve Stough, S-t-e-v-e-n, S-t-o-u-g-h.

THE COURT: You may proceed.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. HARVEY:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stough. Could you please tell us where you live.

A. Dover address redacted

Q. And how long have you lived there?

A. I've lived at that address for 12 years. I've lived in Dover Township for 20.

Q. Do you have any children?

A. Yes. I have a son who is 21 and a daughter who is 14.

Q. Could you please tell us the first name of your daughter?

A. Sure. My daughter's first name is Child1.

Q. And where does Child1 attend school?

A. She attends school at the Dover Area High School.

Q. What grade is she in?

A. She's in the ninth grade.

Q. Is she taking biology right now?

A. Yes, she is. She's in Jen Miller's honors class.

Q. Can you tell us what you do for a living?

A. Yes. I teach life science at Southern Middle School in Southern York County School District.

Q. What is life science?

A. It's a seventh-grade life science curriculum. About a third of the year includes work with inquiries, scientific method. Then two-thirds of the year would be a very basic life science class, characteristics of living things, chemistry of living things, cell theory, germ theory, at a very basic level.

Q. You're a science teacher?

A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been a science teacher?

A. I've been a science teacher -- I've been a teacher for 29 years.

Q. Have you been teaching science that whole time?

A. No, I have not. I've been teaching science for about 15 years.

Q. Do you have any other jobs other than your job as a science teacher?

A. Sure. At Southern York County School District, Susquehannock is the high school. I'm the head boys and girls track and field coach, and I'm also the head cross-country coach for boys and girls.

Additionally, I serve on the strategic planning committee and am part of the staff utilization subcommittee and the technology subcommittee.

Q. Please tell us just briefly your educational background.

A. Okay. I graduated from West York in 1973. In 1977, I graduated from Penn State with a degree in bachelor's of elementary education. I continued my education at Millersville and Wilkes and received my master's equivalency from the Department of Education. And as a result of the No Child Left Behind, I had to take a practice test to get additional certification so that I could teach science in the middle school.

Q. And how old are you?

A. I'm 50 years old.

Q. Do you read a newspaper?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Tell us what newspapers you read on a regular basis.

A. I read the York Dispatch and the York Daily Record.

Q. How often do you read them?

A. I read them every day.

MR. GILLEN: Your Honor, just for the record, a standing objection to the hearsay from the newspaper.

THE COURT: All right. The objection is noted for the same reason as interposed with the last witness. The objection is overruled.

MR. GILLEN: Thank you.

BY MR. HARVEY:

Q. Did you say you read them on a daily basis?

A. I read them every day, yes.

Q. How long have you been reading them on a daily basis?

A. For a long time, many years.

Q. What about when you're on vacation, do you read them when you're on vacation?

A. This is my sickness. I'll take my computer along, and we have dial-up service, and I will read them online every day.

Q. Did you attend any meetings of the Dover Area School Board in 2004?

A. In 2004, I attended the December 1st meeting, the December 4th meeting, and the December 20th meeting.

Q. So you didn't attend any meetings in 2004 before December?

A. No, I did not.

Q. And did there come a time when you learned that the Dover School Board was considering approval of a biology textbook?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know when that was?

A. That would have been in early June of 2004.

Q. Tell us, please, the source of your information.

A. That would be the newspapers, both papers.

Q. And I'd like to know, do you remember learning about specific meetings in June of 2004?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. Tell me what specific meetings you recall learning about.

A. Well, I can't tell you the exact dates, but there were two meetings in June, I think early June, and I read about both of them in the paper.

Q. Was one on June 7th and one on June 14th?

A. That sounds right.

Q. Now, tell us, if you can, what you can remember learning from what you read in the newspaper about the June 7th school board meeting.

A. The June 7th school board meeting, what I can remember reading is that a former school board member, Barrie Callahan, had approached the board questioning why the students still did not have an adopted biology text for the ninth-grade biology course. Apparently there had been money allocated for that in a previous budget, and at this point there still had been no textbook approved. It seemed as if there was a textbook that was -- the teachers wanted approved, the dragonfly book. She was questioning why they didn't have a textbook at that point.

Also, from that then my understanding is that Board Member Buckingham said that he was seeking -- well, that the book was laced with Darwinism, that he wanted to see some equal treatment of creationism along with evolution. Board Member Bonsell said that there were only two theories, and one was evolution, one was creationism.

Board Member Buckingham said that the separation of church and state was a myth. And I also believe that that was the meeting that Max Pell spoke, a student, and he addressed the board just saying that, you know, evolution is the only thing that they should be teaching, that teaching creationism could cause them problems.

Q. I've handed you a notebook of materials. Please open it to what's been marked as P44 and tell us if you've ever seen it before.

A. Yes, I've seen this.

Q. When have you seen it before?

A. I would have seen this probably the day that it was -- well, yeah, the day that it was printed.

Q. And have you read it more recently?

A. I went over many of these articles recently, yes.

Q. So is this -- P44, this is an article from the York Dispatch that was published on June the 8th of 2004. Isn't that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it concerns a meeting of the school board?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you read it at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I'd like to ask you to please take a look at what's been marked as P45, and I'm going to ask you the same question.

A. Okay.

Q. And have you had a chance to look at that article?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And had you read that before just now?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you read it at the time?

A. Yes, absolutely.

Q. And have you read it in preparation for your testimony?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And it's an article from the York Dispatch on June 9th of 2004 that also deals with this board meeting that was held on June the 7th of 2004. Isn't that true?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, I'd like you to please take a look at what's been marked as P46. And I'm going to ask you the same questions with respect to that article. Have you had a chance to look at it?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Did you read it at or around the time that it came out?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And that was at or around June the 9th of 2004?

A. Yes.

Q. And this P46, this is, in fact, an article that you read at the time from the York Daily Record. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And just for the record, this one is by Mr. Joseph Maldonado?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And let's just go back and give credit where credit is due. On P44, that was an article from Heidi Bernhard-Bubb?

A. That's correct.

Q. And P45 was also an article by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb. Correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And then finally please take a look at what's been marked as P47, and I'm going to ask you the same questions. Have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. That's an article dated June the 10th of 2004 from the York Daily Record?

A. That's correct.

Q. And the author is Joseph Maldonado?

A. Yes.

Q. And is this an article that you read at or around the date of it, June the 10th of 2004?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you've reviewed it more recently?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, let's turn now to the June 14th meeting of the school board. You remember, as you stated before, reading in the paper about this meeting. Correct?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Tell us what you can remember learning from what you read in the newspaper about the meeting of the school board held on June the 14th, 2004.

A. What I remember reading is that Board Member Buckingham began -- or at the beginning of the meeting apologized to the community, to the people at the board meeting for his actions prior to that.

But then, again, I think the issues became the textbook adoption laced with Darwinism. Again I think he repeated the claim that separation was a myth. And I think that was the meeting where he said that someone died on a Cross for us 2000 years ago, can't we do something for Him.

Q. Now, I'd like you to take a look at what's been marked as Exhibit 53 in your notebook. Have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. That is an article dated June the 15th of 2004 from the York Daily Record written by Joseph Maldonado, isn't it?

A. That's correct.

Q. And did you read that at or around that date?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you read it more recently in preparation for your testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. And it deals with the June 14th meeting of the school board?

A. Yes.

Q. And now, please, if you would, take a look at what's been marked as P54.

A. Okay.

Q. That's an article from the York Dispatch dated June the 15th, 2004, written by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it also deals with the subject of the June 14th school board meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. And you read that article at or around that date?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you read it again more recently to help you prepare today?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, there was a meeting -- do you remember reading about a meeting in July of 2004?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you remember reading about that?

A. The only thing I remember about that meeting -- this gave me the impression that things were going well with the textbook adoption -- was that they had found a new edition of the dragonfly book, that they were looking at a 2002 edition, they had found a 2004 edition, and they were going to review that further.

Q. And, again, you learned this from reading this in the newspaper?

A. That's correct.

Q. And if you would, please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P64 in your notebook.

A. Okay.

Q. Have you had a chance to review that?

A. Yes.

Q. That's an article dated July the 13th of 2004 from the York Dispatch written by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb, isn't it?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it's reporting on a July meeting of the Dover School Board?

A. Yes.

Q. And you read that at the time?

A. Yes, I did, yes.

Q. Now, did you learn about a meeting in August of 2004?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And tell us what you can remember -- and again, you learned -- what you learned you learned from the local newspapers?

A. That's correct.

Q. Tell us what you learned about this meeting in August, 2004.

A. I believe that that meeting occurred early in August, around August 4th, and at that time the textbook was eventually approved. At first it was a four-four vote. As I understand it, that's not enough to have the book adopted. Board Member Angie Yingling asked for a reconsideration vote and the re-vote was five to three.

There was also some information there regarding Board Member Buckingham saying that he wouldn't allow -- or he didn't -- if he didn't get what he wanted as far as the curriculum or a book was concerned, that he didn't want to see this textbook being adopted. I think they even used the word "blackmail."

Q. And please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P682. Have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And that's an article from the York Daily Record dated August the 4th of 2004 written by Joseph Maldonado. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you read that at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And that deals with this meeting of the Dover School Board in early August?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And if you would please turn to what's been marked as P683. Take a moment to look at it. That's a -- have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. That's an article dated August the 3rd, 2004 from the York Dispatch written by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And that also deals with this early August, 2004 meeting of the school board. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And, again, you read -- this is another article that you read at the time?

A. Absolutely, yes.

Q. Now, did you learn about a board meeting in early September?

A. Yes, there were two board meetings in September.

Q. What do you remember reading about the first school board --

A. This would have been the first time that it came to my attention that they were considering bringing in a supplemental textbook, the Pandas textbook. And it seemed to me that that was their answer to the dragonfly book, getting their equal balance.

I think the problem was, number one, using taxpayer money, they would have to go through the adoption process. They were trying to figure a way of getting the book in and also a way of getting it into the curriculum.

Q. Please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P679. Have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. That's an article dated September the 8th of 2004 from the York Daily Record by Lauri Lebo. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And that concerns a school board meeting that was held just prior to that date?

A. Yes.

Q. And you read that at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And then if you would, please, look at what's been marked as P684.

A. Okay.

Q. Have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Sure.

Q. And that's an article dated September the 8th, 2004, from the York Dispatch written by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb dealing with that same school board meeting in early September, 2004?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And you read that at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Now, do you remember learning about a second meeting in September of 2004?

A. There was a second meeting in September. There wasn't a whole heck of a lot reported on that. Now, I did go on the board's site, and it looks like it was just a meeting, probably a business meeting that lasted 45 minutes. And I really didn't learn anything regarding this controversy.

Q. Did you read about any board meetings in October of 2004?

A. There were two board meetings in October. I think October 4th might have been the first one.

Q. What do you recall learning from reading the newspaper about the October 4th, 2004 board meeting?

A. That was when it was announced that there had been an anonymous donation of 60 copies of Pandas and People and that that book would be used as a supplemental text within the classroom. Because it was not -- didn't go through the formal adoption process, it did not require board approval. They just were basically going to put it in the classroom.

The other thing that I remember there is I think that at that point Dr. Nilsen was questioned as to whether or not the teachers would be teaching intelligent design or instructed to teach intelligent design, and I think his answer was that they weren't going to be instructed to teach intelligent design, but that if they did, that would be okay. I'm not sure exactly how the phrase went.

Q. Please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P685.

THE COURT: While he's doing that, Mr. Harvey, by no means do I want to hurry you through this. If you think that you can finish your direct by going a little past 4:30, we can do that. Otherwise, wherever you want to -- if you've got measurably more, I would say anytime you want to find an appropriate break point, we can do that and pick up with this witness on Friday. Your call.

MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honor. Let me just confer with them.

My co-counsel reminds me that we're going to have an expert testifying on Friday morning and that we want to make sure that we have plenty of time for his cross-examination so that he can leave that day, so we'd like to press on as long as the Court would permit us to press. If we could go to quarter of 5:00 --

THE COURT: I don't have a problem with that. Defense counsel have any problem?

MR. GILLEN: We'll hang in there, Your Honor. The cross, I imagine, would be very short anyway.

THE COURT: Well, let's do the best we can. We'll go until 4:45, in any event. We'll see how far we get.

BY MR. HARVEY:

Q. Have you had a chance to look at what's been marked as P685?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And that is an article that was in the York Daily Record Sunday News on October the 5th of 2004 written by Joseph Maldonado, isn't it?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you read it at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And that was the source of your information for the meeting on October the 4th?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, you said that there were two meetings in October. Do you recall the meeting -- that there was a meeting on October the 18th?

A. Yes, October the 18th was where the board adopted the curriculum change to the ninth-grade biology in the area -- well, the gaps and problems and added intelligent design to their curriculum.

Q. And, again, this is something you learned just from reading the paper?

A. Yes.

Q. Please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P678.

A. Okay.

Q. You've had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And P678 is an article that was written by Joseph Maldonado in the York Daily Record Sunday News on October the 19th of 2004, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And you read that at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And that was the source for your information about the -- what happened at the October 18th meeting?

A. That's correct.

Q. And if you would also please look at P686.

A. Okay.

Q. That's another article by Mr. Maldonado, except this one is dated October the 20th, 2004, and this one also says it's from the York Daily Record Sunday News. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it's a different article reporting on the same meeting?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you read that at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Now, do you remember -- I don't want you to look at the article. You can close your book for a second. Do you remember reading about or learning about comments that Board Member Heather Geesey made at that meeting on October the 18th?

A. I'm not sure if it was the October the 18th meeting, but I know that there was a question regarding whether or not -- I actually thought it was the next meeting, but whether, if the teachers sought to have legal counsel, Stock and Leader, the school board's lawyers, would they, in case the teachers got sued for teaching this, would they defend them. And Heather Geesey at that point said if they would ask for that, if they'd ask for help from Stock and Leader, they should be fired.

Q. "They" you mean the teachers?

A. Teachers.

Q. And, again, this is just what you read in the paper?

A. Yes. That one, being a teacher, stood out.

Q. Now, did you learn about a board meeting in early November?

A. Yes.

Q. And tell us what you can remember learning about that meeting.

A. Well, what I remember there is that Noel Weinrich, who was -- I believe at that point in time he had resigned from the board and his resignation was effective. He was upset. He was concerned about who was going to -- if the school district got sued, who is going to cover his bills, you know, legal bills if he had any. And also he was, I think, upset because I think he had been -- he felt he had been assured by Dr. Nilsen that we were not going to be teaching -- that the district was not going to be teaching intelligent design.

Q. And do you remember learning anything about tapes that had been made of the board meeting?

A. Okay, the tapes. Apparently the board tapes their meetings for use when they go back and try to put their minutes together. And there were people requesting the minutes from the October 18th meeting. Those tapes were denied to them.

There was some question about what the whole policy was regarding these tapes. I believe that Board Member Bonsell said that once the minutes had been typed and approved at the next board meeting, that these tapes were destroyed.

And I believe that they also said under the advice of their solicitor that -- because they were -- there was the chance that they would be sued in the future because of what had happened at the October 18th meeting, that they were told that they should be destroyed, or at least not turn them over to the public.

Q. Please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P669.

A. Okay.

Q. Have you had a chance to look at that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. That's another article by the ever-present Mr. Joseph Maldonado, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And it's dated November the 2nd, 2004, and it's for the York Daily Record Sunday News. Is that right?

A. If we're looking at -- which number, 669?

Q. Yes.

A. 669 is dated November 2nd, 2004. I thought you said November 4th.

Q. I'm sorry if I misspoke.

A. Okay.

Q. So it's an article dated November the 2nd of 2004 for the York Daily Record Sunday News by Mr. Maldonado?

A. Correct.

Q. And it's reporting on the school board meeting that was held actually on November the 1st?

A. Right.

Q. And you read this at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And if you would also please look at what's been marked as P687. And that's another article you read at the time?

A. Yes, I definitely did.

Q. And that's by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb, and it's dated November the 2nd, 2004, from the York Dispatch. Isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it's also reporting on the November 1st meeting?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Now, in addition to reading all these newspaper articles that we've just looked at, did you review material on the Dover School Board Web site?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Please take a moment to look at what's been marked as P104. What is P104?

A. P104 was the -- they call it the board press release. My question all along had been, now we have this curriculum, how are they going to implement it. And I believe this is their policy that they're telling the public how they're going to implement this. They're going to read a statement. This appeared on the Web site on Friday, November 19th.

Q. And did you read it on or around that date?

A. That day.

Q. And what was your reaction to it?

A. All along I thought this would just go away. I don't know how -- that's the only thing I can say. And, you know, as a teacher, there are things in the curriculum, you try to cover them. The question is how they're going to be implemented. This showed me how this curriculum was going to -- that it was going to be implemented, how it was going to be implemented. And this, I would have to say, was the thing that put me over the edge.

Q. And did you do anything after reading this?

A. I called the ACLU the following Monday.

Q. Did you contact Paula Knudsen from the ACLU?

A. Well, what I did is, I really -- you know, I had heard the ACLU being bantered around in the newspapers at that point in time. I called -- I believe they have a hotline in Philadelphia. And I called that, and I just basically said I'm a parent who has a student in Dover School District, and I feel right now that possibly some of my rights and my daughter's rights might be being violated. I was looking for somewhere to turn. And that was basically -- you know, with contact information, that was what I did that day.

Q. Now, after reading these articles and reading this -- what was posted on the Web site, did you begin to attend school board meetings?

A. I did not -- well, yes, because the next school board meeting would have been December 1st. Yes, I did.

Q. And that was your first school board meeting?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And it was because of these issues that you attended that meeting?

A. Yes. I felt it was time to get involved.

Q. Now, I'd like you to take a look at what's been marked as P127. We've looked at this in court several times. Do you recognize it as the newsletter that was published in February of 2005 by the school board?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And were you ever at a school board meeting where this was discussed prior to it being published?

A. I wouldn't say it was discussed.

Q. Tell us what you can remember being mentioned about it.

A. Much to my wife's chagrin, I went to the school board meeting on February 14th, Valentine's Day. And it was not on the agenda. You're able to pull up the agenda to the school board meetings on their Web site, and it was not on that agenda. Additionally, they also publish agendas and have those there for you to pick up at the meeting. There was nothing on there regarding the approval of this newsletter.

There's a section in -- when they work through their agenda, and I'm not sure exactly what it's called, but it's president's message or president's communications. And at that time Board Member Eric Riedel made a motion to send out a district newsletter in addition to the one they were already sending out regarding the biology curriculum update. It was seconded by Board Member Buckingham, and it passed seven-zero. There are nine members on the school board. Two were absent.

Q. Was there any discussion among the board about it?

A. No. This went quick.

Q. Now, after that, did you receive this -- as a result of that, did you receive this newsletter?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you tell us whether -- did you read it at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I'd like you to tell us, what was your reaction as a schoolteacher -- and I'm going to take you through parts of it. There are some frequently asked questions, and I'd like you to look at the first frequently asked question and tell us what was your reaction as a schoolteacher to that statement.

A. A small minority of parents. I don't care if it's one parent objecting to this, but the group of folks that I'm involved with are plaintiffs. We were being put into this small group that was making problems and trouble for the school district.

Q. And take a look at the second frequently asked question. Did you have a reaction to that statement there?

A. I would completely disagree with this. In my opinion, intelligent design is religion in disguise. I use the word "camouflage."

Q. And that was your reaction at the time?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Now, take a look at -- it says that it involves science versus science. Did you have a reaction to that at the time?

A. Well, it's not science. I mean, intelligent design is not science. We've heard the experts here. It's not science. It doesn't reach the level of science.

Q. Please take a look at the next frequently asked question when it asks about what is the theory of evolution, and I'd like to know if you had a reaction to that at the time.

A. I sure did. Am I allowed to read this?

Q. Sure.

A. (Reading:) The word "evolution" has several meanings, and those supporting Darwin's theory of evolution use that confusion in definition to their advantage. So we're going to put evolution over on people, we're going to employ double-talk. We say one thing, we say another thing. That's not what scientists do.

Q. So you understood the school board to say that science teachers engage in double-talk when they talk about evolution?

A. Yes.

Q. Please take a moment to look at the next frequently asked question, the one that says, What is the theory of intelligent design?

A. Right, right, I was just looking it over. My problem is, again, it recognizes an intelligent designer, an intelligent cause. Again, it doesn't reach the level of science.

Q. And that was your reaction at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. And please take a look at the next frequently asked question. Well, actually, within that, what we were just looking at, it says, In simple terms, on a molecular level, scientists have discovered a purposeful arrangement of parts which cannot be explained by Darwin's theory. Did you have a reaction to that statement at the time?

A. Well, the word "purposeful." Again, I think we're going back to the whole concept of design and then someone had a purpose and that would be God.

Q. The next frequently asked question says, Are Dover students taught the theory of intelligent design? And there's a response there. Do you see that?

A. This is the great one-minute statement. We're making a one-minute statement, but we're not teaching. I've been teaching for 29 years. Everything that I say in that classroom is teaching. I carry a fair amount of authority and credibility within that.

If I say that one NFL football -- and I'm trying to avoid sports analogies here. But if I say one NFL football team is better than another, I'm going to tell you that 80 percent of my kids are going to go back to their parents and say, this is what Mr. Stough said, and this is how it is. I don't care if it's a minute, I don't care if it's ten seconds, it's teaching.

Q. And then there's another frequently asked question that said, Are there religious implications to the theory of ID? And there's a response. Can you tell us if you had a reaction to that question and response at the time?

A. No more so than religious implications of Darwin's theory. There are no religious implications of the theory of evolution. They like to characterize evolution as being dogmatic, as being a religion. It's not. And so, again, they're just saying this is -- you know, evolution is a religion, too. It's not.

Q. And then, finally, under the right-hand corner there's something that says, quotables, and then there's a quotation from somebody named Anthony Flew, and it refers to him as a world-famous atheist. Do you recall having a reaction to that quotation from Mr. Flew at the time?

A. Sure.

Q. Please tell us what was your reaction.

A. Well, what they're doing -- from what I understand the story with Anthony Flew is, he was an atheist, and they equate that point in time of his life with his, you know, adhering to or accepting the theory of evolution.

Then he moved towards the intelligent design concept and at the same time was finding religion, was no longer an atheist. There are a lot of messages there. Atheism is bad. Religion is good. And, you know, I had to laugh at how many people want to be world-famous atheists.

MR. HARVEY: Your Honor, that's all the questions I have on that exhibit, but I do have a few other exhibits, and we're surely not going to get it done in the next few minutes.

THE COURT: So you want to continue your direct?

MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. And certainly we're not going to get cross in today, so we'll adjourn for the day. We'll be in recess until Friday morning at 9:00 a.m. Now, you have an expert who is going to follow this witness. Is that correct?

MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Do you think that's going to take the rest of the day on Friday?

MR. HARVEY: I believe so.

THE COURT: Do we need to start a little earlier on Friday to get that in?

MR. HARVEY: Happy to do so.

THE COURT: If you don't think we do --

MR ROTHSCHILD: I think it's a good idea to be safe.

THE COURT: Why don't we start at 8:45 just to be safe and give you a little extra time. And certainly I'd give the defendants the same courtesy during your case-in-chief. I just want to keep this moving. That will give us a little bit of a cushion at the outset so we don't get lost on this witness on Friday morning.

So we will reconvene at 8:45. That will be our starting time on Friday morning, and we'll go as long as we have to. I would rather not go beyond 4:30, actually, on Friday. We have a full week. I think we're in session every day or parts of every day next week, so we'll try to wrap it up at least by 4:30. But that will give us a cushion if we start at 8:45. So we'll recess until 8:45 on Friday. Wish you all a pleasant good evening. We'll see you then.

MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honor.

(Whereupon, the proceedings were adjourned.)