Talk:Clinton body count

JFK JAQ
Where were the Clintons on 22 November 1963? Anna Livia (talk) 16:48, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Bill was 17 years old and at high school in Arkansas. According to him, he "was in high school math class when he learned that Kennedy had been assassinated in Dallas, Texas" (https://www.biography.com/news/john-f-kennedy-bill-clinton-handshake-1963). He actually met JFK as part of a Boys Nation delegation who visited the White House on 24 July 1963; here's a picture of them (https://i.redd.it/lo8pfsifigy41.jpg). There are also rumours that Bill tried to seduce Jackie in the 90s (https://www.inquisitr.com/2602518/bill-clinton-tried-to-seduce-jackie-kennedy-with-wrestling-match-she-thought-he-was-just-like-jfk-report/). The two families were certainly acquainted, and the Kennedy family supported Bill's campaign for POTUS (https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19930825&slug=1717693). Hillary was 16 years old and at high school in Illinois. She didn't meet Bill until 1971, when they both attended Yale. 2A00:23C7:99A4:5000:D92F:79CE:F22A:8180 (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Origins
Why does this page claim in multiple places that Danny Casolaro originated the Clinton Body Count conspiracy? Citation needed. Casolaro was known for the Inslaw PROMIS case, which didn't have anything to do with the Clintons, and he died before Bill Clinton ran for president and before most of the alleged body count victims died.
 * I've corrected the information on the conspiracy's origins. Bongolian (talk) 18:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Jeffrey Epstein might warrant a second article
I have seen so many variants of the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy theory with different culprits that I'd be interested in seeing something discussing it. StudentofPhilosophy (talk) 00:33, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I completely agree that Epstein probably merits an article of his own, both due to his own deeds, but especially due to the oodles of conspiracy theories about his life and death and I think these go well beyond “The Clintons did it!!!11!!”, which is the only variant under discussion in the current section. ScepticWombat (talk) 02:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh come on, his death is totes suspicious
BOTH guards were "asleep" at the time, which, knowing prison guards, is not much of a stretch, but less likely than not. Let's see, he broke his hyoid bone which is common in strangulations but uncommon in suicide by hanging. Not impossible, unusual things happen all the time. Epstein had claimed his prior suicide attempt was an assassination disguised as a suicide, but the video footage ended up being "disappeared" and permanently deleted due to "clerical error". This is much less likely, but not impossible. The footage for Epstein's cell the night of his actual death was "unusable" due to the two cameras in front of his cell "malfunctioning". This is highly unlikely. It's not impossible that Epstein killed himself, but it's rather unlikely. CoryUsar (talk) 03:42, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have started a draft about him if you want to add anything/give talk page input.-Flandres (talk) 04:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Never attribute to malice what can be explained by plain old stupidity, or just not giving a shit. If you had to watch over a notorious inmate like Epstein, would you care if he decided to kill himself? Prisoners in the US are already treated like crap, never mind sex offenders. According to an NYT article, the guards falsified records which demonstrated their incompetence/carelessness, which is what people do when they fuck up and don't want to lose their job (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-jail-officers.html). This would also explain the cameras (and that's if they even worked to begin with; shitty equipment in a US prison doesn't surprise me, even with the huge amount of money they spend on incarceration). Just listen to this shit:


 * "Both officers who were guarding Epstein were working overtime because of staffing shortages. One of the guards, who did not primarily work as a correctional officer, was working a fifth straight day of overtime. The other guard was working mandatory overtime, meaning a second eight-hour shift of the day." (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jeffrey-epstein-guards-falsifying-records-1.6037236)


 * That right there screams negligence, not a well-oiled conspiracy.


 * As for the "smoking hyoid bone", is this incident really comparable to other hangings? Prison inmates usually don't have the room or materials to properly hang themselves. Additionally, strangling a person is very hard work; was there any evidence of a struggle, either on the body or in his cell, or evidence of double ligature marks, which would indicate postmortem staging? People who are being strangled usually put up some kind of a fight, and end up with defensive wounds as a result. Is a broken hyoid bone really the main piece of evidence? And the bigger question is what exactly would his murder accomplish? He had weeks to spill his guts and try to get himself out of trouble, or at least reduce his jail time. Killing him would not reduce suspicion, only increase it. And why not murder Maxwell too? She has to know as much as he did. Hell, why even allow the two to be arrested in the first place? It just seems like the old dilemma; the conspirators are both flawless experts who get away with it and hopeless amateurs who can't make a simple suicide look right and do a shit job of hiding the evidence. If it was a murder, it was sloppy work. Hell, why didn't they just put him in gen pop and wait? It's not like child molestors are very popular in prison. Far less suspicious.


 * Some more good info on the medical evidence can be found here. Turns out that hyoid fractures are actually not uncommon in older people who hang themselves, since the bone becomes brittle with age (https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/ni70er/cbcca_jeffrey_epstein_prison_guards_admit_to/gz0v2pw/).


 * And why blame Clinton? The Donald was POTUS when this happened, and knew Epstein quite well. Funny how all the conspiracy theories never seem to land on him. 2A00:23C7:99A4:5000:D92F:79CE:F22A:8180 (talk) 21:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean?
''"Moreover, evidence of other possible crimes (e.g., emails, phone records, financial statements, address books[27], etc.) would easily survive Mr. Epstein. Assuming that conspirators were powerful and clever enough to murder Mr. Epstein in a secure federal detention facility by himself, yet incapable of eliminating other witnesses and destroying other evidence, or too stupid to consider that killing Mr. Epstein might not be enough to cover their tracks, is beyond credulity." ''

This just doesn't make sense, is the article saying that it's unlikely that conspirators didn't destroy emails and phone records if they killed Epstein? How do we know they didn't do that? No alleged sex offender is arrested yet, so as far as we know there's no evidence, yet this article suggests it's probably true other rich people were involved. The Epstein conspiracy, like a lot of other conspiracies, is literally unfalsefiable, you can't proof that it did or didn't happen because there's no evidence of how Epstein died, and as far as we know there's no evidence that other people raped those girls either, so either the evidence for those things doesn't exist or was destroyed/hidden/obfuscated. Conspiracy theories are simply explanations of certain events, and usually those explanations are wild, illogical, complicated, contradictory and far reaching, but that's not the case for this conspiracy theory, so to just dismiss it entirely with the argument "it's a conspiracy so it's not true," is unfair. Maybe the theory is far reaching and stupid, but that's not properly demonstrated in this article. Dapperedavid (talk) 12:59, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
 * There needs to be some sort of evidence in order to claim a conspiracy, otherwise it's just baseless speculation, which is what a lot of these theories seem to devolve into. If that's "not the case for this conspiracy theory", I'd like to know why. We do have some evidence as to how Epstein died, such as his autopsy, and his attorneys are claiming that this is proof he was murdered, even though the medical examiner ruled it a suicide. The logical gaps highlighted above echo what I'm thinking. 2A00:23C7:99A4:5000:D92F:79CE:F22A:8180 (talk) 22:07, 9 February 2022 (UTC)