RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive52

Independence day
It's Independence Day in Estonia. So, in order to celebrate it, I decided to introduce you Estonia ... a bit.

Estonia is a ridiculously small nation and we have all the common psychological complexes of small nations. (<- uh, a good introduction..) It means that we declare everything about Estonia and in Estonia to be the "best one". It's quite strange. We think that we have the best beer, that our girls are the most beautiful ones, that we are one of the smartest nations in the world (or at least that we have the best educational system, but it is still very strange), that everyone should be stunned by the beauty of our nature, etc. It's not just "Estonian" thing to do, but most Estonians honestly believe all that. And if foreigners aren't amazed by everything they see in Estonia, we feel that we've been insulted to the highest degree.

However, I'd like to hear what you people think about Estonian language. How does it sound? Here are four videos, four Estonian songs. Maybe you can listen to one of them and say what you think (and no, I don't think that I've been insulted to the highest degree if you say they all suck)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DntZCBKwFH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRRiXJdmXMg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeXupFvSz70

--Earthland (talk) 14:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've forgotten about the Estonian language, and will look at your videos when I get home from work. I can, however, confirm that Estonia does indeed have very nice beer and your girls are very beautiful.


 * The time that I went was in February some years ago and it was the coldest I have ever experienced. Me and my mates were trudging around the old town in Tallinn and enjoying the nice pubs and restaurants. In one pub, we got talking to some nice local girls for a while. They then joined us for a drink in another pub when we moved on. At one point, I went to the bathroom and when I returned, one of my mates leaned across the table to me and said, "I think you should know that these girls have just told us they are prostitutes." We were shocked, but I guess when it's that cold, the ladies of the night can't pick up clients on the street. Needless to say, we parted company pretty sharpish, being polite British gentlemen, not looking for that sort of entertainment.


 * That happened on our first night there and it coloured our experience somewhat. We didn't talk to many locals after that, as we thought anyone might have been dodgy. At one point, we came across a venue that claimed to be showing Miss Estonia that night, and which still had tickets. "A likely story" we thought, and gave it a miss. The next day, the local papers were carrying stories about that year's newly crowned Miss Estonia. Still gutted we missed that. Bondurant (talk) 14:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, doesn't every nation think that they have the best beer, nicest language, beautiful scenery and prettiest girls? Of course most of it is cultural relativism, in general people like best what they have grown up with. 14:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Who can forget Estonia's 2001 Eurovision win by Tanel Padar and Dave Benton with "Everybody" and their masterful hosting in 2002? Jack Hughes (talk) 15:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * @Jack: Me. 15:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alcohol. Balance restored. --Swedmann (talk) 15:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Masterful hosting? I remember only the stage that looked like the one in my school. --Earthland (talk) 15:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * True story: The goal of my last trip to Europe was to get to Estonia. Sadly, after learning that I would have to travel through Finland, my goal was relinquished. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 15:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * People with their mad upper body strength exposed, violently ejaculating in their lederhosen are unacceptable. It is so bad, you eat the soap. --Swedmann (talk) 18:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The lady in the first video has a very nice voice, but needs to improve her mike technique a bit - a few plosives and esses came out wrong. Oh, and her accent makes it impossible for me to follow the words. 00:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

New Zealanders: Shame on you!
Go and vote 08:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey, it aint the publics fault. The buses are run by a private company hence they don't have to shit if they don't want to. Acei9 21:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Boycott the buses until they show the ads. 12:06, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

This is going to sound totally insane
Ok, I really don't like lawns. They seem like alot of trouble for something that is totally unproductive, and can require potentially dangerous chemicals that you send your kids out to play on. Combine that with the consideration of how inefficient American food production is (we waste alot of gas moving food thousands of miles), and I was thinking that it would be far more efficient to use yards for food production to supplement what was needed. So, in the event that I ever owned a home (still in grad school), I was thinking that I could use my front yard as a garden in the spring/summer. However, even so, I know that'd still just be a supplement, so I was trying to think of how to make sure the food that had to be shipped to me wasn't wasted.

And the best way I could think of would be to keep a meat-producing animal in the back-yard that can eat scraps (pig, or goat, my grandmother raises chickens, and they're always getting. They'd get killed in the city). Of course, if I need to supplement its food with anything from outside the home, then that's just something else that has to be shipped around, so it would have to live on scraps and whatever's in the backyard (I'm in the Southeast, so I'm guessing I could plant some trees and kudzu to grow on them, which will grow until frost, by which time the animal probably be eatable size). My major problem, though: how do I calculate how many calories various breeds of pigs and goats need, vs how much kudzu could grow in a standard back yard, and how much organic waste my home would produce? (also, does anyone else feel like people waste their yards with lawns?)--Mustex (talk) 06:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You ever seen The Good Life? 06:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * No, just looked it up on wikipedia. But, I'm not delusional enough to think that such a thing could make me self-sufficient.--Mustex (talk) 06:25, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You might be better off with chickens for eggs than for meat. Good layers will give you 6 eggs each per week and need only layers pellets (which here cost about £5 for a sack that will last 2 chickens 3 months) and some scraps. Regardless of what you get you'd probably still have to buy food for them. I doubt you could humanely let an animal live solely off scraps and grass. 12:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Repeating what Crundy said, chickens do a very good job with producing eggs. If you want to get a large number, I would recommend that you get either White Leghorns (white eggs) or Rhode Island Reds (brown eggs). A rooster is not needed for egg production, but you will need a coop to keep them safe during the night. If you want more info, just throw a private message at me. 15:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, if you want this then it's going to have to be your first consideration when looking for a home. The number of places that will permit this is pretty small near major urban and suburban centers, because it's considered to lower property values (and it does, a lot).  Not saying it can't be done, but it's a challenge... there's a reason why more people don't do it.-- 12:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

B.E. P. "Rock That Body" vid
Is it my imagination, or is Fergie doing a (Only pic I could find)  10:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * She doesn't seem to have a largely defensive weapon of gun in her hands though in that pic... I can't stand utter shite music so I haven't seen the vid.  21:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * She carries a "Stereo gun" (WTF?) in the vid. 21:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this guy too big an asshole even for CP?
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you.... Virginia Delegate Bob Marshall.

Most recently, he's gained attention for saying this gem:

"The number of children who are born subsequent to a first abortion with handicaps has increased dramatically. Why? Because when you abort the first born of any, nature takes its vengeance on the subsequent children."

"In the Old Testament, the first born of every being, animal and man, was dedicated to the Lord. There's a special punishment Christians would suggest."

I thought I heard that Sarah Palin was none too amused by that comment, but I can't find a source.

He's also responsible for an amendment to the Virginia Constitution that is probably the most extreme anti-same-sex marriage law in the United States. I don't think this has ever been tested in court, but a strict reading of the law makes it possible that if my partner were hospitalized in VA (which is where he does live), I could not make medical decisions for him... even if he had signed a medical power of attorney giving me that authority.

He actually used to be my partner's delegate, but my partner has moved since then. MDB (talk) 12:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Dowsing eggs
A Magnetic Egg Sexer to tell you if the chicks in your hatching eggs are male or female? Wow! How does it work?

Swing one way for male and they other for female and same for hatching eggs but if nothing then not fertile.

Oh dear. Oh deary dear. 13:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * *facepalm* 15:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * sounds like the old method of predicting the sex of a baby. Suspend ring on a chain. If it swings in a line its a boy, swing in circle its a girl. No swing at all, is very bad Hamster (talk) 15:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I hate you, Crundy, for linking to ebay. Wasted me an hour of my valuable time. 18:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. "This has been 100% for me but im sure nothing can be 100% all of the time."  How does he know?  I suppose he hasn't had any roosters hatch since using it?  An old friend had a simple and satisfying method for this, she'd wait until the gender was obvious, and then mercilessly break the males' necks.  Apparently this was very therapeutic.  20:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I asked them "Is this just a dowsing rod ?", and got back "im not to sure. i just know they are great little things i wouldnt be without mine. Best thing will be to buy one and have a go, regards". So basically "I just know it works". I sent them a reply:

Trust me, they don't work. See http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Dowsing

It's called the ideomotor effect. Try this if you are confident: Next time you have a clutch of eggs, sell / destroy all the ones that come up as male, and I guarantee that the remainder will still be 50/50.


 * Pretty sure that either that's the last I'll hear, or I'll get an abusive "Well it STILL works for me" reply. 21:38, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh! Canada!
PZ highlights the fact that "The Canadian government is planning to help a fundamentalist Christian group, Youth for Christ, to proselytize". See here. (Should this be in WIGOBLOG or WIGOWORLD?) 19:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Music
So I bought some music stuff. The software is called Reason and the MIDI controller is from a company called Evolution. I've just realised the RW connection... Totnesmartin (talk) 18:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Reason rocks! I've not used it for ages mind.  Must reinstall it sometime and get going again.  It was 2.5 last time I used it, what are you on now?  Has the sequencer been improved yet?  21:51, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This is version 4, I've never had a previous version so I can't say if it's been improved. There's still no record facility though, but there are nots of shiny new gadgets, especially a huge synth called Thor. Totnesmartin (talk) 11:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure somebody evil comes up with these names. back in the day when I tried to make music, there'd be interesting conversations like "I've been using Acid, and now I'd like to try Reason..." Reason 3 (wot I haz) is very cool, however. CuBase too. Here's a cool site for Reason refills and stuff too. -- Psygremlin  22:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

MDB is a homosexual
He's not posted for at least five minutes announcing such, so I thought I'd do so for him. 22:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh thank god. Here I was about to hook him up with a girl. Thanks man. 22:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bite me. Hard. If I'm not welcome here, then fuck you. MDB (talk) 23:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You are welcome here. Don't take any notice. -- 23:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he's joking, MDB. And I like you, and your sexuality is irrelevant to my opinion of you. 00:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course you are welcome here, MDB, whatever gave you the impression that you're not? As SuperJosh has pointed out you sexuality is irrelevant.  That's also the reason I posted this: I couldn't give a flying fuck about your sexuality, so why do you feel the need to mention it as often as possible?  08:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but is he cute?
I won't ask (publicly) if he swallows. 01:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC) CЯacke ®

British Tea Partiers
Got one comment in. My reply to the reply has been (presumably) moderated out. 22:36, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's there. Took some time to get through that's all. 23:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I did like this bit from the comments, can anyone thing of a person or website it may be applicable to? "Using straw men to form your argument........as if anyone that doesn't think like you is bad.......is a sign of desperation." 08:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * On a positive note, you can probably expect a better cuppa than their US counterparts. 09:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Header unknown
Read this All of it! 22:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And? You think they're the only company with a creepy pervo bloke in it? Jesus christ, we have a guy who is a walking sexual harrasament charge waiting to happen. What can I do? All the women in the office just laugh about it, and I think if I complained about him being pervy I'd get laughed at. If you dislike the creepy sexual attention then FUCKING COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. Don't tolerate it. 22:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It was the later stuff - that's why I said ALL OF IT. She was raped for thing's sake. 22:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm glad I read this post. I don't know what to do about it except feel sad. -- 23:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The comments are also worth reading. -- 23:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The authors story is certainly quite moving. As to the letter writer, and some of the points in the comments, it reminds me of the islamic stance that all females should cover themselves with a black sack lest the poor helpless men be forced to rape them.  09:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That Boner guy
Header seems to have disappeared. Radio is saying they found a body they think might be him. 00:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Josh Andrew Koenig, son of Walter Koenig (Mr Sulu Chekov of Star Trek series) was missing in Canada from Feb 14. Police report that a body found Thursday 2/25/10 in Stanley Park, Vancouver may be that of the missing man. CBS Report Hamster (talk) 00:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)  thats a huge bummer :(
 * Especially since Walter Koenig was Chekov, not Sulu... Bummer, Boner. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 00:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * press conference at 5 pm Pasific time Hamster (talk) 01:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * HOLLYWOOD VALUES! The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 01:05, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Walter Koenig confirms son took his own life. Condolences to his family Hamster (talk) 06:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sad indeed. 08:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Miscarriage of justice...
Anybody heard about this yet? Fuckin' Mormons, man. -- Yossarian The Man from the USSR 03:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * should be a barrel of fun as prosecutors try to convict. "MY God woman, you went Jogging, didnt you know thats reckless behavior that shook the fetus loose and made it fall out, Life in prison is what yo deserve " Bwahahaahaha,

erk, they have lost their minds. It may force women who have had a miscarriage to avoid medical treatment and stop women from getting pre natal treatment in the early stages of pregnancy. Hamster (talk) 04:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, unbelievable, and while reading about this law, I came across this article, about an Iowa woman who was actually locked up for two weeks because she fell down a flight of stairs while pregnant. The police thought it was intentional, sick fucks. Junggai (talk) 08:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Motherfucker. Words fail me.  Although the internet has helped greatly, for us in the rest of the western world it is difficult to comprehend just how strong a hold religionists have on the USA.  09:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Earthland will be proud of them. At last someone is standing up for unborn babies. Jack Hughes (talk) 09:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My sister-in-law was digging her garden over when she went into labour (and produced a successful daughter who got her PhD last year). Many "third world" women are similarly engaged in hard physical labour right up to their delivery and return to work very shortly afterwards. No maternity leave for them. 10:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Jail the fucking lot of them Lils! It's what Joey Smith would've wanted!  Why do fundamentalists (of all stripes) seem to hate women? (even women fundies seem to hate women!)  10:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I used to (potentially) miscarry once a month(ish). Praise the Lord if they can stop that for half the population. 10:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well hysterectomy would accomplish that but I don't think many men would go along with that as producing a son is often seen as a proof of their "virility". It really boils down to respect for the opposite gender and most religions don't accord that right to women. Of course non-believers may not be much better in this respect owing to cultural hangovers (often from religion) and it requires legislation like we see in the Scandinavian countries to really change attitudes but it will still take a generation for the old prejudices to die out completely. There was an item on the radio this morning, ostensibly about the premature sexualisation of children but commented about how many young men seem to think that it's OK to hit their bitch girlfriend and treat them as trash. I don't know where this came from because I know that when I was growing up during the 70s my parents were very careful to ensure that my brother and I were treated equally and that we should treat each other equally and this was also the case for many of my schoolfriends. 11:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I must be the only person on earth without an opinion either way on abortion and neither side has really moved me, I tend to just take the side against any person I discuss it with. But this bill has to be the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How can they possibly establish a causal link between the woman's behavior and her miscarriage? This would pretty much mean unless she sat in a corner, eating only brown bread, vegetable and drinking only water, she can be charged for having a miscarriage. Living is reckless behavior that will one day result in your death. 12:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Miscarriage does not (morally and legally) qualify as abortion. Murder, such as abortion, can only be a volitional act. Miscarriage, although regrettable, is not volitional. In most cases it is purely natural. So, I'm not "proud" of them. --Earthland (talk) 12:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that the point is that any behaviour that could be detrimental to the survival of a foetus and which might result in a miscarriage would be considered a crime, not a natural miscarriage where a woman's body rejects it. This would include lifestyle choices like alcohol and smoking or physically risky activities which might damage the foetus of which the woman might be unaware. Even certain foods or herbal supplements increase risk of miscarriage, so ingesting them would be considered a crime. Many women have indeed traditionally used herbs, or gin and a hot bath to deliberately miscarry, and I think that Jack's dig at you is because of this. 12:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't equal self-induced abortion and a miscarriage. Intent is the crucial point. However, to write something like this into the law is ridiculous. If someone falls down from stairs it can be an accident that regrettably harmed another human being or it can be a volitional act of a woman who was in despair. A conviction would be impossible (and undesirable) in both cases. --Earthland (talk) 12:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So prosecuting a woman who throws herself downstairs so as to induce a miscarriage is "undesirable" but if she induces a miscarriage by visiting a fully trained medical practitioner who does it in a medically safe fashion she should be prosecuted for "murder". Jack Hughes (talk) 13:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Abortion is the biggest lie in today's society, and although every induced abortion is objectively "killing another human being", it's the intent that makes it a murder. And if a woman knows that by abortion she kills another human being, then yes, it is a murder, and as such it deserves punishments. But if someone "throws herself downstairs so as to induce a miscarriage", then this "someone" is obviously in despair and it is not pragmatic simply to punish this woman, but to realize that there's something fundamentally wrong with the whole society. But as we never know whether it was an accident or a volitional act, this "punish them" approach won't work out at all and it's ridiculous to even discuss it... --Earthland (talk) 14:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, how many ways do you want to have your cake and eat it too in one simple paragraph? 05:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Abortion is the biggest lie in today's society". Bollocks! 15:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Holy fuckin' asscrackers!--Thanatos (talk) 22:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Can we just agree that this piece of legislation is ridiculous, no matter what you think about abortion? Back on topic: I found this on the SA forums, and someone there brought up the point that this could easily be used as a way to selectively punish non-Mormons. Thoughts? -- Yossarian The Man from the USSR 23:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

For Pythonistas
Just found out from the Open University site that they're having a Greece v Germany Philosophers football match. 17:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

IQ & us
Abstract of abstract: "The analyses of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Study 1) and the General Social Surveys (Study 2) show that adolescent and adult intelligence significantly increases adult liberalism, atheism, and men’s (but not women’s) value on sexual exclusivity."

Also:
 * Very liberal IQ = 106
 * Very conservative IQ = 95
 * Atheist IQ = 103
 * Very religious IQ = 97
 * Atheist IQ = 103
 * Very religious IQ = 97

Also.


 * 09:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Please, socks and editors, add to Conservapedia. Editor at CPmały książe 10:30, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd be curious as to a "cause and effect" analysis. For instance, it seems that college tends to make people more socially liberal -- not because of "liberal indoctrination", but because you're exposed to a wide range of differing people, and learn that they aren't so bad. And of course, people with a higher IQ are more likely to attend college.


 * Of course, my more cynical side explains this is why the basic strategy of the GOP seems to have become "keep stupid people afraid of things they don't understand." MDB (talk) 12:06, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that even Andy has acknowledged this. If I remember rightly, in a discussion about Forrest Gump he said that people of a lower IQ were likely to be more religious. 12:45, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Here it is. 12:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha, I like this response to that statement. 13:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

PZ urges us to STOPPIT. Sorry PZ. 19:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * PZ is right, although perhaps for the wrong reasons. What is really happening is that stupid people don't question the status quo. In America it is normal to be Conservative and Christian so the less intelligent gravitate to being Christian and Conservative by default. In countries like Japan where normal is Atheist/Agnostic it is the Christians who have the higher average IQ's. It could be that intelligent people people are split equally between theism and atheism but since the less intelligent prefer the status quo of theism the average IQ for theism is significantly lower.Icewedge (talk) 01:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunate names
This seems a perennial favorite. The latest report on some ill-conceived names reminds me that I have personally met two Jo/e Kings and a colleague whose surname was West told me that his brother was going to call his son Nathan, which is invariably shortened to Nat. From the readers' comments I particularly liked the female lawyer who married a banker called Rob Mee and thus became Sue Mee. 15:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I love those stories. Perfect Friday afternoon, can't be arsed to work fodder.


 * I know someone called Bill Hill. Unfortunate that the long form of his first name sounds like a bookies, especially as he works in the risk management industry, but also because his work username is hillbil. Bondurant (talk) 15:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I always liked Sue Perkins (Superkings geddit?) 15:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Tyra Banks" means "penis" in Estonian language. I hope she won't marry to someone whose name is Witt, because it means vulva ... but only for Estonians, of course.
 * I live in the same dormitory with a girl whose name (translated to English) means "cherry blossom". But since she almost looks like a cherry blossom, nobody really cares... --Earthland (talk) 15:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally know a Justin Case (well, Casen, but the principle is the same), there was a NASCAR driver named Dick Trickle, there is a man buried near my grandmother named George W. Bush (who died some 100 years ago and has no idea what stigma the name carries now). As unfortunate initials go, my very own make it sound like my parents didn't intend on me being conceived.   16:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * While I was gestating, my parents had chosen a girl name and a boy name, as was common for the time. What they were stuck on was middle names. My aunt nearly had my mother convinced that "Casey" would be a good middle name. "Justin Casey. Just in case he's a boy." It's a good thing my dad talked some sense into the two of them. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * These days parents have to worry about what work or school emails might be as well. When I went to college there was a guy who worked there named Clay Hubbs. Good enough, but his email made him "chubbs". A Tim Thayer I worked with had his work email "tithayer". Obviously that had no say in this. DickTurpis (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a longstanding feud between my dad and his in-laws over his kids' names. I am the oldest of 5 children and when I was born, everyone on my mom's side started calling me "JT". So my dad tried to fix that by giving my brother the exact same initials when he was born. So they kept calling me JT and just called Jacob "J". Long story short, my dad would have none of it and all 5 of us have the same initials by sex (Boys = JTB, Girls = ARB). Also each name loses a letter in birth order (i.e., I have 18, the rest have 17, 16, 15, and 14, respectively). What a pointless story. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 17:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * A university chum, Sarah Ewers, always hated that her name came up as "sewers". And at a friend's ante-natal class they used to read out the names of recent births and she was appalled that someone would call their son Aaron Hiscock. 17:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention famous websites: eg. The rapist.com etc. 17:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, now this is completely genuine: I once worked at the same place as a guy called "Richard Tuer".  It was pronounced "Chewer".  And yes, he called himself "Dick".  He was the most tannoyed person in the place.  ''"Dick Chewer.  Dick Chewer, contact control.  DICK CHEWER, contact control"  17:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. Pen Island is a great website for bespoke pens...  17:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)


 * whore presents
 * expert sex change
 * power genitalia
 * molestation nursery
 * I p(ee) anywhere
 * speedo fart
 * 17:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Mole Station is kind of odd. The site is a domain placeholder, and the search results suggest an interest in dating and sleeping tablets. I almost scared to start dating again.-- 20:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be a garden plant nursery in NZ I think. 20:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Getting back on to the subject of parental cruelty, Baby's Named a Bad, Bad Thing is pretty funny. -- 23:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Worst I've come across was a girl I used to work with, called Tracy Pacey. And that was her married name!  Psygremlin  02:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No ferret handjobs? Vulpius (talk) 10:43, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh heh, classic. I used to run a site called badtoilet.org. It was a gallery of really vile toilets, but a lot of my visitors were looking for something else. I think that "bad" is Danish for "bath", so a lot of people came looking for a new bathroom, and instead what they found was photos of urinals full of vomit or shit. 13:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * New funspace article! I cribbed a few more from a couple of blogs/lists of these.   20:25, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

We have a congresscritter (ex?) in NH named Dick Swett. Really. 20:41, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Fun with build-a-solar-system
Someone linked this in WIGO:CP. Have a play around with it and post your parameters for interesting results here. I recommend: At speed 7 the system quickly enters chaos but then brilliantly stables out after 30 timeunits, only to enter chaos again sometime later ONE / TALK 16:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 200, 0, 0, 0, -1
 * 1, 116, 0, 0, 140
 * 1, 151, 0, 0, 74
 * 1, -118, 0, 0, -133
 * WE had it here (saloon bar) about a fortnight ago. & It got stuck here. 17:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's a cool and bizarre system. Some comments... I love the early "orbit swap" maneuver.  Too bad the green planet gets smooshed so early.  But... every 190 or so time units after it dies, it comes flying in from screen right straight at the sun!  Also, the later system, which seems moderately stable, goes through some weird shifts - around 400 the purple things orbital eccentricity gets shifted about 90 degrees CW.  I wish it had a zoom or recenter feature to make it easier to track the more "cometary" orbits.  21:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe, I wrote that with it paused at about 810. At 839... oopsie!  21:08, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's an interesting problem to ask whether you can tell if a system like this is stable in the very long term -- for example, can we guarantee that two billion years from now Pluto will not have been ejected from the solar system? Of course we can compute the orbits of the planets fairly precisely out to any reasonable amount of time, but these asymptotic questions are a lot harder.  Basically no relevant techniques existed until KAM theory popped up in the 60s. --MarkGall (talk) 22:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that gravitational systems couldn't be calculated precisely above three bodies. 23:27, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's true that you can't write down a formula that tells you exactly where a planet will be after some amount of time t, like you can in the two-body case (where the orbits are ellipses). But you can use a computer to calculate, say, where Jupiter will be in 100 years, to high precision -- the limit is only in your computing power.  It's not that we don't know the equations describing the motion of the planets, just that they don't admit simple closed-form solutions.  The interesting thing is that even without explicit formulae, we can still prove that some systems are stable after arbitrarily large amounts of time, e.g., prove things like that it will never happen Uranus and Neptune align in just such a way that Pluto is flung into deep space. I'm lying a bit here -- the case of the actual solar system isn't too well-understood as far as I know.  But similar results for cases of the three-body problem, etc., can actually be derived. --MarkGall (talk) 00:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I want to discuss both the above topics (whatever they are).

Regarding the website and the fun it presents, one thing that is interesting is the rate versus distance units. Let say we want to "model" the earth/sun system, with no other planets. Most of their defaults place the "star" at 200 mass and the planet at 1. Our sun is approx, 2 x 10^30, Earth is 6 x 10^24 (assuming wikipedia was not vandalized lately). At the site, they set comets at .001. If the Sun is 200 mass, Earth is, um, 3 millionths of that. Call it .0001. Also, the distance parameter is abstract. So go there and enter relative masses for the sun and earth, and find a "stable" orbit. Whatever your choice of distance and velocity is, will define the "time" the thing runs at. Let me use made-up numbers. If we make the distance 100 units, and tweak the velocity until we get an almost circular orbit, we can then look at the time units to see how long they are. If at distance = 100, the time unit for one orbit is 12, then "1" = a month here. If it equals, say, ~4,000, then the time unit is about 2 hours. The site is awesome fun, but I think it mostly models "very close to the sun" systems. I suspect the time frame that the solar system is operating on would be billions and billions of time units on that site.

Regarding our solar system, after many billions of years, it has "stabilized". The planets, as far as I understand it, are in harmonic orbits. That is, they "never" interfere with each other - whenever they have "close encounters", all it does is reinforce the existing orbits. That's why they are almost circular. Pluto may or may not be doomed. Its orbit comes inside (waiting for en.wikipedia.slow) Neptune's. OK, WP says they are also "balanced" or "tuned" in the sense that when Pluto is in dangerous territory, it is also in the part of its orbit that is far above the ecliptic, thus not actually in danger of being so close to Neptune that it would be severely disrupted.

Concluding, the model at the site really doesn't allow us to model things like our real solar system, it just lets us play with masses and relative velocities, and we can pretend they are like real solar systems. What they are more likely like are giant planets is close orbits, like the first few extrasolar planets found. Our system took a long time to clean up the junk (most of which was either expelled or crashed into other junk) and settle into harmonically related orbits so no major orbiter (planet) threatens the relative stability of of any other. So, yeah, when the sun finally cools off and expands to a big red blob, it is going to incinerate the rocks and gassy blimps we know of as mercury, venus, earth, mars, jupiter, saturn and probably your anus and that guy with a trident in turn, because they all have relatively stable orbits. Hi everyone! 02:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Odd wiki-musing
I just had an odd thought: what if I made a sub-page for a sig (such as: "User:Example/sig1") and put in the following:, and then, in the page "User:Example/sig2" I put in ? What would happen? Would the wiki explode? 18:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the very internet itself would. Kinda like googling "google." 18:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the software stops template recursion after a couple or so. (Why not try it?)(I didn't say that!) 18:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Those things just tend to go bleurgh. 19:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * (thought it was "bloop" or "whoosh" (go round & round until they disappear up their own ...)) 19:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It stops template recursion after two recursions, I think. It makes it impossible to write any complex programs with the parser. 20:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It spits out red text that says something about a transclusion loop. 01:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we've had this conversation before, although I'd have to look for it, when we were playing with the green-text template for ASK. Infinite loops piss off the software.  Šţěŗĭļė 06:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This is all it does. 06:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Gotta love nutters!
So, some friends and I went barhopping in downtown Minneapolis this evening, and we came across some nutty religious group standing across the street from a known gay bar shouting Bible verses at the bar and, now and then, taking a break to shout about why gay people should repent. Normally, I would've either ignored them or gone up and asked them if they'd heard about the Flying Spaghetti Monster or something. However, what I saw was so much funnier than anything I could've come up with. As I approached said group of nutters, a group of four gay guys walked across the street and started making out right in front of the 3 shouting Bible nonsense!!!! It lasted for about 5 minutes before the Bible-thumpers "decided to take a break" and walked away. Needless to say, it was so funny I almost pissed myself and walked up to thank/congratulate the group that did that. 06:47, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well done that fruity bunch! -- 12:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Now that's what I call free speech. 15:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Whoopee! Canada!
Good on yer, girls. Great to see someone going mad! (& stuff the IOC) 09:14, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Official IOC guidelines celebrations recommend jelly and icecream, side-hugs and a quiet night with a good book. Well done Canada! (Concernedresident) 62.40.32.24 (talk) 10:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hang on, your IP is not dissimilar to that of MC! BURN HIM! 12:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hah. You're young, you win the match and you celebrate. Then people complain because you celebrate??  Weird.--BobIt's cold! 12:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait til 2012, Olympic celebrations will be a cup of tea and a biscuit. Real first name and last initial (talk) 13:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not MC. He's just holding me prisoner in his basement. He is a decent prison guard, but I still don't understand why he dresses up as Lincoln when he administers my weekly corrective beating. -- 13:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * At least they didn't take a golf buggy for a spin. What a bunch of wet blankets the IOC are. Jack Hughes (talk) 14:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Part of the problem, I think, is one of the participants was 18 and not legal to drink in Canada.  20:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ALL gold medal Olympic athletes are legal to drink EVRYWHRE!!!! The kitty told me so.  05:00, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean, you don't read PZ?
Shepherd’s Hill Farm is a Christian, Christ-centered, biblically based, residential wilderness program, and accredited school. 15:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, PZ sounds pissed. 15:51, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

T' internet ...
...it'll never come to anything (1995) (hat tip) 16:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, Cliff Stoll. The very model of failed cyberpredictions. 20:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * He has a point about the stupidity of most things on the internet, though. 20:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Youz means vids like THIS  Hamster (talk) 20:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a little worrying
Hi. So this is a little worrying. Looks like some sort of weird meteorological event is going to bring winds of 180 kph on my head during the weekend. OK, so the link is in Spanish but the 180 KPH should be clear. For those still living with imperial measures that's 112 MPH - which isn't quite so dramatic somehow. Still, the last time one of these hit (a once-in-a-hundred-years event which hit last year) we were without electricity for five days. So, well, could be fun.--BobIt's cold! 20:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * By the power of Google, it says "between six o'clock in the afternoon of Saturday, and four or five in the morning of Sunday, the forecast is for winds of 120 miles or more in Bilbao in unexposed areas, whilst in exposed areas over 180 miles per hour is forecast. " . (additional translation by myself). Ug. CS Miller (talk) 09:46, 27 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Good luck with that. I'll sock on your behalf. I predict that Bob shall this weekend have an odd obsession with communist transgender furries. -- 20:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sheffield had a bit o' wind when I was still at school. Our chimney came through the roof & landed on my brother's bed. Luckily we'd all got downstairs in time. 20:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Was that back in 87? The house across the road from me was almost sliced in half by a falling tree. Interesting night that. -- 23:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * '62. 23:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Were there people then? ;)
 * The two things I remember from '87 were a) the BBC broadcasting Breakfast News from a broom cupboard (or something that closely resembled one), and b) Not being allowed a day off school because it weren't so bad oop North.
 * The big swirly graphics over the south of England for this Sunday don't look fun though. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 23:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was living in London for the 87 winds - the next morning I was one of the few people to get to work (I walked) - there were no trains, few buses, power cuts everywhere - it was like an episode from Dr Who. Jack Hughes (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Happened in the South: therefore worse than anything happening in the North[[image:Laughing.gif]]. Anything from Bob yet? 08:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for asking. It's a little bit windy at the moment but it's not forecast to really start up until 3.pm my time (CET) (About four hours away at the moment) and then to keep on until some time Sunday morning. Nice of them to arrange it over the weekend.  It's already hit the Canary islands and it's lining up to give Madeira yet another battering.  They had enough last weekend!--BobIt's cold! 10:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was working in Dartmoor Forest during the 25 January 1990 storm. I nearly got killed when the tree we were felling came down early. Later we had to chainsaw our way through fallen trees blocking the only road out. Not good. Totnesmartin (talk) 13:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember the 1990 storm as well. There were trees down everywhere. Now 3.00 pm here.  Rather windy, but no sign of the promised "hurricane". --BobIt's cold! 14:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's pretty windy here, but not the promised hurricane. On the other hand there are some 30,000 people without electricity in the area because of fallen trees, and my own supply is fluctuating occasionally.--BobIt's cold! 20:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

As a result of the last two days electrical shenanigans, I appear to have lost two appliances - my old but really nice Sony VCR wouldn't respond to the "on" button and I had to swap in a cheap one I used to use (I use it as my channel changer), along with some random rewiring of SVHS/video plugs and adapters to get everything to go everywhere. And, bummer, it seems my Brother laser printer is unhappy, flashing a never-before-seen pattern of lights at me instead of printing my Sunday Gaurniad crossie... Luckily I can use my inkjet in the breach. 21:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Update, followed "test page" instructions on CD and printer came back to life. Whew.  02:45, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sunday Grauniad? Observer? 10:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In the end our "hurricane" was a little over-sold - at least where I live. In other nearby areas there are tens of thousands without electricity because of fallen trees and some fires.  Maximum wind speed was 228 KPH on some mountaintop - but fortunately not on top of my house :-) --BobIt's cold! 14:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather overwarned than "There isn't a hurricane coming" like UK 87. Eh? 14:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but sort of like the reverse. An anti-fish.--BobIt's cold! 15:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Chile Earthquake
You've probably heard of the earthquake in Chile. The Internet crackpots have already started bullshitting us with conspiracy theories, alien invasions, new age, quantum waves about this earthquake and the recent one in Haiti. Mr.Orange (talk) 17:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There's Tsunami warnings all over the Pacific. 17:47, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * did MAYANS ever live in Chile ? It could be a Mayan doomsday device setting up to ... oh why bother. Srsly How much damage was done ? Hamster (talk) 18:04, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Inca, actually. 18:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thankfully, my friend in Hawaii called me and told me doesn't live in an area that would be affected by the tsunami, but that he'd keep in touch about the affects of anything the tsunami causes. Gawddamn, I can't imagine having to be told you have 2 hours (or less) to evacuate. The again, I'm sure they can't imagine what a tornado would be like.  But, I should quit rambling.  20:59, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting for the response from the religious right,--Thanatos (talk) 22:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hawaii's in the clear, as I predicted in my brain. Tsunamis need a continental shelf to pile up on in order to drastically raise the water level.  Hawaii is a bunch of volcanic islands, rising up from the depths.  A wave can pass around such an object without being seriously altered.  I hope Japan is in a similar situation, but I worry more.  02:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've seen the cool map, although I don't understand it. It would seem that the power of the wave would be inversely proportional to the distance from the epicenter (F α 1/[2πr]), just like ripples from a stone in a pond.  Hence, I don't really understand why Hawaii was in the red.  Although the mapmakers know more than I do about it, of course.  Šţěŗĭļė 06:21, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, the earthquake is not a point motion like a stone being dropped in a pond, it involves some longitudinal displacement either horizontally or vertically so the energy will not radiate uniformly but be channeled in a preferential direction. So it might be (for example) that it heads off towards Hawaii and leaves New Zealand relatively unaffected. 14:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Jenny McCarthy
Idiot. Monstrous idiot. --Yossie Spring in Fialta 06:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The headline does't seem to match the Time Magazine story they attributed it to. See The Autism Debate: Who's Afraid of Jenny McCarthy?. She doesn't appear to deny that her son had autism. Instead she seems to believe that she cured it. -- 14:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

For those of you who haven't heard this
Here. EddyP (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahh old memes. 22:21, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Gay Commies Win Again
The homosexual, communist, pro-choice forces of evil won in overtime. See evidence of the forthcoming rapture here. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 02:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

World of Warcraft
I've started playing. I immediately regret this decision. I'm going to turn into an even bigger nerd. 16:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Go away!!!! 16:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If you just started you should come over to the Shandris server and meet me by the bank in Stormwind at 5 GMT. I'll be the night elf wearing a stovepipe hat and false beard riding an elephant. 16:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You should make yourself recognisable by wearing a carnation or carrying a newspaper under one arm. 16:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, I've a nelf with speech difficulties, well-intentioned racism and a pet Turtle. I've also got a forsaken priest, although I'm a little irregular at the moment. Prod me if you fancy trying the roleplaying side of things. It's a shortcut to uber geekiness and success with women. -- 16:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I knew some of my fellow RationalWiki nerds'd be on it. I've got a Troll Hunter on the Executus server. Level 11. 16:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You'll get over it when you realise that all the gameplay consists of "go to this place and kill of X of Y" and that all your fellow players are 12 or morons, or possibly both. There's exactly one vaguely interesting quest, which involves wild Kodo herding. Once you've done that one, you've experienced the whole game. Then stop paying. -- 16:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There was an interesting article in Scientific American just before Christmas about Chinese 'gold farmers'. Apparently roomfulls of Chinese sit around the whole day playing WoW solely to collect virtual gold which they then sell to lazy rich westerners so that they can progress to higher levels. Evidently these serfs can actually earn more money doing this than working in a factory. Some of them are employed by the computer room owners and they clock in and out like a normal job. Selling this virtual gold is against the rules of the game but it is a not insignifcant means of wealth transfer between West and East.  16:45, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has an article on the practice.  17:09, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, forgot to mention the name. My main is a nelf called Malon, and she lives on the Moonglade EU server. I'll be on tonight for a rather nice RP event in Ashenvale. -- 18:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * LEEEEEROY JEEEEEEEENKIIIIIIIINS! The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 18:25, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a Warcraft account, I have a life! 18:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * C'mon, Goonie, you must've seen the brilliant South Park episode "Make Love, Not Warcraft"?? You know how awesome it is. 19:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have an account but I haven't played for over a year. What's my standing? Vulpius (talk) 20:58, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Quick! There's only one way to destroy the Warcraft menace, before it's too late!   21:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I never like mmorpgs. They keep me interested for about a week or two, then I abandon them to pursue something with an actual story.--Thanatos (talk) 01:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I was having a little clear out recently and happened across my old Baldur's Gate box. Ah happy days. I installed it on my laptop (thankyou, WINE), and even though it's a 10 year old game, and I remember the story well, it's easily weaned me off Warcraft for the last few weeks. Bondurant (talk) 10:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Moer PZ
Pz risketh a fatwah!!!! 17:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Woah there, PZ. 21:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The Family
Have we an article on them anywhere? they're the right wing mob who've been (among other things) been backing the Nigerian homosexual pogrom. I've been searching. The reason I ask is this Hat tip. 19:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Citizen Ethics in a Time of Crisis (UK)
There's an interesting publication about ethics which can be downloaded from Citizen Ethics Network. 20:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Fight Club
I just watched it again for the 10,000th time. Here's the one problem I can't resolve, though: doesn't Tyler Durden's conformist modus operandi for running Project Mayhem conflict with his individualist, anti-consumerist philosophy? I can't seem to resolve the two. On another note, if you haven't seen the film I strongly recommend it. 21:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you need to get out more. Acei9 21:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you ought to get out at least once! 22:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Tetronian! I had that exact thought yesterday! Stop stealing my thoughts, you obscene psychic. ^_____^ -- 22:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's not a contradiction, it's an extension. By rejecting the different goals society wants you to reach, you get to see the truth; that you're not special.  Especially in the movie, they say it over and over: "you are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else".  They come together because they have no cause, no war.  Look at WW2; all those soldiers did was follow orders, and they were great for it.  The same idea is at work in the second half of the movie.   22:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nitpick: all Not-Tyler does in his office is follow orders. That isn't treated as a positive thing. FTR, I don't think there are any 100% consistent ideas in Fight Club. If you try to justify the whole of Tyler's vision you just end up going in circles. -- 22:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I read the book - hated it. one of those rare instances where the film is better than the book. Chuck Phalinukisggfhhgifde's Survivor was much better. Acei9 22:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes to that. The book is like some idiot writing about the film. It does not exist in my continuity. I didn't bother with his other stuff. -- 22:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The book's good, but the movie's better. I don't know if it's that way for me cuz I saw the movie first, as with the Godfather I prefer the book though the movie's still terrific. I've been meaning to get a copy of Palahniuk's Invisible Monsters, I understand there's a good description of feltching in it. 22:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You are forgetting the 2nd rule of Fight Club. CS Miller (talk) 23:25, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh right... They're all so quick to trot out the second rule. OK, smart guy, what are the other 7 rules? Huh? The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * @Mei: I think you're right, it is probably inconsistent on purpose. Plus, Tyler's facsism/conformism lacks direction, which is consistent with his philosophy. @Ace & Susan: Come on, you sound like my mother! Next you are going to be telling me to take a shower. (Actually, though, I do have a lady friend now. She doesn't know about the Fight Club film fest, though.) 00:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that Tyler is only part of a person, he lacks the parts used by "Jack" and HBC's character. 00:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't know what to make of Marla, now that I think about it. The narrator hates her because she reminds him of himself, but they are actually very different. (Also: I remember at one point in the book he wonders if she and Tyler are the same person because he never sees them together. Clever.) 00:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I picked up on that meme via a friend of a friend, and it's a very compelling sub-plot. Try keeping that in mind while watching sometime.  The masturbation scenes are almost as strange as the fights ;)  00:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to add that I first watched the film with an old girlfriend was a recovered sufferer of MPD. 00:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

SCRABBLE!
Hey. If anyone wants to "friend" me on Facebook, I'm looking for dedicated bibliophiles to play against on the Scrabble application. You're also welcome at my house for the real deal if you're in the neighborhood. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 02:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And where can we find you on the book of faces?  03:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose I'd have thought of that sans alcohol... I'm this guy. You'll know it's me by the "During a zombie attack, please follow me" pic I have up for my profile. Just slap Ratwiki or something in the request so I know you're not a Friendfinder Bot. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 04:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. You'll know me by the stupid looking guy playing guitar.   04:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Cavelry Scout ? thats very cool. Must be hard getting your horse around Korea. Hamster (talk) 00:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * All kidding aside, I wish I had a horse when I was in Korea. Some of those training areas can be a royal bitch to get through! The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 01:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I play all the time, but I've never played online. I'm skeptical of the gameplay living up to the real deal, but I'll give it a shot. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 14:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Fucking friends list won't load... &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 14:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a list of fucking friends? --⁠ (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We call them Facebook Friends with Benefits. 21:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, guys. I got a game started. Neveruse, you're up because I started with a deck full of vowels and had to swap tiles. Aboriginal Noise, you're next in the pipe. Totnesmartin, add the app so I can pull you in on the next game or you and I can go one-on-one. LET THE GAMES BEGIN! The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * quit stalling, bitches! &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 13:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, if only I could play from work (stupid filter!). I'll take a turn once I get home, which will be some time from now.   13:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The app kind of sucks...I've been laying waste to these bitches and my record is stuck at 1-0. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 19:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

A nice, British conversation about weather
I've only just realised it's the first of March. And what a lovely day the weather is down in Southern England. Finally, a decent chance for me to premier my new sunglasses. 11:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And a lovely day it is too in the Midlands. Where are the daffodils, though? Bondurant (talk) 11:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Snowdrops is out. (sunshine here a bit north of you Bondurant) 11:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, we woke up to the perfect morning here in Lancashire. It's a bit early for daffs but the snowdrops are doing well and I've got a few early crocuses. March, in like a lion, out like a lamb. Jack Hughes (talk) 11:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Beautiful day here in northern Spain too. Daffodils and primroses all happy and blooming.--BobIt's cold! 12:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Spoke too soon dept:- It's now snowing here. Jack Hughes (talk) 12:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * @Bob - so you weren't too badly hit by the storm? The French have declared it a disaster Jack Hughes (talk) 12:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Typical of the French to make a fuss of things! It didn't affect me too much though other parts of Spain had trees down electricity cuts and so forth.  I was just watching the news showing a few houses with their roofs blown off.  But as I said it passed me by.  Bit of an anticlimax actually.--BobIt's cold! 14:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I only lost power from 11 PM Thurs to 7 PM Fri, I was lucky. My little side street would be "last on the list" to get fixed up, but luckily there were no fallen trees on our branch, so we went live as soon as the main line we connect to got fixed.  I can still hear generators off in the distance and it's now Monday night. Oh, and today was a balmy 50 dF out, but I still don't think we'll see daffodils for another months or so.  00:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I only lost power for a few days on Friday, thankfully. In NJ we got a whopping 2+ feet of snow, though, which set some records. 00:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Many crocuses (croci?) and snowdrops out down here, but only one or two daffs - and dwarf varieties at that. Camellias and even a rhododendron in bloom as well. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Totnesmartin / talk / contribs
 * Another lovely day in the Mids. That's two in a row. In the last two years, that sort of run has signified the oncoming of winter. Bondurant (talk) 10:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Two in a row indeed. It genuinely feels like summer in Birmingham. Whereabouts in the midlands are you? ONE / TALK 13:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Glorious here. It rained yesterday afternoon here (Worksop N. Notts) Bondurant's in Nottingham I believe) 13:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Still lovely down here in the South East. I'm hoping for a third in å row, but seeing as it was snowing not 2 weeks ago I'm prepared for the worst. 13:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Laying down my guns (so to speak)
After much deliberation with the household commander, we have come to a consensus that I am too far into my military career to get out altogether, but that my scouting days have left me too broken to continue any farther down this path. I love serving my country and I love the Cavalry but branch has refused my volunteer application for recruiting duty, so tomorrow I will be asking for a reclassification into 51C Acquisition, Logistics & Technology Contracting NCO. I've had quite the experience taking the fight to the enemy but now it's time for me to take my place in a support role. Let's just hope that Uncle Sam agrees with me on this one. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 03:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Best of luck, old chap. 12:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Where do I begin?
this looks article-worthy but I can't even work out what the title should be. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Either Poe or Wooo (yes really Wooo). He cannot be serious! 11:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't quite get it. Perhaps I'm just not in a focused, caffinated mood but that article is jumping all over the place between time control, whistleblowing and stuff about Web Bot so much I just can't keep track of what it's actually saying... 14:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much why I didn't know where to start... odd that it looks great, professionally laid out, but the content is total weirdness. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That article is all over the show. I do like the fact that Clinton, the Bushes and Obama have all been advised on their futures. Acei9 18:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, that almost reads like 🇰🇪 wrote it. It just lacks a few dozen "regarding"s.  19:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Admin question
New user Brianna's edit to the Wikipedia article, would this be funny or unfunny vandalism. I for one, did not find it funny, but am hesitant toward reverting it. Suggestions anyone? Tyrannis (talk) 14:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Admins? You've seen one? Where? 14:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I snipped it to talk.
 * this one? I don't think it's either. It'd be interesting to see if it's true, of course, but it's not wandalism by any stretch of the definition. 14:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant janitorial question. Tyrannis (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Ethics
There's "flog it" on 't'telly right now & there's a woman who bought a bit of china for 40p. She's been given a £40 estimate on it. Should she give any of the proceeds of sale to the charity shop she bought it from? I know I'd feel guilty if I didn't. 15:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, a charity shop is a shop like any other, they snooze, they lose. However, there is a little bit of a difference in that the charity shop is just trying to sell anything that they can at any price - so even if it was worth £40 and they knew it, the shop probably wouldn't have sold it for so much. So yes, someone should at least make a smallish donation back (giving them a fiver back isn't going to kill you when you've had a £39 mark up, and of course, it's a good cause). The complication, however, is that the charity shop probably never paid for any of it in the first place, so really, they've already got something practically for free anyway, there's no need to give them more. 16:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, if the shop didn't price it properly that's their loss. I work in a charity shop and we look up every item before pricing it, apart from the hit novels (Bridget Jones etc). They probably have a moral duty to get a good price, but the customer doesn't - did she buy the china to support the charity, or to get a bargain? Totnesmartin (talk) 18:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, that it's the shop that has the duty to get the good price. But still, it's not a hard and fast rule. No one would have the moral obligation to give extra cash to the charity - even if the thing was worth a lot more - but since it is a charity shop it'd just be a nice thing to do. 18:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really the same situation, but recently I bought a nice jacket from a charity shop. The price tag was missing so I asked how much they wanted for it & the manager said call it £6.  When I got it home, I found the detached price tag in a pocket & it was for £8.  I felt like it would be dishonest, or at least stingy, not to donate the extra £2 when I next went to the shop.  But I'm not sure whether this was exactly a moral obligation on my part, or just the feeling that it wasn't fair for the charity to get £2 less than they should have for that sale.   21:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * She didn't make a profit anyway, just some wanker on the telly told her that her tchotchke was maybe perhaps worth 40 quid. Right?  01:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's a prog where they go to auction & actually sell 'em. She made about £ 150 for that & 3 others - slightly above estimate. 01:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Swap your bible for Playboy
Hee! Hat tip 17:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I lol'd at that one. While I think that sort of campaign is a little excessive, some of the comments from Christian students show how seriously they take it, and it's just that sort of reaction alone that almost justifies it. 18:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * KENS-TV? --⁠ (talk) 22:22, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's easy, it's called CBP wandalism. Pick a verse and say it's reverse thou shall commit adultry, thou shall lie, thou shall murder. :P Brianna (talk) 00:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol!!! Cheers to that one Brianna! So funny I spit out my beer! 01:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Where does Glenn Beck think up this crap?
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/glenn-beck-claims-progressivism-lead

I particularly love this comment: "David, I'm not sure who's more insane. Glen Beck, who obviously works without a script but simply quotes the voices in his head as they speak to him, or you, who is trying to talk logic to a man who simply quotes the voices in his head as they speak to him." Ryantherebel (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Beck hints at that idea in one of his recent books ("Arguing with Idiots," which I just read) but he never says it that blatantly. 22:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * All political people think in their pants. Beck is no exception. Brianna (talk) 23:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Seuss
My little sister has just informed me that today is Dr. Seuss's birthday. I got around to looking up some of his children's stories when I came across "The Zax" (link). It is probably the best metaphor for RW's mission statement that I have ever seen. Enjoy. 00:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Happy b-day Ed Pedo Poor Dr. Seuss! Brianna (talk) 00:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Serendipity strikes! So no shit, I was just coming to the Bar to write about my daughter's newfound love for "Oh, The Places You'll Go!". This is absolutely my favorite Dr. Seuss story and I'm glad it's her's, too. IMHO, in the world of literature, this is the most comprehensive, concise, and accurate guidebook to life. It's way better than the bible. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 01:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Phyllis Schlafly says Sarah Palin not ready for White House
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/02/18/phyllis-schlafly-no-women-sarah-palin-included-ready-for-whit/ &mdash; Unsigned, by: 71.227.237.132 / talk / contribs

Phyllis! You got some splaning to do!! --Skeptical Moonbat is Skeptical 00:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

RW vs other Wiki Sites
This Wiki Site is awesome!!! sucks balls! is like other Wiki Sites in many ways but unlike in many others. For instance why are practically everyone sysops? When can me and my friends be sysops? Just wondered because it's been so long since I've been able to PWN the wandals and I want to do it again. Brianna (talk) 00:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Because sysop=fun time on teh wiki 02:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sysop just means that your risk-level is mid to low.--Thanatos (talk) 02:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * it means theres always a janitor around if a cleanup is required. Hamster (talk) 03:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And you can block war! Totnesmartin (talk) 12:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

NDE
We don't have any articles on NDE's (Near Death Experience). I don't know much about the subject but it is one of the things many religious defenders hang on to. Most of the arguments are that there is no scientific explanation for these. As I understand, critics of NDE suggest that this is due to chemical processes in the brain. The nature of the subject makes it hard to research. I'd like to hear opinions about this from someone who has more info on the subject. Mr.Orange (talk) 14:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This might be relevant to your quest. (haven't viewed it, bandwidth) 14:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Bradley thinks In fact NDE encounters and “alien” encounters share several elements. I have become convinced that both are demonic visitations. Hah! I said Bradley "thinks"!!!! 14:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We have an Out-of-body experience article, which touches on near-death as well as other examples. I'm sure there's scope for a separate article.   23:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Scams
Checking through my junk mail folder I found this:


 * From: Thomas Smith [thomas@ukcustoms.co.uk]
 * Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 1:08 AM
 * To: undisclosed-recipients:
 * Subject: UK Customs / Heathrow Airport


 * Hello
 * The route taken through Customs is mainly determined by your point of departure and whether you are bringing into the country more duty payable goods than your free allowance. For those passengers who have flown in from outside the European Community (EC), their baggage will have a white tag and they must pass through either the Red or Green channel according to the amount of duty free goods they have. Those passengers arriving from countries within the EC should use the Blue channel, and their baggage will have green-edged tag.
 * The route taken through Customs is mainly determined by your point of departure and whether you are bringing into the country more duty payable goods than your free allowance. For those passengers who have flown in from outside the European Community (EC), their baggage will have a white tag and they must pass through either the Red or Green channel according to the amount of duty free goods they have. Those passengers arriving from countries within the EC should use the Blue channel, and their baggage will have green-edged tag.


 * As part of our routine check and based on the above, we have a consignment in your name; you are advised to come to the office address below


 * Customs office
 * Terminal 3
 * Heathrow Airport


 * You are required to come with the following:
 * 1. Your ID
 * 2. Diplomatic Tag either white or green-edge tag.
 * 3. Non Inspection document


 * Your appointment time is 10am GMT, failure to comply; we will have over the matter to Metropolitan and the FBI. I am the officer in charge of your matter.


 * Thomas Smith
 * UK Customs
 * Heathrow Airport

OK, I know it's some type of con but what are they trying to get? 16:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * See here and the comments here. Bondurant (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I imagine the "testing" explanation is the most plausible. Trying to scam the filtering systems themselves is a big job and I don't think this would do it. But what if the address wasn't Heathrow but some office, randomly just somewhere, and people started turning up? All you'd need to do is crack them on the head, steal the ID (or if you're really clever you don't even need to harm them to grab the ID details) and then you've got a ton of documents to sell on. 17:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just some rather shoddy advance fee fraud. It makes a bit more sense when you look at an example of the same email sent from a fake DHL address (i.e. you have a valuable shipment to collect from customs).  The hook of the email is just the "you need to contact us urgently" message.  The red-channel blue-channel stuff is just some randomly chosen customs spiel copy-pasted in to try to look official, even though it makes no sense in the context of attending an office appointment.  No doubt if you reply to this, you'll be told that there's some kind of release fee or customs charge to pay for some hypothetical stash of cash from a mysterious benefactor far across the seas or some such.   23:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Hospitals
this sucks I'm in the hospital after getting hurt at cheer practice. i just got admitted. hospitals these days are a mess.
 * expression of sympathy :( . Now for details - break, strain , or concussion. Plummet from the top of a pyramid , or missed catch, pulled muscle doing splits , or cartwheel gone wrong ? curious on details, assume it wasnt a pom-pom injury ? Hamster (talk) 17:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Cheerleading? What? Is this some odd thing you have invented in the States? Why would one be in a position to plummet from atop a pyramid, and what links could this have with pom-poms? 22:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no idea who invented it, but it does enhance our otherwise relatively boring American football games. 23:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll wager Ed's a fan. 23:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Bear
I'm a web bear apparently:

Slow-moving - Web Bears like you browse the internet at a leisurely pace - just like real world bears who like to take their time over things.

Solitary - Like real bears, Web Bears tend to be solitary animals. Your results show that when you are looking for information, you are less likely to use social networks or other sites whose content is created by its users, preferring instead to go it alone.

Adaptable - Web Bears are highly adaptable multitaskers, able to do several things at the same time. Real-bears are also very flexible, particularly in their diet, and will eat fish, insects, salmon and even scavenge in human refuse for new sources of food.

00:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Cosmos
Received the boxed set for my early birthday. I have made the decision to drop my entire life and watch it from front to back, and damn is it good. I'm amazed that they managed to produce it so many decades ago and still have it be relevant in so many ways even today. -- 01:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You're so fortunate. I have to settle for the season I DVR'ed when The Science Channel ran it in its entirety a few months back. I could so do without the commercials. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 01:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Special remastered millennium edition.  Oh yes.  (rubs box)  -- 01:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I could use a new copy of it myself. I wore out the VHS tapes when I bought it some 15 years ago.  I blame Cosmos for my interest in science.  Even though I was 4 or 5 when it originally ran on PBS, I still watched it then.   03:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * @Foxhole - doesn't your DVR allow you to edit your recordings? 07:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No ma'am. Believe me. I've tried. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 12:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or at least wiz thought them at x64 speed? 13:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what I do, Armondikov, but the DVR is sensitive and if you overshoot the end of a commercial block and try to immediately rewind to the resumption of the program it'll sometimes launch you back to the beginning of the recording and at other times send you all the way to the end where it hangs for up to a full minute on the "Delete/Don't Delete Recording" menu before you can do anything at all, even turn off the power. It's just a pain in the ass. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 14:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I used to have VCRs with a simple feature that would FF through 30 second increments, you could press it up to four times. Funny that a DVR wouldn't have such an automated process.  21:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, my Motorola HD DVR box does. And my regular MythTV system did. TIVO's do depending on the model. It's just software. 17:25, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that they don't, just mine doesn't, apparently. Then again, it is the stock crap box that's part of the digital cable package, so probably not. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

New section for SusanG's linky
Theocracy as it might be. Hat tip 11:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Forgotted to put header. Sorry & thanx Bondurant. 12:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. Scary website. 13:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 'sokay, Susan. You can rename the section to something more meaningful if you like. Herr Schlafly would like that they mention the abortion-breast cancer link: . Bondurant (talk) 13:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * At first I thought it was "Repent Armadillo", and thought that had to be one of the craziest names I have bumped into. 14:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well "The word armadillo is Spanish for "little armored one" (WP) so it's not a million miles away. 14:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Be sure to check out the Warfare Map. Every entry I looked at is by some user going by the rightly good christian handle of "Raven". I was also amused to see the concentration of sex shops and gentlemen's clubs right next to the airport. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 15:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Compromised Church's" [sic] 15:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That intro music is crying out for a Peter Kay replacement. --Seantalk 15:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Wonder why they've got dandruff falling on every page. 15:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not dandruff. That's nuhk-you-ler fallout from god's divine wrath. You know, once the rapture comes and all his soldiers get called home before the tribulation. (Or is it the ones who survive the tribulation and remain faithful? Or is after the war with the forces of evil? Or is it...? If only there were a website that could tell us the definitive answer.) The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Those blue links make my eyes scream. 17:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I also noticed the "Compromised Church's" Susan Not-Toast. I had a good, soft chuckle at the fact that both locations are in very close proximity to these locations. Coincidence? I think that fast-food chicken is an integral part of god's plan for the war on whatever. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 18:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That website's mission of witnessing to non-believers at inappropriate places and times reminds me of an incident from a few summers ago. I was still drunk from the night before when my apartment buzzer was rudely mashed by some religionists early one Sunday morning. Bleary eyed, I stumbled over to the intercom box and said hello. They asked me if I had a moment to discuss a personal relationship with JC. I said no thanks and went back to sleep. 10 minutes later someone knocks on my door. It's that same group I already politely declined entry to my building. Someone else buzzed them in and they took it as an opportunity to go door to door at a time when most atheists of drinking age are either still intoxicated or are sleeping off their good cheer. I answered the door with the stink of bourbon emitting from my pores. They didn't skip a beat ignoring the fact that I was standing there in my underwear and asking me the same question they did before. I asked the leader, whose voice I recognized, if he was able to recognize my voice from the intercom conversation we had not 10 minutes earlier. And I told him I'd call the police if he didn't immediately stop trespassing and soliciting in my fucking hallway. I now have a sign on the door of my building that says "No religious soliciting". Nobody in the building seems to mind not getting bothered on Sunday mornings anymore. I'm an asshole, I know, but I would appreciate a little fucking respect from people who want to preach at me. 17:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Ring of fire
Seems to be acting up: more quakes in Chile & now in Taiwan too. 01:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I am currently sitting above the Australian Tectonic Plate which is riding over the top of the Pacific Plate. Smack bang on the ring of fire. I am looking forward to looting. Acei9 01:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yo'll no doubt be familiar with the ring of fire, Ace, on those mornings after a really hot curry/chilli. when you've got the bathroom booked. 01:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't eat curry. Acei9 01:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably wise in view of your legendary alcohol consumption. Over here though they do tend to go together: booze & curry, that is. 01:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I tend to have an enormous breakfast of eggs, bacon, toast, musrooms, sausage, omelette, ham, several coffees and a beer or two at about 11am before I start my drinking day. Then I don't eat at all until the next day when I start it all over again. Probably not healthy but fuck it. If I was worried about health I'd quit smoking first off. Acei9 01:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmmmm, breakfast. Perhaps you need to go to this scummy place.  07:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There's only one true breakfast, and this fella has spent a great deal of time finding this island's finest purveyors thereof. Conversely to Ace's tactics, I prefer to kick-off my drinking day without breakfast, then stuff my face in the evening, thus ensuring I'm not hungry the next morning, so I can go out drinking straight away without brekky.  20:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Michael Foot
Has died. Probably one of the last of the true socialists (pace Tony Benn) 01:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Weird to see the old bat (spit) and smarmybollocks joining the effusive praise... come on David Owen, play nice... Totnesmartin (talk) 13:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure when Thatcher croaks it, all her opponents will speak of her in glowing terms. Maybe even Scargill... Still, I think Michael Foot deserves the praise. Even if you disagreed with his policies, nobody could say he wasn't true to his principles - something that is all but extinct in the House these days. Bondurant (talk) 14:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if you disagreed with his policies, nobody could say he wasn't true to his principles - never a truer word as been spoken. 20:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Child's play
Kid directs traffic @ JFK (And yes, I am liveblogging the news). 01:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And on ABC news 01:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * kids father and supervisor suspended for FAA investigation. Pilots union apparently talking to pilots who took kids radio calls. Hamster (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My talk radio was mostly treating it as a joke - "take your kid to work day" gone really wrong. 07:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * IMHO, that's "take your kid to work day" gone really right! 16:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe, yeah, that too. The kids must have loved it, and it sounded like the pilots got a kick out of it, too.  19:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Atlantis
AIG's version Hat tip 12:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

If you're a criminal in the UK, the game's up.
Just turn yourself in, because the police have got a great new way of stopping crime - Prayer! Yes, really. And the christian police association have been given 10grand to put their plans in to action. (I know this is an old story, but I have only just discovered it). This really really annoys and worries me; that we have serving police officers who actually think that speaking magically to an invisible pixie in the sky can reduce crime! I'm pissed off enough that there are so many divisive 'associations' within the police, (christian police association, muslim police association, jewish polish association, gay police association, and even the pagan police association.  Although sadly there is no Jedi police association, despite there being a few Jedi officers.) when non of them are needed. Arrrggghhhh! I'm off to the pub.......... 12:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * WIGO'd last week... Totnesmartin (talk) 13:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's me telt, then! I felt better for writing it though.  17:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * what would be interesting is an article in say a year, about the results achieved . Hamster (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The Christian Policing Association, an evangelical group (suprise surprise), are a bunch of bigoted bastards with a thing for biblical inerrancy. The latter is explained the "beliefs" section of their website. They made the following wonderful statement of inclusiveness when challenged on their homophobic behaviour: "We believe consistent homoerotic sexual activity without repentance to be inconsistent with membership of the Association. Charming. Perhaps the KKK can pick-up some funding if they offer to help discourage littering. Utter, utter, reprehensible shower of bastards who are perfectly entitled to their fruity little club, but it sure as hell should not be receiving grants paid for by people who they discriminate against for no good reason other than personal bigotry justified by an old book of incomprehensible meaning. 19:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Infiltration
I have the feeling that we are being infiltrated by teenagers, possibly from the UK(though they are likely using proxies. What should I do? Should I care? Tyrannis (talk) 17:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Do something fun. --Swedmann (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or just wait and see what actually happens. That bracket brain thing was not vandalism. It was just odd and unintelligible. 18:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll wait and see. Mei seems to greet them by name, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, for now. Tyrannis (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Leave 'em alone. They're only doing what kids do i.e. getting under the adults' feet. Toleration is all. 18:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. I'll get back to janitorial stuff and stop being paranoid, they're probably not much younger than me. Tyrannis (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hang on, what UK teenagers do we have here, other than me and Josh? Mei? Brianna? SRQ girl? 18:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm in my second (or possibly third) childhood. 18:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This morning I got bored and ran whois on all the ip editors. 1 was from Germany, 1 from Australia, and 1 from the UK. The UK one (brain article)was greeted by Mei, who greeted her as "Jackie" I have far far too much time on my hands and googled the ip adress. It has a history on several wikis including a "non productive" on wikibooks, as well as one on wikiquote. However, I know we have different standards here are simply ignored them until I remembered Brianna, who reported a history of disagreements with wikis, and who I asked a wandalism question earlier. I have no problem with anything they are doing(I am not TK), I just thought I should let you guys know. Tyrannis (talk) 19:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I greeted Jackie as Jackie because she made such a big deal about Leaving And Really Never Coming Back. Jackie is pretty much harmless, and I doubt she's a teenager. I also thought our newest arrivals were probably American. This 'Mei' person is totally infiltrating RW, though. Watch your backs. -- 19:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I like to take out our community standards and dust them down from time to time. I'd just like to remind people of  this one on privacy.  On an associated point I rather feel that we should treat all people the same whether they claim to be 14 of 70. We have standards which everybody should follow whatever age they claim to be.--BobIt's windy! 19:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll get back to my aimless linking. Apologies to everyone involved. Tyrannis (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Funny
See here. 19:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe he will have a highly successful career in alternative medicine. 20:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe, I'd forgotten all about CAM4wiki. So, er, who is this "Janitor" person who is on a blanking binge there this afternoon, hmmm?  21:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

A question demanding the answer "no"
Tomorrow at lunchtime in the UK, the RSA have an interesting lecture on the topic of are there any good arguments for the existence of god? You can watch the thing live on the interwebs if you so desire. Considering who the speakers are, it should be quite entertaining. -- 22:27, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, really am
Again, rehashing what I already put up awhile ago, but a copy of one of Hannah Giles "help me, ACORN is trying to destroy me" letters is up here. Oh yeah, in case you didn't know, Giles said that O'Keefe did not wear the pimp costume inside ACORN and Breitbart said he did not know what was on the tapes. The NYT will not change their belief that O'Keefe wore the outfit because he said he did it. O'Keefe also says his next video is ready to go...--Thanatos (talk) 23:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Who is a socialist?
I've been stuggling with this question since the first time this accusation came up in 2008. The right claims Obama is a socialist, the left is dismissive of this claim ... But who exactly is a socialist? A socialist is one who is a "political advocate of socialism". Socialism is "a political theory advocating state ownership of industry".

Here's where I think almost everyone left of Ron Paul can be called a socialist, at least partially, and everyone to the right of Bernie Sanders can say they're not a socialist.

Do you support the US Postal Service?

Do you support free public libraries?

Do you support your public schools?

Do you support attending state universities?

Do you support a standing military?

The list goes on ...

Does this make you a socialist? Or is this just a logical fallacy to get people in the center and right of center to support even more government control of capital and industry in the name of consistency?

I guess I find that calling someone "a socialist" is an extremely imprecise way of characterizing someone's economic ideology. I don't find the word malicious or naughty, just imprecise. ConservapediaEditor (talk) 10:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. I don't think "socialist" is a binary adjective (so to speak). Socialism, as I see it, is a very wide spectrum. I think the same of "capitalist". And I think it's possible to have political views that accommodate both socialism and capitalism (all be it in varying proportions). Here's how I picture it:

<-- more socialist          more capitalist --> Communism <> Libertarianism


 * ONE / TALK 10:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me fix that for you before ListenerX comes along:

<-- more Red               Less Red --> Red <> OK, you're good


 * Bondurant (talk) 10:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a problem with sticking to the bounds of 'left right' politics. Economic stances are not the same as civil/moral/political stances.  That's why the idea of the political compass is much more accurate.  For example, I am on 'the left' when it comes to (some) aspects of economics (a fairer distribution of wealth, profits shouldn't be made from providing essential services) but I'm very much on 'the right' in that I am a Libertarian when it comes to other things.  12:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I should have said "economic views", not "political views". I certainly don't pretend that the above spectrum can be applicable to social or foreign policies, or the amount of centralisation in government. The spectrum is only a small piece of one's whole outlook. ONE / TALK 16:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I wouldn't call any of the items on the above list "industry". 19:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * But, PS, General Motors is. 19:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This is why most of the world thinks America is nuts, how can anyone be pro/anti-the fucking postal service? It delivers letters to your god-damn letter box. You write an address on an envelope, you put a stamp on it, you stick it in a letterbox and in a few days someone takes it to the place you wrote down. How can you possibly have a view on that either way? 23:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * @Pi: It's funny, I've never looked at it that way. In the US, everything is looked at in terms of two things: 1) does it mean more government control over people's lives, and 2) how much am I going to have to pay for it? This is true even for trivial things like the Postal Service. 02:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * These days you can't even take the postal service for granted. In the UK, Royal Mail is well on its way towards privatisation, which would be an absolute calamaty. It has already been opened to competition in some aspects (business postal services, mainly), which RM is still obligated to deliver, and is being run as a limited company, meaning that the focus is already shifting from the quality of its service to pure profitability. In practise, this all adds up to greater amounts of junk mail, carried by fewer posties, doing longer routes; and to a demoralised workforce that is going on strike from time to time. All this has happened under a supposed left wing government! Bondurant (talk) 09:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, many people appear to equate socialism with the State owning anything at all, rather than using the proper definition: advocacy of nationalizing or collectivizing the Means of Production.
 * The U.K. Labour Party finally saw reality on the economic front, but now they appear to be getting very heavy-handed with this jobs blacklist, etc. 05:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Manual of style
A certain Concerned Resident has suggested we move User:Human/Manual_of_style to Help:Manual of style, perhaps improve it a bit, and use it as "soft" policy. What thinketh the gathered mob and their pitchforks? 00:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Do it.  00:20, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I hath read and have deemed it very good. Acei9 00:26, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As you can see by the blue link above, I have released it into the wild.  I asked Susan to add her dpl thingie that integrates it with the other help pages.  Could probably use a few judicious "see alsos" too.  00:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Woot, cheers. Human helps us write gud. -- 07:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks CR! I'm glad yu speld yr comment rite!  08:57, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Help me, is there a name for this logical fallacy?
Has anyone heard a name for the fallacy when someone invokes "everyone I talk to thinks so" or worse "everyone I know believes the same way" as support for their argument? Is it simply anecdotal evidence? I don't think so, because anecdotal evidence actually tells a specific story which may or may not be true, whereas this is likely someone pulling generalities out of their ass. Junggai (talk) 12:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's argumentum ad populum. 12:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * See also Three men make a tiger "Three men make a tiger is a Chinese proverb.  It refers to the idea that if an unfounded premise or urban legend is mentioned and repeated by many individuals, the premise will be erroneously accepted as the truth.  This concept is analogous to communal reinforcement or the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum or appeal to the people.  13:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I get the impression that it's drifting towards Common sense or "common knowledge". Those things wouldn't be names for a specific fallacy, but it sounds to me like the canards that begin with the phrase: "Everyone knows that ". This is one of the key pillars of Schlafly statistics. Susan, thanks for mentioning the Chinese proverb. I was totally unaware of that. -- 14:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Little bit of meandering round wp, is all. I'd never heard it before either. 14:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I think that the proper response should be: "You ought to get out more" or "You know some strange people" or, of course, "this is likely someone pulling generalities out of their ass" 15:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The First Atheist Blogger?
15:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Advice on CP memes
I'm working on an essay right now, and the basic idea is to create fictional characters that provide evidence of the stranger claims made at Conservapedia. For example, in the first story I explain how my mother wearing pants ultimately led to my being shot by a pregnant STD infected classmate. Here's the work in progress: User:Concernedresident/mystories. Any suggestions on memes I could use? I'm about to explain how Schlafly statistic saved my career as a statistician. -- 17:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you ask at talk wigo CP as well? 20:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Handwriting recognition
I've got handwriting recognition to work now that live installed Windows7 and installed the tablet dives. I'll give it another hour before the novelty was off or my hand cramps up... 19:11, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

SF writer
What kind of SF writer are you? Not telling mine! 18:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Arthur C Clarke, which makes me happy. --Seantalk 19:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm jealous!
 * I am Olaf Stapledon somehow. -- 19:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * A bad one. 19:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * L Ron Hubbard? --Seantalk 19:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I was Asimov, to my great surprise. 22:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Who the fuck is William Gibson?--Thanatos (talk) 23:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * He coined the term "cyberspace." 00:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanatos, I'm shocked!
 * Just call me Ayn "Emperor" Rand. -- 02:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Me too! I'm mortified.
 * I wouldn't call her work science fiction, it was more political fiction than anything else. Still, it's ironic that The dictator autocrat emperor ended up with the queen bee of anarchy.  03:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Frank Herbert. YES!!!! My favourite!!!! TheoryOfPractice (talk) 03:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * He's great but his legacy has been trashed.
 * You mean 'cause of that tripe his leech of a son has been putting out? I know, it's horrible. I read the first two books the kid "wrote" and promised myself no more. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 23:21, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 'zactly! 23:32, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I had to look up Hal Clement. Nice to see my school-years penchant for sci-fi cartoons with weird planets has left some traces... Totnesmartin (talk) 08:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Some great stuff. "Gravity" was one? 11:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * HG Wells. 13:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Also HG Wells Bondurant (talk) 13:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

complaint of Mei
Had anyone heard of Olaf Stapledon before I mentioned him? Have any of you read anything from him? I think I've missed the point of the test by not really knowing what the result means. -- 21:48, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ! Kids today. Fancy not having heard of the universe spanning Olaf. Look up "Last and First Men". A bit wordy but ahead of his time. 22:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Interestingly: "Star Maker contains the first known description of what are now called Dyson spheres. Freeman Dyson credits the novel with giving him the idea. " (Wp). 22:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 'Last and First Men' has a scary depiction of something very like a nuclear war, fought entirely with chemical weapons and aircraft. And comically insane Martians! Broccoli (talk) 00:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't Tell Andy
That Canadian conservatives (if there is such a thing) are planning to do a review of the national anthem to make it more gender-neutral.Surely this proves that there are no real conservatives in Canada! Haven't they read the conservative Bible!?--Thanatos (talk) 03:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've always found it funny how conservatives in the US think that conservatives elsewhere in the world are their political equals, especially when the US conservatives want their movement to get credit for something that conservatives located elsewhere did. 03:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * They ought not to be messing with the national anthem; no one who cares about politically-correct bunk like that is probably inclined to sing it, in any case. 04:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, wanting to do something about leaving out half the people (the ones with vaginas) and invoking a God that lots of people don't believe in is "PC bunk." Everything should stay the same and not be messed with--we got everything right on the first try. Anyways, it's a non-issue now, TheoryOfPractice (talk) 04:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There is also the issue of the break with tradition, which is part of what a national anthem is all about. In Canada's case, however, they could just revert to the anthem's original lyrics. 05:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * When an anthem is new, is it still "traditional"? Keep in mind what Winnie said about tradition...  05:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Churchill's statement referred to change that you had to allow to happen (Burke style), rather than change you rammed through the legislature like a musket ball. 06:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You ignored the first half of my comment, which was the serious part. And why is inclusiveness not change we have to allow to happen?  06:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The song dates back to 1908. And insofar as "inclusiveness" is not a code word, there is no "have to" about it; if everyone turned their minds away from the matter, inclusiveness would not be brought in, but if everyone turned their minds away from the passage of time or the rotation of the earth, well... 07:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, maybe I wasn't clear. So let me ask, in 1908, was the song "traditional"?  Where do traditions come from, especially original ones?  As far as the rest of your reply, you aren't really making sense.  08:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Traditions are made through age and long use. As to the rest of my reply, to rephrase, I was making a distinction between change initiated by people (e.g., changing the national anthem) and other sorts of change (e.g., the passage of time, to which Churchill was referring). 23:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

"Traditions are made through age and long use..." No they're not--read Hobsbawm and Ranger's Yhe invention of Tradition. On the other hand, don't, 'cause you, in your inimitable style, will just wave your hands and mutter something about Reds without ever engaging with what the authors actually argued. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 23:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This deserves a longer treatment. Short version: What happened in Scotland in 1822 is how national traditions get started; that particular case was just documented more than others, is all. That most of the pageantry, etc., was a fabrication is unfortunate, but it is a tradition of its own now. 04:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

"they could just revert to the anthem's original lyrics"...the original English lyrics, which have the same PC problems as the modern version ("sons," allusions to God) or the original French lyrics (written before the English version), which were written for the St. Jean Baptiste Society, a leading Quebec nationalist/separatist group? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 06:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I was talking about this version. Is that not the original? 06:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, I've never seen that one before. Way before my time. "Dost" kinda dates it though. And there are still problems with the French version--mentions the Cross, for example. Ultimately, the only place I ever here it is at hockey games, and I try to be drunk by then...TheoryOfPractice (talk) 06:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The reference to the cross is a metaphor rather than a call to God, and the archaic language adds a nice mystical shine to it. But it is not my country's anthem, so my word probably should not be taken for very much. 07:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think "No Quarter" would make a great national anthem. For what country, I don't know.  Also, your last, humble sentence is duly heard and appreciated. It's not my country either.  No nation is my country, I think I am a citizen of Earth, and brother to all other life we may not know about.  I am made of star stuff!  HEHE  08:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Free vs free
I am having a problem doing templates on everything I have uploaded. Whilst smilies and clip art are free in the sense that they don't cost anything, they do not appear to be free in the sense that they are released under a free license. How do I describe them then? 01:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC) "Animated smiley face. Claims to the contrary, this passed into the public domain decades ago. The original smiley passed into public domain long ago, due at least to failure to defend. It may simply be too trivial to copyright; perhaps cavemen drew such things in the dirt and thought them too trivial to paint on the walls." 01:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Conservapirated -- Nx  / talk 01:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting concept, but legally a little shaky. By offering it for free download they seem to imply, at least, that you can use it for whatever you want. 01:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it really necessary?  01:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. 01:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Who cares. -- Nx  / talk 01:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You, apparently - you built the byzantine system of copyright notices we are now saddled with. 03:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No I did not. It was already here, except noone gave a rat's ass about it. I tried to get you to use it by improving the process tremendously, but if you think it's just a waste of time, then I can fix that. -- Nx  / talk 08:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed.  01:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The copyright holders? 01:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think any template will do the job if the image is non-free and fair use can't be justified. I'm inclined to not pay much attention to trivial images. That's a legally half-arsed position, but I think it's pragmatic and generally respectful of copyright holders. The template is as good as any, and at least it's honest. -- 01:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Wp's smileys mostly claim to be "own work" but one has an interesting legend:

My feeling is that the image copyright templates, uploading forms & structured information summaries are just a tedious & bureaucratic waste of time. Having a template that basically declares "we're using this image illegally" just undermines the whole point of being pedantic about copyright in the first place. Writing a short description noting the source if known & fair use rationale if applicable should be sufficient. If people want to use copyright templates as well or instead, they can, but I see no reason why they should be mandatory. 02:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Pi, can you post an example source site? 02:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For the Melbourne Cup Day Holydai I used clip art from here. It does say free, but not actual free. 02:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! 03:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For that one I'd just type "free clip art from (url)". 03:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * @weaseloid: I think the idea is that of Caesar's wife. How can we take the piss out of CP if we're as bad, sort of thing. 02:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't need to put ourselves through a ridiculous amount of extra red tape just to prove that we're not Conservapedia.  02:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a lot of hassle to choose a licence. In cases where no licence seems suitable it normally means that the image either shouldn't be here or we should throw caution to the wind and chuck it up if the context seems reasonable. I wouldn't worry too much about ripping-off an image for a one-off joke in a talk page, but perhaps not for an article in which the sole purpose of the image is to make the article look omgcool. -- 02:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree that it's not a hassle. Used to be, file upload took moments.  Last time I did it I had to wade through pages of lame red tape, and it still didn't make it "easy" to pick a canned license.  The whole process needs to be streamlined and revamped or even just reverted to the MW default process.  03:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My memory might be faulty, but the process used to be "If I care enough I'll look up where the template is (usually by going to Help:Copyright notices), and slap one on manually. If not, someone with OCD will maybe fix it. And when someone comes along to point out that we're all a bunch of hypocrites, we'll just label them a troll and tell them to fuck off. ADDENDUM: If the image was uploaded by CUR, we will suddenly switch to anal-retentive mode." -- Nx  / talk 09:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It use to be easy because pictures were uploaded with no concern for the copyright status. 03:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but we policed ourselves and it worked. Now half our images have a garish NO COPYRIGHT NOTICE banner even if the uploader typed "my picture, released to public domain"  The whole mess is overkill IMO.  03:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ture, I didn't program that bot with much sense. It lead to the funny situation were on a couple of pictures you uploaded saying "unfair use" and it slapped a tag on saying "this image is claiming fair use". 04:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's funny, at least! 04:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It used to be that the copyright templates existed but were rarely used, & I see no problem with that system at all. Slapping a template on the page does not change whether the image is being used legally or not & will have no effect on whether the copyright holder is likely to challenge it, so as I see it, it is unnecessary extra work.  The forms we have to go through now, & the fact that you're still likely to hassled for picking the wrong template, make uploading an image a generally unpleasant experience.  & When it gets to agonising over exactly which licence smileys are released under, there's clearly something wrong: the fact that they're released with the intention to use them freely should be enough.   10:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "You may Distribute or Publicly Perform the Work only under the terms of this License. You must include a copy of, or the Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) for, this License with every copy of the Work You Distribute or Publicly Perform." "You must keep intact all notices that refer to this License and to the disclaimer of warranties with every copy of the Work You Distribute or Publicly Perform." "f You Distribute, or Publicly Perform the Work or any Adaptations or Collections, You must, unless a request has been made pursuant to Section 4(a), keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and provide, reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing: (i) the name of the Original Author (or pseudonym, if applicable) if supplied, and/or if the Original Author and/or Licensor designate another party or parties (e.g., a sponsor institute, publishing entity, journal) for attribution ("Attribution Parties") in Licensor's copyright notice, terms of service or by other reasonable means, the name of such party or parties; (ii) the title of the Work if supplied; (iii) to the extent reasonably practicable, the URI, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work; and (iv), consistent with Section 3(b), in the case of an Adaptation, a credit identifying the use of the Work in the Adaptation (e.g., "French translation of the Work by Original Author," or "Screenplay based on original Work by Original Author"). The credit required by this Section 4 (b) may be implemented in any reasonable manner; provided, however, that in the case of a Adaptation or Collection, at a minimum such credit will appear, if a credit for all contributing authors of the Adaptation or Collection appears, then as part of these credits and in a manner at least as prominent as the credits for the other contributing authors. For the avoidance of doubt, You may only use the credit required by this Section for the purpose of attribution in the manner set out above and, by exercising Your rights under this License, You may not implicitly or explicitly assert or imply any connection with, sponsorship or endorsement by the Original Author, Licensor and/or Attribution Parties, as appropriate, of You or Your use of the Work, without the separate, express prior written permission of the Original Author, Licensor and/or Attribution Parties." --  Nx  / talk 10:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You were given an opportunity to comment on the change before I implemented it and you were invited to improve it. I guess it doesn't matter whether I ask first or not when I go around ruining your wiki.
 * I've reverted it to the old upload form btw, in case you hadn't noticed, and I removed that annoying license dropdown too. -- Nx  / talk 11:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I started a forum thread to discuss this. Forum:Do_we_care_about_copyright_licences%3F. Heavy debate in the bar distracts from drinking. -- 11:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Gardening
I have never enoyed gardening. Hated it in fact. I have just moved into a new flat that has an excellent garden, sun and all that. Today I spent the early afternoon planting veges, tilling soil, watering and composting and, shit, I really enjoyed it for the first time. I also brought myself a mescaline cactus. Acei9 01:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Best to keep at it. I had a similar thing with the garden in my old place, but lost interest and it turned in to a jungle. In the end I only ever associated the garden with work and it kind of ruined it for me. -- 02:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried to plant a scotch tree, but it kept pining for the lochs. 04:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I poured whiskey on my lawn so it would come up half cut. Totnesmartin (talk) 09:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Physical labour can be very rewarding it releases endorphins. If you can slog your guts out and have something to show for it at the end of the day, then there's a great feeling of satisfaction in saying "I did that". 20:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or, alternatively, if nothing grows and your garden is a complete failure you now have something else to bitch about to your friends. 21:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Victory is yours
My blog has failed. My attempts to irritate you have finally failed. The authoritarian Loya Jirga has destroyed your site. There is nothing I can do to save it. I really have left you now. Be in peace.

If some fascist decides that this edit should be burned or reverted, I will engage in an hour long wiki war this time tomorrow. It will be annoying and messy. This is the only request I make. You'll never see me again, cunts.

MC. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Youwin / talk / contribs
 * Hi MC! Yes, the Lumpy Jackasses have finally reined this site's silliness in and corralled the loose cannons.  Finally we have peace in our time.  04:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * How many time has he left now? Six? Seven? 04:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm pleasantly surprised my parting shot was tolerated. Well done guys. I was just about to launch a massive war on the internetz but you pre-empted me. Goodbye. (If you try to delete this I will use it as an excuse to declare war on you)
 * I actually forgot about you till you reminded me.--Thanatos (talk) 00:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal of "clear" template
The table-of-contents is about three pixels wide and is several pages long. Why does the "clear" template not work at that point? 05:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * On my 1200 wide used laptop monitor all the "clear" tag did is push the TOC down below the forums box and leave a big hunk of whitespace above it. Not sayin gthis can't be improved, but that wasn't the way that would work for "everyone".  05:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Was it still overly narrow? When I put the clear template in, it did indeed leave a wadge of white-space, but the TOC was reduced to a manageable size. 05:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing roughly 1/3 TOC, 1/3 fora, 1/3 chalkboard. I think the real solution is to figure out how to get the fora box and the chalkboard to be one on top of the other, leaving more room for the TOC.  06:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I made the forum box a fixed width recently, because previously it was being squashed thin when there were long titles in the TOC. I also see roughly 1/3 TOC, 1/3 fora, 1/3 chalkboard, which is how I set it to look, but admittedly I'm using a widescreen laptop with the browser maximised.   When the browser is narrower, the forum box now squashes the TOC.   10:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've now put the chalkboard inside the forum box & all of it in the bartop template. 11:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent solution! I can't believe we didn't think of it ages ago.  And thanks for getting us off our asses to fix it, LX.  00:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Odd computer issue
Figure asking here is as good as anywhere. Just bought used laptop and putting the stuff on it that I want. Used IE to go get firefox (the only thing it's good for), all well and fine. Run firefox, and it can't find the internet. IE working "fine" (I'm typing this on the lappy using IE). Any ideas? Oh, this is on XP SP3 (I think it's SP3 anyway).

Also also, then I went to get skype using IE, and it balks - "problems connecting with the download server" and when I click on "try another" or some such, it opens a new tab in firefox, which can't find the internet. Which one of you jokers' idea was this??

Thanks for any advice in advance...

The good news is that the corldless mouse & KB a friend gave work with it nicely! 01:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Chrome chrome chrome. -- 01:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yet more proof that Mei==awesome. -- 01:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Try Tools->Options->Advanced->Network->Connection and check that the proxies etc are all as the should be. Jack Hughes (talk) 01:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, "no proxy" is checked just like on this machine. Gonna try chrome just for fun.  Then I might just put in my XP pro SP3 disc and start from scratch ;)  01:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You might have a problem with ipv6 in Firefox. You can disable it by typing about:config in the address bar and going to the option network.dns.disableIPV6, right click and select toggle. Bondurant (talk) 10:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Firewall? Try disabling the firewall and see if it makes any difference?  10:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's probably the best suggestion. If it's a new install it may have the security settings ramped up and will be blocking programs other than IE. Try Opera and Chrome to see if they trigger the firewall message and then reinstall FF from scratch. It may also be dependent on what you have as "default browser", it may not have switched to FF (or it has switched to FF which is why your Skype problem is opening FF instead of an IE window). 12:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I ended up deciding that there was some crappy firewall type stuff left on the thing, so I borrowed a Dell OEM XP disc from a friend and started fresh. Of course then I was missing some key drivers like ethernet and video, but a nice young man in Bangalore helped me load up the 10/100 driver from the Dell site, which worked. Then I went and got firefox, all good, downloaded random display drivers from Dell until one did the job properly. Now to go get skype for this thing! 19:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, MS doesn't like the license ID sticker on the bottom of the machine... even when I get the 8's and B's sorted out. Hmmm, I wonder if that's an O not a 0? 00:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Queer computer issue
I have a potpal that I have fucked up, fixxed and fukt up again but good, the "product key" no longer allows the Windoze (SP1) to install.

I was thinking of installing a Linux product of some sort, (Ubuntu was suggested) and I have an .iso of it burned and ready to go. I wanted to run the Ubuntu and just get rid of the Microsift product....Question: Is this possible?

If the reply is overly long please refer to mine talk page (which is where my sig leads to). And thanks. CЯacke ® 07:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's possible. If you have documents, mp3s, photos, etc. then make sure you back them up onto an external drive, as your windows drive will be reformatted. You can then copy them back to your Linux installation.
 * If you're not yet totally sure about making the jump, then you can play around with a live cd for a bit, which won't install anything until you tell it to. You can also shrink your windows partition and install Linux alongside windows, which is handy while you're getting used to things. Bondurant (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, given the choice of having no laptop or having a laptop that is running linux....
 * I have been afeared of linux since the first I heard of it was backing in the olden days when one had to compile the kernel (manually) and install wanted components piecemeal [circa 1998?]. Another query, would it be able to see (and work with) the (household) network? Didn't think so. CЯacke ®
 * I believe that you need to take up Latin-American dancing and learn how to Samba. 09:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I echo Bondurant's recommendation of downloading the Ubuntu live CD and try before you buy. This will give you:-
 * Confirmation that Ubuntu runs on your configuration
 * A safe environment to check out file sharing etc
 * The chance to load Ubuntu for real when you've seen how truly wonderful it is.
 * My Linux of choice is Mint which is very similar to Ubuntu but doesn't have the same hardware issues with my very old and strange (cheap) machine
 * Jack Hughes (talk) 10:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are running it on a laptop the Ubuntu Netbook Remix is the way to go. I have it on my Eee PC and it is much more convenient with the smaller screen. 10:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with that unless your laptop has a very low resolution or your laptop is truly ancient. The netbook version is quite a departure from what you may be used to in Windows. I use a standard distro (OpenSUSE) on my laptop (screen resolution 1280*800) and it's fine. Nice and quick, and the whizzy graphical effects work well.
 * Network-wise, Linux works very well in that respect. Not sure how things work on Ubuntu, but generally, it is a case of installing Samba-client (or something similarly named), ensuring the Windows workgroup is set correctly and then working through a wizard to find the shared directory. Google is your friend when learning linux, as a quick search for "Ubuntu windows share" or something like that will return plenty of help. Bondurant (talk) 11:10, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

One caveat re: media files. I have over 2000 cds that were ripped as WMA files that are, for the most part, only playable w/ windows media player, and are useless on my Linux netbook. Same goes with WAV versions, I believe. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought WMA's were supported by gstreamer (once the proper codecs are installed), but if not, you can try [mplayerhq.hu mplayer]. -- Nx  / talk 18:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? That would be awesome. How does one install codecs? (Noob, me)...TheoryOfPractice (talk) 18:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If you're using Ubuntu, one of the multitudinous package managers; it's basically the same in most self-respecting distros. 18:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * medibuntu. You need w32codecs (or w64codecs if 64 bit) + mplayer from normal ubuntu repos. I think Xine can also play wma9, but I don't know how easy it is to swap out gstreamer for xine nowadays. -- Nx  / talk 18:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

And now for you incredibly rare dose of irrationality (from yours truly). (Discussion about penises!!!)
It's irrational, I know, but I am so incredibly over-the-edge pissed off right now. I am actually having a nigh-impossible time talking myself down from this wave of rage.

For those interested, my wife joined an anti-circumcision page on Facebook titled Saving Penises.

As some of you may know, I have a son. As none of you know, he is NOT circumcised. When we found out we were having a boy, I was ecstatic but the first thing out of my wife's mouth was "Oh my God. What about circumcision?" I was like "What about it?"

Dumb move on my part.

She worried herself sick about it and read and read and watched videos and would NOT STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

I was actually no better about it myself. Every point she'd raise I would counter with some half-cocked (no pun intended), half-formed idea. After a week or two, I realized what an ass I was being and how illogically and irrationally I was approaching the situation. I finally capitulated because in all honesty, it IS a cosmetic procedure. There's no real reason to do it. Things can go wrong. We're not 16 year old kids with no idea how to keep a penis sanitary. Big deal. Fine, we weren't going to do it.

I thought that was the end. It wasn't. She keeps bringing up how "awful it is that so many parents do that to their children, don't they care?" and on and on about how traumatized the boys will be and how their sex lives will be ruined by the removal and on and on and on...

And now there's this web page comprised of 88% females (real stat pulled from the page itself) who are clamoring endlessly about how barbaric and blah blah blah blah blah... They DON'T HAVE PENISES. They don't know what it's like to have one. They know nothing about it except what they are told.

You know whose parents circumcised their kid because they loved him and thought it was the right thing to do? MINE. That's right. Mine. They cared. An "awful" fucking lot. They weren't barbarians. They were middle-class Americans trying to take care of their son. You know how traumatized I was by it? I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER THE FUCKING PROCEDURE. You know how impaired my sex life is? Not at all. It works just fucking fine enough for me, thank you very much.

My real beef isn't with the whole circ/no-circ argument at all. I don't give a flying fuck, really. I am circumcised. My son is not. I made half of that choice and I don't regret it. I guess I just don't understand where people without dicks feel as though they can pass judgement and make a value call on those who do.

This must be what it feels like for women with the whole abortion thing. Fuck. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 02:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Another reason I'm glad I'm not having children. Seriously though--I'm cut, and while I kinda wish I wasn't for a few reasons, I have, oh, about 5768 other issues I need to resolve about myself and the world before this becomes something I'm willing to invest too much time in. I'd like to see the procedure banned--even for religious reasons, but there are other, more pressing problems facing North American boys these days. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 02:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Wait a second. Since when are newborns capable of formulating memories that last into adulthood?  I fail to see how there would be any "trauma" at all.  -- 02:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I think you might argue that the knowledge that one has been maimed for no good reason might cause a certain degree of, if not trauma, at least emotional baggage. Not the same trauma as remembering a painful/disfiguring procedure, but still some sort of emotional difficulty. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 02:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC)Exactly. The person being "protected" from trauma is the parent. My heart broke when I held my daughter and heard her cries during vitamin K and hepatitis shots right after she was born but, you know what? It was for her benefit, not mine. She's not going to remember it. My wife however, did, and I had to talk her down from refusing them when my son was born. I already ceded the circumcision thing and I thought I was clear with her on that; circumcision = unnecessary = not important (because we weren't doing it). Vaccinations and not bleeding out through the umbillical stump? VERY FUCKING IMPORTANT. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Whether it's fundamentalists & creationists, or circumcision - America, watched from Europe, looks strange. I guess the opposite is true too. Editor at CPmały książe 08:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I have no comment to make here, mostly out of a desire not to gross out Dan Savage, who would think I am hot if I didn't out myself as uncut. OOPS! I like being whole. 09:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * OK here's a female POV. Many societies practise female circumcision on young girls which often results in disfigurement and pain. I oppose routine male circumcision out of solidarity with other humans because it has become a cultural thing and is not something that is necessary. In the UK there are not many men who are circumcised as common practice except for religious reasons. My nephew was circumcised however because of some physical problem. It is quite possible for men to look after their personal hygiene without circumcision, just as we girls look after ours. Although I have been told that cutting (or breaking) the frenulum makes it easier as the foreskin can be fully rolled back. One bloke I was with had the misfortune to break his frenulum just at the point of orgasm and it didn't half result in a lot of blood (and cost me a new mattress). Afterwards he said that he found it easier to keep his cock clean as the foreskin would stay rolled back on its own (the frenulum tries to pull it back over the glans) but the downside was that he didn't get as much stimulation without the action of the foreskin pulling on the frenulum. So although a man might say that infant circumcision hasn't affected his sex life doesn't know what it might have been like. Of course circumcision also acts as a badge, in Nazi Germany it was an easy way of identifying male Jews. One arab guy I knew said that he wasn't circumcised until he was 12 years-old, that it was extremely painful, and that all he was allowed to do was sit in a cold mountain stream to take the pain away. In my opinion, mutilating babies of any sex for social reasons is just not on. 09:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My frenulum tore over a period of a few weeks after my first girlfiend went on the pill and I no longer had the protection of latex. Sex was a bit painful during that period, and - yes - there will be was blood. I can't say that anything felt different after I healed, but it was a little bit easier to clean. Bondurant (talk) 11:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My girlfriend and I actually have been discussing this at odd random intervals. I say to her that I think circumcision is an unneeded procedure, and unless there is a valid reason for it to be performed, I feel it is morally right to give a person a right to their own body. She disagrees, saying that since I am cut, any sons we may have should be as well. I disagree with her, bringing up the cultures that perform genital mutilation. What I am having difficulty in convincing her is that just because something is done does not mean it is right. I don't too much mind being circumcised (there would be something wrong with me if I was angry over it) but for lack of a legitimate reason, I am against it. 01:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly agree, Java. I am of the mind that since it is unnecessary, there was no true logical reason to go through with it. After having a few days to mull it over, I have come to the conclusion that my whole problem with the page is the page's tone itself. It's OK to be anti-circ, but to be so in a tone that denigrates parents who have made the decision TO circumcise is on a level that smacks of either ignorance (the self-proclaimed 88% female membership) [Further note: This is not to say that females are ignorant, just that they do not have penises themselves to base an opinion on, mind you.] or the "wrongness" expressed by yourself. Whether the parents' reasoning is based in religion or "it's always been done" doesn't make it right per se; it doesn't make it inherently wrong, either. The tone even resonates to people like myself, who never had a choice in the matter, but find themselves lambasted and branded as "freaks" by the members of the page/group. If it's an internal bias, I can accept that and learn to manage. The Foxhole Atheist (talk) 04:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Related?
13:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)