RationalWiki talk:Webshites/Politics/Archive1

Suggest adding USA News Politics
Extreme right-wing regurgitator, basically Hillary and Obama and everyone they know are criminals, Hollywood Elite, etc. Agreeing comments by the score evidence dazzling echo-chamber right-wing brainlessness. https://usnpolitics.blogspot.com/ — Moray (talk) 03:14, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Disputed content
So allowing untrue shit about leftists designed to provoke harassment is ok with rationalwiki now?
 * Your argument is flawed, since it relies on the premise that this listicle page is designed for harassment. The page is intended for nothing of the sort, merely listing bad sources and explaining why people shouldn't use them. 17:51, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Its not flawed because the people i removed from the list dont belong there, theres no sources that back up the claims made here and links provided are just links to peoples channels and others are using this site as a means to target these people. How do you think I even found this? This isnt a link of bad sources, this is a link of some bad sources, and people that the person who entered them just dont like. I havent been on this site since 2014 but back then we didnt engage in kiwifarms like smears of people.
 * So, by your logic we should just delete the entire thing? Because that's what your saying. Whether you intend to say that is another matter. Further, if there are people misusing our Webshites list, then they are doing so without the backing of RationalWiki. Finally, you claim that the people you removed don't belong on this list, yet you have neither provided evidence for that claim nor disputed the accusations against them. This sounds to me as if you merely wish to remove those you like, while keeping those you dislike. 18:07, 22 June 2019 (UTC)


 * No thats not how this works and you know it. You all put unfounded claims about those people, the burden of proof is on the person who put them there. As i have stated the links about them do not back up the claims made about them, most of them just link to their individual youtube channels. How do you rationally expect someone to prove someone didnt do or say something when no real proof has been shown that they did? What is stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
 * Now, you are either being willfully ignorant or blatantly dishonest. A), I did not add those entries, I merely stopped you from removing them. B), The sources used are the channel links. They may not be good sources, but they are sources. And C), Again, you assert that the channels do not bear the claims out. If true, take it up with the mods, because (again) right here and now it looks like you're playing favoritism with entries. And again, you have neither provided evidence for this list being used for harassment (I'm not doubting your claim, merely pointing out that you haven't provided evidence) nor have you explained why your argument cannot be inverted towards subjects who are shitty sources. For example, let's say someone came in claiming that this list was being used to harass the editors of Breitbart, but they provided no evidence for this claim and merely insisted that the Breitbart entry be removed. Would you be willing to simply accept they're hearsay and remove said entry? What if it was the Stormfront entry that was in question? Would you still be so lax in your standards? 18:36, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I didnt say *you* put them there i said *you all* as in the site as a whole, and i later specified "the burden of proof is on the person who put them there". I didn't not specify you personally. Now who is being dishonest? The sources are the channel links? How does that remotely make any bit of sense whatsoever. The person who put them there made very specific claims about those people and provided links to youtube channels with hundreds of hours of watchtime. With no links to specific videos and timestamps, no specific links to tweets from those people saying what the author said they did and no links to any transcripts of videos specifying where those claims can be found. Also comparing leftist youtubers to stormfront is absurd and you know it. I saw a lot of the events that sparked these claims and its mostly a Ship of Theseus style argument where something was twisted woefully out of context to the point the claim has nothing to do anymore with what actually happened. Im going to use the claim against Eric Taxxon as an example here to demonstrate what i mean. Eric's retelling is basically what happened in his case. This is why i am insisting that you either find real concrete sources for those claims or retract them. You are being used by bad actors.
 * Fuck it. I just got done writing a long post explaining why I'm standing in your way, why your argument is poor, and why I made the argument I did. But you know what? Fuck that. Fuck explaining shit. You're going to ignore it because it isn't what you want to hear. Fuck it. I don't fucking care that much. Do whatever bullshit you want for whatever bullshit reason you like. Fucking crap. 20:16, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Get your ass over here and explain your reasoning. I'm tired of doing it for you. 20:23, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * So in other words. You have no argument except you feel very strongly about this. I have provided a concrete example of what is going wrong here and you did not even acknowledge it. You are not discussing this in good faith. Using your logic a bad actor could just write *your* name into that list with a link to your twitter or youtube or whatever (idk what social media you do or don't have) and just *say* you were a cryptofascist or a terf or something else thats bad and then it would be on you to prove you weren't, which you couldn't because you have no idea what they were basing it on.
 * No. I said you don't give a shit what I say unless it's what you want to hear. So, here's what you want to hear, do whatever you want, delete whichever entries make you feel bad. Ignore the consequences of your actions. DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, SINCE YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY. Ignore wht anyone says and do whatever you want. Do I need to translate it to another language so you can understand it better? You don't care what I say, you're going to change it no matter what, and to hell with precedent, to hell with consequences, and to hell with anyone who disagrees. I'm not saying your argument is good, (it's still crap) I'm saying that i don't give enough of a fuck to fight you on the matter. Go nuts and delete all the entries that offend your delicate sensiblities. Who gives a crap about objective reasoning. Not Skeptics, not Theists, not Atheists, not anyone on the left, not anyone on the right, not anyone in the center. No one gives a crap about what's true or false, only what they want. SO, with the fact that EVERYONE IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME!!! DO WHATEVER YOU WANT!!! 20:54, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You seem very upset by the fact I'm trying to help this wiki not be libelous. Its immoral and unethical to lie about people. This isnt just about removing those entries now. I need you and the rest of the people here to understand whats been going on under your noses or it will keep happening. So far ive been acting under the assumption that most of you are well meaning people who got suckered into defending this nonsense. While i had my reasons for leaving in 2014 ive never wished the site ill and I do not want it to become a new encyclopedia dramatica. You seem to be unwilling to accept the possibility that the eateries are wrong, and you refuse to even look into it. You also keep screaming at me that you don't care and that i should just do whatever i want, while the article is still locked by you. I also do not appreciate you having a meltdown when presented with some of the very proof you asked for. The way you are going here i have to prove these claims aren't true, but if i do you will throw a tantrum and scream at me.


 * Do you not see what you are doing here?
 * I unprotected the page, do whatever the fuck you want. Half our articles count as "libel" because people dislike the ugly truth about heir views. Who cares though, you won. Yay for you. By the way, the next time some random person takes issue with an article, guess what, they get to win too. No matter what their view, no matter how shitty it is. Yay for winning! Everyone wins!! (And everyone loses.) 21:20, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

OP, why not try doing something constructive, and tell us exactly how they are wrong? — Oxyaena   Harass  21:34, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I have tried up the thread when i said "I saw a lot of the events that sparked these claims and its mostly a Ship of Theseus style argument where something was twisted woefully out of context to the point the claim has nothing to do anymore with what actually happened. Im going to use the claim against Eric Taxxon as an example here to demonstrate what i mean. Eric's retelling is basically what happened in his case."

But i was ignored. The ones i removed were all involved somehow in the same drama event that is the source of these claims. Contrapoints is not a grifter. She makes a living wage making videos about topics she cares about, and has had an effect in deprogramming some of the people in the alt-right. While i don't agree with all of her takes sometimes, shes very new to living as a trans woman and makes mistakes, ones she usually corrects on when people tell her why shes wrong. Emerican Johnson makes puppet shows about leftism and is fairly harmless. Hbomberguy raised 300k for a trans charity. Angie Speaks was the victim of a harassment campaign because of the fact that an unpopular person was a 5 dollar patron of hers. Peter Coffin got caught up in it simply because he didnt want to take sides due to his history of the bad parts of the internet making stuff up about *him*, he wasnt comfortable with calls for folks to be exiled. None of these people are of course perfect but the accusations leveled against them are simply untrue, malicious and absurd when you actually look into the details.
 * People are legitimately angry at Contra, I don't know enough about the other people, but Contra has dissed nonbinary people, "pre-op" trans girls, and so many other people, she legitimately pisses me off. — Oxyaena   Harass  21:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Im not saying any of these people are perfect or have never made mistakes. Im saying contrapoints is not a grifter. Which she is not. Im nonbinary myself and was annoyed at some of her statements but i dont think it warrants calling her a scam artist. Thats just absurd. You can not like people without lying about them.
 * Also tell your friend to stop having a tantrum.
 * I am not having a tantrum. I'm expressing depression and bitterness. Delete my topic one more time and this whole discussion ends. If it bothers you that much, get the Mods to handle it. 22:21, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This is not a discussion, this is you flipping out when you were shown at least one of the claims was wrong and you refusing to look at it, all while screaming "lets purge the wiki so nobody gets offended" its not about being offended, its about being wrong. If you don't care about being wrong, perhaps encyclopedia dramatica or conservapedia might be more right for you. You are acting like a child with these absurd hysterical antics. Comparing some leftist youtubers who are humans beings, who while have made mistakes are doing their best and are acting in good faith with the nazis within the alt-right is just nuts.
 * You know it. I know it.
 * "This is not a discussion, this is you flipping out when you were shown at least one of the claims was wrong and you refusing to look at it" Shut. Your. Trap. And. Read. My. Posts. I. Conceded. That. The. Claims. Were. Weak. Multiple. Times. Get. Off. Your. High. Horse. 22:43, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Slander and libel, and defamation!! Let's purge the wiki so no one gets offended!

 * Slanders Neo-Nazis BURN IT!!
 * Defames an innocent Neo-Nazi and his right to murder people he dislikes That's got to go.
 * How dare we call a source that ignores scientific findings a load of crap We'd better kill off this one and hope they don't sue us.
 * Ditto
 * Double ditto
 * You know what, let's just burn the whole website to the ground and make a new one dedicated to making everyone feel as happy as possible!!! 21:52, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

source or delete
if you're gonna make claims like those present here (ie, that literally every leftist youtuber is super duper problematic for one very specific, concrete weird thing), you have three options: [1] provide sources [2] add said sources to their article or [3] delete it.

and yes, the "call everyone bad names without citations" style from 2010's RationalWiki is bad. that doesn't excuse making more bad shit lol 22:36, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I conceded that the sourcing was weak (Gesturing vaguely at a YouTube channel is about as weak as it it gets) My problem was with the complainant's arguments being equally as weak. (Entry makes claims about X. Negative things are happening to X that Y attributes to the entry. Y demands the entry be deleted. Y fails to elaborate.) It sounds familiar. I was already leaning in that direction, but I wanted a good reason, preferably with sources. 22:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hell, I recommended pruning and/or updating our standards for Webshite entries in general, Partly based on the complaints raised here. 22:58, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * no need to delete entry -- just delete claims ya can't prove 22:57, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I have little data on the disputed entries (Excluding Contrapoints' comments about trans people, which I've heard about), I was just here because there was edit warring and the argument sounded poor. (Contrapoints is still staying, on that I refuse to budge.) 23:03, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you prove shes a grifter? No you cannot. As for nonbinary stuff well. https://twitter.com/CommsSSBM/status/1140669154028085248

Response to above comments
Your hostility to the BoN was unfair. We have a policy about living people that I assume you are familiar with: "if a claim is not solidly referenced, asserts something about the article's subject(s), and the article's subject(s) might object to it, it probably shouldn't be in the article at all." The quality of sourcing on the RationalWiki:Webshites pages in particular have been dreadful for a long time (see here). If an entry has no description, or an unsourced description, then the BoN is right to remove it. It is reasonable to undo their edits if you are also substantiating the claims in the description with sources or, if there is no description, providing a valid reason with references. Sources need to be verifiable, so you can't expect someone to click a link to a YouTube channel and watch every video just to check if a claim is accurate. The BoN's position was uncontroversial: we should not keep unsourced entries about living people because we cannot easily verify if the claims are true. Your response about the page not being designed to provoke harassment is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if there is an innocent reason to add lazy entries with unverifiable allegations, such entries should still be removed. The BoN is also correct that you have the burden of proof backwards when you said that the BoN should provide evidence they don't belong on the list, considering they were talking about entries where there were no sources for why they do belong there. CowHouse (talk) 10:57, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Is this entry accurate?
Below is an archive of a deleted tweet that I suspect is the basis for the following entry. I can't be sure since the person who added it was too lazy to include a reference. The entry seems to assume hbomberguy is aware the person he is responding to was a sexual assault survivor. Is this the case? Am I missing any context?

CowHouse (talk) 13:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Burden of proof is kind of on the "he knows" side here, and if there isn't anything to suggest he knew, I'd suggest removing it. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 14:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Vaush
I really don't think anything Vaush has said or done indicates transphobia. The linked statement was about pronouns being dumb(as in he/she) because he cant type them on his phone readily. Furthermore, again, the "SJWs are a threat to Western Civilization" is very obviously a joke and in response to the poor reactions from the previously mentioned Tweet.

He absolutely has not called for the "genocide of un-contacted tribes" Actual statement: "I don't think they should be allowed to kill people extra judicially for crossing an imaginary line in the sand."

Lastly, "sexual predation" on Discord must be cited.

I have edited this page to no longer include this entry. &mdash; Unsigned, by: EcksThree / talk / contribs


 * As 100% of his video content espouses left politics, he is not "left in name only." &mdash; Unsigned, by: 24.22.223.23 / talk
 * Ah yes saying "fuck trans people" is just about how hard typing is. Thank you for elucidating.  For what it's worth, I did check on your concerns at least.  But I don't think we're going to get anything productive with that level of misrepresentation as a starting point, though.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:05, 14 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The opinions expressed on his channel run counter to claims that he is "transphobic." Taking statements out of context is a form of bad faith. Its not rational. &mdash; Unsigned, by: EcksThree / talk / contribs
 * You apparently started and stopped reading the section header at "left in name only." the full header is "Liberals, left-wing and leftists in name only" Now, with that out of the way we can get to the meat of the matter. Yes, his tweets were (bad) jokes, and yes, they were added in bad faith. Yes the claim of him being a sexual predator on discord needs sources. Yes, I think these particular claims should be removed. No, the comment about "I don't care if the tribes' immune systems can't handle contact" comment will not be removed. He is wrong, and misses several points. One, the missionary was told, repeatedly, that going to the island was basically a death sentence. Now, I don't really like borders, I think they're dumb arbitrary constructs. That being said, I also don't think wandering into to a quarantined area and trying to do a minor form of colonialism (missionary work is arguably a form of colonialism, given it involves people from developed countries, usually white, going to less well off countries, usually not white, establishing enclaves and trying to force a foreign culture on the natives) is acceptable either. You walk into a nuclear reactor core, you get radiation burns. And probably die. Tough shit. The post will likely be rewritten, it will not however be removed.  20:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * According to Nazis and white supremacists us not buying into their horseshit isn't rational either. What I'm saying is that that argument was complete trash, where you attempt to paint us as irrational in order to force our hand. That's stupid. 20:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * No one is "forcing your hand" you made what appears to be bad arguments. Your conclusions are indeed: punitive, irrational, or in bad faith. Given the largely foregone reasons, having his name as an entry in this list is just a form of punishment. I come to this conclusion because Vaush in the past has expressed disdain for leftist infighting. Therefor, if you insist on having Vaush on this list, perhaps change the tone of your statements. Instead of "supports the genocide of uncontacted tribes" say "has at one time expressed colonialist views regarding uncontacted tribes." Instead of "is a transphobe" say "has made jokes that could be interpreted as transphobic." However, as far as I am concerned he does not belong on this list. &mdash; Unsigned, by: EcksThree / talk / contribs
 * I've removed the more contentious claims and altered the one not under dispute to be more accurate and begrudgingly slightly more balanced. 23:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

, please sign your name on talk pages with four tildas ( ~ ). It will automatically add a date stamp. Bongolian (talk) 21:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. My no-script extension likes to truncate special characters. EcksThree (talk) 21:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

How is Vaush "a leftist in name only"? He's pretty damn explicitly leftist. So I really think he should be removed from this list, since he doesn't belong in it. DemSocks (talk) 14:55, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Chapo Trap House
The actions of an individual member should not condemn the whole or else would have to condemn a lot of organizations. I think declaring Trapo a "webshite" is wrong if their actual content does not meet the criteria of supporting fundamentalism, authoritarianism or support woo/irrational views or conspiracy theories. To me it sounds like someone doesn't like the podcast's political views so I am nuking it (is that the right term?) Tuxer (talk) 01:06, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually I am going to outright delete the entry because there's a fucking lot of entries that have no sources. Tuxer (talk) 01:09, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Vaush (again)
''"The following lists of webshites contain really bad sources of information - or really good sources of bad information. Be forewarned, prolonged exposure may result in the following side effects: nausea, depression, high blood pressure, loss of IQ, periodic outbursts of hysterical guffaws, broken keyboards and monitors." ''

Vaush is described as left-of-reason, and yet, included in a category for bad sources of information.

Does this logically follow?

Webshites should be reserved for those with consistently poor takes, not one or two errors (even if they're fairly big). Rationalissimo (talk) 14:09, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes ( ~ ) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you. 14:08, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

"Leftists in name only"
To all you illiterate dipshits, please note that you're looking at a hybrid category, and that there are two other qualifiers. Then use your fucking brains. 01:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Why do we have this?
I may be missing something - but what is the the purpose of this endless list?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * No idea. 2A0B:F4C2:2:0:0:0:0:1 (talk) 00:06, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at the first five links. Two of them are to youtube channels, one of them self-described as having disbanded in 2019, and having posted nothing in a year, and the other having 3 videos, including nothing in the last 3 years. Somehow, this leads me to question the value and quality of this listicle. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒   talk  00:19, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So we can call everything we don't like "shit". Yes, this entire page is a bloat eyesore, bad even for a listicle. Most of it was written by a single user long ago. To be fair, I think we should do just like we did to the Reddit list and trim this page as much as possible. Although, to be fair, I'd gladly delete the entire thing. GeeJayK (talk) 14:21, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
 * what is the purpose of this again? is the prime minister of uk a webshite now? no mark youtubers and crazy websites seem like different kinds of shite to leaders of national government. ted cruz is here too. and plenty of other people that are actual people and not digital media or primarily associated internet based activities.
 * could some sort of purpose be defined of this page and criteria for inclusion on this page be clarified so we can start a culling? else we are going to return here periodically to question why its here or like it is, only it will be larger as the true believers love list more than most.
 * guessing this same conversation could be had across all the webshite pages and not just the politics one. recent activity suggests some pages will be a little more fractious than others to get a grip of AMassiveGay (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

really what is the actual point of this? its not useful resource for anyone, its various people's private shit list coming together to insist its rw's own official shit list. with 'shit' being super subjective and dubioius. i just followed a cite to a supposedly racist meme on twitter which for the life of me i cant see the racist in, but is all there is to show apparent racism, while a claim of posting a youtube of i have assume is a youtuber of infamous despicability but doeswnt say what video while the youtuber themselves appears to be of infamous 'meh'ness (its shoeonhead whom our article sternly disapproves of much meh out of context quotes). really what is the purpose of webshites except an outlet for the one or two true believers who seem to be constantly updating and adding to them with sites deemned unworthy less than consistent veracity. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * So we can show to everyone sites we don't like. Also free advertising for them. Honestly, these subjective lists should be deleted. Most listicles are bad, and these "website" listicles are probably even worse than the average. GeeJayK (talk) 21:29, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
 * A list of bad sources could be useful (similarly to Wikipedia's deprecated sources). The only problem is, there is no real quality control or oversight to what goes in here, and the criteria for what qualifies are also unclear. We could require discussion before adding something, but with hundreds of sites to go through that would be very impractical. Another option is to use polls like the ones in WIGO for quality control, but that opens it up to spamming and vote manipulation. Plutocow (talk) 23:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Philip DeFranco
I loathe the guy, but he seems a bit shoehorned in here, especially when you compare him to the rest of the stuff on the list. He seems like a standard "both-sides centrist" Youtuber from what I've seen, like Boogie, H3H3 or idubbz (though the latter two have apparently come to some kind of realization as of late), and if we're adding people just for edgy humor, complaining about SJWs, and not going after the right enough, the list would never end. 103.119.209.226 (talk) 00:44, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

How notable are some of the names on here?
I know that is not a de jure policy of the wiki, but it has become something of a de facto policy over the years. I'm wondering if some of the people on here merit actual attention, missional they may (or may not) be. Vee (talk) 17:53, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No idea, few people have read the full list, I know I didn't. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 18:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It's an unpleasant reading experience with all of the unformatted goddamn links 03:27, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Working on Pruning this list
Ok so, I started pulling some of the deader links. For transparency, justifications are as follows:


 * A Conservative Lesbian - Site last updated FEB 2018. Throws certificate error.
 * Anthony Ergo - Added because they'd purportedly created a Youtube channel to harass Rian Johnson when Fandom Menace was peaking, but seems to have wiped it. Other social media largely dead/private.
 * Anti-Democracy Activist - No updates since DEC 2021, 10 blog posts last year. Small-time Wordpress blog.
 * Ashley Rae Goldenberg - The list of people who support BLM she created is down, and her Medium blog (CommunismKills) is suspended. Seems like the last thing she wrote as a journo was 2020.
 * THE ASTUTE BLOGGERS - Active, but a small-time Blogspot blog. No other apparent online presence aside from linking other blogs.
 * Atavisionary - Last post dated NOV 2021. Mostly just occasionally tweets now. The list of blogs that the link points to isn't of much use -- like half of them end with "blogspot.com" or "wordpress.com."
 * BrabenderCox - ...was this an advertisement that got slipped in? Anyways, it's an ad agency. Their social media has not been updated since 2020 except for one retweet.
 * The Comical Conservative - Looks like a generic conservative meme page on Facebook, run by an ad company.
 * Conservative Black Chick - Twitter private, website ostensibly dead. Only really known for a single bit about Trayvon Martin. And the struggle chicken.
 * Constitution.com - Appears to have become a parked domain in APR 2022. Now redirects to a premium domain name sales site.
 * Creeping Sharia - Site last updated APR 2021. It was a Family Guy April Fools post.

Will add as links are removed. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 02:53, 5 November 2022 (UTC)