Forum:Do you prefer this or the Saloon bar?

Question. Also test discussion. -- Nx  / talk 01:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * SB. Just 'cause I'm used to it and because it has lots of beer at the top. 01:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind this is a very bare-bones rough draft of the final version. (*nudge, nudge* Ain't that right, Nx?)   01:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's too late for me to start messing around with dpl formatting, but the listing on RW:Forum could be in a nice table. -- Nx  / talk 01:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hm. Could be better.  Why don't we add a box to the side of the RationalWiki:Forum page, that lists all the "currently active" threads (that way if one thread gets really popular it won't take over the forum-specific recentchanges and hide the less popular ones).   01:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how to do that dpl-wise -- Nx  / talk 01:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, logically speaking, shouldn't RationalWiki:Forum be located at, say, "Forum:Main", or something?  01:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the forum namespace is for threads. What if someone wants to name a thread Main? -- Nx  / talk 01:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Saloon bar...easier to drop in and pruse the whole room for intereting tidbits. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 01:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I will only use the saloon. Aceof Spades 01:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What about the frequent complaints that threads never stay around long enough for anyone other than the every-single-day editors to see them before they're archived? And I've seen a one or two complaints that there's no way to watchlist only those threads you're interested in.   01:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen one complaint and, frankly, who cares? There's not much to be missed really. Aceof Spades 01:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * is about the issues people have with the current system. Not that you payed attention to it, because you're our resident apathetic frat boy.   01:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I remember now why I don't like you RA. Because you are an officious prick. Good day sir. Aceof Spades 01:59, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. RA that whole thread took place while i was on holiday and I don't scroll through after 5 - 6 days break in case I missed something. Aceof Spades 02:03, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny. I never forgot why I disliked you.  Because you're a two-trick pony:  everything is either "alcohol" or "I don't care about this, and neither does anyone else".  Even MarcusCicero occasionally has original ideas.   02:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Errrr, yeah. You fuck-ass. Aceof Spades 02:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I love the holidays. It's so nice that we're all back together again: the dipsomaniac sheep-fucking kiwi, the arrogant Jewish kid. It's GOOD that we all get together at this special time. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 02:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

To get back on topic, this actually looks more manageable. It still has the feel of a saloon bar, but is easier to navigate. Problem is, once you've grown accustomed to the old brew-pub you usually haunt, it is hard to move on.... 02:17, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this could work very well. Are the topics sorted by most recent edits?  Also, one important thing - people are going to have to actually come up with appropriate topic names, unlike the headers at the old SB - "Something I just thought of" isn't gonna fly using this system.  But I do think people will realize that.  I hope.  03:06, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are sorted by most recent edit and show the most recent edit (and the edit comment, but that can be disabled). Unfortunately there's no way to show both most recent edit and thread starter. As for the topic names, your average forum doesn't have any more descriptive thread titles than our SB headers. -- Nx  / talk 10:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks good to me. The saloon bar is probably not ideal for people who aren't checking it every day or two. It's going to be useful to be able to subscribe to a conversation by watching the page. That'll save me some hunting through the history. -- 12:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Condemn that old bar and build us a forum! 14:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I quite like the look of this, actually. There's not too much clicking as you just bring up a "topic" in a new tab and be done with it. Viewing last edits etc. would be useful. But if that was the case, why not just switch to the BB board? 19:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I really like this. If you click "expand to show thread contents" you basically get everything on a page, which is just like the saloon bar. Kind of cool, really. I think the major issue would be testing usability from the perspective of "teh n00bs" (as the cool kids call them). 19:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I prefer any venue other than the saloon bar. That place has become a haven for degenerates with no sense of humour, computer geeks with no social skills, and idiots with no capacity to understand witty irony. Close it. In reality this place is beyond repair, it accuses innocents of vandalism while maintaining its own aggressive posture towards other websites. Its a towering disgrace, the shame of the west. Close down the whole bloody rotten structure and maybe with time, mankind will forgot the vanity that permeates through all this websites wretched pores. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 134.226.1.234 / talk / contribs
 * Hi MC. How's it going? Bob Soles (talk) 15:10, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Bob! You are one of the redemptory figures on RW. I have high hopes for you and your ilk. First of all, however, you need to distance yourself from both the frivolous ineptitude we see from people like Ace and officious angst ridden hysteria from cretins like RA. Will you join me?
 * I always hated the saloon bar's name (something about "golfers, tories and similar vermin" IIRC), so I may well hang round on the forum. But I'm sans internet all next week so I'll see how it goes. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

One, as I said at the SB, I think we need both - forums for longer lasting threads, and the bar for short term trivia (like TV program announcements, comments on the weather, etc.). Also, we need "add new section" links on all these IMHO. 20:18, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by add new section? Just the regular button that adds a new section to this page, or a button to create a new forum thread on a different page? -- Nx  / talk 20:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the confusion. "Add mew section" is pointless when it's thread-per-page. Unless you mean just to break it up with convenient edit buttons. But Human is right about using "both", although I'm not sure how one would distinguish between the two types just as the first person posts; you just don't know if it's going to generate a discussion or fall into obscurity. One way around that would be to make a new "WIGO-esque" page (and I believe this was circulated around a while back so that's where I'm getting the name from) entitled "RW Recommends". This would be for announcements, odd links, things that wouldn't go to the usual WIGOs as they're neither world news events or blog based. And that would basically be the saloon bar, if someone wanted a longer or more active discussion, they'd put it in the forum, but if they just wanted to make a silly announcement or share a link (as I did with the Star Wars weather based stuff) you could add it there. There are, of course, problems with that idea too; you don't get the Saloon Bar feeling of having this ongoing discussion with a WIGO type page, for instance. But I'm happy to continue this side-by-side experiment to see where it goes. 20:50, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah the one that is always on talk pages but not on namespace pages. On long threads being able to just click "add new section" at the bottom gets really useful.  21:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I also need some place to announce stuff I do, such as the editnotice thing I just made. -- Nx  / talk 11:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, that'd be incredibly useful. Particularly considering I don't know what you're talking about. A quick scan of your "site discussion" forum would show it up, whereas a browse of the Saloon Bar wouldn't, because it would have been archived by now. 15:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It's here
There. The "section adder" is on, cheers Nx. Which is good. I can see it getting used on some topics that are long. IMHO, that's better than a linear forum because it'd allow branching off into different areas of the same topic much more effectively. 21:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * We should start a pool betting on when the first forum page section gets moved off to become its own forum page. I say 8 days from now.  21:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 8? Really? I'd say sooner, but we do have some vocal opposition from some that means it won't have the full thing. However, I think providing something stays (vaguely) on topic, there's no need to move. Otherwise the abortion based talk pages would have to have suffered the same fate by now. This sort of thing does mean we can save moving things to "debate" when they're not really debates. 22:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we've had it happen all over the place - obviously, some started at the SB, but others happened on random talk pages. We usually moved them to the debate space.  One person is crying about hwo the complete history won't be there if we move something to another place, but we've been doing it for years and I don't see it stopping just because it confuses RA.  And, yeah, I think it will take about 8 days for the new forums to have reached critical mass and for one to spawn a completely off-topic but interesting thread that gets moved.  22:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone actually use diffs from the SB or check the history other than for the last day or two? The only use of the history I can see is for RWW. 23:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not the only problem with the Saloon bar. -- Nx  / talk 00:05, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Diffs are useful to confirm that someone did actually post that message. Hence how I managed to confuse people on the Christian Science talk page. 12:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point. I often try to "ID" those kind of "joke posts" in-line soon after, so if the section gets moved the ID goes with it.  20:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't take this the wrong way, anyone, but does it seem ironic that we've mothballed the traditional forum/discussion board format for the saloon bar, and now we're mothballing the saloon bar for a wikified version of the forums? (I don't doubt it's an amazing implemented format!) Sterile 16:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's kind of stupid, but the problem with the phpbb forum is that it isn't integrated into the wiki. -- Nx  / talk 17:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it involves two log ins, for a start. Then it's different code that you want to switch between, and Media Wiki is the more flexible of the two should it need it. Besides, the saloon bar isn't being mothballed, it still has a use that a well organized forum can't provide, just like (for the many reasons outlined already) a forum can provide things that the saloon bar just can't cope with. 10:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be best to combine the two, and make the bar a random chat thread. -- Nx  / talk 10:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I approve of this suggestion. It improves the SB, rather than outright replaces it. --Kels (talk) 18:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The SB is still perfect for starting threads, after all, we never know what will take wings.  Here is where the longer threads come to stay alive and not clog up the SB.  See my long comment/idea over at the SB on this topic.  02:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My only issue is with the starting threads on the SB part. I'd prefer it if threads were started on their own page, especially if the user anticipates that it will generate a lot of discussion. Otherwise the forum will remain underused, and the SB will still have the same problems, even if the sticky and very long threads are taken out. -- Nx  / talk 19:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've moved the sticky thread out of SB to forum, as this seemed to be one of the purposes of the forum. What about other threads?  Probably we should move the "festive logo" & "do we vote on everything?" threads over here too, as they've both got quite big & involved.
 * Regarding Nx's suggestion that users should start threads as a new page if they expect a lot of discussion: in practice they'll get more attention, & hence discussion, at the Saloon Bar. That may change in time, but I think for the moment users will be reluctant to start new threads in forum rather than SB.  It's probably best to just move longer threads from SB to forum for now, & see how things pan out from there.   20:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It'd be a hard transition, but sometimes things drop off the radar at the SB. So I'd leave it to people's judgements about where they should best put it. It'd be cool to see some threads pop up, but the SB is fine too. 22:33, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, since the SB was started because people weren't using the forums, now that we have a functioning forum that does work, it makes sense to basically use this place the same as you'd use the SB. I'll leave hanging on to old versions to the others, any new threads I start up will be here instead of there. --Kels (talk) 05:48, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

My preference
I prefer the saloon bar, simply because I like the idea of it being a general area in the community to bullshit about nonsense in. My issue with forums as opposed to, what in old interenet terms would be called, a bulletin board is that they serve different purposes. Where as a forum is for discussing one topic extensively, a bulletin board setting is for discussing multiple topics at a less-than-extensive length. That, and I can get virtually drunk at the saloon bar. 23:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You can still get drunk in forums. It just like having a function rooms in a bar where people can get drunk and hire a stripper while people elsewhere in the bar play dominoes or something. If I know this place, the old-style will be revived anyway for lunch and drunk banter. Either that or we'll invade some poor sod's talk page. -- 23:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * While I agree, that's stretching the metaphor a bit. 12:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * While I agree with Armondikov, I intended for that stretching of the metaphor to be a joke, not serious. 22:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * [[image:Drinks drunk.gif]] Hail to the metaphor! [[image:Drinks drunk.gif]] 15:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Nx's clean-up
Makes the Forum look so much goddamn better! I was just thinking about how annoying all that header stuff was now that I could potentially see everything in one page, and BAM he fixes it! Great job, Nx!--Tom Moore fiat justitia 14:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the bartop is nice, but half the time the quote formats badly and once you've seen it once, it's more of a hassle and hinderance. The cleanup looks pretty snazzy, without being superfluous. 19:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion/request
At least for now, can we have a short list at the top of the SB showing the most recently edited threads here? Six, or ten, or perhaps just ones edited in the last 24 hours? 22:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This will list all stickies plus the 6 most recently edited threads from the two categories. Also can be collapsed and will remember its state in a cookie -- Nx  / talk 22:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Is there an easy way to reduce each one to one line? Also make that fat blue box a few pixels smaller? I'd like it to be as compact as possible at the SB so people don't shrink it and forget it. As far as my questions, I guess I might be able to hack at the stuff above till it looks like I want, but you can probably do it in your sleep. 01:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * One day, I will learn to use DPL properly like this! 17:11, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked at this earlier and wondered where the box went... just saw the new version over to the right. I'd love to see that at the top of the SB, and I'd paste it in myself, but I suspect we'll need to trim some of the clutter at the top of the SB a bit to crowbar it in neatly.  I may try a few things in preview though...  22:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)