Debate:Dissecting Black separatism

Proposition
I am hoping that this can get its own RW article one day, I want thoughts and discussion(from the black contributors here on RW in particular) on dissecting what is black separatism as well as the different categories it can fall under ranging from the good (such as dissension from a racist criminal justice system and wanting to establish your own judicial system in the U.S as well as having black economic empowerment and taking ethnic pride in establishing your own communities) to the bad in which is seperatism is born out of racial hate and bigotry and having contempt for other groups of people and is essentially a mirror image of white separatism that many white nationalists groups  espouse. Groups such as Nation of Islam engages in the bad kind of separatism but have a sense of legitimacy among black people due to their status as one of the wealthiest religious organizations in the black community as well as constantly trying to “uplift” the black community by constantly advocating economic ownership, self reliance, and most importantly Independence from a society that has historically oppressed and marginalized black people. The Black Panther Party despite its controversy and reception did its best to practice the “good” kind of separatism and its legacy can still be seen today in groups such as Black Lives Matter. I feel this needs to be address as distinguishing between the two can be difficult and sometimes divisive in the black community.SensaurC-137 (talk) 01:46, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * IMO, “Black separatism” is just another way of saying “segregation”. And, if something is bad when white people do it, it’s also bad when black people do it, or any other race, or religion. Sievert 81 (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well i would agree with you there but I feel that your definition of black separatism as a stand-in for segregation is a little oversimplified. I also put the “seperatism” in quotes because its not so much segregation as it is just wanting to empower your own community in an American society that has historically oppressed and marginalized (and continues to do so) your community. Note this advocacy for empowerment is one of the reason groups such as the Nation of Islam have some legitimacy among black people despite their racist ideology and why the original Black Panther Party was so influential in the black community. Also, Keep in mind the reason institutions like HBCUS were created in the first place was due to white american society unwillingness to accept black people into their schools. HBCUS are still incredibly popular among young black people and have only increased popularity due to events such as the killing of George Floyd.SensaurC-137 (talk) 18:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Why is it socially acceptable for a black person to say they don’t want to interact with white people, but if the roles were reversed, the person would be called a racist? Two wrongs don’t make a right, and black people willingly segregating themselves because of a murder by police makes no sense. The white race didn’t kill Floyd, a few racist cops did. It just sounds like a way to legitimize racism against white people. Sievert 81 (talk) 21:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand, I’ll assume you’re a white person and its kinda my passion here to educate my fellow white contemporaries on race relations and the perspective that African-Americans go through. Firstly, when you say it is socially acceptable for blacks not wanting to interact with whites is a little misleading because many Black people often do not have representation or empowerment(outside of a few exceptions of tokenism) in a system that is still very institutionally racist. Secondly, you are right a few racist cops did kill George Floyd but it is only a microcosm of an institutionally racist system that has historically MARGINALIZED and CONTINUES to opress black people today and when that happens naturally there is dissension just like if you were to live in a plave where you do not truly feel welcomed or that you’re life didn’t matter (i.e what Black Lives Matter truly stands for) Lastly, I am so glad you mentioned what it would be like if thing were reversed. I have two videos here for you to watch that will hopefully give you a little more perspective. Please try to watch them in there entirety https://youtu.be/MhHpuj0rJho https://youtu.be/r-g2NrIKIi4 please keep in mind that majority of black people do not demonize white people but many white people are the benefactors of a racist system without NECESSARILY being racist themselves and wanting to seperate from that is the “good” kind of “seperatism” that I am trying to relay.SensaurC-137 (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * As an autistic asexual, a lot of people think my life doesn’t matter. I’ve been there. Just last Monday, I was attacked and called a r-tard, a cracker, and other nasty stuff by a white girl. Yes, I am a white male. I support the message of BLM, not the actions of BLM. I seriously question the intentions of an organization with people such as as a big part of it, a far-left domestic terrorist who was involved in the bombing of the Senate, and caught with tons of guns and bombs and only avoided life in prison due to a bullshit pardon. Systemic racism is not because of white people. You benefit from Uighur forced labor and genocide, unless you’ve never bought anything made in China before. Does that mean you support it? No. Just like I don’t support systemic racism. The vast majority of white people aren't racist. Just because there are racist while people doesn’t mean all of us are. Are all Muslims evil because of ISIS? Of course not! But that’s the same argument. Hitler was part Jewish, does that make all Jews genocidal maniacs? No way! If you did think either of those examples were true, you would be a racist. So why is it not the same for attacks on the whole white race? Again, just because someone indirectly benefits from something doesn’t mean they support it. Otherwise, 99% of us would support the Uighur genocide, as stated above. There were lots of unjust killings by police where the victims were white, but no one talks about that. The sentencing gap between men and women is 6 times bigger than the race gap, but you’re an incel if you talk about that. There is clearly an agenda here, and it’s not looking good. Sievert 81 (talk) 22:39, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Assuming your not trying to troll, you clearly missed the entire point. As I mentioned before the majority of black people DO NOT demonize white people. Secondly, you probably wanna fact check that story about Susan Rosenburg being the apart of BLM https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-black-lives-matter-leader-bomb-us-capitol-1983-1568372 . Thirdly, your usage of whataboutism in regards to stuff like Uighar genocide or white on white police killings in this discussion is just sad. You clearly do not understand, and as a white male you being called a r-tard, cracker by ONE white girl does not give you any perspective of what it is like to LIVE in a systematically racist system because stuff like being asexual or autistic cannot be cued visually and you are simply trying to make this about yourself Again please watch the videos and put yourself in someone elses shoes SensaurC-137 (talk) 00:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I’m not trolling. It’s not “whataboutism” to bring up the Uighur genocide. I was trying to respond to this: “...but many white people are the benefactors of a racist system without NECESSARILY being racist themselves...”, and was pointing out how just because someone technically benefits from something without their knowledge, it doesn’t make them supporters of it. Just like using Chinese products doesn’t mean me or you support the genocide of Muslims. Your own link says that Susan was part of an organization doing fundraising for the main BLM organization. The entirety of the BLM movement is not 1 organization, it’s a collection of organizations and people with radically different views. She is one of the people raising funds for the main organization called Black Lives Matter. I’m bringing up White on white police killings to show that they have gone under the radar while justified police shootings of black people (Jacob Blake mostly) have shut down the NFL. And yes, the shooting of Blake was 100% justified. He had a knife, attacked officers, and tried to do something to the kid in the car. He told his lawyers he had a knife. The person who initially called the cops was the same person he sexually assaulted. If this was a white person, practically nobody would have known. Also, I’m not privileged! I was physically abused by my mom’s boyfriend for 2 years, sexually abused by my female aides on several occasions, beat up and property destroyed by the headmaster (who was later fired for sexual harassment of children) and could barely make it through school due to my disabilities. I’m now medicated to the point where i’m more or less normal, but still have issues with my disability. Just because i’m white doesn’t mean i’m privileged. That’s racism to assume i’m privileged because I’m white in the same way it’s anti semitism to assume a Jew is rich because they are Jewish. I’ve been abused by others due to my autism, which is a protected class just like race, in late 2019 at a large teen meetup a girl pretended to ask me out. I only figured it out because I saw her with another man and there was a camera sticking out from a door, and kids were giggling around me. She later flashed 50 people to get attention. I already told you about Monday. I am a minority, just because i’m white doesn’t mean i’m perfect. Sievert 81 (talk) 00:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! -- Goatspeed. 01:21, 21 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Disclaimer, I'm not voicing support for black separatism, I neither condone nor endorse it, blah blah blah. So Black Separatism makes sense when viewed in contrast to White socio-cultural hegemony. said hegemony more less tells black people to either play the rigged game or fuck off. (I'm paraphrasing and oversimplifying a bit.) When viewed from that angle, it's not surprising that some black people are sorely tempted to take their ball and leave the table.  00:34, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * If a black person goes out of their way to avoid white people because they assume they will be racist, that’s racism. If they create areas where white people are not allowed in, in the US, that’s a crime and whoever does it could be sued for discrimination. Sievert 81 (talk) 00:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I see that someone didn't read the disclaimer I put up specifically anticipating this sort of response from them... 01:04, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don’t understand why they would want to undo all the work of civil rights activists and restart segregation because they don’t like white people though... regardless of legality... Sievert 81 (talk) 01:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, step one to understanding is to take all those assumptions of yours and put them off to the side. Once you've done that, understand that this country has racism baked into its bones. The overarching socioeconomic system is racist on a passive level most felt by marginalized groups, in this case black people. Now, because this shit has been going on for literally hundreds of years, some people might get with what little progress they've seen made being undercut, worked around, defanged, or outright rolled back. Hence they throw up their metaphorical hands and say "fuck this rigged game".  01:20, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * But no one is saying they can’t leave the country or move to a majority black area in the country. The issue is they think they speak for the entire black race and they can break the law and be racist to white people to “own the racists”. Sievert 81 (talk) 07:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Basically, in their view A), they are civial rights groups and B) they think movements like BLM are too weak and too slow to get the job done. 01:25, 21 February 2021 (UTC)


 * While yes, some parts of my country *cough cough the South* are still trying very desperately to find loopholes in every new legislation/legal victory (indeed, in Georgia, one of the few things their Republican Party can agree on at this point is that they need to try to use tRump's conspiracy theories about election fraud as a false-flag operation to try and undo future Governor Stacey Abrams' legal victories against systemic racism that enabled Biden to carry its 16 electoral votes and both its Senate seats to be lost to a black man and a Jew), the idea that it's all being rolled back is simply ridiculous. The US has beyond reasonable doubt improved since the turn of the twentieth century, when white and black people couldn't even sit on the same parts of a fucking bus or go to the same parts of a beach in fucking Chicago of all places without violence and police brutality occurring. But yes, there is still lots of work that needs to be done, but more segregation, regardless of whether this separatism thing is legitimately "separate but equal" just isn't the solution- not because it would, as some have tried to suggest, "encourage anti-white racism", but because even actually-fair segregation could also hurt black people by perpetuating the "us versus them" mentality. (Not to mention the precendent it could set now that with the US becoming more and more diverse, "white" and "black" are now no longer the only two races that are relevant in US politics. I say this as an Indian-American who would not appreciate, say, being told that I cannot befriend or marry outside my own race because "it's for my own good to protect me from racism", especially given that my home state of Washington is a pretty white one- and therefore life would be pretty damn lonely for me.) -- Goatspeed. 01:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you ComradeGC and to expand on that “take the ball and go home point” some in the black community have taken that approach and end up associating with groups such as the Nation of Islam or the New Black Panther Party or any other black supremacy/seperatist group which as I stated before just espouse the mirror image of white separatism that many white nationalist groups espouse. I felt like this needed to be dicussed in order to make the distinction more defined and clear. I do not personally advocate for any kind of “black separatism” either but i do understand the feeling of jadedness that some in the black community have towards a racist system and wanting to dissent from it.SensaurC-137 (talk) 04:42, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I understand WHY they want to, it doesn’t work in practice and just makes all black people look racist. Sievert 81 (talk) 07:40, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Because that is only a select few on the extreme end of the spectrum. Also, you cant lump in a group like Black Lives Matter who’s goal is to end police brutality with groups like the Nation of Islam or another Black supremacy group.They aren’t the same thing and do not even affiliate with one another.SensaurC-137 (talk) 14:19, 21 February 2021 (UTC)