Forum:Avenger and Arisboch said something

How one derails an apology thread

 * On how many pages you gonna whine about not getting your way? Probably take it to Twitter or similar like Dragondragon and Fox Elaine did?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 19:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you, Arisboch, feel what I'm writing has only to do with me. And as usual, you avoid the realities I set forth to simply, again, attempt to make me the issue. Oh well.---Mona- (talk) 19:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hasn't she tweeted (and threatened us all with her "journo-buddies") in the past? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, she did. C'mon, Mona, bring it on! Where are your journo-buddies? Sic them at us! Don't be any more of a liar then you already are!!--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * They were probably murdered by Zionists who planted knives on them... A grainy video on RT says so! Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Say, since you guys are posting this in a section titled "A long-due apology", is this perhaps a lead-up to you guys making a sincere, heart-felt apology to Mona for being so abusive towards her? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 21:27, 3 November 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Thanks 142BoN, but I neither want nor expect that from either of those two. They've prevailed, even if several I/P-related pages are, for now, of high quality with sourcing that's reliable. The community wants what they offer.
 * ADDING, it is true I had, early on, stated that the situation here was a good microcosm for showing how Zionists rule an information site to suppress truth, something writers I know might find interesting and illustrative. But that was before I realized they are an ideological minority and are not the ultimate problem. The actual problem is pedestrian and not remotely interesting or newsworthy. ---Mona- (talk) 22:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "Thanks" for feeding her giant persecution complex, 142.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 23:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Say it often enough, and people believe you? No, Arisboch, this wiki is the wrong venue for that kind of empty spinning bullshit. The endless Mona-bashing is getting tiresome, making you look like a Johnny one-note. CamelCasePragmatist (talk) 23:17, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, I can't sing that well, but thank you.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 23:22, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I think Mona will be doing a very badly staged LANCB soon and come back as a badly disguised sock even sooner... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:03, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

What the hell is wrong with you people? These vicious personal attacks need to stop! You aren't even doing it on your own talk page, but hers! Do you have no respect for your fellow editors, regardless of whether you disagree with their views? Mona doesn't have anything to do with this. Aren't we past abusing other users just because we disagree with them? This should not be a personal fight at all. We should be having a decent, professional discussion of the point-of-view of our articles on Israel/Palestine. Not some internet flame-war. This isn't Conservapedia. This is RationalWiki. We're better than this. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 00:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd be rather tempted to insert the RATIONALWiki template, if I didn't think, that this template is biggest bunch of bollocks on this whole goddamn site. The wahmbulance has been called.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 00:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * [ec] Here, since he once asked, is one of the reasons I consider avenger to be an asshole of the first water (and an unwelcome shit-stirrer.) Nice derailing, you two. Alec Sanderson (talk) 00:18, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * (ec) :User:PacWalker - that's a kind message and one that was clearly appreciated. I salute you for doing that. Pbfreespace3 you (probably unwittingly) summarise so much that is wrong with RW. Personal abuse towards other editors is not only tolerated here it is positively welcomed by some and seen as a badge of honour in a most distasteful manner (it's all for the lolz, don't you see?). I wish we were indeed "better than this" as you state, and we certainly should be. This is the key reason why I will never be anything more than a fringe contributor at this Wiki. Mona has done an admirable job in the face of all of that but I can detect (I am sure I am not the only one) that even she is now just about over it.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 00:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

You seem to believe, that the Hamas did (purportedly) change their opinion
but you doesn't allow that doubt in case of Bibi because of a book he wrote 15 years ago?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 03:20, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See the rest of the linked reference.---Mona- (talk) 03:24, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks more like he sees no possibility of a Palestinian state given the situation now.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 03:39, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't believe that's a reasonable assessment of an iron-willed, ruthless man like Benjamin Netanyhu. His words have heretofore always precluded a Palestinian state in any meaningful sense. His deeds now (ever-increasing settlements) totally undermine any mumblings he makes for show. All kinds of people, even friends, have been documented calling the man a liar.---Mona- (talk) 03:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * ADDING: Look who he appointed as ambassador to the UN.---Mona- (talk) 04:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hamas has never said "Given x y and z we can make peace with Israel" Netanyahu has repeatedly said he'd be willing to have a Palestinian state given certain conditions. And he is willing to open negotiations with the PLO without any preconditions. Has Hamas ever signalized to be willing to negotiate with Israel? What is keeping the PLO from negotiating with Netanyahu, given he repeatedly called for talks without preconditions? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 19:58, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And here's Netanyahu's Education Minister on Israeli radio yesterday: “The era of a Palestinian state is coming to a close...I think the Palestinian issue is diminishing, and it is about time to prepare for the day after and to lay out for ourselves what the Israeli national interest is.”---Mona- (talk) 20:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Mona, do you know the latest polls in Israel? How many Israelis would vote in favor of a demilitarized Palestinian state with borders based on in the 1967 lines that signs a peace treaty with Israel? I don't know the numbers, but I guess a handy majority would still take this no questions asked. Sadly, the same can't be said about the Palestinian side... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Speaking of polls -- those that actually exist -- among Jewish Israelis, " A 53% majority(!) of the Jewish interviewees agreed with the statement that “any Palestinian who has perpetrated a terror attack against Jews should be killed on the spot, even if he has been apprehended and no longer poses a threat.” And: "There is wide agreement in the Jewish public (80%) that the home of the family of a Palestinian who has murdered Jews on a nationalist background should be demolished. Regarding a Jew who has murdered Palestinians on a nationalist background, the pattern of responses is the opposite: the majority (53%) does not agree that his family’s home should be demolished, while 41% say otherwise. The Arab public shows greater consistency on this issue, though there is a certain tendency to favor the Palestinian side: the majority does not agree that the family home of a Palestinian perpetrator should be demolished (77%), but a large majority (67%) also opposes demolishing the family home of a Jewish perpetrator. Apparently demolishing a family home is an unacceptable act for the Arab public, without connection to who and what is involved." ---Mona- (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Mona smearing Jews as evil, part five thousand three hundred twenty seven... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Reality has an anti-Zionist bias. Zionists are always the victims in Surrealland; not the Arabs they occupy and are summarily executing. Not the Arab families whose homes are demolished by the Zionists.---Mona- (talk) 21:05, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Confiscation of the property of criminals is rather common.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:11, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * How does one go about occupying people? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:09, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Everyone believes, that reality is biased towards their POV and/or their pet cause.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:08, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Collective punishment is entirely uncommon in Western democracies. Rejection of it is a core value. Taking the homes -- razing them -- of families where one member who is not even the owner is repugnant. So is summary execution. And these punishments are not meted out to Jews or their families. #apartheid---Mona- (talk) 22:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Go back to Twitter, Mona Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:29, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Arisboch, it matters not what "everyone" believes. What does matter is that reality actually is unfavorable to the Zionist narrative. Or, do you favor "other ways of knowing" over empiricism and logic?---Mona- (talk) 00:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * At least the reality you pull out of your ass.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 17:28, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Mona do you want to tell us that Antisemitism does not exist? And that "the West" is piss poor at helping Jews not getting killed? The first assumption of Zionism is this: "Antisemitism won't go away. And the only thing that helps if Jews are run out of their countries is if they have a place to go to." And this place is Israel. Hence why Israel is the only state in the world whose existence is not merely optional... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 18:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If this one state is so special and essential to you, Avenger, why do you seek to enable its corruption? The threat Israel faces currently isn't an external military one, it's an internal moral one. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:15, 11 November 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * The threat that Israel currently faces is Iran. The whole Palestinian mess is merely a distraction. Yitzhak Rabin had his advisers tell him "Look, before too long all your attention will have to be focused on Iran" And he said "Well thaen let's get this Palestinian BS over with". Unfortunately Arafat, Abbas (and the Hamas even more) don't wish to live in peace with Israel. And so the distraction is ongoing while Iran is slowly but surely converting from a major threat to an existential threat with their nuke building. Yes Iran is trying to build nukes. The only question is how successful they are... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 18:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:21, 11 November 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Arisboch, I know you know better than this: "At least the reality you pull out of your ass." I deal in documentable and documented facts. You simply cannot provide counter-factuals, and you detest the facts. And save the super-script, not only do I believe it, you do as well.---Mona- (talk) 18:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Stuff people pull out of asses tends to be brown. In this case it is also true in the political sense for Mona... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 18:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * More like an alarming mixture of brown and red with sprinkles of green.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 18:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously, Avenger, if Israel is under such serious threat from Iran, what are you doing here spending your time on what you yourself describe as a 'distraction'? Go on and document these military threats instead of whitewashing Israel's actions and enabling its moral corruption. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:47, 11 November 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Avenger isn't here to document anything. Arisboch has said he does not do research. Avenger may well be a hasbara troll: ﻿ "The exploits of the propaganda soldiers conscripted into Israel’s online army have helped give rise to the phenomenon of the 'hasbara troll,' an often faceless, shrill and relentless nuisance deployed on Twitter and Facebook." Whatever they are, they don't do facts and detest it when others do.---Mona- (talk) 18:54, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * You don't call me hasbara? How could you?! I'm offended!!!!1--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 18:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "Moral corruption" That's a fine looking high horse... You know, if there is one thing Jews might have learned from history it's this: "If you're dead nobody cares about morality". Even if some things Israel has done may be considered a moral grey area, it beats being killed by Hamas or the Mullahs hands down... But of course living Jews are somehow offensive to people like Mona. Because they want to stay alive. And staying alive sometimes includes self-defense... (gasp!) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 18:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Dead people receive more flowers than the living ones because regret is stronger than gratitude. --Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 19:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That indeed seems to be the case. Judging from Avenger's response to my comment, he takes neither the internal moral threat to Israel's character nor the supposed threat from Iran he brought up seriously. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 19:22, 11 November 42015 AQD (UTC)

"But of course living Jews are somehow offensive to people like Mona." Yes, that's why when my oldest child was killed my primary support was my dearest friend, a gay Jew. Fuck off with that hideous bullshit, Avenger.---Mona- (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hm, bringing your dead relatives up to win an argument on the Internet? Nothing I would do.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 19:41, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, you use dead Jews instead. So much better! 142.124.55.236 (talk) 20:03, 11 November 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * I quoted her diary, not used her for emotional blackmail like Mona did.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 20:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Moreover, it wasn't about my son per se. It was that I treasure a dear friend who was good to me, and he's Jewish. That I'd want him dead is a repugnant thought.---Mona- (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I personally don't think, that you're an antisemite (more like anti-Western, but this is sometimes rather hard to tell and involves cheerleading for people, who are indeed antisemites).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 20:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I do not "cheerlead" for any antisemites, ever. Western ones are repugnant, having no morally understandable reason for it; some Muslim antisemites are merely hating their enemy. Many Muslims who are antisemitic are so in the same way, and for corresponding reasons, that many Zionists are Islamophobic.---Mona- (talk) 20:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * First you say, you don't cheerlead for antisemites, only to write in the next sentence, what antisemitism you seem to find palatable enough to cheerlead for to further your pet cause(s)...--20:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "what antisemitism you seem to find palatable" I do not find it "palatable." Do you understand why a British man who was on the Bataan Death March would say that, even when still in his 80s, that he has a visceral reaction of hatred to any Asian-looking face? I heard a Brit say that on some PBS show decades ago, and I understood it. That man is not akin to white supremacists ranting about the Yellow Menace.---Mona- (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Emotional blackmail? Please. It is surpassingly common for bereaved parents to lose many of their friends, especially if the parent cannot work well or enjoy social events for a very long time. People do not like being around you. You find out who your real friends are. One of mine is Jewish.---Mona- (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean your friends, you know...--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 20:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)