Category talk:Socialism

Relationship between socialism and authoritarianism/totalitarianism
--Jakester499 (talk) 03:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Burmese Way to Socialism in Burma
 * Ba’athist Iraq and Syria
 * Third International Theory in Libya
 * Siad Barre in Somalia and Islamic Socialism in Afghanistan
 * Ujaama and Julius Nyerere
 * Nasserism in Egypt
 * Literally every current and former Leninist/Marxist-Leninist State in existence
 * Venezeula
 * Nicaragua
 * Relationship between capitalism and authoritarianism/totalitarianism
 * Trujillo in the Dominican Republic
 * Pinochet in Chile
 * The junta in Argentina
 * The Somozas in Nicaragua
 * Duvalier in Haiti
 * Chiang Kai-shek in Taiwan
 * Park Chung-hee in South Korea
 * Salazar in Portugal
 * Franco in Spain
 * Almost seems like nutpicking now, doesn't it? (All of the dictatorships mentioned were supported by the US, not so coincidentally.) Vee (talk) 04:51, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don’t want to get too heated, and you may be right about nut picking and there is no doubt that capitalism has had authoritarian and possibly totalitarian governments. Salazar and Franco at first were corporatist and Franco tried something like national syndicalism, itself right wing socialism but I didn’t for that reason, plus (my conclusion being if syndicalism=socialism then fascist syndicalism must be a right wing co-opting of socialism, however fascism is far right and most socialists are far left so I didn’t include. I also Fascism is not technically socialist but then I am confused about fascist “socialism” namely fascist syndicalism. Don’t want to end up like TIK so not including Franco and Salazar, they were however corporatist and Franco was totalitarian until the 1950s thanks to capitalist reform. I was however going cute George Mason university on Revolutionary Catalonia but the guy turned out to be an Austrian school anarchist-capitalist. However a red terror did occur in Revolutionary Catalonia, the Rojava are collaborating with ba’athist Syria to stay in power against Turkish onslaught, (Syria has killed more people than the Islamic state) Makhnovia seems to be clean for the time being, but they were crushed by the Bolsheviks. Revolutionary Catalonia was crushed by Stalin, Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and the Spanish Republic together. Rojava seems to be authoritarian according to Red Cross having not learned anything from the Assad dynasty. However you went almost too easy on capitalism, for one could consider the market reforms in China, Laos, Vietnam as being both communist in name only as well as being capitalist, so believe or not the nuts are actually intertwined. (Also the entirety of operation condor and Suharto could count).The thing is capitalism is easily defined, whereas with socialism I have no clue what they mean by socialism. I do want to be debunked on my logic surrounding fascist syndicalism being socialism so I don’t end up like TIK. Anyway I respect your opinion, as long as it requires no murder or executions. While I think authoritarian capitalism is more of a threat then socialism, I do think socialism requires less economic freedom, but economic freedom is no guarantee of political freedom, as the examples above you clearly prove. But capitalism could always come back, as with Mao and just the workers voting for capitalist policies. Jakester499 (talk) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * When I saw this in the page creation log, I almost thought it was spam… then I took a closer look. Luigifan18 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Why not spam? It's fallacious nonsense (nutpicking). Vee (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There are socialist and capitalist dictatorships. A better argument IMO is saying that almost all democratic countries are also capitalist countries. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 20:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * you stole the words right of my mouth! TyJakester499 (talk) 21:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * To be fair, socialist experiments are almost never allowed to properly develop in a representative democracy. I also don't believe the USSR and any of the places you linked were truly socialist, merely state capitalist. I've gone over the reasons for this before, but the USSR still contained wage labor, and entrenched class inequalities. "Economic freedom" itself is a loaded term. Capital requires a laboring class to function, and in order for such a laboring class to exist said class must be dispossessed of other means of pursuing economic security. This happened in Britain with the enclosure of the commons and the Highland Clearances, dispossessing uncountable peasants and basically giving them no choice other than to sell their labor. Economic democracy is limited to non-existent under capitalism, and any attempts to change that are shut down hard. Vee (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Why did you undo the collapse? It really is just concern trolling. Vee (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * See edit summary by wisconsom: "this topic is so vacuously non-fact based that its only function is to waste space and make it harder for future reasonable discussion to take place on this talk page"
 * I do not agree. I do not see concern trolling in display, especially with concessions made by Jakester499. All I'm seeing is someone trying to debate the merits of socialism and maybe misguidedly trying to associate it with authoritarianism. If they are wrong, then explain it. You should attempt more persuasion and exchanging your ideas at the moment, not accusations of concern trolling.
 * For instance: "The thing is capitalism is easily defined, whereas with socialism I have no clue what they mean by socialism.", you can easily help Jakester499 define terms better, as the basis of their argument does seem to rely on a flawed understanding of what socialism is; or you can also counter the "capitalism is easily defined" argument too, particularly with mixed economic system; no modern major countries are purely capitalist. See how they react, hopefully amending their arguments based on a clearer definition. 04:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * My apologies for failing to explain my reasoning. This user, Jakester499, is doing actions regarding topics that relate to Socialism or Communism which are in no way productive and is almost undeniably text-book concern troll actions, with them going from this Socialism-related page to that Socialism-related page, doing nothing but promoting hardline, even uneducated anti-Socialist/Communist views, with seemingly little care for commmunity consensus or productive contributions. In this particular instance, this user is making extremely unclear arguments, not suggesting any exact edit that should be made, just vaguely giving a few examples of countries which are not even particularly socialist (Most of the listed examples, such as Venezeula, Nicaragua, and Libya were simply state-capitalist with some nationalist and pseudo-socialist rhetoric). In addition to this, this user went on to make a long, protracted comment in which they claim Fascism represents a form of Socialism (Which is the degree of understanding one could see only on Conservapedia), then proceeding to admit they lack any understanding of what Socialism is. Because this topic is full of unclear wording and suggestions, lack of understanding of the given topic, and a militant ideological motive, most users would likely have no interest in seeing this, and it is merely taking up space where productive topics on this talk page could go. Wisconcom (talk) 04:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. They need to stop posting ignorant takes on socialism until then. This one is already pretty bad enough, but other terms too are extremely suspect: "economic freedom" was brought up here, and it is very poorly defined. Socialism most definitely does NOT mean less "economic freedom" when socialists are actually advocating FOR "economic freedom" when it comes to, well, owning the means of production./ These are very base level arguments here, which isn't a good sign of good faith debate indeed. 05:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm going to reinstate the collapse then. Vee (talk) 05:28, 10 December 2022 (UTC)