RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive30

New schedule day!
Just got my schedule for the fall from the college. Details over here, because I don't want to have to type it out all over again. Generally, I'm pretty pleased with it. No classes earlier than 10 am, which means easier trips on the bus and not having to get up at 5:30 (although I'll probably still get up relatively early). Looking forward to the Design class especially, I want to get a lot better at backgrounds and locations. --Kels (talk) 22:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * hmmm... lots of long blocks: good in that when they are done, they are done. bad in that they can be looooong.  Sterile 02:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is true. But on the other hand, 3-4 hour blocks with a break in the middle are more typical of art courses than the 2-hour blocks we had last term.  In a way it's especially good, since one thing I really need is more discipline (which is funny, since all my friends say I'm very disciplined), and this would give me more needed classroom structure.  We'll see how it goes in practice. --Kels (talk) 02:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Looked at timecube again recently
I usually check up on timecube every 6 months or so because he adds new stuff. Evidently he has cancer now, and the front part has gotten a bit crazier since I saw it last. The sheer racism has gotten worse too. He really, really does not like Obama. ENorman (talk) 22:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You made me look at Time Cube! Now I need to lie down with a wet towel on my head! 22:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. He's making his previous crazy look almost sane.  Corry (talk) 23:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note the Bald Eagle with its white head brain with its powerful Black body made me spray my screen with water. He really has doubled down on his insanity. --PitchBlackMind (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ...Wow, I'd never seen that site before. Now CP looks almost sane. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 03:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the idea that Gene Ray is actually right, one day he stumbled upon the secret of the 4 corner earth and it drove him insane. Now he gets crazier and crazier because no one will listen but he still holds the key. Ace McWickedModel 500 05:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, he's obviously right. The only problem is that we can't understand him.  Sad, really. I struggle, but I always give up when I've barely reached the third corner.   05:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, Ray probably is right. Does anyone else ever get those dreams where suddenly reality is explained and you come to realise how the world truely works and just as you wake up screaming "IT'S ENLIGHTENMENT!!" you forget every aspect of it. I think Time Cube is just what happens when you don't do the forgetting part. 13:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Timecube is the key part of the equation needed to calculate the Question. While humans are part of the computing process, no human was meant to know all of it. He accidently the whole brain. ENorman (talk) 15:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Me, being the complete retard I am, just e-mailed him on flaws to his site, and offered to help him 'clean it up', as it were. I know he's batshit insane, but I can't help but pity him. It's much like when I tried to help ASchlafly with his debate tactics. -- CodyH (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

(undent)The eye-rape is proof of how crazy everything is. Noooooo ENorman (talk) 21:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, thought you'd trick me into looking at the word soup blog that is timecube huh? Well you've failed. I promised myself I would never look at that splurge of shite ever again. 22:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I need to vent
Endless Eight...... GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!ENorman (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not quite the endless I was expecting, to be honest. --Kels (talk) 21:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Story in novel- 30 pages. Story in anime- 8 episodes. Possibly more. Fuck you KyoAni ENorman (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Amen to that, brother. Probably the single biggest anime disappointment since the subbers dropped "Mouryou no Hako" at episode 8. They've got 8 volumes (cos S1 covered Vol 1) of cleverly written material to work with and we get this? I was hoping for "The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya", but all that's disappeared is her off my viewing schedule. Replaced with Zan Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei and Tokyo Magintude 8.0. (this otaku moment bought to you by Pocky... because people will eat twigs if you flavour them.) --PsyGremlinWhut? 10:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Climate change
Nice bit on BBC world news now re: Greenland & GW. 01:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A thought.
Assume for a moment that a state with a significant Amish population switched over entirely to electronic voting machines. Should the stete be required to provide machines that accomadate the religious beliefs of the amish, in this case, limited technology, to maintain fre prectice of religion, or would voting be exempted? Your thoughts please. 03:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the Amish, but I'm all for advanced technology. It won't kill them to vote with the new machines. The Government can't reasonably accomodate everyone's preferences. Refugee talk page 03:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What they consider advanced varies wildly. Roller skates are fine, but bikes are a no-no. Stuff like that. ENorman (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, each parish/church/town or however they are organized makes their own decisions about what tech is OK. If they want to vote and have it count, I'm sure they can figure out a dispensation.  Anyone ever see that crazy action movie where our hero was stuck in Amishtown while on the run from rogue FBIagents, or some such tripe?  It's pretty funny.  04:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I met an Amish guy who had his own diesel-powered generator to power his wood-working tools. His explanation was that it wasn't so much the technology that was being rejected it was the forfeit of self-reliance. Once you buy into modern technology you rely on a so many other people to keep it running. Of course they completely overlook the absurdities of this stance. Although they didn't have electric light in the village store they used oil-lamps but, as with the diesel generator, they need a whole industry to supply them with the fuel. They were also quite happy to utilise modern medicine when one of their kind was ill. I attended a large fund-raising event by Amish in Illinois selling home-made stuff or horses etc. to raise money for someone's hospital treatment. They just don't believe in the concept of insurance. As with many of these religious nut-jobs, most of their self-imposed rules are fairly arbitrary. On the other hand, I give them credit for their hard-work, self-reliance, community-based and fairly peaceful life-style. I could never understand why the women had all their garments secured by straight pins as buttons were considered "too fancy", but the guys had button flies on their trousers. 06:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Nail meet head, head meet nail! Genhis is totally right. I'd possibly go as far as to say that it's impossible to forsake all modern technology and become self-reliant. And even when you do, the cur-off point for what you consider "modern" or even "technology" is extremely arbitrary. Is the deisel engine old enough to be okay for them now? Even the wheel for carriages and the harnesses for horses are modern in a wider context of civilisation going back thousands of years, and even so, they're still technology. I imagine it's just a case of "elders" saying that "x is okay, y isn't" to benefit them - like "we're the elders we need this TV to track important things that could affect the community like politics and law and we're responsible enough to use it without being tainted and we certainly won't be watching the Playboy Channel"... But going back to the original point, I'd like to think I could push it and claim that it's my deepest religious belief that my vote must be counted in blood. 07:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Amish, and some of the old order Mennonites too, don't vote. They view voting the same way they view military service or swearing oaths in court, as accomodation with the sinful world.  They view themselves as a separate people.  That is not to say there aren't some Amish who do vote, but those who are willing to compromise on that matter are probably more than willing to compromise on the technology issue too. NEED VICODIN NOW (talk) 12:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear
As much as I love PhD Comics, I hope creationists don't get wind of this http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=761 They'll have a f**king field day... Never mind that it's cynical comedy. :S 13:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That has always been a favourite of mine. Nobody really does the "scientific method" in just one paper though, it is usually the accumulation of many papers that produce the results that we call the method. Fortunately with those big copy-right stamps all over it being posted on websites isn't likly to happen. 13:49, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also Jorge Cham is an engineer not a scientist, so it probably looks a lot like that to him anyway. 13:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he's qualified enough to say so. But the first part is certainly true, although it probably mostly applies to industrial funding, with funding bodies like the EPSRC you can get away with quite a bit sometimes. 14:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Fact-tag overload?
Maybe I'm a little too used to Rational Wiki, but while searching through some stuff (no, I can't remember why) I read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_myths Surely this is a bit overload, even for Wikipedia and a subject that's difficult to verify. There must be hundreds of them... 16:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, 72 or so. 16:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I notice that some sections begin with the fact tags. What does this mean?--BobNot Jim 16:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure, although I have just removed the claim about David Copperfield from it. It looks like it was just some bollocks that some gossip sites made up, Yahoo picked it up from the newswire and then retracted it because it was completely blank. I'm just wondering if people even read the refs, so is it possible to replace all the tags with links to random nonsense?  16:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How many people do read refs? Probably not many. Looking at the talk page, it looks like it's all the result of a bit of a fight in June this year.--BobNot Jim 16:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I really like this part: "The 1973 National Geographic article on longevity also reported, as a very aged people, the Burusho or Hunza people in the Hunza Valley of the mountains of Pakistan,[27] without any documentary evidence being cited.[citation needed]"
 * ~ Kupochama[1][2] 16:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I was thinking. Which is why I put the crit into our WP article that arbitration there is usually useless because all they can do is try to achieve balance and neutrality despite knowing nothing about the subject at hand. In which case, the WP article is a mess and RW could probably do a better job. And because we don't push NPOV everywhere, we can outright call them myths, legends and unsubstantiated claims (which they are) without starting a spat over the style guide. 17:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Netbooks
Anybody got a netbook? What do you use it for? Would it (easily) double as an ebook reader?--BobNot Jim 13:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt they'd be the same as an ebook reader, they're not quite that small and the point of the ebooks is that they're like paper, with no backlight so they're less stressful on the eyes. So, while they're portable enough to work and powerful enough to read pdfs, I doubt they'd do the same job as an ebook. 14:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting. 14:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I use a netbook while travelling mainly just to pick up webmail and do some browsing. I have MS office but wouldn't consider doing anything too strenuous that involves multi-tasking. As for using one as an e-book, remember that dedicated e-books normally have a portrait display compared to a net-book's landscape format. 14:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * PS Their light weight and built-in wifi means you can take them into the loo instead of a newspaper or magazine, :) 14:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that final comment. Although it conjures up bad ideas of exactly what you'll be browsing for in a toilet... 14:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I knew that I was taking a risk posting that - but your insinuation is inappropriate I have the privacy of an entire flat to do with as I please rather than withdrawing to the smallest room for "recreational purposes". 14:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Re landscape mode. I was under the impression that there were utilities which would configure the display to landscape. I'd quite like to have one of these - but I'd quite like an ebook reader as well - so I was thinking about trying to kill two birds with one stone.  I know it's not ideal - my question really is, "How far from ideal is it?"--BobNot Jim 15:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the utilities are generally at the driver level and are chip specific. Although there is a $50 utility which claims to be able to do it as well. For non cpu intensive work then they are great. As ToP says they are ideal for note taking and can run to playing mp3s. I also have a sling box and use mine to watch TV away from the set. Screen real estate is often at a premium with the small display so get the best resolution you can. If you are reading pdfs then you could rotate them and scroll laterally. :)  15:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Any manufactures models people would like to recommend?--BobNot Jim 15:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The ACEr with the 10-inch screen and the 160 gig hard drive. bought mine on Amazon...TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that TOP.--BobNot Jim 16:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Use a netbook all the time for taking notes/doing research/writing at the library--mine has a 160 gig hard drive, so I can take my music collection anywhere no problem, too. Was thinking of an e-book reader until Amazon went all Big Brother on the Kindle a couple of weeks ago--no more. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never liked the Kindle for the very reason that virtual paper of that sort can be arbitrarily modified at any time from afar, Ministry of Truth style. Nobody listened to me when I ventured to predict that such a thing might happen; now it has, in a manner that shatters the irony meter. 15:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What was the story on the Kindle? (Which is, by the way, not available in Europe.)--BobNot Jim 15:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I love the first kindle. Same size as a paperback, high high contrast monochrome e-ink with no backlight, a passable browser with wifi, and an easy interface. The new ones have a keyboard and are twice as large. And therefore suck. 15:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The day they make a waterproof ebook reader I can use in the bath is the day I buy one, and not one second prior. -- 17:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Netbooks, in my opinion, suck donkey balls. If you touch type, you'll find 'em unusable. The keys are so diddy, every key is about an inch to the left or right of where you think it's going to be. Even typing a short email is an orgy of backspacin'. The only advantage is that they weigh about 3Kg less than my laptop does to get the same battery life, but 3Kg ain't really anything if you're carrying it on your back. -- 17:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I've used my netbook (Eee PC, 8.9 inch screen, $250) for all of my computer endeavors over the last six months or so. After about a week I got used to the keyboard. I do a lot of composing and I'm starting to get into video editing/animation rendering and that is where netbooks fall down. Can't really upgrade the audio or video cards. If you have an HDTV then hooking up the netbook should be very easy, thus saving the drawback of small screen space. Also you can get a huge ergonomic wireless keyboard and hook it up via USB. Couple that with a wireless mouse and you have a very nice setup for home use plus an ultralight travel buddy. Highly recommended (if you have a backup for multimedia.) 21:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I will squitz a little when Apple comes out with the tablet - with an Apple wireless bluetooth keyboard and a wireless mouse - I simply cannot imagine anything more sublime. 01:05, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * @ Bob- Amazon used the intertubes to suck 1984 and Animal Farm out of all the Kindles one night. You would think that the people running a company built on books would have read enough to understand irony.  That said, I have no desire for any kind of e-reader.  I love holding a book.  I love the feel of the paper, even the smell.  If they ever stop making paper books, I will be very sad.  Corry (talk) 03:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation Corry.--BobNot Jim 08:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was because they'd been illegally uploaded in the first place & they've promised never to do it again. 08:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just been to look up the story. Don't know if it's funny or frightening.--BobNot Jim 09:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Amen, Corry. I'm very fond of the smell of books, especially new ones. I can't imagine a world without paper books. --PitchBlackMind (talk) 04:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Another advantage of paper books is that they can be used as impromptu weapons, which you just can't to with ebooks. 08:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but when you don't live in an English-speaking country, and your local postal service (and other delivery services) are a bit temperamental then digital delivery can have advantages.--BobNot Jim 08:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * When the power is out/cable is down, you can still read books by oil lamp light. I've always been partial to a highly flammable bunch of shelves full of great and not-so-great writing.  One thing I wish I got when I buyed my fancy monitor was the versions that could rotate to "portrait" from "landscape".  06:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Pish. I brought my 1st gen Kindle on vacation for 2 weeks and never plugged it in once. And I'm sure you can get a book shaped/scented air freshener to hang around your neck for the olfactory dissonance. Heck, stick the Kindle inside a larger hardback to fight that tactile dissonance.  What else was there? Oh, and leave all those stacks of used books exactly where they were so people know ur smurt.   17:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Power cuts don't' bother me. Got battery back up for my PC for about half an hour and a back-up generator a shed outside.  But to respond to Human's other point -  I've also got a dam big monitor, but should have got a rotating one.  Ah well.--BobNot Jim 20:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My brother has a netbook. His advice is to make sure you get a second battery. And a word of warning on Li-ion batteries. Their useful life starts the moment they are made and not dependent on recharging cycles. To extend the life of your battery remove it from the PC when it is on mains power and store it in a zip-lock bag in the fridge (not freezer) high temperatures shorten the life of the battery and this applies to camera and phone batteries as well. Also, a 50% - 67% charge is best for storage rather than 100%. 21:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Freaking cool video on vortex rings
BBC is so much better than what we get in the states. Check out this dope video:

17:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been really concerned that TV pop science is all explosions after watching some of the trailers for that programme, but it looks pretty good. He actually did some explaining (!) about what the vortex is, rather than planting some explosives at the bottom of the brick house like Brainiac would have done. 19:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course you can make almost anything look good when comparing it to Brainiacs. Vulpius (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I miss Junkyard Wars and the first couple of seasons of Robot Wars. Those were so much fun. --Kels (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, good old Scrapheap Challenge. I loved that. 21:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I miss just being able to watch TV. Stupid FCC (mandated DTV transition). 02:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Chiropractic trading standards petition
http://adventuresinnonsense.blogspot.com/2009/07/please-sign-letter-to-trading-standards.html I'm not sure if this is widespread or just the one blog but RW may as well take a look. Following their 18 month long suit against Dr Singh and his so-called slander and libel for calling them out, Chiropractors finally released their "evidence", and of course, the Blogosphere has torn it to pieces in about 24 hours. Letters have already gone to advertising standards and trading standards, but these things attract most serious attention in higher volumne. So, if you fancy trying something useful, sign up. If not, there's a good explanation of the methodological flaws in these papers. Incidentally, as we lavished a lot of recent attention on the homeopathy article, it may be worth doing the same to chiropractic to keep up with the times. 12:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome. The funny thing is, if you ever criticise homeopaths, psychics, or conspiracy theorists, they just ignore you. Should you dare criticise a chiropractor, they will sue you, always. This time, they have royally fucked themselves over by taking too big a bite, and it's excellent to see such a massive backlash against them. A bit like the geeks at school all ganging up on the school bully and kicking the shit out of them. 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I seem to remember reading somewhere that Singh had been forced in to an indefensible position in the court case, and things weren't looking good. 21:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope the backlash continues. This was a particularly good story.  Corry (talk) 23:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We should report on this at WikiSynergy (yes I still go there). 02:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I noticed you wiki-whoring yourself there :p I'd be interested to see how the CAM world react to such a massive bitch-slap if this sort of thing does take off and result in effective legal action. 13:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Singh has ended up in a fairly tricky position, in that the judge ruling on the case has decided that he meant that the British Chiropractic Association were intentionally promoting treatments that they knew were useless, rather than simply being ignorant and not realising that that their treatments were useless despite the overwhelming evidence to demonstrate the fact. It's a fine line really, but Singh is now in the position of having to defend a position that he did not intend to put himself in.  However, in the wider sense, the BCA have really shot themselves in the foot.  Even if they win the case against Singh (and I really hope they don't), the attention that this case has brought them is going to force chiro. right out into the open, and they are going to be called on every single claim that they make. Especially anything that comes close to claims like treating colic in children and ear infections.  Even their own 'evidence' was a pile of crap in those cases.  Worm  (t  09:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Mmmmm...
Barbecued sirloin, baked potato, and home-made baked beans. Life is good. Fresh local strawberries and whipped cream for afters, with some DIY French merlot. --Kels (talk) 22:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 10:30am with beers, bacon and eggs and a packet of smokes. Life is indeed very good. Ace McWickedModel 500 22:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Store-brand frozen raviolli and Coca-Cola for dinner. Life is still good, but has no sense of taste. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 22:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ravioli and Coke? Euughhh. Coca-Cola is not an accompaniment to proper food. 23:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I once had some Coa Cola. I decided that a strong solution of sugar in cat's pee probably tasted better, so I haven't repeated the experiment. Try making your own ravioli - it whiles away an hour or two and can taste damn good.  23:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I like to keep 30-hour days, so it helps with that. And yet I never find the time to make food from raw things...guess I should try it before summer ends.
 * P.S. - "Euughhh" is about right. Coke doesn't mix well with garlic. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 23:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1:24AM! Coleslaw, lettuce, grated carrot, tomato, salami & STILTON. Who's weird? 00:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The rest of the list is irrelevant. Stilton is all that matters. --Kels (talk) 00:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * True! Oh forgot: mug of hot, black, sweet coffee. 01:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Deep-fried haddock and pommes frites, ahhhhhh yum. 'Bout 90 minutes ago.  01:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fish'n'chips isn't Welsh??? I don't deep-fry my dessert! That's chockies :)  04:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh! Sure you're Welsh not Scottish? 01:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Endless patches of wild raspberries:) My fav part of summer--Tabris (talk) 02:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmm ... love raspberries. We're limited to blackberries here. 03:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At Khant Acres we grow our own raspberies but also some hybrids like Tayberries and Loganberries. You should try them as they are much hardier than rasps. 06:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Chinese fried rice with veggies! chicken in sweet n sour sauce! and won ton soup! (all frozen, but I microwaved it myself) Refugee talk page 03:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you at least pimp it up a bit with some spice or sauce? 04:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Angel hair pasta spritzed with quite a bit of lemon, olive oil, and pine nuts. Delicious. --PitchBlackMind (talk) 03:49, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Spritz=bragging. 04:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My girlfriend made it, I can't brag. I'm a shit cook. --PitchBlackMind (talk) 06:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, cum on toast. So much cum that it starts to soak through the toast and I have to lick it off my fingers. Thick, warm globs of cum dripping down my chin as I chew the soggy toasted cum sandwich. Mmmm. Ace McWicked Model 500 03:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC) &mdash; Unsigned, by: 74.50.97.246 / talk / contribs
 * There's limits ... and I think you might have reached passed them 04:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you're not supposed to let the cum drip on the floor. Bad Ace.  04:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ....Now, I know I've engaged in dubious practices in my time but really, there is such thing as TMI man. 11:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Corned beef pie & turnips for lunch. Yum! --PsyGremlinWhut? 12:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

(undent)Just a thought... the BON that was "Ace" belongs to myproxy.ca, which doesn't appear to be blocked on CP either. Given TK's recent hard-on with Ace, I think Terry's just shared one of his fantasies with us. --PsyGremlinWhut? 15:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah what that fuck? Certainly wasn't me, you all that thats not my style at all. That's either Cicero again or TK. Probably TK, despite his bullshit about being blocked from editing. Ace McWickedModel 500 22:24, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Recommended books for summer reading?
Anybody like to recommend books for summer reading? science, science fiction, "light" philosophy?--BobNot Jim 10:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Try 'The Time Travellers Wife' (Audrey Niffenegger). It's been made into a movie due for release now/soon. It's a great book - just ignores the usual 'paradoxes' of time travel and powers on. I'm also interested in hearing what others might have to suggest.RagTop Gone sailing 11:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For good science you can either grab Bad Science or Science of Discworld. For light reading and good philosophy, maybe Atlas Shrugged? 11:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Second the Science of Diskworld suggestion. Also, Stephen Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series, but at 8 volumes @ 1000+ pages a pop, that's more than one summer's worth. Also George RR Martin's "Song of Ice & Fire" series (5 vols now, I think). Ok, those are fantasy, rather than SF (but some of the best since Tolkein and Donaldson). For science fiction, Tad Williams' "Otherland" is worth a read. --PsyGremlinWhut? 11:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thinking of sci-fi, try practically anything by Dan Abnett, and in-particular anything he wrote for the Warhammer 40,000 universe - although if you're not familiar with it, most of the references may be lost. That said, most of his 40K books are still popular with the non-gamers and often top some sci-fi bestseller lists despite their more specialised subject matter. 11:55, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Great. Lots to look at there.  Thanks to everybody - I'll check them out.--BobNot Jim 12:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * One more to add under 'science' would be Susan Blackmore's "The Meme Machine". Also the "Mind Virus" tackles the same subject, but the author's credentials seemed a bit dodgy. --PsyGremlinWhut? 12:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As somebody said before, the A Song of Ice and Fire series is great (the fifth one hasn't come out yet sadly). I've mostly been reading Discworld novels and Count of Monte Cristo lately though ENorman (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * World War Z, the Night Angel triology, On the Shoulders of Giants, and the Star Wars, Darth Bane series are all really good books. 22:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything by Asimov. I've been putting off reading my condensed book of the Foundation trilogy,heh--Tabris (talk) 01:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

(align=left) I don't get around to reading novels very often, but I've always liked Orson Scott Card's stuff, particularly the Ender's Game (sci-fi/psychology/xenoanthropology) and Alvin Maker (colonial USA fantasy) series. For the record, the later volumes of both have some Christianity-related philosophy, which may or may not be a plus; he's outspokenly Mormon, yet mostly neutral about it. Also he seems to be a big fan of Asimov. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 02:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I seem to think that there was some heretical fool around her who disliked Asimov. Was it TOP? Nevermind. I recommend Dune, but just the first one. The next four (the ones by Frank Herbert) are nowhere near as good, but the next nine billion by Brian Herbert are just trash. William Gibson is also pretty good- his trilogy with Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive are his best. Oh, and of course Dan Simmons Hyperion Cantos is decent, as well. -- 04:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Not according to plan
How not to demolish a building - roll it onto its roof. 11:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a flour factory, so it could have been much worse. Fine particulate flour, well aerated is extremely explosive. -- 15:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I remember a biology lesson in which we exploded custard... 16:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I bet they can't do that intentionally. 17:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would anybody demolish a turkey anway? --127․0․0․1 (talk) 23:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Not so grand canyon
A large gully scoured by floodwater in the outskirts of my home town has its own article on Answers in Genesis! Shame the author(s) seem to have no concept of size, or the relative resistance to water erosion of different materials.KlapauciusEsteemed Constructor 13:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A muddy field is a good model for quite firm sandstone granite and metamorphic rock right? 13:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't be daft, the Grand Canyon was carved from 6000 feet of liquid mud that had only just been deposited a couple of months earlier. Everyone knows how well wet mud forms sheer cliffs. 14:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And how rapidly it then turns into layers of stone. 21:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Anybody seen this?


Saw this on TVTropes. Should it be added to the Answers in Genesis article?ENorman (talk) 16:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're a recovering tropaholic too? 16:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course it should go up there. Why is it even a question? 16:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pssht, I was a tropaholic before it was cool to be one. And I'll put it up now. ENorman (talk) 17:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of TVTropes, but that's the best billboard I've ever seen. ~ Kupochama[1][2] 17:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Worse, there's a video that goes with the billboard. The message I took away from it is "believe in god or this extra from American History X will shoot you", which I don't think is quite what they were going for. -- 05:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we should transplant that quote into the article! 13:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Alan fucking Titchmarsh
This classical programme on Radio 2 would be great if it wasn't for whiny voiced bloody housewives' favourite pebble mill reject tv gardener turned shite novelist Alan fucking bloody Titchmarsh. Just sayin'. Totnesmartin (talk) 18:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Bloody Yorkshiremen. 19:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And that. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been out of the UK too long. The cultural references pass me by - no doubt our friends in the USA will understand all though.  :-) --BobNot Jim 19:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking as a Yorkshirewoman (It was Yorkshire day yesterday, BTW) I hate 'professional Yorkshiremen: Titmar, Parky, Truman that Ingham(?) guy et al but yer actual yorky's OK. 19:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yer forgot bloody Boycott! 19:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah ollus tries ter ferget bluddy Boycott! 19:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking as a Lancastrian... on the other hand, let's not go there. Silver Sloth (talk) 09:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely not go there, Lancashire that is.  13:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking as a Londoner, all I do is go on and and on and on about how northerners are ruining our lives! 10:36, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ooooh, York vs Lacaster! Fight! 13:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My money's on Yorkshire... they've got nukes, remember. --PsyGremlinWhut? 17:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Usernames
This article from cracked amused me, especially the first one when considering CP's username policy. 14:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * With a name like SuperJosh you can tell I have poor social skills. 14:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't know where I fit in. I just named myself after an object on my desk; An empty crisp packet. Lack of creativity I suppose. Taytopacket (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the related one on obnoxious internet commentators, I can totally relate to it. 15:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Great. It doesn't can my personality at all. 18:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Pfft. I don't want anybody's shiny Charizard.
 * On the other hand, shiny Charmanders are awesome by themselves, plus you can clone them and get a shiny Charizard, I'd give MY SOUL for that! 20:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So um.... what would Javascap fall under? 22:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Calling all ye attention
I would like to point out this ver interesting article on how Atheists and Christians can get along together. Enjoy reading, even if it does contain uncomfortable truths for both sides. 22:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting narrowing of the range to atheists vs. Christians. What about the other 2/3 or whatever of the world's population?  22:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I do suppose it did indeed limit, but I guess it was also the easiest on to construct. 22:49, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The point about atheists living as if God had laid down the law is, of course, bunk; people recognized morals a very long time before the old goat pontificated with his, and not divinely given ones either. 22:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What if we replaced "Christians" with white people and "atheists" with black people, and then wound the clock back forty-five years? Would the message to both sides still be "let's just get along with no hard feelings"? I'm not equating the injustices against AFrican-Americans with being a non-believer but the arguments are comparable. Currently in most countries those without a religion are in a minority and have little say when compared to the weight of organised religion of any creed. 23:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The way to forget old divisions is not to insist that each said division needs its own voice; if actually enacted that would simply write the division permanently into the law. 23:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I don't demand that humanists/atheists/secularists be given specific rights, I'd just like to see the special rights and influence of religion removed from the process. 23:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mind atheists, so long as they act like Christians. --Kels (talk) 23:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I started looking at the pretty pictures, then got distracted by the 6 most amazing and pointless abilities article. 00:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mind atheists, (after all, I am one or two) as long they don't endlessly argue the bible, 'cause that's boring, and Bertie did it so much better than they do. 04:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mind Christians as long as they behave like Christians. 04:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * With you there, slightly charred bread. 05:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mind people as long as they act like people, and not like upright apes. Sadly, this means that there are very few people I mind. -- CodyH (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I read it and then I read this and I think the former is along the lines of "if atheists would only STFU then we Christians might quieten down a bit too". Now here's a thought, when was the last time you had a couple of atheists knocking on your front door trying to turn you away from God? Don't all answer at once.  18:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

ListenerX for Bureaucrat
I am not too sure of the procedures we are now working under but I think I have to ask the mob about bureaucrat demotions now.

I would like to nominate our proud Minnesotan ListenerX for cratship. He contributes regularly, number 5 on recent edits per day at the moment. He is around the site a lot, which seeing as we need around the clock 'crats because all the latent vandals have sysop rights now is a valuable trait. But more importantly he is the kind of user I would like for our rational wiki. He is strongly opinionated and he argues well, but he is not unyieldingly fixed in his positions. He has even rewritten essays based on the feedback, how many other have done that? He debates civilized and with a strong rational streak, which is unique in internet debates. He has also done good work with side-by-sides, refuting nonsense what this site was set up to do. Basically I think he is a good asset to this site and we should weight him down with more responsibility before he leaves.

What does the mob think? 12:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't we have one of those vote thingys? Gets my endorsement. Silver Sloth (talk) 12:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we usually do it with the punch, vote and sig like,


 * Support 12:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I fuckin' hate that guy. Fully support for bureucrat. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 12:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, he's OK. Support the red-hatin' sumbitch. 12:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not? 13:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Capricious Oppose &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 13:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Having seen him defend a few of his essays, I'd definitely disagree with "argues well, but he is not unyieldingly fixed in his positions". Undecided whether that's anything that would prevent him being a bureaucrat though, so abstain. --Kels (talk) 14:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? Maybe that is because I find myself agreeing with him quite a bit. 02:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Sure.  I guess.  Whatever.  14:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Deserves it more than me. Support. 14:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't like the guy (or at least his apparent philosophy/world view), but support. 14:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Support -- 16:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe a consensus has emerged. I will make it so. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Damn you TOP! I made it to my computer seconds after you had done the dastardly deed!  -- 16:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it too late to vote NO?  19:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Good. Glad to see Listener X is now a 'crat. We need more bureaucrats from my state.The Goonie 1 (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Late support 22:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ...wholeheartedly support him. After all, Jesus can't return until AFTER the AntiChrist has taken over the world, right? 00:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ??? 05:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can't figure out the joke by this time tomorrow I will de-crat you. 06:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I get it. 19:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Soooo......
I've literally been on an island, out of touch for the last two weeks. Anything interesting happen while I was gone? 16:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I decided to forgive you for the spat we had over The Killers. ListenerX got made a Crat literally half an hour ago. And TK's just been on a big blocking spree in his typical style of blundering inelegance. 16:59, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How very decent of you. I will likewise forgive your poor taste in music and thank you for the update;)   17:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You are quite welcome. How was your island getaway holiday lark thing? 18:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Me and my brother-in-law went backpacking on Isle Royale on Lake Superior. Two weeks of carrying our lives on our backs up and down mini-moutains, totally isolated.  One of the hardest and most fun things I've ever done.   18:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Two weeks is a lot of food to carry on your back! That trip sounds like a lot of rugged fun. 19:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear that you made it out alive. Lots of people get eaten by wolves up there on IR.  The state is thinking about taking in all those Guantanamo prisoners and putting them on IR; any who manage to make it back to the mainland get to go free (kinda like regular Cubans).--WJThomas (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The Daniel Hauser Case
Does anybody agree with me that we should, somehow, fit an article about the Daniel Hauser case into RationalWiki?The Goonie 1 (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There has been a lot of talk about that case here, as I recall; a few news items made it into WIGO:World. 22:26, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be better as a section in an article on naturopathy? 23:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * See, I was going to add it somewhere on here, but I wasn't sure if it should be its own sub-article or not when you consider that it is such a good example of the harm woo-meisters can cause.The Goonie 1 (talk) 03:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Jesus sez: "Satan = Barack Obama"
I'm rather surprised that this little WND gem hasn't hit CP's front page (yet).--WJThomas (talk) 22:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not Satan, but the Antichrist. Big difference. 22:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not "Antichrist", "antichrist". So there.--WJThomas (talk) 23:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You'd think if they believed that, they'd wholeheartedly support him. After all, Jesus can't return until AFTER the AntiChrist has taken over the world, right? --Gulik (talk) 23:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The cynic would suggest that they are scared of Jesus coming back, because then Jesus would possess the ascendancy and not them, and they are a pack of hypocritical rotters besides. 02:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Palin
So I was reading the latest Newsweek when I stumbled across this actual Sarah Palin quote in the Quotables section. It runs exactly, and I mean exactly:

It is as throughout all Alaska that big wild good life teeming along the road that is north to the future

Please to discuss. --


 * ?    00:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No, my friend, it is a   ??    move.  -- 00:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So where and when did she say it? And how many "stumbles" are in that salad?  00:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here. Have a quote. 00:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It was in either her farewell speech, or the speech before that, I forget which. -- 00:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * [[Image:wtf.gif]] 01:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably the farewell speech, I guess. Man, that "N" in my sig phails.  02:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, that's better. 02:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone email it to Andy, as a fellow speaker of bullshit he should be able to decipher it. 10:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Welfare bludgers and the right to protest.

 * Moved to Debate:Welfare cheats at 16:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC).

Hell, YES!
Don't you mess around with CNR! --Kels (talk) 15:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Charles Nelson Riley Won the tour de france with two flat tires and a missing chain...ah yes. When you need to make Chuck Norris look like a punk, and you can't resurrect Bruce Lee in time, C.N.R. Is there to help. -- CodyH (talk) 12:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Chuck Norris? Take a close look right after he takes out that moose, whose head is that on the wall? --Kels (talk) 14:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's well known that the only man who could oppose CNR is the most interesting man in the world.

Links here, here, here, and here.

I passed! Yay!
A huge thank you to everyone the helped edit my written comprehensive. I just finished up the oral portion and passed with the highest distinction. Now all I have left is a thesis. That should be easy...tmtoulouse 22:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Congratulations (not that I helped...) and good luck! 23:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well done. 00:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My sympathies, friend. Con-gratch-yoo-lay-shuns! 10:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks for the thanks, TMT. If you need proofing for your thesis, then please give us a little more warning so that we can stock up on commas. 10:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, the sweet joys of the Oxford Comma. 12:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Congrats. :-) --BobNot Jim 12:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Gratz, dude. So what's the encore after all this? --Kels (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Kill Bill
I just watched the first one. Man, it's a weird film. It ends so suddenly as well. 18:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If I may offer some advice, don't watch the second one. It doesn't have the divine Lucy Liu in it (not least because she died in the first one) and in general it's kind of a let down. Kill Bill is good, mindless fun. Kill Bill 2 is similarly mindless, but not terribly fun. -- 18:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't think much of it anyway. The bit where all the Japanese guys run into the building made me thing "Is Uma Thurman really gonna take each and every one of those guys?" Lo and behold she did. Anyhoo, I thought Sin City was better. 18:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How dare you? Kill Bill Vol. 2 kicks ass. Sure there isn't as much wanton violence, but it's absolutely a better film.--PitchBlackMind (talk) 18:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand half of what was going on in the first part. Mainly because I bought the DVD in an airport duty-free shop and the subtitles for the Japanese-speaking sections were only available in Danish-Swedish-Norwegian-Finnish-Dutch. Caveat emptor. 18:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't need to know what's being said. Long story short; she nearly dies, then she gets a sword made and goes round wasting the members of the assassin group she was in who tried to kill her. 19:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Kill Bill moves were a strange beast. The first one almost completely omitted story for over-the-top blood and gore. Lots of flashy katana work, with barely enough backstory to flesh the characters out properly. The sequel, however, took a complete opposite approach, using the story to fill most of the movie while action served as fluff. I personally enjoy the revenge-type movies, and samurai flicks have always been a favorite. So, KB was a good choice for me. Also, I think Uma is sexy...don't judge. -- CodyH (talk) 19:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, Uma Thurman is attractive. It's just that she hasn't aged anywhere near as well as Lucy Liu has. Or maybe I'm just hopelessly obsessed with women with Asian or Indian skin tones. -- 20:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean something like what-I-just-posted-on-the-right-and-will-probably-get-chastised-by-Toast for? 21:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For teh posting of teh licentious picture: come to my office after school for chastisement.[[image:With a whip.gif]] For teh posting of amusing licentious picture again marks = 10/10.[[image:Evilgrin0005.gif]] 22:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

(Unindent) You're forgetting the class spoof of the old kung-fu movies, when the bride is training with the old (beard stroking) martial arts master. Cue lots of not-quite-accurate facial zooms! 22:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the "research" picture. It has been added to the other 300MB of "research". 02:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this the type of research you do in the bathroom when the wife is out? 07:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, my fiancée helps me with that kind of research. ^.~ 00:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait until you're married, then the only thing of yours she'll want to touch is your credit card. 15:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Uhh, we were actually talking about that the other day, and she said when we get married she doesn't want the house under her name (if we can afford one). It's all cause she's so turned off by credit cards and loans right now -- debt from her parents taking her cards and such.
 * and I thought you were talking about crossdressing, which she also helps me with [Citation NOT needed] 02:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

RationalWiki space
The name space for RationalWiki is, at least for my understanding, suppose to be for things related to the project. Several articles are probably in the wrong space. Instead of debating one by one I want to try to move them all in one go.

Essay
 * RationalWiki:Open letter
 * (Or: RA's User space, rather? )

Help
 * RationalWiki:How to handle vandalism
 * RationalWiki:Linking style

Debate

 * RationalWiki:Cat fight
 * RationalWiki:Do you know what deceit is? Moved to debate. --PsyGremlinWhut? 18:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * RationalWiki:Frontpage Rules - this should stay? --PsyGremlinWhut? 18:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * RationalWiki:Editing tabs
 * RationalWiki:Epic debate
 * RationalWiki:Poll Electoral College, 2008
 * RationalWiki:Polls
 * RationalWiki:What's wrong with being straight?
 * RationalWiki:What's Wrong with Being Gay?
 * RationalWiki:Site politics

CP (moved)
 * RationalWiki:Andy's Copyright Threats
 * RationalWiki:Messages to Conservapedians
 * RationalWiki:How did you find CP?
 * RationalWiki:Team Contest 3 Fantasy League
 * RationalWiki:Team Contest Fantasy League 4: The New Frontier (delete?)
 * RationalWiki:Sick of conservapedia?

Fun

 * RationalWiki:Wild ass guess
 * (Copy to Template wag as instructions & delete


 * RationalWiki:Goats for poetry affair
 * RationalWiki:Hidden Rules
 * Actually, I kind of like this one! Keep it in RW space, I reckon. 17:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * RationalWiki:Not Serious Business
 * RationalWiki:Please explain
 * RationalWiki:RW Secret Police
 * Delete. Unless anyone is particularly attached to the cabal in-joke. 17:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * RationalWiki:We Surrender. It was all a joke
 * RationalWiki:Casino
 * RationalWiki:Casino/CPslots (or CP)
 * RationalWiki:Casino/Slotmachine

I have no idea

 * RationalWiki:Who Here Has Read the Bible?
 * RationalWiki:Do Something!
 * (Delete.


 * RationalWiki:Do Something!
 * (Or: Delete.


 * RationalWiki:Have you read spiritual texts besides the Bible?
 * (Mainspace


 * RationalWiki:I don't intend to block any more novelty-named accounts
 * (Delete.


 * RationalWiki:List of users not to PWN
 * RationalWiki:Md5ip
 * (Delete.


 * RationalWiki:PEAS
 * (Delete.


 * RationalWiki:Ownership of RationalWiki defaults to Jellyfish!
 * (Pink's user space


 * RationalWiki:Parables
 * (Fun.


 * RationalWiki:Policy/Portal
 * (Delete.


 * RationalWiki:Policy
 * (Fun or Delete. 14:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * RationalWiki:List of cabalist moonbats
 * (Fun


 * RationalWiki:RatWikiWikiWiki
 * (Delete.


 * RationalWiki:Biblical creation on aSK
 * (Mainspace

Donate to RationalWikiWiki
 * RationalWiki:Blockspree

Anyone want to help tackle this? 09:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW I endorse your move ideas. As for the last section - do we need a name space called... 'Misc' of possibly 'Goats'? Silver Sloth (talk) 09:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with all of Toast's suggestions for these above. The remaining ones are probably more of the same. I'll take a look when I'm back later when I'll be in the mood for spring-cleaning. 17:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've jumped in feet first and moved the 'conservapedia:' ones. --PsyGremlinWhut? 17:26, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As these turn red we should de-link them... 19:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All these deletions - I feel that TK is being channelled by someone. :( 06:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that most had no content? But at least we're all sysops and can see the deleted content? Or recreate it if we want?  06:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, most had some crap content. But the template one seemed useful. We have a thorough list of templates - it's a special page I think - it's not particularly useful as it doesn't preview them and has all the templates. A short(ish) list of the most useful and most used for reference would be good to have - a copy of the template itself, a brief description, and a nowiki-marked version of its name. In which case RationalWiki:Templates and a mainspace redirect would be quite useful. 08:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Template list is here and I take personal exception[[image:Cry.gif]] to your "not particularly useful" comment Armond[[image:With a whip.gif]]. Kindly suggest impooovements on teh talk page thereof or forever hold your piece[[image:Zoff.gif]]. 04:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

O no...blocked
What a shame - blocked by the woo pushers - you know, those people who redefine skepticism as "pseudoskepticism" just so they can attempt to lay claim to that title. Shot info (talk) 23:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Cp? If so, then go to the talk page of WIGO:CP. 00:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * WikiSynergy. 192.43.227.18 01:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (ce) Nah, not CP - this crowd of pseudoskeptics Shot info (talk) 01:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OOh, they block now do they? Or were you really making an arse of yourself and got it deservingly? 11:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Shot info would appear to be following the person (s)he accuses of being in charge of Wikisynergy around the web. 11:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @Armondikov - well, I was blocked for recommending to skeptical editors from outside WS (say from RW) not to help out improving their woosite until they made some improvements - mainly relating to their odd predilication to maintaing "bios" on skeptical editors on Wikipedia. Alas, I'm not important enough to score an article myself (sighhh).. :-)
 * @Toast - Yep, Purple Scissor is (based on her editing at WS - ie/ she was the first ever) the website owner. Shot info (talk) 23:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, I've seen your records there. Not impressive. 23:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Errr...ok. Of course it's not impressive, I wasn't attempting to help them.  FWIW, I mainly edit Wikipedia...although you can probably say the same thing about my edits there :-)  Shot info (talk) 01:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't/Shouldn't we be having a WIGO for WS/The other woo site they are affiliated to yet? It probably is going downhill soon and it would be nice if we catch them.   16:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What are you doing, admitting we aren't already the pits? 0= Tarantallegra (talk) 00:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL Shot info (talk) 01:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Anybody else from Montreal here? Come drink with me.

 * Cut to Debate:Why are there mass murderers? at 05:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

StumbleUpon is biased
this page needs our help. Especially goaty help. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Silence, foul goatian. The Jerboabites will rule the world. -- 17:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that our artcle on Jerbobas needs MOAR HITLER. Something like: [[Image:Hitler.jpg|thumb|200px|right|In his autobiography Mein Kampf, the Jerboite Adolph Hitler wrote: In regards to how to truly control a country after it has been conquered, one must expunge all references to [[goat]]within the country, and replace them with our worship of the false god, LORD Jerboa.]]

would do niceley. -- 19:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

New debates
"Birth Certificate" and " Montreal " seem both to have earned the right to live on as debates? Signed, Ed "too lazy to do it myself" Poop. 04:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Item the second accomplished by someone who works harder than I. 06:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Talk radio hosts
With these articles popping up about US radio hosts I can't listen to, my I start writing articles on ones Aussies no one else can listen to? 05:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just listen online fool. Ace McWickedModel 500 05:56, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * First of why would I want to? Second are they all available? 05:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * At Ace, yeah. That's what I do, and I live in 'merka. And, yeah most if not all are.  Find station, click "listen on line"...   06:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At Pi, if you aint going to listen even after we told you can then why are you complaining about it? (sorry, I am in a bad mood that has something to do with my current level of sobriety - we'll fix that though...) Ace McWickedModel 500 06:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mostly the US-centric nature of articles that are very borderline mission. I was mostly interested in the edge of this. If they are available online, I can haz link from article? 06:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We usually add at least the host's website. Some offer direct streaming, others require a click or two to get to a radio station with such joy offered.  06:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Anthropic principle
Anyone out there with access to Uni libraries etc able to find Anthropic Bias: Observation Selection Effects in Science and Philosophy (Studies in Philosophy) by Nick Bostrom  ISBN-10: 0415938589  ISBN-13: 978-0415938587 (Amazon). At £60/$88 it's a bit pricey for me otherwise I'd be tempted. 10:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, UNH doesn't seem to have it, sorry. 21:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Gamer tags
After we all started posting our Xbox screen names, I thought it would be a good idea to add a page which people can list all of their online gaming names to, so we can try and organise some matches :) Let me know what you think: (page here) 10:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like an ok idea. I would love for some actual backup playing "The Ward of Despair" on the PlayStation Network (granted, I should probably invest in a keyboard to boss people around). BTW Onizuka100 in the PSN. I'm not on Xbox live or on Wii(sucks).--Tabris (talk) 01:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Brave New World
Blade Runner was on TV last night I got to thinking about Ridley Scott's better flicks, like Blade Runner and Alien. Then I see this morning he is making one of my favourite books,Brave New World, into a movie. awesome. Ace McWickedModel 500 21:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's really exciting, and they got the right man for it. Blade Runner is possibly my favorite movie. While we're in the dystopian vein, I think it's time for another 1984 movie. I'd like to see how it would look with the film technology that has evolved since the previous one came out.--PitchBlackMind (talk) 21:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder whom they will get to play the Epsilon-Minus Semi-Morons. 21:45, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont know, I think the previous 1984 got it just right and because of the low-tech filming it really got across the gritty reality of Airstrip One. But yeah, when Ridley Scott puts his mind to it, he does it well (lets forget Gladiator ever happened...). I love both Brave New World and 1984 and to put the final touches on classic dystopia I purchased Fahrenheit 451 yesterday. Ace McWickedModel 500 21:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't think that Brave New World is going to make a good feature film. Possibly a good straight to video, channel five soft porn film. Plus there's the whole totally dated vision of the future thing to contend with. I have a horrible feeling they'll jazz it up with hover cars rather than helicopters, and perhaps some laser gun fights. There probably won't even be any pneumatic hotties having uninhibited sex. -- 21:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never liked the actors they picked for purely physical reasons. Julia and Winston don't look much like I pictured them in the book, that's always a pet peeve of mine when they transfer between the mediums. Did you buy the new graphic novel version of Fahrenheit 451? I meant to pick that up this week, I think it just came out.-- 22:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont know, when Ridley Scott puts his mind to it.......Speaking of dystopia/Orwellian things I purchased a 1st illistrated edition copy of Animal Farm. Worth about a grand but I got it cheap. Ace McWickedModel 500 22:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, oh. Actually, thinking about it, I want to play the epsilon who operates the elevator. That's a role perfectly made for me. "Roof! Oooooh, roof!" Of course, they'll probably crush my dreams by not including that in the screenplay. It's difficult to imagine a future where people are employed to push the buttons in the lift for you. -- 22:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I found Farenheit 451 to be a decent read, but it blatantly shoved the moral of the story right into your face throughout the whole thing, and it did tend to be a bit on the predictable side. Mind you, the last time I'd read it I had just finished A Canticle for Leibowitz, which dealt with similar themes much more thoroughly, so the difference was a bit on the stark side. --Kels (talk) 05:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmmmmmmm urgh cough gggrrrrrrrr huu
uuuuuurgh, hmmmmmm, pfffffffffffft, ewwwwww urgh, mmmmmmmmmmm, humppppppppph, gaaaaaaaa, mmm. 08:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)08:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC) Ace McWickedModel 500 08:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC) uhhhhhhhhhhhhh umph brrrrrrrrrrrrrr blllllllleh mmmmmmmmmmmmm br Ace McWickedModel 500 08:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC) mutter mutter gibbeerish bibberish jabber grumble gurmppppppppppp grr mmm humppppfager all work and no play makes ace a dull boy Ace McWickedModel 500 08:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ace, are you about to go all axe-weilding-homocidal-maniac on us? If so then can I tape it? 09:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, at least we'd make 200 quid. 09:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Health Care
Just wanted to let you guys know this, because I just started barking at my computer. A facebook friend on mine (I haven't talked to the bitch face to face since high school) posted this incredibly stupid status update:

"'New Health care law that is trying to be passed states the folowing: Pg 30 sec 123, 'THERE WILL be a committee that decides what TX/Benefis you get.' Pg 427 'Govt. mandates program for orders for end of life' Yes the government will then have a say in how your life ends! Have these people read the Hippocratic Oath? How about the Constitution? When did the government decide that they should take after hitler? Vote NO!'"

I looked over the text of the health care bill. This is my response. I know that this will not do any good with her, but I will go ahead and post it here... Maybe someone with a brain stem will be able to actually contribute:

"'Ok, now that I have a chance to look this over. I will start with the examples you posted. 1, Pg 30, sec 123 concerns the establishment of a board of advisors, consisting of medical personal to recommend what benefits are included in the plan and to establish three levels of care, essential, enhanced and premium plans.  Note that nowhere is this committee given any real power.  They can only recommend.  Also note that EVERY insurance company in the world has a similar board to make the same recommendations.  Pg 427 deals with 'life sustaining care.'  The document explicitly states that any programs need to be standard throughout the country and that any doctor can order life sustaining treatment.  If you continue to page 428, you would read that the bill also mandates training for ALL health care professionals, not just doctors.  You may also want to check those direct quotes, as neither appears in the document at all.'"

Thank you all for listening. 09:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As I've probably mentioned before, Facebook is a great source for this kind of stupidity. It's rather sad that such real people that you know can fall for utter crap, rather than just some faceless blogger. But you should post that response, even if it doesn't work on her directly, then anyone reading it will be able to see the sense. 10:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The amazing thing is, if you did post that publicly on friendface in response then you'd be the asshole. Not the idiots who forward on this crap without checking if it's actually genuine or (dis)advantageous. 13:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Points for the Friendface reference. I got a proper CAPSLOCK shouting at for debunking the urban legend that I posted up here a while back. 14:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We had a bunch of astroturfers shout down reps at our town hall yesterday and start fighting with the police. Isn't it a general rule of common courtesy that you let somebody talk when they are trying to explain something, even if you disagree? Jesus... ENorman (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah--but let's not for a minute think this type of behaviour is limited to the right. I've been at many events where feminists/gay-rights activists/anti-war activists/what-have-you have done the exact same thing. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And shame on them too. Plus, most of the shouters were from Glenn Beck's 9/12 project and the supporters from pro-reform lobby groups. I seriously doubt there was a single person who wasn't associated with anything there. ENorman (talk) 15:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... I think these people are ridiculous and all, but their problem should be solved by rational discourse (not the yelling they seem to be only capable of). As far as teh gays, I think they've all but exhausted rational discourse and it really does make me want to throw a brick through some government building's window. But, I suppose that's how the right wingers feel, too. &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Rational discourse? We'd love that in the ideal world, but there is the phrase "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" which is very apt here, I think. Therefore, if you have someone pushing an idea due to paranoia (as in Chuck's example above as well as the numerous FB posts I've come across from urban legends to bollocks about people wanting to steal pictures of your children) then you can make them just backtrack on their words by pointing out the obvious or the factual - and the shouty shouty responses to such things suggests that they're just going to interpret that as a direct attack on them. Whether you can change people's minds by playing to the same fears and emotions that got them to that opinion I'm not sure of. It'd be interesting thing to test. Say, try changing someone's opinion of an urban legend by positing your own which turns the situation on its head. There's similar parallels with the vaccine hysteria - people who think MMR caused autism because of some tear-jerking anecdotes weren't swayed back by data and research that said otherwise, but one tactic to convince them was to play to an emotional response by showing the results of not vaccinating a child and having them die horrible deaths from measles and mumps. 16:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Update: So I posted that yesterday and went to sleep. This morning I wake up and see this response from one of her other friends "Yeah, why is "get" in quotes. I don't think that term is ever used in any official document. I'm glad someone actually looked it over. Everyone else just believes what they're spoon fed."  I almost cried in pure joy.... I think I may have reached one person.  17:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Chuck FTW!

Is Palin contagious?
What the fuck is up with Senator Martinez? DickTurpis (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Forty goats?
I'd easily offer fifty goats and a few cows to have her as my wife--with the added bonus of two smart and compelling in-laws. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * He better back off... I'm going after Chelsea 17:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * He's in Kenya...WHY DID OBAMA PUT HIM UP TO THIS?!?!!?/!?!!1!!?one!??? --Gulik (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The evidence suggests that this is a subversive Obama plot to merge the US with the African continent. This would make all Kenyans citizens of the United States and thus legitimize Barack Obama's presidency.-- 19:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

My sig
As some/most of you have probably noticed, I've been mucking with my sig today, going through several different images. While I like the current version "on it's own", on talk pages, especially if several are visible (whodathunkit?), it tends towards looking like giant bricks of purple, and dominates the visual aspect of the page.

So let's have a vote. Feel free to add options. 05:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ace that the new signature is awful. 05:17, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am gonna click all arrows. Make human go back to how it was before, he shouldn't edit talk pages and who is he anyway? Ace McWickedModel 500 05:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fascinating topic. No, really. --127․0․0․1 (talk) 09:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So far Goat's got the upper hand. 10:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is SO difficult. Vote "Goat" in true anarchist RW style; be silly and ask who is human; vote joke by asking him to stop editing talk pages (as if!); and where is the "I don't care" option?--BobNot Jim 19:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Vote
Make human go back to the silly crossed "h" and random talk page link before we all freak out Make human stop editing talk pages Who's "human"? Goat Whoever "human" is, I like the drippy version Ace made him adopt. I just like this cool voting thing Did Bohdan add the "make Human stop editing talk pages" one? -- 15:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but I was surely channeling his ghoast when I wrote it... 22:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that many users cared. Although I think if you get a new IP you can vote again and undoubtedly some of us edit from offices with about 20 or so... 13:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't think about that until you mentioned it. But I don't really want to get a new IP address cause I might jeopardize my block evasion techniques. 02:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I just want to say those new voting thingies are teh awesome! --PsyGremlinArnold J Rimmer lookalike winner 1998 09:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Kenyan Birth Certificate! Get Yer Kenyan Birth Certificate Here!
Go here. Have fun. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 22:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)




 * Nice, but clearly a fake. I have never lived in Massachusetts ;)  23:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What? A fake Kenyan birth certificate?  And here I thought only Hawaii made fake birth certificates!The Goonie 1 (talk) 23:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The birthers seem to have a lot in common with tax protesters. How long before the two groups merge and people start refusing to pay their tax because Obama has not proven himself to legitimately be president and therefore can not tax people? 00:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems to me to be the same goddamn people: just the same Rape-ublican sheep doing the bidding of the conservative movement. It wouldn't surprise me if the afformentioned hypothetical has already happened.The Goonie 1 (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not? There's that one dude who says he won't go to Iraq/Afghanistan (I forget which...) 'cause he doesn't want to follow the orders of someone who isn't legally the C-in-C. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 00:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Stefan Cook is his name. I am quite certain that he would have received more support in his position from the anti-war people if he had done this under Bush with the claim that Bush was not president because he stole the 2000 election. 03:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a section on him at birthers. He's not anti-war, he's anti-Obama.  03:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Those anti-war people are not very picky that way... 04:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * People who say Bush stole the election annoy me. The Supreme Court ruled in his favour based on the law in Florida at the time. If you are unhappy with the law, we have elections to change the law makers. 04:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree on that; the entire flap about the election after the Supreme Court ruling seemed to be from sore losers. 04:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm anti-war, and I think that guy and his lawyer are both idiots. And Bush v. Gore was a constitutional embarassment, it's not the way these things should be decided.  Look how MN spent six months counting votes to finally get a senator.  That's the way to do it. SCOTUS does not use or apply state law, it only works at the federal level.  04:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't the federal law that the states legislate on their elections to the electoral college? 04:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The federal law is that the states decide how to appoint their electors, yes. The SCOTUS interfered with FL's process by which they would have certified Bush as the winner of their state's slate. SCOTUS only covers state laws when they conflict with federal/constitutional law.  04:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * SCOTUS said that the decision made by the Florida Supreme Court violated the 14th Amendment. Bush won by as result of that decision, not by being declared the winner by the court, there is a big difference. 04:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They also violated the concept of stare decisis by explicitly stating that the case could not be used as a precedent in any other case. And to say the SCOTUS did not "declare Bush the winner" is to ignore exactly what they did. 04:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I suspect that the reason they don't want it used as a precedent is as you stated above they shouldn't be sorting out elections except in extreme cases which this became. Bush winning was the natural cause of the ruling, not the ruling itself. 04:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason they didn't want it used as precedent was it was incompetent judicial review. They shouldn't have been involved, there was no "constitutional crisis", and it wasn't an extreme case.  05:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

This made me laf. 23:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hitler is very upset about this. --Gulik (talk) 19:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Nerdgasm
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/23940/ 5 futuristic interfaces. I'm particularly impressed with the scratch input and the ultrasound. 12:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome! Thanks for sharing. I also was impressed with the scratch input, looks like an extremely cheap device. That video restored my faith in inventors. 22:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Exercise
Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know if anyone has any recommendation on some sort of home exercise program I can do. There's no way I'm going to have time to go to the gym at school this year, and the $220 can really be spent on better things anyhow. So if I'm going to exercise, I'd better do it at home. Anyone have anything that they can point me at that's free or at least cheap, low impact and doesn't require a lot of special equipment? I'm looking at maybe three or four 1/2 hour sessions a week, but I'm flexible about it. --Kels (talk) 05:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 30 to 45 minutes of brisk walking every day is always good. 05:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Winter will be coming on during the school period, not a sustainable option. During the summer, I don't get on with the sun very well at all, so I dunno if that's a great option. --Kels (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I go to the local enclosed shopping mall for brisk walking when winter hits, which is fine, except when an extremely bad blizzard comes and they close the mall. 19:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I was going to recommend swimming in a nice pool, but then I saw your budget. Second the brisk walks.  07:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Step aerobics (up and down a single seven inch step) for half an hour if it's inclement outdoors. Use plenty of upper body movement. Has the advantage that you can watch telly while you do it. 07:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * One disadvantage there is I have patella-femoral syndrome, apparently as a result of being so tall. So I'm not sure if that would aggravate it or not. I know things like squats and running aren't recommended. --Kels (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I eat chips while doing it too? I loves me some chips. 08:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Assuming that you mean crisps; then: no! 1) they're the most expensive way of buying potatoes b) they're full of naughty calories γ) they're bad for the heart. 08:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And what if I meant chips? 20:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If at all possible cycle to work. The advantages are
 * (a) you save a fortune - I've even ditched one of the two family cars.
 * (b) you have to do it every day so there's no slacking
 * (c) it's a good form of exercise - much less stress on the body than, for example, jogging and
 * (d) you get a wonderful warm glow from being good to the planet.
 * On the downside your life expectancy drops like a stone because it will be less than six months before some motorist who is busy texting whilst driving over the speed limit will mow you down with the usual 'sorry, didn't see you'. Bob Soles (talk) 08:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Great idea, and this city actually has copious bike lanes. Three disadvantages that I can see, though.  First, winter will intervene before long and I want something that'll hold me through the school year.  Second, school is literally all the way across town and takes over a half hour by car (more than an hour by bus), so it's rather a longer trip than I'd want.  Third, and most important, I don't own a bicycle. --Kels (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In most cities walking is almost faster than motorized transport, but, yeah, there's winter. You could probably get a used bike cheap if you look around, though.  20:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a young lady at my uni who spends her lunch time jogging up and down the fire escape of our building. It is strange that I always decide to take the stairs when I go out to get my lunch. 08:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You can try this. Good motivation for exercise. 11:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you do part-time or voluntary work that helps with aerobic fitness or flexibility? For example, I shelve books at the local library and I can work up a sweat while also bending & twisting. I usually feel pretty loose afterwards. I guess after-hours supermarket shelving would have the same effect? Also agree that walking or cycling has great aerobic benefit. RagTop Gone sailing 12:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, anything that involves squatting a good deal doesn't work for me. I have a lot of problem with that action, even when I was going to the gym regularly last year.  Probably connected to the patella-femoral issue I mentioned above, but in any case that's why I'm not working as a PSW any more.  Squatting and kneeling were a good part of the job. --Kels (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Kels, you sound in a worse way than me. Dodgy legs and sun sensitive and tall! Suggested exercise: opening pizza boxes, using mouse & working tv remote. (get a Wii? - they're always on about it on t'telly over here) 14:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking of investing in a used elliptical machine (I see there's a couple on UsedOttawa for about CDN$60) and doing that plus crunches and some other stuff. What I really should get too is get some sort of ankle weights and so leg exercises to strengthen the muscles on either side of the knee. Hmm...this is beginning to sound almost like...a plan! --Kels (talk) 15:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is going to sound strange...but if you really want your ankles stronger, glue a round object (say about the size of a small tin of Carmex) to the toe of your shoes. Put your weight on one at a time without balancing on anything and slowly roll your ankle around until your calves burn. I broke both of my ankles and tore up a knee playing basketball when I was in high school, and that helped a lot in getting my knees and ankles strong again. I wish I could demonstrate, my description doesn't sound like it made sense. -- 16:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's actually not my ankles I want stronger, it's the muscles that support the knee. My ankles are fine.  My doctor recommended an exercise whereby I weight my ankle, cross my legs and lift the leg to a straight position.  If I can dig up some cheap ankle weights, that'll probably do the trick. --Kels (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

A few thoughts: See if your local YM/YWCA doesn't have some sort of sliding scale payment option to account for your low income. YWCAs from what I've seen tend to be especially progressive on these sorts of questions. I think the clear advantage to going somewhere to exercise over relying on your own machines is that if you can succeed in getting your ass to the gym, you'll work out. Nothing els to do there. Ironocally, I've had more success in keeping up a regular fitness routine (six times a week, 1.5-2 hrs a time) when I have to get out of the house to exercise. Also, seeing as you seem to have a number of physical issues, you should prolly talk to some sort of professional and not a bunch of wiki-folk about starting an exercise plan. Also--tall girls rule. Love them. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * TOP! I thought you and I had something going, at <155cm (about 5'1") you obviously don't lurve me! Goodbye cruel world ... 15:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry Toast, but that's the Hard Truth. I don't have that bad physical issues to be honest.  Essentially it's extremely fair skin so therefore sun sensitive, bad knees, a minor case of plantar fasciitis, and a bit of reflux which is irrelevant to this discussion.  Otherwise, not so bad except I could stand to be more fit.  I think I'll go the home route though, given the sort of schedule I'm dealing with at the moment.  Problem with Ottawa is everything is so spread out, it eats up a lot through travel time alone. --Kels (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to build muscle, I have a workout plan that does a fairly good job, and can be started even by those who can't do much exercise. Even better, it can be done anywhere you can lay flat. Outside cafeterias, in your room, at the gym, etc.

1:) Push ups: First, you want to know your max amount of push-ups. make sure you go down all the way [where your shoulders and elbows are parralel]. Count how many you do wither within two minutes, or until you can't anymore. Take this number, and half it. Write it down. 2:) Next, do sit-ups. If you can, place you feet where they are held down, like under a bed or table. If not, then you can do them without an anchor. Make sure the base of the neck is parralel with the base of the spine, and that your shoulderblades touch when you go down. Count how many you do here, and half it. Now you have your targets. 3:) Start with pushups. Do your target amount, then rest for one minute. Repeat twice, doing three sets of push-ups. After your third set of push ups, do the same with sit-ups. Do this every Other day, to give the muscle in your arms and abs time to recover. I alternate with a cardio event [bike, swim, run, etc.] so that you aren't losing lung capacity or muscle mass.

It helped me with my PT test, and depending on your limit, doesn't last long at all to do. My plan has a few other exercises in it, but the above should be a good start. Also, try to increase the number you do, by one or two, every week to ensure you build muscle. -- CodyH (talk) 18:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To help with your joint health, flexibility, toning, and building control muscles you could have a look at Light on Yoga by BKS Iyengar - it's a self-contained yoga course - basically the end all be all magnum opus of them. Available in paperback. The health benefits of yoga are well-known and substantial. 23:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The yoga one sounds about my speed, I've always had lousy flexibility but good balance. I'm more interested in simply keeping fit, maybe shedding a little weight, but muscle really isn't a priority.  So I'm thinking of picking up a used elliptical machine, and that would be a nice addition. --Kels (talk) 04:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I took a look at some of the reviews for Light on Yoga, and a lot of them don't recommend it for a beginner for various reasons. If this is the case, can you recommend something a bit more accessible? --Kels (talk) 05:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Binaural beats
Are these really capable of playing with your brain? Discuss. I expect an answer after my vacation! Sterile 12:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (samples examples) Totnesmartin (talk) 11:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to fucking kill somebody
Maybe me. More likely the asshole who invented these pieces of shit. Makes a great line. Fantastic for fast sketching and gestures. Break every fucking time you try to sharpen them. I've just gone through THREE FUCKING QUARTERS of one, just trying to sharpen the bastard once!. How the hell am I supposed to work with this? --Kels (talk) 15:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you drop them? I ruined a whole box of Prismacolours that way. Did not know that would shatter the leads inside the wood. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you never know what may have happened before you bought them so they could have been banged around at any stage of transportation. Apparently if you microwave or over-cook them you can possibly mend any internal fractures. I've never tried it personally, but I might give it a go at some point. 17:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They weren't dropped, far as I know, but ebony pencils have very soft leads. So if the sharpener catches the lead at all, the drag will cause it to turn and break inside the barrel of the pencil.  Frustrating, especially when you're first getting started for the day. --Kels (talk) 18:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Try sharpening them with a pen-knife? --Gulik (talk) 18:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The only ;encils I use are 4h, and they are indestructible. -- 20:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As per Gulik, I'd suggest another sharpening mode. How about medium grit sandpaper or a file?  Are you using a "blade" type sharpener or one of those fancy triple cutting wheel things?  I have a friend who uses those pencil sharpener guts things to decorate his pottery... http://www.jeffbrownpottery.com/ wow, I remember helping him make that background image...  20:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Just a quick research question: American ISPs and static IPs
Okay, the whole "If you have a static IP..." business pops up every now and then, but... which ISPs actually give out static IPs to private users? Is it common to have one? I hardly need a complete list or anything, but one or two insights/anecdotes by some of our American users would be helpful... :) Disclaimer: This isn't related to socking, wikis, evolution, creationism, or anything like that. I just ask here because we occasionally discuss things like this anyway. --Sid (talk) 20:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there's static and then there's static. With Comcast (cable broadband), I think I'm on my second IP since I was "keeping track".  It's probably just easy and convenient for them.  But it's not a "permanent" IP - it just doesn't change often, barely at all.  I can't count on it staying the same at any given time.  Example: Trent pays an extry $15 or so per month so his cable IP ''will' be truly static, so he can serve up all this codswallop.  A friend used to serve his website from his house, and comcast revenged by changing his IP.


 * So that's what people usually mean by "static IP" - it's usually the same. 21:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Depending on what you want to do, you can get a long way with a service such as www.dyndns.org - plenty of home routers support it. It allows you to register a domain name which will then always resolve to your router, even if your IP address changes randomly. alt (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Paying extra for real static IPs is bullshit brought on by there being essentially no competition in the US broadband market. In the UK, my ISP simply hands out as many IPv4 addresses as you need, registered and owned by you to use as you like, along with enough IPv6 addresses to address pretty much every molecule in your body should you so desire. I've got 16 addresses routed to me, which I really need to expand to 32 but that would involve the tedious task of renumbering my network. Of course, we still have the problem that BT has a virtual monopoly on the infrastructure. So barring organising a local co-op to install fibre to the home in my neighbourhood, I won't get faster than ~12 Mbps for years. -- 14:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the fast replies, guys, you helped a lot! :) Some interesting tidbits there I hadn't even considered! --Sid (talk) 17:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ow, my aching brain
I just found out a local radio station is playing Michael Savage. He's like every horrible stereotype I have about Conservatives rolled together and covered in crispy bacon. If Conservapedia had a tongue, it would be Michael Savage. --Gulik (talk) 23:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Turn it off and salvage your radio before you launch it against a wall. That man is easily the most vile of all the talk radio goons.-- 23:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If anyone out there actually THINKS the way Savage talks, I'm amazed at how LITTLE violence we've had from the hate-wingers so far. It's just so depressing that this dingbat is getting rich and famous like this. --Gulik (talk) 23:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Beautiful day
7:00, the sun is out, the sky is blue, there's not a cloud to spoil the view but I've got to wait indoors for the electrician to come & mend my water 'otter. 05:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Get a gas on-demand water-otter like I did last year. There is no love like the love a lady can have for major appliances.  I 'll send you major appliance porn if you like, I take pix while installing...   06:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is new water 'otter - is gas on demand (I think - the terminology's different Called: Condensing Combination boiler here) Cost small fortune but it does away with hot water tank - great lump of copper which offset cost slightly. Takes considerably less room in kitchen. 06:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It is raining cats and dogs here. I like dark and stormy nights. 06:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, it's a pretty bad thunderstorm here in Minneapolis, too. It's funny, my power is out but my internet is up.  So my laptop is the only entertainment right now.  By the by, which part of MN are you from, ListenerX?The Goonie 1 (talk) 06:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We had "one week" of summer here, finally. Although Friday was a bit windy, cloudy, and cool (70's at best F).  I'm on you MN freaks radio, I heard nothing about power outs!  I feel so left out...  06:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) Also from Minneapolis. 06:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I loves me some 55440... 06:23, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice!!! I was at Irishfest at Harriet Island earlier today, and it was bad looking then at the Dropkick Murphy's show, but it didn't actually start storming until I got home. Talk about luck.The Goonie 1 (talk) 06:26, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, the 'trician's arrived. A bit of a linuxite! Supervisor getting some overtime in to fund a Florida trip with the kids - so I've got Disney to thank for a Saturday job! I suppose My power'll be off in a while. 08:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's great down here in the South Easy too... but I've got to go to work from 12-10 today!!!! ANGRY FACE! 09:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's nice. I'm outside lying around with the kitties. Of course, kitty #2 celebrated this morning by vomiting on the bed. -- 13:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Rainy and 17 degrees. Not so beautiful. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 14:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Temps finally about 0 in the mornings and mid-20's by noon, with eggshell blue skies. Spring, methinks be on its way. --PsyGremlinWhut? 14:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Where do you lot live, the Arctic Circle? Must learn to recognize when temperatures are given in degrees Celsius... 15:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it help if we included in our sig if we're from a crazy arse backward country that hasn't cottoned on to SI and metric units yet? -- 15:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's 95 today here and the heat index is probably something like 105. Really awesome to break a sweat on the 15 foot walk from my door to my car. I hate summer.-- 15:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) Personally, I prefer degrees Fahrenheit; there is less granularity and the 0 and 100 are at more useful points. But tell me this: If the metric system is so good, whyever was it not fully embraced, complete with the ten-day week and the ten-hour day? 15:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, because the units we measure these physical quantities in are arbitrary and may as well be arranged to our maximum convenience. How we reckon our calendar is based on the earth-moon system and earth-sun system which, barring giant rocket engines, aren't arranged to our convenience. -- 16:26, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Weeks and hours are not based on any lunisolar measurements. 16:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you even think for a second before committing your thoughts to the internet? Since changing the definition of a second is more or less impossible with any ease, what you're proposing would leave you with "minutes" of 86.4 seconds each. If you think marking time using fractions of a second would be convenient, then please go ahead. I'd love to watch. -- 16:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And what "useful points" are marked out by 0 and 100 in the Fahrenheit scale? For that matter, what's so special about, what is it, 32 and 212? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) Jeeves, are you aware that both ten-day weeks and ten-hour days were originally part of the metric system? 16:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * TOP, the temperature range between 50 and 100 degrees Celsius very rarely comes up when speaking of everyday topics. Cooking is done at higher temperatures, while meteorology generally deals with lower temperatures. 16:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and they had to have five (or six) leap days a year to avoid significant calendar drift. Pity the poor software engineer who would have had to deal with that shit in the modern era. I don't get your point. Yes, if we shortened the duration of the second, we could have decimal time, but that's entirely impractical. We'd have to discard more or less every science text, and every computer controlled device. -- 17:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not mention the modern era. I was asking why the ten-day week and the ten-hour day were not retained after being adopted in revolutionary France. (Incidentally, there is a modern incarnation of decimal time, the beat, although implementing it would, as you say, be quite a bother.) 20:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

UNDENT. "the temperature range between 50 and 100 degrees Celsius very rarely comes up when speaking of everyday topics." As does the Fahrenheit range of, what, 120-212, and then a big skip until I pre-heat the oven to 325. 0=water freezes. 100=water boils. Since whatever scale we use to measure temperature is gonna be arbitrary anyway, at least this one is tied to something in the natural world. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Hehe, this is a funny convo. F degrees are/were set to physical things - 100 was supposed to be human body temperature (Dr. F had a light fever that day), and zero, strangely, was some silly solution's freezing point (shoulda been same as 0 C I think). And if we do ten hours/day and 100 min/h, 100 s/m, the second is almost exactly the same (about 0.9 old seconds, as I recall). And all the computer controlled stuff doesn't use "seconds" anyway, they use much shorter intervals, like quartz crystal things, and just "divide by" until they get what they need. All I know is I have to keep two complete sets of tools to work on my old Audi and my old Chevy. It's about 2/3 of the way from freezing to body temp out today, nice, but a bit cool for the season... 17:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and food... has to be heated to 140 to kill bacteria, 180 to be really safe. Car engine coolant runs at about 180. 17:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You'd be surprised how often the oscillator exposed at a level that is programmable in any given computing device is 1Hz, it's about 90% of the time. In any case, the "decimal second" would be a messy 0.864 SI seconds, which means that the most clocks wouldn't be able to keep sensible time without significant rejigging every n decimal seconds. -- 18:39, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * TOP, my point was that the infrequently used temperatures are outside the 0-100 range on the Fahrenheit scale.
 * Human, the Fahrenheit zero was obtained from a mixture of ice, water and ammonium chloride that would automatically stabilize its temperature at zero degrees. 20:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

A short story
I was out with an old friend who manages a cinema last night. Here's a summary of a little back and forth he shared with a customer the other day...

Manager: Sorry sir, the show's been cancelled, but here's your money back. Customer: Why? Manager: Well, I'm afraid a man actually had a heart attack in the screen and he's in a critical condition in hospital at the moment. Customer: So? Is he dead yet? Manager: I don't really think that's funny, because he could die. Customer: So? I work in a funeral parlour, more money for me. Manager: Ok, here's youre fucking money back, now get the fuck out of my cinema. Customer: I want your head office details to report you! Manager: I'm not giving you shit, you want my head office, call 118 118. (walks off).

End scene. 09:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Bush crazier than originally thought, film at 11.
This is scary if true. That is all. -- 14:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Methinks these people are unable to understand a little thing called allegory... 15:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * After getting booted out he did basically come out as not a YEC, so he's probably sane. 15:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Institutional momentum
So there is a set of train tracks that run right out back of by house. I think they used to be for a commuter rail that stopped service before I came out here. Since I have been up here the tracks are over grown with weeds and buried my sand. They have been mostly a more interesting alleyway for pedestrians to cut through. The bus stop I get off at is less than half a block over the tracks, the bus has always had to stop at the tracks, look both way, then cross again and make my stop. It was annoying, and I rather thought silly because there had been no train on those tracks for years, but I just accepted it.

Then about a month ago they brought in these big machines that made quick work of the tracks. Ripped them out of the ground, piled them on trucks and off they went. Now there is a nice trail where once was rotting rail road ties. The only place they did not remove the tracks were where they cut across the road. I assume this is because they didn't want to have to rip up the roads to get them out. So now there is a set of train tracks cutting across the road that are not even connected to anything on either side.

The bus still is required to stop and look both ways before crossing. tmtoulouse 17:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it initially because they didn't realise the tracks were disused? I know of similar things where people just simply don't realise the obvious so just keep gonig with the status quo, even when it stops making sense just because it's easier that way. 17:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've seen tracks around here where the "RR" sign says "Exempt" underneath it, which I think might mean "don't bother stopping" while still warning of the bumps. And, yeah, they probably don't want to rip up the road, maybe they'll pull the tracks the next time they resurface it?  Funny story, though.  Oh yeah, also, the RR track pulling people probably don't have road repair gear, just the magic track ripper.  18:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How do yer know there be a ship crossing instead of a train? A: The sign says ARR ARR instead of RR. ☠ (talk) 01:31, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What the fuck with the alien fonts? You may have said something smart, but I can't tell... 05:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

God fucking damn!
These christing anti-biotics are burning my inside. Arrrrgrh fuck it hurts. I need some beer to out out the fire. Argh! Ace McWickedModel 500 01:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Arrgh have some run ye matey, it'll cure anything ☠ (talk) 01:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Beer too weak, Scotch will kill the antibiotics. And your liver.   Race to the end.  05:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

PZ & the Cretin Museum
He's going round with 250+ people as I type Twitter 15:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I went once. It was fucking overwhelming. My favorite part was following around believers and eavesdropping on their very erudite conversations. When are they going? I could leave work now... &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They're there now, All 289 of 'em. 16:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, Zeus, it's tempting... &mdash; Signed, by: Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 16:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The utter lameness that is Twitter never ceases to amaze me. Let's hope PZ writes something intelligent and literate about this in his blog. DickTurpis (talk) 16:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Can't argue with that, Dick. 16:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, Twitter is exceptionally over-rated but I can't help but think that it does come into its own for things like this. Of course, only for things like this, day-to-day twatting is the most annoying thing I've ever seen (I had to hide the twitterererers from my Friendface feed because the inanity was slowly killing me). This looks like it may throw up something interesting once every 100 posts or so. 17:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

PZ has some tweets. It doesn't sound like any fireworks happened, though. Corry (talk) 17:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Eve is very hot in a dark haired Nordic way" Legend. 19:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha! You have to laugh at the irony. PZ's update about expelled from the creation museum. It sounds very similar to being blocked on CP. --PsyWhut? 14:58, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

1434
Just finished reading this - interesting theory and worth looking into in more depth (although the book itself isn't especially well written and has the annoying habit of referring to his website all the time). Wonder what Andy would make of the fact that Columbus had access to maps showing America, as well as tables which allowed him to calculate latitude & longitude (thus making his "miraculous" return to Hispaniola a bit of a joke). Certainly pokes a number of holes in Eurocentric history. --PsyGremlinArnold J Rimmer lookalike winner 1998 10:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is quite an old theory based largely on the Piris Rei map (amongst others). 17:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds a bit psychoceramic to me, especially as Columbus was aiming for India, not the "New World". --Gulik (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, but there lies the rub - maps of the time indicate 'India', 'India Superior' and 'India merdionas' - the latter two both located where modern day China is. --PsyGremlinWhut? 10:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not wishing to actively support the theory but if you were drumming up money for a voyage would you ask for funds to visit a familiar place with the possibility of known trade or to find somewhere that no-one knew of, which plan do you think would stand the best chance of acceptance? 12:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit Conflicts Made Easier?
Would it be possible to arrange things so that when one gets an EC, they could. by clicking on one button somewhere, end up back on the newly-refreshed screen of the one section they want to edit to paste in their new edit as opposed to having to take a few steps to get there--or saving a few steps but having to deal with the whole article and not just the desired section? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it should be extremely easy to do a three way merge like any good version control system would do, using diff3. Then the edit conflict screen would present the merged text, and typically all you'd need to do is add a colon to indent your comment a little further and hit submit. Lazy arse mediawiki developers. -- 16:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I want a big, shiny red button that says "Try Again." TheoryOfPractice (talk) 16:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How about a button that says "Destroy that previous edit and let me RULE!" see 17:18; 17:19 on talkWIGOCP TOP. 17:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I want a button that stomps over the edit that conflicted you, and redirects the user to Time Cube. Not that I get annoyed by edit conflicts. No, not at all. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if it just refreshed in the subsection rather than the entire article (particularly on long talk pages like the saloon bar) that would be an improvement. I always wondered why that wasn't so, but you can't quite predict how big the edit conflict is. What if you conflicted with someone who blanked the page, or added a new section, it might cause some headaches for the code to get around or something. 17:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, other wiki software (like WikiDot) gives you a "lock" on an article to prevent conflicts. I assume Media Wiki must have a version of this feature - but knowing the RW userbase you'd all just ignore the lock warnings and force steal the edit. You bunch of basterds! :p 17:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

It ought to be easy, since one click back, you were editing the section. EC: 1. copy your text from bottom box. 2. Hit "back". 3. Hit "reload" 4. Paste and save. Ought to work, unless Pibot archived a section above or someone added a section above in the interim. 18:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If Pibot archives a section it usual tell you the one you are editing doesn't exist, as all the sections are renumbered. Embarrassingly enough this has happened to me at least three times. 11:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Length of threads
Isn't it strange what can trigger long threads and what sinks without trace? 16:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's strange, I think it all depends on how people end up commenting on it. Some threads that look promising end up getting four replies. Others don't seem that interesting on the surface spark a debate that ends up with 40 posts. It's usually due to someone making a comment that people take issue with. Like the beautiful day posting above. It started out as describing the weather in your area, and is now morphing into a debate on the merits of the metric system.-- 17:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Awwww, PBM - you stopped this from being a "sinks without trace". 17:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There's so many posts that I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on, I have to comment in the spots where I actually have something to say! Besides, it didn't seem right to let a post about sinking threads languish without a reply.-- 17:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I fully expect Larron to come up with a chart on the length of threads in the Saloon Bar. -- 18:15, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My story about the back and forth between manager and customer died on it's arse. Shame. 20:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmm. I noticed that. Just couldn't think of anything to say about it really. 05:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with that one was that it was a little gem all by itself. No comment was necessary. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I know... half the stuff I write here I expect someone to come along and say "What's your point?" 12:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What's your point? 12:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To draw attention to the worthlessness of most of the things I say/do online/in reality. 13:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Use of blacklist
There exist a sad little man, that despite it having been about 10 months now, comes to make an ass of himself at our wiki as he has no life. He has a few favourite phrases based on his insecurities. One is the word "whore". I can black list the word so he can't create and edit page with that name. However we have a few fun space article such as Fun:Media Whore, Fun:Media Whore and Fun:Corporate whore, which in order to allow other people to edit I have to white list. I really don't like having to compose lists of expectable uses of the word whore, because; a) it feels like censorship, b) I don't particularly like using the word. What is the best way forward? 01:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't bother. He'll just move on from "whore" to "jism," "clit," "labia," "dildo," "spunk," "blowjob," etc. etc. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 01:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you really want to give me ideas? Fall down
 * Don't stick beans up your nose, Fall down. That is true but a few choice words will curb 90% of his vocabulary. 01:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please no blacklist. It doesn't help - look at the username blacklist on CP if you're not convinced. Oh, and FallDown, have you ever tried sticking beans up your nose?  Only Mommies and Daddies are allowed to do it, bad child!  01:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The blacklist at CP was complied by people who don't know netspeak or regex. If we had one it would actually work. I have decided just to protect the pages. Simple rule, after you have deleted a page of offensive vandalism protect it against creation.  01:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh, Pi, "you have decided to"? Please, no.  No.  No protecting, no blocking, no blacklist.  05:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah - no protecting, no blacklist. We're perfecly capable of reverting these wazzocks without any such draconian measures. 05:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree with toast. He'll get bored and sod off in a bit, and "undo" is there for a reason. Don't give him the satisfaction of turning his blatherings into drama. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All I did was prevent the article 'Anal whore' being created by anyone who is not auto-confirmed user. How is this different from the old list of articles that we had on RationalWiki:Anti-page_resurrection? 11:04, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Early morning activity
There can be few things more delightful than cleaning cat's vomit off the kitchen floor at 7:00 on Sunday morning. That is all. 06:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a tasty way to begin the day, indeed. 06:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That is why my cat lived in the basement.. so stuffs like that would never happen to me. 08:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So: you just leave cat's vomit to pile up in the basement? Ugh! 12:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Cats in the house? Euurgh, how cruel. Our pussies always lived outside in their own room and were free to come and go as they pleased. 17:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My cat(s) lives where they choose, they have ingress/egress through a small ever open window. That's what's really annoying - he or she did it INSIDE on the kitchen floor in front of the sink!. 17:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, just had a smacked wrist: should be our cats. 18:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Was this the saem cat what spilled a bottle of good scotch... as reported elsewhere some time ago? If so perhaps it hasn't long to go to life #9? CЯacke ® 18:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Twas Gin actually, not sure which one puked so can't promise it vet trip yet. 18:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Translation Party
http://translationparty.com/tp/#285033 I'm getting more amused by the second. 12:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" &rarr; "Our hearts, noble suffering slings and arrows tis." Strange. 14:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Equilibrium found at "Andrew Schlafly, gerbil, held head-butt". 20:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And "Atheist, explained Ken gay" 21:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So what did you input for that? http://translationparty.com/tp/#938114 I got another one that ended "Andrew Schlafly, gerbil ass rape", but I don't want to post for fear of defamation and libel. 17:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Oooh toy!
Kenyan birth certificate generator! Totnesmartin (talk) 09:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now we see if WND is gullible enough to fall for something generated by it. 15:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know about you but I find it really embarassing whenever I post something that has been covered in greater depth higher up the page . 17:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

That's what I get for wandering away from RW for a few days. i should have realised you lot would be on it quicker than the facebook johnny-come-latelies. Totnesmartin (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh that's what that section is about. I usually ignore things that get passed a certain size. 18:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's just me but it's funny that Kenyan Birth Certificate! Get Yer Kenyan Birth Certificate Here! didn't give you any clues. 14:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

First time..
So, I just need some of the other user's thoughts on drinking (their favourite drink). As well as, how much would a 5'11" / 150 pound (181cm / 68kg) male be able to "handle" before feeling a slight buzz.

Tonight is my first time ever being blessed with attending one of those "parties"--I haven't been to a party since 4th grade, but that was a birthday party with only pain and sugar to get high off of. 08:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For myself, I find these things proceed in fours. Four pints is enough to render me unfit to operate heavy machinery, and is my usual social drinking limit. Eight pints is when I begin to lose the power to have intelligent conversations, while twelve is when I lose all fine motor control. The Mumbles mile was the perfect pub crawl for me, ten pints in all and a pleasant walk home along on the beach after. Adjust as necessary for US beer being pissed by Amish virgins and/or you having no tolerance for alcohol. -- 10:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't edit the interweb while pissed. It ends bad.
 * No, editing the interweb doesn't make a good hangover cure - though if it's really a "first time" you may not have a bad head, most people seem to develop the ability to die in the morning and I kmow 20-somethings you get bladdered to the point where they can't stand and can still get up bright-eyed for the Jeremey Kyle Show. Basterds the lot of them. 11:21, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking as a 5'1" female who has been "off the booze" more or less for over a year, I'd say that the equivalent of one (English) pint of (English) beer will probably have you buzzin', so just take it steady and if you find your mouth saying things before your brain has examined them: STOP. 12:58, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Take things at the pace you want - we all talk about drinking and how fun it is (and it is) but there's no point getting bladdered if you don't want to. Just have a good time.
 * BUT speaking as an Anglo-Irishman, about 6 pints gets me a-going. 13:06, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Physical size won't be the variable to determine your buzziness. Type/strength of drink (near-beer vs shots of tequila, say) will be a big factor.  Your (current lack of) tolerance will slow you down a lot.  And there will be a delay from the time you throw one back until you really start to feel it.  Take it slow and easy.  Don't drink on an empty stomach.  Pretend to drink about three times as much as you actually do.  Watch for pretty girls who don't know these guidelines.--WJThomas (talk) 13:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I would recommend that you stay sober at this party and watch the other attendees get drunk and act like complete morons; that should put you off alcohol. If you must drink, take one bottle or glass of beer and have no more than one sip per minute; that will leave time for the alcohol to move through without making you drunk. 15:31, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to have fun in order to get drunk. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Being about the same size as you and looking back at when I first started drinking, I'd say 3 beers = buzzed, 6 = drunk, and 12 = shithoused. If you go beyond that, you'll probably lose a portion of the night. Just don't do anything too stupid, that's my only recommendation. Don't drive drunk, don't vomit anywhere but the toilet or the bushes, and don't take out your penis.-- 16:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ...Unless you're going to put it in something. 16:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My brother gave me a sip of beer at my 17th birthday (I think it was Miller lite), and man.. it tasted like piss, and smelled like puke. So, I'm pretty sure I'll stay away from the beer.
 * Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll probably only have 4 ounces of something. Thankfully, I'm not driving there, my fiancée is--and as long as there aren't Jello shots, we'll be okay.
 * When I'm about to leave I'll block myself and take away my rights just to keep you guys save. Unfortunately, I can't do the same thing with other sites, so I'll just log out of them and delete the bookmarks and history. I hope that works.
 * Thank you again. I'm glad I didn't ask *chan for advice. 20:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Kettle, at 150 lbs and not much drinking practice, one "drink" should make you feel buzzy, two make you really silly and slurry, three and you'll be climbing the floor but having fun. Four is definite stop time.  If you don't drink regularly/daily, those rules will carry you through life.  However... If you drink regularly, it takes six drinks to feel the effect, twelve to make a toothache go away, and anything beyond that you are still processing the next "morning".  A "drink" = one normal crappy beer, 4-6 oz of wine, or 1.5 or so ounces of 80 proof licker.  "Morning" = 8-10 hours after you pass out.  "Hangover" = IPUs reward for abusing your bodies capacity to process, please to throw up outside.  07:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Don't drive drunk" - better idea: swear off ever touching a steering wheel if you have had even one drink. It can save many woes.  By the way, even seasoned alcoholics who don't even slur until the ninth "drink" are incapacitated as soon as everyone else.  CF for evidence, look at any of my posts that come after 2-3 AM EST.  Oh.... shit.  07:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As a reformed transgressor I must reinforce Human's admonition. In hindsight I realise that I was incredibly foolhardy in my youth and was extremely lucky that I never came to any harm nor caused any to others. DRIVING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS and you need to keep your wits about you 100% of the time. Any distraction such as mobile phones, cups of hot coffee, Big Macs, blowjobs or even an over-talkative passenger are not worth the possible consequences. I work in a dangerous industry but the biggest killer by far is road accidents. If there's any chance that you might partake in alcohol before you go out, leave the car keys at home. Even if you don't drink but might be late coming home don't even think about driving while tired - it's almost as bad as alcohol or drugs (even prescription - if it says "don't operate heavy machinery" then that means cars too!) 14:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * An interesting experiment was conducted using London bus drivers in the 60's. They were asked to judge the smallest gap they could get their bus through and then to actually try an ever diminishing gap. Then they were give a large vodka - two UK units of alcohol - and the experiment was repeated. Not only did the 'judged' smallest gap decrease and the 'achieved' smallest gap increase but they crossed over - they could no longer make the gap they judges as achievable. Had the gap been anything more concrete than road cones they would have damaged the bus. The conclusion - an amount or alcohol which is well below the UK legal limit is still enough to have a definite and dramatic effect on driving skills, even with the best drivers. Bob Soles (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Waitaminute, Kettle--you have a fiancée BEFORE you've ever gotten hammered? You're doing it wrong. Live a little. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 14:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The world would, I think, be a better place if we had less people "living a little" and more people becoming engaged before becoming thoroughly drunk. 15:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Tell me, was it the Young Puritans who turned you on to joining the Young Victorians, or vice versa? Anyway, ye gods. Call yourself an Odinist? Have you even read Hovamol? Shun not the mead, dammit. -- 15:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Whatever happened to all the fun in the world?" -Frank Zappa. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * On the plus side, I can now add "prig" to my list of L-X adjectives. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Jeeves, no, the turning on in that department must be credited to the Young Idiots who became drunk in my presence and occasionally felt the need to make use of my toilet in order to disgorge themselves of the previous night's revelry. If the Havamal contains the sayings of Odin then he is in complete agreement with me on that point:
 * Best is the banquet one looks back on after,
 * And remembers all that happened.
 * 15:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah. You know all those after school specials you watched that told you how you don't have to drink, take drugs or have pre-marital sex to be cool? Those were lies. You really do. Imagine your favourite band. Now imagine Hanson. That's what your favourite band would be like if they didn't drink. -- 16:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As my "favorite band" happens to be the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra, I can only reply, No Comment. 16:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I only had like 1/2 a jello shot because they were prepared wrong (had too much alcohol). I also had like a cup (maybe 6 to 8 ounces) of something called "Jungle Juice" (?). That stuff tastes good. It had pineapples, peach and lime seltzer, mango + mandarine juice, "red flavoured" Kool-Aid mix, and an indeterminate amount of vodka. You could only taste that alcohol if you concentrated on it, otherwise, it tasted like regular fruit punch.
 * So, umm, can I have my rights back now? 18:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, Master Skittlewicket. 18:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pssh.. Please, call me Mistress. 18:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Google has worked out what Orly Taitz is about
I was going to add this to the birthers article but it didn't fit. Apparently even Google recognises it as an attack site. 12:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Now let's hope it gets moved to the figurative Page Zero. ENorman (talk) 14:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's the problem of firefox. Trying to navigate through by exception goes to a completely different website for some reason.  Anyone tried Chrome to verify that it's Google?  00:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Absolutely no such banner for me! (Ubuntu/FFox) 01:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is part of Norton's Internet Security, when you click why was this blocked, it says Google has made 46 page requests to this site and 21 came back with viruses and malware. I was amused it called it an attack site, which it is, just not in the way they mean. 01:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It can't be just Norton or Firefox.. I get that every once in a while with Windows XP (SP1a) and Opera 9.64. 18:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Question...
After the minor controversy over the insomnia article I created, I feel I should ask before I create another which could be considered off-topic...

An article about enablers? i.e. "Conservapedia is full of mutual enablers who convince themselves that they are unbiased and fair." Wiggles (talk) 15:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, I hate to be the guy who craps all over you, but if you're going to write a marginally on-topic article like that (have you read out mission statement?) make it Fun and funny. Lame CP-centered stuff, we have plenty of. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:11, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I asked for an opinion and you gave one. Thank you. Although I don't mean to make it entirely CP centric. Wiggles (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * An article about enablers might work, if 1. it pays attention to the mission, and 2. leave fucking CP out of it. Better way to join in the fun - yak on talk pages, edit existing articles until you find your way around a bit more.  07:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it time?
I was thinking about this yesterday, and Mr. Wiggles's query above re: an article on "enablers" that picked on CP as its focus made me wonder: we seem to have picked up quite a few new users in the last couple months or so. Is it maybe time for a boycott to purge ourselves of some CP-centeredness and broaden things out for a while? I mean, Andy's a moron, TK's a dick, Ed liveblogs Star Trek, Karaou is a cowardly bully, Ken's a repressed homosexual who edits poorly...we get it. How 'bout a longer boycott this time? 'Til Labour Day--really challenge ourselves to do more and better. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It has been rather dull around there lately. Second the motion. 16:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting idea, (especially now that I've finished my Schlafly Doo saga) but what else is there to observe upon? I think CUR made a suggestion similar to this when he was here and it didn't go down great, although that's possibly just because it was CUR. 16:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. It would be great if that made the clogs/blogs/world areas more active, which they deserve to be.-- 16:43, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course we should look at other things beyond CP in more detail. The trouble is we're so familiar with the characters(?) on there that it's easy to laugh, as it is with aSK. Trent has been manfully trying to get us to look at other things on and off for ages. Wiki4cam died, is Wikisynergy worth a go. We've got to either be able to contribute or feel almost personally offended to take any lasting interest. A boycott? just cancel WIGOCP & Talk:WIGOCP for the forseeable future: they (TK) are getting more jollies out of our reaction than we are from the idiocy. 16:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * CMI or AiG are good for endless laughs; most of their articles are so full of lunacy that they merit side-by-sides. 17:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I say we rear our collective ugly head towards CMI, AiG, WND, and find a nice alt medicine site too. ENorman (talk) 21:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * WND could sustain its own WIGO if we could perma link to reader comments and letters to the editor. Any one want to raise this over at WIGO CP talk? 22:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd say I agree. BUt I already have been boycotting their site for about 6 months. I don't even vandalize there anymore becasue the time I spend doing that is better spent here, amongst my "web friends".The Goonie 1 (talk) 02:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Vandals and parodists at Conservapedia are missing the whole point, viz., that the non-parody stuff is even more loony. 02:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have vowed to my beloved Kels to oppose any boycott of CP suggested. Boycotts kill our traffic, and half the fun here (after all, many are WIGO CP addicts), and accomplish nothing in terms of building the "rest of RW".  Let's just work on the "rest of RW".  Let's get wikisynergy to entertain us or something.  07:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am opposed to any boycott beyond the U.S.'s Labor Day, unless of course we are going to make our fabled final roar, out all socks and leave Conservapedia to implode. 15:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * With regards to a boycott, why just stick to a boycott template? Remove it from the front page and WIGO templates and basically "hide" it for the duration. I don't mean full-on admin hide it, but just disable the easy and obvious links to it. You know, actually enforce the RW sourced ban on looking at CP for a while? 15:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be good to boycott for a few months just to piss TK off. His head would probably explode from the lack of attention, especially if you block his RW sock for the duration as well. 21:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)