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from Nutty Roux (Talk), group Site wide (urgent) at 21:22, 27 February 2015

RationalWiki:Chicken coop

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The chicken coop is for the avoidance, containment and resolution of cases of Headless Chicken Mode (HCM). Despite the name, this tends to be serious business.

This page can be used for reporting cases of administrative abuse (abuse of sysop or moderator abilities such as blocking, page deletion, or user rights management), general abuse (such as trolling, wandalism, and personal attacks), and conflicts which cannot be solved through normal talk page discussion (such as longstanding edit wars or article content disputes). Please be specific and include links to any relevant discussions, page edits or logs.

Please try to resolve conflicts with other editors directly through discussion on their user talk page before reporting them at the chicken coop. If you do report an editor's behaviour here, please leave a message on their talk page to alert them to this, so that they have a chance to discuss their actions here.

All editors are welcome to comment on the cases raised here, and to try to reach a consensus on any action to be taken. If no consensus can be reached, and the HCM seems to be escalating, moderators are expected to take some action. However, any serious or permanent solution, such as removal of rights or lengthy ban, requires a community vote here according to the guidelines laid out in our Community Standards.


[edit] Sterile continues to delete a page in my usespace

I would like to recreate John Duffield. To that end, I created an alternate version of the John Duffield article. Originally, I recreated the article; I realize that this was not the correct action and apologize. I then created an AFD page; I realize that this was not the correct action and apologize. I then created a post discussing recreation on Talk:John Duffield, which appears to be the correct action.

All of this would be unimportant, if Sterile did not repeatedly delete User:FuzzyCatPotato/John Duffield, on which I was attempting to change the article to make it acceptable for recreation. I believe that this is against current site policy:

  • RW:CS#User_pages states: "An editor's user page, and other pages in their user space, is their personal space and they are free to do with it what they want (with common-sense-exceptions, such as patently offensive material, copyright violations or spam)." I do not believe that User:FuzzyCatPotato/John Duffield is "patently offensive material, copyright violations or spam", though I may be incorrect.
  • RW:NEW#What_can_I_do_with_my_user_page.3F states: "You can put whatever you like on your user page. (With some obvious restrictions like obscenity, slander or racism.) Only you can edit your user page - unless you are arbitrarily convicted of vandalism in which case you will be put in the vandal category and your user page may be edited accordingly." I do not believe that User:FuzzyCatPotato/John Duffield contains "obscenity, slander or racism", though I may be incorrect.

So my question is: Can Sterile delete User:FuzzyCatPotato/John Duffield, if I choose to recreate it?

I bring this up at the coop only because Sterile stated, "Please do not respond, as I tire of you lawyering."

I apologize for the drama, wasted time, and wikilawyering. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 00:36, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The guy has posted here claiming libel. I say leave it alone, or put up a bond to cover all related legal fees and/or damages from any libel lawsuits incurred because of your article. Better yet, leave it alone. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 00:45, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
[1] Nutty Roux (talk) 01:00, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
This is unrelated, but it's something that RationalWiki doesn't have an official position on. If every statement in "my" article is cited, then is it libel, and are we at any threat of a libel suit? Is any threat of libel enough to prevent an article from existing? If any threat of libel is enough to prevent an article from existing, what should be done with stuff like NaturalNews or similar articles? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 01:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Generally people have control over pages in their user space, but there are common sense exceptions & posting libel is obviously one of them. Fighting hard to restore something that nobody else seems to want & other people have cited as a possible legal problem doesn't seem like a sensible course of action. ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 01:43, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
"are we at any threat of a libel suit?" The threat of a libel suit is not based on the content of the pages you create. The threat of a libel suit is in the person who launches such a suit. Remember, even if all the T's are crossed and all the I's are dotted, just getting to the part where a judge sees that and dismisses the suit is an expensive process. Even a frivolous suit will cost the actual people who are responsible for this place time and money. So why not just let this go. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 01:47, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Nobody seems to want: Dunno, Castaigne seems supportive and the discussion isn't finished, so more might support.
Libel: What's libelous about it? Nobody's said anything specific.
If the threat is in the person, I again ask: "If any threat of libel is enough to prevent an article from existing, what should be done with stuff like NaturalNews [whose author has raised legal threats against detractors] or similar articles?" Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 02:10, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
If you think there are problems with that article, raise them on its talk page. WěǎšěǐǒǐďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 02:18, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't. I'm asking what the difference is between the Natural News article and John Duffield article. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 03:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

You don't own the article. It's licensed by CC by SA, meaning it belongs to all the editors who worked on it, not just you, although you did not cite it when you copied it. Further you continue to go against all the other editors who unanimously voted against you and thumb them in your attempts to reverse that decision by recreating it and, by your own admission, continue to wiki lawyer, which you most certainly are not sorry about and then try to slime my name by taking it to the coop rather than discussing the content of the article, You mock an editor who is threatening to sue us in the article. Who's really the problem here? You are not the victim you pretend to be. Sterile (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not "my" article. Have I said so? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 14:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
You've taken an article that people in the community worked on and then decided should be deleted and moved it to your user space with no history of the article or talk page and then claim it is untouchable. If that's not a claim of ownership, I don't know what else is. Sterile (talk) 14:14, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
How could and why should I have moved the history? I've never claimed the article is untouchable, only that it'd be nice if it wasn't deleted. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 14:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I again apologize for recreating the article. Afterward, I opened discussion on the article's talkpage to reform the proposed article so that it would pass muster.
If the proposed article is libelous or mocking, please quote it and I'll resolve it.
If I've "slimed" your name, I apologize. (You doubt sincerity. I can't fix that.) You explicitly said not to reply, but continued to delete the proposed article. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 03:51, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
You are not addressing the points about community consensus. You have, in fact, systematically stepped around them. The vote was to delete the article. Why are you so disrespectful? Sterile (talk) 03:56, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I've been pretty explicit in trying to get community consensus about an article which I feel is substantially different from what was originally discussed. First, I attempted to determine consensus on the AFD page; after that was rejected, I attempted to get consensus on the article's talkpage. Is this "sidestepping"? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 04:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Remember when I suggested you make some changes to stop pissing people off, and instead of doing so, you kept doing the things that kept pissing people off? Yeah, that. Sterile is correct and sensible for continuing to delete the page, and you really need to stop with this. The community voted to delete the article. It should remain deleted. The end. - Grant (talk) 04:39, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Two things:
  1. This "the article was voted to be deleted so it can never exist again" stuff some people are saying seems pretty silly.
  2. The near-inviolability of userspace is a social convention that the powers that be are free to acknowledge or ignore. In this case, they've chosen the latter citing concerns for a libel suit. (Not unreasonable since the proposed article mentions threatening libel suits is kinda this guy's schtick.)
Fuzzy, I'd let this rest until John Duffield becomes notable enough to risk being sued by or you can somehow come up with solid evidence that he'll never follow up on his threats. (Neither is a likely scenario in the foreseeable future.)
*whooshes off again* (talk) 05:56, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Nobody's saying point #1. The article was deleted and FCP immediately copied it into userspace. Now that some minor alterations have been made (none of which adequately address the reasons it was deleted in the first place), he's trying to push it to mainspace again. - Grant (talk) 07:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Robert's Rules of Order, admittedly not used here, would say a decision made by the community can only be reversed in a certain amount of time if 2/3 of the group votes to reconsider and the motion has to be made by someone who voted against the measure. You are asking us to reconsider something that has little change by one person who was invested enough in the article to be the only person to vote for keeping it again, why are you so disrespectful of this community? Basically you think the rules shouldn't apply to you any you can lawyer out of this vote. Sterile (talk) 07:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC).

Looking through the talkpage] of the John Duffield article, there is little that was done, other than dick-waving, to refute, even, the claims he was making about physics, let alone his claims of having been wronged by the tone of the article. This makes me very uneasy, because if it was that hard for editors here to make the case, to the man himself, about why he's a crank, then I dread what we could do if he actually sued us. I've not seen (nor do I care to see) what changes to the original article FCP had in mind. FCP (and a few others) did a great job on the aforementioned talkpage of baiting this guy to get even madder and, thus, throwing out the legal threats. Totally irresponsible, and an article written by the same rabble of people about the same man, with apparently only cosmetic changes to it (whether or not it's in mainspace or userspace) makes me come down hard on the side of those who say that this is an article that's too hot for RW to handle. The deletions of the John Duffield articles in both the mainspace and userspace were exactly the right thing to do, and FCP should cease trying to convince us otherwise. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 11:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
False; a motion to reconsider requires a simple majority. Landmartian (talk) 00:22, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Multi-response

When does somebody become important enough to risk a libel suit? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 14:13, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
ALL DEFAMATORY AND LIBELOUS CONTENT MUST BECREMOVED. THERE IS NO NEGOTIATION HERE. The foundation is not taking risks on your behalf. Sterile (talk) 14:08, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree. I was responding to 141, who said "I'd let this rest until John Duffield becomes notable enough to risk being sued by". Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 14:28, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
It's subjective of course. Basically when he becomes notable enough that a clear majority of prominent contributors want an article about him? If he became as notable as, say, Richard Dawkins and he was spreading fake science theories, maybe the potential threat of a libel suit won't bother people that much? It's a hypothetical either way, and a very unlikely one at that. (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Of course, at that point we could find enough reputable sources to minimize our liability. Right now, those don't exist.--TiaC (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
If you don't think the proposed article fixes the previous one's errors, please tell me what specifically is still wrong. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 14:13, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
This comment still shows that you're fundamentally missing the point. It generally takes a lot to reverse a deletion so soon, and the community consensus is quite clearly (and has quite clearly been) against you on this, and yet you still fight. - Grant (talk) 17:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not saying that a lack of errors in the proposed article is enough to reverse a deletion. I'm asking you and people who oppose the proposed article to state specifically what is wrong with it. Very few have. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 17:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Plenty have, through this discussion and where it came up previously. You haven't adequately addressed those points, and you certainly haven't provided ample justification to reverse the deletion. - Grant (talk) 17:43, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Please show me where people have stated that something specific is wrong with the article, after which I haven't changed the article to match. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 17:50, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
At this point I almost think you're being deliberately obtuse. Your "fixes" aren't sufficient. I would recommend dropping this. - Grant (talk) 19:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
If the fixes aren't sufficient, where are the problems in the article? I'm not asking to be obtuse, I'm asking because I can't fix problems unless I know about them. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 19:42, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
You say little change has occured. I disagree. Getting commnunity consensus again is relevant, and I've explicitly sought it. If consensus is that the proposed article is the same as the old and still not worthy of creation, then I will obey that decision; if not, then I hope you will. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 14:13, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
No. We voted. It is in the past. There is no future for this version of the article. You are trying tske something that has been decided and change it, explicitly disregarding community consensus. Do you not understand what the word NO means? I'm sorry for you if no one in your life has forced you to deal with a decision that is not in your favor. Sterile (talk) 14:10, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The proposed article is fundamentally not the same as the one the community voted on. The original article was 3kb, mentioned Duffield's qualifications, stalked Farsight's activity on forums, frequently called him crazy and a crank, asserted he's unable to answer questions, asserted he spammed scientists, asserted Deepak's publisher wouldn't touch his book, asserted he supports the militia movement and NWO conspiracies, asserted that he's unhinged, cited very few non-forum sources, and didn't even describe his ideas. The proposed article is 11kb, describes Duffield's qualifications, merely states that he's active online, lists his publications, describes at least some of his ideas, describes his style of quoting physicists, describes his litigation threats, and cites his interview and directly quotes him rather than citing a forum. I think the proposed article is different enough to merit another discussion. Where's the harm in doing so? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 15:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
If you look at the proposed article, you'll see that I've removed every statement Duffield said was libel. If I "baited", I apologize; the goal was to find out and remove untrue and litigable statements, as I've done here and on the List of internet kooks. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 13:42, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
You make explicit reference to what the person of interest says in reference to this site about threats of suing.mif that's not baiting, I don't know what is. You lack judgment. Sterile (talk) 14:19, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

What would it take for you to admit defeat here, Fuzzy? It seems like everyone else is against you on this, but still you keep coming back with "yeah but—". ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 15:29, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

A consensus against recreation, after the proposed article is actually discussed. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 15:35, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I've deleted the article and taken away your sysop rights until you understand that a bunch of editors asking you not to do something means you should probably not do it. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 15:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
You know what I undeleted the page to do? To remove the "baiting" content that Sterile mentioned, after which I immediately attempted to redelete it; you got there half a second before I did. I would provide a link, but since I'm not sysop, I can't even access the deleted revision screen. Ah well. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 15:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Though by now I presume I won't be believed, and this will just be seen as trying to avoid the decision of the coop. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 16:08, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Revision histories are saved, even when an article is deleted. What does undeleting the article to remove the baiting actually accomplish? - Grant (talk) 17:43, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
If the article is that important to you, Fuzzy, you can always save the content on a Word document on your computer and edit it to your likings. (talk) 20:15, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

So, there seem to be two issues here. First, is there a possible version of this article that we would want? Second, is FCP's version it? FCP is mainly addressing the second point by saying that he will make changes until it is deemed acceptable. Many editors object to the first issue. They say there's no reason to fight over this because he's really not all that important. I'm going to say that he's not notable enough for more than a paragraph on his ideas on the appropriate page. Therefore, FCP, it does not actually matter if your proposed article is not libelous, I still feel it's not a good thing for this wiki. Also, don't move potentially libelous content to your user space after it's deleted. (I could easily see something similar to this happening with other pages that were deleted for being badly written rather than off-mission. e.g. Carly Fiorina. Perhaps some mechanism or guideline could help avoid another fight like this in the future.) --TiaC (talk) 20:29, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Going to throw one more "Don't userspacify articles deleted for legal reasons(copyright would also count)" on the pile. Does not help. For the purposes of someone googling, there's no difference between and Ikanreed (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] De-sysop AgingHippie for abusing both blocks and the dispute process

1) On March 1, I was blocked for 9 hours by AgingHippie with the reason: "Alright, it's become clear you are only here to harrass one user. Why not take a little break from that." Both of those statements are untrue. I was not "harassing" anybody, I was pointing out an issue of hypocrisy, providing facts when challenged, and protecting my comments from being reverted and then hidden with a collapse tag. I also was responding to two users in my initial comment, the first being Ryulong, the second being Castaigne. It's not my fault that Ryulong uses dirty tactics when he thinks he can get away with it, and that his defenders treat him like a special victim when they are battling against an ideological enemy. However, these very same users are in constant battle with Ryulong over his ownership of the Gamergate page, so it's clearly not just me having trouble with him.

2) On February 28, AgingHippie blocked LogicMaster777 for 9 hours with the reason: "Just because". When asked on his talk page about it , his response was "There is only decaf in the house. Beware. Peace."

3) On February 22-23, on three separate occasions AgingHippie unilaterally removed cases from the Coop lodged by LogicMaster777 on the very same day they were lodged [1][2][3]. You (and even I) may not like what he has to say, but that's no reason he shouldn't at least be given a fair hearing.

4) On February 18, AgingHippie unilaterally removed an active case involving himself from the Coop with the reason: "Blocked for alleged doxxing: Tiresome BoN who thinks RW is the place to discuss a private individual's gender identity.", when the article under question comments on that very issue, and AgingHippie also removed the Coop notice from his own Talk page with the reason: "Super uninteresting."

5) On February 4, AgingHippie unilaterally removed an active case from the Coop with the nonsensical reason "Archiving this shit. Sort it out yourselves, but take your Gamergate nonsense off of my wiki.". I say nonsensical because he has argued for having the Gamergate page on the wiki as missional and has been extensively editing it and commenting on the Talk page. When asked on AgingHippie's Talk page by Tielec01 to put it back, he completely ignored the request (link is to last version of page with a comment in that section).

I request that AgingHippie has his sysoped privs removed and that he refrains from removing any case from the Coop. Due process should be allowed and consensus achieved, and somebody else besides him should make that call.

Chrimony (talk) 13:23, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget 6) "He obsessively expounds pro-peace views in all his messages! Argh! It's so infuriating!" (talk) 13:55, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
1) As I haven't followed the Gamergate shitstorm, I'll refrain from commenting on this one.
2) As to blocking LogicMaster777, I'd say LM had it coming for a looong time having been warned several times about keeping his seemingly endless "imaginary state"-crankery off RW talk pages.
3) Similarly, LM's complaints here on the coop are (in my eyes) spurious offshoots of LM's crankery being removed or collapsed on talk pages, which LM claims is "statist/statheist censorship".
4) Gamergate again. Not. Going. To. Touch. It. With. An. Eight. Mile. Pole.
5) Yet more Gamergate, but with what seems to be an even less interesting personal squabble between RW editors as an outgrowth of the Gamergate shit-fest. Don't really care, but perhaps AgingHippie was wrong to remove it so quickly and not responding to requests for restoration.
A) I see little to no reason for AH to lose his mop over his actions against LM who has been allowed a very long leash already.
B) There may be more reason for concern over the Gamergate crap, but I'll leave evaluation of that issue to those who're actually involved or have the inclination to bite into this turd sandwich. ScepticWombat (talk) 13:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Chrimony's here for the sole purpose of trolling me because he is what we in the business like to call a Gator.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
That's a lie. I have hundreds of edits here, the majority of which do not involve you. Chrimony (talk) 19:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Wikilawyering to remove your enemies won't work here. This is not Wikipedia.--ZooGuard (talk) 13:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm not trying to "remove" anybody. I just want somebody abusing their privs to silence their enemies to have those privs taken away. Chrimony (talk) 19:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: Skimming through Chrimony's record doesn't make me more sympathetic to the request to de-mop AgingHippie. Chrimony has, as far as I can tell, done nothing outside the Gamergate talk page mêlée and associated conflicts with other RW editors to the extent that the label "Gator" does seem to fit the bill. This doesn't mean that Chrimony is necessarily wrong, but I'd say it suggests caution against humouring someone who seems to spend all their time on RW getting into scraps over effin' Gamergate. ScepticWombat (talk) 14:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

To add, I'd recommend everyone to check out Chrimony's edit log, especially all the anger he throws into every single edit summary. Guy is here to pick up fights with people. His block for harassing others was well deserved. Typhoon (talk) 15:00, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I will go along with Sceptic Wombat's fisking above, particularly with regard to LM777. (I also don't give two shits about Gamergate, and resent the amount of effort it takes to ignore it in recent changes, but that is nobody else's problem but mine.) Aging Hippie has a history of wielding his mop responsibly, keeping the trolls and performance artists down to a dull roar. About complaint #5, his action may have been peremptory, but something something c'est la pomme de terre. In my jaundiced view, the coop should not be a place for gladly hosting gator squabbles, nor for this kind of tedious tendentious wikilawyering.
Dismiss this case with prejudice, or else summon Foster the Cruel from the depths of the abyss to sort the bleaters out, say I. Alec Sanderson (talk) 15:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Apart from the rather tedious "peace" at the end of every post, I can't see that AH has done anything wrong. Scream!! (talk) 15:28, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I vote that Chrimony be fed to a pit of wild jerboas, with prejudice, for (1) having really angsty edit summaries (2) 90/10 rule. oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 18:14, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

So in summary, "Ugh, Gamergate!" You won't enforce the sites own policies or ethos for ideological reasons. All I've done is dissent on Talk pages on a controversial issue getting completely one-sided treatment, which your site policies invite people to do, and I've been no more ill-mannered than the Gamergate article itself or many of the people editing it. Chrimony (talk) 19:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Three things are suggestive in this reply:
  1. A complete lack of any realisation of the possibility that Chrimony might be in the wrong here.
  2. Playing up the persecution complex angle (rather hilarious, considering Chrimony's appeal for sanctions against AH).
  3. The use of the phrase "your site policies".
But I'll actually have to agree with the final point. Considering that Chrimony has yet to actually contribute to a single article, or even comment on anything unrelated to Gamergate, it appears that (s)he doesn't actually want to be part of RW or contribute anything substantial. Can't say I'm too distraught, though. ScepticWombat (talk) 19:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
1. I might be wrong, but you are the one who admittedly refused to do the due dilligence to determine if I was or not, because "Gamergate". You even admitted that I may not be wrong. Your sole complaint, after skimming my comment history, was that I regularly got into disputes about Gamergate. Is this a surprise considering I'm the lone voice here arguing on behalf of Gamergate?
2. Imagine that, somebody being persecuted in a one-sided manner is playing up the persecution angle on the Coop, where grievances are supposed to be heard.
3. I am in fact an atheist and a skeptic, but I have no desire to contribe to "Rational" (take a drink) Wiki outside of Gamergate when doing so would help provide a fig-leaf to the site's one-sided and agenda-driven coverage of political topics. That said, there's absolutely no reason why that should matter when I come to argue on a topic I care about that is getting railroaded. I again refer you to your site's policies, which you clearly have no interest in adhering to.
Besides that, if you would actually investigate before making pronouncements and decisions (you know, like actually read the cases that were removed from the Coop), you would know that I indirectly contributed to the Gamergate article (I was asked to propose an edit, and it found its way in, spun of course against Gamergate), and you would also know why I don't edit the article directly (my edits would just get reverted with extreme prejudice).
Chrimony (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
It's very obvious you are not here to help improve the wiki (this is your single non talk page edit [2]). A lawyery Coop complaint isn't going to go anywhere. Stop wasting people's time. --Marlow (talk) 21:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
And it's very obvious you're not replying to what I wrote, and instead rehashing what I already responded to, but this time with "evidence" of something I already acknowledged. I'll repeat myself: "That said, there's absolutely no reason why that should matter when I come to argue on a topic I care about that is getting railroaded. I again refer you to your site's policies, which you clearly have no interest in adhering to." But apparently complaining about sysop abuse and appealing to the basic policies and supposed ethos of the wiki is "lawyering". Chrimony (talk) 22:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Question from an uninteresting party: as to point 4 in the aforementioned complaint, where exactly is the subject involved in the case he allegedly removed. diff ? Thanks. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 22:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
AgingHippie blocked the IP the day before on February 17th. Notice that in referenced diff of the Coop case, the BoN specifically refers to this: "I also strongly object to revoking of my talk page access and that I was given no warning of any sort.", though he does also go on to say, "I have no desire for AgingHippie to be sanctioned in any way.". Even so, I think AgingHippie was too involved to be unilaterally removing a case from the Coop (and I was very careful to say he was only involved in the case, not that the case was against him). Chrimony (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah, Chrimony beat me to the punch ;-) What I did write was: Hi nobs. I think Chrimony refers to the conflict of interests involved in AgingHippie deleting the coop complaint from the blocked BoN when AH was also the one who blocked the BoN (for doxxing, btw). So it's not because AH was involved in the coop page discussion or in the entries on TiaC's talkpage which occasioned the block, but the fact that AH was behind the block as well as the coop delete. ScepticWombat (talk) 22:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
As for Chrimony's earlier response to yours truly:
  1. No, I didn't "admittedly refused to do the due diligence". I simply left your Gamergate-related allegations to be sorted out by others who know (more) about and/or can be bothered with the Gamergate crap in which I have little to no interest. Instead, I responded only to the LM issues which I do know about, and which made me wonder whether you bothered to check LM's record before invoking him as a supposedly fellow martyr? Have you noted that, so far, no one have agreed with you that you're being unfairly persecuted or that AH is on a blocking rampage, Chrimony? Likewise, have you noted that no one are complaining about the block on LM? Not even LM himself?
  2. Yes, everyone else who have commented are obviously persecuting you for saying that your claims of persecution and demands to de-mop AgingHippie are spurious...
  3. Good for you that you're an atheist and a sceptic. That just makes me wonder why you've decided to only immerse yourself in the Gamergate slug fest. You seem to think that everything else on RW is just an elaborate cover for nefarious politicking surrounding Gamergate and some vaguely associated "one-sided and agenda-driven coverage of political topics". I wonder if you realise what this sounds like? And again, the only one who thinks you're being railroaded so far is you.
PS. Before you go on with your allegations of underhand political motives, I'll just mention that, from the little I've seen of her, I think Sarkeesian is a pop cultural feminist crusader (crusaderess?) whose contributions to pop cultural analysis are about as profound and valuable as McDonald's contributions to gastronomy. However, (and apropos your spurious false analogy invoking Jack Thompson) Sarkeesian (et al.) has not stepped beyond trying to use anything heavier than some generalised non-specific shaming — to which a proper critical response could be: "Your analysis sucks and you shouldn't couch your politico-cultural preferences in social justice terminology based on such piss poor reasoning and argumentation" (and such responses are plentiful, btw). By contrast, the humongous MRA and similar Gator shit slinging in the Gamergate clusterfuck has been vile to an extent that anyone unfamiliar with the Interwebz could hardly imagine. Does such Gator (mis)behaviour lend strength to Sarkeesian's argument? No, but the reverse is even less true, because when did poor and/or politically biased analyses and advocacy become accepted grounds for harassment, intimidation or similar outright persecution?
Have a nice day. ScepticWombat (talk) 22:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
1. Yes, you "simply left" it up for the people I've been arguing against to decide the merits of my case, while at the same time urging a response against me because I've been here to debate Gamergate, and also having the temerity to chastise me for not acknowlding I might be wrong when you openly refuse to investigate and make informed opinions of how I'm wrong. Good job!
As for LogicMaster777, did you not notice that he was unblocked 9 minutes later (out of a 9 hour block) by Landmartian, with the reason: "If you feel like giving a gift "just because", it should be flowers or something"
2. Gee, the people I'm arguing against think my case is spurious. It's like if I got banned from Conservapedia and everybody there was against me, it's just a persecution complex! Never mind that there still has been no reason shown as to why the block was justified beyond, essentially, "He argues for Gamergate!".
3. Not a non-sequitor or a red herring. You raised the issue about me not editing "Rational" (take a drink) more widely, and I responded as to why I didn't. Also, this is a strawman: "RW is just an elaborate cover for nefarious politicking surrounding Gamergate". I never said any such thing. The political bias surrounding "Rational" (take a drink) Wiki was there long before Gamergate. Gamergate is just one of many political issues that are treated in a one-sided manner while going under the pretense of being "rational" and "skeptics".
And holy shit, for somebody who says, "Gamergate again. Not. Going. To. Touch. It. With. An. Eight. Mile. Pole. ", that's quite a rant about Gamergate, which you clearly have a strong opinion against.
Chrimony (talk) 23:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah, what fun Chrimony, but I still notice some problems:
  1. You miss the point that while the LM block was lifted, no one suggested it was a heinous act or unfair given LM's record. A record which you have so far not mentioned even once. Have you any idea why some of us were less than incensed about the block? Or wny you are apparently the only one who sees any problem with the archival of LM's coop entries? No one except you seem to be suggesting that AH's actions vis-a-vis LM wasn't either quite okay (especially the coop deletions), or, in the case of the block, was at worst a slight overreaction.
  2. So, you couldn't get your way on the seemingly endless GG thread and instead tried to drum up support for having one of those who disagreed with lose his mop? Gee, that sounds like you're really being persecuted around here... But I'm sure it's just because we're all in cahoots in railroading you, right?
  3. It is rather telling that you feel the need to beat your chest about your atheist scepticism, yet "contribute" only by commenting on GG which has pretty much zero to do with either of these topics and then you claim that this self-imposed limit is due to RW being unfairly politically biased... Oookaaay, that makes absolutely no sense. It's not like there aren't a host of pages that could use a makeover, yet you claim that this would somehow legitimise some kind of (as yet unnamed and undefined) bias on the "many political issues that are treated in a one-sided manner". How does this mysterious transmigration of legitimacy work, exactly? Also, it would be so much easier if you actually spelled out what you're referring to rather than these convoluted and cryptic allusions to bias and political issues. Could you come up with a sample of articles (say, 3 or 5, perhaps even 10) that you think are unfair, and perhaps (gasp!) suggestions for improvements, or even (and I know I'm naughty for suggesting this on a wiki) consider revising them or raise the issues on their talk pages? Instead, you're constantly making these vague allegation about RW being this opaque conspiracy-sounding enterprise that you don't want to engage with or contribute to - apart from picking fights over GG, apparently. This is hardly a very productive or constructive way to engage with RW (or spend your own time, for that matter), so I kind of wonder why you bother? Unless the whole point is to pick fights and then bitch about how unfair and biased RW and its editors are (if so, congratulations, mission accomplished).
My PS. was merely a response to your claim that this is all some sort of railroading of poor innocent you by sinister white knighting RW editors eager to trumpet Sarkeesian's brand of simplistic feminist'esque cultural analysis. I really do have very little interest in GG which seems to be one of those self-sustaining flamewars that has gone completely off the rails. From the little I've seen of it, however, it would seem that the Gator side comprise a far larger share of seriously disturbing asshattery than the Sarkeesianistas, but I'd freely admit to having a less than perfect overview of the débâcle and an even smaller inclination to start sorting through the sewage. ScepticWombat (talk) 01:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

A cursory examination of his contributions shows Chrimony to be a misogynist shitbird and talkpage troll. The elderly bong-jockey was right to block him. This Coop case is without merit and should be dismissed with extreme prejudice. --MtDNotorious Sodomite 22:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree, many of the accusations we have leveled against Chrimony could also easily be leveled against Ryulong (and I don't think Ryulong should be banned or sanctioned either). I don't know why you think he is a troll, I think he genuinely believes what he is arguing for. Forgive me for sounding like a broken record here but when a person holds a viewpoint that dissents from the majority we have to be very careful with our behaviour. It is all too easy to harass the guy that no-one likes, so we must be more vigilant when we are sanctioning unpopular editors. :Chrimony is right that we largely no longer live up to our community standards. Perhaps because the wiki has moved on from it's radical roots into a more statist mid-state, or perhaps because editors are ignorant of them. Maybe we should change them to reflect current practice.
(FYI - I think Chrimony is largely wrong in terms of the beliefs they hold, to head off the inevitable accusation of being an MRA that will come from this post). Tielec01 (talk) 03:26, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] To the mob

[edit] AgingHippie desysopped

[edit] AgingHippie given a slap on the wrist

  1. ʇυzzγɔɒтqoтɒтo (talk/stalk) 23:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  2. Landmartian (talk) 00:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  3. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 00:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC) No COI really cause he was acting in the interests of others (i.e. the alleged victim of doxxing, & the RMF) but he should have explained himself better. Doesn't even warrant a slap, but people skills come along with dealing with idiots responsibility. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 00:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  4. AgingHippie is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy! But yes, I agree with nobs (what am I saying?) that AH has now gotten a message about being a wee bit more specific when wielding the awesome powers of the mop. So, in effect what I'm saying is that this is the slap on the wrist ['wags finger at AH'], and I hope he has learned his lesson (incl. the potentially disastrous consequences of running out of coffee - decaf doesn't count). ScepticWombat (talk) 01:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
    ^This. FuzzyCatTomato (talk/stalk) 02:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  5. AH is fast becoming one of my favourite editors here, but I still can't fully condone this behaviour. Tielec01 (talk) 03:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] AgingHippie hoisted up onto the shoulders of the mob and given a victory lap

  1. (a victory lap dance would be OK too) MaillardFillmore (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  2. Scream!! (talk) 23:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  3. And Chrimony should be publicly vilified like a trollop in the stocks. --MtDNotorious Sodomite 23:43, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  4. It's utterly disingenuous for someone who has, by their own admission, no interest in improving this wiki to run around trying to desysop folks. Trolling at best. Marlow (talk) 00:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  5. Slap-on-the-wrist would be totally appropriate if anyone with genuinely honest intentions were raising this concern. That's not what's happening here. Ikanreed (talk) 00:46, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  6. Narky SawtoothNarky.png (BoN is paranoid!) 00:59, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

Consensus is 1 for desysop, 4 for slap on wrist, and 6 for hoising on shoulders. Punishment, enacted:


Crowd surfing.jpg

Icon beer yellow.gif Guinnesssmiley.gif Beer.gif

Be warned, AgingHippie; if you continue to act like this, further punishments of this kind will be imposed. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ﹐ Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 02:43, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] The accused explains himself

There are 5 acts of mine at play here. Here is my response to each of them:

  1. I blocked Chrimony. I did. And I am unrepentent. He is only here to hassle Ryulong, and while Ryulong is a pain-in-the-ass editor, he is OUR pain-in-the-ass editor, and I believe fiercely in loyalty and in protecting my tribe from being hassled. I don't even need to go into Chrimony's record as a "Gator" or an anti-feminist to feel okay about this one. Don't fuck with my people. Even the ones I don't like.
  2. I blocked the Logic guy, just 'cause he's an annoying shit who clogs up RC with meaningless drivel and his "essays" make us look like a bunch of fruitcakes. I shouldn't have done that, really, but, lots of you were glad to see me do it. I won't do it again, unless I do. But I probably won't.
  3. I removed Logic's Coop case because see above and because part of me thinks that if you are not going to be an active member of the community -- even if that just means saying fun stuff in the Bar -- you have no business drawing on community resources. Basically, we're hosting the guy's blogs for free. Fuck him for thinking people should worry about his concerns.
  4. This one is serious. A BON posting, if not doxx, doxx-lite that was a connect-the-dots, circumstantial-evidence-based outing of someone. And then coops me for it? The original post was intolerable, and fuck you if you think that's debatable.
  5. Jesus Christ, look at that mess. All that was required was a heads-up to Ryulong to be careful with his blocking, maybe ask some regular users to keep an eye out for the people hassling him. Instead we get a sprawling debate going nowhere that pulled in a vile ED page attacking one of our editors. Nobody who counts was sad to see that nonsense go. Even Gerard and Weasel, two guys who usually like to see due process run its course and were involved in the debate, said nothing about its disappearance.

All I got to say on this. That and whoever called me an "old bong-jockey" made my fucking day. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 01:31, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

THANK YOU, AgingHippie, for this response. I truly mean that. It shows exactly what's going on: tribalism. As for you assertion that I'm only here to harass Ryulong, I refuted that bullshit argument in the Coop case you removed. You also confirm the same for LogicMaster777. You don't like what he has to say, so instead of following the stated policy and somewhat enforced ethos of toleration of dissenting opinions, you block. As for the "doxxing", you have yet to explain how "doxxing" can be occurring in the Talk page when the article itself covers the very same issue. Chrimony (talk) 01:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Instead of repeatedly saying on talk, "User:[Redacted] is a (fill in the blank with privacy violation)", once or twice making reference to "the subject of this article" should make the point. nobsI was in Bagdad when u wer in dadsbag. 02:04, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Hey, I banned that person, too. If we assume hypothetically that they weren't doxxing, they were told to stop. Narky SawtoothNarky.png (BoN is paranoid!) 02:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Oh do get over yourself will you Chrimony? I've already explained to you at least twice that it's not just about LM getting hosted for free without actually contributing to RW (other than, as AH pointed out, using his moronic essays to give a tarnish of utter nuttery to RW), but also about LM clogging up talk pages with his "imaginary state"-BS and then whining here on the coop about not being humoured; yet you blithely blather on about sanctions against LM being "tribalism". Seriously? What next? Are you going to join with LM and claim that this is all a nefarious "statist" plot and "statheist" censorship? Have you actually read any of LM's rants? (Choose any one of them, they're all pretty much the same) 'Cause you sure as shit haven't tried to join in the (so far) futile pedagogical effort of trying to explain to LM why his ideas are moronic crankery, why he can't just redefine concepts to fit his conclusions, and why states aren't fucking imaginary or religions! You also seem to be standing pretty alone with the rest of your interpretations, let alone the sanctions you want to slap on AH. In short: You're probably wrong, so give it a fucking rest. ScepticWombat (talk) 02:51, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
So you want me to admit I'm wrong based on everybody being against me when AgingHippie admitted he acts based on tribalism? Whether I agree with any of LogicMaster777's writings on Talk pages is irrelevant. If you guys want to change your policy and ethos, then change it. Just don't pretend anymore that dissent is welcome here, even on Talk pages. Chrimony (talk) 03:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
What "dissent"? LogicMaster777 spams talkpages with something about how statists think that United States is a physical person. That isn't opposition to RationalWiki's viewpoints, that's fucking nuts. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 03:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Dissent? Oh stick it in your arse, Chrimony. AH is a respected R'wikian and you're a tendentious bore on borrowed time. --MtDNotorious Sodomite 03:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay, Chrimony, which part of RW policy says you can clog up talk pages with your personal brand of crankery after you've already been told why you're wrong and keep doing it with impunity, not even incurring the minimum sanction of having said crank sections collapsed? And which policy says that bitching about it afterwards on the coop has to result in being humoured, rather than laughed at? Please do direct me to the relevant paragraph. Dissent is welcome, but ad nauseam arguments by assertion are not simply dissent. What next? Should we stop deleting/removing the various rants of the Cult of Satorn-variety from talk pages too because that would be stifling dissent? But yes, when everyone agrees that your case has little to no merit, it must be a sign of "tribalism", obviously... ScepticWombat (talk) 03:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
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