RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive96

HBC
I propose banning them due to repeated edit warring over a fucking drama baiting thread that they fucking insist on having. And when a fucking Mod intervenes because dumping lighter fluid on the fucking fire is a fucking stupid idea, mocking that Mod and effectively telling them that said user should be able to do whatever with such comments as "Did you really just go all caps "Ima moderatah!" ? Step away, man. Your judgment & grasp of your role is fubar at the moment." and "You're the *only* source of drama here. No-one else gives a fuck, collapsed or otherwise. Desist from this power trip." If you want civility, this kind of shit isn't the road to it. 16:43, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you know that HBC was not a sysop? You could have just banned HBC for pi days for edit warring and saved everyone some grief. Bongolian (talk) 01:09, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

In defense or whatever
The collapse template was obnoxious overreach in the first place, and this guff deserves every last bit of mockery it gets:

Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 17:54, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * GrammarCommie - 15:24, 11 March 2020: If we're going to edit war over a collapse template FROM A FUCKING MODERATOR then I'm just going to nuke the whole thing.
 * The only person deserving of mockery here is you. — Oxyaena Harass  18:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure thing, Ms. 14 minute LANCB. I mean, that wasn't funny at all. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 19:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You're not helping your case. 19:52, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

comments

 * They have a history of being an insufferable jackoff. — Oxyaena Harass  18:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, okay 3 month ban at least. I'm realizing with further examination, this is indeed not the first time, and it's pretty much the only content they post.  I apologize for my mistake.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you give other examples, so I can decide whether to reevaluate my vote? Bongolian (talk) 18:38, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Now I'm waffling back the other way now, the random history that changed my mind in the first place included telling nobs to "Shut the fuck up you lying sack of shit" which, let's be honest, is near certain to be warranted. I shouldn't have been so hasty in changing to this vote.  Further review bears out the first belief.  The direct saloon bar trolling really does seem to be this one incident.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:21, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

*No in that I think the correct approach is to tell this absolute dipshit to shut the fuck up. They don't need to be blocked for being a dumbass. They need to made aware of the fact that they're a dumbass. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:11, 11 March 2020 (UTC) The last one seems to be the worst since it involves an ad hominem. It's peculiar that no one's seen fit to make HBC a sysop in 13 years, and HBC only got autopatrolled after 4 years. It's apparently because HBC has not made a single mainspace edit in that whole time. I'm unsympathetic to HBC. The idea that Scream!! has floated, "I don't think RW'd be as good as it is now if he hadn't been here." is completely bogus. Bongolian (talk) 00:59, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Assuming that "Nay" means that I agree with HBC I think that he's perfectly right! Scream!! (talk) 16:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The edit warring is not okay, however. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:12, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I collapsed the thread, when HBC edit warred over that I nuked the thread. I dropped everything the moment that went up because it was a fucking bait post and it was only going to make things more toxic. What the actual fuck more do you want me to do? T^ell them to shut up? And when they refuse? What then? Block them for an hour? And when that fails, what then? 17:47, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * They can just be wrong. If they posted a dozen of these things in a pattern like certain other bad faith assholes I'd be like "sure that's trolling".  But here and now, it's entirely reasonable to just say "God, you're dumb".  Once is open dialog, twice is annoying, doing nothing but is just reveling in provocation.  I think it's reasonable to see obnoxious things I disagree with radically, sometimes.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:53, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Y'all should know that Helena does nothing but provoke and belittle. — Oxyaena Harass  18:28, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Edit warring is not OK, but a single incident does not warrant a coop case in my view. Both parties should try to lay off each other and/or take a walk in nature. Bongolian (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I had negative first impressions of this user's conduct which continued with most of my unpleasant interactions with them, and I like to see consequences for this person's decisions. 19:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you cite anything worthy of mentioning? Bongolian (talk) 19:43, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Really, Bongolian? — Oxyaena Harass  19:59, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Bongolian:, , , . A lot of posts I went through was needlessly talking down to Oxyaena and GrammarCommie, which they can be constructing a case for themselves. There's a few constructive stuff here and there ,  but it's bogged down by the abrasive and condescending comments. This entire thread had three users calling out HBC's behavior where I told HBC to stop.  20:19, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * HBC's such a jackass that we should make a page about her, like we did with Abd ul-Rahman Lomax. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  14:19, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, for Bob's sake, no. This is not ED. To create a page on someone here who is perceived to be a "jackass" would be completely against everything this wiki stands for and I would vaporize such a page on sight and not hesitate to initiate community disciplinary action against the creator. I honestly hope you are joking. Cosmikdebris (talk) 14:35, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I think would agree with me. Right, Oxy? — Jeh2ow  Damn son!  14:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You are free to create yet another version of RationalWikiWiki on another site, but please keep it out of here. Cosmikdebris (talk) 16:08, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not stopping you but I think it's a very, very bad idea. 16:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright, I won't make a page on HBC. Sorry about that. — Jeh2ow Damn son!  16:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Goat

 * I resigned, kill each other or whatever. 18:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I am a bit of a swing vote here because I am undecided. I refuse to sugarcoat this--HBC is a irredeemable jackass who poisons every conversation he is in even when he is making claims, not insults. On the other hand perusing the archives tells me we do not ban people simply for being jackasses, so I would be opposed to it simply on procedural grounds. All things being equal I would vote to ban, to hell with prior precedent, but we do have to consider what precedent we are setting now. Just to show how awkward this could hypothetically be, if we are banning HBC for being creating/contributing to a toxic environment on the saloon bar that drives editors away we should at least consider banning ikanreed, which I gather would be not as popular a suggestion(Perhaps even with me).--Flandres (talk) 19:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't fucking know. Half of this is my fault for not getting involved sooner and not keeping this shit from getting this far. 19:08, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ikanreed is usually constructive and has good points tho, Helena's just an unrepentant jackass. — Oxyaena Harass  19:09, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Just by the way, were y'all aware that HBC (under another name) was, I think, the fourth or fifth rat on Ratwiki. Not that this means anything but it's interesting, innit? Scream!! (talk) 23:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't care. Person can be ancient guard or middle guard or semi fresh tepid guard or new guard, whatever but I'm through being reminded of seniority from others. 00:27, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * OK :-) Scream!! (talk) 00:33, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed, being an old timer grants zero privilege. Consider troll Nobs, who's been here since near the beginning. It's the same as appeal to antiquity or appeal to ancient wisdom, both fallacies. Bongolian (talk) 00:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Didn't mean that HBC should be given any privilege. He's crossed me and mine several times in the past - just thought it was interesting. I don't think RW'd be as good as it is now if he hadn't been here. Scream!! (talk) 00:48, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Appreciate the support, but you're mistaking me for someone else. And yes, length of time here has no bearing on anything, nor have I ever claimed otherwise.
 * Speaking generally, I see no good reason for civility towards thin-skinned partisan zealots who are happy to dish it out to anyone a few inches to the right of them, but who are almost wholly incapable of taking any return fire without having a fucking meltdown. Fuck giving them free rein without the odd poke in the eye. Same goes for any mod on a power trip. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 01:22, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Weirdly for someone high on power I was all too willing to relinquish it. Oh wait, you're throwing accusations around with jack all in terms of evidence. Maybe not do that eh? 01:59, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Cool stories FROM A FUCKING MODERATOR are my favourite. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:16, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Raise your hand if you think I'm a rat on RATionalWiki. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  14:22, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

vote
Wait until the 13th. Votes cannot be started within 48 hours of the case being opened. Pretend ur not all acting batshit insane for a moment and follow procedure. EK (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding some calm to this. Bongolian (talk) 19:21, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Proposal
1) Close the coop case forthwith. 2) can ban HBC for pi days. After that, HBC can cease making ad hominem attacks and edit warring or alternatively get permabanned. 3) I seen no reason for further debate. Bongolian (talk) 02:16, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Knock yourself out, son. But, FFS learn what an ad hom is. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:22, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That's charming: you've just used an ad hominem against me ("son") while claiming that I don't know what an ad hominem is. In this case "son" is a form of name-calling because you don't know my age in relation to your age and you don't know (at least with certainty) my gender. FYI, is generally regarded as a form of ad hominem. Bongolian (talk) 02:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Christ. This is Soundwave all over again. Reading is a thing. Good for you, too. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:47, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Bongolian, you're wrong here about what an ad hominem is. What HBC is actually doing is poisoning the well, altho he's not getting to me in any way. Still annoying, he just doesn't really get to me anymore after the first few insults, I mostly stopped engaging him when I realized there was no point to. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  10:50, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What HBC is doing is trolling. Other than a little Conservapedia old-schoolin' he doesn't appear to do jack shit on the Wiki. Name calling is generally considered ad hominem if directed at devaluing an argument. But there certainly seems to be a point where HBC has no argument left to make and just throws random insults. In this case, yes, it turns into poisoning the well, or not even that, as poisoning the well generally requires a bit of coherence. Either way, who cares, this is pedantic. An asshole is acting like an asshole.
 * That being said, *in this specific instance*, bullshit shit stirring in the Saloon regarding one Democratic presidential primary candidate is instantly troll-collapsed and then removed *by a fucking mod*, and bullshit shit stirring in the Saloon regarding another Democratic primary candidates are not -- hell, shit stirring is even fucking *started* by a goddamn mod ("BUTTCHUG DROPPED OUT!!!!!", I mean, really?). From my perspective, you either allow shit-venting like this to occur at all levels (my personal preference as long as it doesn't descend too far into the abyss), or you don't allow any. Currently the Saloon seems to be "Bernie Bro" selectively enforced shit-venting. That's completely bullshit in my opinion, this turns this place into a "dirtbag left" Wiki that is not open to any opinions that don't worship the ass of Bernie Sanders and various other hard-left ideologies. Soundwave106 (talk) 13:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I only started cracking down on shit stirring and general toxicity yesterday. And if you'll go through the edit history for both myself and the Saloon, you'll notice that before I resigned I went after one of ikanreed's posts as well. HBC just happened to be the one I went after first. 13:22, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Bernie isn't even hard left He's a fucking socdem, he'd be a centrist in Europe. Centrists are disingenuous shitbags, with Biden all we'll get is a return to conditions which led to Trump in the first place. This wiki leans progressive, we're not centrists, and we want genuine change. We are frustrated with the blatant feet dragging of libs and centrists, people suffer while we debate whether or not healthcare is a human right (hint: it is). — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  13:47, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not the place to debate politics. 14:58, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Currently the Saloon seems to be "Bernie Bro" selectively enforced shit-venting". This is not true. While I have expressed displeasure at Biden's policies, I have told ikanreed to knock off his comments (which he doubled down in response to my disappointment) and modhatted the Saloon Bar twice in response to general hostility. I haven't seen hostile remarks then. 15:04, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ban me for mod sass if you want, but I'm not sure you're succeeding in your goal of cooling things off, given the nature of the underlying 'debate' such as it is. I can avoid posting for a day or two, but then I come back and the status quo is still "Don't discuss the most important political moment in possibly the last thirty years" the result is I'm still just as pissed off after "cooling off".  We can't pretend things that matter a lot don't matter for the sake of getting along.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:33, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * For "sass", that comment is fine, I don't have a problem with attitude here. I agree that the stakes are high and it's an important election season. I really dislike Biden, he shows no promises whatsoever, I don't see him as deserving any inch of power, and my family's (well-off suburban) feeling the pinch of higher costs of living (property tax of thousands/year and only going up each year is gradually choking us and we're planning on selling the house starting this year) with stagnating wages compounded with the frustration of my city district voting majority Biden, who I feel won't fix our situation. I still however just don't see the reason to disparage others here, even if they're making personal attacks. I have reasons to be angry at Biden and frustrated at the primary voters, but I'd feel bad for taking it out on others especially people I grew to like around here, so I guess I just am not happy seeing the same people fight each other. 15:45, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Anyhow for any reason, why aren't you insulting me? You've been treating me with respect. I'm not surprised you are but, like, I think there's value in civility. I wouldn't be as willing to discuss my problems and approaches if I was insulted myself. 16:03, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You're acting like anytime I disagree with someone I insult them. I make the strenuous case that there are very somewhat specific circumstances where it's warranted.  I don't pick stupid hills to die on.  ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * He really doesn't. Also, why all this "I really dislike" etc.? I like any democrat when the alternative is Trump. LBJ was a truly horrible person. And yet, big social legislation happened anyway. Ariel31459 (talk) 19:10, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I can work out a pattern when you start flaming (intellectual dishonesty for starters) though in the end, I'm not a mind reader, I can never be wholly certain. I'm sometimes nervous dropping comments. I remember I set off one of the users years ago when I was still very timid trying to interact with the community and that put me off the wiki for several months. 21:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Can we Talk About Oxyaena For a Second?
She permabanned HBC without a coop vote. While permabanning a fellow sysop is not serious, HBC is not a sysop. Oxy took unilateral punitive action without the sanction of the mob, in clear violation of the Coop guideline to not "block other users, remove their comments, or remove their user rights. If you think someone's done something wrong, raise a coop case -- don't act unilaterally." Oxyaena has to be sanctioned, at least long enough to cool her heels. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:35, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Oxy should get a slap on the wrist with a wet noodle for doing that which is going to be done eventually anyway. HBC is effectively a troll, as I outlined above. From our troll page, "Making itself the main topic of interest or discussion." … "Rarely a troll may do small amounts of productive work to disguise its true intentions." Bongolian (talk) 05:16, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please get a consensus first before committing to permabanning HBC. Thanks. 05:42, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Bongolian (talk) 06:41, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There already was a consensus to ban, at least that's how I read it. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  09:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Voting hadn't begun yet, and all punitive action was leaning towards a temporary block at most. 13:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I've successfully punished Oxyaena with a wet trout. Now back to the coop case. CoryUsar (talk) 04:49, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Do nothing, just close this damn case

 * 1) This site is a fading shadow of itself. Nutty Roux (talk) 13:35, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) You mean because we no longer tolerate abuse and bigotry on here? — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  13:50, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

3-day suspension for HBC for edit warring

 * 1) Yay. 20:55, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Yes. Bongolian (talk) 02:31, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) Enough time to get people to cool down. RoninMacbeth (talk) 05:24, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes. Spud (talk) 13:29, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 5) Yep. Cosmikdebris (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 6) Yes. The Crow (talk) 19:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 7) Only on condition that HBC is caught doing it again and being unnecessarily discourteous in general, to make sure the suspension happens appropriately and not while they decide to be inactive. And it they repeat the behavior, that's another suspension. 19:36, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think this suspension should put HBC on notice. This didn't really need to be a coop case in the first place. Bongolian (talk) 20:32, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) If HBC does it again, she will be permanently barred from RW. — <font color="Red">Jeh2ow <font color="Blue">Damn son!  02:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Yes. Magic Master (talk) 05:12, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

3-month suspension for HBC for ad hominems/poisoning the well/trolling, whatever

 * 1) Yup. — <font color="Absolute Zero">Oxyaena <font color="Magenta">Harass  11:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Goat

 * 1) Basically an abstain vote. If for no other reason than to pretend I was paying attention. CoryUsar (talk) 04:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) shit-venting describes this whole affair perfectly. EK (talk) 11:34, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Results
9 votes in favor for a 3-day suspension of HBC is the overwhelming choice. There's not enough voting going on to expect that this would change at this point. Bongolian (talk) 17:07, 14 March 2020 (UTC)