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[edit] black invention myth debunked says right winger

This discussion was moved here from RationalWiki talk:Saloon bar#black invention myth debunked says right winger.

Alright so i am browsing the internet looking at videos related to simone biles. I made the mistake of venturing into the jungle that is know as the youtube comment sections where i find a flame war. so here's this alt-right winger named im awesome with a pepsi as his avatar and he says

"youtube or google "Black invention myths debunked". The peanut butter one was done by a white man some 10 years prior to the black guy. Lights are definitely not a black invention."

For further context the video is in that link. you shouldn't have to scroll to far to see the wars unless your 20 years late https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqds04bRxQM

have any of you guys heard of this?— Unsigned, by: Rbaja / talk / contribs

That's actually right. George Washington Carver did not invent peanut butter, but the work he did do with peanuts was far more important.Teurastaja (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah thanks for making me search for and find the ugliest web page I've see in years: tightrope dot cc slash Black-Invention-Myths. Leuders (talk) 14:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with leuders. That website is awfully outdated by at least 25 years— Unsigned, by: Rbaja / talk / contribs

And by ugly I mean racist. Leuders (talk) 16:14, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I always saw it as a crime what we did to George Washington Carver- he had a very important impact in the post-civil war black population. I never learned about how he helped a bunch of people fight hunger and grow their communities, instead we just learned the covertly racist lesson "the best thing a black person ever invented was peanut butter" and that's not even freaking true. Hentropy (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
seems like a positive that he didnt invent peanut butter. that stuff is vile. just the smell of it turns my stomach. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:18, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Big Brother (TV show) with Trump, Putin and Kim among the contestants (who else could be included?) would be 'interesting.' 31.51.113.89 (talk) 21:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Erdogan, Kim Jong-Un, and Xi Jinping. RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] "Right side of history"

I saw this argument today somewhere for women's rights. While I have zero issues with advocating for women's rights, telling a person to support women's rights so they can be on the "right side of history" is just a bad argument. Better arguments can be made; like don't be a fucking asshole for example. The aforementioned argument speculative of what future views in a society will be and what the current issue will be seen as in the future. Is this topic worthy of an article?—127.0.0.1 (talk) 03:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I think we could extend it to overall idea of a myth of progress, a very common ideology is some form or another that says civilization is always 'going forward' and can never 'go backwards.' Lord Aeonian (talk) 04:08, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
A bad argument to rationalists and wonks who want debate the substantive issues all night long, for sure. I wouldn't suggest arguing like that on the internet. But it can be an effective argument for some audiences- the people who opposed women's rights and civil rights in the 60s look like villains today, and no one wants to be that person. One of the mistakes a lot of activists make is not effectively "reading the room" and trying to tailor different arguments to different audiences. The history argument should never under any circumstances be the only argument made, though. Hentropy (talk) 04:18, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The "reading the room to adjust the argument" is spot on, and incidentally Katharine Hayhoe mentioned that in her New Yorker radio interview:[1] start by getting people to agree with you, after that you can add challenging ideas. Bongolian (talk) 08:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
This probably could be profitably added to our article on progress. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 16:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Can Marine Le Pen break the glass ceiling? nobs 22:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
She'll break a lot of shit when she starts WWIII for realz this time. Hentropy (talk) 00:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Isn't it France's turn to start the next world war? Germany's had the last two. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 02:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe her, May, and Putin can form the New Entente and Merkel can put on one of those pointy helmets, contemplating what to do when Hungary invades Serbia for no reason. WWI doesn't get enough attention, is my point. Hentropy (talk) 04:43, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I think its about time the US is in at the start of a world war instead of joining in at half time. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Le Pen has her secret army of women standing up for wom3n's rights. It's about time. We need more Rosa ParksWikipedia's W.svg standing up against shariah. What's next? Terror attacks on polling places? nobs 00:10, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Same problem with Pascal's wager It doesn't matter the cause if your justification is bullshit. But if I wanted to tear feminism down I'd have a harder time because God is hard to prove and seems to have no real effect. At least feminism stands for something that could work. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 06:56, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Feminism is like Islam; (a) nobody knows what it is, and (b) you got moderate believers and hardcore assholes. nobs 07:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Not a great job. But Feminism is not like Islam, because one is a radical response to societal injustice and the other justifies itself with a magic wizard. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 07:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Islam was founded as a response to social injustice (JahiliyyahWikipedia's W.svg. Infanticide, for example, was rampant. Islam was meant to civilize the ignorant who practiced social injustice, same as it does today). What, you think this generation is something special? that the human race had to wait twenty centuries after Christ to invent or discover social injustice? nobs 08:10, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I guess not, but you're hardly defending anything. Yes, social justice is a consistently current thing, co-opted by groups. That doesn't make it wrong, especially shows it ain't right, and it categorically cannot make current social morality movements a religion, except they should be and they should respect each other because people. Wait, I meant to say is nobs a liberal? Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
At somepoint in recent years - I don't know when it was (probably before Obama, maybe) we crossed the Rubicon. Old notions, still taught in text books and widely held as liberal and conservative have fallen away. And what's emerging bares scant resemblance to either. Yes, there are deep down basic precepts in each, but they are easily forgotten or compromised in a world that's changing too fast for people to keep up with.
Take User:Conservative, for instance. He's stuck on a 1970s sermon by Jerry Falwell that secularization is the big enemy, hence 'desecularization' means Christian revival. The hell it does. Preaching the gospel means Christian revival, which he conveniently ignores, while he races down the road to praying to Mecca five times a day and worshipping a rock. And it's not like the bible he touts dorsn't warn him of this.
Or look at the anti-nationalists who accuse Trump of Treason. Only a person who believes in national borders would call somebody else a traitor. Hypocricy? No. This is the only criticism leveled at Trump with chance to stick. And they are committed and really believe it.
We're going thru a mass confusion stage, but what emerges at the other end won't bare any resemblance to the things we've known. nobs 10:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Welcome to every other point in the history of anything. I think that was your point?
My points are somehow now 1) Feminism bares no resemblance to Islam, 2) Trump is a national disgrace who is breaking the law and ignoring the terms and conditions of holding the highest executive office in the US, both implied and explicit (tax returns to running international business).
It's not an age of confusion about the facts, because we have them. And we can verify them even if some people choose not to. If it's an age of confusion, it's because we're confused what to do with people like Trump. I like you but how far off the rails are we and to what end? Gaul Dernitt (talk) 17:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Feminism is a cult phase that can't possibly survive two decades of Islamic dominance.
There is no compulsion to share one's tax information. That violates all the sacred privacy rights Americans hold dear. nobs 19:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Nobs, your first point was feminism is similar to Islam, then you went on saying that apparently social justice was not a thing of this generation. But somehow recently they succeeded more. The point is that Islam was meant to address a supposed injustice tracing back to Abraham and a disowned son, feminism about concrete inequality. I also have qualms about the extremist sjw degeneration, of course, because of their rigidity and the embarrassing strawman they serve to reactionaries. I'm curious about your other point, about what's coming on, as you say it bears little resemblance to liberal and conservative cathegories. I'd say though there is a quite strong reactionary component though, somehow revalued, because they think the Islam radicalization is an effect of the liberal society, but Islam is also feared because of being a sexist, non secularized political religion, which also Christianity used to be. Islam immigrants though used to be more light in their faith and more secularized. Imho the sjw degeneration is an effect of the path chosen by the political left, when it has been coopted by the establishment, which always was at its vertices to an extend. Such degeneration has watered down the economical and exploitative aspect of society, focusing on welfare and the (rightly due, though) civil rights. They also romanticized the immigration, doing little to address the exploitative component of using the to devalue the workforce. Because yes melting pot is a nice concept but not without a project, a sense of unity for a resistance against exploitation. Then the geopolitical aspects of aggression, war, destablization of middle east, further fed the anti western sentiment.--78.15.232.220 ([User talk:78.15.232.220|talk]]) 16:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Look at Macron, for example, from "a fringe left" party in France, where the center supposedly has collapsed. He's running on cutting the corporate tax rate and reducing public sector jobs. That sounds like Trump or Reagan that French socialists are voting for. Then in the US, you have extreme Tea Partiers voting to protect Obamacare and rejecting Trumpism.
Politically speaking, these are not a reversal of roles, these are new crossover coalitions being formed. But underneath it all, there are ideological shifts, 'cause frankly, nobody believes or adheres to the old ideologies anymore. The brlief systems have either been discredited or proven ineffective.
I spent much of today listening to a Jewish lawyer defending the Daily Stormer on free speech grounds in a lawsuit brought by the SPLC. To sum it up, Daily Stormer did exactly what others groups have done to Milo Yankovich, Ann Coulter, David Horowitz, Bill O'Reiily and a host of others.
As these ideological shifts are crystallizing (which can happen overnight or over decades), some people may want to define themselves by their percieved enemies. IMO, this not only is a weak basis for a new ideology, it can overlook the fact everyone's belief system is in flux. These are the people and groups most prone to violence out of anger cause their world is turned upside down.
So how do you soothe the anxieties of people who feel left behind economically or as the result of an election? By stoking their fears and prejudices? nobs 00:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
You don't. Or rather, nobody does. Or we elect a demagogue. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 07:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Macron fringe left? He is considered a "center" independent, secular and liberal, he has some area of public spending if I got it right. Melenchon is considered like this, probably being just social democrat :). For your examples I think about confusion and disorientation, but it's true. As the traditional parties "betray". The recurring appeal to free speech is some times paradoxical, from people not granting the right to exist of some people ^_^. Especially if it comes in the form of complaint, I mean, I suppose people can advocate killing blacks, etc. but it's not paradoxical, they would grant them free speech when they are killing them. It's an example. Yeah, also Yiannopoulos advocating the worst homophobes against the threat of Islam, I suppose. But I call it confusion if one person criticizes, rightly, Islam for being regressive and reactionary, holding to old prescriptive gender roles and the votes regressive and reactionaries, because liberalism is somehow at fault. But same goes I learned, for the left, I'm Italian and the same people, who, like me, adversed Berlusconi and his power abuses, cutting the art.18 of workers statute (on firing without just cause), demonstration all around. The Renzi came, nominally "left", he approved the Jobs act, no nig national demonstration or strikes. So I guess most of them were just "faction driven".--78.15.232.220 (talk) 20:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Thankn you for your outside insight (that's a little oxymoronic phrase that I thought I'd lodge in place of an emojii) It's always a tough sell when tasked with a counterargument. Even tougher when your practical representatives live on couunterarguments. Yiannopolous had to make enemies. That was his character's point. He was also sad scum, never gave a thought to the counterargument itself, but faction drive deserves consideration because of its potential power. Because factions sometimes want a shift more than they want centrism, but rarely have comprehensive plans. Still, I think we should progress, and I can't blame progressive Trump voters for voting, but I can blame them for not using Google to even it's least extent. Being said, I'm right there with everybody on the wrong side, because history means all of us, so if anybody has any bright ideas...Gaul Dernitt (talk) 07:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
A problem today is too many groups like Antifa, the Salafis, and few right-wing groups hold as a basic premise that unless you think like me or agree with me, you must be an infidel fascist commie worthy of death. This sort of thinking is the cornerstone of totalitarianism. nobs 02:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, yeah. But I thought you were the totalianist? Is that a word, why isn't anybody fighting my fights for me? Jokes aside, the left is almost as dumb as the right anymore, sure, but Gamergate died because it made no sense. The point that anybody cared about a video game developer's fidelity and then gaming 'journalism' accounting for more than pointless hype, the people who criticize that live outside of it, man. You mean to say Nintendo Power was honest, and I'm responsible for disliking any game that got a good review? Gamergate was defeated because it was an overreaction to nothing. Antifa is fun for angry kids. I'd have done it. Salafis, okay, I'm lost on that. I'll try and figure it out, but that's because of you, nobs, not the argument itself.

Never considered it, don't even know what you mean, really. But the problem of groupthink won't get solved very quickly, it will only get solved thoroughly. Which is an oxymoronic plan. Crap. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 06:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Results from the Limerick Contest

First, I want to thank everyone who participated. When I started it a month ago, I had no idea that people would actually want to participate. It's nice to see that so many had the St. Patrick's Day Spirit, even in April.

Second, time to announce the winner(s). In first place, with twenty-two votes, is our great and powerful protector, the Goat! Give it up for the Goat, everyone! Quickly, before He turns His wrath upon the site!

In second place, with sixteen votes, is everyone. Yes, if you participated at all, you won second place! Because it turns out, having fun is all that matters! Well, that and not pissing off the Goat...or Trent...

In third place, with twelve votes, is User:Reverend Black Percy!

Honorable mentions are: User:David Gerard, User:RobSmith, User:Smerdis of Tlön, User:DiamondDisc1, and Donald Trump ('cause fuck it, why not?).

Once again, thanks to everyone who participated! RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So does that mean RBP is locked out of 2nd place? What about the honorable mentions? Narky SawtoothNarky.png (Nyarnyar~) 07:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, in terms of set theory, I'm already included in "everyone who participated". Th hug.gif I also think nobs deserves a little credit for his Bannon limerick. Regardless, props to everyone who gave limerick writing a go! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
It had a good outcome. Everyone who had an idea spent breath, who would honestly be against that? Murmers and mumblings aside, I had a great time with the content. What fun Gaul Dernitt (talk) 05:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I didn't get first place? This contest is rigged!-Donald Trump 06:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I think a link to the Limerick Generator should be added somewhere on mainspace.--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 03:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Jon Rappoport

Meet Jon Rappoport. A blog post from his blog, http://nomorefakenews.com/, was used on InfoWars. Here's a YouTube video on his YouTube channel of him to see what he's like:

Yes, this is his official channel, it was linked on his website. I double checked.

127.0.0.1 (talk) 16:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

He's got some anti-vaxxer & illuminati stuff in his newsletters. nobs 17:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I am not familiar with this person. I don't even know what level of irony this video is supposed to be operating on. I am so confused. Samstr (talk) 00:13, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
And things are made stranger still by nobs' apparent admission to reading Rappoport's newsletter. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Rappoport has two other videos of him in the bathtub with his rubber duckies. According to nworeporter.com, "Innovative reporter Jon Rappoport fuses immersion journalism with bathtub humor in a sudsy new genre known as bathtub journalism."
here's a tweet:
Explosive details on the #Zika vaccine. Watch out---it will alter your DNA... http://bit.ly/2mzhmIl #RFKjr #Vaxxed
—@jonrappoport
127.0.0.1 (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
This is probably not the time for me to be honest about how much time I actually spend editing RW from my smartphone... while in the tub. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
This article first got my attention, cause in reading it, probably more than 50% of it both pro-Trumpers and anti-Trumpers could agree with it. Then a week later I get this one. I'm not ready to dismiss the guy as a total nut- bag yet anymore than I would John Podesta simply cause he dines with people who drink urine. nobs 01:03, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
The thing that really confuses me is the bizarre outfit. Why is he wearing a winter cap, 3d glasses and a bright yellow raincoat? I kind of like it, but I'm still confused. Samstr (talk) 01:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Found this gem:
If I want to defend the existence of manmade global warming, I attack the PERSON who argues that warming is pseudoscience— and I ignore the CONTENT OF HIS ARGUMENT. This fallacy is called ad hominem; “toward the man.” Or I find a person making an extreme and ridiculous argument against global warming: “The sun actually exudes very little heat, so warming is impossible.” I use that person as my Straw Man. I imply he represents ALL people arguing against global warming, and I knock him down. The Straw Man fallacy. It is extremely helpful to study these fallacies and become able to spot them.
—Rappoport[1]
Yep, Rappoport studies logical fallacies, so he can use them in his own arguments.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 02:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I read his three branches of logic post and it was ... strange. From what I recall of my formal logic class, there are two main branches, inductive and deductive reasoning. (Which produce probable and certain conclusions based on premises respectively.) Samstr (talk) 15:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Just when you thought he was a lunatic, he comes out with a piece of unqualified genius like today. nobs 02:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

[edit] Stupid question

I have a somewhat naive question maybe some of our UK users can give pointers on. American press and media often use the the terms, 'British govetnment' and 'British intelligence' which to me seems archaic and outdated dating back to WWII. Most 'British' publications seem to use UK instead. Is this observation on track? If so, how does one go about rehabiliting 300 hundred million Americans and its mainstream press to the correct usage and term?

It seems using 'British' for everything relat3d to the UK, is a term tied up with ethnic identity and similiar to the old misnomer of 'Indian' for Native American (which itself is a term frought with legal ambiguities. Barack Obama, for example, is a native American). Anywho, any pointers or suggestions would be appreciated. nobs 17:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I ain't no redcoat but it's my understanding (someone can still correct me) that using "British" is fine, it refers to the island and only leaves out Northern Ireland. If you're doing a news report it's most correct to use UK but I've heard British use the term British all the time- even on Brexit which was still called Brexit despite including NI and Gibraltar. So long as you're not using "English" too much. Keep in mind that if you're in the UK and talking about UK politics, you're probably just going to say "the government" or "the upcoming elections" just as people in the US are not that specific. Hentropy (talk) 17:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Us set here. As I understand it they don't mind foreigners using "British" since they have yet to find a more elegant way to say "UK-ish." 71.188.73.196 (talk) 18:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
It's pretty much the way 'American' or 'Yankee' became the default descriptions of people from the USA, because United Statesian doesn't flow so well. My understanding is that "Britain" is the large island where England, Wales, and Scotland all are, but that "British Isles" includes Britain, Ireland, Isle of Man, Isle of Woman, and Isle of Dog, as well as all the wee ones up around Scotland. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 19:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
This explains what each term officially refers to. Christopher (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
British is fine, UK is fine. Its no different to referring to the US as America. We all know what is meant. I refer to myself as British not UKer, the same way the op refers to themselves as american and not USian. I assume they are not Canadian or Brazilian. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@christopher, your diagram is incorrect. It is not the united kingdom, it is the united kingdom of great Britain and northern Ireland. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Ain't my diagram. Christopher (talk) 20:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Close enough. Christopher (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] So, basically

Hope this helps! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:39, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

See also this image from our United Kingdom page:
British Isles Euler diagram.svg

Bongolian (talk) 21:06, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't forget the Manx, Berwick-upon-Tweeders, Rockallists, Gruanidians, and Channel Islanders. 31.51.113.89 (talk) 21:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Now I know you Brits are just making stuff up. If you're going to come up with a bunch of fantasy race names then be more whimsical in real life at least. Hentropy (talk) 22:58, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Don't forget the Manx, Berwick-upon-Tweeders, Rockallists, Gruanidians, and Channel Islanders.

Fuck 'em. Theresa May (talk) 20:59, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Isle of Man (famous for three-legged logo and tail-less cats), Berwick upon Tweed - supposedly persisted in the Crimean War until some 'municipal jolly settling the matter' in the 1960s, Rockall - occasionally visited, Gruinard Island (better known by another name), and 'subjects of the Duke of Normandy' (including the Minquiers and occasionally invaded Ecrehous Islands). 86.146.100.38 (talk) 22:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
lets not forget Pimlico is Independent Nation AMassiveGay (talk) 08:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Everythings flipped

Donald Trump is cause of the collapse of Western civilization and the anti-Trump crowd is being called upon to defend and preserve traditional values. nobs 05:13, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you believe your premise? Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:25, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm more inclined to the conclusion. Trump, Le Pen, Putin (and Hillary, too} is symptomatic of the problem, not the cause. But what comes next is something to worry about. What's equally or more worrying, is young people, whose world this is seem unconcerned about it.
I'm not a big fan of Stephen Molyneux, but today he spoke along the same lines after the Paris attacks, and I shocked myself at being rivetted to every word. Two of these alarm bells the same day, one before one after Paris, is too more than coinicidence. nobs
The only thing that is being "squandered" is the rather recent achievements of 20th century western liberals. For most of those thousands of years of European history, your average person (along with many noble people) lived short, brutish lives under cruel autocracies. In the US, our liberty was bought with the blood of our own mixed with the blood of these very same autocrats. But we were only marginally better, enslaving an entire other race for economic gain. Trying to look to the past to find liberalism and enlightenment is like looking to a wolf den for philosophy.
Economic strife mixed with civil strife is putting a strain on democracy, due to democracy's natural inability to respond to these kind of crises quickly and decisively. So just as in the 1930s, we are given a choice- so we want to be perfectly safe and economically secure, or do we want to be free? We were told the same thing by illiberals back then. "Give power to [Insert Fascist Here] and you won't have to choose, they will ensure your freedom while taking care of the 'problem'." It is a cruel deception, and one that ignores the very essence of classical liberalism, because if only some privileged classes have freedom, no one really does. If we give them the avenue to revoke freedom, it will always be revoked. Europe realized this cruel deception too late last time.
And we're quickly seeing this same issue play out now, aren't we? Luckily we have a fair number of controls in the US to keep Trump's tyrannical ambitions in check, for now. But him complaining about the judges and an entire branch of government is quite telling. He doesn't understand what a President is for, because he doesn't remember under one that was truly great and was restrained by the actual duties of the office (really, we haven't had a true President since Andrew cocklord Jackson). Le Pen is talking about stripping citizenship away from people who born in the country. So much for liberty and fraternity, eh? Sure, you may be free now, until we decide that certain people born in the country are no longer citizens. Scroll down to the comments of that Molyneux video and you get a heavy dose of where this train of thought naturally leads to- not being protected "bloodlessly and without suffering", but ultimately to people openly clamoring for autocracy and genocide because of scary brown people. This is what you REALLY get with Le Pen, Trump, et al, not some kind of bloodless rebuilding of "civilization" and peace, security, and freedom all at the same time. You may get peace and security, but only at the very high cost of your personal liberties.
What is truly disturbing to me is that people seem blind to the obvious machinations of it all. There's no reason to construct some elaborate theory about what happened here. A radical Muslim shot a police officer in the most famous part of Paris three days for an election. Is that because they loved Macron or Fillon? Maybe they want people to vote for Melenchon! No, obviously they are doing it to try and get people to vote for Le Pen, because that's exactly what they want. They want more war, more conflict, and to force the Muslims who were born and Europe to make a choice between them on Little Miss Petain. Just as "striking back" for "justice" against the terrorists after 9/11 did not change anything or make anyone more safe. As for the younger people, I guess I may fall in that category... I grew up with 9/11 burned into my psyche. I only have vague memories of a time before we started fighting terrorists, using the same tactics against the same enemies with the same results. The executives under Bush and Obama trying to consolidate more power and overstep in order to keep us "safe". Trump and Le Pen and whatever nouveau-fasciste coming down the pipeline will not reverse this trend, they will not keep me safe because the last 3 Presidents I remember were unable to keep me fully safe from harm. Because it turns out the government can't actually really do that. Is it necessary to live in a democracy? I'll let you know when I actually live in one.
That turned into an essay but it's good to get it out sometimes. Hentropy (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Well thought out response, but I have to differ on some points regarding the 1930s. No, the defeat of fascism in Europe, which France was incapable of, did not make people free. Yes, America'a war effort was billed as such, but it failed in its objectives. 350 million people found themselves enslaved after 1945 - that's what a half century Cold War was all about. So I don't see where the parallels hold up other than a rallying call to oppose Trump - albeit on flawed premises.
My arguement is the situation would not be much different with Hillary Clinton right now. Probably worse - because we'd have to endure another 8 years of an ignorant lovefest between media, Hollywood, and the White House while the whole the world and everything we treasure burns - which isn't the prime cause of our problems, but certainly made things more difficult.
Hiding from problems doesn't fix them - Reagan was accused of that. I'm grateful people are being forced to confront reality, it's an imperfect world, and there are real dangerous threats in it. And Donald Trump is not the cause of these problems. Trump, populism, nativism - love it or hate any of them - forces people to get out of their "unaware and compliant" mode and get engaged. Information and education are key. And barking after Trump serves no purpose whatsoever to confront these real problems that Trump has taken off the back burner. nobs 19:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Strangely enough, I would actually agree on pretty much all of these points. I would never suggest that simply winning WWII made everyone free. It was mostly just the prosperity gained in the US that led to a steady expansion of liberalism, and then us using that as a geopolitical strategy to oppose to Soviets. I would also agree that things wouldn't be much different under Hillary... in fact they could be worse. It's become clear to me that the only way people will sour on this form of populism or nationalism is if they jump headfirst into it, or if they're lucky, see another country dive headfirst into and see how it goes. Delaying it longer with another relic like Hillary was only going to make people more hungry.
And I don't even think Trump is that bad, I don't think he's stupid but I think it's clear he has no clear or coherent political ideology. It's rather easy to abandon principles you never really had in the first place. No deep state brainwashing or blackmailing needed. Le Pen and AfD and all these other opportunists in Europe are more troubling, these are not incoherent populists with no principles or ideologies, they are actively looking to erode the foundations of peace and cooperation in Europe that has prevented them from slipping back into their neverending, bloody pissing contests all because the last 10 years or so has kinda been shit for the economy and politics. Hentropy (talk) 06:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Don't forget Putin, tho. Even relations between Merkel & Putin (Iran, too) are not as strained as the US IC & Putin. The EU is a creation of US hegemony. We may be looking at an Right-wing Euro-slavic alliance, less all the racism it's been known for in the past, making Russia an equal partner, rather than a dominant bogeyman that was feared under the Soviet system. nobs 07:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Economic powerhouses matter. Moreso than military powers, or so India would think. So the problem has always been Globalism and the fallout of imperialism, but imperial military is not as valuable as it used to be. Hence the US, Russia, North Korea panic. North Korea shouldn't even be in the game. Hell, at this point I gotta give ISIS some credit, throwing bodies at the problem objectively doesn't work anymore, but I guess they are willing to play it to the hilt? Not a morality assessment here. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 06:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] The Problem with Anarchy

This discussion was moved to Talk:Anarchy.

[edit] Interesting thought about recycled paper

Have you ever had something made of recycled paper and wondered where it came from? Have you ever considered that new certificate or license may have at one point been a political flyer for Donald Trump, a church bulleton from a right wing church, a Jehovah's Witness flyer, a school assignment from Bob Jones University, or an advertisement for some kind of homeopathic quackery? 172.58.11.195 (talk) 03:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

So, basically the old "did you consider that the water you're drinking was once dinosaur pee" idea but with paper? Incidentally, no, I didn't. RoninMacbeth (talk) 03:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] 'Recent Changes'

Can the St George's tag be removed - as the day has been and gone?

(St George and the Dragon were running a 'leave your local village without relatives hauling you back' set up but then George fell in love with one of the intending leavers.) 31.51.114.96 (talk) 10:39, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Not everyone lives in the same time zone as you, 31.51.114.96. The Holydaze template appears on the recent changes page 12 hours before the special day starts in UTC and stays there until 12 hours after the day's finished in UTC. That's why, for a few hours yesterday the Earth Day and St. George's Day templates were both up at the same time (it was 23 April in some time zones but still 22 April in others). For the same reason, you'll see the Christmas day and Boxing Day templates appear together for a few hours. Spud (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Express.co.uk

Can we get an article written about this woo-laden 'website'? I've been reading right, and I came across an article there called 'REVEALED: This Large Hadron Collider discovery could REWRITE the laws of physics'. Like. Seriously? They didn't find that. The article doesn't even mention what the title does. All the scientists found (I'm making my inner physics lover cringe by saying all they found was..) was that they could create quark-gluon plasma by colliding protons. Hardly the 'REWRITE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!!?!?!11?!?!!!1?!1' title that I was expecting. After that, we see articles for the LHC proving ghosts exist and 'super orgasms[sic]' for women. See what I see now? We desperately need an article ripping that publication apart. Meh (You) 18:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Ooohhhh my bad my bad it's the website of the Daily Express Meh (You) 18:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Is this site for real?
Have heard the DE called 'the Daily Fascist.' 31.51.114.96 (talk) 21:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
It competes with the Daily Mail for that "honor." RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Calling Old-Timers

When did I/P start? I'm planning on adding a chronicle of it on the timeline page. RoninMacbeth (talk) 21:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

That's an old timer thing? It seems like it started after I got here. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
By my standards, yes. I got here in November, and IIRC, it was only dying out when I got here. And even now, people try to preemptively stop its revival. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I'd say "mona's regdate"(August '15), not because Mona is the only "combatant" who was obstinate and obtuse, but because they managed to take the opposite position of the other obstinate and obtuse people involved who were already here. The irony of it quickly breaking down into a "No, they started it" endless chicken coop was probably not lost on most other editors. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Ikanreed's right. The I/P crap started back in August. I don't know when it actually started precisely, but I do distinctly recall it having started after Mona's August 15 registration. I think it started with a source of her's called Electronic Intifada or something along those lines. Maybe that's how it started. Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 21:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I never once took part in the I/P shitstorm on any side, nor would I qualify as an "old timer" by any metric... Regardless, I'd wager that one of the conveniences of using Mona's regdate, rise, fall and LANCB as one of your reference points for said timeline is that unlike some users — said without fingerwagging, of course — she atleast did not register herself an army of sockpuppets, AFAIK. In other words, Mona the person and Mona the account appears to have had something like a 1:1 ratio of activity at RW — which might prove useful to any supposed chronicler, I suppose. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 09:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Attention Span Article?

Not sure if this has crossed anyone's mind...i like fish...I mean, I was just presented with the 12 second attention span argument and I did some brief googling but the whole thing seems crazy subjective. Anyone else like fish? Err...I mean, anyone given this one any thought? Gadzooks (talk) 23:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

A recent non-peer-reviewed study by Microsoft compared the attention span of a human and a goldfish, and found the two were disturbingly close. In fact, the goldfish beat us by half a second. The human span was down about four seconds from 2000, which some have said is due to technology inundating our eyes, ears, and brains. The Microsoft “study” claimed that the human attention span went from 12 seconds on average in 2000 to just 8.25 seconds in 2015. Those figures were compared to an average goldfish attention span of 9 seconds. The problem is, no definition of attention span is given, and it’s not at all clear how these numbers were developed.

Another problem is that when studies do provide a definition of attention, a different physiological dynamic arises. Attention (and its close relative, consciousness) is one of the most studied attributes of the brain today. Thousands of psychological, neurobiological and social science studies have been conducted on how we “pay attention.” And one remarkable pattern shows that most of the time, we don’t. And that’s a good thing.

Attention is actually the result of a series of reactions in the brain to sensory stimuli. First, a stimulus (say, an object picked up by the eyes) makes its way to the posterior parietal cortex of the brain, which seems to be the center of managing stimuli and attention. The brain has to disengage from whatever it’s focusing on now, move to look at the new stimuli, engage that new stimuli and raise a sense of alertness to that new stimuli.

It’s important to note that behind all this focusing of attention is another response, that of deliberately ignoring other stimuli. That’s important, because our eyes and brains (to say the least for nose, ears and skin) are receiving thousands of stimuli at any given moment. In people with severe ADHD, one can see the results form an inability to focus.

This selective attention enhances neuron firing in the frontal cortex and the superior colliculus. The temporal cortex also starts firing more neurons. And these neuronal networks are highly adaptable, as they learn to move from one type of stimulus to another.

These adaptations have been evolutionarily valuable, and they are valuable now. Whether it picks out a true threat from mere objects in one’s way, or a single Tweet from a news feed storm—the brain has been able to handle just about anything that’s thrown at it.

See my source here. I don't think our attention spans shortening is necessarily a bad thing, nor do I think that we really need an article on it (it isn't exactly missional). However, if you or others think it's a good idea, write away my friend. Meh (You) 23:40, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
This sounds like Nazi science. Dehumanizes us comparing us to fish bait. nobs 04:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Is it 'attention span' or 'how long it takes us to decide something is neither a threat nor interesting enough to pursue' (so part of a more complex process)? 86.146.100.79 (talk) 12:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Nobs, I don't think it's dehumanising to compare our attention spans to that of a goldfish. I make no claims, the article makes no claims, and the researchers make no claims that we are less human because we have a half-second less of an attention span than a goldfish. To claim that it is dehumanising is, at best, a claim that has little to no basis in reality. #Can'tComeUpWithACleverSignature 01:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
C'mon now. You ever see a goldfish build the Eifel Tower? or the International Space Station? or a cure for polio? nobs 08:09, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Nobs that's a nonsense answer haha. No one's making the claim that goldfish could build the Eiffel Tower, the ISS, or create a polio vaccine. Furthermore, the only thing that was compared was the attention spans of goldfish and mankind, not their respective capacities for rational thought, their abilities to do science, or even their capacity for thought in general. To compare goldfish and humanity in terms of achievement is to compare a fishbowl to the world. #Can'tComeUpWithACleverSignature 13:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif chill the fuck out nobs. Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 17:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Sam Harris had Charles Murray on his podcast and uh...

Well they seem to be enjoying each other's company, Sam Harris doesn't actually do much debating or calling out the problems in Murray's work. Here's the link to the podcast, in case anyone's interested. As a bonus, look at our ol' pals at reddit's reaction to it. Hollow (talk) 00:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Sam Harris has always had sympathy for some nastier libertarian ideas. He has previously admitted that he believes in human biodiversity, wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act, and has recently been a victim of alt-right rhetoric about "free speech." No wonder so many "classical liberals" like Dave Rubin worship at his altar. This is additionally concerning because these ideas are at the foundation of neoreaction (Mencius Moldbug himself said that Murray's work was central to some neoreactionary beliefs), and by supporting these ideas, Sam Harris is making his fanbase sympathetic to neoreaction. Gutza1 (talk) 12:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The human biodiversity thing should probably go in our article on him if it's true, have you got sources? Christopher (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, so this is the type of shit that concerns me about Sam Harris. The typical kneejerking against Harris is unfounded, but here's the twist — kneejerking aside, he's got a growing resumé of legit BS moves. And this is one of those things, it seems to me.
Harris is at his most reasonable when conversing strictly on topics of philosophy, AFAIK — on metaphysics, theory of mind, theology and free will. His best quotes on those topics are, I think, excellent.
But the further he strays from those topics, the shakier it all gets, it seems to me. And shit like having Murray on — allegedly without calling the guy on his bull — just comes off as a huge red flag to me. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 09:59, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Bright Ideas

Let's bleach enema everybody until autism ducks it's ugly head into whatever wormy corner it came out from.

Being American is a right, defined by ladder building or rope knitting. Knotting, by dammit cost or spell check be fuddled, ha! build some kinda wall! Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

So, basically come up with the most insane, frothing idea possible and present it here? RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:11, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Been tried. Sometimes it catches on. Sometimes it flops. nobs 04:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Still not convinced. Defeat weight gain via gluten with rice and potatoes and corn. Okay, fine, I give up. Gaul Dernitt (talk) 05:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Uh shit...Hit yourself in any random body part with something that has sharp edges. Fuck it. Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 15:16, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Sacrifice sheep to the Goat good, and then use the juices to put in school lunches in order to make children infinitely smarter. Genius! RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Get the government to fund your live-streamed sheep sacrifices to immerse the masses. Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 15:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Just the government? How about the government, the Illuminati, and the secret reptoid overlords fund the sacrifices. Stop discriminating against our shadow rulers, Zexcoiler! RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't need no steenkin' Illuminati! Fuck, let's revive the Mayans and Aztecs so they can do it. Host the event in stadiums and get Barack HUSSEIN Obama to host the spectacle! Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 16:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh, we left out the Templars and Freemasons! Silly us! Yes, the Aztecs, Maya, Templars, Masons, and the (truly insidious) RW admins will sacrifice the unsuspecting sheeple sheep to the Great Goat! As a side note, the best way to make people American is to destroy every state that isn't New England or the Pacific coast. That way, only the good parts of America are left! RoninMacbeth (talk) 23:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh no! Not again! nobs 04:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on cooperatives ?

Bernie and Corbyn (and Mélenchon also, but I'm going to pretend he never existed, as I'm starting to believe it's impossible for the left to win any election) both want to support cooperatives (for exemple, Bernie tried to pass à Bill to create an employee ownership Bank to give loans to people who want to create worker's cooperatives or workers who want to but their company). What do you guys think about it ? Diacelium (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

My version of democratic socialism is based not on government control of the economy, but on the belief that employees should have the ultimate decision making power in the company, as the current corporate structure is fundamentally authoritarian. In a cooperative, the main goal is not the enrichment of a small elite of shareholders and executives, but instead rewarding the fruits of the labor of the employees back to the employees. I also feel like it will prevent humans from becoming obsolete due to automation, as workers will not vote to replace a significant amount of themselves with robots. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support cooperatives and their expansion. 184.88.254.182 (talk) 23:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Co-ops are commie crap. When will u gīz ever learn? nobs 04:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Hate to say it but, *gulps* I kind of support nobs on this. There, I said it. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
So, in the end, Bernie is actually a commie ? After all this time spent explaining he isn't ? Diacelium (talk) 07:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I eat bait. Does that make me worse than some dumb fish? Don't know, don't care, I will fight that fish. Of course support of communes or co opts doesn't make you a communist, it makes you a pluralist. Unless you only support communes and don't need votes. But communes aren't inherently bad, even if impractical, and in the US they're generally populated by democratic self-actualizing adults. Pretty useless voting bloc, if you run the numbers Gaul Dernitt (talk) 08:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Communes are only good for transmitting STDs. nobs 00:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Im not sure what the OPs question is. Co-ops have existed for years and they are all other the place. they are neither new nor particularly radical and by all accounts rather successful. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Supporting cooperatives means supporting employee ownership of business, which is the cornerstone of many kinds of socialism. Bernie Sanders said, when he was younger, that he believes that in the long term all big companies should be owned by their workers (not the exact quote but he said something very close). If he supports cooperatives, and if he wants the state to support cooperatives it's probable that he still believes that. Diacelium (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
To make a co-op work, even just for the lifetime of its employees, requires a basic understanding of the capitalist system, which is probably the cause of most co-op failures. First and foremost, it takes money to make money. This it called capitalization. To capitalize a single job in the United States takes about, on the average, $150,000. This can come from only one of two sources: (1) borrowing or debt (what happens when one or more coop members crap out? since they have nothing invested? who is willing to step in and assume another's debt burden as well as their own? it places an added burden on everyone else) or (2) unpaid, or grossly underpaid wages until the co-op hits the break even point.
And by the nature of its very structure, in all fairness and justice, should a co-op ever survive to be profitable, a member who joined after the start up phase would owe a debt to the surviving members. So it has with it a class system or structure from its very inception. nobs
That is probably true, but don't most startup businesses fail already regardless of whether they are co-ops or not? That does not address your second point, but it is hard to accept that encouraging the creation of more co-ops would have a greater negative impact on borrowing than the encouragement of more traditional small businesses.
This does not address your second point, which I consider the more important criticism. The question then is how much stratification in power does a successful cooperative entail, and whether this is more significant than the current system. I believe as a moral axiom that power should be distributed across a society as equally as possible. This is a question of ethics more than economics or political science. That is the goal that I believe we should strive for, and in my opinion, the most important criteria for evaluating possible systems. Do cooperatives best further this goal? I honestly can't say that I know. Samstr (talk) 04:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Sidenote: Melenchon convinced a little less than 1 in 5 to vote "socialist"; Le Pen convinced a little more than 1 in 5 to vote "nationalist". Why do left-wingers always get so nihilistic when they almost succeed? FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 12:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

He arrived fourth, and I think he won't be a candidate in the next election (his party will probably have a new candidate but I don't think that it'll work). We still have the legislative elections but it doesn't look good either. We'll maybe have a big number of deputies if the Front National wins and implement integral proportional, but that's it (and I don't really want Le Pen to win). Diacelium (talk) 15:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] "Please have specific criticisms"

The consensus was to keep, with 11 votes for it and none against. Yet it doesn't appear to have been implemented, why not? I can't do it because it's a MediaWiki thing. Christopher (talk) 17:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I didn't forget about it. That would be absurd. oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 11:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I added a line:
However, openly bigoted comments will probably be removed or {{tl|collapse}}'d.
If people don't want it, I can nix it. The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 11:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] God's good ideas

As there is a list of errors made by God (I forget the exact title offhand) - perhaps an article on God's good ideas/accidental Good Things/examples of (deity pronoun)'s sense of humour. 86.146.100.79 (talk) 22:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

If we can get enough good examples, then perhaps we can create an article. Maybe like the existence of the North America nebula or God's face appearing in a bird dropping to show its sense of humor. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Well I mean, there's tons of good ideas multiple deities have tried to spread, although they aren't exactly unique ones. For example, Jesus tried to promote charity and forgiveness, although I wouldn't dare to venture far enough to claim either of those were "his" ideas... megalodon (talk) 01:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
When you get an article set up, count me in. Just give me a minute or three to think of his good ideas. #Can'tComeUpWithACleverSignature 01:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
If we go with irony we can include slavery or the weird stuff in the "other" ten commandments.--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
God created food, dope, and sex. Shouldn't that be enough? nobs 08:03, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Kiss said that God gave rock and roll to you... AcidTrial (talk) 14:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
If God created sex, why do asexuals and STIs exist? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Because they're sinners. Do the math. nobs 23:44, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Pi being exactly 3 would make math class a lot easier. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
For a list of mistakes made by God, flip open a phone book for starters. Trust me, I'm a Reverend. These things happen. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:03, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Issuepedia

Anybody come across these guys before? From their 'About' section: "Issuepedia is the encyclopedia of issues, analysis, thought, and opinion. As with Wikipedia, anyone can edit; unlike Wikipedia, we encourage opinions and rants as well as carefully considered analysis and purely factual writing." Seems to be active; is it on-mission for us? 197.89.55.35 (talk) 13:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

It isn't active at all: there's only one active editor. Does it deserve an article? Ehh, it's not super missional so I would vote no. #Can'tComeUpWithACleverSignature 15:17, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Not active, but has linked from RationalWiki in the Ferguson effect article. Wheeee! I still wouldn't link it though, not unless it's more active than this. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 18:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't link it since it isn't very active.-ⅅℐᎯℳᎾℕDⅅℐЅC1 (talk) 05:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Anyone else feel like this tweet?

This one. This one here. I've seriously had this reaction lately. And it bothers me a lot. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

no, but i am in the uk. no one gives a shit here. no one talks about religion - its considered odd if you do. its curious. Stateside, there seems so much scrutiny on the religious credentials of presidential candidate and what church they may attend. Over here, religious belief in an mp is consider not just a liability but an actual threat, thus we get tim farron being asked about the gays on a daily basis. Can you tell from this which country has a separation of state and religion, and which has an established church? AMassiveGay (talk) 16:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Ever since Romney got nominated and Trump got elected I think one can safely say the people no longer really care that much about churches... all the people who do care are Republican now and won't vote for Democrats no matter what, and even if you had a Satanist or pagan revivalist run for office, so long as they are pro-life evangelical conservatives will vote for them. Even Bernie's religion or lack thereof was never really brought up, but then again he was a COMMIE RED so that takes priority. As for the original point, it certainly does seem to be getting that way, where if I see a "proud" white-dude atheist I start thinking whether or not he's some kind of Sargon-sucking "left libertarian" who loves Trump and hates SJews. Of course, atheists have kinda always had an image problem, with quieter, reasonable atheists always trying to avoid the issue in public. I wasn't sure what you did with that issue in 2007 and I'm not sure what you do with it in 2017. Hentropy (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Atheists have the same PR problem as anarachists, that they're unprincipled, lawless, rable-rousers spitting in the eye of history, society, and everything that's good and decent. nobs 18:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Same deal with ex-conservapedia editors, really. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@hentropy - if someone is going to make their atheism a major part of their identity, it doesnt matter what their politics are they are going to be a prick. atheism is a facile thing to hang an identity on. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Um, not to go #NotAllAtheists. I see where you're coming from, because there's a lot of high-profile atheists in the public eye who are complete assholes (especially the stereotypical fedora atheist), but there are also people like David Silverman of the FFRF who aren't prickish like, say, Dawkins or Hitchens. Maybe the non-asshole atheists base themselves upon humanism or some other trait, so I'm just going out on a limb here. Ɀexcoiler Kingbolt Noooooooo! There's a roach on my Wall! 21:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
That's true for any religious or political affiliation really. But it's not just a matter of people who shout it from the rooftops and obnoxiously inject it into everything, but someone's religion is occasionally relevant and you can bring it up in good faith. It used to be that admitting you were an atheist (in the US) was something only certain "enlightened" liberals did, in some ways it's a good thing that it's spreading farther from that narrow group, but unfortunately that means that there's a large contingent of "cultural conservative" atheists who are obsessed with Islam, excuse anything bad a Christian has ever done and waving the Republican/Trump flag. Hentropy (talk) 21:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
What atheists don't see, and they are decidedly a minority the world over, is, non-atheists view them as conspiracy kooks, they way they spout off against any notion of deity, claiming the rest of the human species is brainwashed. nobs 22:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
In the case of Richard Dawkins, do you think he has become worse over time? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I recall a time when he was more respectable and seemed to be more even handed in his criticism of religion. Recently he seems to have become more overtly Islamophobic. Perhaps many of these atheists have always had these beliefs, but they feel more comfortable openly sharing them in the current political climate. Samstr (talk) 02:56, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
In Sweden, atheism is the norm (read: representative of our mainstream values and completely uncontroversial). So, no.
But we do differentiate between "atheist" and "new atheist" even here. Still, the worst association that new atheism seems to have here is that "Dawkins can be quite shrill" (which I wouldn't really agree he is).
As for me, steeped in the American context of internet culture... No, still — but I do get the tweet.
Which atheists have you been reading, Ikan? I highly recommend Aron Ra, Michael Shermer and Richard Carrier (aside from the Hitch, of course) if you don't want to go down the increasingly suspect "Harris/Dawkins"-path. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Is Godwin's Law ever invoked in a positive way?

Suppose there are some white nationalists discussing politics and one of them says, "That sounds just like something Hitler would say!" and the other says, "Yeah, you're right! So I guess that means I'm on the right track, huh?"

Or suppose they're chatting about Donald Trump's proposed Muslim ban, and one of them says, "It sounds like something Hitler would propose!" and the other says, "Yeah, I guess we should vote for Trump again in 2020, huh?"

Would that count as Godwin's Law in action? Men's Rights EXTREMIST (talk) 20:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

it isnt godwins if the hitler comparison is justified. im not convinced its entirely justified with trump. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@MRE, I suppose? Who cares what some random neo Nazi might've once said though? Christopher (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@AMassiveGay, I always thought Godwin's law only referred to the likelihood of a comparison to Hitler not whether it was valid or not. Christopher (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Godwin's law applies because it involves the bringing up of Hitler. Also, comparing Hitler to X is a terrible argument because the comparison is most likely made for the shock value. I say just analyze the person at face value and analyze what exactly is wrong with X instead of doing a shallow comparison.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 20:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree that Argumentum ad Hitlerum is almost never valid, I still don't think Godwin's law itself (As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.) Makes any claims as to the validity of a Hitler comparison. Christopher (talk) 20:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
its entirely pointless if the the comparison is valid. Such memes are pointless anyway, but that make it more so. i dont shout 'godwins' at the telly when world at war is on. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Keep in mind that "Godwin's Law" is NOT a value judgement on the validity of Nazi comparisons. Sometimes bringing up Nazis is perfectly relevant. The law, like the "law of gravity" simply describes the inevitability that many political discussions (though even the original coiner was just talking about Heinlein discussions) will eventually careen towards bringing up Nazis, for valid or (often) unvalid reasons. Pointing out Godwin's Law whenever someone brings up Nazis is like pointing out gravity whenever you drop your pen. In this sense, it cannot be "invoked" positively or negatively, it just is. Hentropy (talk) 22:25, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Isn't there a version of it that says, "The first person to bring up Hitler loses the argument"? Men's Rights EXTREMIST (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The whole Antifa movement is based on Godwin's law. It started in California with some masked "antifascists" macing a Trump rally organizer, all predicated on the notion Trump=Hitler and Trumpsters=fascists, coupled with the idea "I'm gonna hit 'em first before they start killing people." Then the Trumpsters get organised ready to respond to violence, and soon the streets of Berkley look like the streets of Berlin in 1919 or Munich in 1923.
Who's right and who's wrong? It doesn't matter when you're dead (especially if you're an atheist). As my father used to say, "If you go looking for a fight, don't be surprised if you find one." nobs 23:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Men's Rights EXTREMIST: No, and even if there were, it doesn't change the fact it's a shitty argument.—127.0.0.1 (talk) 23:17, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
That's how people chose to interpret it over time. Godwin's Law became a way for people to point out how often people jump to Nazis in the most irrelevant contexts, so people started to "invoke" it as a way to encourage people not to talk about Nazis when talking about stuff that has nothing to do with them. But in reality the Nazis (and some might say Stalin's USSR) were examples of the worst regimes in the modern history, the epitome of what not to do, which is actually quite useful when talking about politics. Cautionary tales and showing "what not to do" are very useful things whether you're talking about politics, life, chess, etc. Hentropy (talk) 23:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It needs to be used carefully and well sourced (I would suggest not using it at all to make comparisons). A young person, who never heard of Hitler & the Nazi's, could come away believing "well, Hitler must not have been that bad" once the fallacious basis of the argument is exposed. "What else did they say about Hitler and Donald Trump that was not true?" That's the impression young minds can pick up. nobs 23:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that's a good point actually, talking about issues like Nazism, slavery, colonialism, etc. in only the most simplest terms often gives people a false impression, and when they get older and find out that Hitler wasn't some cartoon character, they lose trust. Talking more broadly about the politics of dehumanization and how it has played a role in history, both far back to the present, is more important to properly connect the lesson. Hentropy (talk) 23:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Godwin's law has obvious applications: if you make a serious argument centering around the word "feminazi" or seriously have disdain for a discussion of grammar calling people "Grammar Nazis", you've probably fallen into the easy trap of viewing people who are just slightly meaner than you like as Nazis. People advocating for an authoritarian ethnostate are the one exception. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:53, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Appeals to motive on Wikipedia

I might as well post here, because if you post any kind of criticism of Wikipedia, on Wikipedia, they'll say, "Oh, what's this criticism based off of? What kind of petty dispute, in which you were probably the one in the wrong, are you passively-aggressively trying to make a point about? If you don't like how we run things on Wikipedia, the door's that way," etc., etc. You pretty much have to post outside of Wikipedia, to have any kind of reasonable discussion about it, because the regulars tend to want to circle the wagons and present a united front against any critic in their midst.

As the New Agers would say, they can't get outside of their egos. They'll greet any criticism with, "Oh, so you think you can come here and give us some brilliant insight we never thought of before? You got a lot to learn, buddy. Please read these 500 pages of policies, guidelines, and essays, so you can better understand the wisdom that we've developed since 2001, making minor tweaks once in awhile, to the point where now it's so close to perfection that it's inconceivable that any major overhaul would ever be warranted."

Any successful organization, whose founding represented a revolutionary step forward, will tend to view its policies as holy Scripture, and its culture as the best that could possibly exist. Look at America. They say, "Our Constitution is already perfect; don't fuck with it!" and "We have this great culture of guns, baseball, and apple pie that is very wholesome, nurturing, and good. If you don't like our culture, then leave."

Or it's like if you approach a creationist with some of Dawkins' arguments. They'll say, "Read The Evolution Handbook and then we'll discuss further. You'll find that a lot of your arguments have already been addressed. What, you think you're the first person to point out the genetic similarities between humans and apes? The creationist community consists of serious scholars who have studied the evidence and devoted their lives to developing a comprehensive body of work refuting all counterclaims. This is a religion that has stood the test of time and been embraced by very intelligent people around the world. You have a lot to learn."

One thing I think is a flaw in Wikipedia culture is their constant use of appeals to motive. It's even implicit in the "assume good faith" guideline that you should be thinking about other users' motives. It says, "Avoid accusing other editors of bad faith without clear evidence in the form of diffs along with the deformed, resultant edit." Why not just say, "Avoid accusing other editors of bad faith," period?

It's not always necessary in life to judge what people's motives are. In criminal court, the intent is what matters; even if you do no harm, you can be sent to jail for making an attempt, while on the other hand, if you do harm, you can escape punishment by showing your behavior was inadvertent and not negligent. In civil court, intent doesn't matter at all; if you caused harm, then you pay damages, but if you didn't cause harm, then you don't pay damages, even if your intent was bad. Whenever possible, it's good to get away from principles inspired by the highly politicized criminal justice system, and instead use principles inspired by the common law.

It very often happens on Wikipedia that someone will write an article that isn't up to standards, and they'll start attacking the contributor's motives. "You're a spammer," "You're trying to disparage the subject of the article," "You're trying to shoehorn in stuff that will further your agenda," etc. Usually the editor will respond, "No, that's not what I'm trying to do; that's not what my motive is," when really, maybe he should be saying, "Neither of us can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what my motives are or aren't, but they're irrelevant anyway; let's just discuss what the rules have to say about this kind of content."

The accuser will often try to put himself in a superior position to comment on the matter by saying, "I'm not affiliated with the article's subject, although who knows about YOU. I'm only commenting because I want to keep the encyclopedia neutral. I have a long standing in this community, which I could not have achieved if I were biased; what about YOU?"

That's like if a senior executive at Fox News were to say to an intern, "I've worked for 20 years at this company, which provides fair and balanced coverage. I could not have achieved that without actually being fair and balanced. What about YOU, newcomer? If you're going to criticize me, it means that either you have some underhanded agenda of wanting to introduce bias into the news, or you have a lot to learn."

We're at a point now where the paid editors feel they have to operate in the shadows, and where anyone with credentials feels like they have to hide those credentials, lest people accuse them of having a conflict of interest. Paid editors these days usually hire a bunch of meatpuppets in order the help them fly under the radar. Everyone prefers it this way, because it would be bad for Wikipedia's reputation to admit that a lot of articles are written by paid editors, yet those editors are responsible for quite a lot of content, so they're a necessary evil, given the declining rates of volunteer edits, and the fact that volunteers often have their own undisclosed axes to grind.

There are a lot of users with "bad" intent who nonetheless add good content, and a lot of users with "good" intent who nonetheless add bad content, so intent is kinda irrelevant. It just becomes relevant because people will shriek, "You let this person, who admits their bias, edit articles pertaining to the area that they're biased in? How is that compatible with neutrality?" So instead we have people who don't admit their bias, but still have a bias, edit those articles under the cloak of anonymity.

Yet I can't say any of this on Wikipedia, because they'll say, "Oh, you must be one of these biased users who's trying to corrupt our encyclopedia, or you wouldn't be saying this" which is yet another appeal to motive. They just can never stop with the appeals to motive, even in meta-conversations about appeals to motive. Men's Rights EXTREMIST (talk) 20:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Your username is the perfect punchline there - David Gerard (talk) 22:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Damn, who is this guy?

Did I just piss off a cheerleader's boyfriend, or did I stumble upon one of Andy's homeschoolers? If it's the former, I'm sure she's a lovely lady, no malice was intended. All I did was add some content to an aricle, with some snark, and I got hardblocked by JorisEnter. No warning or anything, just BOOM. Retired Old Guard (talk) 15:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree the block wasn't warranted. Christopher (talk) 15:26, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Regardless of if the block was warranted or not, allow me to provide you with the following protip: don't blow a gasket. These things happen. And as such — any supposed assumption of intentional malice on the part of Joris would be fallacious in and of itself. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:54, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Question about IQ

Off the back off Sam Harris's recent conversation with Charles Murray, I have to ask: people with IQ below 70 are considered intellectually disabled, right? Therefore, wouldn't that mean that the average sub-Saharan African is intellectually disabled, seeing as studies have consistently shown the mean IQ of sub-Saharan Africans to be below 70.Levi Ackerman (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

1) It looks like you're race baiting. 2) You didn't give any evidence to back up your claims other than an interview with a coauthor of the highly dubious book The Bell Curve. 3) IQ does not equal "intelligence"; it's a measure of some types of intelligence and it's biased by the culture that creates it. WP has a better article on this than we do and it discusses some of the culturally-bounded aspects of IQ.Wikipedia's W.svg Bongolian (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
1) I am not race bating. 2) The fact that the mean IQ for sub-Saharan African Blacks is 70 did not come up in that interview (between Harris and Murray), which is why, contrary to your insinuation, I didn't use it to back up my claim. 3) Evidence to back up my claim is as follows: https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf. The results of the IQ tests are not disputed. It is the arguments and the conclusions to be drawn from them that are. Are they a true marker of intelligence? Are they, as you've said culturally biased? Are they predictive of educational and professional achievements? Are they result of genes, environment, education, culture etc? These are all questions worth asking. But none of them is the question I am asking. I am asking if sub-Saharan Africans are intellectual disabled based on the result of those studies? 4) Try not to assume the very worst about people in future. For all you know, I myself am Black. Levi Ackerman (talk) 17:36, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't know if your figures are correct or not - but my understanding of IQ tests is that they measure the ability of of people to do IQ tests. So what? Well, that, to an extent makes them a test of education. For example if you are illiterate, or have poor reading skills, you are going to have some problems taking the test. If you have not been educated in some abstract concepts you are going to have problems etc. --Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
If you give more information about your premises, it's more likely to make people not assume the worst about what you're asking. Framing your proposed conclusion as "the average sub-Saharan African is intellectually disabled", is an oversimplification at best since it ignores what IQ measures, differences in malnutrition rates and education opportunities, and possible measurement biases. The Rushton & Jensen paper you cited is a good one and it does go into these issues in some detail. Bongolian (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
As others have mentioned, IQ tests are not a good way to gauge intelligence. Lord Aeonian (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Guys, guys, guys... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm about 98% certain that Levi's original point here was something along the lines of: it's the IQ test — especially when interpreted in the typical HBD sense — that's (proverbially) retarded; not huge swaths of mankind. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:00, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
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