RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive350

Coronavirus in the Household (Negative Diagnosis)
My roommate has been quarantined for covid-19. There aren't enough tests in Maryland to actually test if he is infected for another 2 weeks or so, but because he has all of the symptoms he is to be quarantined anyways. Because I literally live with him I am supposed to enter quarantine as well. We stocked up a decent amount of food so we should be able to survive. Anyone else have any close to home cases they are willing to share? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The nearest COVID-19 case is in the next county. Now the governor of Michigan signed an order closing schools and restricting fast food restaurants to drive through only. Should help stem the spread of infection. All hospitals in Michigan have stopped visiting hours all together and cancelled all elective surgeries. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:08, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * We received the diagnosis from the doctor and the test came back negative, so we aren't under strict quarantine anymore. But since Trump is planning on ending the isolation in the states, we will probably get it anyways!  The average age of people where I work is 50+ while I'm in my twenties.  I don't worry for myself as much, but I really don't want my coworkers to die from Wall-Street-driven policy.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Update on my end
There are two confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Shiawassee County, MI. Time for some extra paranoia. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Adding WIGO Coronavirus to the template
Can someone add the WIGO Coronavirus link to the WIGO template that appears in every WIGO page? This is so everyone can easily travel there and they become aware that coronavirus-related news are to be transfered to its own WIGO page. Tuxer (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll give it a try.--NavigatorBR(Talk) - 00:40, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Got it 95% of the way there. Only thing I couldn't do is change the icon to the one I created, not sure how the icons are done in that template. Also "Coronavirus" was a touch long in the template, so I went with COVID-19 for a better fit.--NavigatorBR(Talk) - 00:54, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That will help greatly.Tuxer (talk) 01:06, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You probably need to create a light-up image for people that hover over it. Right now, I don't think the image is actually there, so it falls back to the WIGO world button. The icons seem to be sourced from this image, which is actually one image with 2 sets of icons: a dimmer one and another one that's lit up when you hover the mouse over it. But to create a unique icon, not only do you need to edit that image, it seems like you also need to edit MediaWiki:Common.css, hence the confusing div id tags in the template, and information on wigonav-button-xx including background position offsets (search with Ctrl+F  ) is reliant on that source image I talked about earlier. Probably should review Template talk:WIGO NAV and discuss changes there too. A lot of work for just an extra icon. I'm not a CSS expert at all, but I'm trying my best to see what is going on in Citizendium .  01:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, okay fuck that. Especially given we're likely reverting/undoing that edit in about 3 - 5 months (Hopefully).--NavigatorBR(Talk) - 02:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

An interesting for-profit distance learning school in the US
https://www.aiu.edu/index.html

The school is called "Atlantic International University" and it is based in Honolulu, Hawaii. Other than the odd name choice, here is what I find interesting- it is accredited by a UK based accreditation agency. The accreditation group called ASIC (not ACICS) is on the list of CHEA International Quality Group despite being British. Seems like a red flag, why would a US school claim British accreditation? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:08, 18 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, I don’t know if this 2015 thread might be of help? As for the choice of ASIC, it may simply be puffery to provide a veneer if international respectability, and ASIC accredits institutions all over the world (and seems none too picky about it). ScepticWombat (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I absolutely love that they brazenly chose to call themselves Atlantic International University despite being located smack dab in the middle of the Pacific. Really induces confidence about their ability to adequately teach science courses. 03:44, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Article worthy? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:18, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * they appear to be a distance learning institution. if they are marketed all over the world, international accreditation would make sense while its physical location a lot less important. atlantic might indicate that its seeking students not just in the us, but Europe too - both sides of the atlantic. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:37, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Anarchism page
I have been plotting changes to the anarchism page, which you can read here and give your input. There will be more changes, particularly to the ridiculously large ideology section.Tuxer (talk) 01:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not totally convinced about the changes so far but I will let you carry it and see how it goes. EK (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure it's an improvement. Anarchism is hard to write about because it's so varied, from Tolstoyan pacifists to streetfighting left-Communist revolutionaries. Your new draft doesn't respect that variety and generalizes a lot. Many anarchists are not at all violent, for instance. The existing article isn't particularly good but does a better job of reflecting the variety of anarchism. --Annanoon (talk) 12:23, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your input. The draft is not yet complete as I mentioned and there's more to be included. This will include a ideology section, although I will be rewritting some of the sections to make better description as some of the ideology description seem to be written with the idea that the reader is already familiar with anarchism and radical left terms though there won't be that many changes.Tuxer (talk) 18:10, 19 March 2020 (UTC)


 * thanks for doing this, though i definitely agree that some more anarchist ideologies are needed. In particular from me specifically i would suggest anarcho-transhumanism (i may be a little biased there :p) - as someone who is an anarchist of various flavours, feel free to ask about stuff but i'm not *super* involved in reading theory for all kinds of reasons, so in terms of citations I may be of less help, but i can provide terms to look for and general overview of concepts if you need that, and always bear in mind that I would be speaking from my own perspective, some anarchists will disagree with stuff I'd say ^.^ ⏣sapient_cogbag⏣ talk  19:21, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * don't forget right wing anarchism such as anprim, anfash, natan, anan, ancap, etc. You can easily commit the not true anarchism fallacy if you aren't careful. EK (talk) 19:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Careful there EK. Anprim often has its roots in deep-ecology and hard-green ethics which tends to be left-wing (though not exclusively as you noted). However, describing ancap and anarcho-nationalist movements as 'not anarchist' is not fallacious any more than arguing that the nazi's weren't socialists is fallacious. The fact that libertarians and fascists have tried to re-appropriate anarchist aesthetics (no matter how earnestly) does not negate the fact that their core ideology is in contradiction with the readings of politics, history and philosophy offered by the wider anarchist movement. Get ready, it&#39;s... (talk) 19:45, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Can the Is-Ought problem be overcome?
So the above is from a very hard Nihilist author, Ray Brassier. To me though his reasoning seems to fail according to Hume's "is-ought" problem, in a sense. Trying to establish purpose based on the facts of existence. But I have heard the same argument put forth by Intelligent design people that there is a designer to the universe and use "mother's milk" as an example. But that milk has a function, a purpose is something imbued onto the world and I just don't see how you can arrive there based on hard data. It's like asking a map where to go, all it can tell me is how to get there. It cannot tell me I "ought to" just how to. It's a tricky thing and I know it's originally a problem in moral philosophy but I think it applies to meaning as well.Machina (talk) 04:05, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Machina leveled up. Gained ability: actual philosophical question.  So I guess my question to answer your question would be "What do you think of various major philosophers' answers?"  Kant thought the very purpose of human reasoning was the decide what "ought" to be true, and Mill argued that the answer was embedded in recognizing ought in the difference between what is true, and some mathematically ideal condition one could find a path to.  Do either of those capture your attention as reasonable assessments?  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 12:38, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think any of them are entirely satisfactory. Kant saying the purpose of reason is to decide what ought to be still doesn't get around the deriving an ought from is. The guy in the quote told me he has been trying for 15 years to overcome the "deadlock" of nihilism by using pure reason and logic, but to me it seems like a futile effort. Hume mentioned something along the lines of "reason being a slave to the passions" and to me it's similar to the "is ought" problem. Our reasoning isn't something separate from our motivations but more of a vehicle of them. Sam Harris tried to do this with a well being argument but that fails because it doesn't say why we should "ought" to value well being. The author in the quote seems to try to achieve this without the "human centered" philosophy he lists as post Kantian. But philosophy itself is a human centered thing as is purpose, I don't see him getting anywhere on that one. I have read a number of others but these all seem to fall flat in that they just kick the can farther down the road. Some would argue that goal-directed behavior is an example of a solution but that just pins the problem down on the goal itself and why we "ought" to pursue it. Even then there is the problem of defining what is "good" and why we "ought" to seek it out. Though that makes me wonder if the "is ought" can be applied to the "is ought" in that if we can't derive an "ought" from an "is" then ought we do so?Machina (talk) 18:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * All of us start with some basic assumptions about what is good and then we derive oughts using those. Of course what those basic assumptions are is up to you, or up to the forces that shaped you (ok, let's not get into free will as well as nature vs nurture on top of is ought shall we). One might even argue the word "ought" doesn't make any sense whatsoever and is quite meaningless/unusable unless you already have a set of basic moral assumptions. One difficulty we are faced with sometimes is trying to figure out how those basic assumptions that are within us are formulated and/or whether they have been changed recently and why. Nullahnung (talk) 19:49, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * And, as usual, it really is not as simple as "is" and "ought" statements. Take the "is" statement "X activity is always bad." That proposition has the "ought" entailed in it. We assume that bad actions are among those that we ought not undertake. Ariel31459 (talk) 20:51, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * So it isn't simple, Kant did state that what "is" true was the only good, but what "ought" to be true is separated from what "is" perceived, and we don't have a method for what "ought" to be percieved. So let's say I both read and believed a poe article (it's happened to me before).  A person is acting in good faith asking me what I know about the subject, and I say "I've read that etc but I dunno" saying that exact truth and nothing more.  The difficulty is you can't apply this as a system, you can't have ten people tell their exact truth and nothing more and expect to have ideal information.  But were it Kantian, I think we would come up with something more consistent like "I don't know" built into the answers.  At least in hard philosophy.
 * So, as nasty as it hurts me, there is an effect that reads something like "the easier it is for us to read and understand the experts, the more we feel like experts ourselves."  And my answer is, I don't know.  What do we do, how do we compare objectivity and subjectivity?  It's fucking hard.  I am in the camp that we do have a reason to define objectivity and subjectivity as mutually exclusive, and trying to combine the two is a redundancy built from our necessity to define things, but that reason isn't special, our personal and communal abilities are fucking unique. The universe may not ever see an attempt like ours to understand it again, but not for any particular purpose.  But I'm also not good at using words to define that.  I'm a hard-deterministic nihilist who is willing to call cobalt, azure, and lapis all "blue" to get the walls painted.  Is it dishonest?  Yeah it is, I wanted the walls painted cobalt, damn it, just because I can't describe the difference... oooooohhhh, you damn painters. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:39, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem I see is that there are potential 'oughts' that just can't be reached. It would be really nice, for example, if sexuak jealousy could be purged from the human repertoire of emotions.  Its role in serious crime around here is major.  But it relates directly to reproductive success and parental investment, so it's bred in the bone and won't be legislated or argued away.  There are many more; the 'clean and unclean' instinct is really bad when it gets turned on your neighbors, but editing that out exceeds our present abilities.  'Is' and 'ought' are not identical, but what 'is' sets limits to the practial 'oughts'.  It's an open question whether 'ought' should be confined to what's achievable. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 15:46, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, that's the trouble. The only way to reach the "oughts" is to understand the "is" and the only way to prove the "ought" is to define the "is," which is where we hit Nietzsche, who said it is more important to live than worry about whether you are alive, a la "stare into the abyss and it stares back."  And I get out of that, that "the abyss" can the absolute ephemeral pointlessness of anything as simple as human nature or as complex as culture.  So, what's the trouble is when philosophy is used to transcend humanity, which can be really useful, or really harmful.  Philosophy is human created, it is available to be used by humans, and it is a tool as valuable as language.  Just, some people use a hammer to whack nails, some people use a hammer to whack heads.  Sometimes people juggle hammers on the street for money, shit, I don't know what to say to a society that simultaneously believes in the validity of sexual jealousy and criminalizes the acts it causes.  The early "oughts" in my society had a lot of media that made complete satire of this idea of the tortured male who just deserved the girl and wanted the girl to do what she was supposed to do, the old trope of the girl "stolen" because it was a good time to shit on old media that held a philosophy that a tier list goes God, Man, NASCAR, woman, innocent little child can't do nothin wrong on purpose.  But I grew up in a society and era of satire on part of that subject, questioning whether gender really had anything to do with agency, and the answer is definitely no.  Definining Agency is a fucking hellhole, I guess lucky me I grew up on jokes about toxic masculinity being shitty, I guess it's time to revisit agency.  Fuck me.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Under a state of emergency: fun times
https://www.wnem.com/news/breaking-shiawassee-county-declares-state-of-emergency/article_bbd2e744-6878-11ea-9afb-6fd4dfdb5b78.html

Things might be a bit hectic for me over the next several weeks. Going to be extremely tedious. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:16, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Mortality
You know, when I die, I'll be okay knowing that I lived life as a good person, and that I did my best to help others even at my own expense. Death is inevitable, why not make peace with the reaper while you still can? — Oxyaena Harass  19:18, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Because here is no such thing as the reaper, and the concept of "making peace" with it is utterly meaningless? By all means feel good about yourself while alive - 'cos after that it simply doesn't matter. Aloysius the Gaul 19:44, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Apparently metaphor is another thing that eludes you. — Oxyaena Harass  19:52, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is (part of) the philosophy of modern stoicism. I recommend it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * death might be inevitable, but im in no hurry. i have no known health conditions that would make a sudden death imminent, though getting hit by the bus would be infuriating. though a sudden death would not give you time for reflection, for worry, for existential dread. why worry about that? Im probably past an age where the ravages of time and cancers and the like make a terrible tragedy, it wouldn't be cutting short a life in the full flush of youth, no need to rail against the injustice of life ending before its really begun. still no doubt suck though.
 * but again, why worry about the inevitable? its living that's tough. if theres something to make peace with its life. do that while it might make a difference. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Many moons ago I had several childhood friends, among them were Cyril, Chris and Vic. Vic died in his twenties, Cyril in his thirties and Chris in his forties. I’m 75 - win! Many friends and relatives have died since then. Once I've gone then nothing will matter to me because there'll be no 'me'. Until then I'll carry on much as I have.
 * We are a (IMHO) rather selfish species of animal infesting a very, very, very, small chunk of the universe and once we're gone nothing will matter to us because there'll be no 'us'. Scream!! (talk) 21:42, 18 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Metaphor eludes me no more than reality eludes you. Aloysius the Gaul 22:00, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Why do you have to nitpick everything? What's the fucking point? It's a harmless cultural allusion, fuck off. — Oxyaena Harass  22:49, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Both of you- take it easy. No need to kill each other. Seems like the case of "agree to disagree". --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:49, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * as far as I can see no one has been killed by whatever potentially lethal activity you are referring to. Oxy asked a question - I answered - seems they takes some issue with my opinion - that's OK - they can chose to ignore a perfectly valid philosophical position if they choose - shrug - and I have an opinion about that.  Again shrug..... it's all here for folk to make their own conclusions from. Aloysius the Gaul 23:54, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I did watch the vsauce that implied reminders of one's own mortality can shape the way we attempt to influence the world. Like, I'm maybe not punitive because I'm not scared of dying.  I've had a good life, I've done more good than bad, I'd like to do more good.  But my brother had a Catholic wedding, and has a daughter that he cares about more than life.  And damn it all, I care about that little girl too, but lucky me I don't have to worry about whether or not she's taken care of.  My brother did break his leg and I mowed his lawn all summer/fall (got called lawnmower boy by his neighbors, as if that isn't a flat out insult, but I don't think they had ever seen Lawnmower Man, so whatever), I did catch a DUI and my brother drove me to work, I do absolutely adore my niece, and I'm excited for my soon to arrive nephew, maybe he'll use the same playset I built in his backyard for his sister.  But fuck, my family at large thinks I'm hard to figure out.  Buckle up, I ain't dead yet.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:32, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Enjoy what you can of the world (decorative clouds, the rainbow colours of 'a drop of oil on the road' etc) and do 'the little things' that make you and others happy/have a better life (holding the door open, contribute to the wikiverse, moving a potential trip hazard out of the way, etc) and similar as a way of life (even if you hope that the person who bumped into you has it happen to them twice etc). Whatever else you will have made a positive contribution as a result. Anna Livia (talk) 13:14, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

If Holocaust Deniers were the ones being exterminated and not the Jews during WW2
I keep wondering how holocaust deniers would feel if they were the roles were reversed- if Germans/white people were in the camps and Jews orchestrated genocide? Bet they would stop denying the holocaust. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:11, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Uh yes. They already make claims that they're being genocided because non-white people dare to exist.  I don't think you've found a stunning new insight there.  Of course they understand bad things are bad when they happen to them.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 02:47, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not "dare to exist", but rather, that non-whites dare to marry and have children with whomever they love, plus white people can no longer rape black people with impunity. In the good ol' days, the constant raping of black people could've been considered a rather slow black genocide, where the black population would eventually "whiten" until there was little actual African DNA left, much like what happened to the Natives in Latin America, who became Mestizos.  It wasn't completely thorough, as many "white enough" black people entered white society and intermarried, which resulted in a lot of Southerners being "1/16th Cherokee", but racists will ignore that bit.
 * Now, as intermarriage is legal and increasingly accepted or at the very least tolerated, you are seeing far more mixed young adults and children than you did 50 years ago. In fact, "pure" (ignoring "part Cherokee") white people are majority-minority among Gen Z.  I.e., while still the largest demographic, white people are no longer the majority in future generations.  For a lot of old folks, many of whom were considered "liberals" 60 years ago, this is uncomfortable.  For even mild racists, this is catastrophic.  Thus, the "white genocide" canard. CoryUsar (talk) 15:23, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I`m 1/8th and am on the rolls. — Oxyaena Harass  17:08, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm an ethnic Jew, and I know the pain of Holocaust denial. Some of my maternal family died during those terrible 6 years, and yet, white nationalists (coupled with some, but very few Muslims and even some Jews) continue playing the victim. This is why I think racism of any kind can fuck itself. If the Jews actually orchestrated genocide against the Arabs whites, it would be almost impossible, because there were only 10 million Jews in Europe in a continent of around 150 million prior to World War II, so it would be hard for a minority to kill of the majority. (Unless you actually believe in this shit.) — Jeh2ow Damn son!  15:37, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Although I am not 100% sure I would not be surprised if people on my mom's side of the family was in camps. Plenty of Polish, Greek, Czech, Slovakian, possibly Jewish (not sure on that one) among others who were likely put into camps. I also have Irish and Spanish heritage, those people were targeted by KKK members. I would not support that BS even if I was paid to. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 14:09, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the question. You can only really be a "holocaust denier" after the holocaust has taken place. If you were the one actually being killed I guess you could deny you were being killed as it happened to you, but it would be a difficult position to hold.

If you mean the ethnic group (whatever that may mean) then, even after the fact, it would be improbable that you would deny the killings had taken place. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:07, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Violence is most useful to maintain a status quo. The disaffected be damned.    I was once lucky enough to watch a pack of wolves celebrating finding a dead bison.  We were given the heads up that if you see a yellow Nissan Extera in Yellowstone, that's the Wolf Man, and he's very friendly, he just really likes watchin them wolves.  We saw an Extera, we got to look through Wolf Man's binoculars as one wolf was laying on top of the dead bison, looking casual as fuck as the rest of the wolves (I have to be careful not to call them dogs, because some definitely had the zoomies) edged  in.  They didn't kill it, they found it, and all the young wolves were running around.  But wolf man said "That's the alpha female.  She's not going to let anyone eat until she's hungry,"  It was a pack of wolves, way cool experience, but like, we were looking through his binoculars, and it was pretty clear he wanted to be watching them, so we thanked him and moved on.  If some wolf sat on top of my next few days meal, I'd eat the damn wolf too, no that's a bogus joke;  That's the problem with threats versus violence.  I bet Mama wolf could have kicked anybody's ass, but she didn't need to, she laid on that carcass like it was a sofa.  Tiger Mom my ass, Wolf Moms are out there too.   Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:12, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

A city flag
I watched a TED talk about how city flags are the worst flags on the planet, and that got me thinking; what if I design a flag of my own for a city? So here it is: The blue symbolizes friendship (also water if a river body borders the city), the yellow for courage, and the orange for equality and unity, with a star to symbolize that the city is unique, like all other cities. This could be a great flag to replace the clusterfuck that is the. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  20:56, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Given renewed opposition to change, I doubt this will make headway. Nerd (talk) 21:03, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant any city, smartass. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  21:53, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure you did. You were proposing a replacement for a particular city, no? Nerd (talk) 21:56, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I like the color choice for the flag. But zomg I really like the Milwaukee flag, it's fantastically terrible. 22:16, 19 March 2020 (UTC)


 * They threw in the kitchen sink but, it doesn't even seem to have the thing that Milwaukee is most famous for: beer. They could have put a can of PBR on a plain background and it would have been more accurate/an improvement. Bongolian (talk) 07:48, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I like the Imperial stormtrooper in a flying saucer. Every city flag should have one. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 22:25, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * On my mom's side of the family, there's a motto "Prosper or die." The crest includes thistle.  I read that motto as a stupid prepositional phrase.  I can prosper and die, thank you very much.  I like your flag, it's cool because it's clearly got a meaning.  I was born in Kansas, the state flag is an insurmountable art piece.  It's not the best art piece, but it captures a lot.   I mean, when I was as little kid using MS paint, the most fun I had was using the gradient tool to create sunsets.  Why not work to create a better city flag?  Well, because it's scary and hard, and it gets harder the more you have an idea and don't know who to go with it.   I'm with ya, dude, every spot on your flag is defined, that's not your city flag, that's your flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba9l3vU9lIE

Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm impressed that we have an SVG of that monstrosity on Wikipedia. Also, how is it 147th out of 150 city flags. How bad were the other flags that Milwaukee's was better.--NavigatorBR(Talk) - 04:02, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What is an SVG? like, a png or a jpeg?  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Scalable vector graphic. An image created with curves,fill, color values (think our portal icons, most of them); don't become pixelated when scaled compared to raster graphics (a .jpg and .png; they use pixels like most images you see in RationalWiki). Believe me, there is a worse flags in that list. At least they adopted a flag after 2017, but it makes you wonder, why in 2017. Why at all? 04:41, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * At least I wasn't far off once I cooled down a bit. What's so bad about creating a flag, as long as it's for yourself and not prescriptive?  I like the endeavor, and the spacing is good enough for flag rules, maybe a little presumptuous, we're not all deep state artists, fun is fun, fuck me.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:54, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I hope this looks like a dump I recently took, and that the colors would be too expensive to reproduce, because that's what I was going for. {https://imgur.com/a/Er3WiUn] Gol Sarnitt (talk) 08:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * i imagine city flags are terrible because they are city flags and no gives a shit about city flags. least of all whoever gets lumbered with the creation of one with a checklist of local trivia they are absolutely required to incorporate some how. its a case of fuck it that will do, and they are shat out never to be considered ever again. if there is a city hall with the city flag flying on a flagpole, they have too many flagpoles. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:01, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Word. But the American flag is abused in America.  I have heard that it is strange for a church outside of America to have the nation's flag just sitting in there, ready to go.  It's pretty normal in America.  The end of an olive tree is supposed to be an olive, there's supposed to be some end and implied depth and then you work from that, but Evangelicals don't trust anything but the American flag itself to unite sects.  It's a bummer that (for a while) we have to deal with "it's unAmerican" as a legitimate criticism.  Like, Americans are the ones pushing for something democratically that spooks the Evangelicals entirely, but this quick rebuttal of it's "unAmerican" mobilizes a base, eat me.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:23, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Staying sane during the pandemic
Okay I admit that I am having my struggles but I swear that the idiocy of others and the panic buying has put me on edge. Didn't think too much about until today. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:30, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * We share something in common: we aren't scared of the virus. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  02:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep in touch with friends, family and loved ones online or by phone. Arrange hangouts online where you talk about shared interests, take a trip down memory lane or whatever takes your fancy. Try to keep some sort or schedule, especially if you work from home and be careful about actually ending up working far more than usual. For example, my sister had to tell her bosses to stop a new promotion campaign because the company and its staff already have their hands full dealing with existing customers and she also had to start scheduling walking the dog etc., otherwise her work would take over her entire day. Also, start reading or listening to to books you always tell yourself that you really should complete. Binge watch films or YouTube or binge listen to podcasts about topics that interest you. ScepticWombat (talk) 06:01, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Just you give you some ideas, I'm spending time editing RationalWiki, messaging others in video game message boards, talking to people in Discord, 3D modeling, sketching, sinking a lot of time in The Sims 4, entertaining my cockatiel. Heck, my life isn't all that different, just that I can't really hang out with my friends but I still stay in touch with them via Discord, but most of them aren't people I know irl. I also have benefit for having a twin sister that has the same interests as me, so there's always someone next to me having fun with the same stuff I enjoy. The hardest thing so far is just the goddamn people buying some of the food. Why people decide to stock on milk, that'll mystify me, but it's so annoying because it's one of the beverages I drink.
 * Why not write something, Rationalzombie94? Continue working on that. You have personal life experience you can even input into your story about zombie outbreaks. 06:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Breaking news! Trump has decided to construct a giant wall of fans around the US to stop the virus and China is going to pay for it!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:43, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Powered by hot air generated by politicians and the computer fans of CV conspiracy theorists. Anna Livia (talk) 15:09, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm getting really stir-crazy at this point. My uni moved classes online and basically everything here is shut down, so I haven't been away from home in a week. My job requires that all non-essential personnel (including me) work from home, but I can't do any actual work from home because the materials I need to do that are at work. So I've been spending my time writing a nonsense program with essentially no real-world application, doing online classwork (of which there is not much), watching old episodes of Last Week Tonight, and writing, and it's getting incredibly boring. 15:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * In Spain the lockdown is pretty tight. It's a minimum 800 euro fine if you can't give a valid reason for being in the street.  I'm luckier than many as I'm retired, no debts and no kids. But this must be sheer hell for people who need jobs, have debts to pay and kids to take care of. And we are less than a week in to something that could last months.
 * I'm trying to keep fit enough that I will actually be able to walk back to the street afterwards.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:32, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm lucky in that I can still get paid and I have a place to be. The worst that can happen to me is boredom and depression, so compared to many others, I have it good. 16:50, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I feel a bit weird because, so far, I’m working more or less as normal — albeit from home. It’s bit of a process of discovery by trial and error in what works and what doesn’t online as opposed to face-to-face and there is more prep work to be done as a result of that, but otherwise I just beaver away at it and see what comes of it. I’m glad that I am in continuous contact with colleagues by phone and online or I’d probably turn into a total couch potato. And I’ve taken up an interest in shaking cocktails (preferably classics or tiki) when the work day is over, trying a new one every couple of days or so. ScepticWombat (talk) 17:15, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm about to go apeshit locked up in my house with my parents I have to have social contact with other people than my parents because I cannot stand them!St.~Emi (talk) 23:30, 20 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * My issue is not that I am quarantined (because I am not) but the wave of paranoia and business closures has been tense. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:30, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * My parents are in their early 80s and are keeping a very low profile. I would love to go and see them and spend some time with them now, but circumstances say I shouldn't. That truly sucks. Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile we introverts are going, uh, what's the big deal? I don't need to go outside where the Yellow Face That Burns is? Great! ;) Of course I realize not everyone is like me. Lots of books to read! I hear they even have books on the Internets these days! (Check if libraries around you will let you check-out books remotely. Also hit up Project Gutenberg for public domain stuff.) And there's lots of great stuff on YouTube. Just avoid the nutjobs. (Suggestions: CrashCourse, PBS Space Time.) Also vidya games! Roguelikes are fun! Start learning a programming language! If you're new to programming go with Python. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 03:47, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ugh, Python is a scourge. Learn C(++) or R (or really any language with a one-letter name - D and S are also options). 04:35, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Why is it a "scourge"? It's a perfectly decent language. There is no perfect language. No one should learn C as their first language. It's a 1970s language (that was originally intended as a "portable assembly") with sharp edges everywhere that new programmers cut themselves on constantly. New programmers shouldn't be thrown into the deep end having to get their heads around pointers, manual memory management, and all that. (Even experienced programmers fall prey to things like buffer overflows!) C++ can be okay if you start with modern idiomatic C++, but it's still got pitfalls newbies can wander into easily, especially if they go off random Googling instead of good books/tutorials. Plus, of course, the standard library has a lot fewer bells and whistles than languages like Python, so before long they'll want to do something fancy and then they have to jump into learning about linking and toolchains. The other languages are nowhere near as widely-used, not to mention S/R are targeted at statistical computing; I wouldn't recommend them as a first language. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 07:10, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Python's ubiquity is undeserved and annoying for a number of reasons. General-purpose interpreted languages are clumsy -- sure, it increases portability, but it also has a lot of ugly side effects and clutters up the user's system. One of those side effects is that programs frequently rely on a separate package manager from that of the system (pip or conda, usually), which is absurd. The other is that for the annoyingly common conda-reliant applications, users have to do a silly amount of manual configuration to simply get the program to run compared to a simple binary application. I realize these criticisms apply to R as well, but because it's specifically targeted to statistical computing, it's much easier to avoid (whereas Python applications are everywhere, from genomics to video game modding). R package management/environment setup is also much less annoying than pip/conda, imo. Also problematically, a load of programs and even new learners are still stuck on using the EOL Python 2.7 because they failed to implement enough backwards compatibility to enable easy migration (much like GTK, which I also dislike).
 * I do understand that C could be overwhelming to a new learner, but it's very important to know C/C++ if the user wants to do serious programming work. Learning to do manual memory management at the start is likely easier than starting off with an automatically managed language -- I started programming with C# and transitioning to manual memory management was very difficult. I disagree that the limited application of R (or S) makes it less than ideal as a first language; if anything, I would say it makes it easier to acquire because it provides a more gradual introduction to programming concepts that may be somewhat confusing to novices like loops and logic, more emphasizing quick statistical operation and generation of graphs. That also means results are more immediately visible, which may encourage learners to continue. Of course, it may not be of interest if a person doesn't know or care about statistics, so they may wish to learn a different language and that's fine. 16:16, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The package managers are because Windows and some other platforms don't have a package manager. The only reason why they're mainly found with "interpreted languages" (you probably know, saying this for the peanut gallery, any language can be interpreted or compiled, this just refers to the "standard implementation") is libraries come as a bunch of source/object/whatever files, while with compiled languages you can link statically or be quick-and-dirty by just copying DLL files around, though this still causes headaches but we just put up with it because lol market dominance. On lots of Linux/BSD distros you still use the system package manager for Python/etc. libraries and it drives the language package manager for you. Anyway I'm not super-against R/S; a newbie just needs to know they'll have to branch out into other languages for more general stuff. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 23:26, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm firmly sticking to my delusion that Windows does not exist and everybody else also uses GNU/Linux, so I don't have to worry about Windows's lack of a package manager. (Really, I understand the need for it there, but I also firmly believe that software should not unnecessarily decrease its quality in order to conform to shitty standards like those put in place by Windows -- I would much prefer having no Windows support to being cross-platform but having subpar *nix support.)
 * I'm not aware of the package managers with which I'm familiar (apt/slapt-get) having total or even high-quality pip/conda integration, although I know there are some pip packages that can be installed with Debian apt. Perhaps it's not as well-integrated in my distros. And yeah, I agree on the R/S front that newbies should know that they'll need to branch out. 00:18, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Trump's Pressers are a Mesmerizing Shitshow of Awfulness
From today's... whatever the fuck that was:

Reporter: "Mr President, what do you say to Americans who are watching right now and are scared?" Trump: "You are a terrible reporter, that is a very nasty question."

Imagine, as a human being being unable to say even the glibbest of platitudes. Still, I'm sure nobs will be along shortly to tell us just how much Trump cares, that his heart is just so full of Jesus' love that he can't articulate how much he doesn't want people to be scared. RoundeTheeHorne (talk) 17:11, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Better that the hate-filled drivel from Gavin Newsom last night: “A state as large as ours, a nation-state, is many parts, but at the end of the day, we’re one body. There’s a mutuality, there’s a recognition of our interdependence that requires of this moment that we direct a statewide order for people to stay at home. That directive goes into force and effect this evening and we are confident that the people of the state of California will abide by it, will do the right thing.” So, so hateful and cruel, vile, nasty, not the kind of quality reassuring heart-warming personal insults, untruths, and immediately-walked-back-afterwards nonsense that represents what true leaders provide. Semipenultimate (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What a monster. Hanging's too good for him. RoundeTheeHorne (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Y'all are honestly surprised at this? It's Trump. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  20:32, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Trump really got exposed at how incompetent and out of his element he is by this whole thing. He was so lucky to have coasted in during a good economy. Luckily the "deep state" can keep things running fairly smoothly these days, even though he did his best to gut public health capacity before the crisis. He was and remains very hopeful this thing will just blow over and everyone can get back to work this April. Sorry, Donny, this will be with us until the end of Spring. Neo Stalinist (talk) 03:38, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Gavin Newsom, like Graven Newbsom!!!! 21:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The "Mr President, what do you say to Americans who are watching right now and are scared?" clip needs to be seen to comprehend how insane it is. Just reading that little quotation doesn't do it justice. Clip of the exchange. Seriously, go watch it. It's such a bad and unhinged response for a fucking layup question. It was a fucking gimme.--NavigatorBR(Talk) - 22:05, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's required watching, right up there with him openly laughing at a governor because the federal government is just straight outbidding state governments for critical equipment rather than negotiating en bloc, and that time when he showed who he really was by admitting that he was keeping people off-shore on a corona-positive cruise ship because he didn't want the numbers to go up in-country. It is only, and ever, about him, period. Semipenultimate (talk) 22:25, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "I think it's a very nasty question, it's a very bad question". "Bad reporting, it's sensationalism" I.e. "Fahek nooz!!" And then proceeds to say that Americans need answers? They want an answer from you. That's not an answer. 23:23, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, I am very surprised at this response. Trump, if nothing else, has always been able to pop out some kind of "uplifting"-- and by uplifting I mean his base will swallow it-- statement when confronted by this sort of question.  I had expected him to spew out his usual "It's all right!  Very right!  Infact, it's not only under control, but we're on the edge of using this to our advantage!  We're going to make America great again AND beat this by next month!  Oh, and it was all my idea" self-serving nonsense.  But this time we saw behind his facade.  It'll be a while before he can walk this one back. Kencolt (talk) 06:22, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That was a weird one. It was really a softball question. But he was incapable of responding. Stranger than usual.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The trumpets are already going "tat journalist is just being annoying and in bad faith". Such a stupid crop of brass pansies. 23:24, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Most of his predecessors would have handled the question better including 'expletive deleted' and Saint Ronnie. Anna Livia (talk) 19:36, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

The Olympic Games
According to this Bloomberg article, Japan may have a recession for about a year or so if the Olympic Games were cancelled. America's swimming coach has already asked for the games to be postponed, while a token black Tory in Shaun Bailey has claimed that because of the coronavirus, London can host the games. What neither people realize is that if the Olympics are indeed cancelled, a lot of money could be wasted, and Japan could enter a severe recession. You see, the last Olympics in Rio costed about 13 billion dollars, so hosting the Games is expensive. The worst case was Athens in 2004: Greece had spent literally all their money on the games, but made a massive loss. In fact, there was such a massive loss that it ended up contributing to Greece's debt crisis, which had a domino effect across Europe and may have led to the Great Recession. If you think Greece had it bad, Tokyo will have it way worse if the Games are cancelled. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  01:21, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Organ donation: the moral catch-22 (praying for an organ transplant)
By that I mean is praying for organs because by proxy- you are praying for somebody to die. You want to save the life of a family member or friend who needs an organ and you pray for it not thinking much of it though you are still praying for death. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I really get the dichotomy, but when you are a donor, you REALLY get the dichotomy. The catch 22 is more about "if you don't want to do it, that's evidence that you'll have to do it."  So I hope you mean you don't necessarily  want to donate but you mean to.  Gol Sarnitt (talk)
 * Since praying accomplishes fuck all, what does it matter? Spud (talk) 04:45, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * *religion brain* Everything happens in accordance with God's plan, so only people who deserve death or "whose time has come" will die. (P.S. institute opt-out organ donation) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:11, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I should word it this way- would you want a person to die to save the person you love and care for? Subtracting the religion part. Coronavirus Zombie wants toilet paper --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:51, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That still implies that wanting somebody to die will magically make someone you've never met die, which it wont. Spud (talk) 04:01, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * will make some one die? no. hoping someone might die? I had a neighbour who was on dialysis for quite awhile. once after an organ donation fell through for some reason, I remember his mother looking up to the skies and saying 'oh well. looks like rain. we might get lucky'. you don't need to religious to be troubled by a situation where you don't want someone to die, but someone needs to. the lack of agency while you or you watch some one you love whither away likely has an effect but I don't think cold reason is enough to shake any doubts of your worthiness for an organ presented to you that the day before you crossed your fingers hoping for a fatal accident. im assume some form of counselling is available to organ recipients. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:17, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah no, see, god just reschedules an organ donor already slated for random, undeserved, inexplicable, part-of-the-ineffable-plan death to have a death that allows for organ donation. See?  Nice and clean and easy.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:50, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I am an organ donor, full stop. What I meant to say before is "if you don't want somebody to die because you love them, you have to be an organ donor, because somebody else who is loved needs it as much as you can imagine" which follows Aquinas.  I'm not exactly taking care of my organs as if I would expect them to be useful to anyone else, but they seem pretty hearty so who knows, if I get smeared in the street maybe whatever's left could be useful to somebody.  Blood donation is also a less fatalistic way of helping out, and then you get to see your iron levels and know your blood type.  It's not magic, and I think that's where the JW crowd bows out on it.  But for the people who don't believe in magic and aren't organ donors, there's always Danny DeVito as Frank Reynolds.  "That.  That is not my future.  I'm not gonna be buried in a grave.  When I'm dead, just throw me in the trash."  Letting go of your body as an entity in and of and limited to itself isn't easy.  But saying you have the confidence to be an organ donor is a really good-faith step that you, luckily, won't have to answer for in your own life.  So, if you think you shouldn't be an organ donor, it's more likely that you will have to ask yourself why you aren't if you either need an organ or if, in that last moment before you get hit by the bus, your life flashes before your eyes.  Aquinas and Pascal would have been organ donors, in my opinion, their "greater good than we can naturally comprehend" arguments don't lend themselves to hold on to your physical body even after you're dead lines of thinking.   Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:24, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I got an incurable blood borne disease. I can give no blood nor organs. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:48, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

organ donation guilt AMassiveGay (talk) 13:52, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could pray that a Bad Guy has a motorcycle accident, but that since he became an organ donor that's enough of a redemption to let him into heaven so everyone wins? CoryUsar (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * but what if it were hitler who got the organ? or the organ was from hitler? AMassiveGay (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * and I am reminded of the tangentially related George best - the legendary footballer who also happened to be a legendary alcoholic. destroyed his liver through drink. there was much controversy when he received a transplant. new liver, new start, but still an alcoholic and soon back on the piss. ultimately did not get much mileage from the new liver. there was much debate at the time about the squandering of precious resources on someone whose debilitating disease is seen as a moral failing, but maybe to far off topic AMassiveGay (talk) 21:01, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Good point. I'm low key re-considering my own donor status, but my organs work very well right now.  I don't think you can shave off a piece of liver and transmit managed alcoholism, and I don't think I've ever put my kidneys through stress, I've never had a kidney stone but I've known four people who have, and it seems like a salt and sugar thing. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:22, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Look at this
--Alola, my name is Delibirda! (talk) 15:49, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Systems? Like, this entire damn thing we call capitalism? 18:41, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * We truly do live in a society --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking at taskbar at bottom: I'd skriv her for a soke, ifyaknowwhaddimeanandithinkyado! --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * wot in tarnation? 21:16, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * forn language 23:23, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * But Norwegian isn't a language, it's just Swedish if it was written by illiterate Danes! (Of course, Danish is just drunk Swedish as spoken by Norwegians and Swedish is just pretentious Danish as read aloud by Finns). 23:57, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As a wise man once said, 'if she won't wap for a win, let her trine for a make.' Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 00:37, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Video
A video I liked from Trey the explainer. WARNING: NSFW --Alola, my name is Delibirda! (talk) 15:57, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh shit is that a motherfucking Jojo reference? Also yes, same-sex sexual activity is everywhere among non-human animals. This is irrelevant as to whether it's bad or good in humans of course. But realize that most people pushing "it's unnatural" don't really care about any of that. They're making an assertion that sounds on its face religiously-neutral, but what they mean is "It's against God/the gods' natural order". Of course, what this "natural order" consists of is determined by them or their religious leaders. (At least the Catholics are more honest about this, with their whole "natural law" shtick.) In turn, deep down the motivation is making sure people pop out babbies for our tribe. That's why the super-patriarchal Abrahamic religions get so worked-up about it. See also abortion and contraception. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I found it interesting because I like to watch zooology videos. And yeah, you are right.—Alola, my name is Delibirda! (talk) 06:53, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

To everyone else outside the US: are you guys experiencing shortages on toilet paper? Yes this is a serious question
Here in the US people believe that COVID-19 will cause diarrhea and are hoarding toilet paper. Guess people don't realize that SARS stands for "Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome" and has nothing to do with the shits. Are stores outside the US having toilet paper shortages? I cannot believe that I am seriously asking this question. What is this world coming to? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:16, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * it can give you the shits apparently. london here, and I got plenty of tp. food however...AMassiveGay (talk) 19:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There is always chopped up newspaper as used to be the case (unleaded ink is preferable). Anna Livia (talk) 19:33, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we saw similar hoarding/panic buying of toilet paper (the most prevalent) and various other goods in my country (and several other European ones) as well. However, the panic buying and hoarding of the first couple of days, when lockdowns were initially issued, seems to have subsided somewhat by now. I haven’t been shopping for several days, though, so I don’t have any up to date first hand impressions. ScepticWombat (talk) 21:23, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Btw, I don’t think people bought toilet paper because of they thought they needed it if they got COVID-19 per se, but because they were panicking about the prospect of being isolated at home without toilet paper and then, of course, the prospect of the shops running out of supplies added fuel to the panic buying.
 * Another odd thing people have been buying up around here is baker’s yeast (and flour). This is also something I remember from back in 1998 when a general strike led to similar hoarding of baker’s yeast. Nevertheless, I’ll bet that most of those who have bought the stuff have hardly baked as much as a flat bun before and probably won’t actually be using most of the stuff, although the odds are probably higher now than in ‘98, given that so many are outright isolated in their homes. ScepticWombat (talk) 21:33, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Your correspondent in Taiwan (that so far has been remarkably unaffected by coronavirus) can tell you this. I was in a small local supermarket last Thursday afternoon. There were more people there than usual. Three of them were each buying three large multi-packs of tissues, that are normally used here instead of rolls of toilet paper. (One of them was a Buddhist monk. Totally irrelevant but a bit of local colour.) That may be the start of panic buying. However, they were all also buying lots of fresh leafy green vegetables, exactly the kind of food that can't be stored long, without a can of beans in sight. And I don't usually go there at one o'clock on a Thursday afternoon. Maybe the same people have been going there at the same time every week and buying loads of tissues for years. Funnily enough, a little under a year ago, before the coronavirus business started, a completely unfounded rumour began circulating online that there was a shortage of toilet paper in Taiwan. That led to panic buying and, as a result, there really was a shortage of toilet paper in Taiwan. Spud (talk) 01:09, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * So, I have a theory on where this started: I listen to twice daily news summary, and a few weeks ago ago, there was a segment, where they were talking about people panic buying toilet paper out of fears that either A. paper for TP was going to be diverted to manufacturing masks, or B. China was shutting down manufacturing and exports, including TP. A paper product industry spokesman assured everyone that A. paper used in TP has no overlap with materials used in masks, and B. +95% of TP was domestically sourced. Any shortages observed were strictly the result of panic buying, but there was plenty of stock and empty stores would be restocked in a day or two. The more detailed article refers to "News of toilet paper shortages in Hong Kong and Singapore..." causing the panic buying in Japan. I think around this point is where it started, because I don't recall hearing about it prior to hearing it in that news report, and I suspect (but can't prove) that it somehow resulted in the panic buying spreading to other countries, possibly based on similar rumors about Chinese imports. The dumbest part of this in the USA is I don't recall hearing any sort of rumors here, just somehow everyone started panic buying TP at once for some fucking reason.--NavigatorBR(Talk) -  02:21, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah we had a mad run (sic) here in New Zealand too - and all the memes. But only in the larger towns and cities - I live in a little valley off to the side of a valley off to the side of Wellington, and hte local supermarket had and has plenty - but pasta, canned beans and spaghetti, bread and of course soap were all hardly any left on the shelves last Saturday - but expect hem to be stocked again by now. Aloysius the Gaul 02:32, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Basque country northern Spain. Shelves were a bit empty last week but was fine the last time I was in - toilet paper included. But only a limited number of people are allowed into each supermarket at a time so people have to queue outside with a distance of about two meters between each one. Those queues can be quite long which is a bit of a disincentive to even go to the supermarket. At the door a nice lady gives you a pair of throw-away gloves to use inside.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:55, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * No queues today. Everything smooth as far as buying stuff goes. Other problems - but not that one!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:52, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

All Work and No Play Makes Jack a Dull Boy
Been shut in for only a few days, and already starting to feel a bit crazy. Anyone else having issues with the lockdown? CoryUsar (talk) 03:44, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's been making me feel pretty depressed. I've been playing some MMORPGs as a time waster to try and cope, but this entire situation is terrifying.  Everyone is going to have to keep holding out until either hard immunity sets in or a vaccine is developed, otherwise this is going to keep happening forever.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 06:14, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The neighbor kids are driving me crazy. Stupid pandemic gives them time away from school and to be loud and annoying. I have been taking walks and I live in the countryside. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 11:53, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * fuck them kids.jpg --47.146.63.87 (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * No, if mass testing is deployed and everyone with the virus is isolated, you can gradually lift restrictions. This is already happening in China/Taiwan/S Korea. This depends of course on competent large-scale government effort so lol we'll see if that happens in the West. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * meh I might be the one without any problems but I'm special, I have a twin sibling and I'm busy playing Sims 4, editing wikis, modding games, and all that crap. 20:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not much here either. I spend way too much most of my time doing computer shit like video editing and writing, also been playing Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 and watching The Andy Griffith Show again, which I haven't done in quite a while (two of my biggest childhood nuggets). Dining rooms are closed but nobody here cares, we still got drive thru, take out, and delivery (Denny's waiving delivery fees until April 12th, can't beat that). Biggest inconvenience for me is that my gym is closed, but even that I don't really care about because: 1, I still got a treadmill and some weights at my house. And 2, I'm just saving gas money driving there anyway. Aaronmichael5 17:00 24 March (UTC)
 * The state government has expanded the social distancing rules in my area. So to stay sane- take walks, study Esperanto, binge watch YouTube, play video games and work at writing a novel. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Question
I wonder, how long have I been registerd here?—Alola, my name is Delibirda! (talk) 09:23, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Go to your Preferences page. Date and time of registration is there. Nowhere Man (talk) 11:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Special:Preferences ta-da! User creation log for your account also shows user creation: Special:Log/Delibirda --47.146.63.87 (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Government stimulus in the US
I keep hearing conflicting information about it but I hope the stimulus checks are given out soon. Anyone have information on the whole thing. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 11:54, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, the bills are still stuck in committee and are yet to be voted in by the Senate. Even so, it would take days for it to be approved by the House due that Nancy Pelosi opposes UBI (or wants it to be means-tested which is not only attrocious, it's political suicide in the current climate).Tuxer (talk) 18:45, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's gonna be hot garbage that solves no problems. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:25, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not supposed to solve problems - it is supposed to make them a bit less for many folk. But hey - thanks for your insightful analysis - you can go back to your stock trading now, figuring out how best to profit from this fuckup. Aloysius the Gaul 21:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Shut the entire fuck up. What an absolutely shitty person you are.  Just because I'm not voting for your mentally damaged segregationist, right wing shill of a democrat, you have the absolute mendacity to call me a profiteer.  You're a goddamn waste of a human being.  Absolute garbage.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 22:47, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * bit thick today, aren't you. I have no idea who you vote for - or why you think that is important.  No - I suggested you are a profiteer because you obviously don't give a shit about ordinary people doing it hard - and that's an attitude Wall St and the other capitalist scum are worried about - so you are in their company.  Don't like it?  Well that's for you to change - in the mean time that's where you sit on the scale of arseholery.  Enjoy. Aloysius the Gaul 00:37, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I've been hearing lately that Biden died years ago and has been replaced by a DNC-cloned body double. A lot of people are saying this, believe me! --47.146.63.87 (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * If you make up an extreme enough conspiracy theory and attribute it to your opponent, you don't have to answer for your own love of killing a million people in Iraq. You get to be right, and more people get to die.  Hooray!  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 00:05, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It;s kinda like Baby Bush saying "Go shopping" after 9/11. nobsFree Roger Stone!'' 23:30, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Ohio is literally under lockdown
You can't even get the mail if you're not cautious. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  13:53, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * My city ain't. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  14:02, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Michigan is under lockdown as well. Fun times. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 14:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Connecticut isn't quite there, but even if it gets there I have essential work so I'll have a valid reason to be out and about. The Blade of the Northern Lights (<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい ) 22:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Gov. Whitmore here in Michigan is not exactly helping the situation- she keeps giving contradictory information and wants to tax business that are closed extra (from what I know). --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:06, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

My Birthday
Today is my 18th birthday! My parents finally can't hold me down! Except... My area is on lock down due to COVID-19. Soooo... I'm kind of an introvert anyways but I still wanna have 'fun' with my friend and my crush so I'm considering breaking the social distancing thing because I'm about to go insane locked up in my house.St.~Emi (talk)St.~Emi
 * stay home. you don't know what your friends and your crush have. if you break social distancing, you risk you and your parents' health. 20:39, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay fair enough. I live in a rural area so I think I'll take a walk because again I think I will quite literally go insane from the stress of being locked up in my house.St.~Emi (talk) 21:07, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Happy Birthday!!!
 * Getting grounded sucks, I was grounded most of the time from the ages of 12 to 18. If it is under ten people, if it is just you and your friends, and you're in a rural area, not going to a crowded area, do it up, you're not exercising the same lack of caution that is being put on the dumbasses that want to all go to the same event or location at once and rub up on everyone there.  As long as you use good judgement, protective measures, trust your friends to do the same, and you all follow the guidelines and don't go nutso grindo, I'd say you're in the clear.  If that's too difficult or stressful for anyone, then they don't need to go, and it's not because they don't want to see you on your birthday.  Happy birthday, either way. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Congratulations! You are now officially an adult and it's horrible! 03:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Borrow from Queen Elizabeth and ave an official birthday at a more convenient date.
 * Set up a (social media site of choice) birthday party group (there must be many people in your situation).
 * And remember people in general - buy yourself a birthday present (and 'relevant festivity/New Year present') - you get exactly what you want and can justify the expense (within reason). Anna Livia (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Welcome to adulthood. Now you get to enjoy paying bills. Welcome to the club. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Stay safe, if social distancing becomes too much, consider getting into online activities: Video games, skype, etc. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Looks like my state is getting baked
https://www.mlive.com/news/2020/03/michigan-is-smoking-more-marijuana-than-any-other-state-during-coronavirus-pandemic-survey-says.html

I have no plans to get high though. Bet plenty of people will get drunk too. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:00, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Fuck pigs
My brother in law is armed, has tried stealing our car multiple times (to get his and my sister's kids from his ma), is a drug dealer, and is trying to break into our house and the pigs are saying we have to let them in. They forced an abusive situation onto my mom with her ex-fiance, and now they're doing the same with my brother in law. Damn them. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  03:50, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * He pulled a gun out on my mom the other day. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  03:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Is your brother in law a minor? The police have no legal ability to force you to keep someone in your home if they are an adult.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 04:05, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * No he's an adult. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  04:13, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you tried going above the police you dealt with? Like asking for a superior?  If he has pulled out a gun then he is guilty of threatening your mom and faces 1-5 years of prison.  Depending on the state he might also face fines of between 1 to 10 thousand dollars.  Have you considered pressuring a prosecutor to press charges?  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I would try to get a secret audio recording. Record all interactions with your brother-in-law as much as possible.  There is legal precedent for using these recordings in court.  If he calls to harass you, record it!  There are phone call recorder apps on the google play store (and I believe iPhone has equivalents).  If you see him approaching then turn on a voice recorder on your phone and put it in your pocket while it is recording to pick up any conversations that occur.  You need evidence if you are going to overcome police incompetence and move someone to press charges.  Right now you have only witness testimony, which is a start.  Interview your mother about the incident and record it.  Save the files to an external drive off of your phone and keep it in a secure area in case your brother in law steals your phone.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 04:45, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Use of phone recordings as evidence without the recordee's knowledge varies from state to state, so make sure that what you do complies with your state's laws if you think the evidence might be used in court. Bongolian (talk) 06:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Well things have turned out okay, he was panicking over COVID-19, and he tried stealing the car to make sure the kids are okay. He wouldn't actually use the gun, he pointed it at my mom's fiance because they were brandishing a knife to kick him and my sister out. We had to let him in turns out because being on the streets after 11:59 PM could've gotten him and my sister killed. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  07:30, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * My mom's crying, she's trying to get a restraining order. The pigs told my brother in law to "kick in the window," and her fiance is being an asshole right now. He pulled a gun on my mom's fiance and they didn't care. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  17:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't it be "fuck my local pigs", then? I'm not sure police in general deserve to be painted with this brush. Sorry if this comes off as nitpicking during the crazy time that you're in, and I do hope someone over there has a change in attitude, whether it be your unstable brother-in-law, the irresponsible police or the insensitive fiance, and also wish strength and fortitude upon your family especially your mom. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 12:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm honestly not sure I can point to a genuinely functional police department in the US. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It sounds like Oxy isn't telling the whole story, leaving out crucial details. Were the police made aware of the (alleged) gun incident?  Did the mother cover it up? CoryUsar (talk) 19:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's hard to get it, cops definitely prioritize, and it's always at their discretion, which is not always in society's best interest. I lived in a duplex and one Halloween, a party got busted.  I heard one voice that I was friends with shout "Everybody, to the roof!" which meant that everyone underage was going to go through my room (the attic), in some dumb plan to crowd the roof, which was where me and my of-age roommates were, well, doing the marijuana things as youths do, so I got through the window, started down the stairs saying "no, no, no, no, no."  He was in an Indiana Jones outfit, took off his hat and said "Wait. It's me."  "I know it's you, just go back downstairs, turn off the music and send people home, it's a party on Halloween in midtown, it's probably a noise complaint, the cops don't care."  And it worked.  Not my only "cops at my door" story, but they usually really probably don't want to do their jobs if just walking around might fix the situation.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

My ma told them, they didn't care. "It's a civil matter." — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  06:04, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Lady, use your phone. Start here but record audio/video, call up the Sheriff's office, call up the courthouse and ask for protection, call up your state legislator, tell them all exactly when all this abuse has happened and when the cops on your route left you in a life-threatening situation.  Record the situations on your phone, even if it's sneaky audio.  I've had a friend have his phone slapped out of his hands by the cops.  Like, if it is time to talk to the manager, Karen memes be damned. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:34, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

It is official- I am an Atheist
And it feels good to say it. I have completely lost my faith in divinity. The seeds of doubt have been planted a while ago and it bloomed. So yup- I am an atheist and I joined the ranks of the Godless. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It comes as a surprise to me that anyone needs to announce that they are among the ungodly. Surely this is the default circumstance? I've been among their number for about 75 years - i.e. since birth. Scream!! (talk) 14:28, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * it shouldn't really surprise you as plenty of folk have been indoctrinated since birth into a mind set/belief system. atheism is not then the default circumstance and represents a significant break with ones thinking/family/community. a personal statement seems a reasonable response to what might have been a significant step in that case. an act of affirmation. one hopes indifference is the worst response rz gets.
 * I remember years ago coming out as gay. I was telling everyone for a bit, before thinking it might not be a good idea in all circumstances. most people didn't need to know nor cared. it felt good saying it though it. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:43, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not official till you have a negabaptism to wipe away the original baptism. Make sure you don't get two, then you're a satanist.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know of any atheists in my area and I have always been around religion in one form or another my entire life i.e 26 years. My circumstances are different from yours so that is why I stated that I am completely atheist here. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:14, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. It's totally unlike anything I've known here in the UK. I can only recall three times that I've been to church - always for weddings. I went to the local methodist 'Sunday School' for about a month when I was eleven(ish) [peer pressure - I fancied a girl] and got kicked out for laughing at some of the things they said. Scream!! (talk) 00:50, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I liked when you were a polytheist, exploring Norse mythology and exploring why that wasn't valid. Welcome to atheism, I figured you'd get here eventually.  As an initiation, let me throw a wrench at you.  You might have to closet tactfully.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:39, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You're an atheist? Next you'll be having thoughts of suicide. nobsFree Roger Stone!'' 23:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Really? How low can you possibly go? Certainly a new low for you. By the way, I always have those thoughts. Nothing to do with atheism. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:17, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Sysop
I was wondering, how long does it usually take before some one becomes a jani... Um, sysop?—Alola, my name is Delibirda! (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Two to four. 17:43, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What - edits, days, dollars contributed to running RW...? Anna Livia (talk) 18:14, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Units of time and/or currency. 18:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It can be anything from nearly immediate (create a new article of reasonably good quality) to years (for sporadic editing), to never. It depends (or should depend) on attracting the attention of Sysops by making quality edits in mainspace. Bongolian (talk) 03:49, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Put it this way, I've seen people sysop others plenty of times with the reason "does not seem insane". So, really, anybody can immediately become a sysop as long as they don't seem like trouble-makers. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It took me two to four, I'd say after about twenty somebody nominated me for moderator, which I was grateful for, but I bowed out of because can't do twenty plus five OR forty minus six, I would expect a BoN to not know the numbers system and think it has to do with sanity, but Bongolian, use the numbered system before this conversation escalates to a code blue. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:08, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Congrats Colorado!
Yesterday, Colorado officially abolished the Death penalty. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-abolishes-death-penalty-n1167231 Aaronmichael5. 16:48 24 March 2020 (UTC).
 * Mostly interested in how Sir Mario Owens ended up there. Not often you get a knight, Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 16:54, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I suspect that he was born a "knight". Bongolian (talk) 17:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Damn You Trump!
The bullshit Trump is pulling is absolutely crazy! And I mean him downplaying COVID-19 is just the most batshit crazy thing I've seen him do. Initially he said it was a hoax and he's still acting like it's just a hoax. I mean shit... even I didn't think he'd stoop this low. I sure hope he loses a great amount of support for this... even though he probably won't... but one can hope.St.~Emi (talk) 21:13, 24 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * I am contractually limited in what I can about the man. Lets just say I couldn't put my emotions into words, and this situation is bringing me to tears.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 22:08, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. To top it off, I got an official looking postcard today from 'President Trump' regarding COVID. It's not believable because it's contrary to everything Real DT says or does or is even capable of saying or doing. Expect to get one in the mail soon. I suspect some deepity state actor mailed these out without official authorization. Bongolian (talk) 03:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Get ready for another 4 years of fun. The way the Democrats screwed the pooch several times they handed Trump the election. Not something I actually want nonetheless. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:51, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The Resistance reaction to Trump. nobsFree Roger Stone!'' 18:14, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Batshit crazy, paranoid Mike "The Health Ranger" Adams has a wonderful new website
https://www.pandemic.news/

Now this is perfect for a RW article! Packed to the brim with bullshit! --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Or at the least an edit to the existing article. Kencolt (talk) 02:58, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm kinda impressed - he seems to at least acknowledge that it's an actual disease and not vaccines/GMOs/5G/HAARP, and he doesn't appear to be hawking a cure-all on the main page. The rest is pure drivel, of course... RoundeTheeHorne (talk) 13:23, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Article worthy or worth expanding a page? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd say that it's at least worth a mention on the other activites part of Adams' page, but not a separate article. --<font color="Purple">Thea <font color="Blue">ce (talk) 09:21, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Are we allowed to move entries from WIGO to other WIGOs
So, are we allowed to move coronoavirus entries that keep getting posted in RationalWiki:What is going on in the world? and move them to the RationalWiki:What is going on with the coronavirus? If yes, is there anything you need to do when making that edit?--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 01:52, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a wiki, so yes. You can.  Leave a commented version of the original item behind on the original wigo so the numbering doesn't get screwed up.  Otherwise feel free to copy the whole thing.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:32, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not happy that purely coronavirus-related stuff is still being added to WIGO World. Currently, of the first five news stories on the page, four are about the coronavirus. And fucking Liberty University and Waffle House for fuck's sake! That's hardly earth shattering world news. Put it in the right place! Spud (talk) 17:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Same feeling . I moved the top couple entries (I left two of them, because they were economic, which per the guidance should be in world, then added an extra reminder in the text to put non-economic coronavirus entries into the correct WIGO.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 21:14, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That's better. The next time someone adds purely-coronavirus related stuff to WIGO World, I'll have a little word with them. Spud (talk) 01:56, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Essential Critical Infrastructure Workers
I am an Essential Critical Infrastructure Worker, I manage a warehouse of under 30 employees and we supply networking equipment globally, but also locally. We ship to hospitals, courthouses, banks, schools, I once got to build up a router for NASA, I made a copy of my work sheet and put it by my desk. Everyone is supposed to take this seriously, my state isn't on lockdown but I'm working on drawing up cards to carry to get these guys a hall pass to get to work. Our Sales and Accounting team is working from home, which is making my life hell, but I figured out how to use our super old copier to scan to PDF, so that's a new skill. But we're all still not making a ton of money, we're not selling this gear at a premium, we ship out orders that, frankly, between labor and packing material lose money. But the CEO maintains we are built on commodity availability, that's the business model and it has been for the ten plus years I've been there. I haven't taken non-holiday days off since my last funeral, I would be fine for 2 months. But these full-time workers gotta get their hours, letting them use their vacation/sick leave is a good incentive to keep them showing up daily, and we run a weekend shift to get caught up. Basically, we are Public Service, but not for groceries, for supplying telecommunications infrastructure. We are a grocery store for networking equipment who also does occasional troubleshooting and we offer repair services to other businesses in our niche. A lot of institutions rely on us and what we dig around for, and a lot of businesses we rely on are out of stock. When I was hired 11 years ago, I was told the business probably wouldn't last 5 years. Unfortunately, the grit that kept the business alive also has us working harder than ever, and now my job also includes keeping my people healthy. UPS, FedEx, and the US Postal Service aren't shutting down either. Google "Wash your hands black paint" everybody, and do it at least 4 times a day. Shower in the mornings, take shorter lunches if it makes you late, take a shorter lunch or work a weekday shift, we can catch up to the order level in a day or two, we can't keep up if everyone is quarantined.
 * Basically, how do I, as an Essential Critical Infrastructure Worker stay home? We can't just hire 10,000 temps and part timers and not train them.  Of course, stay home if you're symptomatic, but I deal in physical hand-on-paper/hand-on-unit/hand-on-box work with my co-workers and our delivery guys, and historically I don't have a lot of time to be off without people freaking out, had to drive 3 hours the day after Christmas because my assistant managers couldn't just take the wheel with a surprise skeleton crew.  It's a tight-knit company, should be like family but people are getting stressed.  Having told them we are a  public works sector, via Information Technology, specifically "Workers supporting the provision of essential global, national and local infrastructure for computing services (incl. cloud computing services), business infrastructure, web-based services, and critical manufacturing" and
 * "Workers supporting communications systems and information technology used by law enforcement, public safety, medical, energy and other critical industries" has somehow calmed these maniacs who want to keep showing up to work. God dammit, I want two weeks off, now I have to contact government and write up cards, give me cancer now, God. I did joke at work that "I'm going to abuse it.  I'm going to go to a grocery store, and if anybody asks me, I'll just be like 'we're sheltering in place, gotta have groceries' and when they say 'your cart is full of liquor' I'll say '...morale is low.  Plus, you think I would buy all this liquor for myself?  That would be insane."  Nobody goes to work drunk, I have a breathalyzer in my car so it's a good faith joke, but I'm worried about my car getting shut off if the breathalyzer company shutters. I can do the 2 hour walk to work, I did it before my license got reinstated, but man. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:45, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Another week down, nobody symptomatic. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Is stress an overreaction to life?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpeaWywKi4

I find it strange how things in Buddhism have a different view than most of the world.Machina (talk) 16:27, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * No, stress is a regular, frequently natural reaction to life. Modern life has difficult problems that evolution had no hope of preparing us for.  "I have to do these taxes or go to jail" has to use the same underlying consequence circuits as "I have to find food or starve" does.  Buddhist style detachment is a fraud completely incompatible with actually being alive.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:35, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, something for you to consider, finding an experience strange is typical of an inexperienced human mind. It is not remarkable.Ariel31459 (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree with that. Finding something strange is the mark of experience not inexperience.Machina (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's simply anything that defies the pattern recognition that human brains are built around. The more experience you have with a pattern repeating, the stranger a deviation will seem.  Ergo experience allows for the sense of strangeness, but enough experience that the deviation is also understood renders it again normal.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't find it strange that you should think so.Ariel31459 (talk) 22:45, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Machina, you're not listening to the answers or answering your own question. Rhetorical questions are literally the worst, they are dishonest questions, not up for discussion.  That's why Betteridge's law is a thing, because suckers want to find out what you know when you ask a rhetorical question.
 * So, my reaction to stress is normally to calm down. It's a learned reaction, because normally with stress, when I was a kid, I would shut down, be speechless, do nothing.  Like one of those fainting goats.  As I got older I got a little better at it.  Sometimes I still shut down under stress.  Last Thursday I was at the gas station and a guy walked in while I was being cashed out, asked "do you guys have fire extinguishers?"  The guy behind the counter, who I recognize is a manager because I used to work as a manager at that chain, said "no, we don't sell fire extinguishers."  Something was way off, the guy just stood there and huffed for about 40 seconds, as soon as my stuff was bagged up he said "Well, my car's on fire" and the manager said "If you need a fire extinguisher, you can use the one right there by the door..." and then the smell of smoke filled the place and yep, right outside the door there was a car billowing black smoke from under the hood.  There was a guy parked right next to his car just signaling that something was wrong, I gave a quick point to get the fuck away from that car, he parked further away, got out of his car, I got in my car, blew my zeroes, and said to myself "I can't do this anymore today, I can't put out any more fires, I don't know how to help here" and drove away.  I feel awful about it, but that fucking question "do you guys have fire extinguishers?"  is misleading to the actual emergency.  I'm thinking the guy's plan was "holy shit, my car is on fire, calm down, let me go into this building and ask them for a fire extinguisher"  I mean, when the answer was "we don't sell fire extinguishers..." it was pretty obvious something was strange.  The guy probably took the opportunity to think "Holy fuck, that didn't work, what do I do now...  I guess admit my car is on fire?"  I mean, in a big way I feel for this guy.  Nobody wants their car to be on fire, and nobody wants to bring that to another person's table.
 * Embarrassed as I am, still went to that gas station the day after, Friday, the manager wouldn't even look at me. I had the Monday manager ask me what exactly I did for a living, and when I told him he said "Oh, ok.  Don't let the extra work get you down."  I interacted with the same manager I booked out on today, he was talking to some pretty young girl who was just hanging out, and a lady who couldn't reach something asked him if he could help her.  He's a fucking hero, but I couldn't figure out how to tell the story, omit the 40 seconds of confusion, and give him the credit he deserves better than having a differently abled lady ask him to reach for something she couldn't get.  Like, stress is still there from what I did, I still wanna apologize for bailing on the situation, but complicating a good thing he had going was once called blocking shine. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm mostly wondering about the Buddhist response about stress being an overreaction to life. It's somewhat condescending to me,but then much of buddhism seems to be that way.Machina (talk) 05:41, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That video is an hour and ten minutes long! Can someone who is more bored with their quarantine than I am give a few sentence summary? Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:24, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Well put the relevant information first, my guy. Long video, the headline is question about Buddhism on a site that really values biology, psychology, atheism, I'm really glad you're reaching out, but nobody knows what you're talking about.  You don't have to share everything about yourself, but you can put relevant information before the question if you want a good answer.  What you're doing, and I expect you aren't doing it on purpose, is as frustrating as Shifting the goalposts  Which is really also annoying to me because I'm asked questions all day, "how do we do this" or "what do we do when this" or "why is this like this?" And I fucking do it, I try to answer those questions.  And you'll catch me all day saying to people in receiving or packing or quality control "yes, that's a better idea, let's do that."  And I have more experience than any of them at their positions, so the absolute necessity of asking questions, I understand.  But the tedium of being asked a question, giving an answer, and then being told the rest of the information is fucking, I can't explain it, people say there are no bad questions, there are bad questions.  Good questions encompass all of the information available, they don't have extra questions about the first question.
 * Again, I don't think you're doing it on purpose and I'm really not trying to be frustrated. But you are the expert on Buddhism, what are you asking?  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:21, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering if we would be so patient of a user determined to talk about another religion.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:04, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Bob, I am very patient with you too. Patience is not a metric to score arguments by, it's a skill.  Patience is a skill. Expecting my patience, like don't abuse it, but yeah, you can expect it, patience a skill.  So what do you mean?Gol Sarnitt (talk)
 * I thank you for your patience, though as I can't recall the last time we interacted I imagine you have not had too much need of it.
 * My point is that we have constant contributions from machina in which he seems to be trying to promote or at least get some discussion going about Buddhism. I am not sure we would be quite so patient with someone who was pushing another religion.
 * I am sorry if my meaning was not initially clear.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

As I have tried to make clear in the past I am not trying to push Buddhism.Machina (talk) 05:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Our of curiosity - of all the saloon bar threads you have started - what percentage do you think did not relate to Buddhism in some way? I think it's close to zero, but if you can show I'm wrong that would be interesting.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:53, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

In light of recent events, my mental health has taken a big hit
I keep having suicidal thoughts and I have vivid images of me killing myself. Depression is so much fun. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * @Rationalzombie94 Is there anything you can do to distract yourself or maybe call for help. I hope you're okay.St.~Emi (talk) 18:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * I'm given to understand you're already in therapy. So that advice is maybe useless.  But keep going, it does help to talk about it with a professional.  Recent events may indeed be pretty grim, but there's no valley without a bottom, and remember your mind plays tricks on you to make things seem worse than they are.  Don't believe its lies.  You're a good dude.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I am managing. Thank you both for your concern. I also know events in 2019 that I do not care to discuss haunt me, lets just say for that one I did wrong but tried to make up for yet others still tossed me under the bus (though they were equally responsible). As for 2019, it relates to the EAS community. I know I will get through it but it is difficult. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't forget, if you're having suicidal thoughts, you can see a professional or call a suicide prevention hotline This page has links: Suicide for the hotlines around the world. Bongolian (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, if you have health care in the US, many providers are expanding video services with doctors in the wake of the COVID pandemic. Bongolian (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I am doing fine right now and I will be okay. Just got to hang in there. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:41, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * When I used to suffer from suicidal thoughts, I found the best thing to do is keep in communication with those around me. Do you have friends you can talk to on discord or call?  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have supportive family who are helping me out. Yesterday I thought that I would be making a nice trip to the hospital where I would be admitted to the psych ward. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, for what it's worth, you were one of the users read that helped me convince myself to join rationalwiki. From what I've seen everyone is a big fan of you here.  I think in this moment you're doing a really good job being aware of your emotions, tracking what is influencing them, and expressing them, and man, that's shit people usually can't do.  You're a madman, a firebrand, and you are very good at identifying large, legitimate problems and pushing for their attention, and I appreciate you for doing it, again and again where most people would just tire out. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Biological basis of religion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT8bLaomvq0

This is an interesting video relating to the subject. The video covers both the biological model of religion and the sociological model of religion. Done by the YouTube channel "ReligionForBreakfast". Worth watching. Mi estas malfelica --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Very cool video. Forgive me, but I've been on an agency binge. I hadn't dug myself out of the old agency definitions, and this video had a lot of good, refreshing points.  Agency, it seems, is either reliant on biology as well as individual intelligence, memory and decision-making, or it's innately and equally bestowed.  I especially liked the "dog barking at the parasol" metaphor, because that's what it feels like (anthromophism).  But if agency has a spectrum that can be described outside of human thinking, and this video is talking about human agency, and humans prescribe agency as "human" or maybe "doggish", and (as I understand it and agree with) only via biology, individual intelligence, memory and decision-making, is agency really a viable measurement?  As in, do we rather consider every human to be of similar enough agency to be equally responsible to their actions, simply because the genetics broadly line up, or do we treat some humans as being less agent?  But we don't do agency that way, and I'm definitely reminded of phrenology in asking a question like that.  Treating other humans as being more or less agent than each other is, like, THE slippery slope, and as the video points out, I'm reminded of phrenology again.  And then, if you start working on a spectrum, even if you have hard limits do you eat the dogs or save the cattle?  Sorry, totally off the video, very good video and actually is a refreshing thing to see, H.A.D.D. is a take I hadn't come across before.  Big ups. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:57, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As for my criticism of the sociological model- there still needs to be a biological basis i.e causation. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:18, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There's a fallacy called "fallacy of the single cause". You're doing that one with that reasoning.  Religion is anything but simple, thousands of conflicting ideologies and perspectives, in thousands of different social contexts, with a billions of biological variations in worshipers.  We've found some personality dimensions with relevance for religions(such as religosity) have some statistical connection to neurophysiology.  But that's not a cause.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Nor does the video actually claim it as a cause. Welcome to the eye of the storm, boys, where disagreement about something we all agree on gets less defined by infighting.  So, quickly, yeah, if we understand basic biology, we can at least agree that every brain is a brain, human or mouse or cricket or chicken or tiger, I hear tigers are cool now. there goes my joke that guns don't kill people, tigers kill people, and all these brains are absolutely firing right now, and making decisions in perpetuity, and maybe that's the hard rub .  I have noticed the younger people at my work say "smooth brain" "big brain" and "galaxy brain"  I have also seen some meme where the head is focused and the idea is small, ends with a galaxy and a bigger idea.  Agency is a fucking hellhole, harder to define every day because memes are the fastest way to learn, and effective, and once humanity gets hold of memes, *sigh* ::shrugs at podium:: Fine.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:16, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Memes. The DNA of the soul. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 04:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Primaries Blues
I'm so glad I live in a state which doesn't vote in the primaries until the end of April, so my opinion in how my political party is governed actually doesn't matter! /s MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I can commiserate on the extremely late primary date(even before the coronavirus related rescheduling), but since I live in a blood red state I suppose vote would have little influence on the national level anyway as far as the Democratic party is concerned(though I am not that invested in this primary's specific outcome anyway). The Primary system is one of many USA institutions that is deeply flawed if you really think about it, but you know there is zero chance of it being reformed in a substantial manner.-Flandres (talk) 03:24, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Both major parties complain about the electoral college until it gets them elected. When I registered as an independent, like, a million years ago in high school (I was toying with the idea of registering as a socialist or non-voter, but was like "nah, that would be a statement and a black-listing) the lady at my high school who was registering me said "This means you won't get to vote in the primaries."
 * Yes. Registering as an independent means you don't get to vote in the primaries.  I mean, this was over a decade ago, I didn't know who Bernie Sanders was.  I'm an old millennial beat up by older millennials who thought Gen-X was the coolest.  I'm still an Independent.  If either party wants my primary vote, they're going to have to open some shit up.  I'm not really pushing for it like I used to, but principles are hard.  I've said it before, the Democractic party wants me to misidentify as a Democract, and that's not a slight on self-identification, but there are some things they have to work out before I do more than vote Democrat.  Sorry, Senator Sanders, I reeeeaally wish you hadn't affiliated to a party that was just gonna stomp on your candidacy.  Hindsight is 20-20, I'm not a time-traveler, but a scary independent vote is what we needed last election.  Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:25, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * isn't it an option if the socdems rip themselfs loose from the Democrats to form a new party (New Democrats of Social Democratic Party)? Then Bernie might still have a chance of becoming president. 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:28F5:8761:DB49:13F8 (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That certainly is an option, but your conclusion that "Bernie might still have a chance of becoming president" because of it is the stupidest thing I've seen posted in the Saloon Bar in several months. Cosmikdebris (talk) 12:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sadly no. The only realistic path to a third party happening is the prior complete disintegration of the democratic party and the genuine belief they can't win anymore. Rapey McCutSocialProgramsFace is a good first(well second after Hillary) step to that.  But I think that's probably also a pipe dream.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 13:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * if coronavirus is still raging by next election, and the competition are tragically struck down, maybe? can you win by default? coronavirus seems like the only thing that might prevent a trump second term, if discourse here is anything to go by AMassiveGay (talk) 13:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It'd take some extreme wrangling for the virus to still be a main problem in november, given the various R0 rates we've seen for it. That'd require delaying spread just enough to maximize total infection rates.  Like the 6 million dead kinda scenario.  And no, it doesn't work that way.  Electoral college decides winner by fiat if a candidate dies, as electors would be freed from their legal obligations to vote for their states' winner.  Given the kind of people who become electors, though, it's almost certain to be Pence/(Some Shithead You've barely heard of) as the winners.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:23, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Dammit Bernie, why can't you get the nomination for once this is killing me, He's the only leftist that ever had a chance that wants to change anything btw I don't think Bernie is perfect but he's better than the rest and no Joe Biden is not a leftist he's center-right and he's not going to change jack he'll probably be like the ClintonsSt.~Emi (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * The more I read about Biden, the more two-faced and scummy he seems. Look up how he fought to remove all bankruptcy protections of consumers against credit card companies (something Elizabeth Warren got her career in politics for opposing).  Look up how he fought for a bill which would prevent courts from ordering schools to stop segregating their African-American populations.  By the standards of countries which aren't America, he is far-right not center-right.  Edit: I think he may be the worst person the democrats could select from the primaries barring maybe Bloomberg.  It is so easy to dig up dirt on the guy and show where he has repeatedly lied to voters and compromised any cause he claimed to have supported.  He will not only lose to Trump, it will be a landslide because Trump will bully him harder than Trump bullied Jeb Bush.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 18:13, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not only would he lose, if he wins he wouldn't even be that good a president-this country is screwed either way.-Flandres (talk) 19:04, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay now Biden seems like a closet racist could anyone give me a source of him doing those things I've gotta rub it in someone's face~please, and thank you. St.~Emi (talk) 19:37, 27 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * bankruptcy, busing (Bonus anti roe-v-wade stuff, which he reiterated as recently as 2015). And even I wouldn't characterize Biden, much as I loathe him, as "far right" by international standards.  He'd be right at home in any mainstream right wing party like the Tories.  He'd be out of place in a UKIP or Rassemblement National.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:44, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * on the busing thing, reading through Wikipedia I find 'Delaware NAACP head Littleton P. Mitchell later said Biden "adequately represented our community for many years, but he quivered that one time on busing."' it also seems that many of what some here would describe as egregious positions were taken that would have benefited his constituents. how is that normally viewed in the us when the national interest and the state you represents interest diverge? it must happen a lot.


 * I must confess I have not followed this primary campaign and nor can I boast much knowledge of biden's long career, but what I see suggests people believe biden to be not just a poorer candidate than sanders, I know enough to be on board with that, but hes such a terrible candidate, such a terrible person, with awfulness on par with trump, if not worse. that I struggle to see. he has had a long career, 40 years worth of decisions to pick over. of course there will be questionable stuff. individually damning. but peoples positions evolve. compromises have to be made for all kinds of reasons. and the world moves on with bad decisions having no effect in the present. whats been the overall direction of his career? going generally with what you think is right? or are his misteps dealbreakers so bad they cant be overlooked. and importantly, whats his positions on what matters today?


 * its a two horse race for president, and if those horses are trump and biden, then for sure its a vote for the least worse option - not exactly an unusual situation. but if for whatever that you cannot vote biden over trump, I would assume a third party or abstain rather than a vote for trump, just what is it about biden that another term for trump is preferable? this is the choice you are stuck with and systemic problems that have made it so are not going away whoever you go for. my view from the uk is probably too far removed. what am I missing? whats the plan? AMassiveGay (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The busing thing was pretty in-step with "liberal" attitudes at the time. Even today to some extent. Lots of white liberals would rather not have black people beaten for trying to vote, but they still don't want their kids going to the same schools. Anyway, yeah, we're probably fucked either way because our ossified political system is coming apart at the seams and many of those who like the status quo would rather the country burn down than allow it to change. At this rate I think it's about 50-50 Trump just announces the election is "postponed" and most people just shrug and get back to trying not to die from COVID/watching sportsball/etc. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 04:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you vote for party committee members? They're the ones who actually "run" the party. And yes, they have tons of influence. They just don't show up on TV all the time. If you've never paid attention to this, nothing personal, but you're kind of part of the problem you're complaining about. (I'm too lazy to research whether they're openly elected everywhere in the U.S.; obviously ignore this if it doesn't apply to you.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 04:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

And now for something that has nothing to do with COVID-19
Why is it that the far-right like to claim that they're campaigning for "free speech" when they also hate freedom of expression? Here's a good example: Charlie Kirk calls himself a free speech warrior, when at the same time he's claimed that freedom of speech shouldn't apply to the left. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow  <font color="Blue">Damn son!  18:09, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * They're grifters that's why. You notice they keep hawking products? 18:18, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * They are fascists. They will say anything that is a catchy to support their side; facts, logic, and consistency be damned.  They stand for nothing but their gut feeling of what they want.  They are selfish and unprincipled and will throw anything they claim to stand for to the wind as soon as someone gives lip service to their cause.  I watched so many people throw aside their principles, people who claimed they would never vote for someone who was divorced or a womanizer were quickly woo'ed by Trump because memes.  They aren't fighting for a cause.  They are just fighting because they want to win and they take nothing seriously in the process.  In short, they are the modern face of evil.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 18:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As the others have said, some of them are grifters with no qualms. And some of them are fascists happy to use the ideals of liberalism as a shield while destroying liberalism.  But there's a third track.  Sensitive babies who cannot handle being told they're wrong.  To imply that someone might be out-and-out wrong in their opinion(rather than that you just "disagree") runs against a certain kind of vision of free speech.  The kind that uses the phrase "marketplace of ideas".  Not being punished or outlawed, which, when that happens has these people hooting and cheering every single time.  But being given public censure by other people for articulating ideas with let's call them critical irrevocable flaws.  They can't abide that shouting counterfactual bullshit or baseless hate into the wind brings negative attention.  They demand respect regardless of whether they deserve it.  And when they lose respect, that's when they feel their rights have been infringed.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:13, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * its been years since ive seen a debate over free speech that doesn't involve racists demanding the right to be racist or shit comedians trying to justify edgy jokes.
 * it always an absolutist idea of free speech where any kind limit for whatever reason means you are living in north korea. its often a myopic american view made by people seemingly unaware that limits on hate speech do actually exist in most liberal democracies and they are largely uncontroversial. theres a laziness to it too. they don't want to even consider how what one says might have an effect of another, why it might have an effect. the very idea that even if you can say what the hell you like whenever you like, doesn't mean you should. but fuck how other might feel. or because no system is without its flaws, any overreaction or heavy handiness shows the impossibility of any kind regulation. again a laziness showing, as any system needs to be adaptive to changing times and changing technology.
 * I particularly loathe the 'you combat bad ideas by shining a light on them'. its like they haven't seen the internet. the deluge on information available is a torrent of literal shit where is not the cream that rises to the top but the shit that rises to the of shit, the most loudest and strident, the most awful gets the spotlight, with even the most fringe nonsense reaching audiences spreading far and wide. theres no room for useful debate when it appears on twitter and comment sections. no room for reasoned opinion and considered rebuttals when the medium is best suited to memes and shouting down all opposition.
 * we've got free speech. that's not the problem. we are drowning in shit, that's the problem. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
 * People tend towards the explanations that make the most sense to them. But if modern physics has taught us anything, its that our intuitive perceptions of the world around us are absolute trash and barely informative on the workings of our surroundings at all.  It takes long and strenuous work to understand the truth, and people can delude themselves easily and fall into echo chambers if they aren't nurtured along the way.  Throwing everyone into a massive viper pit and trusting them to not be poisoned but to win through sheer will alone is ridiculous and, as you pointed out, makes it sound like they haven't even been on the internet before.  MirrorIrorriM (talk) 04:34, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I hate the idea of free speech being used to justify being a complete asswad, too. I've had to deal with bullies in school using "free speech" to justify hurting me and we stuck up for saying it doesn't give them the right to act like fools. When people value free speech, it's assumed that it's meant to help challenge ideas while also presenting new ideas. That's crucial to a functioning society. Bigots, however, seem to take to the twisted conclusion that it means shouting slurs, spreading lies and gossip about vulnerable people, and other forbidden words, or that those things are prices we have to pay for a free speech society. Dispute that, and you'll be told that any sort of limits is, indeed, some slippery slope to North Korea. The "price we have to pay" is an assumption, and it fails to show some ugly results of allowing hate speech and the ugliest forms of discourse to form. It's clear that platforms that tolerate every single kind of speech tend to attract the worst, repel the decent, and radicalize those that stay. That scenario leads to people dying, the election of Trump that leads to more people dying. Is Charlottesville a price worth paying for? I doubt it.
 * AMassiveGay You harp on Americans by implying the free speech warrior phenomenon is unique to them, but I'm definitely confident that it's prevalent in any country that has free speech protections in the first place. 05:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * sorry, I didn't mean to suggest anything I said was unique to America. I just meant the arguments are especially stunted in America because of the first amendment (I might have forgotten to mention that bit). arguments go no where if whatever you reason you point to specific legislation that says no and is next to impossible to amend. at least in other areas you can try stuff out. it also seems like when people outside of America are more to absolute side of things, its the us that is the example or even played in bid for support.
 * to be fair though, im probably over stating the whole us thing. its only really yanks and the occasional brit who works in America that see in these things because that's who make up the majority of folk in the places I dwell on line. its skewed my view somewhat. i do remember the Charlie hebdo business, and that at least was centred in france. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's largely a "thing" in the US because the United States is the only country in the world with de jure and de facto freedom of speech. "Freedom" of speech that does not extend to unpopular speech is not free at all. Politically correct opinions don't need legal protection. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 19:53, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * its not simply 'unpopular speech' though is it. when it is abusive, demeaning, degrading to such a degree that it is harassing, it is intimidation. it is hate speech. it need not threaten violence itself, but it is an act of violence in itself. and it breeds violence and hatred in real life. a blood libel for example is not simply unpopular speech, it has led to pogroms and genocide. there have been acts of terrorism, rising numbers of physical assaults on the grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation all too recently and people cannot even consider the most minor of limitations repeating that mantra 'if it does not extend to unpopular speech is not free at all' never once giving any indication of a real world example that might make it beyond the pale.
 * all of this is aggravated by the fact that now, unlike print media, its disseminated world wide instantly. couple that with 'fake news' and that we've entrusted responsibility of enforcement of whatever slight rules there are to shithead tech corporations and well. look at the world we live in right now. being a racist prick on line seems to be an unassailable right. all our other rights are being diminished though. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:29, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The only laws relating to "free speech" in the U.S. are that people can't be punished by state action merely for the content of their speech. State action is allowed to prevent "likely imminent harm", which is why people can still get in trouble for things like "actionable" threats and attempts to defraud. The First Amendment doesn't mean the cops can't arrest me for yelling through a megaphone in the street at 1 AM, or for saying I'm the President of Nigeria and I'll give you a million dollars if you give me your bank account info. There's also a grey area around private property that's a "public space", but I don't have any right to barge into your living room and give a political speech without your permission. People being dumb, of course, lots of 'muricans invoke "free speech" to mean "I should be able to do and say whatever I want". --47.146.63.87 (talk) 07:08, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * They want freedom of expression for themselves. They believe they should be able to say and do whatever they like, without negative consequences, including criticism from others, while silencing anyone who disagrees. See right wing authoritarian. "Free speech" is just a glittering generality they deploy to try to shut up opposition. Virtually no one says, "I oppose free speech". People who yell "free speech" are usually just trying to present themselves as innocent victims being silenced by Bad Guys. Just like "pro-life" implies anyone who disagrees is "anti-life". It's a cheap appeal to emotion, but unfortunately it works on people who don't like thinking very much and don't like "divisiveness". --47.146.63.8 haytr7 (talk) 07:08, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

"Hate speech" is not a concept with legal validity in the United States. Because the US has freedom of speech. And you're correct in that it's not simply unpopular. Things get defined as hate speech because they're sufficiently politically incorrect. And the political establishment is who decides what that means. Things tend to go rather badly when that sort of legal mechanism exists. Speech is literally not violence, and to conflate the two suggests that you're not very knowledgeable of either. Talking about genocide is not the same thing as committing it. What do you imagine will happen when people are legally prevented from talking about their grievances? History suggests that they're more likely to resort to actions of the sort you blithely equate with speech, but which the people on the receiving end would not. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 09:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * So, I moved your comment, but your fallacy laden rant about how we should all be able to say whatever we want is patently false. And I can prove it with one simple question. Should Freedom of speech cover rape, death, and torture threats? If nay, that proves there can be reasonable limitations on speech. If Yay, you expose just how moronic and despicable you are. Either way I win. 13:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * wasn't going to respond (I think theirs was a direct response to my comment), but hey fuck it, im in a lockdown.


 * I am aware hate speech is not a thing in the us. that's the point. or part of it. the other part is hate speech is a thing in most of Europe. so we don't have to guess or make vague assumptions about what it is or the scope and effects of any laws prohibiting hate speech. hate speech here can be broadly defined as public speech expressing hatred or encouraging violence, usually about particular group. it can include youtube videos. it can include balling out racist slurs across the street. and I can tell you what it isn't. it isn't legally preventing people talking about their grievances. ive never claimed such laws are perfect. I can point to some dubious and heavy handed applications of such laws. I maintain they need regular assessment of scope and usage. they require vigilance. but ive seen nothing that makes me question the worth of such laws in principle. you say history suggests...something. just what does history suggest? enlighten me. with examples. actual relevant evidence.


 * then we get to violence. I say hate speech is a violent act. I say this because it can cause direct harm. emotional harm. psychological harm. hate speech can be used to harass and intimidate. it can demean and degrade. it can make people fear for their lives. make people paranoid. these are things that can result in and/or are the effects of depression, of anxiety, of PTSD. a whole raft of mental health issues as a direct result of hate speech. ergo such speech is violence. a non-physical kind.


 * of the physical kind, it does that too. expressions of hatred, in whatever form it may take being scapegoating, stereotyping, inflammatory lies, tend foster that hatred in other people. it helps to normalise discrimination and prejudice. people are dehumanised. it doesn't take much for this to result in physical violence. its exploited by terrorist groups to radicalise those susceptible. social media even lets them target them directly. it can explode spontaneously. we've seen it in history, and we've seen it in the present. I mentioned the blood libel and its role in pogroms and genocide. look that up now if you are genuinely ignorant. its not simply talking about genocides, it directly inspired them. the murder of jo cox is another recent example. showing just how a mixture of lies and inflammatory language, of newspapers and politicians, aided and abetted by tech companies manipulated peoples fears and stoked hate and weaponised it on social media created the conditions for what happened. helped the growth in extremist groups and racist violence then denied any responsibility at all.


 * i could be wrong though. maybe I am unaware of the Orwellian nightmare that asking people to not be awful pricks all the fucking time truly is. enlighten me. or maybe it really is just racists wanting to be racist. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:07, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * this is not just about free speech either, hate speech or otherwise. when you look at the slow progress of the response to climate change, of vaccine denialists, of denialists in general, conspiracy theorists in general, internet racists, extremist groups of all kind. they all use the same tactics of lies and exaggeration, fake news, dubious interpretations of dubious facts and figures, the shouting down and harassment of any desenter, all via communities that reinforce and shield their own bullshit from anything that might burst their bubble whether by happenstance or design, it all comes together to produce the erosion of trust and credibility in the news and in political institutions, and in the courts. it has seen the rise in populism everywhere, its seen trump, its seen Brexit and its made it so much more difficult to resist. its an assault on democracy almost, and sounds very conspiratorial to say its only really corporations of varying sorts that are doing well out all this, and they have a hand in all it to a varying degree. happenstance or design, I couldn't tell you. just they pay fuck all tax, with less and less regs to impede profit. could also be there is less over sight when things are collapsing favouring big corporations, while the internet has just enabled and magnified our own self destructive tendencies when free from restraint. too many drugs and you od and die. get too leary down the pub and you get glassed. cant stop relentlessly spewing complete arse about utter bullshit you kinda half remember maybe you dreamed,  causes the collapse of civilisation. smoke meth people. its good for you. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The right wing freedom of speech brigade that thinks not being able to broadcast their views at any time and on any platform imaginable equates to censorship is just as frequent elsewhere, as seen, for instance, with the Danish Trykkefrihedsselskabet, which got a huge boost from the 2005 Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons crisis. That clusterfuck basically legitimised Trykkefrihedsselskabet for a time as “defenders of a free press”, until their rampant Islamophobia became too obvious to ignore (when the dust settled and more people started to look at what Trykkefrihedsselskabet actually published).


 * In Denmark, those waving the “freedom of expression” banner the most are very similar to those in the US. And their demands for “absolute freedom of expression” turn out to be exactly as hypocritically circumscribed as their US counterparts’ (it turns out that they want unlimited access to broadcast their own views, but are far less enamoured of others with ideas opposed to theirs getting the same unlimited scope for expression). This is basically a specific case of the general right wing tendency to fall back on persecution complexes whenever their dominance of a given medium or discourse is not overwhelming. ScepticWombat (talk) 00:35, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * “Either way I win.” It doesn’t break down like that. The pertinent issue is mostly whether the threat is credible or not. If not, there’s no problem. If you can’t deal with verbal abuse from someone on XBox Live, that’s on you. If the threat is credible, there is something beyond the speech itself at play. A bomb threat, for example, prompts a police response, and wasting police time like that is typically a crime itself independently of the particular cause. A personal, direct threat of violence is typically to compel some action in a way whose illegality is already covered by other laws (e.g. mugging), and even if it isn’t, brandishing weapons is itself typically a crime. And, of course, there are plenty of legitimate uses of threats that are obviously fine (Stop or I’ll shoot!).
 * “it isn't legally preventing people talking about their grievances” https://www.dw.com/en/online-anti-refugee-posts-lead-to-offline-visits-by-dutch-police/a-19005888 https://www.thelocal.dk/20160201/danish-high-court-upholds-ex-mps-racism-conviction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect Governments throughout Europe have been using hate speech and related laws to suppress criticism of government policies.
 * “just what does history suggest?” That revolutions, civil wars, and other violent things happen when a significant part of the population feels shut out of the political process and therefore unable to address things that they consider to be problems. The Declaration of Independence contains a laundry list of such grievances, and the establishment of freedom of speech and democracy in the United States was intended largely to make sure that such a situation does not occur again. European countries are nominally democracies (though many leaders are chosen by parties rather than direct votes), so that’s a point in their favor, but that is not itself sufficient. Weimar Germany was nominally a democracy too, and much of Hitler’s rise to power was during bans on the Nazi party, various organizations like the SA and SS, and/or a personal ban on Hitler speaking publicly. But people still had grievances. The Treaty of Versailles was devastating to Germany, and during the Great Depression, poor behavior by bankers negatively impacted pretty much everyone. Meanwhile, there had been a failed Communist revolution, and there were continued pushes by Communists to gain control of the legislature and other institutions. With the Holodomor famine going on nearby and both capitalist institutions and Communism having little credibility in many people’s minds, fascism came to look rather appealing. And so fifty-some million people died. Reactionary movements are growing in Europe now as a response to mass migration and other developments, and if their proponents cannot be persuaded in open discussion to change their minds, they will not be persuaded by legal fiat. Instead, they will be driven underground where they will organize out of the public’s view. Things have played out like this everywhere through all of human history, and we’ve enjoyed something of a respite from it because a few societies realized the value of freedom of speech in resolving issues peacefully, but now that generations have grown up in that environment, many people have forgotten why it was established.
 * “I say hate speech is a violent act” And you are literally wrong according to the dictionary and legal definitions of the relevant words (hint: there is no such thing as non-physical violence). Words are not like bullets. It doesn’t matter to bullets who you are - getting shot will physically damage your body. Words are different. Any negative effects they have on a person are because of that person’s own reactions to them, and different people respond differently. Not everyone is a Stoic, but children used to be taught the difference between sticks, stones, and words in order to prepare them for life in a world that doesn’t always cater to their emotional frailties. Better to not be frail, or so the idea went. And to your use of the phrasing “hate speech can make people fear…”. Well no, it literally can’t, but that’s the phrasing commonly used in English to express people’s emotional reactions to stimuli. The difference between idioms and reality is important to keep in mind. And idioms vary by language. French, for example, tends to use the phrasing “I make myself…” when discussing emotional reactions to stimuli. If a person gets PTSD as a result of being spoken to, there is a deficiency with that person's emotional development.
 * “it doesn't take much for this to result in physical violence” And yet it is not the physical violence itself. And if it really doesn’t take much to progress to physical violence, there is probably an underlying problem that has gone unresolved for a long time. Why do you suppose that such problems have not been addressed peacefully?
 * “look that up now if you are genuinely ignorant” Blood libel is an accusation of criminal actions. It is dealt with by investigation, not by preventing people from making accusations. Jews are humans after all, and are capable of doing bad things. If Jeffry Dahmer were Jewish, would you consider the accusations against him to be blood libel?
 * “maybe I am unaware of the Orwellian nightmare that asking people to not be awful pricks all the fucking time truly is.” https://www.hoover.org/research/sordid-origin-hate-speech-laws As it happens, “hate speech” and related restrictions on speech were originally pushed in international declarations by the Soviet Union and other Communist countries in order to give a veneer of credibility for silencing dissidents. Today, they’re being pushed by theocratic governments for the same purpose. When there are laws that criminalize “being awful pricks”, the people who decide what that means tend to use that mechanism to serve their own interests. You might consider looking up what the world “liberal” used to mean.
 * “it all comes together to produce the erosion of trust and credibility in the news and in political institutions, and in the courts.” And the creation of a Ministry of Truth that legally enforces what may be discussed would not fix that.
 * “its an assault on democracy almost, and sounds very conspiratorial” Here you have a part of the problem. Democracies are great when they work, but to work they need a rather high level of cultural development. Education, social trust, shared values, that sort of thing. Why do you suppose all those things have been degraded in the West over the last several decades? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 01:02, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh my, you want to hold up the late as an example of the chilling effect? The guy who spewed racist bigotry for decades and did not cease either before or after these convictions and represented The Danish People's Party, which hasn’t stopped with similar (though slightly more veiled) propaganda either? It’s so weird that all those right wingers handwringing about the potential threat to freedom of speech have been and are plastered all over the media landscape. That’s why it’s a persecution complex: Right wingers whose prime claim to fame is their racist bigotry, which is what got them publicity in the first place (‘cause it’s good, sensationalist conflict material, aka clickbait), using the media to complain about the threat of the media not covering their racist bigotry...


 * The Danish People’s Party as a whole has continued with this claim of being mistreated politically incorrect underdogs, even while they were the second largest political party in the Danish Parliament (and the largest on the right) and its founder and former leader (who was convicted of racism, just like Camre, with just as little practical effect, btw, other than others subsequently being able to call her a racist without ever risking libel) held the office of Speaker (the most prestigious non cabinet position and one seen as embodying the Parliament). Mind you, she proved wholly unsuitable for this latter position, lacking the kind of decorum and gravitas expected of such an elder statesman, being unable to shed her petty, vindictive partisan squabbling.


 * Oh, and while we’re on the subject of the DPP and the lack of chilling effects, guess who managed to arrange for Trykkefrihedsselskabet to award its 2019 “freedom of speech” award to effin’ Tommy Robinson in the hall of the former Danish upper chamber? Yup, in the very building of the Danish Parliament; very chilling indeed... ScepticWombat (talk) 02:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I didn’t reference Camre for a chilling effect, I referenced him for facing legal punishment for political speech. The chilling effect comes in when normal people who may have similar concerns (and don’t want a similar fine) consider that legal penalty in conducting their own speech. And a point of curiosity: Do you think that Jews and homosexuals should be legally allowed to express concerns about the Islamization of Europe? How about people of other demographics?
 * “The Danish People’s Party as a whole has continued with this claim of being mistreated… even while they were the second largest political party” Those issues are orthogonal. When the National Socialist German Worker’s Party was the second largest party in the Reichstag, their SA and SS organizations were banned throughout Germany. Schadenfreudic appreciation of irony notwithstanding, I’m not too keen to see that part of history repeating. How about you? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 02:54, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Wolfenstein
So I impulsively got Wolfenstein II and Youngblood for the switch I haven't heard great things about Youngblood But idk it's Wolfenstein thought I'd check it out for myself So how are the two games for the switch if anyone would like to give their opinion~please, and thank you

PS they are currently downloading and I'm surprised Wolfenstein has a page on Ratwiki but not DOOM St.~Emi (talk) 18:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * There is nothing wrong with Wolfenstein, and to be honest, I like killing guys who killed my ancestors. The problem with the original game, however, was that it was too violent for the conservative mommies to handle, so they complained. Wolfenstien II: The New Colossus actually had a strange time to release due to the rise of Trump and the alt-right. As for Youngblood, it's kinda buggy, but still good. That's all you need to know. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  18:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

@Jeh2ow I've played the 2nd one on Ps4... But then got rid of it because I needed the money at the time it was a pretty great game and potentially my favorite modern shooter If it pisses off the alt-right and neo-nazis its a-okay with me I just wanted to know how it ran on the nintendo switch  St.~Emi (talk) 18:54, 27 March 2020 (UTC)St.~Emi
 * What is more patriotic than kicking Nazi ass? I did play Zombie Army Trilogy for the PS4 and it was great except for the confusing save system. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:48, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I played the demo for Wolfenstein 3D constantly as a kid. They actually ported it to GBA, and I got pretty far before, as far as I can figure, probably letting it drop out of the car at a rest stop or losing the cartridge deep in my seat. Never completed Wolfenstein 3D.  I got DOOM and DOOM 2 on the xbox marketplace, and I was blown away at how much easier and not-scary it was than when I was like, 7.  I'm kinda on the fence about buying Trials of Mana, I played Secret of Mana and figured out you're supposed to play as the caster, hit that wheel constantly.  Trials has a less familiar system, and I'm supposed to pick 3 of 6 characters that I am supposed to care about.  It's not SNES, I have a million other games to play, and I don't know what I'm supposed to do now with the backstory of 6 different characters, knowing I will have to complete the game twice to see the end of all of them. Gol Sarnitt (talk)
 * So Antifa is patriotic? Huh. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  15:23, 29 March 2020 (UTC)