RationalWiki's 2019 Fundraiser

There is no RationalWiki without you. We are a small non-profit with no staff – we are hundreds of volunteers who document pseudoscience and crankery around the world every day. We will never allow ads because we must remain independent. We cannot rely on big donors with corresponding big agendas. We are not the largest website around, but we believe we play an important role in defending truth and objectivity.

If everyone who saw this today donated $5, we would meet our goal for 2019.

Fighting pseudoscience isn't free.
We are 100% user-supported! Help and donate $5, $20 or whatever you can today with PayPal Logo.png!

Donations so far: $2900Goal: $6000

Talk:Trans-exclusionary radical feminism

From RationalWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
This page is automatically archived by Archiver
Archives for this talk page: <1>

Completedly biased and one-sided article[edit]

Makes no attempt to properly explain the radical feminist ideas concerning sex and gender, the fundamental nature of the first and the destructive nature of the second. Dumbfounded to find this article on something calling itself a "rational" wiki.— Unsigned, by: 109.181.3.19 / talk / contribs

On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you. "But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
The crackpot views of TERFs? That's in the TERF article.—チーズバーガー • めん Spinning-Burger.gif (talkstalk) 21:30, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Absurd Nonsense[edit]

This article would fail any objective test of it being rational, objective and fair. It is straightforward dogma full of straw-men and unbalanced misrepresentations.

On twitter, after being told to 'be smarter' I posted a challenge to @RationalWiki to create a definition of "woman" that is consistent with the article.

Here is my challenge in full:

So, @RationalWiki. You want me to be "smarter". So help me over my stumbling block as this appears to boil down to a pretty simple problem. I can think of no good definition of the word 'woman' that allows your 'TERF' article to make any sense and not just be loaded rubbish. Can you define the word 'woman' that allows me to get over this stumbling block?

All I ask is that your definition is:

a) Rational (of course) b) Non-circular c) Objective d) Useful e) Complete

What do I mean by this?

a) Rational - well being RationalWiki, obviously we do not want to include pseudoscientific concepts, superstitious or irrational elements. Do we? We want our definition based on sound, rational and well established principles. b) Non-circular - many who have tried use the word 'woman' in their defitnion. "Brexit is Brexit' - we learn nothing when your definition depends on the word you want to define. Also, shifting ambiguity to related words also does not help - so define related words too. c) Objective - the definition should not be open to subjective interpretation. The demarcation strength of the word should not depend on who is using it - we should all be able to come up with the same answer in principle, independently and without prompting. d) Useful - the word should be usable in practical applications, such as when an e.g. 1) archeologist, 2) doctor, 3) biologist uses the word, it will have scientific and practical rigour resulting in differential outcomes in these disciplines. e) Complete - The definition should have enough strength to be able to cover as many cases as possible and have no counterexamples. I get that a few individuals are intersex meaning their sex status is ambiguous and maybe impossible to classify. If this can be minimised then great.

If you think any of the criteria above are too stringent then please justify why we should weaken our definition by not insisting on rationality, unambiguousness, objectivity, usefulness and completeness. I believe I can create such a definition that fulfils these criteria. If you cannot define 'woman' with this rigour then perhaps you should explain why we should abandon having this word with a clear, objective meaning and then please describe what function this word now has in language if it has no shared, objective meaning? Lecanardnoir (talk) 13:17, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

@Lecanardnoir What the fuck are you talking about? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:25, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
For those struggling, I will boil it down to a few words: how do you define the term 'woman'? Lecanardnoir (talk) 13:32, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
I understood the part about not knowing what a woman is, what I didn;t understand is the whole "challenge via twitter" bit. I mean you do realize that not all of us use twitter right? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Then this may not be for you but for whoever operates @RationalWiki who appears to have some issues. In general though, this article is appalling nonsense. It is not consistent with any rational definition of the word 'woman'. If I am wrong, then please feel free to contribute. Lecanardnoir (talk) 13:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
First off if you could link the tweets at the heart of this matter, yours and RW(twitter)'s, then perhaps I might be able share some insight on the matter, or at least gather more context. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:48, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Having been engaged with discussions about gender on twitter, the @RationalWiki account told me to be 'smarter' and directed me to the page on TERFS on the RationalWiki website. https://twitter.com/RationalWiki/status/991261572025724928 The page shames rational and fair discourse. A far more balanced and fair approach would be to say that TERF is a term used by some to harass and silence women who are critical about various ideas around gender and identity. In particular, they point out that biological sex in humans is not mutable and that gender identity is not innate or forming some 'essence' in people. As such, women are "adult human females" and that gender dysphoric males who claim to be real women are mistaken, and instead are merely adopting cultural and stereotypical 'gender' roles and forms. The term TERF is usually accompanied by threats to assault the women who hold such views and should not form part of rational discourse. My challenge above is for @RationalWiki to come up with an alternative definition of the word 'woman' where this current article can withstand scrutiny.Lecanardnoir (talk) 14:03, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Oh fuck off. Dendlai (talk) 20:23, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
So, a quick refusal and one down. Next? Lecanardnoir (talk) 20:29, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
You aren't the first TERF to come here demanding radical changes. You may find that me and others who suffer from gender dysphoria don't quite agree with your unscientific views. "TERF is a slur!!!" is something only, well, TERFS ever say. Dendlai (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
It is a simple request. And one common in rational scepticism: to ask you to define your central terms. So far, you have behaved like the best homeopath: bluster, indigence and refusal. Keep talking... [S95.147.39.33 (talk) 21:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC) (Should have logged in... Lecanardnoir (talk) 21:42, 1 May 2018 (UTC))

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Lecanardnoirtalk The problem with what your asking is that it’s an impossible demand. We are going delve into the philosophy of language a bit specifically into Wittgenstein and his idea of family resemblance concepts. You may be familiar with this line of reasoning by some feminist philosopher’s rejection of gender essentialism such as by Cressida Heyes and Natalie Parrot.

What Wittgenstein argued in his posthumously published book “The Philosophical Investigations” is that the meaning of language is determined by use. One of the ways he illustrates this is with the concept of family resemblance in language. Wittgenstein uses “game” as an example arguing that there is no singular essential property that exists within all the things we call games that makes a game, a game. You may be tempted to say games are played but so are instruments and we wouldn’t necessarily call playing an instrument as identical to playing a game. You also may “play” music on a stereo system, or “play” a movie. “Play” in of itself is a word with ambiguous meaning that is context dependent. You may want to say that games are enjoyable, but that is not necessarily true, and what’s enjoyable or fun is also subjective. I for one don’t find board games particularly enjoyable but I wouldn’t exclude them as games. I find sex enjoyable but I wouldn’t necessarily call sex a game. You may say games have rules but so do classrooms and workspaces. You may say that games have more then one player, but what about solitaire? Or single-player video games? The truth is that you cannot give a perfect definition to the word "game". Your definition is either gonna be too broad and include things we wouldn’t refer to as games, or it will be to narrow and exclude things we would refer to as games. The same can be said for the concept of “woman” or “female”. You can’t assign a essential quality or a series of essential properties that would create a perfect definition that would define what it means to be female or a woman. This is due to Individual variation in neurology, women with swyer syndrome, AIS, women who have had hysterectomies, women with disorders that prevent the development of female secondary sex characteristics, etc.

My biology textbook for example defines female as being the organism that produces the larger gamete, but obviously we know of individuals who for whatever reason don’t produce gametes at all, and obviously some biologists may not use that definition in the context of their research. Other scientific fields also use subtly different definitions and terminology, so such concepts as male, female, man, woman, sex and gender are context dependent in meaning depending on what perspective you are studying it from. That doesn’t necessarily invalidate the concepts either. If you ask a sociologist who applies feminist theory to their research what it means to be a man, you will get a totally different response then if you were to ask a evolutionary psychologist, for example. Even in biology what it means to be male or female is now being questioned a bit; here's a good article on the subject: https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943.

When you start asking questions like "what does it mean to be a human being?", "What is time?", or "What does it mean to be a woman?" You are moving away from concrete empiricism and directly into the world of abstract concepts, and it’s imperative to differentiate between the two. You defined woman as an "adult human female", and sure why not? But why would say a trans-woman necessarily be excluded from an being adult human female? Many trans-woman especially post transition have relevant biological differences to myself as a cis male. They can have female secondary sex characteristics, have their sexual hormonal make up be primarily estrogen or estradiol dominant, if the hormone hypothesis regarding neurological sex differences is correct, then HRT would necessarily change the anatomy of their brain and result in changes in cognition, though it’s likely some of these neural differences exist prior to transitioning at least according to some research. There often times are or can be relevant biological differences between trans women and cis men so why can they not be considered female?

I mean even your definition of women still comes with it philosophical problems. You defined woman as an adult human female, well what does it mean to be an adult? Female? Human?. Wittgenstein would argue that these are not philosophical problems as again he believed meaning was determined by use, as he famously said there are no philosophical problems just linguistic confusions. Words like female, human, and adult may just be family resemblance concepts rather than essentialist categories. Regardless though if you can’t provide a perfect working definition of the word game, you still know what a game is right? So when you come here asking for a perfect rational definition of what a woman is, you might as well be demanding for indefinite proof of the existence of unicorns. Shit doesn’t exist. --Only Sort of Dumb 09:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Goodpost.gif--Yisfidri (talk) 05:08, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

jesus tap-dancing christ. БaбyЛuigiOнФire(T|C) 21:05, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I support trans women to the fullest, but I am not reading any of that. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:07, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
The above is essentially one of those arguments that eventually ends in "nothing is real", and can be safely ignored. We actually do have very real definitions of "human" and "female" that people use all the time, and we even have a real definition of "adult" that everyone hates and never wants to use.
That aside, the real problem is that people don't want to agree on what words mean, they want their group's particular jargon at the expense of everyone else. If there's an issue with the article—and there is an issue with the article, as it paints a broad stroke representing a minority of a particular group—this is at the heart of it. I suppose even daring to say that makes me a TERF somehow, and that fundamentally disagreeing with Lecanardnoir isn't good enough.
The only other thing I can really say on this is that I don't understand why people are making a big deal out of exceptions. A lot of the honest arguments supporting the whole "there are more than two sexes" thing boil down to worshipping exceptions. Come to think of it, judging by basically every case I've heard of a genuine intersex person, they typically align way more closely with either male or female than they end up "somewhere in between". We have very real definitions of "male" and "female" that are incredibly useful, and a bunch of exceptions (some of which are being misinterpreted) are still exceptions. 45.36.236.209 (talk) 13:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't boil down to nothing is real at all that's a non-sequitur. The exceptions are important and if you have ever taken a logical reasoning course you may understand why. If you make a universal statement that all things that have the property of being human have the property of being either male or female ∀x[Hx --> (Mx v Fx)], that is a logical contradiction to the existential statement that claims that there exists something that has the property of being human that is neither male nor female ∃x[Hx & ~(Mx v Fx)]. Here is a reference if your not familiar with predicate logic - https://www.iep.utm.edu/sqr-opp/. In order for the existentialist statement to be true there only needs to exist one example of someone who is human and neither male nor female. So there is a significance to these exceptions as they work as a logical refutation that there is only two genders (or alternatively two sexes). Any assertion otherwise literally flies in the face of logic. You can also do this predicate logic exercise for other claims regarding gender essentialism and those pesky exceptions. All Women have a uterus? Not as long as there exists Women who don't. --Only Sort of Dumb 09:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Claims and rebuttals[edit]

We should make a section about arguments that TERFs use and and RationalWiki's rebuttals to these arguments. We can use this page for reference: https://old.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/gilded/ LuodiWang (talk) 16:58, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

TheTerfs.com has a page dedicated to deconstructing TERF tropes: http://theterfs.com/resources/deconstructing-terf-tropes/ --Yisfidri (talk) 03:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Looks good! I’ll try to add it later. LuodiWang (talk) 13:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Need some sources[edit]

You can look up my claims in TERFs and misandry and TERFs and the far-right using Google as most of them are justified. I don't have time to add sources now.

Hawaiianred (talk)

Speakers Corner assault[edit]

I have reverted GrammarCommie's revert of my correction. Maria MacLachlan was the one who was assaulted at Speakers' Corner: she was assaulted by three individuals in their twenties, one of whom now has a criminal record of assault by beating for that assault on her. In court, Wolf admitted striking her. She did not 'choke a teen', was not arrested, questioned, charged and did not stand trial for any assault: she was the victim of the assault, and there was absolutely no suggestion that she choked anyone. The judge said "I reject the defence of the defendant that [Wolf] was acting in self-defence or defence of another, or for the prevention of crime." The assertion that Maria choked anyone is a lie that cannot be substantiated and is libelous. Zeno (talk) 11:30, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

David Gerard If you want to try to maintian that she choked a teen, provide the evidence. Reverted.

Someone get a source. First person to put in evidence wins. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Best and fullest video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx9pyvI-V7M

I remember when this site used to be good, rather than a woke POMO circle-jerk.

Good for you. If you wished to "improve" the site, you could always, y'know, join. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:16, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not the right type. This used to be a website written largely by scientists and other academics to refute many of the madder arguments coming out from the religious right. I'm neither an academic, nor woke enough to be of value to this community. When this "Rational" website starts claiming men are women and women are men - with no dissent allowed - that's when it completely lost its way. Good luck to you. Please don't allow them to smear Maria Mclachlan again. — Unsigned, by: 83.217.101.3 / talk / contribs

I'll let TeamFourStar see this PRATT out. RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Maria MacLachlan did indeed put Tara Wolf's girlfriend in a headlock. https://twitter.com/joss_prior/status/908287043809284096 LuodiWang (talk) 18:37, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Nope. Try again, thinking critically and rationally this time. Try watching the videos that were all shown in court in full - all three of them (including the one from the trans activists side) - from the start and read the various news reports of the trial rather than believing what you're told a cherry-picked still shows. Think for yourself. And remember what the Judge said: "I reject the defence of the defendant that [Wolf] was acting in self-defence or defence of another, or for the prevention of crime." And remember who it was who was arrested, charged, tried and found guilty and who now has a criminal record of assault by beating. Reverted. Zeno (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

This was a court case, right? Someone can get records from the proceedings and analyze them then, right? Or is it different in Britain?
Also, Maclachlan did admit to kicking Wolf's partner, as pointed out in that Express article you cited. Can we please just get court records for this? RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
The site is written by Maria MacLachlan's perspective. Of course she's going to try to describe her event with her self-righteous lens.

But when such people lack the empathy to understand why a woman who’s been abused by a man doesn’t want to share a room in woman’s shelter or shower communally in a prison with somebody who has a penis, when they express classic sadistic male sexual fantasies to try to belittle and humiliate women, when they resort to bullying and violence to try to intimidate women who disagree with them – as they did with me at Speakers Corner – that’s when I start fighting back and this website I am creating is part of my personal fightback as well as a way of channeling my anger over what happened to me.

For those who don’t understand the name of this website, ‘peak trans’ – a term originally coined by a radical feminist named Jane Crafts – is the moment when you realise that much of your sympathy and support for transgenderism has evaporated.

Bleh. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
True, but the Express article isn't, and Maclachlan's views have nothing to do with the issue. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
The Express article is far more informative than posts by MacLachlan (who also repeatedly refers to Wolf as a man). Now I can say that the assault was bad but it's not like Maclachlan was acting in good faith. I still agree with the court here, as physical harm is never justified and Wolf has said stupid things, but I do understand trans people feeling threatened. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, though I still believe this means Zeno's version is correct, regardless of views on trans rights. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:21, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, she was assaulted. I amended that part, but Zeno cannot leave out why she was assaulted and what kind of assault it was, so I specified that she was stricken on the back and shoulder and the perpetrator was convicted for assault. We have to mention that Maclachlan wasn't let off the hook easily during court proceedings though. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Being struck by the three assailants was just part of their assault on her as the videos clearly show. There was nothing to let Maria off the hook for: she was not on trial and all three attempts at a defence by Wolf were rejected by the Judge as that article quotes. Zeno (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, which is how Wolf was convicted, because her defense was rejected. I feel all the necessary information is here, including the "assault" language you want to add, so I don't see what's the problem any more. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:42, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Aw... bless. Have I been blocked from editing and correcting the page now? It is still facutally inaccurate and libellous. Zeno (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

No, it has been locked because you were edit warring by repeatedly reverting edits with at least 3 users. Edit warring is not how you improve articles. Also, asserting your views as "facts" and "rationality" is not suddenly going to make them facts or rational. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

You improve articles by providing evidence for assertions made and not doubling down when challenged. Zeno (talk) 19:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

The evidence I accepted was the Express article and I made the edits accordingly. I rejected the posts made by Maclachlan (and the video you deemed best that tries to defend the TERF movement by complaining that "TERF" is a slur employed by "misogynists") because there is no way of garnering a more neutral point of view. The video tries to appeal to the victim by calling her a "grandma" and left out the part where she wanted to film trans people (and TERFs are known by trans activists to post faces to sites to incite harassment) despite being told to stop. She doesn't like transgender people; she's not going to make a fair appraisal of events that happened to her. She can talk about how she's assaulted and all, which is fair, but what's not fair is calling Wolf a "he" and not apologizing for her own inappropriate behavior like disrespecting privacy. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Why don't you look at the three videos that were admissible in court! These are the videos on which the judge made his decision. One of them shows clearly that Tara Wolf struck me on the back while his partner and one other where trying to wrest my camera from me - not "firmly gripping Tara Wolf's girlfriend". This is another fabrication in place of the ones edited by Zeno earlier. There is, of course, no evidence "that Maclachlan was continuing filming despite being told to stop" either, even though the judge chose to believe Tara mates on this one.

It is simply not true to allege that I don't like transgender people, nor am I a radical feminist. I have never claimed to be one, I have never posted any footage or photos of trans people anywhere and at the time of the assault I wasn't in any way trans exclusionary and you have no evidence to contradict any of this. I did not 'admit' to kicking my assailant - I volunteered the information that my assailant had kicked me and I had kicked him back. Finally, I have nothing to apologise for. Tara Wolf is a male. He doesn't have a GRC and he does have a penis. Expecting me to refer to him as anything other than 'he', is both irrational and misogynistic. Why is this site called 'Rational' wiki?MariaMacLachlan (talk) 21:26, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Insisting that Tara Wolf is male only because she has a penis does mean you don't respect her trans identity, and it's an attack that transphobes resort to (hence my statement that you don't like transgender people; this statement can be generalized as if the person wasn't trans, you wouldn't go that direction), so if you're willing to not be labeled as one, then don't deny her identity, no matter how she has hurt you. You can call Wolf an assaulter or a thug or a bully, which is all right but it is not good form to attack her personal traits, even if she hurts you, especially to try to paint her as a male aggressor (all according to negative male stereotype); it opens up for actual transphobic attacks on her. I'm also not denying the judge's decision. I agree that Wolf assaulted you and what she and the other trans activists did was wrong (and was completely counterproductive to their goals), and it was personally hard for me to watch you getting beaten like this, and it is also difficult to watch as in a scuffle has happened, but it's a tussle of bodies so hard to pinpoint stuff. But after that point, I'm simply repeating what the Express article reported, especially regarding the judge's decision to refuse compensation and the judge's reasons for you, which you can agree has happened. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't respect his trans identity and I am not prepared to pander to transgender ideology any more than I am prepared to pander to any other irrational belief system. He is a male aggressor and a misogynist. That may not be 'good form' according to your ideological beliefs but your insistence that this person is a woman in any sense of the word is bad form according to my own world view, which is one based on science, skepticism and rationalism. I'm sure you must know that some trans people also reject the ideology you promote; they - like me - are rationalists and I link to many of their articles on my site.
It's really not that difficult to see from the first video - taken by one of Wolf's friends - that I was filming from several metres away, when Wolf ran at me and swatted my camera. It's also not difficult to see his friends attack me as I'm retreating and Wolf come up and strike me on the back. Face it, you are unable to be objective and unbiased on this and I am a soft target.MariaMacLachlan (talk) 22:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Then I don't understand why you deny disliking transgender people, whose identity is built around this "ideology" you deem an "irrational belief system". It's similar to people saying they don't like the homosexual lifestyle, the very component of homosexual people, but they also don't have a problem with homosexual people, which is self-contradicting. Our article, transgender discusses about the reality of transgender people, which shows evidence of brain matter between trans woman and a cis woman. Nevertheless, you have no grounds whatsoever to pronounce attacks on Wolf like this. Attack her for her aggression, not her gender identity and physical appearance.
I've never denied assault on you, and I've seen the video. I've rewritten an article to update what I've seen (including that those people hit first), but I've kept the reporting by Express intact (which includes the part where they said you admitted to kicking and your own lack of denial of your kicking), including the judge's refusal to compensate you. It doesn't get more "objective" than trying to summarize what I've seen on the video and reporting from other sites including this one and the aforementioned Express article. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:48, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Just a thought from someone who used to be really active here and is a mod on RWFB and happens to be trans and therefore knows a bit more than you do about the subject Maria: coming onto RW and being TERFy is not and has never been acceptable, because, get this, the science supports trans people's view of how their brains work. If you're going to call being trans or supporting trans rights an "irrational belief system", yer gonna have a bad time around here. EVDebs (talk) 00:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Trans people are becoming more accepted in society in general and thus the position of a TERF is becoming more unpalatable, if it isn't unsavory already. It's not just RationalWiki. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:42, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

AIBU to point out TERFs on Mumsnet?[edit]

There's a whole lotta TERF going down at Mumsnet, normally an uncontroversial parenting forum but somehow there's a bunch of trans haters there who now think, apparently, that the NSPCC (Britain' main child protection charity) is allowing trans people to groom children. They've gone completely off the deep end. 92.5.141.137 (talk) 08:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Mumsnet is a notorious TERF snake pit. Supposedly they've started to crack down on it, but clearly it isn't going very far as of yet. EVDebs (talk) 23:02, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't have a link, but I recall the founder/CEO is onside with TERFiness and defended it publicly - David Gerard (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)