User:MarcusCicero/Communism

For the sake of clarity, I'm copy pasting all of my comments on the communism talk page. Because they got buried and partly because that talk page has officially become an embarrasment.

There clearly is a need for such a section. Both communism and the Soviet Union are getting off pretty lightly here, in my opinion. You cannot make a disconnect between the idea of communism - which may or may not have been realised in the Soviet Union (That phase of communist progression that is supposed to anticipate the withering away of the State as a workers' paradise is gradually constructed) - and how it played out in practise (Authoritarianism, little personal freedom, 'secret police' etc. etc.) The international left (And I consider myself part of that) need to come to terms with its own inherited shame. Jean Paul Satre was an inveterate admirer of Stalin until the day he died - and both men are now regarded in common memory as absolute bufoons. We should really learn something from how somebody so manifestly intelligent (Satre) could be so wilfully deluded. MarcusCicero (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Nobody thinks the Belgian abuses in the Congo are worthy of honourable memory. Considering there are no imperialists left, at least not in the 19th century imagining of them, its stupid to even make that comparison. This article is so hopelessly uncritical it tends to give RW a bad impression, as if its some apologia for the Soviet Union and Communism. Explorations of authoritarianism indeed. MarcusCicero (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing incorrect about calling self proclaimed communists who operated within a socialist state 'communists'. The socialist state, dominated by the vanguard political party that by its nature does not permit dissent, is supposed to be the first stage in the eventual communist trajectory towards a stateless society. Its more of a religious cult than a political theory, but regardless. MarcusCicero (talk) 20:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Communism has existed before and after Marx. Marx is probably the most important theorist but there are several other equally valid examples. That is why the term 'Marxist-Leninist' is so interchangable. And besides, the dictatorship of the proletariat is essentially their organisation within a vanguard political party - at least in the statist stage of communist progression. In theoretical terms, the members of the party are supposed to be engaged in raw democracy and decision making - to quote Trotsky (An inveterate little rat of a man, by the way) democracy is the lifeblood of socialism. Its funny that he only started saying things like that after Stalin began to marginalise him. The inevitable result was always going to be the development of tiny elites who have almost absolute power within the State, rubber stamping new iniatives through the workers. The reason? The democratic basis of communism rests on the assumption that a) natural leaders will be virtuous and defer to the people - despite providing no real mechanism for the people to enforce their wishes and b) all proletariats would naturally want to partake in the communist party infrastructure. Only counter-revolutionaries, capitalists, fascists  would wish to remain outside the blessed virtues of communist democratic monopoly. Thus communism requires total consent to work - an obvious fallacy. MarcusCicero (talk) 20:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this right wing hobby horse is un-necessarily confusing the issue, and its telling that EVdebs would only respond to the loon in question, thus ignoring the more salient argument. Its a pity, but what can you do. Can we please get back to the fundamental point - ie, this article needs drastic change and needs to remove the overal aura of being an apologia for communist failings. MarcusCicero (talk) 08:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC) With regards to the 'No True Scotsman' argument (IE, 'Marx would never have allowed that!') there is only one real answer to that. The liberal democratic system owes its origins to dozens of thinkers extrapolating on a variety of philosophical first principles - Hobbes, Paine, Burke, Locke, Rousseau etc. etc. Its difficult to even find a foundational text that clearly in a black and white fashion lays down all the fundamental principles of the democratic republic.

Commie sympathisers and apologists need to understand that they make the political ideology sound like a religious cult when they constantly harken back to Marx, the major theorist in question. Marx didn't have the first word on what a communist system would look like, and he clearly hasn't had the last. Saying 'Marx wouldn't have approved' isn't an argument and unless somebody is willing to challenge the core of the issue here there really is little point trying to change this article. MarcusCicero (talk) 08:29, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

That would be all well and good if this was a 'dispassionate' account of communism and what it is in theory. A) It makes no effort to appear neutral and dispassionate. B) You wouldn't write an article about National Socialism without taking into account the Holocaust. C) There is nothing politically correct about wanting a rational, thorough and critical analysis of a major political theory on an internet site that purports to accomplish such a thing. At present this article attempts to clumsily say that communism is alright, and if it wasn't for those damn kids/Americans it would have turned out just fine, y'all!. Rationalwiki should be more critical about this. It's a pretty lame article you'd expect an impressionable college student fresh from the local chapter of the Trotskyist party to scrawl. MarcusCicero (talk) 21:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This is something I'm seeing more and more of on the internet - 'Lenin was a great guy'. All I can say to that is 'lol'. MarcusCicero (talk) 22:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Lenin was the most doctrinairre of them all. Stalin was opportunistic and brutal borne from self interest, Lenin was ruthless and unrelenting borne from ideological purity. The entire concept of someone killing many many people in the name of ideas is so elitist and wrong. He commanded and oversaw a genocide of the Kulaks, ordering that every last one should be shot. Trotsky - a deeply flawed man himself - called him 'a caricature of jacobin intolerance' MarcusCicero (talk) 08:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Stalin was a bad man. Doubtless he would have been a bad man whether he became dictator of the Soviet Union or not (I'd imagine he would have ended up in a mental hospital otherwise) But I think you overlook the point of whether communism contains structural defects or not. What about the atrocities before Stalin? The genocide of the Kulaks, the Krondstadt massacres? Lenin and Trotsky were both bloody men. I've stated above what is structurally wrong with communism that permits its degeneration into tyranny and mass bloodletting; doubtless ye are choosing not to read it. Either way, any ideology that believes the perfect society is but around the corner, any ideology that has revolution as its fundamental characteristic, is always going to degenerate into violence. I often wonder why otherwise intelligent people refuse to confront this. MarcusCicero (talk) 21:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you please answer me why it is that every single communist who ever achieved political office and completed 'revolution' has eventually degenerated into a police state awash with blood? I mean, every single one? I'm all for coincidence, but you'd have to be a moron to really simplify it so basically that 'only bad people get into power'. It is the duty of historians and political scientists to attempt to find answers to such questions. I've already explained why I think communism has structural defects that allows megalomaniacs to take power. Unfortunately people wish to ignore that and pretend that it is a minor historical anamoly and not some structural issue with communism itself. I must admit this merry go round is grinding my patience. MarcusCicero (talk) 22:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

EvDebs; I really don't understand how you can genuinely believe you are being 'dispassionate' here. And you refuse to understand that the local government you are referring to is under a wider liberal democratic umbrella, and thus not a communist state or socialist entity. But anyway. I'm giving up. Its going nowhere. Communism truly is the last stain on the international lefts conscience, they seem incapable of analysing it rationally or dispassionately. There really is no point wasting time with some people about this. MarcusCicero (talk) 07:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC) As a final point, can I ask why you will not debate with the rebuttals I've offered above? MarcusCicero (talk) 08:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)