RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation/Archive68

Rational Dude
While Rational Dude has contributed some useful content, there has also been problematic behavior. There are so many pages where Dude has only been adding categories, often without supporting text. Dude has been warned about this in February, and Dude has gone back to repeating the problematic behavior. There have also been some instances of Dude's abusing of Sysop rights, as noted on Dude's talk page (User talk:Rational Dude). Bongolian (talk) 03:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I could see this coming a mile off. I take it that for now we just want to very strongly point out to Rational Dude that his behaviour has been a problem. I don't think any actual sanctions are needed this time. This should just be considered a big slap on the wrist. But if the same thing happens again... Spud (talk) 11:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to cause any problems. Next time, I'll add sources and paragraphs that support the categories. Rational Dude (talk) 12:48, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Rational Dude is consistently not listening to advice with regard to categories. See User talk:Rational Dude for the latest. I'm thinking that a ban on adding or changing categories might be appropriate. Bongolian (talk) 01:50, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me. Spud (talk) 02:27, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * ...and to me. Scream!! (talk) 12:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No need to ban me, I was rushing again. Rational Dude (talk) 12:58, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Bongolian proposed a, not ban. You'll still be able to edit. I believe you'll still be able to add categories to your own drafts as well. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 14:09, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Is the topic ban permanent or temporary? I don’t want to topic ban either, I have a habit of adding categories. Rational Dude (talk) 14:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Supposing it passes (spoilers: it probably will) you will be able to appeal in the future, but you should wait for at least a couple of months IMO before appealing. I understand people have different habits and preferences while editing, but categories aren't such a big deal, really. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 14:17, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That’s good at least. I’ll try to be more restrained with editing, but sometimes my ocd kicks in and I feel that some categories to add are justified being in there. Rational Dude (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t really favor a topic ban right now since I don’t want to discourage a user who is contributing honestly to mainspace. However, I expect this to be a warning, since I’ve been annoyed by some of this as well. 18:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be fine except that this is Rational Dude's 4th warning about excessive categories: 1) User talk:Rational Dude 2) User talk:Rational Dude 3) User talk:Rational Dude 4) User talk:Rational Dude.
 * I can sympathize with OCD being an issue. I don't have any personal experience with OCD though, so if someone who does can comment that might be helpful. Bongolian (talk) 23:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I totally understand Duce's point, and I don't think anyone likes to sanction a well-meant, motivated and overall productive user that made more edits than anyone else this year. However, I think the topic ban would be the best not only for the Wiki, but for Rational Dude too. My proposal: he wouldn't be able to add categories for existing articles, but he would still be able to add categories for his own drafts (he seems to create a lot of them, and they often go to main space). If he abuses the categories on the draft space too, any mod would be able to extend the topic ban to them as well. I repeat, I'm not happy with this sanction, and I doubt Spud, Scream and Bongolian are, but it's probably for the best. If Rational Dude and the rest of the community agree with this proposal, I think we don't even need a vote, which would be the most stressful part of this ATIM case. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 23:47, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand now. I’m not trying to make excuses for my actions or weasel my way out of this. Do what you have to. I take responsibility for my actions. But please don’t topic ban me for too long, sometimes categories can genuinely be useful. But I’ll learn restraint from now on, I just use categories to organize them because it’s helpful for my ocd. Rational Dude (talk) 00:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * As per all other drafts, categories (if present) should be in comments. Also, changing categories and creating new categories should be part of the ban if it passes. Bongolian (talk) 00:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Question. Is the ban merely making new categories, or does it in fact cover suggesting new categories [which a third party may find reasonable and creating] too? KarmaPolice (talk) 18:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think would be perfectly reasonable for Rational Dude to ask someone else to create a new category. Bongolian (talk) 19:36, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Topic ban for Rational Dude
The topic ban being voted on is preventing Rational Dude from adding or changing categories on pages, with the exception of commented out categories on drafts he creates, as well as preventing him from creating new categories. Any further details can be worked out if need be.

Yay

 * 1) Probably for the best. If he was warned (at least) four seperate times over a period of months, then clearly it's a recurring issue. If he gains a better understanding of wiki etiquette, this can be overturned. Plutocow (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Definitely for the best. Spud (talk) 04:27, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) I didn't want it to come to this, but it seems like the best choice at this point. Bongolian (talk) 04:52, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Per above. I'd rather do this by community consensus, but whatever. I'll gladly vote to overturn this if Rational Dude changes his behavior. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 10:30, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Scream!! (talk) 10:35, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) ←§ Edward the eight (talk) 11:36, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 7) Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 12:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Nay

 * 1) Still not a fan. 21:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Goat

 * 1) While I do not believe adding unnecessary catagories is worthy of sanctions, compulsively making irrelevant changes on this site should not be encouraged. I have no problem with the general idea of category lists at the end of main space articles despite having doubts as to their utility; but, very often, these lists can become a rat's nest of typographical detritus. Our articles are not free association tests. Ariel31459 (talk) 14:40, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) What Ariel31459 said.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:56, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Neutral vote on this. Keep in mind that RD has ninja rights. Those might have to be revoked if needed. Not that I think Rational Dude will abuse them or anything. -- Techpriest (talk) 22:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So, it's been more than a week. Should we close this? GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 16:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I thought it had been, so yes! Scream!! (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

PotterGarry
This asshole's a piece of shit genocide denier who's clearly not here in good faith. Can we yeet them already? Carthage (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Here they are apologizing for rape and cultural imperialism because it's not "unique" to China. Carthage (talk) 18:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * let's topic ban him ←§ Edward the eight (talk) 18:24, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, topic banning is more than justified, especially as they have tried to push their views into mainspace. They seem to be a single-issue editor anyway. Plutocow (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair, but I won't be surprised if they turn out to be banned anyways later on. Anyone who trivializes rape like that is bad news. Carthage (talk) 18:29, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Excuse me if I am skeptical of rape claims from women who specifically say "I wasn't beaten or abused". Call me radical but rape is by definition abuse so to say you were not abused and then cry rape means you're a liar and a bad one at that: rookie mistake, get your lies in order. It's cheap propaganda. China has not declared Uyghur women to be what the right hand possessed and rape is illegal in China and everyone is aware that it is illegal. And even if there were common rapes, that doesn't make it genocide. Genocide is attempt to DESTROY not subdue and Uyghurs don't adhere to 1-drop rule they are not Yazidis or Druze or Parsi. Now, contrast that with outside Xinjiang where large percentages of men you-know-where think that Ala kachuu is legal and do it all the time. This is just "the boy who cried wolf". Sorry but that idea that anything is genocide only when the big bad Chinese do it is laughable. This stuff you are accusing China of is just Standard Operating Procedure in Central Asia. Turkmenistan mosques all have pictures of Turkmenbashi but it's only bad when Chinese mosques have pics of Xi. Kyrgyz rape en mass Uzbek women it's practically an election tradition and everyone reminds them that it's their fault for living in Bishkek. Uzbeks mass lynch Meskhetians over a bowl of strawberries. Uzbek commandants "father" children with special settler Crimean Tatar women who legally cannot disobey them and nobody bats an eye. But Uyghur women lawfully marry Han or Hui men or Uyghur men lawfully marry Han or Hui women and people lose their minds. Soviet government prints zero Crimean Tatar language literature for over a decade but god forbid Uyghurs learn Mandarin like everyone else. China bans anti-China mandarin literature and everyone shrugs. China bans anti-China Uyghur literature and people lose their shit. China bans beards and you scream genocide. Tajikistan bans beards and everyone cheers. Albania bans beards and everyone cheers. China makes 2- or 3- child policy apply Han people nobody bats an eye but when Uyghurs have to follow that law too (just like women in Uzbekistan) everyone loses their minds (even though the Uyghur birthrate is still higher). China demolishes churches and nobody bats an eye. Azerbaijan shuts down unapproved mosques and nobody bats an eye. USSR converts mosques to schools and gyms and nobody bats an eye, but when China does the exact same thing to mosques time to scream genocide? Get a grip and start being consistent with the word genocide, save it for the REAL thing and don't just the gun. Gee, I wonder what the common demonimator is here. This is just a cheap propaganda at a time of trade war used to distract from actual extreme repressions so that Kyrgyz sellouts to America can sleep at night feeling good about themselves for verbally standing up to "protect the Weegurs" after they finish raping their "brides" as punishment for voting wrong in their "democracy". Now show me one example of a submissive Uyghur who serves their country that is asked to stop identifying as Uyghur because making Uyghurs look good by being loyal is a "security threat". Show me a government official encouraging Uyghurs to commit suicide to prove loyalty. Show me a decade long period without a single state-approved Uyghur book published. You can't because China isn't the USSR and never was and never will be.--PotterGarry (talk) 21:19, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Topic ban sounds appropriate, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see this user become a problem again in the future. 21:39, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

He's still spamming on my talkpage. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A topic ban is enough for now, I guess. Since the user is not even autopatrolled, I don't think we don't need a vote for that. Just revert and give them small blocks. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 22:04, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Rape and genocide apologetics are beyond the pale. Bongolian (talk) 00:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we don't tolerate Nazis. Why are we tolerating this asshole? Carthage (talk) 00:32, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not condoning rape and genocide I'm just pointing out the absurd double standards. People who cheer on literal bridal kidnapping as tradition have no fucking grounds to stand on complaining about China offering financial gifts for people lawful consensual interethnic marriages (which actually makes sense since people in interethnic marriages often get disowned by their families and therefore wind up in financial hardship due to lack of family support, therefore simply reducing detterent to such marriages).--PotterGarry (talk) 01:11, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A topic ban is the very least PotterGarry deserves. The above rape apology is absolutely disgusting. Spud (talk) 02:36, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Lawful consensual interethnic marriages" like when a guy with the literal power to throw me in a camp tells me I have to marry him.... You know what that's called? Forced marriage. The power dynamics are not equal. You know what to do when you find yourself in a hole, right? Stop digging. You're doing the exact opposite of that. Carthage (talk) 02:44, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Refusing a marriage proposal is not a criminal offense in China and most of the public is aware that it is completely lega. I have NEVER seen a pro-rape or pro-bridal kidnapping rally in China. Nobody goes to prison for rejecting a marriage proposal you're just mocked for being picky or at worst called a "leftover woman" and your parents keep trying to find you a match. You can go to prison for refusing to stand for the anthem or trash talking the government or having a huge beard but not for rejecting marriage. Give me a bluebook citation for the law or decree specifying the criminal penalty for a Uyghur refusing a marriage proposal for a non-Uyghur.--PotterGarry (talk) 02:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * (EC) Ok, for me, you're topic banned then. I'll start to enforce it right now, 9 hours because of the rape apologia. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 02:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, it's settled. If PG continues to post cringey stuff on unrelated topics, we will topic-ban those as well, if not issue a topic ban the whole wiki.  01:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess. I don't agree with just topic-banning the fucker, but if that's the consensus so be it. Just don't be surprised when I say "I told you so." Carthage (talk) 01:32, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Topic banning is more fun than you think it is, because we can enforce it with escalating block lengths. If this guy keeps posting this shit for long enough, we can shitcan him potentially for months at a time. 02:18, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yikes, this dude should definitely not be allowed on here. We shouldn't tolerate tankies. Rational Dude (talk) 15:53, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Eh, I changed my mind. Not voting to spare.  Personally, I think it's worth the entertainment of thwacking him with a banhammer repeatedly, but I guess if you only want to thwack once...  20:58, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I've been away for a while. Been busy with other things. What the hell am I looking at?!? NGL, he does raise a good point about interethnic marriages potentially running into trouble due to prejudice. But there's a damn good reason why power imbalances in relationships get looked at with extreme concern at the very least. --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Thought I'd ask, but who are VolkVulture & Adrian Zenz supposed to be (our China lover mentioned these two on his talkpage)? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 22:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Zenz is a well-known German researcher on the Uyghurs. We refer to him on our Uyghur genocide. He's been a target of Chinese disinformation ({wpl|Adrian Zenz}}). VolkVulture appears to be an internet nobody. Bongolian (talk) 00:31, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

yay

 * 1) From what I understand, they already have this sanction? Granted, if this means they can't dispute it in the future, I'm all for it. Plutocow (talk) 15:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Scream!! (talk) 15:30, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) for now at least but if this user becomes more problematic in the future then he will be banned ←§ Edward the eight (talk) 15:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) For now. If somehow, PG proves themself to be a valuable member and reformed, maaaaybe this can be revisited.  Otherwise, goodenuff.  17:00, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Yee. (っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ Natsuki Marx ♥ (talk) 17:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) Bongolian (talk) 17:19, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 7) Their mini-screeds are troubling and tiresome. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 19:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 8) ...Wow. Whenever you think you have seen everything you are quickly proven wrong.-Flandres (talk) 19:33, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 9) Make it so. 20:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 10) If the permaban doesn't come forth. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 08:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Ineligible

 * 1) Carthage (talk) 19:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * User wasn't here for the required 3 months to vote in penalty votes. Plutocow (talk) 01:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

nay

 * 1) No on all bans at this time.  PG is likely to reoffend, at which point my vote will change, but until then we will just watch.  17:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * After review, I'm not sure PG's ever contributing anything of significant value. If we keep him around, it's only for entertainment.  20:56, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) He still posted on ATIM after Geejay gave him the Topic ban a few days ago. Diehards aren't stopped by just 3 weeks. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Sitewide ban: permanent

 * 1) Yes. I'm voting for a permaban. Spud (talk) 01:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Tankies can go fuck themselves. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 08:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Nazis and tankies are two sides of the same coin. Rational Dude (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) Scream!! (talk) 16:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) After reading the disgusting rape apologia this user posted, I’m landing here too. Nothing of value will be lost. 18:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) The main reason I did not vote for this at the start is that I thought it wouldn't gain any traction. I'm happy to be wrong.-Flandres (talk) 19:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 7) I hate to vote for permaban, but rape and genocide apologia is something that we shouldn't tolerate. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 22:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 8) just like wisconcom he will be banned ←§ Edward the eight (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 9) The stench of bullshit apologia and China cocksucking worshiping tankie crap from the recent talk page discussion alone is inexcusable, indefensible, and disgusting. BobJohnson (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 10) Not even an entertaining troll; they just repeat the same victim blaming and whataboutism ad nauseum. Plutocow (talk) 01:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 11) Rape apologia is no bueno, least of all if its to stan for the CCP. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 12) Bongolian (talk) 01:56, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Ineligible

 * 1) We don't tolerate Nazis. We shouldn't tolerate this asshole either. Rape and genocide apologia are "beyond the pale" as Spud said. Carthage (talk) 19:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Goat
Remember folks. Escalating block lengths. 20:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note this comment was made before permaban was an option. 02:31, 16 July 2023 (UTC)