RationalWiki:Articles for deletion/Template:User Ataturk

Template:User Ataturk | Result: The terror of the Turk is gone from RationalWiki

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Delete

 * 1) Reason is that the guy was complicit in the continuation of the Armenian Genocide and in the pardoning of most of those responsible.https://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html Summa Atheologica (talk) 20:31, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 2) Don't forget the Greek and Circassian Genocides as well. — Oxyaena Harass  21:27, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * True about the Greeks, but the stuff with the Circassians was not committed by the Turks.Summa Atheologica (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, delete. 21:39, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Just remember to update user pages, we had this userbox used surprisingly in some. 23:00, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I found the users by looking and the image transclusion, not on the linking, so I don't think that's much of an issue, but I will do it.Summa Atheologica (talk) 23:02, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Delete (see conversation in Keep, below) 18:17, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 2) Fuck this guy, if you really wanna support him then use the code yourself but there’s no reason for this to be in the userbox list is what I’d reckon 13:24, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 3) if you want a userbox lie this use it directly or from userspace. EK (talk) 10:51, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Keep

 * 1) Why are we even talking about deleting a userbox template?  If you don't admire the fellow don't use it.  He's a bit more complicated than this discussion suggests in any case. And even if 'enlightened' opinion now says there's only one position to take on Kemal Ataturk now, I don't think we should be imposing it on user pages.  Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 03:21, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe that having a template honoring a butcher is not exactly good optics, nor a good thing in general.Summa Atheologica (talk) 12:54, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't want a Neo-Nazi template on here, would you, Smerdis? — Oxyaena Harass  12:58, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * More proof, if you need it, that nuance is dead. Our actual article on Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is actually full of praise for his achievements.  He is the founding father of the current Turkish state.  And yes, he had a hand in the final phase of the Armenian genocide.  Telescoping his career to that, and claiming that it's all you need to know or should care about where he is concerned, is just more of That Sort of Thing. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 19:30, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Developing a state created by genocide and massively benefiting from it isn't even remotely positive. That's like if say, Hitler's successor finished his work but then restored the people's freedom. The Turkish state is founded on seized land and injustice.Summa Atheologica (talk) 20:14, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This is Smerdis you're talking to, nuance eludes him. — Oxyaena Harass  20:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That... generally hasn't been my experience with him, whether or not I agree with his points. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 21:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) I have to agree with Smerdis on this one. I'd certainly never use that userbox because I lived in Turkey for a year in 1997/98 and I found the extremely strong personality cult that continued to surround the long dead Atatûrk very disturbing. But I wouldn't stop other people from displaying the userbox. Why not just edit the userbox to add, "(Well, probably not for being complicit in the Armenian Genocide)" or something like that? Spud (talk) 04:30, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * IDK what's the difference between this userbox and a hypothetical userbox saying that Adolf Hitler is totally tubular? 21:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Godwin's Law, FTW. 71.215.91.202 (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) I agree with Smerdis. Additionally, there's nothing stopping someone from just using the userbox source on their page instead of the template. This happened with the "fake new message" template. People voted it to be deleted so I just used the template source and still have it to this day. 08:07, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * We have a tool to use on people who would honor butchers. It is known as a banhammer. If someone, for example, said they admired George Lincoln Rockwell, Pol Pot, or Ernest Medina, we would use it on them.Summa Atheologica (talk) 15:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) The name Ataturk is still used by people regardless if they like the guy so I feel like banning a traditional turkish name is racist and unnecessary. If someone uses the name and legitimately supports Ataturk then we should ban them. RationalHindu (talk) 15:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * We're not even proposing banning the name. I did this AFD proposal in order to remove a template honoring a mass murderer. The Turks can keep on naming their children whatever they want. They can even name them Talaat, if they so wish.Summa Atheologica (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh I see now, well I don't see much of a need to delete a userbox that could be subject to Poe's law. RationalHindu (talk) 16:54, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The need is because the guy was a mass murderer and we therefore shouldn't be honoring him with a user box.Summa Atheologica (talk) 17:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * His good obviously doesn't outweigh his bad but most folk don't support Ataturk because he continued the Armenian Genocide but because of his presidency basically created the Turkish nation-state and being a firm supporter of secularism. RationalHindu (talk) 17:24, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Said nation state is extremely shitty, and as Summa said was built off of stolen land and the graves of the Young Turks' victims. — Oxyaena Harass  17:27, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I...uhh...you're right. I admit that wasn't a good enough reason to keep it plus I now think it should be deleted. Should I just delete my vote (I'm a bit new so I don't know what I should do)? RationalHindu (talk) 18:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I've done that bit for you :) Avida Dollarsher again 18:18, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Goat
If you want an offensive userbox for whatever reason you can simply use the code directly on your user page. It is not hard EK (talk) 21:57, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Decent point. This can be interpreted as a platform issue.Summa Atheologica (talk) 22:00, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This happened on Wikipedia several years ago and the person got banned over it. 71.215.91.202 (talk) 23:35, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * sad. EK (talk) 20:27, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

If Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was nothing other than a blackguard and a tyrant, whose only real claim to be remembered by history is as the villain-in-charge of a genocide, the first place to deal with this problem is in our article on the man himself. Not at an AfD about a userbox. I don't have a dog in that fight. But if we're deleting things people use to decorate their userpages because this is the orthodox and only acceptable assessment of MKA, the bigger problem would seem to be the tone of our current article on the subject in chief. That article doesn't even mention Armenia or Armenians. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 07:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That is no longer a problem, courtesy of yours truly. — Oxyaena Harass  11:38, 4 December 2019 (UTC)