RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation/Archive24

Coop votes
10 votes to Ban, 10 votes to block for 1 week, plus sysoprevoke. Both options are for Raven alone. Make a judgement call. 02:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, please, bring some closure to this issue. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 03:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So the mods need to make the final decision? Thunderclapper (talk) 10:25, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The fuck is this shit now? AceModerator 12:32, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Raven & EK are back. RWRW unbanned EK & she changed her name to "ZE" and "ZE" unbanned Raven. Thunderclapper (talk) 12:36, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding Raven, it was disingenuous to LANCB before the vote completed only to return after a short period of time. I support sysoprevoke given that Raven has essentially engaged in intellectual dishonesty in an attempt to avoid punishment. A ban for 22 day seems reasonable even though it was a minority position, it was midway between the two tied positions. Bongolian (talk) 17:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You know, I warned you all this might happen...but for what its worth as someone who vocally supported permaban in the original coop I am still (mostly) okay with Bongolian's proposal so I hope that can set a precedent for others who did as well.-Flandres (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't support banning these users, they should all be given one more chance. However, one immature piece of behavior associated with users recently on this website is repeatedly threatening to leave the website and close their account/s then they come back again a few days later and start up editing again under a different username or the same one. Is there way we can stop this? I would support a full ban for any user that does this from now on. If a user claims to have quit the website or places a "retired" template on their user-page this means they have left this website to never come back. We can't keep giving these users three or four extra lives, they repeatedly threaten to leave this website yet they are back a day later with all their rights restored. This brings stupid drama to this website. Once your out and fully decide on that, your out I say. Some of these users have been given so many chances, its getting ridiculous now. I say give all these users one more chance but if they break that get rid of them. I am not very active on this website right now, that will change shortly, but every time I log in here there are several users involved in unneeded drama and it's making us look bad. Just my 2 cents. John66 (talk) 17:59, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think perma-ing users over LANCBs is worth anyone's time. Someone would have to patrol it, it'd be violating userspace policy (unless we revamp CS, and within regards to that: Bob's proposal to try it was met with exceptional negativity) and there's just a general unwillingness to do it. The socking argument is a fair one (although not one that actually exists in practice beyoned banning Mikemikev's alts, so it's not a particularly good one). Let users LANCB if they wish, it's not hurting anyone beyond fucking up the look of their userspace for a bit until they obviously undo it again and maybe some people poking fun at them. 18:07, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting thanks for the info. What about if a sysop or sysop with tech rights advertises an LANCB - does that mean all their rights are removed? I noticed this does not seem to be the case currently because sysops and two with tech rights threatened to leave, then left, then came back a few days later but had all their rights installed. John66 (talk) 18:20, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You might want to read this recent conversation to avoid reinventing the wheel. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:24, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

LANCB is ordinarily meaningless, but this was a special case in which there was an active coop case. GR attempted to avoid punishment by LANCBing, then un-LANCBing after the case. The votes at the time of coop closure were: unanimous for sysoprevoke, with 10 for permaban, 5 for 22 week ban, and 10 for 1 week ban (:RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive104). Given the post-coop intellectual dishonesty exhibited by GR, I don't think there's any reasonable argument for the 1 week ban at this point. Bongolian (talk) 18:26, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I`m with Bongolian on this. — Oxyaena Harass  18:38, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link Bob, I see you pretty much was asking the same as me. I am going to LANCB now, see you all tomorrow! John66 (talk) 18:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Was the reasonable thing to do re:Bongolian blocking whatever his new account name is, for 22 days. Shabi  DOO  19:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * EK's ban at worst was just a week and I think that week expired. I don't think she made the right call to unban GR especially without bringing it up in RationalWiki:All things in moderation. It was too quiet and that would've caused a stir even if her intentions are good and Raven decides to improve his behavior. 19:16, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I wasn't banned for any period of time and the only person who said I should be was KerKer, who just hates me personally for off-wiki reasons. I was blocked by my own request because I intended to quit, and it's only because some people here talked me into coming back that I returned at all. 02:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I see that the 22 day ban has already been implemented. I fully support it. I also sincerely hope that Raven has changed his ways. Spud (talk) 05:31, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Whom Dysk banned for 3 months and that he shouldn't appeal it, or else... (threat. Also, KerKer said this on the deleted cord) Also, Dysk is a former Kiwi (saw that on the deleted cord aswell), so I can take a guess what the consequences are... Thunderclapper (talk) 08:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I have strong suspicions that Ze and D are both trolls of Marcus-level proportions. It seems they do a lot of stirring of the pot, and I've read not good things about what they've done on other websites. Fawcett (talk) 19:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop stirring shit, D isn't even here. — Oxyaena Harass  19:13, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Oxy, again
I know this might be opening an old wound, but something struck me as...off about the way Oxy was treated. She surrendered her tech rights, then was subsequently sysoprevoked in a dispute partly with GodlessRaven, who IMO has been kind of a shithead. Something seems a bit wrong to me, and I think I've always kind of disliked outright sysoprevoking or banning someone. People who have known me for a while know that I tried to be more lenient during these disputes. So, here is what I propose:


 * 1) The conditional return of Oxy's mop (and ONLY her mop) for now.
 * 2) The placement of Oxyaena under probation; if she violates the terms of this probation, then her sysop rights can be taken away at-will, without a coop case.
 * 3) The appointment of a moderator or active sysop to monitor Oxy and to make sure she is keeping within the terms of her probation. I would suggest either RWRW or LeftyGreenMario for this; they tend to have the coolest heads on the mod team and might be able to keep Oxy on the straight and narrow.

As for the terms of her probation, I propose the following:


 * 1) Oxyaena cannot give a block exceeding 3.14159 days to anyone who is not a spam account.
 * 2) Oxyaena cannot use the Vandal Bin on users with more than 30 edits.
 * 3) Oxyaena has an active obligation to deescalate a confrontation with another user, with the possible exception of when another user is clearly trying to provoke her through malicious action (e.g., intentionally misgendering her). Oxyaena must contact a moderator to resolve the situation if she feels she cannot resolve the conflict diplomatically. Note: This does not extend to talking about people who are not users; calling out shitheads IRL is what we do, and Oxy is one of our loudest callers out of shitheadery.

I know that this is a painful wound to open, but simply banning users or sysoprevoking them isn't helping. I saw the I/P dispute, I saw how ineffective sysoprevoking Mona and Avenger turned out to be. We need to actively work to bring this together and try to get the users calm on this issue. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree to all these terms. — Oxyaena Harass  16:38, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No Scream!! (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's all you can say, without any further justification? It's a reasonable proposal. — Oxyaena Harass  16:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, and if Oxy’s on board then I say give it a go. 16:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean no offense to most of the people who voted for it, but her promotion seemed very...vindictive. Especially because it was started by users who already disliked her hijacking a discussion about someone else. So I support this proposal.-Flandres (talk) 16:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It was not vindictive. It was punitive and preventative.  Punitive because facing consequences for her misbehavior will discourage her from misbehaving further, preventative because she can't do as much damage without sysop rights.  IMO, we shouldn't be having this discussion until at least another month or two--Hastur! (talk)  17:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No offense again, but you jumped in on a discussion about other users to take down a user you have repeatedly expressed problems with and that can be said for a lot of the people who voted to revoke. Forgive me if I do not take your claims not to be vindictive at their word.-Flandres (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Guys, let's calm down. Regardless of intentions in the past, the point here is to show forgiveness and mercy. So Ze, to answer your question, if it is best to extend a similar offer to Raven, then we should. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not how I remember it. There was some drama that Oxyaena was yet again neck deep in and at least partly responsible for.  I  proposed putting her in sysoprevoke to curtail said drama, particularly because she's a routine source of conflict and rights abuses--Hastur! (talk)  18:22, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, your memory of it may be flawed precisely because you consider her a long term problem you must take any opportunity to remove,(also "routine source of conflict and rights abuses" is overlooking how many of the people she was involved with were flame war causing concern trolls).-Flandres (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Five out of six moderators are not "flame war causing concern trolls"--Hastur! (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. Try looking back at the flame wars in the first place. — Oxyaena Harass  18:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hastur, did you read my post or not? I said a lot of people she has blocked in disputes were trolls, not the mods! Reading comprehension is a lost art nowadays, I swear...-Flandres (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Unless you would extend the same courtesy to Raven and others in commuting sanctions immediately I don't see how this would really help anything, we already have it a situation where in 1-3 months oxy is pretty much guaranteed her sysop rights back under probation, probably under similar terms to these, per the last coop on the subject. Trying to accelerate it makes the whole affair pointless imo since there was already a coop that determined it was best to wait. 17:00, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy, I could possibly even like you personally but you seem to me to be about twelve or thirteen and I don't consider that mature enough for any more rights. Scream!! (talk) 17:03, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I`m uh actually 19, and I was sysop for over five years before being sysoprevoked. I joined when I was 13. — Oxyaena Harass  17:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Really don't see how that works in your favor. That's five years of evidence against you.--Hastur! (talk)  18:22, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You don't even know my record, and yes, this is what Flandres meant when he says you obviously have a vendetta against me. — Oxyaena Harass  18:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't personally think there is any substantial argument that oxy won't get sysop back, the only real consideration is why this should be done now rather than later as was pretty much agreed a week ago, and whether bringing this proposal to the coop now would actually succeed. 17:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think Oxyaena needs sysop rights. If she want to contribute to the wiki she can do so without them--Hastur! (talk)  17:26, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is customary to give good-faith users sysop rights, in order to level the playing field with other users. Oxy can be combative, but she is good-faith if anything. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Would you extend that same comment to Raven? I'm not against the principle as long as it's applied fairly. 17:38, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "Oxy is one of our loudest callers out of shitheadery." And given her history edit warring, this is a reason to restore her mop?Ariel31459 (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. Oxy stands for her truths and calls out shitheadery from people both on and off the site. So long as she keeps yelling at the shitheads off the site and lets the mods handle the ones on the site, then she should have her mop. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:00, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I can already imagine Ace's reaction... Thunderclapper (talk) 17:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Probably won't be good. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:00, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I can picture it pretty well but let's see. 18:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This wiki is supposed to make it's points in the articles, not by "yelling at shitheads." The fact is one shouldn't yell at a shithead for the same reason one shouldn't argue with stupid people: they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. (S.L. Clemens).Ariel31459 (talk) 18:17, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I edit mainspace more than most people here. — Oxyaena Harass  18:31, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

What you did was uncalled for, and you're only further proving Flandres' point. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:43, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, here's what I did.--Hastur! (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Still uncalled for, and I couldn't do anything about it. It's unfair, I`m not a sysop, I can't undo my own block. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hastur, may I suggest you take a step back where Oxy is concerned for a while?-Flandres (talk) 18:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * At this point, she's so combative with everyone, half the editors here ought to "take a step back"--Hastur! (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If she is so "combative" why do you keep engaging with her? Nothing obligates you to, hmhmhm...-Flandres (talk) 18:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I`m willing to bury the hatchet with Raven, and as for Hastur, that was uncalled for, if I were in your place I wouldn't have done it. Remember when I tried getting you out of sysoprevoke and restoring your mop? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:54, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You have to ask yourself who the common denominator is, Flandres--Hastur! (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * When many cases of her involvement in banning users were people like Unlicensed Thinker or theDarkMaster being the common denominator is not such a bad thing. And in these more recent conflicts you(along with other returning old guard) are pretty common yourself...it takes two to keep a feud alive, after all. The context of a conflict can make allegations about common denominators quite meaningless.-Flandres (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

As someone who voted in favor of the original vote (and still agrees with the outcome of that vote), here are my thoughts. First, I don't think the sysoprevoke should be permanent. I do genuinely believe that Oxy is willing to change her behavior and eventually get her mop back with the same rights as she had before (tech included if she wants it). Second, I can find agreement with the terms as specified by Ronin, although I will propose two additional stipulations:


 * 1) Oxy must put this notice on her userpage and may not remove it, unless the mob overturns stipulations as expressed. This is copied from a different user (specifically Bryan Sees coop). Specifically, she is not allowed to remove the notice when she places a Template:LANCB template on her userpage either. This is in order to both help moderators and herself remind her of the stipulations that may be placed on her.
 * 2) Oxy must keep a user subpage linked on her userpage in which she explains for each account that she bans for ban evasion what user it is, and what behavior caused her to ban it. Additionally, when blocking for ban evasion, she must specify the user that is evading a ban.

That second one is because as expressed in one of the Archives of this very page, Oxy's most used block reason is ban evasion with no reasons attached to it, and as examined by Nutty Roux during that section, she often is overzealous in using it and tends to block vandals permanently for ban evasion or sometimes ends up banning regulars who aren't logged in but are critical of her actions. Hence, keeping a log as to why she blocked someone for ban evasion would be useful (and I recommend a user subpage here since the block page has limitations in what you can enter and she often doesn't do it + it's easier to find for someone who needs it). 20:44, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Definitely. She would definitely have to put those stipulations on her userpage, just like the last person we used probation on. Though I think that by preventing her from blocking for an extended period of time (aside from spam accounts) she would be forced to explain to the mods what the situation is. RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:22, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that’s a no from me. There was a vote and Oxy lost the vote, the only vote being against was Oxy. So the punishment stands. AceModerator 00:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also Oxy is so desperate for his powers it makes me wonder why she wants them so badly. AceModerator 00:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A vote which didn't follow proper procedure, was finished in less than a day, and was voted exclusively on by people with vendettas against me. You should know there were abstaining votes and heavy dissension, and stop with your fear mongering crap. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  02:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "abstaining votes and heavy dissension," I'm impressed at the mental gymnastics that must have been necessary for you to feel that nobody voting in your favor somehow vindicates you--Hastur! (talk) 02:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Voted on by people with a vendetta against you? And this in your mind vacates the vote? I’ll make sure the NZ government knows that during the election coming up this year that people who are anti the current government may vote against them. Shocking how people who don’t like government use their VOTES(!) to remove them from power. Amazing. AceModerator 02:53, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In all seriousness Oxy, you lost and this craven behaviour you are still harping in about to somehow suggest the vote wasn’t fair does nothing to improve your standing. AceModerator 02:55, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I`m not the one who posted this segment, and the fact that there are several people here who either have second thoughts about their votes, or were disturbed by it in the first place, suggests your sentiment isn't as universal as it seems. I`m not the only one who says the vote wasn't fair, at least two other people on here (Ronin and Flandres) have also signaled they thought the vote wasn't fair. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  02:59, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, that’s tough shit for you then because there was a vote and you lost. Starting another vote is the only way you’ll win this. A community vote began it and only a community vote will end it. AceModerator 03:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I vote  NO!   to restoring any of Oxy's any rights. Person has admitted on-wiki to having serious mental health issues that affect her judgement, she should never have the toolset again. Fawcett (talk) 19:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Literally no one has a problem with this guy insinuating I`m dangerously mentally unstable? This shit right here is what I`m talking about. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  19:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It was uncivil (ad hom). I have blocked Fawcett for 3 days. Bongolian (talk) 19:29, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Re: Raven
So pretty much as the above thing with Oxy, except with another person who got sanctioned. Essentially there was succession of related coop cases over a short lived but heated editorial dispute, in one of these coop cases there was a vote on Godless Raven, the breakdown of votes is as follows.

[A]Indef ban (10 votes)

[B]Temp ban (14 votes total)

[B.1]One week ban (10 votes) [B.2]three week ban (4 votes)

Raven has already been banned for a week since then, tho reblocked by a mod based on the minority option (B2) above. Additionally, Raven has been put in sysoprevoke, as all the coop options that were given included that, despite Raven having at no point misused the sysop tools, which if you follow RM's logic above and historical precedent on this site, is undesirable. Further to that, Raven promised to LGM that he would behave better this time, and LGM has publically said Raven has abided by it so far. Raven has also said he will make a public apology the moment he gets unblocked if people want him to, which they probably will. As much as that last editorial dispute did get heated Raven has at every point made some effort to respond to feedback, and the vast majority of Ravens work on the wiki was productive and unchallenged. Raven has been registered a year and made over a thousand edits in the time he was active, most of which people were happy with.

Therefore as this as good a place as any, I have made the following two polls, both to settle how long Raven is supposed to be blocked for, but more importantly what to do with the sysoprevoke issue. 18:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Unblock Raven as time served

 * 1)  18:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2)  18:44, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  18:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, but with less tolerance for any bullshit going forward. 19:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Let's begin the healing. And what Duce said RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) I'd say he's on his last footing though. Let's apply WP:ROPE here.  20:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) Lets see how it goes. --RWRW (talk) 21:11, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4)  03:33, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) Don't buy the argument he dodged any bullet with the LANCB. Obnoxious, for sure, but so's every failure to nail the ANCB bit, and there seems to be little appetite for penalising that more generally. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:05, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) But feel free to hand out 1 day blocks at every single minor transgression. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:13, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Keep Raven blocked for 2 more weeks

 * 1) Scream!! (talk) 18:45, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) What Shabidoo said after my vote was cast.Flandres (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) You've presented an extremely skewed way of looking at the votes. If you look at it in a far more reasonable way: 10 votes for a one week ban. 14 votes for 22 days OR WORSE. 22 days is an extremely reasonable compromise. Jesus if the guy cannot wait three weeks to simmer down then I don't believe he's serious about coming back to the site sans the obnoxiousness.  Shabi  DOO  19:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Your method is also skewed. The only real majority consensus is that Raven should not be permabanned; lumping the more severe end of the "No permaban" camp together with the "permaban" is pretty sketchy votecounting, if you ask me. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:37, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Saying he should be banned for a week(or more generally given a light punishment) is not reflecting the majority of the community either, for may who voted for the 22 day option said they thought a week was too short.-Flandres (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) —cosmikdebris talk stalk 19:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) If he hadn't LANCB'd, he could easily have been permabanned. He dodged that punishment. If he's serious about being a good and productive user on this wiki, which I believe he can be, he'll sit out his ban without moaning anymore and then start anew. Spud (talk) 23:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Remove Ravens sysoprevoke

 * 1)  18:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2)  18:44, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Keep Raven in sysoprevoke

 * 1) Scream!! (talk) 18:45, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Flandres (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) Of course...why on Earth would we remove so soon?  Shabi  DOO  19:06, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) For a bit longer, at least until we have had an opportunity to evaluate Raven’s behavior after unblocking. 19:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  19:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) —cosmikdebris talk stalk 19:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 7) Thunderclapper (talk) 19:36, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 20:45, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I voted to unblock him, but for the time being it might be an idea to keep him in sysoprevoke. --RWRW (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Yeah, he can edit the wiki without the tools for the time being. I spent years in other wikis without sysop tools, he'll be fine.  03:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There’s literally no reason why not being a sysop should have any bearing on activity here unless blocked maliciously. AceModerator 04:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Er, no, wikis have different rules on who can be sysop or not. I wasn't sysop not because I misbehaved, just that there's limit on how many sysops can be there. What I mean is that I contributed fine without sysop tools and Raven can too if I can for so many years. 04:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I still very happily contribute to several wikis without being a sysop. If GR's going to be on probation, he needs to be just a regular user. Spud (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was unanimous in the coop. Bongolian (talk) 16:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Needlessly high maintenance in his brief time here. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 01:45, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Let him keep the sysoprevoke, I think this is the pragmatic approach. Adam Warlock (talk) 17:30, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Goat

 * Are we really voting on this again?--Hastur! (talk) 18:42, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Apparently Scream!! (talk) 18:45, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We are voting primarily on the sysoprevoke issue because I feel like it was shoehorned into the previous vote that didn't need it. But also there is some discrepancy in the time that they got blocked. Now I wasn't originally planning to bother but since Oxy has been brought up it would be unfair not to. 18:48, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact that we're voting about this again makes it clear to me that we should ignore LANCBs and apply procedure. We should already be done with this.  Permabanning yourself is a meaningless action, if you don't want to edit the wiki just don't edit it--Hastur! (talk)  19:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

This place is starting to look more and more like a kindergarden. No wonder no one takes us serious. Why have rules when people can bend them the way they want to or act like a bunch of fuckin' hippies (EK's plea)...

And instead of improving the wiki, (creating pages, updating pages, ect...) we're just going to be bickering about old coop cases. Heck, why not unban TDM2, Logicnsuch, Mikey, Morris & Ken. In fact, let's get rid of all rules, SINCE NO ONE SEEMS TO FUCKING CARE AT ALL!!! Forums have organisation and no one (maybe 2 or 3 people) bitch about a decision for like, maybe 2 days. This place doesn't, and never will if this gets a pass.

This is what happens when your site has no organisation. Bunch of edgy populists (a 14 year old teenager and a Chris Crocker clone) pull their victim cards against those that can be easily swayed and BAM.

Fucking hell... Thunderclapper (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, "Let's begin the healing"? The fuck is this, Scientology? Thunderclapper (talk) 20:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't appreciate Ze hijacking this and reverting attention back around Raven. Also, if it'll placate some folks, I won't agitate for tech back yet. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This Raven issue was posted on the page first, your section just got in the way before it was concluded and got sandwiched inbetween, if it had been posted later this wouldn't have happened ofc. 22:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Move to close
Ze has already unblocked GR. She did it yesterday. I don't particularly mind that. What I do mind is that she did it without making an announcement here and people have continued to vote since then.

Anyway, clearly the consensus is that GR has served his time and should be unbanned. And that he shouldn't be a sysop at this present time. That's all fine by me. I think this is resolved. Spud (talk) 12:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've been busy for the last few days, so I missed the vote. I'm going to add one caveat though. Raven touches my personal talkpage and the Mods ban him. He never edits that page again, period, due to 20 violations after I explicitly told him not to harass me. No, I'm not fucking letting that go, he ignored someone explicitly saying they didn't want to be harassed. Unlike some people who can't read minds. And unlike those people, he never even thought of waiting for things to cool down and then apologizing. Not once. So, he stays off my personal talkpage, period. 13:21, 7 July 2020 (UTC).
 * What, exactly, has he posted to your talk page that you find so objectionable?--Hastur! (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Harassment alone should be enough for punishment if you want to document it. Bongolian (talk) 17:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Why do we need to document something that happened literally less than a month ago? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:56, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I can find myself in agreement on talkpage blocking GR and GC from interacting with each other. I do want to say that this goes both ways and is extended to the site as a whole. GR is not to intervene in discussions GC is having and GC is not to intervene in discussions with GR and they should stay away from each other's talkpages. I get GCs perspective, but one also has to acknowledge that GC also not been excellent in de-escalating, so an interaction seens like the most sensible thing to me. Exemptions can be applied to the coop/saloon (basically non-mainspace discussion), since that'd be more difficult to enforce than it's worth (and seems excessive to me).  19:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Would this affect their ability to vote in edit war resolutions(like keeping or deleting a disputed section) on changes proposed by the other one?-Flandres (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would argue that given how what I just said applies to all mainspace discussions that yes, this would also affect their ability to vote in those edit disputes, leaning on the assumption that this is between one editor and GC/GR. If there's an edit dispute between GC and GR specifically, then I would take the stance of first leaving the page as it was before the disputes (so if GC makes an edit, it goes to the edit before GCs) and placing a rule that the discussion cannot be taken outside of the mainspace talkpage or the moderator noticeboard/chicken coop (so not to either's talkpage and to still allow escalations to be properly dealt with). 19:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for trusting me again. I hope we have a good time and enough time to heal from this process. I hope we can work together and Make America RationalWiki Great Again! ;) 14:34, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Having a record is always useful for official business. Some people, including me, want specifics. 18:58, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not a specific "post" but a pattern of needlessly aggressive behavior. And when I said, "Stay off my talkpage." and "Don't harass me." after he took an article dispute to my personal talkpage to attack me personally he violated those explicit requests 20 times. This was after he had accused me off harassment for trying to talk with EK/Ze. I think the contrast is pretty stark, and I think he should stay off my talkpage or get banned, don't you? Or, does RW still tolerate outright harassment, like back in 2008 or so? 20:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the only sensible solution is for and  to promise to stay off each other's talk pages. If either of them breaks that promise, then mod action will be required. They can try to avoid editing the same mainspace talk pages. But I wouldn't see it as a serious problem if they did edit the same one, provided that they weren't uncivil toward each other. And as for the idea that they can't vote in the same polls, that's ridiculous. Of course they can. Spud (talk) 03:57, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * yeah - can we just get this cleared now. Same with Oxy which should be cleared tomorrow and we can go back to having new scrabbles. AceModerator 05:43, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Bongolian (talk) 06:29, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Time to put this issue to rest
Have this vote be at least four days long so everyone can get their voices heard. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  04:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Demote Oxy with probation
With the understanding that Oxy needs to be careful lest she end up in the same hole but with no shovel. 17:21, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I voluntarily relinquished tech rights, only to get spat on vindictively in a coop case that didn't even involve me. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  04:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Christ man, you're acting like a spoiled teenager who has been sent to their room. If this fails are you just going to come up with more excuses and run more votes? AceModerator 06:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) I proposed it, and I still think it's a good idea. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2)  08:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3)  15:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) I think Oxy realises that if she ends up in sysoprevoke again then it will probably be a irreversible. --RWRW (talk) 22:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Too soon

 * 1) She hasn't demonstrated the necessary maturity--Hastur! (talk) 04:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) God why are we even doing this. What's wrong with you Oxy? You've been banging on like this for weeks now. Fucking hell. AceModerator 05:59, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't, and I wasn't even the one who brought it up, that was Ronin. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Ary (talk) 15:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC) (User doesn't have 75 edits).
 * 2) Much too soon. I really hope nobody brings this up again for the rest of the year. It's not doing any good to any user or the community as a whole. Spud (talk) 15:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) —cosmikdebris talk stalk 15:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) No! Scream!! (talk) 16:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) Not again. Give it a rest, Oxy. Bongolian (talk) 17:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) She has a long history of rights abuses and so far as I've seen is incapable of admitting she's wrong or apologizing. Nutty Roux (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 7) Sigh 22:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 8) Impressively bad idea. About as well judged as chucking a couple of handfuls of Lego in your walking boots before setting out on a nice long hike. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 01:28, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 9) Oxy losing her shit on Discord and hating on everyone including apparently me has changed my mind. 19:28, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 10) Immature behavior, off-wiki attacks on other sysops and users, blaming non-instant enforcal of the CS on sysops in an accusatory manner (rather than civilly raising it), and driveby LANCBs (joining, arguing, then leaving and rejoining to argue again) on the Discord have convinced me that Oxy is not ready for her mop back yet, even with additional stipulations applied. Maybe in like... 6 months? She's not ready for it this week, that's for sure.  19:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 11) She needs time and contemplation to think about the consequences of her actions. Adam Warlock (talk) 23:31, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Goat
Why is this still going on. Honestly I feel like this vote should chucked as null and void. We start sysoprevoke votes or vote on rights removal and that person just calls for another vote after deciding, based upon nothing, that the previous vote was invalid? What's to stop any users who loses a vote from just running another one when they don't like the outcome? AceModerator 06:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean really - this issue was already put to rest. If Oxy wanted show maturity she would accept the outcome and work herself into a position of trust rather than continuously complaining how unfair it all is. AceModerator 06:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Right? We never said putting her in sysoprevoke would be permanent.  She just needed to show good faith for a few months, that's all.  Instead she continues squabbling--Hastur! (talk)  06:18, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact that I was even nominated to be a board candidate should tell you you're a minority when it comes to thinking I don't show good faith, . — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * lmao srsly?--Hastur! (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * lmao @ the fact you think that proves something--Hastur! (talk) 16:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Twice actually. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  16:40, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Doesn't any user have the right to call votes as much as they want until explicitly forbidden from doing so by mob action? She can bring this up as much as she wants until cooped or something. It doesn't really matter that you and a couple friends feel annoyed with addressing it.-Flandres (talk) 06:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We already had a vote which for reasons unclear Oxy believes to be invalid. What's to stop her claiming this vote is invalid if she loses again? And just runs more and more votes until she gets her way? Where is the maturity? AceModerator 06:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have the right to do all sorts of ghastly things, that doesn't mean I ought to do them--Hastur! (talk) 06:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's a deal - if Oxy wins this I am going to insist we run another one because I don't like the outcome. You're cool with that? AceModerator 06:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And she has the right to raise the complaint whether it is true or not. She can keep doing votes until the mob explicitly stops her. It doesn't matter if it annoys you or if you think it is immature. You also have the right to do the same thing.-Flandres (talk) 06:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fucking absurd. Oxy is literally the only person who thinks this hasn't been out to rest already. AceModerator 06:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Roninmacbeth might disagree with you, considering that he brought this up(please actually read some of these threads before you comment on them). Again, it does not matter if you think this is absurd.-Flandres (talk) 06:40, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if it annoys you or if you think it is immature It absolutely does.  These decisions are based on the health of the wiki and the community.  That's why we put her in sysoprevoke in the first place.  And by attempting to undo the vote she's just perpetuating her behavior--Hastur! (talk)  06:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you seen me say that my opinion matters? I'm expressing my own disbelief at Oxy's inability to act like an adult rather seems to act like my 7 year old daughter when I take her chocolate away for being naughty (It's not fair daddy!). AceModerator 06:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hastur, that's what you think. If the community decides she should be given back her rights despite your whining about "immaturity" than tough luck for you. Ace, you were implying you had the right to stop her from bring up votes because you are apparently not capable of handling it. I was saying you can't do that just because you think it is "absurd" if her to call another vote.-Flandres (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I implied no such thing. All I said was my opinion is that this vote is null and void. I didn’t say there was anything I could personally do to stop. So, you know, try better to understand. AceModerator|
 * Okay, mister "oxy totally started this discussion." Also, if you can't handle people repeatedly bringing up a dispute why are you a moderator?-Flandres (talk) 06:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What the fuck are you talking about? So as a moderator I can’t express an opinion? 06:54, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * But you can't handle a dispute being brought up again when your job is to moderate disputes? You have a right to express your views, you did, that is nice, but it cast doubt on your competence so I will bring that up.-Flandres (talk) 06:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Again what the fuck are you talking about? As a User and a Moderator my opinion is that Oxy should remain in sysoprevoke. As voted on above. I also think voting on this again is absurd. What are you having trouble with? Which part is incompetent? AceModerator 07:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You are clearly the one having trouble-you just completely misread my point. I started a tangent that your stated view is not good for a mod. I could see how you might reply "stay on topic, that's irrelevant" but I can't see how you could miss the point entirely...but if you really just are not capable of understanding, it is that if you cannot handle repeatably discussing disputes than as a mod who MUST discuss disputes that makes you worse off. It is your job to deal with this, not bitch that you have to.-Flandres (talk) 07:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

You’ve lost me totally. Sorry man but I’ve stated my opinion which for some reason you think It is wrong of me to hold that opinion. There’s nothing here to moderate at the moment. AceModerator 07:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry for losing you-I should have known better, hmhmhm...even excluding my little tangent about your competence,you still have not addressed the core point. She has a right to call this vote as much as she wants again and again until she is forced to cease, and that this matter(her user rights) clearly is not settled. Hell, she didn't even start this current discussion.Flandres (talk) 07:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I did none nor said nothing akin to anything you just wrote. AceModerator 07:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You did-for starters you said that Oxy is the only person who does not think this is settled.-Flandres (talk) 07:20, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So you are going to split hairs with me now? OK - it appears as of now, Oxy and 2 others do not think this has been settled. Said number could grow over time and I make no forecast on how many people believe this to still be an issue. How’s that? Ok with you? AceModerator 07:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, I personally think more people than the ones who already voted do not think this is settled, otherwise they would not have commented. But yes, I appreciate your ability to correct yourself and agree with the basics of what you said.-Flandres (talk) 07:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You are right that Oxyaena can ask for votes until we have a vote that forces her to stop. No harm in voting I guess. But wait for the election to complain about the moderators please. That really is out of order.Ariel31459 (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is amusingly adorable that you actually think people can only complain about elected officials during elections.-Flandres (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's the spirit. Amuse yourself. It's the least you can do.Ariel31459 (talk) 21:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I know I proposed a few additional stipulations in the discussion leading up to the vote, but I'll be honest: I haven't quite made up my mind yet. I'll lay my thoughts out as they are now, and I'm open to an argument from anyone to vote in a certain direction. On one hand, I'm a firm believer here in giving someone enough rope to hang themselves with. In this case, the rules as proposed by Ronin provide Oxy with her sysop powers back, but with the condition that if she fucks up, they're removed and she won't get a second round of this. In essence, she has her sysop power back, but with the regulation that if it's gone, it's gone for good. Giving her basically the rope and leaving it up to her to choose if she screws it up. On the other, I can't help but acknowledge that Oxy has repeatedly, both on and off the wiki asked for her sysop powers back to several sysops and moderators. We don't have formal rules against doing this, but there is a certain part of me that feels that by allowing even an inch, we're letting her essentially game the system by just sheer willpower. I'll try to make up my mind before the vote is over, but I'm open to feedback on this, since I'm rather unsure on what to do. On one hand, the former is firmly rehabilitating her bad behavior and if she screws up, she's out (and if she doesn't, the bad behavior ought to disappear). On the other, the latter makes it clear that our rules aren't to be gamed on. So if someone can give me a convincing argument to vote for or against this, it'd be very welcome. 18:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I mostly based my vote on what would be referred to as the rope on Wikipedia, along with feeling the last vote was not open long enough. I would just like to see a better conducted vote and I already think we got that here, so I would say whatever the result is, it will be much more legitimate and secure from challenges down the road.-Flandres (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I voted yes on the assumption that if Oxy abuses sysop tools again, the next promotion will be permanent. I’m too flawed of a person to not believe in second chances, but even I have my limits. 20:39, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh boy, I sure do love when I somehow manage to edit conflict myself. 20:40, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean, the fact that I lost tech, ninja, and sysop all in one week should signal to you that I`m probably not gonna do what I did before. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy has demonstrated to me, through insults directed at me and everyone on the wiki, that she won’t even try to improve her behavior. I believe in giving people many second chances, but I can’t in good conscience do that for someone who refuses to change or even acknowledge fault. Oxy needs consequences, and hopefully that will inspire some introspection. 20:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And honestly, I can’t imagine being convinced to vote for removing sysoprevoke ever again. 20:31, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, I am starting to regret my vote too,(bear in mind I can only confirm what you said to a certain degree, not being on discord myself)but it does seem if if some users here are treating her in a very toxic manner themselves, this still goes beyond that(not sure if I should change it though).-Flandres (talk) 20:34, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That’s up to you since the outcome is settled. I just hit the end of my patience for Oxy’s behavior. 20:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm mostly with Duce here. I believe strongly in second chances, but for Oxy it's not been long enough. Nor will it be, as long as she keeps bringing this shit up every few days. I know it was RoninMacbeath and not Oxy who started the discussion this time (and RoninMacbeath seems like one of the nicest people on this site), but Oxy put it to a vote way too early. And while I initially leaned towards giving Oxy another chance, her subsequent behavior has convinced me that it's not time for that yet. If she lets things lie for minimum of 6 months, demonstrating in the meantime that she is able to contribute productively as well as not picking any further fights, I'd be willing to vote to give her that one absolutely last chance to wield the mop responsibly. But until then, no.Coigreach (talk) 21:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Jesus Christ
now im being insinuated to be a paranoid conspiracy theorist this is the kind of user base you people attract, and you're okay with that shit? no matter how many times i point out the charges against me were overblown, i point out the hypocrisy of those who shriek loudest against me, no matter how many times other people point out the same, no matter how many times i bring up my actual record, i still get hate, i still get smeared, and i still get portrayed as some kind of "hysterical banshee" i was a sysop for over five years you fuckers have only had a problem with me for the past nine months and it's always the same people.

as for ace being a "sensible adult," he's not, he's a drunken idiot who shouldn't be allowed any power at all, to quote coigreach:

Now this gets slightly beyond the Board territory and more to why I think Ace should never have been made a mod (again), but whatever. Recently there has been a discussion about adjusting the community standards to define tech rights in comparison to Mod rights. This arose from Oxyaenas abuse of tech rights sure, but the discussion was also raised by Ace. As far as I can see, Ace is the one and only person in RationalWikis history who has, in his capacity as a mod, abused his powers to such (glorious) extent that a tech intervention was absolutely necessary. I do understand that Mods and Board members have different responsibilities. And I would vote (if I was eligible to vote) certain people to the board (because of their general good will), who I wouldn't vote for a mod (because of their temperament). But regarding your argument that Ace is a "grown adult", he is very much not. He has proven again and again that he's a drunken idiot whose unable to control himself after several drinks. I sympathize, I'm unable to do that either. But then again, I wouldn't consider myself a mod material, much less a board one. And I certainly wouldn't respect anyone who thought I was. And when it comes to you yourself Nutty, you've demonstrated that you're going to side with Ace and against anyone who acts against him no matter what. Hell, after that 10.20.2012 incident, you voted to strip Tyrannis of his tech rights because he had dared to interfere with Aces rampage.Coigreach (talk) 21:16, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I actually tried getting out of sysoprevoke, only to get blown off. He has the gall to claim I "lack good faith," what kind of people do you think you are? Try looking in the fucking mirror for once. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Here you go for where I demonstrated how the charges against me were bullshit in the first place. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  22:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As for the "ban evasion" shit, you realize that behavioral patterns exist, right? Oh, IP lookups do too. Most of my blocks for ban evasion weren't bullshit, you all conveniently forget I was constantly being harassed. Whenever something went wrong that little fuck would be there to egg me on. Ace told me straight to my face that it was okay for serial harassers to be on this website, and that if I didn't like that I could go somewhere else. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  22:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What Fun! Scream!! (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Bowl_of_Popcorn_(Unsplash).jpg
 * This slow-moving disaster flick might go better with some popcorn. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 22:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Somebody doesn't seem able to defend themselves without resorting to ad hominem attacks. Bongolian (talk) 22:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxyaena, if you used any method to look up users’ IP addresses, I’m going to find out and move that you be permanently banned. It would be best for you to admit you actually had no basis for many of those bans than to contend you had secret information the community has consistently decided nobody should have for well over a decade. Be very careful with what you say. And as for “demonstrating” anything on that page, it definitely wasn’t that you haven’t been a serial rights abuser. Nutty Roux (talk) 00:07, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What the fuck do I have to do with anything here Oxy? Why did you bring me up for no apparent reason? AceModerator 00:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So a LANCB is imminent, now, right?--Hastur! (talk) 00:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It shold be noted to anyone that isn't on RW Discord that Oxy is having a shit fit and talking about how much she fucking hates everyone. For some reason she started targeting me even though I actually haven't done anything to cause it and is calling everyone fuckers that she hates. Again, this speaks to her lack of maturity. AceModerator 00:45, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "fuck every single one of you people"


 * "you're all fucking liars and scumbags"


 * "every single one of you"


 * Classic Oxyaena--Hastur! (talk) 00:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Remind me how long you were in sysoprevoke for and why everyone hated you? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  13:07, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And why is shit that took place fucking years ago concerning me as a mod being brought up now? What does what happened years ago have to do with this case? AceModerator 00:56, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It does amaze that for someone who hates us so much she keeps coming back. 02:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)Bongolian (talk)
 * To be honest, even I don't see how that rant of mine from last night should be copypasted here. RWRW even sensibly collapsed it from board nominations page. Save it for the anti-endorsement if necessary Oxy, it's not doing you any favours here.Coigreach (talk) 03:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm struggling to see how your view of me is relevant here and why Oxy thinks it was appropriate to copypaste it. It's again another reason I feel Oxy lacks maturity. AceModerator 03:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hell, the only thing in that tirade of mine that's relevant here (insofar as restoration of Oxys user rights is concerned) is the fact that I accused her of abusing her powers. Everything else is rambling attacks against you and Nutty. Also, she kind of Hanlon's razored my message anyway, by copy pasting the bare text and thus removing the link to your 8 year old rampage.
 * And sorry btw for all that way belated hostility last night. Your abrasive behavior and habit of going beyond the call of duty in antagonizing Oxy (and some others) rubs me the wrong way. But that was still uncalled for. As I mentioned, I get bitchy when drunk too.Coigreach (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Here you go. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:29, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy, what relevance is this to you? Focus on what’s at hand - YOU, not me. AceModerator 19:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Mod note
Oxy has stated that this vote should go on for at least four days but I think four days is plenty so unless another mod wants to drop in (or anyone has a query or a reason for determining a different length) it'll be set at four days as of when Oxy made the first edit which started this - 04:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC) so this vote ends at 04:24, 10 July 2020 (UTC). Before anyone kicks up a fuss this is a mod duty but I (and I assume the other mods) am open to hearing reasonable suggestions. AceModerator 01:56, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Scream!! (talk) 02:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am tired. 02:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Me too my man, me too. AceModerator 02:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is "Fun:List of people who are tired", but where is the list for "I'm totally wired."? Bongolian (talk) 02:56, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I fully support the idea of setting a time limit of exactly four days to the minute. Spud (talk) 05:56, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright - not long until this closes then we can archive this whole clusterfuck of a page. AceModerator 01:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

A quick question
Up until Ace came along and started talking shit about me, I wasn't considered a big problem amongst the community, in fact I was well-liked. I was friendly to the old guard, and was always friendly and welcoming to new faces, I was quick to give people sysop, hell, I even tried getting Brx out of sysoprevoke (and Mona, but I stopped when I was told no). Like, the people shit talking me here were fine with me six months ago, and it's really only due to the influx of old guards who hated me that people started viewing what I was doing as a problem, when I used to get complemented for it before then.

I don't think it's a matter of whether or not I need my tools, it's a matter of whether or not I've been treated fairly, and I believe I have a good case to say no I have not. In terms of zealous blocking and rollbacks, I`m never in first place, except for Morris bans. (Fawcett was Morris btw, only Morris would've remembered when he compared me to a school shooter, other people, including myself, forgot about it.) Like, no one's railing against GC, despite GC being a far more zealous blocker and page protector than I am.

I've already agreed to the terms of probation, like, if I fail to uphold them, I'll be in permanent sysoprevoke. I know a lot of you don't care, hell, a lot of you dislike me, and jeer about me behind my back, and the constant toxicity I get even when I try to mend things, like, it really hurts, you people ignore everything I say, and then put words into my mouth I did not say.

I`m fairly certain I'll get met with more boos and jeers, but this shit is really toxic, like, I was one of the most aggressive pursuers of vandalism and spam on the wiki, and I did a lot of maintenance work and shit. I don't feel welcome here anymore, you people tell me to accept fault, but don't realize it's a two way street. Why is it that before the old gu﻿ard came, no one had a problem with me, and then after they came, they did? — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  14:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Oxy has a right to post this if she wants as part of her case, Scream!!. Please stop it. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:06, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Come on Ronin, there's nothing in this whinge that she hasn't said a hundred (exaggeration for effect) times already and it doesn't mean a thing. Scream!! (talk) 15:16, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Things that no one has adequately responded to, they just keep ignoring it. How do they "not mean a thing" btw, that's pretty shitty of you to say that. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  15:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Regardless of whether she has repeated it, it was civil and well-ordered, and well within her rights to post, and I'm not sure where this lands inside your prerogative as a moderator. Is this especially disruptive? Is it especially hostile? No, it isn't. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If she'd just EFFIN shut up and take what comes, I'm sure we would all forget about the whole thing sooner. I'd forgotten I was a Moderator, thanks for reminding me. Scream!! (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not your right to dictate if a person should just sit down and shut up. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:29, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * True. Am I not naughty? - I might just as well block Oxy on suspicion of being Morris - mightn't I? Scream!! (talk) 15:37, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Scream, cut the whataboutism. Perhaps you should address the point-if you can. Is that beyond your capabilities?-Flandres (talk) 15:45, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Point? what point? I see no point. There is no point as far as I can see. I also see no 'whataboutism' which seems to be a bit of a buzzword lately. Scream!! (talk) 15:52, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Attempted to distract from the subject at hand by bringing up Morris, I'm sorry you cant see it. And as for the point...please read the original post before talking in the thread. This is basic stuff, Scream,hmhmhm....-Flandres (talk) 15:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And the point that you are stepping outside the bounds of good-faith moderation by collapsing a section which the section author had every right to post. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh shut up you bore me almost as much as OXY. Her whing~ing has been answered a hundred times (exaggeration for effect) already. The record is cracked. Scream!! (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Where has she posted this before? Please provide a citation. Also, any rebuttal for RoninMacbeth?-Flandres (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry sunshine but I am not obliged to provide anything to you or Ronin that they cannot find by looking through several pages on the wiki. Done. Scream!! (talk) 16:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I get you can't actually provide citations and I will those be gracious to you and consider that argument settled. Still want to talk about collapsing this post when she had a right to at least make it?-Flandres (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No one's ever addressed any of my points, including the fact that I relinquished tech as a sign of good faith. Scream is talking out of his ass here. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  17:08, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you just knock it off with this already? I've repeatedly demonstrated that you're a serial rights abuser as sysop and you're the one who has yet to even respond on the merits. Crowing about not being as bad as GC or Cosmikdebris is pathetic. You're the 3 most aggressive banners in the history of this site, and by a huge margin. The reason you popped onto my radar was because you banned me for being Morris. This is after you injected yourself into a discussion with GC over his abusive behavior and claimed an account that was being used at the time by an older editor and at least 2 former RWF board members was also Morris. In short, you're poison, and you're the reason people think you're poison, not some "old guard" editors who are sick of your lies and deflection. And are you going to say anything more about your now repeated claim that you've got access to IP information on users? Nutty Roux (talk) 20:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Speaking of good faith, apparently you're outright lying to people about trying to reach out to me. You'd rather lie to someone's face than reach out to someone you've been on good terms with for months before. That is deeply offensive to me. 17:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And now you’re gonna be passive aggressive with me over one changed vote on a relatively minor issue. You’re going to try to manipulate someone else into talking to me on your behalf and you’re also going to cut me off. I’m pissed now. 17:42, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It was my fuckup. My fault. Don't blame Oxy for this. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Duce, I've been trying to reach you, but I don't know your account numbers and I don't share any servers. I was angry yesterday, and my meds were stolen four days before. I`m sorry, I was not in the right state of mind. I shouldn't have tried to cut you off, that was a dick move. This shit has been stressful for everyone, I now see why we need to move on. I shouldn't have brought it up, the past is the past, leave it be. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena  <font color="Red">Harass  17:58, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah I now see that it was a misunderstanding, albeit one that I still feel justified in being angry about before I knew what was going on. 18:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No one's ever addressed any of my points, including the fact that I relinquished tech as a sign of good faith Okay, here goes, then.


 * Insofar as giving up tech rights, that was the right move to avoid drama. Trying to prematurely regain your sysop rights, on the other hand, is a move in the opposite direction.
 * I haven't been in sysoprevoke since 2015, and I don't see why it's worth bringing that up
 * Single-handedly blaming Ace for your not being "well-liked" anymore is a bit curious. I don't recall seeing him putting that much effort into badmouthing you, just maybe questioning your judgement on some decisions you've made using sysop/tech rights.  If the community turned on you as a result, it would indicate that he was right or, just as likely, that your foul reaction to criticism disgusted everyone.
 * influx of old guards who hated That's maybe three people at the most and hate is a strong word. I don't think anybody "hates" you
 * Like, no one's railing against GC, despite GC being a far more zealous blocker and page protector than I am One thing at a time
 * it's a matter of whether or not I've been treated fairly What is fair, here? We cast a vote.  It may even have gone your way had you not had a meltdown
 * As for agreeing to the terms of probation, it seems that most users felt it was too soon for probation. And that given in to your haranguing wouldn't set a good precedent
 * We appreciate work on the wiki. But work on the wiki doesn't excuse misbehavior
 * If you demonstrate consistent emotional maturity for a long enough period, you may get your rights back. But you have to bear in mind that your attachment to your user rights is already seen as a sign of immaturity.  Accepting your situation will go a long way towards improving things--Hastur! (talk)  18:06, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You yourself have demonstrated why she should have her mop back, Hastur, when you decided to give her a little "time out" break a few days ago. If you and Oxy get into an edit conflict again, who's to say that you won't decide to give her another 2 or 3 "time outs" until she caves? This is why almost everyone here is a sysop, to stop higher ranking editors from bullying the small fry. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So it’s my fault. Oxy, I didn’t just show up and start shit talking you. The first interaction we had was me writing a lengthy mod note about you abusing your block rights. Then you completely lost your shit about it. AceModerator 18:14, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A five minute block, bruh. Don't read to much into it--Hastur! (talk)  18:20, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A five minute block, sure. But the very act itself is an indication. Tell me, why did you do it? If it was truly just nothing significant, then it should be relatively easy to explain, shouldn't it? I'm not you, I don't know your rationale, and I want to try and know your perspective. So why did you do it? RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:38, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Oxy, people have been taking fault with your behavior for about as long as I've been here, it's not a recent thing, even if it started with just Ace. It's a matter of conduct. Yeah, GC has a far higher scale of page reverts and infinite blocks (which I'll say is an issue that should be tackled at some point, but this isn't about GC), but GC generally responds far more amicable and accepting when someone calls out his behavior and you can have a discussion with him about his behavior. Your response when you're confronted or when you want to confront someone in person is always very impulsive, dishing out extremely harsh and when push comes to shove you tend to... well, wither out unless someone provides backup for you or proceeds to make the argument for you. And that's when it's involving a registered sysop who might actually cause trouble for you. When it's BON or a new account, you tend to instead threaten/enact blocks or revert out their changes.

That's also why you're losing this vote so overwhelmingly. If you'd just conducted yourself amicably, taken the fact that hey, the vote isn't really going in my favor, oh no, that's unfortunate, I'll try it later, you'd probably find that the results would swing more in your favor since those whose minds were split might have voted in favor of you. Instead, you've gone off the hinge the moment Ace acted like an abrasive dick, writing paragraphs about how good you were for the wiki, attacking sysops and mods off-site, which to at least me is pretty much exactly the type of behavior that ended up placing you into a speedy sysoprevoke to begin with (which if you might recall was you going on a personal crusade against GR).

And... the probational mop back would be on the assumption that those things wouldn't happen, but instead you've only proven why the sysoprevoke was needed. I highly suggest finding... something to do with this, because I feel the way you handle getting challenged on well, anything, is something that is a deeper seated issue. I'm not qualified to say what (nor do I want to play armchair psychologist), but I can at least say for sure that I don't think it's right for you to have your mop back right now. The other issues with your behavior (perma-blocking accounts and BONs of being Morris as a pre-emptive strike rather than following our usual policy for disruptive users -seriously this isn't difficult, most of the BONs and accounts you accuse are disruptive editors, even if they were Morris we have a policy for those until Morris uncovers himself as being Morris- jumps to mind) all more or less come from that problem. 18:18, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  18:29, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It didn't even start with Ace. From what I've been able to find (by wasting way too much of my afternoon going through coop and talk page archives...I hate everyone for it already), Ace first took issue with Oxys behavior in mid October 2019. Months before that LGM had expressed concern over her use of powers, as well as dragging discord drama here (which she has done again just this week...lovely). And LGM, Duce and even RoninMacbeath had taken issue with her personal attacks. She apologized that time, but it's not like she stopped the personal attacks, even if none have gone that far since (from what I've been able to find at least). Coigreach (talk) 18:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am human, and I generally try to make amends when I've done something wrong. I hadn't dragged discord drama here for almost a year until now, and this isn't really discord drama, it's wiki drama that's gone over to discord. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:25, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, about that one incident "you should've been aborted," that was said to Morris, who was actively targeting and harassing me at the time. Context matters. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, fair enough with the discord stuff. Since I don't do discord nor would ever want to, I didn't know better. Apologies for that.Coigreach (talk)
 * Morris or not telling someone they should have been aborted is low and fucking revolting. AceModerator 19:51, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

The reason I react so negatively to conflict and criticism is because of my PTSD, I never react well to conflict and shit. I grew up in a conflict-ridden household, like, there's a person behind the screen name, and I think we should all realize that, we too often don't realize those we interact with online have lives outside their online life. This isn't an excuse, I know, but I hope it explains at least some of my behavior. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  19:46, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You need to stop blaming others and take a little personal responsibility for your behaviour. AceModerator 19:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also Oxy, I do realize that Morris was one of the worst scumbags this wiki has ever banned. And I sympathize with having to suffer through his harassment. But going through your block logs, you seemed to banhammer pretty much anything that moved for being Morris. And it seemed to be that heavy handedness that, again...months later, raised Aces ire. And yes, he tends to be more resilient adversary than most folks here, but you were actually the first to bring the matter to coop and try to get him stripped of his modship. Heck you cooped him twice in 3 days over it. I have issues with Aces abrasive nature, but he didn't come out of nowhere. Also his behavior has zero bearing to whether you should get your mop back or not. Sorry.Coigreach (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If a user isn't in a state of mind to respond to something but will inevitably create more conflict and tension whatever it is they type, then that user should log out of that website and return when they are ready to type out and post something less problematic. If a user is hyper-reactive, then the last thing they should do is engage. Logging out, or even better installing software that locks you out of that website for a day or two is the best solution if that user is incapable of resisting the urge to just log in and say whatever emotive text comes to their head first. I use website blocking software when I have deadlines. It can easily be customised to your own needs. While other users can have sympathy and a degree of patience with a users who don't deal well with conflict, the burden shouldn't be left to them to endlessly tolerate it, but it should rest with the problematic user, who should work on this problem and find ways, whatever it takes, to avoid long term episodes of conflict. The French Canadians have a phrase "twist your tongue three times before you speak". It is extremely good advice. If a user suffers from anxiety and participating in a website during certain times heightens that anxiety, then that user should definitely sign out. They may suffer a disconnect from online peers which can be difficult, however there are lots of websites and discord channels where one can connect with peers and benefit from the social factor without the anxiety-increasing factor. Shabi  DOO  20:14, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And again, relating to the various things about your personal background Oxy (I think so far I've picked that you are 1. African American, 2. Part Native American (1/4 or 1/8...I forget) 3. On autism spectrum (Neurodiverse...I had to google that one) and 4. Have PTSD). That's a lot of Special pleading as to why we should treat you with silk gloves. I was beaten by my dad as a kid. I also fall in the autism spectrum (Aspergers). I don't ask any special treatment here because of it.Coigreach (talk) 20:18, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am sympathetic to that, do understand that. I am not trying to devalue your experience here or anything, growing up with fighting parents or abusive parents really isn't something I'd wish on anyone (I have several friends both IRL and online who went through either of those), but do also realize that I am looking at this from the perspective of how your actions are well, affecting the wiki. And as much as I can feel sympathy for your experience, your actions as a sysop by being aggressive in blocking vandals, reverting and using sysop tools to pursue a personal vendetta against GR up until you lost your sysop over one of those incidents. Combine that with you essentially expressing the same impulsive behavior that happened a few times before during this vote, just without the sysop powers, meaning that it's just ineffective flailing and I hope you can understand why I don't think you should have your sysop role back. I just encourage you to find some sort of way to handle this for yourself, but the past few days really haven't convinced me that you found a way to handle it. I would suggest talking to a psych, but I realize that might be difficult, given you're in the US. 21:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have bi-polar disorder and suffer panic attacks combined with extreme depression. I’m also a border line alcoholic but I take responsibility for it. I’m likely not going to be voted as a mod again due to my nature but I will take responsibility for losing my mod powers as my own fault. I’m not going to freak out and scream at everyone. Think about it. AceModerator 21:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I said "this isn't an excuse." — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:24, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that Oxyaena has also said she is transgender. I think that many users on this wiki desire to be non-confrontational with her on that account.Ariel31459 (talk) 21:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, please everyone don't intentionally misgender Oxy. That's so dickish and it makes everything so much worse for everyone. 21:37, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Saying this is no excuse is not the same as taking responsibility. AceModerator 21:40, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I fucked up, okay. I bear sole responsibility for this. — <font color="Purple">Oxyaena <font color="Red">Harass  21:48, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I drink way too much too. And what The Crow said goes for me as well. I don't hate you Oxy, not by any means. I seem to agree with you on many specific topics and over all I wish you all the best. I just don't think that you should have the user rights which enable you to act on your impulses right now. There's enough people here to deal with trolls and spammers for now. Coigreach (talk) 21:58, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Verdicts
OK - so the verdicts are in. Both GR and Oxy remain in sysoprevoke for the time being. Now this garbage can be archived. AceModerator 04:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)