RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive34

On being pedantic
Ah the intricacies of being pedantic in English. It reminds me of the old Jonathon Miller sketch in "Beyond the Fringe".

'Bertrand Russell': ''One of the advantages of living in Great Court, Trinity, I seem to recall, was the fact that one could pop across at any time of the day or night and trap the then young G.E. Moore into a logical falsehood by means of a cunning semantic subterfuge. I recall one occasion with particular vividness. I had popped across and had knocked upon his door. ‘Come in’, he said. I decided to wait awhile in order to test the validity of his proposition. ‘Come in’, he said once again. ‘Very well’, I replied, ‘if that is in fact truly what you wish’. I opened the door accordingly and went in, and there was Moore seated by the fire with a basket upon his knees. ‘Moore’, I said, ‘do you have any apples in that basket?’ ‘No’, he replied, and smiled seraphically, as was his wont. I decided to try a different logical tack. ‘Moore’, I said, ‘do you then have some apples in that basket?’ ‘No’, he replied, leaving me in a logical cleft stick from which I had but one way out. ‘Moore’, I said, ‘do you then have apples in that basket?’ ‘Yes’, he replied. And from that day forth, we remained the very closest of friends.'''

Genghis Khant 23:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, my brain is fried, anyone want to explain the subtle pedantry in that one to me? Kthxbai... Human 03:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At first I thought it was some trick on "some" and "any" but it doesn't work. Click here for the original soundtrack which makes it clear it's a gag.
 * Bob M 09:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I've sort of figured it out, without the help of wikipedia's non-existent article on bare plurals. "Any apples" can mean "all apples" ("any apple grows on a tree"); "Some apples" is a bit tougher, but still has a meaning like "some apples are red", which may be the logical direction Moore was trying to avoid being skewered on.  Simply "apples" means what it says on the tin - more than one apple, and nothing else. Human 21:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (Hey, this thread is almost on-topic for this wiki!) Human 21:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much how I interepreted it. Genghis Khant 21:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

In honor of my birthday
Happy birthday! I have put some 15 year, cask-strength Macallan on tap here for all RationalWiki refugees! Drink up!Gooniepunk2005 23:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oooooooh, that's goood stuff. Did you catch Nancy on Ron Reagan's show last hour? Human 01:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For some reason, I am never around when Ron Reagan's show is on, so, no, I didn't hear his interview with Nancy. Was it good?Gooniepunk2005 22:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was. They sounded like a son and his mother chatting about an old friend of their dad's (ok, not her dad, mangled sentence).  She was pretty lucid for her age, and very nice about Ted, and how close they all were.  The mother/son thing was kinda sweet, that they would let down their hair a bit and be a little personal on the air.  Might be at whiterosesociety or Ron's website if you want to hear it, it was roughly the last 20 minutes or so of the show.
 * Happy Birthday, Goonie, sláinte mhath, and thanks for the drink. RagTop 03:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers mate! Many happy returns and all that. SuperJosh 17:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks all. I had a blast yesterday.Gooniepunk2005 22:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Me too, thanks! Human 00:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Hell...
...is giving 4 presentations in 1 day, in a language I've barely spoken for the last 12 months. Just wanted to get that off my chest. -- Psy Whut? 18:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Namespaces
I have noticed that there are Debate and Essay namespaces here, which don't seem to make much sense. I would suggest that you replace them with things like Lesson, and change Free stuff into a category, which is more fitting its purpose. Phantom Hoover 18:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I could do. To be honest they are not much used but there might be in the future.  The world of TEFL is by no means a done deal and is really rife with debate about methodology and such like. Essay will allow people to create opinion type pieces if they so wish. "Free stuff" doesn't really fit into the mainspace (or won't in theory) because one could give a lesson a name which would then look like an article.  As you will have guessed I stoled the ideas of those spaces who in turn (I think) stoled them from CP.--Bob M 19:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But namespaces should separate different kinds of page, like articles from essays and material for lessons, meanwhile categories are for indicating shared attributes of pages; therefore "Free stuff" shouldn't be a namespace, because you can have two lessons, one of which is free and one of which isn't, but "Lesson" should, because, as you say, you should separate lessons from articles. Phantom Hoover 19:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Space "free stuff" is for class materials which teachers have developed and which they have donated to the community. Not everything that a teacher might develop is, in fact, a "lesson". It could be a game for example, or a particular activity which the teacher has found useful for explaining or clarifying a particular point.  We will never host paid lessons here - indeed it's not clear how we could.  We also do have a couple of categories for "free lessons" or resources which people can obtain from the web. --Bob M 19:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

New Logo
After much to-ing and fro-ing we have a new logo at Teflpedia. I would like to express my thanks to Toast who initially suggested the use of IPA text; to Phantom Hover and Nx who gave up their time and patience to actually create it; and to all those who contributed opinions. It should serve as a memory of the RW vacations in 09.--Bob M 14:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "initially suggested the use of IPA text" and teh mortar board. Toast 14:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I stand corrected. And the mortar board.--Bob M 15:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh! I haz teh ideas and the peons do the work. That's management! Toast 15:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer to see it as me and Nx helping the tech-unsavvy old people make pretty pictures. Phantom Hoover 15:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This senior citizen has been making pretty pictures on computers probably since teh "tech savvy" people were in nappies. Toast 15:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd already gathered that you had done computery stuff before. Phantom Hoover 16:09, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, now I look at it again - and look at some other logos - do you think we should but a line of sub text. "The wiki for English teachers" or something of that nature?--Bob M 15:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The only people who will ever see it are already here and presumably know why, so no. If you use it external to the site (on printed matter e.g.) then yes.&mdash; Unsigned, by: Toast / talk / contribs
 * Wikpedia says: "The free encyclopaedia"; Conservapedia says "The Trus(t)worthy encyclopaedia; Ask says, well, nothing. But it might be nice for new users. Just thinking.--Bob M 17:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's good to see you got something positive out of letting us all crash here. Armondikov 15:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also a memory of the visit. Perhaps it should become an annual tradition - invade another wiki every year for the last two weeks of August.--Bob M 17:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Text added here. Phantom Hoover 20:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "The English teaching encyclopaedia" doesn't sound right to me. Does it mean an 'English encyclopaedia of teaching' or an 'English-teaching encyclopaedia'? Perhaps it should be 'The encyclopaedia of English-teaching' or 'The encyclopaedia of teaching English' or even 'The wiki for teachers of English'. Genghis Khant 22:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not actually an encyclopaedia is it? It's a resource. Toast 22:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll change it tomorrow. Phantom Hoover 22:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well the mainpage says: ''Teflpedia is a wiki dedicated to everything associated with teaching English as a foreign language or  second language. Our objective is to become a user-generated resource for English teachers internationally. We opened our doors on 27th May 2008 and we've been slowly growing ever since.''

So - how to describe it? Resource? Wiki? Encyclopaedia? Meeting point? Perhaps simply calling it a "wiki" would be best? Opinions?--Bob M 09:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks PH. Now I see it I'm not so sure. Would "The English Teachers' wiki" look better?--Bob M 10:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I just want to second Bob's suggesting of a RW summer outing. No, not that sort of outing. Armondikov 09:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeh, but I bet we forget next year. Unless Trent "arranges" it again.--Bob M 10:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hehe, yeah. And in your caption above, either "Teachers'" should be uncapped or "wiki" should be capped, right? Human 21:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right. My bad. (Unless you were to regard "English teacher" as a proper noun or a title. But that's clutching at straws.)  Where is Tolerance when you need him - or was it her?--Bob M 22:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * English teacher = teacher (of any subject) who happens to be English.


 * Wiki for teachers of
 * English as a Foreign Language
 * Toast 22:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a bit unwieldy, isn't it? Also, while "English teacher" can be read that way, it also can clearly mean "teacher of English". In fact, I doubt the confusion will come up much, if at all.  If I said "my English teacher" I doubt anyone would think I meant "my math teacher from England".  See how it compares simply to "math teacher"?  Human 00:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you were in Spain how about: my English wife; my English car; my English cup of tea; my English teacher? Toast 00:35, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

(UI)You forget I am in a foreign country, and, here, the first three phrases mean what you would expect, and "English teacher" means a teacher of English. Human 00:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Have it your way. Toast 00:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's Bob's decision, and I'm sure he will weigh our arguments in his fine balance. If he even bothers to read all of them ;) Human 00:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As for me, I'll just wait until you've all come to something approaching an agreement, and then I'll update it. Phantom Hoover 07:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the description "English teacher" is acknowledged to cause problems. See our article teacher.--Bob M 07:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, that article needs some work, but how about "Resources for teachers of English as a foreign language" on two lines? Human 07:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't fit on two lines at the font size I'm using, and I don't want to make it any smaller. Phantom Hoover 08:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, how about "For teachers of English"? Or how about the older logo, no text except the IPA? Bob? Human 08:31, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is that while "English teacher" is potentially ambiguous. (Is the teacher English, or is English the subject being taught, and is that a TEFL teacher or a "normal" English teacher.) In reality such ambiguity never really causes problems. Anybody coming to a site called "TEFL something" will know full well what is going on.  And If they don't the first paragraph on the mainpage explains what we are.  So I don't think that we need to get too hung up over this or get into too long an explanation.  I also like PH's font and font size, and I like the idea of a bit of text.--Bob M 09:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Request
PH, can you roll me up a copy of the teflon logo in which the mortarboard is roughly 120 pixels wide tip to tip, with the text the same size as it is? You can email it to me or post it here. I need it for something I am working on. Thanks! Human 23:32, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Politicians
I thought the House of Commons was bad but I really don't know what to make of this. Can anyone explain it to me? Genghis Khant 22:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they do this stuff all the time. Most "work" is done in committee, so the place is 3/4 empty and no one cares, but "speeches" like that end up in the Congressional Record.  Note that she was limited to 5 minutes.  In the good old days of filibustering the old farts would just stand there reading the bible or the phone book or whatever they had handy in order to keep talking.  We haven't had a good fist fight in ages, though. Human 22:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently one of the record lowest turnouts for the UK Commons was during a discussion on truancy... But yes, all the real work is done in smaller committees (Select Committees in the UK, IIRC) leaving some weird shit to go down in the actual chambers. Armondikov 09:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Bandwidth
Bloody hell. Hosting RW is really chewing up my bandwidth. My previous maximum bandwith in a month was 900 meg and I've got 2000 contracted. At the moment I'm at about 1400 used - which means that I've got about 600 left. My maximum daily load with RW on board was 206, though 180 seems more like an average. With four and a half days of the month left that looks a bit ominous, especially as things are more likely to go up than down. A word with my provider is in order I feel.--Bob M 10:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. You may get some leverage if you say it's temporary.  If you need a few bucks to get an allowance increase to cover the usage, then I know I'm happy to contribute. Worm 11:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just in live chat with them now. The bastards are playing hardball.--Bob M 11:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now you know how Trent feels. Theemperor 12:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And you're not really getting hit as hard as RW usually does. Good luck, I'll stop refreshing the page 10 times a second :p. But cheer up, it's really only a few days before Trent is back at home, chained to the server so he stays within kicking distance. Armondikov
 * 500 used in the last seven days, 600 to last youten days... not gonna make it. Is there a way for us to chip in if you go over? 188.220.32.68 15:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The 600 only has to last out the month - 4 days or so. So he'll make it, it looks like. Human 21:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder... How much of the bandwidth will have been taken up by me and Nx uploading more than ten different logo candidates? Phantom Hoover 17:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that'll be very high. What will increase the load though is the number of people looking at those pages. I must admit that I refresh Rc loads of times & that's gotta be fairly high bytewise. Suggestion: remove all RW added Javascript/CSS from personal and common. (dunno if that'd help at all. How much does "Use enhanced Recent changes" contribute over a week? Toast 17:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wondering about what chews bandwith as well. I'm at 1469 now, but I can't remember the exact number from this morning, but we don't seem to be chewing up bandwith at quite the same rate.
 * Talking to their finance people was like negotiating with a brick wall, their only solution was to upgrade my packages. Their negotiating position was - "If you go over your limit we switch you off." But, in the middle of the conversation - weirdly just as I asked them to put a value on the upgrades -, they transferred me to their techo folk. They were a bit weird, but gave me an extra 100 mbg.
 * So we'll wait and see how close we get to the line. Perhaps people could hold off uploading stuff till the new month starts? Would that make much difference?--Bob M 17:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The top bandwidth users are: Some of that will be regular traffic. The UK and Gb are usually near the top. For comparison last month was: --Bob M 18:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Great Britain 322.46 MB
 * United States 307.37 MB
 * Spain	204.32 MB
 * Hungary 106.85 MB
 * Australia 85.77 MB
 * Spain	296.40 MB
 * United States	48.01 MB
 * Great Britain	21.33 MB
 * Malaysia 8.07 MB
 * China 16.30 MB
 * *Hungary 106.85 MB
 * Hm. I guess I better lay off the refresh button Nx 18:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it vaguely weird that the UK beats the US. Phantom Hoover 18:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I thought that too.
 * Would archiving older parts of student bar make much difference?--Bob M 18:42, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Bob, it would be a good idea to archive a large chunk of this page (and any other long pages like WIGO ASK talk) as the bandwidth usage increases geometrically. Also I would suggest commenting out any images as well. You've made us all quite welcome here and it would be a pity if we trashed your wiki with our presence. Lily The Pink 19:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Lily. You beat me to the archive.--Bob M 19:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Update
Update: 1530 used out of 2000.--Bob M 22:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Purple Scissors at wikisynergy had offered up a "room" where we could play if we wanted. We might want to try splitting the load or something? Offload the talk wigocp or the student bar to WS maybe? Human 23:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why don't we fire up an Amazon EC2 server to use and we chip in to the account holder? I have an account set up and so I can boot one up, but considering it would cost about $100 / month (including the bandwidth) I'd need some contributions to avoid being castrated by tehmizus. Crundy 07:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Either that or I can give you an account on my Linux reseller server with something like 10Gb of bandwith. Do you need root access to use MediaWiki or can you install it on shared hosting servers? Crundy 07:55, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To be hones I don't know. Maybe Nx can comment. Thanks for the offer.--Bob M 09:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

WikiSynergy apparently has plenty of spare BW to share. If things get scary, Bob, why not make a banner link thing to a random page or subpage over there. I'm sure she won't mind. Human 08:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Update: Now on 1565 out of 2000 so things seem to be slowing down, or people are checking recent changes less often or, archiving some pages has had an effect. If we run right up to the edge I'll do what you suggest and put a banner on Student bar suggesting that people take it to a page on WikiSynergy. --Bob M 09:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If we can keep the pages here relatively small (mainly talk pages anyway) then that should do the trick. Moving to another site will only complicate merging everything back into RW. Also, if people could use a slightly smaller font then that might help as well. ;) Genghis Khant 10:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Update 1622 of 2000.--Bob M 19:15, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If someone can set up a temp wiki quick on a cPanel account then let me know and I'll drop you a username and password for a hosting account to use. Crundy 21:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Update:1709 of 2000. Thanks for the idea Crundy but I'm afraid that I don't know how to do that. Don't know if any of the more techy types here know.--Bob M 06:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we should move either talk wigo CP (or the student bar, nah, keep that here, it's a cool pagename) to wikisynergy soon. We don't want to bump you over the line.  In html you can do a "redirect" that is automatic.  Can you copy talk wigo cp over to WS and insert such magic?  Or just leave a simple one line link? Or, will "300"-odd last for two more days?  I am trying to use small words as much as I can. Human 07:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it might, actually, given that the count has only gone up by a little under 100 for the last two days. Phantom Hoover 08:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like we may scrape through.--Bob M 10:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Update: 1772 of 2000. I should like to thank people for taking it easy. :-) I should especially like to thank the financial contributor from the other end of the world.--Bob M 16:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC) Update: 1834 of 2000. We should make plans for the worst. :-( --Bob M 06:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I should stop hitting F5 every ten minutes on the recent changes page.. Web 07:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're a RC-junkie then at least turn off image downloads (check advanced settings for your browser if you don't know how) and in your personal settings reduce the number of entries to display to 10. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 07:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Update: 1889 of 2000--Bob M 20:25, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Update: 1960 of 2000. She's going to blow captain!--Bob M 07:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Need to make redirects to http://www.wikisynergy.com/~wikisyne/w/index.php?title=wikisynergy:hotel and http://www.wikisynergy.com/~wikisyne/w/index.php?title=wikisynergy:WIGOCP ASAP? Human 09:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume Bob's host uses gmt... if that is so, there are only 7 hours left until september ... hopefully teflpedia won't be down for long if it does down. Nx 15:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume my host is giving me a little bit of rope. I have been getting automated messages telling me that I'm at 99% but so far the knife has not fallen. From previous dealings with them I have the impression they don't want to lose clients, although when I spoke to their accounts dept a few days ago they weren't that helpful. Should have spoken to sales. Yes, they are on GMT which is notably ahead of US time.
 * I'm reluctant to look at my statistics pages in case looking at them provokes some bot to action. I have the impression that some of my e-mails have followed immediately on from my looking at the stats.  Sorry about reducing chances to play for everybody. It's a bit like inviting everybody to a party and then finding out you don't have enough beer.--Bob M 16:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no need to apologize - thank you for letting us make a mess of your wiki. Nx 16:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, August is over, but for future reference you should look into enabling output compression to reduce bandwith. MediaWiki actually does this by default, but you need to enable zlib support in PHP. --79.40.239.85 05:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bob, I've uploaded a little memento, just in case you never see it again. 19:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The Demon Insomnia and Holiday Hangover
One of those christing insomniac nights. Always happens to me seasonally, as I am moving into spring down here in this wayward hempishere my body reacts badly. Last night I was in the throes of some kind of alcholic sicknesses that bewitch those that spend the week drinking heavily whilst on holiday. Combined with some belly infection the struck me as soon as I was airbourne from Melbourne airport I was in a world of pain. Tonight though is straight insomnia. So I get back up and leave Ms McWicked to her own sleepless purgatory - on the boarder of waking hell and heavenly sleep - and pour myself a double triple  quad full glass of scotch and partake in a cigarette in my backyard. Under these beautiful NZ skys, clear stars wink at me as they complete their circus. I mull it all over, feel the wonderousness that can only come from imagining deep space. Then I get cold and come to see what you fuckers are up to. So wow me. Ace McWicked 12:11, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You scumbags are boring, I am going back to bed. Ace McWicked 13:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I laughed at a crying kid today. That was the high point of it. SuperJosh 18:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I put some dirty knickers in a Kiwi's airplane food on a flight from Melbourbe to Wellington a few days ago. I wonder if it made him sick as heck. Hi Ace! Nutty Roux 24.14.72.223 18:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Dreams of wiki
I was having a bit of a bad dream last night and wanted to get out of it. So I found a wiki-link in the dream, clicked on it and felt myself go to a different page, and a different dream. Am I spending too much time on-line?--Bob M 17:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but when you react to a joke by saying lol,you've reached the point of no return. -- Psy Whut? 17:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought the point of no return was when you end an ironic remark by saying ;) --79.45.237.109 20:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have had similar dreams, where there's no link, I hit "edit", make one, click on it.... Human 23:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No, you're too far gone when you say "bracket bracket Liberal bracket bracket"  Theemperor 05:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you type ~ before you woke up? Sterile 00:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not in so many characters, no. It's spelled "left ring finger down, left middle finger tap tap tap tap, do not stop at three, and five shall be right out." Human 01:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Nother dream
I had a dream last night that I was on the London Underground (London train service) with a friend and the train got hijacked by a guy that took it to a secret house where he and a group of friends were pirating DVDs. It was an immensely cool dream, as I never usually remember them. SuperJosh 10:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Conservapedia create account
There's no create account button on Conservapedia - I know Phantom Hoover bought this up the other day, but it's still not there. I think they've finally done it and effectively ended free speech on Conservapedia. Other people's verdicts? SuperJosh 19:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sometimes they forget to switch it back on. But just like night editing and range blocks, anything that serves to put off new editors can only be good news for the forces of reason. Genghis Khant 20:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Whenever we get RW back, we totally need an FAQ to answer the "Why is there no create account button?" question. --Jeeves 20:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the fact that me and Josh are both in Britain may have altered our perception of things like night mode, because of the time difference. Do you get the Create Account button if you've been blocked? TK rangeblocked me a while ago after I made a slip, so that might explain it. Phantom Hoover 20:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall this happened at least once before. I can't believe they'd do such a thing deliberately.--Bob M 20:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You should still be able to see the create account button even if you've been blocked from creating an account - it just won't complete. Genghis Khant 20:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not even that it matters any more - it's become impossible for the tiniest voice of dissent to be heard from a new user, and wandalism isn't worth the hassle most the time. SuperJosh 10:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It's back
The button's back. Allow the sockpuppetry to begin! SuperJosh 12:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, I'm IP blocked. Oops! SuperJosh 12:22, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * TOR is your friend. Web 19:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I still have three tabs open on RW
A template talk I've had for ages, an article talk page where the first ref is a dead link, and talk:C-decay where I was arguing poorly with h/2h over something that seems so... long ago... I go there when I need to eat brains. I hope my firefox doesn't crash before Septic VI, these tabs are my only link with our glorious past, my friends. Human 07:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No doubt that is what brought RW down! Human's open tabs!--Bob M 11:45, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I like this hypothesis, but I don't think Human is willing to test it. Sterile 02:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean if I close them, it will come back? Noooooooooooooooooo it's all I've got....... Well, ok, that and you guys here. And that synergy place. Human 03:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Abducted girl found after 18 yrs
I'm sure that most of you have heard about the 11-years old girl who was abducted 18 years ago and recently walked into a police station. I was not at all surprised to read this from the BBC article:

''Their identities were revealed after police spotted Mr Garrido as he handed out religious literature at the University of California Berkeley campus with the two young children. He raised suspicions because as a registered sex offender he was not allowed to be with young children. .... Some of those who had had contact with Mr Garrido over recent years said he had developed increasingly strong religious beliefs.''

Those evil amoral atheists, they're everywhere nowadays. Genghis Khant 11:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like something from Jack Chick. Evil rapist kidnaps young girl but later finds God so that's all right then.--Bob M 11:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I bet that's something we're going to hear about on Conservapedia, the website which doesn't censor the truth. SuperJosh 12:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know this topic was here, I just added a link to this story at WIGO world. Imagine the relief and joy of the girl's mother, what a situation though, that nutter kept her confined in his back yard for 18 years. Refugee 22:22, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At the time of her disappearance she was living with her mother and step-father (no mention of real father, perhaps he died earlier on), after she disappeared their marriage broke up and the step-father has been under suspicion of involvement. Finally he is exonerated. Genghis Khant 22:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No mention in the story who the father of the young girls is... (her daughters). Creepy. Human 01:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it has been stated (somewhere) that Garrido is the father of the young girls (too lazy to check). Apparently the girls have never seen a doctor nor a school. I wonder if they have been homeschooled? Now the police are saying that they are also investigating a series of prostitute murders. Genghis Khant 06:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC) 06:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, I've found "vague" refs to that now. It's probably too early for hard and fast claims to be made.  Oh, and I'd forgotten to do the math... the abductee was 14 when she had her first daughter. Human 21:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

TGIF!
That's all I have to say, TGIF! About freakin time! 3 day weekend now for me! :D Refugee 22:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Our host is under some constraints with bandwidth so please refrain from too much page refreshing and archive stuff to prevent frequently-viewed pages getting too long. Genghis Khant 22:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What? Refugee 00:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just don't stick images on highly viewed pages (like I did) and we should be ok. Human 03:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Does it matter if I blocked all the images frum this site? Or does that still takeout wide rubber bands or whatever.. PENlS! Kektklik 11:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

user Republicans Reject Science; Scientists Reject Republicans
I can't remember if this was discussed before Teh GCOON, but only 6% of scientists are republicans. maybe there is hope for the world.  Psy Whut? 15:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Porn for the Blind
Ok, last one for today. porn for the Blind. I kid you not. -- Psy Whut? 15:34, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks.. I can use this when I'm too tired to keep my eyes open to look at my fiancée. &#42;downloads each one and loads it onto my mp3 player&#42; Kektklik 17:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable to me. We have guide dogs for the deaf and music for the deaf. Why not porn for the blind?--Bob M 18:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hah, listened to a couple. They're hilarious. It'd be great to do a bait and switch audio for them. Maybe something that starts off innocuous but a dog comes in half way through. That'd give the blindies something to think about. --Jeeves 22:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

interesting observation
We are always yacking on about how many of us are active on RW, and we've tried to use various metrics to get a good idea of the numbers.

At Category:RationalWiki I count over 50 users - people who are into RW enough to have taken the trouble to join at this refuge. And people are still signing up.

Just an observation. Human 21:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A surprising number actually. After this month ends It would be interesting to start: "How I found the student bar."  But not until the 1st of September please.--Bob M 21:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Screw it. I wasn't going to overload the bandwidth, but if we're going to use "who found da site?" as a metric, I'll sign up slavishly. SuspectedReplicant 22:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but you're a sockpuppet... Human 04:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Err... nope. SuspectedReplicant 07:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Archive binging
I'm currently going through Irregular Webcomic. I've been at it for nearly two days, and I'm still only at about 600. Phantom Hoover 21:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Ed Poor on Wikipedia
I realize he's a lame duck over there (one who won't leave, of course), compared to the license he has to drop his little 'quoticles' all over Conservapedia, but some of his recent WP edits have been a bit blatant in trying to slowly remove criticism of the Unification Church. This, on the other hand, is just amazing.

I vaguely remember something on RW about him actually being employed by the Unification Church. Is that for real? Mt 22:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know if he was "employed" - as in getting paid - but I think that he said that he had helped out with his local church's website and maybe with the UC's website as well. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 22:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, Ed is a master of writing policies that are bound to make tons of people lash out. The only question is: Does he do it on purpose or is he just hardwired to do so? Either way, if there is one thing we should thank Conservapedia for is that it keeps idiots like Ed from doing even more harm on Wikipedia. --Sid 20:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Spiny Norman!
Our own Spiny... I'm so proud! (I think.) Sterile 00:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's our hedgehog... Human 23:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

DO SOMETHING ALREADY
There hasn't been a single edit here or at Wikiindex for nearly two hours. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? Phantom Hoover 20:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps people are trying to conserve bandwidth.--Bob M 20:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah. Phantom Hoover 20:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) We're holding our breath until September 1st. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 20:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a bank holiday weekend. Sane people aren't in front of their computers, working. --Jeeves 20:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes; I forgot that. It isn't in Scotland. Phantom Hoover 21:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hah, Scottish people. Shouldn't you be out shooting wild haggis or something? --Jeeves 21:39, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not in Edinburgh. Phantom Hoover 21:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's my birthday, so I'm at home, with my wife, having a steak and an 'ace' bottle of wine :) Worm 21:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Happy birthday! Human 23:38, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Possibly the best site on the internet
I have just discovered Objective Ministries, whos website is possibly the funnist thing ever. Some choice highlights-

In their News section:

(apparently they were subjected to a spam attack from YTMND, bold mine)

"Memes were first proposed by infamous Evolutionist and militant Atheist Richard Dawkins in his anti-Creation polemic The Selfish Gene as a way to infect society with Evolutionism through commercial jingles and the like. Recently, memes have been used on the Internet to lure youths into mindlessly repeating key phrases such as "Oh Really?" and "All Your Bases Belong To Us" -- phrases designed to break down individual thought and condition the subject to accept faithlessness and Humanistic rule.

This disturbing connection between the attack on our prayerbook and the forces of Evolutionism leads us to suspect that one of Dawkins' followers could be manipulating YTMND -- which is mostly comprised of disaffected youths -- to put their "meme" theories into practice and target our site for intimidation. It may be that YTMND members have been turned into mindless Dawkinsian "robot vehicles", blindly following the meme-programming of the emerging Atheofascist movement."

There's also the bit where the plug Conservapedia, of course

"If you want a community-created encyclopedia that doesn't fall victim to the sins of pride and gossip -- and that hasn't been hijacked by anti-Christian and anti-American forces trying to pass Darwinism off as science and changing the proper American spelling of words -- please consult Conservapedia, the conservative Christian alternative to Wiki Encyclopedia:

Conservapedia is a much-needed alternative to Wikipedia, which is increasingly anti-Christian and anti-American. On Wikipedia, many of the dates are provided in the anti-Christian "C.E." instead of "A.D.", which Conservapedia uses. Christianity receives no credit for the great advances and discoveries it inspired, such as those of the Renaissance. Read a list of many Examples of Bias in Wikipedia."

And to top it all off, check out their kids section

My favorite is the atheist Mr.Gruff.

That is all. Theemperor 21:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the image, but it was too much. We removed the GIFs from the header; that had to go too. Phantom Hoover 21:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

OMG 24.14.72.223 22:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This has to be parody, the kids section is the giveaway. The creation science giraffe is especially over the top.PitchBlackMind 22:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Were Neanderthals the "monkey men" Evolutionists keep talking about?" "No! Neanderthals were humans with abnormal bone growth due to very advanced age and Flood-cloud-related rickets!" headdeskdeaddesk 24.14.72.223 22:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's for real, sadly. Oh, and the images?  Just link to them, and save to your HD to upload at RW when it's back? Human 23:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, surely not... Isn't it done by the same people who brought us Landover Baptist? --Jeeves 23:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You may be right... my Poe meter is in for repairs. Human 23:54, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is listed on our Poe's Law article on the test yourself list, it is one of the parodies. The members list is the give away. Dr. Richard Paley showed up during the Lenski debacle on Conservapedia, I think Lenski mentioned him in the letter.  Pi 00:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, well, I hadn't memorized the article, and, well, couldn't check :( Richard Paley, isn't he rather "well known" for digging up dead people in Africa? Human 01:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Him possibly? Pi 02:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC) 02:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, now this is funny. Pi 02:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

hello
Back on line. Toast 05:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That wasn't me: it was Marghanita Laski on the phone. Toast 12:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we're alone now. TheoryOfPractice 05:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello. Pi 05:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Phew, I can breathe again, now. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 06:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi. So normal service is back.--Bob M 06:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The service might be normal - not sure about the users ;) Worm 07:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That might be too much to hope for.--Bob M 08:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course, it's Sept 1st, RWians can raise hell here again! Huzzar!! Armondikov 10:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * One is the loneliest number other than the number two... or something like that. Human 11:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm using this conveniently titled section to say hello.

Hello! NightFlare 20:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

An unexpected problem
Well, this is a bit rough. Just got a message from my main client cancelling my contract. They'd previously put off negotiations during the end of August, but it seems their HO has just obliged everyone to use one main supplier. Ha well. Have to look for other opportunities.--Bob M 12:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ouch. I hope something turns up for you soon. SuspectedReplicant 13:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bugger! Toast 13:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Though my previous client is being most helpful. Things are in motion. --Bob M 08:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Happy Spring Day
Spring is sprung! The grass is riz I wonder where My undies is Happy spring day to all Southerners. (That's real southerners, not you namby-pamby lot hovering above the equator.) -- Psy Whut? 17:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

World War Two...
...Britain declared war on Germany 70 years ago today. Just remembered. SuperJosh 18:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Close. Germany started kicking the stuffing out of Poland today. Britain/France declared war on the 3rd (My dad's birthday... he's 2 minutes older than WW2). -- Psy Whut? 18:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant - the German invasion. My bad. I haven't studied history for a few months now and my skull is beginning to eat the outside of my brain. SuperJosh 16:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Aubrey O'Day
Anyone see her on Hannity last night? He was JAQing off trying to corner her and she flat out told the truth...Hitler was a brilliant man.

Hannity almost crapped himself. It was hilarious. 19:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. Story and Video. SuspectedReplicant 19:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's a great example of revisionism on Hannity's part. He is incapable of acknowledging Castro or Hitler's intelligence. The other funny revisionism thing that happened recently was Glenn Beck saying Obama was running an "Oligarhy [sic]". Yeah... and a bush was in the white house the last 24 out of 32 years or something??? 207.67.17.45 19:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw video of the "OLIGARHY" thing - and the way he then desperately tried to make a point about "Czars" to make it appear as if he was making a point rather than making a f***-up. You yanks really seem to have much more fun with your TV than we do! SuspectedReplicant 20:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh? "O'Day was reminded that Castro is a murder". He is? Why is he still alive then? Crundy 07:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Enron
On More 4 (UK TV) now. Mr Bush was in it up to the neck. Toast 23:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh! that was interesting: Capitalism rules!!! ''(not) Toast 00:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Stumblin'
Dropped on this re a lib v con experiment. among other things: "Based on the results, he said, liberals could be expected to more readily accept new social, scientific or religious ideas." Interesting? Toast 02:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Which means that conservatives are less likely? Surely that is what defines them as being conservative? Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 06:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Praying for a profit
This caused me a certain amount of schadenfreude. 20,000 metric tonnes of gold? That's double the US reserve and worth $670bn at current prices. Just goes to show who the really gullible ones are. (Sorry to read that someone felt compelled to take their own life because of it though.) Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 10:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

lol WND
an excerpt from this story about right wingers getting fed up with WND. Joseph Farah goes on a masterful defense with this analysis:


 * Last Saturday, the Herald published an article titled, "Secret camps and guillotines? Groups make 'birthers' look sane." In that story, reporter Steven Thomma of McClatchy, a newspaper chain founded on the notion of promoting "public ownership of private property" (and doing its best to fulfill that mission, I might add), alleges "WorldNetDaily.com says that the government is considering Nazi-like concentration camps for dissidents."


 * To back up that complete misrepresentation, Thomma offers this excerpt from a brief news story in WND dating back to Feb. 1 and written by Jerome Corsi, a senior staff writer and two-time No. 1 New York Times best-selling author: "[A] proposal in Congress 'appears designed to create the type of detention center that those concerned about use of the military in domestic affairs fear could be used as concentration camps for political dissidents, such as occurred in Nazi Germany.'"


 * Notice the partial quote. What's left out are some key words. Let's look at the full, unexpurgated sentence in Corsi's original story: "The proposed bill, which has received little mainstream media attention, appears designed to create the type of detention center that those concerned about use of the military in domestic affairs fear could be used as concentration camps for political dissidents, such as occurred in Nazi Germany."


 * Corsi's is a much more nuanced and accurate statement – acknowledging the fears of many Americans recently maligned by the Homeland Security Department as "right-wing extremists" and potential terrorists – than the Herald's allegation that Corsi and WND claim "the government is considering Nazi-like concentration camps for dissidents." But perhaps you need to be slightly more literate – or concerned about the truth – than Thomma to see the distinction.

So it's not Corsi claiming that "the government is considering Nazi-like concentration camps for dissidents" because Thomma left out that the WND thinks the mainstream media wasn't covering it? Is it too early to read, or is Joseph Farah just flat-out crazy? 12:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Farah is not completely crazy, he has a history of this. Unless the Republicans win, we are three days away from some crisis that will allow the Democrats to take over the country, lock people in FEMA camps and outlaw Christianity. The reason I say he is not crazy is because I doubt he believes any of that, he just a hyper-partisan who hates the Democrats and peddles this crap for money. Look at the site, it is giant advertisement for books they write and DVDs they produce masquerading as a news site. They sell "end of the world"/"the new world order is coming" crap to people who are afraid their own shadow is a commie. Pi 11:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Health care
A quick question for the Americans if I may: What is it about a national health service that makes Americans angry? I mean surely if you don't want the terrible free health care then you can just get health insurance and get the premium package? Which is what you have to do at the moment to get any kind of health care? Is this just a case of the rich people saying "I can afford good health care, so f**k the poor"? Crundy 13:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's socialism. Socialism = Communism = Evil. But it seems like your last sentence is quite correct. Armondikov 14:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I still can't quite understand that. most likely as I'm a Brit and I've grown up with free Health Service. I can understand why some yanks might not want to accept welfare payments, as I've just been reading the paper and it seems the way Labour has arranged welfare has destroyed half the country (then again I was reading the Daily Mail and it's a very conservative-biased paper). But to say "no money = go die" is quite disgraceful. SuperJosh 16:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've actually argued with Americans (who can themselves afford health insurance) who claim that if they were poor they'd happily forgo lifesaving medical treatment for the sake of principle. I don't believe them. --Jeeves 16:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, because if it's a Christian-religious thing, Christians (and some other religions in general) think of life as sacred and usually do whatever they can to preserve it (unless they're Jehovah's and don't want other people's blood). SuperJosh 17:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My friend's father opposes free health care for the poor because his taxes will go up, and he's already struggling to get his four kids (my friends) the money they need to get into college. Pretty much 'just because you fucked up your life doesn't mean my kids should suffer'. I still side with the poor, and I find it hard to believe my friends can't get student loans. Apparently there's a limit on the amount allowed to be loaned per household, or something. - Clepper
 * I can understand where your mate's dad is coming from. It's not always that you necessarily want to kill, kill, kill, kill, kill the poor, just that the tax works it easier on oneself. Like every other issue in the world, it is a controversial one. SuperJosh 17:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why should society be expected to pay for his four kids? If he'd stopped at two, he'd probably be considerably better off. If I were to buy four cars would I expect people with only two cars to help with my car maintenance? It's one thing that annoys me about the NHS: funding IVF for people who want kids. I want a car, where's my funding? Toast 17:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Education ain't an expense, it's an investment. A country full of incredibly stupid people isn't much of a tax base. University is another thing that doesn't tend to bankrupt people in the UK either. Sure, there are fees now, and loans instead of grants but you're probably not going to run up debts exceeding £20K for a degree, which is less than the average graduate salary per annum. --Jeeves 17:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it more the freedom/libertarian thing. We like to think that they are quite similar to the Brits, Canucks or Antipodeans because they use a similar language and have similar popular culture but there really is a completely different mindset in the USA. You have to understand the anti-communism/socialism attitude is quite deeply embedded in the American psyche even if they don't always know what it really means, they've just been indoctrinated to think it's bad. RobS is a child of McCarthyism, he may be an extreme example but there are many who have been brought up to think along similar lines. So anything that's "socialised" automatically gets a bad rap even from those whom would actually benefit. I hate to upset our transatlantic cousins but to my mind there is actually a deep river of "propaganda" which irrigates American thinking that is almost Big Brother-like in it's mind-control effectiveness. It's not a government thing per se but something that has comes through the wealth-owning classes projecting their values onto the aspirational poor. The idea that anyone can become president is a mantra that is reiterated like winning the lottery but it requires money and a agreement to play the power-game. You may come from humble beginnings but you quickly leave them behind. Unlike Europe there is no large-scale grass-roots socialism movement so although we may like to think that the Democrats are the equivalent of the Labour party they are closer to the left-wing of the Tory party. The US two-party system makes it difficult for other groups to get a foothold, so those with any left of centre leanings end up supporting the Democrats by default. Before Obama got elected I actually thought it would be a bad thing for the Democrats because they were coming in at the wrong stage of the economic cycle. The financial excrement is about to hit the fan and the Democrats will get the blame even though the real culprits are the Republicans. Starting with Nixon who abandoned the gold standard and thereby gave rise to all the later financial excesses of Reagan and the shrubbery. I my opinion Obama is trying to do the right thing but at the wrong time. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 17:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, how liberals love to censor and control! -Teh Assfly, 19:55, 2 Septembver 2009AD (UTC)
 * @Toast - I mostly agree with you about IVF. I believe the NHS typically pays for one course of IVF treatment, which I think is fair enough. Some Health Authorities pay for more though, which does piss me off. When you get the couples on the news whining that they've had three free cycles, still haven't got preggers, but demand more for free because "having children is a right"... I'm afraid my only response is "No it isn't". SuspectedReplicant 17:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My missus had a hysterectomy before I met her so there has never been any question of little Khants running around. So yes it does annoy me as well when people demand multiple IVF treatments on the NHS especially if they've already had kids by previous partners. As far as I'm concerned kids are a lifestyle choice. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 18:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "...there is actually a deep river of "propaganda" which irrigates American thinking that is almost Big Brother-like in it's mind-control effectiveness. It's not a government thing per se but something that has comes through the wealth-owning classes projecting their values onto the aspirational poor." That pretty much sums it up. Reagan managed to convinced the "working class" and the poor that government could only mess up their lives more, while also promoting the "I intend to rich one day, so I don't want their taxes raised" silliness (people really do think this). Human 19:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Genghis - you're right about the significant difference in healthcare and finanical issues between America and Britain - I was actually saying that to PC earlier on Liberapedia. I guess the platform differences between Labour and Democrats, and Tories and Republicans are so because America suffered a whole lot more than Britain from the Reds-under-the-Beds scare - RobS Conservapedia is living proof of this. I gues it didn't affect Britain so badly because we were already starting our welfare state at the beginning of the 20th century. SuperJosh 20:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I like to think these arguments don't sway British people because by and large we know something about history. The things American conservatives want, like an abolition of the welfare state and its responsibilities shouldered by private charities, have all been tried and have been dismal failures at ensuring a reasonable society. Indeed, these things are the very root cause of the communism they claim to so despise, both in Europe's past and in the present of the developing world. You only have to look at the vast base of support for modern Maoism amongst India's underclass to see that. --Jeeves 20:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * While I agree that people who need help should get it, I also believe the welfare system in general needs reforming in Britain. Like Ace said when he mentioned a while ago about his freakout at some lazy protesting bastard, I believe if you have the ability to work you should - obviously circumstances taken into account. No bloody government handouts, as taking advantage of the welfare system has got our country into the state it is - reading the paper earlier, we're one of the highest places in the western world for binge drinking, smoking, teenage pregnancy. I'll admit I'm guilty of all three the first two, but I think the welfare state has led to lazy unemployed parents letting their kids run around and do whatever they want. SuperJosh 20:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Gee, stereotype much there? Margret Thatcher got herself elected on just that platform. You might remember how well her "reforms" worked out. Your lazy stereotyping ignores the much more typical cases, like my friend who wsa unfairly banned from driving when some stupid bint rearended him after he'd had half a pint, and as consequence lost his job as a builder. By and large, the "welfare queens" of popular legend don't exist. --Jeeves 20:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

(O/D - getting way too deep) My dad was a Liberal (ie, pre-Lib Dem) councillor back in the day. He spent a huge amount of time helping out two families in my hometown that seemed to spend their entire time ****ing each other and spitting out new kids. I was in the same class at school with two of them. At the age of 9, they knew that they were "due" a new council house because of the number of people in the one they had.

While I would love to agree with Jeeves that "welfare queens" don't exist, I'm afraid they do. It still doesn't mean that welfare is a bad idea though. SuspectedReplicant 20:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know enough about it to get into a proper debate, but the reform I'm talking about is to deal with those who SuspectedReplicant mentioned - if people are in perfectly good health but do not work when they're able, then they shouldn't live on handouts. There's nothing Thatcherite about it - simply stop work-shy freeloaders (as you know Jeeves, Mark once said to Jez!)SuperJosh 20:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I just add something to the whole IVF debate? Considering that there are thousands of orphan / abandoned babies throughout the whole world who need a good home, I find it extremely selfish of couples to start demanding exceptionally expensive treatments to have children who have their DNA. If you can't have kids and want some, do something good and give that love to someone who hasn't had any so far. Crundy 20:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're totally ignoring all the reasons why an able bodied person, even one who has been offered work, might perfectly legitimately choose not to. Single mothers, especially single mothers of large broods and who are only able to obtain low paid work, will often find that childcare expenses exceed their earning potential. It's completely irresponsible to label these people "freeloaders." There is no point punishing these people by taking away their benefits. That's just masking the symptoms, plus inflicting unjust child poverty. You need to address the root causes of family breakdown and poor family planning if you want to tackle the problem. --Jeeves 20:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Right. I live in south London. Some people round here will work as long and as hard as it takes to earn as much as they need to get the best for their kids. Some will sit on their asses and then shout "Well! We're entitled!!!" when they don't get exactly what they want. Most are in the middle ground. It all comes down to: do you penalize the children of group b because of the actions of their parents? SuspectedReplicant 21:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is straying into a different topic. Sex education in the UK does a pretty poor job at preventing teenage pregnancies but there are those young girls (and it also applies to the US - see Freakanomics) who have no aspirations other than to be mothers. Some of it is a vicious spiral but in the long term it boils down to providing a decent education system, good role models and incentives not to sponge on the state. Although some politicians on the right have placed the blame on single mothers I think that this report today indicates that teenage boys are just as culpable. Unfortunately red-top tabloids and lads mags do not encourage a respectful relationship between the sexes. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 21:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting back on topic - I've heard it suggested that the US government pays more on a per capita basis for health care for its citizens than european countries do, but as a large proportion of this payment disappears into the medical companies profits the result is worse. Is there any truth is this?--Bob M 21:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, absolutely true. The US government spends $500 more per capita providing non-universal healthcare than the UK spends providing universal care. Medical outcomes wise, there's precious little to choose between the systems for most comparable diagnoses. However, I suspect if you compared outcomes for medicaid/medicare patients vs. the NHS, the NHS would win hands down. Sadly, that isn't tracked in any useful sense. I don't know where the money goes in the US, but it certainly isn't to provide superior care. With private health care included, per capita health spend in the US is more than $3000 higher than the UK. (Oh yeah, and to add insult to injury, medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US compared. In the UK, bankruptcy due to medical expenses is more or less unknown.) --Jeeves 22:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * While nationalised services like the NHS may not be 100% efficient they don't pay dividends to their share holders, they pay lower salaries and also pay less for drugs because of bulk buying. I used to get BUPA insurance through my agency and paid extra for my wife - about £450 per year. When that stopped, because of IR30 rules, I looked at buying private health insurance out of my own pocket and was facing a bill of almost £2000 a year for myself and the same again for my wife. Of course that would be subject to limits so when people say that private is better in the UK, I ask whether they are part of a company scheme or pay directly out of their own pocket. When my wife had her stem cell transplant and was in an isolation room (on the NHS) she even got free phone calls thanks to the Friends of the Hospital (obviously one was aware of the fact and was expected not to abuse the privilege). Recently I had some dental surgery at a private hospital and while the conditions were very pleasant it did cost me a considerable sum. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 22:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In addition to the above stats, the "non-universal" system in the US leaves 1/6 of the population with no "health insurance". And those bankrupties?  Many of those people had health insurance, and either got kicked out or still had to saddle far more than they could afford of the costs.  Yeah, the US "system" is a travesty.  2k quid a year for a plan?  That's like, less than $200 a month, right?  That's what the last plan I had cost ($300/mo) before I gave up - 12-15 years ago. Human 01:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you lived a few score miles to the south, in Taxachusetts, without coverage, you would be paying the "breathing tax" along with all the others. Come tax time, if you can't prove you had an insurance plan in place, the state charges you an equivalent penalty. Next thing you know, we will have to buy walking licenses to cross the street. 66.189.117.133 01:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Hm, is having children a right or a privilege? Once Rationalwiki comes back it might make an interesting debate. Two perfectly rational agents should never disagree and what not. - Clepper
 * At BON, MA is doing the best they can given a totally disastrous general situation. They are trying to make sure all residents have access to health care.  Is it a good system?  No, not really.  Mostly because they can't utilize the constitutional powers of the federal government to tax the obscenely rich to pay for basic services. Human 04:39, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Twas ever thus. The very wealthy have the means to influence the kleptocrats in office, as do the various insurance entities responsible for the high overhead associated with delivering the care. Not totally responsible of course, since there are systemic factors (oh, say, capitalism?) that encourage the high cost/performance ratio we get. I'm not sure how the recently fashionable strident polarization of US civic discourse plays into it; cause, effect, or simple inconvenient fact? 66.189.117.133 13:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Evolutionary mutation rate...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8227442.stm Apparently between 100 and 200 for each person. I assume this is actual mutations rather than just swapping alleles around and so on. But it's interesting and quite a high figure showing the the number of chances that nature has for producing something good. Armondikov 14:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Bugger, EC'd. Each of us has at least 100 new mutations in our DNA, according to research published in the journal Current Biology. Looking forward to someone using this at a Whorehouse of Knowledge. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 14:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Considering there's like 3 billion base pairs in our genome, it isn't that many. Though I suppose just one frame shift in the wrong place could produce some fairly bizarre aberrations. Or just kill the organism. Whatever. --Jeeves 16:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the question is what kind of mutations. I guess that the vast majority are ether irrelevant or in non-coding DNA - that's where I hope mine are anyway.  The chances of producing something very bad are a lot better than the chances of producing something good. --Bob M 17:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There's a really good (and recent) article on the subject here (to which I was directed by Pharyngula). Cue Y chromosome-related jokes from the ladies present :) SuspectedReplicant 18:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, that considered it's not many. But for the people who go "all mutations are bad" well, 100-200 in each individual (individuals who are otherwise perfectly healthy) it's massive kick in the teeth. If you want to take the view that all mutations are bad, you'd only expect maybe one or two that were present, so hundreds per person is high in that sense at least. Armondikov 14:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Vaccination story
Go here and watch the clip or read the transcript of the whooping cough epidemic story. This was broadcast in Australia last evening. RagTop 23:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Blarrrgh
I just finished eating the best pizza ever... a BBQ chicken pizza saturated with napkins. Yummers. Javascap 00:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This kind of valuable information is what we live for! Human 03:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I Want one
of these Toast 03:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * eggselent! Human 03:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've got one. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 05:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (But not as big.)

stumblin
Why does this make me laugh immoderately? Toast 07:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Because everything ever done by Gary Larson is pure, unadulterated comedy gold.  The greatest cartoonist ever, in my book.   DogP 16:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

World War Two (again)
NOW it was declared seventy years ago today... by which I mean Britain declaring war on Germany. SuperJosh 11:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, happy birthday to Psy's dad. Crundy 13:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * hey, he made his three-score and ten. -- Psy Whut? 17:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. Plus, I made that edit at the hax0r hour lololol!!111 Crundy 12:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Jon Voight on Obama
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob5XM2Xe9so Wow. Just wow.] -- Psy Whut? 19:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Tom Waits Ol' 55 IS a great song. A real "wow" song. Don't see the connection to Obama or washed-up actors, though...TheoryOfPractice 22:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hehehehe... Human 23:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh buggery... wrong copy paste. Try this one instead. -- Psy Whut? 17:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Damn, remember when Voight was cool? When he was in stuff like Runaway Train and Deliverance? I miss those days.

Language
QI:
 * Arthur (Smith)
 * Do you know, I can say, in Danish, "I have spilled coffee on the anteater."


 * Stephen (Fry)
 * I would like you to do that for us now.


 * Arthur
 * Jeg har spildt kaffe på Myresluger''!

That's all. Toast 22:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I can say "hello" and "thank you" in Russian! "Zrazvytchye" and "Da Svedanya". Although that's almost definitely not how to spell the roman alphabet interpretation... SuperJosh 11:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Although I have no clue how to spell it, I can say "fuck me with a cucumber" in Swedish. (Google says it's "knulla mig med en gurka") Armondikov 12:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I made a slight language boo-boo. In the supermarket checkout queue a very sweaty, smelly manager-looking type (from said supermarket) walked to the checkout girl in the aisle next to us and said something to her. I said (quite loud) to my wife "Uh duh duh, pursino madour chod" ("Urgh, sweaty mother f**ker" in Gujurati), and then turned round to see our checkout girl was asian, and smirking at me. Bugger. Crundy 13:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Nothing changes is creationism land
I've been reading Augustine of Hippo's City of God this week and amongst the general hilarity this chapter stands out in particular. Pah, those idolatrous Egyptians have records from back before the world began? Lets invent a reason to compress their timetables to fit our divinely inspired one. Now they're doing it with Egyptology and radiometric dating. That's progress! --Jeeves 11:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

IM
Anyone use instant messaging around here? I use MSN but I don't know if it's compatilable with yahoo messenger or whatever. SuperJosh 12:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They tend not to be compatable with each other, but you can get free all-in-one clients which you give your credentials for all your different IM accounts to and it seems as though you are using a single protocol. Don't know of any good ones though. Crundy 13:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Years ago I used something called Miranda that did them all supposedly. Pi 13:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pidgin. It's good.--PitchBlackMind 16:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pidgin or Adium for Mac (not sure if Pidgin supports Growl notifications but Adium does) or Trillium for Windoze. Nutty Roux 16:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I use only IRC through Chatzilla. Phantom Hoover 16:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In days of yore I was a contributor to pidgin. Worst developer attitudes evar. Maybe I should see if there are still some of lines of my code in there. --Jeeves 16:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Archiving
Actually a bit of archiving would be a good idea. I'm at 34% of my monthly bandwith now. I figure 50% by the 6th, which barring accidents, should leave with me enough to spare for the month - but cutting the page down wouldn't be a bad idea.--Bob M 18:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just shoved some into the archive, but with "Healthcare" being pretty massive but not particularly old, and stuck in the middle, it makes the cut off point a little difficult. Unless you're happy to say that 3rd Sept is old enough to say it's finished. Armondikov 19:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've said it before and I'll say it again: you should enable output compression on the server. It would save you quite some bandwith. Look into enabling zlib support in PHP. --79.30.235.165 20:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the idea. I did have a look at that and there are two problems. 1. I think it may be beyond my limited technical ability. 2. Looking at the instructions, I'm no sure that my service provider gives me sufficient access to make such changes.--Bob M 07:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it's on the cards and Bob will ask around for it at some point but probably has other things to do. Also, as I was feeling slightly bored and wanting to edit something (yes, Wikidot is right, editing wikis is addictive), I archived the healthcare one too. Probably screwing your bandwidth in the process by looking at the other archives to see what they were headed with. It'll all be over soon :) Armondikov 20:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Bob, can you get rid of the background image on every page? Human 21:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The book background? That's about 7kb (the TP logo is 8 kb and the CC-BY-SA logo is 5kb) and is probably cached locally so it wouldn't make too much of a difference to what the server has to deal with I think. Armondikov 21:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's the 5th, we're at 40%, shouldn't be too much of a problem. It's been interesting to see how RW much chew bandwidth though.--Bob M 10:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

REWARD
I will pay $10,000 to anyone who can prove that Glenn Beck did not rape and murder a young woman in 1990. 19:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I choose which young woman? --79.30.235.165 20:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The easiest thing to do would be to try and find the identity of the woman he allegedly raped and killed in 1990. If no possible rape victim can be found, it might not be true. 21:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Porting to RW
Probably need to think about the things to be moved over. All the specific RW stuff and their archives obviously. I'll then delete them here.

Everything from the student Bar will need to be cleaned out, but I think I'll keep the page as there are some external links to it. I'll leave a note up for a couple of months with a link to RW saying it is now active. Also it might be a good idea to have a student bar anyway, though I'll need to disinfect it and refurbish it after the RW departure.

User accounts. I was thinking that these would be removed, but now that I think about it some more there is no obvious reason why they should be. If they are never used they will just disappear into wiki history after a time. So perhaps best to leave it up to individuals to put "retired" or just fade away or whatever. I think all the talk pages are going to magically copied over to RW. Is that correct?--Bob M 10:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Nx is going to merge the page histories before RW goes back online. Pi 10:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, it's time to start thinking about this.
 * First I need you to put on all pages that should be moved to RationalWiki. Whether you want your userpage and user talk page moved over is up to you.
 * If you add your userpage to the export category it will replace your userpage at RationalWiki. Don't panic! The pre-crash history will remain intact, so you can revert to the pre-crash version.
 * Next, there's the issue of differing usernames and page titles. I started listing those on my userpage, but stopped. You can help out with that, but please make sure the info is correct (and remember that wikis are case sensitive i.e. JeevesMkII and JeevesMKII are not the same thing - and if I import the edits with an incorrect username, the only way to reassign them is with manual database hacking). We don't need to rename them on the wiki, I can do that in the xml file with some search and replace.
 * Then there's the archives that have been created here. It would be best to do those manually, with copy-paste (since archives contain no history anyway), so make sure they are not in the RW export category.
 * Finally, there's the problem of edits while I'm doing the moving. Unless we coordinate things perfectly, I cannot really prevent edits to RationalWiki before I'm done with this. They are not a serious problem, but they will make things slightly more messed up. E.g. if someone replies on the RW saloon bar to a topic that has been there before the crash, after I merge the articles, the history will look like this:
 * history before crash -> new page: student bar -> history of student bar -> one edit which replaces student bar with the old saloon bar with the new post added
 * Also, I'll lock all the articles in the export category before I start so that no edits get lost. Anyone who has a sysop account here please don't edit them.
 * Once I've imported WIGO CP, I'll add the img tags. If you have a capture, just click the red img tag to get the file name and upload the image. When you upload it, please include the http address (right click - copy link address on the link before the img tag in the wigo entry) and put the image into Category:August 2009 Conservapedia screencaps (already exists) or Category:September 2009 Conservapedia screencaps (I'll create this one). Do not put the image into Category:Conservapedia screencaps - it took me half a day and 4000 edits to clean it up. Alternatively, ignore everything I said and leave it to me to fix things :)
 * @Bob:
 * User accounts cannot be removed, unless their edits are reassigned to another user. Removing their edits would require serious surgery to your database, and would leave article histories completely messed up.
 * I can run a bot to delete all the pages in the export category if you'd like.
 * Nx 11:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, if you bot can do it, fine. I'd like to keep (or if it's easier re-create) the student bar.--Bob M 14:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That depends on whether you want the history hidden or visible to anyone. Nx 14:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Need to think about it. It would be nice for nostalgic reasons; on the other hand it really has no logical reason to be here. Probably be best to wipe it I suppose.  :-(   --Bob M 16:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I'm not sure it's a good idea to run a bot on it. I don't know what to do with user talk pages which are moved to RW for example. Should they also stay here? Nx 07:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just pulled all the archive pages out of the RW|Export and into just the RW category. The "active" talk pages are still in the RW|Export cat. What about the actual WIGO pages etc.? The vote formats won't necessarily blend in, or will we just archive out all the WIGO's with a separate page for what was done here and start fresh? Armondikov 12:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Because of the vote template, it's trivial to actually add the votecp tag to them with a search and replace. Have wigo entries been archived as well? Nx 12:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I see there's already an archive for WIGO CP. I'll unarchive the WIGO's before I move them to RW. Nx 13:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I'll let you take care of that manually. I've added the RW template to the archive page anyway to make sure it doesn't get left behind. Armondikov 15:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Nx, when you are doing this, I think both wikis will need to be locked - or at least, not edited, as you point out. So I think it is best that until you are finished with the porting, RW not be visible. Archives: is there anyway to "skip" over the archive making (ie, large deletions from the bar, etc.) so all the "adding" edits are copied over but none of the "subtracting" ones? Then just run pibot so archives end up where they really should be? Because copying the ad hoc archive over from here is gonna make a mess. It sounds to me like you night have it figured out, I'm just asking. Human 22:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is, I have to be able to see the wiki, which means you will be able to see it too. And it will be after midnight here when Trent comes home. As for archives, there's no way to do that, because with every edit the whole page is saved to the database. Archives should not be in the export category, we'll just move the contents of those to RationalWiki with copypaste, because they contain no valuable history. Nx 06:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OK on the archives, I see. As far as editing while you are working, I'd suggest some big ugly banners saying "thou shalt not edit" while you work? Human 06:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)We could just use the site message to leave a note requesting nobody edits it during the transfer, although that would just invite vandals and trolls to come stuff it up. By the way was the site message used to create the intercom, because you can't have both at the same time? Pi 06:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it be best if I de-sysop everybody but you so as to prevent accidental edits to sensitive pages?--Bob M 06:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is your site, you can de-sysop everyone if you wish. Pi 06:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll ask Trent to lock the RW database (I can still import with mediawiki's command line tools), as for Teflpedia, I'll lock the export pages before I start. I don't think there's a need to desysop everyone here, and if a sysop edits a locked page worst case is that their edit will not be moved to RationalWiki. Nx 06:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

50 Greatest Comedy Films
As voted by the British public. It was on telly last night and I caught the top 14 - I was pleased to see that the top 7 films were some of my personal favourites. Monty Python's Life of Brian came number one obviously - what else could it possibly have been!? - but I think Ghostbusters deserved a better spot than 24, especially with Bill Murray in the lead role. "I make it a rule never to get involved with posessed people... actually it's more of a guideline than a rule... wait, no, I can't, it sounds to me like there's all ready at least two people in there." SuperJosh 11:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A repeat I think. I saw it at least two years ago. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 14:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

BNP to give up racism!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6820847.ece Well, not exactly, but it's getting there. Extra points for playing the Orwell card with "Undemocratic Orwellian equality laws" (and quite incorrectly, I don't think Oceania enforced equality like that, IIRC). Armondikov 13:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I fixed the link as it was broken. After finding this, I don't think we can ever say the BNP will be "giving up" racism. If only my socks weren't blocked on CP I'd love to send this to Andy and say "these are the people you'd say would get your vote on education alone, you retard." Sorry for that, but the man has the same IQ as a starfish. SuperJosh 13:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we can say the BNP will be as hostile as ever to ethnic minorities. This isn't a case of them voluntarily giving up their racism, but rather being forced to by a court decision. Instead, I dare say we'll see a version of the old "No Irish, No Blacks" stance of racist landlords from a few decades ago: "Oh I'd love to sign you up, Mr Black Person, but I just used my last membership form".
 * As for good BNP links, I hope you've all seen this (actually for the interviews rather than the pics)? SuspectedReplicant 14:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Every black, asian and jewish person in the country should now sign up and elect only ethnic minorities to be their official candidates and local leaders, and vote for policies like a closer relationship with the EU etc. --Jeeves 14:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This constitution rewrite will probably increase the powers of the executive, allowing them to select their candidates without local approval and so forth. The next fight will be discrimination about the selections. Pi 14:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice idea Jeeves! (The "BNP gives up racism!" headline was more a joke, in case people were wondering :P.) Armondikov 15:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Replicant: That is probably the best webpage, ever, in the history of the interwebs. For example:


 * When people say the BNP is a fascist party, what do you think?
 * Fascist – I don’t understand that word.


 * Think of Nazi Germany, or 1930s Italy.
 * I can’t even remember when that happened really, but I’m against them anyway.


 * You’re against who?
 * The Germans. I know that sounds evil… I was brought up that way.


 * But not the Nazis?
 * No, I don’t agree with that at all.


 * What the f**king hell? Get idiots involved in politics and the BNP is what you end up with. Crundy 21:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

A Whorehouse of Knowledge
I've been wanting to ask this for a while... Why do so many of you bother with aSK? Is it because PJR was a voice of (semi-)reason over at CP? If so, I'm afraid you're on to a loser. PJR is just as mad as any other YECretin and is never going to change his mind. He will always find time to point out the motes in your own eyes while ignoring the beams in his own. It looks like Human has finally got that, but there are still several people trying to engage PJR.

Please, I'd like to know what people are hoping to achieve. If there's a chance of making a difference then I'll finally create an account, but right now it seems as if there are several people banging their heads on the walls of PJR (et al)'s insanity with no hope of changing anything. SuspectedReplicant 14:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Cos aSoK is like CP used to be before the night of the blunt knives. Full of insane people who you could prod for lulz. It might not be productive, but it's more fun than wandalism. --Jeeves 14:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh. If it's mainly for the lulz then... okay. It seemed to be a bit more than that in many cases though - your demolition of PJR's "most attested event in history" idiocy was particularly fun to read. SuspectedReplicant 14:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Whilst we are on the topic of ASK, an idea floated on Human's talkpage is that we replace WIGO ASK with a more general WIGO Wikis, seeing as our trip abroad has allowed us to explore other horizons. Some suggestions included watching, Wikisynergy and WikiIndex, but we also had the failed CAM and Metapedia ones we could mix in. Throw in a few more we could have a little all purpose WIGO going that would allow us to ride out CPs fall a little easier. Pi 14:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that. It seems like a great idea to me. There's not enough to keep the aSK WIGO ticking, but combining it with other storehouses of idiocy might help. SuspectedReplicant 14:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I participate at ASK from time to time because it's fun. I have no absolutely no hope of changing anybody's mind. If you believe something becasue of faith, how is reasoned argument going to change you mind? Obviously if you have faith then you must know that the argument must be wrong. But it's fun seeing the responses.
 * To answer the other point - yes, a generalised WIGO would be good. I'm not sure that WikiIndex would give much to report on in the long term though. It's only notable at the moment because of things associated with the RW server meltdown and the personalities who have temporally taken up lodging.--Bob M 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely, anything that facilitates RW's scope expanding is good by me. CP, obviously, would stay separate for now, but the "wikisphere" would be a nice one to go with blogs and clogs. "Forumsphere" too perhaps, but that would require watching things a lot closer I reckon. Armondikov 15:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I walked away when I noticed the only people he was sysoping were from CP. I realised then that it wouldn't be a broader-based wiki than Conservapedia - it would inevitably end up repeating CP's mistakes. Totnesmartin 16:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "looks like Human has finally got that" Well, really, I had it from the beginning. YECiots never change their "minds".  All I do over at AWK is gawk, read the great comments people like Jeeves and Sterile and Bob make and laugh at PJR's twisted "logics".  What happened last night was I came across a thing to quote to Philip, and finally figured out a way to word that diff to my user page.
 * As far as WIGOwikisphere, yeah, it's a great idea. It helps deal with say, wikiindex, being interesting only once in a while - it gives us a place to put the item of interest other than the saloon bar.  Folding wigoAWK and wigo4R into it makes sense to me.  Do we want to use "wikisphere"?  PS, this also gives us a place to comment on user number 186's Ediocy on wikipedia. Great idea overall, whoever had it. Human 21:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm getting attached to "wikisphere", it sort of merges with the other two terms that are already in use. And of course, what happens with a wiki tends to be a lot different to forums and blogs so it warrants a separate arena. And of course, sometimes shit happens at Wikipedia too that's worth mentioning, but only people who are also regular WP editors will probably notice it. Armondikov 21:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's growing on me, too. Human 00:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It'd give somewhere for Ed's WP stoopids too. Toast 00:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Scroll up three or so comments. But, yes, right now they sorta get lost at the SB. Human 00:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What is going on in the wikisphere? has too good of a ring to it to pass up. Pi 00:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now we have RW back, we should crack on and set this up. I see two options; Converting WIGO ASK to WIGO WikiSphere or start a new one and use WIGO ASK and WIGO 4R as archives? 15:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Best bible verse EVER
Hosea 9:7 "The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred." Javascap 16:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ...


 * Deu 17:2-7 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard [of it], and enquired diligently, and, behold, [it be] true, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, [even] that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you..
 * Kektklik 23:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So much for the loving tolerant god I was told to love as a kid. Javascap 23:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're thinking of Jesus... Kektklik 01:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No, no, no, this is the best Bible verse ever: Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
 * I raise that a bit, and bring in Teh Jebus, Matthew 15:-7, "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." That is one nice Jesus... 15:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

My day
I went to a funeral of a friend of my parents whom I have known since the 60s. Opposite the cemetery/crematorium there was a cafe called "Hell's Kitchen". Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 20:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What an appropriate place to build a cafe called Hell's Kitchen. My condolensces. SuperJosh 17:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Was there an aggressive, wrinkle-faced ex-footballing chef taking his shirt off while talking to a camera? 15:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

WikiSynergy pulled down
http://www.wikisynergy.com/

"This site is being shut down. The reason is that the threat level to the founder is unacceptable. Threats have been made to attack the my reputation in real life. Although I believe that the friend who made the threats and then apologized will keep their word, that does not eliminate the threat from others. If even one of the several people who know who I really am make an accidental slip (as already happened once), I could be subject to a campaign of harassment and lies which will deeply effect my life. I had planned to continue my campaign to eliminate pseudoscience from the skeptical community, by providing a place where skeptics and believers could hash out their differences in a collegial environment. Still, there will be those whose ideas we debunk, because they are unscientific. The site is intrinsically a place for controversy and dispute. I know that in the future, the risk would only get worse. I cannot risk my real-world life, or my real-world material existence, in order to help the arena of fringe ideas progress to a higher level.

It is possible that the site may be put back up, so please watch this space. But as of now, WikiSynergy is gone." Human 03:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

What were the said comments? Theemperor 04:10, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Who knows, but some "people" were very heavy-handed in their demands that PS remove various things (mostly harmless) from the wiki. Sadly, PS acquiesced, which of course only invites more threatening behavior.  Great, in two weeks we've killed how many wikis? Human 05:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Damn shame, too. Now, I fear, that my prediction about a certain green goose trashing RationalWiki instead of WS will come true.  Now more than ever.  Besides that, it wasn't really a bad wiki for promoting pseudosciences.Gooniepunk2005 05:10, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I liked the place and will miss it, I hope PS figures out a way to put it back up. I think PS is over-reacting a bit to lame threats from internet jerks.  Oh, and Goonie, you think that lame goose is any match for the combined forces of the wikians that are rational? Human 05:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not!!! Especially with the numbers of syspos and 'crats we have, compared to the two that WikiSynergy had.  I actually sent PS an e-mail telling him to feel free to join us at RationalWiki once it is back up.Gooniepunk2005 05:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Although now, as if it wasn't obvious anyways, I can, at least, admit my sock: I was the one known as "The Janitor." But I think everyone but goose poop caught that one.Gooniepunk2005 05:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A shame. What was the stuff that some "people" wanted deleted? Or would that simply compound the problem?  (Now I think about it I can make a good guess though.)--Bob M 06:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I just think the bullies got the better of her. They bullied, she acquiesced, so they bullied more. Assholes (sorry Bobwiki). I'm trying to communicate with her and get her over the paranoia hump if I can. Oh, and Goonie, you know PS is not a "he", don't you?  And she's already on RW?  Idea: Port all of WS to a namespace on RW for a bit where us tougher hombres and homgals can drive off the trolls? Human 07:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There is something to be said for the power of the mob in resisting bullying. That's one reason Terry Koeckritz prefers to do it behind closed doors. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 09:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised at how abrupt the whole thing is. Oh, well. I'll have to put the thing about all the molecules going to one side of the room on RW at some point.  Sterile 11:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I really really wanted to comment on that but I never found it again! It was a poor "example" since it's not possible - as soon as the molecules are even slightly "out of balance" the pressure will be higher in one area, making its molecules leave for the lower pressure area(s). Human 22:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you are right about that. My point was that even if we just use a simple model-assume that molecules are on one side of the room 50% of the time, how often will they be on one side, no real "chemistry" involved--that events like that just aren't going to happen (0.0000 ... 1 x 1023 0's 1% of the time, essentially never)--and, as you said, they would fly apart at a rate 100s of miles per second, such that in half a microsecond, we'd be back to normal.  No paranormalsupernatural dude required.  Sterile 02:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that is sort of chemistry. It sounds like statistical thermodynamics, the model that explains why entropy always increases. But the numbers you'd need to quote would be powers of powers (possibly another "of powers" on top). :S Armondikov 18:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you don't. Entropy is an energy phenomenon, and the partition functions you imply are about energy. (An increase range of translational energy equates to an increased density of states, hence more available microstates and more entropy.) The two are clearly related, but the argument I was making was purely based on a probability argument. They amount to the same answer, but are slightly different. Sterile 18:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to point out that I hate thermodynamics. And I was taught stat-therm by a maniac, who, despite being an incredibly fun guy, can't teach for shit. So my understanding of it is pretty much limited to "you have more disordered states than ordered states, go figure". With any luck I'll never need to use it again. 15:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Idiots Convention
Now this looks like fun. I have already planned my itinerary. Looks like a fun week. Pi 01:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * How to stop abortions: a new approach (DVD: Maafa 21 & Discussion)
 * How to deal with supremacist judges
 * How to stop socialism in health care
 * How to defend America vs. missile attack
 * How the media can help us take back America
 * How to recognize living under Nazis & Communists

Damn I want to attend that so badly! Really! Theemperor 01:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Aw, gee, I wonder why she didn't invite her prize idiot son to give an hour of monotonic moronicism that we could transcribe? Human 02:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't we have a set of videos of him talking at one stage at things like this? Besides Aschlafly this convention have all my favourite clogoists. I would love to go to this. Pi 02:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Andy will be speaking at How to use the Internet effectively: Internet 101, as the creator of teh largest online Christian Conservativetm encyclopedia. Theemperor 02:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously? You had better not be yanking my chain. Pi 03:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You've been yanked. Hey, we should send CUR! Human 03:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We only have a few days to get him into the early bird registration. Where is he these days? I saw him over at wikiindex once. Pi 03:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been looking for to A Storehouse of Cheetahs, but to no avail. Theemperor 03:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a theory that it's Lumeniki. Phantom Hoover 08:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that guy use to have a wiki on ScribbleFarm, a bit pre-CUR. Pi 08:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he's probably just retired from the wiki world, or he's socking on RW. As for "how to take back America"... a bunch of white, right-wing, McCarthyite, borderline racists saying the same thing over and over again: "Jesus, abortion, terrorism, Obama, Jesus, abortion, terrorism, Obama, Jesus, abortion, terrorism, Obama, Jesus, abortion, terrorism, Obama..." SuperJosh 11:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell... "How to understand Islam"... I really hope someone puts videos of this clusterf*ck on the net. SuperJosh 11:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I bet no more than 10 minutes into the opening speech Phyllis Schlafly proves Godwin's Law and they don't return from that point for the rest of conference. I reckon I it will set new standards in Godwinian mechanics. Pi 11:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * SJ you don't know what you're talking about - you missed out homosexuality. Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 14:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, they'll have to be bootlegged and mirrored because you can guarantee that if they posted them officially, the comments section would be down. But keeping an eye on this should be an RW specialty. At least for the politics junkies. Armondikov 19:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it's definitely something we should try and get our grubby, left-wing hands on, as we did such a good job with Andy on Eagle Forum. 10:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

RationalWiki
Any chance that RationalWiki will come back soon? Proxima Centauri 14:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. It's gone forever. Don't bother checking back later. --Jeeves 14:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Trent got sued and is now in jail for the next 42 years. Now scurry back to Liberapedia and stay there.  Theemperor 15:06, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What went wrong? Where are the backups? I hope you're joking, I had trouble with Ratwiki but it will be sad if all that secular information vanishes from teh Innertubes. I know His Imperial Majesty is joking as it would take longer than a few weeks for a case to get to court. Proxima Centauri 15:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, when I was very mad at you, I wanted to delete you from RationalWiki and accidentally deleted everything, including the backups. Nx 15:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well little Nixie, that just shows you shouldn't do irrational things when you're angry. Proxima Centauri 16:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Moreover, after Trent was jailed the bailiffs claimed the server and backups and wiped them for resale. Phantom Hoover 18:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the server burned by the FBI after they mistook it as a stash for Class A drugs? Armondikov 18:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It was impounded because of all the kitty porn. (I think I spelled that correctly) Ⓖⓔⓝⓖⓗⓘⓢ 19:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

WHOOT! Welcome Home!
HURRAH! YAY FOR TRENT!!! YAY FOR BOB!!! YAY FOR ACE!!! Ace McWickedModel 500 23:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * what? Oh.. tomorrow. This'll be great. 23:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


 * Yay! 23:35, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Could someone go to my monobook.js and delete the import'recentchanges.js'? I am kind of worried it is the problem. Cheers. Pi. 23:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My long nightmare of productivity is over at last! Ace McWickedModel 500 23:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I was doing so well at work, guess that's over now. Rad McCool (talk) 23:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL Shot info (talk) 00:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yay, it's about time we get back online. I like being back at a more familiar wiki.Lord of the Goons (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Balloons.svg|50px|thumb|right]]
 * Well that was a nice holiday but it's good to get back home. 06:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, where I can finally add/edit all the stuff I was planning on doing while the site was down, but have since, naturally, forgotten... We should have kept a To Do list at Teflon. 14:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * [[image:33.gif]] 14:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wayhey! The gang's all here! Gosh it feels good to be back - I hope nobody's taken my favourite chair. I would just like to take this moment to say that Andy Schlafly linking to my blog from Conservapedia must be the biggest win evah! --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 17:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What a wonderful thing to wake up to. Goodbye productivity!-- 17:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The future
We really need to work out a way to prevent this happening next time Trent visits his homies. 03:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Trent, do you know what went wrong? -- Nx  / talk 07:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it a MW fault, or h/ware? Shot info (talk) 08:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if there's a physical thing wrong with the physical server, if you can't access the physical object, then you can't do much about it. It was probably just a minor issue that was compounded because Trent was away, short of giving his keys to someone nearby, there's probably not much you can do about it. 14:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It was a hardware issue, I have my suspicions, but no proof yet....I will be putting up a post in the next few days with some suggestions on what I think should be implemented to decrease the chances of this happening again. tmtoulouse 16:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Fairy tales
Some are over 2,600 years old. And some are from 4004 BCE (allegedly). Where's the difference? 11:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The difference: 2600 year old fairytales have no ASK and CP to "support" them and give us lulz. --Editor at CPOh, Finland! Why? 13:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Holy bloomin' crap
Stumbled upon this website, and though it might interest the rest of the mob. That is a large stack of monies.... 14:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's amazing, but I recall a reasonably old interview with a UK Chancellor or Shadow Chancellor or something, where the he said that when you get to this level, it pretty much stops being "real" money and becomes more of a concept. Which is sort of true, when a government pledges x million or billion to a cause, it's not like they're handing over that money, that instant, in cash, or even a cheque. It comes from different sources, goes different places, in different amounts at different times and it just gets confusing to think about (hence the comment that it's abstract and conceptual). But it's very interesting to see this much money visualised like this. 15:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Where's the next, biggest stack? The one that represents what Bush/Obama spent to bail out failed capitalists? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I would also have liked to see that... didn't Bush drop out 700 billion, and Obama 800 billion or so? Hmm... 15:07, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * For completeness, I'd like to see stacks of the average salary next to stacks representing government income. That'd be an eye-opener for some people. Or maybe stacks of the poor people's stuff next to the stacks of the rich ones... I suppose it's a fairly simple calculation that you could, with the expertise, put into a javascript and hook it up to some visualisation... 15:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Am I imagining things? I'm pretty sure I posted this thing about six months ago. Oh well. :( 16:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this amazing?
The first thing we do upon returning to RW is... ban one another silly. 16:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone like a dry sherry? The drinks are on me. 16:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Goodness no, just a Virgin Pina Colada, please. *bans Khant when he turns around. 16:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just get a machine to get your drinks. 17:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Virgin Piña Colada? Wimp. (Oh fuck, this is going to sound boring.) I had a proper Piña Colada at the bar where it was invented in Puerto Rico (only fresh pineapple and coconut milk does the business, and no paper brollies either). 17:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually that was several, not just 'a'. 17:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Recovery
The first thing we need to do is get re-indexed by search engines. If you have a blog or other dynamically updated site please consider picking your favorite RW page and tossing a link over our way to prod the bots. tmtoulouse 23:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Will this require fresh links or simply clicking on existing links? Either way, i can get some stuff rolling.-- [[Image:Asclepius staff.png|8px]]-PalMD -- 02:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The idea is to just post a blog post or something that google will index quickly with a link to an RW page, and hope that the bot following the link will realize the site is back up. tmtoulouse 02:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I googled Andrew Schlafly and we were nowhere to be seen. Sad. 03:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess I should remove my nasty public comments on Google now? 23:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * GENTLEMEN OPERATION BRAINS HAS BEGUN!!11!11 -- 23:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The over-written pages will need what was on them before the 8/19 or so diff that says "new page" copied to archives. 00:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Er, what's a wiki? What's this space for?  What's a user page?  I feels like an alternate reality.  Sterile 00:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, i got some new links up to get indexed. The first set went up on WCU last night, the next set goes up on science-based medicine this afternoon.-- [[Image:Asclepius staff.png|8px]]-PalMD -- 12:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added some too - the ones I thought important. maybe give us a list of which ones people think are most NB and we can add them accordingly. --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 17:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Jinx's blog comments doesn't mark the homepage external link no follow [[image:Winking0004.gif]]. 00:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Google search for teh assfly has us back in the running!-- [[Image:Asclepius staff.png|8px]]-PalMD -- 01:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A few Blogger posts probably give the Googlebot a kick start. 06:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

In the Garden of Eden
Going to redo the question I put up on Trent's blog. Would it have been right for Adam and Eve to destroy the tree of knowledge, as they were only told not to eat off of it? And please, use your imagination as to how to destroy it, I go with talking dinosaurs.--Tabris (talk) 03:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They were trying to destroy it! They started by eating its fruit... next would come the twigs, branches, and roots.  04:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't it obvious? The only way to destry teh evil tree o' knowledge was to throw it deep into the fires of Mount Doom, in the Heart of Mordor, where the shadows lie... 10:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, accepting the ridiculous premise of the question, there would be no right or wrong about it as they were innocent of what it was. It was just a tree to them and as they had been given dominion over the Earth destroying it would have been an acceptable option, especially during winter when burning a bit of old wood might keep the chill away from those naked bodies. 19:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

We're back just in time
Thank goodness we're back.... I almost died on Thursday and need my Rationalwiki support group. This week at the Auraria campus has been fall fest. It's a great little festival, with groups from all over campus setting up tables and trying to get members. During the course of the festival, I spoke to many different religious groups including Christians (Baptist, Methodist and Catholic (I royally pissed off the Catholic table by the way)) Jews (Reform and Orthodox) and Muslims. At the very end of the line, there was a table labeled Menorah Ministries. I had never heard about them, so I started looking at some of their literature. Turns out to be a Messianic Judaism group, which is fine. I start talking to the guy and can tell right away that he's a little.... we'll just say off. Anyway, so then I look down and see this piece of shit book on the table.] He saw the look on my face and said, I swear "This man is one of the most brilliant thinkers of our time." I almost choked to death on my own saliva. I got into a little mini argument with some of the problems is that book (I literally had him open to a random page and I just found the first fallacy and attacked it) He comes back with the whole "well, I guess you're proving him right" speech. I just responded by saying "I'm not an Atheist; I just like nonfiction books better." Then I left, still shaking. However, I do believe I got the last laugh; I wondered back over to the Orthodox Judaism table and casually mentioned what he was saying at his table. They were not happy and were talking about sending someone over to have a talk with him. If you read on the news that some Orthodox Jews beat the shit of a Menorah Ministries guy, you never saw me. 09:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't conceive of the level of delusion required to conclude that Ray Comfort is a brilliant thinker. I'm fairly sure that guy requires medication. -- 09:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The UK Amazon has the tag "arsewater" for "You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence, But You Cant Make Him Think" (along with complaints that it isn't possible to give a negative number of star reviews). The man is clearly a military-grade fuckwit Silvermute (talk) 09:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a simple matter of perspective. If you were talking to Einstein and he was struck by lightning, instantly doubling his IQ would you notice any difference? All you have to be is one percent cleverer than someone and you look brilliant to them. Ray's arguments are brilliant. Atheists are wrong, they will instantly disagree and they will say false things; so by disagreeing with him you are proving him more right. 09:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * People like VenomFang think that they can prove the existence of gOD in seven words (or something like that) and they attract a bevy of followers who shriek "Wow, he's so right!" just because it supports their own preconception/delusion/religion. These people don't even approach the act of "thinking", like PJR they just regurgitate what someone else has spouted and fail to recognise the contradictions. Thanks for reminding me, Chuck, just why I started editing at CP and why I believe in our mission here.  18:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Aw, don't use "fag" as an insult... and Pi, yeah, I agree. You can tell how "smart" people dumber than you are, but you can't tell how much "smarter" someone smarter than you is.  19:42, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry that was a typo. 06:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Eliezer Yudkowsky at lesswrong.com came up with the idea that all people over one standard deviation above your own IQ start to blur together when it comes to judging intelligence. Seems reasonable to me. (That was horrible phrasing, sorry. I can't write currently.) 01:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The Atheist's Guide To Christmas
Thought I'd give a shout out to Ariane Sherine's next project following on from where the Atheist bus campaign left off, The Atheist's Guide to Christmas. 42 writers, entertainers, comedians and scientists all contribute, and it's a pretty impressive line-up: Richard Dawkins, Charlie Brooker, Ben Goldacre, Jenny Colgan, David Baddiel, Simon Singh, AC Grayling, Brian Cox and Richard Herring. And a few more that Ariane have said are writing. Believer or not, it'll probably be far, far more entertaining that You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence... or The Dawkins Delusion. 14:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the recommend. Even if it only had half the contributors and even if the profits were not going to a good cause it would still be essential reading. As it is I'll be bulk buying for Christmas stockings. Err.. solstice stockings. Err... It's bloody cold and we need an excuse to party stockings. Bob Soles (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Mrs Khant and I try and avoid these religious celebrations. We hide away in our yurt with some figgy pudding, a Colston Bassett and a mixed case of festive beverages. BTW we had a recent get together of friends and I decided to open one of my bottles of Croft '63 which I bought back in 1978. Twas delicious. 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * British Christmas is mostly secular nowadays anyway, isn't it? All you need to change to make it fully non-Christian is to change channels during the Service from Westminster Abbey and you're done. What's Christmas Day like in the United McDocracy of Colonia? Totnesmartin (talk) 18:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A lot of casual lip service (people wishing each other a Merry one). For some time now the big stores have been open on Xmas day.  Apart from the actual War on Zmas, it's pretty secularized. And, oh yeah, traffic and shopping get really bad in December.  19:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lots of pretty lights in rich neighborhoods and awkward moments when you realize you don't have change for the Salvation Army. Malls become unbearable, rush hour doubly so. 01:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like a fun read. To buy, to buy ....--BobNot Jim 09:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

All in the Family
Given it's cultural significance, and the fact that I'm a huge fan, would it be alright if I do an article on this classic example of American television?--Tabris (talk) 02:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I really don't know what it is about, but when I hear TV show my first reaction is likely off-mission. What are you looking to say about it? 02:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * '"The program you are about to see is All in the Family. It seeks to throw a humorous spotlight on our frailties, prejudices, and concerns. By making them a source of laughter we hope to show, in a mature fashion, just how absurd they are." That sounds a little like us. Besides,haven't you ever heard of the "Archie Bunker" Vote?--Tabris (talk) 02:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but I do not live in the US and not all of their pop culture makes it our way. Have you heard of a donkey vote? 02:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The asshole vote?--Tabris (talk) 02:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, not culturally relevant, as we have a different electoral system. How about you write the article and I will learn from it? 02:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * American popular culture? Actually it was a rip-off of Till Death Us Do Part. 06:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say go ahead and write it, as it's an example of a political parody. If worst comes to worst, we can debate later if it is off mission.  But it has a significance in that it made fun of what was left over from the "Leave It To Beaver" conservative generations.Lord of the Goons (talk) 06:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * @Genghis that was what I thought when I looked it up. 10:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Intelligent Design Explained
Intelligent Design Explained; apparently it was a poker game between Satan and God with the foreskin being the stakes... 09:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I love how they have NZlander accents. Very funny, but also blasphemous - "slaughter a goat!" 12:09, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No no, it was God lighting his fart. Damnit why do they keep removing all the good clips off youtube? 14:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

How is it possible?
The section two above makes me sad. How is it possible that people would donate a third of million dollars to a convicted fraudster so that he could keep his fraudulently obtained property? I don't really keep up to date on the antics of Kent Hovind, but they're usually good for a laugh when I do hear of them. This particular thing however just depresses me. Can't people think of better things to do with their money than keep some yokel crime family in style to which they've become accustomed? -- 11:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is fucking awful. Farah can raise $125,000 to prop WorldNutDaily up to help with his billboards campaign to expose the truth about Obama. It seems that if you can get people emotionally invested enough in something they will hand over cash to them with little regards about to what happens to it. 11:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's the one flaw in the wingnut dream of "you can spend your money better than the government can!"... the one flaw being "it's bollocks". 11:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OK you guys, if you don't cough up for RW's emergency reset function then the kitten gets 10,000 volts. 12:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That could also explain it... 12:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sending video files
I'm about to send some chunks of digital video off to become part of a DVD that someone's making. what's the best way of doing this?
 * copy files to cdr
 * copy files to dvdr
 * record watchable files to dvdr

I'm not very technical about these things, I just point the camera... Totnesmartin 12:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess just save the files (MPEGs?) onto DVD-Rs and post those. If you burn as a watchable DVD then they'll probably have to convert them back to reauthor the DVD. 14:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok I'll do that then unless somebody here goes NOOOOO before I go to Moprrison's. Totnesmartin 15:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Preventing server collapse
While anything can happen, 90 percent of the time when the website goes down it is fixed by simply restarting the server. Our nearly 3 week long outage was fixed in less than 10 seconds when I got home by pushing the reset button. A large amount of our intermittent downtime could be avoided if this were to be automated. It would also greatly reduce the chances of a repeat incident during my travels.

I will be traveling a lot this coming year. In fact, I am leaving for Chicago for a week in a month. I would like to invest in some power management hardware that can auto detect when the website is off line and reset the machine/modem/network switch, etc.

I will be putting up a mini-fundraiser for people who want to pitch in and help. Based on the response I get for that I will get the best possible hardware I can for the money donated to help manage this problem in the future.

If you are able and willing to toss a few dollars my way I am sure every user of the site would appreciate it. Hey if Kent Hovind's son can raise $200,000 dollars to save Dino Adventure Land we should be able to get a few hundred dollars to keep this site alive. tmtoulouse 23:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest you buy one of these to do the job of hitting the reset button when you aren't there to do it. That should solve more or less all your problems at a stroke. -- 05:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That looks like the toy we need. Trent?  22:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And if you need any suggestions on what to do whilst in Chicago, let me know.  13:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

De-CPying the main space
Before the crash ToP and a friend decided to start a de-CPying of the mainspace. I quite like this idea, as most of the in jokes about Conservapedia are little of putting to non CP-centric readers. How does the mob feel and what do we do about it? Also sorry to AP about reverting your edits without first raising this here, I forgot that the discussion about this was only a few hours old before the crash. 00:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This was, in my eyes at least, only about getting rid of the pointless and lame connections and links. Stuff like where people have written "some people" and wiki-linked every other word to random CP sysops. Articles where CP has a famous (or infamous) article on the subject, or the right-wing/fundamentalist opinion is best described by Conservapedia, then the links and mentions should stay. The boxes like the CP template we were planning on expanding to include a more general "wikisphere" mentality. 08:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I liked the idea at the time and I still do. My tweak was that I would add more links to other wikis. Ideally, have one honkin' great template that allows CP, WP, aSK, and anything else to get a link. I don't think RW should be afraid of linking to wingbut sites and it would be helpful if it can act as a hub on topics of interest. SuspectedReplicant 08:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say that if it is necessary to link to other wonky wikis to make a point then that's fine. I'd say that CP should no longer hold pride of place in the wonky wiki world - but equally we shouldn't go out of our way to link to any of them. Furthermore, if we do link to them it should be clear to an "outsider" what they are and why the link exists.--BobNot Jim 09:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm having a look at making a "wikisphere" template. Though I have no idea exactly how best to implement it. Perhaps just stick the WP and CP templates inside a box, like the userbox boxes, and make it collapsible. 12:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * e.g., here. Though obviously, integrated better, but my wiki-fu is probably not up to scratch on that yet. 12:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the collapsible boxes in a box idea - how about the template has a series of simple parameters like WP, CP, ASK, WS, etc that activate those inner boxes, and allows a line of text with a link for wikis we haven't automated yet? 22:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Online behaviour.
So if somebody from our little community was engaging in online behaviour that might not reflect well on them, would it be in our place to call them out on it? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 04:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Depends, in my opinion. Does it reflect poorly on our community or just them?Lord of the Goons (talk) 04:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)Does it affect RationalWiki? 04:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think it effects RW as such--but we are "the vandal site"--we are ALL tarred with the same brush no matter what. Prolly not a big deal. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 04:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Short of a name change we are always going to be known as that, because, lets face it, RationalWiki 1.0 was pretty much a place to plan wandalism of CP. We have moved past it but the name has stuck. 04:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If it reflects poorly on us, then I'd say go ahead. If not, then let them misbehave in their life, since it is their own. If you are unsure, then just give us a general idea of what without giving too much information, and the mob can be the judge. If it doesn't really matter, then let it go.Lord of the Goons (talk) 04:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What we are talking about is user:Proxima Centauri? Or am I wrong? Please, people, name names if you are going to name names.  04:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What we are talking about is user:Proxima Centauri? Or am I wrong? Please, people, name names if you are going to name names.  04:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

No. You're right--we may be a mobocracy, but we're not a mob. One of us is not all of us, and if one of us is doing something that another one finds a little distasteful, so be it. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 04:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * FUCK YOU, YOU COMMUNIST FUCKTARDS end random outburst 04:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it me? Do tell ToP. Ace McWickedModel 500 04:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)Glad that is sorted, can we now move on to some of the site rebuilding problems above? 04:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's nice to be home. Oh, it's so nice to be home. (ECx4) Shut up, Pi.  04:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Exorzize Cheezbrgrz for cn etz! Tarantallegra (talk) 06:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Tarantallegra (talk) 06:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry Tara. You're not famous you've just been had by the evil Template:USERNAME trick in Javascap's sig. 12:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You could always send 'em an email if they have it enabled. SuspectedReplicant 08:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it me with all my accounts on Cp? o.O 09:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know what it was! No one around here gets my sense of humor.  Just not cut out for this site. Tarantallegra 22:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Popular British Names
I remember Andy claiming that Mohammed was the most popular name in Britain and being roundly slapped by people who prefer to check their facts. Can't remember where the "debate" was though. In any case, the BBC has a new list and Mohammed is in 16th place overall, although it gets up to #2 in the West Midlands. If anybody is interested... SuspectedReplicant 13:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Full data from here. To be fair, if you add the count for "Mohammed", "Muhammad" and "Mohammad" together, it would be in 3rd place overall. I'm disappointed to see Robert down in 89th place though. SuspectedReplicant 13:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought this thread was going to be related to this article "Britain's naughtiest names". 13:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * CP conversation here.  13:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks! I thought it was a World History lecture but I couldn't find it. SuspectedReplicant 13:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that's interesting. Though it's not exactly cause-and-effect with names (there's that theory that names do make a person but it's mostly woo-woo that I can tell). Think of the kind of parents who call their kid Chardonnay (which got popular after Footballer's Wives started IIRC) and you see that the link can be pretty valid. 13:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, around here, Sidney/Sydney is a popular name for both boys and girls, due to our popular hockey player.  13:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Chardonnay? Good grief. Some people really shouldn't be allowed to have kids at all. SuspectedReplicant 13:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) That was my snobbish take on it as well. Parents who give names that echo celebrity culture (lawks a mercy, I'm sounding like Andy) are probably not the ones who would encourage their kids to sit down and read a nice book. While those who call their kids Alice, Benjamin or Daniel are most likely to have traditional mores and encourage their kids to do well at school. 13:58, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When I am in charge after taking over the world with Trent's mind control powers, I shall ban any names which are a) already English words; b) contain the letters x or z and c) are "Tiffany". 14:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This whole "your name defines you" is a bit bollocks. I'm named after a war god and I don't go conquering empires, although I did glare rather sternly at someone on the bus the other day. Totnesmartin 14:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it strangely funny thinking of a war god called "Martin". 14:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not that it proves anything, but Jesus and Mary - or rather their Spanish equivalents - must be the most popular names in Spain. Some people have both.--BobNot Jim 14:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My name seems to be increasing in popularity and is getting towards the top 50, however, I have yet to find one of those souvenir mugs / pens / gonks with my name on it. 14:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never met or heard of anyone with my name and spelling outside of Ireland. 14:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never met anybody anywhere called Phantom Hoover. Totnesmartin 15:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never met anyone with the last name Bizarro. 15:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's because it's not my real name. Totnesmartin 18:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Duh. Yes, that's a reference to Andy's complaint. 18:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thinking about this I now understand the issue. The Catholic Church used to be very powerful in Spain, and they were hot on boys and girls being called either Jesus or Mary - so every child automatically got this name as either a first or second name.  And this no matter what the parents wishes were - when baptism came 'round the priest would add it automatically in addition to the chosen name.  Of course everybody was not actually called Mary or Joseph in real life (though some were), as that would have been too confusing.  Now I'm going to make a guess about Mohamed.  My guess is that all Muslim male children are called Mohamed in the same way that all Spanish boys were called Jesus. That's obviously going to skew the statistics somewhat - but it hardly means that the UK is suddenly a Muslim country.--BobNot Jim 14:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

(undent)Also in the Beeb British teachers can spot trouble makers by name alone. Apparently 'Callum' is a definite no-no. As that's an alternative spelling for my (real) name I have to agree. Bob Soles 14:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like an also also (see Britain's Naughtiest Names above). 14:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Callums are naughty? Callumny! I'm sorry... 15:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds about right. Considering the wide variety of "christian" names, it doesn't take much to become most common. Say, a really low 5% minority group with 50% having the same name in there somewhere (probably do to what you say regarding it being semi-compulsory) still gives a whopping 2.5% of the total population with the same name. Even with these low figures I've pulled out of my arse, this name becomes more common than the most common name among my friends (which is Sarah, best that I can tell). 15:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The full list is weirdness itself. Alfie at #6? Have you ever met anyone called Alf? If I ever met one, I'd expect him to be a jolly, rotund, mid-forties publican. Charlie at #7... apparently people aren't content with being called Charles and having a matey version for their friends. Also, Cameron is the name of a hot terminator, not a name for your baby boy. Additionally, when the hell did Ruby come back? And why aren't there any Ekaterins, dammit. (Edit: Also, Lexie? Do you want your kid to be a hooker, stripper or porn star?) -- 15:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never met a female Cameron, but at least one male one. 15:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect it may well now become popular. Plus there's David Cameron. Oh, no, wait... -- 15:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Re Spain - Maria is definitely the most common female name, although a majority are called a variation and don't actually use the Maria part (eg Maria de los Angeles would usually be known simply as Angeles). Jesus is a common name but nowhere near Jose or Antonio.-- 15:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cameron is more popular in Scotland. I knew several when I lived up there. I agree about Lexie though. SuspectedReplicant 15:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The Scottish data is here. Muhammad/Mohammed show up in 82nd/96th and would be 50th if combined - significantly lower than the England/Wales figure.  Which probably isn't that surprising.  What stands out for me is that the top boys names are fairly standard, (Jack, Lewis, Daniel) while the top girls generally seem to be middle-class oriented (Sophie, Emily, Olivia) or that simply my bias showing through?  For a real laugh, the full Scottish list is here - yes 2 people called their son A Worm  (t  15:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Two As but no Qs? If you name your baby Q, I suppose you have to worry that your kid might grow up either to be a brilliant engineer or the biggest trekkie nerd imaginable. -- 16:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's hilarious! Don't they know "A" is a girl's name??? SuspectedReplicant 16:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC2) My guess is that the name of "Mohammed" has reached that prominence in Britain because there is no single name that is nearly as popular among the British as "Mohammed" is among Muslims. 16:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Holy shit. "Precious-Alexia" and "Princess-Vanessa". These babies should be taken in to care and renamed, immediately. Also, a see some cake related bullying in the future for Sarah-Leigh. One can only hopes she doesn't ever get fat. -- 16:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 4 Cs. Computer nerd parents, evidently. 16:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hah. When they have grandkids, instead of C Jr. they can be called c-plus-plus. -- 16:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Assuming this is the population as a whole, I think I'm on it (and I'm unique!). As an unrelated aside, there are at five spellings of "Matilda" there. 16:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So not so much waltzing but enough for a good line dance? --Kels 21:55, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, no, it's only 2008 births. Awww. I'm not special any more. 17:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

20 years ago I won a muffin with the answer to the trivia question "what's the most common first name in the world?" At Bob M, that is exactly correct. Many many male Muslims have Mohammed as their first name, and of course is a middle name and last name that makes them distinguishable (Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi..), or simply fame (Mohammed Ali). 22:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)