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No offence...

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Revision as of 13 March 2011 at 04:37.
The highlighted comment was created in this revision.

No offence... but an organised block war just seems a bit lame :\

Also, the Confederate States of America were racist. If you'd like to argue otherwise, please begin by refuting Alexander H. Stephens' length speech at the founding of the Confederation:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

If I were taking part in the founding of a new state, which I believed not to be racist, and the new Vice President spoke these words, not only would I be disgusted, but I'd probably have heckled him. In fact, the enormous non-racist crowd, from the population of this non-racist state, would probably have all heckled him.

    DalekEXTERMINATE00:02, 13 March 2011

    I never said the PEOPLE weren't racist, also an organised block war is better than organised religion.

      Colbert|FanFor the LuLz00:05, 13 March 2011

      So: - You accept that the Vice President of the CSA said that the state was founded on the principle that one race is superior to another. - You do not deny racism among the population of the CSA? - You accept that the CSA would rather fight a bloody war than give up slavery; but claim that they were not racist?

      By these standards, what possibly could be a racist state? Could a racist state exist, if this were not one? Surely, Apartheid South Africa was racist, with whites legally seen as superior to blacks? Well what if the whites OWNED the blacks? Would that be racist?

        DalekEXTERMINATE00:13, 13 March 2011

        Also the CSA's constitution specifically gave people the right to keep slaves - and only Negro ones at that.

          - π00:17, 13 March 2011
           

          How is that a nation state (the CSA) the founding documents of which entrench the right of members of one racial group to own members of another (and not vice versa) can be viewed as anything other than racist?

            MtD (talk)01:12, 13 March 2011

            Our friend here appears to be under the delusion that the CSA was founded on the noble philosophical principle of states' rights, which was of course completely separate from slavery and racism.

              Uke Blue03:33, 13 March 2011
               

              "which was of course completely separate from slavery and racism." --Uke Blue

              I didn't say it was SEPERATE from slavery and racism, what I mean by "Nor do I believe the Confederacy was racist" means that I don't believe that is mainly founded on slavery. I know that it WAS a racist state, however, so was the US when it was founded(most of the founding fathers owned slaves) and we don't say the US was founded on slavery.

              Putting people to high standards and then saying to supporters of a view "SEE!" is a bad arguing method.

                Colbert|FanFor the LuLz03:42, 13 March 2011
                Edited by author.
                Last edit: 03:48, 13 March 2011

                Well if you know the Confederacy was a racist state, why do you have Nor do I think the Confederacy was racist. on your userpage?

                Updated to say, don't you think you should qualify Nor do I think the Confederacy was racist. to represent what you really think?

                  MtD (talk)03:46, 13 March 2011

                  Miswording, I will change it to Nor do I think the Confederacy was MAINLY racist. Okay, MtD.

                    Colbert|FanFor the LuLz03:47, 13 March 2011
                     

                    Please, since you've spent so much effort describing what you don't think, tell us clearly what you do think.

                      Uke Blue03:49, 13 March 2011
                      • The Confederacy was founded mainly on states' rights
                      • Abe didn't care about slavery as much as people think he did
                      • The Union at that time could be easily compared to the Great Britain under King George III with regards to secession movements.
                        Colbert|FanFor the LuLz03:53, 13 March 2011

                        So, it was just a little bit racist?

                          MtDHolla!03:56, 13 March 2011

                          It was FLAWED, it wasn't made by God. What I think you mean is "Was the Confederacy made for slavery", which my response would be no. It was made for states' rights, and free blacks fought in the War for Southern Independence.

                          Also, I DO NOT have a Southern accent.

                            Colbert|FanFor the LuLz03:58, 13 March 2011
                            • The Confederacy was founded mainly on states' rights
                            Yes, this is a partly true statement.
                            • Abe didn't care about slavery as much as people think he did
                            Also true.
                            • The Union at that time could be easily compared to the Great Britain under King George III with regards to secession movements.
                            This is not even wrong.

                            Let's talk about this.

                            What you fail to understand about the Confederacy was that the reason the Southern states seceded was because they felt that their way of life was mortally threatened by the election of Abraham Lincoln, who was an anti-slavery (not an abolitionist, of course) Northerner. Their way of life included economic, political, and social elements--some historians even contend that the North and South were not simply different economic regions, but two entirely separate civilizations--and differed from the North in all of these elements. One government could no longer contain both societies, especially given the expansionist tendencies of both (c.f. the wp:Ostend Manifesto and wp:Kansas-Nebraska Act and its repercussions), so the South saw no choice but to break away. What you specifically fail to realize is just how integral the institution of slavery was to Southern socioeconomics, and how the subjugation of blacks was not simply an economic policy but a societal necessity. The Confederacy, the culmination of the seceding states' effort at housing their society in a new government, is simply inextricable and inseparable from that subjugation.

                            You correctly point out that the chief reason given for secession by the Southern states was that under the "compact" theory of the Constitution, it was a "state's right" to secede. Lincoln, the North and ultimately the Supreme Court affirmed the "contract" theory of the Constitution, meaning that the federal government was supreme. This issue was put to bed after the war in a legal sense, but persists to the present day in the political invective in conservative Southern states. States' rights were the legal foundation of the Confederacy. But the moral, economic, and social foundation of the Confederacy was the aforementioned subjugation of blacks. That's not to say that states' rights were not vitally important to the Confederate States--they were, and that probably helped them lose the war--but that the Confederacy was created to preserve the Southern way of life, their civilization if you will, which was based on the subjugation of blacks in all respects. States' rights were merely a justification of their continuation of that way of life.

                              Uke Blue04:21, 13 March 2011

                              It was only a part of their way of life, a part that would have ended. Slavery wouldn't have lasted long.

                                Colbert|FanFor the LuLz04:26, 13 March 2011

                                Please try to read what I wrote. Perhaps I should rewrite it at a seventh-grade reading level?

                                  Uke Blue04:27, 13 March 2011

                                  I did, are you happy now?

                                    Colbert|FanFor the LuLz04:37, 13 March 2011
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     

                                    Who said it was made by god? Also, I don't recall suggesting you have a Southern accent.

                                      MtDPinko Scum04:00, 13 March 2011

                                      No, but people put it up to perfect standards, when all governments are flawed. Also, the Southern accent part was joke. However, in reality somethings I can say with a Southern accent.

                                        Colbert|FanFor the LuLz04:01, 13 March 2011
                                         

                                        Everybody's a little bit racist sometimes

                                          Nebuchadnezzar (talk)04:01, 13 March 2011

                                          Well, ok. I don't really care for the Welsh. But I don't think I'd enslave them.

                                            MtDPinko Scum04:05, 13 March 2011
                                             

                                            True, I used to be racist. When I was I tried to stop it, however, it was hard because most of my bullies where brown(or Latino for those politically correct Nazis).

                                            I thought Latinos had an African skin color, I thought there was only 2 skin-colors.

                                              Colbert|FanFor the LuLz04:08, 13 March 2011

                                              Really? You were bullied? Whodathunk it?

                                                MtDPinko Scum04:15, 13 March 2011

                                                I still get bullied, bullying is a big problem for me (sad face).

                                                  Colbert|FanFor the LuLz04:16, 13 March 2011