RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive16

Changing the subject
Just read Watchmen. effing brilliant. Totnesmartin 17:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I love Alan Moore's work, but he's such a douche when it comes to understanding commerciallization. That, and he looks like the unabomber.   18:21, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * And he's from Northampton. Totnesmartin 18:24, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Regarding Moore's understanding of commercialization I await the Disney movie. --Shagie 20:53, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I hate to be the defensive Comic Book Guy-like fanboy here for Moore, but uh. I can kind of see his point on commercialization. His own works in particular, when made into movies, tend to get dumbed down and butchered. He said stuff about how Watchmen was specifically made for the comic book format and it shows, along with the fact that it seems like popular entertainment is only culturally validated once it has been made into a movie. Not that movies are bad, quite the opposite, but I always thought he had a point with regards to them.

Anyway, Watchmen. Brilliant comic, indeed. Photovoltaic Array 18:55, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * But if you sell out to a company like DC to get your stuff published, then yes, they can make as awful a movie out of it as they like. Don't like it?  Don't sign on the dotted line.  I hate when people sell out, then complain about selling out.   19:10, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Aaaahhh, I forgot about that. Good point, in all seriousness. Photovoltaic Array 19:48, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Actually, I have a big issue with Alan Moore and his issues with women... He has some serious female problems and should go see somebody about that.... That said, while I loved LXG. Watchmen (the comic) reminded me of dealing with Philosophy majors. SirChuckB  20:42, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Moore makes his women issues look better by standing next to Frank Miller. Problem solved! --Kels 08:00, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That's funny Kels, but what about the character played by Jessica Alba in Sin City? She weren't no hoor, she just did table dances, there's a four foot rule.   Mega   08:09, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * This is Miller we're talkin' about. She were a hoor on the inside! --Kels 08:11, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * There's a Terry Moore, creator of Strangers in Paradise who has precisely the opposite problem that Frank Miller has. This Moore goes so far in the direction of depicting women in a positive light that he should turn his penis back in for the way he deprecates his own male gender.  Why can't there be a healthy balance?   Mega   08:23, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Knowing
Stoopid. Very stoopid. Shall I go into detail on why it is scientifically infeasiable? -- 19:13, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * No. Now shut up. ENorman 19:30, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Too bad. *cough*


 * 1) The chances of the earth's magnetic field weakening just as a wave of solar wind passes over the earth is astronomically low.
 * 2) Telepathy is impossible.
 * 3) Fingernails don't easily make scratches in wood.
 * 4) Intersteller travel is as yet impossible.
 * 5) Knowing the future is impossible (to that degree of accuracy).
 * 6) A wave of intersteller radiation (gamma ray burst from star) DID hit the planet during the Cambrian period. Life coughed, but did not end.

-- 19:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)


 * What the hell are you on about now? TheoryOfPractice 19:41, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I thought it would be good science fiction. DOOMSDAY!!! was what I got instead. Rubbish. -- 19:43, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Ah. Hadn't heard of it. Suspension of disbelief is key to this sort of thing. TheoryOfPractice 19:45, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes. My mother was constantly calling it science fiction. Doesn't deserve the title. See here:. -- 19:49, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * How this for knowing. I be knowing that these godamn new shoes I brought yesterday are hurting my christing feet causing me to hobble like a South African diamond miner. Also I be knowing that this pounding headache has nothing to do with the haircut I just got but perhaps it was caused by the fact I got them to wash my hair first. They sent a gay man to do it and he loving washed my locks with creamy shampoo before whipping on the massaging chair which kneeded gently into my buttocks as the gay man proceeded to massage my scalp deeper and further until I told him to quit fucking around and just wash my hair damnit and perhaps save the massaging chair for someone more like his kind. Those are the things which I be knowing. Ace McWickedbitch and moan 20:06, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Thanx for the acequote material. -- 20:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I would hope, CUR, that after you shit "Acequote" malarky earlier that you would not attempt it again. Someone might - but not you. Ace McWickedbitch and moan 20:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Oookay Ace... But on the subject of movies
 * 1) 95% of all science fiction movies are crap.
 * 2) It's not worth it to sort through and find the 5% that aren't
 * 3) Ergo, don't waste time watching scifi movies, unless you are 100% sure that they are good (ie Star Wars)

I recommend some of the classics.


 * The Seventh Seal
 * Lawrence of Arabia
 * Doctor Zhivago (old version)
 * Count of Monte Cristo (old version)
 * Tora! Tora! Tora!
 * Passage to India (Warning- features rape and furry pr0n )

Personally, I think that Citizen Kane is overrated. User:TheemperorUser talk:Theemperor 20:17, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Cant go wrong Alien and Aliens though. The only Sci-Fi I like. Me, I am horror movie fan. In particular, zombie flicks. Ace McWickedbitch and moan 20:21, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * The recent Star Wars trilogy was pretty clearly in the 95% category. Original and the first sequel, no problem, although Jedi was a bit meh.  Overrated but at least reasonably watchable.  Of course, one might ask whether SW really qualifies as proper SF at all, rather being "science fantasy".  I've managed to find a couple of reasonably good SF stories in anime (Toward the Terra, Tytania, and Uninhabited Planet Survive are all good stuff, for instance), but haven't watched a lot of the live-action variety of late. --Kels 20:27, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Dark City is a bloody amazing sci-fi/film noir. Dealt with similar themes to The Matrix, but was a much better film--which isn't to say the original Matrix movie was bad. -- 20:28, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I prefer Dark City to Matrix (Jennifer Connelly one good reason), and Kels, some good SF movies, "The Island" and "Serenity"  Mega   20:31, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * HAH! Just looked it up, and it turns out the guy who directed Knowing was the same guy who directed Dark City. Guess you can't get 'em all right. :p -- 20:33, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Nobody else around here going to stick up for Blade Runner? Best sci-fi-noir evah. Bondurant 05:15, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Blade Runner is very influential, but its about to be Overtaken By Events (it's very nearly November 2019 in real life after all), and the technology in the film has 80's written all over it (CRTs indeed!)  Mega   14:36, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * What the hell has technology got to do with the quality of the film? Blade Runner is a classic noir in its own right and its influence can be seen in other films to this day, Dark City for one of them. 2001 is a classic, and the fact that it is now 2009 doesn't change that, nor the fact that they use CRTs in the film! Bondurant 04:44, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Kels, ignore the heathen. Serenity sucked. User:TheemperorUser talk:Theemperor 20:34, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Kels IS a heathen. Stargate was pretty good, as was Startrek and Sanctuary. Almost anything Canadian in origin. -- 20:36, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Except "The Starlost", which was the Canuckistan Battlefield Earth  Mega   20:40, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * If you're looking for interesting Canadian sci-fi, I'd recommend LEXX. It's weird as fuck, but it's very funny/sexy/dark. -- 20:41, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Loved LEXX (Canadian/German with a little bit of Brit, I think) 02:10, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * (EC)But Starlost, which had a Canadian connection, sucked really bad, despite trying to be hard SF. Dark City was amazing, Matrix was entertaining but the sequels got worse as they went along, although there are a couple of good stories in The Animatrix.  Stargate was good, yes, my roommate was a fan.  By way of trivia, I used to know Lex Gigeroff, who The Lexx was named after (as was Gigerotta in the pilot mini-series).  --Kels 20:43, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * (EC)As a Canadian sci-fi nerd, I find that amazingly cool. There were a few in Animatrix I quite liked, too--didn't hurt that the detective one was directed by the Cowboy Bebop guy. Dark City has only one flaw: the plot spoiling monologue at the beginning, which I somehow (thankfully) managed to overlook when I first saw it. I'm trying to get a copy of the director's cut... -- 20:49, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I enjoyed the series Stargate SG-1 more than the movie. -- 20:46, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * The movie was kind of pop corn fare. The series had a lot more heart. And MacGyver. -- 20:51, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * The series was also made largely in Vancouver. Going back to The Starlost for a moment, I remember a column in Analog by Ben Bova about the whole experience.  Turns out, they really did want to do a real series, and hired him as Science Advisor and Harlan Ellison for the script.  However, they then blew their budget on getting Keir Dulea as the lead, and couldn't afford a lot of other necessary stuff.  Aside from which, nobody knew much about SF for television at the time, and it all turned into a mess.  Ellison was prescient enough to get his name changed in the credits, but Bova wasn't so fortunate, so he had to wear it.  As he later said, they didn't need a Science Consultant, they needed a Science Fiction Consultant. --Kels 20:55, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I've never heard of it till now, heh. I just looked up the plot, and it sounds a bit like one of my favourite Heinlein novels, Orphans of the Sky--hicks on a spaceship they don't realise is a spaceship. Albeit without the mutants. -- 21:03, 13 April 2009 (EDT)


 * Good choice on the Heinlein. As is widely known, the S.F. hierarchy is Asimov > Heinlein > Herbert > Clarke > everyone else.  User:TheemperorUser talk:Theemperor 21:22, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I definitely have Heinlein and Asimov competing for first. If I had to choose, I'd say Heinlein, simply because I adore Stranger in a Strange Land so much. I like Herbert, but I only ever read Dune. Can't remember if I've read anything more than Nine Billion Names of God and Childhood's End for Clarke. -- 21:30, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Dune was the best scifi ever plagiarized from Asimov's Foundation series. And Heinlein is up solely because of TMISHM.  I have Stranger in a strange land lazing somewhere around the house, but I have too much shit going on to read it.  User:TheemperorUser talk:Theemperor 21:43, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I read an awful lot of Heinlein growing up (probably most if not all of his work), and while the last couple of novels really showed how much he needed an editor, the earlier stuff is great fun. TMIAHM and SIASL were great, although I also liked how he handled the paranoid suspense angle in The Puppet Masters.  The film for that was pretty decent, up until the total cop-out ending that ruined it for me.  No reason it couldn't have stayed true to the book.  Some of his early juvenile stuff would make great movies with a few tweaks, though.  Farmer in the Sky, Have Space Suit, Will Travel, and Tunnel in the Sky would all be good choices for adaptions.  Oh, and I suddenly remembered the animated adaption of Red Planet, that wasn't too bad either.  --Kels 23:39, 13 April 2009 (EDT)


 * I was way more into Space: 1999 than Starlost. All of these shows, of course, when I was a wee lass.   Mega   21:06, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I was a big fan of Space:1999, I even have a couple of the large-format comics they made of it (John Byrne art, I think). My brother was into Star Trek, so that was my alternative.  When I was little, the second season (with Maya) was really exciting, but watching it later on I started to appreciate that the Andersons were really dealing with some serious ideas in the first season, which got out of their hands in the second.  Pity, I wanted to see where that whole "mysterious unknown force" thing was leading. --Kels 21:19, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

I second the recommendation of Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago, and Passage to India, whilst adding Bridge on the River Kwai, which I watched again last night. David Lean is freaking incredible. Freaking. Incredible. Now I'll have to watch the old Monte Cristo, since I'm a Dumas nut. 21:05, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I need to watch and read Monte Cristo. My only experience with the story is the references in V for Vendetta, and Gankutsuou, which is Monte Cristo in space and on several drugs. ENorman 21:13, 13 April 2009 (EDT)

Watch Seventh Seal. Best movie I've ever seen. User:TheemperorUser talk:Theemperor 21:08, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I grabbed it from bittorrent, it was less impressive than I thought it would be. Vertigo is my favorite.    Mega   21:21, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * A woman after mine own heart. -- 21:25, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * If anything from that bygone era, I'd probably take Twelve Angry Men as one of my absolute favourites. And the Karloff Frankenstein, of course. --Kels 23:41, 13 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Classics eh? Well The Lost Weekend is probably my favourite classic. It won the 1943 Best Picture award. Also Pappilion is great. Ace McWickedbitch and moan 00:22, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

I have made my views on the scientific feasibility of Asimov's Foundation series clear. I somewhat despaired when he gave the Second Foundationers the ability to communicate faster than light with their own brains. The telepathy is really the thing that gets me the most. 05:30, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * The "Second Foundation Trilogy" with Bear, Brin, and Benford cleans some of that up with wormholes replacing "hyperdrive" and there are satelites called "Giskards" in orbit around each planet to keep the population docile rather than have Daneel do it all from one spot with FTL telepathy.  Mega   14:34, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Watched "Alphaville" (1960's French sci-fi) and "Down by Law" (with Tom Waits) over the weekend. Both flippin' amazing. --PsyGremlinWhut? 05:36, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Wormholes, FTL, six to half a dozen. The fact is, them being able to do either without external aids is, frankly, ridiculous. 15:13, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I watched A Chinese Tall Story over the weekend, and that's the most utterly random, totally fucked up version of A Journey To the West I have ever seen. It's insanely ridiculous, funny as hell, and somehow manages to make a Buddhist monk in a Spiderman costume make sense. --Kels 19:18, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

re: things what aint so
When reading Science Fiction you have to remember that second word: it's fiction. There's no way the same criteria should be applied as to a documentary. So what if the author posits wormhole FTL? It's his universe & he can do what he wants! Samuel Taylor Coleridge had the right idea:"willing suspension of disbelief". Let's face it, it's all a load of cod, but it's entertainment, not fact. Do you pick on the classics because Mr Darcy didn't exist or Major Major is an unlikely name? It's FICTION! 21:28, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Science fiction, last time I checked, has to have at least a shred of truth. This didn't. -- 21:34, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Science fiction is a form of pseudoscience that is at least clear about the fact that it is bullshitting. - User   21:37, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Greg Bear wrote a sci-fi novel BEFORE the World Wide Web came to be, and in his book, set in 2048, the internet was still text-based. In his sequel, set in 2055 but written AFTER the WWW, all of a sudden the people in his future were all about sharing videos. Instructive on the limits of imagination.   Mega   21:38, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * @CUR: Truth? Narr. the only things that have to be true are people, & even they are warped. There's nothing true about any form of extra solar travel yet so it all depends on the author's universe. It's all about stretching possibilities up to, and beyond, breaking point. As long as its internally consistent, it's OK by me. 21:47, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes, but it is possible- theoretically. There is nothing in the laws of physics that prohibits it. Typically, science fiction tries to expand upon the laws of physics, not warp them- the film had radiation from the sun cause a fireball, which wouldn't happen. -- 21:56, 14 April 2009 (EDT)



Wait does CUR REALLY think that faster than light interstellar travel DOESN'T violate the laws of physics? What a joke... User:TheemperorUser talk:Theemperor 22:00, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Wormholes, anyone? -- 17:08, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * EC) If you're gonna talk film then you're on your own: there have been very few decent ones. Almost zero, in fact. They can't match up to the images in the head and they're constrained by having to appeal to a mainstream audience. 22:02, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

A good rule of thumb re science fiction movies is 'the badder the better'. You know, "that movie was soooo bad, it was almost good." Helps with the whole suspenion of belief thing. One of my favourite, recent sf movies is Sunshine.RagTop Gone sailing 01:47, 11 February 2009 (EST) 01:57, 15 April 2009 (EDT) (And I see that my sig needs some more work!)
 * "Starship troopers" has to be pretty high up the list of any "so-bad-its-good" films. --PsyGremlinWhut? 08:23, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * It was what the British refer to as a "piss-take". I figured that out when the black guy whipped the white guy.   Mega   08:29, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I could never decide whether it was a piss take or not - still was definitely in the "soooo bad it's good" category. RagTop Gone sailing 09:38, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Doogie Howser in a SS trenchcoat? Come on, it was Police Academy in space.    Mega   09:47, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * An old friend hated Independence Day because he wanted teh excellent pie pan flying saucers. Anyway, I recommend 2001 ASO, and War of the Worlds.  Also, Gattaca, awesomely titled. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  02:08, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Not the Tom Cruise version of WotW, I trust? --Kels 07:51, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * The one I'm thinking of was B&W, so probably not... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  19:34, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * For lulz rent Armageddon, it does for scientific accuracy in film what CP does for its bailiwick. <font style="background: #880000" face="verdana"> Mega   08:05, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Independence day has one of my favourite lulz where our hero whips out his Apple laptop to alien computer lead - available at all branches of Radio Shack - and after making a successful connection, runs a program called download virus. It's a good thing the alien OS/hardware was so compatible. Silver Sloth 09:06, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Actually, from reading the imdb goofs, I reckon Armageddon is more accurate than Deep Impact. But that's probably by virtue of trying to be realistic, giving it more oppotunity to mess up. Armageddon was just meant to be silly from start to finish. <font color=red face="Tahoma"> A rmondiko V  User_Talk:Armondikov 11:16, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I liked a lot of Deep Impact. Don't think it is great, but I enjoy watching it once in a while. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  19:36, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm a little late to this one... But I would like to point out that it is labeled science FICTION. Nobody expects true science in these films, any more than they expect actual history in the "National Treasure" films.... I'm just saying. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  17:15, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * There is a difference between science fiction and science fantasy. -- 17:17, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Not really.... Science Fantasy is usually considered a subsection of Science Fiction, but that's neither here nor there.... My original point still stands. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  17:44, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Science fiction tends to use fancy words and things that weasel out of the laws of physics. For example, we cannot travel at light speed, but if matter falls towards a black hole at faster than light speed, then there's no reason a wormhole wouldn't enable such quick travel. In fact, much of what is possible now would be considered science fiction a few decades ago. Science fantasty, on the other hand, doesn't try to explain what is happening. They never give an explanation. -- 19:30, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

So Fuckin' Slow.
I don't think it's just me--all the other websites I'm going to a re loading up just fine; RW is being paaainnnfullly slow today? What's up with that? TheoryOfPractice 12:39, 14 April 2009 (EDT) See here. 12:52, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Thanks, sweetheart. TheoryOfPractice 12:58, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Pleasure, hunk. 13:03, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Crap, where's template:get a room when I need it? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  02:10, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, I understood bugger all of Nx talking there... But yes. A "Get a Room" template may be in order (I can imagine it would be quite useful). <font color=red face="Tahoma"> A rmondiko V  User_Talk:Armondikov 11:13, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Open Office
Ive just downloaded OpenOffice.org, because... Um, I don't know actually. Because I saw it and thought it looked interesting. Wow, probably the same reason I started using RW then. Hmm. Interensting.

In any case, does anyone know if this stuff is any good? Thought this might be a good place to ask. Thanks. 14:19, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Whoops, messed up the link. Fixed. 14:22, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I use it, and I think it's great. Does everything you expect it too. The only downside, IMHO, is that it's not the prettiest. Taytopacket 14:25, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I agree, it's great. I don't have MS word, just OO. Totnesmartin 14:29, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Open Office lets you import any file or image and create a PDF. And the price can't be beat. <font style="background: #880000" face="verdana">  Mega   14:30, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Open Office rocks, especially now that it reads docx files--that took a couple of years to happen though. Expect the same problem when the Great Satan changes their file formats again. TheoryOfPractice 14:30, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I use it (not too much choice being a Linux user who needs to import Word files from time to time). I think it's great, but still needs a lot of work doing on it. One thing it can't do is import pictures when they've been rotated in Word. In fact, rotating any picture in ooo is not always possible - a bit of a failing. Another thing to improve on are the templates, which are quite clunky to use. But for something that's free, it's great. Bondurant 14:40, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I've used it ever since I discovered that my computer only came with a trial for MS Office about 3 years ago. It is ugly, yes, but works like a dream. Didn't know about the .docx update though *goes to update* ENorman 15:34, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Thanks v much guys! Lynad (I dont log in cos im on a slow computer and im an hour late for school... but it is me. Honest.)
 * I just installed it a couple of weeks ago, and while it might be able to read docx, I don't see an option to save that way. Do I need something outside the regular package? --Kels 07:55, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Kels, I think it only reads docx, but won't save in it--but I can't see why one would need to save in docx--Word still opens doc, no? TheoryOfPractice 08:40, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I have two words for you all: learn LaTeX. - User   04:52, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
 * My "save as" in OO. 05:02, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
 * PI: LaTex isn't really for anything but docs that will be "published". For normal use the WYSIWYG of Word & OO is much more appropriate. I've used LaTeX but it depends on the reader having the ability to format it. 05:08, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I use it for everything, it makes what you do look professional regardless. - User   05:14, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
 * It's many yonken since I used it. I haven't got it installed here - might download it to see if I remember how etc. 05:23, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

FSF
I just read the Free Software Foundation's website, and I am quite astounded that they say that software isn't free if you are able to install nonfree software on it. For goatness' sake, how else are you meant to run essentials like Flash? Surely if your software is free that means that you also have freedom to install whatever you want? 16:14, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Stallman and his ilk are serious cranks, and if it had been left up to them, "GNU/"Linux would still be a toy only used by hardcore hacker types. 16:22, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I'm looking at their definitions page, and can't find that caveat: where are you reading that? TheoryOfPractice 16:25, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * * facepalm* The page I meant was this one on the GNU website, which has none of the major Linux distros, which is, frankly, silly. 16:33, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

I think Listener and others and I will disagree on this, and I'm just learning my way around open-source and stuff, but I think a bit of a purist attitude is useful in theory if not really practicable; it kind of sucks that in order to fully participate in digital media/online culture/what-have-you, at some point you have to give money to rich men and their corporations. I didn't have to enrich any capitalists in order to learn how to read or participate in lots of print culture. Why should my participation in new media be mediated by--and to the benefit of--capitalism? TheoryOfPractice 16:41, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Anyone who was a linux user back when adobe only had flash 7 on linux which had a huge sound lag when playing videos (making youtube unwatchable) will agree with me that closed source software is evil. --  Nx / talk 16:49, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * But, as you point out, YouTube, among innumerable other things, depends on Flash. Having a computer you can use is really more important than having a purely free one. 16:53, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * But I couldn't use it because flash was a closed source POS. Had it been open source, someone would've fixed the sound issue. Since it's closed source, we had to wait for flash 9 (adobe skipped flash 8 on linux). Fortunately, Adobe's linux support is pretty good now (they've released a 64 bit version finally), but I still don't like flash (and silverlight and their kin), because they make the web, which was designed to be open, closed. --  Nx / talk 17:03, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes, RMS is a crank and a weirdo, but it could be worse. Imagine the horror if ESR had managed to worm his way in as spokesman for open source. It scarcely bears thinking about. Fortunately, open source has become too big a cultural movement to be any one organisation's baby any more. Indeed, it's almost a no brainer now. In six month's time the only way you'll be able to buy a phone that costs over $150 with a closed source operating system on it is to look for that oh-so-friendly Microsoft or Apple logo. I'm sure even these dinosaurs will eventually figure out which way the wind is blowing. Either that or just do us all a favour and die. -- 17:30, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * And yet that phone will have a security chip in it that will prevent you from uploading your own OS on it (like the G1 has), defeating the purpose of having an open source OS on it. --  Nx / talk 17:33, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, from my point of view, that doesn't actually defeat the point of having an open source OS. I like writing software for open platforms because as a profession, we suck at writing documentation. I want the damn code so I can tell how API calls work. Your mileage may vary. I'm actually mildly in favour of only allowing people to flash authorised firmware images on to devices. I don't want to be paying for the morons who brick their phones whinging about it. Support costs and returns are a huge factor in consumer electronics pricing, often dwarfing the bill of materials. -- 17:44, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * When the documentation is as shitty as MediaWiki's, having the code does help a lot, but MediaWiki is probably a lot easier to understand than Android. Anyway, there's the Android dev phone 1 (you get hardware warranty only, if you screw up the software, your fault), unfortunately, I don't foresee other manufacturers releasing unlocked versions of their Android phones, and the simplistic copy protection employed by the android app store also doesn't work on it. --  Nx / talk 18:24, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * TOP, it may interest you to know that Stallman believes in capitalism as the basis for his free software movement. He says that the tactics currently employed by the large corporations in that business more properly constitute "fascism."
 * To answer your question about, "Why must I deal with Big Nasty Corporations to participate in digital media?": Because without the historic and ongoing efforts of said Big Nasty Corporations, there would be no digital media. 18:05, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

I knew that about Stallman--and about the gap between what he considered reasonable capitalist venture and current practices. And just because corporations happened to ahve played a big role in the development of new media, that doesn't mean it had to evolve that way...TheoryOfPractice 18:16, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * You would prefer, perhaps, that the State take over the entire shebang, as it was in those heady days of ARPANET? 21:46, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Not the State. The People. TheoryOfPractice 22:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * And what, pray tell, is the difference? 23:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * You have a strange habit of equating any argument you disagree with to communism. - User   00:01, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That is only a problem if said argument does not constitute communism. 00:22, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I think I read in a Carl Sagan book an anecdote about a sweet old lady who went into fits of religious ecstasy whenever she heard the sacred word, "Mesopotamia". This would be the mirror image of that, just swapping in the word "Communism". <font style="background: #880000" face="verdana">  Mega   08:16, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Listener, you say "communism" as though it's a bad thing. And I'm thinking of something somewhat different than straight-up communism anyway. TheoryOfPractice 08:52, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Then my tone when I say communism is completely in line with my views of that political philosophy. As to my views of the other two: while some people say that the legislature represents the "will of the people," adherents to those philosophies insist that it is instead the union bosses who do that. 13:11, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Idea
A lot of us have things we like and want to recommend to others. So in the true nature of a mobocracy, what if we created a page/section called "We at RW recommend"? It would utilize our super-awesome voting system, and people could suggest books, movies, beers, etc., and it would be voted upon by others if they recommend it too. If it gets over a certain amount (20-30?), it would be put on the official list. Anything that comes close could get moved to an "honorable mentions" list, and anything with a huge negative count could be moved to an "avoid like the effing plague" list.

Thoughts? ENorman 17:23, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Like. TheoryOfPractice 17:23, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Like. -- 17:26, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * deffo like - we get to put up random crap and vote on it - I'm in Heaven (well, Devon). Totnesmartin 17:31, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Dunno. Can we have a vote to see if people recommend the idea? :) alt 17:50, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

We at RW recommend

Here. -- 17:53, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Mobocracy at it's finest. *tear* ENorman 18:18, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * It'd make an interesting twist on the usual WIGO formula. <font color=red face="Tahoma"> A rmondiko V  User_Talk:Armondikov 19:24, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * What would it be called, and why would we care longer than the first few days it existed? Let's just do it here:

Beer Scotch Single malt Scotch All of the above Plastic body parts

PS, cur, you're supposed to start polls with a number. So who knows if this will work. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  23:54, 14 April 2009 (EDT)


 * You just have to give a poll a unique id. The number convention was to save people having to invent their own names at WIGO CP and to avoid repetition of the id. - User   23:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I know. I was just giving cur gratuitous shit for not starting it at zero. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  01:15, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * We've got that page (somewhere?) about browser add-ons. A cat (Category:Recommended by RW) for that page & any others would do? 18:11, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yeah, "that page somewhere" is probably what this one will end up becoming if we don't figure out a way to tie them tighter into the wiki. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  21:28, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

"Local time"
...is one hour later than actual time. Never trust what you read on the internet. Totnesmartin 17:34, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That was copied from my userpage, so it shows my local time. Who added that and why? --  Nx / talk 17:36, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Me. As for why, well, bars have clocks (and neon). -- 17:37, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * But what's the point in it showing CET? --  Nx / talk 17:39, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, unless you can configure it. . . -- 17:41, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * "Never trust what you read on the internet"? But I just read that statement on the internet! I don't know whether I should trust it or not; I'm very confused. alt 17:59, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Help. . . endless logical paradox. . . computer overloading. . . *smoke comes out of ears, falls over Falls down*. -- 18:06, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * He's finally dead. Yay! ENorman 18:33, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Data's feelings are hurt. Shame on you. -- 18:37, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Maybe Tasha Yar can make it up to him by permitting a little Data entry. <font style="background: #880000" face="verdana"> Mega   20:24, 14 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That line was far off the geek scale it went all the way to cool then back to geeky again. -- 17:39, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I didn't even understand it. - User   23:56, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

On a lighter note.
This just had me laughing out loud. --PsyGremlinWhut? 08:50, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That's really really, surprisingly well made..and accurate. Loved it! Taytopacket 08:55, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Stumbled upon that yesterday. Bloody brilliant. -- 14:37, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * You have StumbleUpon and still get stuff done? Amazing. I had to uninstall SU to get my life back. Totnesmartin 17:43, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Gay!! Stolen from xkcd and totally photoshopped. Suck my dicks and I hate black people. <font color=red face="Tahoma"> A rmondiko V  User_Talk:Armondikov 07:36, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I bet you vote for Palin. --PsyGremlinWhut? 10:49, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

Fox News reports something worthwhile
Jennifer Love Hewitt Takes Bubble Baths In a Tiara, Likes Funny Geeks. So... Does this mean that all I need to do is draw a bubble bath and get a tiara? Or does Fermi's paradox also apply to women? --Shagie 20:00, 15 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yes. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  01:05, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Guess that means she won't get this lobster dinner either. You know, the darnedest thing happened... --Shagie 03:13, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

US Politics
Something that has always struck me as hilarious is the inherent hypocrisy that comes with politics, but this new one in the States is amazing. Short version: The DHS just put out a new report warning about the threat from right wing extremist groups and terrorism. As one can guess, the right wing is going ape shit over this.... I just had one question, for those complaining about government profiling.... Where were you when Bush was openly partisan in his hiring and firing decisions? <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  12:51, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Most people have no problem with power, so long as they are the ones holding it, but when someone they dislike comes to power, they start squawking on in a most hypocritical fashion about how that sort of power is immoral, etc. 13:05, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

"Where were you when Bush was openly partisan in his hiring and firing decisions?" And where are the Obama supporters with their indignation at his refusal to release the torture memos and his continued support of warrantless wiretapping? CreamTwoSugars 13:14, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Do you actually know any left wingers? Personally, I find it disgusting and I'm very angry about it. Not only because Obama specifically campaigned against those policies, but because they're against everything this country is supposed to stand for.  Your turn. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  13:41, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, there seems to be a lot of talk about the torture letters here and some on wiretapping here. Not sure you could call The Orange Satan anything but left. --Kels 13:51, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * EC.I know lots of left-wingers. I also know a lot of Obama supporters--not at all the same thing, my friend--Obama and the Democrats are a centrist, somewhat conservative party on the global scale.. I played a little game with myself walking to the library from my house today--about a mile and a half. I counted close to 60 Obama icons--t-shirts, buttons, stickers on windows, you name it. it's kind of like Mao imagery in China, the way people display their loyalty to their dear leader 'round here. Now the stickers you might chalk up to laziness--like Christmas lights still up at easter. But the fact that boys are still putting on their Obama t-shirts and girls still have Obama buttons on their coats tells me that our "revulsion" at the policies that Obama in some--but, to be fair not all--ways continues to support was political more than moral. And @ Kels--there's a big gap between the Daily Kaos, Democracy now and the places where most Americans get their news; I'm not sure i'd count DK as "a lot of press..."CreamTwoSugars 13:57, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Wow, goalposts on wheels! When did you ask about "a lot of press"?  You just asked where the outrage of Obama supporters was, I showed you some on one of the strongest supportive sites around.  And WTF does "I wear a T-shirt with a guy I like overall on it" have to do with "I don't like some specific policies that aren't fully settled in the first place" anyhow?  Especially after 8 years of the right media openly fellating Bush regardless of any policies, including ones that left people dead, like with Iraq and Katrina.  Oh, and in the future, don't play little games with yourself in public.  It's unseemly. --Kels 14:05, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I'd also like to add, when it comes to your stupid little Mao comparison, where were you when the Right was putting Bush on everything? And since we're already playing the Schlafly admit this and we can continue game: I'm still waiting for you to say anything bad about Bush and his open political hiring policy.... Still waiting.... <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  14:19, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * If and when DK is up in arms about something Obama did or did not do, that's a good indicator of a legitimate problem. I don't think this happens as often on the right under their regime. I'd like to see an anti-[BR]ush Drudge headline. I'd be surprised if an example exists. Especially considering they never did anything wrong. Evar. <font color=#CC2200>Neveruse513 14:30, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * How about some critical stuff from RedState, LGF, WND or TownHall during his tenure as President? Can't imagine there's much, and if there are any at all, they'd probably be of the "he didn't go far enough" variety. --Kels 14:33, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * John Lofton, of The American View, did nothing but criticize Bush during his tenure. 14:39, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Hmm, a quick scan of Lofton's site seems to show his criticisms of Bush were largely that he wasn't promoting God nearly enough, and he should have kicked them faggots, wetbacks and sand n*ggers around a WHOLE lot more. So yeah, "He didn't go far enough" over all. --Kels 14:47, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Mr. Lofton also is of the opinion that the Iraq War is immoral and "un-Constitutional." 14:50, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but no true conservative evar criticized teh Bush. <font color=#CC2200>Neveruse513 14:56, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

Going back to your original question, Sir Chuck...I think this is the inevitable outcome of a system that allows a relatively narrow spectrum of political ideology/action; people cling hard to what they see as the right in their side and have to ignore the ways in which the people they support are guilty of doing the things they get all pissed off about when the other side does it. So the tea party people ignore tax hikes and government spending when the right is in charge and protest when the left does--or at least in their imagination does--the same thing..and they support one kind of profiling as necessary for national security but make noise when it's their turn to be profiled by the state. The real problem isn't who the state is profiling, it's that the state is profiling; but it's easier to blame a particular politician and make it about a specific shape in a policy than to face the possible reality that the whole system is designed to work against the people it's meant to support....TheoryOfPractice 14:44, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

It's times like this that I'm proud to be Canadian. Our populace may be ignorant and prejudiced as sin, but far fewer people are willing to engage in this level of blindingly-obvious hypocrisy (apathy in action?). There certainly is a hypocrisy among the "left" (as among any political group in the history of mankind) that blinds many ardent Obama supporters to his shortcomings, failures, and wiretapping shit like this. And yet it seems there is so much more hypocrisy on the self-proclaimed right. Are there any leftwingers seriously calling the "right" un-American for protesting? The left protested the most egregious extension of executive privilege and infringments on privacy under Bush. The right is protesting... increased spending by an elected congress, and tax cuts for most Americans? Does there exist any remote equivalent of your Coulter/Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/O'Reilly dipshit-a-thon on the left? Olberman and newsfeeds from DailyKOS and Huffington don't seem to stack up. I've said it before, "liberals" are much slower to defend their "leaders" unequivocally, as they have no unified agenda and far fewer angry rallying points (read: straw-men). 20:00, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yeah, we've got a bunch of parties, and I'd say the Liberals are probably closest to your Democrats. But when Iggy speaks, people are pretty willing to call him on his assorted bullshit.  But there are still party faithful that rationalize whatever might come out of him.  Same goes for the parties further left, like the NDP or the Greens.  But the Socred  Reform  Alliance Conservatives?  My oh my, but they get a pass from their party on the worst sort of shit, and the opposing parties are called on for far milder things. --Kels 20:31, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That's quite true, especially out west. Reform/Canadian-Alliance supporters don't care what the conservatives do, as long as they make token screeds about abortion and gays.  I guess the big difference is that we don't have a slate of high-profile 24-hour talking heads continually defending conservative policy.  Beyond some local talk radio and editorials, you'll be hard pressed to find ardent government supporters in the media as in the states, even when Liberals are at the helm.  21:09, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I think a big part of the problem is that it's hard to call out a guy that is doing 80% what you want him to do. Yes, we should make not of the 20% that he is doing we don't like, but realistically, it is not possible to please all the people all the time. 10:47, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Template:!
Can someone please explain to me, in fairly nontechnical terms, what it does. 16:16, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * From what I can see, it's an easy way to insert the | character most often used to name internal links. For example, typing SirChuckB will get you a link to my user page with a seperate name.  Like this: SirChuckB.  From what I can see, it was created back in 2007 before we had the handy dandy character inserter available. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  16:26, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Although it seems utterly redundant, I read this at template:(( "Inserts a pair of left braces. Used in other templates to prevent a template being evaluated prematurely." So that's probably what it's for. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  17:13, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Human is probably ... He's been at this much longer than I have. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  17:45, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, I got lucky since the (( and )) templates are right next to ! at the beginning of thelist... I checked "what links here", and it's everywhere, so it's probably used in 'talkpage', perhaps 'cp', 'wp', etc... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  17:54, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * It is used so that you can place a | in a table, without the software mistaking it for a cell break. - User   21:21, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Yeah, what he said. I fixed his typo too. So sue me. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  21:34, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * It is like my awesome Template:Gt. Thanks for that Human. - User   21:42, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

No, what it does is allow you to put templates with parameters in tables. Otherwise the software interprets the pipe in the template as a row and breaks the template in half. Used most commonly in template tags that have other templates transcluded in them.--Ipatrol 22:51, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * I like the way you managed to say the same thing I did, yet still disagree with me. - User   02:30, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Older conversation
A while back someone asked about the possibility of being pregnant without knowing... I just thought this was rather ironic considering we just went through it. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  18:13, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * You gotta wonder what Mary thought... or did the "angel" that descended upon her explain it in advance? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  18:57, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Reminds me of this storyline in Girls With Slingshots (it goes on for several strips, ends at the lesbian bar strip). --Shagie 20:29, 16 April 2009 (EDT)

I would just like to note...
...that the new Franz Ferdinand album is really good. -- 21:07, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Pffffft no talent bastards. I downloaded a 4.5 hour long Adam Beyer set. Now I know that no one probably knows who that is but, yeah, its pretty cool. Ace McWickedbitch and moan 21:24, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Shameless self-promotion, I sold a whole bunch of speaker kits/parts to the producer of their first album (at Gula Studion) and his friends. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  21:30, 16 April 2009 (EDT)
 * That's exceptionally cool, Human. -- 02:25, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Saw "The Seagull" today
So that's where the term "Chekov's Gun" comes from... ENorman 23:01, 16 April 2009 (EDT)