RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive25

Biologos
Found via PZ's blog: Biologos.org. A Templeton Foundation funded site attempting to blur the distinction between Science & religion. QUOTE: "What is the proper relationship between science and religion? Science and religion are sometimes thought to offer entirely separate bodies of knowledge. However, science is not the only source of factual statements, and religion does reach beyond the realm of values and morals." Anyone for bollocks? Oh but they don't like the "2nd law of thermodynamics forbids evolution" crap. (just stumblin' around) 14:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh! Reading further in the site makes aSK look tame! 14:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * From Q24 on the improbability of life,; "no entirely plausible hypothesis for the spontaneous origin of life has been found...." though it does go on to say "Though an explanation for the origin of life is currently elusive, this does not mean divine intervention is the only possible explanation.". So IMHO, it doesn't seem to bad at first glance. The tone and style definitely looks like they want to actually be constructive, it's not smacking of a religious adgenda that I can see (in the first few things that I've read, at least). 14:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It gives a good impersonation of unbias, but I have the feeling, from reading most of the "Questions" that it more or less "damns with faint praise". That is: it repeatedly says (paraphrase) "It could be thus, but it's much more likely that so ...", where so is the Goddidit version. It's sneaky! 20:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's only an impersonation - because they are only talking about one religion and its issues with science (from what my quick Schlafly-skimming showed me, anyway). 20:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Schlafly Doo and RANT!
Well, I've written a third Schlafly Doo story here, and I have a sockpuppeter revealed at the end with the suggestion from Aboriginal Noise :). After I wrote it I was looking at the FBI Incident, and it's just incredible the arrogance of Andrew Schlafly; his head is so far up his arse I'm amazed he can still breathe. He turns completely innocent and sometimes (but rarely) complimentary and helpful comments around on people with condescending smarmy remarks and fucking pathetic little chuckles as he says "oh, you're a liberal, gnahaha, BLOCKED!" It's actual so very obvious he was private schooled because he's so high on his pedestal that all he knows what to do is spit and piss on everyone below him. If he went to a public school, he'd get the shit kicked out of him and his head stuffed down a toilet in the first day. He's just literally a terrible man, and I hope I never have the misfortune to associate with someone as pathetic as he is in the real world. Guess what Andy, I'm a liberal. SO FUCKING WHAT? He can call us liberal and atheist and terrorist or whatever he wants but it doesn't change the fact that he is so SO pathetic. You don't need to be a conservative to be a good person, you need to have some common courtesy for others, something Shitface Schlafly will never have. I'm sorry for the explicit nature of this, and it may seem somewhat hypocritical of me after this rant to lecture Andy on courtesy, but he totally started this. I'm courteous to people who show the same respect to me. Andrew Layton Schlafly shows respect to no one.

Rant over, thanks guys. 20:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It hit me today
Today I was looking through headlines and suddenly I understood the genius behind the California SC decision the other day...... By upholding Prop. 8 but refusing to invalidate the marriages, the SC pretty much guaranteed Federal involvment. In short, they're really forcing this issue to a national debate.... I think they're decision was the right one for sure and I think that this will make for an interested ride. 09:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that's exactly true, because it can't be appealed any higher. SCOTUS has no authority; the buck stopped at the California Supreme Court, who are the final arbiters of what constitutes either a "revision" or "amendment" to their constitution.  While undoubtedly it will remain a national issue, to my knowledge the matter is settled in California until another amendment is passed by the people.  Luckily, that's not very hard.--Tom Moore fiat justitia ruat coelum 10:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * But the issue can now be taken to Federal court, which is exactly what happened yesterday.... Although GLADD and a few others are terrified of that happening. The issue can be taken from California because now unmarried Gay couples can go to Federal Court under equal protection.  10:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What happened yesterday? Maybe I missed the story; I thought Smelt v US had been pending on the SCOTUS docket for a while, and that they had refused to hear any other DOMA cases.--Tom Moore fiat justitia ruat coelum 11:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think what will bring this all to a head nationwide will be a case like Loving v. Virginia, where a legal couple from one state get shafted in another state. However, if the couple "win" at a lower level, it won't go federal.  States do that sometimes (give up on a case) so their laws won't hit federal appellate courts or the SCOTUS.  Although, Chuck has a very good point above.  20:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay... this is the federal lawsuit I was discussing. 07:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Green Hell
Needs the RationalWiki treatment, big time. Side by side, possibly. -- 15:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't exactly do side by side articles on long books which need to be typed in, character by character. 17:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We would only use excerpts. -- 17:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It also depends on someone wasting their dosh on the book. Totnesmartin 18:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a fairly standard right-wing "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" talking point. Arthur, surely you can find an active blogger or something pushing the same tripe?  19:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Whence "Arthur"? 20:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's easier to type than "centipede". Also, every time I think "centipede", I also think "giant Brazilian aquatic...", and drift off into an amiable state of confused delirium. 20:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's Arthropleura. Get it right, okay? Or no drinks next time. -- 21:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * But your sig says Arthropleurus... I'm so confused... Also, you should've learned with your last username that noone likes long and hard to type/remember stuff. --  Nx / talk 21:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I spelled it wrong. Have a problem with that? And Arthropleura isn't hard to type or remember. -- 21:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is it still Arthropleurus then? Also, I remember having to fix your userpage because it was clogging the php errorlog with DPL errors while I was trying to find a more important problem because you forgot to fix it there. --  Nx / talk 21:51, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't bothered to change my preferences. Oh, and I'd like to point out that I don't even know what a DPL error is, much less know how to fix one. -- 22:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It usually looks like this, and like someone said on your talkpage (too lazy to look it up), the problem was you not updating your username there --  Nx / talk 22:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I can do better. He's the author's blog . We gots new clogs, people! -- 20:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

This just in
Got this today from America's Finest News Source. Who can they possibly mean? Totnesmartin 17:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure, but the quote "We'll die before we recognize what we secretly know to be true!" reminds me of our favvvvvvvvourite intolerant moron! 18:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, the only thing missing was a link to CP. Although, it rings of any kind of religious loony argumentifying against science...  19:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Lancashire worries
I almost sprayed my Shiraz when I heard this repeated on the Radio 4 News Quiz. 19:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC) We are aware of the occasional tensions between North and South Yorkshire, but clearly this was a slip of the tongue.
 * I love the sense of humor in that part of the world. Corry 19:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Slow news day
This could almost be an Onion article. Its so vapid and deviod of any "news worthy" material. How many people involved, what were their salaries? How many late meetings and rushes to the print desk with this hot new centre piece of exclusive reporting. And why did they think it was needed to post 11 photos of the event? end short rant. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 23:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Operation Violince.
Mission Objective: Recover friend's violin from behind enemy lines Theater of operations: Nearest high school

Enemy: Hired security guards, police officers

Known obstacles: Luckily, we've done some reconnaissance missions over the last 3 years. The violin is held locked in a storage room in a building known as K building, the fine arts building. This building is many stories high and is locked at all times during summer to protect from theft and vandalism, except for when the janitor enter for maintenance. We do not want to mess around in K building when the janitor is there, so we found an alternate point of entry: the roof. There is a wall near K building that allows only a short jump to get to a lower roofed area of the building, leading up towards near the top of the building where there is a hatch to enter a large maintenance closet within K building. To get from the upper stories of the cooling ducts and meaningless dark 'hallways' down to the lowest stories is a matter of deft navigation that we are confident is within our capabilities. The violin is behind one of two locked doors on the bottom floor, one door leading to the Orchestra classroom and the other leading to a small closet called the Orchestra Storage room. Insider tips from orchestra members have told us that both doors can be opened by simultaneously applying pressure to the door and jiggling the lock. Once we have retrieved the violin, we suspect that the doors to the outside are locked from the inside only and it will be smooth sailing allowing that we avoid police officers. Approaching K building will be the hardest part of the operation, as there really are police officers there who are quite keen on handing out trespassing citations.

Iff all goes as planned, I will be horribly screeching on my newly acquired fiddle before midnight tonight.

Result of operation: Temporarily postponed, probably need grappling hook. 22:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Umm, you do know, (don't cha), that this website does not advocate, condone nor encourage acts that are illegal or violint. CЯacke ® 00:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yah, and besides that, you should get Ace to help you. None of that silly cloak-and-dagger stuff, just get the cops drunk, blow up one side of the building, and voila, viola!  01:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, get a summer job to pay for a violin? Sterile 02:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Summer job? Way less fun. I wish I had Ace to help, but alas. Also, we need to allocate grappling hooks in order to get from the first to third level of the roof. We can probably get some soon, but my friend who used to have some recently commit suicide by jumping off a cliff. That's gotta be the most manly way possible to remove yourself from the gene pool. The operation is getting more difficult. Might have to wait 'til school starts up in August. 02:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You said OPERATION! 03:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Screw "grappling hook", you need dynamite. That Nobel Prize guy invented it for a reason, you know! (PS, all disclaimers apply)  04:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You Americans and your wacky summer breaks. In Britain it's from the end of July to the beginning of September. Why don't you calmly explain the situation to the police officers and tell them you need to get your violin? OR you could get Dog the Bounty Hunter on the case!! He'd bear mace those officers in a second and give that violin a good talkin' to on the way to your house! 10:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Dog's brother tried to pressure my boyfriend to sell him alcohol after hours (he works at a Circle K) against the law. True story.  Also, summer break here in Canada is late June to start of September for high schools, while universities and colleges let out in late April usually. Although my college has started having Winter-Summer terms for some courses, alternating with the traditional Fall-Winter, to use the year more efficiently. --Kels 10:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Summer break? What the fuck is that?!? (Sorry, I'm just feeling the old coming on). And no, dynamite is not the answer. Thermite, however... 10:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It occurred to me that I should explain: this isn't an ordinary violin, it is a 5000 dollar violin. It hurts me that such an exquisite instrument is not being used. My friend who owns it is primarily a bassist and part-time cellist and she left it at school on accident. I'm thinking about just hunting down someone on the school grounds and asking when the janitor will be around (the janitor has the keys to unlock the doors).

As a side note, a lot of schools (like mine) in the US have long summer breaks and short fall/winter/spring breaks, while some have equally long breaks all year long. How does it work in Canada/Britain? 02:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Has your friend...I dunno, this might be a weird idea...actually tried to contact people involved in the school administration? Most schools, the administrators don't take the whole summer off. --Kels 02:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, a worthwhile idea. I kinda figured that the administrators take the summer off because there are never any cars in the parking lots when I run there to run on the track before running back to my house to do more running. I'll try contacting the school via email and see if anyone is ever around besides maintenance people, or if someone could send the maintenance people an email or something. 02:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably preferable to breaking in, albeit slower. There should be some way of getting in contact with someone. --Kels 02:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

What kind of violin is it? There are some I'd be willing to break and enter for, and some that even at $5,000 sound like apple crates with strings. 15:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC) ps oh, and if you are going to break and enter, make sure to get it on video so we can laugh at you later.
 * Sadly I don't even know. It looks like my friend's just gonna call the school though. The reasonable thing to do, but way less fun. ):

First, this is a felony. Don't do it. Second, you're a dope for talking about committing a felony on the internet. 16:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If it's a felony, nobody ever gets charged for it. The police must not care much. When my friend got on the roof of an elementary school around here the cops saw him but just told him and his friends to get down and leave. It was no big deal, people do it a lot. And running from the police isn't exactly difficult at night time. No police call for backup just because some kids are at school after hours. I appreciate your concern, but the FBI's not gonna show up and hand me an arrest warrant for talking about retrieving a violin from the school I attend. And yes, I probably am a dope, but life's short. :) 02:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Khrushchev, Stalin and Schlafly
I don't know how familiar any of you are with 20th century political/dictatorship history, but I'm keenly interested in it myself ('splains my Russian Revolution articles). Nikita Khrushchev (this is Communist Russia we're talkin' here) made a famous speech at the XX Communist Party Congress in 1956, three years after Stalin's death, in which he denounced Stalin, his violent collectivisation, cult of personality, abuse of power, and supposed deviation from Marxism. Basically, I was reading the speech earlier (here it is if any of you give a shit) and found this quote by Khrushchev most interesting;

"Stalin acted not through persuasion, explanation and patient cooperation with people, but by imposing his concepts and demanding absolute submission to his opinion."

Anyhoo, I just found it interesting how it reminded me so much of a certain person I'm somewhat familiar with in the cyberworld... 18:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Who, me? 20:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he means Arthur, actually. --Kels 21:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Human, you. Your blatant abuses of power have not gone unnoticed! 17:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Summer Reading List
I am compiling my summer reading list and would like to include a book on evolutionary theory. I have what I would consider a good basic grasp of the subject, and understand basic biochemistry and genetics, but would like more information on evidence and experimentation. Basically I would like something akin to 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution from TalkOrigins that I can take to the can. Any recommendations? Corry 03:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bully For Brontosaurus by Stephen Jay Gould. Or anything by him.  Very good science popular writer.  Also, The first four minutes, lots of fun about the big bangie thing.  04:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm currently wading through Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale. 07:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was looking for an obscure tome in my library (which I discovered is not sorted alphabetically!) and came across a lovely little SJG book. He's a far better writer on science than the terribly polarized (by YECIDiots) Dawkins.  I treble my recommendation.   08:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ray's Books
Nice. My copies of Ray Comfort's propoganda arrived last week while I was on holiday. They're at work at the moment, but I'll take a photo later. If it pleases the bench, I volunteer to read as much of one of them as I can before being violently sick, and posting a narrative here. What do you think? Crundy 15:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So half the introduction, then? --Kels 15:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I started an article, if you have a few minutes do stop by, pick a question, tell us which combination of the Three things Ray Comfort knowsTM the answer is drawn from and write some other general snark. This would be much appreciated. -- 19:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can lead an atheist to evidence, but you can't make him think 19:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Needs a better intro
Here, we have an article with great content after the intro, but no one will ever read the good stuff because the intro is awful. So, if someone could make the intro a bit better, and generally smooth it out a bit, that would be very kind. -- 19:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And please discuss before deleting something off it. -- 19:18, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I deleted the lame intro and the first header. Now it has a good introduction. By the way, what's "great" about the content?  19:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly that CUR wrote it, and blowing his own trumpet his his raison d'etre? -- 19:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it's first class, but in my book, anything that's on mission and cohesive is great. -- 19:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, at least he has a "reason". Thanks,  19:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should have many articles on animals like this. Sure, we can explain evolution and how each species has adapted to it's environment, but they can say godditit so much easier. BTW, CUR, if you do another cat-article, do it on the jaguar. --Nate River 03:07, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't encourage him. Also, that's not a cat, it's a car.  Typo?  03:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The jaguar is a large cat native to Central/South America. Granted, if he did do a joke article that describes the feline like a car, it would be ok in my book--Nate River 04:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the Jaguar is a large car native to Central/South England. Maybe we should write it, as he lacks the skills to be funny.  Anyway, he's busy working on hairballbot, or something like that.  05:07, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Funny or Sad ?
from Youtube comments on MephalimFree quote Galileo was a creationist. Heliocentricity is disproven by time-lapse star photography. endquote Hamster 21:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * thats Ken's youtube lackey eh? Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 21:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * he has some interesting views on stuff like magma Hamster 22:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Annotated Bible
I don't know if this goes here, but do we really need all these "annotated bible" articles, when there are no annotations? I understand ones like Genesis, where there's really good glorious bits to make fun of, but it looks like we are building them for each bible book? -- 16:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Those are used by the bible tag extension (the annotations are not though) --  Nx / talk 16:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The link provided by the bible tag extension will go to the verse in the annotated Bible where annotation will be shown.  16:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking fo which, are we doing similar things to a Quran soon? They have this for a while already I think.  And the book of Mormons too.  Here is the University of Southern California translation of the Qu'ran and the official copy of the Book of Mormon.   16:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody has added more than a handful to the bible yet and most people on this site know it better, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Baby step. 01:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Emergency request
So now running three days in a row my apartment has had a 30 second power outage/brown out. I think some new occupants next door are wrecking havoc on the fuses. Anyway, RW needs a UBS power back up system. I can not afford it. We need $150-$200, if anyway has some spare change please consider sending it our way. tmtoulouse 04:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1)You should intercom this message. 2) It's UPS not UBS, isn't it? 3)Cil your neighbors 4)I have no money, sorry - read the news lately?  I sell shit no one actually "needs".  04:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The one thing I haven't grasped about the recession is where all the money went. 07:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1)Probably, 2)Bah, semantics whatever, 3) I hate my neighbors 4) No one should give if they can't afford it, never want anyone to give what they can't afford. My only concern is I will be away for a large part of June/July and if this continues it could be a major problem. tmtoulouse 05:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you tried upper-decking their toilet? Corry 05:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Or any number of retributions we could recommend? Seriously, if your co-tenants are fucking with our server's access to the internet, and/or electrocity, do they realize what a visit from Ace McWicked could do to their lives?  08:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Will donate money when not at work. Can donate evil retribution ideas now, however.   15:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I've added it to the Chalkboard. Feel free to rephrase if what I've said is inaccurate or the request for funds is too brusque. 09:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

What kind of UPS would be adequate for your needs? I don't know enough about them to be able to pick one out, but if enough of us are looking for one something might just end up at your lab address in the post. 16:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This one looks great if you're getting intermittent brownouts but will be out of town to monitor whether power completely fails. 17:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I am after a system that supports 120 minutes, which covers the longest outage that I have had in my 3 years hear. There are several good systems I can pick up locally. I realize I should clarify that the $150-$200 is in "Canadian" dollars so our goal is a little less in US dollars, and even less in euros or pounds, significantly more yen, and a whole hell of a lot of pesos. tmtoulouse 18:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 13.14 Elbonian pebbles-or-whatever-you-lot-make-do-with on its way. Totnesmartin 06:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Antichrist = homosexual?
A newspaper in Ms Palin's state thinks so anyhow. Reminds me of Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius. 23:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If god hated sodomy so much, why did she make it so much fun? 02:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Pharyngulated a few days ago. Corry 06:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup! That's where I found it. 15:07, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If god hated sodomy so much, why did those angels from Genesis who eventually got cornered by Lot want to stay up all night on the streets of Sodom fucking their brains out at the public orgy? 14:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Whenever I hear (read, really. I don't hang out with anybody that goes on about "sodomites") about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah I think about an old Saturday Night Live skit about the Sodom Tourism Board.  They're trying to come up with a slogan to attract tourists and one of the ideas is "You'd have to be crazy to live in Sodom.  Crazy about Sodom!"
 * So yeah, the gay antichrist thing is pure win. The comments are pretty much all negative (I think even before Pharyngulation) and they shut down after a couple hundred.  I tried to ask the guy if he eats shrimp, has stoned any of his children, or has given away all of his money and possessions but it they pinched off comments before I read the miserable rant.  Corry 15:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, that article's pretty badly written. It reads like something Ken wrote with about 3/4 of the copyediting necessary to make it English done.  18:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, it's not just a "paper in Palin's state" - "Ron Hamman is pastor for Independent Baptist Church of Wasilla." It's not her church, but it's her hometown...  18:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

A whole vein of stupidity...
I don't need to say anything. 03:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I nominate it to the next AOTW (or just queue it!) 12:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Mulder-Osiris is enveloped by the eye, where he becomes Scully-Isis's child Horus." Corry 15:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * But for AOTW you'd need an article here refuting it, and a couple of good rebuttal sites to link as well. Really a site like this, which seems to have torn a page out of every book in the occult section, is beyond serious analysis. Great ride, though. Totnesmartin 19:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Aw, it does look like a good AotW to me :( - as long as we have articles we can link to here on the subjects they rant about we'd be ok.  But we don't usually do entire clogsites - is there perhaps one hilarious page there that would be a good choice?  20:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Templates at the top of articles
I have been doing something that our old style of template stacking on top of certain articles such as the use of template:bullshit, template:pseudoscience, and template:cover detracts from the aesthetic appeal and readability of the page. Does anyone else feel this way? I would propose trimming back or redesigning these various templates. tmtoulouse 06:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely. As a first step, we should create a new category for them and cat them all so that we can find them. We could make them wide and stackable like wikipedia, but personally I'd like to do something more creative than just copying wikipedia. --  Nx / talk 07:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A variant on userboxtop/bottom? Suggest rather on right hand side rather than centred like wp: I find it very distracting, having to scroll down past 'em. All would need making the same width of course. 08:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought of putting them on the right hand side, but that would break formatting for pictures and various right hand navbars. I've put a few of my ideas here btw --  Nx / talk 08:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Tee hee; How about: ''<div style = "width:20%;position:fixed; padding:10px;bottom:10px;right:10px;border ... ? 08:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, but then we wouldn't have the insights on the first screen of viewing ;) --  Nx / talk 08:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes we would! position fixed = relative to screen, not page! (see here) 08:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, you're right, didn't notice that. I don't know about that, it could be distracting, plus if it's fixed, it's taking away screen space all the time, you can't scroll past it --  Nx / talk 08:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Toast Twitter in Android.png --  Nx / talk 09:01, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I transparentised it to 60%. 09:08, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Your point made. Though I don't care for your sanboxed versions: don't seem very "Ratwiki" to me. 09:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Define "Ratwiki" --  Nx / talk 09:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Pertaining to wikis about rats. 12:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I think banner templates are OK if you only use one per page rather than stacking them up. Use "pseudoscience" or "bullshit", not both because they're basically saying the same thing. "Pseudoscience" & "pseudosciencenav" together is another redundant combination I see quite a lot. Using lots of templates causes clutter at the beginning of articles - moving some to the side wouldn't really resolve it; I think it's just better to use as few templates per page as possible. 09:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wot he said. 09:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * IMHO even one takes up too much space. --  Nx / talk 09:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a look at: Astrology (I've a liking for collapsing) 11:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do we even need "warnings", it's fairly obvious that it's going to be BS and pulled apart in the article. That said, I quite like what Nx has. It might look okay to have those open up from one line to a longer explanation of what they are/mean. E.g., the cover story one would open up to say when it became a cover story or some other info. 12:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The wanderers may need guidance (especially for the entry points), that's the point of the boxes. Can it be made into top left or top center by the way? (top right are for CP/WP/fun boxes, iirc, so unique location helps to make it stand out)   12:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Top right interferes least with formatting the rest of the page & leaves the obvious place (top left) for the subject of the article. I prefer the brash colours of the existing boxes to the monochrome of Nx's - that's what Ratwiki is. 13:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I am thinking the box occupies the top (spans from left to right, like a thicker line of sort) but with less vertical space occupied (the height of the box currently stands would look fine) so it's obvious (warning labels are supposed to be obvious, right?); and expanding it would not change the text shape of the article when expanded.  16:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Changes done on Astrology. Revert if the it look worse.   17:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have done - not because it looks "worse" but because I think the other looks "better" [[image:Evilgrin0046.gif]] 17:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) Simply hiding them with javascript is not a solution, it's sweeping the problem under the carpet. And if someone doesn't have javascript enabled, it reverts to being ugly with an added line above (in yet another brash color). Now, take Template:Cover for example: the articles it's placed on are the best we have, yet we plop a big, colorful box on top of them that draws attention away from the actual content (the stuff that's good). That was my reasoning for making it smaller and less colorful. --  Nx / talk  17:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the banner Nx has on his sandbox, like this:

 • pseudoscience • extreme wingnuttery


 * &mdash; Unsigned, by: Arthropleura / talk / contribs
 * Did you have to stick all that here, Arthur? There's links to his sandbocks above. 19:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

While I "like" the collapsible treatment of the two boxes at astrology, I also don't see the point of either of those boxes being there at all. I lean with the people who think we simply shouldn't use them - they add nothing, and perhaps subtract a bit. 19:03, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was going to make a plea for the Peudoscience one, but there's the nav box as teh Weasel mentioned above. 19:07, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the cover story thingy at the top right corner, Nx. Also I think the collapsable is for more or less with the stuff not on the side panel.  (As in if the side panel has Pseudoscience on it, maybe the Pseudoscience banner IMHO is a bit redundant.)  I think the Bullshit one is fine though.   01:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I come in the name of Jesus, bitch!
This gentleman kind of puts your average Sunday fire-and-brimstone preacher in the shade. DogP Marmite Patrol 22:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC]]
 * this is pretty funny Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 22:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Google as a religion?
I found it here in the process of my WP userbox adventures. Anyone find it interesting enough to look further into it? 22:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I never knew Google was female. 15:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Poker
You guys all seem to be a nice bunch of level-headed alcoholic nutjobs with addictive personalities, and so I presume more than a few of you are into texas holdem? If so then I have some nice server software so if I may, I'd like to propose a free monthly RationalWiki poker tournament with the results posted here. What do you say? Crundy 23:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That could be fun indeed. I've never actually played THE, but I've a regular viewer of Poker After Dark on NBC.  Only problem is I can only make good decisions if I get to see all the hands as a result of this.  00:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Include me. I love playing but, unlike Lady Gaga, I don't have a poker face so always lose in RL, but I have played online a couple of times & broken even. (It's legal over here, folks) 10:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, for now wish me luck. I'm just starting a 10 seat SNG. Crundy 22:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, Jinxy-poos.
Jinx and Comfort, sitting in a tree. Maybe Ray and Kirk ought to have on their little radio show, he could use his mighty Christian powah of telling everyone to go fuck themselves. -- 23:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * He's a leading authority on penis-bone stuffed bums. --Kels 00:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Some beautiful comments. Suck 'em up, Jinxy. 10:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

GIMP, the digital art program
I downloaded it and can't seem to actually do anything with it except for make black squiggles. Herefore, there shall be an Arthropleura's law of teh arts:

It is nearly impossible to teach oneself digital art.

Unless... most of what I've seen appears to be restructuring a picture so that it looks like a painting. -- 00:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Taking a look at the documentation, it looks like GIMP isn't really that fantastic a drawing/painting program, although it's quite good for manipulating images once you've got them. If you want something for free that's pretty lightweight and is more suited to creating from scratch, maybe look into Open Canvas 1.1, it's fully free and networkable.  Later versions are neither.  There are lots of tutorials about that'll help you work it.  Are you using a tablet or a mouse?  Drawing with a mouse is about as easy as writing a letter with a bar of soap, and I don't really recommend it. --Kels 00:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, in addition to the above, almost anyone in the field will tell you that it's better to learn how to draw first before you get too much into digital art. Digital is a powerful tool, but it can really distract you from learning basics like form, line and value.  Start out on paper, read your Loomis, learn gesture drawing, sketch from life whenever possible.  Then when you've got the basics, start to move on to digital.  It'll be WAY easier on you that way. --Kels 00:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I almost always sketch from imagination... is that why my projects come out "funny looking"? 00:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Only if you don't know proportion, gesture and form. If you do have a firm grasp of, say, how the human body is put together and how it moves, then it's a relatively simple matter to construct those forms in your head.  Otherwise, you often end up guessing.  That's why life drawing and reference are critical to serious artists. --Kels 01:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm good with laying pipe and electrocity and stuff. Currently redesigning my bedroom/laundry/walk-in closet.  Oh, is this off-topic?  03:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you looking for some kind of 2D sketching program? Or are you going for 3D photorealistic modeling? The diffrence is the same as that between a grain of sand and a planet. If you are going for the latter, I reccommend AutoCAD.  If my information is correct, then most high schools should teach a class in it.   03:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I object to the smears against the GIMP. (But, of course, I am too cheap actually to buy any software, so take that with a grain of salt...) 04:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In reply to Darth, if you want 3D Modeling, Maya is the obvious choice (screw 3D Studios Max). 04:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: Gimp. If memory serves, you have to download the "Help" files separately for Windoze? So Arthur might need to do that. (& don't seek instant gratification, there's a steep learning curve). I must admit I prefer P'shop, but it's too expensive by far. Is there Blender for Win? (That's got an even steeper curve, but is fun) 10:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to use Lightwave, it's a much cheaper alternative (the student price is something likes less than $200) and comes in a complete package with the best built-in rendering engine (as opposed to Max and Maya which are best if you invest in Maxwell or Renderman separately). And it is perfectly possible to teach yourself digital art! You just need the time and patience to get to know the tools, when it comes to digital media, the only difference between someone just starting and a pro is the time it takes to get the effect you want. 11:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thing about Photoshop and Gimp, neither were designed to be drawing programs. They're image manipulation programs, so while you've got all those nice brushes on PS, it's still a bit of a kludge.  You really want to draw in 2D (I assume you do, if you went with GIMP), you get something like Sketchbook Pro or something similar.  For painting, Painter 11 is really nice, and while Open Canvas isn't the gold standard or anything, it's a good start.  --Kels 11:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As Kels et al said implied above: 1) If you can't draw on paper, you're unlikely to be any better on screen; 2) get a tablet & pen; 3) use a drawing prog not an image manipulation prog.  11:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More than that, if you don't know how to draw on paper, drawing on screen is likely to hinder your progress more than anything. --Kels 11:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless you go with vector graphics like Illustrator. That often works out easier using a mouse and screen over using a tablet. In fact, using some of the spline tools in Photoshop and stroking them with particular patterns can produce better results for making hair, for example, than with hand drawing them. And vector graphics also overcomes (albiet only slightly as having hand-drawn images to trace over helps a lot) any limitations of "if you can't draw on paper..." as they're a somewhat different style to use and more easily correctable. 11:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmm, I'd still say you're missing out on a lot if you don't learn to draw first, before jumping into digital. Even with vector, it helps a lot to know something about form, line, contrast, proportion and motion.  If you can learn to draw hair on paper, you learn how hair works.  You learn to communicate the weight and form of it, how it moves and falls, without gimmicks.  If you jump into vector without learning that, then you're just doing surface.  It might look pretty enough, but you're left with no structure, and that can lead a new artist to skip those necessary steps. --Kels 11:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * But there's nothing that says you can't learn that while learning digital rather than traditional. It's just another medium to use. If you have a tablet and photoshop, you can essentially do line drawings, as you can with vector graphics. 3D certainly doesn't require you to be even competent with a pencil first (the best CG artists I know wouldn't know what to do with a piece of paper). Learning anatomy for figure drawing and basic perspective -which are just tools for making a realistic image rather than just an image- does not require you to start with pen and paper first. 14:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I never once said you can't learn digital art first. I said you'd be better off if you started by learning to draw without the distractions that are part and parcel of what can be in fact a rather advanced tool.  What is interesting is the place I've heard the "start on paper" advice most strenuously has been from very talented CG artists. --Kels 15:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Learning to draw
Right, I think that I'll actually try to learn to draw first. -- 16:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you need recommendations for resources and such, drop by my talk page, I'll fix you up with links and whatever help I can. I'm always for more people drawing. --Kels 19:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My advice is to drop the GIMP and grab a pencil, like Kels said. 19:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I gotta say though, GIMP is great for dealing with photos and manipulating images, so long as you're willing to learn the methods. A lot more "under the hood"-esque than PS. --Kels 19:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How is Photoshop better than the GIMP for "creating" drawings? 20:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm not fond of either, since it's hard to get a nice clean line out of Photoshop. However, there are a lot nicer brushes available for PS without having to create your own, and tonnes of custom ones around on the net.  For straight drawing, I'd say Sketchbook Pro is way better, and Painter 11 is pretty sweet when it comes to more traditional-looking digital art.  Open Canvas 1.1 is fun because you can network it and have online drawing parties, and I'm told later versions are great for colouring linework. --Kels 21:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Not really, I can't draw at all, but I'm still good at AutoCAD. I can draft, bt that's completly diffrent. And no, Maya is terrible- I much prefer CAD. 66.240.60.131 16:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Totally off any topic:
(it's cleaning day) So I've a poll. Do you vacuum once a week? Do you dust? (me, never...) -- 00:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My policy used to be to move every three years. Now I've owned my own building for 18-odd years, well.... spiderwebs add to the character, really.  Had a triple-decker on the light by the toilet for a few years... My idea of cleaning is haul a bunch of crap that I hauled home years ago to the dump.  I do, however, own a nice vacuum cleaner.  But I have no "program" on which to run it.  "Sometimes"?  04:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Quentin Crisp used to say that after four years the dust doesn't get any thicker. Totnesmartin 06:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * When desperate or having friends over for a party (making the tidy/clean state a very short lived one). 11:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Dust? Every time Good Friday falls on a Tuesday. Vacuum? Whenever the floor becomes more stuff than carpet. 11:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The more important question is how to get coffee stains off the rug. Sterile 20:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

RationalWiki by the numbers


Just an fyi. tmtoulouse 04:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This site is doing something rapidly! 04:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mostly racking up Trent's broadband bills. Only space for 2GB more to get perfect geometric growth. 05:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This site is gaining information through random mutations rapidly? -- 08:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Gentlemen at an irrational website, Rest assured, Operation Rentboys and Flying Fortresses is gathering steam!!! Please do not be disappointed if a internet atheist/agnostic revival does not ensue. Crundy 11:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Twilight Rant
The only proof I ever need of the increasing stupidity of the American people is the ridiculous love for the Twilight Series... Can someone explain the appeal? The characters are flat, the plot is mundane, the romance scenes are some of the most contrived in history and the pacing is beyond horrible... Why are people going crazy over this? Honestly... At least Harry Potter had some originality to it; this crap is just old rehash of better works that came before it. For those of you who haven't had the joy of sampling these books, my explanation is this: imagine getting stabbed in the eyes for a drafting pencil and feeling as if you’ve dropped 100 IQ points. 09:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Luckily I've managed to avoid anything to do with the whole Twilight NBT (although I have felt like you described after reading CP). Anyway, the last good vampire film was "Shadow of the Vampire" with Willem Dafoe. However, this is just for you. --PsyGremlinWhut? 09:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I hadn't heard of these books (not American enough?) but I can't understand adults reading books meant for children. I wouldn't even subject kids to Harry Potter, those books are fucking terrible. If these twilight books are worse, they really must be something special. -- 09:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a Harry Potter fan at all, but some spinoffs look interesting. 13:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Witchcraft and fornication all in one package, clearly toys designed to send kids directly to hell. It may be my dirty mind, but I was expecting actual deliberate vibrators when I clicked the link. Rule 34, you know. -- 13:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, HP got 34'ed by the fans a loooooong time ago. In spades.  Although this does remind me of the "Cock Ring Ken" flap some years back. --Kels 13:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I read the first one. It conforms to a genre I describe as 'Soft-porn for teenage girls.' RagTop Gone sailing 09:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Except it's really not, it's completely tame... I wanna know who sits around and says "You know what I wanna read? Mormon sex scenes"  09:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Chuck, you just provided me with my new all time favorite quote. "For those of you who haven't had the joy of sampling these books, my explanation is this: imagine getting stabbed in the eyes for a drafting pencil and feeling as if you’ve dropped 100 IQ points."  09:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This one time, a 15 year old dead bloody annoying emo boy came into the cinema where I work (yeah, work in a cinema part-time) and was talking in his gay little voice about how awesome the Twilight Movie was that came out earlier on this year. Then he asked me if I thought it was brilliant and my response was literally: "Actually, I think Twilight is the worst piece of shit ever made." The look on his little face! "Ohhhhh, my God, I can NOT believe you just said that!" HA! 10:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it probably reads better than Tolkein... 11:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I go to school with a bunch of teenagers (18-20, mostly, some outliers like me) and I haven't heard one of them say Twilight was good. A couple like the first well enough but agree it's not great stuff overall, but all agree that after the first, it turned to total crap.  And apparently even the author wasn't all that into the series after the first book anyhow.  All agree the sparkling vampires and baseball playing was the STUPIDEST SHIT EVER, though. --Kels 11:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, my wife reads the series and is in love with them. When pressed on why she likes them, she says cause the main charecter is hot. Now, I can understand sitting through a two hour movie if a major hottie is on the screen, but devoting 20-30 hours to read books, where you have to imagine what the charecter looks like, just cause he's hot? Seriously now. 14:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Without wishing to go too far without knowing what I'm talking about, in very broad brush terms women tend to prefer written porn, men pictorial porn. Quite frankly I prefer written porn because the pictures are better. Hey, Zero, maybe in your wife's mind the hero looks like you! Silver Sloth 14:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Entirely possible, but she's all hot for the movies too, so it's 50/50.  14:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See, HP I get (especially the first one. after that, man does that woman need an editor), because it was a totally new way of looking at mundane things.  Pictures that walked out of their frames?  Stairs that moved.  But twilight?  First of all, I have, in my life, worked with older teens, and they are TEENAGERS.  name me one 100 year old person who would want to hang out with a whiny teen who thinks the sun rises and sets on teh color of her nails or how many friends she has on Facebook?  seriously... twinkling vamps???????  I'm all for a hot vamp bite, and the sexual allure there in.  But twinkling ones??--97.118.104.55 15:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

So are we actually going to have an article where we can moan about it or not? You do realize that some people ended up seriously injured because they didn't like the books (people attacked them). -- 16:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone allowing themselves to be injured by a Twillight fan pretty much deserved it.  16:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One person was attacked with their sister's practice ninja stars. I think a few people were even put in the hospital. -- 16:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This person would have been injured by those people one way or another; some people are just like that. Twillight had no more to do with it than The Matrix did with the Columbine shootings.   16:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm hiding from my sister--Nate River 17:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My brother's hiding from me! 19:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, first off, I'm so glad that I'm not the only person who can't stand these damn things. The worst part is, nobody has ever given a good reason.  For example, I loved the Harry Potter series, even though some of the books needed some serious rewrites (2,4,5,6, and 7 come to mind) but I still understood that they were not classic literature, they were not Tale of Two Cities, or Count of Monte Cristo or even Sherlock Holmes.  But they were a fun way to spend some time.  Until about Book 5, the books were really original and interesting.  But these Twilight fans are just swept away bu crap.  I recomend they all read Angela's Ashes since they love crap so much.  19:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * On an only semi-related note, I've always hated Tale of Two Cities. In my opinion one of the worst "great" books ever written, almost hated more for how much it has been overrated as for the terrible writing.  But we can all agree we hate Twillight!   19:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, I thought The Old Man and the Sea was another one of those overrated classics. But I went to school in Canada, and we go stuck with Death on the Ice and Who Has Seen the Wind, which were also "classic" and boring as hell.  On the other hand, we studied Robertson Davies, which kinda made up for it. --Kels 19:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I toss in my vote for Red Badge Of Courage? tmtoulouse 19:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

What the hell is Twilight? tmtoulouse 19:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A terrible series of books written to capitalize on horny teenage girls who can't have sex. They involve sparkling vampires who don't die in sunlight.   19:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay thanks, every time I stick my head out of my pop culture proof bubbled existence and take a look around I realize I am not missing much. tmtoulouse 19:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Twilight was written by a Mormon housewife. I'll let you imagine the love scenes and other themes of the books (the whole series basically tells girls not to be curious or take risks.  It also tells them that they need a strong male to take care of them).  As for bad classics, I like Tale of Two Cities, and I didn't hate Red Badge of Courage, but I would like to throw in To Kill a Mockingbird and Grapes of Wrath.  20:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The highly annoying consequence of all this is that I'm actuality going to have to read one of the bloody things in order to have an opinion. Thank you RW.--Bobbing up 20:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll save you the three hours; here's, like, the whole book: Oh, I love you, even though I just met you, but I can't love you, you're a vampire, but I'd die for you, but you're a vampire.  Even though I just met you and we never talked.  That's.  About.  It.   20:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Gotta love xkcd  23:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Side note
The, apparent, favorite book of my senior class is Twilight. I almost ripped that page out of my yearbook. Yorick 21:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

This is not normal!
Has the drop-down box beneath the search engine always been there and I've just been too to notice? 16:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, that's new, I enabled it because of HotCat (otherwise it can't check if the category you type in actually exists) --  Nx / talk 17:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, right. Tcha. You computer types and your wacky computer talk. 11010110001. 17:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Update on our quest for back up power
Thanks to everyone who has pitched us some cash over the last few days. We are only $50-$60 shy of what we need. A few more donations and I will head out and grab it maybe even today. I am getting ready to start my traveling season heading to various conferences around the world, as well as my bi-annual trip "home" so I will be gone for sometimes weeks on end, which is why I am pushing this. tmtoulouse 19:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wish I could help you, but I've been more than a month since school ended and still no work for the summer. I'll be getting by on credit cards until I manage to pick something up, which isn't exactly optimal. --Kels 19:20, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries, I never want anyone to send in money they can't afford to send. I would prefer to not have to ask for money at all, but the glamorous wealth filled life I was promised as a graduate student just hasn't materialized. tmtoulouse 19:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lacking in creative revenge proposals, I have sent money instead (I hope that's okay).  19:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The Cycle of Science News.
Moved to Debate:Philosophy of science

A simple question
I feel like an idiot for not knowing, but do all of the laws of the observable universe go under the heading 'Physics'? Are biochemistry or cognitive psychology or any other field that has observable effects part of the 'physics' domain? What do we call the sum of all of the laws of the universe, known and unknown, besides 'the laws of the universe'? Just wondering, because I just realized that I have no idea and this seems to be a pretty large gap in my vocabulary.

Oh, and I can't resist... To err is human; Toulouse is French. ;) 06:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Natural law" is often used. 06:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 42. Corry 07:23, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Allow xkcd to illuminate. 12:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, if mathematicians count, then philosophers are on top. Then again neither can deduce much from the real world without getting out of their offices and do stuff physicists do.
 * On a related note, if Bob has two apples and Alice gives him three apples, would this be a physics issue because it involves real-world concepts, or a mathematics problem because said real-world concepts are trivial? 16:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Botany. 05:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Zymurgy. Totnesmartin 06:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Semantics. the apples could be really, really small. -- CodyH 23:08, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The Killer Must've Been A Liberal Atheist Dressed In Black, Right?
Dr. George Tiller, the Kansas doctor notorious amongst the anti-abortion crowd for performing late-term abortions, was murdered today as he walked into church. It'll be interesting to see how Andy and CP play this one.--WJThomas 16:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Poor man. They'll say it was an act of God for the man being a faithless atheist killing innocent babies who should have the right to vote. 16:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Simple. CP will say: Now that Tiller is dead, he is an atheist, he feigned his worshipping, got killed by divine retribution.  Definitely will burn in hell.   17:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You do know that LGF is already saying exactly that, right? --Kels 22:57, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would the LGF concerned about abortion? or are you thinking the same LGF (Lesbian and Gay Foundation) as I am?   00:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Little Green Racists, actually. --Kels 11:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To quote some other forum I read about this on, "Even the Mob has the decency not to whack people in church!" --Gulik 09:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The cdesign proponentists tip their hand
The Discovery institute is now openly addressing religion with a new website. This particular article specifically states that evolution and Christianity aren't compatible. I thought ID wasn't about religion! I wonder if Luskin will go around and apologize for misleading audiences. Interesting stuff. Corry 01:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice stuff there... 03:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They mis-spelled the name. It should be "Faith a devolution", not "an". --Gulik 09:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Uncensored swearing on Conservapedia!!!
Checkin' out the Moronic Vandalism article on Conservapedia, I noticed how someone had quoted a vandal without blocking out the cursives! Namely, "bullshit", "crap", and "dooshebags."





And here's the link...



19:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This belongs at talk:wigocp, not here thanks. 20:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was gonna put it there, but that'd be the first place any Conservapedians would look, so I put it here in the hope it'd be less likely found out by them. 08:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok, I see now. Thanks for the explanky.  18:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Whoops!
Oh dear. I was just jax0ring to some pr0n with the volume up while teh neighbor was waxing her car, and I forgot I'd opened the windows :\ What are the odds she heard me? Crundy 21:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More likely she just heard the pron, unless you are especially vocal while jaxxing.  21:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Now there's an image that's going to take you a long time to get out of your head :) Crundy 21:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Spare us the intimates, Crundy.  DogP Marmite Patrol 22:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * TMI. WTF you sharing with your neighbors on the intrenets?  Sterile
 * Didn't mean to. The worst part is I had just said hi to her, so she probably thinks I went-a-fapping because I spoke to her :( Crundy 23:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * [[image:Shakinghead.gif]] Changed my mind about playing poker with you. Marked cards?  23:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Marked with what? (Oh no you dit-eeernt) Crundy 00:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is she hot? Maybe it could turn into one of those Stacys Mom situations. That'd be craaazaaaaay. 08:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, plus she's had three kids. There's probably no tread left in the tyres at all now. Crundy 20:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My, you are a lovely person! 21:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What? It's true. It would probably be like throwing a sausage down a corridor. Crundy 21:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been my observation that there is little if any correlation to uphold your concern. 23:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact as most women who have children will be educated in Kegel exercising, they are likely to be more in control of their vagina's condition than those who haven't. Of course, if you've got a teeny sausage it'll never be able to pretend it's a Bratwurst. 23:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not the sound of me keeping me mouf shut: Kegel pulls are good for guys too. If you find yourself falling asleep at the wheel, and it is vital to continue rather than pull over, a good stout clench there will raise your BP enough for a few more seconds of wakefulness. Oh, and by the way, I am shacked up with a grandma, and it rox. Sprocket J Cogswell 00:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Tiller
Ok, stop for a second Human. This is not about Tiller the person or even Tiller the event. This is a basic question: Why are people so against using the proper term for something. This event was not a simple murder, this suspect, assuming he did it, was not angry at Tiller for some wrong done to his person, and he wasn't seeking to gain anything. He murdered Tiller to bring about political change. This is the very basic definition of terrorism. At the risk of sounding like Andy, the dictionary lists Terrorism as "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." This is exactly what was done, yet today I was discussing this with a right wing aquaintance of mine (who I almost slapped cause he gave me that I condemn the murder, but he got what he deserved line) he argued that this wasn't terrorism. I get the same response from my animal rights groups when I point out that PETA flour bombing and throwing blood on anyone wearing fur or leather is also Terrorism. Do people really think that by not calling something what it is that it somehow changes it? 09:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say the Animal Rights Idiocy is more vandalism, but that's just me. --Gulik 10:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's really just the ALF that does the hardcore shit, PeTA just fund them through the back door. But generally, I agree. If we're going to have these "terrorism" laws, they need to start being applied to all terrorists, not just the ones who happen to worship Allah (or speak in an Irish accent, depending on how old you are). 10:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure the definition of the word "terrorism" has to have the intent to use terror to enact political or social change in it somewhere. Terror is an effective force multiplier, a small group can only do so much damage but people can be persuaded to damage (or even improve, there's no reason why terrorism shouldn't be used to promote a worthwhile goal) their own society through fear of the consequences of a failure to act. I'm not a member of any animal rights groups, but I wouldn't call what PETA did with their anti-fur protests terrorism. Do you think anyone was so terrified of PETA as to change their behaviour? Do you even think that was the intent? Rather it was an attempt to use shame to change people's behaviour, a tactic used by any number of charities and religious movements to a greater or lesser extent.


 * Now, the intimidation of abortion doctors may in some circumstances correctly be called terrorism. However, I'm not sure this is one of them. Surely, murder when used as part of terrorism must be part of a larger campaign of intimidation and harassment? Other doctors must feel themselves to also be potential murder victims of the same group or movement. As far as I can tell, this is just the actions of a lone nut. -- 10:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I do think that PeTA's intent 99% of the time is to scare people into changing their behaviour. Exhibit A. 11:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You might be able to say that you're scared that an animal rights activist might throw blood or paint on me, but I think that is on a different terror level than being worried that some crazed anti-abortion nut will shoot you in your church. Let's also remember that this isn't exactly one lone nut.  He is one of a great many more lone nuts.  11:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Talking about scaring people, anyone remember the Super Bowl PETA ad that got cut? I think that was terrorism at it's worst. Seriously, who would want to have half-broccoli, half-human kids running around?
 * But in all seriousness, Tiller's murder is just as SirChuckB stated. The act was an example of home-grown terrorism, planned and executed by an American against an American. And he should receive the punishment he justly deserves, whether it is the death penalty or life imprisonment. Maybe he can share a cell with Dr. David Gunn's killer. -- CodyH 13:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether it was one lone nut or not does not matter for the definition of terrorism. Timothy McVey was one of a couple lone nuts, yet that was considered terrorism.  Tiller was attempting to effect change through violence; that's terrorism.   13:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, though. The guy who shot the recruiters has been charged with terrorism, but the guy who killed Tiller was not.  --Kels 16:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure why this started out as a comment to me (was it something I said last night?) but there has been an ongoing program of terror aimed at abortion providers for decades now. There's a reason that when new clinics are built they don't have windows.  Bombings, death threats, hit lists, and the occasional shooting - and endless talk radio ranting, of course - it has created a climate in whereby the intention is to make doctors think long and hard before getting involved in this aspect of practice. I was disgusted late last night, caught a brief bit of (network?) news - mug shot of the killer, brief word about Tiller, then freaking R. Terry yacking off about "mass murder" - giving hima  free platform to fuel the fire in extremist unstable minds.  18:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Trying to answer all point somewhat quickly. I think what PETA does is 100% terrorism. Now, there is a huge difference between blowing up a marketplace and throwing blood on some pour guy, but it's the same intent: make people so scared they make political or social changes. Now, in the animal rights cause, there are many who completely reject these type of actions, which is why the terrorism campaign didn't really work. In this case, there were only three doctors who provided late term abortions, and now one of them has been murdered in broad daylight with scores of witnesses (although his attacker was such a coward he ran). You can't tell me that this was not designed to scare people out of the industry and keep new people from joining. Now, I think it was Jeeves, but just because this was a single act and not part of a larger cell performing planned acts, it doesn't mean that it doesn't count as terrorism. And to Human, I was just joking because he went around very forcefully arguing against exploiting the Tiller murder (and for the record, I agreed with you). That's the really scary part, a few months ago, DHS had to apologize for their report and now it's happening. Yet, the people who go on the air every day and incite violence and allow hatred to boil have no moral issues with this stuff at all. Everytime something like this happens they trip over themselves to say "Not my fault." 19:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you do not think what happened Sunday was terrorism, then I ask you to listen to Warren Hern's comments about that very thing. He has lived with death threats for 35 year, now.  there are only TWO (well, now one) doctors who performed late term abortions on deformed fetus.  ALL OTHER DOCTORS are too afraid, and make women wait till the baby is naturally born and dies on it's own.  the reason there are ONLY TWO doctors is that the rest have been killed, or have been too scared to stay in the business.  This is terrorism.  it is the attempt to make people frightened to do something particular (like be gay, have an abortion, or visit the middle east).  Like will be provided in a moment. -- 19:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

that is a transcript from a video. if i can find the Camera's video I'll post it. It's worth seeing his anger at the fanatics trying to prevent him from helping women and families in situations none of us want to be in. -- 19:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC) video - By the way, I know doctor hern, have listened to him talk on a variety of issues from overpopulation to the South American health crisis. Sorry to be blunt, but this is terrorism. I'm angry that the President, the Democrats, and every major Church is not out there loudly proclaiming that this kind of violence is uncalled for. I'm furious that people will say the murderer of a Soldier is a terrorist, but not the murderer of a "man who deserved it". I'm furious the left allows the right to talk about "abortion doctors" instead of "Ob-gyn who happen to perform abortions", about "baby killers"; I'm furious the left does not call them on their out right lies (Abortion is more dangerous for the woman than birth; abortion causes breast cancer; many late term abortions are done because a woman is bored, or just doesn't want to be pregnant; Tiller will kill any baby for any reason for 5k, ect.)  I'm furious that women who have been pregnant (whether they kept it or not) are demonized and put in a no-win situation. I have been there. I have made my choice. I am not "proud" that i had to make that choice, but i say here I am not at all ashamed that I have had an abortion. And I support women who must make such horrific decisions as to *kill their own baby*, their *wanted* baby, becuase of their own health or deformities in teh child. That cannot be easy. but do we support the women? No, we just get into political battles of "choice" and "life". RIGHT WING CAN BITE ME. All of you who talk about "murder" of babies are part of this.-- 19:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

It's terrorism by any reasonable definition. Between the screaming mobs outside abortion clinics, the occasional bombing, and this psycho, it's a campaign of terror. It may not be all controlled by one central mastermind, but neither is Al-Qaeda. --Gulik 19:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Al-Qaeda wishes they were as effective terrorists as the anti-abortion crowd are.  20:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

And now, a complete waste of everybody's time
I found this on a leaflet about local mental health services. The entries above and below are CP-relevant too. Who was Richard, anyway? Totnesmartin 18:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A talk group with Kendoll... think he'd just blame Barack HUSSEIN Obama for everything? 18:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He rarely mentions Obama, he is more obsessed with his war against the evolutionists. 23:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * TK's taking the Anger Management class, right?  DogP Marmite Patrol 06:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * he needs to, for sure. Totnesmartin 11:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Wanted pages
Wanted pages is cluttered with red templates, a category in what looks like Dutch, and other weird stuff. What gives? Totnesmartin 18:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * People (or arthropoda) importing code that they don't understand from other wikis.  19:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking of starting a "real" wanted pages article. Kind of like a place I can pull an Ed and say "I'd like to see this covered" when live blog woo ads I hear/see, etc.  With voting, and storage of useful links along the way, I think.  Sometimes it might be someone will know that an item is covered in another article and make a redirect.  But the main thing is it would be a real list of pages we really do want.  What thinkest anyone who cares?  23:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, given that you and I have been in virtual fights about how to handle red-links (i like to delete them, you want stubs made), i think it would be highly useful. Doesn't mean one can't tiptoe through the red-links now and then, but a real "wanted" page would be more useful.  voting, i'd say that's a no go... simply cause it's more "oh, i know something about that, and could write something", rather than "someone must write something cause we all think it needs to be written.  I guess if you put something on the wanted list, some other editor could ask for a justification.  "why do we need tulip?"-- 23:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * EaG, on your first point, I don't think it's that simple, it's more of a judgment call in each case IMO. Anyway, yeah, I see your point about voting, although it would be nice to see "oh, +9 people want to see that done, I'll do some research" or whatever.  It also provides a way for bad ideas to get downplayed rather than, say, deleted.  Although, of course, there'll be a talk page for that sort of drama ;)  00:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I stumble around a lot and find things I think would be worth a look at, but don't have the time or inclination to do it myself (Just dropped on this beautiful guy!). So I think it would be a "Good Thing". 00:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * i just add them to my to do list, and then someone else writes the article. Eventually. Totnesmartin 11:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Wigo WND
It's so shocking and wrong, yet they still show it. I love it when these guys get worked up, it's adorable. 19:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That poster is a riot! The guy in the cowboy outfit is so into his role, too. --Kels 19:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * oh WND, I love you... They used the term "homosex"! Someone should sock up and tell Daniel. Does anyone else absolutely love how the word "gay" appears single quoted 9 out of ten times in article titles?
 * I see the war-obsessed uncle, the whipped father, the dominating woman of a mother, the tease of a teenage daugher, the cowboy-obsessed son, and the loyal yet still whipped dog. If George Bush sr. had a daughter [Though Jeb may fit the role, who knows?], then it'd be the perfect picture of the Bush family at thanksgiving time, with Uncle Cheney over for turkey and war stories. -- CodyH 22:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Somebody tell 🇰🇪. He might want to get the cowboy's phone number. 23:34, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lovely kitchen. Soothing colors. And I like that pretty lady's nice latex dress. What's the big deal? 00:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Look! Some crazy bitch ranting on about Obama! &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 13:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Socialism requires a totalitarian system..." Wait, what? --Kels 13:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Deny that and lose all credibility. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 13:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mad, the lot of 'em... WIGO WND? then? I know it's been brought up before but nothing came of it but since then, ASK was added to the WIGOs and we started steaming towards RW 3.0. In a way, most of it should go in clogosphere, but you get such a constant stream of it, then there's the polls, and the advertisements and just general wierd shit. It can then become another focal point that isn't conservapedia and RW can expand. Not sure if many people check it enough to update it as regularly as the other WIGOs though. 14:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The polls are gold and the advertisements are telling. But I dunno if it's people checking it that will be the problem. They only update content once a day and even still, not a whole lot goes on...the 'new' content is stale as fuck. It's like the 1000th day the homepage has been dominated by birth certificate conspiracy theory. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 15:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

You have nothing to fear
New Zealand worlds most peaceful nation. Fear me. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 21:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you have moved up from 3 to 1 in the last year. What happened Ace, you sobered up a bit? 23:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Narr, he got too drunk to fight. 23:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They've finally overtaken Canada. 10:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They're not very peaceful when they play Rugger. Silver Sloth 11:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Most Peaceful", eh? I guess that beats being known as "that not-quite-Australia place with all those sheep".--WJThomas 21:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Wiki4CAM
Very few serious users actually use it. Therefore, since it is, according to our page, a 'RationalWiki outpost,' I suggest that we use it exclusively to refute the very thing it should be promoting. Any thoughts? (NOTE: This is not the same as vandalism, since vandalism entails someone actually caring.) -- 01:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC) Never mind, bad idea and idea retracted. -- 01:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good move, Arthur. 02:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I thought it meant that now only RationalWikians edit it, in which case editing as we please would make sense. -- 15:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh most learned and wise RWians I beseech your advice
This is episode 17 in the ongoing series titled "Yorick asks for advice on the internets."

We're past the girlfriend thing, so don't worry. In four days I graduate from high school, at that point I need to know what I am doing next year. I did a fair bit of procrastinating in regards to the college question, and ended up only applying to a small private college I dislike and a state school I actually do like. I procrastinated so much that I missed the deadline for scholarships at the state school despite doing very well on the tests. The small private school, on the other hand, actively recruited me and now will provide me with a full ride.

Looking at the events that have recently transpired (ex-gf again sorry) I realized that now is the perfect time to carry out a plan I have had for some time. Travel in an easterly direction around the world. It's perfect. I have no ties to keep me around, I can defer my enrollment at both schools, apply for scholarships for next year, and do something I might never have a chance to do again.

Needless to say, the padres didn't like it. I am "making the biggest mistake ever", I am "throwing my life away", I will "never go back to school", etc... Last night,after the fiftieth fight, I finally managed to convince my mother that I could do it and more importantly should do it now, or at least I thought I had. Today my parents gave me a new offer. I would give my two weeks notice at my place of employment, and leave at the end of the two weeks to travel the world. They would pay for my plane tickets as well as the tickets of a friend (my father works for delta so I could fly free, but they were refusing to give tickets to me) and travel Europe for three months, part of which would be spent with my uncle and grandfather in France. The catch is I would have to register at the small private school I dislike for the coming year. At the end of the three months I could, if I was enjoying myself, take the year off and continue traveling, or return home like a good child and be rewarded with a laptop.

They are tricky though. I had planned to work the whole summer to save up for the trip, so the funds I had intended to leave with are a couple thousand dollars less forcing me to become more reliant on my abilities to find jobs in places where I don't speak the language (every non-english speaking nation).

What do you suggest? College, traveling, summer traveling, where to find beautiful women, the best place to get drunk (excluding Ace's house), jobs, money, religion?

04:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Jobs: they hire off the street for construction in Israel (true). Beautiful women: New Zealand (stay at Ace's, I sure he would let a person he knows off the internet into his house, his girlfriend will love him for it). 04:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you go traveling and (as is quite probable) become derailed from the college track, you will probably regret that later, and if you stay on track and go to college instead of traveling you will probably regret that later as well. Therefore, I suggest that you select the path that will enable you to practice self-pity in perhaps slightly more comfortable surroundings, viz., going to college straightaway. 04:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignore the boring man, go visit the world. You can always go back to college when you are scarred and tattooed and the young ladies will think you are cool. 05:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Traveling is great. You should do it as much as possible in college.  And after college.  Three months is a pretty decent amount of time to go backpacking, and your mind will be in a good place for starting class.  Now if you decide to defer a year, and I'm not saying whether you should or not, MAKE SURE YOU TALK TO THE SCHOOL!  I've seen people take a year off by just not showing up for sophomore year who weren't let back in.  Either way, it's pretty cool of the folks to meet you on common ground.  You should value that.  It's annoying to hear that they're just looking out for you, but it's true.
 * And what's so bad about the private school? Is it run by a televangelist?  Oh, and while it's exciting to legally buy booze in Europe when you can't in the states, don't miss out on the fantastic educational and cultural experience by spending it all drunk in the hostel.  Corry 05:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the school, the problem I have is my interests are so diverse and unfocused that having a large school with a larger variety of classes will probably serve me best. On a lighter note Billings, Montana is one of the least interesting places in Montana (only beaten by Butte). Honestly, I lived there for 10 years and would like to get away preferably to somewhere with mountains and trees. Yorick 05:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

If I may add my two cents. I personally haven't travelled much aside from moving from NZ to Australia. I however have a good friend (are you reading Ace) who has travelled extensively round the world, and who still does occasionally, while finishing his degree. Travel, school will always be there.Rad McCool 05:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Try and do both as much as possible.  Few things in life will educate you, illuminate your world and expand your mind as much as extensive travel.   But, beware, it's very beguiling, and you may never make it back into Normal Land.   Which may or may not be a bad thing.   But you seem like a bright spark, and you ought to know that once you step off the educational treadmill, it can be hard to get your brain in gear for it again when all you can think of is the next perfect beach.   It's a lot easier to do the education thing now, and travel (just a little bit) later.   As a corollary to the above, I'd suggest doing the school thing - the world will always be there.   Personally, I'd suggest going to college, then ensure you spend your summers traveling far and wide for as long as possible.   If you go to the right college, that can be a very long time indeed.   And, you can always take a year out, that's usually not a problem at all.   One last thing - you should ultimately go to a different school, one far, far away from your parents.   Perhaps you can't do that now, since you missed your applications, but you'll need to do this year in school to make yourself eligible for transfers.   Then head to some place thousands of miles away.    That, and travel, will be the strongest formative influences on you for the rest of your life.   DogP Marmite Patrol 06:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Rad is right. Travel man, nothing opens a mans intellect like beseiging ones senses with the colours of the world. School will always be there but being the age where you can travel, drink all night and catch an early morning flight to Mexico City from San Paulo after having an in-depth conversation with a Polish traveling salesman in the airport bar only lasts but so long. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 07:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To address the other side of the scale, there is no point at all wasting your time getting an inferior education. My advice would be if you want a degree, go to a university that is one of the top ten institutions in the country for that particular degree programme or don't go at all. A degree from a podunk university isn't worth the paper it is written on, and certainly isn't worth wasting years of your life on. The only exception to this rule is if you want to be if you want to conduct research, in which case the career path almost certainly starts with a doctoral programme somewhere. However, again getting the best education you possibly can should be the priority. -- 07:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This depends on your chosed field. Some jobs just need a diploma, doesn't even matter too much in what.  Others just want a degree in the field, doesn't matter from where.  The real advantage to going to a top ten school is not necessarily the diploma, but the connections that come with it.   15:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, go travelling, but just don't turn into one of those really fucking irritating people who has to follow up everyone's stories with their own story starting with "When I was travelling in x". Crundy 09:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh no Crundy, thats where you are sorely mistaken. "When I was traveling in x" is perfectly reasonable as long as one change "traveling" to some other verb. Such as "stumbling", "yelling", "prophesizing" or "grifting". Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 09:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Change the noun as well. "When I was ing in ..." 10:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey! You stole my plan! Just kidding, but I'm going to travel Europe for a year after I get out of high school. I still have a year to allocate savings luckily. The plan is to do lots and lots of backpacking and staying in hostels. I think it's the best excuse ever to grow a beard. ...and see the world and stuff I guess. :D All the adults I talk to wistfully reminisce about how they wish they could've traveled the world before being bogged down by responsibility, so it can't be too horrible of an idea. 11:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

You (OP) mention that you are thinking of working when in Europe. I assume that you are from the US so you not be able to legally work in most European countries. That's not to say that it will be impossible to get work, but considering the increases in unemployment that most countries are experiencing it could be tricky. I hate giving advice in case people might actually think that I know what I'm talking about but my two cents: Go for it. Get everything college related in order before you leave and then enjoy the summer/year off seeing the world. If you wait until college is over then anything could happen in the meantime. Kids, marriage, all good but a serious obstacle to spending a year pissing about seeing the world. I have spent much of my adult life living and working in foreign countries which has been great. But most of my friends did the year-off in Australia, South East Asia. I missed my chance to do this and I doubt that I ever will get the chance again because of responsibilities to my family (wife, daughter, job, father with long-term illness). I can always save up for a 3 week vacation to these places but it's just not the same. JoeDuffy 15:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am actual a citizen of the UK and the US so I could get some sort of EU passport. Yorick 02:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd advise coing to college and then traveling the world via boat. That's what I'm going to do. -- 15:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * But then you'd never get to see Switzerland. JoeDuffy 15:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good luck with that one, CUR. I remember my first month out of uni. I had over a thousand quid in negative money, and had to survive on loose change found down the back of the sofa until I got to payday. If you can travel round the world on 30p and a pot noodle, I wish you well. -- 15:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hell, I'm going to try. -- 16:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

If you reckon you can defer entry & apply for scholarships next year at the college you really want to go for, while using the months in between to travel, thengo for it, but make sure you've got the plan worked out for when you need to reapply etc. If you're not sure about a career plan, then travel is always a good option (before college, after college, between jobs, whenever). When you know what you want to do with your life & how to do it, focus on that (but still find some time to travel when you can). 18:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Never, ever...
If you're looking for advice try going to someone whom you axtualy know, (better yet if they axtualy know you too) and ax them. You should never, ever, take advice from people on the internets; from what pimple cream to use to what movies to see...but especially on the BIG IMPORTANT LIFE DECISIONS like ''should I go straight to a college I think I don't like or bum around awhile and get some livin' done? Feel free to disregard this advice as well. Please for to start thinking for/about yourself. CЯacke ® 17:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He's just askin' advice, he doesn't have to follow it, and he doesn't seem ready to base the whole decision on what everyone says. If Yorick's smart enough, he'll be asking he's own family and friends what they think. 18:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm editing here because it's easier. While "going back to school" sounds "simple", it's a lot easier to get it done while you are still a "traditional" student - ie, pretty much fresh out of high school, part of your parents' household, etc.  The deal you're being offered actually sounds pretty good to me - a partly paid-for summer in Europe, followed by laptop and free college, or a one-year delay with all paperwork carefully done so you still get scholarship money.  You may find a small school better to help you focus, someone with lots of interests could get "lost" in a large uni.  But only you will be able to figure that out.  Anyway, my dad said the other day that he thought it was really stupid of me to drop out of college 30 years ago.  I had lousy study habits, got mostly As and Fs... did a fair bit of travel around the US back then on my thumb (starting in Missouri makes that easy).  Took a few courses over the years once back home, at the local Uni., but never knuckled down to snag that coveted baccalaureate.  Now, whether that credential would have any value these many years later after 20 years of self-employment is an unanswerable question, since if I had managed to pull down a BA or BS eons ago, my life might have taken quite a different path anyway.  Closest I have now is my UNH library card ;).  I hope you're also talking to as many IRL people as you can as well as us - that's the smartest thing to be doing, find out as much as you can, get a variety of opinion and advice, and make sure you keep your i's dotted and t's crossed as far as re-entering the "traditional student" model while you figure out what to do.  21:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The fundamental question to ask yourself is "what do I want to do as a living?" and then work 'twards that goal. In the USA of today, that often involves competing against outsourcing for any white collar job that could be done remotely (programmer, medical records, lawyer, architecture, etc...).  To be competitive in that area you will need two things - the know how of the particular field and the ability to work cheaply.  Being able to complete school without any debt from student loans is a huge advantage in the market place - you can work for less than someone who has suddenly found themselves needing to pay off the debt for the next decade.  Short answer: College degree good, no debt very good. --Shagie 21:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I was going to enter the correct advice here, but that wily bastard Human beat me to it. I will add this, though:  College will be significatly more interesting than you're thinking it will be, particularly if you take the time to seek out more than what's spoon-fed to you.  And, if you do well, you can always transfer to a Big University after a couple of years, if RMC proves to be too small.--WJThomas 22:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

@Cracker I have been speaking with everyone I can about this, so don't worry. I asked here because I wanted an outside opinion from world wise individuals. And I did get a lot of feedback, so thank you everyone.

I'll likely travel this summer, but I am going to mull it over until Saturday. I have already call both colleges and they were very understanding and promised me I would still have all my scholarships. Again thank you all. Yorick 02:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Since meworks at a college, I think I'm biased. But studying abroad while at college sounds like the best compromise.  Early on is actually better, as later on you have to take major-level courses, which gets harder and harder to delay.  And most colleges have a career center of sorts, which it sounds like you need.  Sterile 03:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

New Hampshire same-sex marriage
Watching the live-feed from their house of representatives, they just passed the bill. Should make an official announcement soon. 20:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoohoo! Now the govonor?-- 20:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, i just read that the Governor had already signed it, but required some new language? Does anyone have anything on what the language was.  And go NH!-- 21:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sweet! "Gov. John Lynch said he would sign it later in the afternoon." - the "new language" was hammered out already, something about not requiring churches to perform marriages they disapprove of. A meaningless sop to the bigots.  21:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Full text of the bill is here. Mainly just religious protection, only way to get the bill to pass. Governor should be happy enough with it to sign it soon. 21:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Update: official 21:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm, "It also clarified that church-related organizations that serve charitable or educational purposes are exempt from having to provide insurance and other benefits to same sex spouses of employees." Creepy, but I guess most of them are already except from some "fair employment" rules...  21:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep. i think they can ask if you are a believer, can have and uphold "moral" guidelines like not having babies outside of marriage; don't have to have female employees if the bible tells them it's a sin.  Nice, hum?-- 21:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is mostly there to get around the whole freedom of religious practice part of the constitution, they have made gay marriage legal without requiring churches to recognise it, but giving them the option to. Gay people can get married, the fundies have no legal grounds to challenge it as they are not an effected party, nobody loses. 02:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup. Yay New Hampshire!!!   04:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

UFO?
This is kinda fun/spooky. Can't wait to see real scientists give their 10 cents worth. http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=1095451&ch=&cl=13796940&src=ukyvideo -- 21:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Rrriiiggghhht...NASA is simultaneously releasing film showing UFOs while simultaneously covering up the truth about UFOs. Not a well-thought-out conspiracy.--WJThomas 22:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of the dust orbs the ghost people go nuts about. tmtoulouse 22:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Bashing Christopedia into the ground
Nearly done, any other 'contributors' welcome. -- 18:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And I'm not claiming to be from RationalWiki, so if you apolagize for my actions on the behalf of RW it will make things worse. -- 18:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is shameful. What's wrong with you? Blanking pages and making fun of people for their religion? Seriously, what's wrong with you? Don't come back here to brag about your inane behavior elsewhere, Arthur. This isn't cool. At all. 18:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So why doesn't anyone mind Icewedge vandalism? (not criticizing Icewedge, just wondering). -- 19:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Way to not understand group social dynamics. And not only that, you aren't even a particularly effictive troll, either.   19:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, you support Icewedge because you like him? -- 19:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Add basic reading comprehension to your fail list. I'm saying you don't seem to understand the social dynamics of this site, and that you're not a good troll, either.  I said nothing of Icewedge, though for the record I do not support his tactics.   19:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, I've never supported it. I don't support it being done on CP either, for what it's worth.  But what's the story on Christopedia?  I think I'm reading it right as basically a one-man operation that's about to fold, so you're in there to kick its corpse a few times before it's carted off?  --Kels 19:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Less of the noxious waste left, the better. The way I see it, if it's about to fold and become inactive, the least I can do is make sure that it is relatively harmless. -- 19:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To hell with vandalism. Stupid and pointless. Although I'd be lying if I said a smirk doesn't play around my lips when I see certain changes on Conservapedia's page of moronic vandalism. 19:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * CUR, grow the fuck up.  How many times do we have to tell you that running around waving your arms in the air screaming "Look at me, look at me!" is not a great way to be a useful member of any society.   Why else would you rush off to wandalize another site, then return here to tell us about about it?   Do you think this is a really great achievement or something?   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 19:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I think I can't remove all the noxious waste this guy has been spouting without a bit of help. Though if someone would like to change the subject that would be kind.

undent. If you think your strategy on Christopedia is anything other than a minor nuisance to the sysop you're either not very good at this wiki thing or Fall Down got way too deeply under your skin on RWW. Whether or not people approve of wandalism, and whether or not they secretly do it, you're the only person who runs back here to jump up and down for attention about what are ultimately pretty fail attempts at obtaining your stated goal. 19:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Icewedge
Icewedge turned up on CP in about April 2007. Most of his exploits were "interesting" - not easily reverted blankings or whatever. He did things that required thought and effort to repair. Was he "doing good"? Of course not, he was just running rampage over a wiki. On RW1 a lot of us learned how to deal with the various exploits he had developed, which was an interesting experience. By June 07, on RW2, he had dropped wandalism as a hobby and created 2 or 3 extensive articles here (Alaska, [[Evidence against a recent creation, etc.), and gradually drifted away to "live his life", although we still see him from time to time.

In other words, while some of what he did was not the sort of thing we collectively "approve" of, it was at least intellectually stimulating, and usually quite amusing. Then he dropped doing "naughty" things - within a couple months of starting. 20:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Random subject change
Did anyone else watch Night at the Museum yet? It's pretty good. -- 19:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've spent the day playing The Longest Journey and learning to draw the scapula. --Kels 19:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

To the person who apologised
Talkin' to you. From Christopedia's absolute doozy of a '"Negroid" article: In South Africa alone, 30,000 babies are raped every year by Negroes... --Robledo 20:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Negroid article and the Human Subspecies article are making my inner Anthropologist rage on astronomical degrees. You should be able to see the ͡҉҉ ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̿̿̿̚ ҉ ҉҉̡̢̡̢̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑ ͡҉҉ rage manifest ͡҉҉ ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̿̿̿̚ ҉ ҉҉̡̢̡̢̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑ ͡҉҉ itself any momH҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘Ȅ̐̑̒̚̕̚ IS C̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̚̕̚̕̚̕̚̕̚̕̚OMI҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘NG > ͡҉҉ ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̿̿̿̚ ҉ ҉҉̡̢̡̢̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑ ͡҉҉

H҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘Ȅ̐̑̒̚̕̚ IS C̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̚̕̚̕̚̕̚̕̚̕̚OMI҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘NG > ͡҉҉ ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̿̿̿̚ ҉ ҉҉̡̢̡̢̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑ ͡҉҉ He w҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚ho Waits Behind ҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚The Wall. ҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚ ҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̕̚ ͡ ̒̓̔̕̚, Z҉A҉L҉G҉O̚̕̚ ENorman 03:42, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What is all that shit? 03:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's not ask, shall we? -- 16:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

"I'm not claiming to be from RationalWiki"
. . . But you pasted a RationalWiki article there verbatim. Leaving RW's fingerprints all over other sites is an embarrassment. Please undo it. I'll do it myself if I have to, but I'm reluctant to create an account or show my IP at that site when I'd much rather have nothing to do with it. & BTW, "Got Aids Yet" = not funny, not clever, not cool. 20:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Again.....
CUR again? Jeeeeeeee-sus. Lucky I am dosed on valium right now. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 21:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Rant - please disregard if you so wish
My husband's company is one of the single biggest "babysitting" companies in the fricking universe. Company is closing local office; tells employes only 3 days ago that they will either have to commute to the new office or quite. Those who qualify can apply for "remote" status. So, get this... 1) we are only giving 3 days notice in an economy that is not exactly friendly to job hunters 2) due to the state rules, if a company relocates within a certain number of miles, *and* still offers you the job you had, you are not qualified for unemployment - even if you don't have a car or other reasons making commute hard or impossible, and 3) apparently my hubby's ONE TIME, FIVE MINUTE LATE even 4 & 1/2 months ago makes him unqualified for the remote. I HATE how easy it is for companies these days to abuse (if you don't mind the slight exaggeration) their employees like this.-- 19:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry about your husband. Though really, if you look at it from an employer's perspective, an employee can up and quit whenever they want, and the company can't do anything about it; same thing really.  Not that it doesn't totally suck for you, but the system works both ways, you just don't have lobbyists that make laws for you.   21:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Start your own local, friendly babysitting company and steal all their customers in your area. Seriously, do it. I fucking hate companies like that. Your staff are your most valuable asset, if you screw them, expect them to screw you back tenfold. Crundy 21:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Crundy's right, this is a golden opportunity. Make sure to steal/copy your rolodexes.  Get several "ex" employees.  Get a lease on the building they are vacating at a lower rate ;)  22:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Be careful taking customer details, we fired someone who was leaving here for doing that. Do it, but don't get caught! Don't email it to yourself (unless you have a digital certificate and can encrypt it). Store it on an encrypted USB drive or similar. Crundy 09:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure how much of this is tongue in cheek, but really bad idea. There's no better way to earn yourself a civil prosecution than to poach customers from a former employer. -- 13:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again I'm glad that, for all it's myriad faults, I live in the UK and not in the US. Unbridled capitalism is great when you're winning but otherwise... Silver Sloth 13:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At the next company, invite the union in.  After all, that's what they're for.   Unions have become all but forgotten in today's world, and it's exactly this kind of appalling corporate behaviour they were established to challenge.   I can't stand people who have a problem with the idea of unions.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 02:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "There's no better way to earn yourself a civil prosecution than to poach customers from a former employer." I think this is in the US, unless they signed non-compete agreements, this sort of thing is no big deal.  Remember I said to "copy your rolodex" - not pilfer the files.  IOW, it only works if they already know who the customers are.  02:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Silly Mel
Braveheart has threatened to cut funding to his church if it's members don't stop talking about his decision to leave his wife for his mistress.(deep breath)| see here.God, I love it when fundies show us their idea of family values--Nate River 23:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems to be a common theme. People run around and preach values, but don't listen to themselves.-- 23:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Think that's worth linking to from Mel Gibson? Guess not, since we hazn't got artikl...  00:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Which part of "Do as I say, not as I do" do people not understand? Most important religious value, you know.   00:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we have a Mel Gibson article? I'll start off with "Mel Gibson is a complete twat" and people can add anything else that might expand on that. Totnesmartin 17:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was surprised we didn't. You can change the fake red link in my comment above to a real one if you want to use it to launch our "complete twat" article...  19:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Mercan soccer
Sucks. Yorick 02:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

My gOD, 3-0 I could do better on defense. Yorick 03:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, the draw's still rigged in your favour. Btw, are any of you 'orrible lot planning to make the trip down here next year? --PsyGremlinWhut? 10:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * True Mercan's know that soccer is a girls game and, anyway, there aren't enough goals to satisfy the ADHD generation. True football also comes in short chunks to allow for messages from our sponsor. Silver Sloth 13:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't watch your godless, socialist metric football here in the US of A. We'll stick with mustachioed hicks turning left for a couple of hours, thank you very much.  Corry 00:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I was swimming in the Caribbean wondering...
...about the real world. Just out of interest, does anyone talk about RationalWiki to family / friends / spouses and whatnot in the real world? I've mentioned it to one or two people I know, but because I seem to be the only person I know who has heard about Conservapedia, no one else seems to give a shit. Just wondering. 12:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Rule 1: Do Not Talk About Rational Wiki. But seriously, only if the topic of websites that one frequents is brought up, or Conservapedia gets brought up and occaisionaly I post some of the interesting WIGO stuff to Facebook (if that counts as "real world" as some of my student friends seem to think). 15:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've met just one person who's even heard of CP, so I don't bring RW up much. If I want to talk about it I just say "I was on this message board..." Totnesmartin 16:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ironically, the one person I did tell about CP went, "Oh, isn't that run by that Schlafly woman's idiot savant son?" --PsyGremlinWhut? 16:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, my brother knows about because he has a habit of sticking his nose into everything (Hi there! *waits for loud scream*) -- 16:32, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Like Martin I just say "this site I'm on." 16:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * While none of them come here, everyone in my office and my wife all get regular updates about CP because they want to know "What's so damn funny over there?". They got the background brief once each. They (co-workers and wife) are thoroughly convinced that Schlafly is parodist of the highest caliber who's finally acting out his rebellious teenage angst against mommy, but is wise enough to do it covertly so he gets his share of the inheritance. Because he read The Prince, of course. You know, just to teach his World History class. Not like he'd actually BE Machiavellian.The Foxhole Atheist 16:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My sister gets regular updates, meaning her boyfriend also gets regular updates... My parents don't know about Rationalwiki at all. Some of my college friends know about the site after looking over my shoulder and seeing me edit in the middle of class.  18:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just finished writing some committee meeting minutes in the style of a Conservapedia article, so they're all aware of it now. And finding it just as funny. 18:42, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I sometimes mention it in passing, but usually while discussing, say, wikipedia (so it's more an issue of mechanics than content). Also, I might bring it up if the conversation is already about "rationalism" vs. loonies.  So far, every single time I've described what CP is to someone (probably 8 or 10 people), I've had to remind them who Phyllis is, let alone Andy.  It's been a long time since she "mattered" to anyone in the real world...  20:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Submitted with no additional comment

 * I didn't think it was possible to make something lacking this much credibility.  Unless of course it's a Poe, in which case, well done.   But I don't think it is, scarily.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 05:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not Poe as can be seen with the minute-ten seconds of silence at the end to reflect/pray/discuss before moving onto why MOAR guns is always a Good Thing.CЯacke ® 16:47, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In which case, "I didn't think it was possible to make something lacking this much credibility".  Just fantastic.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 04:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Pygmy Jerboa!
Squeeee! -- 13:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC) Damn, now he's cute. cept his knees have been turned backwards. -- 13:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw that last week. I still think it looks like a Muppet. --Kels 14:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Damn. That just overloaded my cuteness circuits. --PsyGremlinWhut? 16:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * THE CUTENESS! THE CUTENESS! (explodes) -- 16:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)



It was an emergency... 21:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it just me, or are they tilting? -- 21:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Gaaah, it's like one of those optical illusions... where does one goat end and the other begin? The squinty rows! 86.170.24.218 21:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just you Cur. Use the top of your screen as a straightedge to check.  22:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I can see it too. It's some kind of optical illusion. And i just agred with CUR... Totnesmartin 08:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Pwned! 19:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh no it's clearly crooked -I am now trying to find a way to bend the menu bar of my browser.  Seems hard.   Will report.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 19:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Assalaamu alaykum.
Oh, no. teh president spoke 'Muslim'. Will the Right survive it?-- 16:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They're probably already messing themselves over it. To them, it's undeniable proof he's a terrorist. To non-morons, it shows he's an open minded man. 16:32, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, Sean Hannity is apparently saying Obama called the US a "Muslim nation", when what he said was "If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world...So there has to be grounds for a better dialogue". Yeah, that's really calling the US a Muslim nation. The Right is truly lost.  great video here. daily kos-- 16:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You are wrong, wrong, wrong, SuperJosh. Only the right wing fundamentalists can be open-minded because they believe the TRUTH. If you believe anything else, you're a close-minded liberal who should just DIE because you can't admit that you are wrong and if you'd just open your mind to the ONE TRUE CONSERVATIVE WAY you'd realize that. They don't teach you that in public school, do they? The Foxhole Atheist 16:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, if you're going to do fake HTML, do it right. It should be . 20:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is only for strict XHTML; is perfectly all right in the good old HTML. 21:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Foxhole Atheist, you're right. Sean Hannity's right; Obama is trying to literally destroy America by making it a Muslim Nation. I'll change from now on. 17:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah well... Assquote impersonation fail for me. The Foxhole Atheist 18:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Has B Hussein O defected yet? 23:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Carry on, Far Right.  All you're doing is making yourself utterly, totally unelectable.   Hey Ken - send Hannity your Hitwin pictures, he can stick them up all over his studio.   That'll help too.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 00:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

My car gets four rods to the hogs head, and thats the way I like it
so for some reason I was watching Hannity interview Limbaugh. It was like watching two Grey African Parrots chirp at each other. No logic and total paranoia. Anyways Limbaugh was talking about Obama taking over the media and, if Obama took over health care and made it nationalised, that all of a sudden the government - the overwhelming liberals, they would be controling our entire lives and intrude and micro-manage our entire beings while dictating the amount of butter we put on our pop-corn, how much salt we used etc etc. It was a very bizarre interview and I believe Hannity messed his pants more than once. After watching this I wandered outside and had a smoke. I checked the mailbox while debriefing myself and found a letter in my name, funnily enough it was placed cunningly in the mailbox where I'd find it. It was from my nationalised heath care provider, the ACC (Accident Compensation Corp.) which says, to wit (as I am reading it now from the letter head). Dear Mr. _________ Your Injury is covered by ACC "We've received your ACC claim following your injury on 23 May 2009. We're sorry to hear of your injury and wish you well in your recovery. Because your injury is covered by ACC, we've already contibuted to the cost of your intial treatment.We did this by paying the health care professional who treated you..." Nationalised Medicine is surely the devils spawn. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 12:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The UK gets lots of stuff advising people on how much salt and how much veg to have a day, but it's just advertising and awareness. I don't think it's as "contolling" as the wing-nuts think it is. And the adverts on units of alcohol are very good and actually useful as people don't know that a large glass of wine is that many. Besides, I think the wingnuts would only be happy if their rich selves go the best treatment while the poorer plebs were left with homeopathy, wishful thinking and hacksawing off hurt limbs Battle of Trafalgar style. 12:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I must say, Ace, your version of socialized medicine is way more personable than mine. Here in Canada, it's just all quietly covered behind the scenes (except for optical and dental, which sucks), no letters in the mail to let us know they've done it, best wishes and so forth.  Kinda wish they would, it's a nice touch. --Kels 12:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is nice. Here in Australia they mail you the check and you have to take it around to the doctor yourself. I have no idea why they can't just mail it to the doctor. 12:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Limbaugh, its the devils magic. But, nonetheless, I sit with a personalised letter, wishing me well, and stating further that -
 * "If you need further treatment we can often contribute towards the cost,"as long as the treatment is for the injury we approved to cover and not for unrelated medical conditions". Which I think is fair enough as I made a single claim and I hate fucks the scam the system and piss with my tax dollars. (emphasis mine this time) Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 13:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please, God, don't let Michael Moore get involved in this. That would result in a 180--Nate River 13:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

(Regarding health awareness advertising) I think an interesting move is the menu labeling laws in NYC. All chains have to prominently display they caloric and fat content of all menu items. Now, you know when you get a Big Mac that it's full of lardass. But I think where it makes a difference is people getting a latte and a scone for breakfast. You don't really think of it as 600 calories and 15 grams of fat (numbers make up). Corry 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Like you Ace, I watched that interview. I don't really know why, but I did - I guess I wanted to hear what the extreme right thought of the Cairo speech or something. Anyway it made me feel ill. What with Hannity declaring the speech "outrageous", "anti-American", "a disgrace", and [dissing] "his own country" and "referred to America as a Muslim nation", that was bad enough. Then Lardass weighs (heavily) in saying "I think Obama is a scared man" and "he's paranoid and there's a lot of back-stabbing", "he can't stand up to the Muslims" and all that shit, i just started to feel really queasy and unwell and I hit the bottle in a mad depression caused by that and my Mum slipping into a probably terminal semi-conscious state. It's not a good time, and I just can't laugh at those utter scumbags. To think that the national discourse in this country has sunk to a level where liars and unsupportive disingenuous hypocritical dangerous motherfuckers like that are on the most popular cable news channel's PRIME-TIME slot really, really horrifies me. <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 18:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, when the Theocracy hits, I'll be setting up shelters in the UK for any American who just can't stand it anymore, you're welcome to come over and stay. :p 21:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Morph Thing


MorphThing.com: So, probably everyone's seen it and done it but it kills the time. And of course, you can do this, which would have anyone at WND coming in their pants immediately. 12:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to pre-empt 🇰🇪, MOAR MORPHED HITWIN! -- 13:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Morphing Andy into Mr Bean is, um...enlightening. Totnesmartin 13:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Best car evar!!!
China welcomes careful drivers Totnesmartin 18:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually own the high class version of the same vehicle, but his is way cooler. -- 18:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny to see a picture of a RationalWikian. I often wonder what we all look like in the real world. 19:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can brave Livejournal there's a picture on my profile, taunting a seagull. Totnesmartin 20:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I just did—that is not the most flattering picture you could've picked, Tottie. : )   04:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very nice Jeeves!  I love those!   I've always wanted to own one of the Italian Ape's - same deal, three wheeler little pickups.   Ape=bee, Vespa=wasp.   Funny.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 19:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That wooden car is awesome. What ingenuity.  The engineering appears to predate the invention of the steering wheel, even. That is a tiller he's holding, right?  19:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's a horizontally mounted tire. Nevertheless, I want one. 20:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of awesome vehicles, I once saw a concept car display in Paris that featured a fire engine with a Hydrogen Cell engine meaning that the vehicle produced the water needed to put out the fire. Was pretty cool. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 05:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Just noticed
We can redirect to Wikipedia. And Conservapedia. -- 23:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't. I've spent the last hour mostly fixing everything you fucked up today.  Did I notice someone blocking the twerp and vandal bin its IP?  Good move...  00:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone who gives a crap, note that the resulting page does not, as intra-wiki redirects do, indicate where you were sent from, with an &redirect=no link in case you want to chase it down. So when young Arthur redirected that pointless taxobox template to WP's, I had manually type .....template:taxobox&action=edit, whine whine whine this after spending an hour repairing the squealing cheetah/Hot l Baltimore fiasco.  01:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh. CUR STILL pissing everybody off?!?! Nice to see some consistency in the world...TheoryOfPractice 08:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you should have seen the Weeping Lion. 11:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, some things are as certain as death & taxes. Anyway, good to see you, ToP.    10:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey hey ToP is back. CUR has been pretty low key as of late, I think the current crisis is settling on how many bars to have. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 11:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can't you not, in principle, redirect anywhere or does #REDIRECT only work on  rather than [ ] links? Not that this is a good idea at all as, as Human said, you can't easily get back to the redirect to edit it. Although did you consider making a temporary redirect to so that the double-redirect clause in Media Wiki will stop it working and you'd land on the right page? Equally faffy, though.  21:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Worth a rebuttal
🇰🇪 has posted this on CP. Is it worth doing? It is very repetitive, but could be good seeing as this was their best 101 arguments. 08:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This should definitely be rebutted. I'll start on a skeleton for a side-by-side. 08:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's a good thing. Some of them are incredibly easy to rebut while others are going to need some research. It's the Gish gallop of creationist articles. -- 09:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks to ken for giving us something to really work on. the range and depth of the arguments means that anyone can join in the pwnage. I foresee sevaeral new articles coming out of this. Olé! Olé! Olé! (which, incidentally, originally meant "by Allah" - well I never knew Ken is a muslim. Totnesmartin 20:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is what I like. Good work, people. (I've been waiting my entire life to say that). -- 21:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, fuck off, CUR. You act as if nothing ever happened on this wiki until today. By the way, you write like an eight-year-old, and cleaning up after you is getting really old, really fast.  04:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * CUR is now basically a concern troll, should we vandal bin him? 04:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A concern troll, by the definition in the article, is only there to disrupt the site. Last time I checked, I'm not. -- 16:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * so why did you get desysopped? Totnesmartin 16:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Because I was a moron on another website. -- 17:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you're a regular troll, unless I've been taken by your false flag op just like everyone else. WP defines a troll as "someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response. ..." Why would you agree you're a drama queen but argue with this definition? Is it because you're a troll?  17:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If that was so, I wouldn't run in the opposite direction the moment someone did make an emotional response, would I? -- 17:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lolwut where do you run to? The refresh button so you can watch shit start falling out of the sky? You really piss me off with this transparent intellectual dishonesty. You get off on running this place into HCM every few months like you need your fix. Admit that and I guarantee people will start seeing you in a different light. Step 1. 17:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

CP
So I checked out Conservapedia for the first time today, and I have a question. How the hell can you guys stand reading that stuff?! My brain started to hurt after a minute or so, and five minutes was beyond my capacity. Seriously, you people must have some kind of superhuman genetic mutation. 15:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Try editing there sometime.  15:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously. It's such a poisonous environment that if you want the simple pleasure of writing a basic article about something that's already been written on WP and isn't appropriate for RW you have to basically invent an entire sock persona, name location, scars, tattoos. TK's a fucking creep. 17:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I actually am a superhero which helps. Although my sock wearing has alot to be desired. How could you only just check out Conservapedia now? I thought you'd already been there given you've been here long enough. 18:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

So I met this guy...
out at a party. Friend of a friend. Seemed like a nice guy.

A few hours later, we're bullshitting and then it starts...

You name the conspiracy, this guy bought it hook, line and sinker. Chemtrails, NASA, Obama, SETI, "Nazi Scientists", zionist Jews, Christian eschatology, the media, the water supply, and on and on and on...

It was funny because everyone began slowly backing out of the situation and I'm sitting there picking the guys brain for two hours. Then I started asking him about his religion. He said he was an Adventist and went on and on and on about it and Jesus and end times...then I asked him what he thought about William Miller, to which he replied "Who?" I lol'ed and recommended that he check out conservapedia. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 17:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice to see that my former attempted brainwashers are still as whacky as ever. Worse, even. Totnesmartin 18:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Sent in all of my boxtops...
To get MY free copies of The Atheist's Bible and You Can Lead an Atheist... from Ray Comfort via the Atheist Central website.

I figure I could give JeevesMkII some help, so he gets done BEFORE Armageddon.

And I need shims for my kids' goldfish tank. The Foxhole Atheist 03:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I intend to help, by "reading" my copy, too. If I can stomach to open them again. Seriously, Ray gives Ken a run for his money.  03:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I swear, if I was a superhero in need of archnemeses, those two asshats would be it. Every time I see Comfort's 'stache and Kenny H's smug-as-shit mug shot, I think to myself, "Self, those two jeebus-whoring jerkwads could use a skullshattering ultrasonic uppercut or two." Oh, to HAVE the great power to use WITHOUT the great responsibility.


 * Yeah, I'm talking to you, Peter Parker... You're next! The Foxhole Atheist 03:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the "Ken" I meant was 🇰🇪 at CP, not Ham. Ray's book is atrociously written and uses weird quotations to open chapters.  20:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It does at least have the blessing of being short. I read it in the bath the day I got it before starting work. Took me perhaps an hour. -- 21:33, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I got my response and they're on their way!


 * <B>Justin,
 * This will be in the mail today.
 * -Mark Spence</B>
 * <i>-Original Message-
 * From: Braman, J[REDACTED] SSG MIL USA FORSCOM [mailto:[REDACTED]]
 * Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:54 AM
 * To: Mark Spence
 * Subject: Free copy of "You can lead an atheist..." and "Atheist's Bible"
 * (UNCLASSIFIED)
 * Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
 * Caveats: FOUO
 * As a soldier who became an atheist through my experiences in Iraq, I would like to kindly request a copy of Mr. Comfort's new book "You can lead an atheist" and the "Atheist's Bible".
 * I appreciate the offer of free material and I hope that these will shed light on my lost faith, whether it justifies my stance or forces me to reconsider.
 * Thank you in advance,
 * SSG J[REDACTED] Braman
 * [REDACTED]
 * Fort Knox, KY 40121
 * Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
 * Caveats: FOUO</i>
 * The Foxhole Atheist 13:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you think it's likely that you'll just reply with "thank you, you have reaffirmed by atheistic belief!" 13:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll have to read it first, to find out, won't I? (Then, after I write my English term paper rebutting it, I'll e-mail a copy of it right back to them with a curt "Thank you for the book but, its flaws A,B,C, ad nauseum..." statement as a preface.) The Foxhole Atheist 13:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems that Google Books has a limited preview of it so you can get a headstart if you like! (ooh, Hitlerium in the THIRD paragraph!!) 14:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fort Knox, KY 40121
 * Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
 * Caveats: FOUO</i>
 * The Foxhole Atheist 13:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you think it's likely that you'll just reply with "thank you, you have reaffirmed by atheistic belief!" 13:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll have to read it first, to find out, won't I? (Then, after I write my English term paper rebutting it, I'll e-mail a copy of it right back to them with a curt "Thank you for the book but, its flaws A,B,C, ad nauseum..." statement as a preface.) The Foxhole Atheist 13:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems that Google Books has a limited preview of it so you can get a headstart if you like! (ooh, Hitlerium in the THIRD paragraph!!) 14:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Have they had more money or don't they want to send overseas?
 * Date:Thu, 28 May 2009 2:32 PM (1 week 3 days ago)
 * Hi Genghis:


 * Thank you for your request, however we have reached out quota for the
 * free books.


 * Kind regards,
 * Anita
 * Assistant to Mark Spence

14:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC) PS @Foxhole - Why did you redact the J**** when it quite clearly gives a name on the first line? 14:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My guess is that the Iraq thing (which is absolutely true) plucked a heart string or two. As for the redactions, it was carelessness. I started out with my address, which I'd prefer to keep private, (unless anyone is interested in stopping by for dinner), then did the work e-Mail (for security obligations), then thought "Well, I guess I don't want anyone to know what my first name is..." so I redacted all of the "ustin T"s, completely forgetting my first name opened the e-mail to begin with. There's a reason I'm against censorship... I suck at it. At least I can maintain an air of mystery while someone struggles to figure out what the "T" stands for. Or something. Whatever. The Foxhole Atheist 17:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Timerlake, surely. 11:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The squealing cheetah
Ah ha, I have discovered the answer to the question of what you get the irritating kiddywink who just won't go away who has everything. Probably NSFW. -- 00:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * * cringe* 00:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That looks like it has an infection of some sort. Also, I "improved" your header.  01:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I preferred the old one--Nate River 01:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to change it back. I actually "thought it up" as a new name for the twerp's "restaurant" on my way out here, just happened to think it also fit the, um, "topic".  01:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

So, you don't offer the 55 gal drum of Astroglide®? Pity. CЯacke ® 20:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, I guess I should add the warning that this is not even remotely safe for work, and will get you some odd looks / fired. Crundy 14:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I would recommend it to friends if it is stainless steel or other metal. Guess I'll wait for one that is. 23:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)