Conservapedia talk:What is going on at CP?/Archive176

I saw this and thought of Ken "Magical Love Gentlemen"
otherwise a great web comic, actually the one that got me into web comics in general. I suspect it will change tomorrow, so I've put a capture tag on, though for the life of me I don't know if it will do any good off CP. --Opcn (talk) 05:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Rob just got the RW article on WP restored.
Check wp:Talk:Conservapedia for the epic WTH, started and thoroughly escalated by Rob... that ended with somebody restoring the RW article on WP. I hadn't been active on WP around that time, I think, so I completely missed the pros and cons of the decision to turn it into a redirect (end of 2008 or so). My intuition would say that it doesn't meet notability, but I'm totally not up to speed with the WP rules. If people from here still remember and/or are knowledgeable about the rules and facts, this might be a good time to chime in. --Sid (talk) 18:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Uhh, isn't the opposite of what he intended? 18:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's hard to tell what he intended... 20:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Going by what I see, I'd say that not even he knows what he intended. Going by what I suspect, it's simple trolling: He either wants to paint RW in the worst light possible, or he wants its presence gone from the article. That's why he went from Lenski to PalMD to the Hit List, to questioning the LA Times, to involving the Register (to alter who gets "credit" as founder - the cornerstone to focusing his accusations on Pal), to invoking NPOV, to accusing Pal of defamation. And he will go on and on until he gets his way or until a sysop realizes that that section alone is more than 30kb large, filled with wild tangents and accusations by Rob. --Sid (talk) 21:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Which one is Rob again?  21:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobs01. Just check the talk page there, it quickly becomes obvious. --Sid (talk) 21:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Weapons-grade batshit for brains. Can't miss him. --Robledo (talk) 21:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's kind of annoying to read, in that those little bloggish articles are treated as factual scholarly sources -> "RW IS AN ORGANIZATION DESIGNED TO VANDALIZE CP". Rob's own hit list is pretty great, though. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 21:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, all his whining accomplished his goal in a way: The NPOV of the entire article is now in dispute just because one section says what a CP-approved source says and nothing more. God, this is why I hate wiki politics. --Sid (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just call me a "transformational figure" and "agent of change." RobSmithdon't bother me 22:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Is the accusing PAL of defamation better or worse than Brian McDonald stating that Trent and Ames are criminals over and over? I can't tell. 22:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * £20 says that Colin (whoever he may be) is actually in prison for crimes of internet terrorism against CP. EddyP (talk) 22:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't take that bet all day because Karajou's making damn sure all of us RatWikian vandals end up in the clink! 23:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I think there are more words in the Conservapedia WP article than there were in the LA Times article. I think I'll stay out of it, but why is RW in the CP article at WP anyway? It doesn't add anything but more criticism. Šţěŗĭļė 00:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is RW on WP in the first place? Is WP:Notable? I don't think so. 00:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * RationalWiki is nowhere near notable enough for Wikipedia. You need to start a Liberal Bible Project (LBP) or something, and make a lot of noise.  Cp anon (talk) 01:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Mh, wikilawyering is fully engaged. I am now officially accused of a COI (which I only fully realized because I happened to check his contribs) because I fixed an error in the RW article while stating several times that I'm a longtime RW member. God, I fucking hate trolling. --Sid (talk) 01:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Though I admire the tactic from an outside POV: Never stick to one subject, keep bringing up new accusations while always claiming that this is indeed what you've been saying the entire time, then mix it all into one big, garbled claim... and ask for outside sysops who don't know the history. He did it with the NPOV claim, he did it with the COI claim... and let's see what he does later and tomorrow. --Sid (talk) 01:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sid, sorry to have to do that, but you violated process and trolled me. WP is not RW or CP where you can troll at will. I'd be happy to discuss some issues here if you like. But it would have to begin with a recognition and statement from you that some of my concerns (my concerns, not Andy's, TK's, Karajou, Phil Raymont, et al) are quite valid in WP, and your constant bring up extraneous arguments (trolling) is unhelpful.  Thank you.  RobSmithdon't bother me 02:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, right, because misuse of process isn't in the wikipedia guidelines. Except it is.  Šţěŗĭļė 02:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The CP trolls at WP keep trotting out the line from the LA Times about "[RationalWikians]...by their own admission -- engage in acts of cyber-vandalism." Just who admitted this and exactly what was admitted to? Did anyone admit to vandalism or posting pornography? Because from what I have seen here, out of the early members only one could be called vandal in the traditional sense of the word. I'm thinking of IW unless anyone can suggest any other likely suspects. Certainly it was not the modus operandi of Trent, Ames etc.  09:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Lily, you are completely correct. However, since WP is stuck with "reliable sources", if the newspaper writer got it wrong, and no one else bothered to get it right, WP has to report lies.  It's an interesting conundrum (in WP world, anyway).  09:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We have two reputable, verifiable sources per cp:WP/RS wp:WP/V, that Peter Lipson founded RW, "by their own admission engages in cyber-vandalism. From there Lipson writes 'CP represents everything I abhor {insert more marginal, fringe, and extreme views quoting Lipson's hate filled screed]'" Proposed text: "Rationalwiki editors have confessed to at least two acts of cyber-vandalism, (1) the Hit List, and (2) authoring brusque, offensive and deceitful comments about Dr. Lenski," per WP:CITE, WP:RS, WP:V.
 * Now, the question is, do you guys want the RW entry deleted? vote here. Do you think you can control its content, too? What about WP:COI? What if you can't and RW is exposed for what and who it is? It probably makes sense for you guys to remain non-notable, marginal, fringe, and extreme. RobSmithdon't bother me 14:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think both those statements would have issues with verifiability, OR, undue weight, and some other policies, but that could be discussed if the article is kept. Frankly, I expect it will be redirected to its section in the CP article. DickTurpis (talk) 15:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yah but you guys aren't going to be able to sockpuppet and troll to control it's content in the manner you've become accustomed. You'd probably all end up being banned indefinitely. And I'd probably have to retire from RW to avoid COI. We need serious negotiations at this point per wp:CIVIL, and it would be helpful to do it here in RW. While I appreciate the humor and laughs with you guys, I ain't fuckin around nomore. I know where the bodies are burried. Please, only serious editors engage me how to proceed. And trolls go fuck yourself (Sid, did you really say you hate trolling above? Well look who's calling the kettle a honkey). RobSmithdon't bother me 15:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * What's cyber-vandalism? The hit-list was parody, and brusque, offensive and deceitful comments on Lenski were made by Aschlafly, too. Is he a cyber-vandal himself? 15:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Rob, it has been explained to you several times exactly why you are utterly and completely wrong. Can we please stop feeding the troll and let the WP guys handle this? -- Nx  / talk 15:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Be advised, you need to begin taking me seriously, cease incivility, and if youj are indulge these discussions, address specifically the concerns that have been raised. You will be the next user reported to COI Noticeboard. RobSmithdon't bother me 15:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't been incivil.
 * Your concerns have been addressed multiple times.
 * This is RationalWiki, not Wikipedia, you can't report me at WP for my comments at RW.
 * I don't think I have violated COI, so go ahead and report me. -- Nx  / talk 15:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You edited mainspace RW. You could show good faith now by voting to delete the RW entry. RobSmithdon't bother me 16:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:COI does not prohibit me from editing the RationalWiki article at Wikipedia (I'm assuming that's what you mean by mainspace RW, and not RW's mainspace, which I have, indeed, edited). -- Nx  / talk 16:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's your interpretation, but you of course, are not the final arbitrator on that. I, by contrast, have little or no editing history in either mainspace. I've tried to resolve disputes and have been relentlessly trolled. And I think I can prove a history of tendentious editing and WP:OWN, and a shitload of other violations by RW editors long before I ever attempted to improve Wikipedia & bring NPOV. RobSmithdon't bother me 22:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And the interpretation of other WP editors who are getting annoyed by you dragging this issue all over wikipedia and have already told you to put up or shut up. -- Nx  / talk 22:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Editors with histories of undisclosed COI and tendentious behavior? Ever been through any level of wp:WP:DR? Let's see the case. RobSmithdon't bother me 22:54, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Who are you talking about? Can you point out specific cases of tendentious behavior or COI editing? Also, --  Nx  / talk 22:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I would expect acts of vandalism to be reverted on Conservapedia - after they have been spotted. So, while this necessary criterion is met by the hit-list, what about the brusque, offensive and deceitful comments against Lenski? No reversal there, Conservapedia seems to endorse them! 15:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The Hit List and in inifiltration in the Lenski affair probably would warrant thier own subheads in the RW entry if it survives. Hell, that's RW only claim to notability. RobSmithdon't bother me 15:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Does RW really cares about being on WP? like CPAnon said, We are not doing all this to please mommy ( and get the inheritance). RW is not pandering to the left wing for recognition. We are just concerned/entertained by the sheer stupidity and closed-mindedness some fundies have...
 * I don't think anybody here seriously cares for a RW@WP article beyond some vanity, and most people agree that it doesn't meet notability standards. And the lack of Reliable Sources about RW would make it practically impossible to expand beyond its current state since anything beyond that would be Original Research. --Sid (talk) 15:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Rob, I am going to say this one more time. Nowhere have you shown that RW members admitted to inserting brusque or offensive comments, nor have you produced these comments. Please show us or kindly be quiet. EddyP (talk) 16:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Are they going to blame RW for the Barack Obama article too? Alain (talk) 16:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

If the subtext here, by the way, is that Rob wants RW to be responsible for goading on Andy's cretinous conduct in the Lenski Affair, perhaps he ought to come out and say that he also disapproved of Andy pursuing that course. Then when we get him to admit that there's no good support for the proposition that RW is somehow officially responsible for the tone of that debacle we'll have him admitting that Andy's hubris is the source of CP's butthurt, not some unidentified editors with no editorial control who were banned and oversighted in any event. 16:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well Nutty, here's the beauty of that matter: I was inactive for a long period of time. RW kept good records of these matters ("Damn, he's back."). As Director of Internal Counterintelligence, I felt deeply remorseful for what transpired in my absence.  Namely the Hit List, Lenski affairs, and infiltration into the Zuegledon group.  These Ne-ev-er would have happened had I been around.  Ne-eev-er. So I've had time to conduct an internal review, and now must mitigate the damage.   RobSmithdon't bother me 18:27, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehehe. Ajkgordon (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You think you would have talked Andy out of the Lenski letter, Rob? I don't think so. He was pretty set on that and many saner minds could not persuade him otherwise (saner minds.....maybe that was the problem). Do you also think you could have kept TK out of the Zuegledon group so he wouldn't leak it? I gotta say, a TK vs. RobS grudge match would have made for great viewing. DickTurpis (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Dick, with all due respect, you are behind the curve here. It is pretty well established, from the get-go, that the ZB stuff wasn't leaked by me but rather a defrocked Admin by the name of "Jessica", editing from South Africa, as the "leaked" correspondence shows. Most speculate it was really RW Admin Psygrimlin. --TK/MyTalk|undefinedRW User #45 21:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Most," meaning you, right TK? Junggai (talk) 22:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately despite any amount of effort on your part, and I trust your good intentions, I do, CP will never be monolithic in any sense except the single fact that it reflects Andrew Schlafly's will. There will never be a central control or Director of Internal Counterintelligence with the leadership you guys have. It's just a fact. You can't even agree amongst yourselves on simple matters of policy. The endless bickering on ZB just goes to show that you're sometimes even talking at each other through clenched teeth (the way I feel when I speak with creationists and cantankerous wingnuts). No sir. The Lenski letters were going to go out because Andrew Schlafly wanted them to go out. That's on you all (really it's on Andy but you can share his shame, which I take it you are). The so-called hit-list was also completely consistent with CP ideology. It remained on the website until you CP was made the subject of national scorn in the press. I don't see that business as any different than the repulsive brand of highly personalized hatred that passes for dissent in any other area of concern at Conservapedia. The problem with CP is that people like Karajou, Jpatt, Andy are such incredible extremists that the only glimpses they get of themselves in them mirror are when they suspect CP editors of being "liberals," "parodists," "vandals," etc. simply because they're as or more right wing as Jpatt, Andy, et al. I personally find the paradox entertaining, but I'm not charged by God and Ronald Reagan with maintaining whatever image CP thinks it's projecting. 18:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The so-called hit-list was also completely consistent with CP ideology.
 * Nutty, are going to retract this statement? You have an opportun8ty now (and I voted for you for Loya Jirga). RobSmithdon't bother me 18:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's really just Andy's personality permeating the whole project and dooming it to failure. From what I've seen of him, he'll simply do whatever the fuck he wants (fair enough, it's his site), and nobody will ever talk him out of anything. He'll never question anything or anyone that seems to support his beliefs - that's why it's so easy for parodists to infiltrate the site, place nonsense everywhere and goad him into making a fool of himself - nor will he ever seriously consider any challenge to his opinions. That's CP in a nutshell, Rob, and you can't blame it on parodists and intelligence failures. The latter are pretty much a defining feature of your site anyway, pardon the pun. Röstigraben (talk) 19:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there any screenies floating round of the hitlist history? I remember a couple of sysops editing it before it was exposed. EddyP (talk) 20:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Gee, Rob. "Peter Lipson is still active at RationalWiki."   Do you really consider 9 edits in 2010, and none since February 16th to be "still active?"  Šţěŗĭļė 23:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * CP sysops like to stretch the definition of 'active', because it makes their number of active users slightly less pathetic. EddyP (talk) 12:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

That's far more active than Airdish, Colin or Flippin, ain't it? --TK/MyTalk|undefinedRW User #45 13:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

At the moment, the same definition of Active users (Users who have performed an action in the last 7 days) is used at RationalWiki (170) and Conservapedia (76). Other wikis use other periods of time, e.g., wikipedia 30 days. For a direct comparison of the active commentators over the last 90 days have a look here: Two interesting oberservations: 13:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) The fluctuation of editors at CP is much higher, as the numbers are spiked by short-lived editors. From a marketing view, you could boost your numbers by changing to a longer time period.
 * 2) The last bump was due to Colbert. It's time to pull another public stunt!

Heads up
I'm looking at the Hit List, Lenski affairs, and Zuegledon[sic] matters through the same eyes a Wikipedia Arbitrator would view. And I can do this cause I'm neurtra[sic]. I was inactive, and never have looked at particulars in any of these matters. I only have the credibility of sources to begin with. And let me make this absolutly[sic] clear, Andy Schlafly is not an active user at Wikipedia. Andy's BEHAVIOR in the Lenski matter, or [sic] ANY matter, is not in question here. RobSmithdon't bother me 23:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC!!!!) You're not neutral. You're trying to whitewash the Conservapedia article by claiming that all the things CP has been criticized for were actually done by vandals and parodists. -- Nx  / talk 23:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Hit List: created by parodist, endorsed by sysops
 * Zeugledon: original research, of no interest for wikipedia
 * Lenski: please, get me a statement of Andy where he dissociates himself from concrete remarks made at conservapedia

Neurtra? I don't think so (nice word, BTW) 23:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * LArron: Stop trolling and harassing me. I've lost several responses in my communications with others in a good faith effort resolve a WP dispute becuase of your trolling. Please stop.  RobSmithdon't bother me 23:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) Rob, pointing out that you are wrong is not considered trolling. Except at Conservapedia of course, so I understand how you might be confused. -- Nx  / talk 23:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This might be fun. Even if you ignore the above concerns, there are a few questions:
 * Hit List: Do you have Reliable Sources covering it?
 * Zeuglodon: Do you have Reliable Sources covering it?
 * Potential RW involvement in the Lenski Affair: Do you have Reliable Sources covering it?
 * From what I see, the answers are... uh... no, no, and... no? But please, do show us your sources, Mr. Absolutely Neutral Arbitrator! --Sid (talk) 23:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Arbcom does not get involved in content disputes.  Seems to me, your rejection of the first steps of WP:DR several times in  WP doesn't look good. Then, wp:OWN over both the CP & RW entries. Also COI and tendentious editing. Wanna see your Username on the sockpoppet Noticeboard for the next several years, too. Sid, wake up. You would help  yourself by moderating your conduct in interaction with other users and begin addreessing these concerns seriously.  RobSmithdon't bother me 22:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 
 * You're still thinking that you're following WP:DISPUTE?
 * "Focus on content: The most important first step is to focus on content, and not on editors."
 * Your efforts have focused more and more on editors... especially as said editors started to show how your content concerns went against Wikipedia rules and guidelines. And when you claimed that you would try to engage me in Dispute Resolution, your first words to me here were "Sid, sorry to have to do that, but you violated process and trolled me. WP is not RW or CP where you can troll at will." That is not content. You're just making personal remarks. And then you tried to make me agree about "valid concerns" that were not sufficiently clarified and later on turned out not to be about the dispute you claimed on WP.
 * "When you find a passage in an article that you find is biased or inaccurate, improve it if you can."
 * You kept dodging questions of what specific edit or sentence you oppose or how you would phrase things. When you finally got around to suggesting actual changes, they were OR (like including PalMD's essay to brand him as some sort of political radical) or were dismissed on BLP grounds (insisting that PalMD founded RW and ignoring arguments made against your claims that the LA Times doesn't actually say what you want it to say)
 * "Don't take others' actions personally."
 * You've done this the entire time, insisting that RW editors violate COI rules even after the people from the Noticeboard told you this wasn't the case. Your "People who disagree just have to be from RW and people who agree with me are neutral" stance led to you declaring that a RW editor had removed some dispute tag in the RW article and that a neutral admin had agreed with hanging a dispute tag in the CP article. Both claims were evidently false (and while you apologized for one, you just ignored the other).
 * "Please give both yourself and the other party some time."
 * You rushed both the NPOV and COI Noticeboard alerts out the moment you felt that you might be able to make a case. Less than five hours after posting your initial talk page edit (at time in which a mere two editors had replied) you had alerted the NPOV Noticeboard. And your COI accusations against me came less than two hours after starting the COI talk page section on Talk:RW. Dispute Resolution doesn't just begin when you declare it does. You declared vague concerns, some people replied to you, and you ran away to ask for neutral parties.
 * "Assume that an editor is acting in good faith until it's absolutely clear that they're not."
 * You accused RationalWiki editors of controlling the content of the CP article and further told me "Your contribs at wp:CP hurt the WP project. I'll prove it to Arbcom, if necessary." All this without ever moving beyond vague claims about me "shaping the article" or me trolling you. You couldn't even be bothered to look up an actual quote or edit by me, instead citing someone else and then just lamely declaring "While those are not your words, you were right there from the beginning in shaping the article".
 * "Not discussing will make people less sympathetic to your position and may prevent you from effectively using later stages in dispute resolution."
 * Your repeated unwillingness to move beyond rule-citing or dishing out accusations without providing proper diffs (in several cases making misleading or openly false claims, such as RationalWiki editors removing a RS or the above claims about who added or deleted tags) lost you the support of the very people you alerted. Plus the people who tried to engage you on Talk:CP - way before I even made my first edit in that discussion.
 * "Also consider negotiating a truce or compromise."
 * You told me to acknowledge that your concerns are valid under threat of ArbCom. How is that a compromise or truce? If that is your idea of negotiating a truce, you failed.
 * "Ask for help at a relevant noticeboard"
 * You did this twice (veeery quickly), and the people there did not share or even see your concerns. Later, you blamed me defending myself against your various accusations for this.
 * "Last resort: Arbitration: [...] Be prepared to show that you tried to resolve the dispute by other means."
 * This I gotta see. Your dispute resolution consisted of quickly dragging matters to Noticeboards instead of trying to discuss properly first and of accusing me and other RW members of trolling, controlling content, hurting the Wikipedia project, threatening with ArbCom, threatening to drag me to the Sockpuppet Noticeboard, threatening to drag Nx to the COI Noticeboard, trying to coerce Nx into voting for deletion in AfD:RationalWiki... and then you told me to go fuck myself.
 * Oh yeah, and all of this while acting as Conservapedia's "Director of Internal Counterintelligence" and claiming that as such, you "now must mitigate the damage". And then you went on to claim that you're neutral.
 * Your entire conduct of the last few days here and on Wikipedia completely and openly contradicts your case. You have tried several times to make some sort of case against RationalWiki, and you failed each and every time simply because you were not even able or willing to properly communicate your thoughts to people who know what you are trying to do - much less to people who just arrived.
 * Right now, you are resting your entire case against me on a single hope: "And trust me, they will have no patience for large blocks of text like the one you just stated to defend yourself". Let me just point out: I like to be verbose, but I can be concise when needed. There is a reason some people here praise my WIGO writing skills. --Sid (talk) 00:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 
 * I have started a section on Wikipedia since this section is just escalating limitlessly. --Sid (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Mediation

 * I think this is where it needs to go, Sid. Seriously.  All the steps are laid out in WP:DR. Let's just move to informal mediation. There we can discuss some of these content issues you repeatedly raise. I know nothing of YEC, evolution, Lenski, etc etc etc.  I do know the history of your editing both the wp:Conservapedia & wp:RationalWiki mainspace. Let's resolve those issues quietly (privately, if you'd like) in Mediation. Take you're time reviewing the processes, but please let me know.  Thank you.  nobsdon't bother me 23:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * (I moved your reply since otherwise, my other follow-ups will be stranded.) No, Rob. I repeatedly tried to discuss content here, even after your first and sudden threat to drag me to ArbCom for my editing history of the last three years. Yet somehow, I'm apparently the only one of us who wants to discuss content. Your entire editing pattern boils down to just citing rules you think make you right while people around you point out that your most basic foundation, the content proposals, are either bad or missing. I asked you to engage me on Talk:Conservapedia to address your content concerns, and so far, there is no reply by you, but yet another ArbCom reference here on my talk page. If you really do have content concerns, stop shoving your interpretation of the rules in my face and just tell me what you want to change! I'm sick and tired of you continuously pestering me without making ONE good suggestion yourself. --Sid (talk) 00:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

[unindent] ArbCom has to decide to accept or reject the case. I'm taking the initial steps to resolve disputes, per WP:DR. That there is dispute in WP between editors, there is no question.
 * Battle of Conservapedians and RationalWikians
 * wp:Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive175

Sid, rejecting offers to resolve disputes doesn't work to your advantage. nobsdon't bother me 17:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to reject. You just kept making threats and accusations while I repeatedly tried to talk about content. I made a lengthy post detailing my thoughts on the Lipson/LATimes issue, which you ignored. I asked you to engage me on Talk:CP, which you ignored. I asked you on Talk:RW to discuss your content concerns, but you first wanted to revert my edit to the RW article even though the COI Noticeboard told you my edit was justified. Show me diffs where you tried to discuss content. All you did on RW was accusing me, threatening me with ArbCom and stating that you are engaging me in Dispute Resolution, but I don't see your posts about content. I repeat my invitation to discuss WP content on the according WP talk page. --Sid (talk) 17:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

You are neutral and yet the only one interested. Stop wasting free (Free:socialist : EVIL!!!666!! ) and precious arbitration time at wikipedia and just let go of it... Alain (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

...Or at best, just link the ]to WP, they'll get the gist of it... Alain (talk) 00:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

AfD is a Keep
which I find a bit surprising. --Opcn (talk) 20:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the AfD closer left the whole redirect question open, so another guy followed through there and made it a redirect while a user from the COI Noticeboard included some of the language from the RW article in the CP one. So it can be summed up as "Keep and Merge", which isn't terribly surprising. No objections from my side. --Sid (talk) 20:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I expected it to return to a redirect. The decision wasn't so much "keep" as "don't delete".  20:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I de-stickied the thread. 21:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Rob must be terribly disappointed that it wasn't deleted and the earth salted. --Kels (talk) 21:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 7 keep, 6 delete, 10 redirect, 3 "delete and/or redirect". That's 19 to 7 against keeping the stand alone article.  Closing admin: "The result was keep".  This, folks, is why Wikipedia admins should not be allowed to breed.  Secret Squirrel (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The closing user made it clear that he wasn't weighing in on the redirect question and just decided between "completely delete it with no redirect" and "don't burn it, you guys figure out what to do with it", so it was more like 20 to 6 against complete deletion. Besides, keep in mind that it's not pure vote-counting that decides these things (at least not last time I checked). --Sid (talk) 08:44, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He apparently decided to ignore the decision (and a lot of other stuff). His most recent move on the CP talk page boils down to "The AfD has established that RationalWiki is non-notable, and the LA Times is inaccurate, so let's remove the section here!". Let's see what happens from here. --Sid (talk) 09:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like knobs got to him in private? 00:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Abortion articles
This warrants a discussion. One little comment I would like to make: I love how in every article about something they disagree with there's at least one picture of Hitler and/or Stalin. It literally makes me laugh every time I see that: how can they take themselves seriously? =)) It's like they're trying to make a parody site.

I've never seen anything more childish than comparing the other side with Hitler or putting an image of a baby girl with big eyes in an attempt to manipulate emotions. How can they expect to be treated seriously? I can't believe I used to try and have honest debates with them. :) diego_pmc 20:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that it is mostly Ken who is doing this. He's a step above (or below) the rest. 20:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * On a serious note, with Ken's SEO skills (or lack of it)and link farming methods, how much impact will these articles have on the general internet world. Rather how likely is that some neutral person searching for abortion bumps into one of Ken's creations? --Buscombe (talk) 21:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * On an unrelated note, how likely is that some neutral person searching for creation bumps into one of Ken's abortions? ONE / TALK 21:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Bravo, sir. Bravo.  Top-notch wordplay. Three internets for you.  23:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

"Either way, they're up to a target of 126 abortion articles" unlinked, and list is gone now. Please 'splain? 00:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I would imagine that's going to be the end of abortion around the world now.  Once everyone searches for and finds Ken's amazing articles on the topic, people's heads will be turned and that'll be the end of that.   You'll see.  He's a visionary genius, our Kenny Baby.   DogP Marmite Patrol 07:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Lighthouses are more useful than churches
I hadn't heard it before, but lighthouses are more useful than churches seems to be a genuine quote by Benjamin Franklin - this great American with the tiny flaw of being utterly a-religious.

Nevertheless, the insertion of this quote into the article on Ben F. is punished as deliberate insertion of false information.

Weil, so schließt er messerscharf, nicht sein kann, was nicht sein darf. - Christian Morgenstern

(As, he concludes cunningly, it can't be, what should not be... )

22:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

A better translation - by a certain Max Knight - for, he reasons pointedly, ''that which must not, can not be. ''


 * It's certainly a fascinating quote, but I'm honestly curious -- is there any source that says conclusively that Franklin did make that statement? There are, of course, a lot of quotes attributed to famous people that the never said. (Though that might well have been Franklin's sentiment.) MDB (talk) 23:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I've found a couple of references to it that cite Poor Richard's Almanack 1758, but getting an online cource for that is looking pretty tough. In passing - they tend to quote it as helpful rather than useful, not that it really matters 23:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Scanned images of the Almanack are viewable at ; I've had a quick glance over it but can't immediately see the lighthouse quote. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough and someone else can spot it.. (if you click on the images they helpfully increase to a bigger, readable size!) alt (talk) 00:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There's also this downloadable text; searching for either "lighthouse" or "church" returns nothing useful. alt (talk) 00:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe he used an aerchaick spelinge? 00:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The origin of this quote seems to be a letter of Benjamin Franklin to his wife Elisabeth (Jul 17, 1757), where he writes: The bell ringing for church, we went thithers immediately, and with hearts full of gratitude, returned sincere thanks to God for the mercies we had received: were I a Roman Catholic, perhaps I should on this occasion vow to build a chapel to some saint, but as I am not, if I were to vow at all, it should be to build a light-house''.

So, here is something for everyone: thanks to God & preferring to build a light-house over building a chapel.

05:58, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Most churches, have a tower or steeple. Why couldn't they combine the functions of a place of worship and a lighthouse? Or even for making lead-shot? Or a windmill? A church with a revolving cross seems like a great idea. But oh no, they have to build something that is pretty much only used one day a week. 07:20, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Wait a second....
This doesnt make any god damn sense at all. The big bang theory predicts, and supports the idea of, space time to still be expanding. Completely fucking stupid these people. Acei9 09:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's creation.com isn't it? Do you expect it to make sense? Green Giant (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But this is dated 2010? Where are these people living for fucks sake? Fucking hell, its not even wrong. Acei9 09:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he probably does understand the Big Bang theory, it's support of the expanding universe, and cosmology. He is simply lying, and what more, he knows that he is lying, he just doesn't care. --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 12:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See, that's what I've been thinking about PJR, and it applies to Ken too. And hell, probably Andy in a way.  They don't consider themselves to be lying, because to them, the honesty of a statement doesn't matter.  It doesn't even enter into the discussion.  They take as a given that whatever they say, no matter if it's backed up by fact or if it's a deliberate twisting of someone's words, as automatically true, since they're not intending to lie.  All that really matters is that points get scored for Team Creationism, or in Andy's case, his own personal political views. --Kels (talk) 13:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hence why I keep calling their bullshit informed by Postmodernism, as much as they deride it in their mainspace. They believe what they believe, and if any two bit source confirms their opinions, they'll accept it, no matter how blatantly false it is. Only in the Postmodern age can one claim their own facts, and wingnut Christians (make that wingnuts of any political or religious persuasion) all over the place are going to town with it to argue whatever they like without any standards of falsifiability. We're heading into a new dark ages, I tell ya. *opens a new bottle of Wild Turkey* Junggai (talk) 13:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell. The assumption I used violently contradicts the foundational assumption of the big bang, which says the universe has no centre and no edge. In that model, the fabric of space would not change.  I'm not an astronomy guy, but isn't that exactly the opposite of what the big bang theory predicts?    15:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In essence yes. When it was first discovered that galaxies were moving away from us through redshift, it was postulated that in the past, they must have been closer, correspondingly at one point deep in the past, all of the universe was together and thus had a beginning.  The Big Bang was one hypothesis put forth to explain this.  Over time it become a very well supported theory because of all the subsequent evidence and is now directly tied to the idea the universe is expanding.
 * Dr. D. Russell Humphreys most likely knows this, he is just hoping you do not in the hopes of passing off his "rational" as some sort of theory that not only explains the Pioneer's Anomaly, but refutes the Big Bang, as the latter challenges his notion the universe came to be by "Magic!" --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 17:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, hang on everyone, I think you're all reading this wrong. The expansion stuff is a red herring; that's not him saying big bang theory doesn't predict an expanding universe. He's saying that the matter in the universe is localized to an area around us - which is entirely not big-bang, which predicts roughly even distribution throughout. It makes sense, too: if you assume that matter is localized around us, you lose the gravity pulling the spacecraft out of the solar system - which looks like the craft being pulled back toward the Sun (not convinced the maths actually works out, but the theory is sound). MaxAlex Swimming pool 19:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, this is getting so tiresome. Now Ken is getting involved. Which means that, when I do my regular patrolling CP for scientific/mathematical stupidity, I can't ignore him any more. Which is too bad, because he eats up whole screenfuls of Recent Changes.

Russel Humphreys thing has been cited before, and soundly debunked (mostly in early December) on the pioneer anomaly page. See the talk page also. As related on Conservapedia, Humphreys postulates some kind of mysterious gravitational attractive force "near the Milky Way galaxy" as I recall, and points out that the probability of that mysterious force center being there is 1 in a trillion. Which scores a point for divine creation. Or geocentrism. Or something; I'm not sure what. When it gets pointed out that such a thing would attract one Pioneer vehicle toward the Sun and the other away from it, EvanW posits that this mysterious force is actually near the center of the solar system. SaraT then points out that that makes the probability 1 in a septillion. With the edit comment "We already have a source of gravitational attraction in the center of the Solar system. It's called the Sun."

I have read the Humphreys paper. He fills it with hairy math equations, hoping to intimidate the reader into thinking he [Humphreys] knows what he's talking about. It is bullshit. He gives the Schwarzschild metric. Not some biblically tweaked version of the Schwarzschild metric, intending to show that God tweaked it that way through some divine plan, and that the tweaked version explains the Pioneer anomaly. The exact Schwarzschild metric, worked out in 1917 from Einstein's GR theory.

The fact that Humphreys mentions the Schwarzschild metric means that he must endorse the physics that it relates to, namely, that gravity arises as a fictitious force from the curvature of spacetime, as governed by Einstein's equation setting Ricci's tensor to zero in empty space.

Utter bullshit. As usual.

Gauss (talk) 03:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Reading comprehension fail
Andy tries to read an article about the late Jaime Escalante. He determines that libruls ostracized Escalante and forced him back to Bolivia. According to the article, Jaime quit Garfield High School over reaction to his opposition to bilingual education in 1991 (which I'm assuming is the librul ostracization). Escalante taught for 7 more years at Hiram Johnson with mediocre interest and results from studuents. In 2001 he moved back to Bolivia. Until his recent death, he frequently visited the US. I love the way Andy thinks. &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 17:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Westboro
I'm pretty sure Conservapedia has an item refering to the Westboro Baptist Church as Leftist. I may be dreaming though
 * They do. Based off the basic system of "I don't like them, therefore they are liberals."  00:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See for yourself . You can decide from here.   00:57, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Suddenly the headline is "unencyclopaedic" - like that ever stopped them before. Oversighted too. obviously O'Brian giving that bunch of lefties money is a bad thing. Why would O'Brian support lefties anyway? oh wait... because they're not... -- PsyGremlin  01:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But didn't no other than TK say that the news isn't meant (to even pretend) to be encyclopaedic? If it wasn't for the fact that even in CP's little world it's unacceptable to support WBC - the Assfly would be 100% behind them.   12:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't like this statute!
Therefore London is atheistic! So it seems anything that mildly irritates Andy or is slightly unaesthetic to his eyes is atheistic. Gawd, how does man live without freaking out at every turn. Acei9 07:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, isn't that brilliant?  How much more into the territory of blog can he go?   "That's not Art, that's just a steaming pile of shite!   I could make that in my sleep!"   DogP Marmite Patrol 07:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was going to make a clever reference to this gem, but the amount of stupid overloaded my brain. Keegscee (talk) 07:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I like how he throws a random quote from somebody who's not using their real first name and initial on the front page. Then again, given some of the stuff that's won the Turner Prize over the years... maybe if they'd done a mural of autumn leaves... -- PsyGremlin  07:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It really does fit perfectly with his whole "Autumn Foliage" theory. How does he maintain a consistent thought process? How does avoid lacing his shoes with spagehtti and answering the iron when the phone rings? Acei9 07:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey, the blog he linked has concrete proof that the 2012 Olympics' art is bad. First, some people somewhere posted negative comments. Second, some other blog says the logo is also dumb. Admit that asymmetry is ugly or lose all credibility. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 07:45, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Atheist Art. Wow. Bethcha 10 points that, or some derivative of it, becomes a new Schlafly insight. Acei9 07:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A thousand internets to the person who points out the artist is Jewish and not atheist on CP. 08:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "La la la, he's faking he's Jewish to cover his atheism through Liberal Deciet (tm), la la la la la..." - Ravenhull (talk) 08:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Surely he shouldn't be referencing a blog that features a naked female breast in it's logo? Steve Kay (talk) 08:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * London, atheistic? That's presumably why I live up the road from several churches and a mosque, and indeed I believe a Sikh temple.Webbtje (talk) 10:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well London is in Britain and Britain is in Europe see, and according to the likes of Andy, all of Europe is "atheistic" and "socialist". Why stop his stereotyping now? --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 12:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

On my browser, Andy's declaration that this is an ugly piece of design looks like this - >

VISUAL INSTABILITY?  Teapot/kettle/black, Andy? DogP Marmite Patrol 19:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am more curious how "Visual instability" is the very antithesis of faith. --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 20:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm taking bets on whether, "Instability is the antithesis of faith", is Andy's new "Insight of the week" that will have its own page written almost exclusively by Andy and then summarily forgotten about next week.NetharianCubicles are prisons! 20:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Andy is pulling an april's fool, right? RIGHT!!!?!?!? ( Betty have some good arguments, taken from CuckooPalace main page talk)


 * While I fully agree with anyone that thinks the proposed ArchlorMittal Orbit, the full name for the awful thing, is a ghastly piece of modern sculpture and shouldn't be built, even if there is supposed to be minimal cost to the London taxpayer since the materials have been donated, I don't quite see how one can make the leap to stating that it's 'atheistic'. Horrible, unsightly, and ugly (pick your own adjective) ...certainly - if you don't happen to like that sort of thing, which I don't. However, since the donor is a practicing Hindu, the designer a practicing Jew and the Mayor of London a practicing Christian, I'm not sure where the atheism of it all fits in. I can see how in an avowedly an atheist state such as the former USSR, current North Korea etc one could make such a suggestion with confidence, but here in Britain, where the Christianity is the state religion, to suggest it's a reflection of an atheistic culture is going a bit too far I think. Now if you want to suggest it's a sign of a lack of artistic taste and a reflection of the appalling pseudo-cultural values the Mayor - who as a Conservative should know better - is trying to impose on us, I'm with you all the way! BetsyNewson 11:05, 1 April 2010 (EDT)


 * London is atheistic, and the sculpture was designed for acceptance by its audience. One telling quote about it -- that it was intended to create an image of instability -- demonstrates that the product is the antithesis of faith.--Andy Schlafly 11:14, 1 April 2010 (EDT) 


 * From where I sit in south London I can think of three CofE churches, a Methodist Hall and the biggest Mosque in Europe, all within a 5 min. walk and all seemingly fairly popular on the appropriate day of that religions worship. A slightly longer walk will bring in the local Catholic Church and a Salvation Army Hall, so I'm still bemused at where you get the 'atheistic' description. Materialistic certainly - but then what big city isn't these days? In spite of everything there's still a lot of all sorts of religious belief and practice going on throughout the whole of the City and while I've had many Christians and Mormons coming to my door inviting me to join them and even Muslim leaflets advertising their services, in the 35 years I've live here, I've yet to be approached by an atheist asking me to change my faith to theirs. However, each to their own; I'll just stick to putting the sculpture down as a monument to bad taste.BetsyNewson 11:37, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

Alain (talk) 20:44, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Andy: "How is this sculpture atheistic? By glorifying disorder and instability and excluding any hint of God or faith."


 * Ah, that's why it's atheistic, it doesn't mention God or faith!

Andy (cont'd): "The very meaning of the word "devil" is disorder."


 * It's more than atheistic, it's Satanist!

Andy yet again: "What do you expect an atheistic sculpture would look like, if not this?"


 * Perhaps it would actually depict something atheistic? Have a little sign saying 'There is no god', maybe? Webbtje (talk) 22:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

What on earth does "fair use of a freely released direct image, without any value added by photography." mean? 00:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "This is CG, not a photograph, so it isn't art and I don't have to cite anything. It was posted on the Internet, so I can use it freely." ~ Kupochama[1][2] 08:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Am I crazy or is Andy using a little wry humour in referring to "the great Sean Penn"?  He doesn't often use wit.   But whatever he's saying, it's the same old Andy - "What would an atheistic sculpture look like other than a sculpture that I said was atheistic?   You cannot deny I'm right"   DogP Marmite Patrol 16:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Andy probably subscribes to the art school of "whoever envisions a green sky and blue grass should be sterilised." -- PsyGremlin  17:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent "great Sean Penn"! Also: "The tower was met with much criticism from the public when it was built, with many calling it an eyesore" (WP on the Eiffel Tower) Green Giant (talk) 21:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Lesbian teacher story April fools
so fucking hot found it here Andy called it a shocking news story. Why didn't any of the attractive teachers in my highschool lez out? --Opcn (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless conservatives were paying for it with RNC donations, this is disgusting and should be discussed. The next logical question is WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THAT JANITOR? &mdash; Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 18:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...But... they're women. 19:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I know. 19:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But... they're hot! 19:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hot yes, but how dedicated are they as lesbians ? maybe they just lesbians while waiting for the right man ? "allegedly kissing", while naked ? thats just wrong. "sent to Department of Education disciplinary chambers." , do disciplinary chambers have bondage gear, chains , whips and leather ? All I can say of this is it never happened at my school :( Hamster (talk) 20:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be willing to bet money that the janitor's initial reaction was incredibly positive. But then they said "no, go away", so he was like "We'll see about that!" I was going to write something about how it sounded like this was out of school time and so the response was overblown (someone sneaking into a school out of hours to have sex? That's old news) but then I noticed the line about it being during a school assembly. So yeah, the response is pretty justified, although the emphasis on them being lesbians irks me. X Stickman (talk) 20:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * update, 3rd hotty caught with Male student . Thank God they arent all lesbians. http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-naked-school,0,6345652.story

Hamster (talk) 20:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What's up with the dating on those two stories. Today is a day of paranoia for truthfulness for me. X Stickman (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice catch X S. It's obviously a prank.   01:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But wouldn't it be so much more awesome if it wasn't? H. Randolph Twist (talk) 04:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why nobody try to blackmail them before calling the authorities is beyond comprehension. I wish that happened when I was in school.   21:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Good catch --Opcn (talk) 06:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And to everyone who took it seriously, PWNED! 06:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? then someone was laying the groundwork pretty early. 86.156.156.43 (talk) 09:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Would you like to buy shares in an awesome bridge I am building? 09:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The story broke in December last year. The Wikipedia entry for the school included it as of January, and most of the stories about the teachers being charged are dated 30th or 31st of March. If it is an April Fool it is a very odd one. 86.157.17.135 (talk) 13:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hot. Lesbians. Education.
A coursemate told me how at his old high school a few months back, a couple of female teachers got caught sending super sexy messages to each other over the school system. Apparently the IT Technician for the school found the messages, caught up with them and got a piece of the action. They got caught after school hours having a three-way in a classroom by the caretaker (janitor). Now if that's not totally rockin', I dunno what is. 11:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess any place will do if the urge suddenly grabs you, but seriously, a schoolroom is hardly conducive to comfortable sex. Unless of course someone was dressing up and getting a cane out - "You've been a very naughty boy!" 12:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Clear off the desk, stack up some chairs... oughtta work.  01:13, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Something to look forward to
More lulz upcoming. (Andy's gonna teach American Government) 11:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Featuring a hands-on lab in which students will construct effigies of Obama, don bed sheets, and burn the effigies in a totally not racist way.-- 12:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking of his classes, what's he deal with Andy's writing class? Has it been going on, or is it more classroom and less online oriented than his others? DickTurpis (talk) 13:32, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Or mathematics. The fundamentals seem to fall by the wayside at Conservapedia in favor of the fantasy that these people have facility with more advanced material. It's like a bunch of monkeys invading a physics labs, donning lab coats, and declaring themselves young Enrico Fermis while they nervously get fingerprints all over things they cannot even identify. 13:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

WIGOs were all buggered up
The RU486 and Ken abortion WIGO's were all buggered up, mixed in with the London one, commented out., and sharing WIGO poll numbers. Hope the cleanup was as intended. DogP Marmite Patrol 16:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The RU486 WiGO is flawed. While the punctuation in the article is confusing, it says: ....banned in 1989 [SEMICOLON] under Clinton the ban was reversed. Poor reading skillz on someone's part here. DickTurpis (talk) 16:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I see they've been commented out again?  If they're not liked/wanted, why not just remove them?   Leaving them there is pretty confusing for other editors.   DogP Marmite Patrol 20:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it fucks up the numbering/vote counting thingy? Green Giant (talk) 20:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Andy's definition of abortion
What a worthless, hateful sack of shit that guy is. Last night he pulled Definition of Abortion out of his ass and smeared it on the wall for everyone to look at. Let's parse this abortion, shall we?

•The definition of abortion is the termination of the defenseless life of an unborn child for any reason other than to save the life of the mother. I'm curious as to what the procedure is called if is to save the life of the mother? For a lawyer, Andy's also remarkably sloppy about the use of 'termination', since it does not speak to the mechanism or even the intentionality of that termination. A car crash or overwhelming infection can result in termination of the defenseless, etc. This is like defining murder as the termination of human life, making atherosclerosis the murderer of my grandfather. But atherosclerosis's ties to City Hall keep the cops from touching him!

•'''In medical terminology an abortion includes any artificial termination of the life of an unborn child. ''' Horseshit. In medical terminology, an abortion refers to any pregnancy loss, which is why we have the subcategories of induced abortion and spontaneous abortion. In popular terminology abortion may only refer to the induced variety, with 'miscarriage' for spontaneous abortion, but so fucking what? Here, I'll play Andy in reverse: "In legal terminology, murder includes any artificial termination of the life of a human." Would Andy accept that definition?

•Pro-abortion advocates attempt to confuse the distinction between an abortion, which is contrary to nature and health, and a miscarriage, which is natural. Yes, miscarriage; so natural, and not at all contrary to health. What could be more natural and healthy than a good ol' fashioned miscarriage? It certainly has no effect at all on the future fertility of the mother - oh wait, it does. It doesn't affect the likelihood of future premature birth or miscarriage - oh wait, it does. It doesn't 'increase the risk of breast cancer' - except that oh, it does, if we use Andy's own uniquely stupid and wrong definition of such things. We all know how miscarriage has no longterm psychological effects, and no mother ever dies. Praise God for the wonders of miscarriage! Jesus Fucking Christ on a Giant Mechanical Dildo Fucking YHWH. "Natural". Fuck that fucking piece of shit.--Martin Arrowsmith (talk) 14:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ETA: when an edit by Ken actually improves your article, it's time to swallow a bullet.--Martin Arrowsmith (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I really have to wonder why they need a Definition of Abortion article at all? Shouldn't that be on the Abortion article? DickTurpis (talk) 15:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ken's articles, like FOIA's, reproduce by budding. When one sub-topic is too large for the main article, it splits off into its own page. With a complementary series of block-quotes, of course. 15:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out the krazy so succinctly, Martin.
 * One thing I don't understand is how anti-abortion nuts get away with saying abortion is OK if the life of the mother is in danger. If the embryo/fetus really is an unborn child, i. e. a human being with a right to live, then wouldn't that still be murder? Can I shoot my brother in the head if I absolutely, positively have to have that liver? How do they do it? mb 17:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * the list of wanted articles in the abortion project is somewhat extreme, a lot of those would seem to duplicate material. Anti-abortion nuts are not quite nutty enough to scream, "save the baby " and "die bitch" at the same time , and may be smart enough to realize that if the mother dies, the babies chances are pretty slim anyway. Hamster (talk) 17:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You guys might laugh, but Operation Matutinal Defenestration will soon be in full swing and mark the end of Abortion on the internet!!! ONE / TALK 19:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the meaning behind Andy's definition. The abortion debate is not so much about whether abortion is moral or immoral, but whether the embryo/fetus is a person/baby or just a mass of non-sentient tissue. If you believe "baby", you're probably going to assert that abortion is wrong. If you believe "lump of tissue", then abortion is no more wrong than having your tonsils out. By defining abortion as "termination of the life of an unborn child", Andy is trying to skip right over the debate to the conclusion. --WJThomas (talk) 22:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I dont have a problem with that definition. (and I hate to agree with andy, even slightly) but unless terminated a fertilized egg is going to become a human baby, barring any major defects. Defining it as "a lump of tissue" might be technically correct but seems somewhat like sophistry. Just an old guys opinion. Hamster (talk) 20:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm in danger of starting a whole debate about abortion, but your statement isn't actually correct. A large number of conceptions actually end in spontaneous abortions (or miscarriages, if you want to use the more common term).  One study, for example, found that 61.9% of conceptions ended in spontaneous abortion, 91.7% of which ended without the woman even realizing she was pregnant. 92.17.150.152 (talk) 01:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Ve Haf Vayz...
was reading 'The Salmon of Doubt' last night and came across a wonderful quote/saying/thingy tucked away in the pages. Apparently in old Russia they had a saying, "Whatever isn't illegal, is compulsory." Got me thinking (it was late, ok?) that that's just what CP is like. In order to fit in, you have to believe 100% in all of Andy's many crazy beliefs, or else you're branded a liberal. Gun control bad; abortion = breast cancer; homosexuality bad; bible = liberal; stars aren't billions of years away; etc; etc. Miss any of these beliefs and you're a RINO, or liberal (just think of PJR, hounded out of Dodge for being pro-gun control. None of his other beliefs mattered - Andy actually called him liberal). No wonder he's surrounded by spineless toadies, who act as his echo-chamber, they have no idea when they might step on one of his crazy toes, so simply echo everything he says. Which also explains why the ZB is merely another forum for the sysops to snipe at each other and not to make policy. -- PsyGremlin  17:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * about an hour ago I was cleaning up in the bedroom & down the top of the bed was stuffed: "The Salmon of Doubt"! (end of cleaning!) I was still trawling through it when I turned on my PC & logged on here. Spooky coincidence? Or is it? Green Giant (talk) 20:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Even weirder coincidence: I was reading a Heinlein book ("The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"), and one of the characters says, "Seems to be a deep instinct in human beings for making everything compulsory that isn't forbidden." *scratches head* 23:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was searching my randomly-assorted bookshelves once and discovered I had two copies of a book about coincidences. Totnesmartin (talk) 11:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Pwned by mudkip
Congrats to the brave RWian did this Tweety (talk) 19:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather doubt any RationaWikian would be so infantile. (and it's hardly "brave"} Green Giant (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And some dangerous blasphemy Tweety (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, mudkips are a RW joke, so they must at least read the site. And there was a bit of grammar pwning in there Tweety (talk) 20:15, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia Green Giant (talk) 20:23, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, ok I'll open my mind. Seeing as it was directed at CP though, I have a hunch it was a RWian Tweety (talk) 20:32, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Isn't mudkips a 4chan thing? -- 20:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 4chan and ED provide a lot of CP vandals.
 * Mudkips is (1)not really a RW meme and (2)pretty played out by now. It's also not especially funny, so I dunno if I'd call it "pwning" by any standards. --Kels (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose this at least reminded me of why I should never look-up images at work. Even something as innocent as mudkip turns up some interesting cosplay/body painting pictures. Nice pictures but probably not the best way for me to keep my job. -- 12:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You think you had it bad? I wanted to look for the bodypaint pictures you mentioned and suddenly found myself on some 4chan mirror/archive. That's what I get for not checking the URL before clicking Google Image results. *headdesk* --Sid (talk) 12:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

(undent) That's what you get for having sinful thoughts about women in the nip and painted blue. See you in Hell - the pictures are worth it. -- 12:49, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Writing course
When the teacher happily spouts ...most of the remaining 8 books is finished on the main page, is it any wonder the writing course has been... er... aborted? -- PsyGremlin  10:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I can actually guess what he meant, and it's possible that he's technically not wrong: When most of the remaining books are finished, then it means that several books are finished while others are not. But he likely means that all remaining books are mostly finished. That being said, it's phrased somewhat clumsily in my eyes, which of course is a slight fail when it comes from Mr. Writing Course. --Sid (talk) 10:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Should we be assuming the quantifier "most" is countable?  14:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

It's been asked before but never answered: What ever happened to the writing course? Inquiring minds want to know! 209.194.12.218 (talk) 14:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Inquiring minds will probably be blocked for asking at CP. EddyP (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair, you will be blocked for pretty much anything at CP. --Sid (talk) 17:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I think a few weeks ago Andy said something about the weather interfering. You know, the snow they got a month or so ago. Perhaps as someone mentioned above, it's simply running off-line? Writing is a lot easier to grade and comment on on paper. 00:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

CP's been really dull lately
There's no sense of community there anymore, not even a disfunctional one. There's no talk page interactions or arguments anymore, everyone's doing their monomaniac things, and you can count the users without needing to take your socks off. Maybe there'll be some new homeschooling blood come American Government, but I'm not holding out much hope. Oh, for the heady days of late '08... EddyP (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, this winter we did have the Colbert thing and the buzz over the CBP. We might have something similar again if Andy and his band of parodists ever finish the Bible. 13:45, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm frankly surprised at the exodus of the loyal homeschoolers. 3 edits this year from Addison, nothing from Sharon since October, nothing from Bethany since June. I wonder if they actually wised up and started thinking for themselves. DickTurpis (talk) 14:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If they're off at a real-world college then hopefully our friends in the American Association of Super Liberal Professors are doing their jobs. Andy's own daughter hasn't edited since December. 15:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think they're at college, except maybe SharonS (who was Andy's #2 when he was teaching). Lil Phi was never a very active member. I think Bethany's disappearance is the most remarkable, as she was there from the beginning, always seemed loyal (except for the separate test controversy), doesn't seem to be in college, and yet has had the longest absence of any of the regular HS crowd. Hopefully she's gone on to better things, and doesn't have an insane manchild as a mentor anymore. DickTurpis (talk) 15:57, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Poor Andy, I bet his hearts broken and his soul crushed... and shit Tweety (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "and you can count the users without needing to take your socks off"... I see what you did there. mb 17:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Fun fact: The various brands of American Christian fundamentalism have all of them been suffering from really abysmal retention rates for several decades. A solid majority of fundie kids have turned their backs on the krazy five minutes after first leaving for college. Few people remember this, but large parts of the Evangelical movement were pro abortion well into the seventies; they changed their minds only when they realized that if they wanted replacement-level reproduction they needed clown car vaginas. mb 18:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Clown Car Vaginas"....you just named my next band. DickTurpis (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's really what changed their minds? 19:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not surprising, and I could just parrot the obvious. Of course, they also need to adapt to people geting exposure to the wide-wide world before those children stumble a site that shakes their beliefs to the core. --Sigma 7 (talk) 19:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Tetronian: it wasn't the only reason, at least not for all of them. Some of the phony hysteria about the poor murdered baybeez is due to the hippies, the pill, and the second wave. You grew up during the 50s, you swallowed the staggering amount of ritual degradation that 50s dating came with, you married at age 22. What did all that get you? A disillusioned, bigoted, repressed spouse who resents you for being exactly as disillusioned, bigoted, and repressed as they are, and you know you're stuck with them for the rest of your life. Young girls fucking like bunnies, completely safe from the suffering and humiliation that would have been yours had you done the same? That's bound to make you angry. Carefree sex becomes something you desperately, if not consciously, want to see punished, e. g. through unwanted children. Some of the rage, however, really did begin as a more or less open rationalization for a policy change aimed at producing more soldiers for the movement. Go google "quiverfull" some time. mb 20:07, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny, I started the article here on Quiverfull and had no idea. (If nothing else, that simply proves that Andy's "don't read a book, write a book" mantra is total bull.) 20:53, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Schlafly proven wrong, film at 11." I had no idea this place had an article on Quiverfull. :D mb 00:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Also missing are big content contibutors RJJensen, Dean S and Addison DM. I think a part of the problem is that CP seldom allows account creation these days, at most times during the day there is only the option to login - no new accounts can be made. CP also lost a lot with the departure of consistent editors such as PhilipJRayment, DanH, CPAdmin1, LearnTogether, and so many others who either fell by the wayside due to ideological differences or TK. Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 18:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC) Note: I moved this comment here from discussion above, where I had placed it out of order. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page  21:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not just that prolific editors have been lost - it's that (even mildly) dissenting editors (PJR, CPAdmin1) and developing editors (the homeschoolers) have been lost. There's no debate or discussion anymore, no interaction. There aren't even many vandals anymore. Also, I see SamHB has been removed once more. What for? Apparently his userpage had inappropriate content.EddyP (talk) 20:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that TK is the only admin who bans people for no real reason, then deletes their user pages. Even when the person is not a "vandal" for example SamHB: (Block log); TK (Talk | contribs) blocked SamHB (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 5 years (account creation disabled, e-mail blocked) (Retired under voluntary circumstances; Admin(s) will reactivate upon request). If he retired voluntarily and is free to come back, why delete his user and talk pages? TK does this constantly. Why delete all record of the person? Doing this causes red links to user names throughout hundreds of pages on the wiki and leaves no record of who the person was, their views, or history of user and talk pages edits. Thus, when trying to trace back a particular edit or the history behind it, one comes up with nothing. This seems like a power play issue, there is no justification for it other than "flexing his muscle" - haha I can make you disappear, I have the power! It also seems to me that TK never really writes anything other than links to news stories on the main page; all his edits are to ban, revert, or warn on talk pages. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 21:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As Orwell explains in 1984, power is the ability to distort the truth or vanish it when need be. This is all TK is doing, really. Just power games. 21:40, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Tk routinely oversights anything he reverts. Def 1984. Green Giant (talk) 21:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the greatest power - to delete and then hide all evidence that he's done this - the ultimate in dishonesty. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 21:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Talk about taking advantage of the misfortunes of others
"R.I.P.: The developer of the personal computer, Henry Edward Roberts, has died at age 68. He was the first to employ Microsoft founders Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who later licensed work that Roberts felt belonged to him. Subsequently Microsoft's monopoly destroyed Netscape, and by overcharging built a fortune later used to buy a "chair" for atheist Richard Dawkins and liberal approaches to education." (my emphasis) A guy dies & all Andy can do is badmouth Dawkins! Green Giant (talk) 22:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. Added to Cheap shots. – Nick Heer 00:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Stay Classy Andy--Thanatos (talk) 02:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Student Loan Takeover
Sometimes the political "commentary" makes me weep. This headline on CP alleges that ''[w]hen the Democrats enacted ObamaCare, they nationalized the student loan industry. The Congressional Budget Office is estimating that will add $52 billion dollars to the national debt over ten years.''

The cited source is this article on CNS, which ledes: "The student loan overhaul legislation signed into law by President Barack Obama on Tuesday could add $52 billion to the deficit between 2010 and 2020 when the cost of the market risks and administrative expenses of the loans are taken into consideration, the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) reported."

Wow! That's pretty surprising! See, prior to the reform, the government would guarantee private loans. That is to say, a student would apply for a loan to a loan company, and that company would get the money from the government and give it to the student, charging slightly higher interest during repayment. So in exchange for a zero-risk capital-free loan (since not even bankruptcy gets you out of student loans) the lending company got a significant cut of the interest. Their role was essentially just to take your money and send you paperwork.

The reform eliminated the middleman, leaving the program almost entirely the same except that the government was no longer paying lending companies for their vital work of collecting checks. So hearing that it was going to lose more money... well, that's kind of hard to believe. What magic was at work?

But shucks! It turns out that when you check the actual numbers, it's a lie. Just a flat, bald-faced, unashamed falsehood being promoted as news. Checking the CBO report cited by CNS reveals that indeed FDLP (the new direct loans) loans would increase the deficit by $52 billion on a fair value basis. That is to say, if there were no loans at all, then this program's loans would cost an additional $52 billion or so when factoring in risk. But there are student loans. They existed prior to the reform. And without reform, they would have added an additional $105 billion. In other words, the reform will save $53 billion.

Reading the terribly-written CNS article all the way through is difficult, but it seems as though the author just plain doesn't understand what's going on here. I guess sometimes it pays to read the mainstream media... and perhaps even primary sources.-- 04:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Isn't 105-52 closer to = 53? Not 40? PS, thanks for the legwork.  I almost believed CP and wrote a lettre to my congressladies!  04:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe fixed. Thanks.-- 08:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maths can be difficult, especially "addition" and "subtraction", which are of course, branches of multivariable calculus, and only explained in layman terms by 23 dimensional string theory. So, no big deal.  08:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Those comments have prevented me from reading my bible, they must be wrong. --Opcn (talk) 11:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't read the report in detail, to see if their maths is right, or where the extra money is from, but the summary, at the start, actually indicates it's even better than what you worked out, AD - it states that, overall, the direct loan program will save $62 billion between 2010-2020, as it will cost $68 billion less, but the administrative costs to the government will rise by $6 billion. So, it seems, the CNS has problems even so much as reading the summary of the report it's citing. 92.16.221.75 (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You forgot to factor in lost tax revenue over ten years. Taxes on profits the banks were making and taxes on employee wage earners over ten years. Nor did you account for the cost of loans steadily rising as the cost of college rises. So defaults increase, late payments increase, the overall costs increase, tax revenue decreases, government expenses increases such as overhead/union costs and inefficiencies increase with sub-par government workers surfing porn instead of working. The govt has yet to make a profit on anything they do. If you believe they'll be in the black b'cuz of accounting gimmicks, you need to re-examine your unicorn.--193.200.150.137 (talk) 14:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And that lot's gonna add up to $53,000,000,000? Grow up! 14:19, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Grow up? Wow you really got me, good comeback, I didn't realize how mature you people are here. Might not add up to $53 billion and the CBO has never had correct figures. It will still be a significant money loser and will come close to multi-billions in the red. Right burnt toast?--193.200.150.125 (talk) 22:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course it will lose money. If a random troll says so it must be true! Think of the money the government is losing by collecting interest on student loans, rather than just taxing the interest banks collect on the loans. I just love it when cretins make up stuff and then complain about it. It shows what their true intentions are. DickTurpis (talk) 22:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It makes precious little sense to think that a small percentage (i.e. taxes) taken from the sum the government was paying these companies will equal the whole amount.
 * The government wasn't making a profit on this before. I'm not sure you understand: we were paying companies to issue assured loans.  They did nothing but do paperwork, and were directly funded by the taxpayers in exchange.  The loan terms don't change, so "defaults increase, late payments increase," and so on will all stay the same.  Overhead and union costs may rise incrementally.  But all of those things are drops in the bucket compared to paying companies for their excellent work at getting in the way and taking money.  BoN:  you are a dumb person who has made a dumb statement.-- 14:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh and Medicare/Medicaid overhead and administrative costs are between 2-5%. Yeah, baby.  Suck on that mighty Truth.-- 15:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Ken banana WIGO
What the hell is he even trying to get at with "Conservapedia could carve out of a banana an ideology with more backbone than atheism?" That doesn't even make sense. Ken (since I know you're reading), would you care to enlighten me? 03:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think, but am not sure, that it's some bollocks to do with the design of a banana implying special design for monkeys and humans to eat it, it's perfectly designed apparently. n00bs. Tweety (talk) 09:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * he's saying atheism, as a theory, has less backbone than a banana. what's not to understand? Honestly guys, do you just switch to "ken said it, therefore it's incomprehensible gibberish" or something? He's wrong about this, but his point is plain to see. Totnesmartin (talk) 11:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ohhhh. I misread it. I thought he was saying he was going to carve atheism into a banana. 13:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And "hur hur, they're wearing Santa hats" is an argument with a backbone? I'm reasonably familiar with the Atheist Experience show over the past few years and the video Ken's linking to is absolute cobblers. They failed to mention that theists are actually prioritised by the call screeners, and the participants in the chatroom during the show regularly complain when atheists just call in to agree. We enjoy arguments and disagreements. The policy against having theists as guests is more down to avoiding having people coming in to proselytize, since public TV has quite enough of that already. -- 11:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I may have been thinking of the wrong thing, but I'm sure Assfly and his minions kept wanking on about a banana being the atheist's nightmare a while back? Tweety (talk) 12:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 'Cause of this 12:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Incidentally: we're #1 on a search engine beginning with "G" for banana fallacy. 12:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah cool, I knew that creationists had some sort of flawed logic around bananas. Yet all they do is demonstrate ignorance of natural selection. Tweety (talk) 12:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The Atheist Experience had a Christian pastor on the show on January 10. Shock of God posted his video on March 29.  14:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Pointing that out to Shock will simply get you blocked from his channel. Shock is more fond of the blockuser button then CP is of banning, and that is saying a lot. --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 15:52, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I listened to a few of his videos. That guy's a special kind of asshole. The comments make me a little nauseous. I'd be happy to get blocked for speaking the truth to this person. 17:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ken's choice of metaphor is pretty weird, even though I "got" it the first thing that come into my head was the intelligently designed banana fallacy. Had it been by TK I would have assumed the statement was intended specifically to generate a WIGO. --[[Image:TheEgyptiansig001.png|link=User:TheEgyptian]] 11:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Rjensen's latest exploits
Prof. Jensen recieves a warm welcome from the "inventor of Wikistalking." (Note to Dick Turpis: ED's | Wikistalking#Wikipedia Official Manual cites the notorious Rangerdude case verbatim). nobsdon't bother me 21:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, no, Prof Jensen was an arrogant ass, and Will Beback reminded him that he shouldn't be an arrogant ass. That's all. -- Nx  / talk 21:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC) Say Rob, what are you wasting time here for? Shouldn't you be wikilawyering building your case against those 88 refs you've got such a hard-on over for possible wrongthink? --Kels (talk) 21:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm confused: why don't you mention this on CP - or WP?  21:28, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It'd get reverted on CP, and no one one WP cares. 21:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody on RW cares either, of course. But it is a good opportunity to call Rob an idiot. --Kels (talk) 21:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey he got McCarthy's name taken out of a list on the page, I think he can call it a job well done and give up while he is ahead. tmtoulouse 22:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Made Lipson non-notable, too. The true notablitly (such that is) rests with a collective group of founders. (And we schooled some of young rats on basic civility, on and off wiki). nobsdon't bother me 23:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ames is in a panic. What, pray tell, has come over him? (other than the fact he finally got a real job). nobsdon't bother me 23:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The only schooling I see is you being schooled in regards to WP policies. -- Nx  / talk 23:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So your happy with the article then Rob and we can all move on? tmtoulouse 23:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Happy? I'm finally gonna learn about YEC, evolution, Lenksi, Dawkins, etc., stuff everybody knows I've stayed out of. Since it's labourious to review underlying cites for factual representation, which I've done a lot of over the years (see for example my only contact w/Lipson in CP ), editors can show good faith by correcting thier mistakes now.
 * You and Sid handled yourselves well, but even Mediators won't bother skimming Sid's longwinded hypertext. nobsdon't bother me 01:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I learned a valuable lesson in how Rob can't put together a coherent argument. I feel like I've grown a little here. --Kels (talk) 00:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rob fails at remembering something that happened just a few days ago. --129.19.137.241 (talk) 01:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You could trim that to the first two words and it would still be true. --Kels (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sure it will be your greatest opus Rob, let us hope the margins are not to narrow to contain it. tmtoulouse 03:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rob Fails --129.19.137.241 (talk) 08:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Nice job breaking it, Andy
Andy doesn't understand the concept of daylight saving time, so he brings his server in sync with his Casio F91W by retroactively and globally changing the time zone. An edit made on Feb 25 at 05:17 is now being reported as having been made at 06:17 and my archive update from last night is completely fuxored. What the hell, Andy. What. The. Hell. mb 06:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there any way to link that? Or is it just your private fucked up file? 07:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no single link you can demonstrate this problem with; all their timestamps have moved one hour into the future so their wiki is still internally consistent. You can use pairs of links, though: this live diff link shows the same main page edit this old capturebot png shows, only the revision timestamps have changed from 07:19 and 07:46, respectively, to 08:19 and 08:46. Some examples based on reasonably successful recent WIGOs:


 * If you have time to kill you can take this as far back as there are pre-fuckup screengrabs on file. mb 10:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Take a look at signature timestamps: they changed from EST to EDT. This is why using UTC as the server time zone is better. -- Nx  / talk 10:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's kind of what I was trying to say: Andy's switched on daylight saving for the entire year, including those parts the rest of New Jersey has been known to happily spend in the standard zone. This is not the kind of mistake that happens to everyone. mb 11:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure it was Andy - our server switched to EDT as well, but we're not forcing MediaWiki to use the local timezone -- Nx  / talk 11:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What you mean "our server"? The OS? The wiki looks as though it's still on UTC from where I am standing. I agree Andy wouldn't have these problems if UTC was an option for him. mb 11:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the OS reports EDT (and the hardware clock is in EDT instead of UTC, Ubuntu does that for compatibility with Windows). MediaWiki ignores that and uses UTC, unless you specify the time zone using a configuration setting (Here's the documentation - good luck figuring out how to do that). He could of course switch to UTC, but obviously he doesn't want to use a liberally biased socialist time standard. -- Nx  / talk 11:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention unAmerican, being based on 0o longitude which doesn't go anywhere near the USA and is probably a product of liberal atheist London (see WIGOs passim) 14:28, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Righto, gents. Isn't London one of those SILLY FOREIGN CITIES our friend TK doesn't want on his web site? Also, universal time reminds me of universal healthcare, and you can't set an AMERICAN encyclopedia to an INTERNATIONAL clock anyway. I mean, what would be next? SI weights and measures? ISO 216 paper sizes? mb 15:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I just have to point out that the CP server time has been CST for ages. Andy's just moved it to EST. I think. IE, where he lives, as opposed to where the host lives. 01:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I might stand corrected, yeah, he moved it to ocean time, or EDT. 01:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, Rob
You never fail to make me laugh. Yup, that "linking and tying" is an awful thing all right. --Kels (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, it's definitely evil to link people you disagree with to awful extremist causes on the flimsiest of evidence. Such a disgusting tactic, don't you think, Rob? Junggai (talk) 21:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Naughty christians
Unlike other colleges, Grove City College maintains a 50%-50% balance between men and women in enrollment. So there must be some sort of discrimination either positive or negative in their admission criteria? Tut tut, not very "Conservative" or "Christian". 16:46, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was expecting something a good deal more entertaining in this thread. Tsk, tsk.  -- 18:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait, they let women go to college now? What happened to baking cookies for the men?  Dammit, where's my sammich, gotta make it myself again?  01:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Almost two years on
And Andy's ass is still sore from the spanking Lenski gave him (check the bottom change). EddyP (talk) 16:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't find it the least bit surprising that those slobs let the article accurately state the consensus view of Behe's "science" *and* include a citation to liberal atheistic evolutionist talkorigins for more than a year. Ken's got tunnel vision and nobody else except Andy is even capable of "clearing out liberal bias" by turning Behe into a skeptic of common descent where the quotation provided clearly has him accepting it. Nice find, EddyP. 21:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

5 . 4.. 3... 2....
I wannabe a wannabe. Should be interesting watching the countdown to deletion/bannination. 17:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * His response to Karajou and Andy is weak . They're going to jump all over it. Senator Harrison (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Urk. Don't throw them softballs, no funnies will come of it. Jaxe (talk) 18:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's becoming a "been there, seen that" type of debate. It will eventually be oversighted by TK after Thoward gets banned and we will forget it ever happened.  Conservapedia is not the place to debate these things.  Pretty much nothing to see here.  Senator Harrison (talk) 18:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Snapshot of full discussion since the inevitable has happened. Typical Karajou tactics: "If you wish to call something I don't like science, you must prove it completely!", with a nice assertion: "It's called a 'theory' for only one reason: it cannot be proven; in fact, it's been consistently proven false on nearly every single point it stands on". --Sid (talk) 18:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And Andy comes in with a definitive response after the guy's been blocked . No lastwordism there, then. 19:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's hilarious that Koward still has that sysop pledge on top of his page about not arbitrarily blocking people. Really highlights his hypocrisy.  Your old unit must be so proud of you, Koward! --Kels (talk) 20:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's not loose this either --129.19.137.241 (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder what evolutions fear more: beauty in nature or the banana. Personally, both keep me up at night. Keegscee (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The beauty of bananas. --Kels (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * MOAR --129.19.137.241 (talk) 21:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Just...wow. Ed's reached new depths of idiocy on this one. Ed, you've won the award! You can stop campaigning now! --Kels (talk) 21:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Capt. 22:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What's with Captain Mei? :P --Sid (talk) 22:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You can be Midshipman Sid. Unless that is not a real position and I have accidentally invented it. 22:37, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Did Andy let someone else have the last word? Or have I jumped the gun? --129.19.137.241 (talk) 06:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Loads of stupid
Inbetween live-blogging The Sixth Sense, Ed Poor drops by with this piece of stupid. Acei9 20:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "If this theory is true, then God does not exist." - Ultimate headdesk moment that follows once you start out with "All of the Bible is 100% true and must be taken at face value (uh, except for the parts we don't like) !": "IF God, THEN Creationism. IF NOT Creationism, THEN NOT God."
 * What a fragile and weak God these "Christians" believe in... --Sid (talk) 21:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember, we're dealing with the biggest idiot at Conservapedia (and henceforth frontrunner for the world championship). DickTurpis (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The question of course is who actually said it, what context, and did Ed remember it correctly? Somewhere else he said he heard it as part of a speech, which likely means either (a) a nutter said it or (b) Ed heard something similar and made up the rest.  It certainly sounds more like something a religious nutter would say than an actual scientist, and Ed's more likely to listen to a talk by a nutter in any case. --Kels (talk) 21:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Variations on "atheist" appear around 31 times in CP's article on evolution. In contrast, variations on "selection" appear just 14 times, which is only two more occurrences that the name Hitler. The word "genetic" appears 33 times. God appears 19 times, which is kind of odd for an article purporting to describe a scientific theory. Hard to see what else they can do to highlight the obvious links between atheism and evolution. Andy has his work cut out for him, assuming he's still reading Ed's attempts to prove that he's more than just a carbon sink and chair moistener. -- 22:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Give it a rest, please.
The clue is in the word, Jpatt: "secular"! 11:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (See Jammy's WIGOed it) 11:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he was using "secular" as an insult. 13:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ed's edited it.82.23.208.15 (talk) 14:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather impenetrably: Google easter and you get (surprise! surprise!) lots of easter related links? 14:20, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He's probably never noticed the doodles, poor thing82.23.208.15 (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Who knew that if you googled something, it gave you search results? EddyP (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder how far down those results cp's Easter article is?82.23.208.15 (talk) 14:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder why Jpratt thinks that a company that's oriented towards lightheartedness and fun (they had a Popeye banner at one point for crying out loud) would suddenly get all serious and Christian because it's Easter? It's like expecting Hallmark to stop producing Easter bunny cards. --Kels (talk) 14:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC)I updated the wiggo to reflect my namesake's discovery; I hope no-one minds. EddyP (talk) 14:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When you say "wiggo" it makes me think of Wiggum, which is strangely topical in a discussion with Uncle Ed in it. mb 15:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha ha! Ed completely missed the point. 15:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Andy didn't get an easter egg this morning :( EddyP (talk) 16:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...the Olympics are atheistic? --Sid (talk) 16:10, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought the Olympics were the best of the public? -- PsyGremlin  17:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would have thought them pagan if anything. EddyP (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC) They're Greek and we all know what them Greeks were up to nudge, nudge, wink, wink . 16:20, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Andy's getting to the stream-of-consciousness phase, I see... --Kels (talk) 16:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It is weird to see Andy's simultaneous hateon for atheists and his willingness to credit them for everything, atheists now are responsible for Halloween! --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 18:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I have to admit I am a bit surprised that Google didn't fuck with its logo to today, as they seem to take just about any occasion to try to do something clever. I'm pretty sure they alter it for Christmas every year. Then again, I guess they do kind of like to keep things fresh, and since they've probably already replaced their o's with Easter eggs at least once its probably old hat. Can anyone remember for certain if they've done an Easter logo in the past? I'm assuming they have (and I think I recall it) but I couldn't swear to it. DickTurpis (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Jaxe (talk) 18:46, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Best video game evah! 01:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * and here are all the logos they've ever done: http://www.google.com/logos/ <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 20:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

A new counterexample?
Andy fails reading comprehension again. His linked article clearly states that the lake has dried up due to rivers that feed it being redirected. Acei9 00:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He's still on that "It takes only one "counterexample" to disprove the theory of (whatever)" trip, I see. What an utter load of bollocks, the man just proves how little he understands any sort of science or logic. --Kels (talk) 00:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, technically, he is right, but everyone knows it's more complicated than that. 01:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well no, one counterexample means you study why this is different from everything else, and re-checking your data to make sure you didn't make a mistake. Then you modify the theory, you don't toss it in the junk. --Kels (talk) 01:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly. One counterexample only disproves the theory if and only if you are 100% sure of its validity. But, since this is Andy, he does make that assumption when it is in his favor. 01:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if the counterexample is 100% valid, it's doubtful the whole theory would be tossed, too. After all, if you've already got a huge amount of evidence that agrees just fine, why throw that out just because of one data point?  You just expand the theory to encompass the new data. --Kels (talk) 01:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless, of course, you happen to be Andy. 02:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, if you're Andy you toss the whole thing out before you find a counterexample. Saves time. --Kels (talk) 02:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Silly me, I forgot how AndyLogic™ works. 02:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In other news, Andy spent Easter Sunday editing some dumb blog on and off all frickin' day. 01:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How the fuck does Harvard Law fail so badly at training a lawyer in basic logic? Makes me feel better about my piece of shit education. --129.19.137.241 (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I like the new WIGO. Very well written. Keegscee (talk) 01:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Very concise. Andy would approve, if he could comprehend.  02:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Harvard Law doesn't force you to learn anything; you may want to read this classic essay on the subject. The only time they actively challenge you is during admissions. Once you're in, you're in a place designed for spoiled brats, entitled little twats who have been taught to expect an A+ basically just for showing up. You only really have to study and better yourself if you want to, i.e. if you're a Gore, a Kerry, or an Obama. If you don't want to because you're a boozehound like Bush Jr or if you can't because you're dumb like Schlafly that's OK too. Keep in mind that Andy got in on a legacy admission. mb 02:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Very good indeed, bookmarked. 03:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. Liberal much? Keegscee (talk) 02:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Who, Deresiewicz? Experienced, I'd say. mb 02:55, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha. No. I was talking about you. Praising Gore, Kerry, and Obama and criticizing Bush and Schlafly. I don't know about Bush, but I don't think Andy is stupid. Deliberately ignorant might be a better term. Keegscee (talk) 03:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was basically quoting from the article. Go read it, really. Me, I'm probably not liberal-as-opposed-to-conservative in the American sense since I'm not American; my country divides along different lines and nudges people into different camps. mb 03:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Does Andy think Geologists claim the lake (and, for that matter the Great Lakes) have been around since the beginning of time or something? It's all very bizarre. --Kels (talk) 02:47, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, since his Earth has only been around for 6000 years, I'm sure he does. Also, I know very little about earth science, but don't lakes dry up quite frequently (relative to the age of the earth)? Keegscee (talk) 02:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The Caspian sea has also shrunk drastically, after the inflowing rivers were diverted . But I still don't see how Andy manages to equate this with proof against an old earth, unless he believes that the Earth has never changed. CS Miller (talk) 03:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In my sleepy state, I thought the Aral Sea was a shrunken lake (WP) in Israel, and the Caspian was the shrinking one in Russia. The Aral is in Russia, and shrinking, the Caspian isn't shrinking, and several in Israel are. However my original point that just because a Sea can shrink quickly, doesn't mean that the Earth is young still stands. According to WP, if the Strait of Gibraltar were to close (and presumably the Suez Canal as well), then the Med would dry up in about 1000 years. CS Miller (talk) 23:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We're talking AndyLogictm here. Any fact (or pretend-fact) that pops into Andy's head can be a counterexample against the things he hates.  It doesn't matter if there's any logic to it, he'll shoehorn it in and, once there, defend it to the death. --Kels (talk) 03:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Old earth types"?..wtf isthat all about...this guy is the most blatant hypocrite ever. Pacodog (talk) 03:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

(UD) Here Andy explains it. And it is very logical. I myself am an "Old Earth type", and I indeed deny, nay, vehemently oppose the very thought of a lake decreasing by 90%. Because if a lake has been around for thousands of years it must still be around for thousands of years to come. Nothing that has lasted for a very long time will ever come to an end during my lifetime, it must always be at some point far into the future. My beliefs would be shattered were it not for my safely closed mind. Internetmoniker (talk) 10:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Like liberals, Andy really has no understanding of what the "other side" actually claim. Epic fail. 11:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * All I got from Andy's reply there is that either he never read the article, or he is deliberately ignoring the real cause for the Aral Sea's loss of water in order to attempt to prop up his pet "theories". He is either stupid or a liar (or both), there are no other explanations. --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 15:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Once more it's Andy making a statement about something and being unable to admit he's wrong no matter what anyone says. It's happened too often for us to be surprised at it surely. He gves something a quick scan[TM A Schlafly], makes a deduction from his flawed reading and thereafter won't be swayed. 15:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And that, more then anything else, is what invalidates the entire site as any sort of online wiki encyclopedia. His inability to ever admit any of his beliefs are wrong, no matter the amount of contrary evidence presented, combined with his active and absolute power over the content of that site, reduces Conservapedia to nothing more then his personal blog of rants. --BMcP - Just an astronomy guy 17:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Oldie but goodie
See the first bullet under item #1. I don't know why but I think it's hysterical. 03:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That whole page is full of win. 03:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. My favourites:

-- 09:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * we do not block for ideological reasons (So long as you're not a damn dirty liberal)
 * Administrators are selected as needed from the best of the best contributors (CollegeRepublican?)
 * Without transparency from users, there can be no accountability (burning the evidence and Special Discussion Group?)
 * Simply by attributing a statement to the person who said it, we can turn bias into fact. (Delightfully Orwellian)
 * You must be civil. No bullying (Calling people "clueless" and accusing all and sundry of being liberals doesn't count)
 * Bias gets in the way of reliability (Perhaps the most honest thing they've said)
 * Copying slabs of text from multiple other sources (har har)
 * Talk is a time-waster (And raises awkward questions)
 * Never seen that page before. And Andy wonders why non-conservatives exist? The teamwork section is a perfect outline of why people aren't conservatives: "Let others boss you around," "take assignments from other," "Conform to formats, styles, and emerging patterns of article organization." Andy basically wants everyone as his bitch. 18:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Fun. "The proper approach to a questionable block is to ask the person who implemented it to reconsider." Doing so will get you blocked as well, for "MYOB". 91.3.144.138 (talk) 00:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Tea Party Poll
There's a new poll out that indicates that a breakdown of the Tea Party composition is two-thirds conservative, 26% moderate, and 8% parodist. Pacodog (talk) 04:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Refs on talk pages aren't a good idea. Just link 'em like I left it.  Thanks!  05:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. I'm new. Pacodog (talk) 05:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem at all. 05:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was surprised that the comments managed to interpret this poll as "everyone hates Obama and all Democrats." Even if they just read the headline, it's a bit of a stretch. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 06:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

am I missing something or does that article say of 1000 people interviewed 17%, more than 500 people, said they were tea partiers? Are these people taking Andy's math class? DickTurpis (talk) 14:45, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's very poorly phrased, but it apparently is supposed to read "The Winston Group conducted three national telephone surveys of 1,000 registered voters each". 17% of 3,000 would be 510 people. --Sid (talk) 15:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Karajou's New Toon
Well to give credit where credit is due, he's getting better. This one actually has a good message, a decent punchline and a clever visual. However, it really only works if you accept that the Democratic Party is somehow socialist..... Also, it's not really funny, but that's subjective. I wonder where Karajou stole that one from. 06:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * user:HeartOfGold? 06:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The drawing is decent, but Karajou still hasn't dealt with for the core problem of being trapped in a timewarp. His stuff would be amusing if printed in a circa 1930s newspaper. He's missing some of the major elements of comedy. There's no misdirection, no subtlety, and no real basis in reality for the underlying premise.-- 10:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well obviously there's Andy's reality. 10:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He still doesn't communicate well, since the donkey (that's a donkey?) isn't that obviously reacting to the mark, which in turn is pretty out of date these days. You don't see the Hammer & Sickle much any more, so as CR says, it's trapped in a timewarp.  It's better drawn than his usual stuff, I'll give it that.  Meanwhile, Andy casually insults thousands of working cartoonists, and a rich history of cartooning that Koward can only hope to scratch on his best day ever. --Kels (talk) 14:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Casually maybe. I think when Andy uses the word "master" he's just expressing ignorance of the work of real masters (5 bucks says a McCay or Herriman article would be deleted as pop culture) and fawning to Karaturd because he blows that sweet sweet smoke of sycophancy straight up Andy's ass so well. 14:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He can draw a decent cartoon donkey, but that's it. There's really no humor beyond that. It's almost as if he drew a cartoon of Obama saying "I'm a communist!" Wow. Hilarious. What is hilarious is Andy's reaction. When I read it I was certain it was a parodist sock, and a banhammer was about to fall. Then I saw the name. DickTurpis (talk) 14:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comparing apples to apples, stick Koward's stuff next to anything from The K Chronicles, Tom the Dancing Bug, This Modern World, or even old Pat Oliphent stuff. He's so far out of their league, it's a wonder he's still in the solar system. --Kels (talk) 15:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right. Andy means political cartoonist, not someone doing cartoon art in the broader sense. I never look at political cartoons so missed the distinction. 17:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When Andy says "master" he means the best of the public, not the expert cartoonists with their elitist "subtlety" and "drawing ability." 15:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hell, Koward doesn't even rise up to the level of Mallard Fillmore. That's gotta be depressing. --Kels (talk) 19:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I just looked at it again. And indeed it is well-drawn.  But does the headline "Democratic Party branded as communists" occur to anyone?  I know the "I love it!" then still "makes" Karajou's point, but still...  How about a new caption/speech balloon competition?  I vote for "sticks and stone may break my bones, but unfounded branding will never hurt me!" Well, by "vote" I mean "I think this thing I just whipped up is funnier than Karajou."  But then again, I also own a hammer and a sickle.  Also, I uploaded a suspicious photograph to CP.  03:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

"You can brand me communist, but that doesn't mean they own me!" 03:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

So what exactly is TK's point?
That because 54% of people believe so, it's true?. Didn't more than that believe the Earth was flat at one point? I never understood the anti-video game movement. I've been playing violent video games since I was 4 (F YEAH DOOM!) and I can't even kill a stinkbug. Sigh Senator Harrison (talk) 04:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if that is TK's point, by his own standards, we shouldn't do anything about it anyway, as 72% say it's down to the parents as to how much sex and violence kids are exposed to. So, if we have to follow one, we also have to follow the other, and leave it up to the parents. 92.20.45.65 (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Standard of the world
[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Daily_Mail&curid=34037&diff=767505&oldid=767499 I know he's just trying to get us to bite but... ] 20:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * urgh. Nothing worse than a jingoist. Acei9 20:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi TK, you jingoistic fuck. You are quite wrong in your assertion BTW. Which standards has America invented? Chivarly? nope. Democracy? nope. Metric Standard? nope? English standards? nope. Acei9 22:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC) Acei9 22:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Standard Oil. Vulpius (talk) 22:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * attention whore craves attention. Acei9 22:48, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Daily_Mail&diff=767546&oldid=767531 - correct link? Cause that looks more like a "wrong window" rather than whoring.  --Sigma 7 (talk) 23:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, its whoring. Acei9 23:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Radar, chaff, and jet engines (Britain and Germany), VTOL (Britain) CS Miller (talk) 23:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't forget good ole Uncle Joe (man made satelite, animal spaceflight, human spaceflight, civilian supersonic flight, and insanely un-usably large H-bombs). --[[Image:TheEgyptiansig001.png|link=User:TheEgyptian]] 23:51, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, I smell Poe in that Daily Mail article. Mind you, the whole site stinks of it so.....P.S.  Good luck CP editors in trying to get rid of the Poe from the article without looking like you're caving into liberal pressure.-- 23:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, TK? Well the Greeks invented anal sex. Top that, troll! – Nick Heer 01:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Topping that: The Jews invented/discovered/(documented it earliest) Onanism.  Now top that.   02:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

ud Attention whore has made a list http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Daily_Mail&diff=next&oldid=767531 none of which are 'standards'. Oh, and an extremely sophisticated production-line was in use at Portsmouth Dockyard in the 18th century. 82.23.208.15 (talk) 23:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

- even on another site. 00:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh come on pilgrim, he might write us a "gentlemen" message if we egg him on enough! And, yeah, his list of "standards" was nothing of the sort. I offer ROHS (Or is it RHOS? Too lazy to look up). The only "standard" I can think of that 'merca stuck the world with is the bizarre p-metric tire sizing system, which includes inch-based rim diameters.   03:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And the voltage/current output of cigarette lighters. 03:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that TK doesn't know the difference between standards and inventions. What an ignorant old man he is, and as Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".  07:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh look, the page lists Eric S. Raymond. I love this wiki. I love this wiki so much. mb 12:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

CP not fans of liberals on Richard Posner's list of "top public intellectuals"
Just wanted to recount my ten minutes of trying to troll Conservapedia, for what it's worth.

Reading the article on Ann Coulter for lulz, and noticed this little gem: "U.S. Federal Judge Richard Posner called her one of America's top public intellectuals"

Kind of vomit-in-your-mouth worth stuff, huh? But then I decided to check out this list of "top public intellectuals". It's not only 700 names long (which sort of lessens the sting from your burning esophogaus) but includes such folks as Chomsky, Carson, Zinn, Said, Sunstein, Krugman, etc. etc. etc.

So, I figured, why not append this glowing endorsement to everyone's page? Within minutes the intrepid TerryH had used the nuclear option (including wiping out an even more innocent edit from months ago). &mdash; Unsigned, by: 173.32.90.78 / talk / contribs


 * Cool story, bro. 00:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Riveting tale, chap. -- Bunchanumbers
 * Fascinating anecdote, sir. Barikada (talk) 06:07, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sublime raconteurination, my esteemed colleague. 06:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Reminds me of the nazis and mass murderers who were added to the list of famous homeskolars. 07:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Voting
WIGOs seem to be getting a lot of votes recently. Is traffic up? Or is it just because there are fewer WIGOs because not as much is going on over there? 01:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's that the new WIGOs are awesome. Keegscee (talk) 02:14, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At Tet, it's both. Our traffic is slowly increasing, whereas their activity is slowly declining. We are now a bigger site by all measures except people coming to laugh adding pageviews. We have more editors, more edits, and probably more (true) content.  04:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Their activity last month was actually up 8% from the month before. Oh, never mind, it's also down 43% from the same month last year. I made some new charts this Sunday but I found I couldn't be arsed to post them anymore. mb 06:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember a time when we were concerned what RW would be without CP. Alas, I think the roles have reversed, what would CP be without RW? Just look at the WP talk page. Its all RW. tmtoulouse 21:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Loving big guv'mint?
at 12:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Ken's urging re Abortion
Bert's joined the anti-abortion lobby. So far he's the only one though. 18:14, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Somewhat funny.
Not sure what series of events lead me to this page but it gave me a chuckle. Acei9 20:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ken's life is just bloody great. It would be normal if not for his habit of using PCP as a sugar substitute. I'd love to see the world through his eyes, but only for a few minutes. Yeah, must be a fun story behind this one. -- 21:14, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They banned THE Dr. Richard Paley of Objective Ministries from CP as a parodist? Certainly not!  His writing is the purest and most informed writing ever on YEC. HumanisticJones (talk) 21:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At this rate, Ken is going to ban either Andy or Terry next. Betting is now open. – Nick Heer 21:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, that makes sense. It certainly explains Ken's unblock and swift re-blocking. I'd forgotten about those guys. Thanks. -- 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

March 2010 and CP and RW
RW is more vibrant, counts more edits and more editors. And it is not dominated by an old guard...
 * RJJensen edited only once more than CollegeRepublican
 * the editing sysops are divided into two groups: the old guard, who created their accounts in 2007, and the not-yet-outed-parodists of the year 2009
 * last March, 501 editors made 13,009 edits, this March, there are only 226 editors, making 7481 edits. This site is growing rapidly!

13:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Spiffing! Webbtje (talk) 15:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I love your graphs. Good work! Senator Harrison (talk) 17:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should graph pageviews since that is the most telling sign of progress, 7 mil homepage. Check out their ranking among Conservative blogs. Oh it's they all come there to laugh, sure you can say that to make yourselves feel better. RW views/ page manipulation bots only affect no more than 5% of the results, if that. Have a Holy Thursday.--193.200.150.137 (talk) 18:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's telling that 348 editors at RW made 16,600 edits last month - and only two (TK and RobSmith, btw) got blocked 19:08, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yah, awfully closed minded, intolerant and oppressive of minorities. Thanks for highlighting that.  nobsdon't bother me 19:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Rob, for pointing out more obvious facts about CP. What would we do without you? DickTurpis (talk) 19:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, RW is the place to complain about CP and RW. Doesn't sound too closed minded, intolerant and oppressive of minorities for me. 20:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks everybody for appreciating! 20:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Seriously, man, your charts are works of art. mb 22:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

lol, CP as a whole is waaaay under the 90/10 rule!!!! Alain (talk) 20:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

BTW, dear BON, all the numbers have to be taken cum grano salis: while clicks may originate by clickbots, many of the edits aren't legitimate either - it will be quite amusing to have Aschlafly comb through the Bible translation when JacobB is outed as parodist... PS: works of art jeez, thanks! Upps, April 1st... 07:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Check out their ranking among Conservative blogs. Conservapedia is one of the leading conservative blogs. No doubt. But is it a wiki? It becomes less and less so: there is only a handful of contributors, and a discussion on content doesn't take place any more. 07:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * They are bloody impressive graphs, how long does it take to pull together that data? Didn't realise we have more active editors than CP now... Pretty sweet. yay RW! --[[Image:TheEgyptiansig001.png|link=User:TheEgyptian]] 00:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I try to be micro-invasive: so, it takes up to one day to gather the data via some perl scripts. Then, it's a couple of minutes for the R scripts to produce the pics... 15:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the graphs you've been knocking together. Interesting to see the sites compared - particularly with the distinction made between blocked and active editors. -- 22:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Once more Andy makes capital out of the misfortunes of others
Andy says: "And his suicide was not because he was bullied in school, which is what liberals usually claim in order to promote their harmful agenda further." with no evidence at all. 14:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Makes me wonder if it really would be a bad thing to giggle like a monkey if Andy and his ilk were to contract particularly painful and terminal ailments. He's a nasty piece of work, and only gets in to the human race on account of a technicality. -- 19:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Added to cheap shots. What a gigantic tit (not the fun, bouncy kind). – Nick Heer 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If there's really a Hell like Andy believes, he'd best pray that Jesus is more compassionate and forgiving than Andy seems to think He is.--WJThomas (talk) 23:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Andy, I have nothing but contempt for you. Fuck you. --Ireon (talk) 08:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Andy's a cunt. If people like him are going to heaven, I'll gladly go to hell. 13:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Fidel Castro
According to those Obama-loving lieberals at the CIA, Fidel Castro is alive. CS Miller (talk) 22:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Eventually Castro will die. How is Andy going to react to that? Keegscee (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It'll be another FBI incident. Anyone drawing attention to Andy's earlier and incorrect claims will be removed. I don't think Andy would admit to being wrong, but I also doubt he'd postulate some kind of "Weekend at Bernie's" conspiracy to suggest that Castro had actually been long dead, but his corpse had been carried around and brought to cocktail parties in order to create the appearance of being alive. -- 22:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Weekend at Bernie's. Haven't seen that in years.  Time to hit Amazon and purchase my own copy I think.  And while I'm watching it I also get to have the lulz of watching it and comparing it to Andy and Ken dragging around the corpse of Conservapaedia.  Oh, and what was the name of the one with Elliot Gould as the zombie news reader?  Might get that at the same time.-- 23:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Link not work well from what I could see. Better one?  03:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That addressed to me? Open the "Government" tab, and then scroll down to "Political parties and leaders". Or for a different page, . CS Miller (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! 02:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When Castro finally meets his end Andy will be like "A severe blow to the liberals as they finally admit their deceit that fidel Castro is dead." The problem is that whether Castro will live surprisingly longer than Andy.   05:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of Cuba, CP has a thing up about Elian Gonzalez(sp?) on the borken news template. Why is it that conservatives hate illegal immigrants, but they make a giant exception in this case? 07:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Part of the conservative ideology is no need for consistency. Unless of course you're a liberal, in which case none of your views may be contradictory. Keegscee (talk) 08:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman MDB (talk) 16:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "Do I contradict myself? Fuck you, open your mind and you'll see that I and the Bible are always right!  TK, ban this idiot." -- Andy Schlafly --Kels (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)