RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive26

Shcary Thundershtorm
I stayed up with my brother last night smoking and drinking til about 2 after I got in from work, which was bloody hilarious. Then I went to bed and waited about 2 hours before I fell asleep. Then I woke up when there was a massive thunderstorm at 7 in the morning and I thought the mall a couple miles from my house had blown up because this clap of thunder was SO loud. Then I reasoned with myself that it probably wasn't a terroristic attack at 7 o'clock on a Sunday morning. 10:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We had a minor earthquake Friday night whilst on holiday in south Wales. 16:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I got a really bad mosquito bite yesterday.--WJThomas 16:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I got punched in the face on a bus... two years ago. 16:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's raining out now, but yesterday was beautiful weather. --Gulik 18:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I managed to get a hook in a fish's mouth and yanked him out of the water. 20:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I read Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan to be exact, in prep for an exam tomorrow. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 04:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I jump-started a friend's car at the ungodly early hour of 2:30 PM AD. 04:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I had to carry my bag to number 73 as the baggage belt at the airport check-in was broken. 09:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like turtles! Crundy 14:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like armadillos! Totnesmartin 14:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Jambo!
Greetings from Tanzania. I tried to post this earlier when I comented on CUR's latest silliness above, but the power went out. Things I will never take for granted when I get back home include a reliable source of electricity, clean water coming out of my tap,and not having the muezzins wake me up at five AM every bloody day. Bloody religion--follows us everywhere. Hope you're all well, will be in touch when I'm back in the US of A. TheoryOfPractice 19:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, CUR's up to his old tricks again. He's embroiled us in a bit of wackiness concerning a new bar he tried to open. Enjoy your time in Tanzania, boning up on your Swahili and whatnot. And yes, I double checked on Wikipedia before I said it. 20:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, CUR has made some good articles, and has been helping very well with the 101... article. 20:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know. I get on quite well with him actually. It's just hilarious watching the RationalWiki soap opera where CUR is the psycho one running around and causing havoc, pissing off a lot of people and making the rest of us watch and laugh. Me, anyway. 20:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why thank you... I think. -- 20:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Surely you're aware that Barack HUSSEIN Obama is busy turning the US in to a Muslim nation as we speak? The minarets are going up across the country, staffed by a horde of muezzins trained at the department of faith based annoyances. You'll never sleep past 5 ever again! -- 21:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Good to hear from you ToP. Hope you're having an exciting time in Tanzania, in spite of the above complaints. 22:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If it were me, I'd be having an absolutely astounding time. For example, I would suggest going on a safari to the Serengeti National Park (lions, cheetahs, leopards, hippopotamuses, elephants, zebra, buffalo, water buck, crocodiles, gazelle, warthogs, and wildebeest), and Kilimanjaro. I'd also suggest trying the domestic beers Kilimanjaro, Serengeti and Safari. There's also diving and snorkeling. Damn I wish I was there now. -- 22:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As for electricity and running water, I'd suggest going to one of the larger cities and finding a five-star hotel. -- 22:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tanzania eh? Very nice, I'll be up that way myself in a couple of years. Doing a self drive 4x4 mission from Johannesburg towards the North. Not sure where the end point is yet. Might try get as far as Kenya. Anyways, also good to hear from you ToP. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 22:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm going to try to get to Kenya, then go down to South Africa and take a west. I'll end up and Namibia and go here. -- 22:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You'd like South Africa. Been there twice and loved every minute. Though might pay to get to know someone there first, makes it eaiser to get around. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 22:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Such as you, I take it. Fortunately, I have a Plan. It involves a GPS, binoculars, and being able to speak Zulu. Oh, and a map Never mind, men can't read maps. -- 22:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And take a rifle. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 23:01, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer an AK-47 that fires Teflon-coated titanium bullets at a rate of fifty a second. Or a Taser. -- 22:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whyyyyy? That doesn't sound very defensive or very sporting.  [[image:defensive.gif]]   22:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If I were going to have a gun, it should at least look cool. -- 22:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * South Africa is OK and I liked Namibia. Angola gave me the creeps (too many people with body parts missing). Nigeria is one of the worst for in your face religion. There was an article in the Grauniad last week (or was it on Radio 4?) about how Nigerians are evangelizing in the USA. 09:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I met acouple of Nigerian evangelists during the Iraq war protest in Bristol. They told me that these were the worst times ever and the end will come soon. I said "look around you. Sixty years ago this city was bombed flat, and today you wouldn't know it. We've come through a lot worse than this." They didn't know about the Bristol blitz. Totnesmartin 16:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

As per Ace's comment above, us Sauf Effricens are always willing to befriend the lonely tourist... mostly because when we go out with them, we get to carry a sign which says (in all 11 official languages) "Don't mug me, the guy next to me has dollars." (Altho I jest, it's nowhere near as bad as the media would have you believe. Lived here for 35 years and only been robbed once - and that was having my radio nicked out the car, which can happen anywhere.) --PsyGremlinWhut? 15:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Cure cancer with your computer!
Stanford University runs a distributed computing program called Folding@home. You download the program, and it runs in the background, using only those computer resources you yourself aren't using. The programs analyzes proteins and simulates the "folding" of them, which is vital to our understanding of the role proteins play in the human body, and it helps us understand the role they play in numerous cancers and many other diseases as well.

There is an official Team RationalWiki participating in this program. I founded the team over a year ago, but now that I'm gone, I bequeath it you, RationalWiki.


 * To participate, download the program.
 * To join Team RationalWiki, when you are configuring the program when it first installs, enter your RationalWiki username (or some variation thereof) in the "User name" box, and enter 117562 in the "Team number" box.

Sincerely,

04:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it kinda like the SETI@Home business? Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 04:49, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. But more useful.  : )   04:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I usedta do that. I didn't get any prizes, though.  Usefulness depends on what you want your computer working on.  04:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was hoping for a bit more enthusiasm than that. : (   05:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As Human and I are both smokers, drinkers and potential cancer sufferers we probably should be a little more proactive about such things... Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 05:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * SETI never sent me a pet alien. Will Stanford send me a thoracic surgeon?  My Marlboro Miles won't quite cover it... PS, re:enthusiasm, see my comment at the page in question.  05:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sadly we are all potential cancer victims and cancer is not a single disease so exactly which cancers are being targetted? Two days ago I noticed a suspicious-looking mole on my leg (no mole jokes please, it's too obvious) so I will be monitoring it closely over the coming weeks. Have my years of low-protection sunscreen finally caught up with me? 09:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As an avid User Friendly fan all my spare cycles are already donated to the World Community Grid which has a number of worthy projects on the go. Silver Sloth 10:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You can set it up on your PS3 as well..should you have one :) Worm (t  10:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Signed up. Crundy 14:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, this. Stopped running it long ago for a reason I forgot... well, there's a way to find out. 21:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

BNP at the EU
So the BNP have won two seats in the European Parliament. Can't say I'm surprised, but I still remain sick, upset and embarassed that we have this bunch of racist fucks representing us. 18:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Look at the bright side; it's better than 8 years of being represented by Bush... 18:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * True, America lost a lot of credibility thanks to Bush. At least he wasn't racist though. 19:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Bush as Commander in Chief has far more influence than the BNP with two seats. It's still bad news, though. 19:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This makes me wonder why the BNP are interested in Europe at all... (Yes, I know it's satire, like the UK equiverlent of The Onion I think). 11:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Normal folk didn't take it lying down though (linky) Crundy 14:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * But like it or not, they were elected by the democratic process. You can't throw the toys (or in this case, the eggs) out of the pram just because the popular vote didn't go your way. 14:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

North Korea finds American journalists guilty
Check it. North Korea is really pushing it. Kim Jong-Il is toying with a superpower and he might realize that too late. 18:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I fear the knife-edge dance we must do to avoid coming down too hard or not hard enough.  20:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * After all the annoying nonsense done by North Korea and the "stern" responses from world leaders recently, I need someone to remind me: why aren't we just blowing up these people's rockets and nuclear facilities? We seem to usually know in advance when they're planning to launch something, and we know where their nuclear facilities are. This seems like an extreme option, so it's probably wrong, but I'm too annoyed right now with the 3rd grade drama surrounding North Korea to remember why just blowing their stuff up is a bad idea. OneForLogic 22:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm curious too. It would be best to do something now before they get their hands on more uranium. One of the benefits of being a superpower is the ability to make ultimatums: give us back the reporters or we'll assassinate all of your leading politicians. With all the tax dollars spent on our military you'd think that was a viable option. Reducing Kim Jong-Il's palace to rubble wouldn't be that difficult once the nuclear threats are taken care of. 22:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Mostly the whole "blow their shit up" is a bad idea because it allows NK to play the victim. It would also bring China and Russia, both strong NK allies, into the fight and could quickly throw gas on the fire.  The best thing to do is exactly what we are doing.  We sit back and let the dog rattle it's chain.  The reality is that NK can't do much.  They don't really have the ability to carry out their threats and are just trying to "pull an Iran."  They hope to scare the US into direct talks, but the Gov. isn't falling for it.  Should NK attack anyone, Japan and SK are going to light them up like a Christmas tree, so the best thing to do is exactly what we are doing.  22:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Look how well "blowing their shit up" worked in Iraq.  Besides however many laws we broke to do it.  22:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Asia is really a mess. China's becoming a powerful rival and global power, North Korea is being annoying, the Middle East is no longer worth the trouble now that we have pictures of all the important stuff, and the only thing Russia does is produce grandmasters. I say we nuke the whole god damn continent. What the hell, Europe can go too so we don't have to worry about drawing imaginary continent lines. And Antarctica as well. Fuck the penguins. ;D 22:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You are treading dangerous waters when you threaten the noble penguins Clepper...... 23:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, that was ridiculous. We don't even have the technology to oppose such noble and fearsome beasts. Perhaps bear cavalry and grues would do the trick. 04:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Seriously reading this thread made me facepalem. Do you people know this thing called history? We had this thing back in the early 50's called the Korean War. We bomb North Korea's shit and then what? 5,800,000 troops come down from the North cross the 38th parallel again. Lets see the US army about 1,090,000 troop. So you are now engaged in a ground war with an army 5 time your own size and China would probably be giving logistical support. Your plans for winning are? When was the last time the US fought a war against an opponent of even matched size, not in along time that is for sure. This is not a pissant little country like Iraq or Iran you can bully around, they can just say fuck off back and there is not a lot you can do about it. 00:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That was a little excessive. You might have missed the part where I said "This seems like an extreme option, so it's probably wrong". You might also have missed the part where everyone else explained why it was wrong. I'm not really sure what there was to facepalm about.
 * That said, if you'd like to read something that's facepalm-worthy, re-read your post after looking up some things called "modern weapons". We have them, the Democratic People's Republic doesn't. Our infantry are each worth way more than 6 of theirs. I could go on by discussing the dubious nature of your troop numbers, but I think I've made my point. OneForLogic 01:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You forget that the US had superior weaponry last time and it still ended in a stalemate, plus they would be fighting this war in Korea so all their reservist would be active. Also they are heavily in debt to the Chinese, who could at any moment drop the green back into the ground. Expensive weaponry costs money, cannon fodder is cheap. The chance of winning a prolonged war against North Korea is remote even with, Japan and South Korea assistance. The US would be bankrupt first. 01:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This is why we must develop hard-sound, microwave (Japan did it in WWII), and electrolaser guns. Oh, and since bullets are copper-plated, they should be able to be deflected using a simple magnetic field. Not that I'm actually for nuking NK, mind you- but it would be rather amusing to have the dog rattle the chain, and then have the mailman pull out a can of Mace, so to speak. -- 02:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * CUR do you know how strong an magnetic field that would be required to deflect a bullet travelling at that speed? Have a look into cyclotrons, they require huge amounts of power to spin an electron never mind something a relatively heavy as a bullet. "Electolaser guns"? Stop watching sci-fi crap it is effecting you sense of reality. Wars are fought by more than who has the newest gun. 02:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually electrolaser guns may be currently undergoing field testing in Iraq. -- 16:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If carried out correctly, this hypothetical war with North Korea wouldn't be "prolonged" at all. A single carrier group could wreak massive havoc on their infrastructure and military positions with utter impunity long before any ground engagement even started (forget the reservists; by the time the call for them went out, their bases would be smoking wrecks). I agree that cannon fodder is cheap, but it's still just that, 'cannon fodder'.
 * Thinking about China's ties to us, and how they would use them, is honestly much more interesting than militarily brushing aside the North. I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "drop the green back into the ground", but if you were referring to the fact that the PRC has deep economic and financial ties to the US, you were correct. The fact that the PRC's government maintains large cash reserves is also interesting. I don't believe it's as obvious as you claim that the Chinese would favor the DPRK over us in an open conflict. They have nothing to gain from propping up the DPRK, and much to lose in the long term if they align against us. That, I think, is the key difference between the 50s and today; we weren't soaking up Chinese goods in the 50s. OneForLogic 02:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I was thinking about the trillion dollars in US bonds China is the proud owner of. They could flood the market with bonds and in less than an hour the US dollar would be worth less than the paper it is printed on. Would China do this? Well the US gave it a shot against Britain of the whole Suez Canal, trying to devalue the pound to force Britain into stopping the whole charade. So if someone is willing to do it to a friend, I don't doubt they would do it to a frenemy. Wars cost money, so unless someone is willing to lend it to the US they are going to be in trouble. This is why they are carrying on now, they know the US is not in the financial state to deal with the problem. 02:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not really as simple as you make it out to be. It's essentially the financial equivalent of a scorched earth policy.  Sure, we'd be ruined, but China would be doubly-ruined.  Not only would they be broke, essentially selling US debt at fire-sale prices, but they wouldn't be able to grow their economy, as we couldn't afford to buy their cheap crap.  That's the "I'll take you down with me option", no one wins.   04:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Kim Jong-il is carrying on the way he is solely because he wants attention. He knows that if he didn't antagonize the world, he'd be utterly irrelevant. I still don't think it's obvious that the Chinese would oppose us. Devaluing the dollar in the way you describe would hurt them, too, by making it more difficult for us to buy their exports and further disrupting the world economy in general. During the Suez Crisis, the US and Britain were both industrialized world powers, there was a chance for wider war with the Soviet Union, and the US didn't actually carry out its threat to sell its sterling. Also, the US in the 50s had lots to gain by maintaining good relations with the Saudis, which was accomplished by forcing the British and company to back off. The Chinese still need us to maintain their economic growth and have nothing to gain by siding with the DPRK. OneForLogic 04:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is something China gain by siding with the DPRK. A Nuke capable protectorate, that's what.  Shoot nukes for you when you want them to (after selling appropriate missile technology).  You can still appear to have clean slate after that too.
 * Speaking of which, the Chinese may want to stay out of this mess, otherwise they lost the excuse of "interfering with internal affairs" for pretty much whatever kind of things they are doing. 12:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

A Quick Break
Just taking a quick break from cramming before my exam in a few hours. Cramming like mad trying get my political philosophies down. I am focussing on Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Machiavelli, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, David Hume and Karl Marx. Jeeeesus its been a tough battle and I cant figure out why, at my age, I decided to go to Uni. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 21:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah? I have to memorize these --  Nx / talk 21:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, good luck with that! After my exam however, I think I'll write us an article on David Hume. He was a pretty well respected Enlightenment philospher. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 21:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And he could out-consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. Totnesmartin 21:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll make sure thats the topic of my essay; "Enlightenment Philosphers and their Drinking Habits - Who Could They Out Drink and What Does it Mean?" Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 21:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Guess I've got it soft. I'm learning how to draw the pelvic bones right now.  Pretty interesting. --Kels 22:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Damnation, I can't draw that well! --Kels 22:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously I won't be cramming now, but when I do enter college I will probably end up with biology (and possibly several sub-fields), ecology, architecture, drafting, and physics. -- 22:12, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cramming is a bad thing, really. We all end up doing it, of course, but it's better to at least try to get this stuff down as you go along, and review a lot.  If you, say, go look at resources for each of those topics as they interest you now, it'll help you a lot when the time comes to study them formally.  In addition to the normal high school requirements, of course. --Kels 22:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I never did it, because my notes were illegible and because by the time the exams rolled round I'd lost most of them anyway. If only laptops had been cheap back then. Never went to lectures, barely did my dissertation, got a 2:1 and got out. I suppose if I'd actually studied I could have got a first, but in what way would that have been worth it? -- 03:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hard work often pays off over time. Lazyness always pays off now.   13:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

New "really" wanted pages idea
OK, I've been thinking about this for a while, and now that we have the automatic "nextpollID" function, if we use voting on it, it won't go snafu.

I often find myself, as I'm sure many others do, being inflicted by some awful ad or show on TV or radio and wishing/wondering if we had an article on it. Trouble is, what I usually do is scrawl some incoherent phrase about it on a piece of paper, where nobody else knows about it, and then forget to dig in and see if I can get something started.

So I thought, wouldn't it be nice to have a piece of paper like that on the wiki - a place to say, "hey should we/did we write about X?". The scratchpad would also be a good place for random links, sources, etc. to be added if people find them, and of course discussion.

Sometimes someone might just say, oh, that's covered in article "lots of stupid things like X", so the "sub topic title" could become a redirect. Other times it might be worth a full article, and we'd have a running start with any luck. It would be a great resource for the bored/OCD/ADD/barnstar-addicted among us to find things to write about, or even just do some preliminary research. One advantage it would have over bringing things up here (SB) would be that things would stay there and not get archived, so good ideas wouldn't get lost in the rapid turnover.

I had thought of using voting in the sense of an "up" vote means, "yeah, we should have that" and a "down" vote means, "nah, off-mission, trivial, out-of-date", etc.

If it works, we might all end up with access to each others' scribbled notes and bookmarked loons, and we might even be able to consolidate some of our "to-do" lists I see scattered over peoples' user pages. And if it works, we can replace the (red link) "wanted pages" thing on the RC/WL header with this one, so it would really mean something - they'd be pages we actually want, not a friggin list of randomly script-generated strangeness. (Of course, people could still go on their random redlink-purging forays, but they's go to "special pages" to get to the list).

Proposed title: RationalWiki:Wanted pages

Crude sandbox version: User:Human/sandbox5

So what do ye, who be the mob assembled, think of this? 00:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it. I've thought of doing something like this in the way of a "requested articles" article.  As you know the world is full of bullshit crank ideas and woo, and we're just getting started.  I write on what I know something about.  There is a lot that has come to mind that would be execllent targets for debunking - preferably by an expert on the subject -  but I wouldn't know enough about it to get started, hence the need for a Wanted Pages page.  This vote up or down thing looks like a good idea too so if there are borderline cases some input can be sought before an article is created. Secret Squirrel 00:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Squirrel, you would be my perfect target here. I know you add endless mission-centric commentary here.  But, if you see a target, but are not sure what to say... this would be the place?


 * Wow, I rule at illiteracy! And not signing. 04:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. It might definitely work on the inspiration and motivation because sometimes there's a lot of ideas that are just scattered and people won't go through sandboxes to collate them. 11:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At last I can dump my to-do list on to everybody else! Totnesmartin 14:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll create something later today then for us to see how we want to set it up. And I'll think about the best ways and places to link to it and discuss here before doing it.  19:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, what should I call it? RW:Wanted pages might get confusing for people? 00:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I put it at RationalWiki:To do list. 05:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Birthdays
I started working on this after RA's birthday, but never got around to figuring out the dpl magic required until now. This is basically modelled after a similar feature in phpBB and other forum software. Put on your userpage (xx and yy must be two digits, so use leading zeroes, i.e. 06 and 09 etc.), and the following dpl command will list your name on your birthday:

(note that's not my real birthday, it's just for demonstrating the thing)

Then we can put this on Recent Changes or on the saloon bar (or somewhere else?). What does the mob think? --  Nx / talk 11:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. We can test out the wp:Birthday problem too!  11:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The only birthday problem I have is having to call the fire brigade to put all the candles out. Totnesmartin 14:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I still have yet to actually meet anyone with my birthday. Oh, and I love the name wp:Birthday attack.   14:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At my first school there were two others out of a class of 30 with the same birthday as myself. Of course that fact proves absolutely nothing (unless you're Andy Schlafly). 15:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Given that births tend to happen in two clusters - Late Sept/early Oct, the Christmas babies and April/May, the summer holiday babies - the chances of duplicate birthdays is actually higher than the pure maths would suggest. Silver Sloth 15:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My b'day is early March and according to my father I was conceived at the Festival of Britain. 16:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like - especially the fact that we don't need to mention year :) --PsyGremlinWhut? 15:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I celebrate my birth metrically with a party every 1000 days. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 16:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest we add the birthday feature to the chalkboard. 16:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like that idea.  16:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Livin' large in the last days of Rome
This has to be the most awesome invention not to further the progress of mankind one iota. Please, please let them mass produce this. -- 11:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * USB powered microwave? That's either the greatest hoax ever or the greatest invention ever. Now World of Warcraft players will have even fewer reasons to leave their screens! 12:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Some part of me suspects it isn't real. Magnetron + big arse capacitor to power it equals bigger package than that. However, I want to believe. Please to be a miracle of beans engineering prowess. -- 12:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Having been a fan of USB gadgets for quite a while (USB reading light, personal fan, coffee mug warmer, fridge, vibrating massager, missile launcher) I have had a long-running joke with a colleague about USB gadgets for several years - in particular the USB-powered helicopter (single person). So I would normally have put this down as an April fool joke. If you need toast I guess you could turn off the fan on your CPU heat sink and put the bread on that. 12:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done some research and, although there's Heinz plastered all over the device the Heinz web site is curiously quiet on the subject. Also the Microwave association site quotes as the press office for Heinz Heinz@cowpr.com, err... I don't think so. Silver Sloth 12:45, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, that detail makes it a little bit more believable. The PR company website lists a real microwave development consultancy with whom they allegedly collaborated on the project. If it does actually work, it's an impressive little bit of kit. There's also compelling little details in the photo like the Faraday cage overlaid on the glass front. -- 13:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A standard microwave is, say, 700w
 * So, lets say this one is 100w
 * USB voltage = 5v
 * w = v * a (or is it v = w / a Ed?)
 * So we're drawing ~20A out of a USB port?
 * Once again, I don't think so. Silver Sloth 14:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of bizarrely inefficient cookery techniques: Extra "light" pancakes and eggs and mulled wine in a washing machine. 14:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * SS - First of all you don't cook beans on full power in a microwave - they explode and make a mess all over the inside. So a much lower power machine is required. Also you could cook them for longer with a smaller unit than in a regular MW to compensate for the lower power. (That said I'm still sceptical about them.) Of course $160 seems very expensive when you can get cheap MWOs for about £30 or $40 nowadays.  15:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You have to take them out of the can before you microwave them!  15:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The little blighters explode on their own because of their hard shells. But yes, I knew you were joking when you implied I was some sort of dork. 16:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, in my 850w machine I use the 30% setting for baked beans - 30% of 850w = 255w which is a current drain of 51A at 5v. Realistically there's barely enough power to spin the platters of a hard drive. I want it to be real, I really want it to be real, but the sums don't add up. Silver Sloth 15:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More research - USB 3.0 specification - 5v at 900mA - or 4.5 Watts. To raise 100g of baked beans from room temperature of 20 degrees C to hot (80 degrees C). Lets assume that baked beans have a similar specific heat to water - i.e around 4 joules per gram per degree Kelvin. So we're talking 4 * 100 * 60 joules or 24000 joules or at 4.5 watts, 5333 seconds or about an hour and a half. (Please feel free to check my maths) Or.... walk to the other side of the office where there's a real microwave and heat up a full can of baked beans in 3 mins. Silver Sloth 16:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is good reason to believe that a smaller unit with little empty space is more efficient than a large unit. Also the principle of a microwave is different from conventional thermal heating so it is possible that new design could make use the microwave energy more efficiently. I don't think that a linear extrapolation is appropriate. Anyway, I have emailed the guy from GAMA microwave consultants asking for more info. 16:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, SS' calculation is for a 100% efficient conversion of electrical energy in to heat, and I can't find a flaw in his relentless Earth logic. Either you have to wait a couple of hours for the internal capacitor/battery to charge between pots of beans or it doesn't work. Stupid logic. -- 16:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Come on guys, if we all pray at the same time it might make the beancrowave come true. Have a little faith. 17:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

TA DA!


 * Dear Genghis Khant,


 * The USB port is used for control purposes only. Oven is powered by appropriate sized Lithium-ion batteries, which can be mains supplied and/or recharged. I assure you we have sufficient power to effectively heat small type hand-snack food products.


 * Thanks your concern and interest ... Gordon Andrews

Now we know. 17:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, now that's just cheating. My dreams die! I suppose you could trickle charge the battery from the USB. -- 17:49, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I'm not sure whether want one or not. After all, what with the missile launcher and all I'm running out of USB ports. Thanks for the research, Ghengis. Silver Sloth 17:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts - impractical overpriced geek toy - bring it on!!!! Silver Sloth 18:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Li-ion batteries probably account for the relatively high cost. 18:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

"But the $160 device ... the Beanzawave isn't much cheaper than a conventional microwave." Actually it costs a lot more. And while microwave ovens use lots of power when running, they are very efficient devices. 20:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "The USB port is used for control purposes only" - what, no room on it for an "on/off" button? 20:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't let the beanzowave crush your dreams. They breed impractical and inexplicable USB devices in Hong Kong. 21:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Real science in the style of a creationist website...
http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/quantumzone/balmer.html I always thought that the all-knwoing professor and inquisitive kid stereotype was the preserve of those who wanted to give wrong information. That said, it's dated 1999 when the web was all new and trendy and they did things like this. 10:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Faux News
Check out the two sentence fourth paragraph here. All I can say is - you betcha! 13:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

When Lying Works
This is an interesting article given CP's continuing claims about Obama. Of course in CP's case they're doing it because they really seem to believe it rather than to score political points, but the same result occurs. Rpeh 06:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Political victories CP can celebrate
CP's favourite UK political party, the fascist BNP, has picked up its first country council seat in the local elections in the North West of the country. Ahhh, Lancashire - Hotpot, curry, and racist scum. Luvvly. DogP Marmite Patrol 21:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "If you are in choppy waters you don't change the captain." In other words, anytime we do a rotten job you shouldn't vote for our opposition... 21:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Most BNP voters I've spoken to feel suitably awkward once the party's neo-Nazi core is explained. Follow up with We fought a war against those cunts, a bit of Churchill fighting them on the beaches, and they get this wonderful "Oh, shi..." look in their eyes. Gives me hope for the future. --Robledo 22:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fuck, fuckity, fuck the BNP. I don't think most modern BNP voters are quite aware of their racist roots in the National Front and such, and they fact that it was literally founded by a neo-Nazi. The ones that are aware of this are the 1970s era skinheads. 11:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably due to the excessive publicity they've been given, I reckon. The BNP hardly do any advertising themselves when I can't walk more than a metre on my university campus without running into a poster with "BNP!" emblazened on it, granted it may say "Stop the BNP!" in total but that's usually in the smaller print that you can't see from half a mile away. 21:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Political victories Totnesmartin can celebrate
The Green party won totnes in the county elections, so they're throwing a party tonight. I'll probably be offline until tomorrow. can't imagine I'll score higher than 1 on the McWicked scale, though. Totnesmartin 18:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hang on, the Green party? You do know that there's a considerable overlap between Green and BNP membership and their science positions are total BS, right? If the Greens got power, it would be Snake Oil on the NHS! 11:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The party was notable for its complete lack of seig-heiling skineads, and St Johns wort on the NHS would save me quite a lot. What's your evidence for considerable membership overlap? Totnesmartin 13:32, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The BNP deserve all the badmouthing that they can get, they're a load of scum. I've seen no figures showing a Green/BNP overlap & most greens (not the corduroy wearing treehuggers of course) are much more scientifically literate than the general populace and definitely more so than the BNP members. (St John's wort unfortunately has side effects especially for women and those on prescription drugs. I'd lay off it. Natural ain't necessarily good - have a plate of rhubarb leaf salad.) 16:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, so the overlap thing came from a politics junkie friend of mine who practically came in his pants when the membership list was leaked. Not the most reliable source, I know as I can't exactly give a URL to him ranting in the pub while holding his printed copy of the BNP membership list. I'd also hardly call this scientifically literate, I mean, lumping science sport and culture into one section? That's real commitment to science... They don't shout out their alternative medicine policies on the main page though, they seem content to let it slip in via the backdoor. If you do a search of the site to get some news or look at some quotes from individuals you'll find some less than pro-science policies. 17:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)SJW can' have side effects, but it doesn't for me - the main danger (as with most of these herbal things) is possible interactions with other meds, but I'm not on anything else. Rhubarb leaves? Hmm, we were just talking today about how poisonous they're supposed to be, but someone said they had a rabbit that thrived on them. I'll have to look that up. Totnesmartin 17:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the GP can be less than rational - with political parties it's a matter of which is the least awful, really, and not going in with a blind faith that "they mean well so they're OK" - no party is OK. and i used to argue with a New Age housemate about what "natural" meant, which he was very woolly on. Totnesmartin 17:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately you are right. You have to go with damage limitation when it comes to elections and choosing a party to vote for. And don't start on what people consider "natural", that's a useless definition at the best of times. 17:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Article about me at RWW
Seeing our article about RWW in the recent changes led me to go there and browse their recent changes for a while. After finding absolutely nothing interesting, I had the thought to search to see if I had an article there. Apparently, I do. I noticed, while reading it, that I am listed as "male", and began wondering what I had done or said here to make that RWW editor think that. Any thoughts? Anyone else know of anything creepy or amusing on their RWW pages? OneForLogic 02:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really.... I whined about not having a page, so Human made one for me.... Then I filled out the chart for them... Nothing since. I guess I'm not cool enough to be a major talking point on RWW... Too Bad Jinx wasn't running it, I'd have a 600 line article with every other word a profanity.  03:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, RWW is lame. 04:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Look at the links on your bloody userpage OFL, youll figure it out. GuyIncognito 04:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Your real name (as per your blog) doesn't sound very female. 05:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

True. I'd gotten so used to no one actually caring that I forgot I still had a link to that. OneForLogic 14:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In it's current form RWW is our kindergarten - it gives somewhere for the children to play whilst the adults relax in the grown up world. Heaven help up if the feud of the drama princesses were to spill over into RW. Silver Sloth 08:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * While RWW may not be the brightest, most expensive or most desired jewel in our wiki-crown of overflowing joy, it still has interesting history (i.e. TK etc) that should be preserved. Perhaps a removal of material from there to here? Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 09:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Then what does that make RWWW?!? 10:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Recursive. --Kels 14:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I too hinted at getting a RationalWikiWiki article. A certain Resistor of a certain Christian based encyclopedia wrote it. I'm boring though, so there's not a lot to me on it. 18:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ho ho ho SuperJosh. Boring is such an ugly word. Lets just say your mind-numbingly tedious. Ace McWickedDisco Jesus 20:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure CUR will get round to creating pages for us all one day. Although somebody will have to let me know if they get round to mine, don't visit RWW anymore - 2 entries on the recent changes for a day sort of puts one off. --PsyGremlinWhut? 12:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

How to fuck with the BNP
This little site has an idea... Totnesmartin 17:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a small Internet--I just started reading the Freakangels webcomic last week. So far, I like it. (And I like the idea, too.  Alas, as a pasty white guy in the USA, I can't really contribute.) --Gulik 17:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have the urge to don a kippah and affect a hammy yiddish accent. -- 21:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A hammy Yiddish accent? Oy, did you pick the wrong metaphor! Totnesmartin 22:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gulik. I read the whole archive and added Freakangels to my RSS.  Seriously good stuff there, but then it's Warren Ellis so what do you expect? --Kels 00:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I need a laugh
CP is really dull for right now, nothing is happening. All socks to assemble and troll for some funny shit plz. I need a laugh. DogP Marmite Patrol
 * I've just given up trolling now. I was always terrible at it. 19:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Go to www.Christiananswers.net, that's always full of lulz. Be sure to yet the movie reviews and look up your favorite flicks.  20:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately my home IP was a victim of a rangeblock before I even joined CP so I can only troll from work or I'd be right there. Rpeh 21:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I came across this book...
It's GREAT! The Religious Case Against Belief by James P. Carse (2008). Read it and put CP/fundie loon of choice into the picture. That's a good read once you know a fundy loon or two (don't tell me you can't find any in CP/FSTDT/YEC Sites). (the descriptions fits so perfectly that I found it really fun, although I would expect something of this caliber from a professor of Religious Studies Program). Highly recommended if you ran out of things to do. For more info see here  00:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Holocaust Museum shooting
Apparently, the supremacist asshole who shot a security guard today at the Washington D.C. Holocaust Museum had a Wikipedia account. They've locked it down pretty tight due to vandalism. 20:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Account blocked for being a murderer. 21:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't see that everyday. I suspect he won't be using the account anymore anyway.   21:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. I wonder if they have a reliable source for that?  Doesn't he have to be tried first?  23:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If he doesn't die first, I suppose so. He didn't have an extensive edit history, but one was exactly one month ago.   00:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And, of course, CP has not mentioned it yet on their main page news. Didn't see that one coming!   00:36, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A rather odd change. Adds his user sig to the article and points out the subject's spouse was an orthodox jew. Crundy 08:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The sig was a java scrap typo from the edit box, I'd guess. That's why I killed that feature on my faves ages ago.  08:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) There's a good blog post on the left wing/right wing debate about this guy here. Additionally, the clip from Fox News is brilliant. I wonder how Andy would react to being told by his beloved Fox that he is wrong and dangerous? Rpeh 07:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's good. Totnesmartin 07:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe this is even controversial
I haven't seen this elsewhere on the site but I thought the non-Brits here would be interested. Our highest court has just made a landmark decision that people have the right to know what the charges against them are.

Regardless of the guilt or innocence of these people, I think we can all agree that they should at least be able to defend themselves against the charges?

Yet again, I find myself supporting the unelected, unrepresentative, elderly High Court in their fight to haul in the Big Brother tendencies of our elected government. It's a shitty situation to be in. Rpeh 21:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been an odd stream of political life here for as long as i can remember - unelected judges and lords defending human rights against showboating/tabloid-kowtowing governments. Totnesmartin 23:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I quite like the Lords. They're there to stop the government doing crazy stuff and so far they do it quite well. Imagine the state the UK would be in if it wasn't for them blocking everything and the constant threat of the Queen actually growing a pair and dissolving the House of Commons at a moments notice. :p 09:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. Back when I was involved in politics I met both Nancy Seear and Conrad Russell, who were two of the most intelligent and erudite people I ever encountered. Rpeh 10:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC) (when I name-drop, I drop the names of lords and ladies!)
 * Yes, we need a second house but: two words: Mandleson, Archer!! 15:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just kinks that need ironing out of an otherwise perfect system. :P That and parties. If it wasn't for the party system, we'd be sorted. 17:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In the UK the second chamber has been a important moderating influence over the commons. OK, historically it was dominated by the conservative landed aristocracy but post-war reforms meant that it couldn't defeat Government policy indefinitely. Because of the UK's first past the post electoral system, political parties could win a large commons majority with less than half the votes cast. New governments with a large majority feel that they have a mandate to sweep through radical changes which may later be regretted. The Lords was able to slow the process down so that any radical changes had to be well though through. I dislike the present system as there is far too much political patronage. We need an elected second chamber which should not be subject to the same electoral cycle as the commons otherwise one party could come to dominate both chambers just because of a fickle electorate being swayed by short-term events. I'd like to see something like a quarter or third of the seats being up for election at two year intervals and no bishops, political appointees or hereditary lordships getting automatic seats. Also proportional representation of some form is a must as far as I'm concerned.  17:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

By necessity, by proclivity, and by delight, we all quote. — Ralph Waldo Emerson
So I have an offer you can't refuse, I'm gonna start a one-man crusade for the liberal use of quotes in RW article headers, and you're gonna like them as much as I do...

...right? 21:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"It's Coraline, not Caroline. Coraline," said Coraline
Totally unrelated, but today's XKCD just made me snort coffee through my nose. --PsyGremlinWhut? 13:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Random obervation in town today
Today I was passing by a $cientology church/store today and noticed that you have to pass through a Bank of America ATM vestibule to get to the lobby. How fitting and convenient! Corry
 * Coincedentally, ATM's are also featured at the entrances of most casinos.  00:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Casinos get you twice with ATMs - they charge an arm and a leg for giving you the cash and then take it all back off you on the tables. (see picture) 17:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, unlike casinos (at least in the US) $cientology stores aren't required to prominently post hotline numbers if you get in too deep. Corry 01:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure they do. Unfortunately, it's the Sea Org's hotline number. --Gulik 06:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * AHAHAHAHAHA! Good one, Gulik! The Foxhole Atheist 13:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

What do you call....
The category of things that putatively use vibrations to tighten muscles, like this thingy? I know the noun "vibrator" is taken for something else. Perhaps someone can put that up as something on the todo list. 01:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Body sculpting woo"? --Kels 01:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Article found. I still need the name of the category of vibrating thingy though.   01:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I figure weight loss devices/pills/schemes and bodybuilding stuff would all fit together. Not sure about vibratory devices. --Kels 01:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The vibrating thingy is exactly that and nothing more. It's a vibrating thingy. As far as a category, I would call it a "massager" or a "massaging device". The concept is no different from those Sears Excercise Belt Machines sold back in the 40's-60's, if you ask me. The Foxhole Atheist 02:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... and the first "vibrators" as "sex toys" were sold as "Swedish massagers" - hand held thingies that were sold to "tone muscles" or whatever. But everyone knew better.  Or at least, all the girls who tried to, um, "tone" their lower tummy regions.  05:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, when you said vibrating thingy I thought you meant those vibrating plates that you do exercises on, apparently they actually do work. But these are just expensive (and probably uncomortable) massagers. 14:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Scenario
Someone in the NJ area looks at the SES application, gets Andy's address. War drive the immediate neighborhood. Get on someone's network. Post inflammatory comments on CP, acquire TK rangeblock, getting Andy blocked through collateral damage. Possible? Funny? Societal value? DogP Marmite Patrol 01:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * IIRC SES application is not released (and the authorities won't confirm or deny the existence thereof) until they are approved or denied (So until the authority has the him listed(approved) we probably won't get the address). I also don't think Andy will get hit by the rangeblock as collateral damage (he can simply unblocks himself/bypass block), but all of his homeschooling acolytes(who have no admin rights) will though. it will be fun to watch how Andy manually unblocks each of his students in the midst of drive-by wandalisms (better if someone do it through the wireless internet used by some of his students -- even more fun).  01:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lame. Unethical, possibly illegal.  Creepy/Stalker-ish.  TP-ing Andy's trees would be funnier.  And his address is readily available via Google.--WJThomas 01:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can drive to NJ, but I have a Wrangler, so TP storage space is low... Unless I use my hitch platform, then it's quite hefty. As long as we have a place to safely store it, I can pull the top and roll it up. Max capacity: 3 throwers and me driving. NOBODY drives the Jeep if it isn't ME. The Foxhole Atheist 02:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, you can find Andy's home address on Google with a little searching. --Gulik 06:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why don't you just launch a 'protest' in front of his home? MarcusCicero 14:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad idea. Proceede status = NO. 14:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I hit the evangelical jackpot...
I got my Ray Comfort books today, and not only is "You Can Lead an Atheist..." personally autographed, but Ray included a CD of not one, but two sermons: Hell's Best Kept Secret and True & False Conversion.

Boy, do I have my refutation work cut out for me or what? The Foxhole Atheist 02:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is what I want to know: how many of these books aren't personally autographed?  02:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He autographs them if you ask him too. A scan of mine is at our article.  I didn't get no stinkin' CDs though!  Waaaahhhhh!  02:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't ask him for one, but I feel like a part of web history with the autograph of the "Bananaman" himself! The Foxhole Atheist 02:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just looked at yours, Human, and you only got his name. I got: "Justin, Thank you for requesting this. I have also enclosed a CD. Let me know what you think. Best wishes, Ray" The Foxhole Atheist 02:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, man, that truly is the jackpot. I bow down before your achievement! 02:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * W00T! Street cred! AND a kowtow from Human! I feel special! The wife is already nagging me to be delicate with Ray. THERE'S some humility for ya... The Foxhole Atheist 02:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hehe, well, I sort of collect this kind of stuff, and your score totally pwned. I only wish Ray had written "To Huw, with all my love, kiss my ass, Ray." 05:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I'm very happy for you both!!! "one@one". When I sent away for it I got "Sorry there's no cash left" - or something of that nature. Although the site says that they received a donation to make the "work" available internationally, I wonder if it's a lie and they really only send to the US?--Bobbing up 13:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)?
 * Enjoy the read. I hope you get further through it than I did. 14:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is unlikely because, as I said in my post, they told me they had no money left and couldn't sent it to me.--Bobbing up 15:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You can download the Hell's Best Kept Secret Powerpoint from his web site. I looked through it but still seems to be a secret to me. The thing is just a random assortment of Biblical quotations thrown in a blender. 18:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm listening to it in my Jeep as I get about my day. I'm on track six already, but I still have no idea just what Hell's secret is. It is kind of refreshing to hear Ray say that the majority of Evangelicals are fucked up because they preach the wrong message trying to get converts, but his logic is still pretty flawed on a lot of things. If you already believed, this might deepen your conviction, but I am having a rough go at how it's to convert atheists... The Foxhole Atheist 18:39, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * it' often struck me that these people have no idea how to reach out to non-christians. Their basic assumption is that we haven't ever read the bible; another is that atheists "reject god" - no, atheists don't believe there is a god, ergo there's nothing to reject. But the fundies can't break out of their own mindset - and if they could, they probabaly wouldn't be fundies. Totnesmartin 19:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Worms 2...
I've been playing my old Demo version of Worms 2 on my PC in the last few days. You can have online play aswell with the demo... anyone else have it? Probably not, but I'm now incredibly bored, as recent signs have indicated, and thus need something to occupy my time. 17:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Great game, I haven't played that in a long, long time. But you aren't the only one who has it!--PitchBlackMind 18:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I only have the demo version, mais oui, it's so addictive! 18:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely. It's one of those games that is exceedingly simple, but never really gets old. I spent countless hours in my youth playing the original Worms on Genesis.--PitchBlackMind 19:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am addicted to Worms Mayhem, the 3-D worms game :D 21:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Me and a friend brought a couple of copies of the worms compendium pack a couple of years ago and played a lot of network games of worms armageddon against each other. I still have my copy around here somewhere. -- 21:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks to this topic I dug out my worms CD box and found amongst the worms CDs I also had a photo CD of our trip to Goa in it. I didn't think I still had copies of those pictures, huzzah! Who said RW isn't useful? -- 22:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Birds and dinosaurs......again
Well, ScienceDaily just had an article that "raises doubts on the dinosaur-bird connection". Conservapedia and the other creationist nutjobs don't seem to have gotten a wiff of this yet, but they are sure to use this to advance their claim. I read the paper, which can be found at this link if anyone is interested.

First off, this article (Not the paper) doesn't make any sense at all. Birds don't breathe in the same way as fish either, so are we to conclude they're not vertebrates? The article doesn't make sense; it's tossing all the correlatives from osteology, ignoring all the other evidence of convergent or paraphyletic features, as well as all the other anatomically similar features in both maniraptoran dinosaurs and crown-group birds. Basically, the authors of the paper determined why gastralia (ie. dermal bones found in the interior of the body cavity of some reptiles and amphibians) were retained in theropods, and how they could be lost in birds without loss of lung function. I really am wondering how this stuff (ie., the article from ScienceDaily, not the journal paper) gets past peer review. It's a dishonest tactic to imply in press releases and interviews that a peer reviewed paper supports a conclusion which it doesn't &mdash; especially because we know full well that most people won't read the paper. This kind of stunt is really damaging to science. I could go into further deal about the mechanics of all this, but most would find it confusing I suppose. So, if you want me to do a more detailed report of this, just ask. I just can't get over that this adds fuel to the fire for creationists to add *support* to their arguments, even when the actual paper does no such thing, and more study (much more) must be done before this sort of conclusion is actually published in a scientific journal. Just my rant :P -- Beishanlong  grandis 19:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can see the response from here - "there are doubts that birds and dinosaurs had a common origin, therefore evolution is false." I'll be extremely surprised if they don't trot out that old crap again. Totnesmartin 21:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you know what, tough guy? (This may be the gin talking...) There are doubts that gods have ahd a comminon origin. Therefore religion is fucking false. Alright? Yeah, I said it. So fucking what? You wanna go? Meet me outside. For more drinks. The Foxhole Atheist 03:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course most people won't read the paper. It requires people to pay for a 24-hour access of it.  Well, unless you are in one of the University libraries and you manage to fetch a hard copy/electromic copy through the university's subscription of the journal.  But then again, how damaging the stunt is would depend on how many people read the nonsense article.   22:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very true. But still, the fact that the article on the paper mentions something that paper, if anything, vaguely eludes too, is not science and bad reporting. Someone will find it, think about how their is a *huge* divide in the scientific community about it, and the creationists are all giddy. -- Beishanlong  grandis 23:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Why do Jstor etc charge to let people read stuff? I thought scientific knowledge was in the public domain. Totnesmartin 08:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * For one, journal articles cost money to print, that, and limited number of suscribers really forces them to charge for subscriptions. They have to make up the money some way. As for Jstor, idk, I prefer open access journals; PLoS ONE. -- Beishanlong  grandis 19:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's essentially cost of distribution which must be recouped, which still applies on the web. One side note, though, for those with access, most decent colleges/universities not only have massive stacks of physical journals, but they also subscribe to the likes of jstor, so you can access it from their library computers (and probably from their whole intranet).  19:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * it really bugged me when writing biology articles on WP that I couldn't cite papers because they were on subscription sites (a no-no on WP). Totnesmartin 23:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And just like clockwork..... Of course, if they had actually read the article and not the story about the article, they would know that is false. UPDATE I created a WIGo on it HERE. --  Beishanlong  grandis 15:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Safari 4
I updated from the beta yesterday, and they moved the tab bar back to the old position! I loved them at the top of the window, and now it's gone. 17:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At least now it doesn't completely look like a Chrome ripoff. On Windows, the top tabbar makes sense, because when you maximize a window it will be along the top of the screen (see wp:Fitts's law), but on Mac it doesn't, because the menu is above it. -- Nx  / talk 17:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * When Google port Chrome to the Mac (or Linux), I will stop ignoring it. 17:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I really ought to try some of these browsers, or at least try and like Firefox 3. Otherwise I'm going to be firefox 2 'til I die. -- 19:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I became a FF3 convert. I like the extensions. Frinstance I've just downloaded the "Home" video that Kels mentioned somewhere and can view it after 14 June as much as I like (if I want to that is). 19:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, pie... it's what's on the menu! 20:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Arizona weather rant
It's got to be one of the only places on Earth where the temperature is 96 degrees and people wonder why it's not hot out. And I suppose it isn't, relative to the usual temperatures recorded at this time of year, but still, it's 96 degrees! 23:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here it's been raining in Colorado almost every day. "Climate change?  What's that?"  :-P --Gulik 23:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey look, it's our neighbor to the north! ...east! I'm not sure if we even technically border each other, the 4 corners set up is confusing. 23:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 96 degrees is a horrifying number to those of us who use real temperature scales Centigrade. --Kels 23:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 96 degrees Centigrade is how hot it's SUPPOSED to be in Arizona this time of year. :) --Gulik 23:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * CREEPING SOCIALISM! Anyways, Fahrenheit is more accurate without going into decimal points, so nyaa! I don't see the point of being only half communist anyways. Either be a real American and use Fahrenheit or join the Axis of Evil and use Kelvin. 23:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I dunno if I'd feel comfortable using a temperature scale based around how cold some guy's ass got in mid-February. --Kels 00:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, Kelvin really is a weird temperature scale. ;) 00:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Centigrade is like... so 1960s. I believe they use Celsius nowadays. 00:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It finally clicked where I'd seen that 'G' image next to your name before! Thought it looked familiar. 00:29, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Citing oneself
Here is a question, I would just like to toss out there, what do you guys think about writing articles that cite work that the author of the article has published? Curious if it would be frowned upon or not. I have been mulling over some ideas for articles, the central thesis of which relies on relatively novel ideas that I have had, so the primary published material out there has my name on it. tmtoulouse 19:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * you could add a self-promtion warning a la WIGO blog, but it'd look strange on mainspace. Maybe put it on the article's talkpage and we can thrash out a collaborative effort to save your blushes? Totnesmartin 19:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You're one of only a few people who might actually do that on this sight, so as long as nobody objects, I don't see why not. It's not like it's going to happen on every other article.   19:30, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as the "relies on relatively novel ideas that I have had" I'd like to think we have a lot of that. I see no reason not to cite something you authored, it's a wiki anyway so you won't be the sole author of the article here.  20:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it depends on how you cite it. If you use it as "proof" of something it may be considered dodgy but if you reference it "as I have argued elsewhere" then it should be acceptable. 21:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't even think you need to go that far, as long as the source is something reputable, like a peer-reviewed journal, normal citations are fine. A blog or some other source is a whole other argument.   21:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree there is plenty of good novel ideas that have emerged, I want to take some of the work I have been doing and extend it into the direction of "why do people believe stupid things." To do that I have to establish that the general paradigm I am working with in the neural models, and chemicals do certain things. For that I just want to source work I have published. Based on the feedback here I will probably proceed with it and people can see how it works in practice and go from there. tmtoulouse 21:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

(EC) Are we talking about RW articles or real life academia? If it's RW, there's no issue, since you wouldn't own either article, regardless of being the primary author; if people disagree with the argument & it's citations, they'd take it up on the talk page &/or take the article to pieces. If it's real world articles, it depends how you're citing your own work, as Ghengis says. Make it clear that you're continuing a line of thought you've already proposed in previous work, rather than drawing on your own work as evidence to bolster an argument. 21:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Purely related to RW, its a grey area in most fields, and a line I have been walking in other avenues. Was curious what the response would be here though, since it is not something that was ever established in our editorial policy. tmtoulouse 21:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * On wiki one doesn't nomally "cite" other articles, just link to them. 22:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I guess I'm already guilty of this. [[image:ashamed.gif]]  (see atheist fundamentalism, linking to secular religions).   22:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He means writing an RW article that uses as some sort of citation a paper he had published in the real world. Heck, I think I've ELd to one or two things I wrote, but not to support anything, just as something "fun" to read.  Anyway, if the paper tmt wrote was peer-reveiwed, it's a citable as anything else, doesn't matter if he's the one doing the citing.  00:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

As long as the words site, sight, and cite are not used as interchangeably as they are in this section, all will be well. DogP Marmite Patrol 21:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I notice only one homonym misuse, which isn't bad for a tmtoulouse intercourse, and that was made by an editor who counts for nought. 21:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You have neural models for making stupid decisions? If only we could isolate a stupid receptor, maybe we could design an anti-stupid monoclonal antibody that crosses the blood-brain barrier.  For their own good, the Discovery Institute would infiltrate the FDA to keep it from getting approved, though.  Corry 21:10, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Thunderfoot
I really like this guy for his anti-creationist U-tube videos (and his humiliation of Venomfang). However, I have only just caught up with his |Sarah Palin bashing and it made my evening. 19:12, 13 June 2009 (UTC)]
 * I watched all of his videos a while back, but stopped when his videos started being more about yelling at people for their debasement of science than actually debunking them. I also buried my palm deep into my face when he said that gravity was unnecessary for life as we know it. Given his own habit of nitpicking over small and relatively insignificant errors in creationist's arguments, I would have expected him to have noticed such a stupid one in his. 08:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ozmoroid is another good jewtuber. His style is less confrontational and more classy methinks, but Thunderfoot's cool too. And then there's Pat Condell... 19:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard of Ozmoroid, I must look him(?) up. Yes, Pat's another good rationalist but my point was really just to highlight the Palin vid. 20:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I wish I could watch it, but... I'd have to tie myself to a chair. I couldn't handle the Palin-ness of it all. It hurts, it hurts. :) 20:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Do it! It's for your own good, I believe she is in line to run again in 2012 and people must know what a stoopid moose she is. 20:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe they'll remake The Palin Presidency?  DogP Marmite Patrol 21:07, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

If Palin gets the nomination in 2012 that would be a wonderful thing. The republicans would just further alienate themselves from mainstream Americans. Maybe a liberal party could take its place! 21:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a mistake to treat Palin as some lightweight idiot - remember, you're talking about someone who reads all the newspapers every day.  That's quite a feat.   DogP Marmite Patrol 22:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How long would it take the US to recover from a Palin presidency? I guess she'd set the country back a hundred years or more. 22:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the Dems would still control congress long enough to keep her from mandating nationwide wiretaps or something equally ridiculous yet entirely plausible. 25 years, maybe? 23:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Genghis, "recover" is probably not the best word. Frankly, I think she will screw up the country so much it'll be beyond all repairs by the time she finish amusing herself with the presidency.  23:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Cheney/Palin in 2012: Let's scare the hell out of everybody!" --Gulik 23:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm still holding out for Palin/Bachmann. 22:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Either of the above pairings would be fantastic - either would represent the end of Republican politics for a generation.  'm hoping for Palin/Romney myself.   Or maybe Palin/Huckabee?   All good.  DogP Marmite Patrol 23:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Can this be true?
Could my American friends tell me if this article from the guardian paints a fair picture? It seems to suggest that the right in the USA is getting very aggressive.--Bobbing up 13:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)--Bobbing up 13:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's more that, in a time of crisis, people get pushed to the fringes. There's always stuff like this going on; while there's a bit more now, I wouldn't buy in to it too much.Umlaut 14:01, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand that gun and ammo sales are up this year and gun-makers are doing well in spite of (because of?) the recession. 14:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Way up, since the election. Obama is all the far-right's worst fears come true.  At least under Bush, they could feel that things were moving in the right direction, but under Obama they may feel the need to take action.  There's gotta be a heavy emotional whiplash--we've gone from an unpopular, white Christian conservative to an adored socialist/fascist Muslim Negro.  You can see why a sense of desperation might take hold, with a nothing-to-lose-now attitude.--WJThomas 15:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Homeland Security warned us of the chance for right-wing extremism a while back, and the right just laughed it off. 00:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Science is pretty!
If you haven't heard about it yet, the documentary "Home" is available for free on YouTube until June 14th. Although I expect it'll probably pop up elsewhere. I'm only about 15 minutes in, and it's gorgeous. An environmental, scientific bent to the narration, of course, if a bit prettied up in spots ("Trees are the perfect representation of living sculpture", etc.). Worth watching if you've got an hour and a half sometime over the next couple of days. --Kels 22:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My eyes hurt. I am 15 minutes in, and it looks too much like one of those real or fake challenges by 3D modelling softwares.   23:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It gets a lot easier shortly after, once it leaves geographical features and starts focusing on people and animals. Very heavy global warming message for most of it, as you might expect, but the visuals are amazing. Music is pretty good, too. --Kels 00:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What surprises me is that there is signal noise on the narrator's microphone. That makes me feel a tad better about my home recordings. Thanks for the heads-up, Kels! 01:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's embarrassing. Microphone feeds should be clean, no excuses.  01:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I never even noticed. Maybe you guys are more audiophiles than me?  I dunno. --Kels 16:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I just hooked up my laptop to my very nice monitor (speaker kind) so little things stand out a lot more. Hilary Hahn's interpretation of Bach's Ciaconna in his Partita in D minor has never sounded so heavenly. Unfortunately I only have one monitor at the moment so I can only hear either left or right mono. Definitely kills the Queen. 18:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've downloaded it for later viewing. It gave me an odd sense of déja vu but I remembered my copy of The New Earth from Above: 365 Days which is by the same guy. It's all very beautifully shot but is a bit heavy handed on the preachiness. I prefer David Attenborough's approach but it beats a Ray Comfort video any day of the week. 20:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I rather like the abrupt turn at the end, though. After leading you up to the pinnacle of "everything sucks, we're all gonna die", the last 15 minutes turns on the phrase "It's too late to be a pessimist" and starts into how things are changing and a lot of us are headed in the right direction.  Although just before that, I almost turned it off for how insanely preachy it was getting. --Kels 13:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

A thought
Couldn't we preserve talk pages of deleted pages by lumping them together in a page and deleting the originals? There must be over a hundred talk pages with no corresponding article, and my inner OCD sufferer twitches at the thought. 10:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't they fine where they are? Not hurting anything, and they serve as markers in case re-creation comes up.  It might make sense to have a category for them, though?  20:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad idea. The resulting page would be a mess, and possibly a bit too large, and it would break difflinks and hide the history from public view. -- Nx  / talk 20:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There's already a category. Totnesmartin 11:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Not quite jerboas, but...
Nom nom nom nom nom nom nom! EddyP 10:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

SCIgen
SCIgen. Just wondering if anyone fancies trying to get published in the Answers Research Journal? (See also New Scientist here) 15:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I now have a small bookshelf of reseach papers (A Case for Access Points, Deconstructing Redundancy, Decoupling 802.11B from DHTs in Compilers, Controlling DNS and the Location-Identity Split & Decoupling Active Networks from Hash Tables in Erasure Coding) by Trent M. Toulouse, Ace McWicked, Susan G. Toast and Genghis Khant. Should be a valuable resource if I decide to go back to uni. They're rather like our Schlafly/Kendoll quote generators on steroids. I particularly like the references where individual names are randomly scattered amongst the papers. 16:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Journal of Rational Wiki? :p 10:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Pretty Ace is Pretty Sexy.
Ace is pretty sexy. Ace wants to add nude pictures of himself to the mainpage. Thoughts? Ace McWickedi9 01:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nate thinks Ace needs to get help. Nate is scared--Nate River 01:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it as large as I have heard? Might scare the teenagers?  04:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything that will freak out 🇰🇪 sounds good to me. Rpeh 07:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll send you ointment for your arse boils and then you can upload yo'self. 13:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha! The things I miss while I'm out sick. Send me the photos, I'll check 'em out and let you know if they are mainpage worthy, lol. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 06:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Away
I am off to a conference in Montreal and will have limited to know computer access. Server has been up for 14 straight days, and with the new power backup that should continue. If something terrible happens, it will not be until Saturday that I can address it. tmtoulouse 04:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hell, even TK sleeps every three days. God Herself rested after six!  What are you trying to do mon, she canna take no moar power cap'n!  I'm an engineer, not a magician!  05:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a great time! We'll try not to break the server, lol. :p <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 05:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

complain,complain..
I've been ill. :-( I have never heard of anyone getting the flu in June. The weather is warm, people are swimming, yet I've been stuck at home for the past week and a half with a fever, chills, pains, aches, sore throat, and more. Missed you all, was worried that Ace would find a new chicky while I was gone. :p <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 05:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hope you're better soon. See doctor a lot if you can.  Flu is bad drugs. Make you very ill. Plz to get better and nice to see you around again.  05:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for caring. I was too sick to go to the doctor :p I think I'm getting better now, but wasn't sure for awhile there.. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 06:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No doctor, I help. LOTS of fluids.  REST.  Keep 911 phone at side or loved one paying attention.  Keep track of fever.  Get well soon...  06:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Americans More Conservative than Liberal Shock
I imagine it won't be long before we see this on CP: http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/polltracker/2009/06/a-plurality-of-americans-descr.html

I'm sure CP will trumpet the fact that Conservatives are still twice as numerous as Liberals, but I'd say the more important statistic is that both ideologies have gone up 4% over the period (since 1992) whilst moderates have dropped 8%. Proof that US politics is becoming increasingly polarised?

In other news, "Bears increasingly shit in the woods" and "Pope 'almost certainly' Catholic" shockers. Rpeh 13:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's so much American Politics is more polarized as more people desire to be part of a group so they claim liberal or conservative as a means of doing so. I find a lot of people who claim a political affiliation really have no idea what it means.  13:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I get the impression for a lot of people, it's tribalism. They pick a party because their parents belonged to it, or whatever, and from then on, it's their Party.  Much like sports teams, they then become very defensive over any apparent deficiencies in Their Side, and ridiculously nitpicky about The Other Side.  --Gulik 19:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Itnertesnig eimal aobut wrods
I recieved this via the usual kind of circular email. The stuff about "phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid" is probably bollocks (therefore if someone knows the real reason, please share). But this kind of thing amuses me, it's like when you can make people miscount the number of "f"s in a sentence because they read "of" as "ov" and miss them completely.


 * i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it

Apologies to anyone who's first language isn't English as it probably won't work as well for you. 17:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, this is a new version of an old meme. It's not really true, the key is that the "damage" to the words in not random, it's rigged to still be "readable".  19:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I's got zees email several times. It's not as annoying as the "email this or your mum dies" stuff though. 19:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Toast did this a month or so ago, (but I'll be damned if I can find it now). At the time I said pretty much the same as Human said above. 19:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am curious to hear what you mean by "rigged"? The letters are not random, as it says, it uses anchor points of the first and last letter. Beyond that it seems reasonable to me that the actual order of the letters isn't important. This fits well into several theories for word recognition, plenty of research has examined this issue. tmtoulouse 20:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * By "rigged" I mean it's not random. The alterations are carefully chosen to look like a random mess, but to still be readable. The 1st/last rule also prevents 3 and under letter words from being garbled, which helps a lot.  By the way, "rscheearch" can't be turned back into a real word.  00:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is not to say that the basic concept is not true, only that the "woo" factor is high for me. Can anyone build or find a widget that applies this rule to user-entered text?  00:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers guys. I can believe the "rigged" part (and the whole spam aspect of it being the power of the mind that only a certain number of people can do is definitely woo woo), if you look at "phaonmneal", it probably wouldn't work without the "ph" at the beginning. "Cmabrigde" is another obvious one as it's scrambled "cam" and "bridge" separately. And if you compare "aulaclty" with "actually", you find that it's the same shape, with the half height letters and full height letters alling on the same place (which makes me wonder if it won't work in other font faces or in CAPS LOCK). So, even if it was rigged, it has to be due to reading the word as a whole rather than individual letters. 10:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I just rattled off a quick program to randomise a piece of text and here are a couple of rearrangements of the piece from above.
 * i cundolt belevie taht I could auactlly untseandrd what I was riendag. The phnmeaoanl poewr of the hmuan mind, aconrcidg to a rhacsecreh at Cmarbidge Uinirvesty, it dnose't matetr in waht oredr the lerttes in a word are the olny iamnroptt tihng is that the fisrt and lsat letter be in the rhigt place. The rest can be a toatl mess and you can sitll raed it wotuiht a plbeorm. Tihs is beacuse the hmaun mind does not read evrey lteter by ilstef, but the word as a wlohe. Anizamg huh yeah and I aylwas thhuogt silelnpg was irmanoptt! if you can read this forwrad it


 * i cudonlt bliveee taht I culod atlcaluy unsntderad waht I was rdaineg. The pahonenmal pewor of the haumn mnid, anircodcg to a rcacsehreh at Cbigrmade Uiertivnsy, it deons't mtater in waht oedrr the ltretes in a word are the only inraomtpt tnihg is taht the frist and last lteter be in the rhigt plcae. The rset can be a taotl mess and you can slitl read it wotuiht a perbolm. Tihs is bucaese the huamn mnid does not read ervey ltteer by isltef, but the word as a wohle. Amnizag huh yeah and I always tohuhgt slilnepg was iomprnatt! if you can raed this frawrod it

Some words are definitely more difficult to read in these versions but I think what really makes it comprehensible is the profusion of words four letters long and below. There are enough of those to give longer words context even if they aren't quite obvious at first. Compare to


 * Dinnsuitocg crietan selmnigey raodnmeisd cetrsacnmicus retelsud in healivy sweked rsteuls.

Definitely much more difficult to understand Discounting certain seemingly randomised circumstances resulted in heavily skewed results. . Rpeh 12:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've completely lost interest in this issue now. *BANG* 12:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For those of us that (a) are very old and (b) have lived in London in the 60's/70's this is very reminiscent of adds for training as a short hand secretary. 'if u cn rd ths u cd ern...' Silver Sloth 14:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My issue with this meme is not can you read it but would you want to read say, Moby Dick, written in this fashion. There are studies that show that when we read we don't parse out letters in most case but simply scan the tops of words for characteristic patterns. Further we know from discourse analysis that part of what competent listeners do when they listen is to "repair" broken language emitted by the speaker. further our typographical system is highly refined for efficient and mostly unambiguous transmission of information and intent. Why make it less effective by screwing with it? So yeah, the human brain is a wonderful thing but write correctly. 216.54.39.107 17:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the "shape" of the words is definitely a big factor. I had a high school English teacher who was a bit of a maverick, and each week we'd pair up and do ten spelling words.  Which we picked ourselves, and self-graded the results, of course.  Each week there'd be a different theme or concept, and one week what we had to do was draw the shape of the words.  I guess we were supposed to leap to the observation that in some cases you don't need much more than the shape and some context to read them.  The long words example above is a clear indicator of this breaking down - I'm good at anagrams, chase them a lot, and I had no idea what most of those words were.   19:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, if anybody is interested I can post the code. It's C# I'm afraid - I haven't got around to learning Python or PHP and Perl scares the crap out of me. Rpeh 04:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

According to Snopes, this email has been doing the rounds for nearly six years. That it originated from research at Cambridge seems to be a myth, but there's some interesting analysis by a Cambridge academic here.  20:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I keep seeing the word 'meme' (like above) and with all you brainy types here, I guess I am the only one who didn't know the definition. So... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/meme "meme (mem) n.  A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another." ... and.... I still don't know. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page  06:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * and reading a little further, to see if it becomes any clearer to me... "meme /meem/ n. [coined by analogy with `gene', by Richard Dawkins] An idea considered as a replicator, esp. with the connotation that memes parasitize people into propagating them much as viruses do. Used esp. in the phrase `meme complex' denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form an organized belief system, such as a religion. This lexicon is an (epidemiological) vector of the `hacker subculture' meme complex; each entry might be considered a meme. However, `meme' is often misused to mean `meme complex'. Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has superseded biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons." ... oh you have GOT to be kidding me. No comprendo. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 06:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If when I say "Kan we haz artikle" and you get the "joke", you know what a meme is. Memes are also concepts promulgated via pundits, politicians, and the media - for instance, the lovely one that the private sector can everything on Earth and the Moon more efficiently than the public sector.  06:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, will try to wrap my mind around this.. takes a bit longer for me, sometimes. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 06:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A good place to start is Dawkins' The Selfish Gene, where he goes into some detail about it. One example he gives is the song Auld Lang Syne. The chorus contains the words "we'll take a cup of kindness yet, for auld lang syne" but you will almost always hear it sung as "we'll take a cup of kindness yet, for the sake of auld lang syne." Dawkins suggests that somebody filled in those extra words, other people heard them and thought the song sounded better with them, so sang them too, causing others to... you get the idea. In other words, those three words were a mutation in the song that had the quality to survive - just like mutations in genes. Rpeh 06:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly the best book on meme's has to be Susan Blackmore's "The Meme Machine", which builds on Dawkins' work. --PsyGremlinWhut? 10:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion regarding hiding revisions
RevisionDelete has a few extra rights available that are not enabled currently:
 * suppressrevision: the ability to hide a revision from a sysop as well (a user with this right can still see and restore such revisions)
 * suppressionlog: a user with this right can view a log of suppressions (hiding a revision from a sysop). Deleting revisions from non-sysops still goes in the deletion log, and anyone can view it.
 * hideuser: when blocking, a user with this right can hide the user from the block list, user list and block log

Hideuser doesn't seem very useful - we can just rename the offending username, and then hide the rename log entry if necessary. As for the other two we have several options:

Hiding revisions from sysops

 * 1) give suppressrevision to crats
 * 2) give suppressrevision to a different usergroup

There was some talk of keeping oversight and crat rights separated back when we were discussing oversight, so I'm throwing that option in here. -- Nx  / talk 06:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

View suppression log

 * 1) give suppressionlog only to usergroup that can do suppressions
 * 2) give suppressionlog to sysops as well
 * 3) give suppressionlog to everyone

I don't know why the mw devs separated this log. A suppression log entry looks something like this (this is from my wiki, not RW, so this isn't RW's Main Page) : Again, this is only for hiding revisions from sysops. Normal revision deletion goes in the deletion log. -- Nx  / talk 06:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (show/hide) 06:01, 17 June 2009 Nx (Talk | contribs | block) changed revision visibility of Main Page ‎ (hid content, username (applied restrictions to administrators) for 1 revision: test) (Change visibility)


 * I'm in favor of the least "deletion powers" possible, although if I could have deleted that asinine link from talk:wigo cp with one simple action that would have been nice. Btw, it's been how many months since we last needed this, and then it was the first time? (btw, I don't understand most of what you typed ;))  06:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that's not possible, since the entire page gets saved in the database with every edit. We'd have to manually remove the link from every edit to restore those. -- Nx  / talk 06:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think without a doubt make the suppression log visible to all, open government and all of that. I do like the splitting of crats and suppression, if we go down that path we might want to tighten the promotion system. I think the days of Toast gave me crat rights and I cratted Toast when she got a new account are passing us by. 06:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One, that example worked just fine. And keep in mind that our delightful Ace is a crat.  Two, what the heck are we talking about?  I think we have "had" to use revision delete what, three times in two years?  PS I promise not to use revision delete drunk.  Or sober, for that matter, since it didn't take. Without really good instructions, the whole fucking thing is pointless.  06:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We're talking about hiding revisions from sysops, since basically everyone is a sysop. -- Nx  / talk 06:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be in favour of opening the suppression log, but the fact that the devs separated it makes me somewhat wary -- Nx  / talk 06:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This has made slightly disillusioned about WP, you can't see the oversight logs, you can't see the check user logs etc. That is who the software is developed for, WP policy is its main driving force.  06:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Give suppressrevision to 'crats, as they should have proven that they are trustworthy and won't go whitewashing things, and give the ability to view the logs to everyone, as you should be accountable to everyone, not a chosen few. 08:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Spectral Dyson has got it right I think. A sysop is basically a janitor here, and I don't like the idea of someone fairly new to RW being able to censor it if they so chose. Crats have been around longer and we have a better sense of who they are and what they're like. This means of course that in future crat requests should be considered more carefully (I got mine by offering free beer) - which implies a certain formalising of the cratting process. WP:RFA anyone? Anyway, I choose: only crats can suppress, but anyone can see the suppression. Do we have a page for crat abuse? Totnesmartin 07:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my talk page... hehehe 07:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Zicam can cause loss of smell
Well, who woulda thought there could be a problem with unregulated items being sold to people? Interesting comments and some woo taking place here. 15:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Say what?
Why were two of my edits deleted? What's going on? Totnesmartin 22:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To remove the link to TK's mom. Every revision had to be deleted because it contains the full text of the page. -- Nx  / talk 22:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can an IP or regular editor (or sysop even) still see the entire conversation, sans links? 00:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone can view the entire conversation, starting from the first revision that you didn't delete. The diffs for the deleted revisions are hidden, but sysops can see them. -- Nx  / talk 05:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, thanks for the explanation that I didn't understand. Best hope for the future: no asshole posts personal shit like that again so I don't have to stumble through removing it.  07:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Even better: delete them as soon as they're posted, rather than waiting for the comments to heap up. 07:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I still wouldn't know how, if, say, there were two or ten later edits, as in this case when I first came across it. 07:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Bloody weather
So, a tornado touched down about an hour ago about a mile from my house. From the looks of it and from the news reports, there is only minor damage, but scary nonetheless. 01:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Exciting! Lucky devil, nothing exciting going on around here, its just fucking cold. Ace McWickedi9 01:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, exciting indeed. A little too close for comfort though.  And I know all about the cold too.  That's the beauty of living where I do, under the blanket of a range block, that we have every season throughout the year.   02:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was about to discuss the climate where I live then realised that I would know it was time to kill myself, when not content to make "chit-chat" about the weather in the elevator, that I do it on the internet also. Ace McWickedi9 02:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see I started going down the same path there. We'll leave it at the tornado then.   02:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ...is it me or is Ace hinting I should kill myself because of my Arizona weather rant? 02:42, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. But that's just Ace, pay him no never mind.  Unless you really need an excuse to kill yourself.  07:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That'd look good on a gravestone: "Internet made me sad!" 09:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

More Conservative Hypocrisy
So is the Sen. John Ensign who once said of Bill Clinton "He has no credibility left" after the latter admitted to having an extramarital affair the same John Ensign who has just admitted to having an extramarital affair? Rpeh 07:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also the same Senator Ensign who called on Larry Craig to resign after his indiscretions (of course, those were homo indiscretions, which are different than good ol' red-blooded hetero indiscretions). Also the same Senator Ensign who had a rule about never being alone in a car with a woman, so as to resist temptation (guess that didn't work out so well).--WJThomas 10:46, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if Sen. Ensign never deny about it (which never mentioned in the scope of the article), then Ensign is at a higher moral ground than Bill Clinton, albeit not high enough to boast about it, I would assume. It has been another segment of "Do as I say, not as I do."   13:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He never had the chance to deny it. The husband of the woman he was porkin' was about to go public (unless he got some cash).  Can't really claim the moral high ground if you only confess under pain of blackmail.--WJThomas 15:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Moar! The woman involved saw her salary double and her son get a sack of lucre too: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/jun/17/ensign-resigns-gop-leadership-post/ Rpeh 14:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, Conservative Family Values at its finest. --Gulik 16:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

ConservapediaUndergroundResistor
I know several of you here found him annoying, and yes, I'll admit at times he was. But he was also good fun and I will miss his company here. So this Guinness is a drink to his demise memory. Cheers, Arthropleura! 09:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Who? 13:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This geezer that pissed everyone off. He was alright though. 17:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he'll be missed. Barely.  And welcomed when he comes back, as he will.  07:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What happened to CUR? Where did he go? Did I miss something?<font color="blue" face = "Comic Sans MS">RagTop <font color="teal" face = "Comic Sans MS>Gone sailing 07:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He sais he was going to start his own wiki. Look out for A Storehouse of Cheetahs on an internet near you! Rrose selavy 14:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

What is it with conservatives?
They seem to like preaching to the choir, rather than getting their message out there? Just think of Dean with his "invite only" blog and JPratt blocking people who follow his drivel on Twitter, and all the moderated conservative blogs out there. Is it a case that they all have really fragile egos and can't handle criticism well, or that deep down, they know they're wrong and also know they can't defend their positions? --PsyGremlinWhut? 14:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We'll never understand the psychology behind the ones at CP. I don't like generalising negativity to all conservatives though, cuz it plays in to Schlafly's stupid ideas that liberals are always trying to discredit conservatives. I think they believe what they're saying, but they can't stand criticism or defend themselves from it. Just look at some of the stuff Andy's said to real arguments over the years. There's a quote on my userpage where he says "did you know your last edit had 666 letters in it? Godspeed." 15:19, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Could be that their beliefs stem from faith/gut feeling rather than any logical process, so they're unused to having their assumptions questioned. They see questions as a personal attack and (re)act accordingly. Rrose selavy 15:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for any other "Liberals", but I usually am trying to discredit "Conservatives". That's because they're usually WRONG, often about very important stuff. --Gulik 16:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Obama can't be Muslim!
See? No Muslim would do that. --PsyGremlinWhut? 17:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Request Bot Flag for FedhajiBot
Could someone with the appropriate magic powers give User:FedhajiBot a bot flag? This bot will be used to update only subpages of my user page. Thanks. Fedhaji 11:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Totnesmartin done did it. 19:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Gone Baby Gone
Looks like Ed just can't help himself. Whatever shows up in his Netflix queue, he's gotta live blog it. Not that it does him any good, though. --Kels 18:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm thinking of writing a book...
The wife has been nagging at me for some time to become a writer, but I can't imagine that as a livelihood, as it's a bit on the unpredictable side.

Anyway, I stumbled across this today while browsing articles for lulz over at Creation Science Evangelism.

I was reading through each point and ticking off rebuttals in my head (like "Under your feet or naturally decomposed", "It's not completely absent", "No", "Supernovae", "Your question implies that there IS design so an appropriate answer must consider design" etc.) when I got the tickle of an idea.

There's really no copyright on this piece of work. Permission to copy it is right at the bottom. So here I have 20 plus chapters worth of topics and all I have to do is fill in the blanks. I was thinking about enough information to soundly answer these questions or thoroughly rebuke statements, but written so the "common layman" could understand it. I myself am a science generalist and I love point by point rebuttals and side by sides, so I figure that there HAS to be an audience for it.

Any thoughts from the mob as to if this is an overdone idea? Any alternate spin ideas?

The Foxhole Atheist 19:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * An essay here on the Wiki would probably be more to scale. 19:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That was the first thought, but I started thinking about how the "Hovind Theory" covers every single fucking aspect of science and lumps it all under "evolution". I realized that to put the detail in but make it easily understandable would be a feat requiring at least a chapter's worth of writing for each topic. ~10 pages per question * 20 questions = ~200 pages not including table of contents, introduction, summation, index and bibliography. I've never written a book before, so this is all new to me, but that's what I was thinking.


 * As an aside, I'd be willing to post everything on the wiki as it was written anyway. The Foxhole Atheist 20:01, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are going to do anything serious in the way of book-writing, I would recommend the use of LaTeX; it takes care of all the structure for you and lets you concentrate on the content.
 * I would also recommend getting your arm in by formatting one chapter as an essay here and then getting feedback on it; otherwise you would definitely be going off half-cocked. 20:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "A bit on the unpredictable side", heh. I remember someone saying once, "You can work as a freelancer.  Or you can eat.  Whatever you like." --Kels 20:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the LaTeX link, I just realized how pimp it would be to use that for school essays. Pointless, but pimp nonetheless. 21:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And remember, if you are going to write this book for profit, get a publisher before it's done, instead of after. Much easier to sell that way.   21:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, if you want to try to get paid for its publication, don't post it on the web first. And don't put it on a GFDL wiki.  Also also, by the way, modern "print on demand" houses can be a very good way to "self publish".  Best if you have a good proofreader and talent in the house to make a good cover.  23:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

undent

As yet self publishing is hardly viable: average sales <200 (Google it!) Best bet, write a couple of chapters and an outline and send a hard copy (not email or cd) to an agent who handles the kind of book (google author's agents science or whatever). Publishers have a place for unsolicited ms - the bin! 03:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Self-publishing is never "viable", but it worked out ok for Nietzsche - not that he made any money from it. 03:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * All are good ideas and thanks for the input. Making money off of the idea isn't the goal, but if I can, it'd be nice. I am approaching this as a constructive hobby and a way of contributing to "the good fight", since I am so sick and tired of seeing people bastardize the beauty of scientific discovery solely to push an ideological or political (theocratic?) agenda. Ignorance has got to rank at the top of my Major Psychotic Hatreds list. If you don't know, that's one thing. If you don't know but run out and pretend that you know all there is to know contrary to the evidence, then cling to that regardless of what happens from then on out, then that's just fucking stupid. I guess my true aim is to prevent as many people from becoming the latter as I can.
 * My English professor suggested writing a few articles for journals or magazines before submitting any form of manuscript to anyone at all, as it would lend credence to me as an author since I come to the arena with no real credentials except a love of science and a 90% finished Associate's degree. Any suggestions on submission friendly magazines or journals? The Foxhole Atheist 13:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Self publishing can be viable if the book is fiction and does not suck. Put usually as a springboard to getting the attention of real publishers. Like the case of Monster Hunter International which will be in real stores soon (Sorry for the plug but it is a bad ass read). Even though cases like this are the exception, the gems do shine even in the self publishing world.--DylanB 01:02, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Udon
On a recent visit to Wing Yip I purchased some udon different to my usual brand, in so much as they were supplied deficient of a flavour sachet, leaving my taste buds at the mercy of my wild imagination. Tonight, being more than a little squiffy, I decided to prepare said snack with a sauce of my choosing. I do not think it an exaggeration to say that it was, without a shadow of a doubt, the best thing ever in the entire history of mankind, so much so that during the consumption a bit of wee came out. The one problem is that the combination of mild inebreation and immense overexcitement in response to said meal means that I cannot fully recall the ad-hoc recipe. I believe it was thus: Roast a small square of konbu over a low heat to brighten flavour. Remove from pan. Boil a small amount of rice vinegar and saki in the pan until the acrid smell dissipates, then add mirin, soy, a bit of oyster sauce, 2 dried shitake mushrooms and water. Mix well and bubble down for a few minutes. Remove the mushrooms and put them in a bowl with the konbu. Add 5g bonito flakes, take off the heat and leave to infuse for 2-3 minutes. Strain into the bowl with the mushrooms and leave to cool for 10 mintes. Remove the mushrooms and chop. Boil your noodles, strain, and divide into bowls with the mushrooms. Add the sauce to the pan and boil to reduce to a slightly thicker consistency, then pour over the noodles. Serve, and sit with a rather smug grin because of how much you pwn. Crundy 21:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell, I've cooked a three course Sunday dinner quicker than that. And it'd've tasted nice too. 82.23.209.253 22:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we need to start using the recipe namespace again! 22:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't rush a good snack you know. Crundy 22:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I do hope you meant "a bit of weed", otherwise I'm never kissing you again. --PsyGremlinWhut? 14:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh, no. It's an expression, used extensively on the BBC Radio 1 show Scott Mills. When he started playing the "Wonder Years", people would text in saying that they're enjoying the wonder years so much, a bit of wee came out. Speaking of which, have a listen to some of the sound clips, like these ones. Comedy gold! Crundy 22:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, there are still people who listen to radio 1? Who knew? John Peel died and they took the opportunity to axe his time slot and give it over to more dance shite, then they merged the reggae and dancehall show in to the fucking hip hop show, which I can't stand. Now there's nothing good at all on any more. Bastards. -- 21:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Weird...
The Windows version of Firefox running under Wine gets 72% on the acid3 test, while the native Mac version only gets 71% (neither of which is anywhere near Safari's 100%). 18:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was doing ok with this... and then you got to "running'. --PsyGremlinWhut? 18:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you mean you don't understand what Wine is, see here. 18:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am a technological "have not" --PsyGremlinWhut? 18:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a thingie that lets you run Windows programs on other types of computer. 19:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with that? That's the same score I get on a regular Windows OS. 20:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the proper response is "who gives a fuck?" -- 21:03, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing that I don't understand is why the Mac version does worse than the Windows version running on a Mac. 21:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Google Chrime scores OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAND! on the acid3 test, making it the clear choice.  21:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe lynx scores zero, making it the clearer choice for all your curses based browsing needs. -- 21:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Inarguable citations of Conservapedia?
I don't want to put this on the talk page for WIGO, as it does not strictly concern the minute-to-minute events there (and for other reasons). And I also realize that, when it comes to Conservapedia, there's really no such thing as "inarguable". Still, is there any way to get an ostensibly neutral service along the lines of archive.org to make backups (in webpage or image format) of things on Conservapedia (such as editing diffs) in such a way that accusations of forgery can be clearly shown to be false? 71.193.206.116 22:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I do believe there is. Right now I'm in an airport lounge en route for a tropical paradise/malaria-infested hell so don't have access to my normal PC with FireFox but I have a FF extension which I think can upload to the internet archive/wayback machine and possibly somewhere else. I don't know how quick it is, i.e. whether the page is uploaded immediately, but I'll follow up and see if I can remember the name. The only problem I would image is how many copies of a page they would accept for any given day. 09:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Found it. The extension is called CacheIt! and the other place it saves pages is Coral CDN. Sorry I can't elaborate further as flight called. 10:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki blocks access to old versions of pages and diffs with robots.txt, so archive.org and Google cache won't contain diffs, although it's possible to get some deleted pages from there or google cache. Google will delete the cached version after a few days, so it's only useful immediately after a delete of a page that has been there for a while (e.g. we were able to preserve Human's page and talk page after TK deleted it thanks to Google cache). Coral CDN is probably similar to archive.org. -- Nx  / talk 10:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Never thought any of them would actually preserve diffs just the version of a page, maybe successive versions or permanent links? 18:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Old revisions/permalinks are also hidden by robots.txt, but since archive.org takes a snapshot of a website every once in a while, you effectively get some old revisions with it (which were the current revision at the time the snapshot was taken). Google cache doesn't preserve old revisions, and I doubt Coral does, since its purpose is similar (provide an almost current copy of the website when it is not available) -- Nx  / talk 18:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Life Ascending: The Ten Great Inventions of Evolution
Just read a good review of this book (by Nick Lane) in Saturday's Grauniad. It's just been published in hardback. 18:35, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't know if this has been mentioned before
The BBC has an article about a tree that could be the world's oldest, at almost 10,000 years here. --Smg87 21:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I fixed the link, now I go read. 22:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, particularly how the root system seems practically immortal. But if you have an Open Mind it's clearly an Evolutionist Hoax. 22:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the stuff which has roots had not been sinned (yet). Then the argument about the tree can be created with rings already there at date of creation will be presented by the creationists.   23:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is Omphalos hypothesis stuff, which modern-day YECs reject outright as it requires YHVH to be deceptive. 23:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Last Thursdayism was exactly what I was thinking there. Yeah, if you even consider that as a remote possibility, your creation date becomes arbitrary and your deity becomes deceptive. It's not an option unless you like walking into traps like that. 23:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is interesting to note that most of what YECs argue (that there is evidence in favor of a young earth and a big flood a few thousand years ago) could also be used to support a literal interpretation of any pagan mythology with a flood to it. 00:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think aspen groves display a similar morphology - a massive root system, with multiple individual trunks ssprouting from it. Trees are cool...  00:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Bought myself an early birthday present
I just discovered that Hayseed Dixie are playing live in my city, on my birthday. Clearly this is fate. Did I ever mention how much I love Cambridge? -- 23:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmm. Cambridge - love it. 01:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what you could do? Buy me a one day belated birthday present. Yorick 08:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My mate bought me tickets to the see the Killers this Friday! I can't wait! 12:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw the Killers in Feb at the NEC. Fucking awsome show. I'd just been to see the Kings of Leon in December as well :) Crundy 11:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Dunno where to post this
16:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we start an article about it, or perhaps expanding an existing article from it?  16:23, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Link to it at terrorism. 21:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Makes interesting reading. Domestic terrorists will tear America apart long before Al Qaeda does. In both cases, the motivations of such terrorists are political, but their furor is fundie religious in nature. Scary fuckers the lot of them. 21:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added the link as I suggested. 22:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a very interesting article. Obviously it's from a liberal standpoint, but I couldn't agree more with the point 6 part about liberal and conservative "hunting licences." If you just look between RW and CP, you see the genuine anger with some of the Conservapedians at what they perceive as liberal indoctrination and other bullshit, and Andy seems intent on turning everyone conservative with his "Why do people reject conservatism?" essays and other metnal stuff. Whereas on RW - not that there's not hate against Conservapedians here - most users accept anothers religious or political views (within reason) as long as they aren't forced on another. 13:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

sticks head round door, peers dubiously at clientele
Here's a question for ya: If someone screenshots a diff or an edit history page, who owns the copyright? Isn't it just copying someone else's work? You can answer here or on RWW (/pimping RWW) if you like. Rrose selavy 22:14, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/faq.cgi#QID809
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenshot#Copyright_issues
 * Basically, it depends on the licence of the work being shot. As RW is GFDL, it'll be allowed on any site that also displays GFDL. If not, it may be allowable under the minefield of Fair Use, which I think the screenshots of difflinks used on WIGO:CP are possibly covered under. 22:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Insofar as our screenshots contain material from MediaWiki, they can be released under the GFDL; insofar as they contain material from Conservapedia itself, I think that our screenshots of diffs are definitely covered by fair-use, since they are just fragments of pages, the same as quoting someone.
 * Besides, if by some miracle Conservapedia starts bothering us about it, TK will have to go back on that statement he made about our screenshots being fakes. 22:42, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't we making screenshots for criticism purpose? That's fair use as far as takedown notices are concerned.  Distribution... that's a different ball game.   23:23, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that's the point. If you want to spread it around then you're distributing copyrighted information, but so long as you're using it for criticism. And as evidence, as we know diff links get burned - therefore would they come under the same rule that allows you to call fair-use on a dead persons image (as you can't reasonably expect a copyright free version to appear) if the content of the grab disappeares? 23:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys, I'm new at this wiki stuff so that's really helpful. Rrose selavy 12:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well CP has no coherent copyright policy in the first place. It's basically "you are free to use anything unless we don't like it, in which case you can't." Try enforcing that in a court of law.  20:02, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

What the %*&#
What on this bleeding Wiki is going on?! I turn around for a couple of days, and Nx has left, CUR has run for the hills, Reph is miffed about something, and apparently somehting about TK's home was mentioned. What the fuck is going on?! 03:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * NX!!! What happened? 03:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * NX has gone? Ace McWickedi9 03:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No shit. 03:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He should be dragged back. Screaming if necessary. 03:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Some sort of dispute about the privacy policy, I understand. I WIGO'd it over at RWW. 03:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (Attenuated scream)! Ouch.  03:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that its nothing specific that occurred, and not necessarily just wiki stuff. Nx has a pretty busy life as it is, and his help, while greatly appreciated, was a huge time sink for him. He is, as everyone is, welcome to come back at anytime. Or not as he sees fit for his own goals. tmtoulouse 05:02, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, but he picked one hell of a time and way to express it... 07:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I know about the time drain. I am about to do my weekday vanishing trick. I will still run Pibot in the evenings, could someone please let me back in after a week? 05:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Aw, Pi, did you block yourself and retire too? 07:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, he is just taking a four days break 07:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice work, whoever managed to troll these results. Oh, and fuck you, too. 08:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we expect a change in privacy policy during this 4 days due to these guys stop talking aboout it? Ouch.   13:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Forgive my ignorance on Conservapedia
But does Conservapedia first argue that evolution is rubbish, then state that evolution is evil because it inspired Hitler? It can't be both surely? Or are they just saying Hitler was inspired by a delusion. --Smg87 11:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything that will make people stop believing in evolution and believe in god instead. If they thought that linking evolution with homosexuality would convert a couple of people they'd be splashing random bollocks about it all over the site. Crundy 11:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just so ridiculous..... I guess I'm gonna have to get used to it. But I mean seriously??? --Smg87 11:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hitler/Stalin is inspired by Rubbish. Interesting thought.  Let's see how they inspired themselves with other rubbish, take over the country and start attacking other countries.  Oh snap, someone did it already.    13:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see where the contradiction is. To take an example from the other side, plenty of rationalists argue that Christianity is bunk, and also state that Christianity is harmful because it inspired the Inquisition, various wars etc. It is possible for something to be both wrong and dangerous.--ConservapediaRoolz 14:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Two different arguments..."is evolution/christianity true?" and "is evolution/christianity helpful?" The former has no bearing on the latter...well...actually I think it does with Christianity. I'd think the one true religion must necessarily be helpful by definition. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 14:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Although, yes, it's dishonest and misleading bollocks of the highest degree, there really isn't much of a contradiction. Something doesn't need to be true for someone to believe it - and more importantly - act on it, this is evident in everything from religously motivated terrorist acttacks to vaccine hysteria. The other way around, whether someone acts upon an idea in a negative way has no bearing on it's truth value. Someone jumping off a cliff and killing themselves doesn't make gravity false, so whatever Hitler's beliefs were has no effect on the accuracy of evolutionary theory. 20:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Banned from School Bus


A slightly interesting article from my local newspaper. There are two sides to this. One is, if you are not religious at all, why would you send your daughter to a Catholic school when there are plenty of other excellent schools in the area? The other is, if you are going to discriminate against non-catholics for the school bus, why the hell would you accept one into your school in the first place? Discuss (30%). Crundy 11:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very silly policy. I guess some people might be sent to such schools because of the standard of teaching, or discipline. But if the student's accepted into the school, acceptance into the school bus surely follows... --Smg87 12:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Faith schools in Britain are perceived by the Daily Mail some people as having higher educational standards - there are parents who will join/pretend to belong to a particular church just to get their kids into a faith school. Totnesmartin 12:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That perception occurs here in Conservapedialand the states as well. My high school had a big rivalry with the local catholic school in the regional science fair every year.  Some years we'd get smoked, but some years we'd kick their ass.  Seemed pretty even to me.   13:05, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's so Catholic. &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 13:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One of my mom's friends is actually sending her daughter to a Catholic School despite her being a Bhuddist, by converting her husband to Catholicism (Ouch). The reason she gave me of sending her daughter there is "This school is within walking distance, other schools aren't" (Apparently she never watches Steven Wright).  Almost crazy people I would say.   13:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Couldn't they just make her sit at the back of the bus, and put some signs up saying "For coloured heretics only"? -- 13:57, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice one, JeevesMkII. (get someone to behave like Rosa Parks too)   14:02, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Non-xtians are the West's new niggers? OMG racialist! 19:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I went to a Catholic School from first to one month of third grade, and I'd say the education was better. I was learning multiplication by the end of first grade whereas the school I went to after moving in third grade they were just learning that when I arrived. -- ENorman (not signed in)
 * @ Crundy: that is absolutely disgusting. FWIW I've sent a copy of the pic to Private Eye. 19:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And a link to this section to the Stafford Post.[[image:Evilgrin0003.gif]] 19:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the most disgusting part is that they are leaving the girl to get to and from school on her own, which is hardly safe. They have offered her a seat on the bus, at an unspecified cost (presumably inversely proportional to the level of faith of the child). BTW, text for the store is here. Crundy 07:44, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

By some oversight...
...Ed Poor now has the power to hide edits on Wikipedia. Totnesmartin 22:04, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No he can't. It's just autopatrolling. 22:10, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

That'll learn me to reed proper Totnesmartin 14:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Crash
The short version: ran into some hardware failures that shut down the server, got it fixed, but the database was corrupted. Got that repaired so all issues should be resolved now. Let me know if they are not.

The longer version: Server shutdown and wouldn't turn back on. Fan would cycle for a few seconds, stand by power LED was lit. So I tested various components starting with the usual culprit of bad memory, bad cards, heat sink problems. Normally would have tested power supply first but the SB LED had me thrown, as well as the two cycle fan spin. After testing everything else, I decided to test the power supply, low and behold it was the problem. Luckily I am a total geek and have a few spares lying around. Swapped one in and got the server back up and running.

At this point the site was reporting the database as crashed. Running some checks showed that the table that contains page text was down. Was able to repair it after some finagling, but what you might have noticed is that pages that were accessed during the repair didn't get "updated" post-repair and were reporting themselves as blank. This is easily fixed on wiki by editing the page and resaving thus "updating" the link to the text. I think I caught most of them. But if you see this problem the edit/save trick should fix it.

The current power supply is a spare a few years old, probably would be a good idea to get a new one in there, but it appears stable and so that can wait till pay day at least. Unless someone wants to sponsor a new one.

So yeah, that was my evening. tmtoulouse 01:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It was a caching problem. I've restarted memcached (sudo /etc/init.d/memcached restart), it should be fixed now (table appears above recent changes for example). -- Nx  / talk 06:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One thing that's a little weird that I've noticed, the community chalkboard has reverted to the default link colour scheme for me. I can't figure out why, the CSS still seems to be right. Are other people seeing the same thing, is it some hangover from the same incident, and how is it to be fixed? -- 07:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki:Common.css had to be resaved. It's fixed now. -- Nx  / talk 07:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's sorted it. -- 07:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank the gods that the hamsters survived! Warren Terra 17:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ZOMG is Nx back? (running amok)  01:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

CC-BY-SA 3.0
I have started a debate on whether RationalWiki should switch to CC-BY-SA 3.0. 15:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Blasphemy Day
http://www.blasphemyday.com/ http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=50200339561

Found this via Jesus and Mo. Quite interesting although not very big as for it to be sucessful you'd need to find people who are A) non-religious and B) care enough to actively blaspheme rather than just ignoring it as the hogwash that it all is. 18:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Add to Holydaze, at least. The trouble with ignoring hogwash is that ignoring it doesn't make it go away. Totnesmartin 10:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Attenborough & God
(apologies for linking to the Torygraph) 07:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, I wondered that same myself. I always thought he would get that sort of mail. Fuck 'em, Attenborough is a god in my household. Ace McWickedi9 08:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * From the article:


 * Sir David also said it was "terrible, terrible" when creationism and evolution were taught in schools as equivalent, alternative perspectives.
 * "It's like saying that two and two equals four, but if you wish to believe it, it could also be five... Evolution is not a theory; it is a fact, every bit as much as the historical fact that William the Conqueror landed in 1066."


 * (Emphasis mine)


 * Looks like he is aware of the assfly's work! Crundy 09:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Google Ads
A quick Google shows there are more than enough IDiot sites out there paying to drag people to their cesspools of nonsense. I was wondering if it's worth us all taking them up on their offer and clicking as many of their ads as possible? Fuck it, if they're willing to pay to spread deciet then make them pay for it. Crundy 09:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We already have google ads from "Islamic Matrimony" sites, which is apparently what dating is like when holding hands is a capital sin. WazzaHello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me... 10:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Had, rather. WazzaHello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me... 10:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking more along the lines of draining their daily limit. Crundy 14:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

A rational book demolishing club?
So, the latest IDiot book, Signature in the Cell is now available, and Trent wants someone to write an article about it. I was thinking maybe we should have a RW book demolishing club. Members get to propose books for demolishing, a sucker brave soul volunteers to actually read the damn thing, then we all chuck in a couple of dollars/quid worth of Amazon vouchers each for the person to actually buy the book. That way, we get the article and don't feel so dirty about having spent a tenner of our own money on some woo-meister's latest screed. What d'ya reckon? -- 08:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm against giving any more money to these morons. Is there any way to get the book for free (like asking someone who has already read it to donate it), or second hand? Crundy 09:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you get friendly with moderate creationists and ask the right questions, they will loan you these books as "proof" of their position. My first exposure to the creationist literature was when a family friend got into a discussion with me about it (he a high school physics teacher, I a primary school know-it-all; results were inconclusive because I didn't want to break his world into small, sharp pieces) WazzaHello? Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me... 10:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As with You Can Lead An Atheist... you can probably get a sizable chunk on Google Books as a kick start to any potential articles. What about libraries? I only have access to a University one and in the UK to boot so it's unlikely to have raving creationists literature, but they're the traditional source for getting these and not buying them. 13:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, how come we don't have an article on Stephen Meyer? He seems important enough to have his own article. Crundy 14:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Related Question: Shall we have a namespace/portal for book reviews (Positive and Negative) instead of putting them in main or essay space?   15:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never frequented the library here, but I don't doubt that there's copious amounts of creationist books in stock. I could probably find them fairly easily. I do live in Louisiana, after all. --PitchBlackMind 16:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Allow me to move the goal post a bit. I meant books and articles found on the intertubez, if we do reviews on them,  should have their own namespace.   20:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I want to have an anti-science book book burning...not because it's the right thing to do, just because it would really freak out the fundies. "LOOK! WUR BEING OPPRESSED!" &mdash; Unsigned, by: Neveruse513 / talk / contribs 20:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No need for a separate namespace, if the articles are on-mission, they belong in main. 21:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a separate portal page (easier to locate them)? BTW I think some of thsoe reviews are buried in the essay mainspaces as well.   21:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How about a category, to start with? (category:Book reviews or some such.  Book reports?)   22:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added Category:Reviews of books and articles (maybe someone can name this better?), now working to include the articles. I think we have Category:Refutations, but I am not sure if it is sufficiently similar.  22:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a good idea, although will be work.... Sterile 23:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A sneak preview of Signature in the Cell. Just a few pages per chapter, but you can get a feel from this.  Sterile 13:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * S'not hugely helpful. You just get the wooly introductions and none of the meat of what he's actually saying. Still, looks like the typical creationist output, bogus handwavey probability calculations, vague references to "information", etc. Don't know if I can bring myself to buy it, I 'spose it might be worth a punt once they have a paperback version. -- 13:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)