RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive39

New study gives insight into the power of minority extremists
"Moderately conservative people who belong to the Republican Party, for example, may believe that people with extremely conservative views represent their party, because those are the opinions they hear most often. However, that may not be true." Interesting article about a study conducted by smoking-hot Kimberly Rios Morrison of Ohio State University. 17:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "People with relatively extreme opinions may be more willing to publicly share their views than those with more moderate views." Uh, when did this reporter start channelling Captain Obvious? 17:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem that obvious to me - I would expect the more extreme to keep their traps shut, in general. Of course, the last 30 years of US politics has encouraged the most extreme on the right, at least, to trumpet their views far and wide.  20:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to come down to people being more comfortable sharing their views if they believe that there is a significant number of people sharing those views. Presumably that would also apply to people with moderate views, although extremists are a bit easier to notice. -- 20:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it obvious; extremists are so rabid and obsessed with their political views that they can do nothing but caterwaul about them, never mind if anyone else shares them or not. 04:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Lexicon
Reading All the President's Men again, and I got to thinking - what a good thing it took place at the Watergate. We'd look a bit silly referring to scandals as "Iran-Park Hyatt" or "Travel-Holiday Inn". -- Psygremlin  17:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The "gate" meme is quite handy to tack onto scandals (It's not just the internet, MC). I was watching some of those New World Order conspiracy videos on YouTube recently and evidently the Watergate Hotel is owned by the Catholic Church or perhaps the Illuminati. 17:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I always wondered if smaller scandals prior to Watergate were referred to as "travel-dome", or "Iran-contra-teapot"... Anyway, I think the reason the meme has grown so strongly is the very fact that "gate" is an easy suffix to tack onto anything. 20:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Curling up in a ball and crying for the future of humanity
co2isgreen.net 18:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't give up hope yet. It might be a Poe. 21:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it ain't a Poe. Notice all the earnest stuff urging readers to write to Senate about it.  See also this blog/report in the Guardian.  Unsurprisingly the "CO2 is Green" group is founded & funded by carbon fuel industry fatcats, & it's applying for tax exempt status.  We should probably have an article on it at RW if we don't already.   22:19, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In that case, I weep for our future as well. 22:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * At first I thought it was a Poe because it read like something I would make up with my friends. Then I realized that they were actually advertising on the television and billboards where I live. I can only hope there are not enough gullible people to believe this, but living in Montana I know that is a pipe dream. 04:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's amazing that people still can't get their heads around very simple facts. YES, CO2 is "the food of the planet, dontchaknow" and I'm yet to come across any biologist that says it isn't very important. But pizza is also a nice food for a human; and if you stuff your face with enough pizza you die. Same principle; more of something good isn't necessarily better. Really, is this actually that difficult to grasp? 11:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Not cool
After a botched firmware upgrade, my router was sitting there flashing at me. Don't ask me how I stuffed it up, I don't really know what I could have done wrong, these Netgears are usually pretty good with upgrades. Anyway, I did the factory-reset thing which got it to work again for some reason; whatever the stuffup was, it can't have been too bad because I don't have a paperweight instead of a router. The downside of my router working again was that in the face of "oh em gee, I'm gonna have to shell out $100 for another one", I forgot to secure my wifi after the reset. Wonderful, I'm only about ten days into my cycle and I've already had all my bandwidth leeched. Now I get to spend the rest of the cycle on a 64k shaped connection. Lovely. 20:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh, I guess you'll have to put up with pr0n that doesn't move until the end of the month. Can't you just go and beat up all your neighbors who nicked your bandwidth? 11:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Books
Has anyone read Snake Oil 101? I came across it on Amazon and wondered if it was any good. 20:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems an odd topic for an author who writes mostly about art.  21:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Humorous BON wandalism
Are they trying to send us a secret message? 23:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that the random junk appearing from a range of IP addresses? Been wondering if it's even worth vandal binning them, since I assume they're hitting proxies or using Tor, so probably not worth playing whack-a-mole with them? -- 23:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC; stupid ISP) I usually only bin the IP if it's used for vandalism more than once. -- Nx  / talk 23:57, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I figured those were some kind of bot, since they were inserting random nonsensical messages that looked like they had been cut and pasted from various websites. 23:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * On second thought, maybe not. 00:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Schlafly quote generator got a friend to visit us? 00:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We have had worse. Ignore it, they will get bored eventually. 04:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Has this come up yet?
I am having trouble tracing this story to get down to whats going on. tmtoulouse 07:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just sounds like the anti-vaccination crowd jumping on anything they can get their hands on. 11:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, speaking of vaccines. Someone forwarded this to me. Wondering what people think about it. The Cochrane Review that it cites can be found here - I find it noteworthy that, despite mentioning it and extensively citing the author as proof that vaccines are a "cult-like" scam, they didn't link to it even though they have linked to a few other things (although these are glorified adverts for someone's book). 13:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Griffin on Question Time
Discussion here by the looks of it... 11:56, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

WND poll fun
From here. Ok, so the charge is to "[s]ound off on Sunstein's call to abolish government sanctioning of marriage". What I would consider the "libertarian" option ("Marriage is a personal commitment - government has nothing to do with it") is sitting at 4%. The backwards-ass, anti-libertarian, fear mongering option ("A strong institution of marriage and family is an antidote to nanny-state government - no wonder Sunstein wants it marginalized" - i.e., stop the government nanny-state with government nannying) is the clear winner. I absolutely love these people. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 12:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... attacking WND with a vote bot would be sooooo worth it. Immoral and wrong, but certainly worth it. 13:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's crossed my mind. You could probably get a mention on the front page out of it too. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 13:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, on second thoughts, the last thing we need is adding fuel to the persecution complex fire... Still, one might just be worth it. 13:17, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know if their persecution complex could get worse. "Soundoff: What do you think of internet terrorists' attempts to silence conservative free speech?" Can you imagine the options? &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 13:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I can imagine, but I don't want to. 13:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Logic dictates that all WIGOs should be consolidated into a singular portal
11:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Death penalty or not?
Posted this on Aces page but thought it could be of greater interest. Its 17 pages but well worth a read. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann/ Rad McCool 09:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * All civilised countries have stopped using the death penalty. Bob Soles 09:57, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Whelp, fuck. -- 16:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Vodka is for drinking, not for...
10 things vodka is good for besides drinking--Thanatos 02:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever you're linking to isn't there anymore.  18:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Selling water
Round the Horne on BBC7 (Repeat from 1967! repeated @ 12:00 & 19:00 today) had a skit on the ridiculous idea of selling water on TV ads. If they could see it now! 08:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh bona! Mr Horne, bona. I listened to RTH with my parents when I was too young to really appreciate the late, great Kenneth Williams. Bob Soles 11:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ditto. That and the wonderful Jest (or was it just?) a Minute.  Psygremlin  11:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just A Minute is still going on (and on, and on...). 11:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Teh flood gates are Breaking. ORLY?
Star Dentist ORLY TAITZ Pulls a Andy.

''You can see that the Google search shows 4,390,000 articles about omnipotent current speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and 4,550,000 articles about Eligibility attorney Orly Taitz. They can’t hold the line, the flood gates are broken, the truth about Obama’s illegitimacy to presidency is pouring into main street, the public is rising against this puppet of the Wall street, against the Kenyan usurper, the minutemen are rising.''

http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=5221

Boy, If CAPS LOCK DAY ever need a mascot...


 * Why does she refer to herself as Orly Taitz Esquire? I was brought up that Esquire was the male form of Miss. Bob Soles 14:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's what some very pretentious lawyers call themselves. Andy does it, too. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 14:04, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe it's a US thing as I've never seen it in the UK and the only people who seem to use it are lawyers when writing to their clients (in my experience). Originally I thought Any was just being pretentious when he put Esq. after his name but looking it up on Google it appears to be general practice for US legalites. I followed up on that as one of the things that my father taught me was not to use pretentious titles. One of his pet hates was people who insist on being called "Mister" or introduce themselves as "Mister Smith" as if mister was something special. Consequently I always give my full name when people ask rather than saying "Mr. Khant". (Mr.) 18:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's just considered pretentious and vulgar to use that sort of thing unnecessarily in the UK. Hence why we were all "Andrew Schlafly Esq.' WTF?" And of course, people only use them when they know they're meaningless, hence why very few Profs or Docs use their titles unless they come from diploma mills and just want to sound fancier than they are. 19:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Bryan college
Just glancing at this place ('cause that's where this guy went) and I'm reminded of:
 * "I'm not applying there."
 * "Why not?"
 * "I looked at the prospectus & there's not a black face to be seen."
 * "Hadn't realised you were so principled!"
 * "Oh, it's not principles; but I wouldn't go to a place that can't afford Photoshop."

Was it someone on here who said it or have I read it elsewhere on t'web? 18:30, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In their revolving header gallery (3 of 8) there is a fairly attractive lady of colour. Tokenism? 18:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I must have a blind spot: I'm still not sure she's not white. (could almost be a young me!) 18:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * She ain't white. But she's real fine. 18:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess they could have found someone with darker skin-tone. 19:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect any place with a bullshit major such as "origins studies" might have diversity issues. Sterile

Oh boy, this is a good one.
For the Star Wars fans among us... 04:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC) 
 * Forgive me if I don't roll on the floor in fits of laughter, I guess it must be an age thing. (From someone who saw Star Wars on its first release at the Odeon, Leicester Square.) 07:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Scienceblogs is down
Anybody know what's happening? Corry 14:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't they upgrading because of problems with the commenting? 14:56, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I am assuming. Also I am assuming that they intended to perform the upgrade in the middle of the night and it's taking longer than they thought.  The webpage is a bit of a mess.  Corry 15:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

RandomSelection
I've modified Extension:RandomSelection (the thing) so that it doesn't disable the cache. This means that random stuff will remain the same until you purge the cache of a page. Your signatures will still work as expected (see this), but they won't change when you refresh the page (unless someone else has edited or purged the page). For cases when you want a refresh to produce a new random option, you can use the uncached parameter (e.g. the casino). -- Nx  / talk 18:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Monty Python on Jimmy Fallon
I just realized no one mentioned this and I thought some might enjoy - 4 of MPFC (Jones, Gilliam, Cleese, and Idle) on Late Night With Jimmy Fallon from 10/14/09. If parts 2-4 don't come up in the related videos box, I think just changing the "part-1" in the url will keep things moving. 23:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC) Nope:    are 2,3, and 4. Two more links in a moment... 23:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll have a looksee at this tomorrow. How come Michael Palin wasn't on? It's so sad Chapman died cuz - apart from the fact he was still very young - he was probably my favourite if I had to pick one. 23:37, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * EC) Recently read Graham's biog. Happy & sad all in one. 23:37, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * @ Super: apparently Palin & Cleese aint the best of mates. 23:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's a shame. I just looked at the first video briefly and JEEE-ZUZ, Eric Idle looks nothing like in the shows (although the first one was broadcast forty years ago). 23:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Palin was travelling, pity that. Wheel of Carpet Samples part one part two  in a bit .  There's also some Bright Side of Life  bit to come .  These are pigs, they load slowly, but I couldn't find better BW versions at utoob.  23:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There was a documentary (called Monty Python, the Lawyer's Cut) shown on IFC all week about MP, so 1 hour a night I was in heaven (figuratively). They'd follow up each episode of the doc with either Holy Grail, Life of Brian or Live from the Hollywood Bowl.  Good stuff.   01:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Time travel
It's one AM; in an hour it'll be one AM. That is all. 00:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * See? 01:04, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Snoring is deadly
So I was reading Fox news (I often do to get a dose of "OMG OBAMA MARXIST COMMUNISIM!") and came upon this. If Fox were really really a news website would they have side banners for this kinda crap? AceMcWicked 01:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The snoring thing? Are you saying they had an ad up for it?  As much as I hate to defend them, online news sources do have to pay for themselves somehow.--Mustex 13:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind Ace, we used to have ads for all sorts of madness before Trent stopped using them. 13:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sneezing is also deadly. Totnesmartin 14:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone seen this nutball shit?
I know Ann "Horse-Face" Coulter is a loon but this takes the cake...AceMcWicked 21:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * John Wilkes Booth was hardly a liberal. Timothy McVeigh belong to a far-right Christian Identity movement. 22:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Who was the guy who shouted her down and said "YOU are a hate crime"? I want to shake his hand and tell him that next time around he has my blessing to break her already deformed nose. If you want something deliberately inflammatory while simultaneously outright wrong, you can't go much further that that bitch. 11:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I know I'm in the minority on this, but I think its still somewhat open to interpretation whether or not Timothy McVeigh was a racist. Sure, he read and sold The Turner Diaries, but that book was a mixture of extreme racism and extreme anti-gun control, and there's no question he was against gun control.  Also, according to his wikipedia page last time I checked they interviewed his family and former roommate who said he was pretty much indifferent to racial matters.  Granted, he certainly wasn't marching for Civil Rights, but I'd be willing to buy that he was so anti-government that he just ignored everything else (still, that hardly makes him a "liberal").--Mustex 01:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Too many YouTube transclusions?
I don't know what others think about this, but personally I think that YouTube transclusion thing is getting used waaayy too much here at the Saloon bar.

I can see its advantage in a few RW articles where a video is really relevant, but in the bar it's just seems like an attention-hogging waste of space. In a lot of cases the threads that start with a video don't provoke much of a discussion anyway (just look further up this page) but they take up more space on the page than a lot of other sections. Can't we go back to just posting links to YouTube?

Alternatively, just put one video up at the top of the page, as a kind of bar-room TV, and change the tape periodically evey few days. That way if people want to comment on it, they can start a discussion below, but if they don't, it would be easy to ignore, like the jukebox.

Any thoughts? 10:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * One YouTube transclusion is one too many. 10:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I will never open this page on my phone or laptop. When I asked Trent to install this extension it was more to look at clogo and rebuttals on YouTube a la Banana fallacy. A link that says "check out this video here" is just as effective and doesn't cost us nearly as much CPU time and bandwidth. 10:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That was the original intention, but like any novelty feature, it'll get overused. Linking to YouTube is much better anyway as with the embedded things you can't use YouTube's features like ratings, comments or the "see also" bits. If some one wants to exercise AUTHORITA and cut them down, that's fine by me. 11:01, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you have a good point, links are the way to go. 14:31, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have exercised authoritae -- Nx  / talk 14:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ye gods, you'd think we were living in an age of 800bps modems, not an age where everyone wanders round with a 1.5Mbps+ broadband connection in their pockets. What exactly is the problem with putting a video on this page? I don't get it. The flash is always cached, so if you don't click play it doesn't take any time to load. -- 16:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny, I seem to remember that the main point of your complaint about my old sig was that the 5 people who don't have decent browsers wouldn't be able to tell who I was. 17:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Screenshot-System Monitor.png've never reached 500 kbs. I dream of a decent broadsband connection. I'm downloading a 863 MB file now - it's varying between 3 & 11 hours estimated. 17:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not the connection speed that's the problem, it's flash itself. -- Nx  / talk 17:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

UTC)
 * Of course when I was a lad we had it tough, my first modem was 1200/300 baud. (Does anyone even use that term any more?) 19:10, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand. Between me going to bed at maybe 130 this morning and staggering back from brunch someone managed to discern consensus of the mob and disable embedded YouTube videos. WHAT THE FUCK. Issues like this don't get raised and resolved within 12 hours. This is an issue that could much more effectively been dealt with by discussing a policy change rather than enforcing a small number of users' will by fiat and without anything even remotely approaching adequate consideration by the community at large. I agree that embedding videos should be done sparingly on high traffic pages for any number of reasons including those mentioned. But what I do on my userpage or post on my pals' talkpages is none of your fucking business. Don't like embedded videos or my taste in electro and hip hop? Ok then make a point of avoiding my userspace and Ace, Human, Rad, etc's talkpages. This situation was handled really poorly. 17:36, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the saloon bar -- Nx  / talk 17:49, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nx, please fix embedded video pending a real consensus on the issue. A policy change is always preferable to removing functionality from the wiki. 18:08, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I already have -- Nx  / talk 18:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Body piercing
While I am too old to really appreciate the aesthetics of pierced tongues/nipples/labia/foreskins/clitorises surely these vegetarians are just going way over the top. 19:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC) P.S. Apologies for another Telegraph posting.
 * It's not natural to eat animals, but it is to shove assault rifles through your cheeks? 19:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I liked the dude with the coils of wire. 19:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd almost call Photoshop on the whole thing, but I've read enough issues of Bizarre to know that this shit really does happen. 20:10, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My word. If that's what the vegetarians get up to, I wonder what the vegans do?--BobNot Jim 21:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've seen some pretty bizarre piercings before, but these are way more over-the-top than any I've seen in person. I'm pretty sure they aren't photoshopped, but....wow.  01:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Who's good with Spanish?
Hey, I'm a big fan of the Spanish version of Dracula (in 1931 it was cheaper to shoot 4 versions in different languages than to dub Lugosi's version, only the Spanish and English versions survive, and I think the Spanish version was better in every way), but I was wondering whether or not the Count speaks Spanish with an Eastern European accent. Based on these clips could anyone tell me? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8txyRhZ-o9c --Mustex 00:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem too out of line with the Spanish I usually hear, except when he says "Dracula".  01:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you are familiar with european Spanish as spoken in Spain but it sounds OK to me. It is perhaps a little over-articulated but I'd guess that that is in keeping with the times and the nature of the film. It would have been interesting to hear a few more of the other actors speaking in Spanish to see if they spoke in South American versions of Spanish.--BobNot Jim 07:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Faux News Comments
I often read comments on Fox News stories in order to get angry/depressed/giddy with laughter. This one I found really takes the cake however..."Odumbo has nothing to offer so he resorts to this kind of smear. What else did you expect from an empty suit with a record of voting 'present'? Odumbo blows dead goats.". WTF? AceMcWicked 03:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess someone is blowing off steam again--Thanatos 03:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I want one of those
Also from the Torygraph - Dyson's latest invention, the bladeless fan. 19:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fuck that asshole and his crazy-awesome inventions I can't afford. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 19:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny time of year to launch a fan. Aylesburymartin 19:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw that a while ago. Hasn't it got a fan in the base to give the airflow a start? "The Air Multiplier works by sucking in one unit of air at the base, and pushing it out at speed through a thin gap in the fan's ring." I don't think it's what it sort of claims to be. (bernouli(?) effect springs to mind) 19:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it seems like it changes the place where the fan actually is. It's not like it's some other mechanism such as a screw. Like the AirBlade, that wasn't really anything new, it was just a normal bloody hand dryer with the power cranked up to 11. 19:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * He's really hung up about all this buffeting from a normal fan. I hope I don't start to notice it. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 19:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My (many) fans often buffet me, sometimes I can't walk down the street unbuffeted - bloody paparazzi. 19:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If I can't have your autograph then you could at least throw me some crumbs. 19:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a buffet if it's only just a salad bar. --Kels 12:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Last minute holloween costume ideas
I need some. Preferably in the next 8 minutes. Thanks. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 21:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Last year my 11th hour Halloween costume, believe it or not, was Alger Hiss. I just dressed as 50's as possible (suit, thin tie, fedora, cigarette) and wrote CONFIDENTIAL on a manila folder with random papers in it. Some people actually figured out who I was.
 * I was really hammered before going to this halloween party a few years back, cant remember what I on but I remember hunting around my bedroom (which was a fucking nightmare of mess) and ended up grabbing some of the filthy porno I had lying around and tying it to my chest with a network cable. My costume - Internet Porn. Thought it was pretty clever for guy who was barely functioning. AceMcWicked 21:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is a sheet with a couple of eye-holes too obvious? 22:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, you don't want to show up at the party in the same outfit as Ed Poor. 23:42, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the lost camper. Some dirty jeans, a dirty coat, a hat and a flashlight, maybe a little fake blood and your all set--Thanatos 22:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hype how you will be a ninja, or a pirate or a hacker or some shit, then come dressed as a Catholic cardinal. When people start going WTF?, scream at them "NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!111!1!1!".  Lulz should insue if British people are nearby  -- 03:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

A sheet with three holes - one at the crotch. You're an Orthodox Jewish rapist ghost.--Tom Moore fiat justitia 03:39, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Last year I shaved my head, added some fake blood to my forehead, and became GG Allin. This year I'm trying Captain Lou Albano.  Couple of rubber bands, a Hawaiian shirt, and a graying wig.   14:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Do what I did in my freshman year. Get a decent set of clothes that you would usually wear, and go as one of the pod people. Extra points if you can set up squirting green 'blood' to compliment the ensemble. -- CodyH 12:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Naked Man Arrested in his own home
I know that I've made it pretty clear I think theamazingatheist is a jerk (I'm not alone, anon's targetted him too), but this is one of his good videos, and it makes a good point about how ridiculous this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaE0uathXJA&feature=sub --Mustex 01:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nudity is generally overrated. It's the covering up that exacerbates and emphasises the effect of nakedness. On a nudist beach where everyone is naked then nobody gives a damn. In fact the sight of most people naked is distinctly nonsexual. All that Adam & Eve with their fig-leaves crap only serves to draw attention to nakedness when it's the most natural thing in the world. Humans are born naked, and every other creature on this planet is naked for their entire lives, yet somehow our societies have inculcated the belief that this is a "bad thing". Bollocks! - from someone who occasionally also wanders around the house au naturel. 19:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting actually. When did nudity start becoming unacceptable? Is there even anywhere in the Bible which condemns it? I've never read it. 20:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is another one on the subject. Probably the funniest thing Argumental has done yet. 20:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * SuperJosh asks: When did nudity start becoming unacceptable? Is there even anywhere in the Bible which condemns it? Nudity probably became unacceptable when people started to get cold after leaving Africa. In some nice warm countries nudity only became unacceptable when European missionaries told them it was sinful. According to the hallucinations of some bronze age shepherds Adam and Eve became ashamed of their nakedness after being convinced to eat an apple by a talking snake.--BobNot Jim 21:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I generally don't like being naked in my own home, partially because I don't like being reminded of my love handles, and partially because I have a somewhat irrational fear of anything sharp/rough coming into accidental contact with my genitals.--Mustex 00:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I loathe nudists with a deep passion. Genitals flopping everywhere. MarcusCicero 10:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers Bob. Full frontal nudity? Yes, I'd do it if it was relevant. 20:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Can I be a Sysop?
Any of you cunts want to make me a sysop? MarcusCicero 10:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Given your penchant for deleting stuff when you're angry, perhaps not. I did it once but I think I got away with it Totnesmartin 10:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * When have I deleted stuff when angry? MarcusCicero 10:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Having a potty mouth shouldn't stop you being a sysop - but it does. Bob Soles 10:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My potty mouth is tongue in cheek. Cunt. MarcusCicero 10:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Umm... no. 12:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't. But your brother could if he wanted. RaoulDuke 12:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC):Get a fucking life MarcusCicero 13:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't see the harm in letting MC be a sysop. Then we could block him to vent our frustration. ...and now you're all going to think I'm a sock of his... 12:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it'd violate the "mostly harmless" rule. But then again, there's nothing a sysop can actually do to irrevocably bork the wiki. 12:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Apart from deep burning stuff. 12:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would I 'deep burn' stuff? Thats just hysteria. MarcusCicero 13:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * All deletions are observable and reversible by sysops, there's no such thing as "deep burn". The only trouble that can happen is when you delete pages with lots of revisions as that causes a slight issue and you need one of Nx's special restore scripts. 13:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can these scripts reverse a situation where someone deletes a page and replaces it with a new page, thereby wiping the change history? 13:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not how page deletion works. 13:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Crundy goes off to try it 14:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK, you do get a "View or restore 3 deleted edits?" after restoring the page, so the data isn't lost. Fair do's 14:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm convinced that I did something by accident once involving page moves, renaming and deleting (in some order) which could only be recovered by Trent going back to the database - and even then a little bit was lost. But I can't remember the details.--BobNot Jim 14:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm throwing in my hat to have Bob desysopped, considering these questionable practices leading to deep burns, topped off with selective memory about the details to prevent it. I sense danger. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 14:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Why would you want to be a sysop? It's boring. I've been a sysop for s while, perhaps a year, and I've only had cause to use my powers once and that time there were a horde of other sysops on hand to quell the vandal. Me!Sheesh! Mine! 13:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Go on, it's basically meaningless anyway. Broccoli 13:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Make him a sysop. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 13:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, give him another chance, and if he goes on a rampage then block him forever. 14:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've given MC the change. I've never had a problem with MC to be honest so he has my trust, as well as, from what I can see, the trust of a few others. So long as he stays on the meds and doesn't dick about, I'm more than happy to add him to the sysop list. 14:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "The Change"? When do the hot flushes start then?
 * Well that was a Freudian slip and a half... I'm sure that wasn't what I meant to say... 14:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Make that man a sysop like everyone else. Lots of knicker-twisting here, with the usual histrionics from the usual quarters. Its just a fucking webshite. Let him play too. If he fucks the place up, promote him back to user. What's so complicated about that? DogP Marmite Patrol 23:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Currently, he is. If we had just made him on and left it at that... Broccoli 23:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I conquer concur with DogP. Let him have his powers as long as he doesn't abuse them. Fucking hell, didn't we even demote RobS at one point? DickTurpis 23:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but are all you people fucking insane? For one thing, it always used to be the case that we'd never demote someone who asked to be demoted. That's an almost sure sign they're up to no good. Secondly, don't you fuckers remember what happened last time it was decided MC was mostly harmless? As if it isn't bad enough we have to put up with this little wankstain wandering around abusing people and fucking up articles, now you want to make him a sysop? For your next trick, will you be swallowing some live grenades? -- 06:24, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol. I love Jeeves. RW wouldn't be the contradiction in terms it is without him. And I must also give thanks to my fellow Irishman DogP. I go out of my way not to rile him (Out of some twisted kind of national loyalty) and it looks like he shares my vision of this place. Lookit, Jeeves is pathetic, let him whinge all he wants. There are two kinds of people on this place - liberals and autocrats. Ace, Jeeves, Susan, Thedictator, TOP, and Edgerunner are the autocrats. Ardmonikov, DogP, Genghis, Bob, Human and Broccoli the liberals. I'll write a book about it all some day. P.S- I still look at Jeeves mark one every so often. That parting shot is simply the most innane in the history of the internet. 'leaving and never coming back' is such an old trick but highly effective in notching up the drama levels. pity he came back though. 134.226.1.234 13:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously MC fuck off. Everyone you have listed has contributed more to this place in one afternoon than you have with all your bullshit and whining. I don't care what you get, you are too big of an ignoramus to actual be able to do anything destructive with it any way. With all your bluster you have done nothing more than annoy a few people and that is all you are capable of. As far as I can tell you are still having a cry that Susan said religion is bullshit and you got your little feelings hurt. Well boo fucking hoo. You can dish it out but when someone insults something you believe in you act like a petulant child. 13:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Something I believe in? Do you really think I'm a conservative Christian? I wouldn't expect a bigot to understand the difference between finding bigotry horrible because its bigotry, and finding bigotry horrible because its personally offensive. 134.226.1.234 13:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Quote
Heh, I'm liking this from David Thorne's twitter feed: "Creationists and Intelligent Design advocates are the same thing. Like a clown and a clown carrying an umbrella." Can we add it to the ID page somewhere? 14:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added it to the ID article as it wasn't totally overrun by quotes anyway (I like quotes, but one or two of our articles do it too much). I think it works well. Like "ID is creationism in a cheap suit" which I think is Dawkins but it may have its origins elsewhere. 14:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Daily Telegraph
For those who do not read the non-CP WIGOs there is a new one in WIGO:Blogs which is pretty much culled from our series on Internet Laws. We get a few linkbacks for some of them (but not all, even for those which are RW specific). 19:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 4 links in one article ain't bad. If any Telegraph readers come here though they'll probably have adverse reactions. 19:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point... Tell 'em Telegraph "CRICKET!!!" 19:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Who the hell was Rob Pommer? 19:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cracker? 19:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * @toast:If any Telegraph readers come here though they'll probably have adverse reactions - but at least they'll know how to make tea properly. Totnesmartin 20:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can we have a wikipedia article now? AceMcWicked 21:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I dare someone with some street cred on WP to suggest that. 21:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing, but remember the guys who were mostly against it (and Poe's Law) were pretty much all over it and had Trent banned for a week or something. I'm liking the comments, that one from "Steve Foley" is either taking it all too seriously (in which case I pity them) or trying to take the piss out of people who take it seriously (and failed, thus I still pity them). Still, some of the other proposals are pretty good. 11:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I love the fact Ken is now internationally famous. 12:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I let him know on his aSoK talk page. 12:36, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Aha, he responded. 11:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We need to get an article on Skitt’s Law. 13:01, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. If I knew they were going to do that, I'd have actually coined my own law, I definitely have one formulated. 13:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, I think WP's notability guidelines suggest that a site has to be the subject of an article. Still, an article like this clearly shows we're on the right track. Dreaded Walrus t c 08:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It probably isn't notable enough. Though, I notice that I really can't find any proper references to this "poetry" one that the guy who shoved it out of the WP article put in. It's certainly not commonly used. A few people in recent months have been like "oh, it's Poe's law about Edgar Allen Poe" but I'm convinced this is because for the last few months WP has topped RW on the Google search, and of course, WP has refused to acknowledge "our" Poe's Law (well, strictly, one of the admins on a power trip and a vendetta against Trent refused to let it in, I'm also partly convinced its the same guy who wandalised the article with the "stupid atheist blogs" comment). 08:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

<(UD) I guess most people haven't bothered to revisit this article but I notice that now there are two posts from PJR and one from TK. The PJR ones look genuine but is the TK one a parodist? 19:04, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Damnit, I wanted to add my own but the comments system seems to be broken now. Crundy's law: The aggressiveness and unreasonableness of an internet poster is inversely proportional to their grammar and spelling skills. 12:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The list has made it to Pharyngula now too. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 14:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If PZ coins his own law we'll have to have it immediately! You know, posterity and all that. 14:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol: "Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage." 21:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

one month down
I moved into my university accommodation four weeks ago today. Fortunately, we all seem to get along and have avoided killing one another so far. As for the following 7 months, only time will tell... 19:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've already started making plans for extreme revenge pranks. Broccoli 19:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Halloween next weekend. That'll be fun. The one girl in our house (technically there are two, but the other one never hangs out with the us) is one of those scaredy-girls, so freaking her out should be easy but highly entertaining. She'll probably try and strangle me in my sleep however. 19:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my friend had a kinky girlfriend who used to do that to him as well. 21:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's unsettling. 15:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright backwards?
Ok, I have a question concerning copyright laws that occurred to me when I was considering the name "Alucard" ("Dracula" spelled backwards). Ok, for those of you unfamiliar with the name, it originated in the movie "Son of Dracula" in the 1940s, starring Lon Chaney Jr. as Count Dracula, who used the name as a pseudonymn (if you're curious, the movie itself was somewhat confusing about whether he was merely A Count Dracula, and the son of the original Universal Dracula, or THE Count Dracula in a different continuity. He was simply called "Count Dracula" in the film, and the title seems to either be a holdover from earlier drafts of the script, or the result of some scenes being cut.  Production was so rushed during this era either is believable). In the last three decades "Alucard" has shown up in several works as either a traveling name Dracula uses (The Batman vs Dracula and arguably Hellsing), or the name of Dracula's son (Castlevania).

Now, here's my question: The novel Dracula is in the public domain, the movie Son of Dracula is not. Is the name Alucard in the public domain, or do these works have to pay royalties?

I could honestly see it going either way. On the one hand, the movie was the first time the name Alucard was used, but at the same time how could it be copyright infringement if in a Dracula-based work Dracula merely said "I can't use my real name...I'll just reverse it!" and his name reversed just happened to be the same as the name Universal used? Furthermore what if, for some inexplicable reason, someone decided to publish the book Dracula with all the text backwards so people could read it in the mirror (not saying it would be logical, just arguing legality here)? "Alucard" would be printed in the book over and over again because its "Dracula" backwards?

I could maybe see the argument that if a character named "Alucard" was Dracula's son (as in Castlevania) it would be copyright infringement, but then what if the son uses it as a pseudonymn, or its a cousin or nephew?--Mustex 00:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's no big deal. In Helsing, the main character is a vampire named Alucard, but is really Dracula. A name is hard to copyright. Two of my past usernames were those of anime characters (Tabris and Nate River). Characters can be copyrighted, but I do not believe names can be.--Thanatos 01:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, but I don't think your user names are a very good example, since you weren't deriving a profit from them.--Mustex 01:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but you mentioned both Castlevania and Helsing. They both use the name Alucard, and they make profits. Alucard is a name tied to Dracula, will always be associated with Dracula, but not exclusive to that one movie. Someone might have used the name Alucard before that.--Thanatos 03:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I was guessing that they might just pay royalties.--76.18.115.64 14:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And having been on a Star Trek forum (*shudder*) where everyone is fighting over who gets the username Captain Kirk, I can tell you that usernames really can't break copyright very easily. And of course, just mentioning or using something doesn't necessarily violate copyright - for instance, Space Marine is copyrighted by Games Workshop, but it doesn't stop people using the term many many times. They just can't create their own thing and use that name to describe it and then sell it. And I don't think the name Alucard would qualify for copyright, anyway. 12:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You can Register a Trade Mark, but that only protects it where there's likely to be confusion: Swan kettles & Swan Matches come to mind. Wasn't there a Mr (or Mrs) MacDonald in Scotland who was sued by (guess who) for calling his caff Macdonald's. Of course there's "To boldly go" which is copyright I understand. 12:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is. At least I can't find a mention of it being so. 13:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think claiming copyright on a single character name would be tough. (Trademarks are a different matter of course as they uniquely identify a product.)  Secondly "Alucard" was simply another name for the character "Dracula" - not a new character anyway.  Could I claim copyright on "Nazrat" if I wrote a new Tarzan story?  I doubt it.--BobNot Jim 13:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fictional characters and other items are an intellectual property and their creator can control use of such in perpetuity. [Warning:the following contains Dr Who geekdom] Terry Nation, for instance, got rich (one the very few tv writers to do so) because he kept hold of his rights to the Daleks. sometimes a show can't reuse a character because the creator charges too much for the right to use it. the was a big stink about the two blokes who created Superman as well, wasn't there?. So in a nutshell, there is copyright on characters. Totnesmartin 14:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Siegel and Shuster, the creators of Superman sold the character to National Periodical Publications (now DC Comics) for what, in retrospect, seems to be a pittance -- the grand sum of one hundred dollars. Remember, though, that was the Depression, and they were teenagers (or early twenties), so, while its nothing compared to what the character became worth, they thought it was a pretty good deal at the time. Flash forward about fifty years to the debut of the first Christopher Reeve Superman movie. Both Siegel and Shuster were getting old, in poor health, and flat broke. One was, in fact, legally blind. They did lots of media interviews that basically boiled down to, "we created this character, we'vo got no money, and there's a major motion picture that's about to make truckloads of money." DC was essentially shamed to putting them on a stipend -- about $20K/year at time (not huge, but not bad for the late Seventies). Its my understanding that DC increased the amount over the years, and they were able to, at least, enjoy retirement. Flash forward again, to the present. Both Siegel and Shuster are gone now, but one of their estates is fighting a legal battle over the rights to some of the other characters he created, most especially Superboy. Results are still pending in that case. Marvel Comics is in a similar battle with the creator of Captain America. MDB 13:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Sic transit gloria GeoCities
Today GeoCities is officially closed. Just sayin. Corry 23:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My totally embarrassing (and nearly a decade old) web pages are still there. Me!Sheesh! Mine! 15:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry -- if you want to create garish web pages with whatever you think looks cool at the moment and make someone who works in web design want to gouge his eyes out, there's always myspace. MDB 15:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That reminds me, I have a list of people's "personal" Audi sites on my Audi webshite that probably contains not a single working link by now... 19:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

And now for something completely different
Anyone read Unseen Academicals yet? I've just ordered it on Amazon. 23:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't feel it's one of his best; it's a bit like Making Money, as if he's trying too hard. On the other hand Nation is possibly the best thing he's ever done. Bob Soles 01:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I just never got into Nation. The writing style he uses in it annoys me. 14:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Whenever Pratchett fans get together and discuss which are the best/worse books there is always strong disagreement. My dad and I have pretty similar tastes but he thinks that Monstrous Regiment is one of the best, I cant get on with it. I really rate Jingo, he finds the portrayal of Vetnari all wrong. The only place where we all agree is that Eric is a disaster - cue cries of 'No, no, it's my favourite' Bob Soles 14:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've not read UA yet - it's on my Christmas Saturnalia wishlist. My favourite is still Small Gods, but I like almost all of his books. The only one I really don't like is The Last Continent. It spends the whole time pointing and giggling "see how clever I was working in yet another Aussie reference?" at you. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 14:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a few books behind (reading Monstrous Regiment at present, with mixed feelings) but really prefer his earlier books, which seemed a lot more spontaneous & original. I find most of his later ones too formulaic, & he seems to labour a few weak jokes too hard sometimes.  But I really like pretty much all of his Vimes / city watch books.   21:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I miss Rincewind. 22:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear
From the Daily Telegraph (amazingly): see rule 6 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6408927/Internet-rules-and-laws-the-top-10-from-Godwin-to-Poe.html Silvermute 14:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact, did one of you lot write this piece? RW is all over it (and Ken)! Silvermute 14:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * See the top of the page. 15:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * D'oh. Never post when over-excited at something you've just found is the message here, I suppose. Silvermute 15:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) This has been WIGO'd. 15:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, apart from Rule 34, which isn't mentioned here but is common knowledge, it is pretty much all ripped from RW. 15:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I've been looking at this for two days now
and I can't stop. Is there something wrong with me? Or is this totally fucking hilarious? &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 15:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, look at his little hat! 15:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure there is anything wrong with you but I think all these "funny" cat pictures are stupid and I have two (soon to be three) cats. So, if liking things that some random internet person thinks are stupid is "wrong" than, yeah, there is something wrong with you. Me!Sheesh! Mine! 15:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree Sheesh. Cats are capable of really stupid things without human intervention. My #1 cat jumped off my office type chair t'other day: the chair spun & the cat just moved vertically &dArr; instead of up to the desk. The followthrough: "I meant to do that" attitude was really amusing & not repeatable.
 * There's definitely something hypnotic about it. 15:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In many areas of life, I'm a reasonably sophisticated guy. I like good wine and fine food, appreciate literature and music, and can discourse on philosophy and metaphysics with my similarly erudite friends... but give me a picture of a cat with a silly caption and I'll giggle like an idiot. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 15:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * True, true. We're all immature gits deep down. 16:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm an immature git up front. 21:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

But is he taking it off or flipping it?? &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 17:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Need Help on Article of the Weak
Ok, I want to submit one, but the link seems to literally have spaces in it, so I'm not sure how to link. Anyone interested in helping me figure out how to link, do the following: Google "Vampire Research Society" (yes this group is serious), click on their website, and then follow the link labeled "Can Such Creatures Really Be."--Mustex 21:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Replace the spaces with "%20". 21:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this the page you meant? 21:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * K, I'm going to test it here: http://www.gothicpress.freeserve.co.uk/Can%20Such%20Things%20Really%20Be.htm  --Mustex 21:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It has autoplayed music, that alone qualifies it for AOTW. 21:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Does this mean my Userpage is now an article of the Weak? That would be interesting...  -- 22:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

My PC is more liberal than me
I use Firefox as my preferred web browser and every time I follow a link to a FoxNews article, Firefox up and quits.--Thanatos 02:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The mostly harmless criteria for sysops
There is a reason we have this criteria for sysops. Someone with technical knowledge and a malicious streak can actually do considerable harm to each other and the wiki with sysops powers. I am not going to go into details about how that might be done so as to not give any ideas. I am not weighing in on the discussion about Marcus one way or another. He has failed to capture my interest, and even if he does have malicious intent I think he lacks the technical knowledge to do anything more then annoying. However, the meme that everything a sysops can do can be easily undone by any other sysops with no lasting effect is not actually true. Hence, why there should be some level of a judgment call made when sysopsing users. tmtoulouse 22:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I'm not the one who makes any kind of decisions round here. 22:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok then. We can remove the most dangerous rights (editinterface, edituserjscss, bigdelete) from sysops. That would leave us pretty safe, no? -- Nx  / talk 23:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can we remove ActLikeAFuckingPrick as well? I think MC would probably abuse that one. 23:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't have root password to MC's brain -- Nx  / talk 23:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * (ECx2)Then I stand corrected and apologise for spreading said meme, I assumed (based on what we have written in the pages about being a sysop) that it just included patrolling edits, blocking and vandal binning users and locking/moving/deleting pages. If it is the case that sysops can do some serious damage, I think we need to start restricting sysop powers a lot more - and by extension, 'crat powers even further. There are users getting sysop powers within a minuscule number of edits these days, before they've even shown they have a proper interest in the wiki. Whereas about a year ago you almost had some time to get some edits in before getting it. While I absolutely trust Trent and Nx's opinions on how dangerous sysop powers can be if misused, if there really is a problem, then the solution needs to be applied universally, not just as an excuse to stop someone who has got under the skin of a few posters from getting it. 23:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur, it has been something I have been mulling around for a while. We are relatively safe because it would take someone with above average technical skills (and not just wiki skills but computers and programming in general) to really cause havoc and we haven't exactly drawn the ire of malicious computer programmers sneaking sysops rights on our site. However, the largest security issues can probably be cleaned up a bit and should be. I will discuss it with Nx, any changes shouldn't really effect anyone that I am aware of. tmtoulouse 23:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree (not that that means anything), and even if it did affect us I don't think most of us sysops would mind. I, for one, will not miss any of the powers you mention. 00:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume these changes would be quite "under the hood" as it were, so wouldn't affect our policy of sysopship. However, I have thought of one issue; namely revision-delete. We use this to hide personal info that has been incorrectly uploaded here. So all it takes if someone wants to get some personal details that they suspect are held on RationalWiki is to come here, make 5-6 posts on WIGO:CP saying "look at those morons, lOL!!!" and they'll get sysoped and be able to track it down (another negatively side effect of doing it within a few edits is that well meaning editors have been insulted and left because certain 'crats take the "demotion" joke a bit too far and start telling people to get out of their sight etc. etc.). I know we haven't had any personal info that is particularly useful up here yet but some things have leaked out and as Conservapedia gets more attention, the more likely it'll come under the eyes of the real arseholes out there who will likely try to hi-jack RW for their own purposes - and if Schlafly thinks he's being persecuted by vandals now, he has no idea what can and will happen if he continues to draw attention to himself and piss people off.
 * As you said a few months ago, we're passing through Dunbar's Number so things may get rocky and we might want to consider restructuring how we give out user rights, or at least put some more official guidelines on the sysopship demotion. 10:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added the ability for bureaucrats to hide a revision from sysops too. Although it doesn't show up on recent changes, you can see it here. -- Nx  / talk 08:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I defer to Trent and Nx for anything technical. I do stand by my other things I have written about sysop rights here. I think making it easy is the best defense against any malicious intent. When it becomes a chess-like game worth winning on something like CP, you are inviting trouble. When it is like musical chairs with one extra chair, there is no prize. Sysop rights is all about the means and not so much the ends for someone intending malice. 10:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I can assure you all that I don't have the first clue about how I would do any of the scary things you mention. To be fair I am not a vandal, I have never vandalised, and its only the most autocratic and mean spirited of members here who accuse me of being a troll. I don't really care about getting the powers, I asked for a laugh and deliberately provocatively just to see if it would happen. I honestly didn't think it would create a furore, though perhaps I should have known better considering the emotional and hysterical tendencies of the likes of thedictator (Geek with no life/possibly a virgin) and Jeeves (Unrepentant bigot and deviant) 134.226.1.234 13:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Although I totally disprove of name-dropping people and calling them arseholes like that, MC has a point. He is not a vandal and has made no malicious actions towards the wiki as a project or whole - a provocative little turd, yes, but that's mostly the fault of people who let themselves get provoked by it. 14:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I just have a minor correction. This is not a furor. Furors would include much more profanity, some all caps posts, perhaps some lulcatz pics and a liberal application of that take a breather template. This is about as melodramatic as some collection of us deciding what to have for lunch. Me!Sheesh! Mine! 14:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Neutering sysops
I took away several rights from sysops: Bureaucrats can do all of the above. They also get a big red warning when deleting a page with more than 2000 revisions. The irrational numbers usergroup which I created specifically for Pi has editinterface and bigdelete, so don't go around giving it to random people. Promotions to cratship should take into account these changes. I don't think we need to introduce a third usergroup, either between sysops and crats, or above crats, but I'm open to suggestions. -- Nx  / talk 07:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Editing the MediaWiki namespace (editinterface). Unfortunately there's no way to distinguish between pages that only allow wikicode and those that allow arbitrary html.
 * Editing other users' css/js files. (editusercssjs)
 * Deleting pages with more than 2000 revisions. (bigdelete) I don't see why we'd ever want to delete a page that has that much revisions anyway.
 * I think there's a decent compromise there, it removes crap that sysops could use to bork the wiki but would never use for legit reasons anyway - ergo we can still do the "sysops for all" thing. 'Cratships I think need to be seriously considered in the future. We need to give it to the guys who would want to and need to use the stuff that comes with it - I don't think the "been here a while" cuts it entirely. Plus, if we cut down on crats, there's less chance of people being sysop'd on sight and get abuse from the demotion joke before they've even realised what it actually means. I definitely don't think we need any more groups; there's a few technically minded individuals with access to the server and that certainly doesn't want expanded or given out "just because you've been here even longer". 11:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've only just turned up and I demand all the above-mentioned rights NOW NOW NOW Real first name and last initial 13:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I propose that people who ask for sysops status should be disqualified for the position. Just a suggestion :P AndroidWe are all machines 15:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I propose that people who propose that people who ask to be sysops shouldn't be sysops shouldn't be sysops. Real first name and last initial 17:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Vandal
Why are people at MIT wandalising us? C:\>IPCity.exe 18.251.5.130 Country: US Region: MA City: Cambridge Postal: 02139 Latitude: 42.364601 Longitude: -71.102798 Metro code: 506 Area code: 617 ISP: "Massachusetts Institute of Technology" Organisation: "Massachusetts Institute of Technology" Map: http://atlas.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?latlongtype=decimal&latitude=42.364601&longitude=-71.102798 I would have thought that the students therein would have more of a brain? 23:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Those contributions were criticism, not vandalism. And tracing users like that is kinda creepy. RaoulDuke 23:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You can never tell what those subversive liberals will do to us, can you, TK. -- 23:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah... let's not do this kind of thing. Corry 23:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, using a simple IP lookup on vandals is creepy. If they want to remain anonymous then all they have to do is create a sock with no email address logged. And criticism is fine, as long as it's in the right place. Why not talk on the mainpage talk page, or here, or the CP talk page? 23:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you needed look up. 00:39, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it was interesting to see if someone spamming the crap out of the site was a CP editor. And look, MG is now talking to us instead of writing stupid messages on the nominations page. 00:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What I mean IP with the first number lower that 64 are class A networks, blocks of the internet so large you could read it off this comic. 00:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Umm, am I having a stroke or was that word salad? 01:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets try again. The internet is a finite sized thing. They (Al Gore probably) gave a quarter of it to the people that either, designed, built, or paid for it. You can tell their bits because their addresses which look like ###.###.###.### where # is a number, all have before the first dot a number strictly less than 64. 01:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So, weirdos have the IP address <64.0.0.0 Mask 255.0.0.0? 01:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * IPs less than <64.0.0.0 tend to be government or companies with defence links, Haliberton for example. If you see anything starting with a 48, that is Obama. 01:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I just had a mental image of Obama using his super-sekrit government Blackberry to troll the shit out of CP and other right-wing blogs after a bad day. Corry 01:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That is such a pleasant idea of the President vandalising CP because he is bored. Actually seeing as he has 16,777,216 IPs at his discretion he would be hard to block. He could have a special red laptop brought into to the oval office with a clean IP for his new sock. Reminds me of the time Ken blocked Oxford muttering something about Dawkins. 01:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I can image the exchange:

Obama-Rahm! Get me Andy Schlafly on the line! He's disabled account creation again! Rahm Emanuel- He's spped dial 2 on the red telephone, right between Putin and Brown. Obama- Thanks. Mr Schlafly? This is the President. What? No, I'm not a Muslim! Yes, I'm black. No, I do not have secret prayer session over basketball. Look, I know you're sore over the law review election, but that was decades ago! Can you just reenable account creation? Who? Jpatt? No! TK? Fine! *hangs up* Rahm! Get me Guantanamo Bay on the line! I need to speak to Prisoner #1827 ASAP!

Lulz. -- 02:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, criticizing the CP Awards on the CP Awards page is totally inappropriate. Call the FBI. And just because we can use IP tracers doesn't make it less creepy. RaoulDuke 00:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Its not creepy, its public information; people have a choice whether to register and hide behind an anoymous name to publicly broadcast their name. Running checkuser just on suspicion is creepy. The first is like someone taking off their clothes in a public place, the second is like peeking through the curtains into someone's bedroom. 07:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing creepy happened. People get led around a little too easily sometimes. 1. BON pops on as a BON contending he is the real MarkGall on the (likely fake) RW MarkGall's page. 2. BON posts a criticism of the CP Awards, as a BON. BON openly does these things as a BON because BON wanted any interested CP checkuser to see his IP address (and abuse his authority by checkusing an offsite IP address). 3. An editor posts BON's IP whois trace. That's what you get when you post as a BON. Big deal.  16:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Constructive Mouse Wiggling
This makes you feel good and you're helping reach a target too. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 15:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hee! like it! 15:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't had that much fun slapping someone across the face since my first relationship. 15:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I slapped him to the beat of "Guns of Brixton" by the Clash. 15:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm up to 400 now over about three sessions. I was thinking that this plays into their persecution complex a little, but really, its totally tame compared to the shit that was made against Blair and Bush (back in the day). 16:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 500! 20:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ONE THOUSAAAAAND! -- 21:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Show off. But since I got home, I tried it with my graphics tablet and I can almost do it with a proper slapping gesture and it picks it up. Now we just need to find a nerd to port it to the Wii... 21:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

OOPS: After watching the build up to Question Time on TV, we wanted to see how people felt about Nick Griffin, so we put up an application called Slap Nick Griffin.

The experiment has attracted 20 million slaps, which we think is enough, so it has now been taken down. 12:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Current Private Eye cover is a "Free Cut-Out-'n'-Keep Halloween Novelty: A Nick Griffin Horror Mask. 12:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And a particularly scary picture of him it is too (although it's tricky to find a non-scary picture of him). Shame about the website though. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 12:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Taking a break
I've got some "personal" "stuff" going on and it's affecting my wikimanners (ask ListenerX), so I'm de-bookmarking RW and WP until I get my shit together again. I don't know when that'll be. I love this place but I'm not right for it at the moment. Totnesmartin 19:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, come back quick and I hope everything works out for ya. You'll be missed. AceMcWicked 19:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I wish you a safe return to the wiki. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 19:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry to hear real life is intruding Martin but I know what you mean. Hope you get everything sorted soon and come back the dollhouse. 20:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Best of luck mate, make sure you don't come back until you're ready. 21:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Take care. See you soon.   21:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, take a break and give it a rest. It'll do you good. 21:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Bye, come back as soon as you can. I should take a wikibreak too, but my previous experience shows I don't end up taking the break. 21:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Best to you Mr.Totnes.  Be well.  DogP <font color="#993300">Marmite Patrol 05:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a good break - but please don't be away too long. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 05:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey Martin, you bitch, I wish I had chimed in earlier. Best of, especially in real life.  03:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Google needs to be dissappeared next.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHMZ_enUS306US309&q=100+-+99.9999999999&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Now I am sure this is a government plot to feed me corrupted data and get me fired. -- 22:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Rounding error? 22:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The answer is just 10-10. What's so hard about that?  -- 22:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely a rounding error at some stage due to using too many digits. It starts screwing up at 100 - 99.999999, and gets raptured at 100 - 99.9999999999999.  23:36, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Might only be using an 8 thingy floating point or something. 03:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you think that's bad, try adding 1.1 to 2.2 in Python. 14:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Random WIGO poll idea:
Besides the up/down arrows, would it be possible to add "good"/"bad" buttons so we can indicate if we think it's good news or bad news? --Gulik 17:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it'd have the homogeneity of a Fox News poll. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 17:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur, we tend to be a pretty non varied group around here. 18:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. It's like changing the polling criteria mid-vote. Who knows whether people are voting on the underlying item or the craft of the WIGO. 18:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Good/bad is pretty arbitrary, and I am against the idea. 18:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am against anything that hasn't been spewed from my own revolting orifices. Just another chapter in the long running saga of Ace vs. "Society", what ever the fuck that is. AceMcWicked 21:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Lonesome Roads McWicked ;) &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 21:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone has to do it, I picked up the gauntlet.. Ace "Lonesome Roads" McWicked 21:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So let me get this straight: because of your lifelong struggle with the rest of the human population, we can't put good/bad buttons on WIGOs? 21:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite and you are getting off lightly, I gave hell to the clerk at the Video Store the other week. Worthless fucker, who is he to tell me I have fines? AceMcWicked 21:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The one-dimensional arrows have caused me to consider carefully where I click more than once. Am I voting that this is a good thing or a bad thing? An interesting or dull thing? An inspired or a moronic thing? Or any other x/!x thing. Personally, I vote on a "Will I come back here?" basis. An interesting/funny/insane link or links gets a vote if it's likely to be interesting/funny/insane when I come back six months from now. Of course, opinions change so this isn't a perfect method, but it works well enough to serve. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 22:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow that's a complicated system. I just ask myself: Did I laugh? Did I facepalm or groan in horror? Is the WIGO written in a humorous way? If so, it gets a green arrow. If not, yellow or red.  22:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Me too. If the way the WIGO was written, or what it linked to, "amused" me, I vote up. If not, maybe down.  Or forgot what I was doing and stopped caring.  And if it was really fucking lame, I bitch on the talk page after voting it down.  03:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In a lot of cases (WIGOworld especially) it's what they call on Flickr "Interestingness" that leads me to the [[File:Wigovoteup.png]]. With WIGOCP almost anything they say or do is amusing also but here "Uniquity" comes up too - the constant repetition of some types of WIGO grows boring. 09:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To me, the "way it's written" is a non-entity. If it's crap, it can be re-written as WIGOs are Wiki-property. I always take it for "interestingness" and "relevance" - although with this criteria I usually prefer to not vote than to vote down. Toast has a good point about "Uniquity" that I think is very appropriate to WIGO:CP; "TK blocked someone" - booooorrrrring. "Andy wants to debate Richard Dawkins live" - oooh, this will be fun. 09:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Jinx's blog
I was looking at PZ Myers' dungeon, and I noticed a link to an anti-PZ blog run by our old friend, "penis-bone Jinx". It's the usual idiocy, trying to make Christianity look good and athism/science/everyone else look bad and having the opposite effect via sheer stupidity, but I love this entry. Yes Jinx, I fully understand why you prefer the latter. Idiots are always attracted to flattery more than honesty. It's the way of the world. --Kels 21:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Errrr I got a gotse. Nice one Jinx. Incidently I tried to comment on his blog a little back, nothing profane, and he did not approve my comment. AceMcWicked 21:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. 21:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like he's not accepting any comments at all these days. And goatse?  Seriously?  Sorry about that, I didn't check the link. Not surprising, he's unusually attracted to the idea of anal sex, perhaps Daniel1212 and 🇰🇪 should have a few...words...with him. --Kels 21:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah it were on his shockandblog website. I made a reasonable and nonhostile comment - nada. AceMcWicked 21:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I got blocked from Shock and Blog for laughing at his threat to report me to my ISP. Two months later and they still seem very uninterested. 22:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * They are just waiting for Jinx to say the word Π, then they'll drop the sword of Damacles which he has hovered over you for so long. AceMcWicked 22:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope that one of his beloved kids visits RW, stumbles across a link to daddy's blog, and then comes face to face with Mr Goatse's strained sphincter. Would be fun for them to see what daddy gets up to at the office. And yep, the boy is mad. He could just as well be reading Superman comics, preferring to believe that his city is kept safe by the man of steel. -- 22:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I for one hope that doesn't happen. Maybe in a metaphorical sense, yes, but really. You want to expose a kid to Goaste? 10:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theory Rock!
I can't believe this aired on television... 22:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's an awesome cartoon! 23:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I love how Lorne Micheals claimed that is was never aired again only because it didn't get a lot of laughs and didn't fit the flow of the show..... Gotta love a coverup. 23:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why didn't he just use the "laugh, dammit" sign they use for all the unfunny crap they do show? 23:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I wish I could comment on this, but they discuss my employer. 23:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My god...you're one of THEM!!!!@1! --Gulik 00:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)   :)

Browsers flamewar below this line
Some topic several months ago piqued my interest. What browsers does everybody use around here? -- 02:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I use IE I use Safari, I use Firefox I use Chrome I use Konqueror I use Opera I use my cell phone


 * We could just ask Trent or Nx for the numbers of each? 02:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Boring. I much prefer the chance to vote.  -- 02:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you could have saved this for next weeks pointless poll. 03:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, let the newcomers play with our toys. They're Shiny.  06:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You can only vote once? I use Safari at home, plus I occasionally use Firefox for the few pages that don't play nice with Safari. Plus, I use Safari on my phone. At work, I use Internet Explorer, mostly, plus Chrome when I'm at the home office and not on customer site.
 * Even if you asked preferred browser, it would depend on the OS: Safari for the Mac, Chrome for Windows. MDB 12:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Paf, all you poor "firefox" users should know by now that Internet Explorer is the superior internet browser. *runs for the hills* 13:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I use Firefox on my pc, & Opera on my cellphone . 13:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I probably use Firefox most, but I look down at my Quick Launch toolbar to see Chrome, IE, FF, Opera and Safari icons all looking back at me. I make a point of using all the major browsers thedo wikis attract FF users?se days so I don't become too much of a fanboi for any given one. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 14:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Firefox (or Shiretoko, as it insists on being called). 14:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The "boring" server log info. tmtoulouse 15:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Extrapolating wildly - active Ratwikians are big on Firefox - see the vote above - but our casual visitors reflect the wider use of IE. Bob Soles 15:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I use Firefox (with Greasemonkey plugins) on my Mac and Safari on my iPhone but couldn't vote for each. 16:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably because the people who just visit the site because of a link will reflect the wider internet community. The ones who stay to edit will be the sort of nerd who wants to stay and edit a wiki, and face it, nerds use firefox. 16:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at my teflpedia stats. I get about 2000 unique visitors a month and a vanishing small number of them edit. (Most of them left over from the RW summer vacation. Thanks people.) The strange thing is that slightly over 50% of them use firefox.  I can't believe that so many English teachers are techo-nerds though.  Or do wikis attract FF users?--BobNot Jim 19:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Any sort of Wiki-editing requires at least a small technical skill-set to enable the formatting of one's posts and contributions. This probably leaves three-quarters of all computer users high and dry. 20:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I also think that by this point people just instinctively know that when they use IE their computers break. I had to remove it from my mom's windows machine and give FF the IE icon because she simply didn't understand there was such a thing as another browser. She called the IE logo "the internet." But it doesn't take much to get past that, which is where I would think alot of FF users are starting from. 20:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

People still use Netscape? Yikes! Sterile 20:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I use Chrome and Firefox at the same time so I can access 2 of my Youtube or email accounts or whatever at the same time, though most of the surfing I do happens on Chrome, but on ad-heavy sites I use FF. I have Opera as a backup, Safari and SeaMonkey in reserve, and IE as the last resort. I would add Lynx (a text only browser) to the line up, but I can't get it to work. Not a problem though. AndroidWe are all machines 20:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Ares
Did anyone watch the Ares 1-X go up? Seems pretty successful so far. Shame it will probably all get canned in favour of blowing the cash on bombing dirty foreigners. 15:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There are some legitimate arguments for canceling the Constellation project. The US is trillions of dollars in debt, and NASA wastes an obscene amount of money each year. 21:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Bullshit. NASA's proposed FY2010 budget is $18.7 billion, or about 0.52% of the overall FY2010 federal budget. I'll grant that NASA doesn't always use its budget to the best extent that it could, but by no means does it 'waste obscene amounts of money'. There are many other much larger waste of money in the budget. Of course, Constellation is still probably not the best plan, but that doesn't excuse your point.--146.57.80.12 21:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think sending people into space is silly. To the moon, that was cool.  But the future of exploration is robotics.  The Mars Rover things were far cooler than anything the Apollo project ever did.  Keeping people alive over long trips through space is silly.  Robots can go to Mars, and even beyond, and come back with samples, or send data on samples, far cheaper than sending protoplasm and water and stuff, and getting it back.  Bonus?  No icky deaths of schoolteachers.  03:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And of course, the US military budget is $512 million a year, which IIRC doesn't include Iraq and Afghanistan, so, NASA aren't really wasting billions and billions are they? And the benefits of space exploration are more than just financial, I reckon that in the persuit of going into space, we can develop technology at just as much of a pace that we do when beating each other with sticks and trying to find a better stick. 10:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm very much in favor of manned space exploration/colonization. Off-site backups, baby. --Gulik 00:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I suppose we waste a lot money more on other things. But just the thought of launching rockets and stuff into space while people right here are starving seems awful. And yeah, backups are nice, but I'd like to see a perfected biosphere first. 00:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a zillion other useless things that money's spent on that could be stopped before Ares. <[[image:Soapbox.gif]]>Cigarette manufacture/sales comes to mind.</[[image:Soapbox.gif]]> We've got to keep science and technology advancing or stagnate - that's what being #1 primate's all about. 01:00, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I concede defeat. There are many, many things that can be cut before NASA. 01:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Old Catholic Church
Ok, now that the page on Sean Manchester mentions the Old Catholic Church, do you think we should do a page on them? I was thinking of making it a Fun page, something like this: "The Old Catholic Church is a splinter group from the main Catholic Church.  They broke away because they don't believe the Pope is infallible...on the other hand, THEY CHOSE A VAMPIRE HUNTER AS BISHOP OF ENGLAND!  They are more liberal than the regular Catholic Church, and allow female priests...on the ohter hand, THEY CHOSE A VAMPIRE HUNTER AS BISHOP OF ENGLAND! etc."--Mustex 15:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How many vampires has he bagged so far? --Gulik 17:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Depends on who you ask. He and David Farrant both claim to have bagged the Highgate Vampire single-handed (essentially accusing each other of fraud).--Mustex 21:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is appointing a vampire hunter stupider/weirder than appointing an exorcist or a faith healer? This is Christianity remember, they like that sort of stuff. Real first name and last initial 09:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, part of it isn't just that he believes in vampires, its also that his belief in vampires seems based on 1940s movies rather than folklore. If you want more than that, I'd say vampires are more testable than God or ghosts or angels or anything like that, if only because vampires are supposed to have a physical body that we could actually see, capture, and run tests on.  But yet, no one has ever found such an animated corpse.--Mustex 14:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody...who LIVED. Dun-dun-DUNNN!  :) --Gulik 00:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

New editors
This is an excellent reason for encouraging new editors. Many of us take existing articles for granted. Just sayin' 13:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * All new editors are trouble makers, we should disable account creation at random to discourage them. 13:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, we should disabled editing and account creation at night time to stop them. 13:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Or just block anyone who joined later than (plucks date out of thin air) February 2008? 13:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, you would block me then. Actually you should have blocked me, my first edits were shit and was an annoying little bugger. 13:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I know, why d'you think it took me so long to find the date? [[image:Kiss.gif]] 13:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we definitely need to be ready and able to alter and dump massive amounts of crap that are essentially left over from when RW was all about Conservapedia. 18:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * When was that? 21:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Revolution

 * To follow up on Armondikov's point, I honestly think that a complete change from the ground up is what RW needs. In other words, the sites ethos should be re-stated and the about section rewritten. This website has lofty principles (About holding authoritarianism to account, for example) yet never even comes close to touching this. But yet again this point will be ignored, lambasted as 'trolling' and will probably result in Ace accusing me of not complying with the wims of the majoritarian tyranny of the mob. Ah well. MarcusCicero 20:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure "revolution" is the right way to go at all. And the mission statement works fine, we just have a high proportion of editors who are more interested in some things than others. If RW's membership expanded, was maintained and wasn't distracted by Conservapedia, things would improve dramatically. There's no need for a "revolution" or to try and force it in any way. 20:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you know... we all want to change your head... 21:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with ArmondikoV on this one. The beauty of RW is that Trent left it up to us to make decisions on policy and direction. There is no reason to force people into making RW into something only you want it to be. 21:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * <Please to all enjoy les sanglots longs of the world's smallest violin playing just for MC.> --Robledo 21:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what MC? I think there is too much CP. I think we are falling short of our mission. Do you know what I do about it? I EDIT THE FUCKING ARTICLES!! I CREATE NEW FUCKING ARTICLES ON THINGS WE NEED!! I TRY TO ENCOURAGE (NOT ABUSE) OTHERS TO DO SO!! People would listen to you more about reforming RationalWiki if it looked like you were trying to improve it yourself, rather than causing problems.  22:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if MC came up with a writing plan for us.... 22:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have always felt Schlafly has a point, that the editors doing the most complaining are doing the least editing. However their are two crucial difference. 1) if you make lots of edits and you disagree with Schlafly he will call them unsubstantial and 2) you are cautious about editing a CP article as you can be blocked for adding cited facts if they don't gel with Andy's world view. As neither of those are an issue here, dive straight in. 22:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed with the differences. That's why I'd never even dream of berating someone for only commenting on WIGO:CP and nothing else (as much as such activity may irk me personally, people getting prominence with less than 1 in 10 edits in the mainspace pulls at my elitism gene). But actions really do speak louder than words and that's not just rhetoric, it's actually true. If you want to change RW, you can either A) ask someone to help who you know has a similar style and set of goals to you B) Suggest new articles on the to do page or C) Go ahead and unilaterally do it yourself (throw caution to the wind and damn the typos!) There's plenty of options and one of the best things about our (lack of) structure is that all these are possible and we're, as an entity, remarkably flexible and open. I think many of the criticisms are valid and do hold true, but a big song and dance that does nothing but point them out definitely won't cure it. 00:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * WIGO CP and the Saloon bar are great, they build community, it makes RationalWiki a fun place I want to come back to and see thrive. But as Armondikov said if you are concerned about the big picture, start filling in one of the corners. 01:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How can anyone possibly move forward when the tyranny of the majority demands illogicity and hysterical anti theist bigotry? MarcusCicero 09:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So it's everyone else's fault that you don't write much? Why can't you just take the saloon bar off your watchlist and get on with adding to the articles? Real first name and last initial 09:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As an agnostic deist (I don't see a contradiction in that and I am not going to explain my position at length because it is boring) I have never encountered this "hysterical anti theist bigotry" of which you speak. 10:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You have no idea what you are doing, do you? Could you please not embed videos, it wastes bandwidth. 13:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My my Pie you really are a bitter old charletan. Of course I don't know what I'm doing, I barely know how to use a computer. What is your issue and why on earth do you get so riled up? You remind me of Jeeves. MarcusCicero 13:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as free speech, we are paying for this you know? 13:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just link to the video. There is general agreement the embedding is overused.--<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore fiat justitia 13:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just link to the video. There is general agreement the embedding is overused.--<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore fiat justitia 13:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

BBC Encapsulates RW
This exchange just took place on The Restaurant - a new series from Auntie Beeb:
 * Voiceover: ...their mission, to encapsulate the true taste of Nigeria. And that needs some goat
 * A: Do you have any goat meat?
 * Butcher: No.
 * B: Next best thing. Do you have any tripe?

If you can't get goat, use tripe. I never heard a better definition of RW :) I'm including the link to dictionary.com in case the slang meaning of "tripe" doesn't translate...  –SuspectedReplicantretire me 20:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Kind of makes me want to edit the stub template: "This article doesn't have much goat, but it has the second best thing; tripe!" 20:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I like it! Probably a bit too obscure for general useage, alas. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 21:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No matter, it will be an inside joke for a year or two and then it will be template-worthy. 21:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Might work very well as the default "reason" on the delete template? (Lacks goat, has tripe?) Or is that a bit too nasty? 22:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Depends, but I don't think anyone really takes delete "reasons" seriously. I think MC could use it for ammo - and indeed that's what I was thinking of - because where RW fails its "goat" it puts out "tripe" and the metaphors get mixed and the infinitives get split and no one, not even the classics students, know what the hell anyone is talking about. 00:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * For those who can use the iPlayer and missed it... Here it is. Skip to about 7:20. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 05:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Flower
Well, despite being persistently pecked at by the chooks, infested with red spider mite, being shocked at a severe temperature change, and then getting red spider mite again, my Brugmansia somehow managed to flower this year. Poor thing. It's into the garage for overwintering in a couple of weeks. 20:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, house plant abuse. I wish I could say I haven't been there, but I have.  Sterile 20:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I love the plant. Unfortunately the red spider mite was the start of a series of problems. I had to put it outside to kill the spider mite, which shocked it due to the lower temperature, and then the chickens were left to munch at it, and then frost risk came so I brought it back indoors, and the spider mite came out of hibernation. Little shits. I love that damn plant. 20:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice... amazing it had enough energy to pop those out! 20:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The smell is quite intense at 5pm-ish as well (in a nice way). 20:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My only house plant is called "Miranda". I've no idea what she is but she was here when I moved in and was almost dead through neglect. She certainly looks a lot healthier these days. In case you're wondering, I called her Miranda when she was still nearly dead. I thought "To Be Admired" (it's a Gerund of Obligation in Latin - cf Amanda; to be loved) would inspire her to recover. Yes. I need a girlfriend. I admit it. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 21:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's nice that you managed to revive it like that though. I did the same with an African Violet that was as dry as a 21:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My Brugmansia is bigger than your Brugmansia. 22:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh god, it's like being back at boarding school. Get the ruler out. 22:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I had a a nasty experience on the juices of this plant. Jeeeeeeeeeesus. You're not planning to eat/drink this plant are you Crundy? AceMcWicked 22:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You ate brugmansia? Wow, not a good idea. Do tell, did you end up lying in a pool of your own piss crying with pupils the size of the moon? 08:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very bad idea, 3 days of bad. AceMcWicked 11:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 3 days? That's worse than bromo-dragonfly. 11:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Datura ekspert
I have six really big daturas (forty quart pots) and over-winter them in my basement. Some actually like a chilly climate for blooming. Try this: (if you can get them to flower over winter), take six or so blooms and place them the the bedroom afore turning in for the night...wonderful dreams. Do not eat the blooms or the leaves. That Would Be Bad. You won't remember it and someone might end up teh ded. Don't try to feed them during the winter, though some ex-laundry water might be a nice treat for them. 00:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC) CЯacke ®

Speaking of house plants, can anyone tell me how to keep my horseradish alive for 10 days without water? Broccoli 23:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume you'll be away? Provide it a magic reservoir that allows "just enough" water to percolate into the pot.  Set up a pan of some sort.  Fill a gallon or so jug with water and support it upside down a few mm from the bottom of the pan.  Place plant in pan so just a little water wicks up into its pot.  Voila!  23:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think horseradish will survive so long as the rhizome is kept alive...oh and what "human" said. CЯacke ®
 * I will never go near one of these bad plants again. Bad Bad Bad. AceMcWicked 00:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Put a bucket full of water in the center of your kitchen floor. Surround it with your plants. Cut lengths of yarn or twine sufficient to dip one end in the bucket and bury the other in several inches of soil. Use a clothes pin or binder clip to keep the yarn in place. Go on vacation. Capillary action will keep your plants alive. 00:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nutty's suggestion is as good as mine, as long as your yarn is sufficiently "water conductive". If pot is well drained, you can also set up a forced drip irrigation system.  04:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I don't have a pan big enough to put the plant in, but I do have string, a jug and a jar of plum chutney, so I've set up Nutty's method. Broccoli 00:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Try it out for a few days before you go and tell me how it works. I've never done it :) That was me talking mad-science. 00:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I leave in less than 24 hours. I'll see if it worked when I get back. Broccoli 01:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * EC) Horseradish? No bother: I always found that it was harder to kill than to keep. It's propagated by root cuttings anyhow so if it dries out just dig it up, chop the root  & re-pot as many as you want. Ten years ago I had an infestation of the stuff (don't get me wrong, I love the sauce) even repeated mowing didn't kill it. Eventually I sold the house & left the problem to the buyer!  01:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You keep horseradish as a houseplant? Actual horseradish and not wasabi? 08:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Horseradish... I don't mind chrain occasionally, but my wife has been addicted to horseradish sauce every time she was pregnant. She would eat the stuff till it was physically painful, really burning her eyes and nose, but just couldn't stop herself. Bloody fool. Fox 11:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Trials
Hrmph. The wife had to bring her files home for court today (they don't give you much of a life with her job) and one of them is for a couple who have been beating the shit out of their baby (ala Baby P style) and she had to look at the photo evidence. This included photos of a small baby with a massive black eye, and both eyeballs were completely red from burst blood vessels. The second was the case of a chav who was driving (UI) at about 80mph and smashed into the back of a vicar who was stationary at some temporary traffic lights. the vicar's car was crushed almost half way and he was pronnounced dead at the scene. The chav was fine. Therefore one can conclude that either: 1) God really doesn't exist, or 2) God is an asshole. I hope she gets them sent down. 21:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. I don't envy her line of work. I hope they get sent down too. 21:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This beating up babies shit seems to be getting more common. I don't have children myself and intend to keep it that way, but having been around various examples of combined genes, I can understand why people could occasionally get frustrated with them. Various friends and family members have admitted to me that the idea of giving their offspring a slap has crossed their minds more than once.
 * Okay, I think we can all understand that. Cases like Baby P(eter) and this one, though, really make you wonder about the people involved. I like to think that if I ever did hit a baby (I didn't enjoy typing that) out of frustration, that I'd be shocked into a realisation of what I'd done and do whatever was necessary to give it care. Whether or not I'd turn myself in, I don't know but that's a separate matter. The really upsetting thing about most modern cases is that the violence was prolonged and premeditated. The precise details of the Baby P case haven't come out (or rather, I haven't gone looking) but it appears that his parents stubbed out ciggies on his skin and used other long-term forms of abuse. That's not spur-of-the-moment. That's fucking sick.
 * [calms down a bit] The point I'm trying to make is this: is it another case of things like this being discovered more frequently and, ipso facto, being reported more frequently... or is this shit really happening more these days? I hope it's the former. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 21:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC) Sorry for the rant. Struck a nerve.
 * Don't apologize. If we get used to this sort of thing happening and just ignore it because it is familiar, we move farther and farther away from preventing it. 22:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just be careful when saying things like "This beating up babies shit seems to be getting more common". Remember the spotlight fallacy, selective reporting and cherry picking - we have (half decent) treatments of all three fallacies and eventualities. I still remember reading about stories where they've uncovered Egyptian hieroglyphics that say "ooh, kids these days" and mor realistically, I remember my mother saying how she walked back home after a night out in the 70s with her keys in her knuckles in case she was attacked and lets not think about how brutal street life was hundreds of years ago. The short story is; these might not really becoming more common, only the reporting and sensationalising of them. That said, I'm not defending any of it, I'm just saying have some perspective where it seems to be "worse than ever". The dichotomy of God being non-existent or a total cunt, however, I cannot disagree with at all - you'd have to have some very rose tinted glasses to disagree with that. 01:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes... I know. That's why I said "seems" and then asked the question at the end. I'm not saying violence against children never used to happen (Moors murders f'rinstance) but I don't recall hearing about this kind of torture on babies before. Is it purely reporting or is society getting more sick? –SuspectedReplicantretire me 05:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, silly me. These were commitals, not trials. The chav case (death by dangerous driving) is indictable only, so she just has to point out the charge and it gets sent to the crown court. She's trying to get the child abuse case sent to the crown as well, because the mags can only dish out a maximum sentence of 6 months, which is a bit short for beating up a baby over a prolonged period of time (the baby also has broken ribs and a broken ulna by the way). 09:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Music
Most of you probably won't like it, but I think this is pretty effing awesome. 00:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Deal or No Deal Australia psychic challenge
It's no substitute for Randi's $1 million challenge, but it's still fun to watch. Here's the youtube link. Enjoy the meal! 06:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could add it to the red link Deal or No Deal article. 06:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This video of Australian Deal or No Deal is much funnier. 11:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the sort of shit I had in mind when I added it to the list. Not to mention the other shades of special. 12:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

MJ
My housemate is a bastard. Last night he called me into his room and showed me a video of some guy walking around the late Michael Jackson's Neverland ranch - I hadn't heard this before, but supposedly there was a ghost of MJ caught on camera. Anyway, my friend showed me the video, except this was an altered version. There was an ominous horror music kinda thing going on in the background, then as the shadow passed in the distance which was supposedly the ghost, I dead corpse comes up on the screen, and as it tells you to turn the speakers up loud it screams at you. I predicted this about 10 seconds before it happened, having seen these things beforehand, but I still felt like punching my housemate. 15:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I got burnt by that very video, and felt like an ass because of it. Shoulda seen it coming.   15:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I had a house mate once who was kicked out of the Army for reasons that were never made clear to me - I think he was on disability for whatever it was wrong with him and he'd spend his days down at the airport video taping planes landing and taking off. I came home from work one day and he insisted on showing me his video of the day - "Here's a plane taking off. Here is one landing. Wait, heres come another!" I told him I thought it was great and wandered off but he got mad and shouted up the stairs after me "Well! I guess if you have seen one plane take off and land you have seen them all then!" Well, yes, you fucking nitwit. AceMcWicked 20:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Was his favorite song "Back in the USSR"? 23:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've only heard the DK version of that. Beatles originally wasn't it? 12:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Some 60s group, yeah. Might have been the moptops I guess.  20:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone else heard this?
That putting onions in your socks cures colds and the flu? My grandma used to tell me that her family did this all the time--Thanatos 02:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ever heard of "add new section"? 02:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC) (Just got pissed over an unnecessary EC)
 * I did press the button--Thanatos 04:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The top one or the bottom one? 04:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Putting aside a rather nasty attack from Human (everything ok mate? Here, have a Screwdriver, on me).  I had never heard of this before it showed up on Snopes' Hot 25 They say it is false (duh)  06:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I just got snitty because I got EC'd editing the section above on some Very Important Sports Event. 19:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Those old cures all seemed to depend on various combinations of onions, vinegar and brown paper. I am unaware of the curative properties of brown paper. Is it healthier than white paper? A modern update seems to be that eating curry cures a cold. The germs aren't supposed to like the heat. Real first name and last initial 09:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

My late cousin believed that if you had a wart, you should rub a dish towel on it, then toss the dish towel onto the roof of your home. His mother was not amused that he tossed one of her dish towels onto the roof... MDB 11:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In such a case you need to claim that it's your religious belief and people must repect it. 11:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You would be a bigot not to accept people throwing your linen on to the roof. 12:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What a waste of a dish towel. You're supposed to put some peas in a bag (same number of peas as warts), leave the bag on a path, and whoever picks it up gets your warts. Real first name and last initial 12:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No,no. You prick a hole in an ivy leaf or is it you wrap small stones in an ivy leaf; anyway, one for each wart and then bury the leaf in the garden. When the leaf is completely rotted away your wart will have gone. (BTW ivy leaves take a long time to rot.)  13:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Half a raw potato rubbed on t'wart & then buried. Also many uses for cow pats. 13:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * in passing: is there any truth in the "fact" that if you rub garlic on the sole of your foot, your breath will smell of garlic? 13:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very easy hypothesis to test. We need a group of volunteers, they each will randomly assigned to one of two groups, either one they will get garlic rubbed on their feet or a sort of garlic placebo and then we smell their breaths. 13:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I for one am nearly certain this would work. And what better place to store your onions anyway? I do have one minor aesthetic concern in that I would be worried that the onions would make my rather slim and elegant ankles look a bit lumpy, perhaps even veering in to cankle territory. I almost took a picture of one my ankles as proof of their natural beauty but my office mates would have laughed at me if I tried to hitch my leg in position of the camera on my mac book. You'll just have to take my word for it. <font color="#ff0000">Me!<font color="#649CD6">Sheesh! <font color="#6ff6633">Mine! 13:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The curry curing a cold thing is actually because of two properties of capsaicin: (1) It is an irritant analgesic used for neuropathic pain. In small doses as a topical cream it acts as a painkiller, therefore a curry will help your sore throat. (2) Has a decongestant action because of the burning sensation in the mouth, which clears your nose. So it does make your cold feel better, but certainly doesn't help it persay. 13:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, here you go, from the BNF: "Rubefacients act by counter-irritation. Pain, whether superficial or deep-seated, is relieved by any method which itself produces irritation of the skin. Counter-irritation is comforting in painful lesions of the muscles, tendons, and joints, and in non-articular rheumatism. Rubefacients probably all act through the same essential mechanism and differ mainly in intensity and duration of action." 13:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to put a stop to this right now, it's been going on here for far too long. The phrase is per se (Latin for "by itself") and not persay. . 16:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fucking hell, I can hardly speak English, let alone Latin. 16:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Irregardless, it is a mute point. <font color="#ff0000">Me!<font color="#649CD6">Sheesh! <font color="#6ff6633">Mine! 16:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The Welsh still have the best cold cure in my book. 1) Go to bed. 2) Hang a hat on your bedpost. 3) Drink whiskey (or fermented sheep's milk) until you see two hats 4) In the morning you will feel better (or have such a hang over, you won't care about your cold). -- Psygremlin  18:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * !"Department of Uncanny Coincidences". News Quiz (recorded 29th Oct Broadcast 30th Oct) The same thing was ascribed to the Irish. 20:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Wait a moment! If the curry thing is true, why can't we have curry on the NHS? Real first name and last initial 21:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough, you can have whiskey on the NHS. If you are admitted with methanol poisoning then they'll give you whiskey because the ethanol competes with methanol for alcohol dehydrogenase, and the methanol is excreted directly without being metabolised. That's the odd thing about methylated spirit: the antidote is mixed with the poison. 12:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Creationists are really bad at strategy
Hey, just decided to run the word "altruism" into fstdt, and was surprised that only 4 examples of crazy fundies using the word came up, and none of them were on the topic of evolution. I'm very surprised they haven't tried to use altruism as an example of "irreducible complexity" yet. I mean so many of their arguments revolve around presenting concepts that sound right in a few sentences, but require long explanations to counter. Just say "If we evolved by natural selection, why do we act altruistically, since helping others isn't in the interest of our reproductive fitness?" To an uneducated layperson, that makes sense. Then an actual scientist tries to explain kin selection, group selection, mutual reciprocity, altruistic punishment, and (probably most importantly for humans) indirect reciprocity, and the lay people are completely lost, and its easy for them to tune it all out.--Mustex 06:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have heard that argument several times before actually. It is not that unusual. 06:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's usually used as an argument against atheism rather than evolution. 10:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A lot of people can't tell the difference between the two. 10:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've always heard it used against evolution. Dawkins has quite a lot on the subject in (I think) The Selfish Gene. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 10:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Do they specifically refer to it is irreducibly complex, though? I've heard the "so how do you explain altruism", but never seen it crossed with IC. 13:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never seen it described as irreducibly complex. It's usually just "Any instinct for altruism is against an organism's interests so it would die out so evolution is wrong" sort of nonsense. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 14:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

If they do use it then why wasn't it on fstdt?--Mustex 20:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Quick Q
Any Russki speakers in the house? Используйте для пароля одновременно латинские буквы и цифры Fox 11:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * nvm, I think it wanted me to use both letters and numbers. Fox 11:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's correct. Wondering what site you are registering to. Not a Russian speaker myself, I'm sure Bohdan/Henry could help you, if he still exists. Editor at CPmały książe 12:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I like... "Russian" music ;) Filling in a few gaps in my extensive library =) Fox 12:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Always been a very big fan of bit torrent, but with the latest mutterings ("3 strikes and you're disconnected!") about P2P, I'm forcing myself to look to the Russian model of "wth? stick it all on RapidShare". Finding some rather pleasant rarities, too. Had to fork out £6 to get a 30 day RapidShare sub though: the queue time was just getting too long what with all those tight-arsed, skinflint "free" users clogging teh tubes. Fox 20:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Get yourself a sensible ISP. I did actually get a nastygram a couple of months ago for my torrenting activities, which my ISP forwarded to me for purposes of pointing and laughing. It demanded my internet be cut off immediately for the crime of downloading a movie. My ISP has the policy that they won't take any action without a legitimate court order, which makes you more or less bombproof since there's no way in hell the movie studios are going to take you to small claims court for this. It'd cost more than they could ever recover. -- 22:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's funny, didn't the RIAA do just that? 00:20, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe they did have a policy of instigating legal proceedings against college students and parents of juveniles who d/l p2p. Using the reasoning that these were the least likely to be able to afford to get legal defense. Meantime, in the UK. (More bollox from the totalitarian Neu Arbeit New Labour government.) Fox 00:30, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Ethics
A thought occurred to me today. From what I've seen, the Design Institute is willing to payroll anyone with any education in any field of science, relevant or not. It seems to me that if, after I finished my Masters in Anthropology I decided to approach them pretending to be interested in a job, I'm sure they'd be very eager to talk to me (assuming they ever hired someone like me I'm sure they would simply report my field as "Anthropology" and conveniently "forget" that I'm cultural, not physical. They'd probably kill for a physical anthropologist on their side). It seems that I could then arrange to have them "find out" that I'm gay (I'm not really), and wait to see how quickly they find an excuse to not accept me. If I did this, it seems to me that I could produce another smoking gun, proving that they're goals are religious and not scientific (if they were interested in science, what objection would they have to employging a gay man if he honestly believed in and was prepared to argue for design?). My question, though, is: would this be ethical? It would clearly involve two counts of dishonestly (posing as a creationist, and posing as a homosexual). Just wanted some feedback.--Mustex 23:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems to me, you think too much. Fox 23:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a trick for a journalist. Doesn't sound too non-ethical, either, not compared to purposefully writing rubbish for them for the money. Broccoli 00:08, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how anything positive could come from this endeavour. You've already said that they'll "find an excuse" not to accept you, so how are you going to prove that it was because of sexual orientation, let alone because of religion?  Unless you could prove that to the government, then the incident wouldn't change anybody's opinion about the Design Institute, since their heartland supporters are probably equally homophobic.  Meanwhile you'd have ruined your career & possibly your life for no real reason.   00:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There's absolutely zero chance they would fire you for being gay. And ask yourself just how hard you're prepared to work for them in the meantime doing something you think is wrong and terrible.  If you didn't work demonstrably hard, they could fire you for that justifiably, and if you worked very hard, you'd be helping them more than you could ever hurt them.--<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore fiat justitia 01:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Think of the money you could make writing joke articles for them! Broccoli 01:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Tom, you apparently missed the point. The issue is NOT to work for them and get fired, its to see how interested they are in recruiting me, and how quickly they become disinterested when they came to think I was gay.  In short:  I would never actually be hired.--Mustex 01:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, in that case they just won't hire you. They don't have to explain themselves as to why; academia is a rough gig, as you should know after hacking through grad school, and they can easily give a dozen reasons why they don't need another Anthro MA or PhD.--<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore fiat justitia 01:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How about you pretend to be Jewish too? And black? Really sucker them in. Fox 01:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fuckit. Why not go balls out and pretend you're an atheist and an evolutionist too. 04:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The blackleg graduate student?
Okay, serious moral-practical crisis brewing here. The quick summary, as a TA I am automatically placed in a union upon entering my graduate program. My union is getting ready to call a strike, and I have to make some decisions and am looking for intelligent feedback.

Some background that complicates the issue
Graduate students at McMaster who are in the sciences and engineering departments are well supported. In addition to your TA pay we receive scholarships, bursary, and departmental funding to make sure we can survive our experience. We don't make much, but I can pay my tuition, my rent, eat, and with your help support RW. That is about it.

However, the humanity departments don't have this funding. The only source of support for these students is the TAship. That means that small changes in tuition increases or changes in TA funding have a disproportionate effect on the two populations at the university. The union is run by people out of the humanities, for various reasons. They are more likely to be engaged in the "system", show up to meetings and they have a larger vested interest in the outcome. The political sci department is in charge of bargaining and overseeing a strike as a poly sci major interested in public work is like publishing in nature.

I am perfectly happy with the proposed contract by the univesrity, but that's because of my additional support. A strike is likely at this point.

Reasons not to strike

 * 1) I am TAing for my supervisor for my research, who is the one person most responsible for my success and good standing in this program. Pissing her off is not a good idea.
 * 2) I don't think the union leadership represents me or my interest (see above), and have vested interest in seeing a strike regardless of the contracts proposed.
 * 3) I barely make enough to survive, as an international student my tuition and fees are greatly increased compared to baseline, the strike pay would net me less money per month, I may not be able to afford such things as rent, or god forbid internet access.
 * 4) I am not in a career job, I am here for 2 more years and out. This isn't clearly analogous to unions that represent employees that will have a lifetime at their job.
 * 5) My strike pay will come at a significant cost of time and energy working picket lines, more time than I truely have to lose.
 * 6) I think a lot of TAs might chose to scab, weaking the strike and making my "stand" meaningless.
 * 7) Canadian strikers are fucking wimps. York University near by went on a strike that shut the university down, the government finally stepped in and said "go back to work." They wound up capitulating and getting a worse contract than if they had not gone on strike. The thought of telling the government to shove it never occurred to them. If these people aren't willing to fight once its on the line what is the point?
 * 8) I feel sorry for the undergraduates who will be shafted on their education...but only so much.

Reasons to strike

 * 1) I was raised on Union folk lore in a family that has always supported the struggle for better working conditions, scabbing is antithesis to my up bringing and my own political outlook.
 * 2) There is significant social and political risk to striking with my fellow TAs who do go on strike.
 * 3) The union can seek sanctions against scabs, or force you out of the union all together.
 * 4) Even if none of this happens, if it works beautifully and the university capitulates, I get a benefit from others hardship with no personal sacrifice.

So what the hell should I do? Union can call a strike as early as Friday at midnight. Fearless Leader 00:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I would strike, but I am always that way inclined. 00:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've always been pro-union, even though I am a manager in a union shop and they all hate me, so I'd be inclined to stick with my union brothers/sisters. If you scab, there is a possibility of retribution from your fellow TAs who chose to strike, it would be difficult to convey your aforementioned issues to them.  I assume there were meetings involved leading to the possibility of strike?  That would have been a great way to air out the laundry, if you will.  I'm not sure how the system works for universities, but I know there are laws in place for elementary/high school teachers who go on strike in that they can only be out for a set amount of time before they have to return to class (my alma mater is currently on the verge of strike themselves).  Does this rule apply to universities, and if so, does it apply to TAs?   02:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. As a lifelong member of IBEW (I guess, once you're in, you're never out?), which, ironically or amusingly is the union any employees I ever have would join (so I'd have to strike with them?), I think if you're in a union, and they call a strike, you strike.  But then there are all the points in the "against" section.  The politics... how much time would you lose working on your papers and your experiments, while hanging out in the cold weather waving a sign saying "McMaster Unfair!!11eleventy!"?  Can you secretly work while wasting some hours each day blocking access to your workspace?  Anyway, I say "strike".  Although sometimes union movements create stupid situations, if the brothers and sisters don't link arms, there is nothing at all.  02:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

PS, isn't this also a great opportunity to experiment with drinking yourself to death? 02:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I want to chime in before Listener goes all arrrREDREDREDRED!!! Don't strike!!! only REDREDREDREDS strike. It's a tough call. as "red" as I am, it's hard--even as a grad student myself--to get behind the idea of a strike for many of the reasons you list here. Tops for me is that this is a limited contract (five years v. your two) and not a lifetime vocation. I like the idea of exploring alternative strategies (not inputting grades might be one example) that might gum up the works/be a pain in the ass but wouldn't do as much to muck up the u-grads' semesters, or your bottom line. And the big problem is, as you point out, that diffferent faculties have very different cultures re: the role and treatment of TAs/grad students, which makes it hard to co-ordinate plane and outlooks (my department only lets people in with five years of guaranteed funding in the form of TA'ing, free money and tuition waivers. Anthro, for example, does not, and people often have to fend for themselves. Hard to co-ordinate given the real disparities.) Anyway, as weird as it is for me to say this, on this one, I think you have to follow your heart...RaoulDuke 02:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, IIRC, ListenerX doesn't dislike unions, just union corruption. 03:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) RaoulDuke, I have no problem with workers going on strike if they are dissatisfied with their working conditions. The only things I have problems with in that area are (1) unions being given legal privileges so that workers cannot be made directly accountable for unreasonable demands (as they would be in the case of a worker-owned company); (2) the fact that most union rallies I have attended have drawn out perhaps ten actual workers and also most left-wing cranks within ten miles. (Also union corruption, but that is a fairly apolitical dislike.)
 * Tmtoulouse, based on the conditions you have outlined above, if I were you I would cross the picket line with barely a glance left or right, but if you cannot do that with a clear conscience then most certainly you should not do it. 03:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A very well-put response from LX. 03:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That is going to ruin Raoul's day, I bet he was looking forward to that argument. 03:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your given reasons to strike: Reason 1.  While this may be important to you psychologically it obviously should be checked against whether striking is useful or in your best interest.  Reasons 2 and 3 look like pressures outside of the question of whether the strike is "right" / "wrong" or "good" / "bad".  One could argue that there is a level of intimidation involved which it would be best to ignore.  A cynic could regard reason 4 as an argument either way.
 * In contrast, your "reasons not to strike" strike me as generally persuasive.--BobNot Jim 07:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The real problem is surely: "as a TA I am automatically placed in a union upon entering my graduate program." As a one time union member and partner to a similar, I always retained the ability to vote with my feet and leave the union if I found they were growing too irrational. I never did (I always worked for smallish companies where we saw the owners almost daily) but I had the option. 10:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)I recall a massive stike action by some groups of lecturers a few years ago in the UK where they basically stopped marking. Students went fucking apeship over it - remember, if you do it, these are the guys who will be affected, strikers choose to strike and take the stuff that comes with such action, the students you teach are more than collateral damage. What are the conditions of the strike? Ceasing all teaching or just certain aspects like formal or assessed marking? Are you still going to be there for any undergrads who knock on your door after hours saying "dude, what the hell does this mean?". Of course, I'm biased towards this point because I actually do like teaching and still young enough to know what it's like to be a confused and bewildered student. You do seem to have more points against the strike action, though and your reasons for don't seem like you have your heart in it and you've decided already. 10:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Morally a very difficult decision. On the one hand, you feel strongly about unions and the laudable goals they pursue. Scabbing would be a blow to the effectiveness of the union itself, though you've said Canadian student unions are hosers, and would subject you to the ire and derision of your comrades. On the other, this particular union was thrust upon you and does not completely represent your interests. Let me ask you this: what kinds of deals do those few grad students who are not members of the union get? Is you PI the one responsible for renewing your gig? Would quitting the union get you what you've got now without getting you in trouble with those rabble rousers? 14:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If you believe in the union movement, then you've only got one (probably very difficult) question to consider: do the humanities TAs have a legitimate case for strike action? If they do, then you should walk out alongside them. If they don't, then break the strike with a clear conscience. --Robledo 18:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Update
Thanks to everyone for the discussion it has helped focus my thoughts somewhat. After having met with many of my fellow TAs I think we have a path of action. The biggest questions is the legitimacy of the right of the union leadership to call a strike. They have a "strike mandate" vote that was advertised as a "bargaining tool" and "not a vote to strike." This strike mandate vote got about 200 out of the 3000 TAs. This is clearly not a legitimate mandate to strike. What we have decided is to band together in the event that negotiations fail and to tell the union that we do not think they have a true mandate and that they need to call a general meeting and ask for a strike vote. If at that meeting the membership of the union votes to strike, I, as well as many other luke warm supporters will go ahead and support the strike full heartedly knowing its the true wish of the majority of members. If the strike vote fails, or if they refuse to call such a vote then I think its safe to say that the union is out for itself and not representing our interest and at that point strikebreaking starts to look like a better possibility. tmtoulouse 19:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Always worrying when unions don't hold proper strike ballots =/ Usually means they know beforehand they won't get the approval of the membership. I'm a supporter of trade unionism, btw, but also of democracy and fair representation within the union. Look what happened to the NUM when Scargill decided not to hold a national ballot ... Fox 20:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I gotta say this much, while the issues of strike, money and standing outside in the snow all winter suck, starting a grass roots political movement is damn fun. I had forgotten how great it is. After leaving NM I sort of dropped politics to the side. So even this little taste is a much needed salv. There is an amazing ground swell of support from the TAs as well. I think the vast majority have felt the same as me, that we are being strong armed by a union that doesn't have our interest at heart. The game starts in earnest tomorrow. However, a strike has been officially called.

So just a note, and I may bring this up again later more prominently, if I wind up having to strike through December, or longer, I am going to need help keeping RW up. Hopefully it won't happen. 21:14, 31 October 2009 (UTC)