RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive363

Flat Earthers have an "answer" to everything. What is their response to this?

 * Eratosthenes was a paid NASA shill. Duh. Wake up! 00:27, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That calculation relies on the assumption that the Sun is far enough away that any difference in the angle at which sunlight intersects the ground is due to curvature of the Earth's surface. Flat Earthers propose a close Sun, where differences in sunlight angles are due to parallax. What they don't respond to are things like this and time lapses of the night sky at the equator where you can see both a northern and a southern center of rotation. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 10:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, first you believe eratosthenes about this, next you'll start thinking there's a way to generate prime numbers. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:38, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Or, God forbid, that crank Aristarchus. — Oxyaena Harass  21:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

A while ago I discovered this observable phenomenon in this debunking video. (see image on the right) It's essentially just clouds being illuminated from underneath by a setting sun. This is referenced as proof that the sun is in fact dropping beneath the clouds relative to the observer, and this means that the sun must actually be physically dipping beneath the horizon. I added this to our page on this subject a while ago because I think it's pretty compelling and I don't think anyone could formulate an honest rebuttal. What do you guys think? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 21:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's technically a good point, and it may be convincing to either someone unfamiliar with "flat Earth" arguments or to someone who actually knows the relevant physics of the situation, but it would probably not be very effective in an actual Internet argument. There's a whole subculture of arguments on this topic, and something that frequently pops up is a misunderstanding of optics. It's very common for flat-Earthers to propose arguments that rely on an inversion of Snell's Law. If sunlight bends away from the normal with increasing atmospheric density rather than towards it, there's no problem for a flat Earth model with sunlight on the bottom of clouds. After all, that's generally how they explain the apparent position of the sun at the horizon in the first place. You'd have to clear up the optics misconception before using this argument effectively. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 17:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In English, please. Neo Stalinist (talk) 00:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That was English. Do you want a diagram explaining the misunderstanding of refraction? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 10:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks! Neo Stalinist (talk) 22:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Optical misconceptions aside, this phenomena is in fact caused by the source of sunlight dropping beneath the clouds, right? Also, our page discusses shadows creeping up buildings during a sunset. I haven't been able to find any good videos of this phenomena, and I'm not sure how it demonstrates the physicality of sunsets as our page suggests. Also, I couldn't open the link in your first reply. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 04:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Protesting funerals
Be you the Westboro baptist church protesting the funerals of soldiers who they blamed their deaths on allowing gay marriage to the protesting of the funerals of violent offenders, murderers or rapists...is this behavior ever reasonable? It is illegal in many countries. Not in others (free speech or something). I've always found it pretty ghastly, whatever the motive...as there are 364 other days of the year to protest. What do you think? Shabi DOO  14:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think free speech (american sense) is bad. It should be illegal anyway. Also, homophobia bad. WBC bad. Not sure if you will find someone who will defend that gross behavior in here, tho. 14:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's what the first amendment (free speech) refers to. https://xkcd.com/1357/
 * The WBC are the kings of poor taste. Someone should ship them to a deserted island in the South Atlantic ocean. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 15:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Free speech is good. I don't see the problem with funeral protesting, although protesting their birthday would make more sense. HairlessCat (talk) 16:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem is that some people find it "ghastly", and the concept of disapproving of something without wanting it to be made illegal has largely disappeared from Western civilization. As for the First Amendment to the US Constitution, it protects "peaceful" assembly. This means that it's totally legal to disband a protest if it does something that "breaches the peace", though preemptive laws trying for that have found little traction in the US. So a riot at a funeral can be disbanded. A group quietly holding signs at a nearby public park generally can't be. As for whether protesting at funerals is ever reasonable, I'll leave these examples for you to judge. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The WBC also tends to just go to random funerals of soldiers to complain about the gay agendatm, which makes them rather stupid for their goals. I would say that it's never right to protest about someone's death near someone's loved ones unless you're doing it to right some sort of wrong that their loved ones are having (which the U Thant funeral crisis seems to refer to). The goal of protests like the WBC is purely to cause unrest and upset people. They're just being provocative for the sake of getting a bunch of attention drawn to them. Don't give them that attention, nor give them the right to do that I would say if that shit were to occur in my country. Right to protest is fine, but I would say the law to not disturbing the peace is something that surpasses it. I know that statement will be controversial though, but I'll stick by it. 18:17, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "unless you're doing it to right some sort of wrong" Well, that's the thing. People tend to protest things that they think are wrong, in order that attention might be drawn to the issue as something that should be corrected. The WBC thinks that homosexuality is wrong, and that a society with permissive attitudes towards it invites divine punishment of the Sodom and Gomorrah sort. They therefore think that it's a Very Serious issue, to the point of taking extensive time out of their daily lives to protest it, while inviting nearly universal disapproval. It may feel nice to attribute all sorts of vices to people you don't like, but the WBC does not lack conviction, and they won't be dissuaded by a lack of attention. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 18:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually no. Hard-core free speech is an American concept and does not exist as such in Canada, Europe, Australia etc. And I don't know anyone in Europe with the slightest passion for that level of "anything goes" free speech. Hate speech laws exist in Europe and Canada in a way that cannot in the US and they are widely supported by the population. I know for a fact that in Spain you'd be arrested for harassing people at a funeral. In Canada the police would make sure the protesters maintain an extremely large distance from the cemetery and funeral home. I'm also fairly certain that it would be met with wide public approval (the dispersal). I personally don't want to live in a country where I cannot bury a loved one without being harassed. And I completely support the laws in Europe which prohibit anti-abortion crazies from harassing people trying to enter abortion clinics. Why should it be any different with people in mourning? Shabi  DOO  19:20, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't want to live in a country where I can be harassed or assaulted by the government for saying something or standing on public property. If a Nazi wants to advocate for the slaughter of Jews, that is his right. This is purely practical: if Nazis don't have inherent rights, neither do you. HairlessCat (talk) 19:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

A uniquely American view on certain civil rights questions. Everything or nothing. Sorry but there is a whole lot in-between two extreme black and white poles. Shabi DOO  19:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Do not quote mine me. The full sentence had "that their loved ones are having" attached to it. I know that it doesn't work for your argument to include that so you removed it, but I don't appreciate that so quit strawmanning. Also yeah free speech absolutism is absurd. If you're calling for the death of any group, you deserve to get arrested for it since you're making calls of violence towards that group. Easy as that. Nobody loses their inherent rights, you can still express your hatred of say, Islam all you want (as much as I dissapprove of it and I will throw you off my personal property if you start doing that, natch), but the moment you start steeping into calls of violence against people, you can just frankly get fucked. 19:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think HairlessCat's idea is an "American view" in any way. Practically, complete freedom of speech doesn't exist in the US as well. BLM protesters are arrested simply by telling the cop "all of you are my family". This is America. Dogeatsdog (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So you would say most Americans would support European/Canadian hate speech laws which would make it a crime to verbally dehumanize marginalized people? Shabi  DOO  23:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Damn, you guys are commies. I have the right to my own body, and that includes my words. If I wanted to fly a swastika above my house and say disparaging things about various races, that is no business for the government to penalize me unless I actually cause real harm, not emotional harm or some airy-fairy bullshit. This is where the whole "intolerant offended SJW" stereotype comes from: authoritarian neoliberals. The slippery slope also applies here. If ANYBODY is not allowed to speak their mind, you are setting a dangerous precedent. If I burned a Bible or a Quran for being evil, that could be considered hate speech--as it has been numerous times. If freedom of speech can be discriminated, freedom of speech doesn't exist by definition. You don't have a choice. Freedom of speech for some speech and some people is what right-wing authoritarians use. Now, imagine you are on the receiving end of "hate speech" laws. HairlessCat (talk) 23:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hairless...do you agree with the basic limitation of free speech if the person is:
 * libeling someone's reputation?
 * Screaming murder and causing a panic on a bus?
 * Inciting people to commit a crime?
 * Putting someone in danger by say, lying that they have a gun in their hands?
 * Would you, at the very least agree that those are reasonable limitations? Shabi  DOO  23:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As little limitation as possible. Practical limitation that ensures safety and health.  Censoring opinions on forcing those people into secret oppressed echo chambers is not a practical limitation, nor is it necessary even in theory.  Unless you're an authoritarian that can't take any verbal or ideological dissent. HairlessCat (talk) 23:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you give me a yes no answer to those four points? Shabi  DOO  01:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "libeling someone's reputation?" If it has consequences, such as them getting fired.

"Screaming murder and causing a panic on a bus?" Depends on if it's funny or not. "Inciting people to commit a crime?" Yes, not the speech itself, but the intent to commit a legal crime. "Putting someone in danger by say, lying that they have a gun in their hands?" Yes, not the speech itself, but the intent to commit a moral crime. I can see the difference between censoring a lie and censoring an opinion, but as I said, there should be as limited limitation as possible for pragmatic safety reasons. Europe still actually seems to have more of a Nazi problem despite attempting to suppress it. HairlessCat (talk) 02:34, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The only conclusion I can make is you seem to think that hate speech doesn't do the kind of damage or create the kind of danger the other things do. And it is ridiculous to think so. But then people who never have to nor will ever have to face hate speech and the damage and danger it can cause...well it's only natural their apathy and dismissiveness towards it. You cannot help but not care Shabi  DOO  02:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, if a Nazi says something bad, I will say something to him. If a Nazi punches, I will punch him.  I'm just working on his level, not being a fascist--just like him--and taking his money or having the cops haul his ass to jail for something he said that hurt your feelings because you disagree with it. If some redneck is advocating for gays to be executed by the government, what he deserves is to be called a moron. You also think I'm immune to hate speech for some reason--simply because I don't want to have the government attack people for things they did with their mouths and their tongues.  Sounds a lot like conservatism to me, in different ways. HairlessCat (talk) 02:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I, for one, totally support limiting hate speech because the US clearly chooses competent people to run the government and decide what qualifies as such. There's a very stable genius in the White House now, who's universally known for his cool temperament and ability to conduct thorough research. I can't see any way the government could abuse hate speech laws... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 03:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I for one think the US would be cool if they actually uphold freedom of speech as they claim. No, in reality the freedom of speech only extends to the white majority, and dissidents are being shut down by the state apparatus as of this moment. It's x100 worse than "authoritarian" Europe. Dogeatsdog (talk) 10:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh those damn authoritarian Europeans. Doing terrible things like prohibiting weapons of murder (guns), protecting marginalized people from hate speech, forcing children to have live saving vaccines before endangering others at school, prohibiting shops from kicking LGBTQ+ from their services, enforcing strict separation of church and state. What a fucking nightmare. It's so obvious there aren't millions of immigrants and refugees flocking there for a better life. Shabi  DOO  13:36, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd like all of those too. Yet remarkably, even with things as is there are a lot more Europeans immigrating to the US than Americans immigrating to Europe. So there must be something worth coming here tor. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 15:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah those who want to make a big cheque and not have to pay a fair share of taxes to contribute to minimal social services. You can have all of them. Shabi  DOO  16:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that's the only reason people come here. Though someone forgot to mention this to my Czech, Albanian, and Greek neighbors clearly just wanted to blow off taxes, who told me things like (successfully) seeking a higher standard of living. It's not that you're never wrong, but there are plenty of people who actually succeed in and like this country. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 00:44, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course people have multiple motivations to go to the US. I was being flippantly dismissive in the same sense that comparing immigration numbers doesn't particularly explain much. A lot of it is brain-drain from Western Europe (partially from the East) due to privately funded universities with enormous tuition and some scholarships, the ease of quickly getting shitty jobs in big cities (especially for Eastern Europeans), niche jobs, work mobility (which is difficult here because of labour protections) and yeah, an undeniable factor is higher salaries and lower taxes. It is attractive to some people. Getting visas for EU countries are not particularly easy unless as a temporary English teacher. There is also the language barrier (that is Europeans far more likely being able to Speak English than Americans speaking anything but English) and the lack of any concept of "The European dream". I was simply responding to the ridiculous idea that Europe is authoritarian because it protects vulnerable people from hate speech. That's such a fucking stupid thing to say. Shabi  DOO  01:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

It fucking worked
You'd never have heard of this asshole and his fundy brady bunch if he hadn't radically and repeatedly crossed lines of good taste. But you and millions of others have, and in those millions are thousands of sympathizers who bolstered him and his otherwise failing church. He won. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah and Trump became president by doing the same thing. You must be proud. He won. Shabi  DOO  16:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sympathizers? The WBC is pretty much universally hated, even by many of your right wing fundie types, your bike-riding veterans, and others down the line. They actually get much less publicity than they used to because the media has stopped giving a shit as well in recent years, from what I can tell. The "church" consists of mostly his extended family, and is funded largely by his extended family... plus legal fees they collect every now and then, because Fred Phelps and much of his family was/is, in addition to be asshole wife-and-children beaters, a scummy lawyer asshole who I think half does his schtick in order to try and provoke people into doing sue-able things. At any rate, your life has got to suck when you spend so much time and effort into spreading doomsday idiocy due to the "other" like they do. A whole world to see, and your choice activity is picketing, say, a soldier's funeral because gay something something? Pretty pathetic. IMHO worth ignoring in most cases, or (when they are being particularly overly annoying) doing the Patriot Guard Rider schtick of shielding the event. Soundwave106 (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Though I'd say, it's pretty hard to ignore it if you are a vulnerable person in mourning burying a loved one in the ground and they are screaming rancid shit at you that has nothing to do with anything. Shabi  DOO  18:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If your only counterpoint to that trick is to declare it wrong, as if you've got a clever insight, you've already lost. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:22, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I see, and you're under the impression you offered any insight at all? Shabi  DOO  22:28, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:03, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah Ikanreed...well you are a doo doo head! Shabi  DOO  20:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It didn't fucking work - they greatly increased the awareness of anti-LBGQTI crap thus furthering the cause of tolerance and acceptance, thus indirectly helping many other minorities gain acceptance. They have been completely routed.  Long my they continue to have their positive effect on tolerance by being the poster-boys for fucknuttery! Aloysius the Gaul 22:34, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes -- and no. What 'direct action' feebs like Westboro Baptists achieve mostly is to make some ideas too toxic to engage on their own terms. When they inspire that kind of behavior, there literally is no point in asking whether they do have a point.  Likewise, the carryings on of the anti-abortion cult delegitimiza any argument about 'when life begins' or is a fetus a 'human'.  Until they stop carrying on in that manner, the only answer I am willing to contemplate is 'absolutely not'.  The same is true of vegans and animal-rightsers; so long as they act that way, I am obliged to commit to the proposition that animals are property and their owners can do what they please with their property.  I just refuse to engage with their ideas given the violence and deceit all of those causes inspire. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 05:10, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

“Do not quote mine me” This is frankly a bizarre accusation. I was referencing a specific part of your statement one line above my own, plainly visible to anyone who might be reading in its complete context. And no, that has no bearing on my argument at all. The additional “that their loved ones are having” is so vague as to be useless as a qualifier. The WBC, of course, think that the loved ones attending the funeral are at risk of divine punishment just like everyone else, so they meet your condition. Are you conceding the point on the WBC’s motivations, then “inherent rights” A curious notion. A right is effectively a normative statement that something should be a certain way, particularly with respect to socially-imposed restrictions on behavior. As such, rights are fundamentally negotiated parts of a particular society’s social contract, not something inherent to humans per se. Alternately, if you’re referring to rights bestowed by dint of being born in a particular place, I as a citizen and resident of the USA have all sorts of rights that most people elsewhere don’t. Including the right to advocate (in speech, print, and various other forms of media) for violence against various groups. The line in US law is at advocating for serious criminal violence against specific people. And note that this is about advocating actual, physical violence. Words themselves are not violence despite what some people have claimed in discussions here. And on that note, funeral protests typically don’t involve calls for violence against people, so where did that come from? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 10:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Stupid language games. Shabi  DOO  11:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Should this gal be banned?
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Trump_2020 --Delibirda the Annoying Grammar Nazi (talk) 19:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * they haven't edited in a year, although I do support banning furries on sight.-Hastur! (talk) 20:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * there are serious harassers like Oxy and GC that should be banned first. They actually harm this website. 20:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Furries are fine. But otherwise, we don't ban on ideological differences, only if ideology amounts to rule-breaking such as trolling and discrimination. The contributions for this user could've been far, far worse. 20:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven could you please keep personal grievances out of the bar. It's tired shit. This is not the space for it. Shabi  DOO  20:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Discrimination is just a recognition of some difference between one thing and another, possibly with a resulting difference in interaction or treatment. It's a vitally important part of life. Discriminating between potable water and sewage is important, as is discriminating between useful contributors and trolls. The negative connotation it's acquired is due to the most common uses of the word today being in legal and ethical situations where certain attributes are illegal or unethical to use as a basis for discrimination in treatment. And so many people use the conceptual shorthand that "discrimination is bad" when the real situation is that "improper discrimination is bad". 192․168․1․42 (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting. So could you give an example of proper discrimination when it comes to say, African Americans or people who are LGTBQ+? Shabi  DOO  21:44, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * none of us have had a problem with Oxy or GC. Other then clashes on opinion things have been fine. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 22:08, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure. African Americans typically have relatively high dermal melanin. This makes them more resistant to sunburn but more susceptible to vitamin D deficiency than lighter-skinned people. If you're conducting a world tour consisting of some number of African Americans and European Americans, it is reasonable to discriminate based on race when considering how much sunscreen and vitamin D supplements to stock. A legal but (IMO) unreasonable discrimination based on race is Affirmative Action. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

No. Discrimination would be not inviting certain people of a race because you don't want to pay for (or don't want to deal with the hassle of) their [perceived] particular skin treatment needs such as sun protection. But then, you weren't really concerned about anything like that. You're playing language games. Confounding analytical-discernment with social-discrimination. On purpose. What a dope. Shabi DOO  01:24, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Responding to the question: Who do you think they should be banned? According their page they have a particular political opinion, describe themselves as female and a fury. None of these things are prohibited here. So could you explain exactly what the issue is?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * “No.” Get yourself a printed dead-tree dictionary and see what it says. I just gave an example of a recognition of differences based on race, which is used as a basis for differences in treatment. Clear-cut racial discrimination by the definition I gave above. It’s just not improper discrimination of the sort that is a more common modern use of the word.
 * “You're playing language games.” My original point was correcting LeftyGreenMario’s use of the word. Semantics is the specific point of contention here. “Discrimination” is obviously not a problem per se. He was advocating for discrimination in banning policies based on the actions of users. A non-discriminatory (that is, indiscriminate) banning policy would involve either banning everyone or no one.
 * “Confounding analytical-discernment with social-discrimination” Discernment is a synonym of discrimination, with both being nuanced variations of perception and/or judgement. Check a thesaurus. And look at what you did there with “social-discrimination”. You recognized that discrimination is a general category of thought or action, and so you used an adjective to narrow the scope to something you could draw a contrast with. And, of course, there are all sorts of non-controversial obviously practical uses of social discrimination. You didn’t call everyone on this page a doo-doo head, after all, just Ikanreed. Discrimination in legally-specified contexts based on legally-protected demographic classes is a specific case, not the only case. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Way to prove Shabi's point. — Oxyaena Harass  09:51, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The Last of Us: Part II
The game's been out for only a day and a half and already it's getting review-bombed on Metacritic. Apparently, it's for three reasons: first off, some parts of the game were leaked, so there's that. Also, some people weren't happy with violence in the game. Finally, the most likely reason is that the game has a shit ton of LGBT characters, and most of the review-bombed are rednecks or incels who know nothing about video games, and only hate the Last of Us because some characters are either gay or trans. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  19:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you're off the mark here. Whilst I'm sure there's plenty of the regular shit from capital G gamers, I think a bigger point is that the game has a few major flaws in it. The first is that the game tries to make the players feel bad for murder, but then forces them to commit murder anyway, and it drags this out far beyond the point where a player might be engaged with the murder on screen (cited by both Polygon and Kotaku in their reviews of TLOU2). In that regard, the game can be regarded as a flubbing of the same message that a game like Spec Ops: The Line sends (I have more thoughts on that, but I'll spare you this). The second is that the game's handling of LGBTQ characters is... dubious at best. Beyond the obvious hatred from the subsection of capital G gamers, I've seen criticism being leveled from the LGBTQ community that writes off the game as essentially misery porn (the game deadnames it's one trans character for hatred to the villain, bigotry is a thing for no other reason than "hey, humans are bigots sometimes" rather than making much of a point). Ultimately, I think the conclusion both Kotaku and Polygon reach is the best answer: The Last Of Us 2 demands that the player work themselves in a headspace that was prevalent back in 2013. For reference, in 2013 a lot of the video games coming out were moreso the "spunkgargleweewee" type of games that often placed the player in the dubiously heroic shoes of a US army soldier and then told them to kill a bunch of vaguely defined terrorists and constant backpatting that their actions were heroic. That trend went out of fashion during those years, with games like Spec Ops: The Line confronting the players actual actions in those games as not being heroic, and The Last of Us trying to make the players feel something for killing people. The problem is well... those types of games don't really exist anymore. Villains in modern games tend to be more explicitly defined as being evil rather than just saying "terrorists" and assuming that will be enough, "realistic" games about war nowadays mostly look to historical conflicts rather than current conflict (where defining an explicit good guy is a bit easier since hindsight being what it is), games about making you feel shit for killing frequently let you pursue peaceful options instead. The industry marched past the space that the Last of Us came out in, but the Last of Us 2 assumes that that didn't happen and just pretends the industry is back in 2013 again. 20:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Spunkgargleweewee"? You watch Zero Punctuation, too? Can't wait to see Yahtzee's review on this. Powerbomb (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't played the first game but my SO raves about it and is actually taking a day off work so she can play #2 Monday. I read some reviews and some summaries and it sounds like pornography for people who get erections from tragedy.  Hard pass-Hastur! (talk) 21:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - Yeah, I love ZP (and frankly, as of late anything The Escapist is producing, they've really turned the site around in a good way). 21:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

While waiting for ZP's Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7mKTItGVzw Here's his ZP from the first game, back in 2015. Powerbomb (talk) 01:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Jim's Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wt4Q6AnhLk Thunderclapper (talk) 12:58, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Not trying to sound stupid or stereotypical here but- Is it true that most Australians are die hard Vegemite fans?
A few times I have seen YouTube videos or internet articles talking about how Australians loving that Vegemite spread stuff. Hell one of the videos I made (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2Lv-eJmRQ) where I make the US steals Australia's Vegemite and a person commented,

As an Australian, I can confirm this

Just curious here. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 20:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think "fan" is too strong of a term to apply across the entire population. Vegemite is widely consumed and generally liked in Australia. Australians as a whole being cartoonishly obsessed with vegemite is comedic hyperbole. You utilized that hyperbole in your video, so that user responded in the same vein. 2600:1002:B101:76BB:7D10:5EA2:E41A:6207 (talk) 21:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I tried it. It's like marmite only it tastes even more like ear-wax. My Australian roommates in London would go ga-ga for it when it arrived in a care-package. For a few days. Then it stayed on the shelf untouched for months. It reminds me of Canadian maple syrup. Beloved...but how many people throw out every year or two a 10% used bottle/can? Shabi  DOO  22:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Tam Tam Slams and Sausage Sizzles are more Aussie than some poxy veggie spread. Get some VB (Vicars Blood) down ya, shear the Sheila and woo the sheep. It's the Fred Dagg way or the front will fall off. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ''Not at all like Marmite. What the cunt you been smoking?14.201.171.126 (talk) 07:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you eat it regularly, the mozzies will leave you alone. Strewth! Zontar (talk) 04:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as true freedom?
So I saw this program on Hulu called Hate Thy Neighbor and the guy spent time with those Sovereign Citizens and one of the things that they talked about is how they are free and not answering to some corporation or having to deal with licenses, etc and things like that. The program ended in them fishing and the guy telling the host that that is the freest you will be that day. Personally I don't think they are any freer living out of "the system" nor do I think they understand why we regulate the things that we do. We give up some freedoms so that everyone can have the basic stuff. Any society has that, even Hunter-Gatherer tribes in the past had that but on a smaller scale. If I lived like them I wouldn't consider that freedom because that means no movies, or games, or flying in airplanes, or a lot of other stuff that I am able to do by living in society. Sure I pay a price but personally I feel "free" in that I have options. If I choose to live apart from society I have less options available. But I don't think there is any "true freedom" because there is a cost to everything and a price to pay for it, there's no free lunch. Living in society means abiding by rules but gaining other things in return. Plus I would argue that they are "running" from the government in a sense so...... It just pops into my head whenever I hear someone talking about leaving the system and breaking free when there never was any freedom to begin with (I think). Either that or the concept of freedom is very complex.Machina (talk) 22:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I will start by saying that this goes into the concept called "Paradox of Tolerance" which deals in absolute freedom. As for the Paradox of Tolerance, if absolute tolerance existed then you would have to tolerate intolerance. Now to the main point- If absolute freedom existed then those who are "free" would start taking away from the freedom of others. Basically absolute freedom does not exist and never will. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 23:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * True freedom is only possible if you live alone and can give up dependence on others (which has staggering psychological implications for 99.99999% of us). Otherwise you are stuck behind the pressures of human compromise which utterly in no way can be avoided (even if you dominate and oppress others to achieve it). It is simply impossible to not make compromises with people, which inherently curtails your absolute freedoms.
 * In so called free "off grid" places, you are free to certainly do more things but you still must make tons of compromises. Without those being clearly stated or regulated it creates its own problems, uncertainty, conflict with neighbors prickling one another as they all exercise their freedoms but maintain relationships with some limited dependence on one other (economically and/or socially). Especially if it comes down to rule by neighborly pressure. When a serious conflict arises their freedoms will still be curtailed one way or another by another party exercising their "freedoms". Shabi  DOO  00:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I figured as much. They don't think we are free because we live in "the system" but personally I'm fine with things. We need regulation because we make a LOT of dangerous toys. Cars still kill thousands and we have licenses, seatbelts, speed limits, traffic lights, yet despite all of that it's still dangerous to drive than fly. People like them don't seem to grasp the bigger picture as to why we have these things in place. Humans are dangerous and given our large population right now we need limits in place for the good of all. They say that "the person most imprisoned is he who believes himself to be truly free" (or something like that). Which can be directed at them really. I did read the Sovereign Citizen page on here and even during the show they clearly have a warped sense of law and why we have restrictions in place. Then again these folks believed 9/11 was an inside job and other conspiracies sooo.......Machina (talk) 03:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sarte defined the difference between real true freedom and false freedom as having nothing to do with government or institutions or rules or laws. He argued that true freedom came from inside, the ability to recognize the rules that bind your actions as not being absolute transcendental laws of the universe, but you choosing to comply with the whims of others because of your fear of consequences, and that, if you could recognize that fact and make decisions fully informed of that and in defiance of those whims if you were willing to accept the consequences, you could experience true freedom.  Here's a comic about it.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You know, reading this again, this actually also clearly outlines why I'm such an asshole when I'm sure I'm right. I genuinely and fervently believe this idea of freedom.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 04:59, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I've got some bad news...
Remember Smoloko News, that Neo-Nazi website rallying against blacks, gays, women, Muslims, Asians, and in particular Jews? Apparently, they're back, as Neon Crusader, and still peddling the typical racism, but with bonus points for blaming vaccines for COVID-19. Also, it still looks like shit. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  00:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nazis cannot be bothered with learning proper programming skills. The lack of proper programming skills reminds me of the hilariously bad "game" Ethnic Cleansing. That sorry excuse for a game also suffers from terrible computer programming skills. Seems like a staple among racists.

Seriously though, Nazis don't seem to give up. So bent on spreading BS. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nazis are motivated by hate; and hate is a very strong motivation. 01:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you don't bother with them, you don't have a solution. I really should put something together on Daryl Davis; one of his main points is that as long as two enemies are talking, they aren't fighting. While there will be some people who are violent till the bitter end, there are many more who aren't; I'd rather talk than fight where possible. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 01:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dammit, it's always the (((juice))) promoting agendas like these: (watch the video, it's very funny.) — Jeh2ow Damn son!  19:51, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Damn, I always knew that Darkmatter was a good atheist youtuber, but I never knew he was this woke before. - X2.8morelikely The turtle moves! 05:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I fucking hate that so many of these fucking assholes are from Ohio. Our state is an embarrassment.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 22:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Weird defense of Columbus
What do y'all think about this? Is Columbus seen critically enough? Or is he demonized? I know that in progressive circles he is not very much liked - understandably so. Let me know what you think. 01:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The one thing he got a bit wrong is that Columbus did seriously underestimate Earth's circumference well beyond most of his contemporaries, as he was fairly inexperienced; the Portuguese refused to fund him because they knew he was wrong and that no ships then could sail anything close to what would have been necessary. That said, it's generally hard to disagree with his other points. Columbus came along at a time when people were broken on the wheel, drawn and quartered, and impaled, and when cat burning was a popular spectator sport, and landed on a continent where anywhere from 20-50% of the male population would have either been killed in warfare or murdered. People are quite violent by nature, his brutality was only remarkable to those personally having to deal with it. And the role of disease can't be overstated, they also led to later explorers thinking god had struck the natives down because the Christians were meant to inhabit these new lands. For a true master of horrors, look up Francisco Pizarro. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 07:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I used to be a Columbus hater until I saw this video a while ago and it did make me think about him more in world-historical context. I'm not a huge fan, he still comes off as kind of a dick and a guy obsessed with his own social status. But, I'll piggy back off of The Blade of the Northern Lights and "defend" Columbus.
 * 1) Slavery: As far as I know this was legal everywhere on Earth in 1492. The Iberian peninsula saw large numbers of people taken as slaves by Muslims under it's ~700 year Islamic rule. Large numbers of African and Arabic slaves were brought there in the middle ages. At one point something like 10% of Lisbon's population were African slaves brought by the Arab conquerors. Portugal had been independent for a while when Columbus made his voyage and were already buying slaves from the Kingdom of Congo and putting them to work on some islands in the Atlantic.
 * 2) Treatment of Taino/Spanish settlers. Columbus appears to have been a bad administrator and was briefly arrested for his prolific use of the death penalty. So the Spanish were already sort of thinking in very mildly humanitarian terms. However, he was out of jail in 6 weeks, although never given back his full powers. Once again, in a world where capital punishment, public beatings, and dismemberment are the norm for things we might not even punish today it's difficult for me to single out Columbus as some kind of maverick. I've never seen any credible breakdown of how many people he had killed but accusations of some kind of massive genocide are hard to believe. A recent paper I read put the island of Hispaniola's population at 300-500K on his arrival and it had collapsed by the year 1550 but Columbus was already dead by 1506. Bartolomé de las Casas was a kind of proto-humanitarian and his work criticizing the Spanish state "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies"(suppressed by the Spanish government for years) barely mentioned Columbus.
 * 3) Racism: Columbus encountered two distinct Caribbean peoples, the Arawak and the Taino. He remarked that the Arawak were cannibals and a very violent people. This seems to have been true. He praised the Taino saying "a better race there cannot be", he still put to death those who opposed Spanish crown rule. Most of the evidence of his brutality was actually against the Spanish. It's unclear anything he ever did to the natives was racially motivated.
 * Was Columbus medieval Hitler? Not really, but he was a conqueror, not just an explorer, and that comes with the baggage of actually having to conquer people. I'm undecided about his statues, I think the best argument against them in the USA is that he never actually set foot there. To The Blade of the Northern Lights point, Columbus was surpassingly wrong about the size of the Earth, despite being a reasonably learned veteran mariner. Still, if people like Genghis Khan and Tamerlane can have giant statues I guess we can let him have at least one to.
 * Random Columbus facts:
 * 1) No known portrait of him survives. The most famous one attribute to him vaguely resembles descriptions of him but it came after his death.
 * 2) The Earth is slightly pear-shaped, albeit not nearly as extreme as he thought it was.
 * 3) Columbus was born in Genoa, an independent Republic, but people have claimed he was Spanish, Polish, Portugese, and even Jewish.
 * 4) He made 4 trips to the New World.
 * 5) In the native Ligurian he spoke his real name was Cristoffa Corombo. Neo Stalinist (talk) 08:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, we can start with your first point. Slavery was illegal in many places in the world. Here in Sweden, it had been made illegal in 1335. For starters. Dendlai (talk) 13:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Slavery wasn't "illegal in many places in the world". It was still practiced in Congo, Angola, Ottoman Turkey, Russia, India, China, Thailand, Persia, Arabia, Japan, Korea, Mesoamerica etc. As for Sweden, a nation of trivial significance in 1492, they only criminalized slavery within their borders. Swedes could partake in the international trade until the mid 19th century. Neo Stalinist (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Colombus represents and is at the vanguard of imperialism and all the murder and disease that saw 9 out 10 native americans killed and the rest enslaved. 'defences' of the chap very much miss the point. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:51, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * First, second, third, fourth, and finally fifth. No I'm not back, I'm just giving you more context for the original video. 16:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes to all of that. On the other hand a directory called Good Guys who lived in the Fifteenth Century, would be a slim volume. I would also point out, defacing any statuary related to Columbus in any mobbed up city will be hazardous to your health.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Already back from retirement? That was fast! 17:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He just said he wasn't. Maybe read before you post. Powerbomb (talk) 07:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Columbus raped little Arawak girls and cut off the hands of slaves. Even the monarchy told him to tone down his brutality. HairlessCat (talk) 20:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Rather, he cut off the hands of Spanish people for doing so. The full quote rather clearly shows him disapproving of such things. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 22:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Citation needed. HairlessCat (talk) 23:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue in question comes from a letter Columbus wrote while imprisoned on a boat back to Castile. The whole piece is him arguing why his harsh use of punishment is justified. The letter can be found here [1 ] in it's original Spanish. For an English translation see here[2 ]. The exact paragraphs containing the reference towards girls is on page 378. I read the entire English letter(it's actually very boring). Columbus never mentions slaves, sex, concubines, prostitutes etc. He says that children as young as nine and ten are in demand and alludes to "dealers", but never claimed to have been complicit in any of it. It's fair to assume the Spanish were indeed buying slaves, even though the exact word is never used. But, the fairly extreme accusation "Columbus raped little Arawak girls and cut off the hands of slaves." can't be proven based on the letter, although a number of reputable websites have cited it as such.
 * Neo Stalinist (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/columbus-sex-slaves/ HairlessCat (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They cited the same (Spanish)letter I did. It actually doesn't say what they say it does. They actually did make a mistake.Neo Stalinist (talk) 13:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The content of the letter is pretty clear. Even if not, the fact he was arrested for brutality should be enough. HairlessCat (talk) 14:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the medieval Spanish is really quit confused in my view. Just running it through google translate lead to some "humorous" results. Regardless, I would recommend you read the English letter in it's entirety. Columbus claimed that after a sailing mission he came back to find "half of Espanola in revolt" as well as the natives against him. He mentions a man named Adrian who lead a rebellion against him and that he never wanted to use force, but would have done the same to his own brother. He later mentions that "I take my oath that a number of men have gone to the Indies who did not deserve water in the sight of God", as a criticism of the Spanish he was governing. Apparently a large number of vandals and opportunists were going to the new world, presumably they thought it was some kind of lawless frontier. There was clearly a lot of political intrigue going on, and it's not obvious who was lying. Columbus mentions problems with other prominent political figures in the Caribbean. I have no idea if Columbus was justified in putting down Adrian's rebellion as harshly s his opponents claim, but the Spanish crown appears to have sided with him, albeit in a qualified way(he was never given back full political power). As an amateur historical detective my best guess is that Columbus was a bad leader and that there was legitimate political chaos. Lacking the cool head to deal with it properly he just up and killed anyone who threatened public order. The Crown realized he was a better sailor than governor and let him off the hook.Neo Stalinist (talk) 15:23, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * P.S. I don't dispute the documented misdeeds of Columbus(his obsession with gold) but I do agree with the general point of the "Exaggerated Evil" video's argument. As a final word I would check out this piece here for a fair assessment of the man.[1 ]

|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaJDc85h3ME Have a counter-video on me. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you guys sure that Raven guy isn’t a troll?
I’m primarily a lurker here, but this guy keeps cooping people and challenging people to coop him, and since he arrived on the scene he’s managed to throw the entire wiki into HCM 0. Just sayin... Fawcett (talk) 00:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, we've all noticed Raven's unpleasantness. He started with some useful edits and helped improved a few articles. I hope he drops the bullshit and goes back to improving articles. It would be appreciated. Shabi  DOO  00:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, since you're a lurker I give you the benefit of the doubt. Two individuals attacked me since I've been here, dragging me into stupid edit disputes (see: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Godless_Raven/sandbox), harassing me verbally (see: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Godless_Raven/harassment) and being given a pass by moderators. We have screenshots on discord about how they plotted to silence me from the beginning because of my political beliefs. Now, if you think I am a troll, why did I spend my entire Sunday editing a page? (see: https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Social_democracy&action=history). Anyways, no, I am not a troll, I just am consistent with the guidelines. Also, I am pretty sure the mods don't want the drama to spill over saloon either.
 * He has productive mainspace edits, which is more than can be said of some of our nastier trolls like MarcusCicero-Hastur! (talk) 00:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the two individuals that kept stalking me around lancb'ed, I have been in peace for the whole day. I spend my entire day editing the Social Democracy page, I would appreciate criticism/feedback and amicable edits. After all, this is a collective project. 00:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm quite familiar with Oxyaena, and I'd say she was past due to lose her toolset. I suspect, based on behavioral evidence and things that I've seen her say on the wiki about herself, that she has paranoid schizophrenia, which would explain why why she is so block happy based on a "hunch." I'd guess the "hunch" is more like voices in her head, and no I'm not joking because as someone with mental health issues myself I know there is nothing funny about mental health issues. As for the others, I never thought AMG was a problematic editor, and GC is eh. To offer an analogy, GC puts me in the mind of parking enforcement: he's kind of a dick about certain things because that's his job, sometimes he tickets (blocks) people who should not be ticketed (blocked), but he's not a super dick going around beating people with a club for going over their meter limit (or belittling people over minor infractions on the wiki). While I think Oxy had a negative impact on the wiki (and I am not saying that to be cruel), I think GC's impact is neutral. I'm unfamiliar with the other person you mentioned on your page. Fawcett (talk) 00:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I wish I was occupied with this kind of drama instead of my drama at my workplace. It's so cute. Dogeatsdog (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * With what I have given so far, do you still think I am a troll? I appreciate the friendly response to my message nonetheless. :) 01:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're too new here to say. I do see some mainspace contributions though, which is a good sign. Fawcett (talk) 01:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well if you think GC is benign, your friend Nutty (from what I know) deeply despises the guy. If you want insight into how GC treats people, just check this single section: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User_talk:EK#Draft All I want is to be given a fair chance. Since the two problematic users lancb'ed, I had this whole Sunday in peace to edit stuff. I hope this continues. 01:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was trying to be nice for a change... Really GC is probably really a net-negative, but I don't think he is the type to go looking for a fight (unlike Oxy). GC is heavy with the block button, which appears to be why Nutty does not like him. Nutty is correct to challenge trigger happy admins. To throw in a random strawman for the hell of it, cops who shoot like Oxy and GC block are why Black Lives Matter protests are a thing. Fawcett (talk) 01:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not fair at all. GC was a dedicated contributor to this wiki for a long time and he made a lot of valuable contributions. It is completely unfair to target him because of his blocking policy. I am a serial blocker as well, from the past several years when the wiki was under attack from various racist vandals and trolls. If someone comes in here and registers a dozen inflammatory user names and starts blanking a dozen articles and replacing them with vile garbage, I unapologetically kickbanned the vandals and restored their damage. Forgive me for handing out infinite blocks to these assholes just like GC did. If the situation happens again I would do the same. I have moderated my blocking since the latest community discussion on the topic, and I believe that GC did the same. Your analysis of GC is rather unfair. Cosmikdebris (talk) 01:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Seconded, Cosmikdebris. And some of these people really need to stop dancing on graves...-Flandres (talk) 01:54, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed I think it's an entirely over the top description of GC and his departure is a loss for the wiki. Shabi DOO  02:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I exposed the bad behavior here, with evidence. RationalWiki:Chicken_coop Some people won't care and that's fine, but to any neutral observer with two eyeballs it's very clear who is the wrong person here. Anyhow, I don't want to fight since the two systemic problems on this website lancb'ed. Peace is finally here. 02:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Says the guy who made two passive aggressive user space pages shortly thereafter. And you really need to stop insulting GC. He is far better liked here than you and contributed far more.-Flandres (talk) 02:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Raven. If you think peace is here, you're in the wrong community. And dancing on the graves of departed editors like a fucking baby and obsessively compiling hate lists and tables and other wikishit isn't doing much for your standing in this community. Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, one to defend myself from accusations and the other to document the rampant abuse that happens on this website. It is hilarious how you go for the ad populum in an attempt to prove that he is not a bad person. No matter how popular X is, there is no relation to how shitty a person is. The evidence is there for anyone to see. I was in peace for quite a while (until you showed up). Hopefully GC and Oxy stay gone and maybe one day you will recognize how deeply wrong you were to make excuses for rampant abuse. Or maybe not, some people are just lost.  02:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A) You are not "calling out abuse," people are calling you out and you can't handle it. B) Why do hate "the mob" so much on a mobocracy run site? It would not be because this is a community project and consensus is almost always against you, would it?C) You are clearly not "at peace" considering you don't let sleeping dogs lie and dance on GC's grave when we have just proven this brings out popular anger. D) As usual you evade my point. I was not saying that whether his popularity was justified or not, I was saying he is more popular than you so when half the site thinks you are an asswipe maybe constantly mocking his memory is not the best idea.-Flandres (talk) 02:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * a) I can handle it, after all, I didn't lancb. I am still here, confronting lies and misinformation. b) I don't hate the mob, but I also don't care if the mob is okay with lying and appeasing harassers. The truth is not a democracy. c) I didn't mention any of their names until one of them came back today (so much for "retirement") and until this thread that quite explicitly targeted me. I spent my whole Sunday editing the Social Democracy article. Don't believe me? Check the logs. And as I said, I will state the facts even when there is a mob with pitchforks after me. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for saying things a medieval mob didn't like, so why would I shy away from stating the obvious online? d) If half the site thinks I am evil for proving things that that specific half doesn't like, tough luck. Again: Truth isn't a democracy. 02:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven is so shameless. It's helarious and sad. Shabi  DOO  02:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Thankfully User:Nutty Roux is compiling the data on how GC abused his sysop tools. It's right there, on Nutty Roux's userpage. Don't believe me, just click there. Not sure how the apologists will cope with it, though. 02:48, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No one gives a shit what Nutty says. Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "The eyes are useless when the mind is blind" 03:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that GC left. He did contribute a lot of good material. Newbies are mistaken that his departure is a good think. I'm also generally unimpressed by narrowly-focused editing patterns by admins, particularly in politics. This is a prelude to edit wars, coops, and LANCBs. Bongolian (talk) 03:28, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm also sorry. I think he worked long and hard, and maybe needs a rest for a while, before returning. Ariel31459 (talk) 04:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * GC left? That is sad, he was a good editor and person. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Does Joe Biden believe in anything? How much enthusiasm is there for him?
https://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQcuwoZmGc4 I recently spoke with some Democratic friends. Most are going to reluctantly vote for Joe, although they seem even more apathetic towards him than Hillary. I mentioned how Trump is a kook, but despite having been in and our of both major parties(as well as the Reform party in 2000) he has more or less been the same kook. Biden has switched around a lot, especially on issues sensitive towards racial politics(busing, prison, reparations) and general pandering to whatever hot button issue the Democrats seem to be on. Most of my friends recognize this, but admitted they were still voting for him anyway. Personally, I don't like either candidate and won't vote, I feel that in a democracy the right not to vote can be as important as the right to vote. Especially if you are unhappy with your options. Now that Trump has his dud of a rally in Oklahoma, how does everyone feel about this as "campaign season" starts to rev back up. I see very little enthusiasm and a lot of cynicism. Neo Stalinist (talk) 00:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter whether Biden believes anything or is genuine. It's either him or Trump (a fascist). Here is """neoliberal shill""" Noam Chomsky about this very subject:

If you are in a swing state, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ANYTHING (UN)HOLY, vote Biden. If you are in a red or blue state, STILL go to vote downballot (senators, representatives, governors, etc.) AND ballot initiatives. Don't let a fascist rule for another 4 years PLEASE. 00:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * TIL Noam Chomsky's still alive. I agree with the sentiment, too.  Trump is wrecking the country.  Getting rid of DACA, fighting trans rights?  It's easier for ivory tower leftists to sit on their principles but there are literally lives at stake here-Hastur! (talk)  00:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Trump is a "cook"? As in a line cook? ROTFL! Fawcett (talk) 01:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, an argument can be made that he's half baked, but... Kencolt (talk) 02:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops! Corrected!Neo Stalinist (talk) 01:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think you have to worry about your vote in November. I expect Trump to be crushed. It should be remembered that two thirds of the Congressional Black Caucus voted for the same Crime Bill that Biden voted for. It is perplexing to me that many people think Black supporters of Biden are somehow misguided. Looking at Trump, I think they got it right. As far as, what does Biden believe in, how about The Constitution? It's hard to find a Republican that does anymore.Ariel31459 (talk) 04:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Although I disaagree with that assessment, even if I did agree, let's not be complacent or risk being so. I think a lot of people in key states such as Wisconsin and Michigan felt Clinton would win anyway so they didn't come to vote. For a fact: the 3 key states that Clinton lost and handed Trump the election (MI, WI, PA) were lost by a total of 77K votes, when she won the popular vote by 3M. The former is a tiny number compared to the total amount of people who voted and the popular vote difference. Let's assume for the sake of pragmatism that every election is a close race so that we don't need to rely on luck to prevent Trump or another fascist in office for 4 years. Please. 12:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree with the need to not be complacent. However, it's those states that are the reason why the betting odds should be in Biden's favor at the moment. The RCP polls of polls for Biden are roughly +8 Michigan and +6 PA/Wisconsin. "A week in politics is a long time", of course. Regarding the OP, negative partisanship is going to be a heavy driver of this election, many people will not be voting for Joe Biden but against Donald Trump. It could be worse. In 1991 Louisiana had to chose between as governor. (Unofficial bumper stickers were made stating "vote for the crook, it's important") In this election, Biden is nowhere near Edwin Edwards. Trump, on the other hand, shares a *lot* in common with David Duke. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's really sad that a (former)klansman got almsot 40% of the vote as recently as 1991. Wish it were even closer to 0. Neo Stalinist (talk) 15:37, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Biden shares a "lot" in common with David Duke? Are they in real estate together, or what ever do you mean?Ariel31459 (talk) 19:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not Biden, Trump. Think the parallels are obvious to me -- Trump is not a KKK Grand Wizard, but is #1 with KKK Grand Wizards. Soundwave106 (talk) 19:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You got that right.Ariel31459 (talk) 21:11, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Just to clear things up
No, I don't have schizophrenia, no, I wouldn't remove everyone's rights if I wanted to (I had tech for over a year, you dicks), and no, I`m not unretired. Please don't start spreading false information about me and let it rest. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  04:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you want to let it rest maybe you should quit bringing it up, actually stay gone for awhile and stop reverting Raven. You bring attention to yourself - no one needs to do it because you're a constant drama queen all on your own. AceModerator 04:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven's political edits tend to be inflammatory shit. You don't want me to revert them? Fine. Allow Raven to spread misinformation then. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  08:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dude, your behaviour just got you sysoprevoked and nearly banned for awhile. You sure you want to keep going down this path? It’s not going to end well for you. Why don’t you just let other people deal with it? It’s not like you’re some kind of authority on the topic. You act like an excited first year poli sci student who thinks reading the cliff notes for Das Kapital makes them an expert. AceModerator 08:13, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxyaena and Comrade GC are either the same person or GC is her little bitch boy. They both promote far-left ideas and are very hostile to opposing views. Fucking snowflakes. Stay retired Oxy and don't return here. Even better stay off the internet for humanity's sake. Dumb bullying cunts. "EvErYThInG I DoN't LiKe Is a soMetHiNg illogical, aNd I'm a FaCT QuEeN".
 * Both of you, be a little respectful. Literally nobody deserves to be yelled at.--Delibirda the Annoying Grammar Nazi (talk) 08:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't you have anything better to do with your life other than throwing Temper Tantrums around? "Far-Left ideas", "User A & User B are the same", "snowflakes"...


 * "puts on thinking cap" Aren't you forgetting that both of them might be members of a secret cabal? Maybe one of them is a clone from the other? Or al of this could very well be a false flag, orchestrated by this evil chap. Or maybe both of them were here to push forward several hidden agenda's, given by their masters? Or someone else...? Or "they"? Or maybe... THEM??


 * See? I can act like a crank & moron too. Not that hard... Powerbomb (talk) 13:39, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yall should prob chill the fuck out. You have way more in common than not. Thanks for kicking fascist ass either way.05:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't give a shit if you have the diagnosis or not, you are paranoid, you are impulsive and unpredictable (other than your pattern of LANCB when you don't get your way), and you are delusional (I base that last part on accusations you have repeatedly made about others that turned out to be complete bullshit you pulled out of your ass). You can't just chalk that up to autism. I have autism myself, but your diagnosis really doesn't matter as far as RationalWiki is concerned, your actions do.
 * It almost sounds like you have a bone to pick with me, why's that? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  09:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See, that’s what I’m talking about. Anyone who criticizes you allegedly has a bone to pick with you, is harassing you, or is a sock of somebody. Have you ever considered someone might disagree with some of your actions without hating your guts? I don’t hate you. Fawcett (talk) 09:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't psychoanalyze me from the comfort of your armchair, you're not my doctor. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  10:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Dumbass lurker nosy BS
Hello everyone. I don’t really edit here very often, but I’ve had a few RW accounts over the years and have been seeing the drama. I know it’s not my business and I don’t really understand the depth of what’s happening but I’m kinda drunk/high so I guess I just thought I’d say to anyone it might be relevant to. If the wiki is causing you drama, making your feelings hurt, tiring you out, and just generally not being a nice place, I would absolutely suggest cutting it out your life for a time. RW genuinely ducked up my mental health back when I was editing as a teenager, and I thought I could never stop editing, no matter how much it fucking hurt to interact with that place at all. Now? I look at the wiki for a couple weeks every year and then forget about it. My life is so much better. So basically I’m just saying that. If this shit gets too much, leaving is absolutely a good choice. You can do it, and you’ll probably be happier. I just hope everyone works out their shit and the place goes back to one of its “Peaceful Periods”. Love you’ll, and sorry for this shit. 14.200.168.113 (talk) 07:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also I made my own private wiki on Miraheze that I use for fun and as a diary and to mess around with wiki shit. I think that’s a great alternative for anyone who wants to write, edit wikis, etc. without worrying about drama and shit. 14.200.168.113 (talk) 07:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

What's going on?
I am a bit confused. Has this wiki gone into Headless Chicken Mode?--Delibirda the Annoying Grammar Nazi (talk) 08:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, just some dumb shit from dumb people. S’ all good. AceModerator 08:40, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nowhere near it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:48, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you read RationalWiki:Headless Chicken Mode? According to that, the wiki is always in low level HCM. Fawcett (talk) 09:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm all for turning this website into a fascist autocracy. HairlessCat (talk) 13:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * some old discord drama was played out on the wiki between some power users, its basically over now. EK (talk) 14:26, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

If we go back into the past, a number of intelligent and capable individuals with differing viewpoints had one thing in common: they wanted to either vandalize CP or add scientific content. (From the viewpoint to those in CP there was no real difference between the two actions.)

After being ejected from CP many of these rather (often very confrontational) individuals ended up here. There were no community standards, no mods, no users who had been around for a while. The purpose, direction, editing style, audience, stance and everything else were not developed.

Unsurprisingly, the battles which followed would rage up and down the wiki for days. There was almost always some fight going on somewhere, and often more then one. They were stimulating and exhausting times; but the wiki was always an exciting place to hang out.

With the introduction of things like Community Standards, Mods and a clearer direction of the wiki things are nothing like the old HCM days. I kind of miss them - but I don't think they will be back.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

The Three Political Stooges

 * Donald Trump
 * Benjamin Netanyahu
 * Jair Bolsonaro

Think that is right. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What about Erdogan, Orban, Duterte, Salvini? 19:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Modi. HairlessCat (talk)
 * Macron, Merkel, Obama, Clinton, Bush..... — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Is Oxy really Mikey?
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wJt3pRY0w Ariel31459 (talk) 19:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMAWpKpPp4 HairlessCat (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Secondary pick for the Three Political Stooges we could make into a TV show:


 * Kim Jung-Un
 * Vladimir Putin
 * Xi Jinping --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 22:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Shinzo Abe
 * Putin. Just Putin. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  23:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Justin Bieber. He's also a political stooge! Shabi  DOO  00:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What political leaders do you people like? Neo Stalinist (talk) 02:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Pedro Sánchez, Jacinda Ardern , Bernie Sanders , Jagmeet Singh , Benoît Hamon , AMLO ... 02:03, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Wow, those illiberals at RationalWiki like radical leftist Bernie Sanders? More like Radicalwiki! Redwiki! 02:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bernie is a socdem 02:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ahern seems like she has a shred of dignity over other politicians. But in the end they are part of a larger political organization (a party or colaition), which is a political machine, which means they make scummy compromises for the good of the party (or the good of those at the top of the party). To think you'll ever find a politician who isn't a stooge (or any leader of any organization at that) is foolish. There are no "good" leaders of political parties. The nicest most admirable ones have still made many compromises that would dishearten you if you knew them. No good ones, just: "meh", "bad", "very bad", "hard core douche", "toxic-asshole", "monster", "satan-on-Earth". The best you can hope for is "meh". Perhaps Ahern is meh. Who knows if you aren't deeply involved in NZ politics and know things behind the scene. Shabi  DOO  02:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ahern seems like she has a shred of dignity over other politicians. But in the end they are part of a larger political organization (a party or colaition), which is a political machine, which means they make scummy compromises for the good of the party (or the good of those at the top of the party). To think you'll ever find a politician who isn't a stooge (or any leader of any organization at that) is foolish. There are no "good" leaders of political parties. The nicest most admirable ones have still made many compromises that would dishearten you if you knew them. No good ones, just: "meh", "bad", "very bad", "hard core douche", "toxic-asshole", "monster", "satan-on-Earth". The best you can hope for is "meh". Perhaps Ahern is meh. Who knows if you aren't deeply involved in NZ politics and know things behind the scene. Shabi  DOO  02:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you kiwi or is this some sort of teasing 02:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Reminder that there were six Stooges in all. Only Larry and Moe were active over the entire run. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 08:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Got a draft started for the asshole game company Electronic Arts or EA for short
Draft:Electronic Arts

The thorn in the gaming community. The King of Microtransactions and piss poor management! --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The article has to contain the Sims City fiasco. 00:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a draft I started about 30 minutes ago so there is plenty to do. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I heard a guy complaining about this today at work, I'm surprised it's a real thing. So here goes.  Is a microtransaction not an art?  Do not the children with accidental unbridled access to their parents' digital currency not understand ART?  Was Madden Football 64 not a LESSER ART for not acquiring NFL licensing, leaving teams to be boiled down to cities, colors, and parody names that were exactly the same names as the players rather than the height of art that is licensing proprietary logos and mascots?  Liquid AI?  Pufhaw, give me a LISCENSED TEAM NAME, that's my prerequisite.  Now the concern is that they're redressing the same old software with new team skins?
 * Fear of Missing Out is a powerful advertising feature in the age of information. Pre-purchase is bad for the consumer, but having a million indie games that cost five dollars or less is also FOMO for the big companies.  More people play games, explicitly more adults buy games, so more expendable income CAN go into games.  It's not a gamble, it's high mass appeal, high production, the bottom line will always be hit and, what WHAT?  There's more I can buy for just 5 dollars today? I have 5 dollars today, and fuck it, I'm already playing this game I'm not about to STOP playing it, or worse, play it to a degree that is less than it's full potential, MY full potential!
 * So there's this issue. Late Stage Capitalism.  And I've never really liked the Robocop line "I'd buy THAT for a dollar!" I always thought it was cartoonish within a cartoon world, except, well.  Look at how many people would buy THAT for a dollar. Myself occasionally included. Except for porn, which I think it was originally spoofing on?  Porn is insanely free now, what's left for us to buy?
 * It's just, as long as what most consumers demand is something familiar, EA doesn't really NEED to do something spectacular. Arcade games used to rip each other off and were based on the premise that no matter how good you are, you're going to have to pump a few more quarters in. I think a lot of publishers are re-discovering that mechanic. So way back in nobody's day, people would go to arcades, play games for quarters and go home not owning the games.  I really have a hard time saying microtransactions are antithetical to the idea of gaming.  Ownership of media, while often done poorly or opportunistically in the hands of large publishers, doesn't default to ownership by the consumer. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As I said on the talk page of the draft. I'm not sure how it fits into our mission.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, I think you're right, but what about the corporate excesses in the videogame industry as a whole? 10:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ummm - what about them?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:30, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree that, much as EA deserves to be mocked somewhere, they won't ever be a mainspace Rationalwiki article. We do have a "funspace" though where it could end up going. I also see that someone has made a crappy games Wiki and of course they are there. Soundwave106 (talk) 12:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A video game wiki would certainly be an appropriate place for such an article.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You buy the liability but you rent the asset. Lose/lose for the punter. And this is what children are growing up with; they are volunteers in a corporate bootlicker training program. You lick the boots, you get the loot.* see Ross agreeing with me here 51.6.140.82 (talk) 11:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * * Subject to a dice roll.
 * * Subject to a dice roll.

Are you going to do one on Activision, Ubisoft, Square Enix & Konami aswell? Or Randy Pitchford? Thunderclapper (talk) 13:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I seriously hope not - because deleting them for being off mission will take time and effort.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How is it not missional? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Given what I've heard from Pitchford, I'm not 100% sure if he isn't off mission (he has more on him on his channel)...Thunderclapper (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This would be missional, since it's related to Gamergate and all. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If related to GamerGate, then we probably need a page on Beamdog and the whole Baldur's Gate controversy which up until this day STILL receives hatred on the GOG forums (then again, most people on the GOG forums are Conspiracy twats...) Thunderclapper (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

If you can make a case for it clearly involving:

Then I'm all for it. But if the argument is : "Gamergate involved video games therefore vidoegames are missional" then I'm afraid I don't agree.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think our mission needs to be updated to cover social justice, but that's another issue entirely. My argument is that it covers exploitative corporations and their relationship with consumers, and if we can have articles on such obscure things as capitalist realism, then we can have articles on this. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * GamerGate attacked Beamdog, because they added a trans character to the first Baldur's Gate. I think this is being mentioned on the timeline? Thunderclapper (talk) 17:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The existence of articles which may not be missional does not justify others. If you feel that articles do not meet mission standards then the solution is to either to propose them for deletion or bring them into line with mission standards.  If you feel that the norms need to be expanded that is something you can bring up on Community Standards.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Gamergate kind of overlaps with the alt-right (authoritarianism) and crankery. This Wiki also documents a lot of equality issues (which is where Gamergate fits best), even though it's not explicitly mentioned in the mission. Due to the authoritarianism / fundamentalism areas explicitly mentioned, though, it's a natural fit (as both of these systems are noted for not only being unequal but exploiting it by design), and it would not be a big deal to include it directly in the mission IMHO.
 * EA's main problems as far as I'm aware are dubious employer practices and the controversial practice of turning games into gambling devices "microtransactions"... not as good of a fit. Neither fit the current focus of the wiki very well, unfortunately. As noted, I'm not opposed to an article in funspace having fun with EA, personally. Other Wikis have similar divisions with a focused main area, but other compartments to throw things that don't quite entirely fit with the main focus. I'll also note that there is no current Wikispace I'm aware of for documenting corporate maleficence, and I actually think a Wiki dedicated to just that might have a chance of being reasonably popular, for those computer folks who have some free time on their hands due to the current pandemic and all. :) Soundwave106 (talk) 17:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * EA isn't really missional. I think you'd get a better argument about Activision Blizzard if you really want to write stuff about a game company. Their mishandling of BlitzChung during the Hong Kong protests is 100% on mission. Maybe Riot Games as well since they actively are catering to white dudebros and their work culture is toxic as shit, especially to women and minorities. 17:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dev studio Voidpoint & the whole issue around their game "Ion Fury" ("OGay" & Fagbag", as well as several discord conversations that were screenshoted last year), deserve a page, imo. Thunderclapper (talk) 11:09, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Delete anarcho-syndicalism page
I have suggested to delete the anarcho-syndicalism page which is superfluous, does not fit the mission statement, has little to no content relevant to the mission and describes an ideology which is popular amongst leftie nerds but has little real life infrastructure. An democratic socialism would make more sense not only because of Bernie and Corbyn but because of the Pink Wave of SA in the 90s which saw a rebranding of socialism. Those interested in preserving the page, bring the discussion to the relevant talk page.Tuxer (talk) 09:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You are looking for RationalWiki:Articles for deletion. EK (talk) 11:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Bernie is a social democrat. I also think it's weird the Noam Chomsky article doesn't even describe him as an anarcho-syndicalist. HairlessCat (talk) 13:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As has been pointed out there is a process for proposing article deletion and initiating a vote. As I mentioned somewhere else we are are not "Anarchism Wiki. For that matter we are not "Left Wing Politics Wiki" either.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Added it on AfD.--Delibirda the Annoying Grammar Nazi (talk) 16:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Article on Christian Identity
Hey everyone, I was thinking of doing a pretty deep dive into the Christian Identity movement and updating that page. Obviously theres quite a bit of work to be done. ATM im compiling a reading list and trying to figure out what some sections could end up looking like. If anyone is interested in working on this with me that would be awesome!
 * I strongly encourage to include things such as the . 10:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks!

Any greek editor out there?
I wanted to expand the Fascism article by adding the hellenic flavor of fascism (aka metaxism), but I don't speak greek nor do I feel confident about adding historical content I am not familiar with; yet, I think it would be highly interesting to add metaxism to it. I got the idea from here:

Hit me up on my talk page if you are interested in it. 17:13, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As an aside "Kings & Generals" is one of my favorite YT channels and I recommend it strongly. Really great "blood 'n guts" history. I think my favorite series are on Tamerlane and the Spanish Conquest of the New World. Neo Stalinist (talk) 23:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Black Lies Matter
Anybody want to start an article on this guy? He's basically a Candace Owens type racist. https://www.google.com/search?q=taleeb+starkes&oq=tale&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j46j0j46j69i61j69i60l2.1279j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 * I might but holy shit this guy is nuts. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 02:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems like a minor crank. He has two books with very intentionally provocative titles. He's probably not worth a page. Neo Stalinist (talk) 23:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Any appeal for an archive bot?
Just curious. Pywikibot has an archiving option, I think I could make it work + I have the VPS for it, and it seems like all the current ones are down. Just want to make sure there's community interest in me bringing one up again. 19:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see an archiver working again. Perhaps bring this up on RationalWiki:Technical support instead. Someone might be able to explain what caused Pibot to fail, and whether a new attempt would likely survive the next update Tim Starling is working on. Bongolian (talk) 23:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * IIRC it had partially to do with Kazitor leaving and FCP semi-retiring. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  06:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It will survive. Worst case, I need to regenerate the family file. I spend the past day and evening of yesterday poking a bit through pywikibot's source, I feel this is something I can handle/understand. In any case, meet User:Inferno Bot. Named after the truly underrated Studio Trigger show Inferno Cop (English subbed), Inferno Bot will be doing archiving duties from now on and dishing out justice . It runs on my VPS and has been configured to check for talkpage archives every 6 hours. I've posted a few examples on how to quickly set it up on it's userpage, and it's running on User talk:The Crow. If you need help with setting up a page (or want something different than the defaults), feel free to bug me. Special thanks to for giving Inferno Bot the bot role so that his archiving doesn't interfere in the Recent Changes.  14:17, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Nightmarish Conservative Blog
This is horrific, and the followers are in deep hypnosis: https://www.quora.com/q/war-elephant HairlessCat (talk) 00:27, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This guy is absolutely insane. https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-folks-in-The-Elephants-in-the-Room-think-of-The-War-Donkey-and-vice-versa/answer/Jon-Davis-10 HairlessCat (talk) 00:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

This site needs some serious work
holy shit, i am going through the mess that is the biology part of this website and i am stunned by the generalized chaos, trying to fix it but goddamn 13:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A lot of this wiki’s articles are sucky. I’m currently overhauling the countries one by one because a lot of them stink. 20:27, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I will do my part then - but the biology articles instead. 20:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

One way to punish corrupt cops
If a cop kills or maims an unarmed, non-threatening civilian the cop should have to pay any restitution to the victim/victim's family out of pocket. Said corrupt cop would lose all financial assets along with prison time. I think that it would be effective. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Also detooth police unions since they'll do whatever they can to prevent accountability in the first place. 01:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * #DefundThePolice. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  01:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Why an I suspicious that the disconcerting Republican willingness to go along with BLM is really just another attempt at gutting a public employee union? Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 03:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Blood money is not justice. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I know I've asked this before, but why do US police carry guns? Is it for self-protection or to enforce obedience?  Because if it's for self-protection then any shooting of an unarmed man must be a homicide.  But if it's to enforce obedience then, logically, if someone doesn't obey you then presumably they would have the right to shoot them.  We see this in American cop shows all the time though - "Stop or I'll shoot!" - kind of thing.
 * I can't believe that's actually legal though. But I have read some Americans arguing something like it.  So how does it work?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * EDIT: It looks like I shouldn't get my information about the US from cop shows  Who would have thought it?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:54, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * i'd imagine police needing to be armed has a lot to do with with the population being legally armed to a very high degree. the us isnt the only place with armed police though. what would be the rational for those places? access to firearms easy, legal or otherwise? high violent crime rates? intimidation? AMassiveGay (talk) 15:19, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * indeed, it seems that armed police is the norm throughout the world. the uk is apparently almost unique for country its size and urbanisation for its police generally being unarmed. it is also notable that in the uk, the police themselves do not want to be armed, with 82% of them not wanting to be armed while the generally public, though not want armed police, the numbers for or against are a lot closer. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Police always needs to be a step ahead of a perpetrator and using a gun is justified against someone with a knife or other possible devices that can incapacitate the police. Probably not going to assume everyone has a gun but wouldn't be very good if the police without a gun faced against a charging machete wielder. 18:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * that kind of ring a little hollow, as knife is still a thing in the uk. only on rare occasions does this require an armed response - recent events in glasgow sadly one such incident AMassiveGay (talk) 18:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * i do see a need for armed police in the us, i might add. the proliferation of fire arms there ensures it. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, an armed police is necessary. If you check the police shootings in the U.S., most of them involve a firearm on the suspect's part, some involve knives, the unjustified ones can involve someone reaching for a waistband (though unarmed after getting shot); nearly all, justified or not, responded to shots being fired. I agree that knife incidents aren't anywhere near as common in the UK, and Glasglow's incident has a justified police shooting. I'm not sure how armed the police is in the UK and I don't know how often armed responses happen or if they're justified. 19:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Slatestar Codex
Keep an eye on the Slatestar Codex page, because a few days ago his reactionary blog was written about in the New York Times, and he has apparently been trying to edit his page for months to hide his receipts. There have already been multiple edits to the section on his views on Charles Murray and IQ, so the reactionaries may even already be winning the edit war. (I haven't checked.) A lot of his friends are petitioning the NYT not to reveal his full name, even though he is a public figure and has been writing highly charged and viral reactionary articles for many years.Douglasmurraytrumpkin (talk) 01:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I meant, check this page.

Douglasmurraytrumpkin (talk) 01:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm actually a little sympathetic to the idea of respecting privacy, and am not sure why the NYT reporter allegedly asked for his real name. Seems to add no value. However, something seems -- off? -- about this story (as in, all we've heard so far is one side, along with a lot of chatter from sides agreeing with SSC that coincidentally happen to usually disagree with the New York Times). One note: I am quite bemused that places like Hacker News -- the news hub of sorts of Silicon Valley, the culture that has enabled *much* worse doxxing to the masses, with software and social networks that throws privacy right out the window if they can sell your data to God knows who -- was Very Very Concerned about Slate Star Codex's "doxxing". Tee hee. Soundwave106 (talk) 02:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Scott's page is currently protected until tomorow. If some driveby troll appears, we'll just revert and protect it again. 15:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Copz
"The verdict The jury has found you guilty of being a redneck White bread, chicken shit motherfucker" "But wait, that's a lie! That's a god damn lie!" "Get him out of here!" "I want justice!" "Get him the fuck out my face!" "I want justice!" "Out, right now!" "Fuck you, you black motherfuckers!" Fuck the police Fuck the police Fuck the police HairlessCat (talk) 18:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Tulsa rally numbers real
THE MEDIA HAS BEEN LYING TO YOU. https://qr.ae/pNKUku HairlessCat (talk) 22:06, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Nextflix is offering the 13th, a documentary, for free on youtube
Shabi DOO  23:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Israeli police brutality is so much like a mirror of American police brutality
Obviously there was the killing of George Floyd here in the US. Now in Israeli the police killed an unarmed Palestinian teen with Autism. The manner of death was different but both were inspired by racism and both resulted in protests; although the protests in Israeli did not result in large scale riots. Come on, Israel has a Donald Trump clone as Prime Minister.

To make matters worse is the fact that fundies here in the US happily ignore Israeli police brutality like American police brutality. Also the arguments for the support of Palestinian oppression follow the same racist pattern oppression of African-Americans plus other minorities here in the US.

Yes this a vent about police brutality and oppression. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 02:18, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A better analogy would be Israeli police treatment of African Jews. It's a much closer comparison. Israeli security forces violence against Palestinians is a whole other level of brutality, indifference, lack of oversight or transparency and tacit government approval.   Shabi  DOO  03:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * (A bit derailed perhaps but) sadly in many countries there aren't any left-wing civil society as vibrant and as institutionalized as in the U.S. Donald Trump is the worst U.S. president of our lifetime and needs to be defeated this November at all costs, but keep in mind U.S. got itself so much better than the rest of the world where right-wing chauvinist nationalist populism is winning and marginalized populations have absolutely no chance of getting their voices heard. This is why I feel defeated talking about issues on Palestinians, it's a lost cause. Dogeatsdog (talk) 04:02, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you saying the US is a vibrantly institutionalised left wing civil society? Really? Shabi  DOO  05:52, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The US has, especially in comparison many countries in Asia or the Middle East. If you take a look at democratic counties in Asia like Japan, Indonesia, India, and Israel, "left" is pretty much dead. Mind you I'm by no means saying "the left in the US is enough". Dogeatsdog (talk) 07:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Institutionalized leftism might be dead in India, but India itself has Maoist guerrilla armies aplenty. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  09:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Now what are their chances of overthrowing the Modi government?-Flandres (talk) 09:42, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Slim to none, obviously, but in the areas they operate they maintain a sizable of amount territory and influence and have been a thorn in the side of the Indian authorities for decades. Your attempted "gotcha" argument is none of the sort. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  09:47, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, that is such an amazing set of triumphs. They can brag about bothering the Indian government whilst the BJP just has to content itself with political victories that actually matter. As is all too common, "can you achieve success" is to much to ask from a bunch of leftist guerrillas-you have to "have some perspective" which means "be willing to make excuses for their inadequacy".-Flandres (talk) 09:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * First off, if you want me to be less "toxic," don't be so much of a hostile dick to me, it's a two way street, and two, Maoists have a theory called protracted people's war anyways. Note that I am not a Maoist. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  10:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * A) do note I am note part of the group currently finding fault in your behavior. B) "Protracted People's War" means nothing if the Naxalites are not in a position to win either now or the foreseeable future, it's just an excuse to explain why they have little chances of achieving their goals("It may look bad now, but we will magically get it done eventually if you just keep doing what we say!"). Thus, Dogeatsdogs original point of there being no Left Leaning movement capable of standing up to the Modi government stands.-Flandres (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In India as a whole? Sure, but in Northeast India, where they've held out for fifty years and counting? No. Maoist doctrine does seem to just create endless forever wars, and not any winning strategy. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  10:31, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's actually sort of the issue, though, most of the "left" in Asia that I know of is authoritarian oriented left-wing, and chances are IMHO pretty good any rebel group falls under this wing. Furthermore, a lot of the Asian "communist" parties that actually *are* ruling these days have followed China's lead and drifted more towards quasi-state capitalism-oriented authoritarianism (one actually could make an argument that they are closer to that old 1930s European fascism style than Marx these days, methinks -- ah, the joys of power corrupting). The examples that contradict this rule I can think of are small (eg Nepal and their communist parties, which I believe is the only democratically elected communist party in the world in power at the moment). Soundwave106 (talk) 13:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah communists sure don't like democracy for the most part. It is why democratic socialists should def distance themselves from the violent communist mob types. 14:25, 24 June 2020 (UTC) I regret commenting here. 17:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're talking out of your ass again. How do us vaguely defined "communists" not "like" democracy? "Violent communist mob types." Really? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  15:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Raven is mixing up MLs with Communists (like fucking 90% of the internet). I suggest he reads our own page on Communism for a quick second to get an idea of what he's talking about. 15:58, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I swear probably the most annoying thing about being a commie is getting conflated with MLs, I fucking hate MLs. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's one thing to compare the state of US politics with countries in the non-developed world. But within the developed world (most of Europe, Canada, NZ, Aus) would not even recognize the United States by what they consider political principles on the left side of the spectrum of the 21st century. The democrat party resembles something more of a centrist or even centre-right party in these countries. You don't even have centralized-medicare and it still meets fierce resistance. In most parts of the country the governments do next to nothing for the homeless, offer paltry services for those needing social services. Taxes are low. Disparity in incomes is astronomical. Trade union activity is extremely low. Rep and Dem have stripped away regulations protecting labor rights and the environment for decades. Minimum wage is obscenely low in some states. You still have the death penalty. Education is extremely costly. Of course there have been some inroads made at a national level and some states are a whole lot better than others. But the very fact that the only presidential candidate offering a progressive platform that even remotely approaches that most of Western Europe and Canada has already had implemented for decades, didn't even win the primaries and is considered too extreme even for members of the most left party (the democrats) tells me that the U.S. as of now is not a particularly vibrant leftist civil society. Perhaps in pockets of the country.  Shabi  DOO  16:49, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The closest developed nation parallel might be Japan, which as I understand it doesn't have a very strong "hard left" party either. Just the LDP (big tent center right) and a smattering of center left big tent parties dominate. However, this comparison is sort of unfair, because the Republican party has devolved into more or less a populist nationalist party ala "Trumpism" that Japan doesn't really have right now (yes, Shinzo Abe flies a *bit* of the nationalism flag, but it isn't a huge defining feature from what I know). The nationalism party is of a type that is more typically found ruling in "developing" nations (see India, Philippines, Hungary, Turkey, etc. etc.), though some parties have popped up of this sort in developed European nations as well (particularly Italy).
 * That being said I personally think the current two-party system hides some major divisions, and if we were parliamentary, we too would probably have at least 4 distinct parties (Clinton-esque center-left and/or GW Bush-esque center-right, depending on whether or not the two decide to "big tent"; progressives; Fox News populists), with maybe a small libertarian party and green party too. The progressive movement is a lot stronger these days than it was in 1990, when hard left policies generally was dead. Soundwave106 (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you implying Bush 43 was center-right?-Flandres (talk) 17:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not an unreasonable statement. "Center-right" has about as much blood on their hands as any ideology in history.  Regardless of where you place him on a left-right spectrum, undeniably he was neoconservative and neoliberal in policy.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:01, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact that neocons and neolibs can be considered "centrist" and not extremist shows how fucked up American politics are today. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I am certain I will regret commenting again, but neoliberalism is de facto centrist according to certain political scientists. Read this: https://www.academia.edu/26978017/After_The_Neoliberals_A_New_Middle_Way_for_Britain_and_America_Rescuing_Native_Workers_and_Jumpstarting_the_Economy 18:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. In a predominantly neoliberal world order, neoliberalism becomes almost definitionally centrist, in a way.  But if you adhere that much to the status quo, I think it's also fair to call it a kind of conservatism.  "Center right" then becomes a reasonable way to describe a lot of ideologies I'd personally say are actually pretty far right on deep recurring social issues.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Japan is also handling right wing shit a bit better due to well, the East and Wests relationships with collectivism vs individualism. Japan being more collectively focused means that the idea of exploiting the poorer is less likely (although they do have major issues with overworking employees on the other hand due to that idea). That isn't to say that there's major issues with the country (LGBTQ+ rights are from what I know below abysmal and there's a very high authoritarianism/the police can do no wrong issue), but it probably would explain why it doesn't really "need" a further left party, since the common things associated with the Left in the West (healthcare, workers rights) are already somewhat codified due to that sense of collectivism. Keep in mind that far left thoughts, if I'm being frank are just as small as the extreme conservatives and libertarians whacko's they so much hate (for good reason of course, fuck far righties). Most people tend to exhibit that more centered area of the political spectrum, with (Neo)Liberalism and Social Democracy being probably the most popular ideologies held when you get down to it. A good reference to always keep in mind for this is that in 2018, the DSA lost most of it's running candidates, and their only victories were against incumbent Democrats and in one case they were incumbents themselves. Their 2020 record isn't going a lot better from what little I've heard of it, with AOC being their only "big win" (which I think moreso speaks of just her popularity amongst progressives in general rather than her being a DSA member specifically, given how in 2018 she from what I know unseated a complete dud of a senator) when it comes to the primaries and their other two wins in the primaries seem to once again be against incumbent Democrats. 19:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See, now I regret it. It doesn't matter what evidence I post that the response is "actually you are really right-wing". No, it's just political science. But okay, do what you wish with whatever evidence or lack thereof. jfc 19:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't even think Japan is a particularly good comparison. Even under what is considered a "conservative government" by Japanese standards they've implemented generous social assistance, full medicare, cheap post-secondary eduction, high taxes, strong labor protections and a much higher redistribution of income than the US (far far higher). And most of these programs have been implemented for decades. The Liberal Democratic Party's platform (a conservative party) is more progressive than Bernie Sander's platform was.  Shabi  DOO  19:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah the US is a big skew to the right when it comes to political positions it seems. 19:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting perspective. I'll think about it. But this conversation started off in the context of treatment of minority groups. Japan, while not as bad as India or Israel, also has its fair share of issues on Koreans and Ainu people. And you can't say the current government is "more progressive than Bernie Sanders" on that regard. Dogeatsdog (talk) 02:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Japan, along with all of Europe and Canada have many problems they aren't dealing with. Japan, in addition to their problems with indigenous people and especially racism towards Korean and Persian immigrants, also has a fairly low minimum wage. And it has enormous corporate welfare. It also has a very high level of corruption for a developed country. Having said this is lightyears ahead of America on a long list of so called "leftist" issues. I'm simply responding to your claim that America is a vigorous leftist civil society. It certainly doesn't remotely look that way to the rest of the developed world. America is a stellar outlier on so many issues traditionally associated with leftist platforms. Shabi  DOO  03:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I said America has a vigorous leftist civil society (check my previous comments, confusing is and has can create completely different conclusions). This is a big positive in the long run. Who knows what kind of sociopolitical issues arise in the next one hundred years, and the right wing populist government has never been the first to accommodate changes. It takes grassroots, activists, and academics to incite them. Dogeatsdog (talk) 06:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * To be honest, there are actually a few left oriented movements that America has been front and center. The push for gay marriage rights I believe actually originally started in America in the early 1970s, for instance, with Berkeley California actually passing a domestic partnership law all the way back in 1984. Sure, the right wing fought all the way (and probably would still be fighting the dying war would it not be for Anthony Kennedy, although not for *too* long, as since 2010, most Americans have supported gay marriage). Consequentially nationally the US was behind several other nations in legalizing same sex marriage. But you can't say there wasn't a big push to legalize it from certain grassroot areas of America for a *long* time. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes this is what I'm talking about, I would add "topple the slave owner/colonialist statue" thing too, albeit it's still controversial. Academic debates on race relations based in the US is also extremely interesting to follow. Dogeatsdog (talk) 14:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Gay sex was decriminalized in several European countries before one single state (Illinois) decriminalized it in 1968. President Obama when in power (in America's most progressive elected party) was unsure on the topic. In 1998 two US states passed constitutional amendments against same-sex marriage. This was years after several countries passed same-sex partner laws. In the coming years the Netherlands, Canada, Belgium, Spain, Portgual, South Africa, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Ireland (and many more) enacted same-sex marriage laws, almost all of them through national government legislation and a few through popular referendums. America joined the game quite late (at a national level, yes some states had legalized it by then) and only because the supreme court forced it with several states trying to sabotage the process of getting licenses. Not because there was overwhelming popular demand nor by a government successfully legislating it. Indeed, some (though certainly not all) gay rights were inspired by movements out of New York and San Francisco but gay rights but there was no small impetus of change in cities like London, Paris and Berlin. There is no doubt that the gay rights movements owe a lot to the hard work of activists from the United States and that they were pioneers in some cases, but I would hardly call America "leading the way" in the implementation of these changes. Shabi  DOO  15:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree that overall America leans well more conservative, quite so compared to some European countries, and especially so in the past. I guess the point was more to say don't ignore the pockets of left-wing activism in the United States, they exist, sometimes they are the fire-starters for an idea even. In general, since America has actually been slowly trending (in a polarized manner, granted) towards the left socially, the ideas that come from this field tend to be more worth exploring than whatever conspiracy the Donald Trump QAnon crowd has latched onto this month. (More than ever these days, conservative intellectualism has all but disappeared and "conservative activism" these days is often just reactionary populist Luddite bullshit.) Soundwave106 (talk) 15:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Your big fucking hurt is that someone dares to call you right wing when your ideology is rabidly pro status quo? Jesus.  Don't be such a baby.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This entire argument is like the situation with people ignoring police brutality and civil rights violations. Some ideological people want to keep the status quo so bad that they will do so at the cost of others. The status quo will eventually change and we all have to be part of that change. many things you say are leaning towards the right end of the political spectrum. Each time I see one of your comments all I can see in right-wing. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess I am a conservative now. 20:01, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean, if you self identify as a neoliberal, yeah? Kinda?  You always were?  It's not a far-right ideology, but it certainly lacks any ideas that could be called meaningfully progressive besides a vague dislike of strict paleoconservative dogma.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:32, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't self identify as a neoliberal, but even if I did, that doesn't make neoliberalism anything but centrist. I guess if you are a communist or some other far-left type you might think that neoliberalism is on the right-wing, except it doesn't because that's not how political science works. 03:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Centrism only means the political center of whatever the current world order is, neoliberalism is the current world order, therefore neoliberalism is centrist. It says nothing about it's position on the ideological compass. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  05:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I am having a hard time correlating police violence to martial tactics to imperialist values. Maybe if we had some kind of analogue, things could read easier?  Not suggesting a 1 to 1. but damn, y'all need it to be a 1 to 1, huh? 05:17, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Tariffs
Starting Monday, anything I might ever have to ship out to Russia, China, or Venezuela has to have extra documents, but not like, extra special documents, just the same documents high value shipments would need for any other country. An EEI filing, every country besides China, Russia, and Venezuela gets a low value exemption, but if it's a high value shipment, over 2500 USD, it needs an EEI filing.  But apparently NO LONGER, ANY SHIPMENT TO CHINA OR RUSSIA NEEDS AN EEI, NO EXEMPTIONS, and this kinda freaked my accounting team out. From my perspective, we already do this constantly. Like, why only these 3 countries? Could it be they are the boogeymen? Filing an EEI is... probably hard your first time if you don't know what the fuck you're shipping or where to find your tariff codes, but these new limits are not ending any high value shipping, it's only complicating low value shipping, I don't know what kind of threat this is supposed to pose to these boogeymen countries, it certainly doesn't halt trade. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Being said, I'm piecing some things I saw today together here, it's probably a bad time to buy illicit drugs off the dark web, and I did see on r/buttcoin that the bitcoin forums are going down next month. Some dare call it CONSPIRACY.  But, really, I think it's probably just petty opaque wrestling.  Nobody gets hurt except the Etsy artists, so nobody in power gets too offended. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Tariffs are fucking evil, like really, they make life hell for the average citizen by restricting essential supplies, and are used to coerce third world countries to do the first world's bullying. It's just another tool imperialists have in their repertoire. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  06:30, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 13:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy might be thinking of international trade sanctions. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As an American, I think we definitely need to repatriate industries not only vital to the military but also vital to the economy. What if Red China decides to cut off shipments of cell phones, tablets, or flatscreen monitors in response to a real or imagined slight?  We can't allow them to hold us hostage in any way.  While they do most of the manufacturing we have handed them that power.  Tariffs are vital for many reasons and this is one. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 20:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That might be a bit difficult though since much of the tech industry relies on raw materials that aren’t available in the US. To clarify, I think you’re right about the need, but I just think the solution will be a lot harder to reach. 20:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * thy also rely upon cheap labour. if you think iphones are expensive now...AMassiveGay (talk) 08:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sanctions should be classified in war crimes definitions. Sanctioning medicine is nutso bonkers strong-arm nonsense.  I am willing to drop my whole point to say that.  Anyhow, I've noticed a thing, with the new USMCA agreement, on the terms of "forced labor/"  Woof, they've updated these pages to have flags up top, but mostly what I've gathered is that it is illegal to IMPORT goods created by forced labor, which includes prison labor, child labor, but not VOLUNTARY labor, but not any enforcement on EXPORT goods created by farced labor.  On top of that, there's a 3 month grace period to export forced labor goods, nothing on where to export them.  Like, you either prove the goods aren't forced labor from Mexico or Canada, or you export them to anywhere you want as long as it isn't the US.  What kind of prison/industrial complex can't prove that?  I'm probably wrong, but this seems like a loophole for brokering anything that falls under the "forced labor" definition.  As such, you'll just have to take my word on this, as a lot of these .gov resources have been re-worked and re-branded since I've been looking at them.  I'm not going to fuck with it, I don't even know how I'd begin to care.  But I've seen it. Bigfoot shit. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Starman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpLw8VW-R7I I have to admit, JMS' Starman comic run was a great series, it really pulled my heartstrings. Anyways, here's some David Bowie. Enjoy. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  01:41, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Legend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhhEHuChFck HairlessCat (talk) 02:28, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Inquisition
Be sure to check out RationalWiki:Chicken_coop. I am at trial for denouncing the blatant corruption of User:GrammarCommie and now I am being put on trial merely for upholding the rules of the website. 19:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Your proof of corruption is what exactly? I have been on the wiki for 7 years and nothing he has done is not corrupt. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 20:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think you know what you just wrote there. 20:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think you know what actual "corruption" is.-Flandres (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK harasser. GR (talk) 21:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I know what I put. GrammarCommie is a good person. I certainly never seen any corruption from GC. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 23:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Um... the phrase "nothing he has done is not corrupt" implies that everything he has done is corrupt-- that he's utterly corrupt. Possibly one of the worst uses of a double negative I have read in a while, and one that I've heard used before to mean "utterly corrupt" at that.  So, yeah, you kinda didn't know what you put after all. Kencolt (talk) 02:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the most amusing thing about this whole ordeal was that I wasn't even aware of it until halfway through. I was busy playing Stellaris at the time. 02:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Nuts, now I see the typo I made. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:25, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

How accurate is this about "Controlling money"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQUhJTxK5mA&t=224s

I don't know much about economics and I know there is an AWFUL lot of stuff out there but this seems to border on some level of conspiracy theory (given the nature of the quotes from the people they list).Machina (talk) 02:32, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not going to watch the full video but the quote you link to in the video refers to the Jekyll Island Club meeting of a few big wigs that was a small point in the creation of the Federal Reserve. Back in the old days especially, there were a lot of high-society exclusive clubs and the like for high-society people for them to informally chat and sometimes get work done too. Conspiracy theorists have taken advantage of the exclusive, "hush-hush" (not really, but hey) nature of these clubs, over-emphasizing these meetings so that they can promote simplistic New World Order type theories. In 1994, used this meeting to create a simplistic, Hollywood style conspiracy theory with the Fed as a background in a book called The Creature From Jekyll Island. This is similar to how conspiracies theorists over-emphasize the Bohemian Grove's role in the Manhattan Project: it's over-reducing a multi-faceted creation to one simple meeting just so you can oogie-boogie over the big-wigs. There is a *lot* one can say about the Federal Reserve, but the chances of bullshit like "Rothschild" appearing in a video like this are way too high for one to go further. Soundwave106 (talk) 18:15, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

The US will have a 51st state (not a joke)
https://news.yahoo.com/51st-state-us-house-votes-washington-dc-statehood-163306895.html

This is an interesting political development. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:39, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * EDIT: I misread. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Why this region and not northern California, or Puerto Rico? They seem more worthy candidates and this is only being done to get more blue votes.108.208.14.123 (talk) 14:36, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Because the District is a distinct polity for which there is a greater chance of becoming a state than Puerto Rico, for various reasons. Northern California cannot lawfully secede and it would be to the state itself, not Congress, to divide it, though admitting it to the union would be a federal issue. Nutty Roux (talk) 15:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Puerto Rico should also be given the option for independence. 16:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Puerto Rico has had several referenda where that was an option. Puerto Ricans tend to favor either maintaining the present arrangement or statehood. Independence tends to poll about 1%. As for Washington DC, it was made specifically so that the federal government's business would not be subject to state complications. The Constitution specifies that the capital of the US should be in a non-state district under the direct control of the federal government. Changing that would require a constitutional amendment. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Country Roads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrEljMfXYo RIP John Denver, gone but not forgotten. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:41, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What she said. Scream!! (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

https://youtu.be/8ScFU0UxKWA keep up the good fight, Oxy.

Thought Criminal (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If nothing else, John Denver was probably the most effective of the 3 who testified in the PMRC hearings; have to give him some serious credit for helping put a lid on their nonsense. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 02:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I looked it up and you're right: Thought Criminal (talk) 08:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC) https://youtu.be/VgSjjD6rRu4

https://youtu.be/GLxcapShSrM
 * I see you John Denver at the PMRC and raise you F Zappa with smart 'do and shiny new suit at the PMRC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAF8Vu8G0w Cardinal Chang (talk) 23:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC) And now to take the topic in a different direction. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2020 (UTC) https://youtu.be/u1_dy1EmV6w

Myths We tell ourselves
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26600887/fpart/1/vc/1

Mostly referring to the first post on the thread, not the part about voyaging which is false (since some of our ancestors came on a land bridge) the second part about thoughts.Machina (talk) 01:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * So, psychedelics are fine in my book, I haven't done them in over a year. There's a lot of new research saying they are really good for therapeutic reasons with mental trauma, and I'm actually fine with that, because they don't show addiction rates like opiates.  But when I do psychedelics I do them to get spaced-out-dimension-shift-ego-death-fucked-up.  So, on the topic of horizons and what we can perceive, GLADLY ignoring the imperialism (which we probably shouldn't), communication is a tricky thing.  I think we talked about, or at least ignored each other, the Buddhist parable of the tiger and the strawberry.  Picture the person hanging from the cliff, I will too.  It's not the same person.  Right there, in this moment of miscommunication, we are also both thinking about the same story.  We would be staring at two horizons.  If I were so smug as to say you are looking at the same horizon I am, well, I'd have to back that up.  I think we've both perceived a thing within the strawberry and tiger story.  You'll have to forgive me for saying, no, I don't think this means you or I are part of a larger intention, we've just been posting on the same talkpage.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Umm.....what does that have to do with what the first post is getting at?Machina (talk) 18:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC) Machina (talk) 23:31, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh. my bad, thought you were reading the same thing I was. Can you define your question a little more?
 * Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean, if everything is thought, can you help define randomness or decision? Just Look At It isn't really compelling.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And, mercy, I assumed this was you doing your old thing. I'm really sorry, I have seen you grow, I just kinda expected something else.  You got me, you didn't ask a question.  Forgive me for assuming your post was a question, I read it wrong, and I am the ass here.   I would like to not be such an ass, so I have to ask, if there is no question, what are you saying? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

July: The month I literally envy the deaf
Me having Autism and mental illness hearing the loud noises causes either a sensory overload or severe hallucinations. Sometimes I actually prayed to a God that probably does not exist to go deaf for a month. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I have misophonia and have been driven to panic attacks many times by clicking or banging noises. The worst is when people are chewing.  The sound of a dishwasher or clothes dryer used to be the worst, but I have found some coping mechanisms.  I had an EEG done and it found that my brain had a deficiency in producing certain brain wave frequencies.  After receiving training designed to strengthen those areas of my brain, I have been able to cope much better than I was before.  I dont know if your situation is similar, but hopefully you will be able to find a way to overcome it.  I feel your pain.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fireworks going off in my range too. I understand fireworks for little kids, like wow, and cool if you can make them, I believe it's an art, but living with the mindset that "big bangs go boom with colors" is, a little frustrating...  Like trying to justify why people like Transformers movies.  They just do, they aren't doing it to piss you off, they just have to do it.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There are some very good ear plugs these days. You may have to try a few different kinds to see what fits you comfortably, but that sounds like it may be worthwhile. And some people dare to be loud.192․168․1․42 (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I use wax and silicon ear plugs (the kind that come in little balls that you can mould). Some people don't like them but they are extremely effective for sleeping in a noisy environment (Madrid is a very noisy environment). Mixed with noise cancelling headphones, even on the metro or a plane the sound reduction is extreme. Don't confuse them with the non-mouldable silicon earplugs.  Shabi  DOO  10:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * My dog used to have a thundershirt for that sort of thing. HairlessCat (talk) 19:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually heard a little bit about fireworks that I didn't know today. Namely, the names of the fireworks that are so big and bad that they set car alarms off.  Apparently they have to change the names every year because every state but Missouri is looking out for them?  Sounds made up, like pot names.  But this guy knew each one and each name, and I know he wasn't making it up, and he said he sold most of them that he got from Missouri.  I-29 in MO has fireworks warehouses.  Not tents, the buildings don't go up and down with the seasons.  Actual huge warehouses that open and close with the seasons.  Like dispensaries, but for straight dickheads who want to make the biggest booms.
 * I worked on homemade cherry bombs with some friends, shotgun powder and a wick in a tightly taped ping-pong ball, we didn't get any results. Just bigger fizzle.  We made potato cannons instead, very dangerous, but not difficult.  In retrospect, I'm a little amazed Home Depot employees didn't flag us, a group of teenagers with no adult buying very specific PVC parts and grill igniters.  I mean, the only thing we could have blown our cover any more would  be asking for potatoes and hairspray. Don't do it, you can blow your cap and really hurt yourself or other people, and it's not funny to shoot it at people. Pre-fab really dangerous shit to blow up, where is the creativity, where is the respect?  I have an aunt who has been a nurse for a long time.  No joke, one year she said she got a guy in, and she was laughing the whole time so hard she was crying, who had been hit in the nuts with an artillery shell.  On her account, he was moaning "My nuts, man.  My nuts."  as he was being wheeled on a gurney through emergency.  Described the scrotum as the size of a grapefruit.  Woof.
 * Fireworks are not scary, they are meant to surprise and delight. I've been there.  Enjoy your fireworks, do not be the guy who is so confident that fireworks aren't dangerous that you artillery shell your balls.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

This is bizarre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6UvUlBpEEk&feature=emb_logo Let me know your thoughts on this. HairlessCat (talk) 18:00, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems to either be a strange video about eating lots of "clean" protein for the purpose of bodybuilding, or a warning about how steroids can make one over-aggressive on a simple beach walk. I can't tell which. Soundwave106 (talk) 18:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * its none of that, its a skit. kali muscle is a very popular personality amongst youtube fitness channels, which is a, lets say, mixed bag to begin. as such your milage may vary on his content, and on his dubious supplements which a youtube fitness celeb he of course sells. theres a lot worse out there AMassiveGay (talk) 21:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thoughts: I'm not going to waste my time watching it; judging just from the preview it's the typical black-and-white, "forbidden fruit" thinking that's at the core of basically every "fad diet". Some foods are less healthy than others. That means you should eat them less, if you want to improve your health. "Don't eat this ever" is wrong and stupid and counterproductive thinking. I've heard of this guy a couple times and maybe he's not being totally serious but whatever. (The title, at least, is obviously clickbait.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Would it be accurate to apply the Paradox of Tolerance with the concept of Absolute Freedom
With the Paradox of Tolerance, it deals in absolutes and creates the problem where tolerating intolerance would void tolerance.

Absolute Freedom would end up allowing one to violate the freedom of another thus voiding absolute freedom.

Seems like the Paradox of Tolerance applies to Absolute Freedom. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:59, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Absolute Freedom" isn't a term of art that I know of. nor is it listed in the encyclopedia of philosophy.  As such you're going to have to be a lot more clear about what you mean by "Absolute Freedom".    ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolute freedom, in terms of absolutely no restrictions on what you do...is only possible if you live alone on a dessert island or a remote cave. Absolute freedom, as far as I remember, is not a concept I ever came across in philosophy except when connected with the concept of "being authentic" which is a different kind of freedom than you are thinking of. The paradox of tolerance isn't a particularly menacing one. Yes, the problem of tolerance is related to freedom (like limiting someone being offensive, prejudicial, discriminatory, limting etc) but how get to "absolute freedom" is puzzling to me. The actions which tolerance put a damper on are a pretty narrow set...aren't they? Shabi  DOO  06:27, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "Absolute freedom" is a rather dubious concept both philosophically (Søren Kierkegaard and the existentialists) and biologically (materialism). Bongolian (talk) 18:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't go pulling a Sartre on me now. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yum, dessert island! (Much better than a desert island.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Jordan Peterson
He's back. HairlessCat (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He's been back a while. But, best ignore the drug addict with wild notions about things he knows nothing about this time round, maybe he'll return to his coma in Russia Cardinal Chang (talk) 23:23, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He's back, and still a fucking idiot. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  14:39, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Apparently he sees how things are trending and is getting ahead of them by just openly coming out as a neo-Nazi. I eagerly await mea culpas from all the "establishment" types who previously praised him as a bold iconoclastic thinker. *crickets* --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Canada day.
What's everyone's favourite Canada related food, idea, word, cultural-moment, joke? Mine is in the show "How I met your mother" and "South Park" were all the jokes about Canadians make no sense. Like Canadians are afraid of the dark, or they drive cars with square wheels or like to fart on one another. Shabi DOO  14:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I really do love the Canadian national anthem. Even more than the French one. Spud (talk) 15:29, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Three Pines special with an alco poet walking her pet ducks. (might sound obscure and cryptic, but it's from one of the most popular Canadian book series at present.) Cardinal Chang (talk) 15:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You mean an illegitimate settler colonial state that defines itself entirely as "not being America?" — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What book series is that Cardinal? Shabi  DOO  16:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Armand Gamauche series by Louise Penny They've won fuck knows how many awards. And there is hopefully a decent adaptation coming out next year. Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I like poutine. It’s so much better than regular old American freedom fries 16:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Poutine has invaded the US. Bongolian (talk) 18:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Canadian whisky is better than American. Other than that, Leonard Cohen was my favorite poet/singer-songwriter and Canadas greatest gift to the world.Coigreach (talk) 17:30, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Canuck whiskey does give bourbon a run for its money. Makes me wonder if anybody's tried throwing rye in a bourbon recipe-Hastur! (talk)  21:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Say a word also for Neil Young as well. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 18:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, Young was and continues to be great as well. In fact Canada managed to produce quite a few great musicians, until somewhere around Bryan Adams it started to go downhill.Coigreach (talk) 19:16, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll show my age (and not pick Grimes or Drake or the Weeknd or something) and point out 1980s Canadian comedy -- many SCTV stars became *huge* worldwide, one of the biggest alternative comedies of the late 1980s / early 1990s was Kids in the Hall, and a comedy for kids (You Can't Do That On Television) actually dominated an American children's network (Nickelodeon) for a while. Pretty good show there. As far as Canadian music goes, I'll take the Canadian band that is arguably most well known (apart from inspiring fear and awe in musicians) for name-dropping a character from an American book.. Soundwave106 (talk) 18:09, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Bongolian (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Rush introduced me to the National Midnight Star (it's true!). Despite being an American who wasn't alive during that show, what video I've found of it is hilarious. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 18:28, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

New Discord
New RW Support Discord is up now! Come check it out! 20:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * hmmm it appears you have kicked me out unjustifiably, all I can say is you must not respect democracy.108.208.14.123 (talk) 11:43, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * For anyone poking in, that was TheDarkMaster2, since Oxy went on a short kicking spree on the discord against him during that period. Indefinitely blocked, as per RationalWiki:Chicken_coop/Archive74. Other indicators included obsession with Styxenhammer666, complaining about political correctness and a comment on GCs talkpage that was him socking for unblocking his main. 12:09, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That is unfair. I wa spefectly well behaved on discord2600:1702:2A00:B3F0:60DD:1EA2:219F:7FE (talk) 15:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Can we remove Oxyaena's rights on the discord as we have on the wiki? She's yet again proven she's not responsible enough to have them-Hastur! (talk)  02:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Can someone explain something?
How on Earth has Agent Orange not been removed from office and put on trial for treason? I am pretty sure plenty of the crap he pulls would count as treason. He is a good for nothing traitor who has willfully allowed Russia and the Taliban to kill American soldiers (and probably soldiers from other countries in the Coalition). That is certainly treason. Yes I am venting my frustration about the idiot. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * His psychotic agenda of deregulation is quite pleasing to the powers that be-Hastur! (talk) 23:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * To be technical, those examples aren't treason, just corruption and incompetence. And for some reason we don't have laws against the latter problem... 23:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I dunno. You might argue that he’s giving aid to Russia by helping them deny their hostile actions. And those hostile actions quite likely cost the lives of Americans. 23:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Removed from office by whom? Republican elites are mostly fine with what he's doing (or not doing). There was a little impeachment trial thingy earlier this year if you'll recall (even though it probably feels like half a decade ago). Have you figured out yet that very roughly 35% (judging from approval ratings) of the U.S. citizen population is more or less on-board with dictatorship as long as it does what they want (uphold a white Christian patriarchal ethnostate), and another big chunk is deeply apathetic and disinterested in anything other than personal gratification (whether it's from trying to accumulate more wealth, sportsball, their kids, whatever)? --47.146.63.87 (talk) 23:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In that case, be sure to vote this November. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's one step. But that power doesn't work out right, because the top is so protected and heavily funded.  And yeah, we can joke about agent orange, but https://www.benefits.va.gov/compensation/claims-postservice-agent_orange-settlement-settlementFund.asp that's not exactly the same, and I'm not offended, I'm more like your mom.  I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.  Anybady can call each other Nazis or Thugs to make a point, and I think that language has power, but the easiest way to refute a bad label is to say "no, you."  Like, we learned that in elementary school, I'm rubber you're glue.  Then "I know you are but what am I?" then just iterations on "no, that's you."  I'm on your side, but this careless namecalling to supplant real criticism and this whole "everything they do has to hinder us" mentality, it works its stupid magic on both sides.
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILCNAln_7Z4
 * Also, to clarify, since that's probably way confusing. Call me a thug, call me a nazi, call me milquetoast if you really want to hurt me. But some day, when I'm laying in a hospital bed, experiencing locked-in syndrome, and the only thing I can do is blink out the alphabet, either I blink out the lyrics to I'm a Thug, or I'm a vegetable.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Uploading images to RW
Hello everyone, If I crop and rotate an image that was originally in the public domain and I want to upload it here, what license do I use? Spoiler alert, I already did this and chose "CC-BY-SA 3.0" so did I do the stupid or did I do the smart? PS- Do questions like this go to the Saloon Bar or some where else? Thought Criminal (talk) 20:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * See Help:Copyright notices. There are plenty of templates for images in the public domain. Spud (talk) 23:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Mellow space for a Thursday
https://youtu.be/DVc6bltUL1I Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Forget the mellowness, get the vroom https://youtu.be/6hvqGqYN4Aw

Other wikis
Hey. What other wikis or similar collaborative spaces do you guys participate in? I know of (and participated in a few of):


 * wikipedia
 * conservapedia
 * uncyclopedia
 * illogicopedia
 * encyclopedia dramatica
 * memory alpha
 * wikihow
 * wikileaks
 * gamepedia

Anyone know of any other intersting ones (or even participate in them?) Shabi  DOO  22:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't use other wikis but if you like gaming there is mariowiki, bulbapedia and zeldapedia. 22:40, 25 June 2020 (UTC)


 * ResidentEvilWiki
 * NarutoWiki
 * Zombiepedia
 * YouTubeEASscenariosWiki (my creation)
 * JoeLedgerWiki (my creation)
 * KingOfTheHillWiki

--Insensitive Asshole (talk) 23:17, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I was on MarioWiki (yeah my early years, right here) but I'm not very active on MarioWiki. I also edited on Nookipedia (Animal Crossing wiki) and on WiKirby. 23:19, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I occasionally edit Nonbinary Wiki and will also do minor edits on the big W from time to time. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  23:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Would anybody be interested in helping me delete content copied from Conservapedia on another wiki where I'm an admin? Spud (talk) 23:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps :) Details? Shabi  DOO  23:54, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's Religion Wiki, which is part of Fandom. Contact me here. Tell me your RationalWiki user name, if it's different from your Fandom one and, if I trust you, I will make you an admin. Then you can go here and start nuking the fuckers. Spud (talk) 01:27, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I've now deleted all the articles in the category Articles with content from Conservapedia. I've also found and deleted a few more that weren't in that category. But I'll probably keep stumbling across articles copied from Conservapedia for years to come. Spud (talk) 15:07, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How was something like removing sysoprevoke for an unknown (to me at least) user decided on a unconnected website. Methinks this might be "coopable". Scream!! (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What's your username on the wiki? I wrote Simon Peter Hughes, not sure if that's you though. Shabi  DOO  16:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's me. I made you an admin on Religion Wiki. You may still be able to find and vaporize some pages copied from Conservapedia, if you'd like to have a look. Spud (talk) 16:37, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Mine are a bit more outré. I am fairly active on the Conlang Wikia, and use it to document my conlangs. Then it gets more bizarre than that. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 03:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

You get into Heaven by being a cannibal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Bm0_76O5g

At least according to video from a YouTube horror series. Analog Archives is an excellent horror series. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 16:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What if you are a hard core nail chewer? I mean, over the course of your life if you really nibble on your fingers you've probably consumed a notable amount of your own skin cells. Does that get you into heaven? Shabi  DOO  16:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * One of the Ten Commandments is

Eat thy neighbor in absolute faith of the LORD --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The human stomach slowly dissolves itself constantly, so I guess we all get into heaven? 23:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't think a natural process counts. You also must sacrifice your children to the Lord of the Orange Night and seek the Apple of Truth. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Come on, didn't any of you listen to the Ozark Mountain Daredevils? If you wanna get to heaven, you've got to raise a little hell. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 01:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Blade, you've killed me, I will attempt an ascension. But that play guarantees your spot. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Look for Jackie Blue and her indigo eyes, you have to know she made it there. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 05:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Extreme pedantry: only if you consider its mucus lining to be part of the stomach. Stomach acid is normally only in contact with that, which is constantly being regenerated. If stomach acid penetrates to the underlying stomach wall, you get pain and, if this persists, an ulcer. A better example would be the epithelial cells that continually shed from the pharynx, esophageal, and tracheal/bronchial surfaces and wind up getting swallowed. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

My Sacrifices to the Lord of the Orange Night

 * Shabidoo
 * ikanreed
 * GrammarCommie
 * GrammarCommie

I am just that evil and I will get into heaven. :p --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 16:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

A shitpost
Why are people dumb enough to not wear masks? Why are the police full of douchebags? Why am I not living in Iceland? How do I not have Corona yet? Why do I feel like I'm gonna get doxxed? Why is there a gun in ma maugh? Why does no one fucking agree with me on anything? Why am I still getting taxed by Tom Nook, and waw, that gunth achually loade-*BANG* — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  16:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Why do you want to live in Iceland? It's not that great a place to live. Considering how many Icelanders leave the place regularly. Winter in Reykjavik is rainy and cold. Winter in Akureyri dark, cold and harsh. Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:05, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If I were to live in another country, my choice would be Spain or Ireland. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 16:08, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Anywhere besides this shithole would be fine in my taste. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  16:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The newly departed EK was an Icelander. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And now s/he's an utlander (not got a clue who EK, nor do I care. Odds are EK was a libertarian conspiracy nut, Reykjavik is riddled with them.) Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The above poster is a reptilian soros agent. Disregard everything they said. 20:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Soros agent? I gather you're EK/Ze then. Þú ert nú meiri lattelepjandi lopatrefillinn, bjáni Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Accursed moon runes! A devil! 21:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I had a discussion...
Apparently, there was a TERF that I thought was batshit insane, to the point where she compared trans rights to Gamergate. So maybe a lot of transgender people play Grand Theft Auto? Speaking of Gamergate, don't you think it's kinda ironic that the crowd likes Jack Thompson and Milo Yiannopoulos, two guys that wanted to ban video games, for no other reason than that they hate feminists? — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  22:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, the cozying up with Jack Fuckin' Thompson is one of the reasons you know that they don't really give a shit about games, it's just about the misogamy. I should see if I can pester Kevin 'Kurt' Logan into getting The Sarkeesian effect - (Kurt Logan remix) back up. You ever see that, ?--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 03:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What crowd likes Milo? Isn't he everyone's boogeyman now?.Ariel31459 (talk) 15:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

NAZI PUNKS FUCK OFF.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyc62g7YQM0 HairlessCat (talk) 00:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC) Yikes. That's some, err, punk rock. let me loosen my collar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYeVWTL11Q Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvkDu8o8tMw FUCK THE SUICIDE MACHINES. There is a reason they aren't punk rock, and no, this doesn't solve nazi punk, but {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQK9Y6rBoNg punk rock is always so good and you can never house it.] Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:06, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * https://youtu.be/Etlav26BUsE Cardinal Chang (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

https://youtu.be/xw9GUU-rg6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8x6cy7heo Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I just ordered a fan adapter cable
And now the internet must think that's my fetish. You'd think somebody would have optimized targeted advertising by this point. Like, "he bought a fan adapter cable, let's sell him a fan!" How many fan adapter cables do I fucking need? Hardly a novel complaint, I know, but come on-Hastur! (talk) 17:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like your cookies are following you around. Facebook does that notoriously, logged in or out — that's one reason I abandoned them. Google does it if you're logged it. Bongolian (talk) 21:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As does Amazon: You just bought a $1500 Nikon, would you like to buy a $1600 Nikon? Scream!! (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I know it's cookies, I'm just saying, this concept has been around long enough to be a little more sophisticated, IMO-Hastur! (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

My current YouTube project (that I am nowhere near done making)
I am making an Emergency Alert System scenario based off the Resident Evil video game universe. I intend on making this video the largest video I ever made. Not looking forward to how long it will take to upload. I already have 16 audio files made and I got a few more to go. Then comes putting together the video and testing it. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 20:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

ikanreed is now like a badly formatted reference manual
No appendix! ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, poorly formatted and masturbatory indexing like in Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle.138.207.198.74 (talk) 04:14, 3 July 2020 (UTC)r
 * Ouch. 16:03, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Now you're destined to burn in Hell eternally because you've desecrated God's perfectly-designed temple, made in His holy image. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 00:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not true, you'll get to hang out with your appendix in hell. God just sent it there first so you would know it was the folly of the doctors to intervene.  I feel gross, it was a joke, but I feel gross. Hope the mend is quick and aided by the miracle of humans being able to transfer knowledge via language and writing. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:20, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Worse than that I agreed to let them give me blood transfusion if necessary. Truly incalculable sin.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

RZ94's incomplete list of groups of people Trump pissed off

 * African-Americans
 * Native Americans
 * Hispanic-Americans
 * Asian-Americans
 * LGBT+ people
 * United States Armed Forces
 * Medical Professionals
 * Scientists
 * Non-Christians
 * Palestinians
 * England
 * Ireland
 * France
 * Mexico
 * China
 * Kurdish people
 * Disabled people
 * Environmentalists
 * Women's groups --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see "Russians" on that list. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  16:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "most of the world" and "most of the US right-wing" need to be on that list. 16:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no memory of Trump doing any specific to piss off Irish people that they aren't long desensitized to from the average US/UK citizen to be quite frank. He seems quite liked in and around Doonbeg where he has his golf course, in a place like that though they can't afford not to like him. Féinléiriú (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The Irish got right miffed when they were handed the bill for Trumps security detail after his last visit. Fuck him and fuck his golf course with it's money laundering To this day I'm still surprised this didn't end his political career (there's a laugh) completely in it's tracks. Then again, the Yanks are so bloody confused about Freedom of Speech and the first amendment it shouldn't be so surprising. Granted it's not solely an American trait confusing freedom of speech with saying hateful things, look at that ignorant headcase John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and the late Martha Brassell(mother of The Girl Against Fluoride) -THey used to give me a right ole inadvertent laugh at their moronic performance art on Grafton Street/Harry Street Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The Scottish people fully hate him though. Especially those near his golf course.
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pbTmXsfiYk
 * Coigreach (talk) 17:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * tbf he's not liked here, I just don't think he's ever said anything to annoy Irish people in particular. Féinléiriú (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You forgot "Blue-Collar Contractors", "Banks", "Steak Enthusiasts", "Sesame Street", "Criminal Justice Attorneys", "Gamblers", "Golfers", and those are from BEFORE becoming President. CoryUsar (talk) 08:38, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Holy Diver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhGEGIBGLu8 Ride that tiger, Holy Diver...... — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  01:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a really good album. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 02:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

AIU
Atheism-Is-Unstoppable has been banned again. HairlessCat (talk) 02:36, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Stupid goddamn end of world prediction
So I don't know why it's bugging me, but it's bugging me to hell and back. With the Alien Interview bullshit, I am confident that it is not real and that it was just faked, however for some reason my mind keeps going back to the '08 interview where victor talked about an alleged end of the world. I don't know why it freaks me out so much, I think it's because it's so vague (fear of the unknown and that) but it just freaks me out. The thing is, it's so vague about everything that there's nothing to go off, it's unclear if it's meant to be aliens or something else, all is said is to "not plan a 20th anniversary edition of this documentary," the documentary was filmed in 1997 and the follow up in 2008 so this supposed end times could be referred to either 2017 or 2028 and it's just been making me go crazy. Victor does say that it's not 2012 like the Mayan's predicted but it's very close so I'm assuming between 2012 and 2017 as 2028 is not close to 2012. I feel bad and I am really sorry that I constantly go on about it but it invaded my life, it feels like I can't convince myself of rationality, maybe because of my mental state being screwed (depression and obsessive anxiety) but it always seems like I need someone who doesn't get scared about shit like this to tell me that I'm just being a paranoid idiot, people on here have already helped a lot with saying why the documentary is just a hoax and I can't thank them enough for the help with that, but I guess the source of my anxiety is from that tidbit from the second interview, the thing I don't understand is why, why would someone predict it like that if it's incorrect, it makes no sense to me and I don't understand why people do it. I'm really sorry about this, it's such a dumb thing but it's all I can think about lately. I'm really sorry about this but thank you in advance. --WMS (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You are fine, it is okay to be frustrated. Many of those doomsayers spew their garbage to make a quick buck and they can sound very convincing. My advice (I suffer from Bipolar so I know where you are coming from): Focus on reading or watching videos that debunk the doomsday nonsense and avoid the material the peddles the nonsense. Not sure how much this helps. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's helpful, I'll try to focus more on the debunking side, it's just this one has been on my radar for about 5 years and I (apparently) not got over it. (I thought I did 5 years ago, but it came back recently with double the punch). Thank you for the advice, it means a lot. --WMS (talk) 20:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you seen a therapist yet, because if you're occupied with what random nutcases say to the point you think about it obsessively you have a psychological disorder and need to seek help with it. Unfortunately might be harder than usual at present although more places are doing telemedicine now. You can't "fix yourself" out of a mental disorder any more than you can out of a broken leg. Don't take this the wrong way, please; I have severe depression and know what it's like to have a mental disorder. (Fortunately I'm finally on a medication that's working pretty well.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey I just wanna say congrats and stay strong in fighting depression. It’s a bitch and a half, and I’m happy you’ve found something that works for you. 23:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Getting medication would be a good route to take. Leaving a disorder untreated would be a very bad choice. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The world actually ended Wednesday before last. Like so much else, it was overhyped. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 20:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I used to go to therapy and that helped a lot, the thing is it seems to come in waves. Somemtimes I'm fine for months on end then I have an episode that lasts a month, I guess that's expected with mental health issues. I've mostly managed depression as I am on medication for that, however with anxiety, I underestimated how badly it affects me, I thought I could calm it with things I learned in therapy but maybe I'll need anti-anxiety medication. Thank you for for talking to me about this, and I hope you stay strong with battling your own demons my dude <3.--WMS (talk) 21:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

For the day what's in it
https://youtu.be/JJfp48Y4v28 Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:05, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

How bad will the death toll from COVID-19 get?
The rapidly rising body count is not reassuring. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That depends. Do you mean the amount of people that history will record as dead, or the actual amount, which is significantly larger as people who die because they cannot afford a hospital visit will not be tested(why test a corpse)?-Flandres (talk) 23:26, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, the glorious US of A, land of the free, home of the brave, and the place where minors die because their parents are too poor to afford healthcare. Isn't it just wonderful? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  23:45, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The actual amount. pretty much, even if you have Medicaid/Medicare doctors will look down on you for not having better insurance. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would be willing to cautiously guess 250,000.-Flandres (talk) 00:36, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

excess mortality can give an indication of the 'real' number of deaths AMassiveGay (talk) 13:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Anybody know what is said in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UTc7fpIVrc I was looking through the end of the world prediction list (was using it to say to myself “look at how many and how silly the predictions have been in the past” and stumbled across this on 16th of November 2023. This has been in line with my previous anxiety so I watched it and not once was a prediction like this mentioned. The woman speaks in English and also a different language but by the content of the video, it seems to just be a message on self improvement and not an alleged alien invasion “prediction.” Can someone help me out with this? Thank you.—WMS (talk) 15:26, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Why does the title of that video say that you have to watch it on the 16th of November 2023?
 * ...lemme guess, Alien woo? Thunderclapper (talk) 16:07, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I understood of the video, Noy (the person recording) made a video for herself to watch in five years time to see how she changed and all that.--WMS (talk) 16:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay I have no reason to believe there was some sort of prediction, the only thing I found is some kid's video talking about this, I'm going to remove this from the list.--WMS (talk) 16:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a language in one of the smaller countries of South East Asia like Cambodian, Laotian, Mon etc. Not sure which one. Shabi  DOO  16:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Think it might be Lao, this person does videos about teaching/learning Lao. I actually typed into google translator "Alien invasion" to translate to Lao and this came up "ການຮຸກຮານຂອງຄົນຕ່າງດ້າວ" Which is pronounced "kan hukhan khong khontangdav." After watching the video again I think I may have heard "Kan hukan" in her speech but I'm not certain.--WMS (talk) 16:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: Khan hukan actually means aggression in Lao, and the alien part is the later part of the sentence which I didn't hear in the video (it was translating to alien aggression). Again, I don't think any predictions were made in the video, I was sure to jump the gun on the meaning of kan hukan ._.--WMS (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Davide Wong's depressing take on the elections
Favorite line: "Journalists, meanwhile, still think they live in a bizarro world in which catching Trump making racist jokes or sexist boasts actually hurts him in the polls."-Hastur! (talk) 19:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. It looks like he had a bad dream and had to tell everyone about it. My favorite is number five. Wong doesn't seem to realize that scandals don't come that big anymore. I laughed out loud when I saw that one. Ariel31459 (talk) 21:01, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * IDK, it makes sense to me. I hope he's wrong more than anything.  -Hastur! (talk)  21:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cheer up. Here's what the Ragin' Cajun said today

https://youtu.be/MHfBEopmyis?t=17 Ariel31459 (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I heard something interesting on the radio this morning, The opinion is that the campaigns are both dictated by Trump's missteps, and Biden's silence.  Except Biden has been gaffing it up, and nobody I know hasn't heard him say something stupid or racist or lose his train of thought. Joel Payne compared Joe Biden's campaign tactics to Muhammad Ali's rope-a-dope strategy.  Supposedly Biden's strategy is hang back, let the Trump administration fly off the handle on every topic and embarrass themselves on racial and social equality, and then expect a referendum vote from the left, which is to say the voters, not the administration, will be so exhausted by the political chaos that has come up during the Trump administration that centrists will lean to Biden.  I'm paraphrasing, but I think Mr. Payne was too.  What's lost here is, Muhammed Ali could land a fucking punch at any time.  The hope that this vote can come down to a referendum and this will BENEFIT the left is a cuckoo doo-doo strategy that has failed the Democrats before.  If you want a referendum, and you want it to be on racial equality, pick a candidate that CAN speak to that.  Joe Biden?  Old Joe I know how to court the racists Biden?  Being said, if Joe Biden was running as a Republican, who would be defending his statements and who would be calling him out on his ridiculous statements.  But I digress.
 * A separate and also interesting point was, this is an incumbent race. And you'll notice that the VP doesn't really matter here.  Look at Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin.  How could the Republican party be so disconnected from reality as to let McCain pick Palin?  Romney was a gaffe, simply because he was a Mormon.  Paul Ryan didn't help anything.  With Biden, his running mate won't matter unless he swings for the fences on a real progressive, but that's not going to work against Pence and the staunch Evangelical vote.  Even then, the centrists that Biden is trying to court will turn their noses because the real referendum for centrists is on the R and the D in front of a candidate's name and puts the focus on the legislative branch.  It's a losing scenario either way for the democrats in the executive vote.
 * Being said, I don't take Whit Aires seriously either. It was a bad drive in to work, and as of this morning I'm not looking forward to fall. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * To answer one of your questions, McCain picked Palin mostly to shore up his "real conservative" credentials. It was worried many die-hards would stay at home rather than somebody who ran as a fairly moderate republican in 2000, and even called a closet liberal on fox a few times. In hindsight that was not the smartest choice...-Flandres (talk) 02:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting. So, Palin and Pence were different strategies, but Pence worked. Bambi hatin, AIDS is a choice thinkin, pray on it Pence.  Probably a better play than the rootinest tootinest gal east of Russia gambit. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:31, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Some folks here will never get it, it seems. Actions are progressive. People, not so much. Biden is picking a woman to be vice president. If he picks right, a strong candidate that can take over after he is done, probably in 2024, the next democratic president will be in position to win election. Electing a woman POTUS is pretty freaking progressive.Ariel31459 (talk) 03:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, policies are progressive. It depends on the woman and what policies she advocates for. This should not be that difficult for you to understand.-Flandres (talk) 14:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Policies are only represented by actions. Why make it difficult for yourself?Ariel31459 (talk) 02:21, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, another "is TERF a slur" style word game. Policies are kinda important for assessing someone as a politician. The mere act of giving a woman a chance to be president does not make Biden progressive-centrists also support greater representation for women. He still has to recon with his pitful excuse for a green new deal and the fact his criminal justice plan give 300 million more to police, among other things.-Flandres (talk) 03:03, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Language is important to those of us who want conversations. If you just want to make pronouncements like the pontiff, by all means go ahead. It's always like this for idealists who know Shinola about the real world, and language is the only way we know it for certain. Why not just say "trans exclusionary feminist" if that's what you mean and if you can spell it. Fuck if I care. The democrats don't care what you say about Biden, our next president. The one after Biden interests me though.Ariel31459 (talk) 04:39, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You act like I am slandering an amazing statesman rather than pointing out Biden is fairly sub par(note I did not imply he was as bad as Trump or something). Also, you seem to be implying me as a progressive idealist Sanders supporter who thinks Biden is too right wing when that is hysterically wrong. Furthermore, given the exceptionally low amount of Democrats who poll as "enthusiastic" for Biden I think I can join a majority of Democrats in critiquing the guy when they still vote for him, which I was never implying you shouldn't.-Flandres (talk) 04:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * For candidates in an election, is not policy the indicator of any actions they intend once elected? Surely a voter cannot judge a candidate for actions so much if they need to get elected to take any actions. Would not progressive policies would indicate the potential for progressive actions when elected? One has to hope that proposed policy won't be just dropped once elected, or watered down, never having intended to implement. Voters only really get to base their choices on essentially statements of intent, and whatever background or baggage a candidate brings to how likely it seems they can do what they promise. And I guess if it's actions that count for you over proposed policy, the actions of the encumbant have been decidedly less than progressive than whatever shortcomings in progressiveness anything biden is offering in policy

Fun with my Achilles Tendon
I have been having so many Fun issues with my damn tendon recently: my left leg going really far back when I walk, constant pain, muscle pain in my leg, numbness in the toes of my left foot, loss of balance periodically and my left leg wobbles. There are a few other things too. I looked up the signs of an Achilles Tendon that is about to rupture and guess what- every single thing I mentioned is part of it.

God it hurts like hell. It is also not like I can go to a doctor right now as there would be nothing that could be done. Bloody Hell (yes I am an American who just used British slang). --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Get it looked at, for christ sake. It could be no end of things, and not simply a pending achilles rupture. (Although, I thought they snapped making a loud bang - no joke.)THere could be muscular trouble or what not. Who cares what I or anybody here thinks it could be, we aren't doctors. Get it looked at by a professional. Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:20, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've terribly regretted not going to a doctor earlier in the past. Shabi  DOO  04:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is also the fact that getting into the doctor would be a pain due to the pandemic. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What have you been doing that would result in the a rupture? Not a doctor but I have had shin splints which is maybe a similar kind of injury. Easing up on the activity that spurred it for a couple weeks and it will probs right itself. If it's a training injury, it's likely going at it too hard too soon, and will hurt like hell long before it serious and needing surgery. Just rest it and don't aggrivate it.
 * I repeat though, not a doctor, and I am going from experience with shin splints and thinking it's a similar kind of thing. Get it professionally looked at and all, but don't stress about it at this stage. AMassiveGay (talk) 06:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't fear the reaper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy4HA3vUv2c — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  22:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Love the song! --WMS (talk) 22:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Me too. But "I'm So Glad" is the limit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6xKaUDookk Ariel31459 (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Last words before I get banned.
Creo quia absurdum est. GR (talk) 23:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTksCYUgI7s
 * HairlessCat (talk) 23:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel like Raven hasn't really undersood that almost everyone here has engaged with him in good faith, and has tried multiple times to keep him around and get him to improve. Even me. 23:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ever since he first added a Giordano Bruno on his userpage so long ago, I knew he would get banned eventually because people with martyr complexes are always trouble, and I knew this exact quote would be his last words. I still tried to avert that ghastly outcome though. I guess somethings really are preordained against our wishes, and in the end I just could not work with him nor see an eventuality where he would improve...-Flandres (talk) 23:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * When Raven first posted I had a feeling that something would go awry. Yes I am paranoid. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 00:35, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a coop vote right now if you wish to express more on this.-Flandres (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This was always destined to end badly. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 02:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Idgaf abt the whole thing but I wish GrammarCommie to stay. Pls don't just leave the community like that.Dogeatsdog (talk) 04:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone know what is wrong with this guy?Ariel31459 (talk) 00:37, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * He's not far left enough to be on Rationalwiki.108.208.14.123 (talk) 11:44, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, he should try to be at least as far left as RobS if he wants to stick around as long as him. 147.147.183.247 (talk) 09:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * GR was banned for being an asshole. Up to you BoNs if that is a requirement these days for being "right wing" or not. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You guys are like steve shives you think having a position other than leftwing makes one an asshole. That was my point. Can't believe you think i think being an asshole is what beinga rightwinger is.2600:1702:2A00:B3F0:D49C:2895:B97D:710B (talk) 23:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In point of fact he wasn't banned. Most votes we for a slap on the wrist and then he left.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Bob, that is outright wrong. Most of the votes were for a block longer than a week, also including and indefinite sysop revoke. You have a funny definition of "slap on the wrist."-Flandres (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a slippery way to describe it. An indefinite ban was on the table, but it literally failed. The majority of votes were not for a long term block. Bob is only wrong in the most technical sense of "slap on the wrist" meaning "do nothing" vs. a light sentence, which is what I think he means. I don't know what mileage people get from repeating that the guy was "banned" aside from the emotional satisfaction of somehow besting an internet foe or piling on to dance on his grave. 15:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it tied. You treat it like permaban lost in a landslide. I wonder if you actually read the coop case before commenting?(also ban for more than 22 days is not a slap on the wrist).-Flandres (talk) 15:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The result can be seen here.  It's infinite ban - 10 votes; 21 week ban and sysoprevoke - 10 votes, 2 days and indef sysoprevoke - 5 votes.  While it's true that "slap on the wrist" was an exaggeration on my part, there is no way that you can argue that the majority vote was infinite ban.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I never claimed it was. I claimed it was for a punishment more than a slap on the wrist, and you just agreed with me. Thanks!-Flandres (talk) 20:01, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In point of fact I was disagreeing with Soundwave who claimed "GR was banned for being an asshole". And we both agree the vote result was not to ban him. Which is outright right.  I am also happy we both agree on this.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:44, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Blaming the Youth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXWNChoIluo

I keep wondering why they blame the youth for lack of motivation and not being enough when the reality is that things are never going to be the same as they were in the past. Also isn't it technically the fault of the "boomers" for why the youth of today have to deal with their current problems?Machina (talk) 14:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, It's a comforting scapegoat at least.-Flandres (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Just world hypothesis: the universe is fundamentally just, so when bad things happen to people, it's because of something they did or failed to do. Except when they happen to me, then it's someone else's fault. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 00:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I was in some argument with a conspiracy theorist mega-Karen in a YT comment section who kept bashing kids. Some people are just so ignorant to the fact that every generation gets picked on by older ones. Why is it still a thing then? Metazero (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Reddit's crackdown
You guys have probably heard about how 2000+ subreddits have been terminated after Reddit implemented new Terms of Service. Some people are celebrating the fact that many alt-right subreddits have been terminated, which I agree is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, neocons and other right-wingers are going hysterical over "censorship" and free speech. Thoughts? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 17:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a private website, they have the right to dictate the rules as they see fit. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 18:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree, but some right-wingers can't process that. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 18:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The best reactions are from "libertarians". Imagine being angry at corporations for chasing market trends after supposedly basing your worldview on the idea that that's a good thing... 18:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fear-mongering about totalitarian censorship and "muh first amendment" is essentially whats coming out of this. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 18:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The business involving Facebook shows the problem. People put pressure on advertisers, who then threaten to turn off the money  taps unless the pressure campaigners get their way.  Excuse me for being one of those pesky civil libertarians, but yes, free speech is in danger in such an environment.  This is how the Roman church kept the lid on clerical child abuse for many years. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 20:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no free speech in a private corporate space. Nor is there freedom of expression. There are rules which you agree to upon joining, and face penalities when you violate them. You do not have to join the site/forum/social media platform/private corporate space, it is not mandatory. If the rules are something you don't like, well. Tough. There are other things to do with you life. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, right wing pressure has done some corporate muzzling (Colin Kaepernick, Dixie Chicks). It's up to the business to manage their brand and decide which pressure groups matter. One real problem from a business perspective with the alt-righters though (that they seem totally unaware of) is that flat-out illegal "speech" (depending on the nation -- remember, Reddit is worldwide) even in public space seems to swarm around this group, whether directly or indirectly... e.g., doxxing, harassment, revenge porn, hate symbols, incitement to violence, hate crimes, terrorism, etc. (Some of this is also a problem with the extreme left, which is why ChapoTrapHouse got the whack, but it seems less common.) I really doubt that a major corporation wants to be linked to major terrorism incidents like 8Chan and Gab have, if they can help it. Soundwave106 (talk) 21:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And one of the major features of Reaganism is to privatize what used to be public functions.  So now the principle forum of the day is now private property, and free speech takes a back seat to the 'property rights' of the people using it to make money.  And a substantial, misguided portion of the political left is totally down with this, it seems.  Yes, I have a problem with this line of reasoning.  Just wait until the other shoe drops. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you objecting to alt-righters being deplatformed? Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 13:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for him, but I share a similar line of reasoning-if public space is privatized, whose voices will they silence next? It's all good when they do not want their brand connected with hate groups but what about those left wing groups saying their companies should be broken up or subject to stricter regulation, or reporting on their abuses?-Flandres (talk) 13:28, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I suppose I have to object to alt-righters being 'deplatformed', at least just for being alt-righters and expressing opinions typical of the type. The cant about 'deplatforming' is newspeak of the worst kind. It suggests that those people are simply being 'denied a platform' by its owner rather than being run off of a major public but 'owned' forum like Reddit, and that Reddit's owners are perfectly entitled to do so, because Property! I find this stance quite disconcerting from alleged leftists. It boils down to calling down corporate censorship because you object to their point of view. We are governed by corporate interests more than we are governed by the government anyways. Leftists should understand this and understand why invoking Property to silence an enemy will backfire sooner or later. In the USA the Republicans have for years claimed that attempts to reduce the claims of Property snd bosses are 'class warfare' against the 'job creators' - in other words, 'hate speech' against the political identities they represent. And if they start fussing at sponsors in a way that threatens the bottom line, Reddit and similar public forums can just as easily be compelled to take this claim seriously as well. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 20:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Jesus Christ himself was never so persecuted as the modern American conservative. 22:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Have you seen what's been happening over at to ultra free speech social media platform, Parler? Bahahahahaha https://news.avclub.com/parler-the-free-speech-alternative-to-twitter-keeps-1844238633 As I said, there is no free speech in a corporate private space. If you want one, make one. Just do a better job than Parler and Gab have Cardinal Chang (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. Corporate spaces are private spaces, as has been said already. They have always been private spaces, throughout history. Newspapers, radio, television, now interactive media, are controlled for the benefit of private ownership. This wiki is a private media entity, open to the public subject to a few affective conditions. Ariel31459 (talk) 15:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You're correct, but the concerns being raised by people above is that the principle forums are privatized. The primary platforms of internet discourse are privatized. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 17:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The solution is to stop using them. I have no idea why people put up with Facebook's bullshit, frankly. (I'll admit Facebook has some value as a business-to-consumer outlet, but as a social media experience I personally think it sucks.) "Alternative outlets" exist on the Internet -- they *always* have existed (think how long 4Chan has been around) -- and compared with radio and television it's much easier to make an alternative outlet.
 * All Internet entities have the right to manage their content. Forcing publishers to publish content that the publishers don't want to publish violates the 1st Amendment (the right to a free press). Advocating against this position is *way* more dangerous than "deplatforming" ever would be. If "deplatformed" currently, you simply take your content to a "platform" that supports your viewpoint. If you are big enough, maybe it will be a boon for said platform -- an example here would be Howard Stern, his troubles with the FCC, and his move to Sirius that resulted. (Since a government agency was involved here, Stern had way more right to complain about censorship, frankly... but he found a solution around it.)
 * Imagine if Donald Trump decreed by government law that, say, the Washington Post could no longer write articles critical of Donald Trump, and should only post content written by the usual right wing yes men. Most people would see a pretty big problem with that, right? So who's going to (as an example) force Youtube to not "deplatform" someone like Alex Jones then, when it seems that they see his crazy conspiracy bullshit content as bad for business? I mean, sure, sometimes public pressure reverses decisions like this (nothing wrong with that), but if the publishing entity still feels that an Alex Jones is bad for business despite a few Infowars people being upset, the only one who could do force the issue would be the government. And you really don't want to go there. Soundwave106 (talk) 17:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Many social media platforms (Twitter/Instagram etc) are also highly addictive and detrimental to mental health. They're kind of like electronic drugs. So yes, I agree. In an ideal world we would abandon such services. But that is not likely to happen anytime soon. Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 18:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

When have these platforms not been private? And what is the public platform they replace? Something like Twitter the platform it replaces is what? Speakers corner? AMassiveGay (talk) 05:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * From the current edition of Private Eye, issue 1525, page 19 " Facebook is keen to trumpet its commitment to freedom of speech at every opportunity, but this commitment doesn't extend to all aspects of the business, it seems. A recent internal presentation on Facebook's "Workplace" software, used by businesses around the world for remote working and collaboration, demonstrated new moderation features that could be put in place to stop staff using the platform to discuss "banned" topics. The example used in Facebook's case study of a term employers might want to block from the platform? "Unionize"!" Cardinal Chang (talk) 15:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

A lamentation on the current trend of business closures
I truly never expected for many major businesses with large financial reserves to go under in a short period of time. It is fairly sad to see so many icons you grew up seeing commonly now sinking. They sink like ships hitting icebergs, they collapse like dust blown through the wind. It might sound petty but seeing places you went to growing up are now gone. --Insensitive Asshole (talk) 01:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If your idea of a terrible year is to have $900k in revenue with $1M in expenses, a reserve of $300K can get you through a depression. But the shutdown meant $0 in revenue, even if expenses were only $500k there is no way to survive.  And those jobs will take a LONG time to come back.
 * The shutdown was a bit of a mistake. The issue is that COVID has a base reproductive rate of nearly 6, that is, a typical person who gets it will spread it to 6 others before recovering.  That's pretty high as far as diseases go, which is why it spread like wildfire, herd immunity would require more than 5 out of 6 people to be immune so the effective reproductive rate would drop to less than 1.  For reference, Measles has a base rate of around 15 (among the worst), which is why somewhere around 95% of people need to be vaccinated for herd immunity to be achieved.  That rate also goes down as people alter their behavior.  The shutdown did manage to get the rate to below 1, at which point fewer and fewer people get it and it eventually disappears.  But we only barely got the rate below 1, and more importantly with only a few people getting the disease, the reproductive rate would only barely drop over time and it would require a nearly indefinite shutdown to get rid of the virus.  We couldn't let the shutdown last longer than it did; imagine the state of the world with 2 years of shutdown.
 * What we should have done is keep the country open, but limited rather than completely shut down. E.g., bars, theaters and gyms at 1/3 capacity, rather than 0 capacity.  Maybe a bit of reform of unemployment insurance so that it covers sick time for people that don't work a corporate job that gives you PTO and sick days.  International travel all but shut, and domestic flights limited.  Companies all but required to have everyone that could work from home do so, maybe enact emergency legislation to protect employees with co-morbid medical conditions that need to take extra precautions, etc etc.  The reproductive rate wouldn't have gotten below 1, but it would've been low enough that only a small fraction of people needed to get it before herd immunity would be achieved.  Basically, force the economy into a minor recession instead of an utter collapse. CoryUsar (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, the strategy that has seemed to work for many countries is to:
 * A) Shut down *big time* for several weeks -- no partial shut down.
 * B) Take social distancing measures seriously -- no half-assing around, face masks aren't a communist plot you idiots, etc.
 * C) Test *frequently* so you have more data on how and when to reopen.
 * German style furlough schemes (where the government steps in to compensate for lost salaries in return for there being a job available when a reopening occurs) also seems to be very helpful, from a business perspective.
 * The United States failed part C pretty badly and we have enough of an anti-science populist crowd, including anti-science leadership at the very top at present, that part B was always half-ass at best. This has been mimicked by a few other countries (eg Brazil). You can't shut down forever, and you don't have to. The shutdown was only a "bit of a mistake" because we have enough idiotic assholes in this country to ensure that "curves" will never be completely flattened. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

2020 RMF elections
I’ve set up a few pages to kick start the 2020 RMF election (here) I reckon it should be run off a similar timetable as last year (nominations from 8 July – 21 July, campaigning 22 July – 17 August, voting 18 August - 25 August). DuceMoosolini, FuzzyCatPotato and Spud were all elected last year so not up for election this year.

There’ll also need to be a couple of vote counters (I’ve looked into doing it but frankly I can’t make heads or tails of the system, better left to someone more competent than me). --RWRW (talk) 10:16, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * looks good. 13:35, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Last I heard, said he didn't want to be a member of the Board anymore. Which is a great pity because as somebody who can actually organize a piss up in a brewery, he was potentially the Board's greatest asset. Spud (talk) 00:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I resigned from the Board and I do not intend to run for election this cycle. 19:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Talking about Race
I've tried my best to talk to my family about race issues or how the US isn't as perfect as they think it is, but to them it just sounds like I'm some kind of crackpot conspiracy theorist. Despite trying to show them the stuff on the CIA or police, or slavery they just ignore me. All I get is: not all cops, or what about the people in africa who did slavery too, or that the monuments are part of our history, among other things. Is there any way to talk sense into them to make them see the problems at hand?Machina (talk) 22:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This is kind of a universal problem, and as such, you cannot solve it. You are not responsible for what others think, even your own children. It is enough that you say what you believe when called upon. Some Christians believe there are thought crimes. If that is your problem with your relatives, prehaps they will learn on their own, or at least do no real harm. If some family members are actively harming others, that is a terrible problem for you to deal with. No matter what you do they will not see the world as you see it.Ariel31459 (talk) 01:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC).
 * Learning about race can be quite difficult as an abstraction. It's far easier to learn from real-world interaction than it is through lectures-Hastur! (talk)  01:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Your problem is that they are correct. Your one-sided anti-white gaslighting is abominable. Bobby Turtle (talk) 11:08, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * @Bobby, why do you wish to honor actual-no-joke traitors to the United States? Is it because you hate the United States?  Why do you wish to belittle the abuse of minorities within the United States?  Is it because you hate humanity?  Why do you wish to belittle the horror that was slavery?  Is it because you want to have slaves?  See, two people can play the "you have ulterior motives" game.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 17:16, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Discord
I notice things happening "per discord" (user rights for instance) as if that was some justification.

Discord is not anything to do with RW as far as I know and I find these occurrences somewhat disturbing. Scream!! (talk) 20:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Literally anything justified "per discord" should be automatically reverted.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:42, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, things that affect this site should have significantly more transparency to people who just use this site, especially when the discord has a reputation as a source of drama and controversy.-Flandres (talk) 20:49, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * its a glorified way of saying "they asked" its not like anything is actually discussed. 20:54, 3 July 2020 (UTC)


 * How was something like removing sysoprevoke for an unknown (to me at least) user decided on a unconnected website. Methinks this might be "coopable". Scream!! (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It was simply undoing a self lancb'ing which you know, happens here a lot. Also whether you know me or not I've been active for like, a long time, so maybe you weren't paying attention. 21:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Under what name? How the F is one supposed to know: ¢÷€€¥~$€¿*%£&&&€€? I know you but why not use your original name? Scream!! (talk) 21:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * because I would rather use a different name that isn't so easily traced back to my IRL identity because some people here are actually horrible ok. No offence intended to any specific people reading this. 21:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough but please be a tad more transparent in future "per discord" is not really a good reason for anything. Scream!! (talk) 21:13, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The tech rights were removed voluntarily and not under any cloud. I don't think there's anything controversial about what I did. Why didn't you come to my talk page before complaining at the bar? --RWRW (talk) 21:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Because of the stupid name it wasn't immediately obvious who was being re-instated. Not all of the 'per discord' was you. Scream!! (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Nonetheless, as per the recent policy change. You should not automatically get tech status back. If you want it, go through the procedure. Bongolian (talk) 21:14, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * that specifically says that it doesn't apply to the techs that were extant at the time of the policy change, which I was, so I'm not required to go thru any appointment procedure. 21:20, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy's tech rights were removed voluntarily by herself, so unless you want to reopen that discussion, I think it is least controversial for Ze to reapply for tech rights if so desired. Bongolian (talk) 21:22, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Bongolian has it right! Scream!! (talk) 21:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

The policy change states that tech appointments are for life, and existing techs were grandfathered in. Oxyaena did have her techs rights restored per this policy, and there was a formal mod action made to revoke this restoration, so unless you are personally taking responsibility as a mod action to de-tech me, I'd appreciate you complying with policy and restoring it again. 21:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * To be honest I think that ANYONE who LANCBs should have to wait for any rank to be restored from autopatrolled on up. Scream!! (talk)
 * Can y'all just leave it well alone for once? This latest HCM case was less than a month ago. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * NO-one asked you! Scream!! (talk) 21:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So? You didn't need to raise hell about such frivolous shit. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't be using sysoprevoke without community approval anyways. If somebody doesn't want to be a sysop they can desysop themselves, no need for moderator level action-Hastur! (talk)  21:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you people want me back or not? I'm picking up mixed messages here, but I returned for a specific site maintenance related issue that some people wanted help with. Anyway sort it out please I've made the policy and precedent clear to but nobody has fixed it yet.  21:54, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's good to see you. We're just having a small debate about user rights and the relationship between the wiki and the wiki's Discord.  A lot of editors either don't use the Discord or don't use it regularly so naturally Discord-exclusive decisions are an alarming trend.-Hastur! (talk)  21:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * okie but I think my point is fairly clear, nothing was decided on discord, I literally just made a simple request like has historically been done by email etc so many times when someone can't directly edit the wiki. 22:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Nice to have you back. I think it's RWRW who should have said something here on RW before re-instating you. Scream!! (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I stated my reasoning above. Ze had tech rights previously and resigned them voluntarily (i.e she wasn't under cloud, she wasn't about to have them removed) and was previously well-thought of in the role. Maybe if you disagreed you should have talked to me on my talk page before starting drama at the bar. --RWRW (talk) 22:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry RWRW but I think that this is more than a minor disagreement. Deciding something on another website directly affecting RW is a nono. I have nothing against you or 'Ze' personally, in fact I rather like both of you. Scream!! (talk) 22:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

FYI any discussion in RationalWiki Support Chat should be relayed to the wiki. DMs cannot be enforced but I try to make very explicit in the RationalWiki Support Chat (along with Ace reinforcing this) that any important discussion related to content disputes, blocking, user rights, page protection, and so on need to be posted here. We need users to trust each other. 21:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not on any RationalWiki related servers, I asked a mod directly to restore my userrights because I was blocked with no talk page access when I lancb'ed. 21:55, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Through DM, right? I think the mod should be bringing this up in RationalWiki:All things in moderation. 22:08, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * are you required to bring up every mod action there before making it? I was under the impression that mods were allowed to act alone. 22:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think they can but tech rights seem to me that you have to bring to attention? 22:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * okie but now its at your attention can I please have it back. 22:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

, as I indicated above, if you want to become a tech, you should to it through the proper procedure. If you want to be become tech without following the proper procedure, it will mean that Oxy will feel that she was unfairly punished. Both you and Oxy voluntarily gave up your tech rights, hence your cases share that similarity. To request tech status, you should: Ordinarily I would ask you to read and confirm that you agree with RationalWiki:Techs, but since as EK you voted in favor of the changes in RationalWiki talk:Community Standards, that is not necessary. This really is just a formality, but I think it is for the benefit of RW that going forward (as per earlier discussions) that we are going to follow the rules regarding tech status. Bongolian (talk) 17:45, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Request tech rights here: RationalWiki:Requests for user rights.
 * 2) State why you want to become tech and what experience makes you qualified.
 * ok. 02:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

God save the queen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQeCiGJYoU0 She's not a human being. HairlessCat (talk) 22:47, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * thats about 40 years out of step. the queen is very highly regarded these days, even by the most rabid abolitionist. as then as it is now, the monarchy is not what ails uk politics, and johnny rotten sells butter AMassiveGay (talk) 12:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We all know the queen has a big collection of Sex Pistols CDs. HairlessCat (talk) 15:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Leave John Lydon alone. He's been caring for his wife, the lovely Nora, who has Alzheimer's Disease. She was diagnosed back in the 80s. He does need the funds after Maclaren fucked him over. That said, The Sex Pistols were always about shock rather than ideology.  Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

YandereDev got hacked today, oh boy...
So his password got leaked, website defaced and subreddit hijacked and take a wild guess of which one of our friends did it? RockfordRoe (talk) 00:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Those dipshits have no life... Thunderclapper (talk) 13:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, guess they got bored with their idiot losing his LOLsuit and throwing their money away to carry out that failure of a LOLsuit. Fuckin' assholes.--NavigatorBR (Talk) -  17:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * To be fair, YandereDev is a massive incel and pedophile, and they've been talking about that a few years. Plus he still has yet to implement Osana because he's too busy whining about people criticizing his workflow or lack thereof on Twitch. He deserves every flack he gets, But that still doesn't excuse how god awful KF is. It's like watching toxic BTS and LOONA stans bitchslap eachother on twitter, they're both awful human beings. RockfordRoe (talk) 00:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Wonder which people will get trolled next? --Probable Alien-Human Hybrid (talk) 23:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Does the fact I had to google that name indicate that it is utterly important or that I need to spend more time on the web?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The three things I have gathered from Googling are: A) his "game" has one pretty fucked up worldview, IMHO; B) He's a product of the 4Chan universe (/v/ and /a/ in particular), which is yet another great argument to stay as far away from that universe as possible, and C) his personality, along with his coding skills, are pretty horrible overall. Not that the KF userbase helps this situation by pulling off a few felony computer crimes (if KF's Dear Leader actually does manage to get nullified, KF would be so fucked). Soundwave106 (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

What is all this stuff on the founders of BLM?
Lately, I've been hearing conspiracy theories and weird stuff on who founded or funded BLM, like "Soros funded BLM" and weird shit like that,

Any truth to any of this or more run-of-the-mill conspiracy bullshit?

Metazero (talk) 18:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The far right has accused Soros for funding everything to the left of Dick Cheney. They haven't provided any actionable evidence so far.Coigreach (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the core design of every conspiracy theory is derived from the ur-conspiracy theory, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it's fantastically easy to insert 'Rich Jews Did It' as the central strut. Shit was designed for it. Semipenultimate (talk) 19:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, Soros themed conspiracy theories tend to give him too much credit. If you compare him to the likes of Charles Koch or Rupert Murdoch he is nowhere near as influential. As usual, the enemy of a conspiracy theorist is freakishly more competent in their head than in fact, when they even exist at all(imagine how difficult it would be to create and run a real Illuminati, for instance).-Flandres (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * George Soros currently does provide funding for several local American PACs, typically called Safety and Justice or Justice and Public Safety, which focuses on electing district attorneys that support police reform measures. His Open Society Foundations are involved in a wide variety of broad-issue charities and because Black Lives Matter is sort of a bottom-up, amorphous movement, maybe a little crossover happens. That's the extent of the connection here. A far cry from the oogie-boogie (((JAMES BOND VILLAN))) in most Soros conspiracy theories, but most conspiracy theorists don't seem to understand how the world works very well. Soundwave106 (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2020 (UTC)


 * You also hit on the David Barton-esque hypocrisy of most conspiracy heads. The tiniest thread has huge significance, except when it points towards something -they- believe in, i.e. Donald Trump directly extorting the government of Ukraine on the record in word and deed, when their standards of evidence suddenly changes for some reason! Semipenultimate (talk) 20:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * BLM as an identifiable social movement substantially predated any specific identifiable organizations bearing that name. I don't know how one "founds" a movement with no address, leader, or even particular creed beyond the most basic central tenet of "stop killing people".    It'd be like identifying a founder of pacifism or atheism.   ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:53, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I just want to point out that George Soros founded RationalWiki as well. Basically, if the group doesn’t like Trump, Soros created it. 21:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Rationalwiki is built on software. MediaWiki was developed by the Wikimedia Foundation. George Soros is one of several major donors to the Wikimedia Foundation in recent years TOTALLY PROVIDES ALL FUNDING FOR THE WIKIMEDIA FOUNDATION! Therefore, of course logically it follows that 👿 RATIONALWIKI IS A SOROS PLOT! 👿 Soundwave106 (talk) 21:20, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * George Soros actually underhandedly created Rational wiki and is personally responsible for inserting all of the snark into our articles. He created a snark machine that generates the SPOV that makes our articles so snarkolicious. He also created the democratic party (before he was born) and created Gamer-gate because he is truly against ethics in journalism. I would imagine that if Soros had a trillion dollars that he would invest every one of them into ensuring America never becomes great again. Shabi  DOO  22:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You don't know the half of it. Not only did Soros create RW he (along with Bill Gates) created a special script on RW which spreads Covid 19 via wifi and then transmits this data to chemtrails which then retransmits itself via the 666 protocol to a secret series of websites run by Greta Thunberg which do ... well ....something! Wake up people!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:33, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Pff. I already god COVID via Soros's devious rationalwiki delivery method. I would sue him but his pockets are so deeply lined I know that he would destroy me, especially because of my ultra-conservative traditional family who so desparately want to make America great again, even though none of them are American. I shake in my bed at night afraid of him and I haven't slept for weeks because I have nightmares about Soros eating babies...it makes me wet the bed and running the laundry machine so much is getting expensive. Shabi  DOO  14:42, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it was Covid and not Induced Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity?  The symptoms are very similar and so is the delivery method. The difference is that the first one was designed by big pharma in an effort to sell more vaccines and the real treatment is homeopathy; while the second was designed by the Gates Foundation and the real treatment is a tinfoil hat.  Did you use the correct treatment?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

BLM is really an SCP
SCP-5010

Object Class: Keter

Special Containment Procedures

SCP-5010 is commonly known as Black Lives Matter is an anomalous collection of entities that claim to be a social justice movement. Instances of SCP-5010 have taken place at [REDACTED] on March, 15, [REDACTED]

Hey if we are going all conspiracy, why can't I make an SCP joke? --Probable Alien-Human Hybrid (talk) 00:06, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What, no Illuminati or Bilderbergs? Gunther1987 (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That really doesn't fit into the SCP concept... Kencolt (talk) 22:06, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Some more music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48PJGVf4xqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_QtO0Rhp0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXrygUZPrII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1tIH55Bo8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgvyVEOJqxg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIi0GS6foAU Saw plenty of songs in here and thought: "You know what we need more of here? Songs." Enjoy. Adamchess7347 (talk) 17:14, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Very nice songs, especially the Green Day and Tool. HairlessCat (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Kayne West running for President (ugh)
Come on! We already have one fake Christian clown who is self absorbed in what used to be a respected office. We do not need another. Both have no concept of politics, pretend to be religious, they are both delusional and they are both self-absorbed.

Yes I know it is a mere stunt to pull black voters away from Biden and that him becoming president is so unlikely that you would have a better chance at winning the lottery. Either way the idea disturbs me. --Probable Alien-Human Hybrid (talk) 00:49, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's more like a stunt to promote his next album, really (not like musically he's mattered since his first two albums very much). He's learned a lot from the Kardashian school of obtaining the bullshitery of fame by aiming squarely at the gossip column crowd. Soundwave106 (talk) 01:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, Graduation had two good songs on it, don't lie. This would be shrug-off, except people are caught up in it.  There's no way he's going to get a campaign together in time, but the thing is, either he's launching a campaign that he literally cannot launch because he is just that unaware (which, granted, he might be) or he is launching a stunt for visibility of his new music, a stunt which everyone has already clocked, which means either he is unaware of what he's doing or he is so aware of the stunt he's pulling that he knows we will either listen like stans or hate listen to his album.  My God, this man is playing 4d chess...  He is the only man who can take down Trump...
 * Or it's just a stupid stunt pulled by a constantly unaware person and people feed so desperately into these things that it's going to matter whether or not he was actually trying to do anything at all. ::People make this kind of reality through consensus, and the reality is, Kanye thus far has never been ignored or stopped. I expect this to get weirder.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * You can never have too many fake christian clowns destroying your republic.Aloysius the Gaul 03:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ^THIS. 138.207.198.74 (talk) 04:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ”It’s more like a stunt to promote his next album, really”. Well, Trump seemed initially to have floated his 2016 presidential run as a way to boost the ratings of The Apprentice, then matters took their course. So, don’t underestimate the effects a vanity/promotion project can end up having, as people may latch onto it for totally different reasons than what drove/drive the instigator. Nevertheless, I don’t see Kanye’s cuckoo project going anywhere, fortunately. ScepticWombat (talk) 05:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I rather have Morgan Freeman as a President, good actor, played a President and as God. Certainly a better choice. --Probable Alien-Human Hybrid (talk) 23:48, 8 July 2020 (UTC)