RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive247

(Not a) programme for revolutionary change
Moved to Forum:Mod election 2015 Bicycle  wheel  17:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Uh... Hello?
This is my very first post made in RationalWiki. As you know, I'm originally an incredulous Christian. Specifically a Catholic. Before I've change my religion to an even more cringing one -- fundamentalism. At a school with the A.C.E. curriculum. I've been told that the Bible (often called "God's Word") is inerrant, that the young-earth creationism was true and that evolution was just religion.

That is until I've read internet articles about the evidence of evolution.

I suddenly have a feeling that I've been... deceived. By those pesky liars, by that curriculum. And then came RationalWiki. It saved me from this insanity.

Today, I'm not convinced of being a Christian anymore and I'm now an atheist. And I love to see AronRa's great videos often.

I'm born in the Philippines, but can't natively speak Filipino because my old brother taught me English first.

... Okay, is this a proper talk page to introduce myself? I'm new here.

And I have some Filipino fundamentalist propaganda mill found on Facebook about that Daniel Veridiano vs. Eliseo Soriano case. But is this topic interesting?
 * Welcome to RationalWiki! A couple things.  You can sign your posts with the four tildes at the end.  If you would like to know what others think of a topic, you can suggest it in our To Do list (read how to edit it properly), though fundamentalist propaganda mills are usually middle to high priority for us.  As for the Daniel v Eliseo case, no, I haven't heard of it.  What's it about? CorruptUser (talk) 22:16, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well... So do I. I have no idea about that case. But that propaganda mill also talks about the separation of church and state law in the Philippines. But I found it (the website not law) to be cringing. Here's that website: http://www.controversyextraordinary.com/2015/08/iglesia-ni-cristo-de-lima.html What do you think? Eruhbuus (talk) 22:38, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In fact, the whole website, "Controversy eXtraordinary" is mostly anti-Catholicism and gross ignorance... That would be very interesting. http://www.controversyextraordinary.com/ Eruhbuus (talk) 23:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (EC) Greetings! Welcome to RationalWiki! Yes, that sounds like potentially interesting and missional information. Also, congratulations on rejecting fundamentalism! While rejecting religious dogma doesn't necessitate atheism, it's certainly one of the saner options out there. Again, welcome! 142.124.55.236 (talk) 22:20, 2 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Welcome!--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 22:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Uh... Lol, how do I even reply comments? Eruhbuus (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The common convention is to add an extra indentation (: at the start of a post) compared to the post you're replying to. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 22:31, 2 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Oh? Eruhbuus (talk) 22:38, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep, so according to this convention you should've started your post with one more :. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 22:40, 2 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Oh? Adding more of colon cancers... Eruhbuus (talk) 22:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

This guy treats colon cancer. CorruptUser (talk) 22:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What's that line undent thing? Eruhbuus (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A very warm welcome to you, Eruhbuus! Don't be afraid to ask us any questions, and don't forget to read the RationalWiki guide for the newly de-converted! :) Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "undent" with double curly brackets. CorruptUser (talk) 22:55, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, welcome to RW, Eruhbuus]. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 02:11, 3 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Indeed, welcome Eruhbuus. If you are in the mood, Philippines might benefit from your input.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 02:33, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Wait wait wait
Rationalwiki actually helped someone who wasn't already in the tank with our general positions? That's pretty momentous, to be honest. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 13:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * An outbreak of helpful niceness. Whatever next, eh? --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 16:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Next, a radical Republican will see the light of day. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * I was a right-leaning cafeteria Christian when I found this site. It's pretty hard to be more opposite than where I ended up. ArcticVixen (talk) 02:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I think RationalWiki did everything. I think just somehow disprove Alex Jones at his own game with moar ridiculous conspiracies like "the steel beams melted b/c the chemtrails tanks in the airliners would have been too hot. But, woah, dude, glad you saw the light of day. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 10:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * I came here for information back when I deconverted, specifically for some of the civil rights articles on homosexuality and gender identity. I was a moderate Catholic with some homophobic views, and going to college and actually interacting with the LGBT community made me rethink those views.  Which, in addition to some of the other less then stellar things the CC has done *cough sex abuse cough*, it kinda just made me look at the man behind the curtain. So yeah, keep up the good work guys.  ANON-Lurker 74.140.196.211 (talk) 14:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Recent events in Hungary
If the media you consume cover Europe, you most likely have heard of the recent events in Hungary. Orban who already is a rather unpleasant ruler to the right of even most European conservatives and some GOP politicians in the US has built a fence between Hungary and Serbia and continues to play political games with people who fled war violence and insanity in places like Afghanistan or Syria. Maybe we should in some way cover the current (and please imagine more just two scare-quotes) ""refugee crisis""? After all, it has all the racism, crankery, manufectroversy and stuff to it we usually cover. People are fleeing death and violence and countries that could easily support a million of them and more complain about the "incredible strain" of giving water, food and shelter to those human beings. Of course the US could also do more to help refugees, just like our good old friend Fluffington Post recently said. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes we Americans should be taking in more refugees, but you see our problem in this particular case is not one of xenophobia (that's because most of our xenophobia is reserved for Mexicans or Central Americans), but bureaucratic incompetence. We accept tens of thousands of refugees each year, in 2013 we accepted nearly seventy thousand, during the eighties we would accept more than one hundred thousand each year. But you see, there is a "process" which you must go through, paperwork must be filled out, background checks must be done, quotas (depending on where the refugees are from and/or what religion they are) must be met etc... We do not just accept asylum seekers on a whim. Unfortunately for the refugees this means waiting forever. Alsto003 (talk) 05:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC) Alex
 * Plus, there's the fact that most refugees today come from countries that are oceans apart from the US, so most can't reasonably get to the US without at least staying in Europe first. Most refugees don't even bother trying to get to Europe, which is why Jordan is host to 1.5 million refugees, while Hungary's not even dealing with 100,000. The kind of aid the US should provide isn't in taking in refugees, but providing material support to the countries that already have.  Frederick ♠♣♥♦ 18:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 16:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * -Is still clamoring for a article on Orban---"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 16:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is lots to say about him. Few of it positive (well at least he's not Jobbik, doesn't really count in my mind) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 17:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * the only positive out of these recent events and the climbing death toll is that the EU might get its shit together and deal with this on going tragedy. Even the more rabid tabloids in uk seem to be reversing their position. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Or it (the EU) could crack like an egg over this issue. The Eastern Europeans seem to be a slightly less accommodating towards immigrants than the Western Europeans (which is impressive when you consider just how unpopular they seem to be in Western Europe). In any case the only people who gain in this whole debacle are the euroskeptic right wing populists who have infested Europe lately. So if the EU doesn't snap in half now over this immigration debate it may still do so once one of those demagogues ends up as Prime Minister of his or her country. Alsto003 (talk) 04:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC) Alex
 * too late on that one.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 04:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm was thinking more about western European countries. Judging by the polls I've seen if Dutch parliamentary elections were held tomorrow this guy would be the Prime Minister of the Netherlands. Alsto003 (talk) 05:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC) Alex
 * Aside from the blatant bigotry, wouldn't accepting the Christian refugees at the very least reduce the economic pressure on the other European states, since one less Christian mouth to feed is still one less mouth to feed? CorruptUser (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What makes you think bigots like these care about non-Western Christians? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:15, 6 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

The "boat people" of way back in the Vietnam war era and their descendants outperform "native born" people as well as the general population in terms of formal education as well as income. I am loath to argue the merits of immigration on economic grounds. But in the long run refugees tend to benefit countries who receive them with open arms. Just think of the giant shoot-your-own-knee of Spain and Portugal when they expelled the Sephardi Jews. Or what happened to France after the Huguenots were expelled. In order to be politically prosecuted, you first have to have political opinions. People who have political opinions tend to be more intelligent thaen those that don't. Plus, you know... crossing from Syria to France for example is not a trivial task and takes guts, intelligence and brawn. All things that help in getting stuff done as well. In short: refugees are among the best immigrants a country can wish for in the long run. And Eastern Europe needs immigration. Just look at the birth-rates Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Pensacola Christian College
I know this is a shit school and all but I made an unsurprising discovery, according to studentreview.com 52% of students state they would not return to the school. It is not shocking considering the school is more like a prison. Here is a link- http://www.studentsreview.com/FL/Pensacola_Christian_College.html
 * So shitty that Cracked once did an life experience article about one of the PCC's female students. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 23:33, 3 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

I read it and it was entertaining, if you ever want a good comedy story then explore PCC's website. Now a sad fact that should be added to the actual article is the fact that most of their staff has their degrees from this school.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And yet, they want to be an accredited school. I'm kinda worried about this country's future...~Zeexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Also, the school computer I use blocked the school site. The first reason was bizarre (Educational Institution), but the other reason made so much more sense (Religious). Hopefully they don't call me into the office, since I took a snapshot of the block. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 00:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

From my knowledge PCC is accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools and it is (sadly) recognized by the U.S Department of Education. On a side note- If I ran a secular science program there would be no way in hell I would want a PCC, BJU or Cedarville graduate in it.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:28, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And what of the Libertyfags?

Actually, I would, so that I could let him/her get totally humiliated by his much more educated peers. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 00:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Southern Association of Colleges and Schools for Liberty University. Also from what I read about LU's School of Osteopathic Medicine on a thread from the Student Doctor Network Website it seems that several of the Osteopathic students claim the LU osteopathic school is hardly religious. I do not buy it however.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they're the new transfers from Duke? Or is that their Bible Interpretation 101? Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 00:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

If they want a religious medical college then they should go to Baylor University Medical School. At least it is a good school and has high rankings. The fun part is the school rejects Young Earth Creationism but is owned by the Baptist Church.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And what a wise decision they've made. The Baptist Church itself rejects YECs. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 01:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Now if they want a decent YEC med school there is always Loma Linda University.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 14:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, my Chem. teacher showed us a video about nuclear medicine. Which came from Loma Linda. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 23:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Even though it seems fashionable to yell in hysterical high-pitched voices that young earth creationists are sub-human first order retarded cunts, if I had a brain tumor requiring surgery the first person I'd want doing my operation is Ben Carson. Just in case some actual rationality has any place here... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 05:20, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not saying Carson is a bad doctor or trying to be irrational, I was merely questioning the quality of LU Osteopathic Medical College--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:01, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, not sure how I misread that; that I wholeheartedly agree with. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 22:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Well misunderstandings occur, especially on the internet because it is hard how people convey words. As for Pensacola Christian College (yes I know it seems random) their campus looks more like a mall than a school; I say this because when I was exploring the TRACS website I saw a picture of the school and it seriously looks like a mall.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Is trump an actual fascist?
Or does he just play one on TV? ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 13:31, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought fascists were better at grassroots organizations. Does Trump even have such a thing?  - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 13:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Does the Klan count? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 13:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

If he isn't a fascist than no one is and fascism does not exist. He is a demagogic populist who used hatred of minorities to advance his political career. The fact that he is more moderate on other issues like the economy just worries my more, fascists were never ultra-capitalists. Add to that that he's also a narcissist par excellence and you've got for a really, really scary presidential candidate. Alsto003 (talk) 05:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC) Alex


 * I actually see a big similarity between him and Hitler. Let's do a thought experiment: Both preached that the existing political system was a failure and needed to be changed (Hitler: Wiemar partisans, Trump: GOP and Dems). Both said that a certain group of people was responsible for all of our problems (Hitler: Jews, Trump: Mexicans). Both had an immense love of country and wanted to make the country great again, economically and militarily (Hitler: fear France, evil Britain and the Russians!, Trump: fear ISIS, evil Russia and China!). Discounted by the media, but rose by popular vote. It really is eerie. If Trump gets elected, he could end up making America like Nazi Germany, with a massive military-industrial complex, many wars (I would hit ISIS so hard (implying a full military invasion of Iraq and Syria)), etc. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 01:18, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You might as well say they were both politicians. EVERY politician says the current system is a failure, and had 'immense love of country and wanted to make it great again', most politicians blame foreigners or some other group, etc. CorruptUser (talk) 01:22, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * CorruptUser I am simply saying he is more like Hitler than any other candidate in the race for US president. Not all politicians say that the current system is a failure. My ultimate point is that he should not be president, people shouldn't vote for him, and they shouldn't support him. Instead, they should support Bernie Sanders. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 02:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Has anyone checked, if he has only one ball, too?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 01:31, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Your comparisons are pathetically weak. Might as well argue that since Obama and Hitler both advocated for universal health care, Obama is a Nazi.  I can't tell if you are foolish or trolling. CorruptUser (talk) 02:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The key test is, could he make Amtrak run on time?--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 02:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm from the northeast where Amtrak is awesome, what with the Albany-NYC line and the Acela express. So, yes he can, I guess. CorruptUser (talk) 02:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

CorruptUser I was kind of joking, but I just wanted to get the comparison out there. Again, the main point is he should not be anywhere near Washington or a public office. Pbfreespace3 (talk) 02:33, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're somewhat right. He does't have much in common with Hitler but he's more like a modern varient of generic fascism ala Mussolini, or at least as close as a major candidate for president in the US can come to it. The similiraties you named are too general but I would argue that his open endorsement of militaristic dominance of middle eastern countries and the plunging of their resources (he outright said we should just take their oil), his mercantilist trade policy in which countries are competing companies, his focus on white identity politics and nativism, his open content of parts of the constitution that promote egalitarianism/civil rights and his desire to ignore them, his utter lack of care for non-natives, his treating of economic policy as a secondary concern to nationalistic ones, his running on mainly his personality and without much substance, and him legitimizing himself by battling an unseen and exaggerated leftist enemy (often in the form of "Political correctness") also makes it silly to ignore his similaries to other far-right, post-fascist parties. ClothCoat (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Categories
Do we have a category for "bright people who think they are geniuses and end up being fools", other than maybe Dunning Kruger? That is, people who are obviously smarter than the average, but whose perceptions of themselves is so overinflated they look like idiots instead? For example, Nassim Taleb, Ayn Rand, Ron Paul, and so forth? Not sure if we even need it as a category to be honest. CorruptUser (talk) 15:50, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We have plenty of vague arbitrary categories for people already. Just file them under extreme wingbattery or unremitting assholes or whatever the latest thing is.  19:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * To name a few possibilities, there's: Category:Insufferable assholes, Category:Smooth-talking bastards, Category:Liberal moonbattery, Category:Libertarian wingnuttery, and Category:Centrist stupidity. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 20:18, 4 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

Ancient Aliens
I feel the whole idea of Ancient aliens to to BS. Honestly if aliens every visited Earth the only logical reason is zoology studies because maybe aliens discovered Earth and they wondered how much different our biology is compared to theirs.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:21, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The whole concept of ancient aliens is totally Woo, but I can see why they claim aliens are real. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 03:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Open your minds sheeple. It's all here Ancient_aliens ;) . --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 03:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Humans are incapable of building things. Atleast older humans. It was different with modern humans. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 03:42, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Stop! The sheeple can never know of the truth that us Freemasons are obviously masters at hiding from everyone. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 03:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt'

Lets say we are a product of genetic engineering ( I am not saying impossible but VERY unlikely) why would aliens build everything for mankind? Would they not want to see how mankind progresses on its own? I used to be on board with the ancient aliens concept but overtime I realized it was BS--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 04:03, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Because ancient aliens yo. It's worthy to note that most ancient aliens are building all that cool -non white culture shit-, nobody is questioning how Rome or Greece built things but the egyptians? The heads over on whatever easter island is actually called? The mayincatec? Had to be aliens yo.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 04:06, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm actually a proponent of Renaissance Aliens. Galileo?  Da Vinci?  Aliens.  But back to your point, yeah that does sound pretty fucking racist. CorruptUser (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In fairness, European cultures didn't build quite as big and majestic structures in ancient times as many other cultures did. Explaining a bunch of columns with a roof on top isn't exactly complicated. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 14:30, 5 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Large stones on Salisbury Plain. Majestic yes, but not much structural engineering --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 14:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and despite the latter (and being located in Europe) it still gets all sort of magical/aliens-y woo tacked on to explain how it got there. I think it's more a matter of not-well-known/not-well-documented history (which regrettably includes a lot of non-Western history) having an aura of 'mysteriousness' so people are more prone to insert aliens of the gaps there. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 14:42, 5 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * But Egypt is rather well documented. It's just that Egyptologists are to Archaeology what String Theorists are to Physics or Evolutionary Psychologists are to Biology. CorruptUser (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's that, but there's also the fact that what little most people 'know' about Egypt comes from largely false stereotypes and biblical pseudohistory like the tale of Moses. Sadly education of history is often mostly focused on Western history. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 15:42, 5 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * And most people learn about Rome from a Christian perspective. Really, a Roman Governor in the most rebellious province in the Empire sees a guy running around declaring himself the new king?  Yeah, Pontius Pilate would just let him keep on running around. CorruptUser (talk) 15:57, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I take your point on that, but not sure it is true worldwide. Certainly even my junior school education contained a bit of non-Jesus Roman History and then lots more at high school. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 16:03, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I dunno about "most", but yes, in many countries people's view of history is also distinctly tainted by a Christian perspective, on top of the more general West-centrism. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 16:07, 5 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

On the same subject, I went into a bookshop today and was delighted to see they had Erich von Däniken... on the Science fiction shelf. Bicycle wheel  17:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

If aliens did build stuff on Earth then why do they not build more stuff?--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Because they got bored and left Earth? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 22:46, 7 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

Using the ancient aliens piss poor logic, they probably would use it as an excuse.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 12:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Who? What? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 16:30, 8 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

If you are wondering what I was talking about, I meant was the idea of using aliens as an excuse for everything. If it is not what you meant then I do not know.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I made an interesting discovery by accident
I was looking for some information on Chemical Evolution for a response on a Facebook article when I came across a website by accident. It is called "The American Science Affiliation", I am not sure if it is YEC but I is religious. Might make a good article- http://network.asa3.org/?ASAbeliefs --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 04:22, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dunno, the link's dead. 404. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 04:27, 5 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Here is a different link- http://network.asa3.org/ --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 12:40, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

When I tried to go to one of the website's pages, a popup appeared saying that i need to download some bullshit product. It might not be a good idea to go there, even with adblock and a good antivirus. KOM 20:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Maybe they laced their site with viruses on purpose (I am just joking though). On a side note- when I explored their site I could not find anything linking them to Young Earth Creationism.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Most likely a site for Christian scientists to connect. As far as I know, it is pretty separate and makes no claims about them being a single thing. Overall secular site. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 00:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Jeremy Corbyn
Has anyone else thought about writing this article? I know it has been suggested a few times. My own knowledge of Jeremy is not bad from the 1980s and 1990s, but anything more recent would just come from reading media articles. Does anybody fancy collaborating on the article? If so, I will stick it up in my sandbox. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 06:29, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's on the to-do list, but I think people are waiting until he actually becomes leader, even if it looks like a foregone conclusion. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 17:51, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you can safely go ahead now. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 13:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hoofuckinray! I'll drink to that. Kick out the Blairites Jezza! Scream!! (talk) 15:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

San Diego Christian College
For the article I mentioned they were accredited by the WACS but I checked their site and found no record of them there. If anyone can find information just reply.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I just looked up our article for Malala Yousafzai.
Seriously guys? Two paragraphs? We can do better than this! Master NecromancerWhat is dead may never die 21:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and write, good sir. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 07:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * She's not a crank or a fascist. In RationalWiki's sphere of influence (developed nations, esp. English-speaking ones) she's fairly well regarded, and doesn't need defending (excepting the occasional MRA calling her a coward because hey, they've got quotas to meet, dammit.  Fucked up shit doesn't say itself).  So I don't know how much there is to write about.--Tanis (talk) 19:01, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Eh.. Hello, everyone
Dunno if this is the best place to put this, but It looks like it fits the bill

I've been lurking for the past few months, however, I'd like to attempt to actually have a part in this Site's goal, so I'll probably stick around and edit the main space a bit more.

Not much to know about me except that my primary reason here is my weak-mind (read: Gullibility) and as a way to improve my writing (It's terrible). I'm hoping my time here could help alleviate both issues. And really, the internet is a minefield of crankery, so why not aid what's been my go-to place whenever I find any not-so-obvious/hard-to-debunk bullshit?

Honestly though, I've been seeing a psychologist due to almost going off the deep-end, and this site's been a great aid in helping me cling to my sanity. I have a habit of being more... receptive to Conspiracy Theories, and if this site didn't exist, I have no idea what I'd be doing right now. Not only do I want to I thank you for that, but I hope I can be a benefit to the mission of this site as a whole.--Pokefrazer (talk) 23:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Pull up a goat and you'll fit right in. =) Welcome, lurker! 01:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Some parts of the wiki have a hateful or anti theist tone.
And some use so many cuss words that they don't sound rational but instead sound hateful. R rated language makes you sound like a gang banger not a rational person. Proper English makes you sound smart. Just my comment about this wiki.
 * You have any particular examples? Also, what is wrong with anti theism? Some people will argue that religions actively harm humanity. SuperDude,Where's my car? 08:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * p.s. sign your name by putting in four ~'s. SuperDude,Where's my car? 08:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What the fuck is wrong with being anti theist? :-) Scream!! (talk) 08:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Cuss words - I have not heard that for so many years :) . But yeah, like they ^^ said.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 08:29, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bloody cuss-words are protected by the fucking First Amendment, just as choosing any religion one likes or none at all. If that displeases you, maybe America or the Internet are not the place for you. Also, I wanted to insert the word cunt, but I can't find a motherfucking place in all seven hells that would not disrupt the flow. Cheers Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 09:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You do, of course, have the right to be as obnoxious as you want except... part of our mission is to be a welcoming place for those looking to question their faith. Meeting them with a torrent of bad language is hardly welcoming. What is more, as an example, the reason why the Python's won the Life of Brian debate was because they were polite, reasonable and respectful. That, on its own, persuaded many that they weren't the evil people they had been portrayed as. So, yeah, swear all you want but, as our BoN friend says, it "makes you sound like a gang banger not a rational person".
 * As for the anti-theist, well, duh! Of course we are. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 12:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I find the term "gang-banger" racist and offensive. The IP should apologize for having used it. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 14:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This phrase is not racist or offensive per se, but is often used as a dog-whistle to accuse all blacks of being prone to organized crime and I have the strong suspicion, that the BoN meant it exactly that way (and proved, that s/he is not worthy of being avenged by Avengerofthe BoN).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 14:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Aye. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And why the fuck would that be a problem?!--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 13:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I offended someone with the term gang banger. The point of this post is just to say that cuss words make a knowledge base like a wiki look very unprofessional. And also if you don't like religion then you not treating everyone as equal. Last I checked it is very progressive to treat everyone as equal not caring if they are gay Christian Buddhist or part of some conspiracy cult. Yes some religions are indeed insane but others have very good moral codes. Maybe if the wiki was not so hateful some religious people may read it and gain some much needed knowledge about the quacks and cranks that infest there religion and make it look bad. 68.148.171.6 (talk) 23:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why in the kurwa mac do you think, that this wiki wants to be "professional" (or your weird-ass definition of "professional") or treating anyone equal?! This ain't the Wikipedia, bro, there's no Dana NPOV, only Zuul SPOV (and judging by the context, your use of gang-bangers sounds too much like certain dog-whistles racists use).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 23:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are many theists on this site so it can't be that bad. Before you talk about all these other standards you imagine RW should live up to, read the mission statement. I challenge you to raise one valid reason why swearing is unprofessional as this seems to be the increasingly common knee-jerk reaction of "sheltered" people on the internet. &#60;-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-&#62; (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Talk about trying to forcibly accommodate a balance fallacy here. There's absolutely no inherent logic in intrinsically treating every faith or opinion as equally valid, and just because there's two (or more) sides to an issue, doesn't mean that the answer has to lie somewhere inbetween. One side could simply be right. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

&#60;-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-&#62; The reason why I don't like profane language in a wiki is because It makes the wikis articles look more like quickly written forum posts made by someone who could care less about the topic and only about how many cuss words he can get in the post. Put simply it looks rude and irrational rather then civil and well thought out. And I don't what you mean by "sheltered" people.68.148.171.6 (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no fucking reason to censor profanity. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I never said censor. I only said make it less common in the articles.And this is not a attack on the wiki just a comment. It's fine to have it here. This is just comments about the wiki. You can say your mind no matter how rude it may be.68.148.171.6 (talk) 23:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The concern troll is strong in this one.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 23:43, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict). Why should it be less common? You still have failed to provide any reasons, simply repeated the same assertions. Why does swearing make it look less "civil" and thought out? Please, provide examples, reasoning or any kind of base for your claims. &#60;-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-&#62; (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok just give me some time. And I'm sorry if this was seen as trolling that was far from my goal. Oh and can you please make a article about atheists who pretty well worship science Religious types get attacked to much compared to atheists. This has nothing to do with the above topic it was just a idea the came into my head. And I'm still searching the wiki for examples. I really should have done more research before starting this. 68.148.171.6 (talk) 23:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (HIMMEL ARSCH UND WOLKENBRUCH edit conflict) I'd say, that the articles about Scientism and Secular religions cover that already, but if you think otherwise... Write an article, this is a wiki, a collaborative project, where even non-registered users a.k.a. BoNs can create articles (but have a look at the links in the template on your talkpage to know, how to write a RW article).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 00:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Balance fallacy may apply here. Please provide examples of atheists worshipping science. And for your examples of swearing decreasing the quality of an article, good luck finding them. Arisboch, I checked those pages and it doesn't seem to be what he means, but maybe he meant something like that. &#60;-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-&#62; (talk) 23:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Balance fallacy Never heard of that one. Oops on my part. I can't find sorry... Well now I look like a fool. Can we end this topic now? 68.148.171.6 (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but remember if you still want to contribute you can just write an article yourself or edit anything without a protection that would apply to you (protections are uncommon). Use help under navigation to understand more. &#60;-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-&#62; (talk) 00:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok68.148.171.6 (talk) 00:19, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "All these young uns' with their gang-bangin' and hip-hoppin!" Bad @ splleing... (talk) 20:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

good moral code
HI 68.148.171.6 You've been asked several times to cite examples to back up your claims...but then didn't. That is lovely question avoiding. I know this topic was about donkey shit and vagina cheese... but I can't resist asking you to elaborate on something. You claimed that "Yes some religions are indeed insane but others have very good moral codes." That is extremely interesting. Which religion...would you say has this good moral code? Are you speaking broadly about their moral codes or a few chosen rules that sound nice? How do you decide if a moral code is a good moral code? Shabi DOO  22:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

What do you guys think of this group?
What do you guys think of the Capitol Steps?

Here's a sample if you guys need clarification: Capitol Steps Site


 * P Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 10:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

From what I understand, it seems to be a site that is satirical page about the government.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 15:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Mod Election Voting Results
Moved to Forum:mod election 2015 Bicycle  wheel  17:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Arisboch's new template
This is the kind of thing that needs to be nipped in the bud. If someone wants to be all internet-aggressive, they can use their own words. What says the mob? Alec Sanderson (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Do we really need a custom template for this? Why even welcome racists? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:24, 7 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * This is feeding the trolls on a shiny silver platter. Nuke it. No good can come out of templatizing insults. -Shtrominer (talk) 17:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Damn, I explicitly wrote on the talkpage, where I got the inspiration for this template, that I'm not sure, if this template should be used at all.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 17:40, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was supposed to ever be actually used. That being said, our current "unwelcome" template is somewhat tame... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, "than". Did Avenger infect your grammar, Arisboch? ;) 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:41, 7 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Nope, I had a hard time with "then" and "than" even before I started editing RW.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 17:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Potato patata, it's all the same... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 17:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Than is for comparisons, then is when time is involved. It's not too complicated. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:49, 7 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Than/then confusion seems to be a German (sometimes Dutch) thing. SmartFeller (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It's a user template. IDGAF. 17:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You'd gladly asphyxiate fish? You monster! 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:16, 7 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Where else would I get my trout?
 * 18:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 18:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Random Hypothetical Scenario
Let's say that a fairly large (~30) group of people started relentlessly trolling the site. What would we do? KOM 19:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ride the escape goat to safety! Baaaaa *vraoooooom*  -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 19:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If how we handled that goatse attack is any indication, wage a war to ban them while working on the edit filter. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 20:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What goatse attack? KOM 21:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What was it, two, three years ago now? There was this big vandalism spree that involved Goatse which abused a template on the wiki to leave us unable to view RC.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 21:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would say ban the people, and pass it off as a normal trolling and leave it, it isnt abnormal us getting trolled. Bubba41102is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an editor 12:57, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Can we get a article of Gill Broussard and planet 7X?
http://www.planet7x.com/ http://www.counciloftimefraud.info/the-lie.html The end times pastors love this guy and mike from around the world. Research them both. Oh And make a page about September 23 it's is the new apocalypse day. The end times guys think these two are omniscient if you look at them. 68.148.171.6 (talk) 05:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Use RationalWiki:To do list/Suggestions for article suggestions. 18:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Randomness
I recently saw that Secular Talk did two segments about Conservapedia. It turns out that his viewers are trying to change CP, and they have apparently succeed somewhat. (They removed some of the false statements in the article about Secular Talk, but not all). Hopefuly this is the end of the end for Conservapeda. KOM 09:02, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't see how, if Schlafly is still maintaining his iron control of the site. --Castaigne (talk) 14:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Won't happen. Edit an obscure article, fine, but don't say you did or that's the end of it. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 08:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Creation Science
Recently I was in Vegas for a three-day vacation and on the last day I saw some fundy protesters right outside of Planet Hollywood. I just screamed in their faces how God ain't real. The next time I encounter these people, I want to be prepared with more knowledge. Any advice or articles for it? Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 16:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Discussing with these punks is just marginally more productive than counting the ants in your garden (stole that line from an awesome webcomic).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 17:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I know. But I just relish those rare fights. "What about the kids in Africa!? What about the drug cartels!?" And I called out this African-American protester (I feel uncomfortable saying someone is black) telling him those are the same people who 40 years ago would have called him racist names and segregated him. All he said was, "You need Jesus, kid." Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Seriously, it isn't worth it. I find a better comparison is teaching a pig to fly. You're wasting your time and you're annoying the pig. And they're still a pig. But really, if you want information, do research on particular arguments or points. RW is a good starting block, but there are many other, better places to go from there. Go through the references for articles. As for calling people "black," a lot of black people take offense at being called African-American (my boyfriend's family among them).AyzmoCheers 20:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd keep that in mind. Those Christians are the worst. But that place being Vegas, I can expect to see them on a future visit to warn of God's wrath. Until then, I'll be waiting. With my fake eye to disprove them. Even if it's pointless arguing... Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 20:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * What do you hope to gain from this? 20:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why are you confronting them? Are you doing this just to be an anti-theist asshole? Emulating "The Amazing Atheist" or Thunderf00t is not impressive in the least. --Castaigne (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope. Encountered them by accident and they were also insulting my people and beliefs, so I just took a massive emotional attack from it. T'was a mistake, but I can't reverse that now. I feel guilty for that now, actually. I don't even know the protesters' group or names. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * How, exactly, were they insulting your people and beliefs? --Castaigne (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Mexicans are dirty half-brown ****s who should go back to Tacoland." No, I'm not making it up. :/ Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 21:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Holy flying fuck, this is omega-nasty!--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Along with some more insults that got more personal and would rather not post. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 03:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Sometimes I find it best to ignore them, it is like arguing with a brick wall.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 14:49, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

The name of the game is Shouting At Lunatics. The goal is to go as long as possible before you succumb to the urge. And we all play it, every day. Semipenultimate (talk) 18:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I won't make that stupid mistake again. Stooping to their level doesn't make me superior. Thanks. But if I just hear something like that being said about me and my skin color, well, just threaten to record and put it on Tumblr. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 02:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Article ideas: TRACS & more fundie schools
Looking through the page TRACS, I was thinking making articles on schools accredited by them. One that stood out the most (at least in my opinion) was "Boston Baptist College". I explored their website and I think Boston Baptist would make a good article, from what I understand it seems their "science" courses seem less scientific than Bob Jones University or Liberty University. I will post a link to their science page- http://boston.edu/academics/course-descriptions/31-business-busi-sp-565. While on the subject on colleges another idea I have is making articles on Naturopathic Medical colleges. There could be room for a project like that --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * TRACS itself looks like it could use some cleanup and a bit more depth. They list a large number of Christian colleges as accredited; not just Boston Baptist. A general review of all the schools on their list would be quite a research project. They seem to be a high budget organization with a very small office . --Cosmikdebris (talk) 00:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I will try digging up information later, though I might get to work on an article on Boston Baptist--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I know Pensacola Christian College has staff with questionable qualifications, almost all of them have degrees from PCC.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 15:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I suggest there are two different topics at work here: TRACS and specific examples of fundie schools.
 * To take up the latter topic first, I think that any fundie school with an even worse science curriculum than BJU/BU/PCC merits a dishonourable mention on RW, so feel free to get cracking on the Boston Baptist College. Especially if it's not simply a trailer park diploma mill á la the Patriot Bible University, but an institution which is at least trying to emulate an actual academic establishment (e.g. by having faculties, a campus, proper lectures, staff with non-diploma mill degrees etc.).
 * On the subject of TRACS, the approach of just listing the dubious holders of their accreditation will either be superficial (because a list of institutions will not be very informative) or, as Cosmikdebris pointed out, involve an insane amount of work. So, while the latter "Matthewan" approach"Ye shall know them by their fruits" might be both thorough and informative, I doubt whether it's feasible in terms of the time- and workload involved. Instead, and because I do think TRACS merits an investigation, I'd suggest looking into how TRACS actually evaluates those educational (and I use the term very loosely here) establishments which apply for accreditation: Who accredits the accreditors? (to ). It would be especially interesting to contrast the accreditation procedure, staff and evaluation criteria used by TRACS with those used by accreditation agencies with more, shall we say, credibility. Of course this shouldn't preclude the TRACS article from linking to those of its accredited institutions, such as BJU and PCC, which already have articles on RW, or from adding new ones to the TRACS article as they get their own RW entries. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ADDENDUM: Either the TRACS or the fundie school article might also be amended to include a mention of fundie schools, like Biola University and Houston Baptist University,Neither "university" has an RW entry, but these are their most (in)famous apologists which do seem to have obtained some (more?) legitimate accreditation, despite their "statements of faith" including biblical literalism and other dogma completely incompatible with proper, free, academic enquiry. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * On a related note, I think we could usefully think of this aspect of the US educational system as operating on a sliding scale:
 * From legitimate academic institutions at the top, over gradually increasing fundamentalism and blatant disregard of science (from Biola to Bob Jones, so to speak), and ending with bottom feeders of the diploma mill variant, such as Patriot Bible University, whose veneer of "academicity" can be measured in microns. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:15, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've started to take a stab at analyzing TRACS, and will compile what I've found into the article over the next few days. What was striking is that the Institute for Creation Research tried for years to create an accreditation organization for fundie schools, then finally after getting TRACS started and approved, TRACS turned around and accredited the ICR "graduate school." To me this puts academic accreditation itself in a poor light. It's as if the Department of Education finally had enough of ICR's shit, and gave in. TRACS, it seems, had a bit of a rough start; I'll try and dig out the sources and build up the article. --Cosmikdebris (talk) 18:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I added some stuff on TRACS accreditation protocol, do not worry I did not copy word for word. I used basic information are put it in different wording. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 12:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I got a start on Boston Baptist but sadly it is not much, there was not a lot of information to work with.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is a Fundie school or not but what might make an interesting addition would be Great Lakes Christian College. It is the only school I know of where it is required to have a double major. From what I have read, even if someone has a psychology major, they have to double major in bible studies.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 16:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

My dad has passed away
I've just found out that my dad has passed away at the age of 70 as a result of heart problems. The worst thing for me is that i hadn't seen him or spoken to him for six years. He was in Britain, I was in Taiwan and I don't have a phone of any description. I suppose the last words I said to him must have been "Goodbye' at the airport in 2009, so I suppose it could have been worse.

My mum and my sister want me to come home but I'd really rather not.

Soon I'll have to go off to work and be very cheerful in front of a class of three Taiwanese 7-year olds who only started learning English last week. It might be a bit of a struggle. Spud (talk) 04:34, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I personally don't know what it is like to lose a beloved one, but I give my greatest condolences to you and hope for your emotional recovery and those of your family. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 04:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * My condolances. SuperDude,What does mine say? Sweet! 07:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And mine. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 08:11, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Mine, too.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 12:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I very sincerely feel your pain. So sorry--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 12:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dammit Spud. So sorry to hear this. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * i really cant think of anything that has already been said, but i give you my condolances Bubba41102is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an editor 12:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My condolences. I lost my own dad 4 years ago, and there's not a day goes by when I don't think of him in some way. Nothing I can say will make any difference, but for what it's worth - it does get better, and my only advice is to focus on what you want to do and feel, not what you are supposed to do/feel. Vaya Con Dios. Worm (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So very sorry to hear of your loss. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 14:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I am sorry for your loss. It's unfortunate that you weren't able to talk to him.--Owlman (talk) 15:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My condolences, Spud. I lost my mom in December and I'm still reeling from it.  It will take time to heal.  Aboriginal Noise (talk) 16:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Moment of silence for your late father, Spud. Stay strong, buddy. You can to make a real, tangible difference for those children. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you all for your messages of support. They really mean a lot to me. Thanks especially for sharing your own experiences of loss.

I think it should clarify that I did communicate with my dad through email, Facebook and the good old-fashioned post in the six years since 2009. I just never spoke to him on the phone in that time.

It was two hours after I made the original post here that I cried for the first time. That was when I went to work and had to say aloud, "My father has died", to another human being. Quite a different experience from just typing words to that effect on a keyboard. The first lesson with the three 7-year old girls went quite well. In the next lesson, the kids were misbehaving. I put on my stern teacher face. A girl asked, "Are you OK?" I had to say, "No, I'm not OK. My father died last night." I remained pretty grumpy for the rest of the hour. Before my other classes, I felt I owed it to my students to explain why I wasn't feeling very happy that day. The kids tried to offer me some sympathy but they're only aged 8 to 12 and most of them still have all four grandparents living. They really don't understand what's happened.

I'm not feeling too bad right now. But I feel different and I'm not sure I'll ever feel quite the same again. Spud (talk) 05:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought I had put a message here already. Sorry for your loss. 09:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

UPcoming video game 01
Does anyone else think Fallout 4 will be dumbed down from the other games in the series?

Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As a Bethesda game, I expect it will take several rounds of patching before it is actually playable. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 00:38, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, let's say both the modders and the developers clean up the mess, then what will the game be like? I've already heard numerous complaints games like Oblivion and Skyrim in the ES series (especially Oblivion) are dumbed down from their predecessors. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 01:02, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * To be honest I'm not really sure how much there is that could be dumbed down, besides a few obvious UI improvements. That being said I've been trying to avoid news about it, so that I don't enter a "they changed it now it sucks" state of mind. I want to experience it without prior expectations. (You know, besides all the other Bethesda RPGs). Samstr (talk) 01:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that dumbed down is an overused buzzword that doesn't really mean anything. Vulpius (talk) 01:56, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ^ this. Samstr (talk) 02:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I myself avoid these news, but whenever someone praises something in this upcoming game (key word here) it usually refers to some new killing mechanic or something. The crafting system itself already looks dumbed down: the only bench we see in the trailer and the only one it was mentioned in e3 was a weapons bench, which in reality is backwards. Now the whole game looks geared towards killing like your little kiddie Call of Duty Black Ops game. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Dumbing down" usually makes these games better. I play them as exploring games rather than goal-oriented games.  Combat is mostly a nuisance. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 15:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I started playing TES with Morrowind. I played Daggerfall just to see what all the fuss was about, and maybe 5 minutes of Arena just to say I did before giving up.  Yeah, Daggerfall was impressive for its time, and the randomly generated dungeons were nice, but meh, Morrowind was better in spite of being compact.  Oblivion was an improvement over Morrowind on a number of things but a disappontment in others, and Skyrim was mostly an improvement over both.  "Dumbed down" just means "they took out the overcomplicated nonsense no one really wanted anyway".  Did we really need "left pauldron" and a dozen other armor slots along with each item of clothing as opposed to Skyrim's 4 piece armor?  Did we really need "short blade" skill and "long blade" and "axe", etc, over just "one hand" and "two hand"?  Did we really need 0 mana regen until halfway through the game and you found some unique items? 24.94.59.147 (talk) 03:35, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Graphics were okay for their time, but overall Oblivion was the most dumbed down, especially with the Acrobatics skill, which was a joke. That game really just felt like it was holding your hand to the missions. There were improvements to the interface but the gameplay was atrocious. I didn't feel alone in this: (Note: he addresses the target audience of the game as "casuals", which is an oversimplification, so keep that in mind) Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 03:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, anyone that non-ironically uses the term "casuals" in gaming deserves a good punch in the face. Anyway, Oblivion's main flaw was the lack of depth to Cyrodil.  Morrowind was its own unique world, filthy outlander, Skyrim was basically Norway (even Gloomreach, yeah, it's real), but Oblivion was just "generic medieval setting".  The leveling system was awful as well, but Morrowind's system was just as flawed.  Skyrim fixed the leveling, somewhat, though as far as I could tell the future of Skyrim looked bleak given its progressively more dangerous bear infestation. CorruptUser (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A punch in the face? Why? --Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 04:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * For being what we call "hardcore gamers." Anyway, Corruptuser's description of Skyrim as Danish/Norway was spot on: I personally don't see how people say Oblivion is better than Skyrim (maybe for "console gamers", but then that's probably me demanding too much for games). Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 04:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's just MOON: Remix with guns. 03:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Basically. Funny how I know this. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 03:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Huh? I'm making a joke. Fallout is nothing like MOON: Remix. 09:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I know. I'm just saying I happen to know that game. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

National Sigh Day.
This year's version: US children born on 9/11 are now legally eligible to hold part-time jobs in many fields; people still blowing each other up over "BUT MUH 9/11". [braces for drone strike] ArcticVixen (talk) 12:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * MURICA!!!! YEAHHHH!!!!! Bubba41102is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike an editor 13:56, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm about an hour and a half outside New York City, in Connecticut, and it's satisfying to see the Freedom Tower standing as our giant middle finger to al-Qaeda (I guess the equivalent in the Arab world would be a giant thumbs up, but hey). However much one may like or dislike the US, the fact is that it's still standing and bin Laden is decomposing under the ocean; irrespective of any other world issues, at least that one got the bullet he had coming to him. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい ) 00:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Tumblr's thoughts
We're too disrespectful of religion and too fawning over Dawkins, apparently. 13:31, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In other news: People are still people and misconceptions still abound. Also, when I read that title I was worried Tumblr had become sentient for a sec there. >.> 142.124.55.236 (talk) 13:37, 11 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * I was worried a Tumblr user had become sentient. 94.8.157.220 (talk) 20:25, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Addict admits to lying about finding God at sentencing.
Story in my local newspaper about a man who admitted who lied about finding God to receive a lighter sentence over possession for the purpose of trafficking.--Cms13ca 13:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Damn! This proves atheists have no morals! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Someone's mad
Not sure who. 15:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Looks like a pretty standard conspiracy-mongering site. --Tweenk (talk) 17:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks to that I learned we actually have a WP page now.  PsyGremlin undefined 12:46, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikispooks is either the brainchild of, or has collaborative links with, a long time RW friend. I won't mention any names but the article linked from the Wikispooks article is one of his. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 15:44, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I like that the article's sole thing against us is "someone wrote an essay and it was deleted BOO CENSORSHIP!" - while not saying the actual essay is still here. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 07:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Best of all is that we allow anonymous edits, while I didn't see any edit buttons on wikispooks to allow a BoN to actually add that (as Bicycle Wheel hilariously points out) the essay in question is still avaliable on RW! Talk about crankery. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:36, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Even talk pages are locked, which speaks volumes for their openness and willingness to debate the issues they raise. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 21:56, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Grand Theft Auto
It's been requested that the video game Grand Theft Auto be a page by itself. I'm wondering how would that work out? I'm hoping that if it does turn into a page it doesn't become less than a summary of the plot and controversies surrounding the game.

Also, if we were to cover Grand Theft Auto, wouldn't we have to cover other video games like Mortal Combat and Shadow of Mordor to maintain consistency with our mission statement? Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 21:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So the criteria is, if enough people get their panties in a bunch about a game, it get's an article at RW?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:19, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty much (well, typically if the right winged pundits trash about something). Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 21:28, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It be nice, if only the right-wing nuts'd be getting their panties in a bunch about games...--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:30, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * An article could be valuable. However, it should focus on attacks and controversy around the game, rather than the game itself. Samstr (talk) 21:32, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In what ways could it be valuable? Video game talks a little about the game. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 21:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily against it, but it seems a little arbitrary. Is the sexism in Grand Theft Auto especially more relevant to us than, say, the sexism in Game of Thrones? (Something I've rarely if ever seen mentioned on RW, despite the attention it's got from media & the blogosphere). Are all sex-&-violence controversies around popular media individually worth covering, or is it just that RW has become fixated with video games above all other mediums? 12:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Now for an article idea about video games, I have one- Bible games, yes they exist and are made by a Christian gaming company known as Wisdom Tree. They are famous for making unlicensed Nintendo Entertainment System games.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 15:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The first Bible games we should cover are the NES games. AVGN has touched upon them... Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Windows 10
I used to be a pretty early adopter of new OSes until I got in on the Windows Vista beta, and I don't need to explain why that turned me off. Only went to W7 x64 out of necessity brought on by 32-bit RAM limitations.

I decided to just whack W10 (x86 due to performance) on my laptop since it's a very light-duty system on a 32GB SSD that I can reimage in a minute if I don't like it, plus it didn't cost me anything anyway.

Admitting that I actually really like it and am putting it on my desktop feels disgusting. ArcticVixen (talk) 02:08, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm of two minds. It's mostly improved all of the systems I've installed it on.  A lot of this is the reinstalling Windows effect: any new instance of a Microsoft OS will run better for a while, until the serious patching starts.  I wish for the love of Mother Vinegar that they'd re-enable A,B,C rather than A-H, I-P; that is really annoying, especially when you have a folder with both subfolders and files.  So far I haven't lost any software to it.  I lost the version of Word I'd used for almost twenty years, Word for Windows 95, to Windows 7.  I also lost my MIDI composing software.  I use a great deal of older software, and every frogmarched update means a risk you'll lose some of it.  -Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 04:06, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You can always get Open Office or LibreOffice as free replacements. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 08:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I got it, and my verdict: it's kay 'Legion what do you want from me  04:34, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would wait five months before getting it; might be full of bugs still. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 07:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm using it without problems.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 07:54, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've been fairly happy with it - loads nice and fine, works fine. This is a fairly clean release, bullshit like forced updates and the myriad of opt-out settings aside.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 14:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Can't say I've ever run into a situation with software being too old that couldn't be fixed with DOSBox, a VM, or just using one of my old relic machines. Clearly not solutions for everyone though. ArcticVixen (talk) 07:59, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Windows 10 OS fried my motherboard since the architecture of the OS is actually sufficiently different from 8.1 to cause incompatibilities. Newer motherboards nowadays are prepared for this change in. This is out of personal experience, so my apologies. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * W10 isn't that bad. The only problem is that sometimes Cortana just pops up. Mostly an ok OS. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 20:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * I'm not saying Windows 10 is horrible, just that since there were some architectural incompatibilities with my motherboard the motherboard itself just fried, since the OS is still relatively new with undiscovered bugs and such. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 03:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's one of those things I'm more inclined to believe is a coincidence or something without knowing more. You're literally the only complaint I've heard about that sort of thing. It's... pretty hard to screw up something that bad. 72.160.117.58 (talk) 04:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, it can happen; it's not 100% sure-fire that the new OS won't screw up the system. The rest of the computer parts were fine, so it suggests (but does not prove, admittedly) that the OS was to blame because the motherboard redirects all those instructions from the software. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 05:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

"The rest of the computer parts were fine, so it suggests..." - No, it absolutely does not. Motherboard failure is not exactly a rarity, and they commonly (I can't say "usually" without hard data) fail without damaging anything else in the system. What model of mobo and CPU? You wouldn't be the only person with that "architecture" unless you were diffusing your own silicon. so this sounds like a serious fault with Windows 10 if that's what caused it. What kind of failure mode did the motherboard suffer? What was the timing in regards to the OS installation? The fact that you share an system architecture with thousands upon thousands of people, and you're basically the first person to assign the blame to Windows 10 for a dead mobo doesn't speak well to that hypothesis. Countless motherboards blow every day without affecting any other parts for an incredible amount of reasons. It's not an uncommon occurrence, so it's a pretty big step to assume that a new OS blew it up. 72.160.117.58 (talk) 11:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm rather enjoying Windows 10 so far. My only real complaint is that they changed the default games. I have a habit of playing FreeCell when I'm on the phone, but I can't seem to get the new cards app to open at all; very frustrating. AyzmoCheers 15:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Which is why I am saying that the situation suggests that the OS blew the motherboard up, there's no proof on either side. All I can do right now is wait a couple more months until Microsoft patches those potentially dangerous bugs up in accordance with the precautionary principle. My motherboard was an ASROCK HD+ and I was using an AMD Black Edition Dual Core Richland (with integrated graphics). The motherboard packaging said specifically it was made for Windows 8.1 (it booted up nearly instantly when using that OS instead of something like Lubuntu or Linux Mint, so probably the new OS had something to do with it), so that's where the problem could have been (the motherboard burning happend hours after the installation of the new OS). Most new motherboards nowadays have a Windows 10 compatibility seal showing those can handle this transition. As for me being the only one complaining about hardware failures, I doubt it.
 * Note that none of my experiences imply Windows 10 is a horrible piece of software, just that it probably won't work all the time. Hopefully with my new compatible motherboard and an incoming 750W power supply coming in, I can play Fallout 4 flawlessly. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 15:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Indigenous peoples
We need an article on the indigenous people of the world, describing particularly the Africans, Asians, and the abuses they've encountered through capitalism and imperialism. We already have one on Native Americans but that's not really enough to give them their dignity back. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't see how lumping all the RotW in one big article is going to do anything about the marginalization of the RotW.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 18:09, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Native Americans should stay as its own article. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 18:16, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If your aim is to "give them their dignity back", an article on RationalWiki isn't the way to go about it. & If you're grouping all indigenous peoples together so that you can describe the abuses they've encountered through capitalism and imperialism, then it sounds like it would really be an article about white colonialism more than it would really be 'about' those peoples.  18:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The non-white people of this fine planet have nothing in common apart from the fact that they don't fit the arbitrary defintion of "white" invented by (you guessed it) white people... Hence an article about all of them would perpetuate the very racist oppression you want to dispel. Plus, Indigenous people(s) (rivers of ink have been spilled about this tiny s) do have their own agency. Just look at Tecumseh or the leaders of the Zulu who gave a good fight to the British (and looked like winning for quite some time) lumping them all together into one article does both sides a huge disservice and perpetuates outdated stereotypes... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It would also seem to me that the notion of 'indigenous people(s)' poses problems of definition just about anywhere in the Old World, with the possible exception of Australia or South Africa. People over yonder have been mixing it up since the human race began.  Linguistically and genetically a Brit and a Hindustani are kissin' cousins.  It's really only in the past 400 years that any one group of Old Worlders acquired the sort of military and technological ascendancy over others to make 'imperialism' and 'colonialism' meaningful labels.  - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 20:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So what do you do in the case of Vietnam, where a thousand years ago the Vietnamese committed genocide against the Degar and forced them to live in the harsher mountainous terrain? Or the Turks who, at the same time, invaded Anatolia?  Or the Saxons in the British Isles, along with the Normans?  Or the Native American tribes that were constantly at war with one another?  Or the Ainu in Japan?  "Indigenous" seems to mean only "we were the last group to hold this territory before Europeans showed up". 24.94.59.147 (talk) 03:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's part of the point. To me, at least, "imperialism" and "colonialism" and "indigenous peoples" convey strong images of people with guns fighting people with spears.  There were plenty of displaced peoples and fallen empires without that, and it's just the way of the human race. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 03:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, not being logged in was pissing me off. Anyway, it's interesting to note that it seems that only the "evil imperialists" developed a moral system that views equal rights for all as something desirable.  Or perhaps a civilization did so in the past, but their neighbors disagreed.  But anyway, in most of the world, the very idea that someone other than your tribe should have any inherent rights at all, let alone equal rights, was unheard of.  Even the Quran was downright progressive in its day, what with the "full rights for us, partial rights for subjugated peoples of the book, death to pagans" portions. CorruptUser (talk) 04:01, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

He conquers who endures.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 04:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Uh, you know that they let conquered peoples keep their religion, which was pretty much unheard of then. And Muhammad grew up in the Bedouin tribe, where women were held up to a very high status compared to the Byzantine and Abbasid Empires. Only when the blending of Byzantine Christian culture with Muslim traditions did women's rights take a nosedive. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 05:01, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt

Separate welcome template for WP users?
As WP is the big one out there and we are quite emphatically not WP, maybe it would be wise to have a welcome template for people who are or appear to be familiar with said website and how we differ from it? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ideally the fact we aren't WP and the links inside the template should tell them how we differ without needing a new template doing so.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 20:15, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi! I'm a Wikipedia editor (with a different username there) and just registered today, and I think it would be helpful if the welcome template gave a bit more about copyright policy here. Master of Time 21:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Information on our Copyright policy is (or should be) atleast one of the links provided for you in the template. in answer however, we follow Fair Use copyright law and in general if it wouldn't survive on WP, it has little better odds here. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 22:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * All original content at RW is released under a Creative Commons licence unless explicitly stated otherwise, if that's what you're asking. See RationalWiki:Copyrights for details.
 * As for the prosed template, I don't see the point. Everybody with an internet connection is probably a Wikipedia user and everybody who knows the basics of wiki editing probably is or has been a Wikipedia editor.  Giving people special treatment because they happen to mention Wikipedia in their first edit at RW doesn't seem like something we should want to do.  22:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What the mustelid said. Scream!! (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Good idea. At another Wiki where I used to edit a lot, there was actually a a help page specifically for Wikipedians.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 00:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Rationalwiki rules on sock puppetry?
Can someone clarify this? Are you allowed more than one account? Or are there certain circumstances which will allow? I'm asking this because there doesn't appear to be much security regarding this.Krom (talk) 23:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you concerned about a specific risk or just asking questions? 23:03, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I currently have at least four accounts on RW - there's no ruling against it. In passing, I have only used one at a time. Scream!! (talk) 23:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * People change usernames as the whim takes them, that's fine. There is, however, an expectation that you not be a dick with it (fake consensus). We don't have checkuser and probably won't any time soon - David Gerard (talk) 23:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This isn't my only one, but it's the only one I ever use. ArcticVixen (talk) 23:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm actually . Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 06:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think at one stage we had both a user and his sockpuppet elected as moderators. DamoHi 09:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I am actually Krom and The road to something something... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 13:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm you. Fonzie (talk) 19:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Guess who I am. Spartacus (talk) 19:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I, too, am Spartacus. 03:27, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm David Gerard. Blacke (talk) 07:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Sysops alert
There are now 666 sysops in RW. What now? Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 00:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My cake was chocolate. I don't know what the frosting was, but I've tasted it before. The frosting tasted like cinnamon or something? 00:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Carrot cake here. (But I thought this whole wiki would change significantly) Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 00:56, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My cake was meatballs Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bork bork. 09:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Black Forest cake. 24.94.59.147 (talk) 03:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No cake. I'm on a damned diet still. 11:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

THE CAKE IS A LIE  Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * *munch**burp* Now it is :D --Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 13:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You just ate Obama's cake! Thanks, Arisboch! To za Gulags with you! Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 19:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Did you drink Kool-Aid with it? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 14:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Я только пью водку с пирогом, товарищ [I only drink vodka with cake, comrade!!]--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 14:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Drushba! Or how you spell that... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 15:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The transliteration of Russian (this is not mistake, since Russian Cyrillic is different from, say, Ukrainian or Mongolian Cyrillic) into Latin characters is a tricky thing since the first computers made it into Russia .--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 15:26, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Blocking rights
As a holder of blocking rights on conservapedia I demand that you give me blocking rights here so I can get rid of those who keep reverting my productive edits. VargasMilan (talk) 13:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Go fuck yourself. You think, you get any kind of "blocking-rights" by just demanding it? What kinda drugs are you on???--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 13:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice try, but no. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 13:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Asking for blocking rights has set back your ability to get them by atleast 3 months.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 14:02, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Especially calling the sysop-tools "blocking rights" and the previous edit wars hint to a intent to abuse the sysop-tools when given.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 14:04, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why doesn't Conservapedia extend the olive branch by first granting all sysops on RatWik blocking rights on Conservapedia? CorruptUser (talk) 01:24, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Guys, the NFL season has started!
For all the fans of the best type of Football: Whom do you support? Who will win the Super Bowl? How will Peyton Manning disappoint this year? Is the classic playoff fizzle-out ever going to get old? Do Brady's balls still have air? How will Cleveland get up the hopes of their fans only to crush them in despair once more? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 14:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As a PAtriotic member of my states American football cult, I support my team because it means for several hours on saturdays nobody visits my workplace. I'd rather America play rugby, that looks like a real sportsmans game.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 14:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Football invoves using the foot to manipulate the ball. In the US version of the game no one knows how to do this so that, when a kick is required they have to bring on a special player. Hence, whatever the name, it is clearly not football. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 15:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, DMR Although I have to sympathise with your view, you would also delegitimise Rugby football league and union and that's heresy!
 * Although the accepted etymology of the word football, or "foot ball", originated in reference to the action of a foot kicking a ball, this may be a false etymology. An alternative explanation has it that the word originally referred to a variety of games in medieval Europe, which were played on foot.[5] These sports were usually played by peasants, as opposed to the horse-riding sports more often enjoyed by aristocrats. In some cases, the word has been applied to games which involved carrying a ball and specifically banned kicking. For example, the English writer William Hone, writing in 1825 or 1826, quotes the social commentator Sir Frederick Morton Eden, regarding a game — which Hone refers to as "Foot-Ball" — played in the parish of Scone, Perthshire:


 * The game was this: he who at any time got the ball into his hands, run [sic] with it till overtaken by one of the opposite part; and then, if he could shake himself loose from those on the opposite side who seized him, he run on; if not, he threw the ball from him, unless it was wrested from him by the other party, but no person was allowed to kick it. 
 * Scream!! (talk) 15:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It's so good nobody outside America bothers. Now Scream!!, Rugby League does a fairly good job of delegitimising itself with no need for external forces :). Proper Rugby on the other hand is indeed the finest spectacle imaginable and the World Cup is about to start! --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 15:35, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A user with the name Wigan embedded in their name disparages Rugby League - Eddie Waring will be turning in his grave! Having said that, the modern RL game is, indeed, losing its roots and trying to mimic the NFL - all those stupid team names! By the way, to answer the original question, I follow the Jets - well, I would if they would stop beating each other up. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 15:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh my, Eddie Waring :) . I used to quite like Rugby League but it has totally lost its soul.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My reaction to any kind of sports enthusiasm: Meh. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 16:04, 16 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * I only need las Aguilas. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiibaaaaaaaa, Aguilas! Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 16:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Football is the worst spectator sport. Baseball games get called on account of rain.  The only weather that stops a football game is a lightning storm, and you can blame lawyers for that.  Football games have been played in blizzard conditions that make the skills of the players irrelevant and turn the game itself into low comedy.  And you're expected to sit in the drizzle and cheer.  Football is also unwatchable on television with the sound on.  All of the networks mix in a constant background of crowd noise, which turns the audio into a blanket of rising and falling white noise that grinds my teeth and gives me a headache. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:00, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't live in America and I care for American Football. In fact I am de facto season ticket owner of my local team (haven't missed a home game this season and the season is almost to playoffs). And I like the fact that American Football is played come hell or high weather. Some of my fondest memories regarding Football are legendary games in nasty rainfall. It may have partly negated the skill part of the game. But boy was that a fight! If you got to swim through mud to get to the opponent to tackle him! If the passing game becomes pure chance! Only few people that care for Football can ever say they don't enjoy that. And boy was it worth standing in the rain for three hours! (plus, our guys won and it was a rivalry game, so that was kind of a big deal). Of course I also love a pass hanging in the air for what seems like ages only to be caught for the touchdown. Anyway, when it comes to the NFL, I would like Eli to get his third ring. There. I said it. I say he can do it and I'll be damned if I doubt that he will do it. Are the Giants the best team? No. Is that necessary for winning the Super Bowl? No. In short: Go Giants! And Fuck the Cowgirls ;-) (losing against them sucks) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:26, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Shit, Avenger, that was just straight up poetic! Makes me want to go to a football game right now... Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 04:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * Thanks for the compliment ;-) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 12:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Call for regulars who aren't sysopped
Anyone who's editing regularly, isn't insane and needs the mop? Add your name here and the agents of stifling institutional hegemony will bless you with suck as appropriate! - David Gerard (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't need a mop, but I bet I would look good waving it all around... or not. Slurm und Drang (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I edit regularly enough to be considered. AyzmoCheers 21:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I am much too insane. Purple monkey dishwasher.  -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 21:14, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, nope. I only edit on a few pages, and am too insane for this, too. And, Emerald, it's yellow ape tapwater. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 21:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * But...Simpson reference :-D I just don't see what's pleasurable about clean up after cranks dribbling about and some public wine fests (no cheese served) about editors that don't get their way.  -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, nope. I only edit on a few pages, and am too insane for this, too. And, Emerald, it's yellow ape tapwater. Zexcoiler Kingbolt (talk) 21:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)Zexcoiler Kingbolt
 * But...Simpson reference :-D I just don't see what's pleasurable about clean up after cranks dribbling about and some public wine fests (no cheese served) about editors that don't get their way.  -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Do I count? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently, yes you do despite all your recent | juvenile edit-warring. More appropriate would have been knocking you back to non-patrolled.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

How about here? I'm new to this wiki but not to the software (I'm a user at Wikipedia with a different user name), but would like to try out being a sysop. Metamorphosis (talk) 23:03, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to admire your cheek but I think that three minutes is hardly enough on-wiki time served. Sorry. Scream!! (talk) 23:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Depends on if my mantra of "edit rarely, lurk hourly" is a qualification. ArcticVixen (talk) 13:51, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

A book and a radio series that may be of interest to some of you.

 * The CBC ran an fascinating series called "The Myth of the Secular," on the place of religion and secularity in the contemporary world. HERE is a link to a blog post that in turn links to all seven episodes.
 * In Earth's Deep History, The historian of science Martin Rudwick complicates the simple dichotomy of "science v. religion" to show how the development of our knowledge of the age and natural history of the planet, starting with James Ussher, unfolded in an intellectual context strongly shaped by Christianity/the Bible. Really cool stuff. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 02:03, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Christianity has had nearly two thousand years to make life on this planet better. Most of that time some form of Christianity was in absolute or near absolute control of vast swaths of territory. Evidence based medicine has only had about three centuries (being generous) and look what it has done? Infant mortality is now lower in the worst countries thaen it was in the best mere few hundred years ago. Live expectancy in Sierra Leone is now higher thaen it was in the Roman Empire under Augustus. Smallpox have been eradicated. Other diseases that used to be a scourge of humanity are now distant memories - distant enough to let anti-science people think a vaccine is not worth it. And that is only medicine. That is not even getting into trains that are faster thaen any flying carpet or seven headed dragon could ever become. Or robots that are better and more precise thaen any Golem. I like science. And I think religion harms science. Even though for quite some time in Europe monks were the only literate people (apart from many Jews, who were and are a surprisingly literate people) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 12:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fascinating, but completely overlooks and fails to engage with the specific arguments raised by Rudwick. How bout you read the book, and then contribute to the thread on it? Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Religion is only harmful to science when religion goes out of it's way to mess with science. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 13:52, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This sounds very interesting to me, actually. Though regrettably I don't have much time at the moment to check it out. If you want, could you summarize a few of the most noteworthy parts? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 20:58, 17 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

Retreated
Any users here who are admins over at Wikipedia? Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 17:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Boy, this thread couldn't possibly end badly--Tanis (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, but speaking as a Wikipedia administrator I'm going to specifically suggest that you don't post whatever the concern is here, because if you want something to happen on Wikipedia then anything with the slightest hint of off-wiki canvassing will be poison to your cause. Instead, post it to the relevant place on Wikipedia where an admin might be useful (WP:AN, WP:ANI, WP:AN3, WP:FTN, etc) - David Gerard (talk) 19:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Could be he's just asking out of curiosity. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 19:42, 17 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Judging by his wikipedia talk page, probably not. Also, he would benefit from studying the Law of Holes. Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 22:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay. Dandtiks69♪♫ (talk) 22:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Did you know that this site is prophesied by the Bible?
I didn't know that, but Bill Muehlenberg explains it all. This very website is fulfilment of God's promise that people will hate him! Who would have thunk! Blacke (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait the bible prophesied the Internet and did not mention porn? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:41, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Or cats? Bicycle  wheel silverbrain.png 10:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Or catporn? Blacke (talk) 13:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Footnotes on talk pages
Paravant seems to be engaged in their own Jihad crusade to needlessly delete all footnotes on talk pages. Can we please get some semblance of mob agreement on how to deal with that? I thought any talk page owner had some modicum of last reserved right to decide themselves how they want their talk page to look like (e.g. archiving or other things such as hiding certain BS). What do y'all think? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * They are annoying. You press the "Add Section" button and the section goes post the Footnotes, then has to be moved above them. I don't think they should be banned completely, but they should be discouraged. Certainly, only used when they really add value to the discussion, as opposed to just being a gimmick. Blacke (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (EC) Paravant has the right of it. Don't recall any talk page footnotes before about 6 months ago. Scream!! (talk) 22:39, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * appeal to tradition Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Says the person who defends Israel on, presumably(?), the grounds of it being traditionally their homeland. (Didn't mean to get involved in this but that's just too much!)Scream!! (talk) 00:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It is my sad duty to inform you that I am not a Jew, nor to my best knowledge do I have any significant Jewish heritage beyond "statistical noise" in my DNA Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (EC) Who suggested that you are Jewish? Not me! Do you intentionally rub folk the wrong way when they are doing their best to be neutral? Scream!! (talk) 00:21, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nobody said anything about you being a Jew.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 00:19, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I understood the "their" that way. Sorry. And no, the historical connection of Jews to the land between Jordan and Red Sea is not the main reason why I support Israel. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:47, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Footnotes on talk pages should be discouraged from use due to the footnote section having to constantly be moved, and footnotes on talkpages for minor asides should be set back into proper place: IE, not a footnote. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 22:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict; twice even)And what if they are already there? Paravant has made note of themself insofar as they constantly edit in other people's contributions to talk pages to remove ref tags. Which in my not so humble opinion is simply beyond the pale. After all, when I dared to hide a particularly incoherent rant by Mona I was firmly reprimanded, to say the least Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I say someone contributions to a talk page are either untouchable, including their layout (be it italics, bolding or footnotes) or we can do with them as we please. Paravant's stance is not understandable if they on the one hand disallow me from hiding a comment by Mona on my own talk page (even going so far as to lock me out from my own talk page), yet removing footnotes without any rhyme or reason simply because. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not removing the comments in ref, besides one because I was lazy, i'm putting them into 's like they should be. This is not the same situation as you being a massive prick and breaking decorum because you dislike a user. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 22:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't horribly mind footnotes on talkpages, but they should be used sparingly. And the whole keep-the-footnotes-section-at-the-bottom thing in big capital letters is serious baloney. Unlike articles, sections on a talkpage (and all the more so when they're user talkpages) are typically separate only-tangentially-related threads, so putting the footnotes of all threads together at the bottom in a separate top header doesn't even make sense. And as has already been pointed out, it also doesn't mesh with the add-a-new-section function. Just put the .—Ryūlóng (琉竜 ) 03:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously Ryulong, admitting "these things are the first things I got using Google Search" about your sources is not a way to make yourself seem informed. >.> 142.124.55.236 (talk) 03:18, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * I have an opinion. Those links I posted were sources that supported my opinion found in a cursory Google search and aside from Reddit came from something which would be considered a source for this website.—Ryūlóng (琉竜 ) 03:38, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "Social Justice Wiki," the one I removed, would be considered a source for this website only for an article on the SJWiki itself: aside from Wikipedia, I can't think of many cases where we have claims backed up by wikis...." Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 03:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You are ignoring the 4 links I posted to the talk page (which includes the Reddit thread you complained about prior).—Ryūlóng (琉竜 ) 03:43, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't remove any of those, so don't whine to me about that. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 03:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I acquiesced on the SJWiki links.—Ryūlóng (琉竜 ) 03:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, and people would have an easier time taking your opinion seriously if you didn't shoot your own argument for that opinion in the foot so many times. >.> 142.124.55.236 (talk) 03:43, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Oh no. I ruined my argument by pissing someone off and insisting that there's inherent issues with the fandom that the fandom hates that they're ever brought up.—Ryūlóng (琉竜 ) 03:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about 1 person here, Ryu, I'm talking about almost everyone. And no, they're not all bronies. >.> 142.124.55.236 (talk) 03:58, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)

The part that's actually about the coop
Fucking AgingHippie let Avenger out of the bin today after I put him there for edit warring. THEN the genius (AgingHippie) took Avenger to the coop to determine whether he should be binned, and -- GET THIS -- whether he should have sysop back. AH thinks, yes indeedy, Avenger should have sysop back -- so that even sysop-locking a page can't stop his warring. Notwithstanding that Paravant just declined to give Avenger back his mop in light of Avenger's behavior the last month.

This from AgingHippie is the biggest pile of shit I've seen in a long bit -- AgingHippie now recants all the policies he told me to follow only two weeks ago, and says he only told me to bin people for edit warring because, well, because reasons. You really have to go to the coop and read this bullshit to believe it.---Mona- (talk) 03:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * This is the MLP thread, make a new one to piss and moan about AH giving Avenger the mop.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 14:23, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, nope. Read the section header again. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:08, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * AH is a man? CorruptUser (talk) 03:55, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I declined to give Avenger back his Mop because I was still weary of him, that does not preclude other people from doing so. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 04:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but he just edit warred today. What is your view?---Mona- (talk) 04:07, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Plenty of us edit war, that in of itself is not a marker against Sysopship, situationally. I removed his rights on the grounds he did not really understand RW yet and thus didn't deserve to have a mop at the time, his actions proved this. At the current time, besides being horribly wrong about zionism, being faaar to self-assured about how the problem user is never him and his habit of dragging fights into other parts of the wiki, he is much better in this regard than he was beforehand. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 04:19, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, he's gotten more subtle at his attempts to slant articles his way. ;) 142.124.55.236 (talk) 04:25, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * He just edit warred yesterday over nonsense against both me and 142. How is that "getting much better?"---Mona- (talk) 17:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

This is third grade-calibre argumentation going on in here. ArcticVixen (talk) 13:05, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Jakester499's horror forum play (introduction)
this is a serialized forum play based off of the classic horror radio play from horror radio show "Light's Out", more specifically the light's out radio play "The Dark" which was referenced on The Simpsons "Treehouse of Horror V". This forum play stars me as both Constable Jacob "Jake" Stirr out investigating a call from an old house in the woods as well as Rev. Perseus Black, an old high school rival, a Lutheran minister and a critically acclaimed writer whom I am giving a tour of my nightly routine as a constable serving the night shift so he can write a book about the nightly lives of police men. Of course something goes weird happens and that shall be serialized in my next couple of bar posts.

(P.S. If can't do it at the bar I'll do it at my user page)

--Jakester499 (talk) 02:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You remind me of that user who wanted us to all play some game called nomic. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 04:20, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, so I looked it up by the only metric we have for determining a game's popularity. There are 440,000 results for "Strip Nomic". CorruptUser (talk) 04:25, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia down
Wikipedia home page:


 * MediaWiki internal error.
 * Exception caught inside exception handler.
 * Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
 * Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
 * Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.

"Exception caught inside exception handler" reeks of bad code... Carpetsmoker (talk) 15:20, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I saw it on the Wikipedia IRC channel and confirmed it: The Wikipedia is alive and kickin again.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 15:25, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Some stuff about a user
You apparently don't check who you give sysop status to. Krom formerly administrated Metapedia, and apparently was a sysop on another account back here years back as well. He has owned hundreds of socks here and is a lunatic. It just seems strange you promote ex-racialists, white supremacists or religious fundamentalists to adminship here.Cousin (talk) 18:05, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, if he's ex-racialist, then what's the problem :-) Note that we give sysop status to pretty much everyone who's been here a few weeks and is obviously non-insane, so it's not like Krom is somehow special in that way. Carpetsmoker (talk) 18:10, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * We've Sysoped Tk, Ken, and Rob during the height of the CP era of RW, alongside modding our community troll. Your concerns about the character of krom are noted but irrelevent to RW culture. Unless he used Rw to promote his bullshit in a verifiable way, thn it does.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 18:21, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If he wrote racist stuff on this wiki, he shouldn't have been given a mop. If it would have take a bunch of stalking and vetting to get at the guy behind what appear to be good-faith edits, nobody should be given the mop. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 18:22, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait, so we do deny mops for ideological reasons? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:26, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * To a degree, though the people being denied a mop for their ideology ussually also act in a way that we deny the mop for.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 18:29, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't think of an instance where someone who persistently made edits of a racist nature was welcomed with a mop, but I could be wrong. We have probably/unfortunately been more tolerant of sexism than racism, but that's only a gut feeling, not data. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 18:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd bet that's because the racists bring more slurs and less facts than the misogynists. 18:35, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's more that up until Athiesm+ happened, we weren't actively looking for sexism.109.150.1.19 (talk) 18:36, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, given RW's liberal mop-giving culture, I wouldn't be surprised if someone inadvertently mopped one. On a related note, while I wouldn't describe Krom or Reverend Black Percy as intentionally racist, I'd say their insistence on absolutist colourblindism and equating black civil rights activism with black supremacism was/is pretty racially offensive. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 18:42, 26 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * Hey, I got a mention! I guess I'm finally slowly progressing towards a future of potentially being considered by some to be some variety of minor celebrity around the periphery of some of these parts - coolio. Now, going into this particular Saloon Bar thread, I wasn't at all anticipating any relevancy of having to make any additions to this discussion that were to be specifically "about me" in any sense whatsoever - but what the hey, when others land the spotlight on you and toss you the mic like just now, all I suppose you can really do is to courteously breakdance your way through it like it's 1899. Now, first of all - seeing as me and Krom just got mentioned collectively by 142 - just between myself and Krom, I made sure to point out that there was never any "automatic agreement" on anything between myself and him, underscored by me even as I threw him a well-intentioned "general thumbs up" for taking the time to make our collective and just slamming of the very concept of propagating Racialism extra devastating against those saps that would, in all seriousness, still pursue that antiquated mindset. Now, in general, I keep no kind of record of any supposed "total body of edits" made by any editor on this site - Krom included - nor have I specifically endorsed his personal views as given on anything, anywhere, as far as I can tell (the best I could find in terms of me kicking the ball towards Krom is a call from me for people to atleast look at his sources per my general policy that any source provided deserves the full scrutiny of the community). In fact, I personally grew distant from the entire discussion, as Krom appeared to revolve more and more around picking out random, non-neutral stories that at times appeared like nutpicking whataboutism - a tactic I personally find highly dubious in most situations. He, however, did provide me with several "Hear, hear!"'s in regards to my own positions (as put forward by myself) - positions that, broadly and reasonably, appeared to enjoy some manner of general support by many editors here (not that that would ultimately be indicative of anything), perhaps most importantly from quite "opposing camps" (ranging from Mona to Avenger), general points of broad discourse which I - even in their incompleteness - stand by today (in their contextual entirety and not as decontextualized snippets of any kind). Finally, to specifically adress 142; I'd like to say that I fully validate your decision to explicitly not accuse me of being "intentionally racist" (even having agreed specifically with you in that same thread), and while I read your comment above as having been given in a genuinely positive spirit, I'm forced to point out that summarizing my viewpoints as "absolutist colorblindism" (I suspect you meant to write "colorblindness"?) and as "equating black civil rights activism with black supremacism" do not constitute recognisable characterizations of my views. In regards to that, I'm going to point out that - even as what I'd written in the past was never a direct reply to what you just presented here - I already then and there took care to never ultimately disqualify the existence of an overtly present and highly destructive reality of societal racism and clearly pointing out that (and I quote);
 * "...the struggle for equality in society (as very broad as that statement is) is far from over (if ever), nor is the struggle itself a problem, but conversely an absolute necessity if we hope to develop society in a direction that is in line with atleast my own secular humanist ideals, in my opinion a worthy goal and to the benfit of all mankind."
 * So in short, myself and Krom have always stood on fully free-standing foundations, never having been joined at the hip, and any overt "agreement on the issues" on record here consistently emanated from Krom, sent in my direction, and not the other way around. Though I was, and am, never unwilling to praise any dedicated editor, if nothing else than just to make them feel that their efforts weren't invisible and that people cared, as per what I wrote on his talkpage. And besides, on the broader point of racism and my views, I advise you all to read what I wrote here, in an attempt to attenuate the threat of harboring racist thoughts. All the best, Reverend Black Percy (talk) 04:07, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll cordially admit wholly equating your views with those of Krom would do you a disservice. Not that this was my intention with my post; sorry if it might've seemed that way. Though I was under the impression that you did significantly agree with him on the positions referred to. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 06:30, 27 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * No offense taken by me, and on the contrary I'd like to offer you my sincere thanks for taking the time to clarify your intentions on the matter (which I already assumed to be amicable per the principle of good intention). There's no doubt that he agreed with me. The "problem" is that he was far from alone in agreeing with me, and not everyone in that same pool agreed with his opinions. Thus, I don't know that there is any meaningful, inherent correlation between the opinions of Krom and myself. But no doubt, some things he said that echoed my own statements were, as anyone might suspect, perfectly valid positions from where I was standing, and I was glad that he voiced those. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 15:15, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

@OP Oh, and by the way - it'd be nice to see any kind of proof at all for these very serious claims. Never mind that including "satanist and what else" in the very headline of your accusation makes you come off as a complete crank. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 05:30, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I smelled the aroma of grinding axes right away. Also not sure how you can be an ex-British Israelite. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 05:35, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * is a nutty idea that the British people are descendant from the lost tribes, that ever popular group of distant ancestors, and that the british monarchs are descendant from David. --"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 06:20, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do we not have that article, son? Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 06:49, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Did you try looking for it? --Ymir (talk) 21:42, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Add to that that the Merovingian dynasty are descendant from Jesus, who was totally a descendant from David too, and whoa the lack of genetic variance among European royalty was even worse than we thought. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 06:34, 27 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
 * That all sounds rather David Icke. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 06:59, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep - and yet Cousin brings up Krom's alleged ex-adherence - and proven current criticism - of that same movement as a point of apparent grievance he has with the man. This despite Krom being demonstrably critical of that Ickean narrative. Speaking of Icke, the inclusion of "satanist and what else" among the charges is literally about as Icke as an alleged exposé could ever get. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:18, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Krom was Anglo_Pyramidologist (something other editors here already have identified, look around). He created the Dutch Israelism and Nordic Israelism articles at Wikipedia, while writing most the British Israelism article, and seemed to have links to Brit-am, and British-Israel-World Federation orgs. By though late 2011 or early 2012 he had left BI, and then criticized that movement. He showed up here in Aug 2012, and wrote most of the British Israelism article on a sockpuppet "Boglin" and added The Drama of the Lost Disciples. (the same name appears filed also as a sock under Anglo_P at Wikipedia, and he also made an edit on the same BI 'Lost Disciples' book there). Krom seems to have been linked to lots more fringe beliefs and what you call "crankery" after he supposedly left British Israelism, such as the Journal of Cosmology, and this was not too long ago. There a whole log on his sock file at Wikipedia connecting him to alternative evolution (anti-Darwinian) views for a short period after his BI edits. Anglo_P and Dinocris at RW are also the same person. Dinocrisis held fringe views on evolution, including panspermia, and Fred Hoyle. The Christian Schwabe article at RW (by DinoCrisis), was created by the same person at Wikipedia - again Anglo_P (it was though deleted at Wiki, but is still at Wikibin ). Cousin (talk) 09:20, 27 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The mikemikev link to all of this makes me immediately sceptical. But I don't care enough to go digging deeply into any of the claims you make there.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 09:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Which Mikemikev link? Also, for reasons of continuity here, I'd like to just make a public note of the fact that the original headline for this thread was ‎"Former Rationalwiki Krom sysop - ex- racialist, ex-Christian fundamentalist/British Israelite, and Satanist who knows what else" and that the fringe implications of said headline should not be prematurely forgotten. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:18, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I meant the fact that mikemikev and his weird sockiverse was involved in all of these subjects and that made me hugely sceptical of the claims made by Cousin (and the identity of that user).--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 10:28, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I also assume you didn't fail to notice this now-reverted edit, which only serves to confuse things further, since in that edit Krom was claimed to be a race denier and to be trolling Metapedia (as in: someone we like) to then here, in this thread, be oxymoronically presented as a willing Metapedia editor. That was also the only "contribution" (outside of this rather cranky tread) ever provided by the now-blocked Cousin. Obvious troll is obvious. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:36, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Vote to collapse
This thread was started by a sock of that wonderful, delusional, nutty and hilarious racist troll Mikemikev. Honestly, I vote you guys collapse this thread and relegate it to the garbage pale where it belongs. Gooniepunk (talk) 10:21, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yup. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 10:29, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Collapse it like the Reptilians collapsed WTC 7. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:36, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Anything from Mikemikev should be collapsed into a singularity in order to remove it from the universe itself. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 15:10, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * But what if the universe doesn't want it either? You mean to tell me the tamales were spiked?!  Say hi! Look here! 15:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)