Talk:Jesus/Archive1

Census
Is there any record for a census taking place outside of Rome (in the territories) at the time. I just read somewhere once that there isn't any. Also Wikipedia seems to come down on the side that the slaughter of th innocents was apocryphal, do we have a mention of this anywhere, as I am sure this is the current view amongst scholars. - User Please set to always render PNG. I have wasted alot of time to make this work. 03:17, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Crucifixion Survival
"Skeptics" should not believe this if they're actual skeptical. Crucifixion Survival is a ridiculous conspiracy theory of the worst sort. Dan Brown even thought it was too outlandish to be in 'Da Vinci Code.' Dan Brown! Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but this is supposed to NOT be the joke article right? The Crucifixion survival conspiracy is a completely unskeptical position on par with 9/11 conspiracies. -Morgan
 * I'm inclined to agree with you. If we start making up convoluted explanations for the resurrection, then why stop there?  We'd also have to explain away the virgin birth, water into wine, walking on water, curing the sick, & all the other miracles.  Better to just treat the whole thing with skepticism.  I'm guessing that parts of this article were written by somebody who was enthusiastic about the crucifiction survival scenario.  Anyway, I've reworded the offending section of it.   13:26, 28 January 2009 (EST)
 * Are you sure that you're not talking about crucifiction? Either way, didn't Josephus write about crucifixion survivors?  13:27, 28 January 2009 (EST)
 * One, who was pardoned and taken down. -- 13:38, 28 January 2009 (EST)

This is a wild conjecture and probably unworthy for a skeptic to hold, but not a conspiracy theory, since in no place does it make any claims about a conspiracy. 13:42, 28 January 2009 (EST)

It's not Fun:Jesus anymore?
Or is someone working for that? 05:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. This article started in the main space, pretty much as it is now.  Jesus Christ was the slightly more serious (ie, about the religious figure) article.  Then one day PC got a bug up her ass about calling Jesus "Christ", which means "Messiah", and went around the innertubes imposing her attitude.  She moved Jesus to fun, to make way for moving JC to Jesus.  Jesus got moved back to JC some time ago, I just hadn't noticed that this one was still stuck in fun - where she put it without any discussion.  Remember, "fun" isn't just where we put anything that is "funny" - it's where we put articles that are funny enough to save but don't belong in the mainspace, so they survive.  19:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So why do we need two mainspace articles on the same subject? Without one of them being defined as "fun", it really isn't clear what the distinction is.  Merge?   20:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the original idea wayyyyy back was for a serious article and a snarky one, but's got lost somewhere. Merge into one ruddy gurt article if you like. Totnesmartin 20:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, this one is so different in tone that it wouldn't merge well. (IMO). Everything was fine until PC went on a "purge the internet of the word Christ" binge.  Now things are just back where they were before that. The other article is about the "Christ", this one's about some middle eastern carpenter turned preacher.  23:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I am a firm believer in the idea that RW should be snarky on all articles where snarkiness is warranted. There is no point in making a "rational" article about someone who, if he even existed, isn't even historically notable.  Snarkiness is RationalWiki! --Eira omtg!  The Goat be praised. 03:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Stuff I removed...
"	In the recorded words of the Bible, Jesus never personally claimed to be God: indeed, many times he spoke words incompatible with it ("The Father is greater than I" - if He was his own Father and was God Incarnate, he would be as great as himself - "Some knowledge not even the angels in heaven know, but is reserved for the Father alone"; "He was asked: 'What is the most important commandment?' Jesus answered: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord is God and your Lord is One... the are no more important commandments than these.'", he prayed to God; many more). Needless to say, it's debatable whether the New Testament contains any actual dictation of the speech of Jesus, but it seems likely, if the Church wrote it, it would put words in Jesus' mouth claiming he was God, and words about the Holy Spirit, to try to make it accord with their doctrine (the same reason "Catholic Versions" of the Bible always translate Isaiah 7:14 as "virgin", even though the Hebrew is clearly "young women" or "adolescent girl", "almah", which is how all modern "honest" translations translate it). The only records in the New Testament that claim Jesus was God were written by Saul of Tarsus (St Paul to Roman Catholics), a rabid antinomianist (antinomianism: the abrogation of all law, mortal and divine: incidentally, some of the surviving Common Era Dead Sea Scrolls/Qumran Manuscripts speak of Paul as having been excommunicated from the early church), and John the Evangelist (a gnostic with some Judaeo-Christian influences), who wrote more than half of the New Testament canon of 27 books: this is why modern Christians practise Pauline "Christianity" and are not Messianic Jews. Among New Testament scholars, it's widely accepted that Jesus never claimed to be God, but this was attributed to him at first by Saul of Tarsus, and then later by the Church after it had Roman support, and the first ecumenical councils, which denounced (and put to the sword) various interpretations of Jesus' teaching that did not hold him to be God, such as that of the Monophysites, Nestor, Marcion, Arius, and (many) more, of which the latter - Arianism - held great sway when it was denounced: the Roman Emperor at the time it was outlawed by the Second Ecumenical Council - and the Emperor who reigned for almost a decade after the first one was killed for his religious views - were both Arians: respectively, Constantius II and Valens. "

This seems to add little to the article but a wall of text. But if I am wrong we can fix it easily. 03:39, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think some of the points above have some validity, even if they could be stated more clearly. Just regarding the first point - the Bible says Jesus saying lots of different things about himself at different points. At some places, he seems to be suggesting he is divine (without straight out saying it); at other places, he seems to be suggesting he is not. Of course, most Christians, believing Jesus to be divine, have their interpretations of those places where he seems to suggests he's not so that he isn't actually doing that; and likewise, the minority of Christians who don't believe in Jesus' divinity, they have their interpretations of those places where he seems to suggest he is so that he isn't actually doing that either. And this is the big problem with biblical interpretation, if you try hard enough you can make it mean lots of different things; and who can say whose interpretation is actually the right one? -- 03:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Sex Life
To me personally, this is badly conceived and currently very weasel. "arguments exist", but nothing to support the idea. "might have used prostitutes" - yeah, and i might have used drugs, but until you find *something* compelling somewhere, it's not really relevant. If our article is pure speculation - let's just say so, rather than the implication that this is something commonly discussed between scholars. And if it *is* discussed, let's find some articles and quote them.--En attendant Godot 13:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how it's any more relevant than "does Barack Obama have a sex life?" ADK ...I'll pander your blasphemy! 14:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The gospels say Jesus associated with prostitutes, the rest is speculation. I&#39;m not Jesus (talk) 14:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't care that anyone speculates at all. just say so.  "it's our best guess that" or, "if any rational person things about it, they'd conclude".  what you have now, however, are weasle words "there are many arguements about..."  and really, there aren't.  It's not something greatly discussed in true academic circles, cause most people in academic circles accept that 1) people marry around 15 in Jewish culture of the day, 2) to have any authority at all in jewish life, you must have fulfilled god's commandments to marry and build a family.  that is to say, in academic circles, most people who do NOT think jesus was born of a virgin and ressurected, but think he was a teacher or prophet or both, also think he was married.  Like i said, my issue is not the idea of setting up logical reasons or even silly reasons he might have been sexually active, but dont' imply that there are "arguments' and then not talk about them.--[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]En attendant Godot  14:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, "jesus", that worked perfectly. --[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]En attendant Godot  14:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The prostitutes business is speculation but the rest I hope is verifiable if you follow the links. I&#39;m not Jesus (talk) 14:54, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Birth
OK, I am biased here, but the whole second paragraph is very lame (unless intended as a joke, in which case it's not funny). Why would anyone "assume" that what is explicitly described as a supernatural event (THE supernatural event to some) was "parthenogenesis", a natural phenomenon? Beyond the slightly similar name, that is. Also, not having human DNA hardly seems to be a problem for Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is Lord God Almighty and has, you know, like, the power to create arbitrarily complex matter from nothing, at will (God might have used evolution the first time, but He's not constrained by that choice). So the whole point kind of falls apart. OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 08:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't quite follow your point. Did Jesus have a mixture of God's DNA and Mary's?--BobSpring is sprung! 09:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, the ABCs. Jesus is ontologically both God and Man. As a Man, he has full set of chromosomes. I think for theological reasons, half of these must come from The Most Holy Theotocos, Mary (so she's the true Mother of God, reinforcing Lord's human nature). The exact sequence of the other half is utterly unimportant for us. God could, for example, pull up the archived record of Adam's pre-Fall DNA undamaged by sin and just create a new set. Of course, this kind of stuff is just what Catholics would try to do, trying to explain the unexplainable. It just happened, OK?OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think you have answered my question. Did god provide half his DNA?  Furthermore, presumably Jesus had functioning testicles.  What would an analysis of his sperm have shown?--BobSpring is sprung! 12:10, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not know there's even any way to know this. Incarnation is a Great Mystery. Not even sure it's a valid question to ask - the only human DNA God is known to have for sure is Jesus's. OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 19:13, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Or, in English "don't ask awkward questions". Scarlet A.pngpostate 19:39, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Or, in English, involvement of the omnipotent Agency makes any bitty-gritty explanation utterly unfalsifiable. The initial argument rests on the assumption Holy Ghost "needs" human chromosomes to conceive a Son. God Almighty doesn't "need" anything for anything, almost by definition. OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 21:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well if your belief is "it's all done magically by God" then there wouldn't seem to be much point in having a scientific debate. But I'm prepared to try it in tiny steps. So let's start with ..
 * Did Jesus' cells have DNA? This is a simple factual question. Is there some magic reason which makes this unanswerable?--BobSpring is sprung! 22:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You realoze we are discussing an event described as "miracle", right? "Science" may have some problems figuring this one out. To answer your question, yes, Jesus has cells, which have DNA in them. The reason for this is not scientific but theological: Christ's complete and perfect humanity is one of the central Christian beliefs. OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 22:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Jesus had cells, or that he came from an egg.  In fact, mary awoke pregnant, and the child was "implanted" in her womb.  sounds like god put the baby there fully formed.  no egg or sperm required.  Also, john says that Jesus is the Word, and is bounded energy, which has nothign to do with cells.  So I'm suggesting he does not have cells.  --[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]Godot    Dear god, fucking grow up 22:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You're wrong here. Gospels have plenty of lines suggesting Jesus is human. John says "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" half a line after the verse you seem to be quoting. Two natures of Christ is the cornerstone of orthodox Christianity, as defined in Chalcedon. Bible don't talk about cells, but we do know people have cells from other sources. :) OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 04:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that Jesus was actually not the son of any god, and hence had a perfectly human father and mother. However, if one believes that Jesus was indeed the son of a god, he would not be bound by any biological rules, just as creationism is not bound by physical rules. "Did he have DNA?" is a theological question if you believe the latter, and a scientific question if you believe the former. 23:07, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, God's not bound by rules of nature. He's also not bound only to the overt "supernational" acts. I think Creationist pseodoscience is done by Christians who bought the atheist line that if something happened Naturally, therefor God didn't do it. That's sign of lack of faith, ironically. One very wise and very conservative Protestant minister characterised ID as "bad science and bad theology". That's even though he personally accepted literal 6-day Creation - based on his reading of the Bible, not phony science. OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 04:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been harping for quite a while on the point that atheists and creationists both draw too sharp a line between divine acts and natural occurrences, but neither do I take the view that these theological questions should not be probed, even if this means only to conclude, based on (lack of) evidence, that no hypothesis is more plausible than another. 05:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The reason for my pushing the point is to show that there are two separate things. Magic and science.  It's obviously impossible to find common ground between them whether it be Christian magic or any other.  Any attempt is domed.--BobSpring is sprung! 09:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's obviously impossible to find common ground between them... Oh, come now; that is a little rich, seeing as how the latter is derived from the former (chemistry, for example, came out of alchemy, while scientific medicine came out of herbalism and other religious practices).
 * Any attempt is domed. Such attempts would apparently fit nicely on the skyline of Istanbul. 04:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Atheists do not know any better, but what our creationist brothers show is lack of faith. "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign". OrthodoxBeliever (talk) 12:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Adding a Bible quotes section?
Most people when pressed retreat behind the teachings of the New Testament, especially Jesus.

I would welcome a section where all the negative/silly things which Jesus said/did are listed.

I know of him senselessly destroying a fig tree and that he told his followers to abandon their families. I think I could write a short section with maybe a handful of these cases, but I'd like to get other people's opinions before doind so. --MeisterKleister (talk) 01:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say give it a try. The community will probably edit it to their liking afterward but it sounds like a good idea. 01:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You could try a page of them, and not just a section. Peter Monomorium antarcticum 02:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I've added a new section. I'd say a new page is only necessary if we could get enough stuff together. For those curious, my source for these Bible verses about Jesus is this great video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSS-88ShJfo --MeisterKleister (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think these would be far more effective if you used direct quotes, rather than your own words. [[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]Godot    Grow a vagina 17:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked a few up, you need to be careful about context too. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>theist 17:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Please use direct quotes from some version of the Bible. Deleting for now.  03:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Not that a quote from the gospel writers is necessarily a quote from JC himself, but it's more useful than just paraphrasing or hyperbolising them.  19:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree. If we replaced what is there now with direct quotes, it would be a quote-mine. 00:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This web site apparently contains some great material for this section: http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm (just search for 'Jesus') But I'm too lazy right now to edit the article, will probably do so later, but if anyone else feels like it, please go ahead. MeisterKleister (talk) 17:29, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Luke 19
This article says "Jesus orders that his enemies are to be brought to him and to have them slaughtered in front of him."

But I dont think that is is the case. The bible says "While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said:"

So jesus was telling a story about someone else.


 * 


 * Nah, that's clearly him explaining the moral of the story, having finished retelling it. Peter Monomorium antarcticum 07:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If you read the one with the quote marks in the right place you can see the "kill all the things" bit is still part of the parable. Makes even less sense in context. What is the moral of it anyway? Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>moral 11:05, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Possible error?
I shan't edit until someone's clarified, but I think I see a grammatical error here, but I could be wrong.

"Since he ends up back in heaven anyway, modern freethinkers wonder where there was any sacrifice. "

Shouldn't it be why? That's the question I usually ask. --Polite Timesplitter talk to me sugar, but best keep it on thedown-low 14:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Where as in "where in the story". --Rutherford (talk) 14:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

As a Christian myself
This quite amused me. But the inability to portray Jesus as anything than what He was in the Bible belies a genuine understanding of why He came. The verses are all correct, in context and show that Jesus's claims - which I believe - were so outlandish that they parody themselves. 15:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC) &mdash; Unsigned, by: Genghis Khant / talk / contribs

Silver
Osaka seems to think so. Thoughts? Ty talk 05:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, what else are we particularly missing? This article is massive. Osaka Sun (talk) 05:45, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems pretty ok to me if a little snark heavy. Ty talk 05:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Historicity of Jesus
From what I understand from wikipedia (which has many sources on the matter), the historicity of Jesus' existence (and possibly his baptism and his crucifixion) are virtually undisputed by practically all reputable scholars in the field. I think the article should reflect that in some way, because this wiki should be as truthful as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_jesus
 * Consider actually reading the article in full? Including the section labeled Historical Jesus and its reference to another article, Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ. Go read that article, and then see if you find us lacking. Ochotona princeps<sup style="color:#0066DD; font-size: 0.7em; font-style: oblique">not a pokémon 08:04, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Jesus's family
Jesus was in his early 30s when he started preaching. (At the lime this would have been regarded as middle aged.) When he died his children would have been fairly young (probably 13-14 at most) - and would not have been sufficiently trained up as promoters of the faith or have the presence/authority to take on the leadership. His followers would have been considerably older and more knowledgeable and might well have taken over as a result - practicality, not malice. Or they could have been sent elsewhere/off to the Magi etc - so would be lost track of (there being no records or photographs).

Those keeping the records alive (by word of mouth or pen) would have considered Jesus' message more important than his family (or thought that another group had kept the information).

In the modern world, how easy would it be to find out how many children John Major or Gerald Ford had - or would their political record and inheritance be considered more important? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 16:40, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Cover story
This article should be a cover story.

Criteria: --TheoneandonlyduncanSend me hate mail 19:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Highly relevant to RW's mission: Jesus is the central figure of Christianity, the largest religion in the world.
 * Go to resource: It covers Jesus' whole life in detail.
 * All relevant topics in depth: Ditto.
 * Appropriate internal and external links and categories: Obvious if you look at it.
 * Referenced by good quality articles: Yep. Look at the links.
 * Supported by talk page: Now is YOUR time to act. Tell me what you think!

'Only begotten son'
At the beginning of the book of Job God converses with his sons - so unless there was a clone army 'summat odd there.' 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

And elsewhere there are references to Jesus' brothers and sisters, and him being Mary's first begotten child.

As for his children: say he was married at 14-18 (being then considered an adult) the oldest of his children could have been is 14-15, with his disciples being rather older - it would have been considered, given the situation in the region, more practical for some of the latter to take on the administration of Jesus' followers.

The first books of the Jesus faith were written down at least 15-20 years after his death so 'details of his family life' might well have been forgotten (or not considered relevant). Without looking it up, how many children did {public figure of a similar historicity now) have? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Gospels couldn't have been written prior to the year 70CE, which makes the 15-20 year number you just gave impossible. Just saying — you know, for starters. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:38, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I did say 'at least' (to take into account undiscovered wax-notebook lists of key points and similar). The points made are still valid (allowing for 'a little time' between bar mitzvah-equivalent and marriage). 82.44.143.26 (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

I have to disagree with Percy, all the gospels could not have been written after 70CE (A.D as we called it) as the fall of Jerusalem was in that period. both Jews and Christians were on the run from that point and no one had time to just sit down and write the gospels. Most of the apostles were dead by then and only John really lived to see the day when Christians were given a break from persecuition.--Whoknows (talk) 21:03, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Shock horror!
Some Yahoo click-bait. 86.191.145.34 (talk) 11:59, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

a little concern

 * This discussion was moved here from User talk:Christopher/AllArchives#a little concern.

On the Jesus page it says this, "The second account traces the lineage through Mary's father, actually tracing Jesus to "Adam and Eve" (Luke 3:1). But lineage was not transmitted through women back then, so double fail." there are some things wrong with this statement. First i'd like to point this out, Luke was not a Jew but a Greek, he was a convert to Judaism before he was converted to Christianity, so he didn't abide by the same rules as did birth Jews. Second, while it may be true that for the Jews it didn't go through the woman's line for the Greeks it was different. Luke did not right to the Jews as did Matthew and Mark but was writing to the Gentiles so it would have been written for the gentiles to understand. The system still runs through the mother to this day. --Whoknows (talk) 00:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * While I have absolutely no idea how lineage was traced in Judean times, I think it is pretty well established that none of the four gospels were actually written by the apostles. So you might want to look for another line of logic. --Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:59, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

actually the Gospel of John was a book that is obviously written by none other than John himself and is actually the last book that was written. While on the isle of Patmos he wrote the Revelation, later on when he was freed from Patmos he wrote the Gospel of John which he left before his death for the churches during a time of peace. Each gospel was written differently due to the circumstances of that time. The Gospel of Mark is short due to the fact of persecution of that time, they needed to be able to take what truth they could which was condensed so that they could be able to flee without having to take a large scroll.--Whoknows (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No, you are wrong. The author is anonymous - though some Christians deny this.--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:24, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. The Gospel of John is written in a way that shows a close view point of Jesus. We do know that John named himself in The Revelation when he states, Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. In the book of John, Jesus stated to Peter, John 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. To which was stated, John 21:23  Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? John mentions this because he does see him again in vision, this connects the Gospel of John and The Revelation together. Of course I know many want to see physical proof but there is next to none physical proof that there was a guy named John who followed Jesus. If he did exist I don't think he would have left much evidence anyway.--Rimuru Tempest (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2017 (UTC)