RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation/Archive47

Request for interaction ban with Ace McWicked
He clearly won't leave me alone despite multiple times, especially months ago when I made a simple request and he responded with a meltdown filled with personal attacks. I'd like an interaction ban with him. 22:13, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Slightly weak oppose - I saw some of the abuse, and it was quite severe. However, IMO, it doesn't justify an IBAN.
 * Pros to an iban:
 * It will stop needless flamewars.
 * He already had one, it helped.
 * Said user has insulted LGM multiple times.
 * Cons to an iban:
 * If LGM becomes mod (99%), it would deny Ace contact, and that would be 16⅔% of our moderator fleet.
 * The incident mentioned was in August, he might have matured since then.
 * What he did today was over an honest mistake, and you don't get ibanned for mistakes, unless it's shear incompetence which wasn't displayed.
 * Preventative, not punitive.
 * For those reasons, I am not sure if an iban is justified and would be slightly against it. --Andrew5 (talk) 22:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If Ace is denied contact, he could ask other mods to ask me. 22:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * For the future, we don't do our votes like Wikipedia does it. Support/oppose is not how we do things around here; it's just a general vote (with some eligibility criteria). -- Techpriest (talk) 23:40, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ik I'm late, but per wp:WP:NOTAVOTE, which I have reminded people on Wikipedia (albeit in flawedways and in the latter, a flawed proposal.). --Andrew5 (talk) 23:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And we aren't wikipedia. -- Techpriest (talk) 11:26, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Let's do this to a vote
Criteria are simple; Interaction Ban between Ace McWicked and LeftyGreenMario. Vote whichever way you prefer. Vote lasts 7 days. -- Techpriest (talk) 23:40, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What happened to waiting 24 hours before a vote? --Andrew5 (talk) 00:16, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Technically this argument has been going on since last night. It's slightly before time, but nothing will come over bickering. Besides you're already doing the passive Wikipedia support/oppose thing. -- Techpriest (talk) 00:20, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess, but I never feel it as a vote, because when I do that passive Wikipedia thing, well, Wikipedia is not a vote. --Andrew5 (talk) 00:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Yay

 * 1) Ace has been passive agressive to LGM for about a year now. An IBAN could be helpful. The risks of LGM being a mod leading to contacting problems should not be an issue; we have 5 other moderators and 2 reserve moderators. I'm less inclined to call it a honest mistake given Ace went on to misgender LGM on Bongolian's talkpage afterwards. -- Techpriest (talk) 23:40, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * the fuck? I questioned a block. That’s it for months now. Acegodfuckingdamnit 23:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Misgendering literally earned me 9 months out of my 3 year block at Uncyclopedia, has gotten people blocked here and at Wikipedia too. Misgendering is a bad offense. --Andrew5 (talk) 00:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was intentional (though he has misgendered Oxy several times before, which I still believe are unintentional) but it's the cherry on top of how he comes off not caring at all about people. 00:21, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Ace's approach to me makes it very unnecessarily difficult for me to explain without feeling like he'll leave behind snide passive aggressive condescension and his inability to cooperate. I've already told him to stop talking me a while back after his tirade filled with personal attacks against an opinion I had that he disagreed with, only to be met with a complete nonstop rant, edit after edit, with even more personal attacks and also personally attacking roughly three other users that came in and called him out on how nasty he was acting. This is the second time my request for him to stop talking to me has been completely disrespected as he went on to leave behind more comments to me as I repeatedly told him to stop. I do not want to directly interact with Ace. If I have a personal issue with how he is interacting with other users, I will notify other mods. Interacting with Ace has been unpleasant, painful, upsetting, frustrating, miserable, stressful, draining, and a pain in the neck, so it's not going to be hard for me to stop talking to him. 23:52, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) I support LeftyGreenMario's request for an interaction ban. They asked Ace to stoppit and Ace continued needling again and again. Ace, I understand where you're coming from, but, jeez, you could have gone to this very board at the start instead of whacking off on LGM and Bongolian's page. I get the whole "you blocked someone without a reason" vibe, but holy crap, you could have handled this better without pissing off others here. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 04:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Tbf I told Ace to ask Bongolian about it, so I can respond to Bongolian. 04:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't like it when anyone goes to a mod or a tech's personal page and talks about a dispute or some other issue that should go to this page instead. Individual janitors, mods and techs are not keepers of the policies or procedures or anything here. This is a mobocracy. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 04:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I see. I just wanted to get Ace to find a venue to dispute so I can communicate my stance more clearly to moderators without feeling threatened by Ace. 05:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes my question about the block, my apology and my taking leave from your page was most threatening. I queried a block. That’s it. Acegodfuckingdamnit 22:53, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Bongolian (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Ace has been very agressive in this thread, such that an iban with LGM is warranted. This can always be appealed if Ace acts more reasonable. The passive agression towards her and me, and the misgendering, suggests an iban is the best course of action.--Andrew5 (talk) 02:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Some of the comments below are arguing against this, citing it's stupid, pointless and while LGM requested it, her request was unreasonable in the sense of nothing done wrong in 3 months. I might have to reconsider my position. --Andrew5 (talk) 22:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) While Ibans can be seen as heavy handed if a third party is both suggesting and imposing it on two people, if one of the people themselves affected requests it, I see no reason not to grant it. For the record, that was the decisive factor in my judgment.-Flandres (talk) 03:05, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Shabi  DOO  12:45, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Nay

 * 1) i questioned a ban. That is all. Acegodfuckingdamnit 23:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Scream!! (talk) 23:54, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) Ace hasn’t done anything to warrant such a measure at this time. Asking one basic question is not disruptive. 00:40, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 4) 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒   talk  00:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 5) I agree with Duce above. If this had been brought up right after Ace and LGM had some sort of flamewar, I might agree, but he did nothing IBAN worthy at this time.  00:55, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 02:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) So dumb. 11:27, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 2) Nutty Roux (talk) 12:22, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 3) This is ridiculous. Christopher (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 4) This makes me roll my eyes so hard I feel entitled to compensation for the injuries to my ocular muscles-Hastur! (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 5) If squabbles between Mario and Ace were common, I could support it. That's not the case. It's the first time they've interacted for months, and Ace wasn't remotely uncivil or hostile with her. There's no need to cater to such a specific need. GeeJayK (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 6) I'm just going to assume Ace will take my advice.Ariel31459 (talk) 00:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 7) Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:13, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Goat

 * The misgendering and the response carried by LGM suggests an iban might work. Abstain for now. --Andrew5 (talk) 00:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * To clarify from above, what I mean is that misgendering is potentially worthy of strong sanctions (depends on the strength), so yes, I can see why sanctions might be needed. He has not done anything else sanctionable at this time, however, I might get convinced by other votes. Not now though. --Andrew5 (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * to be clear I have never intentionally misgendered anyone and with Oxy in particular I would always reread my comments and change he to she if I had done it in error. When I’m on my phone and on the go (I’ve been spending today with my daughter so haven’t been focused) I tend to just type and get on with my day without giving someone’s gender much of a thought. Don’t know if you think that makes me lazy, a liar and that I’m doing it on purpose or that I simply know I’ve made a gendered error but just don’t care. I don’t do it on purpose. Acegodfuckingdamnit 01:27, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I know that, but you cannot keep making repeated mistakes. You need to actually look into those things or just use "they" before making blind gender assessments. --Andrew5 (talk) 02:34, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I generally just try use someone’s user name. Acegodfuckingdamnit 02:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've decided to vote. --Andrew5 (talk) 02:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This got out of hand very quickly. Ace could have just unblocked the person with an explanation on the unblock that it needs a reason. Ace had a reasonable request, but we have two personalities that grate against each other with some regularity. This makes me think of leaning toward an IBAN. Bongolian (talk) 02:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Dude, I did nothing that required this level of complaint. I asked LGM why the block given the user was also never given a response. Apologised for mistaking LGM for a Mod and left LGM alone and went to you instead. It was then LGM engaged me after I had moved on. We STILL have no explanation as to why this user was blocked while I’m suddenly in the dock for... well, nothing. Acegodfuckingdamnit 03:03, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. This seems to be more about LGM holding a months-old grudge than anything Ace actually did or said recently. If anyone wants an Iban, maybe try waiting until it's actually justifiable? 03:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. Ace hurt my feelings really bad over the long term. He treated me like absolute shit. I'm still hurt from this. If I feel singled out by him after remembering this incident, I'm going to read his queries as passive-aggression. How else can I respond to him when I feel he's going to continue treating me like a piece of shit. 04:17, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm going to abstain for now. I must admit that when I saw Ace had left a message on LeftyGreenMario's talk page, I was afraid that things were going to get nasty. But on this occasion, they haven't. Not only do I have an enormous amount of respect for LeftyGreenMario, I will go as far as to say that I genuinely like her. I very much enjoyed being able to talk to her and thank her for the emotional support she gave me. I wouldn't want to support anything that would make her uncomfortable. But I feel that the proper time to have called for such an interaction ban would have been several months ago. Maybe Ace has mellowed a bit, moved with the times or just learned from past mistakes..Spud (talk) 04:56, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not believe he will learn from past mistakes. He has repeatedly stated he won't change, not after his long tenure here. I have already tried to tell him he hurt me months ago, only for him to continue mocking me, insulting me, downplaying how I feel, etc, and I still remember this and he has shown no regret or remorse for his actions while knowing I was hurt. I also do not think this interaction ban will pass, which shows I've made a weak case, but I do believe this will not be our last negative interaction on here and his continued behavior is harmful to me. A self-imposed interaction ban, I attempted so people can realize how serious I am about this. I try my best to not hurt people, I don't want to scare people, and I have no desire for confrontations, but I feel threatened and distrustful of a user that I feel has treated me like trash for a long time now, and I always anticipate he tries to get me responding so he can continue treating my feelings and judgement with undue mockery and condescension. 05:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That link shows that Ace has been effectively harassing LGM: repeatedly ignoring her desire to not be contacted by him. Bongolian (talk) 07:53, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * All I saw was a user asking on their talk page why they had been blocked and there being no response so I asked the blocker why because you should probably explain to a person why they have received a block. So wanted to find out, went over some Diff links, saw nothing block worthy so asked the blocker. Then directed my query to a mod. That’s about the sum total of it. Acegodfuckingdamnit 08:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ace, going "LGM cannot just say "I'm not dealing with you" when I ask him - LGM is a mod so he should explain himself when asked." when LGM is clearly female, is unacceptable. If you didn't feel like checking, say "LGM cannot just say "I'm not dealing with you" when I ask them - LGM is a mod so they should explain themself when asked." Misgendering is disrespectful, and, if transgender (although they aren't, per Special:Diff/2370453). Still, that is not up to you to decide, and therefore there has been an actual issue recently. --Andrew5 (talk) 22:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * All this seems a pity as these are two long-term users on the wiki. Since LGM is the offended party, I suggest to you, Ace, that you resolve to go around LGM in reference to any administrative matter. As pointed out you don't need to honor another sysops', or even moderator's block. Granted, mods tend to get cranky when one reverses their blocks, but then they will tell you why they did it. LGM is quite capable of doing so when they are elected into the position. I don't think a mod should have an interaction ban, so I do think Ace ought to be a gentleman and agree to ignore them, when necessary. There would be five other mods to deal with Ace. Ariel31459 (talk) 22:02, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, we are of course jumping the gun if we are saying LGM is a mod. Sure, she has 14 endorsements, but that doesn't mean she will automatically get elected. Also, something similar to could occur (confirmed ban evasion) which will of course disqualify her (although that's very unlikely as unlike Wikipedia, we have no checkuser). --Andrew5 (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The vote has been open for over 8 days, and there is a 7-13 vote against implementing. This only has 35% support, far less then the 66.7% needed to implement. This should be closed as a fail, with LGM also not allowed to tell Ace to back off seeing as this failed. --Andrew5 (talk) 14:40, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Brief timeline of events...

 * I questioned why a user was blocked on the talkpage for said user because they asked why they had been blocked but no response was given.
 * I asked the blocker for an explanation (thinking LGM was a mod). I did so without swearing and politely.
 * I was advised LGM wasn't a mod.
 * I apologised to LGM and began discussing it with Bongolian who is a mod
 * LGM then engaged with me on Bongolian's talk page - not the other way around
 * I questioned the block further because there was never an explanation given for the block.
 * And yeah - that's it. I in no way abused LGM. I apologised and took it off LGM's talkpage to someone elses where LGM engaged with me.
 * So yeah - I did nothing impolite, apologized for my error in thinking LGM was a mod. Still no explanation was given to the user why they were blocked by LGM. So yes, I will query an unfair block and did so without rancor. Which deserves this action? LGM still hasn't explained the block to anyone - ''including the actually user who was blocked even though asked directly. Acegodfuckingdamnit 23:56, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * LGM, just so we don't have to go through this entire case adjudicating this question, could you give a rundown as to why you blocked the user? I have my own suspicions and likely affirmations, but I'd just like it out of the way. -- Techpriest (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 00:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Given the past interaction with Ace and his inability to be respectful, I have zero inclination to believe he was polite and respectful and willing to hear me out. Lack of swearing and personal attacks is NOT the same as being polite. 00:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You blocked someone and I asked for reasoning as I saw none. You didn’t even explain to the user why you blocked them. That is all that happened. Acegodfuckingdamnit 00:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This reason was made after Bongolian queried in the talk page, which I tried to help jog Bonglian's memory as well. I also noted suspicion with the new account several times[follow-up edit] especially in response to another person also suspecting this user, (GC even said he'll be "kicking" both of them), and we had prior concern trolls like Dunbar and Reefyc which this user acted like, which is in the first link I shared here. 04:38, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Anytime someone has said some suspicions as to why the ban was possibly justified, you've gone into a concern troll / red herring routine to deflect. So, Ace, have you stopped beating your wife yet? PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 07:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I have; she finally got good enough at MarioKart to have a chance against me. 07:15, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

For those that couldn’t hear me from the back...
A summary:
 * After months of looking at RW but never really engaging with anyone I stumble upon someone asking on their talk page why they were blocked.
 * I check the logs and can’t see any reason for the block.
 * I see LGM was the blocker so ask her for her reasoning.
 * She says to leave her alone.
 * I thought LGM was still a mod so suggested as a mod she should explain herself.
 * I am advised LGM is no longer a mod so I apologise and move on to Bonglian (who is a mod) to ask about the block.
 * LGM follows me to Bonglain’s page to complain, even though I haven’t actually done anything wrong.
 * LGM files a case against me in the mod corner because... I’ve given her PTSD or something.
 * So the above actions have lead to all this. Really guys? Really? Acegodfuckingdamnit 23:46, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I see LGM was being harsh to you. I also see you failed to account for your misgendering of LGM (although you have called her female this time). Perhaps you can apologize for misgendering her? Then I will be ok to vote against this. --Andrew5 mobile (talk) 00:02, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You want to talk about misgendering then start another mod case. Acegodfuckingdamnit 00:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nowhere did I even suggest PTSD, and that you bring it up to try to mischaracterize my experience with you is downright vile. 01:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Wait, LGM is female? I just thought, Mario and all.  Sorry if I referred to you as a male before.  04:46, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, since LGM has a pic of a mustached Italian man in her signature, it's pretty easy to assume she's a guy. 05:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm female. Must be a really weird revelation, is it, CorruptUser? I also don't blame anyone thinking I'm a man though. If people do refer to me as male, I occasionally don't correct them either, kinda like not correcting grammar errors. 06:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually thought LGM was male at first, I just tried not to make a gender assumption. I would recommend LGM add something like (she/her) in her signature to signify she is female, or add in a color like pink. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just pay attention. I picked up on it months ago. I have seen she/her pronouns used dozens of times by now going back months. We don't need to colour code genders. Shabi  DOO  16:13, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes I attempt to pick up on it via actions. Problem - males can act female and Vice versa. As such I would not recommend that. Andrew5 mobile (talk) 17:43, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If someone is that clueless, look at the person's user page first before spouting off or use neutral language. In the case of LGM, it's clear from the userboxen (User:LeftyGreenMario). Bongolian (talk) 18:11, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Can we retire from this nonsense now?
Yeah. Acegodfuckingdamnit 22:18, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Please. Scream!! (talk) 22:38, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * As much as it is 11-7 against and will take 15 "yea" votes to overturn, I don't think we can violate the CS. It should probably wait. --Andrew5 (talk) 23:01, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't follow... Acegodfuckingdamnit 01:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm saying per the CS, we should let these votes go for a week. However, it will likely fail. --Andrew5 (talk) 02:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Id also prefer to end this. 02:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, if it needs a week it needs a week. But it's pretty goddamned absurd. Acegodfuckingdamnit 02:41, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ace, I forget, have we ever gotten into fights with each other? You'd think that as both of us are the resident grumps, we'd fight all the time, but I don't see it.  02:45, 24 November 2021 (UTC)