RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive103

And I thought the passion of the christ was bad....
I've been reading "The varieties of religious experience" lately, and I thought I'd share a cautionary tale of what happens when you base your theology around torture porn:

And now, as a more concrete example of heads 4 and 5, in fact of all our heads together, and of the irrational extreme to which a psychopathic individual may go in the line of bodily austerity, I will quote the sincere Suso's account of his own self-tortures. Suso, you will remember, was one of the fourteenth century German mystics; his autobiography, written in the third person, is a classic religious document.

He was in his youth of a temperament full of fire and life; and when this began to make itself felt, it was very grievous to him; and he sought by many devices how he might bring his body into subjection. He wore for a long time a hair shirt and an iron chain, until the blood ran from him, so that he was obliged to leave them off. He secretly caused an undergarment to be made for him; and in the undergarment he had strips of leather fixed, into which a hundred and fifty brass nails, pointed and filed sharp, were driven, and the points of the nails were always turned towards the flesh. He had this garment made very tight, and so arranged as to go round him and fasten in front in order that it might fit the closer to his body, and the pointed nails might be driven into his flesh; and it was high enough to reach upwards to his navel. In this he used to sleep at night. Now in summer, when it was hot, and he was very tired and ill from his journeyings, or when he held the office of lecturer, he would sometimes, as he lay thus in bonds, and oppressed with toil, and tormented also by noxious insects, cry aloud and give way to fretfulness, and twist round and round in agony, as a worm does when run through with a pointed needle. It often seemed to him as if he were lying upon an ant-hill, from the torture caused by the insects; for if he wished to sleep, or when he had fallen asleep, they vied with one another. Sometimes he cried to Almighty God in the fullness of his heart: Alas! Gentle God, what a dying is this! When a man is killed by murderers or strong beasts of prey it is soon over; but I lie dying here under the cruel insects, and yet cannot die. The nights in winter were never so long, nor was the summer so hot, as to make him leave off this exercise. On the contrary, he devised something farther -- two leathern loops into which he put his hands, and fastened one on each side his throat, and made the fastenings so secure that even if his cell had been on fire about him, he could not have helped himself. This he continued until his hands and arms had become almost tremulous with the strain, and then he devised something else: two leather gloves; and he caused a brazier to fit them all over with sharp-pointed brass tacks, and he used to put them on at night, in order that if he should try while asleep to throw off the hair undergarment, or relieve himself from the gnawings of the vile insects, the tacks might then stick into his body. And so it came to pass. If ever he sought to help himself with his hands in his sleep, he drove the sharp tacks into his breast, and tore himself, so that his flesh festered. When after many weeks the wounds had healed, he tore himself again and made fresh wounds.

He continued this tormenting exercise for about sixteen years. At the end of this time, when his blood was now chilled, and the fire of his temperament destroyed, there appeared to him in a vision on Whitsunday, a messenger from heaven, who told him that God required this of him no longer. Whereupon he discontinued it, and threw all these things away into a running stream."

Suso then tells how, to emulate the sorrows of his crucified Lord, he made himself a cross with thirty protruding iron needles and nails. This he bore on his bare back between his shoulders day and night. "The first time that he stretched out this cross upon his back his tender frame was struck with terror at it, and blunted the sharp nails slightly against a stone. But soon, repenting of this womanly cowardice, he pointed them all again with a file, and placed once more the cross upon him. It made his back, where the bones are, bloody and seared. Whenever he sat down or stood up, it was as if a hedgehog-skin were on him. If any one touched him unawares, or pushed against his clothes, it tore him."

Suso next tells of his penitences by means of striking this cross and forcing the nails deeper into the flesh, and likewise of his self-scourgings -- a dreadful story -- and then goes on as follows: "At this same period the Servitor procured an old castaway door, and he used to lie upon it at night without any bedclothes to make him comfortable, except that he took off his shoes and wrapped a thick cloak round him. He thus secured for himself a most miserable bed; for hard pea-stalks lay in humps under his head, the cross with the sharp nails stuck into his back, his arms were locked fast in bonds, the horsehair undergarment was round his loins, and the cloak too was heavy and the door hard. Thus he lay in wretchedness, afraid to stir, just like a log, and he would send up many a sigh to God.

In winter he suffered very much from the frost. If he stretched out his feet they lay bare on the floor and froze, if he gathered them up the blood became all on fire in his legs, and this was great pain. His feet were full of sores, his legs dropsical, his knees bloody and seared, his loins covered with scars from the horsehair, his body wasted, his mouth parched with intense thirst, and his hands tremulous from weakness. Amid these torments he spent his nights and days; and he endured them all out of the greatness of the love which he bore in his heart to the Divine and Eternal Wisdom, our Lord Jesus Christ, whose agonizing sufferings he sought to imitate. After a time he gave up this penitential exercise of the door, and instead of it he took up his abode in a very small cell, and used the bench, which was so narrow and short that he could not stretch himself upon it, as his bed. In this hole, or upon the door, he lay at night in his usual bonds, for about eight years. It was also his custom, during the space of twenty-five years, provided he was staying in the convent, never to go after compline in winter into any warm room, or to the convent stove to warm himself, no matter how cold it might be, unless he was obliged to do so for other reasons. Throughout all these years he never took a bath, either a water or a sweating bath; and this he did in order to mortify his comfort-seeking body. He practiced during a long time such rigid poverty that he would neither receive nor touch a penny, either with leave or without it. For a considerable time he strove to attain such a high degree of purity that he would neither scratch nor touch any part of his body, save only his hands and feet."

Puts all our present day nutters for Jesus in to perspective, eh? -- 21:00, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Bloody psycho if you ask me. 22:09, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If thats what floats his boat, good luck to him. At least he wasn't burning or stoning folk. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Why should I vote Lib Dem ever again?
Ever since I was able to vote, I've supported the Lib Dems (or their predecessors), in order to get a fairer voting system. Now the great British public in their wisdom have rejected the opportunity to make their votes mean something (counting to 3 every 5 years is too much like hard work, apparently), I may as well vote Green as I'd wanted to all along, but didn't, fearing it a wasted vote. Little did I know I'd been wasting my votes since 1987... so fuck the Lib Dems for not getting the only thing they consistently tried to get, and fuck them double for having their heads up David Cameron's smug tory anus. Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 19:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If we abandon parties and politics every time they fuck something up we wouldn't have anyone left to vote for. They're politicians, they're driven by power. As I said to someone after the LDs backtrack on tuition fees, "a politician lying - what did you expect?" Otherwise, I suggest you take this up with Armondikov. 20:00, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I know, I know. I just wanted to get it off my chest. Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 20:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Would it be too much to suggest that >gasp!< the Liberal Democrats backed an unpopular position, and so the fault would be better placed with the proportion of the electorate that disagrees with you than with the party? 20:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No no, no. I'm right and everybody else is wrong. Now let me sulk in a beer-scented miasma of self-righteousness. Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 20:10, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll have what he's having. Make it a double. Ajkgordon (talk) 20:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * To be somewhat fair to the ranter, the Lib Dems backed down hard on their electoral reform thing in basically every way possible. No one wanted AV, the Lib Dems wanted some form of Proportional Representation initially but were convinced to go for the shitty compromise that no one wanted in the first place. And then they failed to adequately challenge the shit the no-to-av crowd was pumping out (hell, Blunkett came out on the day of the vote and admitted that one of their main points had been literally pulled out of their ass, as WIGO'd in wigo world), meaning everyone was being pumped full of shitty info about it with no (or nowhere near enough) pro-AV information to counter it. They didn't just fail to keep one of their campaign promises, they catastrophically failed to keep it and have done a good job of making sure electoral reform is off the books for any political party for the next few years (it's gonna take a lot of political clout to get another referendum even suggested again for a long time after this disaster). Considering this is one of the main reasons a lot of people voted for them in the first place, they deserve a lot of the backlash they're getting. X Stickman (talk) 20:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the point, really. AV is the "miserable little compromise" forced on us by the coalition. It was a step forward undoubtedly, but it was more a means to an end, i.e., PR. For example, the No campaign may have claimed AV was unpopular and used in few countries, but it discounted the fact that FPTP is not used anywhere in western Europe as they all use other forms of preferential or PR voting. Yeah, they should have come down hard on the lies but it wasn't a well funded campaign and was just a proper grassroots thing. It suffered the usual liberal fault of "if we show people evidence, they'll believe it". Remember that Al Gore took facts to the debate, George Bush took soundbites - and look who won that one. Same thing happened with AV. The Yes campaign says it would do X, Y and Z while the No campaign lied through its teeth like the bunch of miserable Tory cunts that funded them. Hopefully Chris Huhne will follow up on some of his recent banter and we'll see the No campaign admitting that they mislead the public, perhaps (at best) forcing another referendum with the Tories going cap-in-hand to the people begging for forgiveness for lying to them. By tomorrow I'll have let it die, though. It's been killed for a generation, I'll have to accept that and get used to more tactical voting and more Tory governments ruling despite only 30% of the actual popular vote. ADK ...I'll crinkle your flan! 00:23, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Though here's a thought. The percentage of people voting against AV is around 70%. Incidentally, the percentage of people who voted against a Tory government in the last election was around 70%. Yeah, just think about it for a moment. We're not getting AV despite 30% of people wanting it, but we are getting Tory shitfest because 30% of people wanted it. Just saying. ADK ...I'll exterminate your chisel! 00:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, the majority of the constituencies that voted Yes were in London, where there weren't any local elections. When you voted in the local elections you get both ballot papers shoved into your hand, without any "do you want to vote in the referendum" involved. So, the place were AV was most favoured just happened to be where people had to give a fuck to go out and vote. If people were voting in the locals but didn't give a shit about the referendum, they still got a ballot paper. And in this case we can safely assume "don't give a shit" = "no". Now, if the referendum wasn't rolled into a local election, would it still have been defeated? Considering that the vast, vast majority of people I know were pro-AV it's kind of clear that those who actually cared were very Yes. Yet we've just railroaded a load of people who either weren't informed or didn't care into voting and those people would have voted No. Just putting it out there, yes, I think we have been fucked over for a generation. ADK ...I'll liberate your crab cake! 00:33, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll probably bite my tongue and vote Lib Dem at the next election for two reasons: 1) There's nothing better; 2) Some of the finest people I've ever met have been elected Lib Dems. I don't intend to go into #1 right now because it's too subjective, but for #2 I'll start with my own dad (biased, yes, but you will still find a lot of people in Garstang who wish he'd go back into council - even though he left 20 years ago) and move through people like Earl Russel and Dame Nancy Seear - two of the best and most liberal speakers I've ever had the pleasure of hearing - to people like Iain Smith and Mike Pringle, who lost their seats today in Fife NE and Edinburgh Southern respectively. Yes, there are people in other parties who I admire, but I've met far more Lib Dems I admire than people from any other party.

The current Lib Dem leadership are a bunch of wet bastards who have managed to screw up the party's greatest opportunity since the Lib-Lab Pact, but then I used to know Danny Alexander and he always was a talentless wanker. The right wing of the part have had their chance and blown it. It's up to the left wing to save it. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 00:44, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As always I'll just vote with who I think will best represent me at the time. It might be Tory one day, who the fuck knows! ADK ...I'll roll your high-powered laser rifle! 00:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * AV referendum: Dividing the spoils of a bitter war - okay, so a fairly non-committal piece by the beeb, as you'd expect from an organisation that really is politically neutral. But consider the following line from it: "The voters, of course, needed only to mark crosses on ballot papers. They did not have to explain their reasoning." I just have to point out that this quote goes against everything I stand for. My mantra is that what you believe is insignificant next to why you believe it. Did people vote because they believed the No propaganda, for instance? It's this "why" that gives a decision true rational legitimacy. This "why" is the most important factor as it is an appeal not to just arbitrary randomness but to reason. And reason is the only thing worth considering to be sacred. So far I've bot heard a single No reason that stands up to scrutiny unless they're honest about saying they like to keep supposedly "strong" governments in power such as the Conservatives (admitting that it's reasoning on idealism and not fairness). I want to know why people voted no. If there isn't a good reason that stands up to scrutiny we have done a massive disservice to ourselves and the next generation that will have to put up with our current voting system that is simply not fit for purpose. ADK ...I'll calcify your salad fork! 01:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That was an issue that had been in my head for a while, too. Whether AV was passed or not, no one knows why, and no one would be (or in this case, will be) willing to fund a study to find that out. Vote No and AV fails and you get people like Cameron claiming that the results give us a "resounding answer that settles the question" over electoral change, when it really doesn't. Maybe people didn't like AV? Maybe they were all misinformed (my dad thought that AV meant that everyone who didn't vote had an automatic vote for them that went to the current government, for example), or maybe they just didn't like AV and wanted PR or something else. But that's not the answer people will take from it; they won't see it as a rejection of AV, they'll see it as support of FPTP, which is different. But at the same time, if the vote for AV had passed, then it would've been an awfully long amount of time until we had a chance to boost it to PR or another system because the exact same people would be saying "Aren't you happy with this? You want us to fund it all again?".


 * I still considered AV to be the better choice (which is how I voted), but whatever the results of the vote, we were going to be stuck with a sub-standard voting system for a long time. X Stickman (talk) 01:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the bright side is this is probably the last time ever the LibDems support the Tories in a Coalition government. They've given up a lot and got nothing for it, and I don't think they'll make the same mistake twice. -- 01:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the Lib-Dems will be in a position to form any kind of coalition for a while now. Unless a major internal shift happens in the party, or everyone suffers collective amnesia (possible), they're going to get hammered in the next general election. Whether that's an undeserved response down to sour grapes or disillusionment (I know many who voted for the lib-dems out of an Obama-style "change" attitude, and those people are now bitterly disappointed) or not, it's still going to happen. X Stickman (talk) 01:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering that the vast, vast majority of people I know were pro-AV it's kind of clear that those who actually cared were very Yes. I detect a whiff of the false consensus effect there. 03:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ageed - a huge sector of voters care very little about electoral reform, and were more worried bt the FUD campaign from no than they were inspired by the facts from the yes campaign. What pisses me off is the scale of the loss, which makes getting any compromise (let alone PR) in the near future is impossible. NDSP 06:37, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, on Facebook, the Yes campaign group attracted about 16,000 people and the No attracted about 10,000. These are the people who care enough to join and campaign. If we then go by FB profile pictures I've seen the place flooded with purple yes pictures and I can name around two dozen people who were for it but only about 6 against it. Out of those, two were hardcore Tories so didn't really have much chance of voting otherwise, 3 didn't actually understand AV (and one looked pretty sheepish for voting no when I explained it) and 1 argued that the entire thing was a stitch-up so we should burn the ballots rather than vote. So out of the people who got up and cared that I know, most were pretty pro-AV. Perhaps there's some selection bias there because I tend to hang around people with higher education backgrounds and younger people less resistant to change (and I'll admit that), but that's not the same as "false consensus". If the referendum was held independently of the local election, then it would attract the people who cared about it, and out of those it seems to have been a pretty sound Yes. I wonder if the result would have been any different if people had to take and pass a short quiz on "what is AV" before voting because once you do understand it, there is very little reason that holds up to scrutiny. Perhaps it is butthurt, but it's something I'm entitled to as I'm now in a political system that I officially did not vote for. But it would be considerably less hurt if it wasn't for the fact that a bunch of rich Tory lords and ministers financed and backed a campaign of outright lies and misinformation. ADK ...I'll obliterate your egg! 13:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Butthurt

 * Dons flame-retardant suit* I'm honestly kind of surprised by the massive amounts of butthurt among our resident Brits here. Is there something I'm missing? The No campaign were a bunch of dirty liars, Lib Dems betrayed their base. Welcome to politics. Believing politicians would deliver on campaign promises is like marrying a prostitute and expecting her not to cheat. As Mencken said: "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary." I'm sure many, many people voted against AV because "Oh noez, it'll give the evil Muslamics/BNP/insert fringe crank party here a ton of votes!" And that's how politics is done, son. (As a note of disclosure, I am also a massive hypocrite because I live in a Democratic stronghold, so I'm free to throw my vote away on comedians, hookers, and Jimmy McMillan. Ah, the joys of New York politics.) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It is probably just people being naïve about politics. When trying to choose whether to vote for a candidate, I entirely ignore the hot air from the campaign, look at their political track record and their connections, consider any serious practical ramifications, and then read all the slop the cranks are slinging (the Reds and Conservapedia are good sources for this, depending on the candidate's party) to see which of it has any merit. Barely anyone I vote for ever gets elected; it would appear that a good deal of the electorate actually are suckered by campaign theatrics. 03:49, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Part of it is possibly due to the fact that such outragous lies have been used by the "No" campaign to scare people away from voting "Yes." In a normal general election, we have standards to prevent negative campaigning or lying, and any candidate found to have broken the rules can have their result nulled, as happened in Oldham East and Saddleworth. It seems that no such standard applied to the referendum. Bondurant (talk) 07:33, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, election campaigns have rules to prevent fabrication, misinformation and lying and to hold those responsible to account. Referendums have no such protection. So where's my £250 million worth of body armour and maternity wards? ADK ...I'll browbeat your newspaper! 13:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The calculation you always have to make with the lib dems is working out which policies they would implement if they actualy got near power and which they are just saying. Anything activly opposed by the other two parties probably falls into the latter category.Geni (talk) 02:28, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of an Andy Parsons routine on Mock The Week: The Lib Dems could say anything they liked because they have no chance of getting in. Clegg could say anything and if he'd have to admit he didn't expect to get in and the people would say "that's okay Nick, we didn't see that one coming either". Or something, I forget exactly what he said and can't find the video. ADK ...I'll erect your spork! 18:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * It was David Mitchell actually and he said that it would be unpatriotic for the Libdems to have a good idea, because the other two parties would disown it. I love David Mitchell. Furthermore it has similarities to here; when I have a good idea it is universally rejected. 86.45.195.245 (talk) 19:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Where's Susan when we need her?
She'd slap these kiddies upside their head and send them to their room. 02:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't look at me, I didn't eat her. Z-Rex (talk) 02:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I apologize, after looking through userspace, that joke was in really bad taste. Z-Rex (talk) 02:29, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It was an honest mistake. But what children? - Gameboy (talk) 02:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No blood, no foul, Z-Rex. 03:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I miss her, too. 07:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Will someone please think of the children long enough to answer my question? - Gameboy (talk) 04:49, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Shaddup!  Lily Inspirate me. 19:58, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Why have I got the Cisco MeetingPlace call waiting music stuck in my head?
I attend too many conference calls. -- 13:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * it's amazing that something as bland and uninteresting as call music can be so irritating. I prescribe Motorhead's No Sleep til Hammersmith until you forget the earworm. Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 14:26, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No! The only True Cure for an earworm is to replace it with another. -- PsyGremlin  14:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 20:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Psygremlin, I hate you forever. Take this! Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 10:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had this in the back of my head for years now. It is quite annoying. ТyUser_talk:Ty 12:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Try this one. DMorris2 (talk) 14:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Roar of disapproval. Z-Rex (talk) 18:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm probably Being a Noob
What the hell is with the goat thing? Is there any meaning at all? I figured out the demote-promote thing and most other stuff here, but I still don't get the goat thing.Klaus Vos (talk) 03:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * PalMD liked goats and wrote about them. It took off. ТyUser_talk:Ty 03:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC) You just need more goat.  03:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So it is just pure nonsense then.Klaus Vos (talk) 03:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. There is also the long-eared jerboa. 03:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And the Yak, but nobody except me, and possibly Totnes care about the yak. ТyUser_talk:Ty 03:38, 8 May 2011 (UTC)


 * That reminds me. I went to the zoo about a year ago to see the pandas and I took a picture of a goat whilst I was there. How cute is it? -  <font face=times color=black>π    03:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 2.3 squees.ТyUser_talk:Ty 03:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I also took a photo of a goat I saw on the way to Prague. Not so cute. -  <font face=times color=black>π    05:50, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sometimes, there's nothing to figure out. It's just goat. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 09:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * *messily devours the goats* Z-Rex (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

If I remember right, PalMD's thing about goats came from the whole "they assume we're all over here sacrificing goats" gag. It was always a bit of an in-joke. --Kels (talk) 15:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Naw Kels, Petey just likes eating them. 02:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * *messily devours goats, and Petey* Z-Rex (talk) 18:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You're not CUR, are you?  Lily Inspirate me. 19:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Roar meaning: No. Z-Rex (talk) 23:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Logical fallacy
Please help me to identify a logical fallacy. If someone say "No political ideology is wrong. All political ideologies are valid." What is the logical fallacy in this statement? --Jojiggy (talk) 05:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Argument by assertion. 05:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Balance fallacy. -  <font face=times color=black>π    05:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It also sounds like a variant of postmodernism to me.--BobSpring is sprung! 09:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll say vague bullshit. Define "political ideologies," and "wrong," and "valid." Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 09:28, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a slight contradiction to say all things are valid because some can outright fly in each others faces. But that does depend on how you want to define "valid", as it's not necessarily the same as "objectively correct". Indeed, you could just define "valid" as "it's okay to hold that opinion", which is a right protected by free speech. However, I think "balance fallacy" is right. It's a simple statement and doesn't really try to produce an argument so "argument by assertion" doesn't apply (it would if there was no reason, but let's assume there's reasoning behind it that just isn't said for the sake of brevity). <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll throw your candlestick! 09:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of the fallacy of gray, although I'm not sure what the "official" name is. 15:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Relativity of wrong is also an interesting one to bring up there. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll stir your chiffon! 15:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem, as ADK notes, is that political ideologies have a basis in moral or ethical systems, which aren't "wrong" in the same way things are wrong in the factual sense. They can include things that are factually incorrect like Lysenkoism, but that's not the ideology in and of itself. That's why I call this vague bullshit (I guess not even wrong would apply), because it's just too ill-defined to mean anything. Statements like the one in the OP make me want to smack the author upside the head with some Wittgenstein. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 16:01, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Though I don't think "vague" counts as a logical fallacy per se. Something being short and punchy doesn't necessarily invalidate it, otherwise we'd all be in the shitter whenever we said something like "what can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" or "if it disagrees with experiment, it is wrong" or some similarly over-used rhetorical catchphrase - because even these, which we purport to understand, are dependent on how we want to define "evidence" and "wrong". But this is just semantic soup and a terrible way to go about things. If it's saying that all ideologies are factually valid, then this is wrong as it's a contradiction. Ideologies can outright conflict so it's impossible for them to all be valid. Facts are facts and things can be proved wrong. If it's saying that ideologies are valid as in they're fine to hold as they're opinions, then this is better. Indeed, "right" and "wrong", and "valid" and "invalid", become slightly different when you're talking about entirely subjective opinions. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll quantify your cat! 09:18, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Valid, sister!  Lily Inspirate me. 19:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

At last count
41 out of 428 edits so far today have been in the main space. ThunderkatzHo! 17:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Quick! 90/10 ban everyone! -- 17:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * *sigh* Not my point. ThunderkatzHo! 17:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi 'katz! ТyUser_talk:Ty 17:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Ty. Keep up the good work.  ThunderkatzHo! 18:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh the irony: my mainspace:mainspace talk ratio is 11:1 I actually pass the 90/10 rule. ТyUser_talk:Ty 12:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Pictures pictures pictures. Study. Drama. Pictures pictures... ТyUser_talk:Ty 18:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I will finish my massage article eventually. It's already quite fleshed out, I just need to add more modalities.  What exactly is your point, anyways?  This site is as much a discussion forum as it is a wiki.--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 02:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Memories of a distant past, I guess? Then again, back then we were obsessed with CP, so maybe I'm just idealizing.  ThunderkatzHo! 03:12, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You were probably looking for anything to distract from the ultimately pointless debate at the coop. ТyUser_talk:Ty 03:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Shmeh. ThunderkatzHo! 07:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It does destroy the site's credibility. But hey, if that's what people want to use it for, fine. It's not like it's Trent personally footing the bill any more. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll vote your brickbat! 08:36, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Proud Dad moment
Our eldest has just been accepted as a researcher in Tahiti next year for his thesis. He'll be spending some time working with these guys. Ajkgordon (talk) 19:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sea turtles. Squee. ТyUser_talk:Ty 19:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He'll be working on fish and crustaceans re. sustainable fishing. Ajkgordon (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Still, Tahiti. ТyUser_talk:Ty 19:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know. :) Ajkgordon (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He'll be working on fish and crustaceans so free dinner every night as well? <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 19:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No doubt! Ajkgordon (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That is very cool. My dad is a civil engineer and he tests concrete through non-destructive methods.  He is subscribed to a magazine called Cement Monthly.  It's a very dull magazine.  He thinks it's exciting though...  Still, at least I know somewhat more about cement and concrete than your average citizen.  Yesterday he explained to me the chemical reaction that causes cement to harden.  I don't recall anything he said except the word "hydrate."  Nobody cares, I just feel like talking about something.--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 02:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As the fellow fruit of a civil engineer's loins, I feel your pain. -- PsyGremlin  09:37, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You're a fruit?  Lily Inspirate me. 19:53, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Must haz snarticle!
WP:Roy Masters (commentator) is pretty much a whitewash, but this guy is a loon. His version of physics (which he understand none of) is hilarious, among his many other egregious weirdnesses. His radio show is called "Finding God in Physics", as is a book he wrote, apparently. If I get some free time I'll try to get Roy Masters started in a day or two... 01:58, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Masters sees the Biblical story of Adam and Eve as a literal description of how a female tendency to give in to emotionalism can tempt and corrupt both women and men." Keep it classy. From a casual read of that he's crank magnetism personified. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll sell your Volkswagen! 09:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ROAR of disapproval. Z-Rex (talk) 18:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

The pot just called the kettle black
Former Bush aide Andrew Card said Obama "pounded his chest" over getting bin Laden.

Because his boss never ever did that. MDB (talk) 13:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, conservatives are never egotistical. Na, Obama didn't "pound his chest too hard"... it just took him 2 years to do the job that Bush couldn't do in 8. Idiots. Rationalize (talk) 13:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Chest pounding is a liberal value. Deny this and lose all credibility. MDB (talk) 13:35, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no credibility. Z-Rex (talk) 18:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Cactus?
Got Cactus? Got PLA? 173.192.187.133 (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ROAR. Z-Rex (talk) 23:07, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

So I finally got myself a Conservapedia account...
23:30, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Morgellons
There was an article in Saturday's Grauniad about Morgellons, a weird dermatological condition where fibres appear to grow out of the skin. Anybody here know anything about it? 22:09, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've heard about it before, as far as I can tell it's entirely psychosomatic. It's one of those weird popup delusions like alien abduction. -- 22:12, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Got this one covered. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This is one of PalMD's areas of interest. ATP (talk) 04:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've been living with a terminal case of Morgellons for about the last 8 minutes. Nutty Roux (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Paul is not convinced by this diagnosis. He carries an alcohol hand gel everywhere he goes, has four showers a day and steam-cleans his clothes." It may sound counter-intuitive but that sort of activity can actually be very bad for your hygiene, particularly skin care as it can remove the protective outer layer that stops infections running rampant. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll voice your furnace! 15:00, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's only terminal when you connect the mains.  Lily Inspirate me. 15:08, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Two weird questions
So these questions come directly from two episodes of MST3K and they're so random and undefined that I can't really think where to ask them, so I'm putting them here in the hopes that this wonderful cultural melting pot of ideas and experiences can provide an answer.

Firstly, what is this man making here? It's a short film promoting an Industrial Arts class in America (wikipedia says it's from 1956). He's making one out of metal and then one out of plastic, so I assume it's... a thing. Not just some random collection of materials, but an actual thing that was part of classes at some point.

Secondly, what is this ring thing supposed to be? It sounds like the guy's saying "It's a safety" but it looks like a ring with a pen attached to it by wire, and it doesn't come up again in the film (at least, not in the MST3K'd cut of the film) and it's been bugging me like mad.

So yeah, two pretty random questions, but I can't categorise them well enough to figure out where's the proper place to ask. X Stickman (talk) 00:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what the ring is but the metal and plastic pieces are trays for holding stacks of sheets of paper like receipts or notes. Nutty Roux (talk) 18:53, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Grahhhh it looks so simple now I look at it knowing that. I was thinking it had a handle or something and I couldn't figure out why something like that would need one. Thank you. X Stickman (talk) 01:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Educational woo?
Any educators in the house? I've noticed some of the worst neuro-woo and pseudo-psychology seeping into educational theory (e.g., hemispheric dominance, crockus, bullshit personality tests). And there's also the classic New Math. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:26, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hooray for New Math! It's so simple, so very simple, that only a child can do it. Jack Hughes (talk) 14:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And Brain Gym. I consider New Math to be a failed experiment more than woo to be lumped in with that sort of thing. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll defenestrate your rifle! 16:30, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I would just like to say that going by our math level template, my classes were more advanced than everyone else's. ТyUser_talk:Ty 16:33, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Digital dark age
Any opinions on the concept of a digital dark age? I was thinking about doing some more research and making an article on it, since I'm not entirely convinced that it'S not just another version of the "end of the world!!!" beliefs that people spout. Ideas? άλφα Talk 06:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Never heard of it to be honest. Crack on with an article if you think it's worth it, sounds interesting. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll regurgitate your Suzuki!  07:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I came across the expression when doing some work on long-term data storage. All about how to include programmes and/or equipment to read or access the data with the data itself. The Dark Age referred to not being able to read the data in the future because of obsolescence rather than any sort of apocalypse. Ajkgordon (talk) 07:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I heard of it in that context too. Formats like WordStar's .ws files were once pretty ubiquitous, but these days are used by almost nobody. IMG and PCX files for images, too. Now while importers for those formats are still common, will it always be the case? –SuspectedReplicant retire me 08:02, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, in which case I have heard of it. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll ameliorate your cuddly toy! 08:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the risk is overrated. If you look on the Internet, you can still find emulators for 1960s IBM mainframes, and copies of the software that runs on them... some things have been lost to time, yes, but a fair bit is being preserved. Even when all the commercial interest dies, the hobbyists keep old stuff alive. Besides, even if you lose all software that can read a data format, you can probably reverse engineer it with a bit of effort. -- 09:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the concept is a bit more long term than just thinking back to 1960s mainframes. We're talking the equivalent of modern computers reading ticker-tapes and inputs for difference engines more than outdated file types and electronics. Sure, those dedicated to re-translating it would keep it alive, but more in the sense of reading hieroglyphics than downloading a suitable emulator. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll anglicise your plastic! 09:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. The project I worked on was a very simple one to do with time capsules designed to be opened in a hundred years or so. Lots of suggestions for including a USB key with jpegs, pdfs, mpgs, etc. I didn't stay to the end of the project so don't know how it was resolved but there was a general study about how we are very complacent that simply storing files in today's formats is a good way to go. The British Library did one on this a few years ago when it started digitising. No doubt there are others. Ajkgordon (talk) 09:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I USB drive alone is problematic because the physical object might not fit - hell, a time capsule with a mini-disc from 10 years ago would cause problems if anyone wanted to read it, and 4" floppies from 20 years ago? Fat chance anyone other than a computer specialist would have that technology on them any more. I have one working 3 1/2 inch A: drive in an office of over a dozen computers. We can presume file types would persist well enough because compression algorithms are about as good as they're going to get so have no reason to change. However, with improvements in bandwidth and the cheapness of space, high compression formats like jpegs might disappear in favour of lossless formats. There are many issues cropping up between FAT32 and NTFS too, not to mention the hoops you need to jump through to have 32-bit software run on 64-bit machines. Emulation only gets you so far but is also dependent on you knowing how to make the emulator and getting the data to run. A copy of ZSNES is no use if you can't read from the old SNES cartridge, for instance. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll swim your flan! 10:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * My view is that you have to include all essential hardware and software to read the data. So, you'd put a laptop computer in the time capsule. You'd have to assume that future civilizations could figure out how to generate AC or DC of the needed voltage, but that seems a much safer bet than assuming they could read a specific data format. Doctor Dark (talk) 13:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

A few years ago, NPR did an April Fools Day story claiming the Library of Congress (or maybe the Smithsonian) was trying to make sure future generations would be able to enjoy their music library. The solution was to use a very simple recording format that only takes a modicum of technological knowledge to create a playback mechanism, and they were converting their entire music library to wax cylinders. They were, admittedly, concerned about the amound of warehouse space it would take... MDB (talk) 13:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Speaking of power supplies, back in the day sockets weren't standardised, yet alone voltages, currents and frequencies. Odds are without very specific instructions and a transformer included, you could risk blowing up the hardware or destroying the information with a power spike. And that sort of thing is particularly relevant to digital data. It's easy enough to look at a book and make a photocopy or take photos, but if merely the act of trying to look at the digital data risks wiping it (iPod syncing, anyone?) it'd be much harder to create a copy before you test it out. It also seems that the more digital, the more fragile it would be. Flash memory could get wiped by a power spike or strong EM field, whereas at least with a CD there's the physical structure to fall back on. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll adhere your igneous protrusion! 13:38, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They're not standardised today and don't look like being any time soon either.
 * As an aside, there is a very cool and simple invention for the UK plug. Makes it rather more compact. Don't know if it's been approved yet though. Ajkgordon (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen that some time ago and I suspect that very serious people with very serious faces and in very serious suits didn't like all those moving parts. Sen (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You can also get British plugs where the pins fold into the main body; the earth pin folds down, so the tip is pointing to the cable, and the live/neutral pins fold up, pointing past the earth pin. CS Miller (talk) 14:44, 9 May 2011 (UTC) - like this 14:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They aren't standard world-wide, but compared to how it was we have practically homogeneous power supplies. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll plagiarize your xenomorph! 14:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Plug an American 100W light bulb into a British socket. See how practical that is!
 * I presume you mean compared to the early days of little competing local DC supplies in American cities. Sounds terrifying when you read about it. Ajkgordon (talk) 14:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not all the plugs in my house are modern standard. ТyUser_talk:Ty 15:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the time when the average travel adapter didn't fit into the suitcase because it was the suitcase. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll ruminate your copy-paste! 15:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I started thinking about the issue a few years ago when I dealt with one of the researchers in my workplace who kept hundreds of 5.25" floppy disks with research on them. Every once in a while he would come down to the IT lab and ask us to move some data over to a more updated medium... άλφα Talk 22:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Coincidentally, this is in the news today. Ajkgordon (talk) 12:05, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

A bit of a side subject
This is a question for the linguists/historians out there...

What is the likelihood of a currently common human language dying out, like Latin or ancient Greek did? Is it possible that in say, the year 3000, English or Japanese or Arabic or whatever could be like Latin is today, only understood by scholars and lacking anyone who speaks it as their native tongue?

And a bit further afield... it is possible that with increasing globalization, we'll see humanity reach a global language in the future? (Right now, I'd bet on a mix of English and Chinese, with some Hindi thrown in.) MDB (talk) 14:46, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Inevitable if we all stay on the same planet and don't blow ourselves up. Which is a big ask by 3000. Ajkgordon (talk) 14:54, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * English itself is adapting pretty quick. While I'm sure we can understand things written 100 years ago, txt speak, computer jargon (just to use what is happening now) and other idioms make talking casually from generation to generation in the same language pretty difficult. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll jostle your book! 14:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, Shakespeare was writing 400 years ago, and his works are still largely understandable.


 * In fact, Isaac Asimov (I think) argued that Shakespeare's works were so great, English would never evolve to the point his works would no longer be understandable to current speakers. That's a rather debatable claim, admittedly, but it's an interesting theory, at least. MDB (talk) 15:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you require some effort to get through the blank verse and some of the ye olde references, though. Even going through some of Gilbert & Sullivan takes a bit of concentration. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll earn your hotel! 15:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * How much of that is due to it referencing the culture of the day, though? For instance, I'd be perfectly able to read a British novel that satirizes UK politics, but I wouldn't get a lot of the jokes.


 * As for G&S and Shakespeare's blank verse, poetry (G&S's lyrics are essentially poetry, just sung, not read or spoken) is generally harder to read than prose, just because it generally plays more loosely with grammatical rules. MDB (talk) 15:15, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It shows some degree of alteration in language based on style and fashion of the time. It's not the be-all and end-all of language changes/doesn't change, of course. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll dry your noun! 15:24, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I wonder if it's possible these days that two dialects of English will actually become mutually unintelligible. There does seem to be some evidence of evolution apart from each other, for example British English seems to be losing the redundant -al suffix from adjectives, while US English is preserving them and even adding it to words where it was never used before. On the other hand, I'm not sure if modern communication will permit these microevolutionary trends to be compiled in to macroevolutionary differences. I don't see how any written work, even Shakespeare is going to be an anchor though, we already consider the English used archaic and many school children learn vocabulary from them they will probably never use elsewhere. I can well see it getting to the point where not only the vocabulary but also the grammar is archaic and unintelligible without study. -- 16:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If I was to copy/paste some stuff from Facebook to illustrate where people have written in a cross between text-speak and phonetically writing their accent/dialect, I think you'd agree that for practical purposes I speak two languages. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll roll your tuba! 16:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps differences in a common language like English will vary less geographically but will be more dependent on media, generation and profession. Ajkgordon (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There's still a very strong geographic difference in the UK when it comes to language, it's showing no signs of fizzling out although the days when the police had to take translators with them when they went deep into the country are probably behind us. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll wash your riddle! 19:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it will be a long tome coming. I thought we were talking on the scale of hundreds of years though. Ajkgordon (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I read somewhere that the original Hawaiian language is pretty dead. 67.72.98.45 (talk) 19:38, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They seem to speak some weird dialect in the south-east of England because whenever I go down to London I end up speaking very loudly and waving my hands a lot in order to make myself understood. Whereas when I visit Wales they understand every word I say although they apparently cannot speak a single word of English.  Lily Inspirate me. 19:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course English will splinter. There are a number of varieties of English today which are pretty incomprehensible to mainstream speakers. Glaswegian in the UK and Ebony in the US for instance.
 * And Shakespeare is pretty borderline understandable in its written form for most people today.--BobSpring is sprung! 20:19, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone understand this? <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll program your lobster! 23:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Need help please
Just installed a Blu-ray rom/DVD Rom drive to the PC via SATA. Boot up and everything is fine, the device is detected through BIOS as a SATA slave. Load into Windows 7 and the device is located, the drivers installed and it appears under the Computer tab. Insert a disk (DVD or Blu-Ray) the drive can't read it and after about 30 seconds Windows 7 stops detecting the drive. If you then do a system restart from Windows the BIOS can't detect the drive either. However, do a cold boot from shutdown and the drive reappears both under BIOS and Windows 7 up until I put a disc in. Bollocksed drive, or something else?-- 14:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * sounds like wrong driver. What does the hardware manager say ? what make and model ? did it have a driver disk or did it use microsofts driver ? Hamster (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be worth swapping the cables over between your computer's HD and the new ROM drive, to make sure it isn't the cable or indeed even the port that's dodgy and to make sure the connector is well seated. Other than that, if it still doesn't work I'd assume it's faulty and get a replacement. Life's too short. -- 15:41, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, one other thing that may marginally be possible. If your power supply is severely underspecified for the machine it's running, it's possible that you simply don't have enough power to run a rotating drive. Though the general symptoms of that are that the motherboard brownout detector trips and the machine resets. -- 15:47, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If it ain't fixxed yet.....Try setting it up as the secondary IDE master (for testing) Hopefully the guy you bought it from will still be parked in the same place and you can wrestle him to get your $35.00 back 17:47, 12 May 2011 (UTC) C ® ackeЯ
 * Mmm, didn't think of swapping the cables around. Still, I've got a replacement arriving tomorrow (good ol' Amazon), so I'll see if the replacement runs any better.  I don't think it's going to be a PSU problem, because the Blu-Ray was replacing a DVD-Rom and there shouldn't be that huge a wattage difference.  The other thing I can try if the replacement doesn't work is swap over the power cables, 'cause I was using a molex converter to get the Blu-Ray to run.  But I can't see that being a problem, as I said, the damn thing could draw enough power to be detected.  As for drivers - there aren't any, just the generic Microsoft ones, but nobody else on Amazon seems to have had problem with them so...  Quick question, can SATA drives be set as masters and slaves, or is it just a priority based on the port they connect to?  Oh, and thanks for the help so far.-- 18:12, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, SATA has no concept of daisy chaining. You plug one thing in to one port, period. Bus multiplexing is all done at the controller level. Makes it much easier for consumers that way, at least until they realise that they might want to plug more things in than their motherboard has sockets for. -- 18:35, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Okely Dokely. Thanks.-- 21:17, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are SATA splitters (port multipliers), but you don't want those. They're mostly for a server environment, where you might need lots of storage and not care about maximum throughput. They also require support in the software and hardware that is possibly missing from your consumer equipment. There is no reason you'd need drivers for any optical drive made in the last... 15+ years, so that's fine. It is barely conceivable but unlikely that you'd need drivers for the SATA controller (if it doesn't do AHCI which is the standard) but in that case it would never have worked at all, plugging a different drive in wouldn't suddenly trigger that. The Molex converter could theoretically be a problem because SATA specifies an additional voltage not present on the old Molex power connectors, but I'd doubt that because most drive manufacturers just sighed and didn't use the new voltage knowing their customers would all return things when a Molex converter didn't work. It is definitely possible the drive is screwed, and the replacement should definitely help rule that out. 82.69.171.94 (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Calling all fellow Blizzard fans!
23:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Acustrapen
So I have been doing some consumerism today and noticed those things in the drug section of a big chain supermarket. It's a bunch of plastic straps that must cost around 0.1p to manufacture and which supposently accupuncturize away your motion sickness. I take it its complete BS and worthy to have the name of their business permanetly linked with the word scam in a RW article? Sen (talk) 18:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * My mother uses those, but with cloth on them as well. Write away. ТyUser_talk:Ty 18:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I used a version of these (cloth with plastic piece on it) on a quite a few really bad ferry crossings after I reacted badly to normal medication. They work quite well. Don't know how/why though - not a medical person. --[[Image:TheEgyptiansig001.png|link=User:TheEgyptian]] 23:44, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Psychosomatic/placebo, perhaps? Totnesmartin (talk) 08:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I remember these being discussed at one point but can't remember the brand name they were under then. There's one piece of research looking into them that said they do work, but the blinding and control was absolutely worthless. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll feel your kumquat! 10:14, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC)Distraction therapy perhaps? You start to feel queasy so you automatically look down at the wristbands and your mind both notes and feels the pressure of the bands superseding the preceding feeling of nausea.  I suppose it helps that as you look down at the wristbands you also look towards the floor, so unless things are particularly rough your field of vision reports something that is relativistically still (the bands help create the illusion that the background is still, either because you aren't moving your wrists at the time, so both wrists and floor move in sync with each other, and so your brain reports it as still, or you are moving your wrists and so your mind locks the background off as being still and processes the movement of your wrists as normal movement).  Or it could all be bollocks (the explanation that is).-- 10:17, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds placebo-ishSen (talk) 12:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They're called sea bands in their travel nausea related incarnation. They used to sell them on ferries when I was a kid. No idea whether they work or not, since I don't really get sea sick even in the worst weather. -- 15:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sea Bands! That's the one I remember looking at last time. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll voice your fealty! 16:52, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Good article here. I admit I bought them for my daughter when we went on a sailing holiday. She was very susceptible to motion sickness. Placebo or not, they did the trick. Ajkgordon (talk) 17:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wallyworld had some of the 'energy bracelet' type things in the check-out aisle impulse buy area. I looked it over and got a chuckle at how little they actually said on the package, espcially how 'might' was put as a smaller font in front of the few, very vague claims.  Me, I'm just going to stick with my Placebo-Bands. Ravenhull (talk) 08:21, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I will sell you the most advanced placebo known to man. Email me to discuss price and payment details. My theory, proven accurate 100% of the time, is the more money you cough up, the more effective the placebo becomes. The more you pay for the cure, the greater your self-interest in believing that the cure has actually worked! 08:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Obi-Wan Kenobi Is Dead, Vader Says
Link. Ajkgordon (talk) 15:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Awesome comments. Senator Harrison (talk) 17:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The Death Star was an inside job. There's no way a single engine fighter could bring down something so massive! MDB (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Aren't there four engines on an x-wing? Senator Harrison (talk) 21:38, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 4 sublight engines + hyperdrive. ТyUser_talk:Ty 21:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Can anybody explain to me why in some publications his name is spelled "Obi-Wan" and in others it is spelled "Ubi-Wan"?" <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 09:22, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and "Sadly, even this victory likely won't satisfy Vader's critics -- they can't stand that he is black." <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 09:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Personality rights and stuff
This is an odd point but I just wondered if anyone knows or can point me in the right direction. Consider wp:personality rights, the right to ones likeness. This is the law, similar to trademarks, that says that while I can own the copyright of a photograph of someone they have certain unalienable rights to its use because it's their likeness. It allows someone to have control over their image and so on. Now here's the thought; what about medical scanning data. On the face of it, it counts as experimental data and someone can request it to be removed from the file (it's not exactly "an original work" that can be defined by copyright). But, consider that someone uses this data for something else. E.g., a 3D model of a brain that's used as a logo for a site that will remain nameless. Obviously, a brain is hidden so you can't just identify a "likeness", exactly, but it is still part of someone so they own the personality rights to it... or do they because they can't really be identified from it? It seems to be a legal clusterfuck for which I can't figure out what occurs. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll pasteurize your Volvo! 17:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The law can never be all-encompassing... judges will just have to rule on a case by case basis, considering precedents where appropriate just like normal, and awarding damages in lieue of any legally specified punishments. If the issue becomes prevalent enough the law may be changed/clarified to make it easier to deal with. I'm not a lawyer but this is my understanding of how it works. ONE / TALK 08:58, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Comical yap

 * Despite your liberal deceit, through the use of my brain I am more than able to identify the site that remains "nameless". Having just admited that you illegally used someone's brain likeness to create RationalWiki's logo I shall now proceed to report you to the Florida deparment of agriculture and chickens. DMorris3 (talk) 19:17, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yawn. ТyUser_talk:Ty 19:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * DMorris3, cease and desist immediately from abusing my personality rights in your account name. Or else I will report you to Otto von Bismarck. DMorris4 (talk) 20:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It is MY brain. 72.38.27.39 (talk) 20:04, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Satire, however, is exempt, so just write "for the lulz" next to the image and you're good to go. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * you can try "Right of publicity" which is a state law protecting the use of ones likeness in any way. That would not apply to x-rays or other medical scans though. 67.72.98.47 (talk) 16:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The Metro fails... again....
[http://www.metro.co.uk/news/863041-half-of-graduates-out-of-work-or-in-poor-jobs 52% of last years graduates (15,655 people) couldn't find a job last year. This year, 50% of them (a whopping 59,000 people) still havn't found decent jobs.]

Ouch. I think my head just exploded. -- 20:43, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Presumably that's just a typo, and they mean 5900. That would make it make sense. -- 20:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What surprised me was that this originally appeared in the print edition. Fair enough can't be changed there, but when I got home checked it online and saw it there too, so been there all day and no-one edited it or put out a correction. The Metro, keeping journalism professional... --[[Image:TheEgyptiansig001.png|link=User:TheEgyptian]] 21:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the useless thing they give away in the street, isn't it? In millenia to come archaeologists will call today the Metro era for the thick layer of free newspapers that nobody wanted. Totnesmartin (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Surely we have more uni graduates per year than that? EddyP Great King! Disaster! 22:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of students that never graduate. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 23:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's basically the free version of the Daily Mail. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll absolve your microcosm! 23:44, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 5900 still isn't 50% of 15655. Jesus, that article is too shit to take any meaningful lesson from it. ONE / TALK 08:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * RTFA. 50% was a typo here on RW. The article says 20%, and 5900 is ~20% of 31000. -- 23:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

it's not a fucking war, it's just a cool site
just saying, for anyone who might have forgotten, or not noticed. we don't need kings or knights or castles (much, see user page, chess analogy fell apart is all). we just want to have fun building the best anti-anti-mission site on the tubez. 07:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Academics take on Speaker Boehner
It's interesting because the anti-abortionists no longer guarantee the Catholic vote. http://ncronline.org/blogs/distinctly-catholic/breaking-news-catholic-academics-challenge-boehner 07:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Because of RatWiki
Anyone here hear of a movie based on a book named Because of Rat-Wiki? About a dog that was trolling at a Rat-Wiki and was adopted by a little girl who named him after the place he was trolling, Rat-Wiki? Seriously.
 * Winn-Dixie? 01:49, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Bible based woo-pushers get smacked by the FTC and FDA
Run to WorldNutDaily crying about it. Do like the bible quote filled brief though, nice touch. -  <font face=times color=black>π    05:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh man, that "Hijacking Science" magazine has to be one of the biggest gold mines ever. I didn't realize my research had been fraudulent all along! How will I live with myself?! Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 05:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah I have been meaning to buy a copy of that. There is no great authority on climate science and evolutionary biology than a group of fringe journalists. -  <font face=times color=black>π    05:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fringe journalists? Bull. They've got experts like Arthur Robinson, Jerome Corsi, and Alan Keyes! Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 05:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Extremely minor annoyance
But has Firefox swap open in new tab and open in new window on the right-click menu on verison 4? All day I have been clicking open new window on my laptop. -  <font face=times color=black>π    12:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was annoying at first, but I got used to it after a while. ТyUser_talk:Ty 12:28, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not nearly as annoying as the annoying changes in Ubuntu 11.04. Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 12:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hear! Hear! why? --Scream!! (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Should that be:"Here! Here!"? Anyhow still why? --Scream!! (talk) 14:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes and it's really annoying. Getting used to it, but still end up opening new windows. Classic example of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' -- PsyGremlin  12:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC)...  "Boo boo, I don't like Unity.  I'm too much of a noob to change my window manager.  I'm going to insert this opinion wherever I can, no matter how irrelevant."  Fixed it for you.   12:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * How very dare you! For this, i shall bitch about you on RWW. see how you like that! Real first name and last initialTalk, talk, talk skim my contributions 15:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's either that or GNOME shell. Z-Rex (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Or KDE -- Nx  / talk 19:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You could just learn the keyboard shortcuts, then you wouldn't have this problem. They're shift- and ctrl-click in case you're wondering. -- 14:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have gotten use to it. Firefox4 looks real nice. I just wish Mozilla had a more proactive way of dealing with plugin incompatability than "contact the person who manages it and tell them it no longer works" - so helpful. -  <font face=times color=black>π    14:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I use midori for editing here, for some reason I cannot login with firefox. Z-Rex (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Pi, you can rearrange all that stuff to where you want it. Just right-click in the general vicinity. Some stuff was a bit weird, I agree, but mostly improovmints. 02:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit late to this party, but you could try re-arranging the context menu items with Menu Editor - I've been using it for a while to hide away some items I never use, but you can also simply drag&drop items around. --Sid (talk) 01:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

speaking of the new Firefox
I used to use this script javascript:if(!document.referrer)%20alert("No%20referrer!");%20else%20document.location%20=%20document.referrer;%20void%200 To return me to whatever page led me to my current tab. Now with the new Firefox it seems to only bring me back to the same page. Can any of you computer skilled persons help me?---brxbrx 02:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Apparently not. Z-Rex (talk) 18:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I just tried it, and it seems to work for me (made a new bookmark, copypasted the entire line into the location, then opened somebody's talk page here in a new tab and in that tab clicked the link - took me back to the Saloon Bar). Maybe the problem is elsewhere? --Sid (talk) 01:38, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Linux gripes
As long as we are on gripes about Linux, I have just attempted to use the new "GNOME Shell" interface. This piece of trash, with which the GNOME people drop all pretense that their goal is not a cheap knock-off of Aqua, seems to be a result of pitching out most of the good parts of GNOME Panel and bringing in the worst parts of Aqua, such as lack of configurability and such a simplified user interface that a chimpanzee could understand it (although not a human being, who, as we all know, is confused by more than one button on the mouse to click, even when not faced with the inscrutable conundrum of where to click it). So, I will probably be switching to Xfce at the next update. 18:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ubuntu now uses their own, rather than GNOME Shell. I still fail to see what was wrong with the panels. ТyUser_talk:Ty 18:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Xfce is boring as hell, but at least it's unobtrusive. Unity sucks a bag of dicks. Are you on Ubuntu? If so, switch to "Ubuntu classic" on your login screen. Occasionaluse (talk) 18:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Unity is way to glitzy for me. ТyUser_talk:Ty 18:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I am working on spreading the meme "Ubuntu Vista". I will be switching to Debian shortly, now my netbook's wifi is supported - David Gerard (talk) 22:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux. -Richard Stallman
 * You keep telling yourself that rms. When's HURD going to be finished? It's been how many years now? Z-Rex (talk) 19:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I find Motif works pretty well. Then again, things like web browsing or so on I mostly do with Windows. I mostly just use Linux via PuTTY/SSH... my VNC with mwm is just to run some GUI fat client admin tools, e.g. Oracle Database Creation Assistant (the horror!!!), etc. 19:58, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Has anyone else noticed that in Firefox 4 the "save open tabs" function which used to active when closing the web browser no longer works? Junggai (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope, works fine for me. ТyUser_talk:Ty 22:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Game
Yay! I finally got my android game development book through the post. Anyone (apart from Nutty / Ace) have any ideas for games for me to code? <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 13:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Snooker or billiards might be cool on a touch screen.  Lily Inspirate me. 15:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think I'll start with something a bit less "physicsy" :) <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 15:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Cricket! -- PsyGremlin  15:54, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I concur! --Dumpling (talk) 16:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The world needs an android laser squad clone. Go make it. -- 16:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Angry Birds Marsupials!  19:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dwarf Fortress. ТyUser_talk:Ty 19:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * DF on android! I would be addicted & never stop playing, but it would be so worth it. NDSP 20:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * RationalWiki mobile? 23:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I really liked the Air Control game. I wanted to make a game that works in a simialr fashion but with a seaport instead. I like the idea of something pseudoscience-related though. ONE / TALK 08:43, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I just had a brilliant idea for a game that would work well either as a FPS or turn based strategy. It'd be called PETA Commandos. You control a crack squad of heavily armed animal liberation commandos who gun down hordes of security guards to avenge trifling slights against animals. e.g. mission one, Little Timmy Forgets To Feed His Goldfish. You must infiltrate Timmy's house to rescue his mildly distressed fish. The payoff being at the end of the level a cutscene depicting the final moments of the raid, where the lead commando puts a bullet through little Timmy's head, accidentally shattering the goldfish bowl in the process. Repeat ad nauseum. Is it too soon to whisper "Oscar"? -- 23:34, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It could a sequel to the PETA Cooking Mama game. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 01:59, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Cricket would be awesome, but I don't think I'll have the skillz to do that for quite a while (unless I join forces with some like-minded coders). Just looking at Laser Squad now, which I'd never heard of. What's DF? Oh, and as for RW mobile, there already is a Wikipedia mobile app, I presume it just plugs into the API of a particular MediaWiki installation so could we not track down the source code, hack it, and release it? <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 10:42, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a countless amount of board games which mobile versions I'd pay real money for. Vulpius (talk) 11:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Such as Conservative Monopoly?  Lily Inspirate me. 11:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Port over Chaos Island. ROAR. Z-Rex (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Radio plug
In a typically vague and Devonian update, I may or may not be on the radio tonight. If I am I'll be playing a selection of rather odd "music" at 7:30GMT here. Potential stuff to be played may or may not include The Beta Band, Delia Derbyshire, Anne Briggs, the A Band and Raymond Scott (look 'em up). Listen or don't. Totnesmartin (talk) 15:41, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Would if I could, but it seems they don't stream? We'll have to keep an eye out for the podcast. -- PsyGremlin  15:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Odd...works fine for me. UK only perhaps? Totnesmartin (talk) 16:13, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Went OK in the end. Didn't make any major mistakes but I did talk a bit too fast. I'll post up a playlist if anyone cares. Totnesmartin (talk) 22:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Playlist it. I don't think anyone really listens to community radio to hear smooth-talking DJs or perfectly seamless programming, either. My old time slot at the college radio gig ran past midnight and I used to fuck around with all the potheads listening at that hour by playing stuff at the wrong speed or digging up old William Shatner records. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 22:28, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * William Shatner...sadly my copy of Rocket Man is a bit too low quality for the radio. Mister Tambourine Man, though...yeesss... Totnesmartin (talk) 09:44, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

:(
Goat serial killer strikes! Totnesmartin (talk) 21:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't even know they made goat cereal. Doctor Dark (talk) 01:55, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They used to. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Roar of disapproval. Z-Rex (talk) 12:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Another Fascism
Hitlerocracy is a name for a popular form of government among dictators. Hitlerocracy is form of totalitarian government that has a high cult-of-personality. Now, I came up with the term because Fascism is too boring. Call your political enemies Hitlerocrats instead fascists. Leninist123 (talk) 21:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, go old school and call them bourgeois counter-revolunaries. Then play some Crass records. Totnesmartin (talk) 21:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, go even older school and call them Romans. Leninist123 (talk) 21:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fan-bearers on the Right Side of the King! Totnesmartin (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ahem, Godwin's law anyone? ТyUser_talk:Ty 22:10, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Reductio ad Hitlerium taken almost too far methinks. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll fumble your exhaust pipe! 22:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * reductio ad ṯa(.y)-ḫw ḥr wnmy n nswum is much better. Totnesmartin (talk) 13:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Undeniable evidence man and dinosaur existed together!!!
I found the proof!!!! Unfortunately I discovered it wasn't meant to be some 10 paces from the alleged "stegosaurus". See here for details. Ace of Spades 01:58, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd be more concerned about that odd looking man-monkey-lion thing with the tiny penis at the bottom of those glyphs. If the one in the middle is a stegosaurus, what the hell is that? <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll untie your vomit! 02:08, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ROAR Z-Rex (talk) 12:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Auto-facebook chat
No good shall come of it. Tmtoulouse (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right, I just read last night's conversation. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Autowhatnow? --Sid (talk) 17:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * A new feature on facebook groups 2.0. They have a mini-chatroom so people you sort-of know online can talk about nothing in particular and bitch about people not in the group. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I disjoined such an group, only 4-8 people ever posted there from a group of about 170 people. I rated it "worse-than-useless". YMMV. 20:59, 14 May 2011 (UTC) C ® ackeЯ
 * that's exactly what the RW group is like! Totnesmartin (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And i just hit return tpo post that. Totnesmartin (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Is this wiki to much SERIOUS INTERNET BUSINESS for this idea?
I have for a long time wanted to write a script for a rouge admin that goes around harassing and abusing editors. This was inspired by something Human once said about Pibot's blocking script. I thought it would be entertaining to see if we can break the Turing test with a TK emulator. -  <font face=times color=black>π    07:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you insane? Haven't you seen 'Terminator'?AMassiveGay (talk) 09:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Given that the Schlafly Generator can be quite bang on, it wouldn't be too hard. That said, the Turing Test requires that the computer emulate a human being, not emulate TK. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll assassinate your equestrian! 12:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Roar of approval. Z-Rex (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have created the account, if someone could sysop it that would be a good start. -  <font face=times color=black>π    12:42, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, let's see where this goes. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll lick your raccoon! 12:45, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC) done. ТyUser_talk:Ty 12:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * A lot of the stuff I can program, but his abuse is going to need that Schlafly touch. Its main text thing will be User:Rouge admin/abuse generator. -  <font face=times color=black>π    12:49, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * TK style abuse was more interest offline. Karajou is the real motherfucker. But why not take the easy way out and write a bot that follows people around the wiki adding 3 bytes to every mainspace edit they make or insipidly trying to blow weaksauce smoke up their asses and otherwise saying and doing nothing of any real substance or interest. Extra points for making it whine about its edit count.  Nutty Roux (talk) 13:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if I could make it follow a victim for a while and block them for replying. -  <font face=times color=black>π    13:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Rouge Admin"? Is that to scare ListenerX? -- 15:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC
 * 15:47, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @Pi: I take it all back. Some of TK's CP style was a delight to watch and is super easy to emulate. Have it revert a few edits without explanation, post something vaguely hectoring referring to non-existent rules, and once he or she responds block the editor infinitely with a dramatic comment referring to off-wiki harassment, liberals, and/or the editor's many chances to conform to said non-existent rules. Nutty Roux (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't forget a creepy "I know where you live!" reference. -- PsyGremlin  15:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Can we add some random youtube videos? Tmtoulouse (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be appropriate for the Kendoll style abuse generator as long as they're in the edit comment and are accompanied by an "Olé olé olé" or a reference to lack of machismo. Nutty Roux (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think he already writes his stuff with the aid of a Markov chain already. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll run your tooth! 16:37, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * :) Also, if the NorthWestern study report on the "very religious" like the Gallup study used generalized linear model analysis with very relevant variables) and other data Conservapedia brought forth if you want to play the geography game like some atheist "blag hag", I would remind you that most Christians are non-western today and most non-westerners are quite thin plus the Gallup study used generalized linear model analysis with very relevant variables) in relation to religiousity and health practices. Nutty Roux (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I am totally about to abuse that site... <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll dry your heretic! 17:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Totnesmartin for crat
So I can kick people's arses. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * what? You aren't one already? TRAVESTY!!! Heads will roll! -- PsyGremlin  12:43, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I was, but I gave it up when i moved house and was offline for several months. I wd liek crat back plz. Totnesmartin (talk) 13:30, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ewe az em. -- PsyGremlin  13:58, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Grr
vaccine twats on facebook grinding my gears somewhat. Just venting here rather than causing facebook HCM. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:43, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * FB HCM FTW. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll bomb your loser! 12:37, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Weather changing weapons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHfZBQyr2Fs

Guy gets drunk and reveals the existence of Russian super weapons. At least that's what the subtitles say, we all know about the faked chemtrails one. :S Hilarious anyway. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll deport your copy-paste! 13:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Cranks are fun to watch
Robert Fitzpatrick Spent Life Savings Telling People World Will End May 21, 2011. He's going to be really unhappy May 22nd. I love watching cranks abuse themselves, it's almost like performance art. Like the old saying goes "Hit a moron with a fish and it's funny, teach a moron to hit themselves with a fish and you have entertainment for life." ~ Subsound ~ 13:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You won't be laughing if he is right for once. -  <font face=times color=black>π    13:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've asked Xian acquaintances if they'll leave me their car and house keys on the evening of the 20th, seeing as they won't be needing them anymore. Still waiting... -- PsyGremlin  14:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Feh. Permission is for wimps. I'll be looting my Christian neighbours' houses if they're raptured. I'm sure Jebus will forgive me. -- 14:09, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Shotgun the Pope's hat. EddyP Great King! Disaster! 14:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He'll still be wearing it if Jack Chick is right. Totnesmartin (talk) 14:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw a few guys wearing THE WORLD WILL END MAY 21 sandwich signs and handing out THE WORLD WILL END MAY 21 flyers. I'm in Bulgaria but the sandwich signs were in English and the date format was American. Apparently these guys are honestly trying to reach literally the entire planet. You could almost feel sorry for them. Mountain Blue (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We won't be laughing if he's right. But in the words of Tim Minchin "And when I’ve recovered from the shock I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my cock." <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll ameliorate your Texas! 16:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I bet they got one-way tickets. C ® ackeЯ
 * I should own a printworks in the bible belt, I'd love to make a living taking money off these idiots. Totnesmartin (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In reply to people who said something like, "We'll be really embarrassed if he's right": There's absolutely no reason to let other people's expectations to privilege that hypothesis. It's equally likely that the world will end on the 20th, but no one worries about that because no one is talking about it. Simply put, there's absolutely no reason to give special consideration to a hypothesis just because a bunch of nutters take it seriously. 17:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * While true, I think the "embarrassment" thing is just snarky rhetoric rather than anything to be taken seriously. Also, people aren't saying it will end on the 20th, and we're outright trashing the people who will say it ends on the 21st. If it ends on the 20th or earlier, there's egg all round. But if we're saying these guys are full of shit and they then happen to be right, well, see the Tim Minchin quote above. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll shove your snake! 17:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think I get what you mean now. Although it's based on the assumption that there's equal probability of the world ending any time. A rational position to take in the face of a lack of evidence, but lets spin the tables around and pretend we're the doomsayers; we obviously would think the world will end with a far higher probability on the 21st so there is a reason to give it privilege. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll murder your cardboard box! 17:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just pointing out the absurdity of focusing on this particular scenario. Any day is pretty much equally likely. (I don't think the beliefs of a bunch of religious people are a reason to significantly alter my own probability distribution.) 17:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I should have said: it's absurd for us to focus on this scenario. Obviously if your epistemology comes from a Bronze Age book, things are going to be a little different. 17:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is absurd in that sense. However, I do feel its justified in the sense that RW is primarily a skepticism and debunking website. So for that to happen you have to look and pay attention to what people believe, no matter how far fetched they are. And I don't feel you can successfully show the absurdity of a belief without first giving it some legitimacy. So from the POV of RW, as opposed to Less Wrong, we have to make the assumption that the crank is correct - and so we prove them wrong by saying "on May 22nd, we're going to collectively laugh our asses off at you". Giving undue privilege to a hypothesis just because more people believe it is a side effect of this process. This is why in a religious debate you would focus on the teachings of a specific religion, e.g., Christianity, rather than try to make some abstract generalisation of "religion" where all religious belief, expressed or not expressed in reality, are equally unlikely to be true. Starting from base principles and saying that all end-of-the-world scenarios are equally unlikely and can be ignored as such is, frankly, not as fun as an approach. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll push your couch potato! 17:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I certainly can't argue with that. I know I'll be laughing at some people I know come the 22nd. 18:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless they're right. :p <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll accentuate your peat moss! 18:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I want to set up a business like this, except I could cut costs even more by making it a dot com. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Dramastorm on (yet) another wiki!
I looked at the recent changes of the Dungeons and Dragons wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com), and saw that Jazzman831 had blocked someone, and replied to them on a talk page titled | Talk:God, Christian Faith. I investigated further, looking through edit histories, and saw that there was a persistent dispute between Jazzman831 and a user called Archetyper, who was trying to clean up the religious propaganda on the wiki. But Jazzman831 wouldn't allow that to happen, so he restored the propaganda, protected the pages, and used a flimsy excuse to block Archetyper for a whole week. Talk about 'knocking over the pieces and crapping on the board'. 18:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Conservapedia editor Jazzman831 / HelpJazz who is bullying non-Christians on the Dungeons and Dragons wiki must be stopped! EddyP Great King! Disaster! 19:45, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Now Helpjazz has reached level 8, he's ready to be inducted in to their coven where he can learn to cast real spells. -- 20:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * w;cast 'fireball' orc;cast 'fireball' orc;cast 'fireball' orc;get all corpse;w;n;w;open door;w;open mailbox;get all mailbox;read bulletin;/facepalm Nutty Roux (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You have been eaten by a grue. -- 22:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Eurovision
Anybody watching?--BobSpring is sprung! 21:08, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Just tuned in, didn't see any of the acts, only the roundup at the end. The Moldavian group looked awesome. Röstigraben (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Some kind of rock if I remember. Wasn't my favourite. For once the UK was not complete crap which was a surprise.--BobSpring is sprung! 21:18, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No point, because nothing could ever beat this. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * More the presentation that the sound, dressing up as garden gnomes and having an angel on a unicycle running around them. In the late nineties, we used to have a proud but short-lived tradition of sending completely nonsensical acts to the contest. They never won anything, so last year was obviously better, but it used to be more fun. And I don't like Lena's new song. Röstigraben (talk) 21:27, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm drinking for Azerbaijan. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll castrate your feng shui! 21:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The UK is the "wild card", tonight looks like it's going to be carnage. As always. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll devour your dog house! 21:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Go team Jedward! MarcusCicero (talk) 21:47, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * My flatmate voted for jedwardAMassiveGay (talk) 21:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Azerbaijan won. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And I'm fucking hammered already. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll waste your carriage! 22:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm amazed. And Spain was almost wiped out.  Thought they had a chance.--BobSpring is sprung! 22:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Spain? <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll curate your Angel! 23:42, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Can I...
...change "The page "poopsquat" has been added to your watchlist. Future changes to this page and its associated talk page will be listed there, and the page will appear bolded in the list of recent changes to make it easier to pick out." to say:

"The page "peesquirt" has been added to your watchlist. Future changes to this page and its associated talk page will be listed there, and the page will appear bolded in the list of recent changes to make it easier to fuck off."?

Or would that not be a good idea? 05:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Just noticed this being advertised on WND
[http://www.amazon.com/Revolt-2020-Dr-Patrick-Johnston/dp/1609115287/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305079973&sr=8-1 Wow. Really?] -  <font face=times color=black>π    13:01, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol! Pro-lifers killed in a "tragic explosion." Sure, it wasn't pro-lifers behind that. I have a feeling this could be as bad as the Left Behind books. Maybe we can get AD to review for us. -- PsyGremlin  13:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC)"When the President of the United States is among the thousands of pro-choice leaders killed in a tragic explosion at a Reproductive Rights Convention, the government begins a long-anticipated campaign to silence opponents of its agenda." Words fail me. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll google your tomfoolery! 13:14, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I love how other right-wing talking points are thrown in such as "the federal government's plan to disarm Americans and drastically raise taxes", even though they are unrelated to the issue of militant pro-lifer (except maybe the weapons). Weird teabagger fantasy novels. Why can't they just have orks like normal people enjoy? -  <font face=times color=black>π    13:19, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Gripping stuff

"We're completely surrounded! They're trying to blockade the clinic."

"What?" The eighteen-year-old college beauty sitting on the exam table glanced with worry at the only window in the room. "Has this ever happened before?" The sound of the chatter outside grew louder and she pulled her thin hospital gown tighter against her skin..."
 * Jesus, why can't the fundies write for shit? This is as bad as that 2012 movie they put together. -- PsyGremlin  13:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds like the setup for some kind of gangbang porno. -- 14:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I just read the first chapter. It's shitty reading, to be sure, but interestingly, the way it's written, a pro-lifer would feel sympathetic toward the deputy (who's actually breaking the law) and a pro-choicer would feel more for the abortionist with the vaguely Muslim-sounding name and the eeevil fureign accent. Junggai (talk) 14:28, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Brilliant. It reads almost exactly like Atlanta Nights, except that with this one, I've got a lingering feeling that it's supposed to be serious. Röstigraben (talk) 14:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure if we were to pool our collective awesomeness, we could write something that cashes in on the wing-nut paranoia, and make Hundreds!! -- PsyGremlin  16:27, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We have access to wiki, which is the perfect tool for collaborative writing. I'm sure RW fan fiction would be a success. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll rebel your brand! 16:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * and it would probably read better, too. <snorfle!> Totnesmartin (talk) 20:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be awesome - Poe'ing the teabaggers with a collective (gasp!) effort to write the new Atlas Shrugged. I bet a WND-affiliated publishing house doesn't expend too much effort on QC either. Röstigraben (talk) 20:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I just read the Product Description. Holy cow, it's painfully clear from just the blurb they can't write for shit. Not only are preachers hunted down like terrorists, not only are they forced into re-education camps, no! They are even, wait for it, persecuted! In the sequel Mr Johnston's going to put out all the stops and we're going to learn they're also intensely disliked. We know from Clancy and Brown you can sell a lot of books even if your prose is pedestrian but if this guy makes any money I'm eating my copy of Eragon. Mountain Blue (talk) 06:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

First step
I'm sure this will suffer from RW's collective ADD, but I thought I'd make a start: Essay:The Great RW Conservative Novel -- PsyGremlin  09:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I have come up with a birther argument that makes actual legal sense
Still crazy but here you go.

Obama is a citizen because he was born in the US because, from our own article, in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) the Supreme Court Majority found that: It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established. So you are a US citizen if born in the US except under two cases: This second reason is why the children of those Russian spies will not be considered citizens. Their parents were foreign agents hostile to the US.
 * 1) Unless you are the child of foreign diplomats in the country om official business.
 * 2) Or the child of a non-citizen who is hostile to the US.

So where does this leave the birthers? Obviously Obama's father was working will Bill Ayres to overthrow the US government. -  <font face=times color=black>π    05:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Pretty good, but the claims about Ayers come from when he sat on the board of the Woods Fund with Obama in the 1990s, not anything to do with Barack Obama Sr. decades before. Unless I've missed out on some good conspiracy theorizing? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 05:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, they have been chill for years, along with Malcolm X, who is his real dad any way. -  <font face=times color=black>π    05:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if we're going into Malcolm X territory, might as well just declare the long form a forgery. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 05:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It totally is WND has found new evidence. -  <font face=times color=black>π    06:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The way you were starting off there I thought you'd stumbled on one of those odd "we forgot to repeal this bit" laws that would have said Obama was actually an English citizen. Now that would be hilarious. But I don't think you want to point birthers in the direction of Obama being the son of a hostile agent, they're mad enough. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll balkanize your diode! 08:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Why didn't anybody else here know this????
How come nobody else knew that today (May 15th) is International Feliday? I'm shocked and appalled. Just be sure that, if you choose to celebrate, you pet any rusty spotted cats in your vicinity. Thank you. 05:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * International hwat? <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll cuddle your buddy! 08:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * International Feliday! 08:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Goonie, you're a fucking sick bastard, but I love you. ADK, you have no idea?  Yeah, thought so.  08:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh dear God no... <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll program your xanthochroi! 08:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

My coup d'êtat
In the early hours of this morning I appear to have taken control of RationalWiki somehow. Rest assure the transition to democracy shall be swift. In the next day I want a list of people suitable for cratship and voting shall begin for the new biannually elected board of crats. After the crats are in place they shall select new sysops. In the interim I would like to sleep, so I will appoint a few trusted individuals as sysops. -  <font face=times color=black>π    14:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Huzzah! ТyUser_talk:Ty 16:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Joking revolutionary language aside, this really was a coup in every sense - there was no consensus on decratting everyone immediately or biannual elections. People were in the midst of discussing a number of possibilities and it was only by Armondikov and Pi's fiat that these issues now require urgent attention, rather than us having a more reasonable, and admittedly slower, time to address the problems that got everyone so lathered up in the first place. The problems with this are obvious. Nutty Roux (talk) 16:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It was ADK and NX actually, Pi was just handed the crat by Nx... not sure why. Arbitrarily. Pi had no direct hand in any of the tearing down of the wiki. And I would actually say that there were consensus AGAINST taking such rash and immediate "everyone loses cratship". P.S. I kind of agree with NR here, I don't think this solved anything nor made anything better. It was just a cathartic auto-erotic asphyxiation ending like David Caradine... -- 16:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This is what you get with mob rule. Now we don't have mob rule things will improve. But I thought this sort of thing made the wiki more fun? <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll vote your flightdeck! 16:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * More interesting (not necessarily fun), for sure.  16:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's all about the story. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:31, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So when do we use The List of People Who Are First Up Against the Wall When the Revolution Comes? -- PsyGremlin  16:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I was all ready to start down my list, but Maratrean had blocked himself for a week before I even got to him myself... -- 16:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC) Year zero is now. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 16:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I never cease to be amazed at what can happen on RW in eight hours. 18:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Does this mean that from this date we have become Rationalwiki 3.0? DamoHi 20:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wohoo! We're faster then the internet! Wait, how does that work? --ǓḤṂ³ 20:58, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

All things considered
This actually went better than I was expecting. -  <font face=times color=black>π    22:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It honestly couldn't have really gone any worse... unless Trent or Nx decided to go nutso like I did just to prove a point... -- 23:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So, who has been prevented from editing because of this so-called "coup"? No one. Who is in charge after this so-called "coup"? The mob, as always. We could have a 30 page HCM ∞ in the Coop but no, we seem to be going business as usual except with more imminent interest in generating a fit for purpose rights and responsibility structure. It's gone swimmingly. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll assassinate your bazooka! 23:25, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I know you were there for the HCM... just because it wasn't in the chicken coop doesn't mean it wasn't HCM... in fact, it's been the biggest HCM ever. -- 23:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC)Now if we could get back to this important discussion, we might start making progress. 23:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen bigger and longer and more heated ones. The last two have actually been quite productive and free of the usual "go fuck yourself" mentality. Sure they were a bit multi-central, so the "headless chicken" metaphor is kind of right, but HCM is often used to refer to flame wars and, frankly, the last week hasn't been that much of a flame war. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll fumble your plague! 23:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah... so when HCM is working, it's not called HCM anymore, because it's not a bad example, and is actually working and productive. I see. -- 23:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know. In theory it's HCM because it's undirected and all over the place. But it's associated with flame wars and "fuck you" and "fuck you too" and so on. Somehow this doesn't feel as ridiculous as those ones because we are progressing. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll freeze your okra! 00:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a form of semantic drift with a connotative meaning drifting into the denotative meaning. You're so used to HCM being a huge flame war and nothing getting done, that when an HCM comes alone that is productive you're stunned, and taken aback about it. I think most of the reason there wasn't a flame war is because everyone got screwed... -- 00:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. But everyone was screwed and everyone is involved rather than everyone being involved despite the screwing only being between 2 or 3 people. This factor does set it apart. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll soak your igneous protrusion! 00:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly... and despite everyone being engaged and not flaming everyone, it's still HCM. It's just the kind of HCM that actually gets things done... like the random HCMs that happen when the mob is overwhelmingly in favor of one side... -- 00:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Please sysop more people now
If we have a big vandal attack, Nx and the de-sysoping crowd are cleaning up the mess. That is all. steriletalk 16:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The 'crat hat has been passed to Totnesmartin. You will need to bring it up with him. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll confuddle your document! 16:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So fucking what? This is your fault, so you can take some responsibility and clean it up. 16:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There's currently nothing to clean up. The world hasn't imploded. 4Chan hasn't brought the site to its knees. The server hasn't imploded and Conservapedia is still there for people to laugh at. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll derail your possibility! 16:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, not playing along. But I am serious.  Having 12 people with block rights who may or may not be logged in isn't a good idea.  You guys do follow Conservapedia, right?  steriletalk 16:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the crat hat was passed to someone who had logged off, or isn't here right now... mostly because Psygremlin thought it would be cute... -- 16:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Martin of Totnes, I believe. ТyUser_talk:Ty 16:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Where's that face palm thing? steriletalk 16:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 16:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait, i'm the only crat? Totnesmartin (talk) 16:36, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, Psygremlin passed it to you, the current meme is to pass the cratship around and only have one crat at any given time. -- 16:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * shit, just me and Nx. good job I decided to stay in. Ok, so the chances of a mass vandal attack righ now are... what, exactly? Totnesmartin (talk) 16:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Finishing up the vandal bots now, brb. Tmtoulouse (talk) 16:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Goodpost.gif]] -- 16:41, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Fine, whatever, don't care. steriletalk 16:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Point of infomation: Wikipedia has 765 active sysops, about 60 times the dozen that we now have. In all respects Wikipedia is about 1000 times larger than we are and due to its prominent nature is effectively under a constant vandal attack. Is there any evidence that a dozen isn't enough and has left us wide open to an "attack". Fucksake, this isn't the Maginot Line, it's a wiki where plenty of people have a rollback button. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll rebel your salad fork! 16:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that de-sysopping people to make a point was universally the stupidest thing I've ever seen. But that's just my (well-educated) opinion. 16:55, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't the whole "everyone's a sysop" start because someone hated the red exclamation marks, rather than for genuine democratic reasons? Totnesmartin (talk) 16:52, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, pretty much. Also, I only hit the crats and had no intentions of getting the sysops too. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll optimize your brick wall! 16:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Book request
Which online edition of macchiavelli should I read now? Totnesmartin (talk) 16:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Project Gutenberg. ТyUser_talk:Ty 16:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Do us a favor and read "Discourses on Livy" and not "The Prince" as the latter has likely fallen to popular poe. --ǓḤṂ³ 17:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "[H]e who reaches sovereignty by popular favour finds himself alone, and has none around him, or few, who are not prepared to obey him."  nobsdon't bother me 17:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And before I forget it, were is your birth certificate? --ǓḤṂ³ 17:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Why do people ask to be vandal binned?
I don't get it. 17:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Internet masochism? ТyUser_talk:Ty 17:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Making a point. Poorly. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll orate your sacrifice! 17:55, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the MO with them? 18:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Mr 207? It's some random bloke. ignore. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ignorance and boredom.--Colonel Sanders (talk) 18:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Awesome Cartoon
Shared this with a totally cool, down-to-Earth and all around fantastic Christian friend of mine today, and she dug it. Any self-professed Christian who finds it offensive is Doing It Wrong. P-Foster (talk) 03:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There's an old episode of Bless Me Father that I always used to like (well, I liked them all) where the main plot had to do with a dispute with the Anglicans over the literal existence of Hell. In the end, the old Father's comment was along the lines of "Of course I believe in a literal Hell, it is an essential part of orthodox Catholocism.  But only a blind fool would believe there's anybody down there." --Kels (talk) 03:10, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

How many sysops do we need
Currently there are thirteen sysops:

Aboriginal Noise ‎(Sysop) (Created on 4 July 2008 at 16:06) Armondikov ‎(Sysop) (Created on 7 March 2008 at 17:36) Bertran ‎(Sysop) (Created on 31 December 2010 at 15:15) Bob M ‎(Sysop) (Created on 22 May 2007 at 16:11) Cgb07305 ‎(Sysop) (Created on 11 December 2008 at 19:30) EddyP ‎(Sysop) (Created on 10 November 2008 at 19:29) Eira ‎(Sysop) (Created on 11 December 2007 at 01:08) Kels ‎(Sysop) (Created on 22 May 2007 at 03:27) Nx ‎(Bureaucrat, Sysop) (Created on 29 December 2008 at 16:31) Psygremlin ‎(Sysop) (Created on 17 March 2008 at 14:44) Sterile ‎(Sysop) (Created on 24 May 2007 at 21:34) Totnesmartin ‎(Bureaucrat, Sysop) (Created on 23 July 2007 at 08:28) Π ‎(Sysop) (Created on 4 March 2008 at 08:18)

How many do we need? Why? I'm not keen on sysoping people because we like them, or they haven't broken anything for three days. But I think thirteen is a few too few. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Go with a few and increase the numbers if there are problems. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 17:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The set was I believe chosen because they just happened to be active when Pi was handing sysops out. Which is kind of bad news, because that means they're more likely to be in the same timezone/on at the same time. -- 17:04, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking at the list, it looks like a wide array of time zones.  17:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Pi did try to hit as many time zones as possible with it. Check the list of active editors and give it to the top couple of dozen. That way you're sure you're hitting the ones who are on frequently. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll liberate your t-shirt! 17:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Random, but I like it. I shall sysop the top ten n suitable people. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I travel all the time so I really don't have a time zone. Currently I'm west coast US, and within a month to be way western US, Middle East, Western EU, Middle East, Eastern EU then Middle America.  17:13, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * (EC)Not entirely random. If people mostly read/edit from work, or in the evening or at 3am due to insomnia then time zones aren't the most comprehensive way of spreading activity around. The active user list should, on average, be far more representative of who will be around to deal with any problems. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll withstand your mycobacterium! 17:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What's going on? I try to sysop someone, but user rights management says he's already a sysop. It's not the cache, I just cleared it. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Which person? -- 17:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Server is a little behind, I think. SuperJosh was blocking long after Nx took out the sysops too. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll subvocalise your hotel! 17:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

So that's Genghis, ListenerX, Blue, Nebuchadnezzar, Zooguard, Ace and Goonie sysopped. I was conflicted about Superjosh. Should I sysop Superjosh or not? I like him but maybe I need a better reason than "I like him." Totnesmartin (talk) 18:20, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We now have 20 sysops. I think that's enough for now. 18:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Everyone from the Board of Trustees is a sysop except for one. -- 18:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Human? I've had enough of his drunken editing crap. As far as I'm concerned, he shouldn't have any extra powers. If the panel disagree, I'll sysop him. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:31, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I just saw an oversight, and was wondering as to if it were an intentional choice because you don't like him, or if you had a ... you know... rational reason to not sysop him. -- 18:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I made a decision based on recent user behaviour. It had a rational basis but i'm only a human being. What do other people think? Totnesmartin (talk) 19:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Yet another revolution that starts in a bar
Okay, not quite beer hall putsch, (nor am I Godwinning myself), but you could at least wait until the Anniversary Party (at Human's talk), before committing atrocities. 17:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC) C ® ackeЯ
 * But it's the night of the blunt knives. EddyP Great King! Disaster! 18:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I noticed that as well - good to know that RW's irony meters are up and running again. 19:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * you stole my idea. see rww.  nah you don't care.  nvrmind--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 19:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

If I'm supposedly not a sysop anymore...
...why can I still block? Junggai (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ...And just like that, they disappear. Weird. Junggai (talk) 21:17, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey!
Someone stole my sysopness. --Horace (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Me too. I am the sad.  I don't know why though, I never used it.  Senator Harrison (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, nor I. But it was nice just to know that I was all-powerful.  Much like the Christian god.  --Horace (talk) 21:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * HEY! I HAVE TEH POWER AGAIN!  MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...  --Horace (talk) 21:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Absurd
If every sysop can create sysops, the current number will raise again. And why not? We had a couple of hundreds, so some scores won't hurt. And it's not a nice feeling to come here and see that you have been de-sysoped!

BTW, unaware of this discussion, I made some chaps sysop again: my log. 10:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Until we've figured out a new system of what sysops are supposed to do and how they should get their rights, there's nothing wrong with increasing their numbers again. There doesn't seem to be any standard behind it now - I guess whoever happens to be online/active and already used to be a sysop can have their rights returned. Promoting everyone seemed rather easy, so when (or more likely if) we reach a decision on a new policy, this can be undone. Röstigraben (talk) 11:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What's the point of limiting crats if sysops can hand out rights? It's fucking madness.  Lily Inspirate me. 18:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This is only a temporary measure. And sysops can't strip rights, just grant them. 18:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

And the next crat is...
OK I've done my bit, and it's starting to feel like a burden now. Even at the best of times I never know if I'm doing the right thing, and this is not one of those times. Also I'm getting a splitting headache. So, two questions: who do I pass the baton to, and should we have only one baton? please say below if you want the cratship and why you should have it. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it was done overly hastily, if I am given the 'cratship, I will restore all previous bureaucrats. A coup is highly counterproductive. 19:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Give the cratship to me. I promise that all I will do is experiment with my new rights until I'm bored, at which point I shall pass the buck to somebody else.--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 19:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Decrat everyone, then yourself. Tmtoulouse (talk) 20:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * *stares blankly at trent* god damn it trent... :P -- 20:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I think asking people to nominate themselves to be the next crat is a really bad idea. -- 20:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to crat someone by fiat (even though that's how it was given to me). Should I give it to someone who doesn't want it? Refugee? Kels? Totnesmartin (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We really don't need crats, like I said just get rid of any who still have it (Nx, Pi I think) and then yourself. Tmtoulouse (talk) 20:19, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If you give it to someone who doesn't want it, then they might even just wander off, and hold the crat position away from everyone else... I'm telling you it's a bad idea, because there is no good choice. -- 20:20, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * crat me! it'll be fun I promise.--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 20:21, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Fucking. Way. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * but you don't even know me...--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 21:16, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You know what? That's fair. I'm Pignose and this is my brother-in-law Scott. He's visiting from Hoth. <font color="#CC0000" size="3">ADK <font color=#330033>...I'll vitiate your yogurt! 23:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Give it to me because I don't want it. With it even if I spent 27 hours a day on RW I'd never be able to cause as much drama as Human. -- 04:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are no 'crates now. 04:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll do it. I have loads of experience (I was a crat for almost a minute once). <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 08:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The LAST thing I want is to be a crat. I'll probably quit this website.   Senator Harrison (talk) 12:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Let's bullshit about Greece
So Greece is probably screwed due to its inability to repay its debts, and it has a rather long history of debt crises. Germany has said it could help put together another bailout package. Will Greece leave the euro? Is the euro as we know it a dead currency? Will the crisis spread to the rest of the PIIGS if nothing is done? Are we all doomed? Or will nothing happen? And most importantly, does anyone give a shit? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I blame currency. It's a stupid idea.  Instead, everyone who works should be allowed to draw from the pool of resources.  I know, it's not that simple.  But I don't feel like drafting a constitution for a new economy right now.--Foucault5.jpg-brxbrx 21:19, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Greece cannot afford to leave the euro at this point, and the euro is too big to care about Greece. Greece will have a tough time because of its currency, but then they would have screwed up similarly even if they still had the drachma. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 21:20, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't the Euro, it's the widespread culture of tax evasion. They'll have to tackle that first. EddyP Great King! Disaster! 21:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but if they weren't in the euro devaluation could be used to cut into wages and help fix unemployment. --62.142.167.134 (talk) 21:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not an economist but I've long felt the euro was doomed when Greece joined. It always struggled to fit the eurozone's rules on inflation and interest rates. The other countries should expel Greece or adapt the rules to encompass the Greek economic system . Totnesmartin (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, their tax raises were a joke because no one pays taxes anyway. The other problem with the euro, of course, is that your monetary policy is now run by the German bankstahs. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

brxbrx the early Americans thought they could work around this. The USA sprang from the ashes of their failure. All previous attempts to govern the country began with the assumption that taxes were a bad idea and the government shouldn't be empowered to borrow money without security. After a little while the government would run out of money, the people it governed would unsurprisingly refuse to volunteer more gold to keep it running, and it would collapse. So that's why the United States has tax-raising powers, and is permitted to run a deficit, and it worked. Tada! You can see the legacy of this in the current hilarity where it's possible for Congress to agree to buy lots of expensive things, and then, when asked to pay for them all, Republicans can pretend to be shocked at the cost and refuse to authorise the necessary borrowing. No other country does this because it's only useful for political showboating. 82.69.171.94 (talk) 08:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Greece really can't leave the euro. Well, OK, it can - but the solution is worse then the cure.


 * The first problem is that there is presently no legal way to accomplish this. Of course creating laws is what politicians are for, but it would need the reworking of the euro treaty and possibly referendums in some countries. So the legal side could be solved but it would be neither quick nor easy.


 * But then you have the problem that there are no Drachmas any more and that the whole financial system is geared up to work with euros. It took a long time to get the euro in place and make all the necessary adjustments. It would take just as long going back. And it couldn't be done in secret - people notice if you are reworking bank cash machines.


 * Then,and most importantly, there is the question of what would happen to the Greek economy while this torturous process was crawling along.  The whole reason to get out of the euro would be to regain control of interest rate policy and to devalue the currency.  But who would lend to a country with a long term plan to devalue its currency?  More importantly what would happen to any euros which happen to be in Greek banks at the moment?  Would you leave your euros in Greece when you knew the intention was to convert them into drachmas and instantly reduce their value?  There would be an instant flight of captial out of the country.


 * So leaving the euro would generate more chaos then staying in. And staying in is going to create plenty. --BobSpring is sprung! 10:34, 16 May 2011 (UTC)