Difference between revisions of "RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation"

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{{ping|Spud}} It has occurred to me that the welcome message could be added in addition to the unwelcome message. So, we regard the unwelcome emblem to be no more than an individual opinion? I wasn't aware. Fine. I recommend discontinuing the practice. It has already been established that there is a dwindling interest in making edits to this wiki. I would rather see users arguing over bad edits, than a continued decline in the number of edits.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 16:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 
{{ping|Spud}} It has occurred to me that the welcome message could be added in addition to the unwelcome message. So, we regard the unwelcome emblem to be no more than an individual opinion? I wasn't aware. Fine. I recommend discontinuing the practice. It has already been established that there is a dwindling interest in making edits to this wiki. I would rather see users arguing over bad edits, than a continued decline in the number of edits.[[User:Ariel31459|Ariel31459]] ([[User talk:Ariel31459|talk]]) 16:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Ariel31459}} No, the Unwelcome template shouldn't really be just one editor's opinion. It should only be put on the talk pages of new users who are clearly going against the community standards. However, we all make mistakes. It is possible that someone could have been too harsh in putting the Unwelcome template on the page of a new user who's maybe been a bit of a pain but hasn't done anything seriously wrong. And we can but hope that new users might change their ways after getting that message. In those cases, it would be possible to give the Welcome message to someone who's already received the Unwelcome message before. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 
:{{ping|Ariel31459}} No, the Unwelcome template shouldn't really be just one editor's opinion. It should only be put on the talk pages of new users who are clearly going against the community standards. However, we all make mistakes. It is possible that someone could have been too harsh in putting the Unwelcome template on the page of a new user who's maybe been a bit of a pain but hasn't done anything seriously wrong. And we can but hope that new users might change their ways after getting that message. In those cases, it would be possible to give the Welcome message to someone who's already received the Unwelcome message before. [[User:Spud|Spud]] ([[User talk:Spud|talk]]) 04:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
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The way I see things: This site has defamatory attacks against numerous well published scientists and their papers that support results that do not conform with the views of the left. (e.g. Richard Haier, Linda Gottfredson, basically all of behavior genetics, etc.). If those attacks were supported with specific dissections of fallacious arguments, it could still represent a positive contribution. But overwhelmingly the logic seems to be: "This person's research could be used to support results I disagree with", and worse: "This person has worked with somebody whose research could be used to support results I disagree with". Such fallacious arguments are anti-scientific, and undermine the good work this site has done on matters like evolution and climate change. If it is OK for RationalWiki to disregard an entire branch of science because of its implications, why can't a creationist do the same. I think the answer is clear: Rational inquiry requires that research and evidence always trump belief. It is never OK to disregard an entire branch of science. This is true even if the branch in question is ultimately proved wrong, as so many past branches have been.
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Much of the argumentation seems to be: "These people are crypto racists, therefore nothing they say matters". But most of these individuals have explicitly declaimed racist and supremacist behaviors, and indeed have long records of behavior which make no sense if they actually held racist views. The study of intelligence, and its heritability or lack thereof is an obviously interesting topic. It hardly requires any racial animus to seek to study it. Even if they were racists (and surely some are), ad hominem is not a valid basis for declaring peer reviewed research to be invalid. The scientific method must prevail even when one side of an argument is represented by somebody truly reprehensible.
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I initially thought that this wiki would be biased against the inclusion of defamatory statements against living people. It is clear at this point that this is not the case. Indeed the path to removing defamatory content without being accused of violating the rules of this wiki is shockingly effort intensive. Before any edit is made, I must contact the previous editors, have a discussion and achieve consensus. In the case of many of these pages, it is clear that the previous editors have extremely strong ideological biases. This is hardly surprising. Defamatory articles come from people with strong views against the defamed. It appears to me that the effect and likely intent of the policies (as enforced) is to retain defamatory content except in the most egregious cases, and to generally be biased against removing such content. It is my suspicion that even if I were to expend the effort needed, other means would be used to preserve the status quo. It does not make sense for me to make this effort, and indeed I would question the thought process of anyone who concluded otherwise. RW may be broken, but it doesn't want to be fixed. I am very pleased to have come to this realization before I spent any meaningful effort here. [[User:Jsolinsky|Jsolinsky]] ([[User talk:Jsolinsky|talk]]) 02:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
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A small bit of housekeeping. While I think this site is unnecessarily defamatory to Noah Carl, I would like to make it clear that I am NOT including him, when I refer to "well published scientists". His page just happened to be the place where some of this came to a head. [[User:Jsolinsky|Jsolinsky]] ([[User talk:Jsolinsky|talk]]) 02:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
  
 
== New Block Reason  ==
 
== New Block Reason  ==

Revision as of 02:49, 18 December 2018

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A revision needs burning

So, somebody replaced the content of Just Asking Questions with a request to call a number in Moscow, followed by what I think was a personal name. I hid the revision and permablocked the user, but I thought to let you know in case the revision needs more moderating. Hertzy (talk) 18:57, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

@Hertzy Thanks. You seem to have already done all that is necessary. CowHouse (talk) 04:05, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

BadPiggies 9

@Bongolian, CheeseburgerFace, DiamondDisc1, LeftyGreenMario, and Spud
Moderation update:
I recently changed the user rights of User:BadPiggies 9 (BP9) so they are no longer autopatrolled or a sysop. This was in response to BP9 trying to block me permanently for the following reason:

05:19, 29 October 2018 BadPiggies 9 (talk | contribs | block) blocked CowHouse (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of π×infinity! (account creation disabled) (Keeps undoing useful edits with stupid excuses, trolling me, and making very serious and untrue allegations against me (see his notes when he edited the SJWiki article). I'm sorry, and I wish it didn't have to be this way, but you're too dangerous.) (unblock | change block)

BP9's subsequent comments showed this was clearly not a joke or an accident. I welcome you to look through my contributions to verify that I did nothing worthy of a block.

BP9 created their account in August 2018 and started editing recently in October 2018. I have tried to be patient with them since they're new (far too new to be a sysop, in my opinion) but they have demonstrated a pattern of problematic behaviour:

I'm also unsure how to deal with the spam (for lack of a better term) on their talk page. Are users meant to be able to spam their own talk page?

Trying to patiently deal with this user has wasted a lot of my time. CowHouse (talk) 08:15, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

There is absolutely no doubt that CowHouse, a trusted and respected editor, is in the right and BadPiggies9 is in the wrong.
I completely agree that BadPiggies9 should not have been made a sysop after actively editing for less than a month. BadPiggies9 obviously does not have the experience, or I would say the maturity, to be trusted with sysop rights yet. I do not think those rights should be restored for a long time to come.
I see that BadPiggies9 removed the articles for deletion template from the SJWiki page. The deletion discussion process for that page is still ongoing and, so far, nobody has voted to keep it. Removing that template is very bad form at best. At worst, it is dishonesty and vandalism.
And plagiarism is not a little thing, as far as we are concerned. It is a big deal. Plagiarized sections should be removed from pages at once and pages that are made up almost exclusively of plagiarism should be swiftly deleted.
I also find the fixation that BadPiggies9 has with Cnservapedia to be slightly troubling, especially the uploading of screencapss of vandalism done to that wiki. Spud (talk) 12:37, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I concur with Spud. I don't however see any spam on BadPiggies 9's talk page or anything else that crosses the line. Spam is not allowed on RW no matter where it is. Bongolian (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Agreed that the user should not get sysop rights mainly from abusing blocking privileges. It's not productive to block users based on disagreement. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 16:49, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
@Bongolian Spam was definitely the wrong word. I'm talking about the talk page comments under the headings "A Message...", "Operation Xbox One", "Fake News. Sad!" and "My Debate Challenge" (all of them were added by BP9 if you look at the fossil record). Are they meant to be on a user's talk page? Although, to be honest, I'm not sure what purpose these templates serve anyway. CowHouse (talk) 02:57, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, those templates are disruptive to the flow of the talk page, and they are not formatted correctly (nor are they easy on the eyes). I think they should be moved to the main user page. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 03:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, it belongs on BP9's home page, not the talk page. It's obviously the least of the problems that you've outlined though. Bongolian (talk) 03:23, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Here here. 02:53, 2 November 2018 (UTC) — Unsigned, by: CheeseburgerFace / talk / contribs
Not hear hear? — Dysk (contribs) 13:23, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

While all this happened over a month ago, and so I`m a bit late, all responsibility falls squarely on me for being the one who demoted BP9 in the first place. I thought I should have just thrown that out there.--Don Juan (talk) 18:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
Nah, nothing is serious. Don't feel bad. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 18:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

No personal attacks policy

As far as I'm aware, there's no specific policy on RationalWiki against personal attacks. I was wondering if we should propose such a policy and have the community vote on it. Essentially, should our discourse be more like Twitter or Wikipedia?Wikipedia Here are a small selection of recent personal attacks (only TheDarkMaster2 received a block):

I agree that TheDarkMaster2 deserved a block, but should we permit the other examples?

Arguments for a no personal attacks policy:

These comments are discouraging for both new and experienced users who are either reading or participating in discussions, and I wouldn't blame someone for eventually LANCB. Also, once one person resorts to personal attacks it is almost inevitable the other side will respond in kind. You won't have a particularly productive discussion if you're calling each other "little shits", "fuckfaces" and "cunts". Seeing experienced users use personal attacks sets a terrible example for newcomers.

The problem as I see it, revolves around attracting new editors to the wiki as well as improving the quality of the articles involved in disputes on article talk pages. Insults and paranoid insinuations are irrelevant. They contribute nothing to revealing truth in a subject and rather chase away those milder souls with little appetite for the ravings of the jacobins among us. This wiki is not a bastion of scholarship, yet it makes claims regarding ideals of human knowledge: science and moral philosophy. That some folks taking after Robespierre should make so little effort to support their assertions of moral rectitude with decent behavior does not surprise me. Lashing out does not make the world, nor this wiki a better place.Ariel31459 (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Arguments against:

Ikanreed: Maybe you're so lucky as to not be a person whose life and rights are threatened by them, but "being civil" is only a priority to people whose only concerns are abstractions. Shit like this is exactly why I've been unable to respect calls for civility here, there's too much abuse of the concept in defense of the indefensible.

See also: RationalWiki:Saloon bar#What about talk page etiquette? and Essay:RationalWiki has an image problem. CowHouse (talk) 04:07, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I think we should tighten moderation on personal attacks (i.e. flaming), and keep a special eye out on users that ideologically align with us (and again I'm guilty of permitting attacks and doing some myself, hence I myself would want a framework to work on, but if we keep personal attacks down and frowned upon, this will discourage other users who agree with them from also doing so themselves). And there should be no threats against people who try calling mods (for the most part), so if we implement a rule, we should cover that. Of course, we don't allow abuse but it shouldn't be frowned upon to ping mods if there is a courtesy violation. Any accusations of things like "decorum poisoning" or giving mods a hard time (as opposed to disputing through chicken coop) for their decisions should also be frowned upon. I see users not enjoying this sort of discourse and wanting to leave and this is very concerning to me, so I take this issue of civility seriously. Last thing I want is have a bunch of rude users who agree with each other and discourage people to disagree with them. I'd let ikanreed make an actual counterargument rather than have us substitute for him (with his comment in the context of politics, which I don't believe is fair for him). --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 04:30, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm a bit leery of a blanket no-personal-attacks rule, as there can be a fine line I think. Ad hominem attacks are poor form, uncalled for, and should be discouraged. I also support civility. For example, there is a difference between calling someone a fascist for no discernible reason or simply because one disagrees with them (both uncalled for) vs. calling them a fascist because they support fascistic ideas or support a politician with fascistic tendencies. The latter is basically what I did on RWRW's talk page when discussing his pro-Trump essay: User talk:RWRW#Politics. Bongolian (talk) 04:42, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
Well, we should treat policy as guidelines. They're not going to cover everything and I don't expect them to be applied in a blanket manner. Calling someone who supports fascistic ideals a fascist would not be a personal attack, but the caveat is that you have to present a really strong case (i.e. you have to make a clear, reasoned, and detailed rundown) and you're not using the buzzword as it is. Nevertheless, I believe it's preferable to claim that a user supports fascist policies so you attack the views, the preferred mode to tackle an argument, and not assign a user restrictive labels. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 04:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
FWIW I agree. I was a little surprised by @Bongolian's comment (and I still don't think its accurate), but I defiantly didn't see it as a personal attack. --RWRW (talk) 11:19, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
It's one thing to consider Trump a fascist, but I'm not sure what purpose is served by labeling his supporters fascists when approximately none of his supporters see Trump as a fascist. Seems like a good way to keep everyone in their own bubble I guess? *shrugs* 141.134.75.236 (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Poll

Should RationalWiki adopt the RationalWiki:Contributor Covenant as a community guideline?

Yes

  1. I say aye. — Dysk (contribs) 13:54, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  2. Minority opinion: I want to because I don't like losing users and I really like to have something to work with when deciding if someone (a good faith editor, not a troll) gets too far insulting and making derogatory comments. I don't agree with some of the provisions, also think it's vague, and I was working on something else in my draft space, though I think we need to start on something, so that's fine by me. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 18:36, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
    If we can come up with a more concrete proposal about what is and is not acceptable, with examples, I could be supportive. It should be put up for a vote to the wider community I think. Bongolian (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
    How about my sandbox? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!
    Sounds much better. I have just a couple of concerns:
    "Ad hominem attacks are overall strongly discouraged even if you believe there's every justification for them." Why "overall"? Ad hominem's are always bad.
    "Keep in mind this applies to users who edit in good faith, not to either trolls or vandals." This could easily turn into a loophole: "I can insult user X because he is a troll." I would remove it and I would move the sentence: "if you suspect a user to be a troll, however, it remains best to ignore, revert (if the troll has made bad-faith edits), block. Use Trollcollapse or DFTT to prevent other users for falling for the bait and wasting their time." at the end of the bullet point "Questioning a user's honesty". --Lankaster (talk) 12:11, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
    Well if it's more acceptable to the mob than these "standard" guidelines then I reckon we should give it a go. — Dysk (contribs) 21:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
  3. Many nay-sayers are making good points. I vote yes in support of the general idea. A policy needs to be adopted if you expect interest in this wiki to continue to grow. Policies can be amended at the drop of a hat. I want to support enforcement of sound policies. Also, for those of you who like an occasional insult, fuck-off.Ariel31459 (talk) 15:46, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

No

  1. Not a fan of the "insulting/derogatory comments" bit. Obviously I am against being an asshole. But given that this community frequently goes to edit wars and factional conflicts, I am concerned about this being used as a means of getting rid of the losers. Vague language like that here is just begging for a "Vae victis" situation. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:46, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  2. I support civility. A moderator can and should step in and tell people to cool it when things get out of hand. Bongolian (talk) 17:01, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  3. Too vague. In addition, if someone (I won't name names) has consistently acted in a dishonest manner these rule would prevent others for calling them out. Another flaw is that some users, myself included, have a ow threshold for bullshit, which means if someone continues to push an agenda (or appears to whether they intend to or not) some of us will likely flare up for pretty straightforward reasons. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:16, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
    Not necessarily? You can still call a user's argument tactics dishonest without resorting to insults. You just need to present your case. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 18:18, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  4. Again? Dendlai (talk) 17:26, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  5. Nor am I a fan of the "The use of sexualized language or imagery" prohibition. The right to say "fuck the draft" is one of the boons for which our forefathers bled, and the return of prissiness on these subjects is something I'm not OK with. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 18:50, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  6. I agree with this in principle, but I think it should be crafted by our community. That way we can address the concerns listed above and come up with a clearer/less authoritarian enforcement mechanism. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 19:02, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
  7. This is difficult. I've always taken the view that RationalWiki isn't for everybody, or at the very least that being a RationalWiki editor isn't for everybody. I've always thought it was something you couldn't really do if you were easily offended. And apart from a certain user who gave trolls too much oxygen and couldn't seem to see the difference between trolls and regular users, I think that most people who have complained of offense have been people who have been trying to push an agenda ideologically opposed to the normal RW one. And I think that making people like that feel uncomfortable enough to leave is a good thing. But things have changed a lot since 2007. I don't think we've seen the last of this discussion. Spud (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
  8. I'm all for the pledge of restraining talk on sexual identity, race, obesity, etc., but political beliefs and opinions? That goes too far (note: as an avowed conservative, I don't consider identity politics the valid substance of political debate or legitimate political views, anyways. Don't impose your bullshit morality on me. So all you liberal/commie/progressive/Marxist/socialists and genocidal maniacs go ahead and castrate yourselves for the sake of civility and discussion). RobSmithIvanka 2024! 09:00, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
  9. this is a goddamned awful idea. Clearly the work of a diseased mind. Acei9 10:03, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
  10. I don't think we need more bureaucracy to handle this. The moderators and sysops should be entrusted with using their best judgment to deal with individual cases as needed. Cosmikdebris (talk) 16:09, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Goat

This doesn't deal the need for a clear procedure for moderators addressing honest disputes. That is where both editors are sincere: thus a moderator must have a sound basis for assuming one or other of the contestants is a troll. My recommendations are When a moderator is contacted, they should look at the subject of the dispute and decide if they are conflicted: e.g. user X is an old pal, and user Y is a newcomer. It looks bad when you decide against Y, even if X is a better choice.

  1. The moderator should post a conflict notice in a prominent place, e.g., the Saloon.
  2. If you are not conflicted and nobody else shows up, go ahead and decide the question. Otherwise take a vote.
  3. Let the loser complain and argue all they want on the talk pages. They lost. Let them torment themselves. Ariel31459 (talk) 16:41, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

WTF is it anyway?

  • The Contributor Covenant is a boilerplate code of conduct for open source communities, around 40,000 websites use it including Google. It provides a non-specific but generally effective way of outlining how people should contribute. Exactly how any case should be dealt with is not specified as the Contributor Covenant is more or less a set of ethical guidelines and not some kind of policy. — Dysk (contribs) 13:54, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
discussion below please

discussion 141.134.75.236 (talk) 14:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

guidelines arent the issue here. these is already in the code of conduct. as others have mentioned its the inconsistant application of the guidelines - something the mods need to be doing job of - a lighter here, more proactive there, and most importantly working on from the page. i dont know if they have anything like a handbook when they sign up, guide when they intervene and how, and maybe some kind of log of everything so you can easily compare similar situations. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

They don't have a handbook nor do they have a log. It can make consistent application difficult. This is mostly what I'm working from and all I'm getting is "just apply the lightest touch". --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 17:53, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Two people are leaving because of the amount of insults. Is this something to take seriously then? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 18:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Well it was an excellent opportunity to see if people want to modernise and take on the same ethics as most other online communities. It's worth noting that some people will inevitably be put off before posting at all by all the rude bollocks we have on most talk pages. I don't really give a monkeys, but this is the mainstream code of community guidelines and by not using it we are defining ourselves as using our own rules, whatever they may be. :D — Dysk (contribs) 18:19, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
we already have this. everyone knows you can't throw around racial slurs and call people dumb fucks all the time. its haphazard implementation of theses things and of the more vague 'civility' thats the issue. ive gone into more detail at the moderator election page, where it is most pertinent. there is no point drawing up differently worded but otherwise identical codes of conduct if implementation is not addressed. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:32, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
a clusterfuck of an idea. I say we castrate the proposer and punish all those who support it. Acei9 10:05, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Oh fuck you, didn't you see the bit where I said that over 40,000 other sites use it? You are going to castrate all of them?!? :p — Dysk (contribs) 11:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Calm the fuck down kiddos. Most sites that have a code of conduct adopt a standardized version that (from what I understand) is designed to protect the site's ass rather than really protect the users. You can see this sort of thing in action if you examine Reddit for instance. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:56, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
But you can see code of conduct in action for Skeptical Science or Wikipedia. The talk pages and comments in those sites are usually worth reading, no insults or flame baths to slog through, unlike in sites like GameFAQs or comments sections of news sites. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 23:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Deleting relevant information on Linda Sarsour

@Bongolian@CheeseburgerFace@CowHouse@DiamondDisc1@LeftyGreenMario@Spud

James Earl Cash keeps deleting relevant information from the page of Linda Sarsour. The information is question are:

1) Sarsour said she wished she could take away the vagina of a female genital mutilation victim that criticized her.

2) A quote of Sarsour about Jews condoning violence against Arabs and being cool with mosques being attacked.

3) Sarsour "god blessing" the infamous anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan.

As usual, James Earl Cash is acting in the most hostile way as possible and he is engaging in edit wars. -Lankaster (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Pretty unfair description, we're all on the talk page talking about problems with specific pieces of your change that are provoking the rollback. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:19, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Are you talking about 1,2,3? It seems to me that you all are discussing Sarsour and Israel, and it seems to me that you're doing a good job at finding the original transcript about supposed Sarsour dehumanization of Israeli. I don't have problems with that. I have problems with James removing important information like 1,2,3. -19:26, 9 November 2018 (UTC) — Unsigned, by: Lankaster / talk / contribs
As ikanreed indicated, @Lankaster, it's best to try to deal with this first and foremost on the talk page for Linda Sarsour. Bongolian (talk) 19:35, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
@Bongolian I would agree, if it wasn't for the usual James Earl Cash's hostility. I don't want to waste hours trying to explain the plainly obvious fact that 1,2,3 are important information, while getting insulted one hundred times and having to read unrelated false analogies.
Are or are not 1,2,3 important information? Why RW should not report that Sarours wished to take away a FGM victim's vagina, spokes of Jews being cool with mosques attacked, and "god blessed" anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan? I let the moderators to take a stance. -Lankaster (talk) 19:48, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

TheDarkMaster2

My sister BabyLuigiOnFire vandal binned TheDarkMaster2. Recently. I don't particularly care either way if this user gets unbinned or not, but maybe another moderator can chip in? Thanks. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 23:12, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

It seems inappropriate to vandal bin him. I don't see any evidence of vandalism on his part. If you think any of his personal attacks could be construed as harassment, that would be cause for a block. Bongolian (talk) 00:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Deleting my contributions to a section of the talk page for Hereditarianism

I hope this is the right place to post this, but I'd like to know if it's possible to delete a section I added and had a discussion with on the Hereditarianism page (it's the '1973 survey section and inclusion of the second Turkheimer, Nisbett, Paige Harden 'Vox' article' one). Initially I was trying to suggest additions to the page I felt were important, but I very regrettably turned the ensuing conversation with another contributor there into one where I became very explicit about my personal uncertainties and fears pertaining to the issues brought up on the page. I tried to blank this section since nothing mentioned in it ended up being added into the page but this edit was reversed. I'd really appreciate it if any moderators would be happy to allow this section to blanked so that I can rest more easily without the anxiety of this mini-meltdown of mine visible on the talk page being visible to the entire world. If this is doable I'd also appreciate if this section I'm writing here could also be blanked once this is done just so that there's as little proof as possible I made the comments I did. I'm terribly afraid of being stalked, screenshoted and mocked by alt-rightists for my comments because of how vulnerable I came off so if it's at all possible to avoid this I'd be very, very thankful DiabolikDownUnder (talk) 19:27, 13 November 2018 (AET)

@DiabolikDownUnder, we have a rule against deleting text from talk pages with an exception for doxing.[1] I don't see how that text doxes yourself. Bongolian (talk) 17:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Alt-rightists are unlikely to take note of random posts on an RW talkpage. Though the more we talk about it, the more likely it becomes for the Streisand effect to kick in. :| 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:33, 13 November 42018 AQD (UTC)
The number of RW editors singled out for harrasment by kiwifarms types is small. Not zero, but very few of us. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Techs

@Spud @LeftyGreenMario @RWRW @DuceMoosolini @Bongolian So, time to try and fulfill my first campaign promise.

I would like to formally propose that we surrender our ability to make techs over to people with the "staff" user right, on the condition that techs will be appointed by either Trent or a full Board vote. This is in accordance with this part of the Community Standards. 16:26, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes

  • Sounds very sensible to me. Spud (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree that techs should be appointed by staff, though I don’t know if a full board vote would be necessary. Surely one board member would be enough to decide if somebody should get the right. I also endorse the recommendation that any change wouldn't impact the current techs.--RWRW (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

No

  • Doesn't point at any particular problems being solved. I love fixing edit filter shit. It's a useful task. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:48, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
    • You do realize you will still be able to do that, right? The only change is one of the mods' user rights. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
      Yeah, but a mod gave me the rights when I said I'd look into edit filter problems, with my magic powers of being a half-assed programmer. Unless there's a problem being solved, I'm pretty quick to get on the no train for policy proposals. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:52, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
      • Fair enough. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
        • What exactly is a "full board vote" mean? Basically, board deciding on techs = good. Onerous process meaning no one ever bothers making another tech again = bad. Also, mods will still have to have the technical ability to add/remove the tech user-right for obvious moderation reasons, it would otherwise make techs unmoderatable -- obviously a bad idea. — Dysk (contribs) 17:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Questions remain unanswered. Until I can get a solid answer, keeping vote firmly to nay. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 02:14, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Goat

  1. Ok two questions.
    1. What exactly is the issue this will fix?
    2. What about the various existing techs?
    Not really asking for a friend here, as I am a tech. :) — Dysk (contribs) 16:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  2. As Dysklyver wrote above, what about the techs currently in existence? Is this retroactive, or does the grandfather clause apply to us?--Don Juan (talk) 16:34, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
    No. This only applies to future techs. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
    Well that seems fine then. — Dysk (contribs) 16:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  3. Part of the problem is that there's no technical qualification at all for being a moderator or a board member, so these categories of membership don't necessarily qualify them for evaluating technical skills. Unanimous board agreement seems especially excessive for this reason. I got tech rights immediately and without asking because I said I knew Perl. Well, the fact is it's been several years since I've done any programming at all unless you count generators in Wiki mark-up. Existing Techs are probably most likely best able to judge tech ability, but there's no test and it might be hard to make one. (Submit a code sample? That could be used for doxing.) Bongolian (talk) 18:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  4. Honest question, is this a real issue? Are mods being allowed power to demote to tech, has that been abused to the detriment of RationalWiki? I myself don't see it. I'm leaning to oppose. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:21, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Mod identifiers in signature

I think we should make identifying mods easier. Also, is it a good idea to change username color in the recent changes to indicate mods and other users below sysop? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:19, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

This used to be done. See the oldest archive of this page and {{Moderator}}. — Dysk (contribs) 20:23, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't object to it, but I prefer to try to interact with fellow-Sysops as a Sysop primarily. Bongolian (talk) 20:29, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
True, I do wish there's a way to make it just a way to identify them and not have it seem like one has more "authority" than the other. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
The idea of adding a link to the list of moderators to the sidebar was mentioned before? How about doing that? Spud (talk) 02:50, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Let's try that. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 05:35, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm OK with that. Bongolian (talk) 18:17, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Also agreed. Maybe also a link to this page? Just so they can bring up an issue to all of us? RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
  • I added "Mod noticeboard" to the sidebar (next to technical support) linking to this page, and added a list of mods to the top of this page. — Dysk (contribs) 11:21, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
@Dysklyver Thanks a lot! I think that's great! Spud (talk) 13:18, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Very well done indeed. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:42, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Mods, keep a watch on this

@Bongolian @DuceMoosolini @RWRW @RoninMacbeth @Spud

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Neil_deGrasse_Tyson#Rape_accusations

--It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 02:11, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

...Grumbles about how we should have banned them earlier... — Dysk (contribs) 19:05, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Banning them for being nuisances is always the perfect solution. To the Coop we go then.--Don Juan (talk) 10:21, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
The conflict has appeared to fizzle out but I do suppose passion hurts for these two lovers. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Confused about appropriate etiquette here

I'm new here. I arrived at the Eric Turkheimer‎‎ page, which at the time seemed quite outrageous.

In reaction to my initial edit, Matty the Damned placed an unwelcome message on my talk page.

I ignored it, achieved consensus on the Eric Turkheimer page, and my original edits, more or less went into effect.

I think there is something dangerous going on here, typified by the Eric Turkheimer page before I edited, such that prominent scientists are being slandered as pseudo scientists based on their viewpoints (or worse, inaccurately supposed viewpoints). This is particularly true of individuals involved in Behavior Genetics.

After the Eric Turkheimer page was resolved, Ariel31459 changed my unwelcome to a welcome message. GrammarCommie is now editwaring on my own talk page with Ariel and myself over whether I should be welcome or unwelcome here. He has blocked me from editing my own talk page (even as he has engaged me in discussion on it).

I think this is inappropriate.

I'd like to know if I am welcome here. I believe in the scientific method. I believe that people who ignore scientific evidence (such as those who deny evolution, and those who call global warming a hoax) should be mocked. I thought that this is the site to do this on. If so, I think I belong here. But if the goal of this site is to push left wing ideologies, and attack prominent scientists who appear to take the scientific method seriously, then I'm obviously in the wrong place. I'll quickly make my exit.

I think that calling most of the prominent scientists in a particular field "pseudoscientists" because they have results that you don't agree with is harmful to both science and to this site. To call a well published scientist a pseudo scientist, there should be a scientific consensus that the individual is using fallacies or anti-scientific practices in his or her work. This is especially true for living and scientifically active individuals. The way to address such people, if they are wrong, is by publishing papers, not by calling them names.

Please let me know where and to what degree I am out of line. Thanks. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jsolinsky Standard protocol for edit wars is to lock the page in question. Further It is a BIG fucking No-no to edit other users' comments, just because you dislike them. You did the latter, and the former, and I am well within my rights to tell you off for doing so. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:19, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
You were edit warring on my own talk page over Ariel31459's decision to change my message from unwelcome to welcome. YOU edited Ariel31459's comment on MY talk page. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
More relevantly, you seem to consistently revert anything you don't like without contributing anything substantive to the conversation here. It looks to me like you are abusing this site for your own purposes. I am eager to hear from the rest of the community whether they agree with your behavior. If they do, I'll spend my time elsewhere. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Is it standard protocol for one of the participants in an edit war to change the page to the version he likes and then lock it himself without getting somebody impartial? Because that seems like a pretty clear abuse of power to me. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't care for User:Jsolinsky but a bloke is entitled to his talkpage. On that basis I've unprotected User talk:Jsolinsky. --MtDBogan 03:32, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
And Ariel was wrong to do what he did. You were both in the wrong, and I reverted the edits in question. If I began changing the content of your comments to suddenly be flowery praise of me, would that be the right thing to do? I think not. And I hold you to those same fucking standards and expect to be held to such in turn. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:36, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
He didn't change a comment. He changed the Welcome message from the unwelcome template to the welcome template. As I've said, if I am unwelcome, I will just leave. If I'm staying then the unwelcome message goes. I admit I probably wouldn't have felt strongly about this had Ariel31459 not made the change and you editwarred to change it back. But here we are. I'm inclined to just delete the (un)welcome message/comment altogether, but I'll wait some time to either hear back from MtD or get feedback from another user. Jsolinsky (talk) 04:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Matty the Damned Thank you for unblocking me MtD. Out of curiosity, is calling me a "bellend" and a "cunt" a standard RationalWiki expression of endearment? Or am I special? Maybe the Behavior Genetics folks are getting off lightly when they are called pseudoscientists on RationalWiki Jsolinsky (talk) 04:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Jsolinsky You weren't blocked you mendacious shit, your talkpage was protected. Two different things. Brother you are within a poofteenth of an inch of tasting the blunt end of the banhammer so you might want to make yourself scarce for the forseeable future. --MtDBogan 04:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Jsolinsky Did you read beyond the word unwelcome? And since you apparently read MtD's talkpage, did you read my own thoughts on the matter? Because that's what I take away from those messages, not a "with us or against us" attitude but a unfortunate impression. Perhaps that initial impression was genuine, and you should leave. Perhaps everyone got off to the wrong foot, as it were, in which case staying around might be the right call. I have no shagging clue, and refuse to make those decisions for anyone other than myself. Decide what you will, expand your horizons, or don't, any way you slice it it's your call. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 04:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
For clarity, I'm really not asking GrammarCommie or MtD whether I should stay here. You have been as unambiguous as you intended to be. I'm inquiring as to the preference of the broader community. Taking RW policy at face value, what I'm doing here is advancing its mission. — Unsigned, by: User:Jsolinsky / talk / contribs

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── And I'm sure the broader community thanks you for your service. --MtDBogan 04:53, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, @Ariel31459 was very, very wrong to have changed the template on @Jsolinsky's talk page from Unwelcome to Welcome. That most definitely does count as editing another user's comments and that is a huge no-no. If Ariel thought that a user who had initially been given an unwelcome deserved a welcome, he should have left the Unwelcome template at the top of the page and added his own message with the Welcome template at the top of it in a new section on the page. That's happened before. Furthermore, on RationalWiki, a user's talk page is not his or her castle. It belongs to the entire community, not just the user. Messages should never be removed unless they are obviously vile trolling (you'll recognize it when you see it). Personally, I prefer to have all comments left on my talk page, up to and including death threats. Under the circumstances, however, I think the best thing is to allow Jsolinsky's talk page to remain without either a Welcome or an Unwelcome message so that we can move on. And whether or not Jsolinsky will prove to be a valuable contributor very much remains to be seen. Spud (talk) 05:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
All principles which I have upheld. My only objection was User:Jsolinsky have his talk page protected so he couldn't edit it. A well meaning but entirely unproductive action. --MtDBogan 05:10, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Well, I probably would have done the same thing if I had been in GrammarCmmie's position. It looks like the protection was originally for 24 hours, right? Maybe a more symbolic protection time, say 30 minutes, would have been better to get across the message that you do not edit war and your talk page doesn't truly belong to you. Anyway, can we now agree that this storm in a teacup is over? Spud (talk) 05:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Totes. My position all along. Coop the cunt or leave him alone. --MtDBogan 05:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
There are still two issues:
1. There is still the question of what to do about all the Behavior Geneticists that are labeled pseudoscientists. Is there an existing community consensus document or discussion on when it is appropriate to call a prominent scientist a pseudoscientist? If not, is there a place where such discussions happen, other than individual pages? Jsolinsky (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
2. GrammarCommie objects to me going to a page. Leaving a comment in talk about a change I plan to make. And then making that change after a few days if I receive no comment. I don't see anything here that suggests that there is something wrong with this. If somebody disagrees with my edit, then I expect them to at least leave a comment in Talk about why they reverted me. And I expect the comment to have something to do with the actual content of the page and my edit. But GrammarCommie has been reverting me because he says I made the changes without consensus and not leaving any substantive reason for the reversion in talk. I'm not sure how to resolve this. See, for example, the Noah Carl page, and specifically the talk section around "More dishonesty from Carl" Jsolinsky (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Spud It was 9 hours if I recall correctly. @Jsolinsky You removed a large chunk of sourced content after a mere statement of disagreement. Imagine if we let people do that to all our articles, it would be a bloody fucking madness. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie @Spud @Jsolinsky @Matty the Damned This issue apparently hasn't died down, so I brought the Coop section I made, and then subsequently deleted, about it earlier back up. That would seem to be a more fitting place than this page. Ɖøn Ĵuan (talk) 13:49, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie @Spud Time stamp of the talk page comment in my Noah Carl example: 17:11, 12 December 2018 (UTC) Time stamp of the page change: 18:02, 15 December 2018‎ Sure looks like three days to me. Jsolinsky (talk) 14:20, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
GrammarCommie reverted reverted with this comment in the edit log and nothing in talk: "Per your single comment in talk. It's easy to have a consensus of one." Jsolinsky (talk) 14:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Jsolinsky, on this wiki, do not take no response to mean no opposition. And do not remove large sections of sourced text. Now, I suggest that you take that discussion back to the Noah Carl talk page. @Don Juan I was going to say there isn't any need for a Coop case yet. Mind you, if things carry on like this... Spud (talk) 14:34, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Spud This is considered to be a large section of sourced text? https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Noah_Carl&type=revision&diff=2022419&oldid=2019445 Jsolinsky (talk) 14:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Jsolinsky Yes. Spud (talk) 14:43, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

@Spud It has occurred to me that the welcome message could be added in addition to the unwelcome message. So, we regard the unwelcome emblem to be no more than an individual opinion? I wasn't aware. Fine. I recommend discontinuing the practice. It has already been established that there is a dwindling interest in making edits to this wiki. I would rather see users arguing over bad edits, than a continued decline in the number of edits.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

@Ariel31459 No, the Unwelcome template shouldn't really be just one editor's opinion. It should only be put on the talk pages of new users who are clearly going against the community standards. However, we all make mistakes. It is possible that someone could have been too harsh in putting the Unwelcome template on the page of a new user who's maybe been a bit of a pain but hasn't done anything seriously wrong. And we can but hope that new users might change their ways after getting that message. In those cases, it would be possible to give the Welcome message to someone who's already received the Unwelcome message before. Spud (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

The way I see things: This site has defamatory attacks against numerous well published scientists and their papers that support results that do not conform with the views of the left. (e.g. Richard Haier, Linda Gottfredson, basically all of behavior genetics, etc.). If those attacks were supported with specific dissections of fallacious arguments, it could still represent a positive contribution. But overwhelmingly the logic seems to be: "This person's research could be used to support results I disagree with", and worse: "This person has worked with somebody whose research could be used to support results I disagree with". Such fallacious arguments are anti-scientific, and undermine the good work this site has done on matters like evolution and climate change. If it is OK for RationalWiki to disregard an entire branch of science because of its implications, why can't a creationist do the same. I think the answer is clear: Rational inquiry requires that research and evidence always trump belief. It is never OK to disregard an entire branch of science. This is true even if the branch in question is ultimately proved wrong, as so many past branches have been.

Much of the argumentation seems to be: "These people are crypto racists, therefore nothing they say matters". But most of these individuals have explicitly declaimed racist and supremacist behaviors, and indeed have long records of behavior which make no sense if they actually held racist views. The study of intelligence, and its heritability or lack thereof is an obviously interesting topic. It hardly requires any racial animus to seek to study it. Even if they were racists (and surely some are), ad hominem is not a valid basis for declaring peer reviewed research to be invalid. The scientific method must prevail even when one side of an argument is represented by somebody truly reprehensible.

I initially thought that this wiki would be biased against the inclusion of defamatory statements against living people. It is clear at this point that this is not the case. Indeed the path to removing defamatory content without being accused of violating the rules of this wiki is shockingly effort intensive. Before any edit is made, I must contact the previous editors, have a discussion and achieve consensus. In the case of many of these pages, it is clear that the previous editors have extremely strong ideological biases. This is hardly surprising. Defamatory articles come from people with strong views against the defamed. It appears to me that the effect and likely intent of the policies (as enforced) is to retain defamatory content except in the most egregious cases, and to generally be biased against removing such content. It is my suspicion that even if I were to expend the effort needed, other means would be used to preserve the status quo. It does not make sense for me to make this effort, and indeed I would question the thought process of anyone who concluded otherwise. RW may be broken, but it doesn't want to be fixed. I am very pleased to have come to this realization before I spent any meaningful effort here. Jsolinsky (talk) 02:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

A small bit of housekeeping. While I think this site is unnecessarily defamatory to Noah Carl, I would like to make it clear that I am NOT including him, when I refer to "well published scientists". His page just happened to be the place where some of this came to a head. Jsolinsky (talk) 02:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

New Block Reason

"Troll?" How do we define this? RoninMacbeth (talk) 08:29, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

An internet troll is someone who is just trying to elicit an emotional reaction from other internet users, either by making them angry or upset. I really don't think that making "troll" a specific blocking reason is necessary. Most of the attempts at trolling in the Saloon Bar are pretty pathetic ("Jesus is the reason for the season, you atheists") and are best handled by ignoring them. The more persistent trolls will all commit blockable offences like vandalism or harassment and will get blocked for those reasons. Spud (talk) 12:24, 16 December 2018 (UTC)