User talk:TK/Archives1

Would it have killed you to preserve the wiki formatting? --Sid 14:45, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * His page, his castle.--PalMD-Talk 14:47, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, but my eye cramps. ;) --Sid 14:49, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Personal info, threats

 * Blackmailers, all of you. Interesting that Trent has just told me you guys were passing Amazon.com info from when my credit cards were stolen, and one of the items was a seemingly Gay video. And isn't it interesting that last night, with my first account, one of the anonymous threats was to send that "info" to Andy. Intellectuals, my ass. --&#91;&#91;User:TK&#124;lTK &lt;sub&gt;&#91;&#91;User_talk:TK&#124;/MyTalk]]&lt;/sub&gt;]] 14:52, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I havn't heard about any of this - and I certainly wouldn't be surprised to find out that you're making it all up. --Huey gunna getcha 14:53, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, your kind would. Ask Jtl, he is the first to bring it up to me, strictly "FYI" on IRC.....Tmtlouse just told me on AIM all of you knew about that, it was floating around here, or some IRC log, he told me. Of course we were discussing his block at CP, and I am sure he didn't bring it up to extort me. And the fact that the "anyonomous" threats last night on IRC and AIM brought it up, has nothing to do with people here.  Not at all.  Errrr, yeah.  --lTK User_talk:TK 14:57, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Haha, you make random accusations against members, and then tell me that someone else has the evidence to support you. Nice try.  As for "my kind," I'm fairly certain that you don't know what you're talking about.  The only common thread among most members here is that we tried to establish a working environment on CP for different reasons, and were driven out by one asinine policy after another.  However, that's neither here nor there.


 * What is at issue, is your childish manner in bringing up a grievance. You make a baseless accusation, and completely fail to provide any sort of backing.  You dismiss any sort of skepticism as being the irrational workings of some kind of unidentified and unarticulated "kind."  On top of all this, you claim that I've got to be wrong, because "all of [us]" know about something - another unsourced and baseless statement.


 * If you want to call someone out for a certain instance of conduct, you'd best be able to prove it. Without proof - you're just a whining joke.  --Huey gunna getcha 15:09, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Well if what you say is true, restore all of RW 1.0 and let the public decide if you have any veracity whatsoever! Willing to do that?  My posts are on CP, not deleted, mostly, and those that are, are in history.  Where is the history here, so that others can judge your records the same?  Oh, wait, you guys deleted them!  NM.  --TK /MyTalk 16:48, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * For the record, the amazon.com link about TK's account purchasing "Guy Gone Wild" has been circulated around as sort of an "inside but not so inside" joke for awhile now. And I did tell him that point, the extrapolation that he took beyond that...well....Tmtoulouse 15:12, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

There is no cabal 130.113.121.43

Anonymous posts are the hallmark of cowards and terrorists. Maybe no cabal, but lots of haters threatening me for being here. And its your own Bureaucrat who confirmed it all for me, about the blackmail info, all of it. So obtain carnal knowledge of yourself. --TK /MyTalk 15:05, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I didn't "confirm" anything TK. I made several good faith attempts to stop the fighting and the hate, and you rejected it all with your conspiracy plots. Tmtoulouse 15:08, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Tmtoulouse, do you deny this conversation within the past hour? Is it completely accurate?

Exculpatory1 (12:02:37 PM): i just hope my family will be safe daysofsiege (12:04:41 PM): I don't know who did it, but script kiddies are not ones to take proactive action beyond keying in information in a computer, I am sure it was meant to scare only......it was a seriously unfortunate turn of events Exculpatory1 (12:05:43 PM): pffft Exculpatory1 (12:05:58 PM): yeah, Exculpatory1 (12:06:20 PM): odd Palmd would post that nothing should be removed from my talk page, eh? daysofsiege (12:07:36 PM): Well thats in the backdrop of the fight we had over Conservative and his deleting of talk page material, there is a discussion going on now about how talk pages are "community" pages I think its with in that context and not a nefarious thing Exculpatory1 (12:08:08 PM): sure Exculpatory1 (12:08:14 PM): and flippins remarks? daysofsiege (12:08:51 PM): His seemed fairly innocuous to me? Exculpatory1 (12:09:09 PM): lol Exculpatory1 (12:09:17 PM): yes, already pre banned daysofsiege (12:09:36 PM): pre-banned? Exculpatory1 (12:09:39 PM): so much for your posted deal about anyone could be a sysop if helping daysofsiege (12:10:13 PM): I would almost prefer to make everyone a sysop Exculpatory1 (12:21:06 PM): one bit of information, about an order on Amazon.com, by someone using my name, a couple of years ago, when i had credit card theft, also threatened to send that info to Andy.....the only person to mention that to me before was Jtl Exculpatory1 (12:21:38 PM): it was for some gay videa, "Dudes gone wild" or something, among $3,000 in other shit Exculpatory1 (12:21:50 PM): Jtl brought it up to me a month or so ago in IRC Exculpatory1 (12:21:53 PM): ask him. Exculpatory1 (12:22:21 PM): now last night, the unnamed threateners bring it back Exculpatory1 (12:22:49 PM): the other threats involved turning off my power/phones, etc daysofsiege (12:22:54 PM): I don't doubt its someone from rationalwiki Exculpatory1 (12:23:06 PM): contacting my office, fat good that would do, since i am the owner Exculpatory1 (12:23:22 PM): well, why then were they quoting posts from RW that I made? daysofsiege (12:23:36 PM): I am saying I do NOT doubt it was Exculpatory1 (12:23:44 PM): and why are the quoting info that Jtl threatened me with earlier, on IRC? Exculpatory1 (12:23:54 PM): he didnt threaten Exculpatory1 (12:24:06 PM): he just quietly extorted, just asking me about it, lol daysofsiege (12:24:37 PM): Well thea amazon.com thing had been tossed around more than a few times, so its not exclusive to jtl..........it sounds to me like it was aimed to scare and is not a serious threat, but what do I know? Exculpatory1 (12:24:38 PM): later linus even mentioned it.......making a reference to Jtl getting me under control, finally Exculpatory1 (12:24:56 PM): Jtl told me he researched the info Exculpatory1 (12:25:09 PM): the fact that you knew about it, and never warned me, is telling daysofsiege (12:25:16 PM): knew about what? Exculpatory1 (12:25:33 PM): daysofsiege (12:24:37 PM): Well thea amazon.com thing had been tossed around more than a few times, so its not exclusive to jtl.......... '''daysofsiege (12:25:43 PM): The amazon.com thing? that was all over RW I figured you knew''' Exculpatory1 (12:25:48 PM): the threat was specific last night...they were going to send it to Andy


 * Seems like you totally confirmed the story about the info gathered on me.

--TK /MyTalk 15:32, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I never denied that I confirmed that the amazon.com thing had been tossed around for a while. We learned about that very early on, and it was an "inside but not that inside" joke. It was tossed around a lot. So yea, I confirm that we all knew that someone with your name bought a video called "Guys Gone Wilde." So now what? Tmtoulouse 15:34, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Look at the times. While I was putting up the transcript, after I read your post above saying you never confirmed anything, you posted again.  I am just merely making the point that people here think its cool to pass around that kind of info. Intellectuals, my ass! --TK /MyTalk 15:37, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I think the issue would be if they didn't address it in response to your comment about personal info being up on this site. I agree, you shouldn't have any more personal info up here than I do. That is what makes the position intellectual--the ability for a position to change. Flippin ;-) 15:43, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, I would suggest that maybe you could help your case a bit more by not throwing collective accusations at everyone who has ever been involved with RationalWiki. It's possible that someone has done what you say. But not everyone. --AKjeldsen 15:46, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I didn't. You assume I think everyone knew.  I never said that. --TK /MyTalk 15:52, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * OK, that's good. --AKjeldsen 15:55, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Your post begins - "Blackmailers, all of you." Looks rather like a collective accusation to me. I must admit that it doesn't' endear you to me.--Bob_M (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Anyway, I'm pretty confused about what exactly it is that is supposed to have happened. Could you perhaps write a brief description of the sequence of events as you see them, or something like that? --AKjeldsen 15:57, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm confused...I specifically posted that I thought that TK should be allowed to remove his content. My only concern was with picking and choosing, but I wouldn't bother to argue that point.  I specifically said that I thought any reference to personal information should be avoided/deleted and that if he wished to wipe his page, it was his choice.--PalMD-Talk 15:48, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

TK, you said "lots of haters threatening me for being here. And its your own Bureaucrat who confirmed it all for me, about the blackmail info, all of it.", which sure sounds like you're saying Tmtoulouse confirmed that you were blackmailed and/or threatened. If that's not the case, please retract that.

Next, you said "one bit of information, about an order on Amazon.com, by someone using my name, a couple of years ago, when i had credit card theft, also threatened to send that info to Andy." You went on to say "and why are the quoting info that Jtl threatened me with earlier, on IRC?", "he didnt threaten", "he just quietly extorted, just asking me about it, lol". I don't believe I either threatened or extorted you. What do you think I was trying to get from you, and what do you think I threatened to do if I didn't get it?

And, for accuracy's sake, I at least have no idea what was ordered in your name. What I'm aware of was what was on your Amazon wishlist. And the item in question wasn't added "a couple of years ago"; it was less than a year ago, one of the latest additions on a wishlist spanning more than 5 years.

And yes, information on this was posted at RW1.0, as part of a failed attempt to verify any of your claims about your importance and connections. So was the fact that you said it was due to a stolen credit card. So was the fact that I don't see how that story makes any sense at all -- whoever heard of credit card thieves using a wish list, much less using one for 5 years? And why would any of us have told you that? You've been crowing for a week about having a complete copy of RW1.0, so we assumed you already knew all that.

And I have no intent of posting any more about this, or your non-CP activities, on the new public RW. That's not because I believe I did anything wrong, or because I think you're a victim, but because that seems to be the community consensus here. --jtl talk 17:17, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

inability to read?
TK, I admonished you for making an accusation and claiming that someone else would provide evidence to support you. Within two minutes of my post, you wrote on my user page that Trent will tell me about everything I need to know. Read before you type. Seriously, it will make you appear exponentially more intelligent. --Huey gunna getcha 15:14, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * It truly will. -Icewedge 15:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * You two might get a clue and see that I never saw your "admonishment" before posting on Huey's page. And of course your Bureaucrat has in the meantime confirmed everything I said.  Are you big enough to apologize?  No, I see its been some time, and you haven't. --TK /MyTalk 16:08, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * The only thing I have confirmed is the amazon.com link was known by most of RW for a long time. The issues of threats, blackmail, who did what when where why and how, I can not confirm because I was not there, have no evidence, ect. And really, I am not "the Bureaucrat" there is not "ladder" of power here. So what I have to say means no more or no less than what anyone else has to say. Tmtoulouse 16:12, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Tmtoulouse, that is the only thing I said you confirmed. I request Sysop status, since there isn't any real ladder here, you shouldn't mind, eh?  --TK /MyTalk 16:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Apologize? You've got to be kidding.  My first concern with you was that making an accusation and expecting someone to back you up is asinine.  Whether or not you were confirmed is entirely irrelevant.  Just because you were right doesn't mean you were smart for saying it.


 * Additionally, I fail to grasp how I could "see" that you didn't read my post. I posted, and minutes later, you posted.  Temporal laws dictate that you're chasing your tail on this one.  Good try, buddy.  --Huey gunna getcha 16:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Sysop

 * Tmtoulouse, that is the only thing I said you confirmed. I request Sysop status, since there isn't any real ladder here, you shouldn't mind, eh? --TK /MyTalk 16:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

We decided that anyone from the first group of RW could have it if they wanted it. As for people not a part of that initial group, thats up to the community. I am not going to unilaterally make that decision. We haven't even set up basic guidelines yet for the site, let alone policy for vetting sysop requests. This is the second day of operations, we have a lot of things that need to get done. As soon as we setup a process for electing new sysops I will make sure that you are on that list and get a fair hearing. Tmtoulouse 16:19, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

I was a previous user. Len. So that qualifies me, no?


 * And I'll keep an eye on T. ;) Flippin ;-) 16:29, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Userbox
Sure, feel free to use any userbox. Enjoy! Jrssr5 15:16, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

I, for one, welcome you
As I said here and on CP. I don't know if that matters, but discussing things with you doesn't scare me and I hope it scares no one else. Please, if people do threaten you, please post the entire quote on your talk page, or someplace where it can be addressed. I think most here would agree that sentiment. Anyway, I'll quit bugging you. See you tomorrow, hopefully. Flippin ;-) 15:56, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I'd like to second that.--PalMD-Talk 16:01, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Me three. Diabhal 16:49, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks Mr. Brown. Too bad you don't speak out with your own, and call them off threatening to turn the power off on 82 year old women. Like Tmtoulouse, you have a pretty good idea who is doing it.  It would improve things immensely if you didn't pretend to be innocent. Good people hearing of stuff like the Amazon deal, speak up, warn people about criminals who consider using blackmail. If I promise to quit bringing this up, and produce good product, I would like Sysop status here as a sign of good faith from you. --TK /MyTalk 16:05, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

I think the best act of good faith would be to comment on what you do, rather than on who you are. Tabula rasa. I'm not there yet for sysop status, were it my decision, but I'll tell you that man to man, not whispering behind your back...a sign of good faith.--PalMD-Talk 16:12, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Well put, Doctor. I think you'll need to earn that over here just as you would anywhere. I think what may go a long way toward establishing good faith is also that, you'll notice, no one here is going to block you, ban you, for speaking your mind. Welcome to rational Wiki--free of the "90/10 rule for...EVER!" Flippin ;-) 16:20, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

This is not a decision I have, or would want, any kind of influence on, but I htink a relevant question is whether you would be using the same style of moderatorship here as on Conservapedia? I have to say that in my eyes, at least, your resume from there does not inspire much confidence. --AKjeldsen 16:26, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't know if this issue will got to a vote and I have taken no part in this discussion previously, but I don't see TK as a sysop. Nevertheless - Mr TK in what way would you use your sysop status to improve the site?  What would you do to further the cause?  Why do you want this duty?--Bob_M (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * From the conversation below, I'd tend to agree based on lack of qualifications. A sysop needs three things: responsibility, credibility and ability.  The conversations here call all three into doubt, so before I'd even consider him with more than a laugh, I'd need to see some proof he has those qualities.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
 * Oh, and I've never been on Conservapedia. As the wiki grows, the proportion of people who have been on CP and those who haven't will drop considerably.--Kels 17:34, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * The previous instructions, now deleted didn't make any such requirement. Besides, it has already been decided.  And I have copied the page where Sysops said so. Def never Sysop for TK.  What phonies you guys are!  Intellectuals?  My ass! --TK /MyTalk 16:50, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * WTF?--PalMD-Talk 16:57, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Now I've missed all this happy discussion (yay for having a family and real things to deal with) but I for one would LOVE to see TK as a sysop here as he'd actually have to justify his blocks and bans to the other users and maybe defend his POV, something that CP has never tasked him to do. Ohh, and as it's your user talk page, welcome TK. I for one am happy to see you here, it is only by having to debate our points of view that we truly understand why we hold them. Trashbat 18:05, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * As I have said to others, Trashbat, administrators at most cites do the bidding of the boss. Policemen arrest and ticket people and don't necessairly agree with the laws other's pass, no?  There wasn't anyone, perma-blocked by me, that Andy didn't approve first. Things for a day or two, a week, I could use my own judgement on.  I am an admin on myspace, and manage to go by completely different rules there, ones that would no doubt shock "Conservative".  ;-)  In any event, thanks for the welcome.  Just tired of all the shit, is all.  But I doubt I will get the same "clean slate" here as those who made this board gave themselves, and that's unforuntate.  --TK /MyTalk 19:21, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, (and I hope I'm speaking for everyone here) I plan to completely drop any hard feelings towards anyone from our experiences at CP. This is a totally different place, and I think every single one of us could use a fresh start. That being said, glad to see you here, and welcome! GodlessLiberal 19:48, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Well thanks! I do want a fresh start. Just wish I got the same "fresh start" here you guys did. But unfortunately there are pages and pages of nasty remarks about me here.  And the evidence of you guys being the same got wiped.  So not totally fair, is it?  But I am willing to try.  I have unbanned everyone from IRC.  --TK /MyTalk 20:21, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * CP was an entertainment source for a lot of us, and many held grudges against several Sysops for their all-out wars against us. But I think (hope) we're past that, so the nasty remarks won't last much longer. GodlessLiberal 20:37, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, just long enough for the Google index, eh? While you look pristine.  And you are stll posting like a moron, thinking anyone actually had a war going on.  --TK /MyTalk 21:11, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I can't help it... I'm just a pristine guy. GodlessLiberal 22:11, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Please don't post here anymore. For any reason. Thanks. No soup for you! --TK /MyTalk 22:37, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * You can have some of my soup, GL, I still have some left from the site destruction party last Sunday night. human be in 22:49, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

I welcome you here also. I look forward to you being an important contributor. I don't need to encourage you to speak your mind - i know you will! ;-) Airdish 02:13, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Thank you for your kindness, Airdish. I don't know if I am deserving of it, but I promise to return yours, wherever we might cross paths. Take care. --TK /MyTalk 04:25, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Welcome Wagon
Welcome to the Dollhouse! I hope your time here is pleasant and productive. Just out of curiousity, are you the same person as TK on CP? (I keep posting this and it keeps vanishing, let's hope the third time is a charm!) human be in 16:20, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Your CP Userpage
(I inserted a headline to the top-most part to move the ToC to the top. Feel free to change the headline, but for the sake accessibility, please don't remove it - it's tedious to scroll for a while before reaching the table of contents.)

I posted the basic hint about this on your old talkpage (but it got vaped, so you might not have seen it): Your userpage is broken. The entire left navigation column "fell down" (at least in Firefox - other browsers may be more forgiving). Here's the fix (left is current version, right is corrected one): {|border=1 style="border: 1px solid #aaaaaa; border-collapse:collapse;" The only difference is the added  |}  close to the bottom. It closes the table that was left open. In fact, I'm not sure why you even use two tables there. You could leave away the outer table with no visible difference from what I see. --Sid 17:02, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Sid, no, I didn't see it, and the history doesn't show anything either. Could you please IM me? I really don't understand what the above is talking about, or see any problem on my page.  --TK /MyTalk 17:28, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I'll dig out the IRC client. Are you using the usual TK__ name? --Sid 17:31, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Nice pic
I like the picture on your user page. --jtl talk 20:48, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks! :D --TK /MyTalk 21:11, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Help?
Need any? - TK


 * (copied from my sandbox talk) Yes, now that you mention it, although it's just cut and paste grunt work.  That essay of AmesG's has a dozen or so links of the form CP:blah that need to be setup as blah so the text flows properly.  I would really love not to have to do it.  Other than that?  Got any good ideas for articles or essays?  Grab a sandwich, get some fresh air to clear your head, and jump in, the water's fine.  This place may be populated by many with whom you have recent, um, "issues", but we, and I mean all of us are only here if it's fun.  So - have some fun, k? Thanks for the offer, btw, I 'preciate it. human be in 23:52, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks, Human...I am chatting with Colin (who is totally in the dark, no power) right now about it. --TK /MyTalk 00:36, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Are you staying, then? That makes me happy. Can we call a truce?-AmesG 23:59, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Ames, if my slate is wiped clean like everyone in 1.0 got, and you remove the crap on other pages, so I am not indexed over and over, sure. Fair is fair.  --TK /MyTalk 00:36, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

On the use of asterisks and colons
TK, others have hinted a desire to have you use colons instead of asterisks to indent. Usually, asterisks are for creating bullet lists, while colons are for indenting on talk pages. I offer this advice in case you missed the more subtle suggestions. HG HeartOfGold talk 00:58, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Is there some rule? I use them for emphasis. Surely I am not missing some grammatical or punctuational rule!  And I would ask you not to post here again to make such "suggestions", okay?  --TK /MyTalk 02:21, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * This is not Conservapedia TK, we try to be tolerant of others here. While I admit his suggestion was a little pointless it was no need to reply in anger. You also forget that you lack administrative power here and that attempting to bully people off you talk page will not be as effective. -Icewedge 02:26, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * So asshole? No freedom of speech here?  I cannot say who can post here or not? My response was angry?  Colin has assured me I would not be treated any differently than any other user.  Crawl back into your hole. --TK /MyTalk 02:37, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * My apologies if you felt offended. -Icewedge 02:41, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

No, you need to apologize for harassing me, and promise it won't happen again. Otherwise his instructions to me were to email him, and let him know who is screwing with me. Wanna message me and see his whole statement to me? --TK /MyTalk 02:45, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Please TK E-Mail him if you feel the need. I have committed no crimes on RationalWiki thus far while in the last 10 minutes you have defied two of our admittedly rough rules. -Icewedge 02:49, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Have it your way. What rules are those?  I told both Sid and Colin I deleted the bullshit others posted here calling me names, etc., and they were fine with it.  Colin also told me others shouldn't have those kind of comments in other areas about me as well.  Hate to break the news to you, Wedgie,  but your masters don't seem to agree I am to be made a whipping boy here.  --TK /MyTalk 02:56, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * In what way have I made you the whipping boy? As to the rules you have broken; we don't allow personal attacks generally, unless calling me an asshole is a complement id say that rule was pretty much smashed. You should already know the second as i quoted it to you earlier. Finaly I doubt you are in contact with earthier of my two "masters". -Icewedge 03:03, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Whatever, Wedge. You came here, a liar, saying I posted in anger to Heart.  When I did no such thing.  You started it, and you continued it.  I also don't appreciate my talk page being stolen by another user, when all Trent asked was that it be archived properly, I guess he didn't communicate with Colin who said I had a right to delete attacks from other users here.  I can see how this place is going, and the petty people who care about asterisks, the same ones who made the same petty and small complaints on CP, they are here, and wouldn't you know it, they are also the meanest nastiest people here as well.  So, I will once again ask Trent or Colin to delete all of my pages and account here. Their word and assurances mean absolutely nothing to you, Wedge, and to others it seems, as I still see nasty, vile crap about me all over.  You are not people of your word, and deserve those who do come here. Not even Colin posting on the main page has deterred your harassment. What a shocker! --TK /MyTalk 03:21, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * If people are sending you abuse perhaps put it in a User_Talk:TK/abuse type page? I for one would want to see it documented - it shouldn't be happening. Airdish 03:00, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Airdish, thanks for the really kind post, and suggestion. I gave what I had to the right people here, the fair and honest ones. Look around all the user and talk pages, the ones on CP....some of these people here tie an anchor around someone and are far less forgiving than anyone they ever complained aboutat CP. The threats are dealt with, and over. I won't be posting about them here, or anywhere again.  --TK /MyTalk 03:21, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

This whole conversation is a good reason for this user not to be considered for sysop status. Could someone this abrasive over something so simple promote co-operation among users, or help defuse tense situations without resorting to bans and other blunt weaponry? The contents of this page do not speak well to this user's credibility should they become an authority figure, without considering any of their actions elsewhere. --Kels 05:05, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Rules are rules. And Trent and Colin did say anyone who was a member of 1.0 would be made one upon request. Those aren't my rules, or the ones they have now changed to. Don't hate the player, Kels, hate the game! --TK /MyTalk 06:15, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * So goaded and baited, and then attacked for something that shouldn't have even been posted, and you disqualify me for that? LOL...


 * You seem to suggest that you are "gaming the system", so to speak, getting things by virtue of the rules (others of which you have broken, see above) rather than merit. Aside from Sysop related concerns, this says very poor things about you as a person, and your concept of personal honour. --Kels 06:49, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Worse what it shows about you, and holding onto grudges when the management here has declared a clean slate for everyone. Your blog provides ample evidence of your personalization of this issue.--TK /MyTalk 07:44, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I think that would be me, although our names are somewhat similar. *waves to Kelseigh* --AKjeldsen 08:48, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Hey there. As for me, I was never a member of CP, nor did I run any socks.  I merely read the site and provided some of that traffic Andy is so proud of.  As for 1.0, I was a member for all of one day before the wipe, and never took part in any vandalism discussions.  In fact, I thought they were a bad idea on the whole.  I have snarked a bit on the blog, but I'm quite happy to leave that on the blog and not import it here.
 * And again, I note that your manner of "conflict resolution" is abysmal. Please try again. --Kels 13:32, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

'''Any editor, regardless of past actions, is welcome here with a clean slate. No user is unwelcome! Personal attacks and threats will result in punishment. Any users with problems may contact Colin at webmaster@rationalwiki.com.'''


 * While I cannot speak for others, I think it is fair to say that your "membership" in RW 1.0 was not at the same level of participation of those at whom the above statement was directed. You are welcome to be here, and I have done so at least three times, but I will say, please, let's move on now. If you see abuse, report it to Colin or Trent, or me or another sysop and we'll try to do something about it. I would rather no one baited you. At the same time, I would also like you try and stay calm and, dare I say, rational when these things do occur. I am not saying it is your fault, but some of this you do bring on yourself by way of your tone. It may take a few days for the bad feelings of those blocked/banned to subside. That is normal. Some of the folks here felt their wounds went pretty deep. In the meantime, if you are serious about being a sysop, a good place to begin on that road would be with a professional disposition in response to these attacks. Document anything and I will try and get to the bottom of things if there is cause. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 09:29, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree. Airdish 09:31, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Flippin, somehow I would be more reassured if you, as a Sysop, were posting in the other areas where I am being attacked and gang raped. As for my "level of participation" please show me in the old rule, where there was that qualifer? I am not nit-picking anymore than you have done at CP.  Please see my last post here: [] Believe me, I am trying! --TK /MyTalk 09:38, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I just got here. I will follow any links you give me, such as this one and see what I can determine. To be perfectly blunt with you, this may take more than three days to get past. Once again, you are welcome here, but in only our third or fourth day it is a lot to ask of people to completely "get over" any animosity, though I believe they are trying.


 * On the point concerning sysopery, that offer was extended to those who helped form the idea of what this new wiki would be. If you could point to where you'd made a contribution in that case, I could see where you have a point, but your level of "participation" was far different than that of others. Again, this site is still too green for your sysopship, but, in the future, once the community approves a method for selecting sysops, I would consider approving your request. In the meantime, why not set up a straw poll to get feedback. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 09:49, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Ahhh, so you are now in charge of policy? I shouldn't need a "straw poll" anymore than you did.  The offer was posted, there were absolutely no qualifers attached, other than one have been a member of 1.0.  Colin has confirmed I was.  This is yet another one of those "situations" you and other members here took delight in rubbing the noses of Sysops at WP in, no?  Now here all of you are, explaining "intent" post facto, never just admitting I am right. That I could respect.  This beating around the bush, well, you just hate coming off like those mean old SOB's at WP, don't you?  Yeah, so go back on your promise, I'm just a peon here, and you have all the power. Enjoy!  :p --TK /MyTalk 09:58, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Thank you for using colons. Anyway, I do not make policy, I was just attempting to articulate the angst. I put up a page for a poll. I do not decide these things and I see no reason to keep you from becomming a sysop--it just isn't my call. You are exactly right to bring up the contradiction, however, assigning it a value and saying it is emblematic of deceit on our part(s) is not correct. Rather, I don't think this is a situation anyone expected to deal with so soon, but I could be wrong. I am not lording anything over you and would hope in the future you would not accuse me of doing so. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 10:07, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Hey, Flipin, I do have a sense of humor, you know! Please remove the poll, ok?  Per the rules, which everyone admits to, it is saying my membership here is second class.  Did someone make a poll about you? No. It verges on a attack, putting that up, because the rule clearly didn't specify participation of anything else. It will just be another magnet for haters to rehash what is supposed to be my clean slate. --TK /MyTalk 10:13, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't see that as a poll, more where we can discuss some of the unease that granting Sysop status might make some people feel, given their previous experience. You can read where I stand, and in no way would it make your status second class, at all (in my eyes anyway). Airdish 10:48, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think your membership here is "second class," but your request for sysop needs to be addressed by those in our little gang. That is all I wanted to do. Relax. I think you might just get what you wanted. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 11:09, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

MY objections to TK as a Sysop and questions for him.
It has been previously stated that this place is a mobocracy. As one of the mob, I have some points to make and questions to ask. I don’t see you, TK, as a sysop for the following reasons.


 * 1.	You have claimed to have been the subject of some malicious action by some people who you further claimed to have some connection with this place. You have then used this claim in an effort to coerce a position as sysop.  This is a good reason to not make you a sysop.  (This is not true. I asked to be a Sysop, because I was a member of RW 1.0, and per the rules, was told all I needed to do was ask for it to get it, just like the other Sysops here now.)(I think that we can reasonably assume that the reference was to active members)--Bob_M (talk) 10:28, 24 May 2007 (CDT) Well since ColinR doesn't "reasonably" assume that, and he made the offer, what makes you say that, Bob_M? Your own personal bias?--TK /MyTalk 20:42, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * 2.	Your apparent attempt to persuade a single individual that you should be a sysop indicates that you do not understand the bottom-up hierarchy in place at this site. Your failure to understand the basic hierarchy of the site is a reason you should not be a sysop.
 * 3.	As far as I am aware, you have not made a single constructive contribution to any article. The contributions you have made in other areas have all been extremely negative.  This is another reason why you should not be a sysop.
 * 4.	(Removed by Bob M under "Clean Slate" policy.)

(Removed by Bob M under "clean slate" policy.) So I invite you to answer these questions in an effort to persuade me of your suitability. These are my questions and other users may have different questions.


 * 1	(Removed by Bob M under clean slate policy.)
 * 2	Why, exactly, are you here? In what areas/ways do you feel you could best serve the community as a contributor?
 * 3	How would the use of sysop power assist you in serving the community?
 * 4	What is your opinion of the objectives of the site - especially the one which reads: “Refuting and analyzing the anti-science movement, ideas and people.”
 * 5	I assume you are in agreement with the site’s guidelines, but could you confirm this. Could you also mention if you are NOT in agreement with any of the developing consensuses in the proposed guidelines section?

Please note that simply answering these questions will not necessarily gain my support. It is the nature of your responses in which I am interested.

You may argue that other sysops have not had to go through this process, and you would be right. (Removed by Bob M under clean slate policy.)

You may argue that the community should not ask you to do this. Well, these are my questions and not the communitie's. Some may feel that these questions are inappropriate others may wish to support them. Nevertheless, if you wish to persuade me then these are the questions that I would like to see answers to. Should you decline to answer than this will also help me to form my opinion.--Bob_M (talk) 04:00, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

I have edited the above to bring it into line with the "clean slate" policy. I have also made a suggestion that the clean slate policy should be included in the guidelines.--Bob_M (talk) 04:55, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Bob, I answered the policy guideline discussion questions. The other ad hominem attacks on this page speak for themselves and the kind of "fair" treatment many here have in mind.  When one is an Administrator at any site, wiki or not, one comports them-self in accordance to the wishes of the management.  That is true at MySpace where I am also one of the senior Admins. ColinR was a Sysop at CP.  I can find many complaints about him, before I even came to the site, same for Sid. There will always be those who think they are special cases, who will believe nothing other than they were "singled out". The more active the Admin is, the more complaints there will be.  In the case of CP, with its problematic religious and ideological ideals, that in and of itself ratchets up the animosities and verbal assaults.  I submit to hold me responsible for doing my job there, as best I could, with the full approval and consent of the Owner, is in and of itself an ad hominem attack upon me.   It is much like smoking a joint with a cop, then accusing him of abuse of power when he arrests a dope dealer.  Duh! He was doing his job, as ordered to.   I hope you will accept this sincere attempt to defend myself, and I hope you will think better in the future of publicly cornering someone who supposedly has a clean slate.  Unless you have asked the same question of everyone else who has asked to be a Sysop, that is. --TK /MyTalk 05:14, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Aren't you the only one to ask to be a Sysop that wasn't part of the original cabal? And as I said above, your manner here, a very important quality in a Sysop in and of itself, doesn't inspire confidence. --Kels 05:32, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Kels, this page, and the archive are full of ad hominem attacks on me from other users. So are user pages and discussion pages. Even the proposed guidelines discussion contain personal attacks on me, ad hominem attacks.  So many that Colin posted on the notice board.  So I would submit my contributions here, however small, are done under great duress and certainly I have been treated completely different, in spite of my assured clean slate, than anyone else who has joined. I was user len on RW 1.0, btw. Never caused a problem, never attacked a soul.  Colin and Trent both know of this.  If my answers above do not satisfy you, as they would most anyone being fair, IMO, I am sorry.  --TK /MyTalk 05:42, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Again, I see little in your response to me that gives me confidence in your abilities as a Sysop. So far, you have failed repeatedly at conflict resolution, basic technical skills and simple civility.  As you have said, a Sysop will often find themselves opposed, and often in less than civil terms.  Is it the place of a Sysop to respond in similar or worse terms?  Will this defuse the situation and bring resolution to the conflict?  I doubt it.
 * But I shall try to be fair, you haven't been here long. I ask you please sir, could you point me to diffs on this wiki where you have demonstrated the positive skills required of a Sysop?  Blaming others for your problems only goes so far, so please show me your positives and I may reconsider my early opinion. --Kels 06:44, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually Kels, no. I don't really care what you think.  Nothing I do, as witness your personalization of every issue that concerns me, disqualifies you, IMO.  Keep posting, though.  I have already heard from one member here who thinks some of you are coming on a little strong and nasty like. The fact is, like it or not, I was an original member here.  It was promised any such could ask and get Sysop. Not my rules.  We will see if the people who run this site are as good as their words or not. I haven't made this an issue.  Only those, like you, who cannot let go of the past.  --TK /MyTalk 07:55, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I note that you have not answered the questions I asked and I shall form my opinions based on your failure to respond and on your activity on this site. Thank you.--Bob_M (talk) 10:25, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I must agree with Bob. Ad-hom, avoidance and conflict escalation/creation are not the hallmarks of a good Sysop.  I'll keep my eyes open, but so far I've seen nothing at all that would recommend you. --Kels 13:36, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Who is this? I prefer posts left here be signed, otherwise go make yourself a page somewhere to discuss this, but not here. Thank you. --TK /MyTalk 03:46, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

My apologies. I forgot to sign.--Bob_M (talk) 04:00, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Any editor, regardless of past actions, is welcome here with a clean slate. No user is unwelcome! Personal attacks and threats will result in punishment. Any users with problems may contact Colin at webmaster@rationalwiki.com.

Yawn
Stretches, puts feet up, yawns...DocSock 07:46, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks for that warm welcome, Sock! Now put your feet down off the damn furniture (It's Henredon!) and go sleep in the park! --TK /MyTalk 08:52, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I think this type of statement is why you are having difficulty. See my above post for an explanation. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 09:32, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree with TK, Doc needs to get a job, or sleep in the park where he belongs. --PalMD-Talk 09:36, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * See? Even Flipping cannot distinguish between good natured fun, and something else, per his post.  I guess he doesn't understand, Doc, we have had many delightful conversations, without rancor.  Oh well.  Some people just want to think the worst. --TK /MyTalk 09:41, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm sorry, obviously I misunderstood. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 09:51, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Don't count me out of the race...i'm sure I'll make some (unwarranted) assumptions about your motives at some point.--PalMD-Talk 09:54, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * LMAO! Me too Doc! But I will never use that back alley abortion shit against you! A guy has to earn a living! --TK /MyTalk 10:06, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

It's the internet
Not ®eal-life®. If one's dog should (God forbid) die today, this wiki and CP and WP would all likely fade into the far background in your grief. I suggest we all take some time today AWAY from computers and wikis and simply do some livin'.

BTW, TK, welcome to RW 1.1 (or 2.0) or whatever we're calling it (today).
 * Cracker 10:14, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * LOL! Nods.  Good idea, Rob. Peace. --TK /MyTalk 10:18, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Brushes off his coat hangers...looking for soap...aww, forget it...washed last week.DocSock 10:20, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

"The Rules"
TK we have no rules, there is no policy to game. We have "standards" we try and meet up to, thats it, this place is run by its users. So a deal I made with a few of them from the old RW to become sysops does not become sacrosanct. The community has to decide they want you as a SYSOP. Tmtoulouse 11:13, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Ahhh, so my being a member of 1.0, means nothing, and I am not afforded the same courtesy and respect, same level of "citizenship" as the other original 1.0 members. Thanks for letting me know so directly, Trent. When I chatted with Colin, he wanted to think about that, but perhaps you two have had a chance to talk about it, and decided. I wasn't gaming anything, that was another ad hominem attack on me by another member, and I resent your saying so. I was a member, you posted the rule, and I took you up on it. Spin it anyway you want Trent, you are reneging, and only because it is me. --TK /MyTalk 11:26, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * There are no rules, this place is run by the community of active editors. There are many active editors that question whether you should be a sysop. Therefore, until the community comes to a consensus your not a sysop. If the community here had the same reservations about any other RW 1.0 member the same thing would have happened. But since they were active and everyone like them there were no issues. You were not active, and people have legitimate problems with you that need to be resolved. You need to reverse your thinking about site structure to work well here. It is the user base that makes the decisions here not the "admins." Tmtoulouse 11:30, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Dude, It wasn't me who made the flat-out, unequivable post, that was you! Get off my ass. You made the commitment, not me. If you want out of it now, and are saying the offer has expired, fine!  But stop making like my request, as a 1.0 member is somehow unreasonable.  A thinking guy like you, one would assume considered all the ramifications before making the statement. As I told Colin, I didn't want it.  Check with him.  But you have to admit Trent, the idea sure proves the people here are not one bit better than at CP or WP.  Same bile, hate and hypocrisy even if they claim your slate is wiped clean, none of you mean it. --TK /MyTalk 11:37, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Dude, we obviously mean it: see?. Several people here are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt no matter how childishly you behaved on CP. And before I get a lot of grief from you about an "attack," I think it is pretty fair to say many of your posts there raise the adverb to the level of fact. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 11:41, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * BTW, such behavior on CP (and much, much less) would have already earned you a ban if we were as you've described us. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 11:44, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * See my post above, Flippin. I find your poll to be insulting and demeaning, and I asked several hours ago for you to take it down. So much for respect and working together, eh? You just wanted to make yet another place where you and your buddies could bash TK, regardless of some people being fair. Different wiki name, same bullshit. Trent and Colin absolutely promised a clean slate for me, and here is Trent and you talking about my past, as if they didn't mean their words at all. Oh, wait, they didn't!  So they are exactly the same as those old shitty corrupt and lying CP Sysops!  LMAO! --TK /MyTalk 11:48, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Everybody, calm down, and hold off on the insults; both sides. Flippin's got a point: RW is behind TK's sysopship 7-3 at current standing. I say we let TK become an sysop. RW will then have done what CP didn't - employ someone who's open hostile to it. Let's judge TK on his actions as a RW sysop, rather than on his style as a CP sysop. --<font color="#222222" face="Times New Roman">Wik <font color="#444444" face="Times New Roman">i <font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman">nterpreter '''woo!


 * TK, I will continue to come to your defense if necessary but please don't tar everyone with the same brush, there are many people who want you to have Sysop status. If you don't want us to think bad of you because of andy's actions or policies, don't think you can do the exact same thing here because of the buerocrats actions here. (though I am by no means comparing the two situations as equivalent.) Airdish 11:47, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * My objection to TK being a sysop is based completely on his behavior here. I think we are bending over backwards to be fair to him.--Bob_M (talk) 11:52, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Airdish, bless you! But I am not tarring everyone, I know who is fair and nice, and who isn't. I see who is making sly remarks and planting false assumptions. And it isn't right for any of you to keep reminding me of how different this place is from CP.  Didn't anyone read my posts above or in the CP Sysop talk?  I haven't even looked at the poll, as I assumed Flipping would rise above putting me and my bullshit "clean slate" on trial here anymore than it has been, without let-up, for 16 hours or so.  I am flattered and indeed even humbled that anyone here would even consider me for the position.  But it is pretty obvious, given Trent's complete disregard for what Colin told me, that I could be made a Sysop, and do absolutely nothing at all, and some Bureaucrat would find a reason to can me.  Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see enough members here yet, beside those who are supporting me in that straw poll, and it isn't something official, who would be willing to give me a fair deal. Even in the guidelines discussion there are personal attacks on me! The well is poisoned for me by those people here who want me gone, and it by their well-sprinkled references to my past, they ensure that new members for months will be turned against me.  But then, that is their plan, sadly. --TK /MyTalk 12:00, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I have to say, TK, I really don't see all this anger on RW's part. In fact, I'm going to stop posting here because I kind of get the idea that your whole purpose might just be to waste our time. I'll think about this again in a week--if it is still an issue. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 12:08, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, do you really want to be a sysop, or are you just baiting? Tmtoulouse has said

'The community has to decide they want you as a SYSOP.'

Flippin then proceeded to post a poll to the community. Message? 'Do you want TK to be a sysop?' 7 people then come on and say 'yes, I want him to be a sysop', and 3 say 'no'. It's not 'insulting or demeaning'; it's an indictment of the support for your sysopship. I'd say that they were pretty good.--<font color="#222222" face="Times New Roman">Wik <font color="#444444" face="Times New Roman">i <font color="#666666" face="Times New Roman">nterpreter '''woo!


 * We are being exceedingly fair, and his accusation that we will not afford him a "clean slate" seems counterproductive to his claim that we are up to our old tricks, or whatever. But, let's see what he does with power, that's my position. If he uses it wisely, even cautiously, then fine. If not, well, we'll see if that time comes. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 11:57, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * For what it's worth I would oppose the appointment of TK as a sysop. His behavior at CP shows that whatever the rules are he doesn't follow them but creates his own.  Note his bullying tone to a fellow CP sysop Conservative:
 * You might do it with others, but you will not do it with me. You learn to email or message and ask, understood?)
 * I have been blocked by him but he never had the grace to to respond to a reasonable email request. I had not committed any vandalism but just questioned his decision or asked for a reasonable explanation. Sorry Dude You're Blocked! - end of story. If he breaks the rules on his home turf how can we expect him to act as a responsible sysop here.  However, if we follow Wikipedias procedures we could let him be sysop and see how he behaves.  If he abuses his power then it should be able to have him removed.  Unlike at CP where only the boss can desysop WP can ban for abuse of power by the sysop panel -! wish that were available at CP.  There are several reasonable at CP who dish out warnings before they block ad infintum but I can't recall any official warnings from TerryK. Mad Min 12:11, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * OMFG!! I left that edit note for CONSERVATIVE!!!
 * ROFLMFAO! --TK /MyTalk 12:20, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

It's nothing to do with that
I just don't see an end to this so I'm withdrawing. You know my position. That's all, no offence or harm meant. Airdish 12:27, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I've got "don't feed the troll" vibe coming on. Let's drop it for a while, please. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 12:28, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * What I see is, I asked you to NOT make a poll. Now, after profusely, and sincerely thanking Airdish at every turn, I am somehow made wrong. Almost as if I was set up.  Flipping, if you have a troll vibe from me, please kindly block me, infinitely. Please. --TK /MyTalk 12:41, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, please, all I was saying was that I was finished with the conversation - you were not made wrong at all, believe me. I appreciate your thanks but I have nothing further to add. That is all. I do hope you are made a Sysop. I won't respond further (to this area of debate) - any further issues you have are with other users. Airdish 12:44, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

You said you were being attacked
I put up the page to prove you were not. If you can't take criticism, I can't fix that. I put up the poll so you could see not everyone was out to get you. Maybe it will be official, who knows? For now, I think it is fair--since you asked to be a sysop--to ask the community what they think about that. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 13:15, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Whatever, dude. I know (I think) your heart was in the right place, but dang! You see what happened.  If there is ever a "next" time, just please give a fellow a heads-up, and allow him to consent, okay?  ;-)  --TK /MyTalk 13:18, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

TK, on Conservapedia_Talk:Sysops, you said: "Sorry, Kel. Your own posts and blog show you to be every one of those things. Well, there is that old saying we are blind to our own faults. I strongly suggest you start abiding by the rules here, and cease ignoring my clean slate, and the personal remarks about me. If not, you should be removed as a Sysop, IMO. --TK /MyTalk 09:24, 24 May 2007 (CDT)" I thought I'd answer here, so it wouldn't drown in the rest of the discussion: Firstly, I am not a sysop here, nor do I want to be one. What I say is only my own opinion and not representative of RationalWiki. Secondly, I have not ignored your clean slate. As I see it, your slate was wiped clean the moment you registered as a user here. However, I don't think that should give you an indefinite free license to behave as you wish. It seems to me that you have continued to write unacceptable behavior on that clean slate, and that's what I'm reacting against. And thirdly, I'm afraid that you still have me confused with a different user (Kels). --AKjeldsen 17:31, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Just confirming what User:AKjeldsen said, we're two different people. Heck, we're likely in two different countries.  I dunno if it's possible, but if there's any way you can check the history of an IP, I'd lay money that my IP has never been attached to an account at CP.  Not that I particularly care about reinstatement or anything, I feel no need to go over there. --Kels 17:59, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Surrealness
Wow, TK! Feel like a man now? That's gotta be a new standard of pathetic, banning me as a sock from somewhere I've never been. LOL!! And a whole two minutes after I explained that to you, that's funny stuff. --Kels 14:01, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Sorry, another wrong assumption and totally fictious statement. As any admin should be able to tell you, I havent been online here for about 9 hours now, so never saw any of the above.  Just another example that people will think whatever they will, no matter what the facts are.  If you have never gone to CP, feel no need to go there, odd you would somehow know about your IP being blocked, eh?  I will unblock it, however, taking you at your word. --TK /MyTalk 19:55, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Just to clarify...TK, are you denying that you blocked IP address 67.70.18.43 at conservapedia this morning, about 6.5 hours ago? --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 20:02, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * No. And since the user has posted above he never has been there, and didn't see any need to come, does it make any difference, actually?  If I blocked George Bush's IP from CP, since its farily certain he has never heard of it or been there, is some harm done to him?  Actually truth is always a let-down from conspiracy.  I was totally confused between the names above, and the nick Kels, the other guy with the AKjeldsen, so I went to check, putting in the IP because if it was the guy who had been there, the block would have come up, it didn't, and I got an IM about something else, and then literally fell asleep in my chair.  But, like I said, since the person above doesn't want to come to CP, and has never been there, his block of six hours didn't harm a fly even. All it did was show feeling defensive about constant attacks on some wiki, and via IM's and not enough sleep, makes for one paranoid idiot here at my house, lol. ;-) --TK /MyTalk 20:11, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * OK. So you're denying that that block was in response to Kels's accidental IP-address post here, also about 6.5 hours ago? --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 20:14, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I couldn't care less about you unblocking it, honestly. And I found out because I tried to find a page that was apparently deleted, and it gave me the block page, totally unexpected.  I thought that stuff only appeared when you logged on.  And guess what, it had your name on the page, as this screenshot clearly shows.  Just two minutes after I'd accidentally posted here without logging in, just posting by IP.
 * Also, I'm a girl. =P --Kels 20:18, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I said why I did it, and what happened, Jtl. And Kels, sorry for not knowing your gender. Hard to tell from Reno here.  What is the need for screen shots for something I don't deny happening? There wasn't anything snister going on, other than my sleep deprived paranoia and confusion over a name with a K in it, lol. --TK /MyTalk 20:21, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually, I think our posts crossed paths, before it looked like you were denying it. In any case, it was a bit surreal, came off as an attack, and flew in the face of the whole "we don't block simply for membership on RW" thing.  But apparently you were attacking someone else, which still isn't a good thing, but it's less incomprehensible.  --Kels 20:24, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * This is what I hate about the Internet. The other person, is someone who has been already banned from CP.  No attack on him, checking to see if it was the same person or not.  My only "bad" was falling asleep before undoing your IP block. But since you have said here you dont want to go there or be a member, what was the "damage"? I was confused about names, is all!  There is no conspiracy!  --TK /MyTalk 20:31, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I never claimed to be damaged, more taken aback than anything. Only reason I go to CP is as a viewer, not a participant, so it's no big deal from here. The claim of 9 hours when it clearly wasn't is a bit odd, though. --Kels 20:35, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

It is only "odd" to people either seeking to continue a needless argument, or seeking to somehow make more of something then there was. Maybe your brain is young, and more nimble than mine at 56 calculating the hours I was gone from here. Big deal! --TK /MyTalk 20:37, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * *shrugs* I dunno, you seemed to point out the time in claiming that you never got the IP from here, so it seemed relevant. I never noticed until Jtl pointed it out in any case, so I dunno if I'm all that nimble. --Kels 20:40, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I never claimed NOT to have gotten it here!! I said I used it to check if you and that other guy were the same person! My comment about the time was about not seeing the posts here asking about what I had done. Jebus!  Can we shake heads now? I'm often an idiot, I admit it.  And I speak my mind too much. I'm a man.  ;-) --TK /MyTalk 20:44, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * "As any admin should be able to tell you, I havent been online here for about 9 hours now, so never saw any of the above." That sounds an awful lot like a denial of having been here to see it to me.  But who am I gonna believe, you or my own lyin' eyes? --Kels 20:51, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Ugh, I'm an Aries and a Nova Scotian, which makes me too stubborn for my own good sometimes. You're right, I should drop it.  Ignore the above, if you can. --Kels 20:54, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Feel free to blame my reading comprehension, but I'm still not understanding what you're denying. If you're admitting that the block was in response to Kels's IP address post here less than 7 hours ago (as I think you are), how were you able to see it if you haven't been here in 9 hours?  And if that's just a miscalculation, and you were here and did see it, then why did you mention how long you hadn't been here in the first place?  --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 20:25, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Assume whatever you want. I explained how it happend, and why.  That doesn't make any difference to you.  You see conspiracies about someone who doesn't want to be a member at CP, said they didn't care to ever go there.  --TK /MyTalk 20:29, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Begging Station
Nice idea, here is the station for begging unblocking :D --Aulis Eskola 15:11, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Block
I blocked you for one minute for using the word "demand" here. Please keep in mind that I block following the Fibonacci sequence, which will be explained on my talk page when I clean it up later tonight. You will probably be unblocked by the time I click on "save"... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 20:43, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Chuckles. Okay so it was a cheap shot on my part for the (un) bit. We've both done it. You made me actually laugh with that, so I owe you a brandy. Something tells me we'd have more fun talking in person than here. ;-) The guys below won't get it. --TK /MyTalk 20:51, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Bad human :)! Yes you were right about unblocking before save though. Tmtoulouse 20:50, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * While I can't stand the kid, I'm not sure blocking TK for any amount of time is a good idea. He's annoying, ignorant, offensive and juvenile, but if we start blocking him because he pisses us off, he's got ground for a "pot/kettle/black" type argument.  Besides, if we keep the current course of conversation going, he's likely to explode.  --Huey gunna getcha 20:48, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * We're discussing this on his talk page, I'm not sure he likes that. he probably won't like your characterization of him on here, either.  I didn't block him because he pissed me off, I did it because he used a very uncollaborative phrase - "demand".  Also, I don't know if you've noticed, but every fight he has picked gotten into since getting here has been the fault of others beating him up.  As far as the pot/kettle thing, I am quite comfortable with my actions being reasonable and fair.  If you think I may be overstepping or misinterpreting or full of BS ;) can we take it up on my talk page so as not to clutter his up any more than I just did? (just copy these last two comments over there) <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 20:57, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Just to be clear - I'm all about discussing him on his talk page. I don't give a damn what he does or does not like.  As far as I'm concerned, he can stick a fist up his ass.  --Huey gunna getcha 21:09, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Why are we worried about him using "pot/kettle/black" any more than anyone else? Has he got some sort of credibility elsewhere that I'm not aware of? --Kels 20:49, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Nah, as it stands now, he's got 0 credibility. As it stands, though, we're all about openness and all that jazz.  Our main gripe with TK and the policy he supported at CP was their determination to block anyone that pissed them off.  If we ever become guilty of that, he might actually find himself articulating an argument he could win.  --Huey gunna getcha 20:57, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * "Keeping an open mind is a virtue, but not so open that your brains fall out." James Oberg --Kels 21:13, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Are you saying that my brains can fall out of my mind? That's so ... trippy.  --Huey gunna getcha 21:16, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Trippy,...... yeah.... brains.... look up and to the left.... yummy brains.... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 23:31, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * What do we want? Braaaaaaains...
 * When do we want 'em? Braaaaaaains...


 * Speed kills, man. --Kels 21:21, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Yes, Huey, it can also be arugued that one joining CP, they supported its goals as well, huh? Since all policies could be seen before joining. So, if a person didn't agree to their idealogy and rules, the reason they were joining is? By all the attacks you guys have proven yourself at least the same as CP. --TK /MyTalk 21:03, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Try again TK, that didn't make any sense at all. Seriously, I read the shit 3 times and I have only a vague clue of what you're trying to get at.  Apparently senility hits at 56, that must be a bitch.  --Huey gunna getcha 21:07, 24

May 2007 (CDT)


 * Yet another personal attack, Huey? What hold over management to you have to get a free pass around the rules? First ageist remarks, and now senility? Must be nice to be so elite you are allowed to drive people off, which is what you have done with me.  Lates. Maybe this place will oneday live up to what it says.  Right now, it's just a hater hangout. --TK /MyTalk 21:32, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Kels, they love my ratings is all....drives people to the site, lol. This page has been accessed 1,481  1,505 1,555 times!</strike --TK /MyTalk 20:54, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Does it count when it's just four people with OCD? XD --Kels 21:15, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * RROOTTFFLLLLLMMAAOOOO please guys, keep injecting the lulz, it makes this readable. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 23:31, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Try to really think about it: why? User can support some basic ideas, but working practices are problems. Leadership is the worst problem on site. Few people manage to get ideas of sysops and stand for unfair and autocratic behavior of sysops. I one is voluntary working why should one stand for that kind of odd behavior?! --Aulis Eskola 15:33, 29 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Huey, thanks for the kid bit. At 56 I'll take any comment at all alluding to youthfulness! :p


 * This is the second most viewed page on this site!Bohdan 21:11, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 *  This page has been accessed 1,481 1,505  1,555  2,010  2,110 2,160 times! They hate me, but they love my page hits, it lifts the sites numbers, Bohdan. ;-)--TK /MyTalk 21:37, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Wanting attention is a normal human attribute. Congratulations.   HG HeartOfGold talk 21:47, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * We're giving you attention, eh? You know, the kind you and Aschlafly claim liberals want.  Enjoy it.  Heart  ♥  Gold tx 03:28, 26 May 2007 (CDT)


 * But HOG....you claimed to be Conservative! Oh well, terminally confused by you as it is, but certainly don't think of you as an enemy. --TK/MyTalk 22:02, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, it is you who are (still) confused if you still think I am a liberal. Heart  ♥  Gold tx 23:21, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * HOG, by your post above it confused me, sorry. --TK/MyTalk 23:29, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Okay, thanks. Heart  ♥  Gold tx 23:57, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Questions from Ames
Are you still in the running for Sysop? And, looking back at Recent Changes a while ago, you seem to have thought I insulted you. Did I? If so, apologies... didn't mean to...  By the way, on the sysop thing, while I'm glad to have you as a contributor, I think you should hold back on the sysop request. Just my advice, but I personally would be interested in supporting you later, just not now, is that okay?-AmesG 21:48, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Ames, I never was in the running, buddy. It was yet another contrived deal on the part of others.  I was tweaking Trent and Colin about their promise to Sysop anyone who was a member of 1.0 just by requesting it.  Get it?  Colin and I laughed about it, but he knew I had a point, eh?  So, just by posting my request, it put them all into panic mode.  I never asked for, and I did all but beg Flippin not to put it up, and posted again, before anyone had "voted" to take it down. I hope at least you see what happened and was going on.  Same deal as at CP with the Sysop vote, eh?  In fact I told Colin in IM that if it was offered, I would turn it down, but it might make for some good heart-attack inducing moments for him to post the offer, and we let some time elapse before I turned it down. I know most of the users here will never let go of their idea I run CP as I want, for me to ever be given a fair shake.  Still, I am feeling humbled and quite a bit flattered by those who did think enough of me, or the idea of it, by voting for me.  I would have made a concerted effort to make them proud of me. It made me very emotional, seeing that some stranger was thinking better of me than I feel about myself.
 * What the whole deal did, though, was make quite clear many here are totally incapable of letting go of shit. In talking with Trent and Colin, and some others here they warned me of, and I recognized it would be a rough go here, for a while.  I never expected or envisioned the hatred of some of them here, but you know by now I'm kind of unaware of things like that. I had hoped (foolishly) that this place could be someplace I could do essays, and articles, instead of always being involved with religious war bullshit. It drags you down, as you well know. I was even attacked by someone here for sticking it to Conservative! Thats just how much people wanna twist shit here to hate me, lol.  Anyway, this place is pretty new as 2.0.  I'm sure it will take some time for the old hands to give up on just trying to make this a place to hate CP, and new people to arrive and slowly change it.  Perhaps into a real, alternative to what else is out there!
 * Keep me informed of what's going on, ok? I don't remember thinking you were attacking me, so it couldn't have been that important, eh?  I misjudged you many times AmesG, Colin too, and a few others I have recently heard from. I won't mention them here, to avoid them getting hate by proxy.  This my very public apology for that.  I was very wrong, and ask your forgiveness for something I can't ever really make up to you, or perhaps even have the right to ask for....goodbye for now, and have a great Memorial Day! --TK /MyTalk 22:22, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

TK, I'm confused! Are you leaving? I hope you're not. I understand a lot of people are mad at you, and Id id get the "joke," but if you give it time, it will all fade. In the meantime, I hope you do start writing those essays you talked about. You're absolutely free to do it. Just ignore the critics, and start editing. I'll look forward to it. I hope you stick around!-AmesG 22:29, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, Have you ever noticed that whenever you sit behind a keyboard, some idiot starts typing? It sounds like English; it even looks like English, but I can't understand a word you're blabbering. Is there a gibberish translator in the house? I can't make head nor nail of that uber-babble you flung onto the screen during your latest spasmodic seizure.  Your response is a tedious, homogenised, chameleon-esque scribble which amounts to nothing more than the demented cacophonous racket of a drunk lunatic banging loudly on kitchen pots and pans. How about putting that into proper syntax, form, and grammar so that I can at least understand what you are saying before I dismiss it?  Try learning elementary grammar before attempting to inflict your next literary abomination on this message board.


 * What do you do for a living? You are living, aren't you? Oh well, as the late Douglas Adams said: "You live and learn. At any rate, you live."


 * You are about as entertaining as a child's inflatable punching toy. You bop it, it springs back, you bop it again and you forget it ever existed. It slowly deflates in an unused corner, then one day you throw it away. Looking at you, Darwin would NOT be pleased to see how inefficiently evolution sometimes works. You couldn't get a clue during clue mating season in a field of clues if you smeared your body in musk and did the clue mating dance.


 * Now, if you care to apologize for wasting my shamefully wasted time, I'll consider accepting it. 85.195.123.29 02:33, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd like to know who posted this. This is defenitely not the kind of tone we want. <font color="#999900">Həlios <font color="#ff0000">-speak to me! 03:05, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I see this as vandalism, something TK ought to archive when he returns. I don't know that we're going to go bowling anytime soon, but I think enough of TK not to write this sort of bullshit. <font color="GREEN">Flippin <font color="ORANGE">;-) 09:36, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Let the unwelcoming Wandalism begin
I think the history files will prove that this user was not wronged. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 02:29, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Whatever TKs reasoning
At least have the balls to log in before you vandalise his page. Airdish 02:50, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Dang, I'd take credit for that rant, but it wasn't me. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 02:55, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I was thinking about this person last night. I think the user wanted to be perma-blocked.  He did everything possible to annoy people and in some cases succeeded.  Why?  I think he wanted to get a perma-block so that he could say that we "are as bad as WP" for banning people with dissident voices.
 * Incidentally, in a message above he says something like "at least as bad as CP" - presumably this was an admision that CP is bad?--Bob_M (talk) 04:56, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Vandalism
Not a personal attack, we have a policy of saving vandalism for posterity thats all. Tmtoulouse 10:57, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * And your buraucrat changing my link to "dipstick" is what? Trent that wasn't vandalism, you created it.--TK/MyTalk 10:59, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Not true, review your page history, another user vandalized your page, I reverted it, and saved the vandalized version. Tmtoulouse 11:01, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Cool! So I can vandalize too? --TK/MyTalk 11:04, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yep, the vandalism gets reverted, and moved to a vandalism archive linked to the talk page of the page vandalized. Tmtoulouse 11:05, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * So, revert the vandalism above. The unsigned post. And your Bureaucrat's vandalism. --TK/MyTalk 11:08, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Conservapedia: You think I'm trolling? === ==

Exactly what did I say that in the cp:Keith Olberman article that sounded like "Vandalism and trolling" to you? Unless you genuinely think that basing American policy on a fictional TV character is a good idea, in which case I'll be sure to base my next article on the important political lessons we can all learn from the Easter Bunny. Darth Vader, and James Bond. Sheesh! --Ghoti 20:32, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Ghoti, there are faster ways to contact me then here. Unless someone had pasted your post to me, I might have missed it.  My AIM is listed on my page over there, and my email is enabled.  I have removed your block, but I think you are misreading what was said there.... --TK/MyTalk 21:58, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I try to log in, and it says my IP is still blocked. --Ghoti 22:21, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * No idea, and this is really stupid, communicating here. Use the CP mail or AIm after this.  The appropriate logs all show the block was removed.  I have asked DanH to double check for me....and I used the search in blocked users to bring you up, clicked unblock, but it didnt bring up your IP block....and he corrected it.  It would have been done much faster had you used IM or the CP email. --TK/MyTalk 22:41, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Whatever you did, that got it--thanks. I'm sure I'll be rebanned in a matter of seconds for sassing RobS, though.  And despite your protestations, the fact that posting here gets a response means that this is just fine when I'm not in a hurry. --Ghoti 16:59, 28 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Whoa now. Wait a minute...You can't use the Lord Vader's name in vain around here. To even speak it is to risk eternal burning of the sensitive areas for an eternity.Prof0705 20:36, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Conservapedia Edit
This here. Is it cp policy to edit things like this in such a sly, deceitful manner? αιρδισΗταλκ 06:07, 29 May 2007 (CDT)


 * No, their official policy is to revert and delete anything that offends their delicate sensibilities, then block the user. Actually showing a little subtlety is kind of new.  (And it's NOT DECEIT.  only Liberals can be deceitful, according to Aschlafly!) --Gulik 16:28, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Maybe they call it "extraordinary interpretation", rather than lying. MiddleMan
 * I'm pretty sure that you just doctored that link up somehow to make it seem like a deceitful ploy. However, we all know that Liberals are intrinsically evil and it is all probably fake.Prof0705 19:15, 29 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Here's another one:

http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:LunarStorm&diff=next&oldid=176380

sneaky TK! LOL
 * Indeed. Are we to assume that at least one of those two troublemakers (LunarStorm, FreakyM) is not a sock of Helena Bonham Carter?  Cool, a fresh wellspring of sanity invading CP!  By the way, we need to add a link to our site, or at least an article, on uncyclopedia. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 20:27, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

I like this one:
 * Warned now by one of our most Liberal Sysops and most Conservative. Not a good omen, Sevenstring. Your next step is to get my attention, and I assure you there is only one outcome from that possible. Do we understand one another? --Sysop-TK /MyTalk 21:25, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Sorry to see you go. Godspeed to you.Prof0705 20:15, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Ah my mistake. Thought that the damn system lost it. Hate it when that happens.Prof0705 20:22, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Shh..it's ok. Have some candy. It has nougat......Prof0705 20:37, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

TK is 100% Rubber Stamped
This person has blocked me over at CP for being "Sub Human Cabal". Spica 16:47, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Have you ever been Human's "sub"? I hear TK is into all that dominance stuff. --Kels 16:49, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * E-ew, gross! No I have not! Spica 16:56, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Hey, I treat my slaves very well, you whiner. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 17:00, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Puts a whole new face on the section title, don't it? --Kels 17:11, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I didn't feel the need to go there. I worry about you, Kels.  Not much, but I do. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 18:22, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't know about TK - some of his block reasons have had a - dare I say it - ironic ring. Like he's poking fun? I think we've infected him - in 24 hours, he'll rise as a liberal. --<font color="#000088">ויִ<font color="#220066">כִּ<font color="#550044"> נ<font color="#770022">תֶּ<font color="#aa0000">ר ֶפּ רֶ תֵּ ר  שְׁלֹום!
 * I thought rising after three days was traditional? --Kels 17:27, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * He's already getting more liberal. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 17:25, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * His self-styled "admin" work is to do the work of the "people in charge". No problem with that, in any tradtional top-down organization, really.  Problem here was, we ain't got no organizational chart.  Just Kels commenting on every single article, hehe.  So he did not know whose will to enforce with an iron fist.  Here, of course, we enforce our own wills with a - wait for it - rubber stamp (insert groan).  It is indeed likely that he was infected a bit with our freewheelin' style and general lack of respect for authority.  <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 18:22, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Or he will suffer from mental overload from the excess freedom associated with this site and degenerate into some kind of sub-human neurotic nail-biting loonie who will eventually drown in his own drool. Just an idea.Prof0705 18:39, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Are you suggesting that I'm violating the 90/10 rule? --Kels 18:54, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I think most of us have killed that rule by now.Prof0705 18:57, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

TK vs Spica
From: NormalMan Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007

To: TK

Subject: SubHuman Cabal?? Please explain block - NormalMan

Would you please do me the basic courtesy of:

1) Explaining what "SubHuman Cabal" means;

2) Explaining why you feel I belong in the above group;

3) Explaining clearly why you have blocked me, when I have *not* contributed anything offensive, derogatory, controversial, inflammatory, pornographic, abusive or otherwise?

A speedy response is expected.

His response:

My!

You are just so impressed with yourself, aren't you? CP isn't WP. You have no "right" to even ask. Check the rules.

04:42, 31 May 2007 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Spica (Removing all content from page)

04:41, 31 May 2007 (hist) (diff) User:NormalMan (New page: A normal man.... In an abnormal world...) (top) [rollback]

You are either Spica, from RW, who wanted your old page blanked, or you are a vandal, whose very first act on the site was to remove all content from some other user’s page. Since Spica was blocked, you simply cannot just return, you sock, and do whatever you want, then stomp your foot to a Sysop and make demands.

Godspeed to you!

TK

Such a nice, charming example of a (non-)human being! CP is definitely a closed organisation, much akin to the KGB/Stasi/SS and this just goes to prove it. Spica 18:36, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * What is it with his use of "subhuman"? Sounds a little harsh.  A little Nazi.  I wonder where that comes from?  Did CP catch it from TK or did TK catch it from CP?  Either way, you seem to have some unresolved anger, and a bit of hatred in you.  Not healthy at all.Prof0705 18:43, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * The word you are looking for is Untermensch.--PalMD-yada yada 18:44, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I think maybe TK hates me. Or maybe you. He thinks I am IceWedge, when I am only Helena Bonham Carter. But anyway, did anyone notice that TK has been infected with Andy's trademark "Godspeed"?  Which would make a great name for a band.  We should an article on the word. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 18:47, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I am almost certain that his aschflafly's use of "godspeed" is just his way of saying "go FUCK yourself". I am 98.74153% sure of this, ergo it is true.  So Godspeed.Prof0705 18:50, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Hmm..never heard of untermensch. Seems that is pretty rampant over there at CP.  Should write an article on that over there.Prof0705 18:52, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll work on a godspeed article. I am an "Untermensch" as were many of my late relatives.--PalMD-yada yada 18:54, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Fuck it, I don't feel like doing Godspeed.--PalMD-yada yada 18:57, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Be sure to include Godspeed You Black Emperor]. Andy's clearly a fan. --Kels 18:58, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

The Hiver Wins!
Anybody here ever play the Traveller SF-RPG? Know what a "Hiver" is?....

My reply:

You will note that I did not use the word "demand" in my original email. As for the "rules", these are the kinds of rules employed by totalitarian organisations such as the KGB, Stasi and the SS. And yes, I am comparing CP to an authoritarian organisation and your repsonse clearly supports that statement. You still haven't explained what you mean by the term "SubHuman Cabal". An explanation would be appreciated.

TK's response:

I see you use the same, tired Liberal tactics, Spica. First you email using a sock account. Asking why you were blocked. Expecting a reason for it. Then when you know we are on to you, you switch to your “real” email, and instead of responding to the fact you originally were a liar, attack me and CP for something else. I suspect you are Jtl. Another bitter, angry person on the Net.

Please don’t bother responding as I have now blocked you. Since you are not in my address book, it will go to SPAM.

God bless you, I will keep you in my prayers that you will find salvation!

Terry

.......And he still didn't give a definition of "SubHuman Cabal", i.e. it's an insult. Spica 19:05, 31 May 2007 (CDT)


 * That's an easy one, though.
 * The Cabal is RationalWiki. Now that you're a member here, you're part of the Cabal, hence making your ban prophetic. When joining here, your chances of being unbanned dropped to zero. Do note that TK, Rob, and the other sysops can join here without becoming a part of the Cabal. So it's fine for them to be here, but not for us or you.
 * The "sub-human" bit quite likely goes back to this remark by TK, the relevant part of which is quoted below:


 * So it's just his way of saying that you're a RW member, even if you hadn't been one when you had been banned. As I said on RationalWiki talk:Cabal, you're not the first case. Hope that clears things up a bit. --Sid 19:30, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * TK, the only names I've ever used in conjunction with CP, RW or yourself are "Jtl", "JToddL" and "Todd Larason" (and for the record, my first name is "John"). And I've only emailed you from my primary email address, at a domain registered in my name.  I'm not Spica or anyone else here; I'd hate for you to be praying for the wrong person.
 * How about you? What names have you used on, say, cpcolumn and RW?  --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 19:35, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * At this rate, I'll need a flowchart to keep track of who was accused of being somebody else. And this only strengthens my fear that some sysops really believe that EVERYBODY who EVER disagreed with some actions on CP is one of five or six actual people (like, the Proto Cabal). It would surely explain the DOZENS of bans with reasons like "cabal", "sock vandal", etc. --Sid 19:50, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks

 * Sid, I know you are you, ok? And if this going to become a place for me to be whipped for actions somewhere else, contrary to what I was told it would be, please remove me, I'm no longer interested in this non-dialog. I am at least happy to see some recognize tongue-in-cheek comments, and my willingness to try and change.  But it is obvious the Admins here, like at CP, are the same, and allow this kind of stuff to continue.  Thanks to those of you who have been decent, if not accepting.  --TK/MyTalk 20:09, 31 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Well, I know I am me, too. That's the easy part. It gets sorta fuzzy when AKjeldsen is also me (CP Column, on which I never contributed in any form) and when Kels is AKjeldsen (or the other way around ...but either way, Kels would also be me, I think...). Just to show an example of the weirdness. (For the log: I'm not either of them.) I dunno if any or all of this ties to you, but I felt like saying that there are WAY more individual people who disagree with the weirdness on CP than some sysops seem to think. So suspecting that User X is in fact User Y under a new name is where things get ugly. Or at least complicated. "The Cabal" may just consist of a few members, but we're hardly the central hub that coordinates ALL disagreement with CP, so not every disagreeing member is automatically our sock.


 * I'm hardly here to whip anybody in particular, but in the light of recent actions (not just pointing at you, but rather at the entire CP management), there WILL be discussion (that's one of the reasons why this site was founded), and it won't be particularly pretty since the things we're witnessing aren't pretty. When somebody gets banned for being a RW member before (s)he actually joins here, things are bound to cause friction. Calling them "sub human" doesn't exactly help. If Rob/Ed/Karajou/Andy had dished out the ban and had given these replies, we'd be on their talk pages (or on some other random page, if that user isn't a member here) now.


 * We're not anti-TK or something, but we believe in open discussion about the stuff that happens on CP. You being a member here means that you can participate in such discussions, for example to present your own PoV or any and all evidence that led you to a certain conclusion. If you decide that you don't want to engage in such discussions, then that's fine. Nobody is forcing you to stay, but I must stress that nobody is seriously asking you to leave, either. Quite on the contrary. Just be aware that the discussions won't simply end just because you're not here anymore. The only difference will be that you won't be around to give insight to your side of things. Asking me personally, I hope you stick around, even if you are feeling intimidated by us "Ghosts of CP Past" (=P). We can't discuss these things on CP any more, but we invite sysops to join us here. Don't expect velvet gloves, but you can expect not to be long-term banned for saying things that the sysops here don't like. That's more fairness than most of us received on Conservapedia, I believe.


 * I think that you and I are on fairly okay grounds. So I ask you to believe me when I tell you that this isn't about you. We're not here to make your life miserable. This is simply about your actions and the actions of your fellow sysops (and others). We can't see anything that happens in the background, so we have to work with what we can see. We would really LOVE to hear your version of things. The more you allow us to see, the more we got to work with, and the more accurate our impression of CP becomes.


 * We're not here to sabotage or destroy CP or any of its users. We're here to help - it's just not the kind of help Andy (for example) likes. We point out Bad Stuff on CP. We poke it. Research it. Try to improve it. And we would like you to work with us since you're one of the few guys who check RW while being able to edit CP.


 * Holy crap, this speech got way out of hand. I blame the time (4.15am right now). Still, I hope the main vibe got across. :) --Sid 21:19, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

What provoked your decision to leave, today, of all days? I'll be out of town on business tomorrow so may not be able to reply, but I hope you reconsider. Come back, pull up a NEW goat, and just ignore the talk pages, and start contributing. People will start to turn your way.-AmesG 22:19, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

(CDT)
 * Maybe it was the shit like above, Ames, and the rest I have added to my archive, from other users attacking me? Maybe? If they wanna bitch about some other place...don't we have like dozens of pages other places for that?  Why am I the focus, when I am the one who came to you guys?  Why am I the focus when I have been the one removing inappropriate blocks?  Why is Hoji welcomed, and he's the one blocking you guys?  Odd. --TK/MyTalk 23:03, 31 May 2007

The simple fact is that you refused to answer a simple set of questions. This 2007, not 1007. People have a right to know, especially if you use derogatory terms like "SubHuman". So, are you going to define "SuHuman Cabal" clearly, as I originally asked? Or is that term something else "others should not know of" (a KGB term for restricted information)? And FYI, I'm not jtl or anybody else...... Spica 03:37, 1 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Well, first, its :"Subhuman cabal member?". You keep leaving that out.  That is humor.  Sorry if you don't like it...but I assume you will agree people still have a right to their own brand of it?  A question mark means, in English, it isn't a "charge" or statement, but a question.  And yes, actually, depending on the rules of what board you are on, it actually could be that you have no right to ask.  Is that so hard to grasp, really?  Now maybe if you stopped demanding, and got nicer, things would be more productive for you. --TK/MyTalk 04:02, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

"Well, first, its :"Subhuman cabal member?". You keep leaving that out. That is humor."
 * There's no smiley on the end of it to indicate it's supposed to be humour ;) <note the smiley that denotes humour>

"Sorry if you don't like it"
 * Thank for you the apology. I appreciate it.

"...but I assume you will agree people still have a right to their own brand of it?"
 * Yes, I do agree that poeple have a right to their own, unique styles of humour. But humour (in the context we are talking about, i.e. the internet) needs to be clearly marked as such, which it isn't/wasn't.

"A question mark means, in English, it isn't a "charge" or statement, but a question."
 * That is so patronising of you. I am fully aware of the uses and meaning of the question mark in the English language, thank you.

"And yes, actually, depending on the rules of what board you are on, it actually could be that you have no right to ask."


 * I belong to many, many boards, fora, etc. None of them have such a rule, except CP. The right to ask is not something that can be regulated away. That right remains as part of free speech. A refusal to answer simply implies that there is something there that needs covering up. Blocking me as a user, or filtering my emails into your spam box, does not remove or negate my right to ask. What is your view? - that's a question, by the way - you can tell that because there's a question mark (?) at the end of it ;)

"Is that so hard to grasp, really?"


 * In 2007? Yes, it is. I have a right to ask and a right to information. You use (what *appears to be*) a derogatory term) about me, then refuse to give an explanation when asked by me (note the word "asked", which is not the same word as "demand" or "demanded") and, finally, hide behind "the rules" of CP. All you have to do is clearly and concisely explain what the term "SubHuman cabal" means and give an explanation as to why you have applied that term to me. That would satisfy me.

"Now maybe if you stopped demanding,"


 * I am not "demanding". I have not used the word "demand", at all, in any of this, which is a point you have continued to ignore. The *only* person who has used the word "demand" is you, TK. If I were to "demand" something, I would say/write something like: "I demand you explain the meaning of that phrase". I have not done so, therefore I have not "demanded".

''"and got nicer,"'


 * I am nice. You just haven't seen it yet, except for the tiny, tiny glimpse (above) where I accept your apology. And, while we're on the subject on behavioural feedback, you, TK, could do with "getting more nice", too, cf: "No, ..just you being he asshole you have always been....a two faced prick."

"things would be more productive for you."


 * I'm afraid you have me confused there, TK. "Things" (whatever they are) are *hugely* productive for me, both here, on other Wikis - except CP, of course ;) <note the smiley denoting humour> - in my many other endeavours on the 'net, at work/in my career, at home, with my kids, my wife. So please, do tell me, how much more productive could "things" get for me?

Here's the Deal

 * TK, here's my offer:


 * You (TK) provide a clear explanation of the phrase "SubHuman cabal" and give an explanation as to why you have applied that term to me. You do this here, on this page, for all to see;


 * and, if you do that,


 * I (Spica) will stop taking up your valuable time and drop the subject of the phrase "SubHuman cabal". And possibly even try to be "nice" into the bargain.... ;)


 * Agreed? Spica 05:50, 1 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Untermenschen is a term NAZI Germans used. Perhaps TK picked up the term from RobS. Heart  ♥  Gold tx 06:42, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

What a mean and horrid statement from someone, Heart, who has posted dozens of times you have not one issue with me. My! I guess you aren't at all genuine...and your personal attack is against the rules here, no?

Spica, I already explained other places. Human's two faced-ness coined the term sub-Human....someone who might be a member of the cabal trying to vandalize thus becomes the open question if they are from the cabal, which Human is a part of. I cannot tell you how much I keep laughing over the attempts some will go to make themselves feel slighted over nothing. And excuse me, you were there to vandalize, and you were a sock! So where do you get off making demands of anyone? LMFAO! --TK/MyTalk 07:08, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * (from LinusM. talk page: "No, unHuman..just you being he asshole you have always been....a two faced prick. --TK/MyTalk 01:06, 1 June 2007 (CDT)") I guess personal attacks are ok, actually. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 11:53, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Ah, TK, I did not mean to imply that you knew the history of the term (though RobS probably does). Whether or not you picked it up from RobS was speculation.  Heart  ♥  Gold tx 07:11, 1 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Nonetheless, it was an attack. It was your way to slyly say I was a Nazi. Explain as you will, that is what it was. Otherwise you wouldn't have made the comparison/comment, eh? --TK/MyTalk 07:15, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

It was actually me, I think, who brought up Untermensch; full disclosure.DocSock 09:05, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

"Human's two faced-ness coined the term sub-Human....someone who might be a member of the cabal trying to vandalize thus becomes the open question if they are from the cabal, which Human is a part of... ...And excuse me, you were there to vandalize, and you were a sock!"
 * Ah. Guilt by association. I understand now.

"I cannot tell you how much I keep laughing over the attempts some will go to make themselves feel slighted over nothing."
 * I'm glad to have brought some sunshine into your gloomy life! ROTFLMAO :D

"So where do you get off making demands of anyone?"
 * Tut-tut-tut. There's that "demand" word again; you know, the word I haven't used, but happens to be the word that TK keeps using. I don't make demands of anyone (and, indeed, I haven't "demanded" anything since this all began). So where do you "get off" putting words into peoples' mouths, TK?

Ah, well. Everyone here can see that I made a reasonable, civil, sane offer to try and resolve this and bring it to an end. No-one can say I didn't try. All you had to do was what was asked of you (which, unfortunately, you are clearly not capable of doing) and I would have said "thank you for the explanation" and that would have been the end of it.... :( Spica 16:48, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Legalese
Hahahahaha, we totally pwned you! <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 20:31, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Block # 2
For profaning another editor. I quote, "Get off it, and go fuck a goat, Doc." This sort of attack on another editor is not appropriate. Even if Doc does like goats a little too much. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 20:07, 2 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You should check the archives here for more then. Will I get blocked for saying you're an asshole?  If so, please disregard, and I won't.  There isn't much policy to tell what is block-able and not, since here it depends on who you are.  --TK/MyTalk 00:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
 * 1. Hahaha. I only see what I see. 2. Not by me, as I would be an involved party to the crime, and we don't do "retaliatory" blocking.  No one else blocked you for it, so either "we" don't care, or the consensus was that it was true. Of course, I made a note of it, and incorporated it into one of my "variable" UXBs. 3. As far as what's blockable, I think direct personal attacks and low quality vandalism are about it.  Since all we have created are "guidelines", rather than "rules", there is a lot of leeway here.  Obviously a lot of leeway, if you look at the articles in the mainspace. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 12:22, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You can type "Doc is a goat-fucking asshole" all over my talk page if you want. I'll archive it and specifically request that the mob doesn't block you.DocSock 12:47, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Haha, point noted, Doc. Block retroactively rescinded, since the "offended" party wasn't. (All that means is the Fibonacci sequence gets moved back one position) <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 13:07, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks, Hu, youre a mensch (not Untermensch).DocSock 13:09, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

Conservapedia
Anyone interested in being unblocked, email me or IM me.

'''I am willing to keep an open mind, unlike some of the people here do for me. Case-by-case basis, of course. --TK /MyTalk 17:51, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Gulik, Gulik2 and Gulik3 here. I don't especially care if my account(s) are unblocked--sockpuppets aren't THAT hard to make, and a little rotation will make it harder for some vindictive twerp to wipe out all my hard work the next time a comment of mine offends their delicate sensibilities....but could you try to find out just WHAT I did to get cp:Karajou to ban me last time?  --Gulik 19:38, 23 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Hi TK! Leopeo here. Could you unblock me? I sent you an e-mail from CP. Leopeo 05:45, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Gulik, I have made inquiries of RobS. I beleive he is a member here as well?  Leopeo, I just checked, and no email from you.  Please use the email I put in your mail here.  Thanks! --TK /MyTalk 06:19, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Done. Leopeo 06:30, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

Okay, after some long pondering, I'm game, if just to see Karajou's face. ;) Could you either unban me or poke Karajou or Andy about unbanning me? My (in my eyes unfair) ban happened over a typo (and over me questioning Karajou's decision concerning a few odd bans - that's irony for you), which had been resolved a long time ago. It also happened SIX WEEKS ago, which is VERY long for my "crime" of asking simple questions. Last time I checked, I was on okay grounds with at least Andy, Ed, and you, so I don't really consider myself to be some sort of Enemy of the State. Most of my major contribs are still around (I think), so I'd like to think that more contribs should be welcomed. If you need more info, I think I saved a timeline of the events around my ban(s) somewhere. --Sid 08:59, 1 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Re, Hoji - thanks for the unblock. --<font color="#000088">ויִ<font color="#220066">כִּ<font color="#550044"> נ<font color="#770022">תֶּ<font color="#aa0000">ר ֶפּ רֶ תֵּ ר  שְׁלֹום!


 * Sid, please see me on IRC/AIM or Email, as it requests above. We can consider anything, once you leash Human. He is truly one sick and vile person. --TK/MyTalk 00:20, 3 June 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, what difference would it make if I sent the exact same request via mail again? If you need more information, feel free to leave a note on my talk page or send me a mail (not sure if you got my address, but my mail is enabled both here and on CP, and Andy and Ed also have it handy). But don't try to bargain the way you hinted above and be glad that I have enough tact to simply overlook that part of your post. I offer to improve Conservapedia in the way I did in the past (see my major contribs). In return, I only ask to have my unfair ban reverted. I think that's a pretty good offer. --Sid 13:33, 3 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Sid, I can't help but think you have found a place where you are a more perfect fit, with not many rules at all for you, but many for those "the crowd" doesn't like. Your unique intellectual talents are much needed here, more so than at CP, where I am sure we can both agree they will be wasted, unappreciated and neglected by the brainless sysops there.  So I urge you to forget CP, and help build this wiki to be all it can be!  You and I have chatted more since you were blocked, than ever before.  I have grown to appreciate your POV, and you have most certainly changed many of mine.  I don't want to steer you wrong, so that is why I think this is indeed your place.  Cheers! --TK/MyTalk 05:24, 5 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Well, my problem with CP isn't the quantity of rules, but rather the fact that some rules are implied by the absence of rules saying something else ;)
 * However, you make a few good points, and I appreciate your input. I do indeed get along better here, and avoiding CP should do wonders for my blood pressure. As such, I'll acknowledge your arguments and drop the unban issue, at least for a good while. :) Cheers, indeed! --Sid 14:06, 5 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Your welcome to revert whatever you want, if one of us thinks its worthy to archive we will. Tmtoulouse 11:09, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Nice to see you have become here what you bitch about other places. I am loving this. --TK/MyTalk 11:11, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * It is the nature of most forms of government. RedHerring 12:17, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * It's your talk page, if you edit it yourself, I don't think anyone here will kick too hard. --Gulik 12:59, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

What To Do
TK : what do you want us to do? Rather than leave snide comments, we should all do something positive. These arguments have taken up 1845 page views. Just tell us, plainly, what you want us to do. Archive your page? Stop posting here? Just ask, and we can debate like sensible, rational, people. Jimbo Wales and Tim O'Reilly were right - no-one is as civil or nice as they should be on teh internets. --<font color="#000088">ύι<font color="#220066">κι<font color="#550044"> ντ<font color="#770022">ε<font color="#aa0000">ρ π ρ ετ ηρ  woo!
 * Thankyou TK - your understanding brings hope to us all. --<font color="#000088">ύι<font color="#220066">κι<font color="#550044"> ντ<font color="#770022">ε<font color="#aa0000">ρ π ρ ετ ηρ  woo!

Welcome sign
is Prof0705 a sock of yours? If so thanks :) -Ĭ₠ŴΣĐĝё 03:44, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
 * LOL..naw. IM me. Its on my user page on CP. I made you a nice welcome template! --TK/MyTalk 04:13, 3 June 2007 (CDT)


 * No, while Prof0705 is a sysop at CP, he is not a sock of TK.Prof0705 16:14, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

I must have missed your name on the list of sysops at CP, Prof0705. Nice to meet you! :D  --TK/MyTalk 05:39, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh TK, I'm hurt you don't recognize me. We have been collegues for so long now.Prof0705 16:18, 6 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Well you should IM me then. Anything I discuss here is off-limits for retaliation there. --TK/MyTalk 20:41, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

Message from the Hive Federation
TK: Thank you for your email; I appreciate the gesture and sentiment. Please check your personal emails, including your "spam" box ;-) for my reply. Spica 07:26, 5 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Thank you, Spica, for accepting my apology! Perhaps now, in some way, at sometime, we can work together on projects that will be "benefical" to everyone.  --TK/MyTalk 08:19, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Indeed, TK! "Forward the Hive Federation!" :D Spica 08:36, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Seems like you should have a userbox for the Federation. --TK/MyTalk 08:42, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Nice idea, TK... I'll look up my federation's official symbol... :) Spica 08:44, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

A hive :O If you need help, let me know. ;-) --TK/MyTalk 08:53, 5 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Keep a watch on the Foxpuppet!


 * Yes, Auld Nick, it is my burning desire to "keey an eye on" such things, lol. --TK/MyTalk 20:43, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

A favor?
TK, could you delete these images for me? I uploaded them at CP for use on my userpage, and since my userpage is... um... not there anymore, there isn't much use for the images. I don't think any of them link to anything. ,, and. Thanks! GodlessLiberal 23:37, 5 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Done. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 02:03, 7 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks. GodlessLiberal 12:29, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Hey, why'd you block me?
Why did you block me? Heart ♥  Gold tx 20:47, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

Did you not resign/quit/leave? If you had/have a problem with that, you damn well know how to IM me. When I see posts like yours above, I cannot think of any earthly reason it is being asked, after weeks, other than to stir the shit pot. And since you were asking me, on my talk page, all that really matters is what I think about the reasons, no? That sounded harsher than I meant it to be, however I do submit when asking a question of another, one does have to weigh the way it will be taken, etc. --TK/MyTalk 20:52, 6 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Didn't you leave? (And I'd guess Heart is calling you in public to make it harder for you to ignore.) --Gulik 22:34, 6 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I didn't leave because AmesG asked me to hang in. Problem with that Gulik1, 2, 3? I haven't ignored shit, btw.  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 00:49, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Shocked and Disappointed
I notice that you're on an article creation binge over at CP. But I'm shocked--shocked!!--to see that your articles are simply cut/paste jobs (Architect, National and American Football Conferences, Bloodletting, some old Russian dude, and others). And they're stubby, too; I thought quantity over quality was one of your pet peeves. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were shooting for sysop.--WJThomas 08:43, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Tk made an effort to correct the problem...I cant find the link, but he stepped in, and got slapped down by Ashfly--PalMD-yada yada 08:54, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I believe it was this. C ® acker 08:57, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Wow. TK stood up for quality over quantity, and got slapped down.  Hmn.  Anyway, TK, that is why I left, remember.  Andy wants quantity right now.  Heart  ♥  Gold tx 09:06, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Well, HOG, you actually left under somewhat mysterious circumstances, because 12 hours before you left, you were happy as a lark, then later you messaged me complaining about someone editing you, which morphed into "quantity over quality". The next message I got from you, said you joined here, but thought you had made a mistake, and would be leaving. I don't give a damn how he wants to run it, and it perplexes me anyone else would. His place, his rules. Obviously many of you are way too young to remember the first year or two of WP....oy vey! And HOG, your mildly condescending statement of amazement is idiotic. You know nothing about my arguments with others about how CP should present itself, so your mocking "wow" is a really cheap shot. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 13:52, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Well done, TK, for standing up to He Who Should Not Be Named over that quality issue. I've had a look at the contributions; they are, indeed, stubs and should have been more completely filled out. And he *did* undermine you... Spica 14:43, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I also agree, it seems to me that "He Who Should Not Be Named" is attempting to elevate all his students to sysop status. Not totally sure why he's making them jump through hoops instead of just doing it, but the stubs are not helping CP. Jrssr5 15:06, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Honestly, it would actually help CP's credibility if it gave up on trying to be a "Conservative" encyclopedia, and went back to the original concept, a class project. How cool would it have been to have an encyclopedia entirely created and maintained by homeschoolers?I think it would have been a fantastic project, and not subject to anywhere near the abuses CP has generated. --She Who Forgot to Log In, Dammit 16:09, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Blocked for 20 minutes for 'being an ass'
Looks like you've caught the short block virus here :p! --<font color="#000088">ויִ<font color="#220066">כִּ<font color="#550044"> נ<font color="#770022">תֶּ<font color="#aa0000">ר ֶפּ רֶ תֵּ ר  שְׁלֹום!
 * Just for general clarification: TK, in another life, blocked wikipurporter for 20 mins on another site. For "being an ass", I guess. This conv. is not about an RW block. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 15:27, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * The real question is, was it a nice ass? --Kels 15:47, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Not as nice as Huey's ass... not that I looked at it... (check block log) GodlessLiberal 00:55, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

ROFL! --TK/MyTalk|undefined 16:03, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Kels! Please no! Don't take sleeping with the enemy seriously!--<font color="#000088">ויִ<font color="#220066">כִּ<font color="#550044"> נ<font color="#770022">תֶּ<font color="#aa0000">ר ֶפּ רֶ תֵּ ר  שְׁלֹום!
 * Oh, sure. And just who brought buttsex into this conversation? --Kels 16:29, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Uh, you? --<font color="#000088">ויִ<font color="#220066">כִּ<font color="#550044"> נ<font color="#770022">תֶּ<font color="#aa0000">ר ֶפּ רֶ תֵּ ר  שְׁלֹום!
 * Curse your Vulcan logic! --Kels 16:56, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Gentlemen, please view exhibit A, of Kels bringing up buttsex in another conversation! GodlessLiberal 00:55, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I call foul! Your userbox isn't a discussion! --Kels 12:22, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I think I'll employ some tactics here. I know, with 95 to 98% certainty, that only liberals speak about buttsex. Are you a liberal? Why are you so afraid to admit your opinions? I bet you don't support prayer in schools. Aschlafly 18:56, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * But I'm not a Liberal! I voted NDP last election! --Kels 18:58, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * NDP? New Democratic Party? Why don't you just admit your liberalness? Folks, a classic case of liberal deceit. You're all in liberal denial. Liberals do not mind denial. Aschlafly 19:02, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Godspeed! --AKjeldsen 19:05, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I totally agree, Liberals love denial, it's in their blood. Me, I'm a Dipper, we're good workin' folk. --Kels 19:09, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Liberal denial. Aschlafly 19:15, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Ohhhhh! This is turning decidedly un-Christian. Time for me to have dinner anyway! *TK RUNS!* --TK/MyTalk|undefined 16:32, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Un-Christian? I'll have you know that buttsex is a perfectly good alternative to birth control.  Exactly 0% of those who had buttsex in the past year got pregnant as a result!  And that's just the guys! --Kels 16:48, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Not according to the church supported abstinence-only programs. -Ĭ₠ŴΣĐĝё 01:18, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * ROFL! --TK/MyTalk|undefined 03:09, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Just remember: it only feels kinky the first time..... ;-) User:Spica 04:08, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Will buttsex make my throat feel better?--PalMD-yada yada 11:42, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You're the doctor! olliegrind 11:46, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

My eyes! My eyes! How am I gonna sleep with that image in my head, Doc getting butt fucked? :O --TK/MyTalk|undefined 01:42, 9 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You forgot "by a goat"... which makes it OK. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 13:39, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

TK outfoxed again
Hey, old buddy, what's going down? Tired and confused? a little bird thells me you can't tell the difference between me and a sock? Well, well, whatever next... --CatWatcher 03:48, 9 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Maybe so....maybe so...but I doubt it, love. I doubt it.  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 03:56, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
 * ...but I do so love our little tete-a-tetes. They just make my day.--CatWatcher 04:01, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Purrrrrrrr.....--TK/MyTalk|undefined 04:28, 9 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Sorry, Wiki...too damn annoying!--TK/MyTalk|undefined 20:45, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Not YEC?
Then what are you doing on conservapedia (no offense), you and Hochi are probably the only non-YEC's there!

P.S. Did you not support other non-YEC's during the discussions/edit-wars because you were afraid Andy would de-sysop you? MiddleMan 08:39, 11 June 2007 (CDT)


 * DanH, Ed Poor, RobS are all not YEC, do far as I know, perhaps Niandra too. I have argued often, and publicly with Andy, and more than my share privately.  No I am not afraid of being let go, lol. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 10:16, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Red is no good
Red is no good. Heart ♥  Gold tx 09:13, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

There. Heart ♥  Gold tx 09:13, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

See This
I do not know why anyone thinks I am this cat.  Flippin ;-)


 * I remember that ... I got yelled at for pointing out the links were bad. BAD ME!! Jrssr5 12:42, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Me too. MiddleMan 12:54, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, Im trying to determine how someone might impersonate me, if that is indeed the case.  Flippin ;-) 12:45, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Anyway, those were some of my better edits, actually. ;)   Flippin ;-) 12:45, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

CP Talk: _____.
Haha, I swear I saw the article link was still blue when I did that. It's early, so my bad. Jrssr5 07:53, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Totally misread your post. Sorry. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 07:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Like I said ... it's early, this whole before noon thing has to go. Jrssr5 08:27, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You're one of the "non leaders" of the mobocracy...they like it like this. Stephanie did too.  Article isn't done, btw. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 08:30, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm happy being a non-leader here. No responsibility, just fun and games! Jrssr5 14:09, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * That's exactly what I thought coming here...unfortunately some mistook the idea and made me their game for fun. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:19, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh, and that header you keep blaming "the blackmailer" for? I didn't put it in.  Is ______ a blackmailer too? --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:20, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Don't say my name!! Are you a blackmailer????? Jrssr5 14:22, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Curses
I noticed that on almost every post you make you swear. Why do you swear so much? Most of the time it is unnecessary. But it does speak volumes about you as a person. -- ¿ <font color="Wheat">Sta’le   ?  23:23, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I am a profane person. Sorry it leads you to be the judgemental person you show yourself to be. There are many people in the world who don't find profanity offensive.  Is your post above, much different than what some here malign Andy about, his views, his religion?  I curse whenever I feel people are being two-faced, applying one set of rules to others they disagree with, and one set to fellow travelers.  While understandable, at least a person can be self-aware and admit it. Rather than only posting to me finding yet another "fault" to exploit, did it ever occur to you to once stand up to some of the injustices and attacks thrown my way?  No, of course not.  And I am certain there will be another post, justifying why not.  Thanks for the laugh.   --TK/MyTalk|undefined 23:28, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I had no idea you were a heathen.;-) Anyway, isn't the whole point to swearing is to be offensive? -- ¿ <font color="Wheat">Sta’le   ?  23:37, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I was taught the purpose was to be emotive. Maybe your religious biases are creeping out? --TK/MyTalk|undefined 23:39, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * My religious bias is creeping out? Care to explain more? -- ¿ <font color="Wheat">Sta’le   ?  23:41, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I am pretty much burnt out on the mean-spirits here, Staple. You can IM me if you want.  Or not.  My thing isn't dialoging on Wikis.  Complaining about cursing is a form of puritanical thought, introduced by religious persons.  Take care now. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 23:58, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * So are you saying the FCC is controlled by puritans? -- ¿ <font color="Wheat">Sta’le   ?  23:59, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

The weirdest thing happened. Moments after posting about the FCC here, Andy makes a new page titled the FCC. I like that it is titled the FCC and not the Federal Communications Commission it makes look more encyclopedic. The only problem with the article is that Andy forgot to mention how it is controlled by puritans. -- ¿ <font color="Wheat">Sta’le   ?  00:07, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * We should be nice to TK. We're lucky to have him contributing here; it's a testament to our success as a group that he keeps coming back.  Perhaps we could keep this in mind and de-escalate the talk...  Also, apologies to the community that I haven't been more active lately.-AmesG 00:08, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks Ames, but I am done supplicating myself here. Maybe when Colin, Trent and Linus remove some of the abusive Sysops here who move around and delete pages, remove them from the DB, appoint some people sysop without any discussion (Hoji)et.al., and demand discussion for others, there will be some room for people here to claim CP is something bad. Rarely have I encountered such really great people side by side with the worst low-lifer's of the Internet, yet the great people just allow them (the low-lifes) to do whatever they want. Odd. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 00:14, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * CP _is_ something bad, no matter how dumb this place gets. Or is this one of those "Unless you've never so much as jaywalked, don't criticize someone else for committing aggravated assault, you filthy hypocrite!"-type arguments.
 * And remember, this place was specifically created as a reaction against Conservapedia's Stalinistic regime, so if this place's near-anarchy offends your delicate sensibilities, I suggest you head back to CP's nice, sterile, controlled environment--free speech ain't pretty. --Gulik 04:48, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * The logic of someone who joins a place, any place, knowing what it is, then complaning when they are removed for its rules, escapes me. One you get it sorted out, email me, will you?  :D  If you have problems with Ames POV, I suggest, if you have the guts, to email him, or post on his page, eh? --TK/MyTalk|undefined 04:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * THe problem there is that at least once, I wasn't tossed out of Conservapedia for "vandalism", I was tossed ut for trying to IMPROVE the factual content of articles. It's not MY fault that Reality has a Liberal Bias! --Gulik 05:05, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You got it right, Gulik. Your reality.  Andy's is different. Don't hate the player, hate the game, dude. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 07:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I eagerly await the days the Conservapedia-style Conservatives of the world finally perfect the alternate reality they've been constructing out of PURE BULLSHIT since Reagan was alive, and MOVE THERE, so the rest of us can get on with trying to keep this reality livable. (I suspect this will be "the Rapture" so many of them claim to long for.) --Gulik 14:40, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Are Sysops Here, Unlike CP, Allowed To Tamper With Un-Blocked User Pages?
View (previous 1,000) (next 1,000) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500).

07:22, 15 June 2007 Jtl (Talk | contribs) marked r15232 of User talk:TK/Archives1 patrolled (automatic) 23:44, 23 May 2007 Jtl (Talk | contribs) marked r2317 of User talk:TK/Archives1 patrolled (automatic) View (previous 1,000) (next 1,000) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500).

Retrieved from "http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special:Log"

(cur) (last) 07:47, 15 June 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (116,105 bytes) (Undo revision 15232 by Jtl (Talk)) <BR> (cur) (last) 07:22, 15 June 2007 Jtl (Talk | contribs) (136,291 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 09:57, 5 June 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (116,105 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 12:52, 2 June 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (113,680 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 01:39, 1 June 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (91,016 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 01:17, 1 June 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (90,736 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 21:30, 31 May 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (90,645 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 21:27, 31 May 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (86,886 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 02:41, 25 May 2007 TK (Talk | contribs) (70,770 bytes) <BR> (cur) (last) 23:44, 23 May 2007 Jtl (Talk | contribs) (14,398 bytes) (New page: Would it have killed you to preserve the wiki formatting? --Sid 14:45, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
 * His page, his castle.--PalMD-Talk 14:4...)


 * And what is this (Automatic)? Could someone please get this blackmailer and terrorist, Jtl off my ass here?  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 02:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * If he's a Terrorist, why not just sic the Department of Homeland Security on him? Or maybe you could turn the hyperbole down a notch? --Gulik 04:49, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * If he's a blackmailer, what did he demand you do? Why haven't you gone to police or FBI?  Or...did you redefine "blackmail" to mean "posted something from an open IRC chat that I had a big mouth about and now want to deny"? --Kels 07:02, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Pretty ignorant dribble, Gulik. A terrorist by definition, is anyone who does something to make another fearful or afraid of consequences they have no control over, and would cause them harm.  That doesn't mean everyone who is a terrorist is in violation of HSA laws.  It means they are a despicable human is all. Just because your idea of what a terrorist is, differs, it doesn't alter the actual definition of the word. Also, from the way he lurks and tends to my pages, here and other places, he might just well be a stalker as well.  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 04:55, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Congratulations. You have just rendered the word 'Terrorist' absolutely USELESS. (And where are you getting this oddball definition of "terrorist" from?  Seeing how it would make any CEO who engages in arbitrary downsizing a "terrorist", I'd like to see who came up with it.) --Gulik 05:04, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * PS: Maybe he's not a stalker... maybe he just enjoys poking the thin-skinned to watch them shriek?

It's just archiving, TK, normal wiki housekeeping. If I might make a friendly suggestion, you might find things a lot easier if you didn't immediately assume bad faith and lash out like this over such things. Cheers. --AKjeldsen 05:05, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You _do_ tend to come across a trifle paranoid, TK. Remember--all we can do here is write things you may not like.  We can't ACTUALLY reach through the computer screen and kill your dog.
 * Yet. :)  --Gulik 05:07, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Really? Where is it disclosed? And why did he change items?  Gulik...you send me your actual home address, and where you work, and let me post it here, and lets see who is paranoid or not, ok?  Jtl tried many times on IRC to blackmail and extort me.  His word against mine, except he has admitted to talking to me about that personal information, right here. And he reposted it to the forum in part as well.  So excuse me if I tell you to fuck yourself, ok? :D  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 07:41, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Okay, everyone, could you all take a step back, two deep breaths and don't post here for an hour or two. Go take a shit or something, read a newspaper. This kind of stuff isn't helping anyone. Don't make me do a Karajou and lock the talk page ;-)αιρδισΗταλκ 07:49, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * What? Embarassed for Stephanie to see your little Wolf Pack in action?  I'm just stopping and smelling the roses, having fun, man!  Isn't everyone just kidding around, having fun? --TK/MyTalk|undefined 07:52, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

One of the few hard&fast guidelines we have here is: don't delete from talk pages, just archive. I was helping you follow that, trying to do so in the least combative way possible. The first time I did that, I chose to archive in my user area rather than yours, and you through threw a fit about that, too. Maybe the drama is your goal?

Once again, I've neither blackmailed nor extorted you (I'll ask again: what did I supposedly ask for?). I have attempted to verify your unbelievable claims without success. That is what that (single) private IRC conversation was about.

Where is what disclosed, and what items did I "change"?

I'll remind you that one of our other few guidelines is that personal attacks ("blackmailer" and "terrorist" would seem to me to qualify) are frowned upon. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 13:26, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * And I see once again, you manage to sneak in names and shit that were removed from your article! You presented to me on your once quoted IRC chat bit my home address, Amazon account, telephone numbers, asked me if I was Gay, because my wish list and purchases showed some Gay title....and let that dangle with the idea I unblock you from CP. At the time I just logged off, and I remember telling several about it, including Cracker. I am removing names connected to me once again by Jtl, that he also, btw, furnished to the LA Times.  Yes, you are a blackmailer, extornist and a terrorist.  No doubt about it.  I would ask anyone reading here, who or what appointed this slime to "verify" anything about me? Is there anyone here who thinks any one of us should have that power, or continue on even though the party objects to it?  And last, I have pointed out, on many occasions, other users who are allowed, apparently, to delete portions of their talk pages, and no one says a word. And why does that link show Jtl still archiving my information? I ask once more:  Why am I subjected to rules others don't have to follow?


 * Wrong wrong wrong. I never mentioned your home address or telephone number in that conversation.  I never asked if you were gay (do you want me to quote that part of the convo?).  I (as I've explained before) have and had no access to your Amazon purchases, just your wishlist.  And I couldn't have been asking you to unblock me, because I wasn't blocked then; that was April 19th.

Why? --TK/MyTalk|undefined 13:53, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * As to the name you removed, I didn't link you to it, I think what you're really pissed off about is that I don't believe your claim.
 * And yes, you have repeatedly claimed that others are allowed to delete portions of their talk pages, but when asked for details, you ignore the question. Again: what's been removed from a talk page rather than archived?
 * I don't understand the "why does that link show Jtl still archiving my information?" question, so I won't attempt to answer it.
 * You aren't subject to rules others aren't. As far as I know, you're the only one here who's objected to archiving your talk page. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:11, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I linked to it, and then thought better of it, and asked it be removed. Why do you insist, month after month, in bringing back up what you once posted saying you would not? I also previously listed several users here who deleted their talk page information without archiving it, and you know that as well, blackmailer.  I asked you be sanctioned, in a meaningful way, for I know Linus has already told you to keep away from me. To back off. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:14, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I never said I wouldn't comment on your CP or RW statements.
 * Please provide a link to your supposed list of users who deleted talk page information. I don't remember seeing it.  And once again, "blackmailer" is a personal attack. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:19, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Screw you, blackmailer/terrorist scum. If I do provide a list, will some Bureaucrat agree to remove you as Sysop, and sanction the users who didn't archive? If not, piss off. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:21, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I dunno, but I doubt it. If you can provide actual examples, though, I'll archive the missing material, just like I did with you (and have also done with one or two other people, without incident). --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:25, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I already did, weeks ago, garbage. Go find it in the archives. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:27, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

I don't believe you. Look, a perfect opportunity for you to prove me wrong! --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:37, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Gee, I can't IMAGINE why anyone wouldn't want TK to be a sysop here. (What's the wikicode for a SARCASM tag?) --Gulik 14:46, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Exactly, with you already in the mix, they can't get much lower into the gutter. :D --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

<font face="comic sans ms" color="red"> Party in the gutter! Woo! --Kels 14:53, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Promises Unkept
"And I have no intent of posting any more about this, or your non-CP activities, on the new public RW. That's not because I believe I did anything wrong, or because I think you're a victim, but because that seems to be the community consensus here." --jtltalk 17:17, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Retrieved from "http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/User:TK/Archives1"


 * Check the history of that page to find a link to the context, which TK doesn't want you to see.
 * Your posts at CP and RW count as "CP activity".
 * As to that IRC convo, I mistakenly believed you would stop referring to it, too, but that's not been the case. Sorry. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:36, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

When I apologized to you for the terrorist remark, I told you if you stopped trying to damage me by linking me to actual political figures, I would. You haven't. All it takes is for you to ignore me, and stop giving out that private information. If I do, that is fine, but that doesn't make it right for others to do so. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:39, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Link, please? Another claim I don't believe, and another opportunity to prove me wrong.  But you'll probably remove this comment too, instead.  And for the umpteenth time, it isn't private information if you keep giving it out in public. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:55, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Block
This edit isn't acceptable, nor were the two revisions of Kels' edits to fix it; 1 minute block for that. Human, I assume this edit was an accident, an attempt to revert the previous edit rather than the one you did? --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 15:20, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry for not adding that comment in a more timely fashion; my failure to do so led to further drama as seen below. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 15:28, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

You may not delete other users' comments on your talk page, like you did here. You are free to archive them, of course. See you in two minutes! <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 15:11, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Could you please fix the red segment above? The "Party in the gutter, woo" part was written by me, but the paranoid trolling bullshit was added by TK later, probably in an attempt to smear me. --Kels 15:17, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh man, the plot thickens. OK, I take my block back, for I thought he was deleting, and jtl already blocked him 1 minute for inserting.  Suggestion: add a comment to it with the appropriate diff links showing the authors of each part? Apologies for getting it backwards and upsiude down to all concerned... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 15:20, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Nah, it's good. If he tries it again, I'll start posting diffs, but I'm fine with letting it drop.  It was originally supposed to just be lulz, not drama. --Kels 15:22, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I do not understand, who do you not just eat the offender? Lur 15:44, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Because I'm cooking ribs tonight. Priorities, y'know. --Kels 15:55, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

My block is reinstated (for time served) for this edit. I have reinserted jtl's comment above. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 15:46, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

I'm blocking for 3 minutes for this edit, given after a warning on the talk page that a repeat would be considered non-funny vandalism. In addition, I will consider any future name-calling (such as 'terrorist' or 'blackmailer') to be personal attacks worthy of blocking. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 19:13, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Oops; Human beat me to it while I was writing that; see below. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 19:15, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * As I said above, 'blackmailer' is a personal attack worthy of blocking. Because of this edit you are now being blocked for two hours. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 01:03, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Give the guy a break already.
He's been blocked, just let bygones be bygones. --<font color="#00FF00">Linus (plot evil tech) 16:57, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Gee, it's rough on him, isn't it? He got blocked for one minute and two minutes, for good reasons.  He also contributed an act of unfunny vandalism and is going to get blocked for one hour for this, with the edit comment: "Fuck you, Jtl:Terrorist and Blackmailer".  In violation of personal attacks, and at least three people already putting that stale discussion on the talk page, where jtl noted: "I'll consider any further attempts to move conversation from this page back to the article page to be non-funny vandalism, and will block accordingly. --jtltalk 15:24, 15 June 2007 (CDT)".  One hour starting after I save this. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 19:11, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * NM, he's being a bastard again. --<font color="#00FF00">Linus (plot evil tech) 20:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Another block
A three hour block for this edit; personal attacks are not welcome here. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 13:17, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Sorry, I was in meetings. Something happen? :p  I wonder if I am allowed to demand that Jtl prove my comments were an attack, instead of being factual? --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:06, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Actually I think it would require you citing your quotes if they are facts; otherwise they're to be taken as attacks or opinions. :-P Jrssr5 14:12, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's the Conservative school of discussion. TK gets to make insults (Uh, I mean... uh... "claims") and the other side has to prove that the claims are wrong. --Sid 14:20, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Did TK really ask for a notarized photo of my penis alongside a ruler? --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 14:27, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, folks, if we are forcing him to keep this page archived, let's not pollute it while he's gone. :) --PalMD-yada yada 14:28, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Doc, while your point is very well taken, you realize jtl was addressing the exact issue at hand (sorry!), right? Or, at least, the least relevant one. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 14:42, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm sympathetic to that, it's just that we ask people to preserve their talk page, and we have sort of hijacked this one for the (good) discussion. IMHO, not trying to start sometin'.--PalMD-yada yada 14:46, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Should we start an article about the size of jtl's ummm ... goods so we can have a talk page? Jrssr5 14:47, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * What I am saying is that if someone wants to block another, they should have proof, and be able to supply evidence that whatever is said, is true, since they are the one with the "power". I'm just pleased as punch to have forced you guys to abandon your original no block policy!  Hell you wouldn't even block a bonafide Nazi, but will block someone as hated as me for saying someone has a small dick.  ROFLMFAO!  And that whole authoritarian rule about forced archiving really is worthy of some ideological nutter. Where else is it enforced?  Nowhere. Not even China or North Korea. Its sole reason for being is to provide fodder for the existing elite power structure, same as anyplace else. (Damn edit conflicts!  sorry Doc!  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:55, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually, truth of a statement does not make it more polite. I have a big nose, it's true, but you still shouldn't call me on it in public.  Oh, and my above statements are void, as TK is back to talk and defend himself.  Anyway, just cuz someone is an asshole, doesn't mean we should let people call them that openly.--PalMD-yada yada 14:52, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Aren't people able to edit their own talk page while they're blocked? I remember that being pointed out as unusual on CP where talk pages get blocked so the person has no public way to defend themselves. --Kels 14:53, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * That's CPs way of keeping dissent down and make them look like they're always in the right (pun sorta intended). If no one complains there's nothing wrong! Jrssr5 15:17, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Jrssr, the "truth" still remains, that any user on CP can delete all content from their talk or user pages, and no one gives a flying crap. They might be locked and deleted when someone is perma banned, but while they are there, sysops do not edit, archive or bother them, unless in highly unusual cases. Please feel free to find out for yourself. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 16:34, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, people can edit the discussion page with their name on it, while blocked, anywhere, I have been told by Ed Poor. It isn't their talk page, if the community insists on ownership of it.  It is merely "a" discussion page with their name on it, to be accurate. Of course because of that, the power hungry elite here moved the discussion to another, more or less hidden page, to discuss it. That is because Liberal minds are small minds, and cannot stand disagreement with their dictates.  So, they seek to exclude others who have a different POV.  And it is proven each and every day here. :D --TK/MyTalk|undefined 14:57, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * tl;dr XD --Kels 15:08, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh, yes, I see...moved to disallow input from the banished! Just like they claim CP does!  Ok, I got it finally!  Block then discuss the "issue" in a quiet, back water area, where such pesky things as another POV isn't allowed because of the block!  And no link to it!  How transparent can you guys get?  How much more pedantic and predictable can you be?  ROFL! --TK/MyTalk|undefined 16:30, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * It's amazing how much sense that didn't make. 0.o --Kels 16:37, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * "Hell you wouldn't even block a bonafide Nazi, but will block someone as hated as me..." as of yet thats my favorite RW moment. Tolerance gone wild. Isn't it ironic how the RW crowd criticised the length of a block for antisemitism at CP, and then they allow a Nazi who made pages such as "evil Jew" and inserted the work kike into articles to refer to Jews to remain on their site?Bohdan 16:39, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Exactly! What we have learned here, from the Syops, is that a Nazi is more liked and tolerated than someone who is Conservative, telling a proven blackmailer and terrorist, he has a small dick and a shitty mind!  Amazing!  Attacks on Jews = okay on RW, attacks on sysops = bad.  Hahahhaaah!! --TK/MyTalk|undefined 16:50, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Um, guys? I've been following this fairly closely (fascinating exercise in sociology/psychology), and have seen accusations of blackmail and terrorism, but NO evidence, much less proof. So, where could I find that? MyaR 16:59, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * For the record, I consider the "proven blackmailer and terrorist" bit worthy of another block, no matter who it's directed at. And further, I'll once again point out that neither is true and you've offered no proof of either. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 17:00, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * But the Nazi user didn't deserve a block? Bohdan 17:02, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * User:NeoNazi was blocked, twice, first for 2 hours and then an infinite block which was rescinded after about an hour and forty-five minutes. And if he came back and repeated his offenses, he'd get ever-increasing blocks.  TK here started off with one-minute blocks, and has worked himself up; his next one should be for five hours.  Remember, Bohdan, TK is really good at making claims and really poor at proving them. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 17:06, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Really, Jtl? And would you please post my block number? It was 3.  So how many blocks did the Nazi get? And me getting more time blocked than a filfthy anti-semite Nazi, says what about you, blackmailer? I bet that little dick of yours gets soooo hard blocking doesn't it?    --TK/MyTalk|undefined 17:20, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * What is this fascination you have with his penis anyhow? --Kels 17:27, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Somewhere between 6 and 8, depending on how you count the unblocks. Should I also try to total up the number of times you should have been blocked and weren't? And I think you just earned yourself another one, before the last one was even put in place. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 17:23, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * (Hope you're finding this at least mildly entertaining, jtl. I am. Just proving the need for a rational response, not that it seems to do any good, at least on the level of the individual.) MyaR 17:26, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You don't seem to have any more success getting evidence from him than I do. This edit got summarily deleted, and this one just never got answered.
 * It won't do any good, because that's the point of trolling. It has nothing to do with rationality, just with trying to push buttons.  Any attempt at a logical, sensible response will be met with non-sequiteurs, abuse, or illogic, as we've seen on this page many a time.  It is kinda funny to watch, though. --Kels 17:42, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Fine by me! Enjoy beating off with that puny meat of yours, terrorist.  So affirmed by the LA Times!  All you can do is introduce into one argument more un-provable information about other times, when your generosity didn't allow me to be blocked?  Hahahahah! What a disgusting piece of shit you are, Nazi!  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 17:28, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * For Christ's sake, will somebody just give him that block and get it over with, already? Sheesh. I swear, the quality of my lulz coming from this site has taken a sharp downturn recently. -- AKjeldsen Godspeed! 17:33, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yey, trying to make other people look bad by, hmmm, trying to make yourself look like you're paranoid and delusional? I don't get the logic, but I'm entertained. Mmmm, drama popcorn. MyaR 17:34, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Just curious, did the nazi editors pages give you quality lulz? I believe it was called evil jew...Bohdan 17:35, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, let's see, said Nazi user made 44 edits over the course of an hour and a half, and was banned twice in that period. And hasn't been back since that day. Would you like me to go back through the logs for various TK abuse? I guarantee it's more than 44 and an hour and half. MyaR 17:38, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I recall there was some pretty good Jewish humor floating around in response to him, so... yeah, I guess he did, indirectly. -- AKjeldsen Godspeed! 17:39, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * One cannot even imagine a sock of a sock being made sysop anywhere but here, lol. Mya you're just another nasty frustrated internet hoe, butting into an argument that doesn't concern you.  Got fresh batteries for your dildo? Add that onto my time okay?  You guys will make the blocks longer and longer, and evenually perma ban me, or ban me for a year, and then crow about how you aren't like CP....just so laughable.  And you all are so stupid, you don't even realize that people like the Times reporter, they get what you are, and how you are right away.  You are so exactly the same as the right-wing nutters you attack. Oh, why pretend you need to comb through the logs?  Most of us know that the weirdo geek Jtl constantly updates a "TK Abuse" list!   --TK/MyTalk|undefined 17:49, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * At that point, while we weep over having fought monsters and thereby become monsters ourselves, we may at least take solace in the fact that the act of unspeakable malice in question was banning someone for consistent trolling, rather than - say - a disagreement over Koine articles or daring to mention that "The New Ordeal" does not exist. -- AKjeldsen Godspeed! 17:59, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I'd beat my breast, but that shit hurts, yo. --Kels 18:08, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Katharsis. Good for the soul. *nods* -- AKjeldsen Godspeed! 18:15, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Um, are you referring to me? I'm not a sysop. Nor am I sock, proof of which I offered to provide you. I've never even had a sock, dirty or clean. Well, except for the ones on my feet. And it's spelled 'ho'. And isn't that oxymoronic? Why would I be frustrated (I assume you mean sexually, what with the dildo reference) if I'm a ho? MyaR 17:52, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Blocks II
Hahahaha, "He all but asked for it." I remember you bitching about me saying the same on CP, how unfair I was being, Trent! Hahahaha! --TK/MyTalk|undefined 17:55, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh the shame! The terrible shame! Some how I think the qualitative differences are obvious........but perhaps its all just a matter of degree. Tmtoulouse 18:12, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I think "What a disgusting piece of shit you are, Nazi! --TK/MyTalk 17:28, 19 June 2007 (CDT)" earned you the block. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 19:19, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Of course you fail to tell the observing public that you not only blocked, but made it a 404 Server Block, which is something even WP & CP doesn't do! Not like I really care what happens to TK, but a server block is pretty rare indeed, where a blocked user cannot even reach their talk and user pages, or even allowed to read what people are saying about them. That might leave you open to charges TK actually is right about harassment, being abused and having different rules applied to him than other users.  I do know that most wiki's and forums, people being blocked, and the community is informed of the duration. I don't seem to be able to find any blocking guidelines here. Anyway, least you think I am actually complaining, rather than just giving my random thoughts about the train wreck above, I am done with this topic.   Ë. 21:04, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * How on earth did you figure out that TK was 404-blocked? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 22:11, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

You 404-blocked TK? I didn't even know that existed. Oh, and that's right, I'm back bitches.-AmesG 21:14, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

404-blocking is nasty, I don't condone that. However, I'm not paying for the site, so it eventually falls into the hands of Colin and whoever else. --<font color="#00FF00">Linus (plot evil tech) 21:43, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

When TK is blocked TK needs to go away for the duration of that block, cool off, and then come back later. If TK does not do that then there are other ways to encourage that. We have all given TK plenty of chances and he is continuing to be an asshole. I am not going to put up with him calling people a terrorist or a nazi. That is just not acceptable. 24.141.169.255 21:56, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Gee, but you allow your sysops and others to come here and provoke me, right? You allow my archives to be moved, removed, edited, moved back, and never say a word about that, right?  Just have Jtl stay away like he does from 99% of other users pages, and I will be happy.  And since I am known for not being a liar, and since none of you were in the chat, none of you can say he didn't try to extort me, can you?  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 01:17, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Linus has come up with another cure for our problem that does not involve a 404-block. Therefore it won't need to be worried about again. Tmtoulouse 22:03, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I dunno, flying out to Reno and unplugging his net connection seems awfully extreme... --Kels 22:07, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * A few slots and a round of black jack can pay for the trip...Tmtoulouse 22:08, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Or a guest slot on Reno 911? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms">human <font color="#00AA00">be in 22:12, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks for the Idea for CP, Trent! We will be implementing the 404 blocks soon, along with another nice tool, something that checks for proxies before each edit. I just love this place!  So many blabbers and evil people, giving away so much. :D  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 01:13, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Thats the ticket, the more insulary CP is the better off it will be right? I mean if you could just get rid of all the editors then it would be perfect....wait......something is not right with that idea....Tmtoulouse 01:20, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I see no reason not to emulate the open and honest environment you have nurtured here, Trent. :D  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 01:33, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * okay then. Tmtoulouse 01:33, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * TK, all I've ever done to your archives is archive material you've deleted and not archived. All you have to do for me to stop is to stop deleting material from your talk page.  As to "not being a liar", well, do you have a response to either of these edits, to begin with? --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 01:41, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Gee, and the "archiving" you did in the past week, while I was blocked? The double archiving you did, when I already had? Oh well, I guess I should be flatered to be stalked, lol. Oh, btw, do you really think you are so special, that someone appointed you to question me?  Let's start with your extortion attempt on IRC.  When you fully answer why you did it, then I might consider ansering anything from the likes of you.  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 02:21, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You deleted material and couldn't archive it, so I did. And as far as I can see, I haven't "double archived" anything you already had. I'd ask for a link, but we know how that goes.  (There is some material on both your archive page and talk page, but that's due to E.Wig reverting one of my edits.) And as hard as this apparently is for you to understand, I can't explain why I attempted to extort you when I didn't attempt to extort you.  I'm not sure you even know what the word means at this point. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 02:33, 20 June 2007 (CDT)

(cur) (last) 11:45, 1 June 2007 HeartOfGold (Talk | contribs) (22,675 bytes) (Untermensch cabal (moving comment))

Here is where you started your crap:
"Okay, where to begin? First, I put the archive under my page originally in order to try to abide by the rules, which 1. require archiving rather than deleting from talk pages and 2. give each user control over their own user area. Thus, I thought it would be less inflamatory to put the archive in my area than it would be to put it in yours. After Trent asked me to, I did archive it in your area, but I didn't want to delete my copy until I was reasonably certain that that archive would not be erased or deleted. Second, I don't appreciate you editing the archive page in my area; the comment you left on my talk page was sufficient (and in accordance with the guidelines). And I did the archiving in the first place because you failed to, in violation of the guidelines. --jtltalk 03:10, 24 May 2007 (CDT)"

First of all, there were not any guidelines approved then. You glossed over that little fact. Second, since I came here from CP, where users are allowed to delete their talk pages, how would I have known? You jumped down my throat about me deleting crap that even Icewedge agreed I should have been allowed to. Since then, I have never deleted anything on purpose from here. And above, Jtl...you said: "After Trent asked me to, I did archive it in your area, but I didn't want to delete my copy until I was reasonably certain that that archive would not be erased or deleted." Since everything on a wiki is re-storable, what in the heck were you "concerned" about? See, your obsession and meanness is displayed for all. Since the ratio of users to sysops here is so high, I think there are others who could manage to "monitor" my page, without your help. --TK/MyTalk|undefined 02:34, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It appeared to me both those guidelines had reached consensus, and it appears to me now that I was correct in that. And I didn't "jump down your throat" -- I didn't say anything at all to you about it until you started throwing a fit about my archiving.  As to your claim that you haven't "deleted anything on purpose from here", are you claiming that all these edits were accidental:    (those are the ones I archived for you in the past week or so), not to mention this one where you reverted one of those archivings? It's a good thing you're known not to be a liar. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 02:49, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * On the off chance anyone else is actually interested in this, the whole conversation TK's quoting from is available here. I'm pretty sure it will be clear to everyone but TK who started the crap.  It may or may not be coincidence that TK became so desperate to make material disappear half an hour after I first responded to his extortion accusations.  --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 03:01, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * According to the post by Trent on my User page, they had not been. And according to your own post, in your archive you said, Jtl, that while they were not yet officially approved "they are all we have".  And yes, aside from that first week or so, when I had no idea people were not in control of their talk page, Jtl, I haven't deliberately deleted anything from here.  Post all the links you want, it only reinforces your obsession with "getting" me.  --TK/MyTalk|undefined 02:56, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You sure are a careless editor, then. --<font face="Monaco,Consolas,Courier New,Courier,Fixed">jtl talk 03:01, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Well, most likely. Compared to the glory that you are, Jtl, anyone would be, wouldn't they ? Of course now I wouldn't dream of being like you and demand an explanation for your not answering the above.  See how you work, Jtl?    --TK/MyTalk|undefined 03:21, 20 June 2007 (CDT)