Talk:Holy Blood, Holy Grail

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I'm pretty sure the Priory of Sion and the Elders of Zion are unrelated. Just cause their last words rhyme, they're not connected. The fake "elders of zion" has nothing to do with Jesus and his family (if he had one). ThunderkatzHo! 11:27, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

The whole book is based on various hoaxes and misunderstandings. That's why I added: "The theories are not generally accepted by historians." perhaps we should make this clearer?--Bob_M (talk) 11:31, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
Wait, does the book say that the Priory of Sion is the basis for the Elders of Zion? Or did Jtl just add that in as extra information? If the former, then it stays; if the latter, it should be removed. ThunderkatzHo! 11:34, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
To be honest I can't remember. I read it about 25 years ago, at the time I thought it was quite good but later reading convinced me it was a load of xxxx.--Bob_M (talk) 12:35, 2 August 2007 (CDT)
There is no connection. The Elders of Zion hoax was created by the Russian secret police as a pretext for the pogroms. I'm going to remove it from this article, it really doesn't belong. Totnesmartin 07:48, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

see: http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/35.html (protocols/elders/zion 193.113.235.182 08:15, 4 August 2007 (CDT) Oops Keepthem coming. 08:20, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

I was going to mention more on Elders, but I realised i was going off-topic. Totnesmartin 10:06, 4 August 2007 (CDT)


The book and the Protocols[edit]

Ok, I've just had a quick look at a PDF of the book and it has quite a lot to say about the protocols. They seem to believe that they were a fake but based on an original I've copied a few illustrative sections below. Wonderful conspiracy theory stuff.........


Experts today concur and ..rightly so, we concluded that the Protocols, at least in their present form, are a vicious and insidious forgery. .....Modern scholars have dismissed them as a total forgery, a wholly spurious document concocted by anti-Semitic interests intent on discrediting Judaism. And yet the Protocols themselves argue strongly against such a conclusion.....The text speaks repeatedly,for example, of the advent of a “Masonic Kingdom’, and of a “King of the blood of Sion’, who will preside over this “Masonic Kingdom’. It asserts that the future king will be of ‘the dynastic roots of King David’. It affirms that ‘the King of the Jews will be the real Pope’.....1) There was an original text on which the published version of the Protocols was based. This original text was not a forgery. On the contrary it was authentic. But it had nothing whatever to do with Judaism or an ‘international Jewish conspiracy’. It issued rather from some Masonic organisation or Masonically oriented secret society which incorporated the word “Sion’. 2) The original text on which the published version of the Protocols was based need not have been provocative or inflammatory in its language.....

Please don't blame me for this. I don't believe a word of it and I'm only supplying information.--Bob_M (talk) 10:44, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

Oh all right then. Can I have a ref for that to go in my Protocols article? Totnesmartin 10:53, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
Sorry to be dense - but when you sat a "ref" what do you mean? I've got the PDF on my PC - I don't know if there is one on the net (If that is what your looking for). I suppose we could find some other way of communicating, but I'd have to be very careful to not include the PDF as an attachment by mistake as that would be unethical. --Bob_M (talk) 11:02, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

I was hoping you had the book, so I could give a proper reference (author, publisher, year, page number, maybe ISBN.)My intention is for that whole article to be referenced. Totnesmartin 11:10, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

Sorry - only the PDF.--Bob_M (talk) 11:54, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

Habsburgs[edit]

(Accidentally reverted)

Which 'head of the house of Habsburg' needs clarifying - Otto decided to retire in his 90s and pass on the title to his son.

(Otto is probably the current claimant to the 'oldest living royal') Jackiespeel (talk) 14:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


Joseph of Arimathea[edit]

Given that Joseph of Arimathea was reputedly the first owner of the Holy Grail, and went to England, how come nobody has brought him, the Glastonbury Festival, Arthur, the Fisher King and all into the story.— Unsigned, by: 82.198.250.67 / talk / contribs

And how come you never sign your talk page comments?--BobSpring is sprung! 17:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Not Number 6. The above is 'plot devicicum' - free to anyone interested.
Mmm. Looks like that weird spam bot is back again.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Reference to The Prisoner (either TV series) and fanfic terminology: and why not be minimalist/cryptic?

The Magi[edit]

... and the Siccari (as in Judas) were in on the plot. The Siccari were 'unobserved assassins' (and so could get Mary and infants - Iesus' oldest children would have been perhaps 10) - and the Magi had recognized the infant Jesus, and contacts were maintained).

This is no worse than the HBHG plot - and *the persons were demonstrably around at the time.*

Also - what proportion of Europeans would be distant descendants of Jesus and Mary. If the heir has a bastard son, six daughters and a legitimate son, who is his actual heir as far as the bloodline is concerned - and do the children of the union of the great grand children of daughters three and five have a stronger claim than that of the first with no such intermarriage? — Unsigned, by: 82.44.143.26 / talk / contribs

More arguments against[edit]

There was a generational gap - so the details of Jesus' family were largely forgotten (list the children of Lyndon Johnson or John Major without recourse to Wikipedia/standard biographies) - and most people would argue the case that the two leaders' cabinets had a more significant influence on history than family members).

It would have been easier for the Church to send the 19th century priest to the local 'Home for religious with religious delusions' ('given the ignorance of the peasants, turned to excessive study of the Bible and thought his dreams were real... wonder what that fellow Fraud, Froid whatever would make of them...) than paying blackmail. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 17:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The Roman soldiers looking for "Rabbi Joshua's wife and children' would find any number of 'Mariams whose hubby Joshua went off and left her with the kids' in Judea: they would also speak the language, have residency rights. They go to France - they have no residency rights, no knowledge of local languages, and no prospects.

Also - where is the paperwork/family tree (as there are likely to be many lines that die out without heirs etc)? 171.33.197.73 (talk) 16:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)