RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive151

Too many spambots
What countermeasures should be implemented to tackle the spambots? I think the number of spambots we are encountering is simply numerous. Mandatory email requirement, prevent edit by new users? --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 08:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Scroll up.-- 09:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoops! --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 09:25, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Monumental Movie
So, I finally got around to seeing The Artist Sunday. It's a great movie, but that's not the point of this.

They had a trailer for a movie called Monumental, which appeared to be a documentary about a search for America's national treasure. I like that sort of thing, so I was intrigued.

Then I saw it was "hosted", for lack of a better word, by Kirk Cameron.

Uh-oh.

Yep, it's what you're probably thinking it is. They're being very coy in the advertising, but really, would anyone be surprised to learn that the "treasure" they want to find is "we've got to get back to our Christian roots or we're all doomed, doomed I say!"

Feh. Not quite "Lying for Jesus", but clearly "Obfuscating for Jesus." MDB (talk) 13:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "We need to export all the gays, atheists, and Moslems"? An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:19, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I saw a trailer for this while seeing The Secret World of Arrietty - apparently it's being marketed at children, too? (All of the other trailers were for children's movies, as the theater specializes its trailers based on the audience.) My brother and I just looked at each other and said, "Kirk Cameron" in deep, mournful sighs.
 * I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it flops horribly, just like Expelled. Kirk's WTFery is pretty well-known, which might alienate general audiences and leave only the niche market. And I doubt that it will be a technically good film (it's Kirk Cameron, after all), so the critics will just pan it. 21:16, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, internet, EULAs make liars out of all of us....
It started as a tweet then became a demotivational poster. Best comment I've seen on the quote is a comparison to a South Park episode. -- Seth Peck (talk) 15:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Even among my religious acquaintances in the UK I don't recall any who actually read the Bible as a pastime. However, I have met many Americans who actually do read it, earnestly. I guess this is to do with Evangeliicals being more widespread in the US (or Nigeria, where I also met a lot of Bible-readers) than the UK. 16:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I know many Americans who read it "religiously"...most of them don't bother to read the Old Testament, and among those they tend to retain their focus on specific books--Matthew, John, Ecclesiastes, etc. My thinking is that there are basically two types of Christians who say they've read the book all the way through:
 * Those who, despite all of the violence, sex, torture, polygamy, murder, false promises, failed prophecies, cultism and other messages of dubious moral value, still think it's a good book (due to denialism, selective memory, cherry picking, etc)
 * Liars. Remember:  roughly 80% of American Christians, 75% of high-school aged Christians and 60% of born-again Christians believe that "God helps those who help themselves" is the central theme and message of the Bible.
 * And of course this simplification doesn't include those who didn't read it and just accept what their preacher/parents/whomever tells them, or the number of people who read it and thought "WTF? SRSLY?" and then left the religion. -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I would actually disagree with you SP, they do read the bible, old and new. If you have ever read the bible, however, you'll understand instantly what the problem with that is.  The bible makes no sense.  I don't even mean in our Rational Wiki "how can you say this on page one and this on page 35" way, but just word for word sitting down and reading it.  You have to be very mindful to understand the archaic language, the referential language, the poetry, the songs, etc.  So, these people sit down and read this stuff the way I do when I sit and read something by Lawarence Krauss.  I *WANT* to understand it, and I'm patting my back that i've read every single word of some article.  But if you asked me what that paragraph right there says, and then what it means, i'll look at you with a blank face.  Yes, I've read it, but i don't have the background to understand it, contextualize it, deal with it.  Christians often have "daily readings' which take them 1 or 2 years to make it through the bible.  doesn't mean they understand any of it.  --[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]Godot     What do cats dream about? 17:20, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And, like many atheists, I have read it, cover to cover (my copy happens to be a Gideon Bible that I took from a hotel in Limon, CO when I was 17). Your paragraph here...you say you're disagreeing, but actually I find myself in agreement with what you're saying.  I think the disparity between what I'm saying and what you're saying lies in the differences between reading and understanding.  Maybe I should amend my original statement to say "read and understand the Bible", to reflect the comparison of the demotivational poster, that the little checkbox says "I have read and understand the Terms and Conditions of this Agreement."  -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As humiliating as it is to suggest, I call simple reading comprehension into question here. I actually first read the Bible in a high school AP literature class (for purposes of comparing biblical themes in lit) and a vast majority of the 'Advanced Placement' high school class had some difficulty understanding situations in the Bible. I pin these people at having about average reading levels for 17-year olds. Then I think about the people around that have less than that reading level, of which there are very many. The Bible itself isn't a particularly 'hard' book to read, but it's not exactly 'The Cat In The Hat.' Considering the reality of comparatively poorer education budgets in the bible belt of the USA, I would not be surprised if there are lots of people who have tried to read the bible themselves but just didn't 'get' what it was saying, didn't understand some of the vocabulary, or didn't comprehend the implications of the sentences within. ±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR garrulous en guerre 18:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And I spoke unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone. (one of my favorite lines in teh "why can't God just say what he means?" relms.  KJV, Deut 1:10[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]Godot     What do cats dream about? 18:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh
Anyone here know the number to his show? 194.150.168.95 (talk) 17:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 555-JFGI. Scarlet A.pngmoral 18:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Ovoviviparity
So I went over to to see if creatures that lay eggs which immediately hatch would count as transitional animals (between egg-laying and live-birth species). Unfortunately, the article is terrible, and doesn't mention evolution or transitional species. Should we form a posse and improve the article, or write a better one here? Sophie because liberals  21:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Sherry Rowland, CFCs, and global warming
Apparently, chemist Sherry Rowland, a Nobel co-winner for his work on CFCs and the ozone layer, died last week. Real Climate has a good post up on Rowland that also links to further reading on ozone denialism. Rowland's fight against denialism, chronicled in part in the essential Merchants of Doubt, is a great demonstration of Santayana's Law. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 04:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Why delete the RationalWiki Voynich Manuscript page?
This section has been moved to Talk:Voynich Manuscript Comment so the pibot will archive. CopperheadHisssssss 14:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

crazy quotient
It seems that our crazy quotient (CQ) is on the rise today.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:16, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm always the same amount of crazy, so it's probably not my fault. If you're talking about the silliness over on the global warming pages, I'm staying out of it. I always seem to somehow mess up when I try and do that kind of thing. ±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR longissimus non legeri 18:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That, and the guy on the Muhammad page threatening to hunt us down and kill us.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Just take solace in the quote I put at the top of PISSED Scarlet A.pngpostate 18:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice to know we're getting some exposure. Тy rannis 18:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this about outside crazies, or the usual internal craziness?  09:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It was about visitors - but they seem to have gone away. Sort of a shame really.--BobSpring is sprung! 19:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

More Congress video game hate
I realize there have been a few too many video game topics in the saloon these past few weeks, so consider this more of a "crazy congressmen antics" watch. Reps Joe Baca (D-CA) and Frank Wolf (R-VA) have introduced a bill that would require all non-EC (early childhood) rated games to carry a Surgeon General's-esque label: "WARNING: Exposure to violent video games has been linked to aggressive behavior." This includes E-rated non-violent games such as Animal Crossing or Harvest Moon, two of the most relaxing, inoffensive games out there. Thankfully, I doubt this bill will get far at all (which is why I didn't WIGO it), but it never hurts to call out your representatives on their nonsense. --CoyoteSans (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, when has it ever been linked directly to aggressive behavior? -- Seth Peck (talk) 23:32, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm more surprised at the logic devised for the top militarized nation on earth enacting the toughest restraints on "violent" video games. Osaka Sun (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If they put this label on video games, why not on 'violent' movies or books? GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 23:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, have you never heard of the MPAA? Turpis 3:16 (talk) 13:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Look at the topic you're replying to, and then think about why what you just said is stupid. Worm  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ars Technica said: "This is not the first time that Baca and Wolf have proposed legislation requiring warning labels for video games. The first such bill was introduced in 2009, and would have required a label that said, "WARNING: Excessive exposure to violent video games and other violent media has been linked to aggressive behavior" (italics added to highlight differences from current bill). That bill also asked for warning labels only for games rated T (Teen) or higher—the current bill lowers that threshold to games rated E for Everyone or higher."
 * The first bill seemed much more reasonable, and I might actually have been able to support it. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 23:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have never actually seen a conclusive study, much less a repeatable experiment seriously proving that video games make normal, well-adjusted people more violent. @AnAmericanNihilist, This is just yet another chapter in the march of media. It happened with books, happened with movies, happened with comic books, and happens with TV, and even with the internet. People are easily made afraid of things they didn't really know as children. It's a ridiculously easy pathos-and-ethos argument to carry on about. It even spans hundreds of years in media: 'the old ways' vs. 'the evils of modern life, keep my children away from them.' ±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR sufficiently advanced argument still distinguishable from magic 23:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I think it's a fair argument to say that overexposure to violent media can increase aggression in children. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 00:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean it's a plausible one, which means it matches your personal human-behaviour emulator. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but doesn't mean it's right. What do the numbers say? - David Gerard (talk) 00:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As the Freelance Astronaughts Said, "yah, it'll desensitize you to violence, but i think movies and comic books got there first"-- il' Dictator   Mikal  06:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a qualitative difference between videogames and other media such as books and movies, though. The latter are passive, you just sit there and absorb the story. Videogames are evidently different. Like most of you I don't buy the "videogames cause violence!!" panic-mongering, but it's not a good enough rebuttal to just say "but but but books! and movies!". ONE / TALK 09:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I always assumed violence was caused by people being shitty. I don't think a video game will make you any shittier a person than you were already going to be.   09:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ive seen some numbers that do show "aggression goes up" but not much more then a normal competitive sport would probably give you. -- il' Dictator   Mikal  13:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What study would that have been? An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 13:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't remember. -- il' Dictator   Mikal  14:19, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

So, that means no conclusive study has ever shown video games to increase aggressive behavior more than any other form of media. If video games receive these warning labels then so should religious texts. -- Seth Peck (talk) 15:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * WTF. I'm late to this party, but there are no conclusive studies that show any violence or aggression is related to video games. In fact, there are some preliminary studies taht show VG can lessen a person's aggression, cause they are using their energies to blow things up, to yell and scream.  What studies *probably* *actually* show is something like "every human responds differently to different stimulus, and every child is in a different home with different parents, and video games are but one part of the incidents in a child's life that effect how he or she behaves". Congress needs to get on with the job of getting us JOBS and out of the business of telling us how to use our bodies, raise our kids, etc. --[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]Godot     What do cats dream about? 15:45, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Humor imitates reality
Apparently FactCheck has launched an attempt at a humor site, FlackCheck. The first thing I see on the site is a video calling Lincoln a "tax-and-spend socialist. The talking points are straight out of an Austro-Confederate rant worthy of Thomas DiLorenzo. Maybe irony really is dead. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Never mind, watched the rest of the series and they're intentionally ripping off Confederate talking points. Funny stuff. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 07:56, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Sigh...
Despite the fact I've already accepted a new job, I had one more job interview Monday.

To be blunt, I think the interview went great. The only interview I ever felt better about was the one where, as we were wrapping up, I asked the recruiter, "so, when might I hear something?", and she replied, "oh, we hope to make you an offer tomorrow." (That was one of the few times in my life I was ever left speechless. I stammered for about five seconds before I managed to say "you're kidding!")

I'd love to work for this company. I know someone there, and she says she thinks I'd be a great fit with the culture there, and company culture is very big at this place. I'm well qualified for the job, and I'll get to learn some good new skills, too. And it would be rewarding work, too. (I'd rather not say why at this point, just that the customer for the contract is doing something I think is very worthwhile.)

Anyway, when I got home Monday, I sent the recruiter a thank you e-mail, and a couple of simple questions. He answered the questions Tuesday morning, and said he hoped to let me know something that day.

I've heard nothing since. The anticipation is driving me up a wall. MDB (talk) 14:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


 * One little thing, if you've told the people at job A that you'll take it, and you subsequently learn you've got an offer for job B which you'd prefer to take then please, regardless of the ethics of the situation make it crystal clear to the people at job A that you're not in fact going to work for them. We had a candidate who seemed adequate, gave them an offer, they showed up on day one as agreed, and then an hour or so into our induction process they finally explained that they weren't coming to work for us, they'd just dropped by to say hello or something. Confusing for us, embarrassing for them. Just phone up and say you've decided to pursue a different opportunity, thanks for the offer etc. but you won't be taking their job. Make sure you're talking to either the person who hired you, or the person you'd have worked for. Not the cleaner, not some random person who might forget to tell anybody else.
 * Surprises in interview are always fun. I told one previous CEO that the job I'd had previously had an excellent pension, and obviously his start-up couldn't match that but... and instead of him suggesting a higher salary as I had half-expected, or arguing that the rewards of small company life outweighed the risk of ending up destitute in old age, he said "Pension - Good idea" and wrote a 5% mandatory employer pension contribution into my contract. Well, you get what you ask for. 82.69.171.94 (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'll absolutely let company A know I'm going to rescind my acceptance. They'll be pissed, and theoretically they could insist that I work for them for three weeks, since I signed a paper promising three weeks notice, but I doubt they'd do that.
 * And if I've not heard from company B by tomorrow, I'm going to say "I have another offer, I need to know something soon." I may even add "I really want to work for you, and you don't have to beat salary, because job satisfaction is my reason for preferring you." MDB (talk) 17:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Question: Should we oughta...
I have noticed for some time that TWIGOCP sometimes gets polluted with stuff from CNAV even though the only thing it has to do with CP is that Terry Hurlbut has linkspamed it on MPR. Should we have a dedicated WIGOCNAV page or make it (unofficial) policy to WIGO them under one of the other pages? I ask because TH's screeds are a special kind of crazy, one that has been reasoned to, even though the reasoning is often cobbled together to support the conclusion rather than following the evidence to reach it's logical end. CP's reasoning on the other hand is based on what Andy alone has to say on the subject. While both come authoritarian roots CP's is much more "because I said so" than CNAV's which is more along the lines of "since we know that 'x' is evil, then these evils all follow from it".

C ® ackeЯ 16:37, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * (EC):Post on WIGO CLOG, with a hidden comment on WIGO CP on where to post CNAV? Sophie  because liberals  16:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Put it on clogs. Тy Yarrr 16:38, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I know the origins of the site, but it seems to me with all of the de-CP-ifying that's been going on, CP is really little more than another clog itself, doncha think? -- Seth Peck (talk) 16:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This comes up every now and then, but nothing ever happens. Тy Lonely. Ever so lonely. 16:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe we need a vote to get the ball rolling. -- Seth Peck (talk) 16:43, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I, too, once thought as you do. Scarlet A.pngnarchist 20:30, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, clogs, unless Terry's linkwhoring starts some sort of interesting flame war on CP, which I think it rarely does. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 16:41, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I would totally endorse CNAV becoming a regular on WIGO:CLOG. Scarlet A.pngnarchist 20:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I miss this show
1) medical Woo parody, 2) just not enough improv on american TV. -- il' Dictator   Mikal  23:38, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

US SCIENCE - GRADE F
review of the quality of science (well, mostly Evo) in the classrooms of generic US schools. and it's NOT a good sign for our future.--Godot    What do cats dream about? 16:39, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I remember my 10th grade biology class being pretty good on teaching real science as fact, although ive definitely heard more pro-Evo and anti-creat in college then Hs courses; given where i live thats not surprising though-- il' Dictator   Mikal  16:43, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I was in jr. high school in the late 70s, and I remember that we had to have creationism "discussed" in some way. so our very pro-science teacher had us "debate". It was me and maybe one or two others, against the entire room of kids. Frankly, i kicked their butts, cause growing up with a minister as a father, i knew the bible, and wanting to be a marine biologist i was pretty well read on biology. But i found it strange, even then (and yes, i was an athiest then) that so many kids accepted that science was a lie and we came from god. I took a lesson at that point in understanding that most creationists, or people who believe in creation are not the uber uglies we make them out to be, the are normal people who've not thought about, who are literally preyed (and prayed) upon by the "Creationists!!!!!" who use this ignorance as an "in". --<font color="Blue">Godot    What do cats dream about? 16:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I went to a Catholic HS (not for religious reasons, though) and YEC was laughed off as crackpottery by the bio teachers. The fact that YEC gets pushed in public schools in other places really scares me. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly the same. The only time YEC was thoroughly examined was in religion courses, and even then they brushed it off. Osaka Sun (talk) 20:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @Godot, or well meaning parents just doing what parents do. -- il' Dictator   Mikal  17:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In HS, Evo was quickly glossed over in Bio I, but in Bio II the Hindu creationist teacher allowed up to tear the theory apart in class using the bible as a reference. Тy Serious Business Guy 18:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I went to a non-religious private school where the science education in regards to evolution was spot-on. Unfortunately, other than that, my professors liked to go on tangents where we ended up getting a lot of false information (sore muscles are from lactic acid buildup, glass is really a liquid, those weird anti-nausea magnetic bracelets are the real deal, etc. etc. It probably doesn't help that one of the part-time science teachers was also a chiropractor.) User:ORavenhurst (gibber) 14:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought all of those you listed in parentheses are true. Is everything I know a lie? GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Got to go with with Nihilist on this one. HUH?  I thought glass was a liquid and that our muscles ache from lactic acid.  now i have to google and it's only 9am.  i don't want to learn things at 9am.[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 15:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sources for the glass thing . I actually just learned the lactic acid thing last night, reading this . It's like my word is falling down around me! User:ORavenhurst (gibber) 15:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay skeptics
Explain THIS. Turns out THEY were right all along. Tmtoulouse (talk) 17:50, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Cthulhu. -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Aliensdidit. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>narchist 17:56, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Mole People (The not homeless kind)-- il' Dictator   Mikal  17:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I was hoping for more skyrim references. Tmtoulouse (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow to the knee. -- Seth Peck (talk)
 * I used to be a skeptic like you, til I took a bible to the forehead-- il' Dictator   Mikal  18:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, Skyrim, this explains where Trent has been for the last sod knows how long. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>bomination 20:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Pfft, you people and your new video games. Right now I'm going through Mass Effect (1), Fallout 3, and Oblivion, all at once. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 20:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You call that new boy? rome total War, Fallout 2, Chrono Trigger and Final fantasy IV. not at the same time though-- il' Dictator   Mikal  20:28, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Tetris. -- 10:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't we have an article on this? As in, random noises claimed to be aliens/cryptids/the gates of hell opening up/a tear in the space-time continuum/a disturbance in the force? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably. -- il' Dictator   Mikal  18:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This comes pretty close for "random noises claimed to be aliens/cryptids/the gates of hell opening up/a tear in the space-time continuum/a disturbance in the force." Doctor Dark (talk) 19:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I AM ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL OF THESE BOOMS. Osaka Sun (talk) 20:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Can this ignorant whelp ask what this skyrim is? (I'm assuming a game...)[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 20:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a stupid liberal violence-causing roleplaying video game that makes its players use their imagination -- I'd even go as far as to say it's as bad as Dungeons and Dragons (the horror) -- which is dangerous thing indeed; we Christians only partake in true fairy tales. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 20:27, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Meme of the now. That's what it is. Vulpius (talk) 20:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It used to be a meme, before it took an arrow to the knee.
 * Did I do that right? An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 20:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * people are packing up belongings and leaving the area because of this, people are genuinely frightened. I personally suspect Molemen digging a tunnel under the area but thats just me. The local government is now recording at several locations to try to dicument the noise and I believe the military has been asked to rule out sonic booms from aircraft. Hamster (talk) 23:55, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just Goonie practising on his bass. 03:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Rationalwiki field trip -- the Creation Museum?
We should have a field trip/meetup; maybe this fall? Maybe at the Creation Museum? Would there be sufficient interest? P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 22:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Man, I would love that but alas one international holiday a year is all I can afford. And I can see myself selling the idea of meeting a bunch of internet strangers at a religious themed museum in Kentucky to Mrs. McWicked. AceModerator 22:45, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure she'll love Kentucky! :-D   22:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * They has chicken. Bawk.--Dumpling (talk) 03:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Less "sufficient interest" and more "sufficient time and money to travel to the Creation Museum."  22:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm game. Тy Complaints 22:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Stop making me look poor.  22:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I can see it now...the lamest little group of atheists at a place where none of us wants to go except to laugh and how stupid people are. In matching t-shirts.  I'm up for it if photos will be taken. -- Seth Peck (talk) 22:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I can make T-shirts. And I can provide photos. I'm up for any field trip.--Dumpling (talk) 03:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "Bye Mom, I'm going to meet some stranger from the Internet at a remote location in Kentucky next to the woods! Be back later!"-- 22:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, I recently met a stranger from the internet in one of the most dangerous cities in the world. We drank champagne. AceModerator 23:06, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * How does it rank against Kandahar or Juarez or Tehran? -- Seth Peck (talk) 23:16, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Smartass. AceModerator 23:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a feeling that arranging something like this publicly could result in Karajou coming and placing us under citizens arrest. Or shooting us. I'm too lazy (and poor) to go to America. I'm too lazy (and poor) to even visit Crundy and he lives on the same island as me. 23:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Which island? Sri Lanka?   23:38, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Great Britain. It's actually a small place. You can jog from one end of it to the other in less than an hour. 23:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You must be fast joggers over there.  23:56, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We've gotten faster since the government banned smoking in public. When they get round to shutting down all kebab houses and boozers scientists predict that the average Briton will be able to pedalboat from Land's End in Cornwall to North America in six hours. 00:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * perhaps you NZ people could meet at Ray Comforts house for a bbq ? He could get some tapes from CMI Australia and serve fried bananas.  Hamster (talk) 23:50, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Would be nice. I live in Dunedin, way too far south for anyone else (I think).-- 06:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I just got a free dishwasher from a stranger on the internet. 03:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yah, but people get killed on Craigslist all the time, man. I read it on the internet!   03:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll entertain the idea, but I am notoriously bad at this "planning" thing. We should keep in mind that a bunch of snarky (drunk?) atheists are likely to get kicked out of the Creation Museum in about 15 seconds. Since that's a long way for probably most of us to go, perhaps we should supplement the experience with something actually sort of sciencey. I've been meaning to try to see Mammoth Cave for a while. I'll have to check to see how close it is, but same state anyway. Drink afterwards of course. Turpis 3:16 (talk) 04:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If PJ got in I'm sure that RW would. But it's a tad far for me.--BobSpring is sprung! 06:38, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Wrong part of the planet at the wrong part of my life, unfortunately. Try again in 2-3 years, maybe? Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>postate 10:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Creation Museum is in the part of Kentucky just outside of Cincinnati, OH. Mammoth is probably a good 2-2.5 hr drive from there, south of Louisville.  That being said, I think I'd like to make the trip.   12:03, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Your views are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter. That said, I'm about a state away from the Creation "Museum". I might be interested. 15:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

UK Branch

 * Worth pointing out the closest thing we have to the Creation Museum here in Englandland Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>narchist 10:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There may be some other ideas here: Creationism in the UK.--BobSpring is sprung! 11:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite frightening how well connected they claim to be with various schools. Ajkgordon (talk) 11:15, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * £12.50 a ticket. Reasonable? Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>moral 11:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Or if we prefer Portsmouth for our holiday destinations, we can go see the shittest dinosaur ever (though with my bizarre compulsion to anthropomorphise everything, particularly crappily made things, I find him quite endearing. I just want to give him a hug!) Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>d hominem 11:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's like a slightly more realistic version of Barney. Vulpius (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that Portsmouth is closed.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Damn. I'll eye up some cheap buses to Bristol, then. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>theist 22:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's my sleep ruined.
My cat just woke me up in the middle of the night with the most bizarrely human sounding scream, after which he sat bolt upright and stared at the open window. I have no idea what he saw out there, because by the time I was awake enough to look there was nothing, but that scared the shit out of me. I think I might get up and close the window now. -- 02:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ...Rabbits scream too. And it sounds like a human-child. It's really scary. -shudder- Ugh. --Dumpling (talk) 03:06, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I always find foxes are the worst for that OMG! is someone torturing kids out there? If I go out, will the blair witch blugeon me to death? experience. But generally at least you get a few metres' grace from the source of creepy screams in the night. -- 03:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Roe deers can make really chilling sounds in the middle of the night. --Editor at CPmały książe 12:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Cats exist multiple dimensions. Ever seen a cat sparring with something that doesn't seem to be there? That's because it's defending earth from an other-dimensional threat. Your cat probably sensed a threat and was watching out for it. Be sure to reward him with tuna. MDB (talk) 12:16, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * My cat likes to stare just above my head with a horrified expression. Sophie  because liberals  20:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Fox News: Not Racist, but Number One With Racists
Commenters at the Fox News web site respond to the Trayvon Martin shooting story.

You may want to have a bucket handy, because some of the comments will make you vomit. MDB (talk) 11:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Necessary. Osaka Sun (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not understand the assertion 'He is hispanic, not racist'. Can he not be both? AMassiveGay (talk) 18:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the assertion is 'he's Hispanic and not racist', a claim to clear up the assertion that he was white. here's the best part.  way to go florida. "Under the new law, there is no duty to retreat and it gives a Floridian the right "to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force," if he feels threatened." if i even feel threatened I can kill you.  no matter what you are doing.  I feel threatened by santorum and co.  can I go to florida and kill them?---[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 18:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It only works with people of colour. If you kill whitey, you just a murderer. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Racism in Fox comments isn't nearly as flagrant as it is on other "mainstream" conservatives sites. The Blaze and (any race-related store linked to from) Drudge are probably the worst. Surprising enough, at WND, racism is basically a secret to everyone. Occasionaluse (talk) 19:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Happy Future Birthday!
Shameless self-linking to a blog entry about a favorite fictional character that I thought most RWians would enjoy, and also...GASP! a picture of me. -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You look disappointingly like a normal guy, not like the transsexual homosexual sad atheist clown wearing a hijab I had always expected. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 18:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This better? And you forgot "overweight". -- Seth Peck (talk) 18:14, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of that scene in Fanboys. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>bomination 18:03, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That... that's actually a thing? They have a sign and everything? Wow. Also, Seth looks like a pleasant enough fellow. <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR going galt: the literal crazy train 18:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Additional nerd-dom: the date on the sign is non-canonical, based off a date in a novel. The latest movie and at least one episode make reference to the actual birthdate of 2233-03-22.  And BTW.  -- Seth Peck (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Will you be following it up with a visit to Spock's future birthplace? 20:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Shi'Kahr might be a little difficult to get to by Jetta. McCoy was born in Kentucky, might be easier to get to, but I don't usually have a reason to drive there.  Yet.  -- Seth Peck (talk) 20:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Good, we can go there on our way to the Creation Museum.  23:54, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Physics on the fringe
Might be interesting to a lot of folks here: Freeman Dyson's review in NYRB of Physics on the Fringe, a study of unorthodox and fringe scientists.-- 23:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyone heard of the "NPA" (Natural Philo Alliance, apparently)?[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot    What do cats dream about? 23:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

#ToMyUnbornChild
It started as a sweet hashtag for people to say something to theiir unborn child. Then the homophobes crawled out of the sewer. -- PsyGremlin  16:21, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Homophobes have yet to master apostrophes, it seems.--Tiberius Gracchus.jpg. 17:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Was the hashtag for people who were pregnant and expecting, and chose not to abort their child? Or was it for their as-of-yet unfertilized ova in an anti-abortion sentiment? -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:21, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Since most of those appear to be guys, I'm gonna guess neither of the above. 21:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's not mistake the natural maternal bond with pro-life activism. --Tweenk (talk) 00:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, homophobes. I's sure it was going to be anti-abortionists. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 22:01, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Pro-choice eugenics
In the future, which states' federal health programs will require abortions for birth defects? Will children who believe their genetics were chosen for their "defects", be able to win law suits against their creators? What will constitute a birth defect? Intersex? (It depends on if there is a legitimate gender that is expressed by an intersex condition and more importantly, if there are significant health disadvantages of the intersex condition.) Should women who have downs syndrome embryos be encouraged to abort? (I'm leaning toward "yes".) What if they have schizophrenia? (I'm leaning toward "yes".) Unicow (talk) 21:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The 8 ball is that way -> Go play with it for a while.  22:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You say nothing. Unicow (talk) 02:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 20:02, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I say wamyn shall choose which beings are able to drink their blood and live in their bellies. What do you think of that? Unicow (talk) 05:16, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What if they choose a unicorn to drink their blood & a trilobite to live in their bellies? How's that going to be administrated, hmmm?  20:42, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Chronic Insomnia
I need some help RW. Last night I developed a bit of a cold and I also found that I couldn't sleep, at all. I ended up getting precisely 0 hours sleep. After coming home after class I thought I would be able to go straight to sleep but I just can't seem to get to sleep. I've tried everything, reading, listening to boring audio books, lying there with my eyes closed for hours but nothing is working. Its now 11:30pm and I face the very real prospect of not getting any sleep tonight either, which will be a total disaster.

Years ago I took seroquel, and I've been madly looking to see if I had some left over but I can't find any. What can I do? --DamoHi 10:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Buy some Phenergan (Promethazine) from the pharmacy. Night nurse has the same stuff in. Knocks you out for a while. Short term only, obviously. <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 10:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I had about 4 hours last night. Further bulletins as events warrant.  --DamoHi 17:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Try walking a few kilometers miles.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ambien. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 23:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Brandy. White noise helps me. ArchieGoodwin (talk) 00:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If I don't get a decent nights sleep tonight I'll have to go see my doctor. I am feeling pretty wired right now.  --DamoHi 04:07, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah. I have chronic insomnia. I would say check with your doctor. --Dumpling (talk) 04:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Speak to your pharmacist about 5HTP, or anything that contains, or promotes the production of melatonin or tryptophan. Those are the chemicals your brain produces to knock you out.  PsyGremlin  05:35, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you cut out caffeine? Even if you want it to keep you awake during the day, it can disrupt your sleeping cycle. steriletalk 05:44, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, valerian, a natural herb (sometimes in teas) can help. Or it's helped me in the past. steriletalk 05:47, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Tch. I hope you'd know better than that - David Gerard (talk) 11:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * When I got bad insomnia about this time last year my doctor helped me. I no longer get sleeping pills regularly but I have a packet for times that I need them.  You need to help yourself as well as the doctor helping you.  Limiting yourself to what the doctor advises can take will power. Proxima Centauri (talk) 12:10, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I had a beautiful sleep last night, almost 9 hours. I wonder if the fact that I didn't have any pressure to get up at a certain time helped me.  There is a really funny phenomenon that I have noticed when I get really tired which is the more tired I feel, the harder it is to sleep.  My mind just swirls and swirls and I feel the room spinning, but I get more and more stressed out by the fact I can't sleep.  DamoHi 21:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The only time I can't sleep is when I have to be up early. Sophie  because liberals  21:58, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The saga of the corporate video game market
The consumer backlash against ME3 is something different altogether...including the fact that those yelling "you're all entitled whiners!" are professed Teabaggers. Osaka Sun (talk) 13:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This video is delicious, delicious sarcasm. Mmm...<font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR longissimus non legeri 13:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've gotten so disinterested in ME3 that I'm only about half way through and I'm not terribly interested in finishing. I know about the ending, but haven't seen it myself.  I'm really disappointed with what I've done so far in the game.  It is amazingly linear.  Your number of possible companions are so much fewer.  I'm also not buying the "war against the unstoppable force" thing.  I can zip around the galaxy and these terrifying super-powerful sentient war machines can't do anything until I decide to talk to this person or that.  I've just really lost interest.  13:29, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So, would you rather have that you couldn't do that? GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 13:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So they threaten to give money to charity until their demands are met? How does that make sense? Vulpius (talk) 13:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's more of a symbolic gesture. And considering the immaturity of a vast amount of gamers, it's quite a classy move. Osaka Sun (talk) 14:14, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not in every case, apparently. Vulpius (talk) 15:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the point here is that it is not wrong to feel betrayed and sold out by a company that behaves this way. I don't think we can change ME3, really... but if Bioware wants to keep its audience, it's going to have to not pull things like this on us. It's OK to say that there was bad writing– there was. It's OK to say this was a horrible way to end the series– it was. People saying that people shouldn't think about the story critically and should just eat what is produced and not care if it is good entertainment or not really are wrong. The goofy fan reactions like demanding it be changed, etc? Yeah, those may be kind of out-there. But what is important is that game companies don't get away with this kind of thing again. The knowledge that people DO care what they consume. And these people will not in the future tolerate this kind of material that condescends to them. Hopefully. I hope this starts a real thing, rather than just fading into obscurity with people going back and consuming any old slop like they normally do. The industry's not going to strive to get better without a demand. <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR longissimus non legeri 14:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There's also possibilities of how the ending was planned to be related to heat death theory...all I can say is: what made them sell out? Osaka Sun (talk) 14:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Reality check: It's. A. Fucking. Video. Game. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>sshole 14:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought the same, but the entire industry is apparently choosing COD players over whatever quality storytelling is left out there. Think of it as pop charts playing nonstop Nickelback (which is actually not as impossible as you think). Osaka Sun (talk)
 * Whatever quality storytelling is out there? Stories in games have improved tremendously in the past ten years. Back in the 90s, only RPGs and adventure games had much anything resembling a story in them, but these days most titles at least try to weave some sort of narrative. Or were all those Doom clones we had back in the day a triumph in storytelling? Vulpius (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not about the past being 'better.' It certainly wasn't. It's about the present and the future. Sure, things are better now than they were. But claiming that things are better than they used to be does not make the actual problems and weaknesses of current issues irrelevant. That kind of argument doesn't really work to dismiss feminism, and it doesn't work as dismissal here either. The battle isn't won, the journey is not over. No matter how much better they are, video games (on average) lag far behind many other sources of media in narrative integrity. Without the demand to improve, the industry won't. It's cheaper not to, no matter the vision of the designers. And without the demand for quality writing, terrible hack writing easily can become the norm, which is certainly not very enjoyable, especially from a franchise that took such pride in writing and care as their selling point. That's why people buy Bioware games, much of the time. To be offered incompetent slop is a betrayal of not only the consumer's trust but also their own label.<font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR lavishly loquacious 16:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Entertainment is the canary in the coal mine when it comes to critical thinking. It's the media that most people see willingly and accept at face value. If people are not encouraged to think critically and demand entertainment that makes sense, it just supports a culture where they don't use critical thinking in anything else. Sure, it's 'just' a video game, but I see it as a victory that a ton of people notice somebody taking advantage of them, formulating actual, solid reasons why about why the story was terrible from an analytical standpoint, and going on to explain why such treatment is unacceptable. If people don't bother to do that about stuff they do like, why should they bother to do it about things they may have less interest in, like politics or even news media? <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR longissimus non legeri 14:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That's why I don't listen to the radio. I haven't found non-mainstream video games or movies though. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Putting this into context: When even the creators of Lost are laughing at the finale, you know something's up. Osaka Sun (talk) 14:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, it seems that fans are going to get what they want.
 * Who wants to beet the that the new ending will turn out to be one of these? Ryantherebel (talk) 15:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with the "other endings sucked too" argument is that there have been multiple occasions in which they've been revised and achieved spectacular results. Blade Runner immediately comes to mind. We can only wait and see. Osaka Sun (talk) 15:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * True, but then again this could devolve into another "Han shot first" situation.Ryantherebel (talk) 17:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Dispite what some folk here have been saying, this is not an issue of poor story telling. Whether you like the ending or not has nothing to do with the story telling. Story telling is about, obviously enough, how the story is told. In a video game, this is achieved by game play. Actually playing the game is how the story unfolds. A poor story is better recieved if its telling is done well and a good story is undone if told in a shitty way. The story in all 3 Mass effects wasn't that spectacular in the first place but they were jolly good games, which is kind of the point of a video game. I am no Teabagger, but everyone complaining about the ending to the extent that they are, are 'entitled whiners'. I have purchased and played the mass effect games, enjoyed the experience without being too taken up in the story. That in no way gives me any right to demand it ends in a way that i would prefer as I do not 'own' the story, I did not create teh story, and I had no input into it. The creators of mass effect have sole right to decide how it ends, if I don't like their decision, well too bad. Its not like it makes the having played the game any less enjoyable than it was. The only thing I have any right to if I don't like the ending is to question whether I purchase anymore of their products, and quite frankly, with a video game, the strength of the story is a very distant second to game play. Honestly, can you think of any other medium where people didn't like the ending and demanded the creators change it to suit their whims? Have you ever thought about contacting an author to get them change their artistic vision to something you;d prefer? Or a film? People do I know, but they are genuinely considered the worst, most obsessive people in the world of fandom. The only similar thing I can think of is with star wars, but thats more to do with George Lucas continually fucking with his vision after it was already finished. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @Osaka: The bladerunner example is probably not a good one for your purposes. The 'Directors Cut' of the film was what originally intended. The cut that was originally released had the voice over and the tacked happy ending precisely because the test audience didn't like the intended ending and wanted things explained and 'closure' (a much over rated concept). Bladerunner is the perfect example why the creative force behind their works should tell anyone who thinks they know better how 'it should end' to fuck offAMassiveGay (talk) 19:30, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * BioWare openly brags that they tweaked the series from fan input, so take that from what you will. People were told they would get choices and got the opposite. And comparing this entire situation to Lucas' tinkering borders a bit on red herring; nothing really needed to be portrayed differently (give or take the graphics) nor did anyone want it in the first place.


 * Some of the main writers are actually coming out to admit something went seriously wrong in the development process and Shepard's VA doesn't find a big deal changing it either. Regardless of what you or I believe in "altering art," the company's in a do or die situation right now. RedLetterMedia wants to get in on the fun, and we all know what he did to the Star Wars prequels. Osaka Sun (talk) 22:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, my point with star wars was that it is not the same. Secondly, I'm sure Bioware did listen to fan input. I bet you could point dozens examples of it in ME3 and countless others. Nothing wrong with that.It doesn't mean they yield to crazy request from every rabid fan. That way lies Snakes on a plane and I am sick and fucking tired of these muther fucking snake on this mother fucking plane. Thirdly, 1 writer (who may or may not have actually said what he said) does not equal some writers. And so what if they did? Doesn't make em right and creative differences are abound all over the place. And fourthly, the ending is not universally loathed. There is a pro ending campaign going on. Just what is the problem with ending? Ive yet to play the third instalment yet (i'll probably get it in a month on my birthday). From what Ive read it boils down to not having a particularly happy ending, and not tying up loose end. Kinda like why the test audience didn;t like the original cut of Bladerunner, if we use your earlier example. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And I have no idea of what Red letter media is or what it did to the star wars prequels. And I have even less idea as to why I should care.AMassiveGay (talk) 23:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You have to be kidding me.


 * And here is the top plothole, as simple as you can possibly get. Try not to cringe. On Blade Runner, that's my bad. Charles Dickens and Arthur Conan Doyle are better examples.  It's not just the gaming medium that does it. Osaka Sun (talk) 00:01, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright. Now this "controversy" is getting a little bit too ridicules.Ryantherebel (talk) 02:08, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That meme does not describe the ending(s) I have read about through various spoilers. Not surprising as most memes seem to have fallen out of someones arse. From reading spoilers, the ending don't sound too bad. Certainly par for the course as mass effect goes. I repeat: entitled whiners. As for Dickens, that he chose to change the ending of great expectations was his choice to make (and in my opinion, the wrong choice - the happier ending does not fit well with what went before). What didn't happen was a bunch whiney fans throw a massive hissy fit because Pip didnt get to ride out into the sunset. As for conan doyle, he didn't change any endings. Sherlock still fell off a mountain. He was just resurrected later because Conan Doyle couldn't come up with a better character for hounds of the baskerville. I should stress, that if you genuinely don't like, you are perfectly entitled to be pissed off by it. But reaction of these folk is not warranted. As Ryantherebel says, it is ridiculous. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, donating for charities (another one announced today) to beg for a company to change their practices is definitely entitlement. It being overblown is debatable, but to say there's nothing wrong with the ending is outright ignorance at its finest.  I barely even scratched the surface.


 * Stop releasing the escape hatch. Osaka Sun (talk) 20:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry i forgot - the quality of a story is an entirely objective thing. Waht a fool I've been. The charity thing is just to avoid looking like pricks. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and you can call Twilight a brilliantly written saga while making a straight face. And nearly a hundred grand raised so far? Pricks indeed.


 * Honestly, I wouldn't give a fuck if the ending was even more melancholic if they were able to rationalize it properly. Osaka Sun (talk) 20:53, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Death of a star, caught on film
I'm sure you science types have alraedy seen this, but it's making the facebook rounds, so wanted to share it. You can see the supernova "go off" in the video. What a though; something that big just blowing up. one second it's a dark unseen star, and 10 minutes (I think that was the interval the camera was on) there is the nova! supernova<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot    What do cats dream about? 23:56, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, it doesn't show that at all. The video is composed from images taken over two days. 10 minutes is the exposure time for each frame, as this stuff is extremely faint. See the author comment on the video's page on Flickr: "Though I would very much have liked to capture it in live action, where it shows up on my image was the earliest I could capture for the after observations ( Mar16, evening). So the SN actually happened a few hours before it shows up in the frame."--ZooGuard (talk) 00:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Several hours? I think physics would say that the supernova actually happened years before.... -- Seth Peck (talk) 15:01, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What I looove though is the discovery image. The huge overexposed-blob-with-diffraction-spikes is Mars. See if you can spot the supernova. :) --ZooGuard (talk) 00:33, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the title was "Someone's posting celebrity snuff videos to the saloon bar, eh? Not Steve Irwin, is it?" /Bad person. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 16:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm just kinda bummed it wasn't the actual "death" as ZooG corrected me on. :(   I've tried to google how often these happen, at least as far as ones close enough for us to really see, and they are "common".  what I'm not finding is what "common" means.  --[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 16:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You can see a brief list of the ones for 2011-2012 here. Most of these are really faint, though. So, "common" == "one every few days". The brighter ones are more rare, of course. (The magnitude is the column before the first CBET lists. Do I need to say that the larger the number, the fainter is the source? :)--ZooGuard (talk) 22:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

...Teehee...Chick-Fil-A...
I like their waffle fries. Now Chow Down.--Dumpling (talk) 05:01, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * For the record, I would have sex with their spicy chicken sandwich. Occasionaluse (talk) 12:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Private investors would do well if they could buy out that company (I know, it isn't publicly traded, so that would be difficult) and then OPEN IT ON FUCKING SUNDAYS. Hobby Lobby, too.  -- Seth Peck (talk) 15:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But that's a sin! On Sunday if you don't sit in your house and do nothing, you'll anger God for not being lazy. That's the Conservative Way. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 15:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Buttheads of Metapedia
A butthead --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 09:49, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Alas, someone is intelligent there. --SupernovaExplosion (talk) 09:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you were far too obvious here and here. --Tweenk (talk) 22:42, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Spam Weirdness
Okay, I know spammers randomly generate names, but this is just odd.

Let's pretend my real last name is, oh, Tralfaz, and my real first name is Eduardo. And my e-mail address is eduardotralfaz@hotmail.com. (Those are all made up. My real first and last names are relatively common.)

So, I get spam that calls out "Eduardo Tralfaz". (Things like "Dear Eduardo Tralfaz, if you just send some money to Nigeria, we'll send you Viagra.") Nothing unusual with a random name generator.

But I've been getting an inordinate amount of spam calling out "Miguel Tralfaz." The weird thing is Miguel Tralfaz is my half-step-brother. (Dad's adopted son from his first marriage.)

And "Miguel Tralfaz" is a jerk. He cut off almost all contact with my dad when he found his birth father. He calls Dad every few years, if that, maybe visits once in a decade. He's been contacting Dad a little more frequently -- we suspect he's trying to make sure he's in Dad's will. (He is, but just enough so he can't argue he was forgotten. My siblings and I get pretty much everything. Not that it's a lot.)

So, I find it weird that I regularly get spam that references an estranged family member. MDB (talk) 12:14, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * A lot of spammers get addresses by compromising other people's accounts and harvesting the addresses that person has been emailing. Therefore it's entirely possible to get email from someone you know which is spam, please but isn't from their isp. <font color="#777777">Crundy <font color="#00F0A20">Talk nerdy to me 20:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Or maybe "Miguel" has been quoting your email address when registering on porn sites or whatsoever, so you're getting all his spam. 21:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Tch, tch. What have we told you about dragging fights with your boyfriend onto the wiki, Weaseloid?  :-)   21:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh? Pretty much nothing, as I recall.  22:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Architects and Engineers (for 9/11 Troof)
I just noticed we don't have a page for the mother of all 9/11 conspiracy groups, but the Wikipedians have created a truly encyclopedic entry for them. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 16:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So...sixteen hundred architecture and engineering professionals are in complete denial about what it takes to demolish buildings as well as the numerous videos from multiple angles of airplanes flying into buildings? -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:21, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This should be main priority. One of the worst cases of argumentum ad verecundiam I've ever seen. Osaka Sun (talk) 20:25, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I heard a physics professor talking once about how the lion's share of cranks are engineers (which is not to say that most engineers are cranks of course). Basically, they have just enough math and science to be dangerous, but not enough to really know what they're talking about when they venture into, say, a theory of everything. Godspeed (talk) 20:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Your professor isn't the only one to have noticed. Sophie  because liberals  21:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The Salem hypothesis, eh? I always though a creationist claiming scientific expertise was likely to be a dentist. Godspeed (talk) 21:08, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So, I take it, none of them read the NIST investigation into 9/11 and double-checked their math and calcuations like I had to as a project for my Statics and Calculus class in college? If they had, they'd have found that all the math and calculations work out to prove exactly what the official story tells us: that loaded airplanes, not armed missles, are exactly what caused the damage that lead to the Twin towers falling down and that an airliner is exactly what would've caused the damage seen at the Pentagon. Trust me, their math work is very, very sound and any engineer who questions it is willingly ignorant! Conservative Punk (talk) 09:43, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But the planes were actually holograms. So there. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>moral 11:52, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I got a drum set
Remember that topic I made earlier? Well, fuck you.



GodothasArrived ( super crazy fun time! ) 03:28, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * An American Fallacy ( super crazy fun time! ) 03:45, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Also:
 * GodothasArrived ( super crazy fun time! ) 03:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)


 * You want to play with me, learn how to do this. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 03:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * GodothasArrived ( super crazy fun time! ) 04:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You got more up your sleeve than that, ain't ya Foster? Max Roach? Sam Woodyard? Billy Cobham? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 04:22, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * First, you learn to groove. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 16:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This is fucking horrible. Never post again. AceModerator 08:52, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ Тy Serious Business Guy 12:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Everything has to revolve around death metal? Osaka Sun (talk) 09:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, everyone goes through the phase of "my music is superior to yours". Most people grow out of it. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>sshole 11:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Get a real drum kit, none of that electronic kit crap. 12:17, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No one thought of this yet? Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>d hominem 12:55, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Or this guy? 13:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You're not a real musician until you set yourself on fire. Or can do it without an instrument Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>bomination 13:12, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @Osaka: No, but it's my favorite genre and it's the style I ultimately want to play. That's a long way off though.
 * @Armondikov: I doubt that, because most people think that the things they think are better than other things are better than other things.
 * @SuperJosh: Yeah, electric guitars are fucking gay too -- real men play acoustic everything. Plus, I'm poor, and can't afford a 'real drum set' when i'm learning how to play.
 * @Armondikov: Doesn't look constipated enough for TECHNICAL DEATH METAL . GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 17:09, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough if you're just learning to play. For practice they're fine, but they can't beat a real drum kit. I disagree with your electric guitar comment, I've spent the day sitting in my garden playing my Epiphone SG instead of doing coursework. It didn't feel very fucking gay. 17:24, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * How are electronic drums and electronic guitars different? GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 17:26, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you mean electric guitars? [[image:Facepalm.png|20px]]  They're different because they're entirely different instruments working in entirely different ways.  With an electric guitar, as with an acoustic, it's the natural vibrations of the string that create the sound; the electro-magnetic pick-ups transform the vibration into a low level electric signal, which is then amplified to audio levels.  An electronic drum, like an electronic keyboard, is entirely artificial; it has no acoustic basis, just sensors and circuitry.  17:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Liar! An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 17:40, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Good comeback.  17:49, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

@Weaseloid: Best drum battle ever. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 17:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Nutty local "Parents" group
The Parent's Action League: Dedicated to keeping homophobia, ignorance and religious nonsense in our public school system. 10:57, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * WoT won't even let me view the site. Тy eh? 13:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's interesting how they're phrasing everything. They hide the "we hate teh gays" message pretty well. You might easily be forgiven for thinking "hey, I think these guys are great, they're totally right!". But the dog whistle is clearly there. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>narchist 13:50, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What has this got to do with Herr Roux? PongoOrangutans are sceptical 14:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * They're not hiding it all that well when 8 out of 9 of their FAQs relate to homosexuality.  17:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * GAYS GAYS GAYS. I'm so scared.  Guess that means I'm justified in shooting!  At least in florida.--[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 17:38, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The index page sounds almost reasonable... and then on the FAQ page the mask falls off.--ZooGuard (talk) 21:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Alex Jones goes completely round the bend
Wow, he's really losing it. AceModerator 02:20, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I find his mindless followers an even worrying concern. Look at the like bar. Osaka Sun (talk) 10:00, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Nah, not as bad as clockwork elves. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:09, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * true that. That was his shining moment. AceModerator 03:17, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Shining, as in shining turd?
 * Say what you will of Mythbusters, but that's a little too much. Osaka Sun (talk) 10:00, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether I should explain it to you or whether you're making a joke. Hmmm... GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 03:57, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I saw the clockwork elves one yesturday and was fascinated. See they tell the elites to build this, take over the world, and so forth and the elites believe them and thus are supercharged with motivation. You guys know them, don't you? That is why you are bringing this up, because you have your spies honed in on me lumenator, right? The only thing that might stop them/you is something to do with the Junian Creator God. Hmmm what is left of my universe if my trust in my culture is removed? Who created the universe? The creator of my culture?
 * Alex is a pretty cool guy. I must admit since I haven't seen UncleHo or TheImperor lately I've had to look elsewhere for direction. Sadly Chomsky and Ron Paul won't need me when I'm 64. They are grandpas with one foot into the nothingforeverworld. Now with Jones in my corner I'm even thinking of getting off homosexuality.
 * Chomsky vs Jones was meh. Chomsky said the usual till they argued about gun control then Chomskies time was up (man needs limits) and left and Jones called him NWO and hurled insults. These "right" wingers can be so impolite but I think yeah gun control doesn't allow us to protect ourselves from criminals who might be working with the government, you know minorities, thieves, or something... you know the last time I looked at Obama/Biden site groups there was no "nurses" group or "gen44" group. Now if you are over 40, straight and not transexual, lacking in "faith", having ancestors from Europe (and probably quite a bit left), Canada, Australia, or UnAmerican America, and you are not "latino", "jewish", nurse or military, there is no group for you! He hath prepared a place for you, Alex (who was 38 yo last I checked). Unicow (talk) 04:07, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Тy rant 04:09, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

One has to wonder
how many of these people who complain its the government fault x did y; actually voted. -- il' Dictator   Mikal  04:31, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * To be fair, one vote won't do anything. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 05:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

mitt romney begs to differ-- il' Dictator   Mikal  05:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless your vote is the tie-breaker, it's pretty insignificant. The best way to actually make a difference is to convince other people to vote -- but still, unless you can convince a lot of people, it's still not going to do that much. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 05:34, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * i wasnt exactly talking about just one person love-- il' Dictator   Mikal  05:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that if you're going to blame people for not voting, you have to take into account that their vote most likely won't do shit. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 05:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So, the only meaningful democracy is one with only three voters? Exactly the sort of thing I'd expect from a teen nihilist.   08:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Nihilist, that argument is junk. Democracy works on having large numbers of voters, all of whom get to have a say, & all of whose votes are counted. "My vote won't count for anything because there are large numbers of voters" is a silly way of viewing it.  09:49, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Lock the doors. Block the roads. Turn the lights down low. Here's the girl. Here we go. The voting mass is number one .
 * The vote isn't what any of our democracies are about really. "We'll put it to a vote and then do whatever the voters decide" is direct democracy aka mob rule, which a handful of us use for minor decisions mostly to cause mayhem (e.g. the ridiculous dry/wet divisions in the US). The only really valuable thing delivered by democracy is the routine bloodless transition of power. Military dictator A probably has more followers than military dictator B, but because their mechanism for seizing power tends to involve lots of dead people this is clearly worse than our method. But the results between transitions? Nothing has changed. If you want to change policy, and not just avoid bloodshed, don't focus on voting. Go out there and change people's minds. If you want tolerance for something you are, go out and be a good example as visibly as you can. If you want cleaner schools make sure to tell everybody at every opportunity about how filthy the schools are. There is no checkbox on your US Presidential Election paperwork for "Schools are too clean/ too dirty/ just right" but if everybody knows the schools are filthy sooner or later both your candidates will be looking for ways to fix it. 82.69.171.94 (talk) 10:45, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Voting is just the bare minimum that you'd expect from someone who genuinely cares. At the end of the day, a vote is usually between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, and yes, one vote when one side already leads by a million is meaningless. But that's not the point of it, if 50% of the eligible franchise is apathetic then, in fact, those votes could mean something. They just have to all be taken into account. It's about canvassing opinion, and for that as many as possible is the best, rather than a case of whether one single vote means something in isolation. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>bomination 11:46, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing is, "one vote DOES matter".  simply because millions of people vote, and at the time your vote seems insignificant, isn't actually the real situation.  if everyone said "my vote doesn't matter", then no one would vote, and a hand ful of people would make select our representatives.  [[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 16:08, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But everyone isn't saying that. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 16:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Votes do matter, but it's who the masses vote for that matters, not who you personally vote for. PsyGremlin  ( super crazy fun time! ) 16:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * well, if you want to go conspiracy, that already happens anyways. and if you look at the number of people voting; it already is a "handful" deciding who leads 300 million people, because not even half tend to vote unless its a presidential election.(source i used gives a decreasing number currently in the 30%'s for non-pres election)-- il' Dictator   Mikal  16:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, the way to make a difference would be to convince a large number of other people to vote. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 16:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Elections are essentially a. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 17:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @ American Fallacy: "" You know those masses?  They're made up of lots of individual people (including good old "" and friends), all of whom can choose whether or not to vote & who to vote for.  "" What a radical idea!  You know what we should call it?  Election campaigning.  And you know why it would work?  Because that large number of people is made up of lots individual people (look, there's "" again [[image:wave.gif]]), all of whom can choose whether or not to vote & who to vote for.    17:47, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No shit. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 17:49, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Good comeback. 17:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing you said contradicts, or even argues against, anything I said, so there's nothing to give a 'comeback' to. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 17:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm arguing against your contention that who "you personally" vote for doesn't matter or make a difference. 18:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the 'masses' are made up of individual people, and if you add or subtract one, or two, or hundreds, it probably won't make a difference. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 18:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. How do you identify which voters are making a difference & which ones aren't?  18:17, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. Maybe i need to rethink this. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 18:19, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe is the wrong word love-- il' Dictator   Mikal  18:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to rethink here, no single vote matters, as no specific single vote can be a tie-braker. As only the sum of votes matters in a vote every vote matters and at the same doesn't if the lead is isn't one single vote. It's a brain wrecker. Also, you are all wrong, the best way to make a difference is to hire an army of lobbyists and lobby the living shit out of the whole parliament. Ask the RIAA, they know. -- 18:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the best way to make a difference is terrorism ONE / TALK 20:28, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I suggest the people who say that no vote matters should look up the Tragedy of the Commons.-- 20:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Tragedy of the commons is a subset of the tyranny of small decisions. Lrn 2 political economy, n00b. :P Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Mikalos, you're premise is bogus. When 54% vote for Reagan, or 62% vote for Nixon because they feel its the government's fault x did y, the anti-democratic mob screams for decades afterward how stupid the voters really are. nobsWe Are the 91.6% (still employed)!!!! (88.6% with a realistic Laborforce Participation rate ) 00:35, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * -- il' Dictator   Mikal  00:43, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * GodothasArrived ( super crazy fun time! ) 00:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

How to get people to vote!
A while back there was some guy here who wanted to somehow use us to start a "rewrite the constituion" campaign; where his idea of a good government was to somehow mash the Us sytem and British system into one, and one of his ideas in that was "If you dont vote, you arent a citizen". I think this extreme action will work!-- il' Dictator   Mikal  19:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * See wp:Donkey vote for why enforced voting can be a bad idea. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>pathetic 21:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Dude, what if, like, nobody voted? Remember the time we all decided not to do homework in Mrs. Grundy's class? It would work the same way. Think about it, man... Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * How about we just scrap the entire concept of democratic government and privatise everything. Then there's no need for the tyranny of the majority, people just pay for the laws they want to affect them. Scarlet A.png<font color=#CC0033>postate  10:42, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That's pretty similar to what that "rewrite the constitution" guy was saying: you opt in to citizenship which means paying taxes, voting, obeying laws & being protected by the law, or you can opt out & pay nothing & you're not even under the government's jurisdiction. 11:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, how does one "opt out" of all the other, less avoidable government services? Like public roads and clean air?   11:27, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Dunno. The guy was a moron, & has moved on.  His opus is here: Essay:Second Constitution of the United States.  11:43, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @ADK: Been reading some lately? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The New Statesman once had Alan put forward legislation that would give people the right to forfeit paying poll tax (if they earn under £20,000 a year) if they also give up the right to vote. X Stickman (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Free Jesus Camp
Prolly for Merkins only. Get it here - legally. -- PsyGremlin  14:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * why would a pubic hairpiece want to free Jesus Camp ? who's holding it hostage ? Hamster (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I couldn't watch the video on account of not being a Merkin, but I heartily endorse freeing Camp Jesus. 17:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I got a popup requesting a sign in but a refresh removed it. Not bad. Unlike Netflix/Silverlight it doesn't require Windows/Mac/Android/Etc. DownloadHelper still can't snag it however, those sneaky bastards must have done something to deprive us. Unicow (talk) 06:06, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Killer sore throat, need advice.
Please have sympathy on me. I need advice. I have a killer sore throat, it came on suddenly 2 nights ago. It's so painful, I can't sleep. It is accompanied by some flu-like symptoms, cough, aches, sneezing, stuffy nose. Does anyone know of a home remedy that will help? Tylenol did nothing. :-( Thank you in advance. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 00:26, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Try drinking herbal green tea, but make sure you get it from a real Asian market. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 00:28, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Go see a fucking doctor to rule out an infection. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 00:31, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I really think xe should drink some herbal green tea. I did that once and it worked miracles a couple days later. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 00:34, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ahh... starving student here, no sort of health plan whatsoever, can't afford a doctor. I think I'll get over it in time, but need immediate relief. Nihilist, the tea takes a couple of days to work? Thanks for the suggestion, but I need something that works right away. :-( If the green tea was infused with some codeine or something, that would help. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 00:42, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I was just being a parodist asshole. Sorry. GodothasArrived  ( super crazy fun time! ) 00:43, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ooooo... were you? That completely went over my head. (like many things do, I'm afraid). I thought you were being genuine. :-( Oh well, I'll suffer in silence then. blah. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 00:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What, your university doesn't have a walk-in clinic or a student health insurance plan? P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 00:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not in a University, I'm in a stupid community college. (2 year program) So, no health plan whatsoever, and don't even think of getting a toothache and have to try to find a dentist who won't charge too much to treat you. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 00:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If you just need a quick anti-inflammatory and you have no actual medicine, tea with honey works in a pinch. It works for me, anyway, and I am pretty sure it's got an active compound in it that helps. I need to do more research on exactly how it works, though. Stupid useless hold-hands-kumbiya-herbal-meds sites at the top of google results... :( <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR longissimus non legeri 00:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Tea usually works for me, I get this all the time. Тy YAUA 01:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec)Or water, just plain water - and plenty of it. Swelling is an infection. You have to wash it out and/or kill the remnants of it from coming back. Also, look at personal habits, such as hand washing or what cup you drink out of; this could be some ongoing matter that you keep reintroducing into your system before you've gotten rid of it. nobsWe Are the 91.6% (still employed)!!!! (88.6% with a realistic Laborforce Participation rate ) 00:48, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec) Stir as much sugar as you can into a glass of bourbon and water for the sore throat. Drink as many glasses as needed.  (It will help with the sleep too.)  For the stuffed-up nose, go to your university's rec center and sit in the steam room or sauna. Godspeed (talk) 00:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Rec center? Are you joking? It's a community college! We don't even have a cafeteria. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 00:59, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I lied. We do have a cafeteria. I was just being overly-dramatic, as usual. Trying to get more sympathy. :p But our cafeteria is not a place you would want to eat, basically they have over-priced vending-machine type stuff (small bags o' chips, reheated frozen burritos, etc.) On the other hand, we definitely do not have a rec room/sauna type place. Can't write more now (yes, you're welcome) as the roommate says he needs all the bandwidth for some reason.. which means it will slow down my computer to un-useable speed. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page 01:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there swelling in the mastoid, the sinus just beneath your ear? nobsI'm not a doctor but I play one with the girls 01:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Fuck nobs and fuck his shit advice. Really. 90% of sore throat in adults is caused by viral infection; the common fucking cold. Hydration, while great, is not going to wash the evil humors away or kill anything. Christ. Symptomatic relief: Tylenol, or Ibuprofen, not to exceed recommended doses. Over-the-counter cough drops with topical anesthetic can numb things fairly well for the short term (minutes rather than hours). Over-the-counter cold remedies combine pain relief and decongestant or anti-cough medications; if you go that route, watch out for 'hidden' Tylenol (acetominophen) so you don't accidentally overdose yourself by combining it with the pure stuff. Nonmedical relief: honey and lemon juice with some water, hot. Popsicles. Ice cream. Chicken soup. Steam or cool mist. 10% of the time sore throat can be caused by strep infection, which still normally clears up within five days. Indications to go to the ER despite having no money: progressive fever, difficulty breathing, inability to swallow, skin rash, stiff neck/inability to move jaw, swelling of tongue.--Martin Arrowsmith (talk) 02:35, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for setting that straight. And here I always believed in Mephistopheles wisdom, "It is a rule with spirits and with devils, By the same way they enter they depart." I was wondering how he could piss all that water out of his throat. nobsI'm not a doctor but I play one with the girls 02:44, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. Tylenol kills viral infection? didn't know that. nobsI'm not a doctor but I play one with the girls 02:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * P.P.S. And for all your dime store advice, you should understand the differnaced between relieving symptoms and curing an ailment. nobsI'm not a doctor but I play one with the girls 02:50, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as one who had a heart attack on Thursday, was airlifted to hospital, had a stent inserted and was home two days almost to the hour later, may I say: "Hah! sore throat!" Scream!! (talk) 02:08, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I was going to say I'm sneezing a lot from allergies this spring, but that seems less impressive now. Doctor Dark (talk) 02:36, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * My ferrets both had a partial stomach blockage this week. A bit of laxative cleared it up eventually.  Probably wouldn't work on a sore throat though.  Or a heart attack.   03:11, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

This is somewhat on a tangent, but recently I got a weak flu that came with low fever and shivers. I couldn't sleep that night, and the clinic was closed for the night, so I decided to play video games instead and go in the morning if it was still bad. I could barely type 'I have the flu' in an e-mail to my professors I was shivering so hard, but as soon as I settled down and picked up a controller to play some nice relaxing Okami, the shivers subsided. I don't actually believe that video games subdue flu symptoms: that's a load of crap. But I wonder what happened. Did I placebo myself? <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±KnightOfTL;DR lavishly loquacious 03:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Concentrating on something can't have hurt. Peter tanquam ex ungue leonem 03:09, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I am going in wednesday for an angio thing for my heart. They shove a needle in near your scrotum until its near the heart and then look through it with binoculars. Something like that anyway.
 * sore throat ? an antibacterial mouthwash or dilute hydrogen peroxide may help. Stuff like nyquill or any of the cold and cough things should do something. Sucrets are good or hot lemon and honey. stay warm, get some sleep, avoid people Hamster (talk) 04:07, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "Avoid people" is always good advice. Now get off my damn lawn. Doctor Dark (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds to me a bit more than a comon cold, In which case you should probably see a doctor. The worst sore throats I ever had were tonsillitits as a kid and wp:mononucleosis as a student (so bad they put me in isolation hospital), also you are probably at the prime age to catch it. Mononucleosis can affect people in different ways, mine was severe but relatively short, others I have known had low-grade but lasting 6 months or more, so ignore generalised advice. OK so you don't have a health plan, ask your pharmacist they should know which are the best otc reemedies to alleviate the symptoms. Plenty of fluids to keep the mucus flowing, Chloraseptic spray to numb the soreness and flu-type remedies to reduce congestion, inflammation and soreness. I found Dutch liquorice to be both good as an expectorant and a soothing suck (the best was an old fashioned Dutch remedy - Oma's Drop Siroop) you may be able to find US immigrant products that are equivalent, but make sure it is real liquorice not liquorice flavour. 10:19, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't know if it's too late for any help, but because I'm on MTX I find that I get a lot of sore throats. What helps is honey and lemon juice dissolved in hot water with cayenne powder added. Add as much cayenne as you can stand, bearing in mind that it has to come out as well as go in. It works, as the cayenne numbs the soreness in your throat. The disadvantage is that it doesn't work for long, but you can always top up when needed as it's impossible to overdose on the above ingredients. You can also shove the mixture in a handy bottle to take with you and swig cold.-- 11:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I recommend whisky. You can make a basic toddy with scotch, orange juice, boiling water, honey & a pinch of ginger.   15:19, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, avoid people. Sucking dick, while it can reduce the risk of cp:Gay bowel syndrome, can transmit viral infections. nobsI'm not a doctor but I play one with the girls 18:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for sharing Rob, it's always good to learn from the experience of others. 18:30, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I survived last night, but it wasn't fun. I took the advice of many people here (thank you all) and did the following: soaked in a hot tub (at home), then at intervals throughout the night, took Dayquil, Robitussin cough syrup, Excedrin, tea with honey and lemon, (I didn't have any cayenne pepper in the house and was too ill to go to store) chicken bouillion cubes dissolved in hot water (about 3 times), another hot soup, more tea, cough drops. Then, taking someone else's advice to divert my mind off the pain with an activity (video games, etc.) I watched a movie: "Aftershock", a Chinese film with English subtitles - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1393746/ or http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/aftershock_the_imax_experience/  That was a great movie! The pain returned every 3 hours or so all through the night, so I was up and down all night taking more medicine, and yes I took it more often than it said to, (instructions said every 4 to 6 hours) but I don't think one night of slightly more Rx than recommended will kill me. I had fever & chills, body aches, etc., but I feel surprisingly better now. Yay, I survived! I just have a slight sore throat now, and I plan to rest all day. I thank everyone who offered good advice. Rob, even you started out with some advice that I paid attention to, along with everyone else's, but then it quickly went downhill... what the hell were those comments about "sucking dick reducing gay bowel disease" about? First, I'm female, second, I'm not gay, and no matter what, you have to know those were some really offensive comments. I've never posted anything negative (or at all) to you, so, what brought that on? And could you please try to avoid posting like that in the future. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page  21:00, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies, it was directed at others in a general context of ongoing blah blah etc. Anyway, you cannot be 100% certain Robitussen and chicken soup helped. Perhaps a prayer request went out on the Prayer Request Hotline and an army of prayer warriors invoked the name of Jesus to heal you. So there would be no way to test the validity of science if these actions ran concurrent with the eating of chicken soup to relieve cold symptoms. This is a fact. nobsI'm not a doctor but I play one with the girls 21:23, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ghengis someone else said cloraseptic too, I'm going to get some next time I'm out. And I want some of that Dutch liquorice. :-) Weaseloid, that sounds good, that's on my list to try now. :-) Thanks again everyone, I plan to save all this advice for next time. <font color="#000066">Refugee <font color = "#00F0A20">talk page  21:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Poor GeeGee! D: I wish I could've helped somehow. FEEL BETTER!!! ALL THE HUGSSSSSS!

Actually everyone that hasn't been feeling well, feel better soon! ^u^ --Dumpling (talk) 21:23, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Geek Street Cred Earned
I saw the Mythbusters Behind the Myths tour yesterday. Fun for kids of all ages! MDB (talk) 09:57, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you get to see anything get blown up while you were there? If not, then it sounds like I'd have been disappointed. 10:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, since it's a stage show, there's limits to what they can do, explosion wise. But I'll say they did bring Buster and use him. MDB (talk) 11:20, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Did they explode a few myths? 11:44, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

"Noam Chomsky" is a lie.
There is no such thing as a "socialist libertarian". It is an oxymoron.

Libertarian = values personal freedom, private property, and minimal inference of the state. Citizens are independent and self reliant. Socialism = No private property, property is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.. Maximize the size of government and government intervention in the lives of its citizens. Citizens are dependant upon the State.

The old man is either cognitively disabled or lying. Moonshot926 (talk) 12:12, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You're a very strange person. If you actually want to start a conversation, rather than just trolling for flames, you might want to link to whatever the hell it is you're talking about. -- 12:28, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @Moonshot. You are politically illiterate & I doubt you have read any Chomsky. 12:35, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Why would i want to read anything from that POS. He supports Hezbollah and denies the Cambodian Genocide. You must also know that Western Europe is being invaded by m00slims. Moonshot926 (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * [[image:bored.gif]] 12:49, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * -- 12:59, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Boring indeed. Because of the quotation marks around the name, I thought that this was about Noam Chomsky being a hoax (or a Reptilian or something).--ZooGuard (talk) 13:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm fallin' for the trolling just for the lulz: "Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism, and sometimes left libertarianism) is a group of political philosophies that promote a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society without private property in the means of production." (Wikipedia) (Socialism=State)=bullshit; (Scoialism=society wide cooperation)=ding, ding, ding! (Libertarianism=Capitalism)=bullshit; (Libertarianism=love of freedom)=ding, ding, ding! (Moonshot=lazy idiot buyin' what lying people tell him)=ding, ding, ding!
 * I can't make it much easier for people that lack reading comprehenssion. -- 13:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

So basically what you are saying is that libertarian socialism is just another word for Anarchy? Moonshot926 (talk) 13:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Left anarchism. Yes.--ZooGuard (talk) 13:16, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

You do know that anarchy can not work and never will work and has not worked ever because. People will always form government natrually all the time. Moonshot926 (talk) 13:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Libertarian Socialism is anarchy, yes, but the absense of a state does not essentially mean the absense of organization. Also if something makes sense or not doesn't say anything if people belief in it, there are some hilarious creation myths out there… -- 13:53, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Campus Crusade for Christ
I've been trying to improve the article on the Campus Crusade for Christ, Hemant Mehta says they alienate people but it's hard to find those alientated people on the web. I guess a large organisation like CCC has the resources to bury criticism so Google doesn't find it. Anyway can anyone help with good links? Proxima Centauri (talk) 12:39, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Reading the above literally:
 * Hypothesis A: Mehta was talking about his subjective opinion/impression of their behaviour.
 * Hypothesis B: People "alienated" by CCC don't bother to make websites decrying their alienation.
 * Both hypotheses are more probable than CCC spending resources to "bury criticism", or at least this kind of criticism. Both are also obvious to any socially literate adult. Are you diagnosed with a condition on the autistic spectrum? It would explain a lot.
 * Reading the above non-literally (i.e. assuming that by "hard to find those alientated people" you mean "hard to find any criticism"):
 * You are probably not using Google correctly. Try limiting the search to large atheist sites and/or forums, such as Freethough Blogs, etc.--ZooGuard (talk) 13:13, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Compared to the anti-pants people and gits with megaphones, they're more irritating here. Тy Yarrr 13:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Gotta say, as much as I'm not a fan of CCC, I'm not thinking they are "deep pockets to bury criticism". even scientology isn't able to do that. --[[Image:Pink mowse.png|25px]]<font face="Estrangelo Edessa"><font color="Blue">Godot     What do cats dream about? 21:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You're talking to someone who believes that professors punish atheists.  21:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Flingbooty fails reading comprehension forever
Moved to RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the clogosphere? Sophie  because liberals  15:21, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Enviromental Question
I heard somewhere that most of pollution in the world is the result of per-industrial waste. How true is that?Ryantherebel (talk) 21:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Per-industrial? Sophie  because liberals  22:02, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. What is "per-industrial waste"? 2. What kind of pollution do you have in mind? 3. What sectors are you including in "industry"?
 * For example, most groundwater pollution is nowadays caused by agriculture (leaching of fertilizer). Most CO2 pollution is caused by electricity generation and transport. It's hard to put these entirely under the "industry" label. --Tweenk (talk) 22:07, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * (EC) Perhaps he means pre-industrial waste, in which case it's probably bollocks; what pollution was there? However, there are problems with early industrial waste when a lot of toxic waste was just buried. Runcorn on the Mersey is known for it's toxic chemical legacy. But we need to specify what  pollution you are talking about because things like greenhouse gases are probably a lot worse but there is probably little modern lead pollution.  Lily Inspirate me. 22:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Human and animal effluent is an amazing pollutant which existed in vast quantities prior to the industrial age and is now rarely a problem outside the very poorest and least governed places. During the horse-drawn era (which continues for a while into industrial) all cities are covered in horse manure. They just learned to accept it, the way people in big cities later accepted the smogs from coal burning. And the period between "Hey, flush toilets are great. How did we live without them?" and the building of huge public sewer systems in the cities is characterised by stench and disease, particularly cholera. But that may very well be nothing to do with whatever Ryan is on about. 82.69.171.94 (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Egypt
Well that's just great.

I expect the far-right blaming "pantywaist" progressives for this soon. Kind of weird for them to consider Mubarak as the "moderate" lesser evil while simultaneously allowing this to happen every day. Oh well. Osaka Sun (talk) 21:48, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

(Moonshot trolling deleted)
 * What the fuck are you on about? Sophie  because liberals  22:03, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you not heard of drone warfare? Mr. Anon (talk) 22:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm getting freakin' tired of that everybody just hears "Islamist" and pees their panties. The Freedom and Justice party wants an "Islamic democracy" (not Republic, Democracy), equally so the Democratic Alliance, of which the FJP is part of. The Al-Nour Party (Salafists) are theocrats, but the FJP already said they aren't going to cooperate with the salafists. A friend of mine that studies Arabic told me he looked over the FJP's program and that it really just matched the right-wing of the Republicans in the US (adjusted for Islam, of course). So the biggest thing one might get is weirdo reference to god in the constitution and optional prayer in public institutions, no second Iran in sight. @Osaka: As long as the Republicans aren't throwing Santorum out of the party for being a creepy theocrat, they should really shut up about it. If Canadian Conservatives ask, give 'em a lecture on how democratic elections work, they don't seem to have gotten that memo. -- 22:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I have been a moody prick.
For sometime now I have been moody, sullen and angry with pretty much every one and every thing. This does not concern me however I have this problem with rage. Sometimes I completely lose my mind and stare into the red mist for too long and it can cause...problems. Case in point was nearly getting arrested at Subway outlet about 10 minutes ago when I freaked out and flipped my lid on some stranger. I had been in the queue for ages as it was the lunch time rush, I was amusing myself with the inanity of Subway staff calling themselves "Sandwich Artists" but I was getting pretty fucking frustrated with waiting and the people around me were bothering me. When it was finally my chance to order, the guy in front of me goes "Hmmm now what shall I have...hmmmmm I'll have, ummm, I think. Oh wait a second...uhhh" I was fucking enraged. We had been standing in line for 10 fucking minutes staring at a huge menu which towered above us so why didn't you decide then instead of fucking around with Angry Birds? Fucking asshole. Then every question he was asked just baffled him further. "Cheese, I have to choose my cheese? Hmmmm". This went on and on through the entire process of making the sandwich. Fuck knows how he managed to feed himself without the assistance of a "Sandwich Artist". Then right at the end, when it was time to pay the clerk said "That'll be $7.00, thanks!" this guy went "Ohhh $7.00? Ummm now where's my wallet" with a completely confused look on his face as if to suggest that the whole needing to use some legal tender in exchange for goods and services never occurred to him. It is about then I broke down and left him have with full vigor and the best obscenities I could muster. I didn't even care about my sandwich, all I wanted was to fucking whack this dude in the head. I ranted about what an inconsiderate fucking douche bag he was, raved about his apparent inability to play by the rules of society. During this a couple of local cops must have walked by or the staff pressed a panic button (some customers had left the store at this point) because they ambled in to see some tall skinny dude in a suit, wearing sunglasses and sweating quite prodigiously, sandwich material all over the floor after he waved his sandwich at me in an attempt to ward me off, berating a guy for holding up the line. Shit man, I was worried they were going to mace me so quickly talked myself out the situation, mumbled an apology and fled to the office. I don't know what happened to my sub but the funny thing is - I don't even like Subway. AceModerator 00:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it is understandable why you'd be annoyed with that; atleast to me, but i have my own issue with anger. But why were you at subwayand not somewhere else if you don't like it?-- il' Dictator   Mikal  00:29, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know what I was doing there to be honest. AceModerator 00:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Man, I'm feeling this so bad. I have been known to lose my shit from time to time in a public forum like this; one has to get on top of these things before getting arrested or accidentally killing somebody in a fist fight. Also, one thing that blows about living in a really small town instead of the big city that I used to live in is that people will recognize and remember you. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 00:39, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Meh, I ain't too worried. I have been in a fight before and know my way around the legal system down these parts. Plus I have a really good lawyer. I'll just avoid that particular Subway from now on. AceModerator 00:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I know I'm going to sound like a total tool for saying this, but I think you might want to get some help. I'm not calling you crazy or bad: it's just that this might actually be something that shouldn't be overlooked. Mental health and psychological soundness are seriously overlooked much of the time and it's really kind of horrific– like some awful guilt trip. The idea that if you go to see help you're admitting you're helpless or a nut or insane when really that's not true. This kind of thing happens to people all the time. Well-adjusted, otherwise OK people. I know this sounds really cheesy and this opinion is often entwined with all sorts of mental woo and stuff, but it's really true: social stigma against seeking sanity help exists. It would really be terrible if this got worse or you made a mistake that you're really regret. :( <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±[[File:knightoftldrsig.png]]KnightOfTL;DR lavishly loquacious 00:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Why should I get help? It's everyone else who sucks. AceModerator 00:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, I didn't know they had Subway in the Third World. P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 01:02, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We do and it serves UN rice and mud. AceModerator 01:08, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I prefer shops with ready made-up sandwiches. I don't like all this pointless choice. If you're a "sandwich artist" - an expert! - shouldn't it be you, not me, who picks out the ingredients that will make a nice sandwich?-- 13:09, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm the same way. I once in my life was in a subway and needed about ten minutes to put a sandwich together (it was so early in the morning that only me and my father were in there, so I'm not one of those people Ace would scream at). If I want a sandwich with salami, salad and hot sauce I really don't want to be asked which kind of those 12 kinds salami, 6 differen kinds of salads and 3 different kinds of hot sauce I want. I just want a bread filled with tasty things and put it in my mouth FFS! There I prefer the backery "belegte Brötchen" things. -- 14:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You guys are stupid. The best thing about Subway is I can easily get a ham sandwich with American cheese, all the vegetables, avocado, mayonnaise and mustard, and salt and pepper. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:38, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Why on Earth would you want American cheese? 14:43, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Because they don't have swiss, and I figure it's the closest thing. I also get cheddar, pepper jack, and mozzarella, and I can never remember any taste difference. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, because I'm a red-blooded American. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 14:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ....They don't have swiss? LEGASP--Dumpling (talk) 14:52, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * More like GASPli. -- 21:21, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You have different cheeses? Finnish Subways only offer 'cheese'. Vulpius (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that Subway's American cheese is not the Kraft shiny orange single squares, but rather "white American" cheese (not to be confused with "White American" cheese). It tastes more like an unstringy version of mozzarella than anything else.  -- Seth Peck (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Captive Audiences
Today, I took a bus back to school from Spring Break, and while I was waiting in line on the bus an elderly lady came up to me and implored me to accept Jesus. She pressed this tract into my hand and went on to ramble for 5 minutes about how the end is nigh and Jesus is coming before I said 'thank you' and she walked away. I wish I had been braver, or snarkier, but she seemed really just a frightened, deluded, confused poor old woman and I didn't want to hurt her. Also she was going to ride on the bus with me for 3 hours and boy that would have been irritating if she sought me out as a target needing her attention. This tract is incredibly insulting to me. Not just because I am an atheist, but because I am a child of a multi-heritage household... including religion. According to both religions that my parents were born into, their marriage is not valid, and by both establishments I am a bastard child and not even the 10th generation of my bloodline will get to heaven (Deuteronomy 23:2). I know that is in the Old Testament, but really if they can pick and choose to quote Leviticus 18:22 at me, I won't give them the liberty of pretending the rest of the Old Testament never happened. Even if I was to convert to whatever she wanted me to convert to, I wouldn't be going to Heaven anyway. Promising people this wonderful reward without understanding that according to the rules some people are going to hell/staying in purgatory by default is disgusting to me. They probably don't even think about it, but sometimes I wonder how in the world they think that it's OK to corner somebody in a situation they can't escape from. In any other situation, we'd call that harassment. I wonder if she'd go up to a crippled man and tell him how great war is. And how she'd react if he told her he lost his legs in Afghanistan. I wish I had been more courageous and had told her that I was doomed even before I was born. If there's anything that scares Christians, it's the idea that their God would throw babies into Hell, that he's not a wonderful and compassionate and loving character. But I just couldn't do it. She was so oblivious. So sweet. She probably doesn't even know what her holy books say. Even though I was a captive audience, I really felt she was the victim... <font face="MS Sans Serif" size="3">±KnightOfTL;DR lavishly loquacious 03:54, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Those passages are hardly commonly mentioned ones, but I see the point. Тy sic semper 04:05, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If want your tract to be taken seriously, subtitling it "Surely I come Quickly" isn't a clever thing to do. all I could think was, "that man's poor wife." P-Foster Talk " "Santorum is the cream rising to the top." " 04:11, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Dude, get your mind out of the New York City sewer. An American Fallacy  ( super crazy fun time! ) 13:40, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Not really a captive audience
On a somewhat related note, I had occasion to go to the Visitors' Center of the DC Mormon Temple last night, since a friend was playing in their "all-Mormon but him and one other" orchestra. I can't help but wonder what the staff there thought of the guy wearing blue jeans and sporting an ear stud, since most of the adult men, and even some of the boys, were in slacks and ties. I will say they were quite polite to me, and I was even politely joking with the nice lady who was counting the attendance -- she had a "clicker" and I remarked as I entered the auditorium, "make sure you click me! I don't want to be unclicked!" Of course, "polite" and "Mormon" are almost synonymous. I did behave, though my nasty side wanted to say, "so, when was it black people developed souls?" I'm sure they have answers prepared for troublemakers, though. MDB (talk) 17:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

101 evidences for cover story
After several bouts of furious editing, referencing and debunking (check out my massive editspam in the revision history), 101 evidences for a young age of the Earth and the universe reached a point where I would consider it up to cover story standard. I incorporated a lot of new wikiresearch, googling, links to scientific papers, and a more rigorous logical analysis, including an additional section which lists which arguments suffer from a specific error.

There are still a few points which are not fully satisfactory. In particular, point 18 could use true debunking of their contentions regarding Australian coal deposits, but this requires advanced knowledge on the particular geographical features under discussion, which I do not have. Point 27 could benefit a lot from obtaining the relevant obscure paper, which I suspect is quote mined. On the other hand, my efforts on the astronomy section turned up some truly unmitigated ownage.

Waiting for comments / suggestions. --Tweenk (talk) 10:36, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I added a bit on the coal but I can't really see what the salt argument [27] is about. Can anyone with academic access get hold of the R.H. Gunn and P.M. Fleming, Australian Journal of Soil Research, Vol.22, 1984, pp. 119Â­134. as I don't want to spend $25 just to refute a creationist bullet point. 16:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and cover story it. There's a lot of good stuff in there, and if you wait until it's "perfect" you'll be waiting forever. -- 18:26, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You done great. Put the "Cover story (please do not archive)" thing on the talk page, and give it a week for stewing and polishing. It's good, but seeing just how much Freeman on the land has improved in the past week (and I'm covering it tomorrow if there's no showstopper objections) suggests to me that a week of peer review is totally worth it - David Gerard (talk) 20:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I wrote a cover story extract for it, just a mildly modified version of introductory paragraphs to better explain what the article is about, just add it to the rotation when you're ready to go live. -- 21:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)