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Talk:Trans-exclusionary radical feminism

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Claims and rebuttals[edit]

We should make a section about arguments that TERFs use and and RationalWiki's rebuttals to these arguments. We can use this page for reference: https://old.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/gilded/ LuodiWang (talk) 16:58, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

TheTerfs.com has a page dedicated to deconstructing TERF tropes: http://theterfs.com/resources/deconstructing-terf-tropes/ --Yisfidri (talk) 03:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Looks good! I’ll try to add it later. LuodiWang (talk) 13:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Need some sources[edit]

You can look up my claims in TERFs and misandry and TERFs and the far-right using Google as most of them are justified. I don't have time to add sources now.

Hawaiianred (talk)

Speakers Corner assault[edit]

I have reverted GrammarCommie's revert of my correction. Maria MacLachlan was the one who was assaulted at Speakers' Corner: she was assaulted by three individuals in their twenties, one of whom now has a criminal record of assault by beating for that assault on her. In court, Wolf admitted striking her. She did not 'choke a teen', was not arrested, questioned, charged and did not stand trial for any assault: she was the victim of the assault, and there was absolutely no suggestion that she choked anyone. The judge said "I reject the defence of the defendant that [Wolf] was acting in self-defence or defence of another, or for the prevention of crime." The assertion that Maria choked anyone is a lie that cannot be substantiated and is libelous. Zeno (talk) 11:30, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

David Gerard If you want to try to maintian that she choked a teen, provide the evidence. Reverted.

Someone get a source. First person to put in evidence wins. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Best and fullest video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx9pyvI-V7M

I remember when this site used to be good, rather than a woke POMO circle-jerk.

Good for you. If you wished to "improve" the site, you could always, y'know, join. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:16, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not the right type. This used to be a website written largely by scientists and other academics to refute many of the madder arguments coming out from the religious right. I'm neither an academic, nor woke enough to be of value to this community. When this "Rational" website starts claiming men are women and women are men - with no dissent allowed - that's when it completely lost its way. Good luck to you. Please don't allow them to smear Maria Mclachlan again. — Unsigned, by: 83.217.101.3 / talk / contribs

I'll let TeamFourStar see this PRATT out. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Maria MacLachlan did indeed put Tara Wolf's girlfriend in a headlock. https://twitter.com/joss_prior/status/908287043809284096 LuodiWang (talk) 18:37, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Nope. Try again, thinking critically and rationally this time. Try watching the videos that were all shown in court in full - all three of them (including the one from the trans activists side) - from the start and read the various news reports of the trial rather than believing what you're told a cherry-picked still shows. Think for yourself. And remember what the Judge said: "I reject the defence of the defendant that [Wolf] was acting in self-defence or defence of another, or for the prevention of crime." And remember who it was who was arrested, charged, tried and found guilty and who now has a criminal record of assault by beating. Reverted. Zeno (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

This was a court case, right? Someone can get records from the proceedings and analyze them then, right? Or is it different in Britain?
Also, Maclachlan did admit to kicking Wolf's partner, as pointed out in that Express article you cited. Can we please just get court records for this? RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
The site is written by Maria MacLachlan's perspective. Of course she's going to try to describe her event with her self-righteous lens.

But when such people lack the empathy to understand why a woman who’s been abused by a man doesn’t want to share a room in woman’s shelter or shower communally in a prison with somebody who has a penis, when they express classic sadistic male sexual fantasies to try to belittle and humiliate women, when they resort to bullying and violence to try to intimidate women who disagree with them – as they did with me at Speakers Corner – that’s when I start fighting back and this website I am creating is part of my personal fightback as well as a way of channeling my anger over what happened to me.

For those who don’t understand the name of this website, ‘peak trans’ – a term originally coined by a radical feminist named Jane Crafts – is the moment when you realise that much of your sympathy and support for transgenderism has evaporated.

Bleh. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
True, but the Express article isn't, and Maclachlan's views have nothing to do with the issue. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
The Express article is far more informative than posts by MacLachlan (who also repeatedly refers to Wolf as a man). Now I can say that the assault was bad but it's not like Maclachlan was acting in good faith. I still agree with the court here, as physical harm is never justified and Wolf has said stupid things, but I do understand trans people feeling threatened. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, though I still believe this means Zeno's version is correct, regardless of views on trans rights. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:21, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, she was assaulted. I amended that part, but Zeno cannot leave out why she was assaulted and what kind of assault it was, so I specified that she was stricken on the back and shoulder and the perpetrator was convicted for assault. We have to mention that Maclachlan wasn't let off the hook easily during court proceedings though. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Being struck by the three assailants was just part of their assault on her as the videos clearly show. There was nothing to let Maria off the hook for: she was not on trial and all three attempts at a defence by Wolf were rejected by the Judge as that article quotes. Zeno (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, which is how Wolf was convicted, because her defense was rejected. I feel all the necessary information is here, including the "assault" language you want to add, so I don't see what's the problem any more. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:42, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Aw... bless. Have I been blocked from editing and correcting the page now? It is still facutally inaccurate and libellous. Zeno (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

No, it has been locked because you were edit warring by repeatedly reverting edits with at least 3 users. Edit warring is not how you improve articles. Also, asserting your views as "facts" and "rationality" is not suddenly going to make them facts or rational. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

You improve articles by providing evidence for assertions made and not doubling down when challenged. Zeno (talk) 19:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

The evidence I accepted was the Express article and I made the edits accordingly. I rejected the posts made by Maclachlan (and the video you deemed best that tries to defend the TERF movement by complaining that "TERF" is a slur employed by "misogynists") because there is no way of garnering a more neutral point of view. The video tries to appeal to the victim by calling her a "grandma" and left out the part where she wanted to film trans people (and TERFs are known by trans activists to post faces to sites to incite harassment) despite being told to stop. She doesn't like transgender people; she's not going to make a fair appraisal of events that happened to her. She can talk about how she's assaulted and all, which is fair, but what's not fair is calling Wolf a "he" and not apologizing for her own inappropriate behavior like disrespecting privacy. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Why don't you look at the three videos that were admissible in court! These are the videos on which the judge made his decision. One of them shows clearly that Tara Wolf struck me on the back while his partner and one other where trying to wrest my camera from me - not "firmly gripping Tara Wolf's girlfriend". This is another fabrication in place of the ones edited by Zeno earlier. There is, of course, no evidence "that Maclachlan was continuing filming despite being told to stop" either, even though the judge chose to believe Tara mates on this one.

It is simply not true to allege that I don't like transgender people, nor am I a radical feminist. I have never claimed to be one, I have never posted any footage or photos of trans people anywhere and at the time of the assault I wasn't in any way trans exclusionary and you have no evidence to contradict any of this. I did not 'admit' to kicking my assailant - I volunteered the information that my assailant had kicked me and I had kicked him back. Finally, I have nothing to apologise for. Tara Wolf is a male. He doesn't have a GRC and he does have a penis. Expecting me to refer to him as anything other than 'he', is both irrational and misogynistic. Why is this site called 'Rational' wiki?MariaMacLachlan (talk) 21:26, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Insisting that Tara Wolf is male only because she has a penis does mean you don't respect her trans identity, and it's an attack that transphobes resort to (hence my statement that you don't like transgender people; this statement can be generalized as if the person wasn't trans, you wouldn't go that direction), so if you're willing to not be labeled as one, then don't deny her identity, no matter how she has hurt you. You can call Wolf an assaulter or a thug or a bully, which is all right but it is not good form to attack her personal traits, even if she hurts you, especially to try to paint her as a male aggressor (all according to negative male stereotype); it opens up for actual transphobic attacks on her. I'm also not denying the judge's decision. I agree that Wolf assaulted you and what she and the other trans activists did was wrong (and was completely counterproductive to their goals), and it was personally hard for me to watch you getting beaten like this, and it is also difficult to watch as in a scuffle has happened, but it's a tussle of bodies so hard to pinpoint stuff. But after that point, I'm simply repeating what the Express article reported, especially regarding the judge's decision to refuse compensation and the judge's reasons for you, which you can agree has happened. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't respect his trans identity and I am not prepared to pander to transgender ideology any more than I am prepared to pander to any other irrational belief system. He is a male aggressor and a misogynist. That may not be 'good form' according to your ideological beliefs but your insistence that this person is a woman in any sense of the word is bad form according to my own world view, which is one based on science, skepticism and rationalism. I'm sure you must know that some trans people also reject the ideology you promote; they - like me - are rationalists and I link to many of their articles on my site.
It's really not that difficult to see from the first video - taken by one of Wolf's friends - that I was filming from several metres away, when Wolf ran at me and swatted my camera. It's also not difficult to see his friends attack me as I'm retreating and Wolf come up and strike me on the back. Face it, you are unable to be objective and unbiased on this and I am a soft target.MariaMacLachlan (talk) 22:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Then I don't understand why you deny disliking transgender people, whose identity is built around this "ideology" you deem an "irrational belief system". It's similar to people saying they don't like the homosexual lifestyle, the very component of homosexual people, but they also don't have a problem with homosexual people, which is self-contradicting. Our article, transgender discusses about the reality of transgender people, which shows evidence of brain matter between trans woman and a cis woman. Nevertheless, you have no grounds whatsoever to pronounce attacks on Wolf like this. Attack her for her aggression, not her gender identity and physical appearance.
I've never denied assault on you, and I've seen the video. I've rewritten an article to update what I've seen (including that those people hit first), but I've kept the reporting by Express intact (which includes the part where they said you admitted to kicking and your own lack of denial of your kicking), including the judge's refusal to compensate you. It doesn't get more "objective" than trying to summarize what I've seen on the video and reporting from other sites including this one and the aforementioned Express article. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Just a thought from someone who used to be really active here and is a mod on RWFB and happens to be trans and therefore knows a bit more than you do about the subject Maria: coming onto RW and being TERFy is not and has never been acceptable, because, get this, the science supports trans people's view of how their brains work. If you're going to call being trans or supporting trans rights an "irrational belief system", yer gonna have a bad time around here. EVDebs (talk) 00:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Trans people are becoming more accepted in society in general and thus the position of a TERF is becoming more unpalatable, if it isn't unsavory already. It's not just RationalWiki. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:42, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

AIBU to point out TERFs on Mumsnet?[edit]

There's a whole lotta TERF going down at Mumsnet, normally an uncontroversial parenting forum but somehow there's a bunch of trans haters there who now think, apparently, that the NSPCC (Britain' main child protection charity) is allowing trans people to groom children. They've gone completely off the deep end. 92.5.141.137 (talk) 08:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Mumsnet is a notorious TERF snake pit. Supposedly they've started to crack down on it, but clearly it isn't going very far as of yet. EVDebs (talk) 23:02, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't have a link, but I recall the founder/CEO is onside with TERFiness and defended it publicly - David Gerard (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Veterofemminismo[edit]

This is a nice Italian term for this reacctionary approach to feminism. The origin of the term derives from the term "veterocommunista", used by the Italian New Left against the Stalinists of the PCI. I think that veterofemminism is a good name for TERF's and SWERF's.

https://www.wikisessualita.org/wiki/Veterofemminismo

https://progettogenderqueer.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/veterofemminismo-gpa-e-persone-transgender/ — Unsigned, by: 190.174.34.35 / talk