User talk:79.179.0.66

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Edit-warring ain't gonna accomplish much, bro, you godda talk to people and try to convince them. A wiki is a collaborative project.--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 00:12, 1 June 2016 (UTC) 00:12, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps try explaining how the article is wrong rather than blanking it, calling the writer(s) antisemitic, and then going on to claim that they're whitewashing acts of antisemitism. Nergali (talk) 00:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
This section is quite monstrous:

"Then came the civil war in the Mandate of Palestine, culminating in the founding of Israel. This was not a good time to be an Arab; ethnic cleansings occurred, and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced[13]. Local Jews were blamed, and in retaliation riots broke out, and Jews throughout the Arab world were cleansed in response. The only Muslim communities with Jewish populations of note are Turkey and Iran, though most Jews left during the Iranian revolution. Whereas Israel was eager to absorb the Jews into their population, the Arab world was not so eager to do the same with the Palestinians, keeping the issue alive. Life has steadily gotten worse for most of the refugees, and since violence breeds more violence, well, today Jews do not win any popularity contests in the Arab world. And as long as the issue remains open, with Palestinians stuck in camps for decades and the Israelis and Palestinians unable (or unwilling) to settle it peacefully, it's unlikely to get better."

1) The description of Israel's war of independence is tendentious and clearly biased against Israel. It doesn't even mention that Israel was under threat of annihilation by Arab armies. In any case, it doesn't matter, because it's irrelevent. The Jews of the Arab world were not "cleansed in response." They were cleansed out of racism and anti-Semitism inspired by Nazi ideology. See the following: http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-expulsion-that-backfired-when-iraq-kicked-out-its-jews/. In effect, the passage blames the Jews for anti-Semitism, which is anti-Semitic in and of itself.

2) This entire page is littered with anti-Israel irrelevancies, many of the forthrightly racist. It's a disgrace.— Unsigned, by: 79.179.0.66 / talk / contribs

On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. (You can indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line.) Thank you.--JorisEnter (talk) 12:02, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Odd, You appear to have skipped the parts describing the ethnic cleansing, killing, and expulsion of Palestinians from the paragraph before that one (which you also deleted), upon which this paragraph is a continuation of and an expansion of. Now why would you go and avoid something like that and treat the page as if it's only talking about that particular passage you quoted? Nergali (talk) 12:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
It's odd that you're ignoring the fact that I did comment on them: I noted that they are a) tendentious and biased against Israel, for example, they ignore the fact that the Palestinian Arabs and their supporters had launched a genocidal war against the Palestinian Jews, b) completely irrelevant, and c) blatantly racist, as they are used to blame Jews for anti-Semitism. Hence, I deleted them. If someone wants to spew Jew-baiting hatred of Israel, they should do it on a page about the conflict. I also note that this typical of a great deal of the entire page, much of which is deeply offensive and racist toward Jews, usually for the purpose of defaming Israel, an issue which is - once again - irrelevant.79.179.0.66 (talk) 13:45, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians? Back the they weren't even Palestinians, let alone victims of ethnic cleansing. In most cases, they just fled the fighting. IP is more or less right (except that I don't agree with him calling the article or the editors of it antisemitic or racist). The left just loves to deny certain genocides or expulsions did happen, just like the right. Horseshoe theory in full effect.--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 14:23, 1 June 2016 (UTC) 14:23, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I am going off what the original article says, which provides sources for its statements. The IP did not, instead choosing to insult people and begin removing large sections of the page. He also did not mention anything from that paragraph I brought, despite what he claims now, as nowhere in his statement on this page does he bring it up and instead merely jumps to the next paragraph - which, as previously mentioned, is a continuation of the one before. Also, even if they weren't Palestinians as you claim, these people were still forcibly removed and, in some cases, outright murdered for the land they were living on. Simply being at war does not excuse this, and such an act isn't something that should be ignored unless the source for it has been disproven/shown to be fraudulent. The IP seems to believe in a black and white worldview by ignoring, or perhaps even refusing, to acknowledge the possibility that both sides have done questionable, if not outright detestable, acts. Nergali (talk) 20:57, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Why do you continue to lie about what I said? I obviously address the issue and, in any case, the most important point I am attempting to make is this: The issue you cite is not what is at stake. It is completely irrelevant to the problem of Muslim antisemitism. Clearly, you have an anti-Israel and antisemitic ax to grind. Feel free to grind it elsewhere. In any case, I erased what was clearly blatant antisemitism and victim blaming in the name of assassinating Israel's character with no relevancy to the issue dealt with by this article.79.179.0.66 (talk) 09:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Please quote where you brought up the accusations of Israel . Also, now you're accusing me of being anti-Israel/antisemitic, after I already explained my reasoning being that you've done nothing to disprove the sources on the page. Since you haven't done that, you can't demonstrate that it didn't have any effect on the issue at hand. Nergali (talk) 11:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
You are the one ignoring the issue at hand: The totally irrelevancy of the entire subject. I really don't know how many more times I have to point this out for you to get this through your head. Fine, you hate Israel. Go say so on a page that has something to do with Israel.79.179.0.66 (talk) 12:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Ok, you keep saying I hate Israel for some reason, yet you continue to fail and demonstrate how or why? Care to provide evidence to back up this claim of yours on what MY position is? Nergali (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
You continue to ignore what I wrote. The passages I cited are hateful and you are defending them. I can only presume you agree with them.79.179.0.66 (talk) 10:58, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Where exactly have I ignored what you've written when I keep questioning you on them? Also, I already explained my reasoning, which you've ignored, and for some odd reason you seem to think criticism = hatred. You do realize that's not how it works, right? Nergali (talk) 23:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Moreover, I have not insulted anyone, I have pointed out the facts. As an aside, I would note that, when it comes to antisemitism, I do have a black and white worldview. I subscribe to the radical notion that antisemitism is evil and is not the fault of the Jews themselves. You are welcome to disagree. In addition, it is the passage in question that subscribes to a black and white worldview, as it purely indicts Israel and nowhere mentions the genocidal war waged against it, which yes, I believe, justifies whatever necessary measures to defend oneself.79.179.0.66 (talk) 09:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Given that Kugelschreiber has pointed out you have, and that you've even just done so on this page... yes, yes you have insulted people. And hey, when I said a black and white worldview, which you have demonstrated, I was referring to the notion that both sides have done shit, which I made abundantly clear, and not to the notion of antisemitism. The fact that you seem to have trouble comprehending this is likely indicative of your reasoning capabilities and critical thinking, especially when it becomes abundantly clear that you're now resorting to underhanded tactics of twisting what other people say. Oh, and no, that doesn't justify it. Expulsion, ethnic cleansing, and murdering of uninvolved innocents simply because they're related to others who wish you harm should never be used as an excuse for your actions. Unless you can demonstrate, with verifiable sources, that the people expelled, ethnically cleansed, and murdered had been doing anything to Israel, and to an extant that warren's action, and wasn't simply for being related to those actually doing it, then you'd have a case. Otherwise you don't have anything. But let me guess, going by the "logic" you've demonstrated so far with this statement, you were probably supportive of Japanese internment camps in WW2, weren't you? Oh, and by the way, the page does call out the Arabs as well, pointing out how despite claiming the treatment of those Palestinians as a reason for their own detestable actions - which also involved expulsion, ethnic cleansing, and murder of innocents simply for being jewish - they were rather unwilling to help them, as opposed to Israel who did help jewish refugees and others displaced by the war. Nergali (talk) 11:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
You continue to willfully ignore the essential point: All of this is totally irrelevant.79.179.0.66 (talk) 12:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
You keep saying this but you continue to fail to demonstrate how it's irrelevant if the Arabs are using this incident as an excuse. Nergali (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
My point is that the tendentious and racist portrayal of Israel's war of independence is irrelevant. Why do you continue to ignore what I write?79.179.0.66 (talk) 10:58, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
You're point is that that part in question is too long and monotonous? That's not exactly an excuse to remove it, and as for it being racist... how so? You yourself referenced a source that agreed with what the page so far says, and even Kugelschreiber has agreed - though also bringing up that many Palestinians left voluntarily - that some locals were expelled or even outright murdered. The article of course then goes on to describe what the arabs did in return, to a much greater (aka worse, since you have trouble comprehending this) effect. Nergali (talk) 23:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
As another aside to the irrelevant issue, Israeli historian Benny Morris has conclusively proven that the majority of Arabs fled Palestine voluntarily, though he does not deny that there were expulsions. Although again, I emphasize, this issue has no place on this page.79.179.0.66 (talk) 09:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
And they fled why?... Could it be because of expulsion, ethnic cleansing, and murdered, as other sources indicate... by the way you should provide a verifiable, credible source for that. Also, if the the other side is using that as an excuse for their actions, however unjustifiable that they are in using them, it still needs to be brought up... then it can be debunked on page. Nergali (talk) 11:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
You demand verifiable sources but provide none of your own. Your knowledge of this issue is clearly limited if you have never heard of Benny Morris or don't regard him as credible. Nonetheless, you continue to dodge the essential issue: This is irrelevant to the issue of this page. If you want to bring this up, do so on a page about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Exactly why do you have a problem with that?79.179.0.66 (talk) 12:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I referenced the sources in the article... what exactly did you think I was talking about this whole time? And when exactly did I question Benny Morris, or dodge the issue? So far you've only been claiming things are irrelevant then insulting people for not agreeing with you 100%. That's not exactly how you do a debate on a sensitive subject such as this. Nergali (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
You demanded sources when I already cited Morris, who is unquestionably respected and credible. There is only one source cited, which is a book review, not a work of history. The book in question was written by an Israeli journalist, not a historian. I don't insult people, I condemn those who condone antisemitism.79.179.0.66 (talk) 11:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Bringing up a name isn't a source, you need to actually link to a document of his or something similar where you can quote him saying as such, therefore allowing others to validate his statements. Also... are you calling the Israeli journalist, who cites his sources and such, an anti-Semite? And yes, you do insult people, and I'm not the only one to have pointed that little tidbit out. Sure you can deny it all you like, but it doesn't change reality. Nergali (talk) 23:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Well, 79.179.0.66, you aren't blocked anymore, so how about you go to the talk pages of e.g. the Antisemitism, Israel, Palestine or other articles and try to talk with people there?--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 12:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC) 12:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
He's right, you were only blocked from editing pages for 9 hours. You're free to go back to talking on other pages now. Nergali (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, a few were expelled (mostly to get them out of the way of the newly created IDF fighting a war) and some where murdered (mostly by the units formed from the more militant Jewish underground organizations Irgun and Lehi), but most fled as civilians normally do in war (or were told by their Arab leaders to just step aside for a few days and come back, after they've driven the Jews into the sea, depending on whom you ask). Now all that wouldn't be much of an issue after a few decades if the Arab states wouldn't keep the fire under this conflict lit (see how the Palestinians are treated in Arab countries and they do nothing to integrate them into their societies, despite the refugees being Arabs like them?) and if the UN hadn't granted them something they didn't to any other group of refuges I know of: An inheritable refugee status. Normally, only people, who actually flee from somewhere are called refugees, but in this case, even children, grandchildren and so on are called refugees. They are the only population of refugees getting bigger over time instead of the opposite.--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 12:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC) 12:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
See 79.179.0.66, this is how you debate. Kugelschreiber made his point - and did it very well at that - without resorting to insulting other people or vandalizing pages, and because of that, I find myself agreeing with his points. Now if he were to edit the page now with this information, I would see no problem with that, and would in fact encourage him to do so now. Nergali (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I would encourage him not to because it is, yet again, irrelevant to this page and ought to be simply erased. The issue here is Muslim antisemitism and the fact that it ultimately resulted in ethnic cleansing on a mass scale (almost a million people). That alone should be the issue addressed. Issues of the conflict should be dealt with on pages where they are relevant. Exactly what is the problem with that?79.179.0.66 (talk) 10:58, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
That of course, is true, the article is trivializing the "Jewish Nakba" and is making Israel responsible, but believe me or not (God Flying Spaghetti Monster article history is my witness), this article was used by certain users to smear Israel even more, but more reasonable editors, IIRC, edited the article to let it smear Israel a little less. The political position of this wiki is to the left and you know, how they love to smear Israel and go to bed with PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and all that scum. So sign up for an account, go to the article pages and engage the people in discussion. You got to talk smooth and bring sources to have your version of the article be accepted by the mob (a humorous name for the regular editor base of the RationalWiki). So, see you later, akhi (Hebrew word for brother).--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 15:58, 3 June 2016 (UTC) 15:58, 3 June 2016 (UTC)



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