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i am quite fascinated by the fact that, as someone here suggests, "most neoshamans think of themselves as . ..." that anyone here at RW knows how neoshamans think of themselves? I mean, how do you think of yourself? Like me to tell you? Carptrash 13:40, 7 December 2008 (EST)

That better? Researcher 16:31, 7 December 2008 (EST)

Okay. When was the last time you heard a neoshaman describe himself or herself as anything? I mean, I realize that something along those lines is needed in order to set up the punch-line in the next sentence. So fine, keep it, but don't confuse it with reality. I've been involved with neoshamanism for 20 years, hang out with people who have been at it a lot longer than that, am perfectly happy having you folks classify it as pseudoscience, but don't fool yourselves into believing that you have any idea what you are talking about. Or, to put it another way, "Sure, it's fine." Carptrash 18:57, 7 December 2008 (EST)

As a long time neopagan, I've seen PLENTY of this. Scads of books, plenty of speakers, etc. This is based on personal experience, not just prejudice. (One friend of mine had an acquaintance who went to a Cherokee reservation in order to better understand "neoshamanism," and was basically kicked out the next day.) Researcher 23:36, 7 December 2008 (EST)

This is a pretty classic example of what I think of as the rational thought process in action. We go from," One friend of mine had an acquaintance "to" most neoshamans describe themselves as " in one step. From ONE to MOST in one step. From one we logically deduce the other. The rational mind in action. Carptrash 02:10, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Re-read my post. This is not just ONE friend. This is one friend, countless books, lots of websites, and people brought in to be speakers on this. The one friend is just the clearest example, but there are plenty others besides. Researcher 09:12, 8 December 2008 (EST)

In an almost related synchronicity, I am right now listening to a live native American music show on KLDK and Albert is playing Indian versions of Christmas music. I just chatted with him for a moment, but chose not to include him in our discussion other than as a side line. Carptrash 19:36, 8 December 2008 (EST)