Difference between revisions of "RationalWiki:Saloon bar"

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:Not much to say, really. Pretty sure most of us here only care about sending the GOP packing from as many governor's mansions as possible. I want Walker out of Wisconsin, dammit! [[User:ConfusedLiberal|Blitz]] [[User_talk:ConfusedLiberal|(Complaints Box)]] 06:32, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 
:Not much to say, really. Pretty sure most of us here only care about sending the GOP packing from as many governor's mansions as possible. I want Walker out of Wisconsin, dammit! [[User:ConfusedLiberal|Blitz]] [[User_talk:ConfusedLiberal|(Complaints Box)]] 06:32, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 
::Some of us didn't know there was a gubernatorial race in Michigan.-{{User:DiamondDisc1/sig}} 06:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 
::Some of us didn't know there was a gubernatorial race in Michigan.-{{User:DiamondDisc1/sig}} 06:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 
== The guy who is trying to wreck my life over a Rationalwiki page ==
 
 
Hi,
 
 
[[Rome Viharo]] mistakenly thinks I created his Rationalwiki article several years ago (I had no involvement). This Viharo guy, who clearly has mental health issues, has now created a entire website dedicated to stalking me and my family, harassing us and posting tons of lies and wild allegations. He's attaching my real name to his all the defamation he posts to make Google search-engine hits of my name "toxic" (he openly admits this) as well as post about me on 5+ blog/forums - all about his Rationalwiki article he still moans about. Is there any way to solve this and make this lunatic go away? Viharo has written like 100,000 words and numerous articles on me. I don't even know what he's posting, since I've done nothing he accuses me of. Is it all trolling or serious? I would like to say the former, but like I said Viharo is publishing libel and has gone as far as digital stalking that I've had to close other things or tried to protect my identity etc., he's also been emailing me and my family threatening and abusive messages. Example of a delusional misinformation article he wrote on me where I don't know what the hell he's talking about: http://wikipediawehaveaproblem.com/2017/03/flag-waving-with-marilyn-monroe-bridgette-bardot/ As well as this, Viharo has said he's contacted the FBI over his "rationalwiki harassment" despite the fact the only harassment I've observed is him doing this to me over the internet. When I tried to make contact with Viharo and tell him I had nothing to do with his Wikipedia ban or Rationalwiki page, he posted an irrational response then said he was still blaming me for everything. I have already filed an abuse complaint to his website host and since he threatened me with the FBI - I also contacted the police about him harassing me. The weirdest thing is his rage all seems to be about Rationalwiki, when I'm not even the person responsible for his article.[[Special:Contributions/86.14.2.77|86.14.2.77]] ([[User talk:86.14.2.77|talk]]) 23:05, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 
:I'd say step one would be to document as many of those threatening or abusive messages as possible. That's evidence. [[User:Noir LeSable|ℕoir LeSable]] ([[User talk:Noir LeSable|talk]]) 00:26, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 
  
 
== Vimy Ridge 100 Years ==
 
== Vimy Ridge 100 Years ==
  
 
I will be watching the Vimy Ridge 100th anniversary ceremony tomorrow. It was one of Canada's most important moments in World War I.--Cms13ca 23:31, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
 
I will be watching the Vimy Ridge 100th anniversary ceremony tomorrow. It was one of Canada's most important moments in World War I.--Cms13ca 23:31, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:32, 9 April 2017

Saloon bar
WIGO Bar colour.png

Welcome, BoN
This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
Friends.gif For previous conversations, see the automagic barchives.Beer.gif

What is going on?

(talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (hic)

Pointless poll

Spicy food, yay or nay?

Spice is nice!

63

Vote

Can't handle heat, must avoid at all costs.

13

Vote

Should Azureality be the site mascot?

Heck yeah!

43

Vote

That thing is so cool, I love it!

2

Vote

Needs more goat

17

Vote

What am I looking at, and whose hairbrained idea was it to make a frickin' Pokémon our mascot?!?

83

Vote

Who is the better rapper?

Tupac Shakur

21

Vote

Biggie Smalls

19

Vote

Both are equally great

20

Vote

MC Goat

46

Vote

To do list


Holy crap, Jontron's gone off the deep end.

This discussion was moved to Talk:JonTron#Holy crap, Jontron's gone off the deep end..

Rational Limerick Contest

Hey good work, Rationalwikians! Why not collect these into a limerick generator for funspace? Bongolian (talk) 05:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I take that back; is my poetic meter busted or are some of you guys not following the limerick meter? Ronin looks good, but Rev??? Bongolian (talk) 05:35, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I'm the one following the Limerick meter... The sentences of a limerick are supposed to be read out at different speeds, in a non-melodic but strictly paced way, and that means you can only have a certain number of syllables in the different sections of the limerick. All my submissions nail the optimal syllable count (I've balanced them for that) and can be read out loud with a consistent tempo. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
For an example of the optimal limerick pacing (and it's also an excellent limerick), see here . Translation available here. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Good one! Bongolian (talk) 20:16, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
TBH, I'm really so surprised so many people contributed to this. I was not expecting this many people to contribute. RoninMacbeth (talk) 05:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

RoninMacbeth

Kind of self-explanatory. I'll start. Ahem:

There once was a man named Trump,

Who really was kind of a grump.

So he ran for the White House

And the Nazis he did rouse

So now we're all down in the dumps.

Anyone else? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a man named Andy,

Who gave CP bans out like candy.

“The speed of light has decayed

For Earth was made in but days!”

Such statements this man thought were dandy.

I came up with this one walking home from swim practice. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a man named Roko.

Whose theory was thought to be loco.

So LessWrong went in flames,

And Eliezer was shamed

Now nobody mentions poor Roko.

I'm less proud of this one. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:44, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Ikanreed

A man was a highly skilled homeopath

He would mix and dilute in his bath

Only one small problem this lent

There was not one molecule of ingredient

Because this man sucked at basic math

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:41, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I had an infection that turned my skin bright red

I took my chiro's advice and went with alt med

Don't trust Big Pharm

Because what's the harm

And now I'm lying on my death bed

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:52, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

There was this certain theory

About how everything was a conspiracy

And don't trust the news

Because it's run by the Jews

And all these coincidences are eerie

(Sorry for the slant rhyme) ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:00, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

schools will never teach intelligent design

because there's no evidence coming down the line

and complexity irreducible

can't survive the scientific crucible

No matter how much Darwin you quote mine

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:15, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Reverend Black Percy

Dopey FAKE NEWS? Very sad!

I'm the best prez that we ever had!

InfoWars dares to say,

Now the frogs have turned gay,

That Pepe wants to be called Chad!

(My first attempt, I hope the references aren't too obscure) Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The moon is a spaceship IT'S TRUE!!

How could I be misleading you?!

As I fell out of bed,

Landed right on my head,

The truth of the Matrix broke through!!

(Guess who) Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Courageous Freeman-on-the-land,

The judge forced him to take the stand!

Though they had his passport,

He remarked with a snort,

"the REAL me's in Gondwanaland!"

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Tankies will call you "Comrade!"

Say "Stalinism wasn't that bad!"

Just don't point out

That Hegel was a kraut

Or you'll turn them stark raving mad!

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

A long-debunked communist plot,

"The tap water is your garrotte!"

But since things are fine,

Lest you WAKE UP online,

Mike Adams will have written for naught!

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The denier knows his alphabet,

"AGW" means "A lie from Soviet!"

For each science report,

saves his brilliant retort,

"But I'm not even breaking a sweat!"

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Chemtrails must turn people gay,

It's all in that deviant spray!

Some damn plane in the sky,

Must've hit a bullseye,

Cause I can't stop watching men's ballet!

I'm actually a bit proud of this one. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Things hadn't turned out as planned,

When Moses got lost in the sand!

Wandering the desert,

Not so much as a skirt,

But atleast he got quite nicely tanned!

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:57, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Darwin claims "Man is an ape",

But there's one question he can't escape!

It's "Oh, were you there?"

Since his proof is threadbare,

We'll need monkeys transforming ON TAPE!

#ReasonableCreationistDemands Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)'ll

My vote.Gaul Dernitt (talk) 07:15, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

LeftyGreenMario

Do you know the Banana Man

Who tried to find out how life began?

He literally took a slapstick fruit

And proven that scientists don't give a hoot

Aside from laughing as hard as they can!

Mom told her little Deneb

Trust no strangers on the web

But Mom embraced a random meme

That promised could fulfil her autism-free dream

Her kid is now caught in a sick web.

David Gerard

Rational rational rational

Rational rational rational

Rational rational

Rational rational

Rational rational rational

"But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:57, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Good post!--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 04:16, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

There once was a guy that I liked

I took him for being quite bright

He liked all I hated

Our paths seemed post-fated

And I got along fine with my life

Pure love Gaul Dernitt (talk) 06:49, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Rationalzombie94

There once was a creationist

There once was a creationist, he thought his mind was spacious

He preached and preached religion

But nobody listened to the dick

He preached and preached then got an education

He learned and learned to find his God didn't exist

He cried and cried till his spirit died and ended up in Tartarus

The creationist cried and cried when he saw the smirk in Hades's eyes

Hades preached and preached Jesus was only imagination.

The creationist screamed and scream as he was tortured

The creationist was a dick, a dick, a dick he learned

But the pain would never end for the asshole creationist creationist


He was a Nazi who committed murder by proxy

He didn't care if the people were dyin

He created squads of death that took peoples breath

The Nazi by Proxy got trapped in a boxy

With no way out and with out a doubt he was dead sauerkraut.

Okay I am not good with limericks --That Undead Schizophrenic (talk) 21:37, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Good post! Know thyself. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

nobs

There once was a man named Barack

Who had a wife that looked like a jock

One night while they're sleepin'

Under the covers he's peekin'

And said, "My God, I thought it was a sock!"

nobs 03:40, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, that was funny. You get brownie points for that!--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:45, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was guy named Trump

Who could rile people on the stump

To Washington he came

And left it the same

When he ended by drowning in the swamp

nobs 06:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a boy named Ryan

With big ideas a-flyin'

When they told him to fix-it

He said he would nix-it

Now the poor people are cryin'

nobs 06:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a hag named Pelosi

Whose leadership style was lousy

When they tried to replace her

No one would face her

Cause she looked like Bela Lugosi!

nobs 10:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There was an ol' putz named Schumer

Who couldm't shake off the rumor

No matter how hard he tried

Or how loud he cried

He licks the shit off his bloomers

Disclaimer: for NPOV purposes, I struggled hard to come up with a McConnell one. Anybody any ideas to get started? nobs 10:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There was a young man named Bruno

Who said there is one thing I do know

A woman is fine

And a sheep is devine

But a llama is numero uno

There once was a guy named Reince Priebus

Who gave everybody the heebie jeebies

When he tried to cut costs

In healthcare he lost

Now everyone is living on government freebies

There once was a guy named James Comey

Who said Trump was Putin's homey

When they sat him to speak

The country did freak

When they saw he was a Deep State croney

There once was a guy named Bannon

Who had a mouth like a canon

When Trump asked advice

He said "stick to lies"

How to shitcan 'em both everyone's plannin'

Anybody got any ideas for Kellyanne? nobs 16:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Kellyanne would you go on TV?

Tell the press there's much less than they see

Trump's a really good man

Besides the talk in the van

And you're much hotter than the VP

Gaul Dernitt (talk) 07:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a woman named Farkas

Who spoke up when things were their darkest

But what she did say

Could put her away

And made her a walking and breathing carcass.

Here, somebody gimme some help....

There once was a Princess Invanka

And everyone told her 'I wancha'

She had bosoms like...

Smerdis of Tlön

Rising to the challenge

There is a Senator McConnell A foe to things floral and faunal.

Global warning he spurned

So as the world burned

The climate turned more and more saunal.

- Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Onozomg.gif I missed this one, so good! Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:33, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

DiamondDisc1

... ..... ....... ......... ....... ..... ... .

Here's one from old Percy.

Vandals on here take a risk,

This sysop might give them a frisk!

He unbuckles his belt,

And the damage is dealt,

"You WILL stare at my fucking disc!"

Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Good job RBP :p-DïämöńđDïsc1 (talk) 05:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! ^^ Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Krej

There once was a wizard named Dwight

With extrasensorial sight

But he could not foretell

At least not very well

When others would whirl and say, "Psych!"

There once was an old man named Zeke

Who thought he proved Chinese was Greek

For he could not see

In his boundless glee

That mere engineers must be meek.

Online, some dork bio class flunkees

Said, "We're not descended from monkeys!"

But to their dismay

RW came

And showed that their claims were all funky.

There are those who talk about aliens

And declare they're pure-blood Albanians

"The Earth is thus ours,

Since we are from Mars."

So they say, those crafty Albanians.

These weirdos are all contradictory

And argue oh so very bitterly

They say, "He's a crook!"

"No, he is, just look!"

And always do love to claim victory.

They say you can heal with hand-waving

It's cosmic and full-of-light bathing

But your hands get so hot

You could slice a steel pot

And you yourself might need some saving.

There is a great man with charmed hands

With powers from far distant lands

He can heal you like that

Before you can say, "Drat!

"A steep price he truly commands!"

You can't use your dreams to predict

The nonsense that fate will inflict

They do threaten you

With so many clues

But which are supposed to be picked?

A Russian did once try to mull,

"Just look at this old monkey skull!

"This surely does prove

"(And doubters does move)

"That Russians must savages cull."

Certain Turks are quite a strange lot

They will babble lots of dumb rot

They'll say, "We're the sun!

"You better not run!"

It's the only pride that they've got.

There once was a doctor named Ludwig

Who made up a tongue he could rule with

Its rules were so random

That everyone panned them

And nobody would deign to use it.

--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 04:14, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

IF a Winner is Decided

Seeings as it is a "contest..." I say we are post-beat limericists (give me cancer now God) and so beats don't matter but RBP has my vote.

So I participated at best

I was oft taught in verse to invest

Got homeschooled by Percy

Y'all did great but srsly

Perce won it and kept it in jest

Gaul Dernitt (talk) 06:27, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

The winner will be decided after the contest is closed by a pointless poll. It closes April 1, midnight, UTC. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:37, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Could there be a limerick page for these (rather than have them disappear into the limbo of Saloon Bar archives)? 31.51.113.230 (talk) 12:20, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

^ Good idea! I suggest: Essay:Limericks. FuzzyCatPotato of the Equivalent Hailstones (talk/stalk) 06:22, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

More philosopher pages?

As we don't have set pages for Sartre, Derrida, or Gadamer, would you guys like me to make them? I can go through and rework a lot of the philosopher pages too if you'd like (like I did with Machiavelli).

Also, has anyone else seen this site? What are your opinions on it? It looks a liiiittle (read:very) crank-y to me. Anim (Carfa) 12:38, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

That would be great!
As for the site you linked to, I didn't have time to go over much of it. I do object to the idea of separating "beginner-thinkers" (read: people who disagree with me) from their philosophy. I also read the essay, 'Truth and I'; the author seemed to brush some major problems in epistemology under the rug. No actual attempt was made to address Gödel's incompleteness theorems or quantum mechanical uncertainty, these thoughts are simply dismissed as "irrational". So yes, this site does seem crank-y to me. Samstr (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
I think that adding a lot more qualitative analysis of philosophy is an awesome idea, BUT just remember that RationalWiki is not an encyclopedia.
We cover any topic in order to catalogue, debunk, refute and correct.
With that in mind, we could certainly use coverage of more woo-laden philosophy:
  • A critical eye on mathematical platonism (as opposed to mathematical fictionalism), number mysticism and numerology generally.
  • A critical eye on ALL philosophies that clash with naturalism
  • Critical coverage of Hegel, the God-Emperor of modern Woo
  • Expansion of criticisms on the postmodernists, critical theorists, Lacanians and deconstructionists
  • Criticisms of Jungian nonsense
  • Criticism of New Age/"Eastern" thought
  • Expanding our criticisms of religious apologetics + explaining why all logical "proofs for God" fail
  • Criticism of the philosophical claims of Intelligent Design (aka William Dembski's work), e.g. their vague concept of "informatics"
  • Criticism of the great scientists who have mistakenly said "philosophy is no longer needed" (Hawking, Krauss, etc)
  • More coverage of the philosophy of skepticism (and its many tools), e.g. Shermer's Last Law, various razors, abduction/inference to the best explaination, etc
  • Updating and improving our list of logical fallacies (i.e., concepts in analytic philosophy)
  • More clear differentiation between formal and informal fallacies
  • Explaining why logical positivism fails completely
  • Criticism of Schopenhauer for his vehement misogynism + general refutations of philosophers often cited by MRA/MGTOW groups + criticisms of misogynist writings in the history of philosophy and theology
  • More critical coverage of the shitty portions of radfem theories, e.g. Andrea Dworkin in cahoots with conservative bigots (fail) vs sex-positive, LGBT-inclusive feminists (win), stuff like false consciousness, power plus prejudice, etc
  • Expanded criticisms of Stalinists, Maoists, Juche, etc = intentionalists generally, who fail to userstand both Hegel and Marx
  • Expanded criticisms of Objectivism, vulgar libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism and things like praxeology and homo economicus
  • Criticisms of the woo-laden portions of romanticism
  • Expanding our coverage on why the Enlightenment, coffee houses, "fraternite liberte egalite" matters
  • Refutations of Swinburn and the substance dualists
  • Criticism of fluoride cranks' bioethics claims that fluridation constitutes forced mass medication (it's doesn't)
  • Criticisms of the anti-psychiatry movement + criticisms of Hubbard's writings (Scientology)
  • Criticisms of STRONG social constructionism + criticisms of "ABSOLUTE objective knowledge" (as both are anti-science woo)
  • Criticisms of both naive realism and anti-realism
  • More on the philosophical problems with time travel
  • More on bio-ethics (e.g. criticisms of PETA + anarcho-primitivism/hard greens + woo portions of Deep Ecology), defense of cloning/stem cell research/abortion/in-vitro fertilization, etc
  • Criticisms of the (imo moronical) simulation hypothesis
  • Criticisms of Kurzweil's "Singularity"
  • Criticisms of Plato (where applicable), e.g. his anti-democratic arguments, his absolute knowledge/form theory, expanded coverage of Atlantis woo generally
  • Expanded positive coverage of Epicurus and the Ionian tradition
  • Explaining further why Kuhn's paradigms don't mean half of what anti-science woomeisters think they mean
I'm sure I left a lot of stuff out, but basically, this is the stuff I was able to retrieve from my "mental to-do list" at at moment's notice.
From the viewpoint of 21st century analytic philosophy, there is thankfully MUCH shoddy philosophy to warn against.
From the top of my head, the above is a list of some of what we could do for philosophy as skeptics. 14:55, 30 March 2017 (UTC)Reverend Black Percy (talk)
Schopenhauer is being read by MRA types? Perhaps there is hope for the world. Been meaning to start an article on Schopenhauer some time now, but I must admit that I agree with his thought in broad outline. He was the first major philosopher to conclude that people are not beings with rational souls, but biological organisms obeying instinctual imperatives. At any rate, I agree that many of these things should be covered. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:59, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
Not just MRA types... "Better" still:
You can't blame Schopenhauer for who adopts his views, but he is indeed a literal God to them. Their choice of words. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:54, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
Schopenhauer's opinions on women are often more about his biography than his philosophy; women done him wrong, starting with Mom. And he occasionally has a point, even as similarly strident critiques of masculinity sometimes do. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 03:52, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
What about stronger criticism of Utilitarianism, Solipsism, Stoics, Nihilisim, and Existentialism too? Is Futurism still considered a philosophy? Hollow (talk) 23:49, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Infinite IP bans

There have been several permanently blocked IP addresses. I personally think that this should not happen in the future, especially in regard to blocks that ban account creation. Instead, future blocks, even for the worst offences, should have a length of at most 10 years, and the current infinite blocks should be reduced to 10 years or less. KOMF 00:46, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

I thought it was a rule that we don't permaban IPs for those reasons. RoninMacbeth (talk) 01:03, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it's considered a rule. My understanding of it is: never block IP's for more than 3.6 days, but don't be afraid to block them for 3.6 days either (assuming that whatever the block reason is, it's a warranted block). 3.6 days is not long, and it's incredibly easy to return under a different IP even for a non-troll. As such, don't feel that 3.6 days is overkill — it hardly ever is — but to counterbalance that point, make sure to never block IP's for longer than 3.6 days, either. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:10, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Can I change the infinite bans to 5-year ones, then? KOMF 02:36, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Slightly offtopic: some trolls on this wiki thought is was wise to use Tor. Therefore, some exit node IPs give a ban message while editing on the wiki. Banned exit nodes are only encountered once in a blue moon, however, I don't think it's great to IP ban users that use Tor because not all people who use privacy software are evil. However, it's not like people can have the foreknowledge of knowing who has a Tor IP.—チーズバーガー • めん Spinning-Burger.gif (talkstalk) 02:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
IP blocking Tor exits? Really? Here's reasons why blocking Tor IPs are pointless:
  1. Ban evading is easy as shit. All you have to do is click "New Identity" on the onion icon. It's only present a mere inconvenience. There's a plethora of tor exits to use.
  2. RationalWiki's spam filter blocks Tor IP addresses so the anons will get caught in that. The anons in question may have gotten lucky with a new exit node, this is rare. Or the spam filter was different or nonexistent back then.
  3. Blocking Tor IPs hurts users who use Tor who have no malicious intent.—チーズバーガー • めん Spinning-Burger.gif (talkstalk) 02:53, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
We had to do it because of persistent bot vandalism via TOR (and similar things) a few years back. Don't sell the umbrella just because it's stopped raining. 159.15.128.172 (talk) (Sophie) 12:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

On those 'little wikis' where I have admin rights I block 'minor look-at-me-ism' IPs for a month and 'offensive' for longer. This will (theoretically) deter the nuisances but also allows reasonable IP users to contribute. 31.51.113.230 (talk) 10:14, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Particularly troublesome ones can be banned longer IMO. As Sophie notes, don't sell the umbrella just because it's stopped raining - David Gerard (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Naked references are ugly and I hate them

A lot of editors, even experienced ones, are guilty of creating naked references. This is a plea to stop doing it. I have added this to the Manual of style page to assist anyone who wishes to reform(at):

  • ✘Do not use plain html references. They are naked and ugly and they don't tell the reader much.
  • This: <ref>http://www.mediaite.com/online/alex-jones-already-calling-orlando-a-false-flag/</ref>
produces this: http://www.mediaite.com/online/alex-jones-already-calling-orlando-a-false-flag/
  • Even worse, this: <ref>[http://www.mediaite.com/online/alex-jones-already-calling-orlando-a-false-flag/]</ref>
produces this (naked and almost invisible): [1]
  • ✔Do use references that have both links and text. This shows the reader where to find the information and also tells the reader what the source of the information is. Sometimes links disappear, and having the title, author and source of the link helps people reestablish contact with a different website.
  • This: <ref>[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25482361 Ethno-medicinal study of plants used for treatment of human ailments, with residents of the surrounding region of forest fragments of Paraná, Brazil] by M. Bolson et al. ''J. Ethnopharmacol.'' 2015 Feb 23;161:1-10. doi: 10.1016</ref>
produces this: Ethno-medicinal study of plants used for treatment of human ailments, with residents of the surrounding region of forest fragments of Paraná, Brazil by M. Bolson et al. J. Ethnopharmacol. 2015 Feb 23;161:1-10. doi: 10.1016

Bongolian (talk) 03:16, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

This format fits with the second point, and it works well: [author name] (date of publication), external link with page title as the link name, date retrieved.
i.e. Mario, M. (March 10, 1981). RationalWiki Goats. Retrieved June 6, 2006.
--It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 04:11, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
I certainly hate seeing little blue numbers in references. In my opinion, bare URLs look slightly better than the little blue numbers. Only slightly better, though. I would prefer all references to be given a proper title instead of just the bare URL. Mind you, making it a rule creates a hell of a lot of cleaning up that's going to need to be done.Spud (talk) 06:03, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
It's not a rule; it's part of a style guide. Though I think the Cover story articles in particular should not have naked references. Bongolian (talk) 08:14, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Probably not, but I also wouldn't bend backward to unfeature articles just because references are poorly and lazily formatted. The question, who is willing to parse through those links and reformat them all? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 23:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
On occasion people are operating in a hurry/decide to put the material on the page and come back to it but do not (there was a medieval manuscript in a museum which still had a note in a blank space to that effect by the original author) or other complications set in (Monday-itis anyone?) 86.146.100.80 (talk) 13:10, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll try to go back through my articles and fix my references (I'm super guilty of this one hehehe) Anim (Carfa) 14:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you, LeftyGreenMario. One effort of moving articles to cover stories should be cleaning up references. Existing cover stories that get naked references added later should get cleaned up quickly. Bongolian (talk) 18:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Others who are more ambitious can add author names, dates, etc. but a link and the source name (e.g. this: Alex Jones Already Calling Orlando a ‘False Flag’ Mediaite.com) quickly makes a useful citation. Leuders (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm guilty. Bongolian, may I repent? FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 06:22, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes of course, FCP! Bongolian (talk) 07:05, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

As perhaps the lead suspect

...I know I can be quite guilty of using naked refs at times. And first of all, let me just say that the above manual of style addition was a wonderful idea!

And Bongolian, I'm always grateful for your excellent edits, including your diligence in filing out refs. Th hug.gif

And I will try to do better — I will.

BUT.

I will argue the following, as an editor with ADHD:

If the choice stands either between:

  • Making a much-needed, quality addition referencing a solid source and pasting it as a naked ref

...or:

  • Not making the contribution at all

...then the former seems, to me, obviously favorable.

Indeed, a feature of wikis is that things can be polished up later.

Now, admittedly — it's WAY more efficient if the original editor just has everything in place from the get-go.

But for the times when it CAN'T all be in place from the get-go, lest we lose the entire edit (due to editor ADHD/lack of time/mobile editing/etc), just submit your edit anyways and (we'll) fix it later.

Again, though — I'll try to do better. As should everyone, because Bongolian has a point. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Percy. You also have some good points. Bongolian (talk) 03:00, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

The heart of the matter

Where did the Trump-Russia/Obamagate drama begin? Here's a clue: the Magnitsky Act of 2012Wikipedia, sponsored by John McCain. Signed into law by Barack Obama .Brought up for revisions in June 2016. Lobbied against by Ken DubersteinWikipedia, former Reagan Chief of staff, and Fusion GPS, authors of the Steele dossier (the pee-pee memo) alleging Trump ties to Russia. You may recall when the Magnitsky Act was passed Russia retaliated by banning adoption of Russian children by Americans. The bill allowed the President to issue sanctions against certain Russian governmental officials and institutions he may designate. Russia in turn banned a list of Americans, as well. Among them Preet BhararaWikipedia.

This act can be interpreted as a provocation among some within the United States national security establishment to start a new Cold War. Hence the US national security establishment has been divided against itself since the Russian intervention in Georgia in 2008 over this issue. The hawks, McCain, Obama, Hillary, and the predominant mood of the Intelligence Community (Brennan, Rogers, Clapper Matthis, McMaster) against the doves, Duberstein, Rohrbach, Trump, Mike Flynn and others opposed. This, at heart is the issue. nobs 07:18, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

As to FusionGPS & Christopher Steele: it is undetermined yet if FusionGPS, which was on the KGB payroll, knew that its employee Christopher Steele was at the same time on the FBI payroll. This outfit are bit players in the scheme. Steele is only an E. Howard HuntWikipedia-type figure and not a credible witness. FusionGPS played both sides of the fence, the Kremlin side and the US Intelligence Community, and took 'em both for their money. That's what they do. They are professionals at it. Exposing their duplicity undercuts the whole Trump-Russia narrative, and lays open the wider motivations of both sides, the Cold War hawks (the US Intelligence Community) versus the Cold War doves (Putin and Trump). And the IC's big fear is once the public understands what's at stake, they will naturally be inclined to side with the doves. Who know's what stunt they are willing to try next? They're overcommitted at this point. The best way to stave off some disaster right now is for Trump to show some leadership and come to an accommodation with the IC. IOW, become a hawk, and put off any hopes for detente til a second term. Nixon did. Jack Kennedy never made it that far. nobs 12:11, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
So Trump's on board with the anti-Russian warhawks. He is now launching cruise missiles at his KGB paymasters in the Kremlin. He shitcanned Flynn per the CIA's wishes (Tillerson is the next to go). The CIA robbed him of the traditional honeymoon afforded new presidents. Can we let it begin now that the leftist/progressive anti-Putin crowd have drawn First Blood? nobs 06:23, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Florentin Smarandache

I saw this name in the log with the mention "deleted page" (I post here because I don't know where to discuss this). The name sounded amusing so out of curiosity I did a quick search, and according to this discussion (reddit) he seems to be a real mathematician living at the border between ok and not. If you believe his ResearchGate profile, his skills and expertise include pretty much everything. His work is referenced multiple times on MathWorld, for instance the Smarandache Paradox: "if all is A, then the non-A must also be A". The discussion page on Wikipedia fr (his English Wikipedia page was deleted) suggests that he is not accepted by mainstream mathematicians; elsewhere, people have pointed out mathematical errors in his work; it looks like he rarely gets past peer review so he mostly self-publishes. On what I assume is his official page, he is described as leading the "paradoxism" movement, he studies "superluminal and instantaneous physics", and there is also mention of "unmatter" and "Nonnovel". His neutrosophic logic is supposed to generalize everything else, including fuzzy and paraconsistent. According to this he coined the term "Outer-Art" (sample pictures, main page if you think life is too long) which "means to make art as ugly as possible, as wrong as possible, or as bad as possible... and, generally speaking, as impossible as possible!" (another exclamation mark aficionado; I am more of an ellipsis person...)

This is what paraconsistency will do to your brain... Shrug.gif --Cmonk (talk) 15:46, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

If you think he deserves a page here, go ahead and recreate it. The page that was here before kind of hinted that he was a pseudo-mathematician. But it did a piss poor job of that because it was written in language that only a real mathematician could understand. Spud (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

A skeptical resource (that's fucking metal!)

I'm talking about hoax-slayer.net! *headbangs*

But in all seriousness — the great Steven Novella recommended it (admittedly in passing) during one of his audiobook lectures.

The site seems to focus mainly on debunking chain e-mails (i.e., the fake news of the early 2000's) — but regardless, having another Snopes-type resource to cite from isn't bad.

Besides, atleast some of the old Gish gallops and whatnot we deal with have some basis in old chain e-mails.

So, anyone ever heard of hoax-slayer before? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:40, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Lovely. I've used to look at Snopes, but I think this site looks like a good resource as well. Haven't heard of it and I wish I did before being aware of total shit like Breitburp, GnattyNews, and AgeofAWWWWWRRHGHtism. Though I hope it has more than just Facebook scams and obvious fishy crap like "radiation from Mars". --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 00:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
It's pretty good, about comparable with Snopes. I follow it on farcebook. Also, this. 85.234.65.51 (talk) (Sophie) 14:29, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Has Jerry Coyne become an anti-psychiatry crank?

Original topic available here. Thoughts? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

From what I understand, the debate started with this piece in which he mentions a personal experience involving an acquaintance suffering from depression. By comparison, he wrote a year earlier "Of course researchers should continue to compare talk therapies and to determine which, if any, drugs are useful in alleviating depression". Despite his criticism of the DSM, he used it recently to speculate about a famous politician's personality, but added "personality disorders are famously resistant to therapy" which could mean anything, and he used the ambiguous word "ministrations" to describe the activity of psychiatrists. Sometimes, cynicism and distrust take root when the comfort that one expects from mental health professionals is missing in action, because doctors are also flawed human beings. I don't want to speculate too much without knowing what happened, but "crank" may be overstating it since he doesn't seem to be on some active crusade. --Cmonk (talk) 23:50, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Good post! Still, it's tiresome to see someone whose "claim to fame" is being a rationalist go over the same old ground, even once. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:01, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Idea for Biology teachers being forced to teach creationism in public school

(Just a hypothetical) Lets say creationism was shoehorned into public school and Biology teachers were forced to teach it and the principle just said, "Teach creationism as fact"; have a Biology teacher start teaching the creation myth from Japanese mythology or Norse mythology as a form of protest (and to be funny). Yeah or Nay? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Crafty creationist (ID proponents) often propose teaching creation myths from many world religions as a way to make it more palatable. See! We're not just Christian fundies trying to push mythology as fact in public schools! The point to them is not to necessarily paint Christianity as the only possible answer, they care much more about putting doubt in students minds about actual science. Trying to use broad "spirituality" and pointing out the prevalence of some sort of belief in God, as well as creation myths around the world, is becoming more common tactic. Again, not so much to convert people to Christianity but to make kids doubt at an early age and that science is a liar sometimes. So no, it wouldn't be terribly funny, in fact it would be what many creationists already want. Just to have actual science being drowned out by a sea of myths. Hentropy (talk) 22:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Damn those fundies! Taking the fun out of protesting creationism. Well, there is always the back up plan of emphasizing how stupid creationism is? Then again that might not work. I was not even aware of what you mentioned (I read about some IDiot tactics but not all of them).--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:21, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Just start teaching some Qur'anic variety and the Creationists will rush to repeal the law themselves. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:22, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Love the Islamic creationism idea, but I actually remember reading something like this back when intelligent design was first getting press. A Hindu man apparently sent a letter to a newspaper claiming that, if they were gonna give "equal time" to the implicitly Christian intelligent design hypothesis, then they should also give equal time to Hindu creationism. I grew up in a town in northern New Jersey that has a very large Indian American population, so it might have been (not sure) the local Daily Record that published it. Don't remember much beyond that, though. KevinR1990 (talk) 23:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Protest.gif "EQUAL TIME FOR XENU!" Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:28, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
And then the teachers get to the part about us all being in the Matrix. 2d4chanfag (talk) 00:44, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
This discussion needs more pasta. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 01:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Why not just make up a new one, e.g., Satanic Creationism? CorruptUser (talk) 01:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I like the idea of making a myth up. How about- Wafflistic Creationism? The universe is inside one big waffle and the universal waffle was created in the Holy Toaster!--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:48, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
And there is the Great Syrup Flood which trapped the bugs into rocks, which scientists found later. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 02:01, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
That might actually make more sense than the Christian Great Flood. Don't forget to worship the Goddess Aunt Jemima! This might make a good funspace article.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 02:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Or maybe a religion worshiping me. What? Everyone needs an ego boost once in a while!-DïämöńđDïsc1 (talk) 05:00, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps so, but I got to think of more breakfast related funnies related to creationism, like God likes his waffles with powdered sugar and thus cloaked the landscape with it, but he wanted powdered sugar only when he's cold since it tastes great with hot chocolate, so only wintery landscapes are dusted with fine white stuff. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 05:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
C'mon, there are a billion places to boost your ego, DiamondDisc1! Maybe if you say you're awesome enough times, people will believe you! It worked for our president! --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 05:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe the universe is just a giant pot of beef stew being cooked by God? Our galaxy is just a small piece of baby carrot among pieces of beef, potatoes and other carrots.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:45, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I always appreciated Kant's "mythos"; he once posited that every planet in the universe was populated, with the inhabitants getting more and more moral the further away one got from Earth (in all directions)... Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:48, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I've always preferred H. P. Lovecraft's mythos, where inquiry into the nature of reality always leads to a truth so hideous it's always fatal to the sanity of its discoverer. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 04:51, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Inquiry into the nature of H. P. Lovecraft's viewpoints leads to a hideous truth. Maybe the universe is just a buildup for our last joke. --Cmonk (talk) 05:01, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
<><><><><><><>-<><><><><> (talk) 05:37, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Sweet JESUS! Check out this ad for the Laser Grid GS1 Ghost Detection System

This is so fucking dumb. I mean, truly a RARE level of stupid.

I'm not even going to prep you for the ad. I'm just going to throw you at it, and I'll hear your comments when you emerge on the other side. But MAN is this dumb.

And yes, this is a real ad for a real product of a real company.

Their product bio for the Laser Grid GS1 Ghost Detection System claims the following:

NEW Laser Grid That Changes Everything! Imagine being able to map out everything you wanted to know about the physical aspects of a ghost or any anomaly that passes in front of you. Well now you can! This new laser grid system can tell us speed, dimensions and even help us make a 3D model of the anomaly. Utilizing a line grid pattern this laser system gives us more information than ever before. While dots as used by other systems are helpful in determining visual disturbances, lines can help us measure much, much more!

Just place the laser grid in an area projecting onto a solid surface. For best results, set it next to a video camera. Any anomaly with significant enough mass that passes in front of the laser will cause a visual disturbance in the pattern. With enough mass, the anomaly will reflect back a different pattern, bowing the lines along the surface of the anomaly. This reflected surface pattern will allow you to map out the anomaly in 3 dimensions - something never before done in the paranormal field. This unit includes an on/off toggle switch and a tripod mount for setting on any standard tripod.

Features

  • PATENTED System to Easily Detect Motion and Visual Disturbances Even In The Dark
  • Helps Measure Dimensions, Shape, Speed and 3-Dimensional Mass of any Visual Anomaly
  • Tripod Mount On Bottom of Unit for Easy Directional Placement (tripod not included)
  • Bright Red Laser Grid Lines Can Be Seen On Most Cameras (we especially recommend a Full Spectrum camcorder for the best quality)
  • Toggle On/Off Switch For Extended Use
  • Adjust the spread however you want by setting your own distance from the subject with a 1'/1' ratio. 12' distance from the subject results in 12' diameter, 4' distance results in 4' diameter.
  • Lasts Over 20 Hours On 2 AA Batteries

Is it even legal in the US to bullshit this hard?! How many total lies/misconceptions are IN this ad? Help me count, because my brain is seriously hurting from all this Facepalm Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:42, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

They're quite careful in protecting themselves legally. All of the claims made aren't really out right false, they're just saying what the thing does. It doesn't say you'll be able to see ghosts for sure, it just says it might help you see them if they are there. And if they're never there because they don't exist, then the claim isn't really flasifiable. Illegal false advertising would be if it didn't come with a tripod mount even though it says it does. Hentropy (talk) 00:30, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
But they are lying! It seems to me, they claim (or strongly imply) that this device is some type of scanner — that it measures things or collects data. But in fact, I'm about 99.8% sure that it's just a glorified laser pointer! I mean, take a look at the device again.
It runs on 2 regular AA batteries (for "over 20 hours" nonstop) and features no ports or calibration buttons. All it has is an analog ON/OFF switch and a battery loading dock similar to that of any old TV remote.
And when they talk about 3D models and the likes, all they're really saying is someting akin to "if you FILM the grid sent out by our oversized laser pen with an actual camera, go to somebody with any old modeling program and show that person the video — they could sorta try to just offhand what they see in the video you filmed with your camera". That's a less obfuscated version of what they're really saying.
The product decription literally claims it helps to measure "dimensions", speed and "3-Dimensional Mass" (???). The FTC needs to step up their game if this isn't considered pushing it, legally. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
It's annoying bullshit obviously, but legal. They claim that the device "helps" you map out stuff, not that it does it all by itself. Words like "mapping", "scanning", "measuring" are very broad terms. A flashlight (or laser pointer) can be considered a "scanner" in a dark room. I do believe construction workers do use laser grids like these to measure things (the thing is probably just a normal laser projector used in other trades that has been rebranded). Using broad language and not making specific claims about the efficacy of a product is a hallmark of advertising. Particularly the language of "this will help you do something" is a pretty common trick, pretty much every "health" or weight-loss food/product does it. The only way you can falsify that statement is if you can prove that it could never help anyone ever. You also have to consider the entire advertisement and not just a single statement. If they say "this is a mapping device" and later say "it only maps when combined with a camera" then that can be considered okay.
Indeed, there does need to be more consumer protections against false and misleading advertising, but I'm not sure if you'll ever be able to fully stop BS like this, it's best just to encourage people to have a skeptical mind. At least they're not asking you to sink a shitload of money into something that does nothing. Hentropy (talk) 02:06, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Speaking of the crank love of broadness (to the point of absurdity)... On their "sister site", the exact same red flashlight laser device is being promoted as the — get this — UFO and Alien Motion Detection and Mapping Laser System. Facepalm Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:34, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
"DO NOT point lasers into the sky!" Catch them before they take off! I know I probably shouldn't be, but I am surprised that lasers are a common tool for ghost hunters. Meh, what do I know... --Cmonk (talk) 10:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not the least bit surprised they're down with laser toys. Ghost hunters favor any device they can misuse to produce noise (both in the data- and literal sense).
They're not just snapping pictures to document things (e.g. like real crime scene investigators do). Instead, ghost hunters will illuminate dust particles with flash (often purposefully aimed against reflecting surfaces like mirrors), use "night mode" in daytime, remove the IR filters from their cameras, shoot lasers and use long exposures while twirling their cameras about.
They travel in groups, snap a million shots of a million odd angles in super weird lighting conditions, and then go through all of this junk data and keep the pictures most suceptible to pareidolia.
The same goes with their so-called EVP (electronic voice phenomenon). The ghost hunters record hundreds of hours of raw static, to later excitedly sit through every second of playback wearing high-fidelity headphones — trying to mishear the random noise as words (which is why the supposed ghosts always end up saying nonsensical stuff like "cucumber pants" and "who was phone?").
Same again with the ghost hunters' omnidirectional, uncalibrated EMF detectors... The more beeping and spikes, the better! Then add thermal cameras, AM/FM scanners, blacklights, geiger meters, motion detectors and even pseudo-electrical dowsing rods.
Ghost hunting is to 99.9% about the generation of "anomalies", not about actually documenting or measuring anything. Ghost hunting has no signal-to-noise ratio, because the noise is the signal. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Google made an AI to recognize images, and by reversing the system they can generate images from noise (or clouds or anything really). In essence, they make the machine experience pareidolia, and somehow it looks quite good (notice the funny animals). Ghost hunters could use this system to help find the ghost of the crocoduck in their static and prove ghost evolution (I suggest calling that "paleoghosting"). --Cmonk (talk) 11:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Why not just buy the proton pack. Leuders (talk) 13:40, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Good post! Especially considering they unironically sell "Ghostbusters Gear" to the would-be ghost hunters who frequent their site. Facepalm Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:46, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Another bonus of the proton pack is the product description uses plain English: "Gear up with this authentic Electronic Proton Backpack and blaster and let's go ghost hunting! Insert the included glow in the dark mini figure in your blaster and project its silhouette on the walls - see paranormal activity right before your eyes!" Leuders (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I saw "dog fish" and "camel bird" but no crocoduck? I'm disappointed. Christopher (talk) 16:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Speaking of that... Did you see the "Bull-frog" and "Sheep-dog" here? Give the clip about 20 seconds, if not. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
But those animals do exist, even Kirk Cameron must have heard of a bloody sheepdog! Christopher (talk) 17:52, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
At around 29:11 in this debate with Ray Comfort, Matt Dillahunty makes a nice analogy with languages: Italian and Spanish are descended from Latin, but there is no Itanish (he used a different word). Sadly, it didn't make any difference in the end. --Cmonk (talk) 19:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

2016 edits, graphed

Edits:

New pages:

Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 04:36, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Everyone's reaction when they see RBP's edit count.チーズバーガー • めん Spinning-Burger.gif (talkstalk) 05:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The edits by users looks like Zipf's law to me (or at least reminds me of it, though it doesn't exactly follow Zipf's perfectly) Meh (You) 16:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
And so does the new pages by namespace Meh (You) 16:50, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm genuinely distressed by how many of the high edit-count users were banned this year. Too much HCM :-/ ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:25, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
"Let my people go!" Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I am making the transition to E-Cigarettes

I realize that my breathing is bad so I am switching over! I got the Freedom brand E-Cigs and got Margarita flavor juice for it.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:48, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I won't drag you for making progress. My understanding of the research indicates that switching from cigarettes to vaping has correlations with positive outcomes from patients who smoke. It's also apparently a decent stop on the train to quitting entirely if that's a goal. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 18:20, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Well done, RZ! If you haven't already, make sure you check these videos out for some neat facts! Also, if you're struggling to cut out nicotine altogether (or having trouble lowering your nicotine consumption due to cravings), consider supplementing rhodiola rosea for some help along the way. Though if you do, WATCH OUT for adulterated RR supplements (and make sure you get the SHR-5 standardization, as most human studies were done on it). Note that while the nicotine-specific studies are merely preliminary, the neurology studies are not — and they are of interest to anyone trying to cut out nicotine. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I started on e-cigs a few years ago and have never looked back (until recently when I went through a bad bust up with the ex-wife so now I smoke and vape). Acei9 22:41, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I love the flavor except when I (unintentionally) got the juice on my tongue. That burned and tasted awful.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Obligatory

Proposal: Re-purpose the Elections WIGO to Politics

For better or for worse, the Bar has a good share of political discussion. The Elections WIGO is rather moribund since the culmination of last year's Clown car. I propose renaming the Elections WIGO to the Politics WIGO. This will, for example, let us keep the Trump drama out of WIGO World, and make the existing WIGO page more useful and entertaining. What do you think? Regards, Cosmikdebris (talk) 00:10, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I think it makes sense because not all countries have elections, although it won't always be obvious where to put an entry (controversial law, major change in leadership). --Cmonk (talk) 01:38, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, occasionally there has been a Blogs versus Clogs versus World debate, but i trust the mobacracy to sort it out. It should be relatively easy for anyone to judge if a politics-related event is relevant to the world, or if it's of topical interest. People outside the US may not be particularly interested in what some alt-right asshat on Trump's staff is up to, for example. Regards, Cosmikdebris (talk) 01:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm from outside the US and I can't get enough of what the alt-right asshats in the White House are up to. 85.234.65.51 (talk) (Sophie) 08:58, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Trump launches missiles into Syria

The nut has finally done it people!!! He has just started World War 3!!!!! S.H. DeLong (talk) 02:03, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Calm down. We're not even close to "World War 3" for chrissakes. To the contrary, let's hope Trump's connections with the Russians are actually as close and personal as everyone's been saying. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:07, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Good post! Be rational, people. Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:14, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
It won't start WWIII, but it's hard to say anything good will come of it. It would be surprising to me if it was any more than a few strikes, but I think Trump's reputation as a non-interventionist among dovish and libertarian allies is shot. Doing this and then pulling out with no changes to Assad just seems pointless. If anything it might just encourage Assad to do even more brutal things in an attempt to end this thing once and for all. Hentropy (talk) 02:20, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
You are correct, nothing good will come of this. It never does. Regards, Cosmikdebris (talk) 02:25, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I am sorry but I get extremely paranoid about stuff like this, and I feel helpless knowing that I cannot do anything. S.H. DeLong (talk) 02:17, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Earlier today, VP Pence was reported to be hard at work at the White House with a room full of aides while Trump was dining at Mar a Lago. After the missile launch was made public, Trump's statement was packed with phrases like "no child of God should ever suffer" and "we ask for God's wisdom" and "we pray for the souls of those who passed" etc. So at least we know what Pence's job is. Leuders (talk) 03:25, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Even Infowars doesn't like Trump's decision.—チーズバーガー • めん Spinning-Burger.gif (talkstalk) 05:25, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Well the Infowars crowd will just have to suck it up like the rest of us. Our childlike president says and does impulsive things. He found out about Syria while watching TV and got all emotional about the babies. Leuders (talk) 12:41, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Hate to say I told ya so, but... Every day that passes you see his true RINO colors. This is so Clintonesque ... when your approvals are down, fire a cruise missile....nothing like a cruise missile to bring out the true blue in everyone. What's next? The minimum wage? nobs 13:17, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Not to worry nobs. It's likely his administration won't consistently stick to any one ideology. Enjoy. Leuders (talk) 18:20, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Apparently some Russians were caught in the explosions. Can we go back to being tense? Hollow (talk) 03:28, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

It's as likely to start WW3 as Reagan's bombing of Libya would have. However Russia withdrawing from the agreement that American and Russian planes would keep out of each other's way is bit more worrying. Mistakes happen in wars (as, indeed, do "mistakes") and we have a supreme commander with a thin skin and a short fuse. 85.234.65.51 (talk) 09:04, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Russians were at the airbase but there's no confirmation that any were hurt or killed. It would be a sticky situation- but not one that I think would change much about Russia's reaction. Hentropy (talk) 05:14, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'd call it a silver lining, but it is quite amusing that the alt-right is melting down over this, I've watched some of the stuff go down in real time on /pol/, and yeah, they're going bonkers. Not to happy for rather... deplorably racist reasons, but maybe the deplorables finally taking off their stupid red hats will be somewhat positive for the country. Hentropy (talk) 05:23, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Trump's on board with the Deep State neocons. The Trump-Russia/Obamagate scandals are a draw. Everybody relax. You got the Hillary/Obama crowd back in charge. nobs 06:06, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
World War 3 you say. Its about time! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
The big K will be plzed.2d4chanfag (talk) 06:32, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I always figured Trump was aligned with Slaanesh. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:36, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, is it just me, or is it correct to say that Trump notified Russia — but not congress — of his missile strike? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:31, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
@RBP: Like Bannon is aligned with Malal? And it was probably wise to notify Russia, given that Moscow and Damascus are throwing fits over the attack. He still should've told Congress, though. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Bannon and Malal? Also, don't get me wrong — I'm glad that he warned the Russians, as the point wasn't to kill Russians, but to decommision the airstrip that the weasel Bashar has been directing his gassing runs from. I even carefully harbor a certain cautious optimism about the rocket attack itself. But it just struck me as, well, "Trumpy" to hear that he'd made sure to report to the Russians before attacking — though, not to congress. Heh. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I had heard reports that the White House warned senior members of Congress, he just didn't ask them for their permission, which is going to get the more Paulite faction angry. Warning Russia is fairly routine, because like you said, the point was not to kill many people. Hentropy (talk) 18:25, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Tillerson is in Moscau at this moment. nobs 18:44, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Hentropy; it's what they wanted him to do, Democrats, Repunlicans, and the Intelligence Community - the three power centers in DC. Get off his Russia-Putin hobby horse which only he & Flynn were riding. A Trump-Russia investigation is pointless at this point. Like Nixon, Trump will just have to wait til his second term to make overtures to Russia. By then the IC should be behind him. nobs 18:57, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Here's how it'll play out: Listen for McCain to say something like 'he's come around" or "he:s seen the light." Then, with the House investigation nuetered (there was an ethics violation filed against Schiff, too) they'll find a way to bury it. Rice will take the fall for her boss (National Security Mike Flynn served 24 days, National Security Adviser Susan Rice gets to serve 10 years) and they all lived happily ever after. nobs 19:38, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I've missed left-leaning conspiracy theorists so much

It feels good to be vindicated that I still can recognize it when it's "my side." People alleging that a triparty agreement between Syria, US, and Russia to drop chemical weapons, then have the US engage in a vaguely ineffective bombing campaign to prop up Trump's poll numbers is basically just absurd.

In order to believe this, you have to believe:

  • The US couldn't "create" a case for war against any old tinpot dictator they wanted who wasn't the puppet state of the new president's erstwhile secret supporter.
  • Assad would seriously agree to have his military bombed to prop up Trump, no matter what Putin asked.
  • All the general bullshit that goes along with a sweeping conspiracy like this.

I'm very glad that I can see the difference between my having serious objections to credible claims of election tampering partially supported by real evidence presented by those with the wherewithal to uncover it and seeing Russian machinations in every act by a befuddled violent idiot. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 18:48, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think he is "confused" or an "idiot" personally, who knows to what extent he holds the xenophobic views he claims to. But you don't become a billionaire by being stupid (even if you do start of with a small loan of a million dollars). Christopher (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, you do. It takes more financial discipline than some people seem to be able to manage, but I seem to recall that someone did a comparison of Donald Trump's wealth over time compared to a million invested in a market index fund over the course of his lifetime, and the hypothetical index outperformed him. Painful truth: money makes money. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 19:09, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
(ecx2)So what do we learn from this? The next time somebody gets fired from the NSC staff the shit's gonna hit the fan the next day? or is it, Bannon was like Ed Meese overseeing staff transition (likely), or Bannon quit/got fired to minimize leaks and be absolved of planning (equally likely, and slightly moreso). And Chris, fuck you with your xenphobic crap. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. nobs 19:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
I didn't learn anything from this, sad to say. I wouldn't have predicted an air strike against the Syrian military, but... it's not exactly unexpected either. It's just kinda "Yep, that sure is some republican foreign policy right there" ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 19:26, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
No. The national security establishment wants sanctions upheld for Ukraine (Ukraine is the big issue, once Syria is resolved}. The plan Trump ran on - detente with Russia, accept Crimea and Eastern Ukraine a fait accompli, and respect Russia's Near abroadWikipedia, in exchange for Russia easing away from Iran, Syria, and North Korea was vehemently opposed by Hillary & her neocon supporters (Jeb. Chertoff, Papa Bush the list is endless}. That's why Brennan, Obama, and Rice wiretapped him. They vetoed Flynn's security clearance​ which destroyed Trump's foreign policy agenda (Tillerson was only hired to be the messenger boy to Putin from Trump & Flynn; after he tells Putin in Moscow wait three years and look at the situation then, there's no more need for him).
This is a blow to Trump's ego. He's used to being his own man. He, won't be the IC & Transatlantic alliance puppet (like both Clinton's, both Bush's, and Obama were), he has just compromised with them for the remainder of his term to end the fueding. Witness. Henry Kissinger who backed Hillary, attended the meeting with the China boss in Florids to introduce Trump as 'our boy', based on agreements Kissinger negotiated X number of decades ago. nobs 19:55, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh. And here's his job approval index. Let's look at it in 3 days and see how many points 59 cruise missiles are worth maybe we can get LarRon to compile a graph over his term. Here's Bill coaching him how to do it. nobs 20:50, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Suspected terrorist attack in central Stockholm, Sweden

Don't stray too far from the Swedish original reporting for the time being. I'm 40 minutes away from the epicentre; trust me on this one.

Main news post (UPDATING) here.

Additional info:

Things change fast, so stick to the main post above for the time being. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:41, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I gotta say, I'm really happy to see the limited interest in this event (considering that terrorism is a form of psychological warfare, as opposed to material warfare). So far, it's just been Paul Joseph Watson and the crazies who've really picked up on it AFAIK. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:04, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

An Apology

I am sorry about that Trump/WW3 diatribe. I can at times get really nervous and lose my sense of reason and let my passion take control. I offer no excuses for my immature behaviour and once again I apologize. S.H. DeLong (talk) 01:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

No worries, back in February I made a similar post about Trump and WW3. Paranoia got the best of me on that one.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:45, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Apology accepted. Now go to your room. nobs 11:49, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Good post! Kids, listen to our shirtless neighbour. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
A mild case of 'auto-suggestion "Last Trump" pareidolia'-itis: suggested cure a few cute kitten videos. 86.191.125.136 (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Race for Governor (Michigan)

What are your thoughts on the candidates so far? I like Doctor Abdul El-Sayed, I know he is democrat but he would still be better than Doctor Jim Hines (Republican and Creationist who outright rejects evolution).--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Not much to say, really. Pretty sure most of us here only care about sending the GOP packing from as many governor's mansions as possible. I want Walker out of Wisconsin, dammit! Blitz (Complaints Box) 06:32, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Some of us didn't know there was a gubernatorial race in Michigan.-DïämöńđDïsc1 (talk) 06:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Vimy Ridge 100 Years

I will be watching the Vimy Ridge 100th anniversary ceremony tomorrow. It was one of Canada's most important moments in World War I.--Cms13ca 23:31, 8 April 2017 (UTC)