Talk:Maajid Nawaz/Archive1

Just gonna butt in here...
...in hopes of oiling the gears, so to speak. @Levi, the topics you're adding seem pretty reasonable. IMO, though, your additions sort of read like a hit piece, they're long-winded, and the organization is haphazard. There are criticisms embedded in the article prior to your addition, so adding a "Criticisms" section maybe isn't ideal, and "Questionable X", "Questionable Y" subsections would be easier to follow if X and Y were narrower than "methods", "positions", etc; those are very broad terms. I think it'd make more sense to organize by specific topic, i.e., Quilliam Foundation, Israel, etc. For now I'm with RBP and ClothCoat in that your additions in their current state aren't ready to go in the article, but I for one think they would be very worthwhile if you repackage them. Hope to hear your thoughts. B) talk 22:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly.
 * There are plenty of valid criticisms against Majid Nawaz, some of which we have yet to bring up — warranting expansion (read: improvement) of our article on him.


 * However, making a chicken out of a feather by clasping for every straw on Twitter and presenting it all in a way so laden with drama hype as to make the whole exposé stick out completely from the prior text is neither fitting for a mainspace article, nor helpful to achieving the prior mentioned expansion and improvement of the article.


 * Irrelevant to the topic of Majid Nawaz is the topic of editor conduct on this site. With myself, ClothCoat and Bshaw, we are now three editors against one (Levi). This constitutes a clear consensus, and we're all asking you (Levi) to stand down from edit warring. Levi, please do not re-insert your edits before talkpaging, discussing your proposed changes and gaining mob support in your edits to the Majid Nawaz article. Thank you. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * @RBP, "your thoughts exactly"? Maybe try communicating those thoughts in words, rather than waiting for me to divine them by some metaphysical means. Re "editor conduct" and "edit warring", Bshaw only just entered the fray - and did so in order to get my attention, yet you include him/her (together with Clothcoat) among your 3 editors, which you referred to much, much earlier?


 * @Bshaw, I will take on board your recommendations and amend the article accordingly, but regarding the article reading like a hit piece, we have several articles, which are also promoted, which read like hit pieces. The article on Milo to name an example. The article on Sargon of Akkad to name another. The article on Andrew Schlafly to name a third. Or are you trying to tell me that articles are only allowed to read like hit pieces if the subjects of said articles are of a right-wing disposition? Moreover, I thought Rationalwiki wasn't meant to be biased:


 * I will now re-insert my edits. The edit wars go on. Levi Ackerman (talk) 11:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * As for my edits on the WIGO:world page, it seems to me that you - RBP & Weaseloid - are trying to apply a new rule retroactively. That's a no-no. I don't mind the introduction of a new rule, but I won't let it be applied retroactively just because an editor had his/her misinterpretation of the rules pointed out and his/her authority challenged. Levi Ackerman (talk) 11:55, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This is not the place to talk about this^. You should move it to the WIGO:world talk page. B) talk 15:40, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Dude, he included me in the "3 editors" because I stated explicitly: "For now I'm with RBP and ClothCoat in that your additions in their current state aren't ready to go in the article". I just checked the page's changelog, and ClothCoat had reverted you already when RBP did for the first time. That still makes 2 to 1. A more productive way to handle getting reverted would be to take it to the talkpage first, clear up disagreements, and then add your content to the article.
 * And I'm aware of the SPOV of course. Good snark is fine. But - attempt at constructive criticism incoming, don't take this the wrong way - be wary, for example, of lines like "In an astonishing display of self-centrism" and "In an amusing display of self-contradiction". Instead of addressing exactly why the person is self-centered or self-contradictory, they're really just a sort of snotty sounding ad hominem. Well-executed snark is one thing, but lines like those aren't it. B) talk 16:04, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Make that 4 editors, imploring Levi in unison to stop repeatedly violating the community guidelines and instead join us to participate in democratically finding our way forward. Instead, he cites our own rules back to us (as if we don't "get" that he's in charge now and that there's nothing we can do about it). You know, those very same rules which we actually work in reciprocal solidarity to uphold? And to top this all off — seriously — guess what? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:19, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * @Bshaw:

As opposed to lines like: Guess whose RW article that's from? Or:

From Glenn Beck's RW article.

Lastly:

I don't need to tell you where that's from, do I? Yet it is praised as some kind of pwnage.

What was that about snotty sounding ad hominem again? I don't want to accuse you (the collective you) of anything but...


 * @RBP, you seem to think recruiting more to your numbers is an argument against my edits. Please, oh please, kindly spell out for me how EXACTLY I am violating community guidelines. As you said, I cite your own rules back to you, or is that not allowed when said citations are used against you? The only person actually offering constructive criticism of my edits is Bshaw. I'm starting to think when you, RBP, said you didn't "give a shit" about Nawaz, you weren't being totally honest. I will re-do my edits now.Levi Ackerman (talk) 17:37, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * But nobody is even making the argument that "snark is forbidden", and everyone's been nothing but open to adding criticisms of Nawaz. The argument currently being made is more along the lines of "4 votes is more than 1 vote". But, of course, we're the ones acting crazy.
 * You heard it here first, folks — your calls for reciprocal calm mean nothing, and any votes cast in opposition to Levi literally count as supportive silence unless Levi is in a giving mood. See, if you don't agree that Levi suddenly gets to decide everything, you're trampling all over his equal right to decide for all. Sadly, his threats aren't empty either — he's gone full Untergang. [[File:Dictator.gif]] Reverend Black Percy (talk) 18:03, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Oookaaayy... If Levi and The Rev. could chill a bit and tone down the attempts at divining each others' nefarious motives a bit for a while? So, back to the original issue: Criticism of Nawaz, yes? So, it would appear to me that Nawaz can be criticised in a snarky way of: What do the you think? ScepticWombat (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) I agree that slapping various tweets up and then speculating what may they may mean is not a strong example of criticism. That said, the stuff about the "suck it up Muslims" does appear to be clear and straight forward enough to be used as a criticism of Nawaz's attitude and approach, though I'm not sure that the "offended by lack of offence"-stuff is indicative of Nawaz being self-centred. To me, it sounds more like a lame attempt at deflecting criticism for his deliberate shit stirring.
 * 2) The stuff about the video is written using a labyrinthine sentence structure that makes it less than obvious to me what the actual meaning is.
 * 3) Citing Tommy Robinson (via HuffPo) is not exactly using the most, ahem, trustworthy of sources. Simply adopting his version of events and copy/pasting from the HuffPo story is not good snark. Pointing out a rather strange and murky quid pro quo relationship and subsequent falling out between Robinson and Quilliam would probably work better.
 * 4) The contents of the Israel tweets look rather "meh" to me. They contain no really silly apologetics but at most a rather mild/lame version of whataboutism (mild due to the fact that Israel is clearly less repressive than the other regimes he mentioned, lame because it's, well, whataboutism). It could easily be cut and replaced with better examples of Israel apologetics based on the Daily Beast article mentioned subsequently.
 * 5) What exactly is the point of the "should not label Israel as a Jewish state"-bit from the Grauniad?
 * 6) I don't see the point of the final bit about Nawaz insisting that he's a moderate Muslim, yet defending Ayaan Hirsi Ali who think such Muslims don't exist. How exactly is that a mark against Nawaz?
 * Being the founder of Quilliam which has engaged in some kind of quid pro quo with Robinson though they seem to have fallen out.
 * Being an Israel apologist of the whataboutism variant.
 * Possibly being a bit too prone to adopt "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-logic (Robinson and possibly Ayaan Hirsi Ali), though in the case of Robinson it should be clear when the criticism is of Nawaz and when it's of Quilliam.
 * Thank you for making a level-headed and constructive contribution to this discussion. Just allow me to point out that I haven't actually "attempted to divine [Levi's] intentions" (and certainly not impugned them as "nefarious", as I am a firm believer in Hanlon's razor) — he overtly expressed doubt about my honesty in his very last post, though. Regardless, the one thing that I think we need not tone down is the firm conclusion that: 4 votes "Nay" to 1 vote "Yay" means that the "Nay" side wins. It's unacceptable to blindy keep edit warring against such a consensus. The importance of respecting votes from the mob has direct relevance to all articles on RW, and thus far outweighs any discussion on Majid Nawaz in importance (though, such a discussion is also fruiful, and will have to be held). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:27, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Rev., I wasn't implying a balance fallacy theme here (Levi's constant cries of edit war are getting rather tiresome, but at least we're now engaging on this here talk page), merely trying to get things back on track with a discussion of contents, rather than behaviour. ScepticWombat (talk) 19:33, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I know buddy, and I genuinely meant that your above contribution is a constructive first step in a discussion meant to take us out of a one-man revert spree. That being said, however — an edit war has to have two equally numerous sets of editors (be they 1v1) reverting each other repeatedly. Since the actual numbers are even in that case, the consensus is yet undetermined. In contrast to such a scenario however, it is not an edit war (per se) — but rather sheer troublemaking — for one lone user to engage in serial reverts against four other editors. This is because a consensus already exists in that case, and the impetus is thus on this lone user to peacefully take to the talkpage, discuss the issue, and maybe end up changing the consensus. But to just revert four other editors ad nauseum is unequivocally misguided and heavily frowned upon, and for all the right reasons. We don't go berzerk at RW; we work together and we respect the consensus even when we don't personally agree with it. This cannot be overstated, though it could in theory be understated (but it won't be on my watch). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My point was exactly that this isn't an edit war, and I was simply pointing out that Levi has been crying edit war from the start when Clothcoat reverted his edits. ScepticWombat (talk) 20:25, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree re ScepticWombat's comments & suggestions above. 20:43, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * @Skeptic Oh, right — so we're in agreement, then. Sorry if that wasn't entirely clear to me — I'm currently fighting a fever. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I hate to break up your circle-jerk, but a few things. Well, more than a few, so bear with me.


 * First, ScepticWombat:

This is not really an argument. This website - indeed - the real world functions like that. People say things, regardless of where they have said it - on a podium, on Twitter, in an article, and we infer their meaning. This website is full of examples of inferences. So, as aforementioned, not an argument. Or rather, a weak argument. Take Trump for example, his page expressly refers to him as a racist? Why? Because of things he has said. We infer that he is a racist from things he has said. Ergo, we speculate what he means and use it as criticism. For example, "moratorium on Muslim immigrations" = "doesn't like Muslims/Islam" = "criticism as a bit racist or Islamophobic".

Which isn't the most trustworthy of sources, Huffpo or Tommy? If the latter, I could just rework that into criticism of Nawaz, and I will do. He should have known better than to "join forces" with an untrustworthy person, especially one so reviled by the moderate, "mainstream", Muslims.

Agreed.

It's an example of how is position changes based on who is funding him and/or his organisation. He wouldn't dare say that now. Though I am just speculating. It's a piece of information. Take it or leave it.

You misread/misinterpreted the final bit. It's about his insistence that there is no such thing as "Islamophobia", when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, exist. Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:03, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

My cries of "edit wars" (moved from ScepticWombat's talk page)
Moved here from my talk page ScepticWombat (talk) 09:55, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

When did I complain about or cry "edit war"? It is RBP who is complaining about edit warring and asking me to refrain from it. So, how it is you came to the conclusion that I am crying "edit wars" leaves me rather bemused. Perhaps you could quote some examples of me crying about edit wars, just for my clarity? Thanks in advance. That is all Levi Ackerman (talk) 09:46, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've already provided the example above, but apparently I need to spell it out. Check the fossil record, specifically what you wrote when you undid Clothcoat's reversion of your edits: "So this is what an edit war looks like. Fine. Bring it.ClothCoat" That was, as I've already written before The Rev. got involved Is that clear enough for you? ScepticWombat (talk) 09:55, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * So, one mention of "edit war", on my part, counts, for you, as "cries of edit wars"? Lol. Okay. Ask yourself this: who has complained more about "edit wars", me or RBP?Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:02, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been complaining about your edit warring Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:38, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving the article and good SPOV
I've decided to split this off into a separate section for easy reference and reply instead of the earlier meandering thread. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

B)'s (Bshaw's) suggestions
suggestions for the very beginning of the first thread copy/pasted here by :

@Levi, the topics you're adding seem pretty reasonable. IMO, though, your additions sort of read like a hit piece, they're long-winded, and the organization is haphazard. There are criticisms embedded in the article prior to your addition, so adding a "Criticisms" section maybe isn't ideal, and "Questionable X", "Questionable Y" subsections would be easier to follow if X and Y were narrower than "methods", "positions", etc; those are very broad terms. I think it'd make more sense to organize by specific topic, i.e., Quilliam Foundation, Israel, etc. For now I'm with RBP and ClothCoat in that your additions in their current state aren't ready to go in the article, but I for one think they would be very worthwhile if you repackage them. Hope to hear your thoughts. B) talk 22:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

ScepticWombat's suggestions
My suggestions, copy/pasted and slightly edited from the earlier thread, regarding :

So, it would appear to me that Nawaz can be criticised in a snarky way of: What do the rest of you think? ScepticWombat (talk) 10:14, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) I agree with the earlier sentiment of that slapping various tweets up and then speculating what may they may mean is not a strong example of criticism. That said, the stuff about the "suck it up Muslims" does appear to be clear and straight forward enough to be used as a criticism of Nawaz's attitude and approach, though I'm not sure that the "offended by lack of offence"-stuff is indicative of Nawaz being self-centred. To me, it sounds more like a lame attempt at deflecting criticism for his deliberate shit stirring.
 * 2) The stuff about the video is written using a labyrinthine sentence structure that makes it less than obvious to me what the actual meaning is.
 * 3) Citing Tommy Robinson (via HuffPo) is not exactly using the most, ahem, trustworthy of sources. Simply adopting his version of events and copy/pasting from the HuffPo story is not good snark. Pointing out a rather strange and murky quid pro quo relationship and subsequent falling out between Robinson and Quilliam would probably work better.
 * 4) The contents of the Israel tweets look rather "meh" to me. They contain no really silly apologetics but at most a rather mild/lame version of whataboutism (mild due to the fact that Israel is clearly less repressive than the other regimes he mentioned, lame because it's, well, whataboutism). It could easily be cut and replaced with better examples of Israel apologetics based on the Daily Beast article mentioned subsequently.
 * 5) What exactly is the point of the "should not label Israel as a Jewish state"-bit from the Grauniad?
 * 6) I don't see the point of the final bit about Nawaz insisting that he's a moderate Muslim, yet defending Ayaan Hirsi Ali who think such Muslims don't exist. How exactly is that a mark against Nawaz?
 * Being the founder of Quilliam which has engaged in some kind of quid pro quo with Robinson though they seem to have fallen out.
 * Being an Israel apologist of the whataboutism variant.
 * Possibly being a bit too prone to adopt "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"-logic (Robinson and possibly Ayaan Hirsi Ali), though in the case of Robinson it should be clear when the criticism is of Nawaz and when it's of Quilliam. This of course overlaps with the Quilliam/Robinson criticism.


 * I just addressed each of your criticisms in turn above. Here it is (again):


 * This is not really an argument. This website - indeed - the real world functions like that. People say things, regardless of where they have said it - on a podium, on Twitter, in an article, and we infer their meaning. This website is full of examples of inferences. So, as aforementioned, not an argument. Or rather, a weak argument. Take Trump for example, his page expressly refers to him as a racist? Why? Because of things he has said. We infer that he is a racist from things he has said. Ergo, we speculate what he means and use it as criticism. For example, "moratorium on Muslim immigrations" = "doesn't like Muslims/Islam" = "criticism as a bit racist or Islamophobic".


 * Which isn't the most trustworthy of sources, Huffpo or Tommy? If the latter, I could just rework that into criticism of Nawaz, and I will do. He should have known better than to "join forces" with an untrustworthy person, especially one so reviled by the moderate, "mainstream", Muslims.


 * Agreed.


 * It's an example of how is position changes based on who is funding him and/or his organisation. He wouldn't dare say that now. Though I am just speculating. It's a piece of information. Take it or leave it.


 * You misread/misinterpreted the final bit. It's about his insistence that there is no such thing as "Islamophobia", when people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, exist Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Levi, my point was not that you can never use tweets, but that you seem to be extrapolating far too much from far too short and ambivalent tweets. Trump, by contrast, tends to be quite blunt and unambiguous in his tweets.
 * If your criticism in point 5 is about Nawaz being a windbag whose views change based on who's funding him, find examples how he has changed his tune and use them.
 * HuffPo simply cites Robinson and then some responses from Quilliam, and I was referring to Robinson as a poor source. However, my three bullet points sum up my impressions of what Nawaz can be criticised for: It would appear that he's prone to whataboutism and using "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approaches (cozying up to the likes of Robinson and Ali simply because they share his outlook on Islamic fundies and ignoring their views on Muslims in general as well as their other unsavoury attitudes). It should nevertheless be clear when this criticism is based on statements from Nawaz himself and when it is a criticism of Quilliam which is not a one-man outfit. We may need to split off the criticism of Quilliam into a separate section to make this distinction clearer.
 * As I read your Nawaz quotes regarding Islamophobia, it seemed more to be about semantics than substance. He seems to object to using the term Islamophobia, preferring something like anti-Muslim bigotry, not denying that such bigotry exists. I myself have a good friend who doesn't like the "psychologisation", with its connotations of mental illness, of attaching "phobia" to all kinds of bigotry, but his objections are purely based on the specific term, not a denial of the underlying phenomenon it is used to designate. As I read your quotes of Nawaz, it seems that he's arguing along similar lines. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:47, 5 January 2017 (UTC)




 * This coming from the same person who chastised me for speculating what people may mean. You're just as self-contradicting as he is. I criticise Nawaz based on what he says and you accuse me of speculating. I criticise Nawaz for saying "there is no such thing as Islamophobia" and you defend him by speculating as to what he meant when he expressly said, "there is no such thing as Islamophobia". It's a "heads, I lose. Tails, you win" situation. Also, and this is a minor point, I only referenced one Nawaz quote regarding Islamophobia, namely the one where he denied its existence. I therefore don't know why you say you read my "Nawaz quotes regarding Islamophobia". Levi Ackerman (talk) 12:00, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Levi, are deliberately trying to wear out other editors' patience or are you simply missing my point? Allow me to repeat myself in bold for your convenience: As I read your quotes from Nawaz, he does not appear to be clearly denying that bigotry angainst Muslims exists, but rather to be objecting against referring to it using the term Islamophibia. I then explained, by using the analogy involving my friend, why that is not necessarily the same as denial of the underlying phenomena referred to by others who do use the term Islamophobia. Was that a more clear explanation of my objections and qualifications? ScepticWombat (talk) 14:10, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * With respect, you're not repeating yourself when you say, "As [you] read [my] quotes from Nawaz". You're saying something else entirely. Now, you could say what you initially wrote is not what you meant, and that's fine, but to act as if you're repeating yourself, is just silly. I would say you were being disingenuous, but I'll wait until I am sure. Here's the original quote from you at 10:47, 5 January 2017:

Here's you repeating yourself at 14:10, 5 January 2017:

Spot the difference? In the first quotebox, you are referring to a multiple statements by Nawaz regarding Islamophobia, which I have quoted. Of course, I only quoted one statement by Nawaz regarding Islamophobia. So, I was right to point out that your use of the word "quotes" is wrong. In the second quotebox, claiming to repeat yourself, you have said something entirely different from what you said in the first quotebox.

You've not repeated yourself at all. It is made all the sillier by the fact that you've sought to emphasise your point by emboldening your "repetition".Levi Ackerman (talk) 15:04, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Also, why are you telling me Nawaz doesn't deny bigotry against Muslims exists. I didn't claim that he did. Unless, of course, your position is that "Islamophobia" and "anti-Muslim bigotry" are one and the same. I'm starting to think you didn't actually read - properly! - my edits, you're just hopping on the bandwagon.Levi Ackerman (talk) 15:04, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Okay, what exactly is it you are trying to criticise Nawaz over, regarding Islamophobia, then? I was enquiring whether Nawaz is denying that the kind of hatred or bigotry against Muslims commonly referred to by the term "Islamophobia", exist, or whether he was objecting to using the term "Islamophobia" without, and this is important so please pay attention, denying that the actions and attitudes (i.e. the hatred of and bigotry against Muslims) that lead others to use the term "Islamophobia" are real.

This is now the third time I try to get this question answered, so I'll try to rephrase it in case I'm being less than perfectly transparent in my prose so far: If you don't think that bigotry against Muslims (which your chosen Nawaz quotes and your own explicit interpretations indicate that he thinks is real) and Islamophobia (a term which your Nawaz quotes indicate he objects to) are the same, then how is Islamophobia different from anti-Muslim bigotry and thus, by extension, what exactly is it that you criticise Nawaz for denying the existence of? The reason I ask is that your "gotcha" link to the Ayaan Hirsi Ali interview is about the whole "moderate Muslims don't exist"-BS, but perhaps you don't think that's anti-Muslim bigotry, being Islamophobia instead? If that's the case then where do you think the line should be drawn and, by extension, where is Nawaz wrong? ScepticWombat (talk) 20:29, 5 January 2017 (UTC)