Talk:Fascism

Red fascism isn't a thing
Amarty (talk) 18:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The similarity was remarkable, especially under Stalin. Avida Dollarsher again 18:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree. "Red fascism" should at least be pointed out as an interpretation of the Stalinist-era USSR. 19:54, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * We already have an article for the horseshoe theory an another for Nazbol. I agree with Amarty this time. GeeJayK (talk) 19:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Disagree. One of the important elements of fascism is corporatism, which importantly is geared towards class collaboration. This is in contrast to socialist/communist movements which are based on class conflict.  It's also worth noting that generally the state leaned more heavily towards the economic interests of the private sector than towards those of the workers.  A strong state is also part of the end goal of fascism, whereas state socialism only seeks to use the state as a method of creating communism and expects the state to "wither away" after full communism is achieved since it won't really serve any purpose then.  Most of the things listed as similarities are just critiques of authoritarianism, with few if any elements actually unique to fascism.  Fascism isn't when you repress and kill people who disagree.  The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is also a bad example, since it can be adequately explained as a means of buying time to recover from the Great Purge. Drhead (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The focus on corporatism is heavily misplaced. Nazi Germany for example mostly privatized and gave businesses handouts rather than any sort of formal class collaboration. Also red fascism doesn't usually get used to mean "state socialism" on its own. People don't call Brezhnev a red fascist. Vorarchivist (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

"The white supremacist Know Nothings"
party factions were split on race and large northern unit numbers joined antislavery GOP including radical republicans thaddeus stevens and henry winter davis, and know nothing politics predated fascism by half a century so mentioning KNs in page about fascism is irrelevant and stupid like bruh how atrocious are these articles Mental sharpener (talk) 21:17, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * from the article - 'There was always an undercurrent of fascistic behavior and ideological leanings within the United States, as the Ku Klux Klan and Know Nothing Party; both embraced ultra-reactionary beliefs that foreshadowed the rise of Mussolini and Hitler later in the 20th century.' there in is the relevance. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ah yes kns were "fascistic" even though fascism didn't exist yet, just brilliant logic i must say Mental sharpener (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Whats particularly brilliant is a seeming inability to recognize there is a historical development prior to when an ideology is made explicit and named; and instead thinking fascism just developed in a instant fully formed the day people had a name for it. I take it you don’t read much on the history of social ideas, philosophy, etc.? - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Why do you think the history of chemistry includes the history of alchemy despite “chemistry” not being a named discipline until around the 18th century? - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 22:31, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * kns preceded fascists ideologically? LMAO such a flimsy basis seeing one hated catholics and the restored papal rule in lateran treaty Mental sharpener (talk) 23:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * But fascism isn’t solely defined on the basis of the policies and practices of fascist Italy. I am pretty confident that Japan’s particular brand of fascism didn’t really have any particular view on catholicism; Hitler literally credits the influence of racist policies and ideologies within the United States including the Klu Klux Klan, the eugenics movement, etc to his views on race. Going by Roger Griffen’s definition of fascism as Palingenetic ultranationalism this would include Hitler’s Germany, Japan’s Imperialism, Francoists, Fascist Italty, and elements of the Klu Klux Klan and Neo-Nazi movements that exist to this day. Being facsistic only implies a family resemblance to fascism, not a literal carbon copy of Mussolini’s views. Even then next to no historian defines fascism solely on Italy and Italy alone. It would undermine the historical consensus regarding the populist rise of Fascism across Europe and the explicit connections such movements had as developments of white supremacy within places like Sweden, Germany, etc. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Read the list of fascist movements on wikipedia and notice it doesn’t start and end with Italian Fascism. You have to recognize the degree to which ultranationalist tendencies will vary by geographic region. When something like Catholicism is tied heavily to national identity then countries with such identities will glorify catholicism.  Probably not something you’d see as strongly in ultranationalist movements in places like the UK, US, etc. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 23:30, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

A well-aged post I found from a prescient young man in 2017
How could he have been so brave, and so much more accurate than even he could have realized? 04:56, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Bongolian (talk) 05:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I must admit, though, points 2 and 3 of the "saving graces" section were flat out wrong. The rest held up pretty well. 05:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Approaching silver
I think this is getting close to silver. What do you think, ? Bongolian (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Some of the shit found in "left-wing fascism" is... questionable. Especially the (false) equivocation of far right movements in the global north with the critical analysis of colonialism and its effects in the global south. It's a 'vibes' "analysis" in other words. For instance the comparison between the regime of the Ayatollah in Iran and leftist support for it ignores how the Iranian Revolution was a popular revolt against a corrupt, Western imposed regime. Also the numerous uncritical references to horseshoe theory are eyebrow-raising. I personally object to this article being raised to silver without a reappraisal of the section on left wing fascism. Not to mention the ugly listicle contained therein. Vee (talk) 21:13, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I spoke too soon, either way most of my concerns are still prescient. Notably including how the section effectively strawmans or nutpicks post-colonialist (which is only post-modern in the sense that it's a critique of old colonialist theory) theory. Vee (talk) 21:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Good, I think that was the weakest section as I was editing the page. Feel free to delete or edit down. I toned down the horseshoe business, but those links could just be deleted. Bongolian (talk) 21:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I removed the section I found most problematic. I'll prune later as time goes by. Vee (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m gonna cut down on some of the big wall of text sections, like Metaxism or American fascism. It’s weird that they’re so much longer than the other ones. They should have their own articles if we are to go so long on it. 21:57, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Didn't someone say "Trumpism" should be its own article? Vee (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I also think Trumpism should be its own article. 23:08, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Me too, also think metaxism, legionarism, national radicalism should be their own articles, along with hungarism. (At the very least mentioned on the article.) also we should be more narrow calling fascist unless we have good reason too, as well as synthesize the sources to create kind of definition of fascism that most people can agree on, that was shared by both mussolini’s italy and adolf hitler’s Germany. I think Mussolini wrote hitlers playbook, Hitler took to another level. Also should have an article on Shōwa Statism in of itself.Jakester499 (talk) (contributions) 21:56, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Read the Five stages of fascism to add to our Paxton graph+Sources and the quotes
Another https://www.newsweek.com/robert-paxton-trump-fascist-1560652?amp=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/235001 --Jakester499 (talk) (contributions) 03:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also Recommend https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Common-characteristics-of-fascist-movementsJakester499 (talk) (contributions) 03:20, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * More sources by Robert Paxton https://econsystemsthinking.medium.com/summary-anatomy-of-fascism-eed6d626ee8--Jakester499 (talk) (contributions) 19:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Further Sources: https://johnganz.substack.com/p/the-jockcreep-theory-of-fascism https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9inDNkrzIGw&pp=ygUaWWVzIHlvdSBtaWdodCBiZSBhIGZhc2Npc3Q%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu1qoyKNofQ--Jakester499 (talk) (contributions) 21:56, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Trumpism
Are you sure it’s a good idea to add trumpism in the comparison box for Paxton’s definition? It might be seen as controversial. Rational Dude (talk) 17:38, 9 May 2023 (UTC)