Conservapedia talk:What is going on at CP?/Archive53

Dog bites Man & Susan's fooled!
Guard dogs R great but CP's guard dog just blocked HoiPolloi because he'd been tracking & reverting a vandal for over 100 edits. Worth of Wigo but I don't know what to put. 19:08, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And he reeturns as User:Betteryouthanme & carries on the good work ONLY TO GET BITTEN AGAIN! 19:11, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This is WIGO gold, but how to phrase it?? Argh! 19:13, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Not so sure, looking at this I'd say Hoipoloi was doubling up the vandalism. The vandalbots seem to be out in force tonight. PsygremlinWhut? 19:17, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ha! Fooled me once, - FOOLED ME TWICE! Mea Culpa! It was a tag team & I didn't notice - that'll take some work to clean up! 19:21, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Andy's throwing around legal threats again, I see. PsygremlinWhut? 19:27, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Linky? 19:31, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This is the best I can offer for now - not sure how to URL individual block logs (hangs head in shame). PsygremlinWhut? 19:33, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Not to worry, Got Piccy of Recent Changes. 19:34, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * As for isolating individual block entries, you can do this or this.  03:20, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

CP Webmaster
Just wondering, does anyone see the top of this page and think of    &mdash; Unsigned, by: SirChuckB / talk / contribs
 * Ooh, that's creepy. Just like the "Decider in Chief"!  ħ uman  01:43, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I tried to add him to my "sysops I've been blocked by" collection (see my userpage), but I got zapped by DanH instead. Damnit Dan, I already have you! 01:49, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Nice concept. We should make collectible cards for users to display and trade!  ħ uman  03:07, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Why does CPWebmaster remind me of that episode of Cheers where Norm is running a business, interior designing or something, and he wanted to get the workmen to work harder without them hating him so he created a fictitious boss. When he wanted to tell them something bad he would go through a door, yell alot and come out and tell them it is not his fault but they all had to workover time or similar. 3.14159 03:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, to be honest didn't the "Fearless Leader" thing come about as a joke back when most of the original crew here still had accounts at CP? There was a lot more honest joking around at that point. --Kels 06:31, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * I still notice the "donut war" templates on pages there from time to time, and I sigh a little... Uchiha KATON! 23:11, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Alexa
I have to admit I don't really understand Alexa so if I'm misreading it someone please point me in the right direction. But looking at stats for CP this morning it seems to have taken a nose dive and is in danger of dropping out the top 100,000 at which point (I think) Alexa stops bothering with them. Could someone more informed than me giove a better analysis? RedDog 07:01, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Just checked the actual ranking as of yesterday is 82,818 that's a fairly dramatic fall but it's only one day so I guess we'll have to see how it averages out. Strange it should dive so steeply unless the servers were down or something. Again the huge caveat with this is I don't really know what I'm talking about... RedDog 07:09, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Time for another boycott to push them below 100,000?


 * And just in case anyone's interested, as CP's been falling RW's been rising. It's like an inverse proportional ratio or something... 121.216.227.175 07:37, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Yeat at the moment CP seems kinda boring now Ken has (apparently) given up on his plans to take over the internet. I hope he does it again soon as that has been the funniest thing I've seen on CP in the short time I've been watching. I would certainly support a boycott if everyone's in. Would be good to nudge thenm back to the margins (not to mention the dark ages). RedDog 07:43, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * As I recall, the last boycott was unfortunately timed to coincide with one of their contests, and so the true effect of the boycott was lost entirely. And we missed out on some potential lulz. Coincidence or confluence? Bondurant 07:54, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Alexa's very revent stats are often wrong and often it looks like it's nosediving (or massively increasing), but it doesn't really do that. Check tomorrow, I'd bet it'll be about constant. Sterilesnore! 11:43, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Alexa monitors website traffic via spyware a toolbar that people visiting sites have installed. If you don't have it installed, you are not being counted. Thats part of the reason that slashdot ranks so low - people who have alexa installed (or even can install, they don't have a linux version) tend not to visit slashdot and those who do visit don't have it installed. --Shagie 12:16, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Maybe whoever set up the pageview-bot turned it off? --Gulik 15:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Unless the bot was doing something funky it won't tickle Alexa's traffic counter. Most bots are the form of  wget http://something.com/ > /dev/null  inside a while loop with a sleep to make sure you don't hit your own network/cpu too hard.  Alexa only works through its own toolbar.  Unless you install the toolbar on IE or Firefox and somehow make it constantly do a reload of a page Alexa won't even take notice. --Shagie 15:57, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Alexa "rankings" are really sensitive to miner changes in page views. The actual difference between a rank for 80,000 and 40,000 can be as small as 1,000 page views in a day. Alexa has also started using other forms of traffic monitoring other than their toolbar but as always it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

As far as RW/CP traffic relationships we are highly correlated, the more traffic they get the more we get. The reverse isn't necessarily true though, several times we have had massive spikes in visits for a few weeks due to something non-cp related but that doesn't lead to an increase at CP traffic. 16:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I beg to differ, Tmtoulouse and 121.216.227.175. I don't get any of that out of this.   17:36, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * What exactly are you disagreeing with? The sensitivity to change in the >10,000 page rank? The correlation between RW and CP in traffic? Or traffic spikes in RW not corresponding to spikes at cp? 75.161.33.251 17:38, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * What do you mean, the traffic spikes don't correspond? In terms of positive/negative trends, we match up quite well.  Yah, we won't perfectly align with them.  Mostly because we aren't Conservapedia, so of course our graphs won't be the same.  But we haven't broken the pattern yet.  Not until we can consistently follow different traffic trends.   17:48, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Reread my post carefully, I clearly said that we correlated very highly. But that there have been several traffic spikes at RW caused by non-cp related stuff (check out February) that did not lead to corresponding increases in traffic at CP. Basically new people at CP = new people at RW but new people at rw doesnt mean new people at cp. 17:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah, sorry. I was mainly going off on bunchofnumbers up there.  I don't see how s/he could've got "inverse proportion" out of our Alexa rankings.   17:56, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Ooh the Irony
Had to chuckle at the irony on CP claiming "Nobody's Safe in Cyber Space" directly above the mugshot plastered (probably without the mugee's permission) on the newspage. --PsygremlinWhut? 09:48, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I think mugshots are public domain. Although, I agree with your sentiment.  ħ uman  15:55, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No clue about the legal part, but I found it laughable because of CP's own history of stalking sysops. And even when you don't look at the CP/RW history, there are plenty examples where CP's "Use parts of your real name" rule combined with the "Your location and IP information are not private info and may be posted freely" habit for interesting results. --Sid 15:59, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

I find it ironic that this product of atheistic public schooling is from Arab, AL, (pronounced like Ahab). I'm from Alabama, and I doubt that there is a single atheist in Arab. Also, amusingly enough, there are no Arabs.--Greenmango 23:38, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Wanderer
...about to get teh hammah. Can someone burn a sock to invite him/her? PFoster 13:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No need to burn anything, unless he doesn't have mail enabled. But his struggles with Andy about Obama are a true classic (in a sad way). --Sid 13:54, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm somewhat of the view that I don't need to be invited here, seeing as....well, you know? Anyway, while I find this place pretty interesting, I'm still quite intrigued by Conservapedia, and I'd rather not "switch sides" and further contribute to the amusing but fruitless war of wikis. 67.170.155.176 14:42, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Well, it looks like Andy made that decision for you. And Fibbonaci, no less! --Kels 20:17, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * He got Godspeeded, too...  ħ uman  20:20, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Thank you for the link, I was looking for that. 67.170.155.176 20:26, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Five-Year Plans Blocks
Well, Andy did extend the block by seven minutes... ;)131.111.8.97 16:08, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

DeanS, the Obama "Punishment" image, and radical measures
From the Obama talk page: Note to editor's - if you remove the Image:Punishment.jpg from this article, you will be blocked for one day. --DeanSformerly Crocoite 15:29, 9 June 2008 (EDT) The result so far?

1) 2) 3)
 * 11:22, 9 June 2008 Thaen (Talk | contribs) (Removed Punishment image. Not neutral viewpoint, doesn't add anything to the verbiage on the page.)
 * 15:18, 9 June 2008 DeanS (Talk | contribs) blocked "Thaen (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (removed image from Obama article)
 * 15:35, 9 June 2008 Aaronp (Talk | contribs) (protest conservative bias)
 * 15:44, 9 June 2008 DeanS (Talk | contribs) blocked "Aaronp (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (removed image from Obama article)
 * 15:52, 9 June 2008 JamesM (Talk | contribs) (→Positions and Qualifications - Protesting the image and Dean's block threat regarding the removal of said image. The power to block those who disagree doesn't make your edits more encyclopedic.)
 * 16:14, 9 June 2008 DeanS (Talk | contribs) blocked "JamesM (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (removed image from Obama article - protest is noted)

And yes, the first guy got a 1-day block even though his edit (and the block) came before the announcement. DeanS does what he does best: Making up "rules" after the fact. --Sid 16:26, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * He's actually making up rule's after the fact, since editor's keep screwing up his article's. --Elkman 17:48, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Apostrophes should be eliminated from language. 17:52, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Filthy heretic! 17:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Account creation?
He's right Account creation's not there. 16:55, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * They do that from time to time - yesterday or the day before, some guy logged on and created dozens of accounts in a few minutes. Thry replied by putting the shields up.PFoster 17:01, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You can't create new socks? That's like admiting defeat isn't it? At the current rate of banning there'll be no-one left in a day or two... RedDog 17:24, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * They usually only raise the shields briefly. After all, the log shows that account creation had been open today, but it looks like quite a few accounts had been created in little time, so they raised the shields once again until the evil liberals get bored again. --Sid 17:42, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * See, the shields are down already. --Sid 18:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Killing Sprees
What is it about Andy (aside from a severe mental deficiancy) that he cant see that -

Japan - Strict gun control, few killing sprees USA - Loose gun laws, many killing sprees

Ace McWicked 17:29, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It's not the guns. This took me a long time to figure out, and I'm still sort of stabbing (sorry) at it, but: the USA needs guns and strong laws (laws that go against some of its founding principles of liberty) because, in the Christian fundy-verse, the country has strayed too far from the path of righteousness into wickedness. Japan, for example, might not be Christian, but they have a strong moral code grounded in traditional values - the USA has lost that, so that-and not the guns - is why the shooting sprees, etc....or something like that.PFoster 17:40, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Oh, I totally agree. Japan has an ingrained moral code based on tradition, respect etc etc. I guess what I mean to say is that this japan spree could have been 10 times worse if there were guns involved or, if guns were more available, there may be more sprees. using a gun gives you some mental distance from your actions where as knifes require a bit of wet-work. Ace McWicked 17:45, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * you have to remember that in Andy's world, anytime someone starts killing, every civilion is a trained sniper and the instant something bad happens, the gun symbol is flashed into the sky, Batman style, and the Armed populace of America comes to the aid of those in distress. Seriously though, he thinks just having guns lowers the crime rate, which I've heard from saner people.  The trouble is, the whole idea is stupid.  To reduce the argument to lowest terms, the best way to eliminate weapon violence is to give everyone a weapon... Amazing SirChuckB  20:02, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Yeah, but...wouldn't it be great if it worked? --Kels 20:13, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * And once again, not a word of sympathy for the victims, just more chance to gloat about how people need moar guns. I almost get the impression they ghoulishly wait with baited breath for the next mass-murder. They really make me ill sometimes. --PsygremlinWhut? 10:26, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Conservapedia insights confirmed
As a YEC site it is no surprise that there processes are much like YEC studies.


 * Heres the Genesis account, now lets find pyhsical evidence that supports it!


 * Obama is anti-solider, now lets find cites that support that.

Idiots. Ace McWicked 19:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

TerryH
Is an idiot. 19:58, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Really? You just noticed that... slow on the uptake aren't we? SirChuckB  20:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Not at all, Mr B. You must have noticed he is being especially moronic recently. Music has consequences, and you'd have to ignore logic to disagree. 20:08, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

teh Asshat is the biggest he is going on about how someone who isnt a professor putting professor on their CV would be met with scorn and refusal to hire. Hmmmmmm never happened to Dawkins, which proves using Andys logic that Dawkins is a professor. Damn I wish I had a sock to point that out! Ace McWicked 203.96.84.33 20:30, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * I dunno, I'm personally fond of his saying the office didn't say that "Senior Lecturer" and "Professor" were equivalent, when they actually say "Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors...". Seriously, the man cannot read. --Kels 20:38, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I was just actually reading the Obama article, and had an urge to reach my hand into the computer and wring the Administrations's collective neck. The thing is even more "criminal" than Homosexuality. Lyra Silvertongue 20:40, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Hehehe, I get that urge every 3rd or 4th WIGO I follow...  ħ uman  20:47, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Visions of throttling Andy aside, I am amazed at the forbearance of people who try to deal rationally with him and the others, even though the effort is futile. Some days, the only reasonable response to things like this or this is a period of blank incomprehension, followed by "What the fuck is wrong with you?" --Kels 20:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Liberal denial No 4 -- Denying that Andy/Ken/Terry/Ed can decide what's true for themselves. 20:59, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The proposition that Obama is anti-soldier just boggles my mind. Lyra Silvertongue 21:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The inside of Andy's head is a frightening, bizarre place. --Kels 21:23, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This campaign is going to bring out the worst of the worst in Andy. You ain't seen nothin' yet. Wait'll Barack starts tearin' it up against the old man. Of course, Andy is wetting his pants at the prospect of an Obama victory. Four years of a target-rich environment.PFoster 21:25, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Undoubtedly -- the whole election is going to be one massive, shameless smear on Obama over at CP. Not that they'll really have any influence on the outcome... 21:30, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Wasn't it brought up before that Andy might be a little jealous of Obama? They did both go to Harvard, etc. but they certainly do have different life-trajectories, huh?  --Arcan   ¡ollǝɥ  21:31, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Andy is jealous of all attractive liberals. Damn their insolence. 21:34, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, a few dozen times now - the Obama candidacy is certainly a perfect storm of Andy-gravation.  ħ uman  21:36, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

(unindent)I mentioned this before - google "Obama + Schlafly" and you'll find him commenting to a follower of Illinois politics that Obama is nothing like he is portrayed by other peers at Harvard, and will likely flame out of the public consciousness..." this was a year or more ago. Az 19:31, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I tried, I couldn't find of which you speak. Can you help me find it?  Thanks...  ħ uman  20:06, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Did you mean this http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/obamawatch/page/4/ ?  ħ uman  20:17, 10 June 2008 (EDT)


 * That's the one indeed. Every other person asked says that Obama was a gregarious consensus-builder at Harvard; their knock, if they have one, is that he made friends at the expense of ideology. But no, Andy clears it up - Obama was an uncharismatic loner. Az 11:40, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Apparently, he was an "appeaser", too. Andy sure got out ahead of the echo chamber on that one!  ħ uman  14:18, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Place Your Bets
Lets start a pool. How long, within 2 hours, until they lock the Barack Obama page?
 * Noon (EDT)June 11, 2008.PFoster 21:48, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * 10:00 (EDT) June 9, 2008. Lyra Silvertongue 23:35, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, this depends on the level of vandalism and edit warring. SHahB 21:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * I dunno, when does Andy go to bed? --Kels 21:52, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd say they won't - instead of locking it, they have firmly seeded the ability to block anyone who edits it wrongly instead. Petty little assholes who'd rather bait and seed vandals so they can bully them.  Norseman <font color = "0000EE">Wassail!   01:21, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

"No one is criticizing Obama based on his race. But he's not immune from criticism based on his race either. Surely you agree with that.--Aschlafly is an idiot 21:42, 9 June 2008 (EDT)"
 * which of you is this?

Section Content moved to Debate:Is Andy Schlafly Racist? Please add comment there.

The deed WAS done
For a few seconds Danny did it. I win, methinks. Lyra Silvertongue 14:09, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Uh What?
Despite all appearances,Conservapedia has no conservative bias

Ace McWicked 22:23, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * MOUNTAINS HAVE JUST FLOWN INTO SPACE. THE EARTH HAS STOPPED TURNING. Lyra Silvertongue 23:26, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * "Mountains have just flown into space"? That's an excellent idea/image/hallucination! 23:28, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * What, never seen Superman?
 * This is RIDICULOUS. [[Image:Wtf.gif]] CONSERVApedia has no conservative bias. [[Image:Wtf.gif]] [[Image:Wtf.gif]] Lyra Silvertongue 23:31, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Stand back! I know how his "mind" works! -- it's a "viewpoint", not a bias. Liberal reality has to be reinterpreted to make it fit their expectations, after all. 23:35, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So now he's stopped using the "we're only neutral to the facts lolol" excuse? NightFlareStill doesn't have a RWW article. 23:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Here's an odd, odd comment. It's as if Andy were admitting Bush's press secretary lied about something. --Gulik 21:53, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * He's simply accusing his opponent of being an hypocrite in a massive act of projection. Nothing unusual. NightFlareStill doesn't have a RWW article. 23:21, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Punishment
http://www.southernappeal.org/index.php/archives/category/barack-obama <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  00:06, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Seriously...
using a parodist edit, (and a really lame one too) for a WIGO is kinda pointless. It really doesn't reflect on what is going on, and it really isn't funny. --CPAdmin1 02:26, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That's what the thumbs down is for. 02:38, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If it reaches a certain negative number does it get deleted? --CPAdmin1 02:46, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Nope, but it prevents it from being upgraded to best of cp, and it will disappear into archive oblivion soon enough. 02:51, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * OK, fair enough. --CPAdmin1 02:54, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Hey CP! I may be a bit slow but I didn't realise you posted here. It's really good to see people who are willing to step over the divide. Dialogue can only be a good thing. I actually thought the post about Obamma was quite funny although I agree it was a bit of a cheap shot as I think Andy's intended meaning was faily clear (have I got the right WIGO?). I guess some people would call it a Freudian slip as taken at face value the meaning is very different. RedDog 04:55, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Unless I'm missing something, the edit referred to in that WIGO was Andy's. Does this mean you're calling Andy a parodist? Zmidponk 08:59, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ultimately, aren't all edits to CP - "parodist edits"? 09:10, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

CPadmin and LT
This is an interesting exchange, partly because it shows just how out of the loop Tim/CPadmin1 is, but also a fairly obvious example of "Assume Bad Faith" by LT, as he lets slip the general CP assumption that any questioning of a sysop is assumed to be malicious. Plus, of course, following TK's "behind closed doors" policy. --Kels 06:43, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * How long until CPAdmin1 gets axed? Seriously, the guy is WAY too sane, and he says what he thinks. Without actually looking at his name, you'd assume that he's just another regular editor (you know, of the kind that gets perma-banned for the usual "I don't like him!" excuses like "not supporting the project" or "talk, talk, talk" or "whining"). Even fricken Learn Together now shoves him around! It's a tragedy, really. :( --Sid 07:30, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Except he's a siteadmin. Surely that must count for something over there?   08:30, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Eagle Forum
I didn't look too hard, but it doesn't seem like CP is listed anywhere on mommy schlafly's website. That's sad. Jr ss  r5  10:01, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Click on "EF University": http://www.eagleforumu.org/eagleforumu/ It's been updated last year, too! <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:26, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

69 million views
So who thinks they'll strategically avoid updating this?Shangrala 10:37, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

"All Hail New Sysop!"
Is it Helpjazz? No? Iduan? No? Goddammit CP, you have no sense of loyalty. We can only hope that Bugler goes all Mexmax/Samwell on them.PFoster 11:41, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Heh. He's not quite a "sysop", though - just "Block, edit, Upload", two of which are normal rights on any sane wiki, and "block" just let's him fight teh librul wandals.  Or, of course, go Samwell ;).  I presume that without "sysop" he won't have "rollback" or "checkuser".  Can't think of anything else though. He also made DeanS a "Siteadmin" a few days ago... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  12:36, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm surprised that Andy gave Bugler blocking rights. That guy triggered every "parodist" alarm I got. Oh well, not my problem. :D
 * As a technical note: Checkuser access requires the user right of the same name (not every sysop has access to it), and sysops have one power that (on CP) is apparently harder to get than blocking rights: Page move rights - something every user on Wikipedia has right from the start (unless I missed a memo). --Sid 12:59, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah yes, you are correct re: checkuser. And I just checked WP, yes, I have a tab that says "move" and I'm "just an ordinary editor" there. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:28, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually only autoconfirmed users on WP can move pages. So you need an account that is at least four days old and with at least ten edits. There's a debate going on right now if they should extend it somehow.Shangrala 13:43, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yea that is what we have here, we used to allow anyone but anonymous IPs to move pages but it is a nasty type of vandalism to clean up so implemented the autoconfirm as well. Only thing that really makes sense. 13:47, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Being the authoritarian blog that it is, I can see why sysopships at CP are hard to come by. I say we make CPAdmin1 a sysop here just to show how little a deal it really is. 13:51, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No thanks. I would much rather not be a sysop here.  --CPAdmin1 13:52, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You know that means that we have to make you one. 13:53, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually it doesn't. If I am made a sysop here, I would be less likely to continue here. --CPAdmin1 13:56, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You know what I hate? Money.Shangrala 14:00, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Hehe @ Shangrala. As far as CPA1, I see his point.  Making him (?) a sysop is more a mockery of him than a "sharing" of any kind.  I believe his desire not to be one has genuine reasonability, as opposed to, say, some "regular" RWian who doesn't want to do "the work" (since there is no requirement to use teh powerz, it's no big deal). <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  14:08, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Hitler = Christian?
Section moved to Debate:Was Hitler a Christian?

Off Topic - Roy Zimmerman
Someone delete this if posting this here makes me the spawn of Andy but if you haven't seen it before I thought some of you might like this guy. I really like Creation Sience 101, Jerry Falwell's God and America. I bought a couple of his CD - he's really good. Of course it helps if you share his ideology. RedDog 15:32, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I just listened to "Thanks for the Support." I thought it was quite good.  I really liked the guitar work.  The singing was a bit dodgy in a few rare instances, but I'd say that's because it's a live recording.  Of course, I did like the sentiment, so that may bias me a bit.  --<font color="#99CCFF">Arcan   ¡ollǝɥ  15:43, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah the singing is ropey - even on his studio stuff his voice isn't great. Like you I really like his guitar style and I think the lyrics are superb. Very much in the amateur thing at the moment though. I guess if he keeps performing. It's just good to hear someone singing something they really believe so passionately though. RedDog 15:48, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Immoral music?
Onward Christian Soldiers! The talk page is fnu too. CЯacke ® 18:59, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

oh Andy
Of course, if it proves evolution the "scientist" must be lying 203.96.84.33 23:24, 10 June 2008 (EDT) Ace Mcwicked
 * Is he referring to Archaeopteryx? The fossilized bird that even AIG said is valid, but he instead says "well I've seen Fred Hoyle's research, and it's good enough for me" and makes idealogical edits to articles. <font face="Comic Sans MS"> Norseman <font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color = "0000EE">Wassail!   01:05, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * To quote that medical show I laugh with: "Wrong, wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong!!! <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  01:19, 11 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Good heavens, he's bringing up the fossil-bird thing? That got explained to him back in the old talk.origins days, where it had to be explained to him it was an occlusion that was mistaken, but figured out in short order.  Not a hoax in the first place.  That's our Andy, won't let truth stand in the way of good propaganda. --Kels 06:36, 11 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Is it just me or is Roger Schlafly arguing in favour of evolution on the Google Groups? Maybe there are 2 black sheep in the family... RyanC 08:15, 11 June 2008 (EDT)


 * My God, that link to the t.o. discussion is absolutely extraordinary. I had no idea. Ajkgordon 08:30, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Someday someone should assemble all of the "Tweedle Twins" um, "contributions" to T.O. in one place... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  14:23, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Was the dinobird "hoax" in SciAm and NatGeo, or is Our Andy just confused again? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  14:25, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * To answer myself, it was only in NatGeo. Andy simply doesn't remember it clearly, even though it was he who brought it up. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  22:22, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Thanks, PJR. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:42, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I really am astonished. This was eight years ago. He seems to have claimed then that in ten years' time (i.e. in 2010) the Internet would kill off evolution. Has he not also claimed that he "converted" to YEC-ism recently? He seemed pretty convinced by it eight years ago. And his debate tactics are exactly the same. No evolution there, that's for sure! Ajkgordon 14:46, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Where are the TO links you golks are referring to? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  14:59, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * First WIGO item: "...that was explained to you eight years ago?" Ajkgordon 15:03, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah, thanks, I often have trouble correlating talk here with a link at the WIGO page. Too much mercury in my mars bars, methinks. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  15:59, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Apparently Roger and Andy were collectively known as "Rogandy" in those days, as they tended to back up each others' "arguments", with Roger generally lying through his teeth and Andy just being insane and transparently idiotic. Neither were interested in learning a thing, and I'm not sure about Roger, but Andy actually seemed to believe that whatever factoid was festering inside his skull at any given time was the last thing that would bring the Godless Evilutionists to their knees. Amazingly like Ken in a lot of respects, actually, which is something that really amazed me. You could switch Andy for Ken in a lot of those discussions and not really see a difference. --Kels 18:12, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Good heavens, I just went back to the discussion that started this section off, and Andy's bizarre comment, "By the way, Lenski's extremely pro-evolution point of view should have been disclosed in the New Scientist article to alert the readers." Andy, the article called him an "evolutionary biologist" the very first time it mentions his name, under a headline that mentions evolution. You think that might tip the more astute readers off? --Kels 20:23, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I just went back and read the entire "Mungo Man" thread teh assfly started at TO. Ah, I loves me reading those things every few months, once in a while reminding myself that this clueless trolling team includes "Our Andy", who thinks he somehow has a clue as to how to build an encyclopedia.  That thread goes on for just over 400 comments, but the tweedle twins take it off the rails on the first page of 25, never again to veer near reality or logic.  It's also nice to see multiple people justifiably calling them "liars" eight years ago. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  22:18, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Chase it out to his profile, then look at what groups he has posted in... and then you can go on to finding his denials of general relativity (sci.astro & sci.physics & sci.physics.relativity), vaccination (misc.kids.health), napster and copying music for free is good (misc.legal) sidenote, Andy is a Prince fan. A bunch about censorship (news.groups - claiming that the automod that cancels cross posting from talk.origins is censorship). One third of his posts were to talk.origins. --Shagie 15:38, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Out of curiosity, how far back do his talk.origins posts actually go? I know he's claimed a relatively recent date for his so-called conversion to Creationism, but it looks like as far as 8 years ago (the Mungo Man discussion) he was already well versed in anti-evo rhetoric and overall denial of reality, trolling, and Lyin' For Jesus.  --Kels 19:55, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * His andysch profile goes back to May 1999. First post to talk.origins, Sept. 99. --Robledo 20:10, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * His posts in sci.astro on Galileo show him trying to whitewash the RC church on its treatment of science. Might that be the conversion - RC to born again? The talk.origins posts... 8 posts in September '99 to 14 posts in February 2001 with the bulk of them between September 2000 and January 2001. Those first bits are just blips though. He started posting on usenet in May of '99 using that account to August of 2001.  I can find posts of mine from back in '93 - just a matter of knowing who/what to look for (hmm... I wonder if I can get xtank running under OSX). I think its fair to say, that was his entire time there.  For comparison, Roger posted once in June of 1998 and was September '99 through Feb 2001 also. --Shagie 20:12, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Those brothers use multiple accounts... --Shagie 20:18, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Andy
 * 
 * I know there's at least another one...
 * Roger
 * 
 * 
 * More?

What was it?
What link was it that caused the burning of CP's Main page? <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  20:10, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No clue, but it must've been truly evil to warrant erasing months of edit history... --Sid 20:13, 11 June 2008 (EDT)


 * To judge by the edit summary, probably a goatse link or something similar. --Kels 20:26, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Someone posted a link to hardcore porn website. Ace McWicked. 203.96.84.33 20:32, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Was it Main or Mainpageright? If the latter, there go several hundreds of carefully documented WIGO links... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  22:20, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It was the talk page. Maybe its time we start using this?NightFlareStill doesn't have a RWW article. 22:22, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That looks interesting, but a lot of work? There's always the wayback machine if we want to re-find something important (as if anyone will ever care).  Does TWM work on old wiki pages?  I guess it should... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  22:42, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * What's the wayback machine? 22:46, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This is. WP has some info on it.  --<font color="#99CCFF">Arcan   ¡ollǝɥ  23:01, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sorry about that, it was crappy of me not to provide a link. I always whine when others don't, so I should be less of a schlemieileielalell, eh? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  00:44, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Andy's warm-up before rewriting the Bible
Since there's going to be a conservative-oriented American History class offered to the homeschoolers in the fall, it's time to create a properly censored conservative version of American History. This should be fun to watch. - SpinyNorman 22:22, 11 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Omigod, someone please sacrifice a sock and add "A People's History of the US" - Zinn to the list!!! (and make sure the title is correct, I may have garbled it). Description: "A bit wordy in places, but properly places the driving energies behind the success of the Republic squarely on Devout Christian Shoulders where they belong.  Thoroughly debunks liberals, socialism, and fraudulent "science" like Evolution." <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  22:48, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Lenski's Data
Give the man some points for stick-to-itiveness (if not actual intelligence):

Andy: Lenski should make his data available. AdenJ: What makes you think he hasn't? Andy:  Lenski should make his data available. AdenJ: I'm certain he must have done so. Andy: Lenski should make his data available. Able806: Here's the data, and the peer-reviewed paper. Andy: Lenski should make all of his data available. Able806: He's always made all of his data available. Leda: Here's a link to all the data. Andy: I don't see the data. You haven't seen the data. Nobody's seen the data! Leda: Maybe you're just too stupid to understand the data. Andy: I'm certain the data will never be posted. Able806: A link to the data has already been posted. Andy: I don't see the data. You haven't seen the data. Nobody's seen the data! Able806: Here's the link to the data. Andy: Lenski should make his data available. --WJThomas 11:46, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * In the world of Godspeed what Lenski is claiming cannot have happened so Lenski must be somehow fraudulent. Note, for example, the Piltdown man reference. Andy's world view refuses to accept the facts and his only option is constant and repeated denial. Silver Sloth 11:54, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Cognitive dissonance at its finest.... Sterilesnore! 12:23, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * His talk makes me think it would be great to see a thread of someone arguing with him the same way he argues with others. Sort of like a room full of clones of Andy. - Lardashe
 * Indeed, but that would require Andy and his droogs being deprived of their banhammers. Otherwise, if anyone tried to do out-Andy Andy, last wordism would be invoked and a block would swiftly follow. Bondurant 13:05, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That was a very good distillation of that conversation, WJT. I remember feeling almost shock when Andy continued after the link Leda posted, which was a giant text file full of.... data.  Raw data.  My head exploded when I read this: "do you seriously think the data cannot be presented in a clear manner??? Rest assured that, in fact, it can."  Make up your mind, Andy, do you want the data or the written language version? Oh, wait, nevermind... <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:06, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * @Bondurant, that's why the TO archives are so much fun. Not only do the tweedle twins lack their banhammers, they eventually (always!) get called "liar" to their face and can't "undo" it. No wonder Andy invented the "90/10" rule. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:07, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I shall have to check them out. Is there an easy linky to get us started? Bondurant 13:11, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, from the WIGO, http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_thread/thread/5f2a7f9dea2ef42b/eb93d794266d2bea?q=andysch+dinosaur-bird&lnk=nl& I think this starts a coupel of pages into the thread, but I'm not sure. For "more", drop the dinosaur-bird part and just search the archives for "andysch".  "Roger" is probably a good search term, too. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:44, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

The really sad thing is, that mostly Lenski's data just "is." It's just data. It's Andy who's repelled by his implicit interpretation of it. Sad, really. Sterilesnore! 13:47, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You're right, human, there is some quality ownage in that TO thread, and I'm not even half way through yet. Thanks for the link Bondurant 17:29, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Really, this is ironically funny, since right now I'm reading the thread where he's asking why there aren't human skeletons from more than 75 kya, and then claiming that what he wants are skeletons, not fossils. The guy's a piece of work. --Kels 20:47, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Yes, I loved your paraphrasing of the conversation WJT, nice work. But the whole scenario just got dialed up by ten million percent, as Andy's gone and fucking written to Lenski demanding that he "publish his data". Check WIGO. BWAHAHA! <font color="#00F0A20">DogP  13:14, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Speaking of the Banhammer Defense...
...WTF is wrong with Learn Together? If you missed the WIGO item, check the article starting with this edit, the talk page and the block logs for the non-sysop participants.

It's a hilarious clusterfuck of LT trying to rewrite history (Didn't he do something similar with the Crusades? I vaguely remember him debating TomMoore there...). This time, he sorta fights an uphill battle, though, since his little crusade started out with replacing data with his wishy-washy opinion. It's really hard to believe that that's the same guy who started out as moderately acceptable (from what I remember). --Sid 13:28, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Wow, that Image:Arab demographics.jpg has to be one of the worst I have ever seen. Perhaps some WIGO-watcher can redo the screen cap and make a png instead? Or copy the graphs and use normal text? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:48, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah, let's leave it like that. It's the online equivalent of a skunk stripe: A "STAY AWAY IF YOU VALUE YOUR (MENTAL) HEALTH" sign :D --Sid 13:51, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Broke my irony meter again!
Time to recalibrate, I guess:

"Folks, I know how liberals love last wordism, and love the attention of continuing to fuss and insist on absurdities. A "Senior Lecturer" is not a "Professor". Accounts will be blocked if they insist on claiming it is. Finally got it?--Aschlafly 13:00, 12 June 2008 (EDT)" (wikilinks stripped)

Paraphrased: Folks, you know how I love getting the last word, and love to insist on absurdities. Anyone who disagrees with me will be blocked. Finally got it? <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  13:57, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * From the archives of sci.physics.relativity this gem of a quote, mind?
 * "I don't take any enjoyment in the lack of vocal dissent from G[eneral]R[elativity]. I wish you could demonstrate that vocal dissent exists, because real progress depends on vocal dissent. Andy "
 * CЯacke ® 16:02, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * After finding that thread -http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astro/browse_thread/thread/659f685d046a1b44/545ba93d803a4a58?lnk=st&q=#545ba93d803a4a58

I am reminded of a guy I knew as a junior in high school. He was a senior, but he acted like a freshman. He was in the habit of getting into classrooms early, scribbling equations on the board, and claiming it was "his theory." - Lardashe
 * Any examples you wish to share/can recall at this time? --<font color="#00FFFF">λινυσ (☮) 16:40, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Not exactly, it was entirely nonsense. He'd scribble bits of formulas and draw lines.... I actually have pictures of some of them.  There was definitely no meaning at all, I think he was doing it for attention. - Lardashe

Teeshirts packed with WIGO lulz
I haz opened CLUELESS VALUES, a stupid store, where you may obtain teeshirts, underwear, baby bibs, coasters, mousepads and the like emblazoned with the wit and wisdom of Andy for all your lulzification needs. Rest assured (some of the) money raised will go towards Pi Pledges (the rest will go to beer the enormous legal team I will need to defend myself from a certain lawyer). <font color="#00F0A20">DogP  13:59, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The thong would be slightly disturbing to get to that point and see that staring at me. Not quite as bad as 403 error panties, but still. --Shagie 14:23, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I know a guy with a pair of the 403 panties. Barikada 15:22, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Though, the thought of disturbing undergarments... at least you don't have Andy or Phyllis pictures on them. Though, thats a good way to go for abstinence education... Pictorial chastity belt. --Shagie 14:24, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Epic fail for your lack of "mostly defensive weapon of gun" boxer shorts. Correct this error immediately.


 * Done.  Other orders please?   <font color="#00F0A20">DogP  18:06, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * "People are free to drinks as much Kool-Aid as they like, but many end up wanting something better. Welcome to Conservapedia." Totally real. The best Andy quotes are at User:Kels/Schlaflyisms. Go digging. 18:18, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * It would have to be "largely defensive" :P 15:59, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Yes, I epic fail at remembering lolschalaflys.
 * There's some funny stuff there. Nice work. RedDog 16:33, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

The most disturbing thing you saw at DogP's store...

 * The bib, definitely. It's just wrong to have "Professor values" on a bib, man.   14:30, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I liked the "You're clueless" bib though. Seems perfect.  We should buy one and send it to Andy. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  14:35, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * For a pictorial chastity belt, I'd recommend Smeg Ed's largely offensive teeth of green. PsygremlinWhut? 14:37, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * What about a lenticular image of Andy's regular face and his creeper face? Barikada 15:22, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Beautiful. --Gulik 15:25, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Andy's story
A conservative parable or just another bat-Shit insane thing Andy does in his spare time? Ace McWicked 18:27, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * OH MY HIS GOD! That's just horrible!  It's like a bad e-mail forward.  Strike that, it's not even that good.  Ugh.  --<font color="#99CCFF">Arcan   ¡ollǝɥ  18:36, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * P.S. - On the plus side, with the addition of the first-person POV, at least he's dropped any pretense of the parables being anything other than crazy ass-stories supposedly from his own life.
 * I don't know what it is about this one (probably there being a kid in it), but this has really gotten to me. I've got to step away from this for a few hours.  ASchlafly is a bastard who should be kept 30 yards away from all children.  --<font color="#99CCFF">Arcan   ¡ollǝɥ  18:43, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That can't be the real Andy, surely? Has someone gotten into his account?? Is that our old friend Kandlewick? Tell me it isn't true! 18:45, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

I wanna know 3 things, Ace McWicked 18:47, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Does Andy actually have liberal friends? How can they stand him let alone let their daughter near him?
 * Why was the little girl not afraid of Andy and his scary voice?
 * Why does Andy have so much dogshit on his lawn?
 * I want to know why Andy writes "$5 dollars". Do you say that as "five dollars dollars"? Are you nine years old Andy? Are you?? 18:50, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

New warning to kids: stay AWAY from people who offer you candy or "$5 dollars" to pick up dog poop; RUN away from them if they want to photograph you picking up the dog poop. CЯacke ® 18:56, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Dammit, people, it's got a punchline - of course Andy didn't write it. Google your sentence fragment of choice. --Robledo 19:14, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * *Ahem* It's not his story.  I don't think he was pretending it was.  Rather, he copy-pasted an already well-circulated "conservative parable".   19:30, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh, right. That explains it. 19:39, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Either way, it looks completely fucking stupid. 203.96.84.33 19:51, 12 June 2008 (EDT) Ace McWicked

Wow ... that's just the Worst Parable Ever. I'm amazed. 83.254.68.240 19:56, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Andy actually speaking to a child is an eerie image, knowing what he would say just makes it worse. Etc 19:58, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You know, even better than the grammar errors, the creepiness and the fact that it's an joke that's been around for years (I had a teacher tell that one in middle school) The best part of the whole thing is that Andy misses a deeper point of the joke. One part of the joke is that the little girl is suddenly a Conservative not because she thinks people should help themselves, but by making the poor do it themselves, she doens't actually have to do any work... It's classic Andy, can't see the forest for the trees. <font color="#000066" >SirChuckB  20:28, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Hold on now, does this all mean that atheists are better Conservatives than theists? --Kels 21:12, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The "parable" is ignorant phail. And, as pointed out, is actually mockery of Republicans.  Clean up my dogshit, and get $5, to buy a house?  It takes more than itinerant dogshit cleaning to enable someone to obtain housing.  As I recall, someone much smerter than me once said "how can you ask a man with no boots to pull himself up by his bootstraps?" Andy is a fascist tool, but he loves the power of never having to argue long with people who disagree with him. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  23:14, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Tangent
On NOW on PBS there was a program about giving homeless people homes and the cost on society. The essence of it was that it is cheaper to give the homeless (even the drunk and drug addicts) a house first and then deal with the problems of alcoholism and drugs. Having a place that you can sleep in and not worry about getting mugged goes a long way to mental stability and reducing emergency calls to the hospital. In this story, homeless people were racking up $100,000 average in 18 months costs in emergency room to the hospitals. Once he was given a place (lets pretend $1000/month rent) this went to near $0. Right there, savings to the tax payers of $4k/month. To say nothing of his improved quality of life. --Shagie 20:45, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * You are forgetting that mister logic and open-minded himself advocates the usual extremely narrow view that all homeless people need to do is work and all there problems go away. If you are going to go around thinking and learning about the problems like you have you want be able to come up with quick fix solutions which absolve you of all responsibility as a non-homeless person. 3.14159 22:17, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I fixed your other typo. Having immersed myself for a few days in Andy ca. 2000 at Talk Origins, calling him "Mr. Logic" is very apropos.  Raised by a right wing maniac, he is a "true believer" in (many) certain propositions.  He views them as unimpeachable, logically profound truths.  Just as he jerked himself off at TO and on usenet in general back in the day, he "thinks" that the "ideas" in his "brain" are self-evident (get the strict constructionist joke?).  He has a basic mantra of perhaps 8 or 10 or so "political talking points" and builds everything he says around them.  He has not learned anything in 25-30 odd years of "adulthood".  His mother was a force, a monster, but a force, in politics.  He is a chump, with his childish alternative to wikipedia.  Read his rants about "freedom of speech" on usenet (especially, re: TO and moderation) and then compare it to how he runs "his own show" - his webshite - where people are banned for expressing ideas that disagree with him, where comments are deleted for "talk pollution", and you see what a small, sad man this is that we are wasting our time observing. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  23:08, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Back on topic to the tangent, I recall seeing something about a similar (same?) program. Some of the "programees" had troubles adjusting, but part of the deal was social workers dropping by to help them learn how to throw out their trash, etc.  Overall, as I recall, the story was the same - it doesn't always work, but when it does, it saves huge amounts of money. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  23:11, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * One of the difficulties with "all you need to do is work" theory for having the homeless help themselves is that most places of employment require a permeant residence and "under the overpass at 4th and main" doesn't cut it. Additionally, the hygiene requirements for many jobs where you come in contact with others are difficult to meet without a bathroom that is yours (with a shower), a change of clothes and the ability to do laundry.  It is difficult to get go to any job when all your worldly belongings are in a grocery cart and you have to worry about them being stolen while away at work.  It really boils down to housing is the first and most essential part of helping the homeless.  It is a chicken and egg problem (can't get a job until have a home, can't have a home until get a job) until you give the homeless person a home.  Once you've got these things down then you can worry about the rest. --Shagie 00:36, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I agree, absolutely, and as pointed out, program experimenting with this socialist solution are working amazingly well - as in, saving public expenditures by orders of magnitude. <font color="#DD00DD" face="comic sans ms"> ħ uman  00:50, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

An actual funny
This won't last long, I suspect.
 * That was actually an amusing simpified caricature of both political ends... I lol'd. Uchiha KATON! 00:39, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Realistic Ending
So, I was talking to this little girl Catherine, the daughter of some friends, and she said she wanted to be President some day.

''Both of her parents, liberal Democrats, were standing there with us - and I asked Catherine - "If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?" ''

''Catherine replied - "I would give houses to all the homeless people." ''

''"Wow - what a worthy goal you have there, Catherine." I told her, "You don't have to wait until you're President to do that, you can come over to my house and clean up all the dog poop in my back yard and I will pay you $5. Then we can go over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $5 to use for a new house."'' ''Catherine thought that over for a second, while her mom looked at me seething, and Catherine replied, "why doesn't the homeless guy come over and clean up the dog poop and you can just pay him the $5?" ''

And I said, "Because I would never let a dirty, drunken hobo into my hard-earned private property. Not until he decides to get a job and stops being a burden on the taxpayers!"

Uchiha KATON! 00:39, 13 June 2008 (EDT)


 * My alternate, as far as Andy's purposes... Catherine thought that over for a second, while her mom looked at me seething, and Catherine replied, "how can he buy a house for $5, mister creepy? (Mommy, he's looking at me funny, I don't like it)"