User talk:Epic Games/Archive1

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--Andrew5 (talk) 13:00, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Re:Saloon Bar
Regarding these revisions. I unfortunately had to revert the post to uphold what I requested as a moderator. No, your questions were perceived to be absolute base level questions which were repeatedly continuously despite other users clearly being a bit annoyed and trying to elaborate. Additionally, I did not accuse you of transphobia, only that you came off as such, that your wording was enough to make some users uncomfortable ("You need to justify your gender since to your gender means something to you unlike me."; "And you're only a dude if you have the body of one which is why surgery exists." is not okay). I suggest devoting more effort looking up online explanations for gender identity before you continue asking questions that are easily answered by looking it up online. 08:03, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You have quote me out of context and misquote me. If you have read what QC333 had said before he said I need to justify my gender before he justify his. I also notice the quick edit of my quote to make me look bad "You need to jusify your gender since to you gender means something to you unlike me" Great job changing you to your. That is very dishonest. Epic Games (talk) 08:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In context to my other quote, if you don't like me saying that a dude is someone who took the surgery, how come surgery exist in the first place? Surely with your logic no one will be ever take surgery since sex and gender are too separate things! Also notice KarmaPolice quote "I would say you're a male because of the contents of your underwear," Epic Games (talk) 08:39, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Also I never had to repeat a question except maybe my first because your answer was such a non answer. Epic Games (talk) 09:27, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That would probably need to be brought up at RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation. --Andrew5 (talk) 00:10, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * All I'm suggesting you do to is hold off these questions and find answers online. As for KarmaPolice, more query is going to be needed but I'm sure they'll elaborate without making others upset. This isn't about KarmaPolice however. 00:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * QC333 did not say you needed to justify your gender before he justifies his. I also did not edit your quote. Do not accuse me of dishonesty. 00:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Check the qupte "Unless you are also offering a full justification of whatever gender you are that does not involve what your body looks like, I'm totally unwilling to justify my gender.". My response was "You need to jusify your gender since to you [not your like you dishonestly said]gender means something to you unlike me".Epic Games (talk) 01:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That's a flubbing of words on your end that I tried to correct but forgot one word. "You need to justify your gender since to you your gender means something to you unlike me". Do not accuse me of dishonesty. 01:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That's a flubbing of words on your end that I tried to correct but forgot one word. "You need to justify your gender since to you your gender means something to you unlike me". Do not accuse me of dishonesty. 01:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

"I have always acted with good manners to everybody here at RationalWiki" - Epic Games. This discussion doesn't support your assertion. 06:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion in gender manufactroversy
Hey I would like to have a a second opinion on accusations on my talkpage where LeftyGreenMario accuses me of transphobia. Please also look at my rebuttal that LGM reverted on the Saloon Bar. Thank you very much. Epic Games (talk) 03:59, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 04:11, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd just ask for a second opinion on this issue, OK? Epic Games (talk) 04:15, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I did not accuse you of transphobia (the collapse talking about transphobic questions came later and not by me). I said your comments were offputting, your questions initially were basic and persistent despite multiple users coming in and explaining you the same concept, and I and multiple users even advised you to continue finding answers to your questions online so you can avoid encounters where people can misinterpret your intentions here due to your poor wording and understanding in the topic. 04:23, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Many people do not want to be questioned about their gendered choices. I won't say you are being nosey, but I will say you seem to be argumentative. The truth as I see it is that most of us just assume a lot about ourselves. What i am, genderwise, is known to me in a series of stories I have told myself. They probably wouldn't mean much to anyone else. Talking to you about them probably won't help you. Some people are sensitive about their personal stories. One shouldn't push them. If you have questions about your own gender then you have joined a very large club. Living with ambiguity is the human condition. If I ask you something and I don't understand the answer, that tells me maybe I'm talking to the wrong person. I don't know if anyone feels uncomfortable about you, except that you might be a troll, that is, disingenuous. You don't need to prove you are not transphobic. You need to recognize when the answer you are looking for will not be forthcoming and move on to some other activity. UncleKrampus (talk) 05:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don’t see any reason for LGM to have cracked down on you as hard as she did. 06:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My first take on Epic Games's take on gender was trollish. I became less sure of that as the discussion went on. Bongolian (talk) 06:05, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure either. 06:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't care about what gender you have. Be a man, woman, non-binary, attack helicopter whatever. What I am confused about is what the heck "gender" is. Its so confusing. I can easily understand what sex (actual physical stuff like chromosomes and genitals) and sexual orientation (who you want to fuck). But not gender. Epic Games (talk) 08:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am sorry if I was a bit pushy with QC333. It wasnt meant to be a personal thing. Epic Games (talk) 08:12, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I also want to know why has called me a transphobia Epic Games (talk) 08:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Just don't say transphobic stuff if you don't wanna be called a transphobe. 12:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Why is this even in the ATIM? I will move it to the saloon bar, if no one disagree. 13:10, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It was told to go here at EpicGames's talk page. --Andrew5 (talk) 13:41, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I wrote a paragraph and a half explaining what gender is. Do you need me to elaborate further? 13:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , I looked over the relevant discussions (as I wasn't a part of them), and I don't see any accusations of transphobia at all. I think the general tone seems to indicate that people were becoming irritated by your questions, because they were essentially the same thing many times. It seems as though the conversation was going nowhere. I don't know who added the little section on sealioning to the top, but that seems entirely appropriate to me. Frankly, just Google it. Friedman (talk) 15:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The person who kept asking questions was sealioning, thus I assumed "generic transphobic questions" would be a reasonable description of the conversation.--A p r i l Chat? 15:59, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * (CW: forced surgeries) If anything, I wish I said "generic transphobic and interphobic questions." Quote, "Why do you oppose surgical procedures for (I)ntersex babies? Do you believe that parents and doctors have the right to do these surgeries if they believe it is in the child's best interest? Also do you believe that baby boys should have parts of their foreskin removed a few days after their born?" This response shows some complicity with intersex genital mutilations, by framing the violation of Intersex human rights as a mere debate whereby benign opinions on the matter are exchanged. I don't trust this individual.--A p r i l Chat? 16:06, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC)I can't be the only one who thinks is not really an ATiM thread/something that does not require moderator review. EG being a blockhead who just asks the same question over and over even when it is answered (I'm not the first person to come to this conclusion)...well that's annoying but it's not a mod issue. I wouldn't agree with calling him a troll based on current evidence, but I don't really think any action toward so far is out of line given that he seems to be bad at constructive debate. Furthermore, I'm not seeing any user "cracking down on him" like we sometimes get in other tense bar threads-no unilateral user rights removal, no absurd unilateral blocks...-Flandres (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * LGM collapsed the user’s comments and accused him of transphobia and making other users “uncomfortable”. Seemed a little heavy handed to me. 17:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, I was the one who collapsed the comments. I don't want LGM thrown under the bus for this action of mine.--A p r i l Chat? 18:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * For clarification, LGM said that they were making users uncomfortable because I reached out to her privately and asked if she could step in because I was uncomfortable. This doesn’t need to be made into a big deal, but I’m glad she stepped in. Quantumgeek333 (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The ideal solution to user discomfort is for the affected user to discontinue interaction, but that is not in the cards here. There is a moderator action implicit in this discussion, and that involves what a user can do after their thread is collapsed. Coming to this page to inquire for alternatives is a reasonable action. has offered to further inform EG, and that should be sufficient. EC should not try to canvass the general population of users in the saloon. Ariel31459 (talk) 19:07, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't ask the same question over and over again. I don't know what your talking about. Epic Games (talk) 01:15, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If you read the question in the SB, all my questions are to elebroate on someone else's answer since many answers were quite vague and lack clarity..Epic Games (talk) 01:23, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think that vagueness is a problem when the term itself is, in practice, used in slightly different ways because the concept is still maturing. If the term is used in different ways, then the best and most honest answer to your question will be vague. Having vague terms is not unusual in science, and you can find a lot of them: the notion of intelligence, the notion of democracy, the notion of carbon footprint, the methodology that is needed to define the best statistical significance, ... The difference is that we usually have been familiarized with these concepts from a longer time, so we can get the idea even if there is no definitive definitions that everyone agrees on. As for gender identity, maybe an approach that can help you get an idea of the concept is the following: scientists have noticed that if you take a human being and toss a coin, and if it's "head" you treat this human as if he is a man and if it's "tail" you treat this human as if she is a woman, then, in about 50% of the cases, this human will experience psychological distress. This just demonstrates that human beings need to feel identified as part of a specific social group, that they don't choose this group, and that there exists a thing in human beings brain that corresponds to this group choice, called "gender identity" by these scientists. Other observations show that gender identity is distinct from the other concepts like "biological sex" or "sexual orientation" (for example, a heterosexual cis-man, a homosexual cis-man and a trans-man can experience the same psychological distress if the society starts to identify them as women). 84.69.48.202 (talk)
 * The notion of Democracy, in a very technical scientific sense, is not vague. It is a rule rooted in the Deimos, which is roughly analogous to a state or province. Basically a geographical bond rather than a familial or clan bond.  15:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure. Maybe this particular example is not correct. It does not invalidate the point, just replace it by another example. (Still, I think that your intervention just proves that this example was not that bad: your definition is not at all the one used in, for example, the big majority of scientific studies which mention "democratic countries". In practice, if someone does not know what "democracy" means and you tell him that, you just failed at explaining. You could add "but the term is also used to refer to ...", but that is exactly what one is expected to do in presence of vague terms) 84.69.48.202 (talk) 16:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Look, it's not my fault if people have watered down a term to simply mean "liberalism". Also, which scientific studies? In which scientific fields? Can I get some examples? 17:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This is exactly my point: it has been "watered down", and that's just a fact, so, giving a definition ignoring this very common usage to someone who will be exposed to this usage is pretty useless to help this person understand. Therefore, a less uselessly pedantic answer to the question "what is the definition" in a constructive debate would include, in the definition of the term, the explanation on the fact that the meaning can be different based on usage, i.e., that the term is "vague". But this is totally outside of the point I was making, and I don't really care if you disagree on the "democracy" example. As for example of scientific studies, this looks like an useless can of worms: google scholar returns 4'060'000 entries when we search the word "democracy", but I'm sure that one can cherry-pick objections to each of those publications individually (such as "using google scholar does not count, it's not real science", "social science is not really a science", "but the word democracy is not relevant here", "but the authors of this study are bad scientist", ...), but again, it misses the point: our goal is to help someone understand, not to act as if those very common (and legitimate) usages don't exist and confuse this person when they will be exposed to these usages.84.69.48.202 (talk) 20:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

nope
'Gender, like race, is made up (social construct) and is thus harmful. Lets defeat gender and break out of sterotypes!!' still havent got it. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:35, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you explain what you haven't got? 😉😄 Epic Games (talk) 09:38, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 'Gender, like race, is made up (social construct) and is thus harmful. Lets defeat gender and break out of sterotypesthat bit' that bit. forget gender for the time being and think about identity. what do identify as? why do identify as what you do? why woould other identify you as this? where you do you feel you 'belong' and why? AMassiveGay (talk) 09:47, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I dont really want to dox myself but do you mean my gender identity? In that case,  I dont really have one. Epic Games (talk) 09:52, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * you do have a gender identity whether you are conscious of it or not. and no i was asking about your gender identity but your identity generally. forget gender for the time being. think about what make you, you. thint about bout who you present that to others and how others may perceive it and why. i dont need to know your specifics, but its what you need to consider. figure out out identity mean before you consider what gender identity means AMassiveGay (talk) 11:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * and a word of advice, it is considered tactless and down right insulting to refer something as central to peoples identity as gender is as something made up or as stereotypes. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Why would someone be offended for saying that gender is a social construct and thus made up?
 * And I am not quite sure what you mean by "identity". I suppose Im what others will call a straight white male though i think those who still consider people in terms of white and black are fools. Epic Games (talk) 23:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you are conflating social construction with creative behavior.. Fiction is "just made up." But if you tell a story about yourself that people don't recognize as a human story, then people may well think your story is just made up, fiction. No one was born knowing what it means to be a human being. We learn that by interaction. That is the kind of social construction that is meant. When you learn about others, it has an effect on your psyche. This is not well understood, so it annoys some people when one pursues the ontology of their behavior. Human social behavior is not entirely rational. When you tell yourself that you can't understand why someone would behave in a certain way, you are verifying their behavior is not completely described by the principles of your own understanding. And there is no reason why you should expect it to do so. You are not alone in this. People surprise me all the time. That doesn't mean others are "just making things up." UncleKrampus (talk) 00:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks UncleKrampus I think thats the best explanation I have recieved so far. Epic Games (talk) 01:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)