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:I suffer from pretty bad depression myself, and I often feel unmotivated and aimless. But keeping with the spirit of your post, I’ll just tell you to get the fuck over it and suck it up. Hardly anybody else feels a special meaning in life. You’re not any better than the rest of us to need one. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 
:I suffer from pretty bad depression myself, and I often feel unmotivated and aimless. But keeping with the spirit of your post, I’ll just tell you to get the fuck over it and suck it up. Hardly anybody else feels a special meaning in life. You’re not any better than the rest of us to need one. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 22:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 +
::Actually, I'll come back to this because I don't think I've expressed how tired I am of these narcissistic bullshit posts. I don't like to talk about it, but I've dealt with suicidal urges for much of my life, and I even got really close to following through with an intentional overdose. You know what I did? I got help. I certainly didn't act like a fucking bitch when people told me I had a problem or advised me to seek help. I'm still having to fight through it.
 +
::You don't think your life has meaning? Fine. Do something about it and find a meaning for yourself. Find an activity you like, or volunteer somewhere, or join the military. Or you can do nothing but sit around. I won't look down on you for the second option, but if that's what you do, at least don't go around pissing and moaning about hard your life is because you refuse to get off your ass find your own damn meaning. A cosmic force ain't gonna hand you a meaningful life on a platter, and certainly no other person will. You live for yourself or you don't.
 +
::But I certainly don't appreciate you trivializing mental illness, and I also roll my eyes at the fact that you expect any kind of thoughtful or sympathetic response from me after you saying that you don't give a shit about anything. So you can get help or don't. If you don't, that's fine. But in that case, don't make it other people's problem. {{User:DuceMoosolini/sig}} 01:14, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:14, 25 June 2021

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Pointless poll

What is the dumbest thing someone has said about the moon?

It can affect our personality12Vote
We never been on the moon42Vote
It's not real7Vote
It's flat4Vote
It's made of goat cheese4Vote
There is a secret Chinese COVID creation factory on the dark side of the moon9Vote

What is the dumbest COVID-19 Denialist argument?

99% Survival Rate14Vote
Scamdemic/Plandemic13Vote
Fake News2Vote
Chinese Bioweapon (at least it can work in the real world)2Vote
It is 5G Cell Towers32Vote
It is a depopulation plot3Vote
It is the flu rebranded as COVID2Vote

How should the US have handled Afghanistan?

Stay forever3Vote
Stayed until it's the next President's problem1Vote
Left after killing bin Laden (in another country)19Vote
Left in early 2002, after Taliban was toppled 9Vote
Never gone in; extensive bombing campaign3Vote
Never gone in; ignored it entirely57Vote
Let's just enjoy some goat kebabs6Vote
To do list


Arming teachers College hw assignment

Hey my fellow rationalwikians. I came across this topic as it is my online assignment that is due at 5pm est and could use some help as I type my response in my discussion post. Its dicussing the tired old topic of whether arming (a select few) teachers would be an “effective detterent” against potential school shootings. Here’s the video offered for more context [1]. SensaurC-137 (talk) 14:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Answers...
  1. The students can't view the teacher as the person whose job it is to execute them if they get out of line. Otherwise the teacher is no longer the helper, but the enemy.
  2. Teachers aren't soldiers. Yes, some were, but "firearms proficiency" isn't something you acquire in that line of work.
  3. Access to guns means mistakes will happen. A teacher will make a mistake and a gun will be left out in the classroom, or the gun drawer will be unlocked. The safety might be turned off and the gun may accidentally discharge, and so forth.
  4. Teachers freak out all the time. The last thing a person having a freak out needs is access to a deadly weapon.
  5. This would further normalize guns as a solution to everything.
  6. If the only goal is to deter school shooters, you are better off letting people think the teachers have guns than actually having the guns. But it still causes the problems associated with people thinking the teachers are armed. Sort of like with Saddam Hussein, who found it to be easier to pretend to have large amounts of chemical weapons than to actually have them.
  7. School shooters, and mass murderers in general, are caused by 4 things. Early childhood trauma, crisis point, inspiration, and access to the means. You'd be better off expanding Child Protective Services and changing the media to not "glorify" mass murders.
  8. Speaking of, schools are targeted because the shooter wants to "live forever" by doing something that people will remember. If we changed how we cover mass shootings, e.g., not showing the perpetrator's face on TV, not spending hours talking about the shooter, instead focus on the victims and heroes and whatnot, we would see fewer shooters. The media has known this for a really long time, and honestly, half the reason they've been so slow to change it is because the individual stations that change their ways would see lower ratings for a bit, and as an industry, stopping school shootings would reduce "interesting" news stories and the whole industry would suffer. CorUser (brawl) 15:15, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I think having a bunch of panicky civilians firing guns during a situation like that would be much likelier to increase the death toll than anything else. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 17:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)


totally agree.Not to mention the total waste of tax dollars and federal school funding it would take to train teachers that would be better spent on actually improving the school educationSensaurC-137 (talk) 15:44, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Everywhere but schools, it’s obvious and non-controversial that the primary way to defend against attackers with guns is to have friendly people armed with guns already on the scene in case they are needed. Banks, politicians, office buildings, etc. have armed guards because they have been judged to be an effective response to potential threats. When I tutored at an “urban” grade school, the doors were locked, with monitored access, the entrances had metal detectors, and there was an on-duty police officer to deal with trouble that may arise. Do you imagine that “arming teachers” would involve tossing a Glock 19 at everyone on staff and telling them to look out for trouble? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 12:19, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I would imagine that arming teachers would involve arming teachers, whereas what you describe is having armed guards. Arming a select few teachers would be akin to arming a select few bank tellers, a select few politicians, or a select few office workers. I think arming teachers is a bad solution, and I think doing these other things in these other contexts would also be a bad idea, a much worse idea than having guards. It is also worth considering the difference in context. A bank has good reason to be concerned about, say, an armed robbery, which might pose significantly different challenges than, say, a student-turned-suicidal-mass-shooter. In the former case, at least, the point is to steal money; in the latter case, the killing is the point. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 12:34, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I notice everyone except 192․168․1․42 is ignoring the fact that most teachers aren't trained in killing people. Make of that what you will... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:48, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I notice that you ignored point 2 of my list... CorUser (brawl) 12:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Dude, you ignored what I said too. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 12:58, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
For youngsters too young to remember early 2000s memes, let us not forget the lessons of Lee Paige, the "only one in the room professional enough" to shoot himself in the foot in a classroom (while purportedly demonstrating gun safety). Shaking hands with danger, indeed. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 13:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I derped and misread the posts. I blame the lack of coffee. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I was trying to direct the conversation towards the actual issues and solutions, and going point by point through tangential comments is usually a distraction from that. But if you insist:

So with that out of the way, is anyone interested in a discussion about these issues and what should be done? 192․168․1․42 (talk) 02:15, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

You know, school shootings happen on occasion, and on many occasions, they happen with an armed guard present who couldn't stop him. In fact, there's one study out there that says that armed guards actually increase the violence of the event. Active shooters are not in a normal state of mind, and just like you shouldn't feed trolls, you also shouldn't feed assholes who want to go out in a blaze of glory. Officers that arrive will be better prepared for this sort of event -- this is the sort of shit that all that tactical gear, pepper spray, tasers, and SWAT stuff actually might be helpful with. Police officers responding to this sort of thing will usually carry more than just a firearm, you know. Want to outfit teachers with Kevlar helmets too?
School shootings are high publicity, rare events. Firearm events do sometimes occur on schools today, but most of them don't involve a mass shooting. A fair bit of them are accidental events. A fair bit of them actually are suicides. A teacher who is improperly trained and improperly stores their weapons probably will increase the risk of both in everyday life. So unless one can demonstrate it can actually be helpful overall, why bother? The NRA's desire to increase gun sales doesn't count. Now, I'm fine with proper marksmanship training, mind you. But even the JROTC uses air guns these days, if I recall. (You don't get to handle the real weapons until college.)
The worst thing about US weapons culture is just how dumb, immature, and macho is. Buy a rifle and all your problems are solved, and then you buy some more. What, you're gonna buy a piano next and think you can instantly be able to play Rach 2? I've seen the link to higher suicides and accidental deaths that simply having a gun around the house entails, and hopefully you aren't buying your firearm for dumb anger issues either. Proper firearms skills aren't even *that* hard to acquire, but it's pretty clear that a buttload of American firearm enthusiasts don't have even that. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 03:12, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
No one is also going into how students would feel if their teacher is armed. It would certainly promote a far more hostile environment and would increase tension for students I feel. If I were an elementary school kid and knew my teacher was armed, that'll add a lot of stress just knowing that weapon is in there somewhere. Also that "well students could use other deadly weapons" is easily countered by that they're nowhere near as deadly as guns and a knife in a backpack won't trigger a lockdown nor would it risk being accidentally set off and also trigger a lockdown, and lockdowns have negative psychological effects on children. ". One possible response is to acknowledge that guns are by far the most useful defense that law-abiding citizens can have against violent attackers who may use various mundane objects as weapons, and that regulations should be formulated with that in mind." that's just typical pro-gun talking points. Guns are not the "most useful defense" (there are multiple accounts of them being discharged for threatening situations like freeway merging, snow shoveling, seeing someone talking on a phone in a theater, and someone playing music at a gas station) and law-abiding citizens are law-abiding until they're not. People vastly overestimate their ability to restrain using a gun as well. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 03:22, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
It would seem that no one is interested in discussing how to deal with the problem, either long-term to reduce its incidence or a means to deal with when it happens. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 09:49, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I would think you are limited to 5 options:
1) Eliminate the ability to acquire weapons (remove 2nd amendment and slowly attrition the number of weapons in the country over a century or two.) Likely to reduce number of incidents with firearms but increase number of incidents with knives.
2) Increase access to Healthcare and gatekeep acquiring weapons behind a psychological evaluation. Would require overturning our current medical system and wouldn't be at full effectiveness without making going to mental health care mandatory.
3) Prevent weapons from entering the premises. Have airport style screening at the entrance to every school. Would make sneaking a weapon into the school (including knives) much more difficult, but would also dramatically increase costs at the school to maintain and purchase equipment. Also wouldn't be as effective without...
4) Increase number of armed guards on premises. At regular locations throughout the school have booths with an armed security guard inside (booths because otherwise a killer could just grab a weapon off the guard). Would also increase costs and possibly intimidate students who are now surrounded by armed dudes. Police already have an awful reputation in this country for shooting first and never asking questions.
5) Arm teachers. This to me is the worst option because, while it is theoretically less expensive, it also distances the teacher from the students as no longer just a mentor and occasional disciplinary, but also an executioner. It also dilutes the duties of a teacher into mixing with that of a police officer. Officers have months of training to not just shoot some dude, but also to identify whether lethal force is necessary, how to calm a situation, identify unarmed civilians. (The United States already trains its police officers less than most other nations, but I digress.) These teachers would have to spend time doing repeated drills and active shooter scenarios. As someone who works at a secure facility that has a continual threat of active shooters, I can tell you that those drills are a *daily* affair, and they last hours. To arm teachers and do it right would require adding around two hours a day to their schedule. Will they have time for that? Will this make them suffer in their teaching duties in a country whose education is already suffering? My biggest problem though comes from the conflict of the design space. In order to be an effective teacher-guard, you can't just be a good teacher. A guard is not simply some random individual with a gun. They critically need to have three traits. Having a "fight" response when the going gets tough, being trained and well drilled in use of weapons in tactics, and have either the determination or coldness of heart to kill someone who is a threat. Imagine a Venn Diagram. One circle is the group of people who make good teachers, another is the group of people who make good guards. In order to have good teacher-guards, a teacher has to be good at both teaching, and guarding. In other words, you have to fire teachers based on an inability to be a good guard, even if they are an amazing teacher, because otherwise you will have crap guards. The population of people who make good teachers is already slim, and in order for this plan to work, you have to reduce it further. You need teachers that when threatened, will point a gun at a child and kill them. Anything less won't stop a mass shooter. Are you willing to compromise on teaching quality in order to make sure your teachers efficient killers?
Note: None of these options are mutually exclusive and you can do any combination of them. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Japan already arms their teachers. They occasionally see some use. But this is Japan, which 1) has a much, much lower rate of crime and violence*, and 2) isn't sofa king we todd edd as to arm the teachers with guns.
  • Japanese statistics are... dubious. The police are under immense pressure to solve all the major crimes, so when the crime isn't easily solved it didn't happen. Thus, virtually no murders but a lot of "suicides". But ignoring the "suicide" rate, property crimes are much lower, so we can assume that violence is less of an issue there. CorUser (brawl) 15:48, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Is empathy just lying to yourself?

Because you aren’t the other person, you don’t really feel their pain or understand it. It’s based on your personal history. If you never have been without then it’s hard to have empathy for the poor because you don’t know what it’s like to go hungry for days. Even if terms of death everyone is different so saying you feel someone’s pain is a lie. Reminds me of a phrase how we are all fundamentally alone in our struggles, other people can wave on the beach and throw a life like but they aren’t swimming with us in the midst of the storm (or something along those lines).Machina (talk) 01:15, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, the fact that empathy does not involve past experience of a kind is already implicit in the distinction between empathy and sympathy. Second, that the particular details of various forms of pain are different for different people does not indicate that there is no element of shared experience or understanding. Your particular loss of a loved one and my experiences of losing loved ones will have distinctive features, but that does not mean that they have nothing in common. Furthermore, if I, say, witness somebody burn themselves, I might not experience the same physical sensation, but that does not mean that I cannot, in some sense, appreciate and understand their pain, even if I have never been burned before. Empathy is a sort of feeling or attitude, not a proposition; it cannot be true or false. Since lying is generally taken to have some aspect of falsehood, it is difficult to see what you mean by saying that empathy is lying to yourself. Lying to yourself about what? The way you feel? Perhaps you think that people are lying to themselves because you think that they believe they feel exactly the same as those they empathize with? In that case, let me assure you that nobody, when they say "I feel your pain" to somebody who has just lost a loved one, having not recently lost anybody themselves, means "I feel exactly the same emotions that you feel, in equal intensity". 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 01:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
It depends on whether you’re running updated drivers enabling “Theory of Mind.” If you are, then you’re likely capable of “empathy” for another person, a projection and abstraction from your own experience in similar states as you understand it and which if you’re being honest could be flawed (it’s always an orphaned project or WIP, never done, like balancing a set of MMO classes). It’s usually disabled if you figure everyone is thinking like you, and this is unfortunately the factory default of most humans (the manufacturer really didn’t want us playing with this setting, ToM uses a lot of memory and processing power if it’s turned on and this often led to us getting eaten/distracted by things other than food, procreation, and sleep, so we have to make do with user-defined exceptions [Buddhism has some useful built-in tools for managing this, but it rightly has its detractors and is pretty old]).
A high degree of correlation in experience between the two parties enables empathy’s badass grandma, “sympathy.” The only truly objective version of this state was achieved by Kevin Warwick of the University of Reading with assistance from [his lovely wife: header not found], but deferred memory shared between elder couples has suggested when one of the two is rendered inoperable before the other that it’s a pervasive operating state among humans, likely primates, possibly eukaryotes if "My Octopus Teacher" is to be believed [citation needed] (try not to be moved when you see it playing with fish then rush and cuddle its projected/likely "friend," the camera man and documentarian recording its brief existence like a Tolkien elf).
There are human units in the population who lack Theory of Mind, and they’re basically power gamers: their achievements are unrivaled and they're fiercely competitive. They’re often mistaken and correlated with units with corrupted/outdated drivers, and while there may be a degree of overlap between the two [citation needed], their respective communities have a high degree of independence if not outright disdain for each other (one is frequently concerned with debugging and troubleshooting, the other seeks exploits). Artificius (talk) 06:15, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


@Machina In psychology empathy describes two similar yet distinct things. Emotional empathy, which is what most people think of when they hear the word. This helps humans form emotional connections with each other. There's also cognitive empathy, which let's someone understand things from another person's perspective. Cognitive empathy doesn't necessarily require emotional empathy, merely an understanding of another's perspective. Both of these functions are part of the psychological bedrock of human society. So to answer your question in short, no, empathy isn't just lying to yourself. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:08, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

That still sounds like lying though since you are making assumptions about their perspective. You don't really know you are guessing. I've lost loved ones before but I don't understand how people cry about it. Death is inevitable. Same with people breaking up, I've broken up before and just moved on so I don't understand how people get so messed up. Same how people can get so enraptured by their "love" they commit some heinous stuff. It would be stupid and arrogant to presume any sort of empathy because I don't understand their feelings or position, because I'm not them and wouldn't behave as such. So yes, empathy is lying to yourself. A useful lie but still a lie.Machina (talk) 04:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
if you are trying for stoic acceptance or a stiff upper lip, you've not quite pulled it off coming across emotionally stunted instead. its you who does not understand why people cry over death. its you who does not understand why the end of a romance can cause people pain. its you who does not understand the feelings of others or positions. you openly admit this. but somehow, despite this stated lack of understanding, you declare that we lie to ourselves if we say we can empathise. empathy is a lie but you are able to know we are lying to ourselves. no. you say empathy is a lie because you yourself are unable (or unwillingly) to empathise. but is only a lie for you. you cannot declare no one else is capable of empathy because you, as you have already stated, do not understand the feelings and emotions of others and do not try to. how can you presume to know what others can understand based only on your own inability to understand?
empathy is not unerring. it is not a certainty of knowing exactly how someone feels about something, it does not require that we must feel as they do. it is not presuming to know how someone else is feeling or insisting someone feels a particular thing. it is a willingness to understand what drives other people via a shared sense of humanity. it requires us to engage with one another. to listen and learn. it can fail us when we stop seeing our foes as people enabling all kinds of cruelty to be inflicted, and it can fail us just by being so disconnected from anothers reality that we cannot relate easily.
seems that finding ways to not engage with people and dismissing their views and experiences as lies and delusion to justify not doing so does not give someone much capacity to empathise. AMassiveGay (talk) 13:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
(EC) Frankly, it sort of just sounds like you don't have empathy. Your argument appears to be something like this:
P1: Empathy involves an understanding of another's perspective.
P2: I cannot understand another's perspective.
C1: Therefore, empathy is a lie to oneself.
However, a better conclusion would be "C1*: I do not have empathy." Note, first, that because you are drawing only on your own experience, your conclusion is not generalizable to other people. Second, that one is able to have empathy does not imply that one is able to have empathy for all people in all situations. It is possible, for instance, for somebody to feel empathy toward a person who has lost a loved one, but feel no empathy toward somebody who commits murder in response to a breakup. If they told themselves, in the latter case, that they did feel empathy toward the murderer, then they would be lying to themselves. That one has not felt empathy in some cases is not a proof against empathy even for that person; though I think most could understand why people cry at the loss of a loved one.
"You are making assumptions about their perspective. You don't really know you are guessing". I'm assuming the latter is meant to be "You don't really know: you are guessing". Suppose that it is true that I am making assumptions about their perspective, and that this is a necessary component of empathy. So what? Does it follow that, because I am making assumptions, my conclusions must be unreasonable? In pretty much any context, some assumptions are reasonable, while others are ridiculous. Losing a loved one tends to involve grief and grieving, and so it is reasonable to think that somebody who has lost a loved one will be grieving. It would not be reasonable to assume that they are excited, elated, joyous, etc. Furthermore, one does not need to have lost a loved one oneself in order to know this. However, it is questionable how much one really needs to assume. If I see somebody who has lost a loved one, and they are crying, shall we say: "you cannot say that they are sad, that is merely an assumption and therefore unjustified"? People express their perspectives. Additionally, it is not clear that even those assumptions that we might need to make are assumptions in the ordinary sense. Empathy, as a feeling or attitude, does not seem to require any conscious or intellectual reflection. Rather, it is an automatic response. Often, one does not even need to know that somebody has lost a loved one to perceive that they are grieving, and one can feel empathy for them even without knowing such details. Young children can feel such empathy, and express it, though they have almost no life experience.
That empathy refers to something can be seen if we consider possible rejections of empathy. We can imagine somebody who feels that their experience is so singular, that to feel empathy for them is impossible; only sympathy, involving a kind of shared experience, is possible. Suppose that my friend has just been turned down for a date by Alice, whom he had a crush on, and I have said to him, say, "I know the feeling". Consider two possible responses:
R1: Do you? Have you ever been turned down by your crush?
R2: Do you? Have you ever been turned down by Alice?
R2 points out an obvious distinction between my experiences and my friend's, but it nonetheless seems like a lousy complaint, because it points to a feature that is not salient to empathy or sympathy. It is not important to either of these that I have at any point held any view about Alice. Supposing that I have never had a crush on anybody, it would seem reasonable to think that I could not extend sympathy, and so R1 would be a plausible rejection of my empathy if my friend feels that only sympathy is possible in his case. R2, however, points to something insignificant; it implicitly presents a reason to reject my empathy, but the reason is a bad one. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 14:05, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
It also sounds like a misuse of the term "lie". To lie is to intentionally deceive. When you do that unintentionally, it's called a mistake. As to how you infer what someone's thinking or where they're coming from, generally this involves comparing what they've experienced with memories, expressions, tone, inflection, personal history and other comparative experiences. Cognitive empathy specifically also requires a good deal of formal logic. I really don't know how to explain it better. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:23, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I always thought that empathy was tied in to mirror neurons but maybe that's to mechanistic.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:20, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

The dictionary definition says it’s to understand and share the feelings of another, so even by that definition you’re still lying to yourself about understanding how they feel and sharing that feeling. Empathy also backfires as well when you let it cloud your judgment, and it can often be the root of vengeance as well. It’s not useful for seeing people as people, for that you need to be rid of it. Only though that do you see there are no enemies or allies, just people. I never said people weren’t capable of it just that it’s a lie we tell ourselves. I can’t say I understand their pain or share it but comfort is given all the same. Empathy would just get in the way of that. I don’t need to lie to myself to care what happens to them.Machina (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

So, here's your problem machina: Some folks are uncertain of their own minds; they fail to understand that they understand as well as is humanly possible. Understand? Not understanding is not the problem you have taken it for.Ariel31459 (talk) 17:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

SC and Arizona death row

In Arizona and South Carolina, they're instating gas chambers as execution methods. It's absolutely horrific and disgusting. In SC, the method is completely untested, and in AZ, they're planning to use actual Zyklon B. None of this is right, despite claims that it's "more humane" than firing squad. You know what's more humane? Not killing people. This shouldn't even be allowed to happen. Jake Holmesyell at me 23:26, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is it being "untested in SC" an issue? Would the system perform differently there than somewhere else? Personally I'm not against the death penalty per se - but I think it needs a much better justice system and a "no doubt at all" burden of proof under such a better system (as opposed to beyond all reasonable doubt). Zyklon B - so what? So it got used by those who shall not be mentioned to kill millions of those who shall not be forgotten - that's not particularly important in context IMO. I get that you don't want the death penalty but that the nazi's used it is irrelevant as to whether it is useful as a killer. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 03:37, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
AZ was using HCN gas (the active ingredient in Zyklon B) as recently as 1999. The comparison is perhaps a useful rhetorical point, but would it be better if they wanted to use some other gas? Well, perhaps it would be more humane (simple asphyxiants can kill you before you even realize you are dying; I'm not sure about HCN), but that would not seem to interest you anyway. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 12:46, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
The problem is that the some governments has decided that executing their own citizens under some circumstances it a good idea. Arguing about the best way of doing this kinda misses the point.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:59, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
You think that is a problem. Others do not. And if arguing about the method misses the point why is the method part of the argument against it? Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 21:17, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
The argument the anti-execution crowd often makes is that there is absolutely no humane way to kill someone. Even "humane" methods fail to remove the absolute worst part of dying; the whole fear around it. If someone were to offer you the choice between being hung until dead or just being hit with an instant-death ray, the second option is an improvement but not exactly enough of one that you'd be thrilled that someone was offering it to you at all. Executions are a form of psychological torture, no exceptions. That said, I am not against executions existing, but as I mentioned, they should require something similar to a parole board. CorUser (brawl) 21:29, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I'm against executions barring the most extreme circumstances. I think it should work similar to parole. To get paroled early, the convict needs to have shown they are remorseful for their actions. Perhaps inmates should only remain on death row if they have not shown remorse for their actions, though with some mechanism for people to maintain innocence. E.g., if a convict has been bragging about the murder to other inmates, that demonstrates lack of remorse, execution can proceed. The convict maintains innocence, but does not demonstrate any sympathy for the victim's family, execution can proceed. The convict demonstrates remorse and empathy, the execution gets delayed and perhaps eventually the sentence gets permanently knocked down to life without parole. CorUser (brawl) 14:58, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
Agree with Bob here -- the point I was getting at by saying noting that it's untested is that they have no idea how effective the gas they're using will be in execution, and what it will actually feel like. An article I read likened it to human experimentation, which it sort of is. Also, I find the Zyklon B detail to be pretty significant in context, mostly because despite the fact that we as a society have deemed the Holocaust to be a horrific tragedy that should not be repeated, we ourselves are resorting to similar methods and allowing it to happen. When Zyklon B was used in German camps, it was a crime against humanity, yet using it against American prisoners is A-OK now. Jake Holmesyell at me 15:05, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
The difference being that death row inmates were convicted of having committed the murder of another human being, whereas the people in the gas chambers were convicted of the crime of existing. "Why" matters more than "what" when it comes to ethics. CorUser (brawl) 16:42, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
That is true, but I don't really feel like you can defend the ethics of killing, no matter who it is. If taking a human life is a punishable offense, why do we give other people the right to do the same thing? Jake Holmesyell at me 17:49, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Taking property, kidnapping and imprisonment are also punishable offenses, but it's also something the government does. We give government the ability to do these things. Why? Because we want to, that's the only Why we really need, because ultimately, Right and Wrong are whatever we want them to be.
Optimistic Nihilist here. Life has no inherent meaning, but that doesn't mean life is without any meaning, because we have the ability to give whatever meaning we want to life. Same with Morals and Ethical Nihilism; I don't believe actions are inherently Moral or Immoral, but Bad things are Bad because we decide they are. CorUser (brawl) 18:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Indeed it boggles my mind that people can find a crime so abhorrent that it requires a penalty...which is as abhorrent as the crime itself (murdering a murderer). Capital punishment is murder. Murdering someone because they murdered someone makes little sense to me. It's about as logical as the state gauging out someone's eye because they damanged someone else's eye during a bar fight. Or the state having a citizen rape someone who committed a rape. While those punishments seem ridiculously absurd for most people, the state murdering a citizen doesn't. This is reflective of a countries approach to justice and the penal system. Those which look to rehabilitation and crime prevention seem to have much healthier societies, less recidivism and a much much lower prison population. Those which see justice as some sort of tribal retaliation, just desert, pay back, suffering the pain you inflicted taking satisfaction in the bastard rotting in a living-hell seem to have enormous prison populations, high levels of violence, and enormous policing and prison cost and a less healthy society. Blood lust for the death penalty seem to go hand in hand with the ideology of a merciless tribalistic retributive tough on crime justice system. Ironically, support for the death penalty in the West is highest in the United States. The country where in some states there is enormous levels of paranoia that the government wants to take your guns away, control your life and limit your liberties and attack your freedoms. And yet they seem to fully support the government being able to murder you...to take away your very right to life. It's puzzling. ShabiDOO 18:51, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
I also view prisons themselves as abhorrent. "Kidnapping" someone for years, to me, is more depraved an act than stealing a car. Yet, we imprison car thieves, and I believe this is necessary.
As I've said, I don't oppose the death penalty existing, I oppose its overuse. CorUser (brawl) 20:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Prisons *are* abhorrent and in the United States we’re certainly engaged in their overuse, but I draw a qualitative line between it and the death penalty, the former is a necessary evil while the latter is not. There’s no possibility of redress if it turns out an innocent man was railroaded and murdered by the state, and it should therefore be reserved as Aloysius the Gaul said for cases “beyond all doubt,” not just “reasonable doubt.” This is also an impossible standard: we’ve all seen cases beyond reasonable doubt, but it’s an inherently subjective judgement and often changes over time, therefore there's always some doubt. If someone fails a polygraph and society later deems polygraphs inadmissible or a witness didn’t see what they claimed (or believed) they saw, or an aggressive and career-minded DA with a 90% conviction rate caves to pressure from a mayor up for reelection and has a confession beaten out of an unpopular suspect by a bigoted police force, we can certainly have doubt about the suspect’s guilt, especially as these facts percolate to the surface over time and long after the trial and sentencing. And we’re entering an era of deep-faked video: we’ll need expert witnesses to testify to the authenticity of incriminating footage soon enough. I’d rather nine guilty men spend the remainder of their lives in prison on the state dime than one innocent be wrongfully executed: it’s wrong, and it squanders the state’s legitimacy besides. Artificius (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Does RW support Anarchy

I'm curious as to whether RW supports Anarchy in addition to other leftists ideologies or is supposed to be entirely apolitical? Thanks. Harry Potter (talk) 11:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Anarchism. RationalWiki, the website, is critical of Anarchism. Individual editers may be proponents of it, however. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 11:52, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
The wiki has no official political stance either right or left. Our mission is:
  1. Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement;
  2. Documenting the full range of crank ideas;
  3. Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism;
  4. Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.
Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:19, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I find proponents of anarchism unable to come up with answers to how they would effectively deal with difficult problems such as how the state would protect children from child abuse (and remove children from abusive or neglectful parents) or manage something like citizens who have been unjustly incarcerated in other countries. Answers tend to be evasive, conflict with their own general principles or are extremely vague like "the community would handle it". I cannot embrace any ideaology whose answer to difficult questions are: It will just work out. I don't expect a 5000 page policy document but some explanation of the mechanism behind how things are decided and enforced in practice are necessary. I find these answers impossible to find. I don't think most mbers here take anarchy very seriously. ShabiDOO 12:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
@Shabidoo Anarchism. The ideology is anarchism, with the desired end state being called anarchy. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:39, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
The anarchism article wasn't very critical of anarchism until a few months ago :P. Our more hardcore anarchists have been beaten with a rubber hose moved on. CorUser (brawl) 12:56, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
More than likely they're too drunk these days to log on. Oh the drama from those days, I do miss the drama and the egos and.. Oh wait, no I don't miss the egos and whatever. It's so much more peaceful now. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:34, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
The wikiverse-in-general has to be considered as well as RW-in-particular (and all other 'themed' wikis) - from each according to their skills and interests, to each according to their questions (whether sensible or otherwise). Anna Livia (talk) 14:04, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
RW does not support any particular political ideology. We have had contributors from a wide range of political ideologies. If there is any political ideology that RW encapsulates, it is anti-authoritarianism and anti-fundamentalism. See RationalWiki. Bongolian (talk) 19:34, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
But are we fundamentalist in our approach to anti-fundamentalism? Paradox of tolerance. CorUser (brawl) 19:38, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
Isn't that a false paradox though? I can be liberal in thought and deeds, but will gladly punch a fascist in the mouth. There should never be a tolerance of intolerance. The notion is deliberately divisive and is brought up to deflect from the initial group that is reprehensibly intolerant. Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:44, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
There is a case for allowing expressions of intolerance to be in the open, because at least they can be seen and interacted with appropriately. Anna Livia (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
In some cases, I grant you, but come on. Two groups protesting, one side wants to outlaw and kill gays/women/blacks/browns/and thing that they do not identify, and the other group opposes it, but must do so in a 'tolerant and civil manner'. Where do you suppose tolerating the intolerance of others fits in there? In Europe we outlaw it. Hate speech is abhorrent. giving it a platform like you see regularly in the USA, has allowed it to grow and fester and destroy discourse in public platforms. Granted those same abhorrent ideologies are growing in Europe, see that fucking headcase Viktor Orban, or Marine Le Pen, or any other purulent "free speech" hate monger gaining power and strength in recent times (a big fuck you to Jim Dowson, might I add.) These individuals to not want to engage or join a peaceful discourse they want to destroy, dehumanise and kill anything the see as different to them or threatening to their mythic history. (we seem to gotten off topic here, sorry.) Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
A fair bit of fundamentalists tend to be intolerant. So, no, it's not a big derailment. Incidentally, ironically, tolerance tends to be a pretty strong pillar in most of the core text of the religions that these fundies are warping. So, I don't think it's a terribly "fundamentalist" to point out to the fundamentalists that they are not as "literalist" as they think, nor is it fundamentalist to remind them that things like spewing hatred of xxx in online comment forums kinda are violating the various versions of the Golden Rule many religions have a wee bit, eh? It's not dogmatic, it's just recognizing they are violating their own dogma. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Didn't mean to get us down this road, but since we are here...
No leader has ever restricted the ability of others to do what the leader wanted them to; Rights are about what you don't want people to do. That's what's so thorny about hate speech laws. Sure, we'd love for assholes to shut up, but if they can't say nasty things we might not really have free speech at all. CorUser (brawl) 17:55, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
That is the radical American approach to free speech. And it is pretty uniquely American in the free world. I am not aware of any other country that doesn't curb speech nor where a majority of the population finds that controversial (including France where liberty is part of their national history and identity). I should say whatever shit I want or I don't have free speech. That is a ridiculous sentiment. Americans are prohibited from saying all sorts of things (or at least will pay a legal/civil price for it) of which none of it is controversial. There are libel laws, copyright laws, laws against saying things that incite crimes, cause a disturbance, reveal classified information, go against national security, use insulting language in contempt of court (this is not an exhaustive list). Especially the stuff about inciting crimes...right? Hate narratives is a brain virus. It serves no purpose except to hurt and maintain inequality. These words can fester and make life intolerable for marginalised people, undeniably leads to violence, discrimination and inequality. Each country has to decide for themselves what the limit is. For some countries you have to say something truly dehumanising and offensive to get fined (or possibly imprisoned) in others the bar is set low and randomly calling a stranger "a stupid fucking fat faggot" is intolerable, serves no purpose except to inflict verbal violence and dehumanise someone and is comparable to physically assaulting someone (that can certainly be the subjective experience for the victim). So while for many Americans numerous constraints against free speech seem like no-braininess, even vicious harmful hate speech which perpetuates inequality and even leads to violence...is simply something that should be allowed because otherwise it simply constricts free speech (which isn't totally free anyways) beyond a magical line that somehow de-legitimises free speech at all. I'm not sure why but each country to their own. I find it hard to understand why people think it's reasonable to draw the line after libel but before vicious hate speech. I would say dehumanising a person because of their race is just as bad as potentially ruining someone's reputation. And the argument that prohibiting hate speech will somehow lead to governments censoring everything is ridiculous. There have been some form of hate speech laws for decades now in some countries and the government isn't stomping all over all the rest of their citizens rights, limiting political dissent or coming up with vocabulary lists. In fact in Spain, even after introducing hate speech laws they are in the process of removing other laws which limit speech (which would demonstrate the opposite of the arguments that controlling some speech creates a slippery slope). ShabiDOO 18:38, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Honestly I find that line of thinking to be absurd. It fails to account for the realities of defamation, misinformation, indirect incitement, and actual criminal conspiracy. I can't just run around threatening to hurt people, and bigots can't just run around shouting slurs. It's that simple. Would an idealized land of free speech be nice? Sure I guess. But so too would be a world without the need to enforce laws (anarchism), or a world without crime, or a world of complete social cooperation (communism). However, such pure idealism isn't possible due to the practical realities of society. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:42, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't disagree with you, but there are no simple answers. I just feel it's too dangerous to let the government decide what is and is not Hate Speech without a clearly defined process. Take any hate speech statement, and replace the targeted group with "Scientologists". "Scientologists control the media!" "Scientologists are terrorists!" Perhaps take a "true" statement about Scientologists, then replace "Scientologist" with "Homosexual", or perhaps "Muslim" or "Jew". Should the legality change in any of these cases, and why? CorUser (brawl) 19:32, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

transparency and accountability are always needed in government, even though many don't really care (Again the USA.) and since Shabi wrote,"including France where liberty is part of their national history and identity" (I'm not picking on you or having a go.In fact I agree with what you wrote.) it's easy to forget that the very same can be said about that great land of freedom and liberty, The US of A. Those ideals of freedom and liberty only apply, or applied to white men. to quote Jason Stanely's 'How Fascism Works' In ..(his).. famous speech, entitled “What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?,” Douglass calls out the hypocrisy of a country that practices human slavery while celebrating the ideal of liberty. Americans in the nineteenth century, including those who lived in the South, regarded their land as a beacon of liberty. How is this possible, Douglass asked, when it was built by the labor of enslaved Africans and a native population whose land rights and often rights to life were thoroughly ignored? So, how do you proscribe hate speech? Do you prohibit incitement? Do you target meaning? I'm sure it is something that can fill tomes of academia text and debates, but unlike debating the hideousness of Nietzsche's core philosophies, (something which Robert Newman does with such beauty in his Half-Full Philosophy Hour https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000n5yz/episodes/guide) these people don't care about civil discourse. These people want to dehumanise anything that is different from them and essentially kill it, be that someone with differnt skin, faith, culture, sexual orientation, different gender expression etc, they see these people as less than human and therefore not worthy of any civility or even life. And you've seen this rhetoric in the States, that utter scumbag driving his car into a crowd ffs. Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
At the University of Wisconsin, someone actually tried to get an English professor sanctioned for hate speech for... wait for it... going over how Geoffrey Chaucer used the word niggardly. For people (generic, not directed at anyone) who claim to dislike the prison-industrial complex, hate speech laws are a fine way to create a lot more police interactions that have at least some potential to evolve into use of deadly force, all because someone's feelz got hurt super bad. And of course, no one ever seems to remember how it'll affect those of us who can't keep up with the latest fads on Things That Grievously Hurt Peoples' Feelz, It's a hard enough time remembering to say a proper goodbye at family gatherings (I know it sounds ridiculous, but perhaps the Irish in me is just extra strong!), there's no way I'm keeping track of the latest turnings of the euphemism treadmill (and it applies to me, I'm afflicted with a form of The Big A and have no desire to fuck with the name Asperger's syndrome). Seriously, a bunch of people unironically pulled the race card out over Steve Martin for King Tut because it was somehow hateful towards... well someone, apparently, it's not really clear who. I want no part of hugging the tar baby that is "hate speech laws". The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:08, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
That example of misunderstanding a word and wanting to sanction is nothing new (mob attacks and property damage over the job title https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society ). But since we are talking American Universities, isn't there currently outcry amongst the supposed 'free-speech' brigade over the teaching of Critical Race Theory? Of course it's disingenuous to condemn 'Critical Race Theory' and to avoid it's subject, Racism. (see the wonderful The Nib https://thenib.com/thinking-critically/) Quite similar to the obfuscation with that idiotic term Jordan Peterson and his ilk have trotted out, Cultural Marxism. Sounds scary, especially to those unwilling to find out what it means, but in every argument Peterson and his ilk have made about the evils of 'cultural marxism' do yourself a favour and simply replace it with equality. The true meaning of his outrage, and in fact the quite fascistic stance of his ideology is apparent. And he would indeed deserve a punch in the mouth. (not in the slightest bit sorry about that.) But in this context, from misunderstanding of the word niggardly, to job title and the 'evils' of critical race theory and vacuous threat of Cultural Marxism, these examples are not hate speech. They are misunderstandings of words either deliberate or through poor education and/or reasoning. And that would include Steve Martin, but since I haven't seen it I can't comment. But the ECRI does have an outline here https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-commission-against-racism-and-intolerance/hate-speech-and-violence Cardinal Chang (talk) 08:55, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I also oppose any of the silly bans on CRT; I don't happen to agree with all of it, but that's no reason to ban it. Thankfully the laws purporting to ban it are so ridiculously overbroad they don't stand a chance of holding up in court. Especially if you don't agree with it, the very real issues it raises force you to come up with something better, and that's exactly how people should approach arguments. Also, the iconic Steve Martin video is here, I don't think it's possible to keep a straight face while watching it. While it was mostly college kids who bitched about the saxophone player imitating blackface (no, seriously, I really wish I was making this up), as we've seen college kids end up becoming members of the workforce who bring this idiocy with them. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
That King Tut skit is very funny. Seems those you claim are outraged over it are missing the point entirely. Musically it reminds me of Frank Zappa, who if memory calls was on SNL around the same time and was never asked back again. But that would be more over personality clashes. Frank was rather anti drug, and SNL by this period was heading into or was deeply riddled with cocaine especially in the writers room. Cardinal Chang (talk) 20:39, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I would say that anyone offended by King Tut needs to pull their head out of their ass and figure out what real racism actually looks like. But I'd also like evidence that this is nothing more than a handful of college lefty idiots. Google seems to suggest that there were a few articles about this subject in 2017, some of them from classic nutpicking media sources like the New York Post and the Washington Examiner. In contrast, Republicans are taking this Critical Race Theory thing (in itself a previously obscure lefty piece of academia circulating primarily around lefty legal analysis circles) and actually crafting legislation banning teaching this in schools, even though no grade-level teacher ever taught it, and most Republicans don't even know what the fuck it is. It seems like, in America, there is a much larger base of people this sort of legislative shit plays well with: idiotic racists who think college is infested with purported atheist Marxist fascist professors that will indoctrinate you with EVIL THOUGHTS!!!. Does this compare with lefties from the dumb "we're outraged by a 40 year old comedy skit" crowd? Well, please let me know when Democrats start drafting legislation to outlaw wild and crazy guys from comedy circuits. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 12:12, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Ironically, waving around CRT as a bogeyman gives it a much wider audience and a sort of cachet it wouldn't have had otherwise. Do we even have CRT as part of another article anywhere? I don't really see it as anything more than a lone sentence anywhere. CorUser (brawl) 15:17, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
As I understand it, CRT is an academic hardline for black activism. Much of it goes without saying: black complaints should be heard; blacks should not be blamed for problems stemming from social history; laws can be structurally biased against people of color. On the other hand, some of it sounds neurotic and denialist; white people are always expressing racism in some way; all laws are racist in some way. The reification fallacy is strong in CRT: because problems exist somewhere, they must exist everywhere, and people of color are always at a disadvantage. Ariel31459 (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
But then you get (admittedly obscure) nutjobs who declare that preferring thin women is racist, when someone should've slapped them upside the head for being so stupid. Similarly, it's becoming more and more mainstream in the LBGT community to view people who won't date trans* as bigots, never mind that thinking you are entitled to sex with others is literally the exact line of thought the anti Rape-Culture folks have been working to eliminate. CorUser (brawl) 19:08, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
One can't change a person's mind about who they want to date by calling them a bigot. as a matter of fact, one can't change anyone's mind about anything that way. It's mostly kids who do that, I think. They'll learn, in time. UncleKrampus (talk) 01:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
In my experience, no- though ancom brigading did cause us mods quite a bit of grief a few months ago, chiefly due to JD and Oxy making it easier for them to abuse our site with random ideological demotions that exploited a bureaucratic loophole in our CS. Indeed, I once even had to sysrevoke one of the passionate brigadeers to stop those people from demote-warring with Twodots and I against the will of the mob- all without even trying to hide their intentions. Not to mention the childish drama from that MS77 person over site politics, of all things, who once even went so far as to compare me to TAOB over a chicken coop thread, and then repeatedly cite the unnecessary coop I'd long since retracted in their whining about Christopher's overall existence- which didn't sit well with me AT ALL.
That being said, we do have some more benign leftist editors like GC and Asela. --Goatspeed. See what I'm up toCircularREmail2.gifasoningSee my experiments 23:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure how left GC really is. He's at least center-left, but I don't get the sense that he's far-left. Maybe a Soc-Dem? CorUser (brawl) 04:16, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, you're probably right --Goatspeed. See what I'm up toCircularREmail2.gifasoningSee my experiments 07:11, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
As one of the “nice anarchists” here lmao, I feel like I should just say the reason why I’m an anarchist and some form of anti-capitalist. I don’t necessarily think a stateless/non-capitalist society be perfect. I don’t have all the answers, and I don’t pretend to. I also recognise that these forms of society are probably, let’s say, somewhat impractical with the world as it is now. However, I have run into many problems both in my own life and through my uni studies that I think genuinely cannot be solved if either capitalism or the state continue to exist. I’m not Big Brained enough to run through a whole detailed plan for a hypothetical future, so my vision for society is basically just, “a world that can solve issues inherent to the state and capitalism”. Ppl here don’t seem to mind, however. My guess is that it’s because I don’t feel smart enough to Debate My Beliefs, so I mostly just keep it to myself unless it’s either: relevant, easy for me to defend, and/or uncontroversial on RW. Also I avoid conflict as much as possible. Hope that helps 💗 A S E L A ཊལྐ 💗 12:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Don't worry about being Big Brained enough to solve it, so long as you understand that no one person is Big Brained enough to solve it. The best you can do is create a system where there's an ability to patch obvious holes, which is the entire point behind Democracy, and when the Democracy itself has holes a motivated citizenry can fix those holes through ballot initiatives and or with state conventions, even if it seems to take forever. That's why RCV is finally being used in New York City's Mayoral election, and hopefully it will catch on for all major elections. Capitalism has a huge number of flaws, and the entire premise behind Keynesian economics is to plug in those holes to save Capitalism from itself, but again, John M Keynes was smart and had great ideas but he himself didn't know everything and nothing he said should ever be taken as gospel. CorUser (brawl) 19:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Does breakfast jumpstart your metabolism

I’ve seen a few articles saying it does and some saying it doesn’t. What’s the truth?Machina (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Your blood sugar is low in the morning, eating breakfast raises it. When you have higher blood sugar, you have more energy and your body uses more energy. CorUser (brawl) 17:20, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
You ain't eaten in 8 hours or so, your body has been busy doing it's night time sleepy thing. You need sustenance. Have some toast, bitta fruit and a coffee (it'll be the jump start your bowel needs. and the only "jump start" that is needed)Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:38, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I would say that "jump start" is a pretty bad phrase. Because your metabolism has by no means "stopped" so it does not need restarting. But will you have more calories in your system if you have had something to eat in the morning? Well, duh!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:38, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Learning the difference between skepticism and conspiracy/paranoid thinking

Dont know if this has been discussed already but i like to know the difference between applying proper skepticism and if there is ever point where it becomes paranoid thinking. At times I find that i tend to always “look for flaws” or sometimes questioning “what if” when im thinking to myself. There are also times where i may come across news stories, hear claims from people in casual conversation, or when im researching something online and sometimes internally question the validity of what im hearing or reading. Just want to know at what point does skepticism becomes paranoid thinking (if any) and how would i apply the difference when receiving and collecting information in the future.(Yes i have read both RW on skepticism and paranoia)SensaurC-137 (talk) 00:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Skepticism involves tailoring one's beliefs, and one's confidence in those beliefs, to the available evidence. One doubts claims in the light of evidence, and of background knowledge. Paranoia involves doubt of a dogmatic character, characteristically granting improbable explanations outsized influence over one's thought. "Sure, all evidence suggests that 2 + 2 = 4, but surely it is possible that I've miscalculated every time. Perhaps I am even being made to mess up, by a cabal of lizardmen! Why, it seems just as likely that I would get 4 if there were some powerful cabal of influential lizardmen deceiving me, as if it were the true answer! Maybe it is even the work of Satan himself!" What separates this doubt from skeptical doubt? Well, it fails to account for the full range of evidence, and it fails to evaluate the prior probabilities of the various hypotheses involved. It is irrational to lose all confidence in the truth of something, because it is possible to imagine some improbable scenario in which it is false. Obviously, I am making use of the most extreme example as an illustration; one does not need to be so extreme to become irrational. "So, what is a reasonable level of doubt?" Well, there is no concise answer. If you find yourself doubting strong scientific consensus, you have almost certainly gone beyond skepticism (which is, at root, an empirical enterprise). In practice, knowing the difference is something of an intuitive exercise, and there are really other, subtler issues that are more likely to plague you in your efforts to be reasonable. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 01:39, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Here is perhaps an illustrative example of what distinguishes dogmatic doubt from skeptical doubt. My initial hypothesis is that Dave is in this room with me. Having formed this hypothesis, I take a look around the room, and produce this evidence: I do not see Dave in this room. A rational person, in this situation, would revise their hypothesis, deciding that Dave is probably not in this room with me. The paranoiac, on the other hand, is unlikely to make this inference. They might consider such alternative hypotheses as (in order of increasing absurdity): Dave is hidden behind some object in the room, my senses have deceived me, and I did not see Dave even though he was in plain sight, or Dave is in the room, but he has turned himself invisible. All three of these hypotheses are supported by the evidence. But if they are supported by the evidence, what makes them (especially the latter two) irrational?
My preferred approach to explain this is to put things in terms of possible worlds. Initially, before looking around the room, I compare the set of all possible worlds, and I determine that the set of possible worlds in which Dave is in the room is larger than the set of possible worlds in which Dave is not in the room, which is what motivates my initial hypothesis. After I look around the room, the evidence I gain eliminates some of the possible worlds I started with. Namely, any world in which I see Dave in this room has become impossible. Under certain, reasonable assumptions (most notably, that my senses are reliable sources of information), the set of worlds where I see Dave in the room contains more worlds where Dave is in the room than where he is not. Consequently, the set of possible worlds in which Dave is in the room shrinks more than the set of possible worlds in which Dave isn't in the room. If the difference is big enough (and it should be, if my senses are reliable), then after accounting for the evidence, there are more possible worlds left in which Dave isn't in the room than in which he is, and the reasonable conclusion is that Dave is not in the room.
Here is the subtle point. If Dave were invisible, then I wouldn't see him even if he were in the room. Consequently, my evidence eliminates none of the possible worlds in which Dave is in the room and is invisible. Since I have the same number of possible worlds with an invisible Dave, but fewer total possible worlds, the share of worlds with invisible Dave has increased as a proportion of all possible worlds (in other words, it has become more likely). What makes this an unreasonable conclusion is that Dave has to be in the room to be invisible and in the room. The increased probability of in the room and invisible cannot make up for the overall lost probability of in the room at all. No matter what, my failure to see Dave in the room should make me less confident that Dave is in the room. If the room has a lot of sight-obstructing stuff, the evidence might be weak enough that I still think he is more likely there than not, but the evidence should still push me in the same direction.
The takeaway from this is that a piece of evidence can be both evidence against a hypothesis H and for a hypothesis G that entails H (in my example, against the hypothesis that Dave is in the room and for the hypothesis that Dave is in the room and is invisible). Paranoia tends to involve taking the increased probability of G as reason not to give up one's confidence in H (or even to become more confident in H: consider "the lack of evidence is evidence of the coverup" type thinking): this is a fallacy. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 02:56, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
@SensaurC-137@Serene I strongly advise against using possible worlds to distinguish between scepticism and paranoid thinking. For example, Serene states: “Initially, before looking around the room, I compare the set of all possible worlds”, this presupposes that we can compare possible worlds. To compare possible worlds we need identity criteria i.e. we should be able to say that everything is identical with itself. Serene’s example relies on the assumption that we can compare actual “Dave” with each possible Dave, and this requires that each ‘possible Dave’ = ‘actual Dave’; without this assumption we cannot make sense of who we are talking about in each possible world. Indeed, we should be able to substitute an identical for another identical whilst preserving the truth value of a given sentence. However, the substitutivity of identicals fails for possible entities. If actual Dave is not in the room and possible Dave is, then the substitutivity of identicals fails. ‘Dave is identical to Dave’ is false!? This failure of identity undermines our understanding of who, or what, we are even talking about.
Moreover, when Serene says that she is “comparing possible worlds”, in order to do this, she needs to quantify over possible worlds I.e. form sentences of the form ‘there are “possible worlds” or ‘all “possible worlds”. However, ‘possible worlds’ do not occur in a referential context, such as ‘there are electrons’, because possible worlds don’t refer to anything (empirical evidence can neither confirm nor falsify possible worlds, ersatz or concrete). Since the term ‘possible world’ doesn’t refer to anything, it must instead occur in the metalanguage of some formal system, where it is mentioned—not used. Thus the term ‘possible world’ is instead being quantified over in a quotational context viz. ‘there are “possible worlds”’; it is tantamount to saying ‘there are names that don’t refer to anything’. Using possible worlds amounts to just naming empty names.Thus possible worlds are part of the empty class, alongside: Pegasus, the round square, the Russell class, etc. Fortunately, ‘possible worlds’ can be paraphrased into an extensional language where they don’t occur.
In conclusion, possible worlds which aren’t suitable for the working scientist and her standards of clarity and precision; let alone the sceptic who wishes to disentangle the wheat of scepticism from the chaff of paranoia. LeucippusTalk 17:03, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Nothing to really add to that response but you (Sensaur) might want to read confirmation bias as well. You should ask yourself if you are challenging certain statements because they challenge your beliefs or because you really want more information. (Though it's entirely possible that you are already familiar with this idea.)
You might also want to read Pseudoskepticism which talks about skepticism when it is incorrectly used.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Both responses are appreciated. I always try to stay aware of my own confirmation biases though like most people I can be susceptible to emotional pleas at times. It mainly when weeding out and determining what bad or misinformation is where i guess i have trouble at. conspiracy theories and woo can have half-truths that i could be swayed by in any given circumstance. Simply put, i don’t like being misleadSensaurC-137 (talk) 14:45, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
I honestly think that there may sometimes be a demarcation problem in conspiracy theories in the same way that it can exist between science and pseudoscience. Clearly there are many real conspiracies in the world and clearly there are many conspiracy theories. In most cases it is pretty clear if it real or not. The world is not flat, Covid is not caused by 5G and there is no secret group of pedophile hunters led by Donald Trump. On the other hand there have been real conspiracies to commit fraud, commit terrorist acts and undermine governments. Typically the questions are: how many people need to be involved and what is being gained? If the alleged conspiracy requires hundreds of thousands of people and it's not clear who gains what - then it's going to be in "conspiracy theory" repertory.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Trump definitely isn't leading the hunt for pedophile world leaders, but there definitely are quite a few pedophiles and other sexual predators in powerful positions that have been hushing everything up. We only found out recently that Bill Gates was forced out of MicroSoft for sexual misconduct, if there was no divorce that secret would've been taken to the grave. Bill Clinton was accused of misconduct by numerous women before Lewinsky, one of whom alleged rape, so Clinton being tied to Epstein doesn't exactly instill confidence. Prince Andrew is a twat, and I think the royal family has been covering up some of his activities. The only truly ridiculous thing about the "pedophile ring" theory is the idea that Trump would be the one to take them down, because what, as an experienced predator himself he knows all their tricks? CorUser (brawl) 18:29, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
I agree that pedophiles exist and that some of them will be powerful. But as I said: "there is no secret group of pedophile hunters led by Donald Trump" . It's utter conspiracy nuttiness put about by Qanon.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
So... we agree on everything? CorUser (brawl) 19:54, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
Apparently. I honestly wasn't sure what your point was.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:52, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
To be fair, that was one of his campaign arguments, albeit applied to a different subject. Wouldn’t be surprised to hear his supporters use the same logic here. Artificius (talk) 03:35, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
My point is, that while the QAnon weirdos are twisted, there are kernels of truth in their whole "Satan-worshipping baby-rapers are running everything" brain-tumor lunacy. In other news, I'm finally comfortable with "brain-tumor" being my go-to insult for people now that "retarded" is a no-no word. CorUser (brawl) 23:36, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
The biggest kernel here is how much QAnon itself was run by "Satan-worshipping baby-rapers" -- well, maybe not quite that far, but the yahoos that ran 8chan (home of the "official Q drops") had a pretty solid reputation for allowing questionable child-exploitation-oriented material on their site. Other than that, the rich and famous are people, not some cartoon-ish stereotype, and it's not surprising that a few of them have various issues, just like everyone else. That really isn't the underlying issue anyways with the QAnon crowd, at any rate. It's basically a bunch of probably-not-the-best-and-brightest people fearful of change, getting involved in a quasi-cult-like online movement dedicated to letting them know that People Different Than You Are Evil For Some Reason, and spewing shit at perceived enemies accordingly. (And I do mean shitty ideas. Whoever first trolled QAnon with that fuckin' HST Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas adrenochrome-meets-the-blood libel nonsense deserves some kind of "nice trollin', man, but you're not helping" kind of award...) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:01, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The problem is that the rich and famous get away with stuff for so long that "I might suffer consequences" is not a deterrent for them. If a rich person has a dark desire, society isn't what will stop them. The rich and poor are very similar when it comes to crime, drugs and sex, because they either lose nothing or have nothing to lose. It's the various working and middle classes that are obsessed with obeying laws and not getting into trouble. CorUser (brawl) 04:56, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
So your point is rich people have it easier under all circumstances? It's certainly true, but not very profound.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The famous rich actually might have more problems than the mere middle class in some respects due to constantly being in the media spotlight. Leaving "dark desires" aside, let's just take some kinks and recreational chemistry. Jerry Falwell Jr. for instance clearly liked to party and also engage in cuckold fetish type stuff. Elon Musk made headlines merely for smoking pot on Joe Rogan's podcast. Whether it matters or not depends on what media rep you've staked. I don't think too many people gave a shit about Musk smoking pot, because no one who is not a moral nanny cares about pot anymore, and it fits with Musk's rep. On the other hand, booze n' cuckolding did not exactly fit with Falwell Jr.'s image as president of Liberty University, and it hurt him bad.
None of this applies, of course, to the less famous rich. But who's fault is that? In my experience, in America, certain "middle classes that are obsessed with obeying laws and not getting into trouble" tend to over-obsess on making sure that the poor and minorities don't get too uppity and downplay those "in kind" that get in trouble, for tribal reasons alone. They'll happily ignore their Matt Gaetz / Roy Moore types with true "dark desires" and focus on making sure those "welfare recipients" are "drug tested" because reasons. QAnon is frankly a mess in part because of this sort of viewpoint, a whole lot of ignorance on how the world works. Sure, I could direct the Qs to actual, legitimate conspiracies that affected the world, such as the Libor scandalWikipedia. Would that affect their stupid, angry babbles? Most likely not. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:44, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I think the very existence of the MeToo movement proves that the famous rich could get away with numerous sexual assaults and other horrible shit, at least until recently, and I don't know how we'd be able to determine if famous or non-famous got away with more... CorUser (brawl) 05:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
One of the factors is when you allow what should be mutually exclusive thoughts to enter your thinking process. Either it was planted nuclear devices that destroyed the Twin Towers, or the planes were holograms and it was a Jewish space laser. Since a lot of the evil douchebags don’t even believe their own claptrap they allow the community hive mind to take control to let the marks to be conned fired up long enough to make donations. When confirmation bias shifts from stumbling on something wrong that sounds reasonable to thinking you’re edgy and cool for being part of some grand movement that will make the world a better place, you’re now paranoid. In the meantime you’re doing a bang up job making the world a worse place. Good a decent people not wanting to be in health care because it’s just not worth the aggravation of being harassed because social media is basically allowing monetized harassment.Antigem (talk) 09:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

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The majority of conspiracy theories only exist to establish an "in" and "out" group, not because the people themselves believe it. CorUser (brawl) 18:43, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
@Leucippus I am not trying to use them so formally, more as an informal way to reify probabilities, and thereby to avoid discussing probabilities with more abstract language, which I felt would bog down the presentation. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 22:52, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
@Serene Good. Your use of possible worlds, as an expository tool, does achieve the desired result—a cogent inductive argument. Bayesian subjectivist probability (I.e. probability as degree of belief) seems the best approach for resolving your thought-experiment. LeucippusTalk 23:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I would agree with that. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 12:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Bob M R.e. your comment on a “demarcation problem” for conspiracy theories: I think that demarcation is too simplistic — an all or nothing distinction. There will be no place to draw a sharp line between genuine conspiracies and delusive ones. What separates them is a matter of gradation. Popper’s “Demarcation problem” is unscientific—drawn up from outside of science, from a philosophical vantage point. The lack of resolution on the demarcation problem speaks volumes as to traditional philosophies redundancy. LeucippusTalk 16:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. The demarcation problem talks about the difficulty of deciding how and where to draw a clear line between pseudoscience and science - or even if it possible to draw a clear line between the two. (That's why it's called a "problem".) Obviously most things are clearly one thing or the other but - like most issues in the world there is a continuum.
If I understand you correctly you are taking the same stance. So I'm not sure why you would take issue with my comment.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:16, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
My point is that there is no “problem” to begin with and that the “problem” can be dissolved. It’s this focus on a clear separating-line that causes the problem in the first place. Moreover, this “problem” doesn’t arise within science e.g. there is no scientific field that has discovered demarcating distinctions as real phenomena. The demarcation problem arises from philosophical concerns which are both uninteresting and irrelevant to ongoing science. Pseudoscience and its ilk are simply useless for working scientists, since they’re claims cannot be translated into well-formed scientific language. LeucippusTalk 20:01, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Raisi is now the President of Iran

Shit is about to go down. Monet talk 07:48, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

How? Does the president of Iran suddenly have actual power? Funny how the west only cares who the president of Iran is if he's somebody likely to say stupid crap, like Ahmadinejad. Did anybody ever see much of anything written about the president of Iran for the last 8 years? It's almost like... Like the west knows the Iranian president isn't important, but likes spicy soundbites for propaganda purpose, and so ignores him if he's somewhat moderate... Dendlai (talk) 11:46, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
The president of Iran actually has quite a bit of power. Not as much as the Ayatollah, but still. Also, Fuck... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 11:59, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
A fundamentalist religious conservative as president of a theocratic state? I see no cause for concern. As these types of comments are often taken literally I should mention that this is nor my real opinion. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:53, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
This is the status quo. To paraphrase a disaffected Iranian non-voter, when a country has a supreme leader there is no point in voting. Raisi's actual powers are overstated because most of them can be overruled by the Ayatollah. Bongolian (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Not really status quo, Rouhani was much more moderate. With Raisi, the conflict with USA/Israel will escalate. But surprisingly, there are many muslim countries who are backing the US (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Indonesia, Egypt), probably because of their hatred of Shia muslims. Monet talk 08:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Vindication. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:42, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Growing support for Palestine among the general population, several countries and the Democratic Party- How will this affect Geopolitics?

For those who known me on the wiki for a while, you know that I support a free and independent Palestine. Anyways with newer generations pushing for governments to actively work for a two-state solution, how will governments respond? Thanks to Trump, the bigotry of the Republican Party and evangelicals support for Israel is starting to falter. Support for Palestine has noticeably grown in the Democratic Party and it is putting pressure on Biden relating to his current Israeli policy.

As a realist, I know that a two-state solution won't happen anytime soon. I cannot say how likely a confederation similar to Bosnia and Herzegovina would work out (one country that acts as two countries). --Boterham (talk) 23:58, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

I know very little about the politics of Palestine. Israel seems to really dislike the Gaza strip. What interest do they have in keeping Palestine part of Israel? Is there like a big port or something? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 01:56, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Eh, it's only a slight change over the past few years. CorUser (brawl) 02:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
All I want is the luxury of being able not to care about Israel or Palestine, because I do not actually care about Israel or Palestine. Unfortunately, in the USA, this is a luxury denied me. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 02:35, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Only growing support for palestine within israel would have significant effect AMassiveGay (talk) 06:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

There are three realistic solutions for the conflict:

One democratic state (Isratin) Likely, a civil war would break out.

One State (Israel) Palestinians either stay as equal citizens or they get deported to Jordan/Egypt.

Two/three-state solution (the most realistic one) Israel and Palestine (West Bank and Gaza): West Bank would be secular while Gaza has Sharia

The one-state (Palestine) is unrealistic, Israel would rather exterminate Palestine than allowing itself to be destroyed. Monet talk 08:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

the two state solution is dead and has been dead for awhile. it will take a hell of a lot of effort to revive. AMassiveGay (talk) 08:28, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is difficult, but it is the most realistic one, the others would likely result in a civil war. Monet talk 08:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

not really though, thats arse. it would not look too much different than it does now. just reduce 'palestine' to even more of rump state than it is now, then officially annex the west bank. note that 'solution' is not the same as a 'good or just outcome'AMassiveGay (talk) 09:05, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, Israel (and other middle eastern countries) should leave West Bank/Gaza. Monet talk 15:40, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
What about Israel disengage from the West Bank in exchange for an agreement which allows them to invade, and occupy the Gaza Strip in exchange, or failing that in exchange for Palestine agreeing to withdraw its claims to the Gaza Strip and allow Israel to hands the Gaza Strip back to Egypt (which occupied Gaza before the 1967 war)? Or what Israel returns the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt in exchange for peace? Also how would it be decided that Palestinians stay as equal citizens or get deported in the event that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are absorbed into Israel proper? I doubt that Israel would absorb Gaza unilaterally, it makes no sense in my opinion. Harry Potter (talk) 22:35, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Neither side is willing to give up any fraction of Jerusalem, and the rest of the country is a mess as well. Most Palestinian groups have outright stated that the want all of Israel, and that the return to the '67 borders is just a stepping stone on that path rather than the end-goal itself. The Israelis used to be better in this regard, but not for a while. In theory, the settlements were expanded specifically so that they could be exchanged for a peace deal (e.g., return to '80 borders instead of '67 or whatever), but as Gaza more or less proved that a "land for peace" deal would never actually work, the Israelis have basically given up on the idea of the two-state solution and no longer seem to have intentions of anything other than slowly chipping away at the WB piece by piece. CorUser (brawl) 17:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Some its leaders would absorb Gaza unilaterally if they could. The problem from their perspective is the Palestinians themselves: Israeli nationalists would see them deported or worse (don’t want them becoming citizens, this would dilute their authority within the Israeli state), but the surrounding Arabic states won’t let them out and look down on them considerably, and see them as a useful and persistent thorn in Israel’s side besides. The Palestinians themselves are basically caught between a rock and a hard place: it took a shit ton of protests just to get access to Egyptian hospitals without a visa. They’re not allowed to emigrate, as Egypt among others remains “committed to the Palestinian identity” of the refugees. In the long run, I figure it’s probably going to be a one-state solution, with all the unfortunate implications that enjoins. Artificius (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Israel did have a "fair" solution to this and other problems decades ago; restrict franchise to only those who join the military and pay taxes. This would also deal with the Ultra-Orthodox problem, who practically control the K'nesset and force other Israelis to abide by the Ultra-Orthodox's laws in spite of paying 0 taxes nor serving in the army. Ironically, this would shift the power more towards the Druze, whose religion basically requires them to join their country's military, but regardless, it would allow Israel to annex anything it wanted and grant residency to everyone without having to worry about shifting power of government towards people who want to end Israel. CorUser (brawl) 18:23, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Ah, the Haredim, the overbearing mother of the Jewish state. “We kept the religion alive for a thousand years and it’s time for us to contribute, you say?” “Ma, I’m just saying things are getting a bit tight-” “And whose fault is that? It’s Friday night and you’re about to go clubbing with that shiksa tramp, Jordan!” “Ma…” “Ugh, just go. I can’t even look at you.” Later at the UN: “…Holy shit, how did she do that?” Artificius (talk) 00:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Haredim and Hassidim weren't a thing until around the beginning of the 20th century. Israel turned a blind eye to them because there were only a few hundred at first, but more immigrated and then they all had 8+ kids each. CorUser (brawl) 00:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Shh, that's not what she's saying... Artificius (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Off Topic on Nature of Citizenship

Followup and off topic. From my own POV, I'm only weakly in favor universal suffrage/enfranchisement. Immanuel Kant felt the right to vote should be only for those who contributed to society as they'd have the vested interest in ensuring society's functioning, though he didn't believe women could ever vote. Yes he died a virgin, how did you know? Anyway, I understand his view, but who gets to decide what "productive" is? Originally, suffrage was for landowning White men, which is a problem because it ignores that 1) land itself is not a prerequisite for being a productive member of society, 2) non-White people are capable of being productive, and 3) women are capable of being productive as well. Restricting the right to vote to only those with money is also an issue, because poor people can absolutely be productive, and then there's the whole problem of why people might be poor especially if they don't have the ability to vote for better labor laws. Disabled people might contribute less, but some became disabled because they contributed, such as workplace accidents or casualties of war, and it'd be a horrible society that'd deny the vote to a disabled firefighter. Then there's felony disenfranchisement, which is its own issue. So really, letting everyone vote is the least awful system given what society is capable of. CorUser (brawl) 18:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Meant to respond to this allegedly derailed train of thought yesterday. Never knew they’d flirted with the Heinlein (Starship Troopers) model of government. Were they willing to take everyone who volunteered so long as said volunteers were willing to endure some bullshit for the state in pursuit of enfranchisement? ‘Cause that’s the thing that’d make it work (or not): if anyone’s barred entry to Federal service, it slowly saps the legitimacy of the government and the two-tiered society in question (the citizen/civilian dichotomy) along with any pretense of meritocracy is slowly eroded.
I’ve long been a fan of Kant (probably because of my autism), but he certainly had some flawed opinions (probably because of his autism [and the human condition, self-deprecation aside]). Sorry to read he got caught up in the elites of his time (all societies develop hierarchies; the question is whether they’re bullshit. I acknowledge that with the fullness of time they all become such [please see the history of the Janissaries for a similar military-dominated hierarchy failing.).
For anyone else reading, I wanted to emphasize that "military-dominated" is here used as a catch-all for theoretically being willing to catch a bullet for the country you were born in or want to join being a condition of enfranchisement. Heinlein went to pains in the novel with the protagonist's monologues (stilted as hell) to establish that "Federal service" does not equal "military." ~90% of folks who volunteered for federal service were assigned clerical duties and other shit needed to run the state, keep the lights on, what have you. But you certainly didn't have a choice: if they thought you were hale and hearty, your ass gets to go fight bugs while somebody else builds the ships you need (with no OSHA standards!). Artificius (talk) 01:05, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
@Artificius I'm friendly to Heinlein's view, but "civil service" isn't necessarily the best use of someone's talents. We'd have fewer surgeons available if they have to spend 4 years working civil service before beginning medical school. Some people establish businesses, acquire education and training, or create art, all of which contributes to society without having to work directly for the government. For me, a better system would be similar to the interviews that resident aliens have to go through to become citizens, but I'm afraid of it being abused in the obvious fashions, which is why I don't think we are ready to get rid of automatic enfranchisment. CorUser (brawl) 04:11, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Call me naïve, but internships as a medical apprentice in the government's employ work pretty well too. Knew a lot of "docs" who went on to become RNs and one doctor when they got out. Could we think of it as extremely shitty vocational school? I'm not ready to get rid of automatic franchise either by the way: I can just see problems with it. In Israel the bellicose foreign policy is at least partly a function of citizens who've never served, they're rightly afraid of going the other way and enfranchising a bunch of folks who won't have Israel's best interests at heart, and our (assuming you're also American, which is a stretch here) own issues with natural born citizens (and recruitable population) are hamstringing us left and right. Four or five years to become a citizen is plenty of time to correct the obesity epidemic on the back end. Artificius (talk) 05:14, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, America. But Israel's concerns about enfranchising Palestinians via a One State Solution or Right of Return would mostly disappear if only those who've served could vote. While Israeli Arabs don't have the same vision for Israel as Israeli Jews (then again, Israeli Jews don't have the same vision as Israeli Jews), it's hard to make a case that the people joining the army are outright hostile to their country. At worst, you'd get a large swath of voters who are demanding equal rights, rather than dissolution of the state. The real remaining question has to do with the "Jewish Refuge" part of Israel, and whether the Israeli Arabs would still accept that.
As you said, the foreign policy is being written in part by those who send someone else's kids to the front lines, or expanding settlements and demanding someone else's kids have to patrol the settlements. If all the Ultra-Orthodox had to serve, the settlements would be much, much less popular. In fact the settlements aren't even popular in the first place. Plus, the constant wars in Lebanon and Gaza would also look a bit different if the Ultra-Orthodox either had to fight them or weren't able to vote for them in the first place. CorUser (brawl) 15:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
hasnt every pm of israel been some kind of war hero, or least served in the military and seen action? AMassiveGay (talk) 20:58, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
its wishful thinking if you think having to fight in any wars is going to cut much ice. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:08, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
The politicians empowered by the bellicose electorate are incidental, their power is derived from the jerks who elect them. Like most prominent leaders of young nations, it’s easy to believe the Israeli prime ministers are veterans (not doing research/Google-fu to dispute or confirm your assertion because I’m drunk and listening to Disney shit, refuse to spoil this buzz, please feel free to kick my ass rhetorically). There is a great difference of opinion in any body of people if you quiz them, what I think Cory’s and mine point is that a tour of service – whether it’s shooting people who just don’t want to be displaced (bad, I know), building shit for your countrymen (does countryfolk play?), or serving in any capacity for the greater good of the society you live in – is a positive act of buying into the future of that society. Conferring citizenship on folk who want that society gone - your anarchists, your Nationalists, your libertarians, your Communists, your Arab nationalists or "ultra-orthodox" if you’re Israel – is self-defeating. If the assholes who empowered Bibi were forced to serve and see people bleed and die for a renewed Holy land, they might not be so quick to (the other guy’s) sword. Automatic citizenship can be seen as a problem in that context, like normal red blood cells near the equator (the choice is between sickle-cell anemia and malaria when the ultra-orthodox vote). Artificius (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
they have national service in israel. exemptions for the ultra orthodox ended in 2014. its a fantasy if you think it would stop people going to war AMassiveGay (talk) 06:39, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
its apparently dificult to find work win israel if dont have 'full military service'AMassiveGay (talk) 06:43, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
IIRC, the current rule is there's a 6 month extension for anyone in a Yeshiva, that can be re-extended indefinitely. The Yeshiva exemption was ruled unconstitutional and repealed multiple times, yet it still exists. The ultra-orthodox women are exempted entirely. Laws or not, the majority of Haredi and Chassidic Jews get exempted one way or another. CorUser (brawl) 14:22, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Rudy Giuliani

Watching Fear City on netflix - a doco about the fbi taking down thew mafia i n 1980s new york. its funny to see giuliani and not see a clown. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm from the part of Connecticut that's closer to New York than the rest of New England; I'm of the age where my first memory of Giuliani was explicitly rooting for the Yankees in the Subway Series (being a Yankee fan I supported that!), and my second was 9/11. For anyone who knew him at all before or after it's hard to imagine him any other way, but for someone like me it's difficult to process just how he went from my first memories to... whatever he's doing now. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:22, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The lesson about far-right nutjobs such as Giuliani is that the public will put up with anyone as long as the place is safe and people are making a bit of money. CorUser (brawl) 05:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
There's been an argument made that Giuliani hasn't changed much but that certain people's perception of him changed.[2] Bongolian (talk) 07:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The movie Day After Tomorrow: What it does not mention (I am applying logic to movies)

After most countries in the northern hemisphere are destroyed by massive storms followed by freezing over along with millions of refugees going south, the movie ends with astronauts saying how clear the skies looked due to pollutants being flushed out by the storms. Here is what the movie fails to address (again, I am applying logic to movies):

  • Food shortages brought by both destruction of farm land, extinction of many plants and too many refugees.
  • Shortage of both medical supplies and medical professionals.
  • Shortage of clean drinking water.
  • Lack of transportation.
  • Fuel shortages.
  • Damage to infrastructure caused by the storms.
  • Massive ethnic tensions.
  • Most communication systems would be catastrophically damaged by storms.
  • Disease outbreaks due to overcrowding and lack of medical supplies.
  • Almost certain economic collapse due to major economic centers being destroyed and most currencies likely becoming worthless.
  • Sharp increases in criminal activity due to overcrowding, lack of essential supplies, crumbling economy and ethnic tensions.
  • Mass extinction due to rapid climate change which would cause further shortages in food supplies.
  • Shortages of raw materials due to many sources of iron, copper among other metals being frozen over.

Anything I miss? --Boterham (talk) 19:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Please add to The Day After Tomorrow, which is stubby. Bongolian (talk) 19:36, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
The best part of the movie were all the Americans illegally immigrating into Mexico. CorUser (brawl) 22:40, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
@Bongolian Just did. --Boterham (talk) 02:15, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! Bongolian (talk) 06:15, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Skepticism

I really wish so-called skeptics were actually fair in their skepticism. Be skeptical of conspiracy theories, sure, but one should also be skeptical of official narratives. It's a credulous lot who only apply skepticism to things unfamiliar to them. Spot (talk) 11:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

examples pleaseAMassiveGay (talk) 11:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. One big part of skepticism is that we should base beliefs on the quality of available evidence - whether this be an official narrative or not. So if our editor can provide evidence of the "skeptical movement" failing to do this then that would be very important.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:26, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
The 'skeptical' movement of the early 21st century has turned out to have put on a pedestal some really unlikable and repugnant individuals. Namely, Richard Dawkins,Stephen Pinker, Michael Shermer, Sam Harris and Lawrence Krauss. What started with stated good intentions quickly turned into a parade of deplorables. All now "Free Speech" mavens, while some are also embroiled in allegations of sexual harassment. See here for a quick look at some questionable folk Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:38, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Completely agree, the so called “new atheists” and the other figures you’ve mentioned, have left unpleasant associations with the labels ‘atheist’ and ‘skeptic’ (even though they make up but a fraction of the atheist and sceptic demographic). All of the above figures have been at pains in showing how scientistic, Procrustean, and downright unsophisticated they are. For the atheists and sceptics of days gone (e.g. The Vienna Circle, The Warsaw logicians at the turn of the 20th century, and The Centre for Skeptical Inquiry), scepticism and atheism were largely implicit—and where explicit, they had no need for the simplistic labels and silly logos (that red A atrocity, for instance), worn as tribalistic badges of honour by Dawkins et al.
@Cardinal Chang The figures you mentioned (in particular Dawkins, Dennett, and Harris) were at their best when they were kissing Hitchens’ sophist arse. The highlight for me came during the first meeting of the new atheists at Hitchens apartment, when Dennett misunderstood Hitchens’ comment about “extirpating” something benign, as “exterminating religion”, which Dennett proceeded to gleefully assent to—this being characteristic of their sycophantic reverence of Hitchens. LeucippusTalk 22:26, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
I totally agree with Leucippus that the labels "atheist" and "skeptic" are at best cringe worthy. People commonly name their children "Christian" and "Christene", but who names their child "Atheist"? Nobody does. Full Nelson (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Dow plunges on news of global wut? shortage. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 23:20, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
In trying to find the essay by John Gray about Dawkins' and Harris' atheism as nothing of the sort but more akin the 19th Century Russian Nihilism similar to characters described by Dostoyevsky in, quite aptly in this context, The Idiot, I came across this Long Read from him in The Guardian (Although considering where John's viewpoint is now post Brexit I doubt he'll be writing anything new for The Guardian, he no longer does a Point of View for Radio 4 either. Cardinal Chang (talk) 23:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────International Journal for The Psychology of Religion study: "anti-atheist prejudice is not confined either to dominantly religious countries or to religious individuals, but rather appears to be a robust judgment about atheists."[3]

The new atheists confirmed a lot of the preexisting stereotypes that many people had. Fuller Nelson (talk) 02:43, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello obvious troll. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 04:10, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
So, when ken created a series of socks themed around the phrase "full nelson..." was he referring to the wrestling move or the Rule 34 tag? It could be either knowing him...-Flandres (talk) 04:16, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Well this is an hilarious selection of complaints about people in the skeptical movement. Skepticism is about apportioning your belief to the evidence. It's about critical thinking and avoiding cognitive biases. It's not about putting people on pedestals. Many of the strongest criticisms of some of the people mentioned above have come from within the movement - it is easy to think of organisations where this does not happen.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:39, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

the whole putting people on pedestals thing does not sound to me like 'one should also be skeptical of official narratives' that the op mentioned. difficult to say because they didnt specify any examples of their complaint. AMassiveGay (talk) 08:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
No, the thread has gone wildly off track and now has little to do with the initial post. (For which, as you point out, no evidence has been presented.) Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
There has been enormous skepticism of official government narratives emanating from the former US government administration. But I doubt that is the implied source material. I have no idea what Richard Dawkins, Stephen Pinker, Michael Shermer, Sam Harris and Lawrence Krauss have to do with the question as they are in no sense official narrators, just famous public intellectuals. Now you can take them or leave them, but either way, it would not affect the weight of their reputations.UncleKrampus (talk) 21:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
That was my fault, seen the name "Spot" in red, took it as a bad faith question and went with it. Sorry. Cardinal Chang (talk) 23:46, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Angular momentum is not conserved!!!1!one

Or so this guy claims. This guy has been going around for nearly a decade around several social media sites going on and on and on about how conservation of angular momentum doesn't exist based on his highly scientific experiment of him swinging a ball on a string around. Obviously not article material as the dude is a total nobody (if very persistent), but worth a chuckle (especially if you find out his particular debating style). 主要行事月 (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The mathematics of rotating things can apparently be very complex even for experts. I recently came across the case of Eric Laithwaite, a leading British engineer who claimed to have discovered a failure of conservation of energy in a gyroscope, but was found to have used inaccurate approximations in his calculations, persisted in claiming he'd found something real, and basically his career came to an end.[7] --Annanoon (talk) 21:11, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Are there any scientific explanations for accurate “out of body experiences” when on the operating table?

A lot of people seem to use the supposed fact that people claim remember vividly what was happening during a life saving surgery with surprisingly detail as “proof” of afterlife. I was just wondering if there have been any more coherent explanations as to why this happens. I read the skeptoid episode about near death experiences and apparently, as an experiment, cards were placed in the operation room to check the out of body memory of the patient and no one was ever aware of them. That should be telling, but what I find odd is people claiming what was happening during the surgery and it actually being accurate. So, are there any more scientific theories about this rather than jumping the shark and saying “afterlife”?

Skeptoid episode in question also: https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4261–WMS (talk) 14:48, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

My understanding is that brains do weird things when they are under that kind of extreme stress and that in some cases that will take you to something which is profound to you. Be it Muslim Christian or whatever. Here is a report about someone who went to the Star Trek Universe as his near death experience.
With regards to the "hidden cards" experiments my understanding is that they haven't worked. But I don't have a link.
It's all pretty unconvincing.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:59, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
There is a strange kindness that evolution accidentally gave us. When your brain starts dying, it accidentally releases a flood of serotonin, the "feel-happy" chemical in your brain, creating what is essentially the best orgasm you've had combined with all the cocaine. The brain often processes this as a bright white light, which would explain "heaven". CorUser (brawl) 16:27, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Just wanted to point this out, but even if there wasn't a scientific explanation for OOEs, it still wouldn't be evidence for the supernatural. That would require evidence on the theists' part. Remember "I don't know" is always a valid option if no viable alternatives exist. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
It is possible to trigger out of body experiences with certain "recreational pharmaceuticals"; moreso than the classic serotonin acting psychedelics, ketamine and others in the "dissociative" class such as dextromethorphan or methoxetamine seem prone to the phenomenon. These drugs work on the GABA systemWikipedia in the brain -- they are NMDA antagonistsWikipedia. One phenomenon of this class seems to be to increase glutamate levels; this is anti-depressive in nature and is one of the things people are looking into to develop new anti-depression medication with. Googling some news in this direction led to a not even year old article about how a team of scientists simulated an out of body experience on a person who suffered from epilepsy via electricity alone after observing brain patterns of mice on ketamine.
None of this is conclusive of anything by any means, but initial data suggests that the mechanism certainly isn't supernatural in origin. Rather, it's something that has evolved in our brain for an as yet unknown reason. We're nowhere near the answer to why, but we're a wee bit closer to the answer to how. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Brace for the McAfee conspiracy theories

John McAfee was found dead in his Spanish prison cell just hours before authorities there approved him to be extradited to the US to face tax evasion charges. They say he committed suicide, but in 2019, McAfee said that he thought the government was getting ready to kill him and got a tattoo on his arm saying "$WHACKD" to show that if he dies it wasn't because he killed himself. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 20:00, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I already protected the article. I don't expect that to stop them, just slow them down. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Are we sure that's McAfee's body and not some elaborate plot involving a number of Hollywood prop designers and one particularly attractive pig? CorUser (brawl) 20:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
That tweet I linked already has Clinton body count people swarming it. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 20:38, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
The Clintons brazenly killed Jeffrey Epstein and now they have killed John McAfee. They have a lot of chutzpah. Who are they going to kill next? Donald J. Trump? If they kill Trump, you heard it here first.Brozozo (talk) 21:14, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Can you provide a source for that? UShistoryanalyzer (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
It was a joke. Maybe my dark humor is a bit too dry for you. For example, Donald Trump is protected by the secret service.Brozozo (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Oh dear. Don't unlock the page about him for a while, there's going to be a literal locust swarm of conspiracy theorists purporting that he was somehow murdered.~April 21:25, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
What will certainly be interesting is how Conservapedia responds to this, namely RobSmith. UShistoryanalyzer (talk) 21:27, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
He's... blocked. CorUser (brawl) 21:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm referring to how RobSmith may react on Conservapedia, not on RationalWiki. Perhaps I should've specified that initially to avoid confusion. UShistoryanalyzer (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
It's hilarious how a vile piece of shit like Macafee and Epstein for that matter, seem to get a whole raft of half wits and the gullible chiming on about a conspiracy and yet never seem to have any clues about real conspiracies involving a government and murder. By way of example, look at the Daniel Morgan case in the UK, murdered 34 years ago, repeatedly investigated and the case collapses, it involves Southern Investigations (of the News of the World phone hacking scandal.) and now also has the head of the Metropolitan Police under constrain and investigation. But, hey where's the fun in that when a vile piece of shit dies in a prison cell. Cardinal Chang (talk) 23:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
There's more shit, because of course there is... Always more fucking shit... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Qanon has managed to incorporate pretty much everything conspiracy related-the faithful also share demographics with the kookier libertarians and crypto fans like McAfee. It makes sense some have incorporated his death into their mythos.
Remember when Qanon was just a face saving means of explaining the Mueller investigation?-Flandres (talk) 01:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
I remember when this crap was just another anti-Hillary conspiracy theory back in 2015-2016... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:59, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────McAfee snuck back into the US, impersonated a guard and strangled Epstein. 'Epstein' in prison turned out to be an impersonator. The real Epstein snuck into Spain and impersonated a guard to strangle McAfee. There. I just turned the conspiracy up to eleven.Wikipedia Bongolian (talk) 06:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Imma be real here, I 100% think that McAfee killed himself but set this shit up to make himself look like a martyr. The Q post all but confirmed it for me. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 09:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
It seems plausible given his great desire for fucking people over (murder, rape, pump-and-dump, tax evasion). Bongolian (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
It also gives him a sort of "infamy" I guess-he was always the sort of guy who liked attention grabbing stunts. Rather than get a functionally life sentence for financial crimes (given his age) he gets to make himself a sort of legend.-Flandres (talk) 17:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
This seems plausible because McAfee is peak technogrifter. His ego doesn't even escape him in death. Theace (talk) 18:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Something disturbing about the Michigan special education system

Several years ago me and my mom were picking up my brother from the glorified hamster wheel run by incompetent bureaucrats special needs school he went to.

Now here is the disturbing part. As the students were either waiting for family to pick them up or getting on the bus, I struck up a conversation with one of the students. I don't remember exactly how the topic of civil rights came up but I mentioned that he had the same civil rights as everyone else, he was surprised and he responded, "I have civil rights"?

Obvious to me that there are plenty in the special education system who intentionally keep the idea of civil rights aware from mentally challenged people.

Another disturbing thing I came across (from the same school): one time I was at the store and a class from the school is being taught to shop. There was this one person in the class who I had interactions with a few different times. He is non-verbal and has a profound learning disability. I merely said hi; the one teacher rudely tells me "He doesn't talk".

As for the second one, you can say hi to somebody even if they cannot talk. Non-verbal people have their ways of communication and this person being a special needs teacher obviously would know that. --Boterham (talk) 00:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

anti vax scum

my nephew was given an anti vax leaflet handed out to him by some fucking anti vaxxer sack of shit out side his fucking school. no fucking shame. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:23, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I often wonder wonder how the anti-vax brigade feel about polio (which has a 95% asymptomatic rate.) or tetanus. Do they think polio wasn't all that bad? Or that tetanus is something you can merely walk off? Cardinal Chang (talk) 10:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
I've encountered a fair few loons who'll flat out deny germ theory, and argue that the eradication of smallpox and polio can be explained by higher living standards (better nutrition & sanitation, etc). If they start hyphenating dis-ease, that's usually your signal to buckle up tight and prepare for the crazy. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 11:31, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
The anti-vax conspiracy brigade are generally not affected by such things as evidence. Once they get into that mindset it's difficult to get them out - every piece of data is simply used to show that it's what "they" want you to think. A couple of weeks ago I was in a local cemetery and I met a guy who works there. He maintained that, as he personally had not had a lot of extra work recently, the pandemic did not exist. I had graphs about the death rate in India on my phone. He told me they were fake. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:10, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Anti-vax part 2

There is a difference between 'anti-vaxers per se (perhaps 'that' image on the Wikipedia page on smallpox with 'do you want your kid to look like that?' is a counter-argument) and 'the hesitant and similar (the AZ vaccine and women in a certain age group etc, there being alternatives) etc' (they are willing but cautious). Anna Livia (talk) 18:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh please, "the hesitant" is just a cover for anti-vaxxer. It's one thing to be hesitant about the COVID vaccines when they first came out because there was no time for any safety studies to be performed, but we know how safe the MMRV, DTaP, Gardasil, etc, vaccines are. Anyone refusing to get their kid vaccinated against Diphtheria is effectively committing child abuse. CorUser (brawl) 19:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
@CorruptUser It's actually not. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
kids arent even being vaccinated where i am and no decision has made yet to do so. amongst the bullshit in the leaflet handed to my nephew, and i repeat - outside of a school, its telling them they are about to be vaxxed as they are already doing in manchester. they are not and they have not in manchester either. it pure lies designed to scare kids with a threat of the government coming to force to them to make dangerously unsafe medicine, and then to work on their parents and family with that fear - 'i dont want you take that nasty poison grandma'. this is not hesitancy this is vile and dangerous scaremongering from cunts. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:05, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Any links or contact deets on the leaflet? Various options for inflicting some (legal & non-violent) RL consequences on these mooks, and I'm game. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 21:22, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
not personally seen it but i am told its 'safer to wait'. cant seem to find it on line. i dont believe its full of skulls or overtly dom laden imagery or language. there is a twitter hashtag. not my nephews school btw, they are at all over and not just these cunts. some have been quite aggressive, not letting kids pass unless they take a leaflet. there are go fund me campaigns set up for the safer to wait pricks. i couldnt find anything on the legality of distributing leaflets outside of a school specifically. i would hope is school is dealing with thatAMassiveGay (talk) 22:36, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Interesting

Ha, it seems that I have been included in a recent pointless poll. Good grief. How am I more likely to have done the evil deed than the angry goat? It's simply preposterous! Preposterous I say!Crazymantis91 (talk) 20:07, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

no you havent. log out and look againAMassiveGay (talk) 20:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
It's the {{USERNAME}} template, Anonymous user. Not really sure if I should or should not continue creating polls with that template. CorUser (brawl) 20:11, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Whoops! My mistake. Crazymantis91 (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Not having to live

To preface this if you are going to comment about this being mental illness or depression then just shut up ahead of time.

I found that the root cause of my problems with life is sort of being trapped in life. A while ago I realized that I didn’t have to live life or do any of the stuff people said that made it worth living. Unfortunately there isn’t such a thing as a painless suicide and trying to ask anyone to off you lands you in a mental ward. Thing is that many of the things people say that make life worth living are boring to me. Because once I saw I didn’t have to do all that it just sort of lost any importance to me. Now I just want this life to end because I have no interest in it at all, but without a way out the most I can settle for is just trying to remain what passes for comfort until death. I’m just tired of people saying it’s worth living (it’s not to me) or that im depressed (which im not, well not about what they would think is the reason anyway). I know talking about it doesn’t bring a solution but I wanted to get my thoughts out there.Machina (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

800-273-8255
It's free. They are also really lonely, do them a favor and just say hello, it'll make their day. CorUser (brawl) 20:33, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
I told you to not comment if that’s your post.Machina (talk) 20:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
@Machina What specifically have you grown weary of? You can move this conversation to my talkpage if you want. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:36, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
All of it. Mostly that if your bored or not interested in it people don’t let you just die. We are so ofput by death that we can’t accept that some people just want to leave.Machina (talk) 20:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
@Machina Have you paid attention to me at all? I'm openly cynical and fatalistic. I openly view death as the ideal state of being, that is to say, non-consciousness. I openly express distaste and fatigue at the state of the world. You're telling someone who openly has expressed a desire to die, multiple times, that "people view death as so scary!" Really? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 00:06, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
I suffer from pretty bad depression myself, and I often feel unmotivated and aimless. But keeping with the spirit of your post, I’ll just tell you to get the fuck over it and suck it up. Hardly anybody else feels a special meaning in life. You’re not any better than the rest of us to need one. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 22:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Actually, I'll come back to this because I don't think I've expressed how tired I am of these narcissistic bullshit posts. I don't like to talk about it, but I've dealt with suicidal urges for much of my life, and I even got really close to following through with an intentional overdose. You know what I did? I got help. I certainly didn't act like a fucking bitch when people told me I had a problem or advised me to seek help. I'm still having to fight through it.
You don't think your life has meaning? Fine. Do something about it and find a meaning for yourself. Find an activity you like, or volunteer somewhere, or join the military. Or you can do nothing but sit around. I won't look down on you for the second option, but if that's what you do, at least don't go around pissing and moaning about hard your life is because you refuse to get off your ass find your own damn meaning. A cosmic force ain't gonna hand you a meaningful life on a platter, and certainly no other person will. You live for yourself or you don't.
But I certainly don't appreciate you trivializing mental illness, and I also roll my eyes at the fact that you expect any kind of thoughtful or sympathetic response from me after you saying that you don't give a shit about anything. So you can get help or don't. If you don't, that's fine. But in that case, don't make it other people's problem. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 01:14, 25 June 2021 (UTC)