RationalWiki talk:All things in moderation
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Confused about appropriate etiquette here
I'm new here. I arrived at the Eric Turkheimer page, which at the time seemed quite outrageous.
In reaction to my initial edit, Matty the Damned placed an unwelcome message on my talk page.
I ignored it, achieved consensus on the Eric Turkheimer page, and my original edits, more or less went into effect.
I think there is something dangerous going on here, typified by the Eric Turkheimer page before I edited, such that prominent scientists are being slandered as pseudo scientists based on their viewpoints (or worse, inaccurately supposed viewpoints). This is particularly true of individuals involved in Behavior Genetics.
After the Eric Turkheimer page was resolved, Ariel31459 changed my unwelcome to a welcome message. GrammarCommie is now editwaring on my own talk page with Ariel and myself over whether I should be welcome or unwelcome here. He has blocked me from editing my own talk page (even as he has engaged me in discussion on it).
I think this is inappropriate.
I'd like to know if I am welcome here. I believe in the scientific method. I believe that people who ignore scientific evidence (such as those who deny evolution, and those who call global warming a hoax) should be mocked. I thought that this is the site to do this on. If so, I think I belong here. But if the goal of this site is to push left wing ideologies, and attack prominent scientists who appear to take the scientific method seriously, then I'm obviously in the wrong place. I'll quickly make my exit.
I think that calling most of the prominent scientists in a particular field "pseudoscientists" because they have results that you don't agree with is harmful to both science and to this site. To call a well published scientist a pseudo scientist, there should be a scientific consensus that the individual is using fallacies or anti-scientific practices in his or her work. This is especially true for living and scientifically active individuals. The way to address such people, if they are wrong, is by publishing papers, not by calling them names.
Please let me know where and to what degree I am out of line. Thanks. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Jsolinsky Standard protocol for edit wars is to lock the page in question. Further It is a BIG fucking No-no to edit other users' comments, just because you dislike them. You did the latter, and the former, and I am well within my rights to tell you off for doing so. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:19, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- You were edit warring on my own talk page over Ariel31459's decision to change my message from unwelcome to welcome. YOU edited Ariel31459's comment on MY talk page. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- More relevantly, you seem to consistently revert anything you don't like without contributing anything substantive to the conversation here. It looks to me like you are abusing this site for your own purposes. I am eager to hear from the rest of the community whether they agree with your behavior. If they do, I'll spend my time elsewhere. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Is it standard protocol for one of the participants in an edit war to change the page to the version he likes and then lock it himself without getting somebody impartial? Because that seems like a pretty clear abuse of power to me. Jsolinsky (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- I don't care for User:Jsolinsky but a bloke is entitled to his talkpage. On that basis I've unprotected User talk:Jsolinsky. --MtDBogan 03:32, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- And Ariel was wrong to do what he did. You were both in the wrong, and I reverted the edits in question. If I began changing the content of your comments to suddenly be flowery praise of me, would that be the right thing to do? I think not. And I hold you to those same fucking standards and expect to be held to such in turn. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:36, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- He didn't change a comment. He changed the Welcome message from the unwelcome template to the welcome template. As I've said, if I am unwelcome, I will just leave. If I'm staying then the unwelcome message goes. I admit I probably wouldn't have felt strongly about this had Ariel31459 not made the change and you editwarred to change it back. But here we are. I'm inclined to just delete the (un)welcome message/comment altogether, but I'll wait some time to either hear back from MtD or get feedback from another user. Jsolinsky (talk) 04:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- And Ariel was wrong to do what he did. You were both in the wrong, and I reverted the edits in question. If I began changing the content of your comments to suddenly be flowery praise of me, would that be the right thing to do? I think not. And I hold you to those same fucking standards and expect to be held to such in turn. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:36, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- I don't care for User:Jsolinsky but a bloke is entitled to his talkpage. On that basis I've unprotected User talk:Jsolinsky. --MtDBogan 03:32, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Matty the Damned Thank you for unblocking me MtD. Out of curiosity, is calling me a "bellend" and a "cunt" a standard RationalWiki expression of endearment? Or am I special? Maybe the Behavior Genetics folks are getting off lightly when they are called pseudoscientists on RationalWiki Jsolinsky (talk) 04:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Jsolinsky You weren't blocked you mendacious shit, your talkpage was protected. Two different things. Brother you are within a poofteenth of an inch of tasting the blunt end of the banhammer so you might want to make yourself scarce for the forseeable future. --MtDBogan 04:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Jsolinsky Did you read beyond the word unwelcome? And since you apparently read MtD's talkpage, did you read my own thoughts on the matter? Because that's what I take away from those messages, not a "with us or against us" attitude but a unfortunate impression. Perhaps that initial impression was genuine, and you should leave. Perhaps everyone got off to the wrong foot, as it were, in which case staying around might be the right call. I have no shagging clue, and refuse to make those decisions for anyone other than myself. Decide what you will, expand your horizons, or don't, any way you slice it it's your call. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 04:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- For clarity, I'm really not asking GrammarCommie or MtD whether I should stay here. You have been as unambiguous as you intended to be. I'm inquiring as to the preference of the broader community. Taking RW policy at face value, what I'm doing here is advancing its mission. — Unsigned, by: User:Jsolinsky / talk / contribs
- @Jsolinsky Did you read beyond the word unwelcome? And since you apparently read MtD's talkpage, did you read my own thoughts on the matter? Because that's what I take away from those messages, not a "with us or against us" attitude but a unfortunate impression. Perhaps that initial impression was genuine, and you should leave. Perhaps everyone got off to the wrong foot, as it were, in which case staying around might be the right call. I have no shagging clue, and refuse to make those decisions for anyone other than myself. Decide what you will, expand your horizons, or don't, any way you slice it it's your call. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 04:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Jsolinsky You weren't blocked you mendacious shit, your talkpage was protected. Two different things. Brother you are within a poofteenth of an inch of tasting the blunt end of the banhammer so you might want to make yourself scarce for the forseeable future. --MtDBogan 04:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Matty the Damned Thank you for unblocking me MtD. Out of curiosity, is calling me a "bellend" and a "cunt" a standard RationalWiki expression of endearment? Or am I special? Maybe the Behavior Genetics folks are getting off lightly when they are called pseudoscientists on RationalWiki Jsolinsky (talk) 04:23, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
And I'm sure the broader community thanks you for your service. --MtDBogan 04:53, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Firstly, @Ariel31459 was very, very wrong to have changed the template on @Jsolinsky's talk page from Unwelcome to Welcome. That most definitely does count as editing another user's comments and that is a huge no-no. If Ariel thought that a user who had initially been given an unwelcome deserved a welcome, he should have left the Unwelcome template at the top of the page and added his own message with the Welcome template at the top of it in a new section on the page. That's happened before. Furthermore, on RationalWiki, a user's talk page is not his or her castle. It belongs to the entire community, not just the user. Messages should never be removed unless they are obviously vile trolling (you'll recognize it when you see it). Personally, I prefer to have all comments left on my talk page, up to and including death threats. Under the circumstances, however, I think the best thing is to allow Jsolinsky's talk page to remain without either a Welcome or an Unwelcome message so that we can move on. And whether or not Jsolinsky will prove to be a valuable contributor very much remains to be seen. Spud (talk) 05:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- All principles which I have upheld. My only objection was User:Jsolinsky have his talk page protected so he couldn't edit it. A well meaning but entirely unproductive action. --MtDBogan 05:10, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I probably would have done the same thing if I had been in GrammarCmmie's position. It looks like the protection was originally for 24 hours, right? Maybe a more symbolic protection time, say 30 minutes, would have been better to get across the message that you do not edit war and your talk page doesn't truly belong to you. Anyway, can we now agree that this storm in a teacup is over? Spud (talk) 05:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Totes. My position all along. Coop the cunt or leave him alone. --MtDBogan 05:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- There are still two issues:
- 1. There is still the question of what to do about all the Behavior Geneticists that are labeled pseudoscientists. Is there an existing community consensus document or discussion on when it is appropriate to call a prominent scientist a pseudoscientist? If not, is there a place where such discussions happen, other than individual pages? Jsolinsky (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- 2. GrammarCommie objects to me going to a page. Leaving a comment in talk about a change I plan to make. And then making that change after a few days if I receive no comment. I don't see anything here that suggests that there is something wrong with this. If somebody disagrees with my edit, then I expect them to at least leave a comment in Talk about why they reverted me. And I expect the comment to have something to do with the actual content of the page and my edit. But GrammarCommie has been reverting me because he says I made the changes without consensus and not leaving any substantive reason for the reversion in talk. I'm not sure how to resolve this. See, for example, the Noah Carl page, and specifically the talk section around "More dishonesty from Carl" Jsolinsky (talk) 13:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Spud It was 9 hours if I recall correctly. @Jsolinsky You removed a large chunk of sourced content after a mere statement of disagreement. Imagine if we let people do that to all our articles, it would be a bloody fucking madness. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @GrammarCommie @Spud @Jsolinsky @Matty the Damned This issue apparently hasn't died down, so I brought the Coop section I made, and then subsequently deleted, about it earlier back up. That would seem to be a more fitting place than this page. Ɖøn Ĵuan (talk) 13:49, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @GrammarCommie @Spud Time stamp of the talk page comment in my Noah Carl example: 17:11, 12 December 2018 (UTC) Time stamp of the page change: 18:02, 15 December 2018 Sure looks like three days to me. Jsolinsky (talk) 14:20, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- GrammarCommie reverted reverted with this comment in the edit log and nothing in talk: "Per your single comment in talk. It's easy to have a consensus of one." Jsolinsky (talk) 14:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Jsolinsky, on this wiki, do not take no response to mean no opposition. And do not remove large sections of sourced text. Now, I suggest that you take that discussion back to the Noah Carl talk page. @Don Juan I was going to say there isn't any need for a Coop case yet. Mind you, if things carry on like this... Spud (talk) 14:34, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- GrammarCommie reverted reverted with this comment in the edit log and nothing in talk: "Per your single comment in talk. It's easy to have a consensus of one." Jsolinsky (talk) 14:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Spud It was 9 hours if I recall correctly. @Jsolinsky You removed a large chunk of sourced content after a mere statement of disagreement. Imagine if we let people do that to all our articles, it would be a bloody fucking madness. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:39, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Totes. My position all along. Coop the cunt or leave him alone. --MtDBogan 05:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I probably would have done the same thing if I had been in GrammarCmmie's position. It looks like the protection was originally for 24 hours, right? Maybe a more symbolic protection time, say 30 minutes, would have been better to get across the message that you do not edit war and your talk page doesn't truly belong to you. Anyway, can we now agree that this storm in a teacup is over? Spud (talk) 05:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- All principles which I have upheld. My only objection was User:Jsolinsky have his talk page protected so he couldn't edit it. A well meaning but entirely unproductive action. --MtDBogan 05:10, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Spud It has occurred to me that the welcome message could be added in addition to the unwelcome message. So, we regard the unwelcome emblem to be no more than an individual opinion? I wasn't aware. Fine. I recommend discontinuing the practice. It has already been established that there is a dwindling interest in making edits to this wiki. I would rather see users arguing over bad edits, than a continued decline in the number of edits.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Ariel31459 No, the Unwelcome template shouldn't really be just one editor's opinion. It should only be put on the talk pages of new users who are clearly going against the community standards. However, we all make mistakes. It is possible that someone could have been too harsh in putting the Unwelcome template on the page of a new user who's maybe been a bit of a pain but hasn't done anything seriously wrong. And we can but hope that new users might change their ways after getting that message. In those cases, it would be possible to give the Welcome message to someone who's already received the Unwelcome message before. Spud (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
The way I see things: This site has defamatory attacks against numerous well published scientists and their papers that support results that do not conform with the views of the left. (e.g. Richard Haier, Linda Gottfredson, basically all of behavior genetics, etc.). If those attacks were supported with specific dissections of fallacious arguments, it could still represent a positive contribution. But overwhelmingly the logic seems to be: "This person's research could be used to support results I disagree with", and worse: "This person has worked with somebody whose research could be used to support results I disagree with". Such fallacious arguments are anti-scientific, and undermine the good work this site has done on matters like evolution and climate change. If it is OK for RationalWiki to disregard an entire branch of science because of its implications, why can't a creationist do the same. I think the answer is clear: Rational inquiry requires that research and evidence always trump belief. It is never OK to disregard an entire branch of science. This is true even if the branch in question is ultimately proved wrong, as so many past branches have been.
Much of the argumentation seems to be: "These people are crypto racists, therefore nothing they say matters". But most of these individuals have explicitly declaimed racist and supremacist behaviors, and indeed have long records of behavior which make no sense if they actually held racist views. The study of intelligence, and its heritability or lack thereof is an obviously interesting topic. It hardly requires any racial animus to seek to study it. Even if they were racists (and surely some are), ad hominem is not a valid basis for declaring peer reviewed research to be invalid. The scientific method must prevail even when one side of an argument is represented by somebody truly reprehensible.
I initially thought that this wiki would be biased against the inclusion of defamatory statements against living people. It is clear at this point that this is not the case. Indeed the path to removing defamatory content without being accused of violating the rules of this wiki is shockingly effort intensive. Before any edit is made, I must contact the previous editors, have a discussion and achieve consensus. In the case of many of these pages, it is clear that the previous editors have extremely strong ideological biases. This is hardly surprising. Defamatory articles come from people with strong views against the defamed. It appears to me that the effect and likely intent of the policies (as enforced) is to retain defamatory content except in the most egregious cases, and to generally be biased against removing such content. It is my suspicion that even if I were to expend the effort needed, other means would be used to preserve the status quo. It does not make sense for me to make this effort, and indeed I would question the thought process of anyone who concluded otherwise. RW may be broken, but it doesn't want to be fixed. I am very pleased to have come to this realization before I spent any meaningful effort here. Jsolinsky (talk) 02:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
A small bit of housekeeping. While I think this site is unnecessarily defamatory to Noah Carl, I would like to make it clear that I am NOT including him, when I refer to "well published scientists". His page just happened to be the place where some of this came to a head. Jsolinsky (talk) 02:49, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
New Block Reason
"Troll?" How do we define this? RoninMacbeth (talk) 08:29, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- An internet troll is someone who is just trying to elicit an emotional reaction from other internet users, either by making them angry or upset. I really don't think that making "troll" a specific blocking reason is necessary. Most of the attempts at trolling in the Saloon Bar are pretty pathetic ("Jesus is the reason for the season, you atheists") and are best handled by ignoring them. The more persistent trolls will all commit blockable offences like vandalism or harassment and will get blocked for those reasons. Spud (talk) 12:24, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's a quick and easy reason to block users that post comments intended to not start discussion but to merely provoke and rouse feelings i.e. a troll. It's a quick and easy reason to use, and I don't see a problem for it. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 04:08, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hmmm. OK. I was thinking about "Troll" as a reason for a long block. I get the impression that LGM was thinking about it as a reason for short block. OK. That could work. Spud (talk) 04:38, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, it depends. IMO, long-term blocks for one or two instances of trolling are disfavored. If there are 1 or 2 instances, then you should just give them a pi×1hr block and a warning on their talkpage, but if they persist afterwards, then use "troll" as a long-term block reason. --Goatspeed. Watch meCircularR
asoningSee my experiments 20:03, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Well, it depends. IMO, long-term blocks for one or two instances of trolling are disfavored. If there are 1 or 2 instances, then you should just give them a pi×1hr block and a warning on their talkpage, but if they persist afterwards, then use "troll" as a long-term block reason. --Goatspeed. Watch meCircularR
- Hmmm. OK. I was thinking about "Troll" as a reason for a long block. I get the impression that LGM was thinking about it as a reason for short block. OK. That could work. Spud (talk) 04:38, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's a quick and easy reason to block users that post comments intended to not start discussion but to merely provoke and rouse feelings i.e. a troll. It's a quick and easy reason to use, and I don't see a problem for it. --It's-a me,
There are different levels of trolling obviously and they require different treatments. The one-off JAQ or what have you is probably not even worth bothering with. On the other hand, an argument could be made — and I've made it — is that user:RobSmith has been trolling RationalWiki for more than a decade. Bongolian (talk) 20:27, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
How do I get my IP removed?
Sorry, new to Rationalwiki and Wiki in general and accidentally edited a page not logged in and had no idea what I was doing. — Unsigned, by: Flaberjake / talk / contribs
- I don't know which page you're talking about or why you think it should be removed. Bongolian (talk) 03:38, 10 January 2019 (UTC) Looks like Cosmikdebris already fixed this. Bongolian (talk) 03:39, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm referring to this page, My IP is before his fix; that was before I had an account and had no idea what I was doing. Sorry and thank you! — Unsigned, by: Flaberjake / talk / contribs
- Sorry, I mean hide. Is that possible? Thank you. I know over on the tech support page someone had his IP hidden, and I commented there too but I haven't received a reply.
- So there's nothing you guys can do? — Unsigned, by: Flaberjake / talk / contribs
- So far as I know, there's no rule against us suppressing an IP if the user requests it. Am I right? RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:43, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Renaming request
Hi,
For personal (and potentially also privacy) reasons, I'd like my user to be renamed to "CircularReasoning". Thanks. --Goatspeed. Watch meCircularR
asoningSee my experiments 19:52, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Done.@BadPiggies 9 Bongolian (talk) 20:14, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
My talk page
To the moderators: @Bongolian, @DuceMoosolini, @LeftyGreenMario, @RWRW, @RoninMacbeth, @Spud
ikanreed posted this message on my talk page:
“”You really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really should consider not being a dumb fucker, and changing every one of your views about everything.
|
| — ikanreed 21:51, 22 January 2019 (UTC) |
Since I don't see any way in which such message could be interpreted if not as a provocation that would never lead to anything good, and since at RationalWiki:Community_Standards I read: "users are permitted to delete posts from their own talk pages at their discretion, being responsible for any abuse of this permission", I decided to remove such post. However, subsequently DuceMoosolini reverted my edit, restoring ikanreed's provocation.
Why is it so?
I ask that ikanreed's post will be removed from my talk page. Thinker(unlicensed) 14:46, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- To be honest I've never seen the rationale in people not being allowed to remove stuff from their own talk page. --RWRW (talk) 15:02, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- In the context of this wiki, I don't think you have a case for removing that comment. Comments like that on your talk page let other users know who you are and what you've done here. I still take the view that to be a successful RationalWiki editor, you have to be pretty thick skinned. Spud (talk) 15:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- On the other hand, that's a harmless thing to ask for. On the other other hand, I really do want you to at least consider doing so. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:44, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Spud "Comments like that on your talk page let other users know who you are and what you've done here."
- That comment only shows that I made ikanreed so pissed that he has the urge to keep repeating "stop being a dumb fucker" to me. How is that a valuable information that all other users should know, except if the intent is creating division between the users and incentivizing personal attacks over constructive dialogues? Thinker(unlicensed) 17:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- If this were a substantive comment, I might be more hesitant to say that it can be removed. As it is, I think it's reasonable to remove it. Let's hear from @DuceMoosolini before proceeding. Bongolian (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- (I already removed it before I even saw this meticulously crafted whining). ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:06, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- If this were a substantive comment, I might be more hesitant to say that it can be removed. As it is, I think it's reasonable to remove it. Let's hear from @DuceMoosolini before proceeding. Bongolian (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- On the other hand, that's a harmless thing to ask for. On the other other hand, I really do want you to at least consider doing so. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:44, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- In the context of this wiki, I don't think you have a case for removing that comment. Comments like that on your talk page let other users know who you are and what you've done here. I still take the view that to be a successful RationalWiki editor, you have to be pretty thick skinned. Spud (talk) 15:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
OK. Bongolian (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- @UnlicensedThinker If someone flops a gratuitous insult on your talk page, you can go to their talk page and leave a fuck-you-very-much note. Ariel31459 (talk) 18:34, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- @UnlicensedThinker Yeah, I think I'll be less stringent about the "don't remove stuff from your own talkpage" rule so long as the comments reverted are simple insults like this one was.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 18:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC) - OK, good.
- @Ariel31459 As a general rule, that's really unwise since it would probably lead to diatribes. Besides, I sincerely don't see what's the point of insulting and why some users have this irresistible necessity. Thinker(unlicensed) 18:55, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'm glad you think so. I suggest it as an alternative to waking up the moderators. They need their sleep.Ariel31459 (talk) 19:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Probably just best to revert unless there's a more substantial argument in there. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 19:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, now I have to object. I have a serious and completely dissociated with "insult" point to make here. UT needs to cut his bullshit out, and if you're gonna characterize "stop being a dumbass" as a meaningless insult, then I'm putting it the fuck back. UT has a seriously bullshit laden disruptive streak centered on posting bigoted right wing bullshit then crying like a victim when people respond appropriately. Don't fucking baby him.
- Probably just best to revert unless there's a more substantial argument in there. --It's-a me,
- I'm glad you think so. I suggest it as an alternative to waking up the moderators. They need their sleep.Ariel31459 (talk) 19:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- @UnlicensedThinker Yeah, I think I'll be less stringent about the "don't remove stuff from your own talkpage" rule so long as the comments reverted are simple insults like this one was.
“”Person A: [bigoted statement]
Person B: The fuck? Person C: Now, now, let's have civility. Dear C: You came in one statement too late. |
| —John Scalzi> |
- Don't go down this fucking route. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:45, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Not asking for civility, but it'll be better in the future to refer back to the argument where you responded to. Otherwise, I have to check UnlicensedThinker's edit history to find out what really set you off, and that can be a little annoying. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 19:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Not asking for civility, but it'll be better in the future to refer back to the argument where you responded to. Otherwise, I have to check UnlicensedThinker's edit history to find out what really set you off, and that can be a little annoying. --It's-a me,
- Don't go down this fucking route. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:45, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. There was no context or explanation. If you, ikanreed, had explained yourself, it would have been different. Bongolian (talk) 20:17, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that's fair, because you could literally(Actually literally) click on any random changeset in his history and it's one of two things: bigoted bullshit or crying about injustices delivered upon him. That's actually a serious challenge, find the counter-example. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:41, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- OK, but let's say a year from now after those SaloonBar postings have long been archived, your talk page posting may still be there and unarchived. It makes it very hard to figure out what you were talking about without at least a link. Bongolian (talk) 20:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Again, just a request for diff links, I don't think that's unreasonable. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 02:47, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Feeling so put upon, by these requests that I justify thinking he's kind of a consistent shithead. But fine, there's a consistent jaqqing off about ring wing bigoted talking points. HIS ENTIRE HISTORY IS THAT. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DIFF. Except the whiney ones like this one where he's like "people are so mean to me". This is the entirety of his "work" here except one, and I mean one, question about pseudoscience in dentistry. Can I please get my benefit of the doubt back? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:32, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Again, just a request for diff links, I don't think that's unreasonable. --It's-a me,
- OK, but let's say a year from now after those SaloonBar postings have long been archived, your talk page posting may still be there and unarchived. It makes it very hard to figure out what you were talking about without at least a link. Bongolian (talk) 20:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Not sure what's the big issue here. People regularly insult each other. People also regularly remove or collapse unpleasant/provocative comments on talkpages. *shrugs* 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Loss of Tech status
I can see being revoked of Tech powers, but since when did I abuse my powers before today? Wait, ah, I see. You, @LeftGreenMario got their side of the story without proper context. I`m going to contest all of the shit they've written about me except for the abuse of power done today:
- That category called "c*nt" was created before, and I don't really see how recreating a joke category is an abuse of power.
- "IP banned someone for minor reasons" You mean banning people for a few days for spamming? The last time I permabanned an IP was months ago, and I've since stopped doing it.
- "Gave sysop to active trolls" I wasn't aware that the person in question was an active troll, he pulled a fast one on me that made me think it was a sockpuppet account of @Shabidoo.
- "Archived a bunch of Saloon Bar" still in use: Nope, that shit hadn't been updated in days and made the whole Bar unavigable.
I contest your reasons for removing my Tech status on the grounds that none of the above count as flagrant abuses of power, and furthermore, the only conceivable abuse of power, today, was done under duress due to rage. I can see a temporary revocing of my rights, but not a permanent one.
I also contest that the reason Discord grew into a shitfest was solely my fault. I blew up in anger because I was being harassed, end of story. @LeftyGreenMario @DuceMoosolini @Bongolian @RWRW @Spud @GrammarCommie— Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 20:46, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- One more thing, that filter was meant to block spam, I fucked up with the coding. — Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 20:52, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think anything you did warrants worse than a slap on the wrist. Provided you promise to exercise better judgement in the future, I think your tech rights should be returned by, at the absolute latest, the end of the week.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 20:58, 23 January 2019 (UTC)- I don't know anything about the discord drama or whatever that list of shit was that you posted; I'm just referring to the sysoprevoke.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 20:59, 23 January 2019 (UTC)- The short version is that sysoprevoke ain't a joke. That we techs have it available to assign is not really intentional, only mods (and staff under very very very very very ultra limited circumstances) are supposed to give it, and that you can is more a side effect of the umbrella powers given. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly. I did fuck up this one time, but usually I`m very careful not to abuse my power. I'll exercise better judgement in the future. Pure rage can blindside reason, and they tested my patience one too many times. I`m normally a very patient person, but that cyberbullying was just too much. I was being ganged up on, any person would get angry at that. What really7 pissed me off was their hypocrisy and psychological projection. Anyways, I was an idiot for doing so, and I accept the consequences, although I don't think I should permanently lose my Tech status. — Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass
- I don't think you should lose it permanently, but Discord drama usually isn't applicable to wiki activity. Keep this in mind, Discord and Wiki are mostly independent entities with their own moderation and rules and such. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 23:58, 23 January 2019 (UTC) - Fair enough. — Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass 00:24, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think you should lose it permanently, but Discord drama usually isn't applicable to wiki activity. Keep this in mind, Discord and Wiki are mostly independent entities with their own moderation and rules and such. --It's-a me,
- Exactly. I did fuck up this one time, but usually I`m very careful not to abuse my power. I'll exercise better judgement in the future. Pure rage can blindside reason, and they tested my patience one too many times. I`m normally a very patient person, but that cyberbullying was just too much. I was being ganged up on, any person would get angry at that. What really7 pissed me off was their hypocrisy and psychological projection. Anyways, I was an idiot for doing so, and I accept the consequences, although I don't think I should permanently lose my Tech status. — Ɖøn Ĵuan Harass
- The short version is that sysoprevoke ain't a joke. That we techs have it available to assign is not really intentional, only mods (and staff under very very very very very ultra limited circumstances) are supposed to give it, and that you can is more a side effect of the umbrella powers given. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know anything about the discord drama or whatever that list of shit was that you posted; I'm just referring to the sysoprevoke.
- I don't think anything you did warrants worse than a slap on the wrist. Provided you promise to exercise better judgement in the future, I think your tech rights should be returned by, at the absolute latest, the end of the week.
It's hilarious comedy that I some how have the free time to fuck around with sock puppets. Could you link the discussion please? ShabiDOO 22:26, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Shabidoo it was an impersonation account named 'Shaibidoo' (now renamed to User:Trolly McTrollface). --RWRW (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- I am against the unilateral revocation of rights above Autopatrolled. At the same time, @Don Juan, given sysoprevoke's new bearning in the eligibility of users to stand for mod or Board elections, sysoprevoke should also not be issued unilaterally. @LeftyGreenMario, what transpired between 19:56 and 20:23 to make you remove his powers? RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I would like to clarify that it is reasonable to unilaterally remove Sysop status from Sysops who have not established themselves (Newbies) and who are causing a problem. This is per the Sysop guide (RationalWiki:Sysop guide#User rights management). Bongolian (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- @RoninMacbeth Don Juan (who is not the Discord admin) had a spat with several other people on Discord, and he not only banned one user on the wiki, attempted a permaban and attached to sysoprevoke. You can check the logs but nothing what that user did deserved a sysoprevoke or a permaban. Removing tech was my response for abuse of sysoprevoke; being unable to control emotions and then pushing buttons are not traits I would like to see from a tech. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 19:06, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- @RoninMacbeth Don Juan (who is not the Discord admin) had a spat with several other people on Discord, and he not only banned one user on the wiki, attempted a permaban and attached to sysoprevoke. You can check the logs but nothing what that user did deserved a sysoprevoke or a permaban. Removing tech was my response for abuse of sysoprevoke; being unable to control emotions and then pushing buttons are not traits I would like to see from a tech. --It's-a me,
- I would like to clarify that it is reasonable to unilaterally remove Sysop status from Sysops who have not established themselves (Newbies) and who are causing a problem. This is per the Sysop guide (RationalWiki:Sysop guide#User rights management). Bongolian (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Collapse
To the moderators: @Bongolian, @DuceMoosolini, @LeftyGreenMario, @RWRW, @RoninMacbeth, @Spud
I posted on the Saloon Bar this news from Business Insider, which reveals that Nathan Phillips lied about being a Vietnam veteran.
@Ikanreed collapsed my post, replacing it with the text: "native veteran isn't veteran enough for racist sea lion's personal taste".
Now:
I) In RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Talk_pages it is written: "users should not delete or change another user's comments on a talk or discussion page, with the following exceptions:
- Obviously vile comments made for the purposes of trolling, and of a user on his/her own talk-page, as described above.
- Posts from users who have been blocked from the site, but are circumventing the block by using an alternate IP address or sockpuppet account. Deletion of such posts is mandatory, as this is considered necessary for the proper enforcement of blocks.
- Spam and copypasta posts.
- Content that makes the talk page awkward to read or navigate, such as unsigned comments (use the unsigned template), messy formatting and footnotes (which should not be used on discussion pages)."
Since I do not see how my post could be considered (1), (2), (3), or (4), I think that ikanreed violated the community standards and the moderators should take some actions, at least including the removal of the collapse template.
II) I challenge ikanreed to explain how is reporting that somebody lied about being a Vietnam veteran an act of "racism".
Thinker(unlicensed) 16:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- I see nothing wrong with your comment, @UnlicensedThinker. I think it should remain and not be collapsed. Bongolian (talk) 18:11, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see anything wrong either, and I support uncollapsing your comment. I'll do it myself if no other mod objects.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 18:22, 26 January 2019 (UTC)- I also endorse uncollapsing it. --RWRW (talk) 18:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- I endorse uncollapsing for now. At the same time, I also would like @Ikanreed to explain his action. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- No collapse. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 19:48, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- No. I won't defend myself again.
- I collapsed it because it was obviously stupid and pointless for the reasons I gave.
- I don't want to argue here, because it's stupid and pointless rules lawyering in a peak-sea lion way. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 04:06, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- No collapse. --It's-a me,
- I endorse uncollapsing for now. At the same time, I also would like @Ikanreed to explain his action. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- I also endorse uncollapsing it. --RWRW (talk) 18:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see anything wrong either, and I support uncollapsing your comment. I'll do it myself if no other mod objects.
nobs complaint
- I have a similar complaint about at least three collapsed comments of mine. None violate Community Standards. They all were collaspsed just prior to the recent Coop case. nobs piss in my ear 22:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Nobs, you should not get a free pass for your bigoted bullshit trolling. You engaged in Holocaust denial on your talk page, here's how you engaged in Holocaust denial:
- You falsely stated that George Soros was a Nazi sympathizer, "That Soros was a Nazi collaborator is indisputable." (User talk:RobSmith#Pissgate).[1]
- Soros was in fact a victim of the Nazis because he was a minor (ages 13 to 14) in hiding during the Nazi occupation of Hungary.[2]
- You were therefore casting blame on the victim.
- Blaming the victim is in fact a form of Holocaust denial, according to three different experts on genocide.[3][4]
Bongolian (talk) 23:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- You're full of shit. Read the discussion. I explicitly said, more than once, it is idiocy to say Soros was a Nazi sympathizer. WTF? nobs piss in my ear 01:11, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- And yet, there is this defamatory and vile edit on Conservapedia by none other than RobSmith that is still there today, "He is a naturalized American citizen, born in Hungary where he worked for the Nazis as a teenager, fingering and looting his compatriot Jews."[5][6] Bongolian (talk) 02:23, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Why don't you include the citation? It's cited properly. nobs piss in my ear 03:46, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- We at RationalWiki are "PROULY FUNDIGD AN CONTROLED BY GEORG SOROS", so go fuck yourself, Nobs. For those who care to read the transcript upon which Nobs bases his delusions, it can be found here. Bongolian (talk) 05:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- And here. nobs piss in my ear 06:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Bongolian Could you please split this section, separating the problem raised by nobs from mine? (Just putting something like "==Collapse nobs==" before the first comment of nobs) I have still one thing to say but I'm afraid now the discussion would get too confused (and I don't want to mix it with anything about Holocaust denial). Thanks Thinker(unlicensed) 08:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- And here. nobs piss in my ear 06:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- We at RationalWiki are "PROULY FUNDIGD AN CONTROLED BY GEORG SOROS", so go fuck yourself, Nobs. For those who care to read the transcript upon which Nobs bases his delusions, it can be found here. Bongolian (talk) 05:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Why don't you include the citation? It's cited properly. nobs piss in my ear 03:46, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- And yet, there is this defamatory and vile edit on Conservapedia by none other than RobSmith that is still there today, "He is a naturalized American citizen, born in Hungary where he worked for the Nazis as a teenager, fingering and looting his compatriot Jews."[5][6] Bongolian (talk) 02:23, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Seriously, just collapse perennial nutters and get on with your life. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:28, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Aeschylus
I have blocked Aeschylus and removed the sysop status I gave to their account three days ago in response mainly to their comments on RationalWiki:Articles for deletion/Emil Kirkegaard. It would seem to me eminently obvious that it would be unwise for them to continue using that account, and that external persons may continue to pressure them to delete various articles. The situation would become disruptive, if indeed it hasn't already (in my opinion it has). This doesn't in any way prejudice their returning incognito, should they wish to do so. — Dysk (contribs) 20:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- Technically, he hasn't made any legal threats. But he is dragging us into his legal affairs, so...eh? RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- It is entirely appropriate to ban and desysop. If anything, it provides him a degree of legal protection, because it explicitly makes it clear he has no responsibility for the state of those articles, though we cannot, of course, prevent any of his previous edits to those articles being deemed defamatory. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:51, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
There's socks everywhere. Socks of mike, socks of abd, socks of that other guy who hates abd. It might be a good idea to close the AfDs sometime because we already know the articles won't be deleted. — Dysk (contribs) 20:57, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, close all the Aeschylus AfDs. Socks of banned accounts should be permabanned when identifiable. Abd said that he had many socks just before he was permabanned. Bongolian (talk) 21:08, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- Just noting that connected to this, both Abd ul-Rahman Lomax, Michael Coombs, and their talk pages have been protected with sysop only access. To be fair this is probably a good idea given the recent low-level disruption connected to this matter. Hopefully this conflict has mostly burned out by now anyway but I will keep an eye on it. — Dysk (contribs) 15:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Straw poll for moderators on trolls
@DuceMoosolini @LeftyGreenMario @RoninMacbeth @RWRW @Spud Should a chronic troll be allowed to have sysop privileges? Is chronic trolling sufficient reason for demopping? Could it be a contributory reason for demopping?
FYI, here is our current definition of trolling characteristics:
- Deliberately angering people.
- Making people act or say things that are considered obvious causing the individual to appear stupid to others witnessing the discussion.
- Breaking the normal flow of debate/discussion.
- Disrupting the “smooth” operation of the site.
- Deliberately being annoying for the sake of being obnoxious. For instance, using abusive names to refer to all the members on the site.
- Pretending to be profoundly ignorant or stupid, gleaning some weird sense of having "won" when other users subsequently come to believe this.
- Making itself the main topic of interest or discussion. (Rarely a troll may do small amounts of productive work to disguise its true intentions.)
Bongolian (talk) 05:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I know why you are asking us this. If you want to demop him, bring it to the coop. RoninMacbeth (talk) 05:37, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Is this about Nobs by any chance? --RWRW (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- With all due disrespect to the trolls, being a sysop has absolutely zero bearing on any of those issues. — Dysk (contribs) 13:09, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Of course a chronic troll should not be a sysop. And I have to agree with RoninMacbeth. Start a coop case. And I wish you luck. Spud (talk) 13:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- All of this should be obvious. I will bide my time. Bongolian (talk) 17:37, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with Bongo.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 18:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Agree with Bongo.
- All of this should be obvious. I will bide my time. Bongolian (talk) 17:37, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Of course a chronic troll should not be a sysop. And I have to agree with RoninMacbeth. Start a coop case. And I wish you luck. Spud (talk) 13:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- With all due disrespect to the trolls, being a sysop has absolutely zero bearing on any of those issues. — Dysk (contribs) 13:09, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Is this about Nobs by any chance? --RWRW (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Other than trolling, I know of two things things that he did recently that I consider worthy of Sysoprevoke. I only want to do this once, so I want to make sure that it's a solid case before bringing it to the Coop. That's why I was asking for your opinions about trolling. Bongolian (talk) 18:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hard position: Sysoprevoke sucks and should be used iff someone abuses sysop powers. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:58, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- That position opens us up to chronic troll infestations. Bongolian (talk) 19:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
We've already got those and they're respected members of the community.I guess? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)- I take a wait and see approach, but I also see little reason to give Rob any sysop tools. First, give me some backstory, why was Rob given sysop tools? Is it for the shits and giggles? --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 01:40, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- nobs was originally given the mob by @PolarBearInTheJungle (now inactive) in 2009. Between then and 2013 he was desysoped about 30 times, but each time he was given it back. People stopped desysoping him in 2013. — Dysk (contribs) 02:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- That position opens us up to chronic troll infestations. Bongolian (talk) 19:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
Since when has nobs abused sysop powers? — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 05:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think he has. I think Bongolian just wants to sanction him for being, in his words, "a chronic troll." For some reason, however, he is opting for promotion over banning. RoninMacbeth (talk) 07:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, it really does go beyond trolling. I don't want to lay out my case until I'm ready though. Bongolian (talk) 07:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- And we eagerly wait for it. Don't fuck it up. RoninMacbeth (talk) 08:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Then just ignore him. He hasn't abused his powers in such a way that we should revoke them, hell he barely uses them at all. He's a harmless old fool, don't let him get to you. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 11:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am pretty sure the idea is to put nobs in sysoprevoke so he can't become a mod. — Dysk (contribs) 13:43, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- We had a near-miss last election, if I recall correctly. If we had gone with FPTP, he might have been a mod instead of me.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 13:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)- Then maybe we should create protocol wherein a mod can be stripped of their power. I don't support putting Nobs into sysoprevoke because of potential future issues when he hasn't abused his powers as a sysop. In fact this whole thing is simply preposterous, I like Nobs just as much as the next guy, but I don't support sysoprevoking him when he's done nothing wrong, and that is putting it lightly. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 14:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's not like we're banning him. Nobs can live just fine without sysop. He doesn't need it, and we don't need him to have it.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 14:25, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- It's not like we're banning him. Nobs can live just fine without sysop. He doesn't need it, and we don't need him to have it.
- Then maybe we should create protocol wherein a mod can be stripped of their power. I don't support putting Nobs into sysoprevoke because of potential future issues when he hasn't abused his powers as a sysop. In fact this whole thing is simply preposterous, I like Nobs just as much as the next guy, but I don't support sysoprevoking him when he's done nothing wrong, and that is putting it lightly. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 14:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- We had a near-miss last election, if I recall correctly. If we had gone with FPTP, he might have been a mod instead of me.
- I am pretty sure the idea is to put nobs in sysoprevoke so he can't become a mod. — Dysk (contribs) 13:43, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Then just ignore him. He hasn't abused his powers in such a way that we should revoke them, hell he barely uses them at all. He's a harmless old fool, don't let him get to you. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 11:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- And we eagerly wait for it. Don't fuck it up. RoninMacbeth (talk) 08:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- No, it really does go beyond trolling. I don't want to lay out my case until I'm ready though. Bongolian (talk) 07:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- The next mod election is going to be a joyous occasion. I can picture it now. This is so totally not sarcasm. Regardless, for future reference the coop case is now at RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive80. — Dysk (contribs) 10:52, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Election Preparations
@DuceMoosolini @LeftyGreenMario @Bongolian @RWRW @Spud
So, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I believe that this election cycle (particularly the Democratic primary) will bring a lot of edit conflicts, possibly along the lines of the I/P Clusterfuck. Ergo, we should probably think about what topics of discussion will be likely to provoke HCM and monitor discussions closely. Let's just take some precaution. RoninMacbeth (talk) 06:45, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @RoninMacbeth, sorry if I'm being dense. What is "I/P" here? Bongolian (talk) 07:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Israel-Palestine. It was a huge deal before I came here, and apparently it sort of got absorbed and/or morphed into a huge Sanders vs. Clinton conflict here, which was only just dying down when I joined. But it drove a lot of users away, such as Paravant and AgingHippie. Fuzzy would know more. The point is, we should be prepared if something similar happens this time. RoninMacbeth (talk) 07:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Should we watch the Cortez person's page? --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 07:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh yeah. I guess I didn't connect it with the US election cycle. Bongolian (talk) 07:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Now that I remember, the graph posted of our edit history suggested that spikes in activity coincided with the election cycles as well (spikes in 2008, 2012, and 2016, with dropoffs soon after). RoninMacbeth (talk) 07:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Was there any pages that experienced conflict during the last election? (other than the obvious)--RWRW (talk) 09:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- WIGO World was a big one, I think. There was a lot of argument about whether or not Glenn Greenwald was a reliable source, and a similar argument about the New York Times. Bernie Sanders was another one. I'll see if I can find more examples, the archives for ATIM and the coop ought to have more information. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- And yes, we should monitor the page for AOC. Just to be sure. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:42, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- If you could all just realize ikanreed is always on the totally right side of any upcoming arguments you'd realize how much easier moderation could be. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, moderating a wiki consisting solely of you would be very easy indeed. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- So, you don't think he would be hard on himself. eh?Ariel31459 (talk) 18:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, moderating a wiki consisting solely of you would be very easy indeed. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- If you could all just realize ikanreed is always on the totally right side of any upcoming arguments you'd realize how much easier moderation could be. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Was there any pages that experienced conflict during the last election? (other than the obvious)--RWRW (talk) 09:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Now that I remember, the graph posted of our edit history suggested that spikes in activity coincided with the election cycles as well (spikes in 2008, 2012, and 2016, with dropoffs soon after). RoninMacbeth (talk) 07:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh yeah. I guess I didn't connect it with the US election cycle. Bongolian (talk) 07:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- The Israel/Palestine conflict metastasized around one particularly prolific and opinionated editor. I don't remember Sanders/Clinton being as big of a deal as the I/P debate was here. There were other shit storms involving loud editors, for example, Gamergate and Ryulong. With respect to the 2020 elections, it is important, I think, to keep RationalWiki focused on missional topics and not let it overly devolve into politics. Cosmikdebris (talk) 23:50, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Bongolian (talk) 00:06, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, but in spite of his tendentious obsession(or maybe because of it?), RyuLong was pretty much spot on in his analysis and facts about GamerGate. I still feel bad about how that one ended. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh... I remember that. I regret starting the Coop case in question that led to Ryulong giving up his sysopship and leaving in disgust. I think it's best if we left it in the past, all things considered. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 16:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- The point of this discussion is how to keep it in the past. Any bad blood from I/P should be left in the past, and we should try to avert making any new grudges. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh... I remember that. I regret starting the Coop case in question that led to Ryulong giving up his sysopship and leaving in disgust. I think it's best if we left it in the past, all things considered. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 16:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, but in spite of his tendentious obsession(or maybe because of it?), RyuLong was pretty much spot on in his analysis and facts about GamerGate. I still feel bad about how that one ended. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Should we watch the Cortez person's page? --It's-a me,
- Israel-Palestine. It was a huge deal before I came here, and apparently it sort of got absorbed and/or morphed into a huge Sanders vs. Clinton conflict here, which was only just dying down when I joined. But it drove a lot of users away, such as Paravant and AgingHippie. Fuzzy would know more. The point is, we should be prepared if something similar happens this time. RoninMacbeth (talk) 07:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
i got no good advice sorry dude Fuzzy. Cat. Potato! (talk/stalk) 04:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Thanks for thinking about this, though. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario Yes, I think we should watch "the Cortez person's page." (LOL!) I'm currently one of the main contributors of that page. I can always use an extra hand keeping up the quality. Nerd (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- I was afraid to flub up the name, and it's a pain navigating in mobile. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 07:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- @LeftyGreenMario This is where her initials AOC come in handy. (Is it wrong if we were to refer to her as simply Ms. Cortez?) Nerd (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Nerd If by wrong you mean imperfectly polite, then yes. Use Ocasio Cortez unless you mean the conquistador.Ariel31459 (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Ariel31459 I suspected that this was a rather common surname. Apparently, I'm not that far off. Anyway, context should make it clear whom we are referring to. Nerd (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- BREAKING NEWS: Hernan Cortez rises from grave, declares candidacy for Republican nomination! RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Ariel31459 I suspected that this was a rather common surname. Apparently, I'm not that far off. Anyway, context should make it clear whom we are referring to. Nerd (talk) 18:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Nerd If by wrong you mean imperfectly polite, then yes. Use Ocasio Cortez unless you mean the conquistador.Ariel31459 (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @LeftyGreenMario This is where her initials AOC come in handy. (Is it wrong if we were to refer to her as simply Ms. Cortez?) Nerd (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Logicnsuch Sockpuppets
We've been seeing a rise in the number of Logicnsuch sockpuppets who are all "asking" who he is. The questions, of course, are a)Are these sockpuppets in fact sockpuppets and b)How to respond? Should we, perhaps, institute a prohibition in new accounts mentioning Logicnsuch? Such as, perhaps, getting the techs to add his name to the edit filter? Please discuss. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Repurposed an old filter. Should do the job. — Palaeonictis Fossil beds 17:02, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Glad to see someone else noticed. I am reasonably sure everyone mentioning Logicnsuch is them. I am also rapidly coming to the conclusion the same thing is happening with Mike/Abd/Smith, whom are equally annoying. I turned on Special:AbuseFilter/2 now. :) — Dysk (contribs) 19:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
roll back
is there a way to tag a revision when you roll back indicating the reason? i just did and i didnt see an option for that, and it didnt really warrant having to engage with the fucknut to explain myself AMassiveGay (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- You have to "undo" rather than rollback, if you want to add an edit summary. — Dysk (contribs) 23:10, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Bongolian, again
The Conservapedia:RobSmith page is about a living person. Bongolian made at least two totally ficticious claims today:
- That RobSmith is a birther.
- That RobSmith relies on Brietbart and WND.
Both claims are demonstrably without merit.
RobSmith removed the birther movement bullshit from at least a half dozen CP articles, no easy task. This can be seen in these two edits before and after on 8 August 2018. That's only one page. I would have removed them earlier, but most occurred over a period of time when I was banned. August 2018 was the first opportunity I had to correct them.
As to Brietbart & WND, if I've used WND three times in 15 years I'd be amazed. I don't read it. Brietbart I rarely use. The claim Bongolian makes that I cited Brietbart for a birther claim is false. There are Brietbart citations on other subjects in the edit Bongolian provides, but those citations were made by others. I was organizing and rearranging the page.
I don't mind criticism, I welcome it. But false and baseless statements are not appreciated. Please, somebody call your attack dog off. nobsI'm all yea'res 23:32, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bongolian If nobs' claims are true, then you should edit the article accordingly.
DuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictatormoderator 01:28, 4 March 2019 (UTC)- Should we take @Bongolian to the Coop, then? This continued harassment is uncalled for, and will only get worse and cause another case of HCM if left untreated. — Übermensch Pierce through the wonder of amazement at the ubermensch 02:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be happy if he just takes out the uncited junk he put in today. It's an opportunity to mitigate a coop case. nobsI'm all yea'res 03:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nobs: I quoted exactly what you said on the Conservapedia:RobSmith page. You engaged in Birtherism in two instances (November 2018 and February 2019), one of which is still present on the Conservapedia page. 1) If you changed your mind about Birtherism, that's admirable, but this false statement made by you is still on the Conservapedia Barack Obama page, "The Birther movement was started by Obama himself." 2) Conservapedian user "Timber" removed your birth certificate watermark bullshit, not you.[7] Bongolian (talk) 03:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Show my supposed citation to Brietbart. nobsI'm all yea'res 05:25, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nobs: I quoted exactly what you said on the Conservapedia:RobSmith page. You engaged in Birtherism in two instances (November 2018 and February 2019), one of which is still present on the Conservapedia page. 1) If you changed your mind about Birtherism, that's admirable, but this false statement made by you is still on the Conservapedia Barack Obama page, "The Birther movement was started by Obama himself." 2) Conservapedian user "Timber" removed your birth certificate watermark bullshit, not you.[7] Bongolian (talk) 03:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be happy if he just takes out the uncited junk he put in today. It's an opportunity to mitigate a coop case. nobsI'm all yea'res 03:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Should we take @Bongolian to the Coop, then? This continued harassment is uncalled for, and will only get worse and cause another case of HCM if left untreated. — Übermensch Pierce through the wonder of amazement at the ubermensch 02:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
While it is true that you did not cite Breitbart, you put that text as a caption under an image that came originally via Breitbart. This is as per Snopes, as I cited it.[8] I don't see why you find Breitbart objectionable but The Daily Caller is not. Is there a hierarchy of acceptable crankery on Conservapedia? Bongolian (talk) 05:43, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Bongolian, did nobs cite Breitbart in the text of an article? If not, you saying that he does is stretching the truth a little, right? RoninMacbeth (talk) 06:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- The caption did not "originally" come from Brietbart. The caption came from Obama's publisher. Remove the Brietbart reference. nobsI'm all yea'res 06:35, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nobs did not cite Breitbart in the text of the article and I did not claim that he did. What I said was, "Nobs' claim was based on Breitbart.com reprinting in 2012 of a 1991 promotional booklet written by Obama's literary agency, which stated that he was born in Kenya. Neither Andrew Breitbart, nor Breitbart.com were birthers, and the literary agent who wrote the information stated that it was an error and did not come from information provided by Obama." This is true on it's face because Nobs inserted both the image and the caption, and the caption that he inserted has the Breitbart watermark. Scroll down and look at the image for the text ("The Birther movement was started by Obama himself.") at this citation that I provided.[9] Bongolian (talk) 06:41, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Brietbart has nothing to do with this.
- I don't see what the controversy is. A 'birther' is one who denies Obama is a U.S. natural born citizen. Obama contracted with a publisher who promoted Obama as foreign born. I reported facts. Nowhere did I question if indeed Obama was foreign born.
- You are reading things (again) into the text that simply are not there . nobsI'm all yea'res 06:47, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- You stated two falsehoods — according to reputable fact-checking organizations — that feed directly into birtherism and that you yourself did not correct. 1) "The Birther movement was started by Obama himself." and 2) "The document bares[sic] a watermark; watermarks were not available in 1961. An original has never been produced." Bongolian (talk) 06:55, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Here's another CP page I cleaned up of birtherism. There were at least six, as I recall. Writing on the birther movement is not being a birther. By that standard, Snopes are birthers. nobsI'm all yea'res 06:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Here's one that goes back to 2011, before I was banned. I consolidated material written by others, what I added I don't remember. Nowherre do I express an editorial stance on the issue. It's fine writing, in keeping with Wikipedia NPOV. nobsI'm all yea'res 07:08, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- And some of these claims are ridiculous, like the insertion of "president" in unrelated articles. It's been a constant ongoing battle. I'v done more to cleanup CP of birtherism than anybody else, and it is not something I am proud to boast about. nobsI'm all yea'res 07:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- You stated two falsehoods — according to reputable fact-checking organizations — that feed directly into birtherism and that you yourself did not correct. 1) "The Birther movement was started by Obama himself." and 2) "The document bares[sic] a watermark; watermarks were not available in 1961. An original has never been produced." Bongolian (talk) 06:55, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nobs did not cite Breitbart in the text of the article and I did not claim that he did. What I said was, "Nobs' claim was based on Breitbart.com reprinting in 2012 of a 1991 promotional booklet written by Obama's literary agency, which stated that he was born in Kenya. Neither Andrew Breitbart, nor Breitbart.com were birthers, and the literary agent who wrote the information stated that it was an error and did not come from information provided by Obama." This is true on it's face because Nobs inserted both the image and the caption, and the caption that he inserted has the Breitbart watermark. Scroll down and look at the image for the text ("The Birther movement was started by Obama himself.") at this citation that I provided.[9] Bongolian (talk) 06:41, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- The caption did not "originally" come from Brietbart. The caption came from Obama's publisher. Remove the Brietbart reference. nobsI'm all yea'res 06:35, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Again Bongolian misrepresents facts. The full statement he cites is: "The alleged forged document on the White House website. Birth certificate The document bares a watermark; watermarks were not available in 1961. An original has never been produced." I am reverting your edits. You can start over. nobsI'm all yea'res 07:43, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- And if what Snopes says is true, Obama should sue his publisher and get his money back. nobsI'm all yea'res 07:47, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- In 2004, I personally heard Gloria Borger
say on PBS's Washington Week in Review say that Obama was born in Kenya. Why don't you go post up all your crap on Gloria Borger's and PBS's pages? nobsI'm all yea'res 07:57, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I would like to call upon the other moderators (@DuceMoosolini, @LeftyGreenMario, @RoninMacbeth, @RWRW and @Spud) to adjudicate this issue. Nobs has edited his own page (Conservapedia:RobSmith); this is highly frowned upon for obvious reasons, and there is precedent for not allowing people to edit pages about themselves other than their own home pages. Rather than jump into an immediate coop again, I'm calling upon you to evaluate the evidence text and the evidence that I presented:
Nobs engaged in Obama citizenship denial, a form of racism, by falsely claiming that Obama's birth certificate was fake because, "The document bares[sic] a watermark; watermarks were not available in 1961. An original has never been produced."[1] Nobs' claim was presumably based on conspiracy theorist Jerome Corsi's claim and was debunked by FactCheck.org.[2]
Nobs also falsely claimed that Obama himself started the birther movement, "The birther movement was started by Obama himself."[3] Nobs' claim was based on Breitbart.com reprinting in 2012 of a 1991 promotional booklet written by Obama's literary agency, which stated that he was born in Kenya. Neither Andrew Breitbart, nor Breitbart.com were birthers, and the literary agent who wrote the information stated that it was an error and did not come from information provided by Obama.[4]
- Really, I would have preferred to ignore Nobs and Conservapedia as I had done for years. Since he tried to get elected moderator, people need to understand who he really is, that he holds views that are not just eccentric but that are in opposition to the foundational purposes of RationalWiki. Bongolian (talk) 18:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Is there a specific instance where a person added content to their own page that was then reverted on those grounds? If so, could you please provide links to such a case? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- It sounds an awful lot like an attempt to import Wikipedias COI policy to me. However if we were to suddenly apply that policy, both Bongolian and nobs would be prohibited from editing the page. Making the issue moot. — Dysk (contribs) 20:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- The problem with that analysis is that RW has, generally, avoided strict policy, deciding issues via the mob votes that are (very lightly) advised by precedent. If we WERE to import the COI policy from Wikipedia, that would require a full community vote. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:47, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Generally we remove content if it's crap, it has nothing to do with who wrote it. That said, people often try and whitewash their articles an we generally undo their changes. But I contend this is because the changes are crap, not because they were made by the subject. — Dysk (contribs) 20:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- But the specific reason Bongolian summoned the other moderators here was because nobs was editing his own article, not because the edits were shitty. If that was the main issue, then this discussion would be taking place at Conservapedia talk:RobSmith, not here. So if the main problem is that nobs's edits were just shitty, then, well, why isn't this being discussed at Conservapedia talk:RobSmith? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Probably because nobs feels that the edits by Bongolian are directly connected to the fact they still having a tiff. Therefore it's a conduct issue, and not so much a content issue. — Dysk (contribs) 21:13, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- But the specific reason Bongolian summoned the other moderators here was because nobs was editing his own article, not because the edits were shitty. If that was the main issue, then this discussion would be taking place at Conservapedia talk:RobSmith, not here. So if the main problem is that nobs's edits were just shitty, then, well, why isn't this being discussed at Conservapedia talk:RobSmith? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Generally we remove content if it's crap, it has nothing to do with who wrote it. That said, people often try and whitewash their articles an we generally undo their changes. But I contend this is because the changes are crap, not because they were made by the subject. — Dysk (contribs) 20:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- The problem with that analysis is that RW has, generally, avoided strict policy, deciding issues via the mob votes that are (very lightly) advised by precedent. If we WERE to import the COI policy from Wikipedia, that would require a full community vote. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:47, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- It sounds an awful lot like an attempt to import Wikipedias COI policy to me. However if we were to suddenly apply that policy, both Bongolian and nobs would be prohibited from editing the page. Making the issue moot. — Dysk (contribs) 20:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Is there a specific instance where a person added content to their own page that was then reverted on those grounds? If so, could you please provide links to such a case? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Really, I would have preferred to ignore Nobs and Conservapedia as I had done for years. Since he tried to get elected moderator, people need to understand who he really is, that he holds views that are not just eccentric but that are in opposition to the foundational purposes of RationalWiki. Bongolian (talk) 18:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Nobs is trying to whitewash his own page, as other have done before and were reverted for the attempted whitewashing, e.g., Emil Emil_Kirkegaard[10]
- So nobs is just a low quality editor but I don't see how this is concerning right now, like hasn't he done this sort of crap already? --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 21:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- If the consensus is moderators are unimpressed by what Nobs has had to say here, then I'll reinstate my edits, and lock the page if he persists on editing it. As I've stated before, I'm happy to correct factual errors, and I previously went so far as to invite Dysklyver to edit my edits on that page. Bongolian (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, Bongolian's previous edits to the page were mostly fine (I changed some minor details). I haven't looked into the more recent edits yet, beyond noting the fact nobs is clearly upset. — Dysk (contribs) 23:21, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- If that is the case, then I think this is settled. RoninMacbeth (talk) 23:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm all for taking the discussion to Conservapedia talk:RobSmith, where it can be ignored. Mind you, these false and slanders edits are about a living person - additionally made by a Moderator. And a Mod's job is to mediate and resolve disputes, not slander living persons on Rationalwiki with false information and bring the project into disrepute. nobsI'm all yea'res 00:47, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- If that is the case, then I think this is settled. RoninMacbeth (talk) 23:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, Bongolian's previous edits to the page were mostly fine (I changed some minor details). I haven't looked into the more recent edits yet, beyond noting the fact nobs is clearly upset. — Dysk (contribs) 23:21, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- If the consensus is moderators are unimpressed by what Nobs has had to say here, then I'll reinstate my edits, and lock the page if he persists on editing it. As I've stated before, I'm happy to correct factual errors, and I previously went so far as to invite Dysklyver to edit my edits on that page. Bongolian (talk) 23:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Will someone please remove the false information Bongolian admitted to in this discussion
He locked the page, and continues to insert false and slanderous information - that he admitted was false in this thread, about a living person. nobsI'm all yea'res 04:29, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, he posted "Nobs engaged in Obama citizenship denial, a form of racism," which clearly is disproven by these three edits. before and after and here (more available).
Bongolian's claim he cites to Dr. Corsi leaves out my reference to an "alleged forgery." nobsI'm all yea'res 04:44, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Nowhere do I express an opinion pro or con. I mediated a dispute between warring factions with neutral language based on available evidence from both sides. nobsI'm all yea'res 04:47, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- @RobSmith "I'm all for taking the discussion to Conservapedia talk:RobSmith, where it can be ignored." Too fucking bad, we're going there. Pick a difflink of the article that you prefer, and try to convince the mob to implement your version. I dislike discussing editorial content on the mod noticeboard when Bongolian starts it, and I sure as hell dislike doing it when you do so. I'll set up a vote. RoninMacbeth (talk) 06:28, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- @DuceMoosolini @LeftyGreenMario @RoninMacbeth @RWRW @Spud You may want to vote on this since Nobs is trying to enshrine his views on his webpage that I view as being highly problematic, as I detailed there: Conservapedia talk:RobSmith#Edit War, RobSmith v. Bongolian. Bongolian (talk) 23:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Patience, grasshopper. I will vote when I feel like I can confidently make the best choice for the Wiki. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- @DuceMoosolini @LeftyGreenMario @RoninMacbeth @RWRW @Spud You may want to vote on this since Nobs is trying to enshrine his views on his webpage that I view as being highly problematic, as I detailed there: Conservapedia talk:RobSmith#Edit War, RobSmith v. Bongolian. Bongolian (talk) 23:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Why do we put up with constant trolling by unlicensed thinker?
He doesn't believe a goddamn word he says. He just wants to shit stir on the bar. Is there some grounds for it? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:52, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- For clarity of archives this is answered in the section below. My best summary of the conclusion is "We tolerate it as long as it doesn't violate any guidelines on disruptive". I weep for the subjective. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:35, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Accusation of racism
To the moderators: @Bongolian, @DuceMoosolini, @LeftyGreenMario, @RWRW, @RoninMacbeth, @Spud
Besides the usual "dumbass", "shut the fuck up", "You're a dumb fuck", "shut the fuck" coming from @Ikanreed, he recently accused me of being of a racist. Precisely, he replied to one of my posts with:
"wow they obviously qualified a different word in the sentence to defray legal risk of alleging a crime, that must mean they're bigoted against racist morons like me" You're a dumb fuck, and I reiterate you should shut the fuck up, and stop pretending like you've got a point. You don't. You do actually know you're full of shit. You know you're putting on a show. Take those crocodile tears and use them to lube up your shitty opinion and shove it back up your ass where it came from.
If on the one hand I find insults like "dumbass" quite childish and I think they do not make any damage to me (although I do not see how the reiteration of "shut the fuck up" conciliates with RW standard "We welcome contributors, and encourage those who disagree with us to register and engage in constructive dialogue"); On the other hand I find an accusation of racism quite serious and damaging, because other users (not having the time to dig into my all contributions) could think I really expressed racist thoughts in the past, which of course I didn't (I don't even remember if I ever talked about race on RW).
So I ask ikanreed to prove his accusations of me being a racist or to retrieve them, and I ask the moderators to settle this situation once for all, so that in his next post ikanreed will not come up with another accusation like that. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:08, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ban this whiner. Seriously, just fucking do it. This is like the tenth time they've pitched a fit at being called on their bullshit, while flagrantly trolling. Has this user ever contributed anything of value to this wiki? Has this user ever posted something to the saloon bar that wasn't at least a little trolling? Why the fuck are we putting up with this shit? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:14, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Good gods in Asgard, this is the Lankaster thing all over again. What the fuck is going on between you two? RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- You know what? No. Fuck that. It's not personal. I don't have some hate boner for the guy. Just every single goddamn time they post at the bar it's some dishonest-as-hell bullshit. And when I treat it as such, they run here whining "it's so unfair, they called me a racist because I said racist shit". ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ikanreed, get back to me when and if UT violates Community Standards in some meaningful way. @UnlicensedThinker I haven't gone through all of your edits yet, but I'm far more inclined to trust Ikanreed when it comes to your subtext than you. Now both of you, clear off of here until something actually important happens. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- "I haven't gone through all of your edits yet, but I'm far more inclined to trust Ikanreed when it comes to your subtext than you."
- @RoninMacbeth That's exactly the problem I mentioned: users don't have time to read all my contributions, so they are gonna assume that I really said something racist because ikanreed is claiming so -although he gave no proofs- and I'll be effectively labeled as racist.
- "And when I treat it as such, they run here whining "it's so unfair, they called me a racist because I said racist shit"".
- @Ikanreed So you are reiterating you accusation. Show me one instance when I made a racist statement. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:54, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- What part of "both of you clear off of here until something actually important happens" do you fail to understand? If you have a problem with Ikanreed, take this to the Bar or his talkpage. I AM NOT ADJUDICATING THIS ISSUE. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:01, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm seeing ikanreed and AMassiveGay trying their hardest to reason with you and you're coming off as obtuse, IMO. It's infuriating to argue that way. Maybe ikanreed should've approached this better, just maybe, but I don't see why I should be taking any action. You guys should just try to resolve this and do not sealion. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 21:21, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm seeing ikanreed and AMassiveGay trying their hardest to reason with you and you're coming off as obtuse, IMO. It's infuriating to argue that way. Maybe ikanreed should've approached this better, just maybe, but I don't see why I should be taking any action. You guys should just try to resolve this and do not sealion. --It's-a me,
- What part of "both of you clear off of here until something actually important happens" do you fail to understand? If you have a problem with Ikanreed, take this to the Bar or his talkpage. I AM NOT ADJUDICATING THIS ISSUE. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:01, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Ikanreed, get back to me when and if UT violates Community Standards in some meaningful way. @UnlicensedThinker I haven't gone through all of your edits yet, but I'm far more inclined to trust Ikanreed when it comes to your subtext than you. Now both of you, clear off of here until something actually important happens. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- You know what? No. Fuck that. It's not personal. I don't have some hate boner for the guy. Just every single goddamn time they post at the bar it's some dishonest-as-hell bullshit. And when I treat it as such, they run here whining "it's so unfair, they called me a racist because I said racist shit". ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Good gods in Asgard, this is the Lankaster thing all over again. What the fuck is going on between you two? RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- @LeftyGreenMario"I'm seeing ikanreed and AMassiveGay trying their hardest to reason with you and you're coming off as obtuse"
- Let's say that you are completely right: That doesn't mean that ikanreed accusing me of being a racist is OK. Can a user call another user "racist" in a thread that has nothing to do with race? Can he make again the same accusation without giving any proof? This is the issue here, and you are ignoring it. Thinker(unlicensed) 21:47, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
New account trolls
It might be worth disabling account creation for one week. I have spent a lot of time on this Wiki creating articles, I try to avoid talk-pages but now new accounts are targeting me. I now seem to be a target from Mikemikev/Abd Lomax/ Smith drama. Now when I create an article Mikemikev turns up trolling the talk-page on a different account pretending to be a different identity. Yesterday I was up through the night debating this troll. A total waste of my time. He had never read up on the topic of statin denialism before yesterday, so he had no idea what he was talking about, it was just a way to provoke me. I like this Wiki but there is far too much trolling here from new accounts. People can put hard time in creating decent articles here and then are trolled by a series of ridiculous sock-puppets, it is not really fair. I am not sure if account disable has done before, but just a suggestion. The typical response will be ignore the trolls, yeh I understand but this trolling is tiresome and is messing up this Wiki. Something better should be done about it. John66 (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Umm. First of all, I don't even know if it can be done. Second of all, hell no. Mods closing account creation for a week seems pretty "mod-overreachy" to me. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:27, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Completely infringes upon the rights of the Educated Proletariat. Request denied. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- There does seem to be an increase in sock related nonsense lately, but I don't even think preventing account creation is possible. Even if it is it will only impact genuine new users. --RWRW (talk) 18:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- @John66 Try ignoring the trolls. If that proves too taxing, ping ikanreed and ask him to apply his usual diplomatic balm to the problem. Ariel31459 (talk) 18:33, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Completely infringes upon the rights of the Educated Proletariat. Request denied. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Easily reverted and blocked stuff might be annoying but they're incapable of any lasting damage. Mikemikev can only accomplish wasting your time but you also learn how to deal with him better. Actual damage would be locking account creation, though. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 19:25, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- I would vastly prefer we just banned everyone involved than closed account creation (which isn't an option even worth considering, to be clear). RationalWiki is an open wiki, meaning anybody can contribute, and by it's nature this includes the fact there will be trolls. It doesn't even matter if all the trolls are one person, because there are unlimited numbers of mad cranks out there who could appear at any time and start behaving in the same way. If you really can't handle some trolls, then spend a week away from the Wiki or something and have a nice break. — Dysk (contribs) 19:46, 6 March 2019 (UTC)