RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive35

GOP Rebuttal to Obama's TV appearance
Made me laugh. SuspectedReplicant 16:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, so that's where you get senators from! 08:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikiindex
There must be something in the water... 17:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I anon-edited on that site for about a year before creating an account and it was just your average low-traffic wiki with a vaguely useful mission. The last few days have been astonishing. SuspectedReplicant 17:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's mainly Proxima; the insanity of the other admins has only been shown up by her actions. 17:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I must admit that I'm completely unable to understand what the issues are, and I lack the will to work through all the (re-arranged) posts to figure it out.--BobNot Jim 17:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no issues. There was an argument about RW's page that is now moot since it's back up again. Nobody at all has raised any issues about the other sites involved. SuspectedReplicant 18:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So why did the admins delete the entries for some four or five wikis? I asked for an explanation there but not much was forthcoming.--BobNot Jim 18:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That, dear sir, is the big question. If one of the admins would read their damn talk pages and reply then maybe we could move on. Having Lumenos spraying over the site on a regular basis isn't helping either. SuspectedReplicant 18:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Having PC be the only active sysop and Lumenos being a hyperactive editor sure makes for a perfect storm in wiki-land... 22:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * After having read some of his edits a WikiIndex, can I reverse my decision to sysop him here on the grounds, that like CUR, he is completely unsuitable to have any above the most basic editing tools? 23:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Gets my vote. The Luminous Gentleman is generally illiterate and incapable of communicating with Pan troglodytes, let along our species.  However, if he/she/it does nothing wrong here...?  04:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Gets my veto. If they aren't misbehaving here, then what is accomplished to promote them, other than to give them cause to continue their BS outside of our grasp?Lord of the Goons 04:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lumenos has delusions of competence. No RW action should be taken as long as (s)he doesn't affect us directly. 08:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's actions here that count. But getting back to Luminous at Wikiindex - I've never seen anybody create so much chaos under the guise of clarifying things. Perhaps we should leave well alone?--BobNot Jim 09:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've had enough. I'll stick to updating stats, fixing typos, and adding any new wikis I find, which is what I used to do. I'm certainly not responding to his latest leakage on my talk page. SuspectedReplicant 10:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Fuck Max Baucus!!!
Corperatist piece of shit is really pissing me off right now!!!! Need I elaborate?Lord of the Goons 21:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As the only Montanan in the house I hear you. In face Baucus spoke at my graduation and while introducing him, his role in health care reform was mentioned and I have never seen anyone look so pissed (by the way it was one of the worst speeches in history). Our Representative got in a major boating accident recently and ended up in the hospital. I really wish it had been Baucus instead so he could have seen what he is doing. Yorick 22:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC) I wonder if insurance covers taking your head out of your ass?
 * Exactly. If that piece of crap ruins healthcare reform like he is trying to do, I will gladly donate to ANY Republican who opposes him, because at least then I don't have to be fighting the same side I'm (trying to be) on.Lord of the Goons 23:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Obama's speech tomorrow night is going to make history, for better or for worse. 02:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this the guy responsible for the "Baucus plan: No public option, but $3,800 fine for families without health insurance". Eh? How the fuck is that remotely sensible?!? 08:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Won't anyone PLEASE think of the children?
Kinda funny. TheoryOfPractice 22:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I for one appreciate how it focuses on BOTH sides. [[image:smiley.gif]]  22:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Democrats are awesome.. I got that much. Except for the fact that.. oh wait.. wrong place to post that. RandomSock 22:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What Javascap said. Also, this paranoia about parents "indoctrinating" their children is helping no one. 22:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do the liberal books and t-shirts rank higher than their conservative counterparts?--Tabris 02:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the order is less important than usual, it is more point-counterpoint. 02:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * While the Democrat ones are more disturbing, the Republican ones are, as we've come to expect, a bit more hateful. The Why Mommy Is a Democrat is just plain wrong... 08:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it was all quite amusing. Personally I wear a plain white t-shirt and get harangued by all sides. --BobNot Jim 09:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, plain white t-shirts promote atheism. -- 10:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the number 4 one with the kids hiding under the blanket: "not today, gay marriage!" 10:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

EBILUTION!!!!!
(no comment) 03:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Phew, I've never heard of TYT before so it looked like that might have gone onto a crazy-rant for a second (GOD DIDN'D MAKE NO MOLY-COOLS!!!). But he has a point, they have to spend more money to replace them and most wingnuts like to go on about not wasting cash... 08:24, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Ten CC's of wolfsbane, STAT!!!!
If homeopaths ran emergency rooms...TheoryOfPractice 11:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's the third or fourth time that sketch has been posted here... -- 11:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is... but it's still worth watching one more time :) SuspectedReplicant 11:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's footnoted in the homeopathy article, but regardless, the Mitchell and Webb stuff on alt medicine and religion is hilarious. Did you see the Nutritionist one too? "Tell her that there's lots of fat in crisps! It's irrelevant, but at lest it's true." 11:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's good to know that we engage in recycling. 12:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

More scientific proof of creationism
Take a look at this article in The Guardian about an ecosystem that has slowly evolved in isolation inside a defunct volcano for the last 200,00 years. Just more proof that evolution is a crock of shit.Lord of the Goons 00:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And just so I don't ruffle feathers, I was being sarcastic in my support of creationism.Lord of the Goons 00:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice find, and I think we get your sarcasm ;) 02:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I know, I know. I just get paranoid sometimes, cuz not everyone gets my sarcasm all the time, and I was afraid there might be one this time.Lord of the Goons 02:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fuck 'em if they can't get a joke... 03:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * GOONIE, you're a believer?!?!? 11:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean 6000 years, right? Sterile 02:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Privacy question
Okay one CPian linked to their blog from their user page, so under the way we interpret the privacy policy that is okay. However they were also dumb enough to follow their blog from their Facebook profile. I now know their full name and have a picture of them. Is that a naughty or not? I am leaning towards bad, but I did not follow anything other than what they themselves gave us. 11:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If they put it on the internet, they can't expect it to remain private. TheoryOfPractice 11:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * But I still feel a little uncomfortable with it. 11:28, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * as well you should. I'm NOT saying "post it." But there's certainly little "wrong" with essentially moving some links from one part of the tube to another...TheoryOfPractice 11:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Last time I got involved in a privacy debate, things didn't work out so well, so I think I'll stay out of this one... SuspectedReplicant 11:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Clicking links that they themselves have posted really isn't wrong. If you're typing it into Google, doing your own research and assembling cross-referenced info to track them down, that's wrong. Still, of course, don't post it here, we're not interested! :D Now, the difficult one regarding "feeling naughty" I find is that anyone access the Facebook profiles of pretty much most of the kids who use CP because they joined the CP Facebook group, which is publicly listed (although there's probably a private and hidden one too, I reckon) and readily comes up as a related link in the "Conservapedia is the dumbest shit I've read" group. Sometimes it's more difficult to avoid such knowledge than it is gaining such knowledge. 11:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay then seeing as it is just the outside profile. Everyone [redacted]. 11:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So that's the poor man you keep baiting and inducing Shukky's in. I see this becoming a controversial area if it gains notice, so just for the record I'd like to state that I'm against revealing information like this (even though, as Pi said, it is just the outside profile). 12:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He is trying to make his blog look more popular by following it himself, so I kid of lost sympathy for him on that point. I was amused that a middle aged, middle of road looking guy like that would call us "penisbone-stuffed butts". 12:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * At the end of the day, everything you do on the internet is NOT anonymous. If you happen to have found out a fellow RWian's name and picture, then so what? You could point this out to them in a friendly way in case they arn't aware and are worried. Provided you don't start plastering their details across this site the next time you have an argument with then I don't think it's an issue. 12:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please, not another privacy clusterfuck! Even if he did link to it himself, let's just not go there. We should be attacking the message, not the messenger, right? Totnesmartin 12:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)Do you want me to zap the last ten edits to this page? I am kind of leaning that way. 12:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll leave our old friend alone. 12:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a bit of a grey area, since he linked to it himself rather than someone googling likely names, so no need to hide this thread I think - but let's lose the link. Totnesmartin 12:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have deleted it edits already. If anyone wants to see his ugly mug they all know how now. Must say I was a bit disappointed, I always kind of imagined him smaller and scragglier. 12:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyone find it odd that he is facebook friends with PZ Myers? &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 13:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He has a virtual hard-on for Myers, he threw a fit at me when I mentioned he was kicked of his blog for trolling. I think he was heart broken. 13:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not directly related but still worth reading... Slashdot has the news on that Wired writer who was trying to stay hidden. Basically, anybody who thinks they're anonymous on the net is wrong. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 16:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I once tried to track myself down, it was alarmingly easy. 19:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you did know who you were looking for. 08:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but you can narrow it down and make some educated guesses just by taking info that I've let slip about the place. Though it's likely no-one has paid attention to the info required so I'm probably safe. 16:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

A case for healthcare reform?
Andy and his like think this is the way to go? "Me and the passenger both had to get cut out of the car. It was terrible. It was horrible and my whole thought process was 'I can't get in this ambulance because I am not going to be able to afford it. I am not going to be able to go to the emergency room. I mean, I am in a wreck where I almost died and I am worried about getting treatment because I am not going to be able to afford it. Like I am not going to set foot in that ambulance because it is, I think around $11,000 a ride." ... "She tells me that she has thought of trying to live in Britain, or Canada or France. She can't believe that she lives in the richest country in the world, with some of the best medical treatment, but is excluded from it."  12:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe she should call into Glen Beck's radio show and try to tell that story... Someone on another forum tried to convince me (and others) that "competition in the insurance industry will solve this", but that's bullshit, it's quite clear, especially from this that competition in the insurance industry has caused the US to be in this position. If it wasn't for competition and the need to stay profitable and afloat, insurance companies would have no trouble insuring her for those drugs and Big Pharma would have no trouble giving them to her insurance or otherwise. 13:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Said individual mentioned in the previous post has just accused me of condoning murder because I said "yes, stuff like this happens in hospitals all the time" when he presented the case of "Baby Jayden" as conclusive proof that the NHS doesn't work. As well as a few extra rants saying that I was a bleak, stinking, miserable socialist he then goes on to say how "In America (praised be it's name) care isn't denied to anyone!" which is quickly followed "they may be billed for it, but that doesn't matter". I'm going to have to step away from the keyboard, I'm being very restrained with this cock right now... 20:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Barry's speech starts in about 15 minutes. Fox "News" will not be airing it.  23:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They have a giant WATCH LIVE banner on their website. TheoryOfPractice 00:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Did they end up showing it? I probably was just getting liberally deceived...  02:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A couple of years we went on an exotic holiday with my wife's sister and her husband who live in California. The package was organised by a US tour operator who recommended that we take out travel insurance, the cost was $450 each, for two weeks! At that time my UK world-wide annual cover was £90 so I don't think much of the US's competitive advantage in insurance. 10:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that and you'd be a measly foreigner with no right to live in Jesusland at all. Seriously, one of my Yank friends has cropped up on Arsebook saying that the healthcare thing is bad because they'll also cover (illegal) immigrants. It seems to me like "oh look, someone is dying on the street, shall we help them?" "Nah, they're not One Of Us, fuck 'em". Yeah, great way to look civilised there. But really, competition isn't there to give people low prices (this is just a side effect, the real reason is to prevent stagnation and encourage innovation - people who don't innovate and provide better service only have the option to provide cheaper service or go bust) and competition certainly won't deliver low prices when you have it in the insurance industry - it'll provide low prices to people with ZERO chance of claiming, and high prices to people with high chance of claiming. Apply this method to health insurance and BAM! you have an awful lot of people going to get fucked over in the name of business. 15:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

*kick
Stumbledupon this, and I think it has a very strong and compelling point. 16:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Or edit goofy wiki's. :D But you can probably say it's worth it considering some of the alternatives. 19:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Another woo spoof...
I was talking to somebody today about my undying love for all things Zappa-related, and this song came up. I realised that it was in some small way related to what we do here, and it's Frank, so it's obviously cool. TheoryOfPractice 19:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

sometimes I stare at Wikipedia and do not comprehend it
maybe I need more sleep? I understand the concept of outing, privacy on Wikipedia, all that. But what the heck is going on here regarding this? The guy is clearly spamming, and he's posting personal details, but...the personal details are on other public sites from accounts registered back in 2007 and 2002. If she didn't make those accounts, that's a pretty long running frame. If she did make those accounts, it's kind of on her to keep that information private. And if it that's not her, then it's not an outing at all, right? I mean, maybe my logic here is bad. I've been kind of absent-minded lately. However, none of that really blanks my brain as that the guy apparently took a screenshot of her Wikipedia contributions history, put it on imageshack, and then was apparently successful in asking imageshack to take it down. I know image hosting sites will usually yank an image at the drop of a pin, but....why does it need to be taken down at all? Megaten 04:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * We've had a similar situation here where an editor was concerned about RationalWiki revealing her real name (which she registered under) as people might learn that she is an atheist. While at the same time her real-name (allegedly) Wikipedia userpage proudly bosts that she is an atheist. 10:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

9/11 Truth
Someone at my work has become a little obsessed with 9/11 Truth and I was wondering if anyone knew of a site / video which proved all of their arguments are false (like the BBC did with the 7/7 Ripple Effect video)? 10:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Show him this episode of South Park. It's very funny and condemns people who believe in 9/11 conspiracies as "retards."
 * A couple of months ago I looked up a couple of videos on Youtube of the 9/11 attacks and they were just breathtakingly unreal. To think it was conceived by the American government is an incredibly stupid thing to truly believe. 11:52, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A site is probably optimistic, but there are plenty of sites out there that contribute to the overall effect. I'm thinking in particular of 911 Myths, Debunk 9/11 Myths and Gravy's Links page.  The sheer volume of lunacy generated by the 9/11 Truth movement is pretty mind-blowing but it's all been debunked, often in a very clear and structured way. Worm  (t  14:20, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Have we done an AOTW on the truthers? Totnesmartin 21:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I subscribe to the "Bush allowed 9/11 to happen" theory (also believe the same thing for Pearl Harbor). Not sure how much of a retard I am for believing that--Tabris 22:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Popular Mechanics did a great debunking, but i'm too lazy to get the link for you.-- [[Image:Asclepius staff.png|8px]]-PalMD -- 01:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not :) Worm (t  08:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice one, thanks (and on an apt day too). 12:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Perl IDE
I note there are a lot of people here using perl for their bots, and I wondered what IDE you use and if it supports intellisense (including for the imported modules)? I fancy trying my hand a writing a little bot to completely destroy all of RationWiki help out with menial tasks here. 12:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I use python and gedit/kate. Syntax highlighting is all I need. -- Nx  / talk 13:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Never used python. Isn't it just pseudocode indented correctly? 13:50, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah :) I chose python because it seemed like most wp bots are written in python with pywikipediabot, and more importantly there's pyqt and qt-webkit that allows me to make screenshots of websites. -- Nx  / talk 14:12, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Perl programs are usually too small to need a full blown IDE. I use vim or gedit, depending on how I'm feeling. &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 14:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Vi sucks. You can't save with one press of a button. -- Nx  / talk 14:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * People who can't use vi to it's abilities generally agree that it sucks. &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 14:51, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Real programmers use ed. 14:51, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * real programmers use butterflies. -- Nx  / talk 16:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Real programmers set the constants of the universe such that it evolves to contain a disc containing the desired data. 16:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * vi reflects the whole philosophy of early Unix. It's written for techies by techies and, if you find it too difficult, then that's your problem, not ours. Whilst we're on the subject the braces should line up with each other and be two spaces in for each level of indentation. K&R were wrong on that one. Flame on! Bob Soles 14:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Braces should line up, yes. AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE PART OF THE FUCKING BLOCK!!! One gripe about perl... &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 15:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Braces should die. I never liked C-style syntax. It's just a long stream of weird shapes. -- Nx  / talk 16:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Coming from the who uses python. Significant whitespace?!? RUFKM? &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because that was the right tool for the job. I've never used python before writing Capturebot2. Anyway, it's an interesting idea and it works if you indent anyway. -- Nx  / talk 16:54, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is certainly interesting. It's not like I ever write unindented code, but I still don't like it for some reason. Back to the "C-style syntax", I was thinking the other day about how much more symbolic perl code would be if we just had more readily available symbols. &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Any sort of code completion annoys the living shit out of me. I don't even like my IDE adding the closing brace when I type the opening one. It's just not a feature I need, and gets in the way more than anything. Quite frankly, if I can set tabstops at 4 spaces, set breakpoints and preferably not have to use gdb through the command line (though if you give me the option, that'd be nice) I tend to be happy with just about anything. -- 18:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"... pastiche of Right-Wing hobgoblins..."
The words used by Max Blumenthal from The Daily Beast to describe the terms conservatives try to apply to President Obama (secret communist, muslim, terrorist, etc.) during his interview on NPR today. ALSO, probably the most wonderfully turned phrase I have ever heard and something I look forward to using in my American Government course this semester. The Foxhole Atheist 17:43, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I always wondered what the collective term for Right-wing hobgoblins was. Totnesmartin 21:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm intensely bored
And so I'm here tonight, for a guest appearance. Does anything interesting or witty every get posted here? Or is this website just a frivolous perpetuation of internet memes and teenage angst? MarcusCicero 00:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course you're bored. You're on a fucking wiki. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 01:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't feed the troll.
 * Welcome back.  Have  Club Orange and some King crips.  DogP Marmite Patrol 01:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This is only a truck stop. And can that troll who keeps posting don't feed the troll kindly go and fuck his sister in the ass? Cos he's wrecking my buzz. MarcusCicero 01:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Biscuits and gravy. Kan yoo get me sum?  03:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "And can that troll who keeps posting don't feed the troll kindly go and fuck his sister in the ass?" - you forgot "And upload the video here". 12:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Debunkment needed
Okay, I have no idea how to start an argument with this guy. Argument ad populum, ad homs, bandwagon appeal... you name a fallacy, this guy used it. Halp! 04:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Son of a bitch...-- 04:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, I don't even know what to say. This is ridiculous... 05:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You. Are. Going. To. Die. 07:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fuck. Just had my cherry popped. I mean, I'd read about this kind of thing, but never experienced it first hand. 12:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Kick the Right Wing nutjobs where it hurts - in the electoral funding
So this Joe Wilson "You Lie!" bozo shouts his fucking head off like the ignoramus he is, and he's getting spanked for it. Fair enough. He might be some no-hoper irrelevant Republican, but hey - you can fund his Democratic opponent. Wayhay! Who knows? Maybe this Rob Miller guy is even worse, but at least it might help send a message to the gallery of screaming nitwits and Joe Plumbers who compose the Republican Party's 'Debate Wing' these days - some sort of signal that no-one, but no-one, appreciates their hectoring and lies.

NOTE: When I said "send some sort of signal", that errrr....currently amounts to almost $900,000 that have flooded into Wilson's opponent's interweb money storage interweb bank thingy. And we can't even pay for a power strip...DogP Marmite Patrol 06:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Dept of Better Late Than Never
Gordon Brown does one good thing. Bob Soles 11:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bugger-me, an e-petition worked. 12:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Much as I have no problems with anal sex I'll take a pass on the sodomy this time. Bob Soles 12:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

[sic]
Courtney needs to lay off the drugs: "This trust are my employees, but whatthey [sic] are tryong [sic] to do is sickening, and they need to be fired, and repairations [sic] need made." (linky) 12:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Derren Brown: The Events
Anyone else looking forward to this? The first one is tonight, apparently where he's going to predict the National Lottery results... an impressive stunt. He'd done something similar with The Method, which involved just exploiting statistical probabilities (i.e., following over 7000 people and eventually eliminating them down and just broadcasting the one person that had the winning streak), but with the probabilities behind the lottery (13,983,816 combinations, which if you alotted 10 seconds to reading out the numbers, it'd take 4 years in total to read out), that's just not an option. The guy is a master at manipulation and misdirection so maybe it's just a ploy to get people watching and he just says "it's impossible" on screen; he has hinted that his Russian Roulette was just playing the audience. With this guy, however, anything can happen, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. 12:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He's definitely got some interesting stunts but from what I've seen most of them are psychological. I saw David Blaine when he stayed in a box in London a few years ago. That was just weird. 12:23, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The Russian Roulette one was interesting, but after the guy counted from 1-6 at the end, I got the same two numbers Brown did. There was a very slight emphasis on the two numbers involved. SuspectedReplicant 12:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not so much psychological as psychological, magical, illusional (is that even a word?) misdriectional (that definitely isn't a word) and importantly, all of these together without him telling anyone which is which. Hence some of his powers of prediction in the live shows are just using a bit of sleight of hand to sneak in something he wrote after the event (no powers of prediction or manipulating people to choose what he wants necessary). 12:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Watched the lottery thing last night. Odd. He had already written the numbers on a set of balls, which were facing away during the draw. Turned on the telly to watch the draw, and wrote the numbers down. The balls were in full view for the whole period, and after he had written the result down he turned round his set of balls, and got 6/6. Very odd. I can't wait to see how he did it. 07:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the peeps 'round the Internet are suggesting either he did it the same was as with the horse racing and coin tossing, but that's bollocks. Other suggestions are split screens, which are possible, but very difficult to do live with hand held cameras. Well, we'll find out later. 10:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, got it. It is split screen, but the camera is not hand held (linky, watch in HD). The whole intro was prerecorded up until after they show the shot from the camera at the back. They then switch to a live, stationary feed with split screen so someone can add the balls to the rack after they are called (there is a clear 24 seconds after the last ball is drawn before Derren moves over). The "hand held camera wobble" is artificially added. Stare at the ball rack throughout; if it was a large chunky handheld camera then even a slight movement would change the perspective of the ball rack and the wall behind it. Doesn't happen. Also, look at 2:04, the far left ball pops up the rack a little, and ends up higher than it was. This is when they merged the feeds. 13:16, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah it's not camera tricks, that's not Derren's style. Watch his left hand as the numbers are read out.  He has it over his mouth the entirely time and you can clearly see his jaw moving.  He had magnetic numbers in mouth, either he regurgitated them or he puts them in his hand as he takes the pen cap off.  He arranges them in his hand using his tounge as they are read out and swallows the unused ones (he doesn't say a word during the whole read out).  Once the numbers are out he writes them on the board with his right hand, while placing the magnetic numbers on the bottom with his left hand.  He then walks over to the balls, hovers the board over them so the magnets transfer and then turns them around.  Just a theory. Jaxe 13:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It was a little too late for my time-zone but I recorded it and will watch this evening over a couple of bottles of Shiraz. I agree with Jaxe that a straight camera trick would be unlike Derren. Other tricks perhaps but a camera trick is not clever enough. 14:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What was the point of the camera at the back of the room then? They only switched to it once, which I think was an excuse to switch feeds. 15:07, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The second camera maybe for the reveal program where he shows how he did it. Maybe you can see how it works from the 2nd angle.  Jaxe 15:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, the magnetic numbers idea is good, but at no point does he press the back of the board against the balls, so although possible I don't think that's what he did. 15:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, he's a tricky bastard so it's probably simpler than both the "magnetic numbers in his mouth" (not even the Masked Magician is that silly :p) and camera tricks really aren't his style, like stooges, it would defy the point entirely. But still, let's wait and see. 17:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bugger, The Sun agree with me. I therefore completely change my stance. 07:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The explanation
LOL. Very entertaining but we still don't know. The whole Wisdom of Crowds averaging was a nice distraction and probably fools a lot of people but it is weighted towards middle range numbers and by allowing guesses up to 99 then it can include the higher numbers but getting an average of "2" from 24 people is statistically low. 21:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha, just watching the David Blaine "What is magic" programme after DB and he does the same trick with 6 lottery numbers but with a slightly different presentation. 21:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Urgh, so glad I didn't waste my time watching that shit. What a complete load of arse. If he actually could predict the numbers, he'd have got them digitally timestamped by some non-repudiatable authority so he'd actually have proof. Clearly there's some kind of sleight of hand or camera trickery gone on, and the fact that broadcast television would waste our time with this "magician" that makes Paul Daniels look like a complex, interesting and varied performer saddens me. I wonder if there's a broadcast standard which applies to not broadcasting tedious, lying wankers. -- 21:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit torn with Derren Brown. On one hand, I think he spouts a load of pseudo-paranormal bullshit; on the other hand, I have to admit that as a showman he really works.  He quite literally says "I'm just making this up.  This is me lying." then says any old rubbish, followed by "I just made all that up, it's all a lie." and people still believe that he did some 'magic'.  It's quite impressive.  Generally, rationalists and skeptics are not his audience.  He's after the mainstream audience. Worm  (t  23:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Jeeves, that's not the point, of course it's sleight of hand. Derren Brown makes only one claim; that he's a showman. Of course he didn't predict the numbers. As he said at the end, it's "just a trick". All he does is illusion, magic, misdirection, psychology, showmanship and suggestion. The trick and his talent is dressing it up so you can't tell what is what. That said... THE CHEEKY LITTLE FUCKER!! 11:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know, call me old fashioned but I don't find a guy doing one simple trick that any ten year old with a my first magic set (or a my first video editing set and a friend) could do, and then bullshitting about how he did it entertaining. It isn't really a talent, it's a gimmick and a crap one at that. -- 11:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What I find interesting is the way people believe what he says. The fact that a room full of people can unquestioningly accept that they can tap into some inner consciousness to select a random number speaks volumes about the general public's gullibility. 12:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think those would be the people who haven't read Tricks of the Mind, where he just owns up to pretty much everything. But even if you have read it and know it's a trick, you don't really care, as Micheal Caine says at the end of The Prestige "You want to be fooled". 12:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Apple Mac!
My new Apple Macbook has just arrived! And now I have to go to work until 1 in the morning instead of spending the rest of the day setting it up!!! Man I'm enraged but excited!!! 14:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a Macbook, setting it up consists of pressing the on button. 15:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Then wondering why nothing works on it.
 * Mac: "Hey PC, what are you doing?"
 * PC: "Playing a game"
 * Mac: "Which one?"
 * PC: "Any."
 * Mac: "Oh"
 * 15:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * First vi/emacs and now Mac/PC. Two flame wars in consecutive sections. What do you think this is, Slashdot? Bob Soles 15:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As mentioned in one of our articles somewhere, fuck vi/emacs or macs/PCs, real men just type 1s and 0s into a Turing Machine!! 15:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Bah, Turing machines don't have 1s and 0s. Surely you mean real men punch holes in tape with their teeth. -- 18:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we can all agree that emacs blows goats. It'd be nice to have something to agree on... &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Having been tortured with command-line only linux while programming some DFT-based ab initio calculations in a group project (at least I have the experience...), I'm inclined to wholeheartedly agree. Is vi that one that has different modes that you have to flick through. I don't get it though, you have these programs that people go on about, but in my experience, Windows Notepad does it all better and easier anyway (obviously, you can't run Notepad from a command line on linux, but still...). 16:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * vi does have modes. Did Notepad ever evolve to included syntax highlighting or auto-indent? That was the one thing that always amazed me. However, I suppose real programmers don't need syntax highlighting. &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * For the command line, I use nano. Notepad++ can do a lot of things, but it is the epitome of bad ui design. Kate is pretty nice and now it's available on windows too. And yeah, autoindent and syntax highlight are two features that Notepad would need to be more than just a bigger clipboard. -- Nx  / talk 16:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably because Notepad isn't used for programming... well, neither is Windows really. So coders can really have their own little world of compiling and emacs vs vi and "user interface, what the hell is that?" and us normal people can just live on the fruits of their hard labour. 17:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "An infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program." - Linus Torvalds
 * Quick. Send it back now. Before the smug sets in. Get a much better Dell, and then use the change to buy yourself a little cake in congratulations on avoiding the biggest mistake in your life of surrendering to the borg. -- 18:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Building on that, since this is RationalWiki, what are your rational reasons for purchasing a Mac over a PC? 00:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's easy.  There are no rational reasons for buying a crap car, unless you like hot-rodding crap cars. DogP Marmite Patrol 01:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm editing from it now. And my head has retracted even further up my arse. I need it for my uni course. 13:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I shall hereby join the debate by making this post from Emacs. 19:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ben Stein impression
So now that we are all settled in again..........anyone wanna own up to leaving the Ben Stein impression on my voicemail during the down time? Just curious. tmtoulouse 00:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That might have been me :( Or maybe it was Ben?  03:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I presume you have rendered said message and posted on teh interwebs for us to enjoy? 12:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please!! 14:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It was probably just EVP generated by a robocall. 18:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Unexplained Optical Phenomenon
This concerns a bizarre optical phenomenon I witnessed when I was a teenager, about ten years ago. It was about midnight, and the moon was setting over Lake Superior; the water was fairly calm and the sky was clear. The moon's reflection on the waves made the familiar upside-down "V" shape, but the V didn't point at the moon, but 10-15 degrees to the right! It looked like this:

C - /\     /  \     /    \

I've never heard of *anything* like this, and I think I have a pretty decent layman's understanding of optics. I could dismiss it as a dream or false memory, but my dad remembers it too. How could this be possible?


 * If I understand it correctly, then water reflects light in a different manner than say, glass. For example, when you put a pencil behind a glass of water, you get this:

_   ||  __||__   \||  /   ||  |   ||  |   V   | |  |   |___|

and the pencil will appear to be in a different place than it is. Perhaps this is a derivation of that phenomena? -- 00:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Taking your memory at face value, here's a WAG: ASCII art shows the scene from above your head, looking down

C       (moon, far away)

/////////////'//' ////////////'//'/    (long series of parallel waves, moving obliquely to the right) ///////////'//'// //////////'//'/// /////////'//'//// ////////'//'///// --      (shoreline) oo             (observers)

In this scenario the water is not a flat mirror, but a ridged or grooved semi-reflective surface. The faces and tops of the waves may also be more turbulent/foamy than their backs, so the best reflections would be from the relatively smooth backs of the waves. Since the wave troughs are angled to the right, and the backs of the waves are tilted such that they slope up from left to right, the reflected light runs to the right of the moon. I marked the wave trough/back that is at the correct angle to bounce a moonbeam directly to the observers.--Martin Arrowsmith 01:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am impressed by your use of ASCII art to both describe and then explain complex optical phenomena.  I would never attempt such a thing, despite having been brought up to believe no graphics ever would be as good as those on the Commodore 64.   That is all.   DogP Marmite Patrol 01:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What you're describing is pretty much impossible. The reflections need to line up perpendicular with the reflective surface - refraction, as described above should make no difference to surface reflection unless your reflective surface is underwater, in which case you'd see two reflections rather than just one odd one.
 * However, if the surface is slanted (or you're slanted and don't realise it) it won't appear "lined-up". It will be lined up, but you won't think it is because you're at an angle. This is possible if the background and foreground conspire to make an optical illusion where you think "up" is actually slightly to the side. So in your initial diagram, the reality would be that the water level is tilted a little. This sort of thing isn't unheard of, particularly if it's dark you can be very unaware of your surroundings and there are cases where it looks like you're going downhill when you're actually going up hill and vice versa. 08:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I could see the horizon fairly well; we were way up north, away from civilization; the sky was thick with stars and I could see where they were cutting off. And if I was viewing the horizon at an angle, wouldn't the "v" still point towards the moon? It was offset about 10-15 degrees, pointing toward the zenith. Arrowsmith's explanation seems to make the most sense (after mass hallucination, of course, but that was before my party days...)JS Leitch 12:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Is teh ebil guvhernmunts rund-eurth moon projectur phailing!!!1! 12:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Waves don't have different values of reflection on different sides, though. Unless they were really quite intense and the fresnel effect meant that you only observed a reflection on one side. I might try and simulate in with a rendering engine later. 12:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The waves were extemely small - quite unusual for Lake Superior, I remember. Is there any way small, uniform waves could do this? Or is government-projector fail the best explanation? Somebody alert JP Skipper...JS Leitch 13:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This perhaps? I'm not sure what it is exactly. I've looked at pretty much every sun/moon reflection picture on the internet and can't find anything remotely like it. The odds are I doubt you were seeing what you thought you were seeing, and possibly your memory might have exaggerated what was in actuallity a very small effect. 13:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Kind of like that, but a more or less uniform "V" shape, instead of discrete reflections. It's possible my memory exaggerates the degree of offset, but I know it was quite obvious. My dad noticed it first, called me out of the tent, and I noticed it before he told me what to look for. Maybe not 10-15 degrees, but more like 5? Still weird. What's the fresnel effect?JS Leitch 13:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The fresnel effect is just where you get a more intense reflection at a sharper angle to the reflective surface. Hence if you look at a pond you see it reflect as if it were a perfect mirror lying on the ground, but if you raise your head up a bit and try to look directly down, the reflection is much less intense, and if it was perfectly still water you'd be likely to see no reflection and look straight through it. I brought it up because the intensity of reflections will change as the waves roll, some will cause there to be a sharp angle, some less sharp. There's also this one which could look odd if you were at a strange angle. 14:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a bit more like what I remember seeing... but not quite. It was really striking. I'm thinking it was a combination of the effect Martin Arroway described, and my own memory exaggerting what I actually saw. It was a strange night - I've never seen such a large body of water so calm, almost dead. Maybe the strangeness of my surroundings, combined with the late-night eerieness, made the event seem more consequential... I'm gonna have to say this is one of those "I don't have a fuckin' clue" situations. Thanks, by the way, for taking an interest and actually helping, like a good skeptic. I probably would have just flamed me and called me a crazy-ass, false-rememberin', ghost-believin' fool. JS Leitch 15:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Upon closer examination, that picture doesn't show the phenomenon I witnessed; it's just a stretched-out crescent with the bottom cut off. JS Leitch 16:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting dino tidbit
Thought this was pretty interesting, when it comes to the dino-bird link. Ace McWickedModel 500 00:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Weird. I'm sure a decade ago we were all fairly convinced that they were pack hunters, but now people think they hung around in trees and ambushed unwary lumbering browsers? It doesn't seem a terribly natural strategy for an animal of that size. Somehow I have trouble buying this. -- 17:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you have trouble buying into this? Velociraptor was, after all, less than 7 feet long and 2 feet tall. Given their close relationship to birds, and a quick look at the paper, the research seems sound. New ideas are constantly occurring in paleontology. --71.246.96.183 23:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Remind me when I get back...
...to write up Wiley Drake. Totnesmartin 10:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Add this to todo list and leave Martin an orange box? Or just orange box?  18:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And now Uganda
I have been monitoring the situation in Uganada closely because I have a friend out there for the Peace Corp. They sent him there because of its stability...and now the capital city is rioting. They just evacuated him. Is there no hope for Africa? tmtoulouse 13:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * How really sad. However, thanks very much for the information Trent it may be of use to me. 14:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hope for Africa? Not without a shift in paradigm. I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg with regards to plight in Africa. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 15:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. Sadly there are too many "leaders" in Africa hanging to power on for dear life, whilst they bleed their countries' coffers dry. As long as there is such a disparity between the haves and have-nots here, there will be violence - normally by the haves beating the crap out of the have-nots. Closer to home, it's also clear by the way local leaders still suck up to that Mugabe cunt, that there has been no fundamental change in attitude, despite Zuma's claims (then again, given the cloud of corruption hanging over his head, are we surprised?) --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 11:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Paranormaphobia
This article is highly amusing. I particularly liked:

"the Bible and all scripture is paranormally based, and to dismiss it exposes them as " Jesus deniers" and it was Carl Jung who recognized that this is the diseased atheism of pure Stalinism.I have no problem with atheists or communists, but let's not sail under false colours,

Jung described entrenched scepticism as a partial autistic outlook, and a recognised mental illness, now officially ranked alongside fear of flying and part of the Obsessive compulsive disorder range with fear of the unknown and labeled; "paranormaphobia"

tmtoulouse 13:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We're ill, we knew that. But, you'd assume that psychics would be able to see the arson coming... 14:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Educational news sheets are available to all and remember Victor Zammit has offered £ 1000,000 to anyone who can disprove paranormal abilities, sceptics are said to be; "confused and hostile "" Confused, you bet, as we aren't sure how, exactly, we're supposed to prove a negative, or why we would?   17:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)I think what Jung was getting at was the people saying (or shouting) "there's no such thing" without studying the subject thoroughly, or even at all. Taking a good look and then saying "there's no such thing" is perfectly reasonable. The inverse of paranormaphobia - believing anything despite contrary evidence - also applies. This putting up of prize money is a stupid stunt that does nothing to further study of the subject. Totnesmartin 17:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thoroughly disappointed that recent developments in quantum bio etherics were not mentioned. 19:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

If you've got 3 hours to kill
I stumbled across this video which is an interesting mixture of conspiracy theory and interesting facts. Beware the Illuminati! 17:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually learned something from conspiracy nutcases the other day, about the existence of the Georgia Guidestones. Weird stuff. I wish I'd known about them last time I was in Atlanta, I could have gone and had a look at them. They're almost purpose built to scare the living shit out of the NWO crowd. I wonder if that's what they were actually designed to do. -- 20:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Server status widget
By-the-by, I have added a little "server status widget" thing to the tech blog. It should report right away if the server is down. I have also set it up to display total server up time just for fun, and perhaps of a little more practical value it shows the current load on the server so if things are running slow for you check to see if the there is high server load as a possible reason. tmtoulouse 20:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice, thanks for keeping us informed. 23:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * On a related note, editing Template:Archivelinks dpl caused the load average to reach 15... --  Nx  / talk 00:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we think about protecting a few of those mass used templates to protect the site from the more intelligent deviants? tmtoulouse 00:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Any reasonably intelligent deviant is already a sysop here could become a sysop here within six hours of signing up these days, so it won't help much. I'm surprised to hear such totalitarian talk from you, trent! ;) 05:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately some sig templates are almost as bad... I set wgJobRunRate to zero (see last lines of localsettings.php) when I discovered that I'm freezing the wiki, and it immediately became responsive again. We can try setting this value to something lower than 1. Alternatively, we can schedule runJobs.php with cron. More info here: mediawikiwiki:Manual:Job_queue -- Nx  / talk 00:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Image thumbnail sizes
This has been bothering me for some time now: the size of thumbnail images (i.e. ) depends on your settings. You can select values from 120px up to 300px. The default is 180px. However when you add a pixel size to the image, for example 200px, with the intent to increase it a bit, you are overriding this setting and actually making it smaller for those who have selected a value larger than 200px.

There is a way to make images scale relative to the user's preferred thumbnail size: the upright option. It's primarily intended for tall images, and it sets the width to 0.8 times the user's preferred thumbnail size. You can specify any value, even greater than 1.0 to make the image wider. Of course setting the pixel size to something larger than 300px won't make the image smaller than the user's preferred size since 300 is the max, but it is still disregarding the user's choice.

So in general, I suggest we:


 * limit the usage of explicit pixel sizes and respect the user's choice
 * use upright for very tall or very wide images
 * use upright to resize an image relative to the preferred size when image should be larger (e.g. lead image, image with text that should be readable in main article etc.)

For examples, see this -- Nx  / talk 22:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You know that vast swathes of our templates require images being just so many pixels wide, right? -- 22:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he means in articles, really. As far as his first point, I totally agree and have been removing "forced" widths from thumbnails for years, unless they were really important.  However, I think "upright" should be used very sparingly.  23:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * @Jeeves: yes, this is for article images only, with the thumb parameter. Without the thumb parameter, there's no problem, because you can only set a preferred size for thumb images.
 * @Human: I can see how very soon this would turn into a mess, so in general we should use thumb only. However for some images, e.g. where there's text, we should make them big enough so the viewer doesn't have to open the image page. I'm still not 100% sure that using a scaling factor that makes the image readable with the default thumbnail size is better than forcing the width to 300px - we'll have to see in practice. -- Nx  / talk 09:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What's the default when you just use "upright"? 180px wide no matter what prefs are?  That what the clog dancer at CP looks like.  What's the advantage for very wide images?  Making them wider than the default so they aren't too "short"?  18:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, with just upright it's 0.8 times the thumbnail size in your prefs (i.e. it's the same as typing upright=0.8), so with the default it is 180*0.8=144px. The idea is that images take up roughly the same amount of space: a tall image with 180px width would take up more space than a square image with the same width, so upright shrinks it. A wide image would have a smaller footprint at 180px. -- Nx  / talk 18:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect one problem is publicizing it. To be honest, I've heard of px but not upright (despite my interactions with Human and RW in which I learn all my wikicoding), probably in large part because I read about px on Wikipedia.  It will take a while for people to learn it, so I think patience is in order.  Sterile 13:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't know about upright either. I'm not impatient, I just think we should semi-formalize it and promote it on the Help page (right now it's just listed under the "other options you probably don't care about" section). Do we have something resembling a manual of style? -- Nx  / talk 13:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think raising its profile at the help page would be good, but it's not really a big deal. The "closest" we have to a MoS is here, but it doesn't really count since it's not community-sanctioned, I just made it up.  21:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Teabagging Washington DC going on
Apparently, there is a massive teabagging going on at Capitol Mall in Washington DC that Fox Noise is going all gaga over. THerefore, it probably doesn't matter, but it's still funny to watch and listen to those dolts. DO they really still think Obama is akin to Stalin or Castro? Apparently so. 17:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And, wouldn't you know it, they have Glenn Beck commentating on it, and (because it's 9/12) he gets to push We Surround Them and his 9/12 wingnuttery. Who said Saturdays in recovery could be boring? 17:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. Commiserations. 21:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Check out his video, watch and laugh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1HFzw8lF7k&feature=sub

10 cc's of reason, STAT!
I have just read through the entire issue of Answers magazine from 2007 on how to teach creationism in schools. Then, I read an article on how science fiction was invented by godless evolutionists, and how it if filling our culture with atheistic lies. I then went into critical condition. Attempts to regain my health by Force Draining PJR have failed. I need help! -- 01:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It really is your own fault if you are going to knowingly expose yourself to stupid like that. What we need is something similar to those tags people who work with radiation ware that change colour after they have been exposed for the maximum allowable time. On Answers though I notice their journal has had no papers since June 10, exciting field of research they have going there. 01:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm an artist, I didn't really have any reason to start with. The SF one is hilarious, though. --Kels 01:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's always good to read the creationist literature (although some theories say that to be truly balanced and aware it's not enough just to expose yourself to other opinions) but you have to be strong, mentally prepare yourself. It's like difficult exercise; a thorough workout for your ability not to throw things. Catch a VenomFangX video as a warm up, for instance, keep yourself hydrated and remember, you aren't reading 20 pages of creationist literature, you're reading 1 page, 20 times! 10:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Handcuffs help you not to commit crimes after reading creationist lit. Just like watching Glenn Beck--Tabris 19:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fuzzy or metal? -- 19:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The "official" post-mortem on the server crash
I have posted what I am 99 percent certain was the problem over at the tech blog. tmtoulouse 23:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Last Night of the Poms
Well blow me! I'm just watching the annual jingoistic frippery from the Royal Albert Hall and surely cannot be alone in considering the erotic appeal of a female trumpeter. 20:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I used to date a bassoonist. Yes, indeed...  21:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Female 'cello players are teh secksay. TheoryOfPractice 21:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Damn straight. I'm somewhat happy having seen Sir David Attenborough play the floor polisher and get shot by Rory Bremner and Goldie. 21:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What's a Poms? --79.41.235.241 10:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just corrected the title. http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2009/ 10:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Miscorrected - 'twas deliberate. Poms are what the Aussies call the British. 10:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Prisoner of Mother England. 02:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Call me when there is a night of the pr0ns. --79.7.237.179 18:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Onward Christian Soldiers
WTF? 11:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Foxhole Atheist is going to have a fit when he finds out about this... -- 19:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would think this would have an adverse effect on moral.--Tabris 03:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are members of the US Religious-Right who look at Islamic suicide bombers (who blow themselves up on faith) and think "those guys have the right idea!" Basically, brainwash convince their army that there's an afterlife, and they'll be far more ready to die for their country THE LORD. It's quite sick really. There was something a while ago about the government being petitioned to give faith the British Army, so that they'd be more consoled when they die. I was thinking, "fuck you, I want my brother to come back from Iraq alive, not in a box because you told him and his mates they'd live in paradise with a 10ft cock and few hundred virgins". 11:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the film "Jesus Camp?" In one scene a woman expresses exactly that sentiment: "Of course we're using the same tactics as the terrorists, but it's OK. I mean, hello, we have the truth!" JS Leitch 12:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's the one I remember it from. I'd almost completely scrubbed the horror of that film from my mind. 12:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I also liked the part where they made the kids prostrate themselves before a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush... gave me the willies. JS Leitch 13:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Secular believers
I have just watched this video from the BBC's education service about "Secular Believers" which is meant as a classroom teaching aid but also shows some insights into the differences between the UK and the USA. 19:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, BBC's education service, that takes me back. Pretty good video, though. 10:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Near the end now. On the part about American Atheists... hmmmmm... okay. I see that even without God, teh yanks are still religiously religious! 11:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Spiritual is more the term preferred here, since one who doesn't have religion cannot be religious. I have often found it quite intriguing how stubborn Americans are when it comes to faith.  I, myself, hold Wiccan beliefs while, at the same time, consider most of it woo. It's quite an interesting exercise in doublethink. 11:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I need to track down that rant about how saying "I'm spiritual, not religious" is bullshit. I thought it was Maddox but it doesn't appear to be on the "phrases that piss me off" article where I thought it was. This must be the third time in a week that I've wanted to reference it... 12:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, though I don't think it was the great Maddox who said it. Spiritual in lieu of religious is just being too politically correct, in my opinion, so that you don't offend people who don't want to admit that they are religious, especially so-called secularists. 12:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think political correctness is the motivation behind it, although some may go the "oh, I'm open to the possibility of religion" to avoid offense and appease their ways out of conversations that might be a bit awkward. I think the real motivation is more about trying to separate out the "good" aspects of religion and the "bad" aspects. Claiming not to be religious gives the air of individuality (or at least removes any notion that you may be "a sheep" of some kind) while claiming the spiritual aspect allows people to appear deep and complex; "I believe in so much more therefore I'm deeper and more complex because my worldview appears deeper and more complex". 13:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My wife says that she's "spiritual, but not religious". It's a cop-out that basically says I don't believe in god, but I'm not one of those horrible atheists.   14:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think exactly the opposite, that the label is a cop-out for theism, as I argued here. 15:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That may be true for some people; for just about every person in my life, it tends to be the opposite.  16:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say not really to that one... "Theism" specifically refers to the belief in God, gods or the big cajones running the universe. "Spirituality" in the context of "spiritual, not religious" is more along the lines of "I'm not going to go with that God crap, but I still like to believe in ghosts/fairies/souls/psychic-powers/spirit-realms". Often a disbelief in the latter is stated as a per-requisite for atheism (and the BBC video above certainly endorses that view towards the beginning) but I think they're certainly completely different things and I think you can be atheistic while still holding onto notions such as the soul and other things in the "spirituality" camp. It's not particularly a cop-out for theism, explicitly, but perhaps for deism. 16:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, the old slippery-slope of what is a God and what is not; use some people's straw-man definitions of "God" and I am "atheistic." 16:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

North East Passage
This is a couple of days old but still worth reading. I'm sure Schlafly will dismiss it, but the fact that a shipping route blocked for 500 years by ice is now navigable might just make an impression even on his warped thinking. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 09:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * But they're saving a bugger-load of money. Hence, by the law of "Capitalism Trumps All", Global Warming does exist and is a gift from God. 10:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't that more like 5000 years? @500 years, Columbus could have used it to discover Korea and call it India... 19:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair point. I was going from the 1553 date in the article, but you're right - it'll be a lot longer than 500 years ago that the route was last navigable. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 09:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but this guy mattered...
Jim Carroll ("People Who Died"; The Basketball Diaries) is no longer among the living. 04:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah I saw that too. Ace McWickedModel 500 04:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that Norman Borlaug, who died a few days ago mattered far more than all the recent celebrity deaths combined, Michael Jackson included. Secret Squirrel 14:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's the weirdness of society. People who do important stuff are forgotten. 14:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * At least he got a mention on The West Wing. That's real fame. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 14:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The horror, the horror.
Observe the freak of nature. I like the postfix about the two headed snakes attacking themselves too. -- 02:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "...especially as the heads have a tendency to attack each other." Now, I don't want to come across as a sick fuck who endorses bear baiting or cock fighting or feeding Christians to lions... but I have a very morbid curiosity to watch that. 09:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Cookie Monster and 9/11
David Icke's forums have many wonderful loose threads, but surely none looser than this: someone found a Sesame Street book from 1976 and a whole new conspiracy is uncovered. Fifteen pages of comments are there for your delight (or possibly despair). Totnesmartin 15:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's an excellent thread. It starts off as pretty much a troll, but after ten or so pages the wingnuts are out in full force.  20:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As if the "J is for Jihad" song they recorded the following year wasn't a tell-tale sign. Jihad, Jihad, Jihad starts with J 20:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What's funny, of course, is no one points out the obvious - that major landmarks are always the target of fictional attacks and other mayhem. That's why King Kong climbed the Empire State Bldg - it was the tallest, and very recognizable.  So for the decades following their construction, the towers were the target of writers and artists of all stripes.  A few were bound to presage the real attack at some level.  What I'd like to see is a presaging of the OK city bombing, or Columbine.  21:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's just crying out for a "cookie monster did 9/11" meme. -- 21:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. That kind of wingnuttery cannot possibly be made up.  Or can it?  Who knows, who cares.  It doesn't surprise me that it is real. 21:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that, if in the future a giant ape climbs the Empire State Building, we've had it coming? 09:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that this was posted on "David Icke's Official Forums". Look closely, you see two fs. A f looks like a tower with smoke coming out of it. And there's two of them right next to each other. I'm not saying anything, just pointing it out. But if you notice, and this is what I call the "smoking gun", there's no "J" in there; nowhere in "David Icke's Official Forums" can you find the letter J. J is for Jihad, so they're trying to subliminally say to us that there was no Jihad behind the attacks on the World Trade Centre. It was all LIZARD MEN!!!! 09:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have thought, of all the Muppets, Bert would be the one.  14:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. 15:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

No More Dirty Dancing
Patrick Swazye has died. Ace McWickedModel 500 00:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I preferred that "Roadhouse" movie. That was him, right?  00:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You told me Ghost was your favorite because you had a crush on Whoopi Golberg. Ace McWickedModel 500 00:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Did he ever bang that advertising airhead from About Last Night? And if so, was it before or after the boob job? 01:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He was in an episode of MASH too, in which his character discovered he had leukaemia. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 04:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He was good in that one, I think I saw it last week. He hung on to help his buddy survive even though he couldn't give blood. 04:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's the one. There's a very brief article on IMDB. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 05:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, a classic. Mulcahy's actor when asked about M*A*S*H*: "It's about a priest in Korea"...  05:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh now come on, no-one has mentioned his performance in Donny Darko? Both creepy and hilarious! 07:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Creepy, hilarious and many shades of wrong. 09:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And let's not forget his liberal-surfer-hippie character in Point Break! 19:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I have stopped recycling
I am going to put this empty beer can in the dustbin. Feels good. Ace McWickedModel 500 04:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Whyever stop recycling? One can obtain money in exchange for empty beer cans. 05:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * One cannot do so in NZ (Although you used to be able to) and because I dont have the special "recycle bin" because I am too lazy to go steal one from up the road on garbage night. Also, I like feeling naughty. Speaking of which, would you like to join me in a slinky pillow-fight? Ace McWickedModel 500 05:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoa there! Cans being metal, and aluminium at that which is expensive to purify, you actually make a profit recycling cans. Paper recycling is pointless, plastic recycling hardly works but the cans, the cans are good. 08:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, glass is also good. Ace McWickedModel 500 09:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, just checking. But either way, recycling is overrated in the hierarchy of waste management. I recall seeing "recycled chairs" which were more like overpriced artwork made by taking plastic bottles, shredding them, heating and melting them, and then forming them into artsy looking chairs. I was watching the news report on it and thinking "holy crap, between you driving all over the countryside looking for these plastic bottles, washing them out with hot water and detergent, using an industrial shredder to cut them up, heating them to over 600 OC to melt them and releasing all the volatile components into the atmosphere, you've done more environmental damage making one poxy chair that will probably snap in half in 6 months than making an entire three-piece from scratch!" 09:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Glass is good but not particularly economical (heavy to transport, the raw materials are cheap). My town no longer "recycles" glass by selling it, we keep it and crush it to use as aggregate under roadwork.  In other words, doing that is cheaper than buying sand from local pits.  23:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll have to look up the number, but the number of kilowatt-hours to take bauxite to aluminum is enormous, and the amount of fossil fuels burned to make it be is a a lot. It's something like 1-2% of the US energy production per year.  Furthermore, the bauxite has to be mined and shipped further than the recyclables have to processed. Sterile 01:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Dino Adventure Land
Eric Hovind has managed to raise $380,000 to "save" Kent Hovind's Dino Adventure Land after it was forfeited to pay for the structuring charges against his father. Here is an interesting thread on some weird dealings that some might be interested in. tmtoulouse 05:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, looking at the tax exempt status of the donations, can anyone make a complaint to the IRS about this? They are claiming that the donations are tax free and yet the receiving organisation doesn't appear to have tax-exempt status. So they're defrauding the IRS while trying to raise money to pay for the fine they got for defrauding the IRS? Awesome. Are they genuinely thick as fuck or do they think god will just take care of any dodgy situation they get themselves into? 07:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, if they aren't a not for profit doesn't that mean they'll need to pay income tax on donations received? It'd be hilarious if Hovind the younger managed to get himself banged up for tax fraud too. -- 08:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Yes. Your donation is tax deductible to the full extent of the law." Classic weasel phrase.  The IRS doesn't list them as a tax-exempt charity and Creation Science Evangelism isn't a church (which wouldn't be listed) so it appears Eric is indeed trying to pull a fast one. Godspeed 18:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Who will bail out Dr. Dino's backyard next time?--Tabris 23:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Take that Assfly!
(1) that is all. 07:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Evolution is slowly losing support. Ace McWickedModel 500 08:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is further evidence that Britain is becoming a "very liberal place" for the Assfly. 19:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Nintendo releasing woo
Huh, there I was thinking Nintendo were quite rational, then they release this shit. What do you think? 10:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nintendo are nothing if not a great success in marketing. It's not really an issue of "rationality" in the sense you're thinking of. It's more that "there's a market for it, it's a rational no-brainer to exploit this". 10:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Rational can mean several things but in socio-economics it usually means doing what is best for oneself or group. As an industrial enterprise their purpose is to make money (forget all that mission statement stuff) and if people will buy it and they make a profit then it is perfectly rational for them. We, of course, tend to use the term differently, but it has caused arguments in the past. 11:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Today you will sit in front of your TV. Tomorrow same. JS Leitch 11:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nintendo is just adding to its "improvement" of it's users. Kinda reminds me of all that Viedt crap from the Watchmen comic. Instead of making the better machine, build better users.--Tabris 23:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The Men Who Stare At Goats
Just saw the trailer; I'm not sure what to expect. I really should write an article on it, though. I might try when I have more time to waste. 14:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We have one or two vague mentions of it on RW. I think it'll be fun at least, I was wondering exactly how they'd convert the book to a movie. 15:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I bought the book a few years ago. Not bad. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 15:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I must admit that the film looks really good. The book is pretty cool too.  I'm still a bit in two minds about Jon Ronson.  He is a very good journalist, who picks up some great stories (Stanley Kubrick's Boxes and his article on Sylvia Browne for instance) but I can never make up my mind whether he is naive, gullible, disingenuous or simply very open-minded.  Worm  (t  15:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've often wondered how much of it was completely true, but there are other sources, for instance you can get the First Earth Battalion manual here. 16:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The BNP shop
https://excalibur.bnp.org.uk/acatalog/Race_and_Science.html Special. 14:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ugh. 15:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Excalibur?" These people make you feel ashamed to be British. "Patriotism" has become an ugly word because of them. 19:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey I guess this is a good place to start?lol Hello room.
Hi, rationalwiki.com. Just wanted to say hi and get to know this forum a little better never thought signed up. Any new people here like me? &mdash; Unsigned, by: 212.235.107.56 / talk / contribs
 * We're a forum? 17:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dunno if we're like you. Describe your interests. 17:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we be getting the newbie to divulge such personal info so soon? Totnesmartin 17:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems to work for someone at another site. Newbie: Please email me all your personal details, including measurements and sexual preference (please don't, this is a piss-take of someone else). 18:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Want to know us better? Then register and create an ID. Until the end of September they are absolutely free and have no annual renewal charge.  19:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Forum spambot. Do you remember the one that came around not so long ago that completely confused forum terminology and started talking about things that are blatantly impossible on wiki? I think they even tried formatting it with VB code too rather than wiki markup. 19:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably. Still, no harm done. In fact, I finally got rid of this -- Nx  / talk 20:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Swine Flu... (H1N1)
Is an new virus that hasn't been seen before. Therefore it is a new specie, therefore evolution happens. Should someone tell Andy and PJR? 18:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Goddidit. 18:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They would argue that it has just been lying dormant in pigs and mutated within the strict confines of the Flu Virus Baramin to become the current global menace. 18:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Creationists do believe in microevolution, but not macroevolution. It's a convenient getout clause because so-called macroevolution is unlikely to be observed first hand in a lifetime. 18:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They have only accepted microevolution because it would be embarrassing for them to deny it; CMI and similar ilk dislike the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" because it gives a useful dividing line. 19:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's usually presented as "what some scientists call microevolution". I believe the creationist terminology is something like "variation within kind". &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 19:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

ATCHOINK! Gesundheit. --79.24.1.188 19:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's still "the flu". Wake me up when it turns into a frog or grows wings.  19:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What, you mean swine flu doesn't turn people in to pigs, Circe stylee? That's evilution, right? -- 19:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's gonna mutate into R2-D2. Now that would be a surprise. --79.24.1.188 20:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Beep-beep-beep". "That's right R2, I'm off to bed because you're giving me severe lethargy and muscle cramps". 22:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Waaay ahead of you. I brought this up with Philip and he said it hasn't gained information it has lost information. The information that made it specific to birds has been lost meaning its now able to spread to humans. I asked if it lost that information and then gained the capability to spread human to human but not chicken then that would be a gain right. No. Ace McWickedModel 500 00:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude. Mutations can't (with a creationist italicization) create information.  Even the ones that go from A to T to A again.  Loss, loss, loss.  Sterile 00:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

USA! USA! USA!1121leventypwned!
It's been almost 46 years since we assassinated our political leader, and over 41 years since a major political figure was gunned down in public. Subsequent attempts have been thwarted due to USAian supremacy at ubercool supercountryism! Match that, ROW minor western world "powers". 04:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So is that what the big sign saying " [4][1] years since last political turmoil" is all about. 10:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * [[image:wtf.gif]] 11:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

So farewell then..
Keith Floyd, he made cooking interesting and moderate inebriation a fashion statement. He also once cooked up a paper beer-mat and served it to a snooty customer as veal. Excellent! 09:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "On me Clive, on me". Legend. 10:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This was always a classic. What a horrid woman, and yet he humoured her. 10:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I loved Keith Floyd - a man never seen without a glass of wine in his hand.  I have a cookbook of his and almost everything in it is completely impossible to make as I'm not normally able to source the ludicrously rarified ingredients he expects you to have lying around your kitchen.   'Green ham' anyone?   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 16:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

doors.txt
I was looking at the recent changes and saw loads of edits by unregistered users just adding "doors.txt;10;15" into loads of pages. Wondering if this was some kind of exploit I searched for this phrase and found it all over the internets. Am I missing something? 13:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe this is what taggers do when they get a computer. Who knows? The world is full of morons. -- 13:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume it's a malfunctioning spambot. I've seen various similar things before. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 13:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That was my other thought, but you'd think they'd spot it wasn't working quite quickly? Then again, spammers are of quite a low intellect. 13:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you mean, "wasn't working"?  The doors I ordered for my house from Nigeria will be here any day now, and damn good value they were at $500 each, too.   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 16:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Neveruse513 for bureaucrat
I thought he was one. 15:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought he was leaving and never coming back. Totnesmartin 16:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That is correct. I have left to never return again. For anyone who hasn't already caught on, I now declare my reprisal of the Ken/Marcus/Rob "disappearing act" over.&mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 16:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * oh I see. whatevs. No to crat. Totnesmartin 16:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the suggestion is flattering and very much appreciated, but I don't actually do anything. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 16:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What gives you the idea any of the rest of us "do" anything either? Oh, and Yes to kingmaking.  <font color="#00F0A20">DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 16:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I have it instead then? I've no idea what I'm doing, but the bragging rights would be awesome! 17:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's that kind of can-brag attitude we should be rewarding here. It's also that kind of attitude that drove me to leave and never come back. I still miss you all very much and think about you all the time. I wish there was a way to come back, but I fear it's too late. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 17:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sooo, is that a yes then? :) 18:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose: If I took the Wiki with the same level of seriousness as Neveruse513 appears to, I would give as my reason that I am on Neveruse513's "Don't Like" list. 18:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My case was based on the fact that he's been here for a while. 18:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As much as I don't like LX, he's right. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 19:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Then again, Gooniepunk and myself were both cratted last week, and while I can't speak for the Lord o' the Goons, my actual contributions to "real" articles have been minimal AND I've only been here about 5 months. Please don't take my super-secret rights away!!!   20:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, now I feel slighted. I'm glad I left this place. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 20:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, I may have had a bit too much homebrew (mmm, Mexican Cerveza), but this all sounds like gobbledegook to me. Do I get my cratship so I can get fly bitches all up on my dick or what? 22:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Right now, I put myself in the oppose column, since it appears that Neveruse513 no longer wishes to be a contributor here. 22:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Let me clarify my position: I will support Neveruse513 for bureaucrat only if they are not, in fact leaving. Otherwise, I oppose making a bureaucrat out of someone who otherwise will no longer be contributing here. 23:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He is not actually leaving, it is a joke. He is parodying the people who leave and continue to edit. 23:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am suprised we are having this conversation, Phantom usually just crats who ever he feels like. 23:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Support. TheoryOfPractice 22:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to reak the habit. 17:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose Same reason a ListenerX. 23:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. -- 23:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Can't we make him something else? Or just turn him into Bohdanite and have done with the issue?   23:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Crat him! Broccoli 00:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I still say 'crat them, but we can always give them the lateral demotion of "vandal" as a resolution. 00:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support, just because I said so. And 513 was my old house address, and there was a lot of beer drank in that house.   01:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Chart
Handy not-really-a-chart: SUPPORT:5

OPPOSE:9 NEUTRAL:0 It looks like the current decision is that he should not be made a 'crat


 * Before this gets close I'll add my oppose, just because we should never use. Or, alternatively, we could take this to some RW: page and you could all force me to 'crat everyone. Then what?  02:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, that wasn't as funny as I thunk it was when I typoed it. Nevermind... Babies like heroin!  02:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I really think that there are enough crats the only advantage they they have over sysops is user rights, i.e. making trusted new editors sysops. So first of all why make someone a crat; just because of longevity here? RA was a crat (and rather spawned the fashion for handing out cratships like candy) but he wasn't happy because he didn't get thanked or be given goatstars. I don't think that this will get much support but decrat someone who no-longer edits and hand over their rights or give the guy an award for his awesome editing. But at the end of the day is this some sort of mutual admiration society? 06:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lick lick lick, I don't use my 'cratship because everyone else beats me to the 'sopping. Not that I was in a hurry... Question is, since we have no criteria whatsoever for goat 'cratshipness, should we?  We have Trent's "mostly harmless" and RA's rampant demotions as common law on 'sopping, but what are our terms for 'cratship?  Keep in mind, a 'crat can force a server reboot/root rewrite of the wiki if they are malicious. A 'sop can only waste people's time for like ten minutes (of course, that's partly because we have like 40 'crats on 'round the clock...).  08:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

(Shhh, psst - let's make NU513 (what is that, am FDA registered drug?) a crut and not tell anyone - including NU513!) 08:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cratship is also useful for promoting sysops in an emergency - I think CUR's blowout was the last one, wasn't it? It's useful to have somebody around who can do that when it's needed. Also, what happens to the old cratships of departed users like Hojimachong or Yossarian? Totnesmartin 09:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In passing, what happened to Yossy? He and I teamed up well on teh stalinist republic thing PLUS I was always jealous of him picking that name. 18:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's interesting about what should happen to so-called "retired" users with powers. On the one hand, they're not doing much, on the other hand if their accounts are hacked then potential malicious forces can walk in with 'crat powers but back on the other hand that's highly unlikely and they can't do much damage anyway. 10:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't do much, since Trent could just restore a backup of the server, and then decrat an ban said user. A minor annoyace, really.  However, if, like CP, we did not back up data, then it would be a large annoyance.  -- 17:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I might be missing something here, but what can a bureaucrat do that would require us to restore the wiki from a backup? -- Nx  / talk 18:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume that they're thinking of a 'crat removing the rights from the others, not remembering the fact that Trent (and maybe you) can alter user rights in other ways. 18:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My feelings are that making sysops meaningless keeps people from caring about the damage that they might do by being one. CP made sysopship a game.  And, it was akin to chess that was worth playing for the right people.  Sysopships at RW are like musical chairs with one more chair than players.  So, there is no satisfaction in becoming a sysop.  'Crats have moar powerz, but if they were handed out with a little, but not much more, forethought it wouldn't matter either.  In fact I'm going to do one right after this.  18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Crats have very little extra power, basically only userrights. Sure you can go decrat all 46 47 46 bureaucrats, then desysop all >9000 sysops but by the time you're done, either Trent or I would fix it with a single line of sql. --  Nx  / talk 18:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am opposed to any loosening of the bureaucrat demotion process; enabling user rights modification for all and sundry would greatly increase the potential for abuse in that it would enable most users to block others in such a way that they cannot unblock themselves, and our frivolous block-wars have caused enough inconvenience in that regard. 18:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Listener X that the current 'crat demotion process of taking a vote is good enough. However, I do think there should be more lateral move promotions/demotions, like "vandal," which does nothing but add coolness to the user. 22:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to clutter up the user group list with groups that do nothing, that's fine by me. -- Nx  / talk 10:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting giving out crat rights like candy, god no. But the truth is that if someone wants to do a lot of damage, they don't need cratship, there are more dangerous things that can be done with sysop rights. When ToP deleted TWIGO:CP and Jorge deleted WIGO:CP they only needed sysop rights. -- Nx  / talk 23:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Big delete would fix that problem. All rights are pretty lame, I can't remember the last time I needed any of mine. 00:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Having never been a 'crat myself, I'm not sure why someone would want the powerz, as with comes responsibilities. Sterile 01:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is why these rights should be handed out only to those who are capable of handling the responsibilities. Imagine if this had been done in bad faith. 03:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Screw it, let's make everyone a 'crat after three days of lurking. I was one of the first, and baked beans and hamburgers, mashed potatoes and faggots, let's enjoy dinner! 06:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, <font color=#ff0000><U>EDUCATED EVIL</U> <font color=#0000cc>user right are bullshit, everyone be promoted starting with me. 07:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

firefox help
Every time I upgrade firefox, it seems like they change the location I'm supposed to link libflashplayer.so to. Does anyone have firefox 3.5.3 with flash player 10 (x64) running? &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 20:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Locations that don't work:


 * /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins
 * /usr/lib64/browser-plugins (as suggested by Mozilla)
 * /usr/lib64/firefox-3.5.3/plugins
 * /usr/lib64/firefox/plugins
 * /usr/lib64/firefox-addons/plugins
 * /usr/lib/firefox-addons/plugins/ (where my old plugins used to go)
 * ~/.mozilla/firefox-3.5/plugins
 * /usr/lib/xulrunner-addons/plugins/

Gah, fuck it. I'm going back to 3.5.2. Vulnerabilities be damned...I need my youtube. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 21:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * a) $MOZ_PLUGIN_PATH, b) You need the .xpt file too, and c) it has always been ~/.mozilla/plugins for me. -- 21:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I suppose if you're really desperate, find -iname 'libnullplugin.so' / -- 21:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Or upgrade to Netscape Navigator Gold. --79.20.10.114 21:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * IE3 for me. &mdash; Unsigned, by: NotHuman / talk / contribs
 * I disliked Netscape 6 so much I dug out an old download of 4.7 from a backup to keep using, until Mozilla finally ripeneded. 23:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm working on an implementation of lynx that's capable of launching external image viewing and midi playing programs. What with the popularity of Gopher I'm not sure it'll take off, but we'll see. 00:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Not laugh-in any more
So farewell then Henry Gibson part of Dick and Dan's Laugh-In television program. His best line as the parson was "My congregation supports all denominations, but our favorites are twenties and fifties." I really only used to watch it because of the bikini scenes. 11:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also to Mary Travers of "Peter, Paul and Mary" fame. Such a shame to see such great talent leave for good.  12:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yale murder
So when will CP jump all over the murder at Yale and our godless universities? Czolgolz 11:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This has been mentioned before but: We do not do "Ooh, how will CP react this tragedy" it's gloating, unnecessary and extremely bad taste. 11:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * * shinkick* 11:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you saying RW has policies? Czolgolz 17:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Policies? We don't need no stinkin' policies! 18:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Kaputt! Ja ja! --79.40.238.113 20:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, which one of you was it? Broccoli 21:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. But it's attracted bugger all attention. 15:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The only thing my new zen rock garden does is make me angry
I had to get that off my chest. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 (Dictated But Not Read) / Talk / Block 16:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just format it and install Ubuntu on it. --147.122.3.120 17:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

101 evidences for a young age of the earth and universe nominee
101 evidences for a young age of the earth and the universe - - - remember this from a few months ago? Cover story nominee, discuss on the talkpage. 17:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You could have just added this to the chalkboard. 04:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The Importance of Punctuation
I just got this from, of all places, the latest Private Eye. Brilliant. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 17:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Gervais on the Daily Show
I just came home and my brother was watching The Daily Show and they had wp:Ricky Gervais on talking about his new movie (something about lying, I dunno). Anyway, Gervais is an atheist and evolutionist (which he describes hilariously in his shows Animals and Fame) and it was quite funny to watch a British comedian on an American show say - and I quote - "Evolution's true, America!" He won't be very popular over there anymore. 20:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's choir-preaching. I doubt Jon Stewart attracts any creationist viewers. Always fun to see him on though, The Daily Show/Colbert has had a pretty good week. -- 21:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, Stewart pretty much changed the topic just as Ricky was about to go into more depth. And they'd better have a good week after all that time off!  Billy Jeff C. is on tonight, I think.  23:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Mind Cop
Sadly only for the yanks here (unless you live in the UK and can access youtubeproxy.org), but here you go. Extreme class. "Oh man, I'm so high man!". 21:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I followed a link to another clip. - "BREAKING NEWS: Pete Townshend's book still not out". 21:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Computer folk
I figured that there are enough computer literati here to ask this question. Today I was given permission to do whatever I wish (excluding acts of an illegal nature) on the school's cluster. Any suggestions? Yorick 05:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Convert to CP/M. Oh, and load all cupholders with fresh coffee before the reboot. 06:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Where's the fun if you can't do anything illegal on it? How about installing virtual server 2005 on it and then selling off dedicated servers to people? 07:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Mirror RW for the day. (Actually that might have been more help during Trent's recent retreat.) 08:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Permission to quote
I would like to say hello to everyone first.

I am working on a Croatian educational website. (Mostly consisting physics, mathematics and computer science). I was amazed by the fact that there is so much bull out there that people actually believe in so I decided to make a section of the website to debunk some of the more prominent fallacies.

anyway, i really like your definition of astrology: Astrology is the belief that huge balls of rocks, liquids, gases, and nuclear fusion reactions millions and billions of miles away from Earth can affect the financial, sexual, and employment situations of individual carbon-based life forms on one specific planet.

i'm just asking for a permission to qoute this paragraph. --193.198.16.211 09:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No worries, you just need to leave a link back to us. There is stuff about CC-by-SA 3.0, you can read that and see how it applies to you. 10:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, that was mine originally and someone changed it. It used to be "Astrology is the belief that huge balls of a nuclear reaction billions of light years away from Earth can affect the financial, sexual and luck situations of one of millions of species of carbon based life forms on one planet, in one solar solar system, in the entire universe." which I think is better. 10:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I should add if all you're quoting is a couple of sentences, there's no need to follow the creative commons license. That falls under the category of fair use. However, if you want to copy an entire article or major portions thereof, then you would have to apply the creative commons terms, including the attribution. -- 17:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Crundy, I think I'd be the one who changed what you wrote, and I prefer the improved version ;) 18:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I think we're going to have to settle this with a knife fight. Outside NOW!! 19:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Update on the Idiots Convention
I was going to post this on clogs, but it would make a bad WIGO. The Idiots Convention is about to take place in Saint Louis, with a new special guest speaker, Joe the Plumber. Nice to see Mama Schlafly is grouping together all the great conservative thinkers of our time. 11:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A room full of dim bulbs--Tabris 02:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

"A village cannot remake itself to fit the desires of the village idiot."
Frank Schaeffer on Rachel Maddow. Takes no prisoners. TheoryOfPractice 16:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this a dig at Marcus Cicero? 17:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. I heard a lot of, or most of, that on Malloy's radio yesterday.  Great stuff, glad you posted it here, I woulda forgetted.  18:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Having actually followed the link I see the context now. 20:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the village could reorganize itself, it just probably shouldn't.  19:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope some of the Brits around here who think CP does not represent a significant strand of thought in the US watch that because most of what Schaeffer says is completely alien to a European mindset. There just aren't any visible groups of people who go along with all the anti-Christ and end-of-times thing. Having travelled and worked a lot in the US I know that in many places it is a completely different world from what most non-Americans think is "normal" America. I was on vacation in Mexico earlier this year and even in rinky-dink provincial cities the kids are learning about evolution. I visited a museum in Chihuahua which had a lot of local fossils; there were classes of seven-year olds studying there and it was all explained scientifically from an old-Earth evolutionary perspective - and this is place where the population are really strong Catholics. 20:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought the Democratic Unionist Party went in for the Antichrist stuff. 21:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I did think, though, that Schaeffer's point that ignoring the fundies is the best strategy cannot work, though, so long as people like Pat Robertson are billionaires. 21:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Scientists have ignored them for decades, and politicians drop them as soon as they cease to be electorally useful. 21:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The DUP Ian Paisley only used the AntiChrist to lambast the Pope or indeed any Pope. I don't think he was expecting a Rapture. 21:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Paisley was very much certainly an extremist. He often claimed that his theology (The 'Free Presbyterian Church') was reformation theology - yet another instance of presbyterians striving to hark back to reformation ideals and extremism. He makes Schlafly look like a pussy in terms of theology. MarcusCicero 21:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Any of you Aussies or Kiwis...
...going to catch Ry Cooder and Nick Lowe on their tour? TheoryOfPractice 20:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nick Lowe is still going? Is everybody who's still alive coming back? Totnesmartin 21:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. Ace McWickedModel 500 21:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're wrong, Ace: EVERY musician who is still alive is, in fact, coming back. That's because there's an extreme paucity of decent bands nowadays. Culture, like nature, abhors a vacuum. JS Leitch 21:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Everyone except Rick Astley, a fact for which we are all eternally grateful. I saw an advert today for the new coldplay CD, for which some crappy mag (Q I think) described them as the best band around. Brrr, scary. -- 22:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

A surfeit of Browns
Dan Brown, Derren Brown. Gordon Brown. People are all talking about these Browns, and they all irritate me. It's a conspiracy. Or magic, possibly magic. Evil magic. I for one propose burning the lot of them on a fire made from copies of the The Lost Symbol. -- 22:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Armando Iannucci did a funny piece several years ago in one of his BBC2 shows where they set up an exhibition at London's Trocadero called 'Brown World' featuring everything about brown - things which were brown, people named Brown, the Brownies, etc. - and had guides dressed enirely in brown; the whole thing was incredibly dull. They charged the public (tourists mainly) £5 a head to visit it and interviewed them afterwards. Surprisingly many people said how much they enjoyed it and thought it worth the money. Evidently they gave everyone their money back afterwards. Unfortunately I can't find any links to it. 22:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And the Cleveland Browns irritate me. They are an NFL team in the same division as my local club.  22:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Brown World kind of reminds me of the "Boring Postcards" books. Corry 04:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * IIRC, Brownshirts were naughty people. 07:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Aide memoire
Somebody posted a link to a survey about which parts of the US are "birthers". Can anyone jog my memory? It ought to be added to our Obama citizenship denial‎‎ article. 09:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's probably congruous with Jesusland, or at least the Bible Belt. Whoa, hold that snark - I was right! Totnesmartin 09:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks but it's already in our Birther article. 09:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this was the orginal source of the data. 09:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Some more interesting data. Q. Do you believe that America and Africa were once part of the same continent? Dem Yes:51% No:16% Rep Yes:24% No:47%.  09:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

(EC)This? Or this? How about this? Totnesmartin 10:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

RW Dream
I just awoke from a slmuber at 11.30, having got home from work at 3am. I remember a dream... I was in a lecture hall, and a lecturer had a projector plugged into his computer. He had none other than RationalWiki up on the screen, looking at the talkpages. As I joke about people calling me "SuperJosh" in the real world (it doesn't stick as I'm not actually that super) I was surprised no one noticed my comments. How upsetting. Anyhoo, first RationalWiki dream I had. Highly unusual and suggestive that I need a lifestyle change. 11:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lucky you. i've had two CP dreams - one about shopping with TK (?) and one where Karajou was in charge of the trains. There was another dream in which i escaped a situation by following a bluelink hovering in midair. I need to get out more. Totnesmartin 11:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Weird, I had my first RW/CP-related dream last night. I dreamt that Ed was stupid enough to leave a huge hint on what his password was, it was a letter followed by 1234. 11:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I had a dream during my summer holiday about finding myself in the seat next into Aschlafly on the flight to Tokyo and I pretended to be my conservapedian alias, and, and... thats where the dream ends, thank goodness-- 忍者  <font color=#707070>N <font color=#808080> <font color=#858585>I <font color=#909090>N <font color=#A0A0A0>J <font color=#A5A5A5>A <font color=#B0B0B0>A <font color=#B5B5B5>A <font color=#C0C0C0>H <font color=#C5C5C5>! <font color=#D0D0D0>! <font color=#D5D5D5>! <font color=#E0E0E0>! <font color=#E5E5E5>! <font color=#F0F0F0> 11:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I went through a stage when I was having far too many CP-related dreams. But then I was spending far too much time on there and I allowed TK to get under my skin. Luckily now I just have dreams involving Human, Kels, me and 100 litres of custard. --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 12:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmmmm, Custard! 21:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of you and CP, why did I not see this posted here? 12:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting for something more concrete than "a guy at the Boston Globe wrote back and said that as far as he can tell, Schlafly did run against Obama for HLR pres". He's actually quite interested, once I'd pointed out who Schlafly is and what CP has to say about Obama. He said he's going to check with somebody at Harvard to confirm. --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 12:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It would make a good op-ed piece their relationship. Well keep us posted now you are on the cutting edge of journalism and all. 12:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's good news Psy. I'm glad that my suggestion appears to be paying some dividends. 13:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pleased to know it's not just me who's done this RW/CP dream before. Mine was RWians in fancy dress hanging outside Andy's school having a loud drunken protest. No Human, Kels and custard, however. Thank fudge. 19:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I used to have multiple talk page/article edit wars and arguments with HOG in some awful dreams... or was I awake? Hard to remember, it all seems like a dream to me now...  03:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and possibly thanks to this section, I had another one this morning. Something about RationalWiki actually being a large black folder with bits of paper in it and everyone in the world wanting to join. I can't quite remember, I woke up, thought "well, that was weird" and fell asleep again to have another regarding Lord of the Rings. 15:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Aaaaarrr!
About to down a tumbler of Stroh rum in honour of International Talk like a Pirate day. --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 11:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Avast me hearty. Oi'll take a care of that bottle of grog. 12:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I remember reading somewhere that a Daiquiri is essentially the same as grog... 12:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 10/10 to the friend who sms'd me: "Arrr, oi be towin' yer oil tanker back to Somalia!" --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 13:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear fuck no. I can't remember the last time I had Stroh. And that's taking into account that we set fire to half of it. 19:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fah, real grog contains Kerosene, Propylene Glycol, Artificial Sweeteners, Sulphuric Acid. Rum, Acetone, Red Dye No 2, SCUMMTM, Axle Grease, Battery Acid, and/or pepperoni. -- 05:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You forgot the chaser of a quick squirt of brake cleaner... 06:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Metapedia's article about Wikipedia
I'm not gonna provide a linky to the hated Metapedia but this article is hilarious! Written in a mix of flowery pseudo-academic language and mock-Asian "Engrish": ''"But its formal primate now is heavily competed by the accelerated giant Chinese "Baidu-Baike", because from early 2007 Wikipedia's growth is gradually slowered, and now the increasing of this Chinese 'White-Cyclopedia' on the internet is triply faster than Wikipedia's growth." ... "Instead of a serious education in collegial and constructive democracy of professional schools lead by excellent intellectuals and academic experts, these new fanaticized 'Wikipedians' are mostly formed by instant training of a passionate street demagogy in discussion forums lead by half-trained amateurs and controversial mediocrities. Their most aggressive administrators are some arrogant dilettantes violently imposing in Wikipedias their false leftist dogmas and primitive popcult prejudices."'' For a white racialist encyclopedia it sure looks like they need to lay off the hallucinogenic drugs... Secret Squirrel 14:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I never knew 🇰🇪 wrote for Metapedia too. --Psy - C20H25N3OYou know you want to 14:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Operation game
Whose fault was it? 16:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean this? I've forgotten, but it was posted in the heyday of Bugler's run, so maybe the author can be found in the talk wigo cp archives?  The html source is unsigned...  21:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This might be a good starting place... --Sid 20:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Found it: here is where it was introduced to us by user:Composure1. 21:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Someone talk me out of this
For a while now I've been having ideas of taking over the world and being an evil overlord starting up a wiki about Britain and Britishness. Someone please tell me it's a terrible idea that I'd be a complete prat to do so. Totnesmartin 18:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Mmmm. What would be your objective? Who would your audience be? Who would be your contributors?--BobNot Jim 18:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Quick, register pienmashwiki.com so we can sell it to him for millions of quid. -- 18:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What is this pienmash of which you speak? 24.13.203.96 18:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Objective? A place to gather up the disparate online strands of Brit culture/life in one place. Something roughly between the openly edited WP and the moderated H2G2, which would be a better place if it opened itself up more. Audience? people who like reading the Daily Mash or anicecupofteanadasitdown. Contributors would, um, turn up sometime. Totnesmartin 18:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I wish you well. In fact, I'd be prepared to contribute - a bit. But you'd need to have pretty clear ideas before you started out. Perhaps the community here would be prepared to give you blanket permission to copy over the British culture articles which we already have.  :-) --BobNot Jim 18:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume, like most people who want to start their own project, that you want something that's free of the dryness of Wikipedia. So long as the project isn't jumped on by the likes of the BNP, it should be pretty good. Are you sure that nothing similar to it already exists, however? 19:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting the BNP in would ruin it. Having just looked for a similar one, I see wikis for British literature, stamps, muslims and expats - but not one for brits and their doings as a whole, unless it started last week or something. Totnesmartin 19:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The idea is great Totnesmartin, the only problem that I might imagine from my experiences is getting contributors. It seems to me that RW was quite fortunate in getting a ready-made group of like-minded opinionated contributors who were expelled from/left CP after it hit "international" prominence. And that's not an easy trick to duplicate.   On the other hand, it's not that difficult or expensive to initially set up a wiki - so why not go for it. --BobNot Jim 20:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There's whole bunch of Brits right here who might be tempted to help out (as we did with PJR). If not I can ask around at wikipedia, forums and suchlike. First off though, I'll have to shop around for a host I can afford (or a free one I can tolerate). There's no rush. Totnesmartin 23:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As a half brit and a lover of tea I vote yes. Yorick 04:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As a half brit and a lover of tea I vote yes. Yorick 04:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

We are popular all of a sudden
I occasionally look at our most popular pages to see what is people like about us (CP mostly) and have noticed Russell's teapot has had about 2 to 3 thousand page views in the last week or so. Anyone know what is up with that? 12:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ken's clickbot campaign. 13:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We're page 2 of google so it's possibly a well read blog preferring to link here rather than WP. Can't imagine what that could be or where. 19:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've had a look round the blogs and found this cartoon and this forum, neither of which link to us. they're the only recent mentions of Russell's teapot in google blog search. Maybe it's a link going round an email group. Totnesmartin 09:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Help a brother out, maybe
Since we're advertising our really bad ideas today, this weekend I've been working on a five minute hack idea to boost the frankly pathetic amount I earn from google adsense. To wit, the future hithertoyon.com, a cute guide to the UK's public transport network. Basically, I want to be able to have a punter put in any two places in the UK and be told the best way to get from hither to yon by public transport. I'm going to have some cute features like "I have to be there by time X, when do I have to set out?" and stuff like that. Unfortunately, this involves a hell of a lot of very tedious data entry, for which I'm presently doing the Cambridge and district portion thereof. This is fairly easy, since we're a one bus company town. Once I'm done with this, I'll probably do the whole rail network.

However, doing local transport requires some small amount of local knowledge (you have to have a reasonable grasp of which bus stops are near enough to each other to enable walking between them, and how long that will take roughly.) Is anyone interested enough to want to do their local bus network? For a city about the size of Cambridge, with reasonable data online from the stagecoach website, I estimate it'll take me about 8 hours, though that time would come down once I have a stab-google-maps-and-type interface, rather than a enter-raw-data-in-to-a-text-file-in-an-anal-format interface. Plus, I'd be good if you were willing to come back later and update the data set when it got out of date. Help a brother out? -- 19:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Where's this UK place everyone's babbling about anyway? I can't find it on my World map of the USA. --79.20.12.22 19:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * it's in the history section. Totnesmartin 19:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wyoming, in the corner of wheat field. -- 19:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's another name for "Russia". --127․0․0․1 19:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No no no no no. You know, it's that place, where the stuff comes from, 19:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Above 5 comments FTW. -- 20:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. My local transit system has a system exactly like what you describe online. You can put in where you start, where you wanna go, or a landmark like shopping mall, school, transit station, or whatever. Then you can put in either your time of arrival or departure, and select a couple of other options (regular fare, least transfers, etc.) and get a full itinerary including walking instructions to and from the stop. Really handy. And Google Maps has now started listing the stops on their street maps, very handy. --Kels 19:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's actually quite easy to do (though for bus routes of any complexity, it's quite an interesting exercise in dynamic graph building. I may have to use that as an interview question next time I'm feeling evil.) However, most (all?) UK bus companies are living in the dark ages to some extent. We have wifi on some buses, but the fucking website still can't tell you how to get from a to b. Plus, I've encountered the problem as a foreigner, it's almost impossible to know where to go to get info, and when you do find out where to go, it's never joined up info. Honestly, it'd be so much easier with a government monopoly on transport. I can has soviet union? -- 20:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. In the two cities I've lived in (Halifax/Dartmouth and Ottawa), transit in the city has been all one-company, with maybe a few private airport shuttles and the like, run by the municipal government.  Outside of town, it's generally private concerns like Greyhound and the like. --Kels 20:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What I'd like to see is real joined up transport at a one stop shop, so you can say "I want to get from Cambridge to Heathrow airport for a 1PM flight on the 23rd of September" and it'll spit out a complete itinerary, and even render it as a nice PDF complete with local maps and photos of what the stops look like or email it to your phone, or whatever. I guess the problem is I've got a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. I need to rely on the kindness of strangers to bootstrap the data entry. I'm kind of hoping that if I can grow it in to a nice cute free service, then the transport barons will see the virtue in doing the data entry themselves in return for some measure of free advertising and placement. -- 21:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If google or mapquest were civilised, they'd long ago have provided a "public transport only" option... 22:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In the Netherlands they have 9292 which pretty much does what you want. But their public transport system is pretty good anyway. 22:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesomeness. I bet they didn't have that when I lived in Eindhoven. Of course they didn't have the internet much when I lived in Eindhoven. -- 22:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, hack into here and raid the database? You're a taxpayer - go get your money's worth. ;) --Robledo 19:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

An intelligent designer...
who hates sex? Not really. Stuff it, Conservapedia :D 02:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice link, should be on wigo world? 03:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hehe: "The two worms whip out wood and battle each other until one poor bastard gets jammed where the sun don't shine and officially becomes the woman. So it's sort of like prison in a way." 07:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I was reading a book ages ago called Why Is Sex Fun? and it was all about the evolutionary biology of it - and apparently the take-home message is that it's not animals that are fucked up in the grand scheme of things, but humans. 13:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I need a drink
I was talking to my mother and grandmother today. I learned they were planning to see a faith healer. When I stated skepticism about the practice, they said that he was the real deal and repeatedly told me about a woman they knew who regained the ability to walk. My sister was one my side for a bit when I mentioned a placebo effect, but then got mad at me when she said that I thought I knew it all and was trying to make myself look smart. She hates me anyway. I pointed out how they scam and then said their "power" might be that of Satan's. In short, a major headache talking to women who went to psychics when I was younger about faith.--Thanatos 04:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow! Just wow! Here, have a virtual shot of Crown Royal on me. 05:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And a dram of the wee Scotch milk of life on me. 05:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It always amazes me how little gratitude you get for pointing out how gullible people are. And (on a stereotyping misogynistic note) in my experience it does seem that females are more prone to believing that sort of stuff. Probably because they are more touchy-feely than us map-readers. 06:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * People hate to think their judgement is wrong. The best you can do is show them the facts, take the abuse, and then let them choose their own path. The weirdest thing is that they always think you're a "smartass", or a killjoy or similar. They never think that maybe you have their best interests at heart. 10:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cognitive dissonance, I think it's called. Basically, you have your worldview smashed by facts, and you have to come up with new ways of protecting it. Often these facts actually strengthen your beliefs. Hence the dismissing "ur-a-smartass" attitude. 13:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My grandma almost made it sound like she was trying to save me. She kept repeating "He (the faith healer)tells people that it (the faith healing) would only work if they believe in God". I try to point out people may be planted, only to have her repeat herself and the accursed anecdote.--Thanatos 13:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is known as the unsinkable rubber ducks. Bob Soles 13:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * @Genghis: I think you're probably right about teh distaff side being more credulous but I think it's possibly from 3 reasons, all historical. 1: women needed something to believe in when they were the "underclass"; 2: women were traditionally less informed on the hard sciences; 3: women were traditionally the passers of information down the generations (gossipers). All three of these are lessening with time & soon we'll be as up to speed as the men. Oh and, of course, we are more touchy-feely than men? 13:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Toast, you have repeatedly demonstrated your own technical prowess here so I've no doubt that you can read a map and programme a video recorder (just like my mum in fact) but my wife has all the computer skills of a slug (how do you cut and paste again?) and never knows which way is north on a map. But I am constantly amazed at the number of her friends who engage and believe in things like Reiki, aromatherapy, astrology & reflexology. Although an atheist herself (her parents were missionaries in Paraguay), when she was diagnosed with cancer her first thought was going to the Bristol Woo Cancer Centre. Fortunately she got over that idea once she started treatment. 14:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * One reason for the cancer thing is that it's such a boogaboo in today's society that "any port in a storm" is a common reaction. I can read maps etc but have great difficulty with time; I can't figure out things like "what day of the week will it be in ten days from now?" or even "what time was it nine hours ago?" and summertime has me completely foxed[[image:Ashamed.gif]]. I don't really believe in inherent gender differences - I think they're all cultural. 14:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Belief? A cursory glance at the matter and I'm sure there's at least some respectable research in the field of human sexual dimorphism. - Clepper (at school)
 * Oh, and I've read the Wikipedia articles, so I'm an expert. Booyah. - Clepper (it's amazing how many kids really are high in school in high school)
 * Like all "nature vs nurture" things, gender differences are probably a mix of both and actual genetic or evolutionary behaviour traits. If it was 100% cultural, then Gender Identity Disorder just wouldn't exist and that "experiment" where a boy was raised as a girl (because of an accident during circumcision rather than a gender identity crisis) wouldn't have ended in the guy/girl becoming a recluse, having multiple sex-change operations to figure it out and then killing himself a few years ago. Where the cultural/environmental and genetic/natural factors align they probably amplify and feedback on each other until you get things out of all proportion and trends become rigid rules. And after all, a culture just doesn't arbitrarily pick these things, it has to evolve slowly out of what are essentially brute animal behaviours. So, while there might be a correlation between being female and accepting any New Age mumbo-jumbo, it's certainly not a hard-and-fast rule and the actual cause may be a bit more complicated than "oh, they're women, daft little things". 08:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Animals have different male and female behaviours which appear to be innate rather than cultural and taking into account the differences in hormones that flood our bodies I have no doubt that males and females have different abilities. However, I don't see this as a completely binary phenomenon, my view is that there are two behaviour/skill curves which have different peaks but overlap so there is a propensity for (say) males to have better spatial skills and women to have better verbal communication skills; but this doesn't mean that all women have poorer spatial skills than all men nor that all men have poorer verbal communication skills than all women. The degreee of overlap is such that it is not possible to discriminate between the abilities of either solely on the basis of gender which is where much of the cultural bias comes from. 13:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well put! 13:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)