RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive104

Godless Raven
I would like the RationalWiki mob to consider bringing punitive action against (also known as Godless Raven). The charges are as follows:


 * Inability to cooperate.
 * Rules Lawyering.
 * Defending obviously bad-faith edits to mainspace.
 * Edit warring.
 * Attempting to use moderators and the coop to sidestep discussions.

In a related notice, I also am bringing charges against. Specifically, I am raising the following charges against her:


 * Edit warring.
 * Meatpuppeteering.
 * Setting up community members against each other.

I know that most of these will be obvious, but for the sake of full clarity, I will be attempting to explain each case at depth.

Raven
The first charge, inability to cooperate is easily concludable on several of the charges linked forward. At it's simplest however, Raven takes a frequently unneccessarily hostile attitude when it comes to challenging his edits. This can easily be found on the Martin Luther King Jr. page (scroll to homophobia), although many other examples can be found in the rest of the evidence for the other charges. Edit Warring can similarly be found in the content dispute over Martin Luther King Jr. I should point out, and make it clear (as I have stated before, which can be reaffirmed by LGM) that in many cases, Raven and EK are not directly breaking our Guidelines on Edit Warring.

Rather, they use a strategy that prevents either of them from breaking this guideline (which I will detail in EKs charges). It can be found in the many disputes that Raven has produced, although most notably in the Anarchism content dispute, as well as individual edit warring in the Tucker Carlson content dispute.

Defense of obviously bad-faith edits can be found in the Capitalism content dispute. Should be obvious, as the section at dispute (linked is a reverted diff of this content, the removed material is what was warred in) is a clear bad faith edit.

Attempting to use the moderators and the coop to sidestep discussions and Rules Lawyering are closely connected. Trying to get moderators to take action instead of attempts at a discussion can most notably can be found in the currently ongoing Moderator Noticeboard dispute. Furthermore, this has happened in Archive 22 of the Moderator Noticeboard, and in Archive 102 of the Chicken Coop where Raven tried to use the mob to get GC banned over a content dispute.

EK
EKs charges are mostly tied to Raven. Her edit warring can be found in several of the content disputes, although once again only in tandem with Raven. Specifically, the two use a strategy that relies on conversation in the RationalWiki Support Chat Guild. For full clarity to anyone who is not in that guild, the Support Chat has a channel in which Raven is locked into called #ravens-nest. This channel on it's own was created due to Raven causing half the members of that guild to leave once he joined due to their desire to not interact with him. This is not a part of the charges (as this is an off-wiki incident), but notable to point out.

The usual situation when Ravens edits are brought into dispute is for Raven to notify several members who have access to this channel, including EK. Other members he has mentioned include me and LeftyGreenMario. EK has so far stepped in to essentially shield for Raven in these disputes, often by reverting edits to avoid getting him charges of Edit Warring. I have pointed this out before in Archive 102 in the Coop (look for the word proxy). This effectively is Meatpuppeteering, which while not formally against our rules has been discouraged by mods (most notably Ace).

Similarly, in Archive 102 of the Coop, LGM confirms that EK has been feeding Raven misleading and negative information, including about her, but also about GrammarCommie, which is setting up community members against each other.

Conclusion
Well, it's really up for the mob to discuss how to move forward. I'll have a discussion section below (not gonna do Goat, since that resulted last time in a vote being called on a proposal of mine, which... wasn't the point. Remember that punitive votes can only be created 48 hours after the Coop has started, and must last for at least 7 days (and a maximum of 14). 18:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
I love how you accuse me of things I didn't do without citing any evidence. It really makes your argument so credible to outright lie. EK (talk) 18:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * On the Wiki, you are blatanly an example of w:WP:ALWAYS for Raven, as well as w:WP:SID and finally w:WP:XS. I know these are Wikipedia cites, but they link to indicators of sock and meatpuppetry. 18:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are yet to provide any evidence, I haven't edit warred, haven't complained about users unless they were in clear breach of the rules, and there is no rule against helping people out when they need it, that's not meatpuppetry. So you are still blatantly lying. EK (talk) 19:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Mind explaining what WP:Always, WP:Sid & WP:XS are? I only use wikipedia to adjust football tables. Thunderclapper (talk) 19:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:Always is "user is always there for someone" (and notably not much in other discussions). Check all the editorial disputes that involved GR, EK is always there right when he starts getting challenged to back him up. WP:Sid is participation in discussions, which ties into and is very similar to WP:Always, and the evidence speaks to that. WP:XS is Excessive support for ones cause. EK has stuck up for every single content dispute Raven has been involved in up to this point, even when it's becoming blatantly clear that whatever the dispute is about, Raven is in the wrong. All indicators of meatpuppetry, if we're purely going by only on-wiki evidence, of which WP:Always and WP:Sid are the stronger two (WP:XS is probably genuine here, but there is still very blatantly favoritism and meatpuppetry at play here). 19:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Crow is basically saying being always anti-raven is okay, but defending me from obvious lies is not. 19:20, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * She's literally the only one "pro-raven", consistently at that. Literally every other regular is against you in votes, with the sole exception of your vote surrounding GC, where you got some backing from Nutty and Wendy Marx, the latter of whom I have proof of being close friends with EK. When your literal only instance of people supporting you is someone who has been running statistics on the database, and could/should make a complete case with his arguments if he deems it neccessary and a literal meatpuppet, yeah you should probably take into account that EKs support is meatpuppetry in these discussions. 19:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't forget brx, RWRW and Duce, with whom I initially had bad relations but then we made up our differences. Crow, stop lying, you don't need to. You already have the pitchforks on your side. 20:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Crow is lying and covering up for GC
Central theme of Crow's complaint: Concern trolling Crow already confessed he wouldn't apply the same standards to GC and this is only a witchhunt to silence me. Be as it may:

Now, since a cult can't cooperate with other people who call them out, Crow is setting gunsight at EK, who also only has upheld the rules. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for telling a mob armed with pitchforks and torches that they were wrong. If my fate is to get banned for telling a couple goons that they violate the rules, so be it. 18:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Inability to cooperate: Will you indict GC? If not, this point is absolutely moot.  Evidence that I tried to cooperate, which was ignored by Crow: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:The_Crow#Raven_incidents and https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=GR&page=&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_patrol_log=1&hide_tag_log=1
 * 2) Rules lawyering: So upholding the rules as they are laid out is worth a coop? Good to know.
 * 3) Edit warring: I have not violated the 3RR  in any of the cases raised in your page. The only exception was the anarchism page. In which GC also was involved. Will you indict GC? probably not. Also, Crow has editwarred on this very page. Hypocrisy is not Crow's forte.
 * 4) Attempting to use moderators and the coop to sidestep discussions: This is quite untrue, I went to the talk pages and even GC's talk page to settle things only to get my comments deleted. Doesn't work. Also, you won't indict GC because you're a hypocrite.
 * 1) Editwarring: She hasn't.
 * 2) Meatpuppeteering: That charge is hilarious. Do I need to bring up how Crow doesn't understand what a meatpuppet actually is?
 * 3) Setting up community members against each other: She hasn't.

Crow's concerntrolling (different section so I can compile evidence)
19:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Stop comparing your shit to fucking historical martyrs. You're not one. I'm not indicting GC, because by far and large, GC has been fairly positive in responding to bad behavior, and in the case of the talkpage, AMG pointed out how your behavior started to approach harassment, not to mention the fact that you first went to the moderator noticeboard and only went back to his talkpage after EK formally pointed it out to him. I pointed out what Meatpuppetry is by linking to what Wikipedia considers a Meatpuppet and explained what specific indicators she checked when she challenged me on this. Come with better arguments than "what about GC". 19:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Pope Clement, may I suggest you to understand that you lied? GC has done and even himself stated he has misbehaved. But you didn't care, because you are corrupt and protecting your own. Which is fine. But be clear: You don't care about GC editwarring, deleting talk page comments, insulting, harassing, etc. You are Concern trolling. 19:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cut the stupid historical quotes Raven, I'm not a history student. GC has admitted to misbehavior, yes. That said, his literal only crime is reverting talkpage comments, which yes, he's been called out for several times (although notably, the only example that doesn't involve a one time notice from you is involving Ken, who has been banned as well). However, in these cases, it's more often easier to just restore the comments and move on. Unlike you, his main issue is one that doesn't involve dragging any sort of dispute out for ages while making shitty weak arguments, all the while threatening people to drag you through the coop, it's one that can be resolved with a stern talking to at times (which he notably has been receptive to) when it occurs. 19:19, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You don't need to be a history student to understand what the inquisition was about: Silencing dissent and protecting your own clique. You are lying, I tried to extend my hand to you (see your talk page) and you ignored it. Because you don't care. 19:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not lying. I looked through his talkpage. The literal only other time was when he got shit thrown at him for reverting Kens egomaniac spiels and once because of you being a disingenuous asshat in a discussion (which he talked out with when it comes to LGM and his literal only other violation of that recently is his own talkpage). There is an issue, but I would not say it reaches the same degree of the problems that you are consistently producing for the wiki. If you want to make a coop case for GC like I just did for you, be my guest, although I doubt you'll get far. So cut the Whataboutism. 19:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * For full clarity for anyone looking in, Raven just tried to collapse this discussion as concern trolling. 19:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

And he did it again. Raven, stop collapsing shit in the Coop, it's meant to be talked over, not collapsed just because you don't like it. 19:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thrice now. Can a mod step in and say something? 19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven, if you want people to have sympathy towards your position, don't unnecessarily collapse shit in the coop. You're only further confirming what we think of you. — Oxyaena Harass  19:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fourth time is the charm. 19:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

There you go, obstruction of justice completed with success. 19:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Physician, heal thyself! — Oxyaena Harass  20:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Mod comment: We're past that but stop collapsing for spaghetti's sake. 22:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe it’s just me but I find comparing internet drama to historical atrocities to be just a little bit offensive. 00:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's far over-the-top too and pretty insensitive too. 00:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Hastur's take
I see GR and EK as being pointlessly combative and confrontational, true. And they clearly have their own agenda for the site, which often comes across as contrarian (see the aforementioned edits to the MLK article). Ultimately though, they still make useful mainspace contributions and do have some capacity to listen to reason. On the other side I see a lot of counterproductive dogpiling against them. Talk page discussions about mainspace ideally take the form of a dialectic. There is, in most cases, a compromise to be found. Instead of a dialectic I'm seeing a lot more insults and personal attacks. To me, the solution is heavier talk page moderation and an agreement from all parties to follow a specific set of rules on how to edit mainspace.-Hastur! (talk) 19:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hastur, may I ask if your strategy will tell GR and EK to stop being pointlessly combative?-Flandres (talk) 19:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Will you tell GC to stop editwarring and deleting talk page comments? Or not?  19:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see it as easy. Let's be honest, GR's arrival on the site was more than a little rocky, with Oxyaena accusing them of being a necrophile and demonstrating a desire to drive him off.  And in turn Raven decided to escalate.  I'm not saying that somebody else started it, to be clear.  What I'm saying is that regardless of who started it, both sides elected to escalate.  So whoever is willing to keep a level head (including myself, apparently.  Super weird that I find myself as the voice of reason) needs to take it upon themselves to try and deescalate.
 * And it doesn't help that sysops are taking it upon themselves to declare authority upon each other. EK and GR and anybody else making threats to desysop another editor are very inappropriate.  Unilateral desysopping is at best an emergency measure, and I haven't seen anything warranting it so far.  If someone is to be desysopped, let it be taken to the coop/ATIM.-Hastur! (talk)  19:19, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Will you tell GC to stop editwarring and deleting talk page comments? Let's keep that discussion contained to ATIM. No need to have the same debate on two pages.  Well, three pages now.-Hastur! (talk)  19:20, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So, to be clear, you do think GR should change his behavior?-Flandres (talk) 19:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. You can ask him, I've told him as much.  This isn't to say that the editors that pile up on him shouldn't change their behavior as well.-Hastur! (talk)  19:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You have been reading him comparing himself to Giordano Bruno and his critics to Pope Clement and the Roman Inquisition, right? People compare themselves to martyrs because they think they are objectively correct and a unjust society is trying to force them to change their behavior out of stupidity. Furthermore, it casts him as a defender of truth and justice whenever he acts inflammatory because he is "fighting the dogmatic powers that be." Is this really the profile of someone willing to change their conduct?-Flandres (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2020 (UTC)\
 * First of all, he is not the only member of this community with a bad attitude. The issue here is that not only is he combative he's also attracted the ire of multiple editors who have also been unwilling to deescalate.  He has demonstrated a certain amount of willingness to improve his conduct and has gotten better about using talk pages.  So long as I am active I am willing to personally mediate talk page issues, for whatever that's worth-Hastur! (talk)  19:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He's the only member of this community who's literally called himself a martyr. That doesn't encourage good faith. — Oxyaena Harass  19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What's ATIM? Thunderclapper (talk) 19:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A dialectic is useless when one side is clearly engaging in bad faith. — Oxyaena Harass  19:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * An annoying acronym for "RationalWiki:All things in moderation". 19:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've tried to suggest an alternative (on the Donald Trump edit war) and the talk page suggestion was ignored in favor of continued edit warring. In management books the "general consensus" these days is that no matter how productive an employee is, most employees who are consistently an asshole / rude / bullying are not worth the bother, due to the drag they tend to be on the rest of the team. That's kind of where I'm at: many of his mainspace edits are welcome, but are not worth the constant chicken coup / moderation flame wars. (And everyone occasionally has a bad day, so one incident is not wort saying much about. But there's been a lot more than one.) Soundwave106 (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So you acknowledge that I do actually care about this website's wellbeing?  21:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you read the rest of the post?-Flandres (talk) 21:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did anyone ask you to opine? 21:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Any member of the community is allowed to give their opinion in the coop. Again, you just do not understand how this site is run.-Flandres (talk) 21:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did someone ask you to opine? GR (talk) 21:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you read what I wrote? Nobody had to ask me,hmhmhm...-Flandres (talk) 22:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

LeftyGreenMario's take


My experience with Raven has been a mixture of both pleasant and unpleasant, mostly unpleasant. One of my very first interaction with him was him trying to debate the morality of necrophilia on RationalWiki Support Chat Discord channel, and right there I was on the channel, wanting to discuss other subjects, and I indicated I was fed up with that subject matter and then left once people in Discord entertained him for way too long. He got kicked for a bit and then I returned. Saw him come back, but that's not super upsetting, whatever. It's been dragged out way longer than it should've been and Raven's eagerness to stick to his points when others don't want to debate makes others suspect he's a necrophile himself. This is why Oxyaena called him a "corpsefucker" (later apologized and redacted), and he's earned quite a bit of a reputation of being so on the bigger RationalWiki Discord server. I don't think he's a necrophile given the weighty subject matter, and I think the accusations/jokes that he is (which I've seen on RationalWiki Discord) fall a bit flat since I more believe it's his debating style that makes it appear that way. Besides, this is beyond the point.

The first time he signed up, he was nearly immediately attacked by Oxyaena. He tried to remove the content only for GrammarCommie to revert it. GrammarCommie should've left a message on saying when it's okay to remove a message or not, because this appeared to have instilled some sort of precedent that enabled Raven to believe he's justified in removing other content or try to instill a double standard on GrammarCommie's part (reaffirmed by EK who I believe is Raven's friend) when GrammarCommie tried to remove EK's content. On removing content, I did tell others that some wikis do allow people to remove talk page content so you have to tell them politely to remove content or that's how my memory served. GrammarCommie has a spotty history with talk page comments, has a tendency to remove them or weirdly messing with headers (some justified removals are more of the openly hateful stuff ) even though it's better to ignore or anticipate a response and put up a dftt response. But GrammarCommie's own conduct is another matter, and GrammarCommie is not very active on the wiki during this moment beyond a few interactions with 9/11 truthers.

So, at the time when Oxyaena and GrammarCommie started mishandling the page without notice, I wanted to grant benefit of the doubt to Raven, even despite the sour interaction with Discord a while. I expressed low expectations for him via Discord, but I was clear Raven should actually be breaking the rules and being very disruptive before we sanction him. Otherwise, we'd be bending the rules because we simply don't like how he acted in Discord. I want to make it clear that I wanted Raven to contribute. His first few edits actually seemed fine at a glance (and acknowledge my ignorance on the subject) so I was hoping he'll keep that up. Maybe he's just better at wiki editing than at Discord interaction. But trouble happened. There was an edit war in the Karl Max page (primarily by Oxyaena; resolved; see discussion). And then there was an edit war in Anarchism. It seemed like EK was trying to assist Raven in preventing him from reverting too many times in the meantime. Fair enough. I modlocked the Anarchism page. Then it's apparent people didn't like the section (7-3 vote in favor of removing). There's a lot of insults exchanged. Oxyaena, who first escalated through unexplained reverts and insults (who also edit warred with him in other pages such as Karl Max and postmodernism and also engaged in a demop), eventually did get a demop anyhow. But Raven has played his role into escalation too with EK.

Anyhow, that's just one content dispute, but it shows a lot of what Raven is constantly doing. He's been assuming bad faith in others by accusing of whitewashing,, vandalism, censorship, harassment, (making the "EK's a 14 year old why are you harassing a girl" accusation more than once), maintaining propaganda, being anarchists, concern trolling (see below accusation for Crow concern trolling; I also recall an accusation of AMassiveGay for concern trolling though I cannot try to find every diff), while having a combative attitude himself. He told GrammarCommie that he was toxic and dishonest. Right in this coop case, he tried to invoke martyrdom with a quickly redacted accusation of obstruction of justice.. The discussion below, while I type, is filled with the above accusations.

Should have these people, such as AMassiveGay, held off the flaming? Probably. There's no gain from doing so, as frustrated as one can get, as all it does is put Raven on the defensive and veer away from content dispute to dispute on civility and prevents reasoned arguments from occurring. However, Raven maintains this attitude even when criticism is more gentle, such as when he told me "don't you get tired of saying the same things repeatedly" when I had to warn him again on edit warring.

When Godless Raven's not involved in a content dispute, he's happy to share some content through Discord. He tried DMing me through in Discord and that's fine, he took the time down to talk to me and it turned out to be pleasant. It made me hopeful he'll try to listen. I figure even right now he's learning how this works but he's not applying advice very well. He's not really using individual discretion, just learning that edit warring is bad without using discretion. Removing talk page comments isn't allowed. I and Hastur! tried to dispell advice to him, but his comebacks are frequently passive-aggressive which didn't help my impression that he'll improve. This was before he tried to DM me on Discord if I recall correctly, however.

Note that I haven't even gotten to every single interaction that I found problematic with him. He's made a subpage on harassment (which AMassiveGay characterized as libel but I think it's just unnecessary vindictive instigation), tried to get GrammarCommie demopped after Oxyaena got it for her misbehavior (which others have seen has vindictive). I told him off for adding a snide comment in the Fascism talk page and I thought he commented out but he commented out + added "parental controls" which completely just dismissed my advice. I really want to go into those as more evidence that these interactions are an absolute drain, but I don't know, I feel I might be overkill.

Anyway this all has been massively draining to me. I'm exhausted. I can't bat for Raven despite some good interactions with him. He's been grinding on other fellow editors who I also have good interactions with. He has been combative to me as documented and doesn't take my advice very well? I still don't know if he believes I'm out here to get him or to cover others just because they're my friend and he's not. I'm a flawed person, however, and since Raven often is a source of many conflicts, some justified or not (Tuxer, AMassiveGay, GrammarCommie, Oxyaena, Flandres, Feineleiru, The Crow, HairlessCat all have not been the most pleasant to him and likely for a good reason though some have expressed their frustration worse than others), it all adds up. Given GrammarCommie's resignation over this from mounting frustration, which I take seriously, I just cannot defend him even if some users are unnecessarily flaming him or frivolously accusing him of harassment. If he gets banned I think it'll be a benefit for the wiki.

EK, however, I cannot leave alone because she also played her part in trying to make Godless Raven think ill faith on me and she still hasn't apologized or fessed up for making a malignant and false accusation of my intentions that has made Godless Raven more wary interacting with me. In fact, she characterized Crow's documentation of her potentially spreading false narratives about me as "without evidence", so not even an acknowledgement. I don't know if she's still sharing screenshots of my posts through DM and making false interpretations of my intentions and continuing to make Godless Raven appear to dislike me. I do not want to accuse her of anything malicious. I do not want her banned but she has greatly damaged my perception and trust of her, and so I also cannot vouch for her if people want her off the website, though I will not make my own effort to remove her either. 21:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you LGM. GR (talk) 21:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Content disputes
See talk pages too. Some of these, Godless Raven may be in the right or wrong. Just want to show how draining this all is.
 * Anarchism failed anarchist societies
 * Martin Luther King Jr homophobia
 * Tucker Carlson opening insult
 * Donald Trump opening quote
 * John Maynard Keynes private life (trying to construct a parallel with Martin Luther King Jr.'s alleged homophobia
 * Postmodernism (Oxyaena at fault here)
 * Facism origin of red fascist

Endorsements for punishment against Raven
I proudly endorse blocking Raven for a few weeks (or just banning him). Pretty much every charge above is mostly valid. Who wasn't tired of his obnoxiousness like, a week ago already? Shabi DOO  19:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ban the fucker. — Oxyaena Harass  19:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy, I know you get horny over bans but the is't the only answer. You really should be backing off that sort of behaviour. AceModerator 00:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Let's not make this coop yet another Ace/Oxy quarrel,hm?-Flandres (talk) 00:17, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. 00:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That is not my intention. AceModerator 00:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps you should not start a tangent about Oxy getting horny over bans and focus more on why you think GR is worth keeping.-Flandres (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I shall do what I wish to do which I have done now. As to GR, I don't have the stomach or patience for another Coop match right now so I have said my bit. AceModerator 00:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh dear god yes!(note this is not technically a vote)-Flandres (talk) 19:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's amazing we can sometimes not be down each other's throats about something. — Oxyaena Harass  19:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ACAB: All Communists Are Bastards. GR (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You have yet to adress that almost none of us are communists. In fact, ever since you first made that allegation you have never proven it.-Flandres (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Because I didn't. You just are goons. There are trolls and bad people of all types of ideologies. GR (talk) 22:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You also realize we are not all working together against you? I am nobody's goon, I have no agenda other than my own, hmhmhm... In any case given the preponderance of powerful users who are not aligned with him here this dictatorship ruled by Pontiff GC only exists in your head.-Flandres (talk) 22:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Having been on the Discord myself for a long time I've seen first hand how toxic Raven can be. He is without a doubt one of the most toxic individuals I've ever come across. He also accuses anyone who disagrees with him or argues with him of being a far leftist, even when the person argues their not far left. I believe that a permaban is the only way to deal with Raven. Adam Warlock (talk) 02:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Editwarring
Crow, Oxy, Flandres, and others are editwarring this page. 19:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel comfortable saying that we shouldn't be using collapse templates here. They're antagonistic and this page has enough of that.  I'm inclined to say we shouldn't be using them anywhere, actually-Hastur! (talk)  19:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Ban the fucker". Okay. I guess that's fine now! Along with deleting talk page comments. Love those double standards. 19:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You want to coop Oxyaena go ahead but it's not going to improve anything. To the contrary.  We've already got two debates going on this website: deleting talk page content, and whether or not you and EK should face disciplinary action.  I'm inclined to say that nobody wants a third debate.  Particularly since the discussion you're hinting at would set precedent for penalizing editors calling each other names-it would be sure to be a long and painful discussion and nobody wants that-Hastur! (talk)  19:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You can't argue with raging neanderthals was my larger point. 19:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * For the record, I've already been sysoprevoked, so there's not much I can do to somehow damage the website. Cooping me again would be a waste of time. You also blocked me for an hour for undoing your collapse. Good job. — Oxyaena Harass  19:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How have I edit warred? I have not reverted anything! Are we clear on what edit warring is?-Flandres (talk) 19:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Does it involve soap? — Oxyaena Harass  19:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I at least got you sysoprevoked, which felt really good ngl. 19:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I really appreciate it. You're not helping your case, you know. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I will get banned anyway. I can't reason with goons. 20:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you need to take a look in the mirror for once. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  20:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are very clearly going to get banned because you're constantly trying to pedantically argue rules in a way that is only meant to harry and annoy. You could fucking stop.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I could, but I am a consistent person. So I will defend what is right. 20:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are a very myopic person. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  20:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So, did he just sidestep that whole "Flandres is somehow edit warring" thing?-Flandres (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "YOU DELETED AN UNHELPFUL COMMENT GET BANNED!!!" is not "the truth". Being honest is only a defense if you're not clearly lying your ass off.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

If you think that, fine. I hope in the future you see how mob psychology works. 20:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously incapable of self reflection? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  20:15, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven it's not edit warring when I repeatedly try to get you to talk to me about those revisions. You are consistently the one who kept pushing the collapse templates back in, even after I've pointed out to you that you shouldn't use them that way. Maintenance isn't the same as edit warring. 20:20, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting argument. Would you apply it to GC? No? I know you won't because you are lying, once again. 20:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cut the Whataboutism. This is about you and your behavior, not GC. And once again, you are the one who instantly ran to AINM instead of politely trying to talk it out (which should have been your first step, and which as you can actually see in AINM, I tried to do with your situation and what EK actually tried to do with GC from what I saw). 20:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, you got your wish. You will finally get rid of the only 2 socdems on ratwiki. good job, man. 20:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure you two aren't the only Social democrats on the site. Thunderclapper (talk) 20:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The only vocal ones. But that's ok. Rationalwiki will just become radicalwiki or incestualwiki (with all the brotherhood fucking, is what I mean). 20:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Read Crow's userpage. He identities as a socdem.-Flandres (talk) 20:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Crow is ALLEGEDLY a shitlib, if anything. He sure likes to lick the boots of the communists. dunno man. 20:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * GR, you're the one who has been trying to get rid of the two vocal communists here in the RationalWiki. You managed to get Oxy promoted all the way to autoconfirmed and are now calling for additional punishment to her. Taking her out of autoconfirmed makes no sense (whatever you may think of Oxy, she isn't a vandal), so clearly you're calling for her to be banned. And you've made repeatedly similar coop demands regarding GC.
 * I get that I'm not a very vocal here, but that's just because I'm generally too lazy to edit. And While I may vote the Greens, I'm a big believer in Social Democracy as the overall system of government. And I think you're far more toxic to RationalWiki than Oxy and GC put together. So kindly get that massive chip off your shoulders and fuck off you tone policing, sealioning shithead.Coigreach (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * GC's profile says that's he's strictly opposed to communism. Thunderclapper (talk) 21:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. Good argument. 21:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, good job on bullying User:EK away. Nice. You're the good guys of course and we two are the baddies. Because we dared to speak out against injustice and harassment on this website filled with scum. 20:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've been here for 3 days. Thanks... Thunderclapper (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not directed at you . Let me advise you: Never cross their mafia boss (GC) in here or they will silence you. 20:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You make it sound as if this site is as bad as KiwiFarms or 8chan. Thunderclapper (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It isn't. But the tactics of harassing their opponents to ragequit is something they share with 8chan and the other nazi websites. 20:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * For instance, EK deleted her userpage. They harassed her to no end and she is now thinking about leaving. She is a 14 yo girl btw. Not that her abusers care, anyway. So yeah, good job. 20:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagreeing with both you and EK was not harassment any more than Giordano Bruno strongly disagreeing with the church was spreading sin and causing the collapse of all moral society.-Flandres (talk) 21:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Then check her talk page, you lying prick. Even GC apologized. 21:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Impressed that not instantly hating commies makes me a shitlib. Normally that's a phrase you see on the right making fun of the left. Anyway, EK leaving is her own prejorative. I made my case, she chose to leave instead of arguing it to be in her favor instead. If she wanted to, she could and hell, she still can. Her charges are far less egregious than yours and in my eyes certainly capable of just being a slap on the wrist, given my personal suspicions that your friendship isn't exactly equal (aka you're using her, since she's 14 and teens are known to be easily impressed). But she would have to argue that. And for that matter, realize that fact to begin with, which she doesn't seem to be aware of. 21:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

ACAB: All Communists Are Bastards. Proven right once again. 21:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You realize almost none of the users here are communists, right?-Flandres (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK harasser. GR (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So you have no response to my point other than to accuse me of harassment?-Flandres (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Why should I care to answer to an obvious dishonest cretin? GR (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven, given I have told you repeatedly to stay off my talkpage and to leave me alone, something which you have failed at spectacularly, I think it would be VERY wise of you to not bring up the subject of harassment. Glass houses and all that... 21:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're a terrible person and you're being enabled by bad people. You win, tho. The field is yours, you bloodsucking opportunist commie. GR (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, no response other than baseless insults to something that is easily verifiable (if you look through the posts of most users you will find this site has a small number of communists and the users GR claims are usually are not). Perhaps that is why most people here want to punish you. Just admit for a moment that the flaws might be yours, not the product of a mythical far-left discord conspiracy.-Flandres (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I won't confess to any crimes I haven't committed. You can ban me, but you won't make me say things. GR (talk) 21:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Me telling Raven to leave me alone Not one, but twenty violations of that request. If Raven is punished for nothing else, perchance he should learn not to hurl around accusations of deeds he himself is guilty of. Twenty times over. 22:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

You're a liar. You harassed EK. But nobody cared. And it doesn't matter anymore. You won, and you're a terrible person. GR (talk) 22:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Twenty violations, no attempt at deescalation, repeated unsubstantiated assertions of bad faith. Raven, You're really lucky that I don't actually have a vendetta against you. 22:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Weren't you retired? Your unhinged discord comments about me tell me otherwise (about the vendetta). But you won GC, the goons are behind you. You now are free to whitewash anything you want. GR (talk) 22:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey Raven, is this the harassment, or this because all I'm seeing is asking someone during a content dispute for permission to proceed and didn't get a clear message. 22:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm done with you too LGM. You sided with the bad guys. There is not more I can't say. GR (talk) 22:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're more trouble than a flooded basement, and I spent 11,000 bytes explaining why. 22:20, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven, when you get accused of harassing someone, it might be a good idea not to respond to them in a manner that could be construed as threatening physical harm... Just a thought. 22:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Both left (I think. I see red names).
So, is this coop still relevant, then? Thunderclapper (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, because they might quickly come back. GR has done this once before, a quite short time ago in fact.-Flandres (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't. I just deleted in case I get banned before I can edit. I will keep up the fire until I get effectively banned. GR (talk) 21:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is more like a "I don't my stuff on this shit website without me being able to delete it" sort of situation. Can't speak for EK, but if she jumps ship, I'll jump too. GR (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Everybody whose solution is gently slapping his wrist till he changes conduct please note that statement. My psychoanalysis of him earlier has proven true. To him altering his conduct would be surrendering to the fanatical mob of dogmatic cretins.-Flandres (talk) 21:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Psychoanalysis is a pseudo-science. But I think you're right about the "fanatical mob of dogmatic cretins". GR (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ignorance that psychoanalysis is colloquially used as a slang term for any deep evaluation of a person noted. Also, see guys? There is not point trying to get him to change his conduct to help him become a better contributor. He makes my arguments for me.-Flandres (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm going to get banned anyway. The truth has been suffocated, but the truth never dies, despite what the Holy See thought or spoke. GR (talk) 21:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The truth about what? Ever noticed most of the users that disdain you do it because of your actions, not your political views?-Flandres (talk) 21:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

That's your opinion. GR (talk) 21:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you not read most of the posts here? Few are about HE DEFIED THE HOLY WRIT OF MARX! They cite you being impossible to work with and causing/escalating enough dram that you are a hindrance. This is not just *my* opinion,hmhmhm...-Flandres (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're a shitstain of a human being. From now on I won't even respond to your shit. Go fuck yourself. GR (talk) 22:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a fascist movement rising in the US, and you people are still in-fighting. HairlessCat (talk) 22:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no infighting, because we aren't on the same side. Red fascists are a thing (and they inhabit this website). Socdems shouldn't cooperate with commies because All Communists Are Bastards. GR (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * An insult that would wound me if it came from someone actually capable of understanding and judging people competently, but I thank you for bowing out of our little rivalry before it could get any worse, hmhmhm.-Flandres (talk) 22:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that's enough arguing. Start determining the fate of the atheist big black corvid with a wedge-shaped tail now. 22:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

A vote
Keep the arguments to a subsection, don't clutter the votes. No I will not provide a shorter ban as an option unless enough of you think that's too harsh. 22:19, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Indefinite Ban Raven and sysoprevoke

 * 1) Let my last contribution to this site do away with a complete piece of abusive shit that has spat on the path of the Dove, repeatedly. 22:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As long as I get you drowned in the mud my mission is accomplished, you commie shitstain. GR (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not a communist, and wow, implicitly admitting to harassment... That's something else... 22:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't. But you harassed EK. So that's pretty much it. GR (talk) 22:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I want to point out that I feel Raven's attacks on me personally, in contrast to my own disputed interactions with EK, have been unforgivably egregious and have led me to supporting a ban. That being said, there is a case to be made for more moderate action, and I encourage others to read the reasons outlined in the other sections in good faith before voting. 01:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Fuck 'em. He's not high functioning, so I say we send off to argue with actual fascists on big brain websites instead of "red fascists." As if the word "fascism" doesn't refer to far-right authoritarian nationalism. Who knew this would lead to the departure of Grammar Communism from this website. Now, we are stuck with Grammar Keynesianism. HairlessCat (talk) 22:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Have you all ever heard the Greek tales where Hubris was met with Nemesis? In this scenario, tragic last resort that it is, I will be happy to play the role of Nemesis. No matter how ugly things get here, no matter who leaves, and this wiki will continue and I will be happy to stay on long after GR has been reduced to a sad memory,hmhmhm...-Flandres (talk)
 * 3) I was going to vote for the 22 days, but the last 15 minutes of him chopping his own head and legs off and flailing around on the coop page, insulting and accusing most of us of crimes against humanity has done it for me. Let his brief userdom fade away quickly and become an amusing anecdote we eventually forget about. Shabi  DOO  22:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  00:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) 100% yes. Raven's behavior is creating unnecessary conflict. There is also the issue of Raven spewing authoritarian talking points which is very bad. So yes I support a ban or at least a suspension. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) It's going to happen sooner or later. So let's do it now and get it over with. In a funny way, Raven reminds me of Ken DeMyer. Ken saw this place as an atheist/agnostic wiki, saw everybody else here as his ideological enemy and came here to try to destroy the wiki from the inside. Raven sees this as a communist/anarchist wiki, sees everyone else here as his ideological enemy and came here with the intention of causing trouble, probably with the the hope of being swiftly banned so he could moan about how evil we extreme left-wingers are. In his first interaction with me, he seemed to be determined to pick a fight over a matter I considered to be already resolved. Let's now give Raven what he's always wanted anyway and permaban him. Spud (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 7) Just indefinitely ban him. I don't think he's ever going to change his ways. Magic Master (talk) 02:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 8) His behavior on Discord and on this site proves that he is not fit to be member of RW. Adam Warlock (talk) 02:17, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 9) GR will likely keep being a pain if this is a temp. A short block might hold some amount of effect, but it's more than likely not going to instill much positive change in him. Just look at his conduct in the coop. If he doesn't permanently ragequit with a temporary block (which is a possible option), he'll likely try to go on a revenge spree when he gets unblocked. I say that we shouldn't give him that opportunity.  08:51, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Temporary Ban Raven (minimum 22 days) and indef sysoprevoke

 * 1) Indef bans for being obnoxious rub me the wrong way. People can grow up.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 23:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah I understand this vote. I'm kinda split between this and indef myself. Leaning to this though. 23:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm going to go for a temp ban of some sort. I like the month-long option the most because it *feels* like indef, but it really isn't and it's more than enough time to hopefully resume to normal affairs. 01:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll change my vote to this if it's a tiebreaker-Hastur! (talk) 01:21, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I think I'm in this camp for now. Indefinite bans seems over-drastic, but his actions during the meltdown in my opinion justifies a stronger response than simply a timeout of only a week. He clearly has a persecution complex and some anger management issues unfortunately that he'll need to work through if he wants to come back. Soundwave106 (talk) 01:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) For the health of the wiki. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 01:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) As I’ve said in other coop votes, I generally don’t like going nuclear (i.e. permaban) immediately. However, I think the voting options needlessly split the temporary ban votes. I think the options should have been a permaban/temporary ban/no ban, followed by a second round of voting to determine the duration, in case temporary ban wins out. Personally, I consider that a week might be a bit on the short side, though, if the goal is a time out for reflection. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming all temp ban votes would count cumulatively vs. the perma total. There's also the small matter of the required two-thirds majority for permanent removal. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 16:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ken was banned with less the two thirds of the votes cast, so I think that rule has been unofficially suspended.-Flandres (talk) 16:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Unsure if that would be the best way to go. The way the vote is right now, none of the options meet the 2/3rd majority mark, even if you were to add up all the votes for temporary blocks (temnporary has 8+5=13 legit votes, whereas permanent has 10, which makes for 23 total votes. 13/23*100=56 percent majority for temporary). In a similar note, LGM seems to have voted twice for both temporary banning options (which you didn't strike, and in my counting the math for this, I removed one of her votes, but if you were to go through with removing both of her votes, you'd get a 54% majority for temporary). In any case, votes have to last for at least 7 days in accordance with CS. I'm also not 100% sure if we would want to add temporary up, it seems a bit like math wringing. Maybe having a mod say something on this could be useful? 17:01, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair point re. LGM - I'd missed that. As far as 2/3 goes, the language in the CS isn't particularly clear, but the spirit of it (to me at least) seems to be that no-one should be permanently booted on a simple majority, and certainly never on a mere plurality of votes cast. And, yes, this has implications for the legitimacy of Ken's removal. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 17:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I voted twice just to know I'm fine with either option, and not very enthusiastic with permaban. Ken is.... Another case but there's probably not much enthusiasm to bring him back. 18:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * there used to be just a permaban and this option but a third option was created along the line. 18:35, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

1 week ban and sysoprevoke

 * 1) He is having a meltdown and the humane thing would be to give him a chance to cool off before permanently giving him the axe-Hastur! (talk) 22:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nah, burn that sinner. GR (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He has exhausted enough chances already. 22:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't belive you have read all this and think a 1 week ban is a solution, hastur.-Flandres (talk) 22:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He's clearly having some sort of meltdown. Permabans are usually reserved for pedophiles and real world threats-Hastur! (talk)  22:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * We've indef banned a fair few that were neither like UnlicensedThinker, Oliver Smith, TheDarkMaster2. That seemed to be precedent we're relying on now. 22:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Wasn't around for those. Anyways, it's one vote.  We'll see where it goes-Hastur! (talk)  22:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ineligible, per CS Despite the fact he's a dickhead, he can write. This site is dead enough as it is 'cause people like me can't write articles for shit. Prior indefinite bans'  tend to be for long term legal issues, and saloon trolls whose contributions don't include mainspace. Jem (talk) 00:10, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I can't even remember the last time an infinite ban was (honestly I mean - not Oxy's dishonest bans). So no. AceModerator 00:17, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Can't you give it a rest already? I`m sysoprevoked, get over yourself. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  00:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I am "over myself" I was trying to explain when I last saw an infinite block. But it was actually Ken, I think, who received an infinite ban - community supported. AceModerator 00:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Raven can be helpful and had potential, but his meltdown on this page and other instances of antagonism have convinced me that he needs to spend some time in the drunk tank. 00:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that Raven is at the end of his leash here. If he comes back and resumes his bad behavior, I will immediately support banning him. 00:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He said he wouldn't. If EK left, he'd be gone too. He already left the discord aswell. Thunderclapper (talk) 01:12, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) One week is just the month long one I propose, but just me feeling very generous. Once that time's up, Raven's on probation. I really think this is giving him yet another chance he doesn't really deserve, but it won't hurt trying aside from your keyboards I guess. 01:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ineligible, per CS I still hate his guts.   Trump 2020 (talk) 01:23, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I struggle to see what he's done wrong here, besides two short periods of edit warring, and some bickering. That said, the particularly all out flaming of the last day suggests that a short block is appropriate. 09:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Nutty Roux (talk) 11:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) As this is the least drastic option which is likely to pass I'll vote here.  I can't believe that we are talking about an infinite ban because someone is a bit of a jerk.  And whatever that may have been said down the pub, on discord or anywhere else is not relevant to what is going on here.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:35, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Exactly what Bob said. AceModerator 13:01, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) What they said! Scream!! (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) There's at least two people supporting a permaban who can also be weapons-grade assholes on wheels when the mood / meltdown takes them. I'm unaware of anyone, ever, seriously discussing permabans for them. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) Should be adequate. Bongolian (talk) 20:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Magpie
Remember that punitive votes can only be created 48 hours after the Coop has started, and must last for at least 7 days (and a maximum of 14) GR (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * BTW, those are Wikipedia rules, not RW rules. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  17:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They're on top of the coop as well. 17:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay. It's not like 48 hours is going to be the difference between getting fried or not. 22:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * By the way you can put up a vote to try to impeach me from moderator position. 22:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nothing better than violating the rules of coop to ban someone for upholding the rules of Ratwiki. GR (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What we are seeing here is the complete condemnation of GR by a massive majority of users here. I fail to see how this balance could alter in the next two days/week and even GR admits that. We should try and close this open wound as soon as possible(again, the mob is sovereign not the standards), because do you really want to see a week more of this? I think that this particular guideline is foolish so I admit I have a dog in the fight for rushing the vote.-Flandres (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry GR, your grotesque headless chicken dance on this coop page has pretty much exhausted everyone out of discussion. Let's just get this over with. Shabi  DOO  22:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also nothing better than vote tampering. You guys are brilliant. GR (talk) 22:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not tampering, this is the will of the mob granting you a special exception, because that is their right.-Flandres (talk) 22:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Let me guess, this vote won't even last one day. Because nothing better than democracy when you can tamper with votes. Just like the Soviet Union had elections. GR (talk) 22:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Tampering with procedure(though tampering implies the community has no right to do it, which is not true), true, but the votes? All those are genuine, and I fail to see how the outcome would have changed if we waited longer. All that would do is give you more time to flail and whine. I am merely endorsing swift and firm action,hmhmhmhm...-Flandres (talk) 22:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nuff said. Tampering with votes is ok now! GR (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, because a majority agreed to do so! Look up the definition of Mobocracy,hmhmhm...-Flandres (talk) 22:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven seems to be referring to my telling GC to pretend Raven's vote doesn't count in the Discord is tampering. 22:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should have read them Raven. Perhaps everyone here should have... Now, I'm going to remove Raven's trolling, and it will not go back, Ok? Ok. 22:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, you're messing with the votes. GR (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, you repeatedly violated the guidelines anyway GC. Not that it matters. GR (talk) 22:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

One thing you have failed to grasp with regard to the rules and their enforcement: There are no mandatory punishments for breaking them. The moderators are, in fact free to ignore requests to discipline users should they choose to do so. You can vote for other candidates next election, should you survive the effort to expel you from the wiki. My advice to you is apologize to GC and promise the mob you will quit being a jackass. Ariel31459 (talk) 23:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * To be clear, I put that notice there out of a desire to do the coop "by the book". The main reason for this is to prevent EK or someone else from undoing any possible punitive actions that the mob may choose to enact on the grounds that we didn't follow policy. That said, the mob seems to have universally agreed that there is no point in dragging it out to the 48 hour mark, so we have the vote for GR now. 08:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh good!
Another Coop! All your favourites hits! Oxy showing a complete lack of self reflection in accusing GR of doing things Oxy made a RW career out of. GR calling everyone communists, Comrade doing his thing, LGM trying to be the reasonable one but failing (I can see the frustration behind the edits). Amazing, wonderful, good time had by all! I'm staying the fuck out of this until someone can at least put the issues succinctly. I'm tired of all this back and forward yelling and bullshit. AceModerator 00:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Asking for succinctness isn't going to net you a satisfactory answer. 00:24, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No I know. I'm saying no infinite bans - that's my position. AceModerator 00:25, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You do realize that my RW career isn't entirely one of drama, right? Of course, you wouldn't know that, since you were gone for years before showing up out of the blue in November. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  00:28, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't make me regret unlocking the page. 00:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I`m just saying not to bring up old shit. It just rekindles bad feelings. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  00:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would warn Oxy not to take the bait but Ace did instigate.-Flandres (talk) 00:35, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. Ace's behavior has already done its damage for a fair amount of users here. 00:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Um, what the fuck are you talking about. I went away after calling Oxy a cancer and came back with a fresh spring in my step. WTF are you referring to? AceModerator 00:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Clarify, I don't think as many people, I included, will be as enthusiastic for you in the mod elections this year if you decide to run again. 00:49, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK - that's great. If I lose, I lose. I'm not going have a cry-wank over it then slink away muttering dark thoughts and vague threats. AceModerator 00:51, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, fair enough. I'll still probably complain about stuff on a public Discord though, I will give you that. 00:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * To be honest I think my modding over the last month has been great. I've brought several issues to the mob (community standards etc) managed to dispassionately get Oxy dealt with (by which I mean doing so with personal discrimination) and have been a fairly polite and friendly person. I'm feeling love, baby. AceModerator 00:56, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess. Seems a bit peripheral.Ariel31459 (talk) 01:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Anyway - it's not time for campaigning yet. AceModerator 01:01, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I’ve disapproved of many of Ace’s comments in the past, but I do think he’s generally cleaned up his act. 01:01, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I see, though it'll take longer for me to warm up to him. It's getting there, I'm chatting with him Discord and such. 01:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This isn't about me though. We can save this for another time. AceModerator 01:04, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure. Let's get this coop case done with. 01:06, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I felt I've been downright civil, given my level of frustration. Though of course, that may not come accross as well as I'd hoped. 01:19, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Within regards to EK
Should probably do a vote for her too. 09:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Permanently block EK
Ineligible, per CS Stone cold bitch, get her off this site like we got her off the Discord. You'll regret it later if you don't get rid of this feminazi now while you have the chance. Jem (talk) 14:22, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Aren't you over-exaggerating here? "Stone Cold Bitch", "Feminazi"? Are you an Alt-righter or something? Thunderclapper (talk) 14:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you take a second to read the Alt-right glossary? Secondly, please consider your votes on the merits of the case as presented rather than trying to pursue a personal vendetta involving off-wiki behavior. 15:18, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep the Discord witch-hunt off the wiki if you please. 17:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

A slap on the wrist and a warning to not meatpuppet.

 * 1) I will reiterate what I've said before in the coop. I don't think EKs charges are as egregious as GRs by a long shot and I have suspicions that she is being manipulated by GR. As a result, I propose slapping EK on the wrist and a stern warning to not meatpuppet, provided that she does not turn into a GR 2.0 whilst he's gone/this behavior doesn't continue when GR gets back.  09:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) I agree that she has allowed herself to be used as a meatpuppet and I think a slap on the wrist is appropriate. Spud (talk) 10:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) Privately, I think it should be more severe so I might change my vote, but I recognize I am in a minority so it is either this or doing nothing.-Flandres (talk) 12:21, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) HairlessCat (talk) 15:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Do nothing

 * 1) The charges against EK appear to be false (ordinary definition of meatpuppetry not reached) and she quit anyway making it a moot point.  09:21, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Check the first replies in Discussion. I clarified how she met the ordinary definition of meatpuppetry in there (specifically, by meeting the criteria of WP:Always, WP:Sid and WP:XS). 09:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You provided no evidence of any specfic actions being meatpuppetry, and the criteria of the Wikipedia essays you cite aren't met by anything that I've seen over the last couple of weeks. 09:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd say the evidence of it is pretty obvious. If nothing else, I and several others have seen the coordination take place on Discord. I'm not saying that I support any action (because I don't), I'm just saying it has been taking place. --RWRW (talk) 09:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not doubting that some coordination took place on Discord, I'm saying that the aforementioned coordination doesn't meet the definition of meatpuppetry. 10:06, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Where do we have a definition of meatpuppetry now?Ariel31459 (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2020 (UTC)


 * 1) We've had our disagreements, but EK and I are good friends. A slap on the wrist is enough, she's done a lot of good work for the wiki in regards to technical maintenance and such. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  10:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Goat

 * If there's more desire for other options, feel free to ask. I personally did not think a sysoprevoke is appropriate, given how EKs tech rights aren't at issue here, but if the mob thinks so overwhelmingly, feel free to add it as an option. 09:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel this second Coop was unnecessary gravedancing but whatever floats your boat mate. 09:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * She was a part of Ravens coop as well, check the charges for him. As my vote should indicate, I do not support punishment beyond a stern warning to not meatpuppet. I'll be honest in that I didn't want to coop her, but it was needed since otherwise the way Raven approaches edit wars makes no sense. Ergo, I propose just a slap on the wrist. 09:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You have no idea just how extensively Discord coordination is used by members of this site. If discussion on Discord constitutes meatpuppetry then oh boy. Half the votes in the Raven Coop above were demonstrably canvassed from Discord, countless administrative issues, editoral issues and so forth by dozens of editors, often far more involved than Raven and EKs chats. This has been standard practice for years, and you want to make it illegitimate now? Purely to warn one person who you have been flaming with. Geez what a mess. 10:12, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven is the only person I've ever met online who genuinely thinks of himself as a martyr. Other people, no matter how difficult, aren't nearly as full of themselves as Raven. This is beyond mere "flaming," Raven is a genuine menace. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  10:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dude, I’m sorry - this isn’t about beef between you and me, and I don’t want to take it there, but you martyred yourself over and over and over. Quitting, calling everyone fucks. You even lied that a mod had privately told you, in your own coop case, that it would be a mod only vote. The reason I am saying this isn’t to start anything with you but glasshouses and stones. Displaying egregious hypocrisy... vote against GR based on the reasons the coop was brought on - that’s all that is required, not your own personal commentary about how much you dislike GR’s attitude which is similar to your own. AceModerator 12:22, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't lie. I was told that it was a mod only vote, but I wanna keep my source private so as to prevent them from getting dogpiled on. They're one of the participants in the drama here. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  17:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You keep saying you don't want this to be another pissing match between you two, but you also keep bringing this up when it has no relevance to the current proceedings. Oxy being a hypocrite would not invalidate calling out GR for his own behavior even if it was true. This is about GR, after all, not the supposed hypocrisy of other users.-Flandres (talk) 12:33, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Then reason GR has been cooped inst because they are a martyr or because they are full of themselves. Stick to the topic. AceModerator,
 * - EK and GRs behavior crossed the line from "mere discussion of an on-wiki case" into "using the Discord to coordinate arguments and responses to specific content disputes". The former is expectable and in my eyes acceptable, since sometimes you just get off-topic chatter that only tangentially relates to the case at hand/questions that would be filler if discussed during the dispute. EK and GR on the other hand were coordinating their arguments and using off-wiki chatter to allow EK to instantly step in to defend GR in content disputes, which crosses the line. 15:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah we all do that, its been common practice for years and used to formulate countless content disputes, bans, blocks, mod activities, elections etc. That ain't an argument. 17:21, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Both are indefinitely banned
Close the coop case? Open another? :P 18:37, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems did it? Assuming it's not something that's about to be changed back... I guess? This is a bit out of the left field though (especially for EK, the overwhelming majority for her seemed to be nothing/slap on the wrist).
 * Since they were blocked by their own request they could just appeal to a sympathetic user to end that ban. It would be nice to clarify our official policy on them first but if you want to close it now that is hardly inexcusable.-Flandres (talk) 18:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * EK wouldn't have been sanctioned, nevertheless she didn't wish to continue contributing here. I'm 50/50 on how long Raven would have got. In the end the mob got what it wanted. 18:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll be honest, with EK, I really find that unfortunate. Not so much with GR. In any case, I guess we'll let the vote run it's course out of formality? It would at least justify possibly having to add a permaban template to GRs page. 18:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Seconded, Crow.-Flandres (talk) 18:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Was GR permabanned? If so it should be undone immediately - the vote is tied. AceModerator 23:38, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It was by his request for LANCB. 23:39, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, all the above is to stupid to read through. AceModerator 23:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't blame you. ^^' 23:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven, Dysk and EK all quit the wiki (Raven and EK changed their names and blocked themselves, the RatWiki Support Chat server was nuked out of spite so I don't think they're coming back). I say archive this, put it to bed and may the 2 weeks of coop/mod noticeboard bickering finally come to an end. --RWRW (talk) 23:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Spud (talk) 00:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep - good plan. AceModerator 00:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sad, but glad it's all wrapped up. Shabi  DOO  00:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)