Talk:Veganism/Archive2

Trash
This page is complete trash and consists of unchallenged assumptions, emotive language, and a poor understanding of the evidence. Are there no mods with scientific backgrounds checking this crap? As it stands it's not rational and simply perpetuating misinformation and psuedoscience.

Let's start with Omegas.

Calling the DHA/ALA conversion rate 'poor' is a petitio principii: it assumes that we need some higher level of DHA or rate of conversion of ALA to DHA, and finding that the conversion rate is lower than this cites its own premise as proof that conversion from ALA is inadequate. According to the research, Vegans that never eat fish get much better at converting ALA into EPA and DHA, Strict vegans that don't supplement actually get occasional higher values than regular fish eaters (at least 3 fat fish a week).. "Substantial differences in intakes and in sources of n–3 PUFAs existed between the dietary-habit groups, but the differences in status were smaller than expected, possibly because the precursor-product ratio was greater in non-fish-eaters than in fish-eaters, potentially indicating increased estimated conversion of ALA"https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/92/5/1040/4597496

"Several sources of information suggest that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of approximately 1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1-16.7/1. Western diets are deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, and have excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids compared with the diet on which human beings evolved and their genetic patterns were established. Excessive amounts of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) and a very high omega-6/omega-3 ratio, as is found in today's Western diets, promote the pathogenesis of many diseases, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, and inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, whereas increased levels of omega-3 PUFA (a low omega-6/omega-3 ratio) exert suppressive effects. In the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease, a ratio of 4/1 was associated with a 70% decrease in total mortality. A ratio of 2.5/1 reduced rectal cell proliferation in patients with colorectal cancer, whereas a ratio of 4/1 with the same amount of omega-3 PUFA had no effect. The lower omega-6/omega-3 ratio in women with breast cancer was associated with decreased risk. A ratio of 2-3/1 suppressed inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis, and a ratio of 5/1 had a beneficial effect on patients with asthma, whereas a ratio of 10/1 had adverse consequences. These studies indicate that the optimal ratio may vary with the disease under consideration. This is consistent with the fact that chronic diseases are multigenic and multifactorial. Therefore, it is quite possible that the therapeutic dose of omega-3 fatty acids will depend on the degree of severity of disease resulting from the genetic predisposition. A lower ratio of omega-6/omega-3 fatty acids is more desirable in reducing the risk of many of the chronic diseases of high prevalence in Western societies, as well as in the developing countries, that are being exported to the rest of the world."https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12442909
 * It used to at very least be less of a fawning endorsement; more "veganism is valid and can be workable" (which I doubt anyone would deny) than "veganism is universally optimal in every possible way." Then, a vegan came in and edited it into its current state, and was permitted to get away with it because he "had sources." And by "had sources," I mean "cited PCRM members." Xennial Dot Warner (talk) 00:12, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Stop reverting edits User:Smerdis of Tlön
Vegans don't wanna boycott renewable resources, they want to boycott the meat industry. MarioSuperstar77 (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Because the poor widdle animals are dying, and it's so so sad? Fact is, products like fur and leather do indeed fit the definition of 'renewable resources', the vegan substitutes are plastic cooked out of petroleum, and the only reason why anyone would prefer them is that they've developed an inappropriate sentimental attachment to the livestock. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 15:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, morality is just feefees. Blood is green and anyone who objects is just sentimental. We have to stop using plastics to save children - children are renewable, while our precious plastics are not. &mdash; Unsigned, by: 31.11.141.223 / talk
 * Calm the fuck down. 16:04, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

The Bible is an anti-vegan book
The Bible is a strongly anti-vegan book shouldn't this be mentioned?

Genesis 1:26- Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Hmm... Dominion... where have I heard that before?

And again in 1:28- And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Genesis 9:3- Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

“Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you” - clearly anti-vegan. The bible also puts humans above animals for example "ye are of more value than many sparrows" Jonez (talk) 22:45, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I say more broadly it's a very pro-mistreat-animals book as well as how it promotes anti-environmentalism (I do believe it's a motivator for relentless environmental exploitation that plagued the U.S., see what happened to the Great Plains; the Bible also encouraged subjugation of Native Americans which also contributed to destroying their land and slaughtering the buffalo). 22:52, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There is further weirdness in the Bible about vegetarianism. We are told that before the Fall, every animal was a herbivore, even ones like tigers that obviously are not.  "And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so." (Gen. 1:29-30).  And at some point in the future, when the effects of sin have been undone, all of this will be brought back:

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.

They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:6-9. This is the source of the imagery of the Peaceable Kingdom. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:08, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For my part, I'm just waiting for the part where I can casually walk over lions and cobras. I don't get why anyone has aversions to eating meat, if anything organs are much easier to enjoy; except for brain (which, for all the smell when you cook it, is ridiculously bland) they require a lot less seasoning, and they're vastly cheaper than regular meat. Besides, The Big A is almost singlehandedlybresponsible for bringing about modern slaughterhouses, whatever the ancients came up with was certainly never as efficient as just hitting cows/sheep/goats/deer with a nail gun and slitting their throats to bleed out. It's easy to lower the ax or the hammer (I've done it and have no problem doing it again), why bother to pretend other animals have such scruples? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 04:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The brain is a good offal meat. Yes, it's bland, but it has a really good neutral flavor as well as a cream-cheese like texture, which makes it a good dish to season and it'll probably go well with other dishes due to its neutral flavor. It's a good hot pot ingredient, I do recommend it, but it's not exactly available at a Walmart. I don't understand aversion to offal meat, as tissue is just tissue, and the flavors of offal is very diverse, ranging from the beefy melt-in-mouth tendon that mimics the taste of expensive cuts to the rich taste of chitterlings to the velvety texture of tripe to the strong acquired metallic taste of liver. I recommend trying them all. 04:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I am medically warned away from eating most offal; it aggravates my gout. I will make an exception for tripe and chitterlings; I am a sucker for a good pepper pot or menudo.  I also eat pork rinds and cracklims. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 13:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sure brain is good offal, but ever since I learned about prions, I've found myself overly paranoid about that sort of thing. I do enjoy garlic parmesan pork rinds though. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 16:00, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've actually had salt and vinegar pork rinds, which were surprisingly good. Menudo is excellent, though I've also been known to add chitterlings to my Susquehanna turkeys (it's a Pennsylvania Dutch-style stuffed hog maw). And, of course, I'll get haggis when I can, even though American haggis is a bit more liver heavy since you can't use lung here. Try to keep to eating that sort of thing a few times a year, but it's sure good when I do have it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 16:03, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

B12 food myth
The article contains this line "For other foods such as Marmite you would need to eat far more than the usual serving to meet your daily requirements. Nutritional yeast, a common flavoring used in vegan cooking, does not naturally contain B12 although it is often fortified with the vitamin".

The first line is not sourced and it is false. The second line is true but it leaves out the fact that fortified nutritional yeast is a good source of B12.

Fortified foods like non-dairy milks, vitamin drinks, cereals, spreads, marmite, yeast extract and nutritional yeast flakes available in a vegan diet that are fortified with B12 improves the absorption of the vitamin because it is not bound to protein. As this website notes "In most cases this form of fortified vegan-friendly B12 is not bound to protein, therefore it has a greater bio-availability (increased and easier rate of absorption through the gut lining), unlike animal based versions which rely more on the efficiency of digestive enzymes and hydrochloric acid in the stomach to break it down to a smaller component, allowing it to pass into the blood stream." Depending on the size of serving, easily consuming two or three servings a day will provide adequate vitamin B12. You can do this with fortified drinks and food.

The absorption of B12 from fortified foods is also better than taking most B12 supplements and it is more digestible. Vitamin B12 deficiency was only a problem for vegans amongst the early days before the vitamin was discovered and understood. Modern research shows us that vegans are not deficient in B12. You can easily eat fortified foods and meet the recommended requirements. Ton (talk) 18:08, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The first line is mainly wrong because Marmite, like many yeast products, is fortified. Being primarily yeast extract it would have none on its own. As far as bioavailability is concerned, my understanding is that one should seem favor real actual foods if possible, even if it's possible that certain elements of fortified vitamins perform better... foods contain multiple chemicals beyond a simple vitamin after all. That's not to say there is any real issue for a vegan here, though, because eating fortified foods is way, way better than nothing, especially if the rest of your diet is sensibly non-processed and the like. And as far as I know B12 is the only real critical vitamin where there isn't a good plant-based alternative. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:14, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The article claims that Vitamin B12 cannot be obtained without fortification, which is true - most responsible vegan organisations say this, but you do hear some kooky natural-eating type vegans claim you don't need supplements or fortification (this article criticises them). For Marmite specifically that's a bit confusing and could be changed to say unfortified yeast extract. As for nutritional yeast, some but not all is fortified with B12 - products labelled "organic" typically aren't fortified - so it's important to highlight that eating nooch will not necessarily provide B12. --Annanoon (talk) 10:25, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The RationalWiki article doesn't talk about iron but studies have found that most vegans are not actually deficient in iron but do generally have lower levels. There is a useful article here which doesnt mention veganism but does cover which plant foods have iron. Vegans have to eat more iron than omnivores because heme-iron is only consumed in animal products and the type of iron found in plants (non-heme iron) is not as well absorbed but vitamin c increases the absorption rate and most vegans eat a lot of vitamin c foods. Fortified breakfast cereals contain the most amount of iron. 7499 (talk) 04:14, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

How to win an argument: abuse mod powers
Tired of being proven wrong? Make it impossible! &mdash; Unsigned, by: 31.11.141.223 / talk Requesting thread archival (why?) Plutocow (talk)

B12 and hair loss
Is there any data on this? Slappenkopf (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2021 (UTC)