RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation/Archive43

Machina stripped of his sysop privileges
As most of you probably saw, went too far with his edgelord roleplay over the last few days on the Saloon. Shabi blocked him for a week (he unblocked himself) and Techpriest terminated the topic, asking him to stop too. Machina nonetheless ignored Techpriest's advice, reverted her edit and kept with the edgy posts. Shabi once more intervened, but this didn't convince Machina to cut the crap and he reverted Techpriest's edit once again, adding more bullshit to the topic. I'm not happy with what I've just done (I think most mods here know that, despite all my flaws, I'm a very easygoing person), but I think it was the right thing to do. I believe it was either this or a edit war on the SB. Therefore, I stand by my actions, but as I said I'm not happy with what I've done, so I hope a mod disagrees with my decision. For the record, I intend to give him his mop back in three days, when his block expires, if no one else does before me. GeeJayK (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2021 (UTC) After reading the whole thread I've decided I won't give Machina his mop back, unless a mod asks me to. GeeJayK (talk) 15:39, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Per rules this should be a vote, although given the length that would mostly be pointless. I warned Machina to stop, yet he kept going. I'll contest it on the grounds that this is against our procedures, but someone else can do the unblocking. -- Techpriest (talk) 21:03, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Very well. As I said, I'm not going to contest if mod or even a sysop gives him the mop back, but I'm not going to do this myself. GeeJayK (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I noticed the horrible messages Machina was putting out and I think swift action was warranted to prevent further harm Machina has been promoting (as well as helping enforce moderator action), with discourse with him completely poisoned already for days anyhow. Procedure can be discussed on further action. Machina is a sad little pathetic homophobe so don't feel bad about yourself doing things to sad little pathetic homophobes. You should in fact, feel good that you're not a sad little pathetic homophobe and you're doing a service by preventing others from continually reading their smug incoherent screeds. If someone wants to remop, I'll warn that it's very poor judgement. Do it at your own risk, or more likely, others' risks. 21:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't get worked up about a 3 day block/demopping as long as the mop is restored after 3 days. Further action can be discussed at that point if warranted. Bongolian (talk) 21:36, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm actually inclined to agree with Mario right now. The person has clearly defied a mod and these last few posts are arguably uncivil, definitely disruptive and offensive. Maybe we shouldn't demote Machina again. GeeJayK (talk) 21:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you post a link to what he actually posted that was offensive? Bongolian (talk) 21:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Personally, I would've given him a chance to respect the serious block before removing sysop rights, but since he's blocked anyway, I do not feel strongly about this. However, nothing he's done has been a rights abuse, so my immediate inclination is to oppose permanently removing the right. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒   talk  21:54, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What he said was self-centered, not homophobic. Of course real homophobes could use his arguments as rhetorical weapons, but that's a whole other can of worms that's unrelated to today's issue. 21:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC) Maybe offensive isn't the right word. But bigotry? Definitely. The entire topic is filled with claims like "gay men are their worst enemy" (in a world with Matt Barber I find it rather unlikely), "Gay men do it to themselves", "gay men only care about sex and are incapable of loving each other" among other things. GeeJayK (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the page you're looking for. 21:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the sort of dumb shit someone says when they're angry about someone or a group of people. In that case, the guy was a gay incel who got rejected by gay men. Incels are also said to be misogynists because they say this sort of stuff, but they're just dumbasses who envies married couples. Real misogynists are people like RooshV who belittle women, treat them like toys and promote the patriarchy, and real homophobes murder gay people because they take what is written in a book seriously. 22:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (EC) Offensive fits some of what he said. "I would say that your love is fake simply because you are a man falling for another man. It simply isn't so." "Takei is a what I would consider a bad example [...] and as mentioned before it isn't real love because it's two men". " Well the thing is that love between two black people is real, but not between two men as I have already said. It isn't the same thing at all."  Less offensive, but pretty disruptive: "Be more reasonable with other people and afford them basic human dignity, agency, autonomy, individuality and humanity.  Yeah...those are luxuries not rights, there is no basic human dignity, agency, autonomy, or any of that stuff. You've been too conditioned by modernity if you think such privilege actually exists. But that's beside the point."  I would call Machina's position homophobic; I don't know that I would call Machina a homophobe or a bigot, though.  Machina's thinking seems to me to stem from something distinct from the attitudes with which I associate these terms. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒   talk  22:11, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That's actually a pretty thorough explanation of the happenings over the Saloon. 22:14, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Y'all getting mad with a (deeply) weird kid who, until relatively recently, was earnestly agonising over whether there was such a thing as a verifiable external world existing independently of his own fucking mind. If any of you are dumb enough to give his opinions sufficient credence to get upset or offended by them, then the wiki would be every bit as improved by your absence as his. Get a fucking grip, you tools. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:12, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Pointlessly stirring shit for 8+ people that did take issue with the convo does help convince people and contribute to the discourse, doesn't it. 02:33, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Clearer minds would have noted his opinions can be safely ignored, maybe pointed & laughed a bit, and moved the fuck on. At this point, I'm honestly not sure whether this is all some weirdly performative faux-outrage, or whether this speaks to some genuine enfeeblement amongst a chunk of the user base. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 03:03, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just ignore him. He's that odd kid sitting in the dark corner of the pub that no one takes seriously. He'd probably vacate the bar if no one fed him oxygen. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 03:27, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not wholly convinced that he'd go away. The folks over on shroomery seem to think that he's on his eight or so account (the others having been banned), based on the thread he linked to last time he was agonizing over the existence of other minds.  Then again, the thread itself was plenty full of oxygen.  Even so, I agree that ignoring would be a good policy for people (myself included) to take as far as it goes with Machina.
 * As an aside, I increasingly question the efficacy of the collapse as a tool to reduce drama. It seems to present itself as largely another thing to be warred over. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒   talk  03:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You can say how we should ignore these people all you want, but that only works if everyone ignores them, and unless we start to punish people who fail to ignore bad-faith actors, then at least one person is just going to interact with them anyway. Plutocow (talk) 03:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the kid is no doubt irritating, but he apparently applies the same types of detached nihilism to everything he tries to discuss. Perhaps he is compensating for being a gay incel. I can't see how that could hurt or damage anyone even if they were as fragile as he is with his collapsing personality. Very sad really. UncleKrampus (talk) 03:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * He’s a dumb little worm, and he adds no value to the wiki by having sysop tools. I’d at least like to have the option of blocking him when he gets too insufferable. On the other hand, while I’ve expressed my contempt for him on several occasions, I see no need to ban or anything like that. 03:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Uh, HBC, as you can see in the thread, I was actually ignoring him. I only acted when he decided to ignore what a mod asked him to do. GeeJayK (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am pretty fucking sick of (usually) non-marginalised people telling us to ignore racism, homophobia and biggotry and just let it go. Fuck that shit. Ignoring it and not doing anything about it (just letting it go) is what allowed centuries of indifference, suffering and injustice. It is easy to casually say this shit if biggotry isn't attacking you or if you have an unusual thick skin of reinforced concrete. Consider stop telling people to let this shit go (thereby enabling biggotry) and support those who deal with this fucking shit every day. Thank you very much for those of you here who did help.  Shabi  DOO  09:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm frankly pretty tired of Machinas attention whoring and JAQing off. More than that, his complete inability to consider other editors' arguments indicates to me that he is not an honest actor. He's either a narcissist or a troll. Possibly both.


 * I wouldn't support a longer block or ban. But I wouldn't mind him stripping him of his mop so he could be given short blocks when he gets tiresome/offensive again. He doesn't need it for being a constructive editor anyway. Not that he has demonstrated willingness to edit constructively. In all his edit history his only mainspace contributions are two edit wars over Leo Gura article. Oh and there's this brilliant debate he made as his first ever contribution. Another early signal of him being just another edgelord JAQing off.  10:05, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is pretty obvious actually: He's narcissistic.
 * What are you ranting on about? Also I'm sorry to inform you that it's "bigotry" not "biggotry". 10:33, 4 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Transchicken, telling people not to respond to bigotry like homophobia and racism is enabling homophobia and racism. They are mindviruses that are harmful to people who have to deal with this shit everyday. So kindly consider supporting people who endure hatred (as I assume based on your name you have had to do yourself). This is a lot better than those who tell people to just "ignore it" or "let it go". Also, consider not calling people dealing with this shit as "ranting". All you are doing is minimising and dismissing shit that other people struggle with. Finally, a spelling correction during a contentious discussion is unconstructive to say the least, especially while people are trying to dismiss hatred. It gives the idea that one is indifferent to such hatred and even think it is funny. Shabi  DOO  12:29, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh woah, where did I say that you should not respond to dumb incels saying dumb incellic stuff? If you want to call out that guy feel free to do so, mock him for being an idiot, but don't be so vitriolic and cast aspersions, don't take anything he says this seriously, by acting like you do right now you give credence to his opinions, Helena puts into words my exact thoughts on this nonsense.
 * And while we're on the topic, can you please not misuse the term "bigotry"? I know it was corrupted by postmodernism, but the definition is still relatively the same: "a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)" and it is a synonym for "intolerant" " : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights : bigoted ". The guy that caused this uproar used homophobic language (As I and Serene highlighted) to describe his contempt of other people as they would reject him repeatedly, which is different from genuine bigotry. When I think of someone who is bigoted, I think of someone who doesn't want such people to live, thus my example with the religious fanatics who kill LGBT people, whereas this guy is nothing more than a spiteful little shit who wishes he could be in a longstanding relationship. Oh so sorry, I should have called it "whining", but I felt as though "ranting" would be a nicer thing to say to you.  13:26, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I've unblocked Machina so they can defend themselves here in the ATIM. Is there something akin to for ATIM? If there is, could someone inform him. I'm restricted to cellphone at the moment so this is rather difficult.  15:44, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * . Bongolian (talk) 16:07, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, I didn't block him from his talk page so he could request to be unblocked and answer this thread in case he wants to. GeeJayK (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Two paragraphs of stupid bullshit. No I am not pretending that this homophobia is okay, I am not going to say nothing when people tell me to "just ignore it" or "it isn't a big deal" (it is a big deal) and I am not going to take people like you seriously when you call it "whining". You and HBC will be in great company (the sites second best troll enabler). Shabi  DOO  15:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Well I got home to my 'puter and did it myself. He should at least be aware of this thing by the next time he shows up. 99+% of his edits are in the Saloon bar so he might not have paid attention to this otherwise.

Anyway, just trying to be fair here. For all I care, the guy should be stripped from his mop and given short block with warning that more of the same will come if he should continue his campaign of edgelord narcissism. 16:30, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you're right. I've pinged him on the OP, but I should have posted something on his talk page too. GeeJayK (talk) 16:36, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Once in a while Machina does pose an interesting question which brings up some interesting responses, so I would be the last person to say he is a completely counter-productive member of rationalwiki. Having said that, the community standards clearly refer to "engag[ing] in sensible debate". Posing a question, ignoring every single response and then reposing a variation on that question multiple times is not engaging in sensible debate...and users have been permabanned in the past for doing this. The recent vile characterisation of gay people is a one-off thing (and hopefully an unfortunate blip). I wouldn't want to see Machina stop contributing, but I think just about everyone here agrees that there should be an obvious point where "just asking the same stupid question and ignoring or dismissing virtually every response" from the same user ends. Shabi  DOO  17:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Not only are you unwilling to listen, but you appear to have severe reading comprehension issues, so we're done talking and I'll stop here as I said my piece. Ps: Troll enablers are those who react to them, consider yourself one since that's the only thing you're good at. Next time you see an incel like Machina, mock them instead of arguing.
 * I am not familiar with this, so is it another chicken coop? Or, does the voting goes on the ATiM? 17:22, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Far as I understand it, Coop is for addressing administrative abuse. I.e. if someone uses their sysop, mod or tech powers abusively to block people without ability to unblock themselves (sysops have that power) or strip them of their mop. ATiM is to address editors who might not be sysops or who have not abused their mop but are otherwise problematic. Sometimes coop cases turn into something that should probably be here (for example the banning of Rob Smith started with cooping of me and Duce for abusing our mops against Nobs, but ended up with Nobs being banned instead for being an asshole).
 * But yeah, otherwise this works like Coop. 14:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Incels are bigots. Sorry, I fail to see otherwise. Would anyone call your standard variety incel someone who "uses misogynist language" also someone who is "different from genuine bigotry"? Never. They are unusually attached to that weird shit viewpoint about sex and relationships (like all the stupid Chad and Stacy stereotype shit) that ends up making them hate woman and loathe themselves. That is bigotry. A bigot is "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." By definition. Most garden variety incels aren't at the point where they are super-fanatical and don't usually cross the line into violence, either. But that's not the definition. (Of course, sometimes this does happen. In the Western world, these days the incel terrorists are about as bad as the Islamic jihad nutters and Y'all Qaeda.)
 * I have no problem calling Machina a bigot. Just becomes it comes from drugged out super-nihilism and not from sort of super-religious cult targeted hatred doesn't mean it isn't bigotry. He literally was saying that two men can't be in love only because they are two men. That's it. No other real reason. Just the bullshit in his head that made it so. That's more than just "homophobic language". Yes, the motivation behind the bigotry is different than your Xbox Live Call of Duty masochistic edgelord. But so what? PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:40, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's the definition of terrorism according to the Merriam-Webster, so Antifa is terrorist? Alright, that was unnecessarily rhetorical on my part, anyways I don't care. What you described right there is more akin to zealotry, bigotry is more of a synonym for intolerance. The comments themselves, made by Machina are intolerant, but he isn't intolerant, he is envious and conptemptful. And thus, I don't think of him of anything else other than that he is an incel. Reserve the word "bigotry" for actual bigotry, not this nonsense. You are the sort of people who caused the word to lose meaning in recent years with people getting increasingly disinterested to hear anything about someone if that someone has the label "bigot" attached to them. Frivolous or gratuitous accusations of bigotry and oppression aren’t free, they make it easier for religious cultists and white supremacists to blend in. 17:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * More stupid appogetics. A lesser degree of (in some people's opinion) or a different category of hateful harmful statements are still not cool and nothing to be silent about nor is it bloody whining to call it out or respond to people minimising or dismissing it. This shouldn't be controversial.  Shabi  DOO  18:07, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Never said otherwise, just the way you decided to go on about it is asinine. Like I said, you could mock that guy for the hateful rhetoric, but instead you decided to throw a fit about it which, again, gives credence to his opinions, and for an actual troll, it would confirm them that it does offend you, so they will just repeat verbatim what was said just to get a reaction out of you. 18:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

(EC) Machina strikes me as having unresolved mental or emotional problems, problems which the wiki is not equipped to help him with. Insofar as he denies any personal problems, denies that he needs any help, and seeks advice from the wiki, further engagement with him seems, to me, to be in some sense irresponsible. RW is not, cannot be, and should not try to be, a therapist. The initial post by Machina in the thread that precipitated this reads more like a statement to a psychologist than a request for debate and discussion. Being an incel, depressed, narcissistic, whatever: these are not things that are resolved by posting on internet forums. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒  talk  18:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Scream!! (talk) 18:31, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed you are right. Suggesting he get help is the best reply. Shabi DOO  18:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

EC the word bigotry is not being misused. setting the bar for 'genuine bigotry' ridiculously and arbitrarily high with comparisons to murderers and hate crimes dismiss the vast majority of 'genuine bigotry' with it. in doing so, we dismiss those who find themselves marginalised and victimised, made to feel worthless, made ashamed for being who they are, as being exposed to shit on a daily basis that perniciously worms its way into the subconscious and fucking them from within, none of that shit passes the pulled-out-the-arse-of-shit-stirring-troll standard for it to count as genuine bigotry. this both shames people adversely effected simply for being adversely effected by displays of bigotry and it gives bigotry a free pass, it normalises and makes hate acceptable. we ignore the minor transgressions, we ignore the casual bigotry, we make more likely and enable the really serious stuff. the offending thread in the saloon bar contained within it ideas and notions that are fundamentally homophobic. it presented gay men and their relationships as worthless and shallow. it presented pairings as entirely delivering sexual gratification only, as unfulfilling and disposable. and that a more meaningful romantic love is impossible between two men and only exists as valid between a man and a women. it pushed hateful stereotypes of effeminate gays, vain and promiscuous, men who cannot genuinely love another man and still be a real man. claims to the contrary are lies and delusion, your relationships are lies and delusions, your experiences contrary to this are shallow and worthless.

all depressingly familiar for some of us, just baseline homophobia. it did need to be challenged though, presented the way it was. posted as it was by someone who themselves has stated they are gay. and claiming that it his views are confirmed by the gay community, it gives an air of validity to it for the uninfrmed. ignoring would make his skewed depiction of gay life and relationships seem as being an accurate one. it does not sit well with me to let it lie when every point being made was a homophobic canard either completely alien to my own experiences in the gay world or grossly overgeneralised. this is all bigotry and remains bigotry even if its being shat out by someone whos evidently internalised a it all.

all depressingly familiar for some of us. and depressingly familiar to see coming from a gay man. ive a seen a little of every bit of hatred that machina will have us believe is the true state things espoused by other gay men one at time or another. theres always someone 'who hates the scene', who complains of screeching queens, with a barely concealed disgust of anything they consider effeminate and camp. ive had issues myself to some degree around ideas of sex and masculinity that have inhibited and impacted my relationships. things that took me time to overcome, however imperfectly.

im sure im just a delicate flower to some people here. im sure they are correct in ignoring all of this nonsense. i normally would, if it were just filled with the language of overt hatred, screaming in all caps about fags and the like. here it would be reverted, out of sight and out of mind in short order. its not particularly damaging when bigotry is so obviously vile, no one bats an eyelid when it is removed. this stuff is more insidous. it is, i feel, damaging. not on its own - that would be silly. but it calls out to things drummed into our subconscious over years and years. every fresh appearance of this shit further reinforces the shit that came before. little bits of hate, stupid and casual bigotry, swirling around ignored and unaddressed in the ether, unaddressed and ignored as we absorb it into ourselves, quietly poisoning us. sticks and stones we say. ignore it we say. if we dont, then we are over reacting. complaining over nothing.

ignoring this shit, dismissing it all as just stupid, disparaging people as whining and stupid for being bothered by it, doesnt work. the hate just gets so pervasive you start to believe it like Machina. for my part, i got substance abuse issues and hiv for my efforts in dealing with shit like this.

i get why for some people its fussing over nothing. sometimes it really is. sometimes i agree. sometimes it isnt though. sometimes its harder for some of us to just laugh it off. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:39, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I was being hyperbolic about it, but Shabidoo isn't using the correct definition. Bigotry is intolerance, intolerance generally comes in the form of vile hatred that often leads to murder, That's the whole truth about it. That doesn't mean you need to murder someone to be a bigot (I'm pretty sure Trump is one), but being spiteful or holding grudges against a group because you were rejected is not intolerance. If Machina gets banned from RationalWiki, he would almost certainly contempt the site and every single user of the site. However, would that in turn count as bigotry to hate every single person on RationalWiki? I don't think so, thus I politely explained how and why bigotry is misused. It seems, at least nowadays, to just be the catch-all term for "This person dislikes x minority group" without accounting for why the feeling is there in the first place. It is diminutive of what bigotry is and always has been and is also diminutive of the feelings expressed by the person by putting them in the same basket as Adolf Hitler, Gavin McInnes, Andrew Anglin and Richard Spencer. 18:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with AMassiveGay that homophobic statements should not be ignored here even if they are of the 'microaggressive' rather than full-blown type, and even if they are coming from someone who presents himself as gay. I also agree with Serene that Machina would be advised to seek professional counseling, as he has been advised before. He seems to have serious issues to deal with that go beyond his sexuality, which was shown by his long series of Buddhist-oriented existential-angst questions in the Saloon. Bongolian (talk) 19:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty positive he will not seek that counseling as he doesn't deem it necessary, although he probably has undiagnosed NPD. He probably thinks he's right and mentally sane and everyone else is wrong and mad which is sad in itself. Though, I was wondering when he would be properly blocked since keeping him away from the site would, at the very least, give him time to think about himself which could make him finally consider his mental health. 19:36, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Chicken you are being ridiculous and petty arguing over the precise use of a term when clearly the focus of this topic is harm/hate and trivialising people's reaction and challenging of it (which you unambiguously did with your loathsome "whining" comment). Be better than that. Shabi  DOO  23:32, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry to interrupt here but, what does NPD mean? I was trying to recuse from this, btw. --Andrew5 (talk) 23:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Narcissistic Personality Disorder. To all of you, I'd highly advise against armchair psychiatry. 23:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Fun fact: anyone bothering to read the whole SB thread will notice the conversation deteriorates rapidly from the point at which you decide to pull on your Captain GreatJustice pants and start lobbing utterly spurious accusations of homophobia. Slow clap, man. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The "conversation" was worth nothing to begin with. 00:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Nah, HBC, it went downhill the moment you used this opportunity to score cheap points over upset people with your smartass condescending "shame on you for being upset" scolding rather than the real issue of a loser saying problematic things that have genuinely affected others. This could've been a swift conversation to end Machina's rants, tell him to piss off, but you gotta show people how better you are for not being personally upset. You know, kinda like how Machina was telling people how better he is and their feelings aren't valid. 01:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't worry Lefty. When HBC pings me, I know it is fully of exactly what you described above and I don't even read it because it is meant to pointlessly inflame. It is obvious to all of us that HBC is clever and intelligent, I don't know what, at this point, they have left to prove. Shabi  DOO  10:14, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It really doesn't advance the discussion by becoming enraged with one another. The point is Machina has made a series of comments that some of our users find personally offensive: AMassiveGay has more or less made that case and though one might dispute some of his claims, one cannot deny that he regards Machina's views as an affront. I am not inclined to inveigh against abstractions because there is no end to such arguments. Machina might choose to argue that he is not a homophobe, but what he cannot do is claim AMassive Gay was not offended by Machina's unsympathetic and demoralizing ideas about the nature of being gay. So, what do you all want to do about it?UncleKrampus (talk) 01:43, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 08:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll chalk this one as my fault for abbreiviating in the presence of some notably lazy readers, but SB thread referred to the original Saloon Bar discussion, the mood of which was gently lolwut? until Shabi waded in.

Indeed, Machina' s most "offensive" assertions (and some truly remarkable oversharing re. the finer details of his sex life) came after that intervention, and if anyone bothers to read the fucking thing, they'll see he's doing his disabled best to demonstrate his opinions are based on his own specific experiences, rather than any homophobic animus towards gay people in general.

He even fucking acknowledges how borked his thinking is on the subject in the goddamn OP (emphasis mine):

"I heard it mentioned somewhere that the way male sexuality is portrayed is brutish in a sense, like something that is inflicted on someone else and it led to them thinking about it that way and how they approached others.

Now I know how mistaken I am in what I am about to say but please bear with it as it's just how my mind sees it.

With this I saw it as impossible for men to fall for each other as it's sort of like two strong forces clashing with each other and there isn't a weak one (woman). Or the only way it would work is with a masc and femme guy. It ties into that claim of it being something you inflict on someone else. So the way I saw it I had to act more feminine for it to work with a guy, because then otherwise it's just friends. In my mind unless it was similar to a straight relationship it just wasn't real or couldn't possibly work.

I know that on an intellectual level that is wrong, but it's just token admission. It's not true understanding. I guess I meandered on my way here but to me it just seems like it's not manly to bottom or fall for a guy because then you'd be a woman, again I cannot overstate that I know it's messed up to see it like that. But my mind can't really comprehend it, which is odd considering I am gay.

Ugh....it's a mess...."

Once again, slow clap for. You provoked the disabled kid into saying a whole bunch of dumb stuff, expressed increasingly poorly. And here we are. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sure this whole text is full of cleverly worded brilliance and blaming marginalised people for not quietly pretending this bullshit is okay. Anyone who bothered to read it, please let me know if anything was constructive. Shabi  DOO  13:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you check Special:Permalink/2359210, it did go downhill after you commented, but I'd say it was still Machina's fault for continuing to inflate. Either way, this conversation is getting quite pointless quite quickly, as it seems to just stir up unnecessary arguments.--Andrew5 (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed Andrew it would be more convenient for some people here if we faggots say nothing as we are reminded we are less human for the way we were born. I am sorry for inconveniencing you with my objections to bullshit like this and people saying it is not a big deal.  Shabi  DOO  13:09, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Nobody thinks that, you just convinced yourself otherwise. Nobody does. You realize your mindset is backwards and you care way too much about what was said when you could just resort to ridicule? Again, as a minority myself, ridicule is the best medicine for this sort of jazz because it gives no credence to what's being said. People here only complain about your vitriol, and if you did let the discourse go uninterrupted, Machina would have likely been laughed off the stage instead of causing unnecessary ruckus and brabble that went nowhere. Dude is mental and everyone who read his few comments could tell that much.  14:55, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sigh I don't know about the SB thread, but my thread here definitely went downhill over the last 12 hours or so. I think many good points were made by almost everyone here, but as a heterosexual man I'm inclined agree with AMG that ignoring bigotry is not always the way to go, especially if the person is being serious and not just offensive. Omission is a form of collusion and debuking crankery is still one of our missions here after all. Other than that I just wanted to say that I've decided that I won't remop Machina, unless a mod asks me to. See you guys later. GeeJayK (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Chicken, I didn't read your bullshit as I imagine it is just a user with two dozen edits telling us how to deal with problems and difficulties. I will not be silent in these cases, use mockery as my only tool and not respond to crankery and enable hate, especially with someone with mental problems. End of story. Thank you for the users here who have responded responsibly to the seriousness of this. Shabi  DOO  15:34, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * To be clear; I mainly terminated the discussion because it'd just turn into pointless circlejerking if it'd kept going. I'm not particularly upset with Machina; mostly just mildly annoyed that he'd overturned my modhat. As for whether or not what he said was bigoted; I think this is for the most part not a very interesting discussion to pursue. Machina's problem is just flat out uncontrolled narcissism. Any homophobia is a consequence from his inability to consider that human beings who are not him might experience emotions that he won't experience. If you want to talk about the problem with Machina, it's flat out that. Look at the other discussions he's gotten involved in (tip, look for WhatLinksHere for Template:Solipsism, we've pretty much had to put it on top of all his arguments). Every time it's the same damn thing: he cannot construe an argument to save his life and it always boils down to him being too much of a narcissist to consider that other people think about stuff in ways that he doesn't. There's no point at which this argument went downhill because it went downhill from the moment Machina started the topic and kinda floored into the ground after that. -- Techpriest (talk) 16:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "There's no point at which this argument went downhill because it went downhill from the moment Machina started the topic and kinda floored into the ground after that." Yes. Yes. Yes. I would consider starting a topic ban for Machina's nihilistic posts, but I know that many users will just dismiss this all as harmless including this episode, which is honestly as demoralising as the homophobia. Shabi  DOO  16:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Proud and defiantly lazy reading is quite the gambit,. Better not to look, I suppose, and run the risk of suffering your own narcissistic injury. At this point I'm clapping so slowly that full rounds of applause are likely to occur over geologic timescales. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 17:04, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Has anyone seen the new film "Free Guy"? Shabi  DOO  17:11, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have. I found it to be a surprisingly good psychological drama, especially considering its recency and its target audience. 18:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Nice, it will be my first cinema visit since lockdown. Everyone is raving about it. Shabi  DOO
 * (I would also like to express the mild suprise that even metadiscussions about Machina induce brainrot... this entire argument is just so goddamn stupid and the guy himself isn't even involved... I'm somewhat impressed). To be clear; I get why folks here are upset with what Machina said specifically, that said I would like to ask everyone to at least consider that if you want to "help" Machina, the kindest thing to do would be to firmly shut Machina's Saloon shit down and tell him to talk to a psychologist or something. I'm basically echoing what Serene said here; if you want to put this to rest, the best thing would be a denial of entry from the bar and a message on his talkpage that until he stops treating us like psych, he's not welcome in the bar. I'm as of yet unconvinced he should be banned in any form; his behavior is not disruptive, just migraine inducing for anyone who has to deal with him. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:14, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, Techpriest, I think that's the ultimate conclusion of this time-suck. Sysops should feel free to collapse conceptually-repetitive openers from Machina in the Saloon, or anything likely to be disruptive. Machina has not actually made any contributions outside the Saloon, his talk page, and some edit warring on the Leo Gura page. The last of which is another bad sign. Bongolian (talk) 17:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I won't give him his sysop rights back. Is that ok? GeeJayK (talk) 18:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You are not required to do so. We haven't heard a word from Machina here. He can request to have his rights restored, or any Sysop can give him his rights back if they think his editing is worthy. Bongolian (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Sysop privileges
They weren't abused here. This is little different than Twitter's inconsistency with blue checkmarks. 20:54, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Rights restored, I think this thread in general has run it's course. If anyone wants a vote for something, call it now I guess. Otherwise I want to encourage anyone to simply not engage with Machina's delirium and tell him to talk to a psych instead and fold his saloon stuff. You don't need me to modhat for that. -- Techpriest (talk) 21:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have reverted or collapsed his stuff and added templates numerous times and he just reverts it back. I basically didn't continue reverting to avoid an edit war. Until now, few people ever intervened or used a mod-hat. In the future if someone can help me do that without me getting dragged in an edit war, or if at least nobody accuses me of edit warring...then yes...that is a fabulous solution. I have suggested he get help in a dozen different kind of ways, through reason, through patient explanation, through direct suggested and in your face. Other users have done so to. To no effect. But perhaps one day it will sink in. This...would absolutely be the best result for everyone. Shabi  DOO  21:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There was a transwoman here, Oxyaena I presume, who had similar issues with social environments, such as this one right, who was ultimately let off the wiki after many years because in spite of being given many chances, she never fully managed to fit in. Machina is another example of a person whose mental health effectively prevents him from being a contributing user on the site, but hey I don't even know whether I'm entitled to say this since I just arrived. On my end, I propose a 1 week block, that should give him enough time to reflect. Other than that, I do agree that if he restarts spouting nonsense, people are better off not engaging with him (As you suggested) or doing so with mockery.
 * Should I start a poll to see if people are interested in the idea? 21:17, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * NO. Mocking a person with mental problems is one of the most unconstructive things you can do. Why would you? We don't need to block Machina or even vote on this. Just assist in collapsing his content and helping out an end to hate related content if it ever resurfaces. Shabi  DOO  21:33, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This again? I heard you, you only work in temper tantrums, if someone says something offensive, pointing that out and laughing is not your modus operandi, you'd rather scream about it and make things worse for everyone. At least consider the idea, he will eventually get cooped with his behavior any way. 21:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep the punishment boner in your pants TC. Most of us don't like chicken coops, they're frustrating and tiring. As for you Shabi, if Machina causes an edit war or something in the bar (he doesn't show up that often...) for a collapse of his blatant billboarding of "I need a psych", feel free to bug me on my talkpage. That said, I'll also ask you to not keep feeding Machina should this happen (more precautionary than anything else). -- Techpriest (talk) 21:43, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Transchicken, do not mock users with mental problems. That is an awful thing to do. Zheesh. Shabi  DOO  21:47, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Shush, I'm done talking to you.
 * So, when do we start the vote? You gave us the option and I want to push that forth here. It only serves to help him reconsider his thoughts, nothing that bad really. 21:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Would somebody else please back me up here that it is a shitty idea to mock users like Machina with clear mental difficulties? Shabi  DOO  21:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes Techpriest, barring any return of similar homophobia I will totally concede it is best to stop interacting. Shabi  DOO  21:55, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I oppose mocking the disabled. Don't do it.UncleKrampus (talk) 22:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

This does not need a vote, and certainly not over a proposed 1-week block. If there is continued evidence of bigotry, there will be a vote on punishment. Bongolian (talk) 22:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Shabidoo is being disingenuous here. Nobody mocks Machina for being disabled, only for saying homophobic stuff. I also support for a vote if he doesn't get blocked again immediately, what Machina said in the Saloon was vile and repulsive and he got blocked over it. Why was he unblocked? Senioritas (talk) 22:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * All right, devil's advocate arrived. Shabidoo, if you knew that he was mentally ill, why did you cast aspersions filled with expletives against him; Derail his stupid opinionated discourse because of your "Being silent is bad" mentality, although you could express your thoughts with snark instead of anger; And last, but not least call him all sorts of names when you know he cannot control his emotions? Your behavior is arguably worse than his and I'm considering voting for you to get that week ban instead of him. In all seriousness, what the hell's wrong with you? 22:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * OK why don't we let this go here and now TC? Please don't respond Shabidoo. The moderators have it right. Take a nice walk if it's not raining where you are.UncleKrampus (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)