RationalWiki:Kitzmiller v. Dover annotated transcript/P015

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Day 3 (28 Sept 2005): Afternoon Session - Direct of Christy Rehm

Section 1 THE COURT: You may call your next witness. MR. HARVEY: Your Honor, the plaintiffs call to the stand Plaintiff Christy Rehm. CHRISTY REHM, called as a witness, having been duly sworn or affirmed, testified as follows: MR. HARVEY: Your Honor, again, may I make sure that she has the binder of exhibits? THE COURT: You certainly may. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARVEY: Q. Please tell us your name. A. Christy Rehm. Q. Are you married, Mrs. Rehm? A. Yes. Q. Tell us the name of your husband. A. Bryan Rehm. Q. Please clarify for us one important question, and that is, exactly how old are your children? A. My children? Q. Yes. A. I have a 14-year-old daughter, Child 1, an eight-year-old daughter Child 2, a seven-year-old son Child 3, and a 15-month-old son Child 4. (Note: the names of all minors have been redacted by RationalWiki) Q. And where does your family live? I mean your immediate family, you and your husband and your children. A. (Address in Dover PA supplied, redacted by RationalWiki) Q. And how long have you lived there? A. Approximately five years. Q. And had you lived in Dover previously to that in your life? A. Yes. I grew up in Dover, I attended Dover High School, graduated from Dover High School. My family, my extended family, lives in the Dover area, including my grandparents, my parents, and other relatives. My parents currently still live in the Dover area. Q. And please tell us where your children are right now in school, the grades, please. A. Grade level, okay, yes. The oldest is in ninth grade, the next one is in the third grade. I have a first-grader, and then obviously the baby is not in school yet. Q. And the oldest three children, do they attend the public schools in Dover? A. Yes. Two of them, my oldest is at the high school, the Dover High School, and then I have -- the next one is at the Weiglestown Elementary School. And my son is hearing-impaired, so he is charged with the education of Dover School District, meaning that they have to provide his education, but he actually attends classes at a hearing-impaired classroom. Q. And your daughter that's in the ninth grade, is that at the Dover High School? A. Yes. Q. And is she taking biology now? A. Yes, she is.	Section 1 notes
Section 2 Q. Please summarize for us your educational background. A. As I said, I graduated from Dover High School. I attended Lock Haven University and Millersville University. I received a BA from Millersville University in English, and I also have a degree in journalism, as well. I later got a teaching certification and attended Penn State University where I received my master's degree. Q. Do you work outside the home? A. Yes, I do. Q. What do you do? A. I'm a teacher, an English teacher. Q. Where do you teach? A. In a public school system outside of York County. Q. And what grade do you teach? A. High-school level, so tenth through twelfth grade generally.	Section 2 notes
Section 3 Q. Did there come a time when you learned that the Dover Area School District Board of Directors was considering a change to -- was considering approval of a biology textbook? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember when that was? A. It was sometime in 2004. It was prior to the June meetings because my husband was a teacher at the school, so I often heard things that he would come home and tell me. So I knew that there was some discussion over the biology book, so sometime before that. I can't tell you exactly when. Q. Did you attend a meeting of the Dover Area School District Board of Directors on June the 7th of 2004? A. Yes, I did. Q. And why did you attend that meeting? A. Well, because, like I said, my husband had been a teacher at the school, and he had sort of been directed by the high school principal to attend the meeting in support of the different things that were happening. There were other textbooks that were being adopted and controversies over them, and, you know, it was sort of a rallying thing, I suppose. And I went along because I live in the district, I pay taxes in the district, my children attend school in the district. I'm an educator, and I was curious about what was happening. Q. And can you recall anything that happened at that meeting on June the 7th? A. I recall a lot of things that were happening at that meeting.	Section 3 notes
Section 4 Q. Please tell us what you can remember about that meeting. A. Okay. Some of the -- I attended a lot of meetings, so facts blur together. What I do recall, I -- as my husband said yesterday, I was pregnant at the time, so I have some reason to remember certain things. But I recall Barrie Callahan speaking about the textbook. It was the first time that I had really ever been around Barrie Callahan, so she strikes me -- that memory strikes me because my mother had known her previously. And she was speaking about the textbook, just questioning them. I don't remember her exact words. But I do know that she was upset with them about this textbook, the textbook process, the students not having a textbook. Obviously it was very distressing for her that the students in the biology class did not have a textbook. Q. Do you remember if any board member spoke back to her in response to her questions? A. Yes. Bill Buckingham said to her -- and I know Bill Buckingham because at the time he lived down the street from my grandparents and for many years lived there. And he responded to her basically saying that there's, you know, a problem with the textbook, it needs to be balanced, comments about laced with Darwinism, it needed to be balanced with creationism. Comments of that nature is what he had said to her. Q. Do you remember -- A. I'm sorry. Q. I'm sorry. A. And I distinctly recall Barrie Callahan sort of throwing her hands up in the air and saying, Oh, so this is about evolution. That was very distinct in my mind, just her mannerisms as she said that.	Section 4 notes
Section 5 Q. Do you recall a young man by the name of Max Pell speaking at that meeting? A. Unfortunately I was in the restroom at the time that Max Pell was speaking because -- my husband told you I was eight months pregnant. I was actually nine months pregnant and due any day, so I spent quite a deal of time in the restroom. But I had excused myself to go to the restroom just after Barrie did this whole thing. In fact, I may have been walking out of the room at the time and in close proximity to her. And so at the time when Max was speaking -- I believe that there were people who spoke in between she and Max Pell. But at the time when he stood to speak, I was in the restroom and sort of coming back from the restroom, so I don't really recall exactly what his comments were. I know him because he was my husband's student, though. Q. Do you recall any other board members saying anything during the course of any discussion about the biology textbook? A. Well, like I said, I was reentering the room from the bathroom, so I was sort of in the doorway. And I obviously didn't know what Max had said to the board but that he had spoken to the board. So the comments that were coming back were, I assume, directed at him. But there were comments from Bill Buckingham about brainwashing, and I remember hearing that, the whole thing about brainwashing, because it dealt with going to college and getting this education and students who go to college become brainwashed. And I was very upset by that because I attended college and I don't feel as if I were brainwashed. And also I recall Alan Bonsell making a comment about, you know, there are only two theories, there's this theory evolution and there's this theory creation, and if you're teaching only those two theories, then there's not a problem. Q. Do you recall anything else Mr. Bonsell said? A. At this time, no. Q. Do you remember anything else that was said by any members of the public at that meeting? A. At that meeting. Currently, I don't.	Section 5 notes
Section 6 Q. I'd like you to take a look at what's been marked as Exhibit P46. It's in the notebook in front of you. Just take a moment to look at it. A. Okay. Q. Do you have that in front of you? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever seen it before? A. This article, yes. Q. Did you see it at or around the date that it was published? A. Yes, I did. Q. What's the date on it? A. The date is June 9th, 2004. Q. Who is the author? A. The author is Joseph Maldonado. Q. And can you tell us what publication its from? A. Yes. It is from the York Daily Record. Q. Now, did you just have an opportunity to read it just a moment ago? A. Just now I skimmed it, yes. Q. Take another moment to look at it if you need to, but I would like to know whether it refreshes your recollection about anything else that happened at that meeting. A. Yes. Q. Okay. Tell us what else -- after looking at that article, do you remember anything else that happened at the meeting? A. Yes, I do recall Bill Buckingham making comments about, you know, the apes and monkeys -- coming from apes and monkeys. And I also --	Section 6 notes
Section 7 MR. MUISE: Your Honor, again, objection. It appears she's going to be reading from the article with her testimony. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. THE COURT: It's a little hard to do this, but we'll sustain the objection. Mr. Muise's objection is well-founded. Let me explain how we can do this, how we must do this. When your counsel asks you the question, you may review the article, take a look at it, see if it refreshes your recollection. It's important that having refreshed your recollection, if it jogs something or re-creates a memory, that you testify in answer to Mr. Harvey's question. Do not look back and read from the article as you're testifying, please. All right? THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry.	Section 7 notes
Section 8 BY MR. HARVEY: Q. Now, do you remember anything else that happened at that meeting? A. Yes. I remember comments about our country being founded on Christianity and not needing to teach the faiths of other people. And I remember talking to my husband about that in the car ride home, as well, because we're both teachers and I was -- when I hear things like that, I immediately think of my students, and I was thinking about the diverse group of students that I have in my classroom, who all have different religious viewpoints, and how difficult that would be to tell one student that, you know, we can't express your belief, but we can express that person's belief in the classroom. And I just find those things to be very upsetting when I hear things like that being said. Q. Now, do you remember if you attended another meeting of the Dover Area School District Board of Directors approximately a week later on June the 14th? A. Yes, I did. Q. And why did you attend that meeting? A. Well, because there wasn't really a clear resolution to what had occurred the previous meeting. In addition, I was very angry when I left the June 7th meeting just because of the demeanor of the school board and the things that were being said. And, honestly, I thought that maybe it would set me into labor because of, you know, being angry, and at that point in time I was past my due date, in addition to caring about my children's education and everything I said previously.	Section 8 notes
Section 9 Q. Now, tell us what you can recall of the June 14th, 2004 board meeting. A. Again, there were many, many things that happened at that school board meeting, and I can tell you that I was very much interested in what was being said. And so I pretty well made sure, at the beginning of that meeting, which went on for quite a long time, that I wouldn't miss anything, so I took care of my bathroom needs beforehand. And I recall the meeting starting with Bill Buckingham sort of -- I'm sorry, Trudy Peterman spoke about her -- actually, hold on. Give me one second to think about this. Yes, Trudy Peterman spoke. She was the high school principal at the time. And I know that she spoke because the thing that she said seemed very similar to her graduation speech that she had said just previously. My sister had graduated that year, and I attended the commencement ceremony. And she had talked about Visigoths and things like that that she had spoken about in her commencement speech. And essentially she was speaking up for the teachers and the biology textbook. And after she had spoken, Bertha Spahr also spoke, as well. She's the department chairperson, and, actually, I had her as a science teacher. And she presented information to the board, documents, that she and I believe other members of the science department had researched on, I guess cases that had been set down before on creationism in the public school system or something of that nature, just to show them that, you know, if they were still considering this idea, that they might, I don't know, be met with some litigation or something. After she spoke, Bill Buckingham had made a comment to her about her -- where did she get her law degree from. Can you give me one second? I'm wondering if I'm getting my meetings mixed up. MR. MUISE: Objection, Your Honor. This is running into a narrative. THE COURT: Well, I think it's still responsive to the question. Do you want to put a question on the floor? MR. HARVEY: She was just thinking.	Section 9 notes
Section 10 BY MR. HARVEY: Q. Did you need to think and change your testimony in any way? A. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't getting my meetings mixed up. THE COURT: You can finish your answer. Do you want to finish the answer, or is that your answer? THE WITNESS: Yes, that's my answer. I'm sorry, I recall something else, as well. I recall Charlotte Buckingham, who is Bill Buckingham's wife, speaking at that meeting, as well. Essentially there were a lot of people in the community who were standing and speaking at this meeting because they wanted to warn the school board that they were not in favor of any legal action coming against the community, against the school board. They were afraid for their tax dollars. And Charlotte Buckingham I recall really being the only person who got up to stand in defense of the school board, and she was Mr. Buckingham's wife, or is Mr. Buckingham's wife. And she quoted Scripture, Old Testament, actually, all Old Testament Scripture about why the school board is right, basically. And she also talked about school prayer and the need for school prayer in that speech that she had prepared. In addition, Reverend Warren Eshbach stood up and spoke at that meeting, as well, sort of urging the school board not to proceed with this. And many other members of the community spoke, as well. BY MR. HARVEY: Q. Did your husband speak? A. I recall my husband speaking. In fact, he hadn't prepared to speak, but he was very upset, as many people in the audience were, and he stood up to speak. I don't remember his exact comments, but, again, it was a warning to the school board and -- actually, not necessarily a warning, but just sort of reiterating what science teachers do in their science classes and how there is really no conflict here with the textbook. MR. MUISE: Objection, Your Honor. It's a narrative. The question was, did your husband speak. THE WITNESS: Yes, he spoke. MR. HARVEY: My next question was going to be simply if you could tell us what -- but I think she's already told us what she can recall her husband said. THE COURT: Well, that answered the next question. That moots the objection, and you can move to the next question.	Section 10 notes
Section 11 BY MR. HARVEY: Q. Do you remember Bill Buckingham speaking at this meeting? A. Oh, yes. There were not many meetings where Bill Buckingham did not speak. And, actually, at that meeting -- I believe the beginning of the meeting was an apology, actually, which he had prepared in advance apologizing to the members of the community if he had said anything that offended them. And it seemed to me sort of an inappropriate apology because -- or maybe "inappropriate" is not the correct word, but not a sincere apology because almost immediately after he had given his apology, he started doing the same things that he had always done, which was to demean the public, to say negative comments. Q. Do you remember specifically anything he said? A. Yes. He made comments like, 2000 years ago someone died on the Cross, can't we take a stand for Him. He made comments about the liberals in black robes coming and taking away our freedoms in the school. He made many, many comments at that meeting. Q. Now, did you attend any other meetings of the Dover Area School District Board of Directors that summer? A. No, we didn't attend that summer. Q. And did you attend any meetings that fall? A. Yes.	Section 11 notes
Section 12 Q. Did you attend the meeting on or about October the 18th of 2004? A. Yes, we did. Q. And can you just tell us briefly what you can recall about that meeting? A. Well, there was -- at this point in time it was the change in the curriculum that was being proposed and voted on that evening. And, again, this was a heated meeting. There were many members of the community who stood to speak, science department members. Jen Miller spoke, although I didn't really know who she was at the time. I recall her speaking on behalf of her biology course. I recall Bertha Spahr again speaking. My husband again spoke at this meeting. And, again, other members of the community spoke at that meeting. Q. Did you and your husband stay for the whole meeting? A. No, we didn't. Q. Now, during the time that you were at the meeting, did you hear any discussion among the board members about the reasons for the proposed change to the biology curriculum? A. During the board meeting? Q. Yes. A. No.	Section 12 notes
Section 13 Q. Did you attend a meeting the following week, on or about November the 2nd, 2004? A. Yes. Q. And can you remember anything from that meeting? A. Yes. I recall Noel Weinrich who had spoken at other meetings, as well, was upset about the vote that they had taken and was sort of urging them to rethink the vote. Q. Do you remember anyone requesting access to -- A. Oh, yes. Q. -- a tape of the October 18th meeting? A. Yes. Because my husband and I had left early -- we had our infant with us and he needed to get home -- we had heard that there were comments that were said after we left about teachers should be fired if they don't listen to the school board's directive. And we wanted to hear that for ourselves, so my husband had previously requested the tapes and then at that meeting he stood again to request the tapes. In addition, Barrie Callahan had stood to request the tapes at that meeting, as well. Q. And do you remember if any members of the school board spoke in response to either your husband or Barrie Callahan with respect to the subject of the tapes? A. Yes. Barrie -- I'm sorry, Alan Bonsell said very clearly that -- Dr. Nilsen had said something, as well, about the tapes, that it's not policy or something like that, that this is not past practice, this is not policy, this is not standard policy to release tapes to the public. And additionally, Alan Bonsell made the comment that they couldn't release the tapes because after speaking with their solicitor, there would possibly be legal issues, ramifications if they released the tapes.	Section 13 notes
Section 14 Q. Now, I'd like to just ask you just a couple more questions. Mrs. Rehm, do you believe that the board's actions with respect to the change to the biology curriculum have caused any harm to you? A. Yes, absolutely. Q. And can you please tell us how you have been harmed? A. Well, in numerous ways. First, as a teacher, professionally, I feel that teachers in general are harmed, myself, as well, because there's a dichotomy here in what they're saying about this statement that they have passed on intelligent design as they're not teaching it. On the other hand, they've said that it enhances state standards and critical thinking. In my mind, everything that you do in a classroom is teaching. And I don't necessarily think that's just in my mind. I believe that's true of all educators. The way I dress when I go to work tells my students something. The statements I make or the statements that I do not make in my classroom tell my students something. So I think we're charged with, you know, having an ethical decision to make when we walk into the classroom, the things that we say and the things that we do, and so I think that's very important. But you can't say when you walk into a classroom, you're not teaching. And if that's what's happening in the Dover school system and my children are in that school system, that they're routinely establishing practices that is not teaching in the classroom, then that's shameful. In addition, I have a child who is in the ninth-grade biology class, and this has spilled over into other classes. It's not just the biology class that has been affected by this. My child has heard comments from other students, school board member students in her classroom about evolution being against their religion, and do you think we came from monkeys, how can you think we came from monkeys. It used to be a weekly occurrence. It's now a daily occurrence, and my daughter comes home from school upset about these comments that are being made to her and, you know, is looking for guidance on how to respond to these questions. Also, intelligent design is not a scientific concept. It's a religious concept. And because I don't subscribe to that particular brand of religion, I feel that I and my daughter, my family, are being ridiculed, and my daughter feels the pressure. I reserve the right to teach my child about religion. And I have faith in myself and in my husband and in my pastor to do that, not the school system. MR. HARVEY: Thank you. No further questions. THE COURT: All right. Before we start the cross-examination, I think this will be an appropriate time for our afternoon break. We'll take that break for approximately 20 minutes, no longer than that, and we will return with Mr. Muise's cross-examination of the witness. We'll be in recess. '(Recess taken.)	Section 14 notes

Day 3 (28 Sept 2005): Afternoon Session - Cross of Christy Rehm

Section 15 THE COURT: Mr. Muise, you may cross-examine. MR. MUISE: Thank you, Your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MUISE: Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Rehm. Your oldest child is 14 years old. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And your child's name is Child1? (Ed: name of child redacted by RationalWiki) A. Yes. Q. And Child1 is presently in the ninth-grade biology class at Dover High School? A. Yes, she is. Q. And my understanding from your husband's testimony yesterday is that she hasn't yet reached the section in biology that deals with evolution. Is that correct? A. Yes. After looking at her syllabus, it appears that evolution comes later in the course. I wouldn't say at the end, but closer to the end of the course. Q. And so she hasn't heard this one-minute statement be read in the class yet? A. She has not, no.	Section 15 notes
Section 16 Q. Now, you testified about two -- or several meetings, but two meetings in particular I want to ask you some questions about. And those are the meetings that occurred on June 7th of 2004 and then the meeting on June 14th of 2004. Okay? A. Yes. Q. I believe you described these meetings as involving some heated exchanges between some board members and the public. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And it's my sense from your testimony that the majority of the statements that you appear to find objectionable were statements made by Mr. Buckingham? A. No. There were statements made by many of the school board members that I found objectionable. It's just that Mr. Buckingham always seemed to say very inappropriate things. But in addition, Alan Bonsell said very inappropriate things, and Noel Weinrich said very inappropriate things. It's just that I didn't give much credit to Noel Weinrich's comments because he would say things like, Darwin's at least what, 60 years old, a theory becomes a theory if you say it over and over again. Those are the kind of things he would say. But they were all very outspoken.	Section 16 notes
Section 17 Q. Now, the controversy on the June 7th and June 14th meeting was surrounding the selection of a biology textbook. Correct? A. June 7th and June 14th? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. And the biology textbook that was in question at the time, I believe it was the 2002 version of the Miller-Levine biology book. Is that your understanding? A. It very well could be. I'm not sure what the edition in debate was. Q. But the statements that you testified to and the controversy that you were describing was surrounding the purchase or selection of that particular biology book for the school district. Correct? A. Yes, it was definitely the Miller-Levine textbook. I don't know what the edition was or the copyright date or any of that information, but I do know that it was that biology textbook that was being debated very rigorously. Q. And, in fact, the school district purchased the 2004 Miller-Levine biology book to be used as the primary text for the ninth-grade biology class. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And that would be the textbook that your daughter Child1' will be using? A. Yes, with the dragonfly on it. Q. She already has the book? A. She has the book, yes. Q. Have you looked through it? A. Have I looked through the book? Yes, I have looked through the book. Q. Do you have any objections with the book? A. No, I don't. Q. She wasn't given a copy of Pandas and People, was she? A. No, she was not.	Section 17 notes
Section 18 Q. So the only required textbook for that class was that biology book that was creating all the controversy on June 7th and June 14th. Is that correct? A. To my knowledge, the only required book is that book, in addition to supplemental materials that the instructor has. Q. Now, you made a comment in your direct testimony that intelligent design conflicts with your brand of religion. A. Yes. Q. Is intelligent design another brand of religion? A. No. What I'm saying is that I believe intelligent design, as well as the ideas of creationism, in particular, the Young Earth creationists, which, I'm sorry, I don't agree with. I don't agree with the age of, you know, the earth and their opinion. There are things that I do not believe. And I do not believe the same things as the board members who adopted that statement. Q. And so your understanding is intelligent design is the same as Young Earth creationism? A. Well, to my understanding, intelligent design just presupposes that everything in life is too complex, that it has to be designed. But I also know that creationism was used repeatedly with the term -- or, I'm sorry, not with the term "intelligent design." Intelligent design came up after the fact. But I do know that, in its original context, it was creationism that was being used. And when I think of creationists, again, I think of Young Earth creationists, and I do not subscribe to that way of thinking. Q. And so, again, you're associating Young Earth creationism with intelligent design? A. There is a connection in my mind, yes. Q. If you could be shown that intelligent design does not require the action of a supernatural creator and, in fact, is based on observable and empirical facts, would you change your opinion? A. I believe that if intelligent design could be proved to be scientific, then I would believe it would belong in a science classroom. Would I believe it? I don't know that scientifically I'm qualified to say, you know, that I believe many scientific concepts because I'm -- I'm not a scientist. But I suppose that if intelligent design could follow scientific methods, then -- and it were proven to be scientific by scientists, it was accepted by scientific communities, then I would have no reason not to accept that.	Section 18 notes
Section 19 Q. I want to explore your understanding of what has actually taken place in this ninth-grade biology class that your daughter Child1 is presently taking. Is it your understanding that Darwin's theory of evolution will be taught in this class pursuant to the Pennsylvania academic standards? A. I would hope so. And as far as I know, that is the case, because Dover says that it is a standards-based school, and so I assume that when they say that and they say that students have to pass certain material before they can be advanced into new material, that they would have to be abiding by the state standards. Q. And I take it from your answer you have no objection to that? A. To following state standards, no, I have no objection. Q. And so it's your understanding that the Pennsylvania state standards require students to learn about Darwin's theory of evolution and eventually take a standardized test of which that theory is a part of it? A. Yes, the PSSA test, yes. Q. And you have no objection to that? A. To my students taking a PSSA test, well, you know, I -- being an educator, I'm not in love with PSSA tests or standardized tests. But if you're asking me if I object to my daughter taking a standardized test with that information on it, of course not. I would hope that they would provide lots of academic information on those tests. Q. And is it your understanding that because Dover is a standards-driven district, that they're going to focus their class time on preparing students to achieve proficiency on those standard-based assessments? A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Q. Yes. Is it your understanding that because Dover is a standard-based district, the class instruction is going to focus on preparing students to achieve proficiency on those standard-based tests that we were just describing? A. Not only is that my understanding, but that is what I would expect. Q. And you have no objection to that? A. No, I don't. Q. Is it your understanding that because Dover is a standards-driven district, that students will not be tested on the intelligent design theory? A. As I know it and as it is written, there is no test on intelligent design.	Section 19 notes
Section 20 Q. And from your previous answer, I believe you do understand that the Dover School District purchased, for its ninth-grade biology class, the 2004 edition of the Miller and Levine biology book. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And you have no objection to that book being used in the class? A. No, I do not. Q. Is it your understanding that this biology book provides thorough coverage of Darwin's theory of evolution? A. Actually, did you ask me if it's my understanding or if -- Q. If it's your understanding. I mean, you have to testify about your knowledge, ma'am. A. Okay. What I've seen of actually Darwin in the textbook, in my opinion, is actually quite slim. It follows state standards, of course. And, actually, to me, it gives more of a historical context of Darwin than anything as far as what I have read. And I did look at that section, and I looked basically through the book. And it appears to be historical mainly in context of Darwin's time frame and what he did for science. Q. Has Dr. Miller left the courtroom? A. Maybe we should ask. So if you're asking me if I feel it's enough or if it's -- I'm not sure what it is you're asking me about that. I feel, actually, that there are topics that probably could be explored in more detail, but I understand that there are limitations within any textbook that you have to hit on core concepts. I believe that core concepts are covered, but I think that, in my opinion, what I've looked at, it's historical context. Q. Is it your understanding that it presents Darwin's theory of evolution in a manner that is consistent with its standing in the scientific community? A. As much as I know about the scientific community -- and, you know, you have to remember that's not my discipline. But as much as I know about what the high school science standards say, it would be in standing with that. As far as the scientific community, I really can't go there, because I know that there is a lot more about Darwin than is in that textbook. I mean, I can absolutely say that without knowing everything about Darwin or knowing everything about science.	Section 20 notes
Section 21 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that what's in the biology book is inconsistent with what the scientific community -- A. Absolutely not, no. No, I would have no reason to believe that.	Section 21 notes
Section 22 Q. Is it your understanding that the book Of Pandas and People was placed in the library for students to review? A. Yes. Q. It's your understanding that no student was required to read any portion of the Pandas book? A. Right, just as no student is required to read anything that's in the library unless they choose to. Q. You have no objection to Pandas being in the library? A. No, absolutely not. I don't object to Pandas being in the library, just like I don't object to, you know, any of the other books being in the library, as long as -- as long as it's the appropriate level and -- you know, I mean, there is a censorship process that goes into putting books in the library. So, I mean, as long as it has gone through that process and it's approved to be there, I don't have a problem with it being there.	Section 22 notes
Section 23 Q. The statement that the school district developed to be read as part of the biology class, is it your understanding that the statement that was drafted in January, 2005, or for use in January, 2005, was modified in June of 2005? Are you aware of that? A. Can you say that again? Q. I'm sorry, I wasn't that precise. The original statement that was drafted by the Dover School District was modified in June of 2005. Are you aware of that? A. Well, I'm aware that that statement was modified several times. In fact, there were different drafts of that statement that I had seen. The exact modification, are you telling me that from the time that they had approved it in October, it was modified before it was read in January? Because it was again read in, I believe, like May, and there was a change from that point in time, unless I'm incorrect and that is the change that I'm thinking of. Q. Were you aware that there was a change made to the statement at one point to indicate that Pandas was in the library, as well as additional resources in the library addressing intelligent design? A. Yes, I am aware that there was a change. Q. Are you aware of that change? A. Yes.	Section 23 notes
Section 24 Q. Is it your understanding that some of these additional books that were put in the library are actually critical of intelligent design? A. Actually, I am, because I recall them -- an organization actually sending the library those books, because there was controversy in those books being put in there, too. And there were many members of the community who had called to see whether those books had actually gotten there or not, into the library, because we weren't certain that those books were going to be allowed in the library, permitted in the library. Q. They're in the library? A. Well, a parent -- the books that are critical to -- Q. Yes. A. I'm assuming that they had gotten there. Q. You never checked? A. There were a couple instances where friends of mine had tried to check on the status of the books in the library but were not permitted to go in at that time. So I am only assuming that those books are there now because I am being told that they are. But as for myself walking into a library and seeing them there, I did not. Q. Do you have any objection to these additional books being placed in the library? A. No, I do not. MR. MUISE: No further questions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Any redirect? MR. HARVEY: No, Your Honor. THE COURT: Ma'am, you may step down. That will complete your testimony, and you may call your next witness.	Section 24 notes

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