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Why is Death not the "answer"?[edit]

A recurring theme in existential philosophy I've seen is that suicide isn't the answer to life, that it's just negating the issue instead of dealing with it. But to me it does seem like a solution and it means one doesn't have to deal with the issue anymore. Their response to the matter is rather weak to me. I think it's because death is such a taboo topic that people don't want to answer the question about what if people want to die and there isn't anything medically wrong with them?

There is a lot to say about life being worth living. But if you choose to die then you wouldn't have to worry about what to fill your life with to make it worthwhile. All that work and effort required to exist is taken away. No worries, no joy, no anger, quite literally nothing. It just seems to me that when looking at it from cold logic, it doesn't make sense to continue living. I get some people say there is stuff they want to do, but that seems to fit in with the "worrying" about what you are going to fill your life with. With death there is no need for any of that. There isn't anything you need to do or want. No body to upkeep either.

That whole "life is worth living" bit doesn't make sense anymore, in fact it doesn't seem philosophically defensible. Antinatalism may have been right about this matter. Machina (talk) 06:10, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

I dunno. Probably the same reason erasing a math problem on a chalkboard doesn't mean you've solved the problem. (talk) 09:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
life is too brief as it is and you are along time dead. Why rush it? have you considered counselling of some kind? AMassiveGay (talk) 09:54, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
There are some cases where some people may decide that suicide may be the better or best option - 'particularly unpleasant (end of life) ill health' or 'to save the lives of others' being examples. Anna Livia (talk) 10:40, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
there are many obvious cases where this would be true, but this is not the situation presented. Machina, suicide ideation is generally seen as a red flag, and taken with your other posts, please seek professional help. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:18, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Isn't that the problem though, that one cannot talk about it without thinking there is something wrong with the person. It's such a taboo subject that it's easy to label someone sick than actually think about it. So far no one has addressed the points I made.Machina (talk) 05:40, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
well, no. not really. ou've asked pretty much the same thing over and over again. we've answered over and over again. you've been unwilling to accept any answers have given. as i have mentioned before, it does not seem likely that you would want to accept any possible answer we give. you just want us to validate your own point of view. there comes a point when where your questioning ceases to to be about genuine inquiry and be a cause of concern. it seems to me to be the latter. i hope i am mistaken, if not, i urge you to please seek help. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:32, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
@AmassiveGay As someone who comes fro mthe same place as Machina: You did't answer you just wrote "life is too brief as it is and you are along time dead. Why rush it? have you considered counselling of some kind? " Thats a matter of perspective. I feel like Life is too long (dear lord another 30-50 Years of THIS Bullshit?).
Anyway @MAchina I feel ya if they'd legalize Euthanasia I'd be happy to take up on that. To answer your question: Death is inevetable. There is no inherent purpose in life (maybe the biological imperative of "make babies" :P ) and Suicide is indeed an valid logical option. However and here i join AMassiveGay: We are pre-programmed to value life and a loss of survival instinct is a distinct sign of Depression and/or Trauma. the BON formerly known as Benaresh (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Well, the BON fka Beraresh, we don't usually offer counseling services, but can recognize when someone might be in a crisis, emotionally. People sometimes "think too much" in such a way that their emotions get shunted internally and getting out of that is simple, if you know how and damned near impossible if you don't. 23:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC) C®ackeЯ

Because simply responding that life is worth living isn't answering the question so much as dodging it. Some people say life is too long and others say there is t enough time in the world. But too many are scared to talk about death as a logical option because it would upturn everything our society stands for and what life means overall. Machina (talk) 04:47, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

It may sound flippant but i get a lot of mileage out of "'I'm living in the simulation that finally proves evolution by replicating (roughly) how our designers, (stay with me...), set things up...exactly how it is in the REAL WORLD." The notion that this all is "practice" to attain heaven or nirvana or some-such is just silly. All the chaos in the world now? Yes, this is what a "glitch" would look like if you were in a "machine"; somebody'll along to reboot us anytime now. Call it "the Rapture" if you want. 06:40, 9 September 2017 (UTC) C®ackeЯ
@machina 'Because simply responding that life is worth living isn't answering the question' maybe not, but you've not really explained bwhy life isnt worth living. it strikes me that for death tlo ever be a solution, you require quite an extreme problem. if you are constant unbearable pain, then maybe. if your death means that others may live, maybe. because life is inherently meaningless. not so much. thats more a lack of imagination. death seems like an extreme option because you cant come up with your own purpose for life AMassiveGay (talk) 10:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
'It just seems to me that when looking at it from cold logic, it doesn't make sense to continue living.' i am yet to see this cold logic. the only suggestion you have is that it is too much effort. the finality of death would suggest to me its only something to considered when all other options are out. you negate the possibility of ever experiencing joy or purpose. you negate experiencing anything ever again. and for what? its 'too much effort'. i have to ask, what is going on your life that makes it 'too much effort'? suicide due to laziness seems a somewhat facile notion. make the effort. seek counselling if need be. catch a flick. read a good book. hang with friends. get laid. whatever floats your boat. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
death is an end to the cycle of boredom and the relief of boredom. It seems that life is just an endless cycle of relieving negatives. You speak of experiencing joy or purpose but those aren't reasons to stick around. After all, when you are dead you don't have to worry about joy or purpose. You don't need to concern yourself with the pursuit of either. The cold logic to me seems that without any inherent purpose to life there isn't a reason to exist. Sure we have the biological processes of evolution and such but those aren't really reasons to stick around. After all, it doesn't answer the question as to why one should continue to have the species persist, it just does. Your counter points don't answer or address the main issue. You assume life is worth sticking around and that we must do so. But we don't "have" to anything. Life is hard, and there isn't a reason tos stick around just because others are offput by the prospect of you choosing death. Death is an end to the drama and endless seeking that life is full of. It has always been an option to the problems of life but we instinctually take it off the table because the notion of it scares us. If death is a valid opinion to life and when it brings, then our society wouldn't be able to handle it. I say life is pain coming from privilege and having what most don't. If those with less feel like life isn't worth going on for, then what does it say to someone who has had everything available and would still choose the alternative? It's clear you aren't interested in a serious discussion about death, you in the same camp as the rest of the population that is scared to talk about it and consider it a "last resort". Machina (talk) 16:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
what better reason than joy is there to exist? Why do you 'need' a reason to exist? you say life is pain, coming from a world of privilege? what possible can you have that is neither physical nor insurmountable? yes i consider death a last resort. its very nature makes it so. death is not an option for the problems of life, it is a way of avoiding those problems, of not having ro deal with them. ive no time for the opinion that suicide is a cowards way out, but is it an apt one for your situation. as scared to talk about death - are we not doing that now? its not my fault that your idea of cold logic is lacking. 'someone who had everything and would still choose the alternativer' that my friend is what counselling is all about. i personally have no problem with lifes inherent meaninglessness. i am not so arrogant that it fractures my psyche to think i am neither special nor serve some great purpose. if anything it is liberating. i am master of my own destiny. nor do i fear death. it is inevitable. it is all around. i have a lover whose buried two boyfriends. my grandfather shot himself. a friend is riddled with cancer. life is brief. im not giving it it up because i'm bored or its to much effort. it'll come soon enough without having to look for it. i have a serious drug problem and ive an incurable disease. every weekend i face up to death and literally fuck him in the arse. i have no fear of death but you seem to have a fear of life. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:33, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
It's clear you don't have any comprehension of the subject and cannot have a serious discussion without defaulting to the same failed metrics everyone else uses. You are afraid to acknowledge it, that's why you suggest it being a cowards way out (but there is no reward for facing life's problems except more of the same). Suicide is one of the hardest things to do as it involves overcoming the drives that keep us alive. You are afraid that someone who doesn't have troubles seeks to die when you tell yourself that you are brave for overcoming so much, even though you aren't. No one is. The most such actions could be called is foolish. Calling suicide the coward's way out speaks to your fear and not about the subject. The whole "master of your fate" isn't true either. Only the lucky ones with money and access can say that. The majority of people are victims to circumstances out of our control. You clearly aren't arguing from logic but from emotion. The way it stands, we don't "have" to be alive so why do it? Joy isn't a reason to live, it's just a symptom of being alive. But when you're dead you need not concern yourself with it ever again, or anything else really. No matter how I try to slice it, choosing life seems irrational considering what a raw deal it is overall and how death offers a release from it all. You also barely scratch what I mean by life being meaningless, thinking I refer only to myself. All your fighting a protest ultimately amounts to the same thing as someone who killed themselves, a hole in the ground. I don't fear life, I'm just not looking forward to living the cyclical nature of it when I don't have to. Not looking forward to having to always have to do something to make it feel "worth it", if life was worth living then we wouldn't need to do anything to make it so.Machina (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
your logic seems to be all baseless assertions. you've made up your mind and rationalising to justify your assertions, to make them seem noble in your mind. its clear to me that you dont want discussion or dialogue you just want sycophantic agreement. tough. it is also clear that the reason you dont get anything from life is that you dont want to put in any effort. too bad. let me ask you this, what would be a reason to live if joy and happiness and pleasure isnt your thing? AMassiveGay (talk) 22:15, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
I have stated my logic, all you have are appeals to emotion. That is why talking to you is fruitless. I don't want this to be right, but you frankly aren't learned enough on the matter to throw any sort of wrench in it. I don't get anything from life because life gives nothing. It simply exists and multiplies without any logical reason behind it. It's cyclical only until the end of said cycle, and then another takes it's place. It seems to be existing simply to exist, and struggling when there is no need to. Why should one put effort into life? There isn't anything saying we need to do so? If life where worth living then effort would not need to be put to make it so. Joy and happiness are only a concern for the living, and the pursuit of them isn't a reason to live but one to die actually. The fact that we have to seek goodness and pleasure lest we suffer boredom. We do the things that give us joy until they no longer do, and then we seek more. It's a never ending hunger. In a sense it is the denial of the state of human nature, boredom. Without a constant stream of good times or distractions we see life for what it actually is. It's a concern that disappears with death. We struggle to survive only to do the same thing again the next day, and when survival isn't a concern we seek something to stave off boredom or to give meaning. So we craft this civilization where we believe all these things have meaning and that they matter, but they don't. We just fool ourselves and distract our minds to avoid seeing that a diamond is a rock, baseball is just a game, gold is just a metal, and that job you have doesn't really change anything. Life is just a relief of the negatives that it brings, and when you get rid of one then more come until you die (or one of the negatives gets you). TO me the phrase that "life is worth living" is terribly ignorant, just a mantra that if we repeat long enough then maybe we'll believe it. If anything, your logic is but baseless assertions.Machina (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
'If life where worth living then effort would not need to be put to make it so' this is just arse. we are not children. we do not expect things to just happen. why do you think anything of worth would or should require no effort? you say joy is a symptom? so what? its pretty good symptom. i would say its more than that. i would say thats the point. after all, why do we do anything if not for the hope that it will in some way enable us to experience joy, pleasure, love, happiness or what have you. you say this is denial of human nature. this is false. this is human nature. why is this a bad thing? yes a diamond is just a rock. yes baseball is just a game. they have no inherent worth. so what? its not the inherent worth that matters its the worth that people place on them that does. it is an artificial construct but so what? that there is no inherent worth in life? so what? it does not follow that we are better of dead. i have long since recognised the absurdity of the things of life, of its ultimate meaningless. so what? why should it have? why should that make me not want to continue? i get enough pleasure out such meaningless distractions. you say the phrase 'life is worth living' is terribly ignorant. that it is a mantra. it may well be a mantra, but it is far from ignorant. you make the effort to get what gives you joy, pleasure, love, happiness, then you make it worthwhile. you make no effort, and get nothing from life. it is your failing not life's if you do not. its not going to be handed to you to on a plate. oh, and do try to be less of a prick. your arrogance probably doesnt help. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
It's not my failing but that of life that it isn't inherently worth living and that it is rather cruel that humans have to struggle to make it so. We struggle hard to find joy and happiness only to wake up and do it all again the next day? It's simply not logical at all, it seems like an exercise in futility or just madness. We try hard each day so that we can wake up tomorrow and try hard each day. It's either stupidity or cruelty. And once again you haven't negated my point that through death we avoid having to do any of that. We don't have to worry about joy, love, pain, friendship, nothing at all. You never feel anything ever again, but all you have is the foolishness you and everyone else spouts at me instead of addressing the main points. This seems to show me that we are deluding ourselves into thinking life is great when it isn't and that death is the preferable option. It may as well be fact. With death the concerns and joys of life aren't an issue any more. One doesn't have to worry about finding joy, or hunger, or illness, or love. It seems like the antinatalists are right on this one, if given full information about what life was like we would choose not to be born. So far there hasn't been any convincing logic as to choosing life over the peace of death.Machina (talk) 04:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
this is getting awfully repetitive. it false to suggest that the search for joy and happiness is a constant struggle. i am sure for some folk it may be, but it that is far from universal, and does preclude people from being happy. it suggests a false dilemma that if you are not experiencing some kind of euphoric joy you are experincing some kind of unbearable pain or misery. this is just false. think of it more of a spectrum where you can achieve a kind of base level happiness pretty much constantly. yes some effort is required. it is far the herculean task you make it out to be. plenty will say the effort, the journey, is as good as the pay off. you say death would mean not having to worry about joy. this is true, but its a curious statement. why wouldnt you want to experience joy or happiness? why wouldnt you want to do all to keep experiencing joy and happiness? why is is it foolish to want this? perhaps this is true for you. perhaps you do not experience enough joy and happiness to make it worth while for you (and as i and have others have repeated said before, seek counselling. the comment below could help there). but lets not pretend this is the case for all. lets not pretend that everyone else is deluded and only you are the seeing some of kind universal truth. lets not pretend everyone is secretly miserable because yourself might be. its an easy thing to blame ones failings or misery on the unfairness of life or when people dont share your low opinion that they must be doing stupid or deluded, but ultimately, they are happy and you are not. it it is a trap of your own making. it makes it so much harder to experience the positives of life. if i am deluded or foolish, so be it. it seems like the logical course rather than griping and insulting all who disagree with your own subjective view. i'll ask again, because you havent answered this, what would make life worth while? what would bring you enough joy and happiness to make any effort worthwhile? you keep asking us what these would be (you ask why death is the answer, it amounts to the same thing). only you can that answer it. there are no universal truths here 12:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

I have four responses:

  1. First: If you are considering suicidal, please call 1-800-273-8255 or visit https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ -- the vast majority of suicide survivors regret attempting it. Please don't.
  2. Second: Epistemic humility: You think you know what's true, but you don't really. Your brain is limited; your experience is limited; and our knowledge (our science, our philosophy) is limited. Don't stake your entire ability to learn about and change the world -- your life -- on a belief that you don't know to be true. If there's even a chance that you're wrong, it's not worth it.
  3. Third: Moral nihilism: If nothing matters, then there's no reason to keep on living. There's also no reason to commit suicide. If nothing is meaningful, then you can impose your own meaning on the universe. And that meaning probably requires you to be alive -- present in the universe -- in order to enact it.
  4. Fourth: Moral possibilism: A la Pascal's Wager, it's possible that there's moral meaning in the universe. Unless you can positively prove that nothing is moral in the universe, there's always a chance that something is. And if morality exists (and if it involves humans), then there is purpose to life. If you are alive, there's a nonzero chance that you could discover (or help discover) the correct morality. If you are not alive, there is a zero chance that you can discover the correct morality. Think of it via Pascal's Wager: If you aren't sure which God exists, or if none exists, it doesn't make sense to end your life on the off chance you got the answer correct. Instead, it makes sense to never, ever stop reading and thinking and researching about the issue. FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 07:04, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
your replies are negated by stating that life is optional. We don't have to do any of that at all. So if it isn't mandatory then why bother? Why not just simply die and no longer be concerned or involved with any of it? No more seeking or concerns about joy. No needing to read or learn, no need to see movies, or get a job. One would not be concerned about any of that. Especially not having to deal with morality or how to live. When life is optional, why not choose death? There isn't anything that we need to live for that won't be dust at some point. When you're dead you don't have to think about the "joy and journey of life". The dead have no concern or involvement with such things. All your responses are negated by simply stating that they are optional. One can just choose death and ignore all of that. As much as I don't want to admit it, it seems like the better deal. Machina (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
While technically optional, life is bittersweet and short. Everybody is effected by other people, and someone else's suicide tends to have a negative impact on many. Try to avoid focusing on all the negatives on life. Life is short, so don't make it even shorter. Sure, all the bad times may go away, but so will all the good times that make life worth living. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 21:48, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
@Machina You can't reject logic by calling it "optional". For example, #4 can be (oversimpifiedly) expressed such:
1: Premise: Humans should always attempt to perform morality-increasing actions.
2: Conclusion (from 1): Humans should never attempt to perform non-morality-increasing actions.
3: Premise: Suicide prevents a human from performing morality-increasing actions.
4: Premise: An action that prevents a human from performing morality-increasing action is a non-morality-increasing action.
5: Conclusion (from 3,4): Suicide is a non-morality-increasing action.
6: Conclusion (from 2,5): Humans should never attempt to perform suicide.
You can deny premise 1 -- you can say that humans don't have an obligation to perform morality-increasing actions. But that is not an uncontroversial claim. Premise 1 is merely the idea that "if morality exists, you should perform moral actions". And so long as it is possible that morality exists, it is possible that this premise holds true. For you to disprove the logic, you must disprove the existence of all possibly moralities.
TLDR: Saying "optional" is a cheap way out. There are reams upon reams of philosophy articles probing this question. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 22:41, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

It might be cheap but it's something you don't have an answer for, something that philosophy tends to sufffer with. It can't deal with simple answers. Machina (talk) 14:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

You complain that respondents aren't using logic in their answers. When presented with logic, you reject it without presenting logic to that end. This is a sign of bias, not rationality. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 17:54, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
'Why not just simply die and no longer be concerned or involved with any of it? No more seeking or concerns about joy. No needing to read or learn, no need to see movies' because i want these things and the many ills of life are not yet sufficient to discount this. i am not at a point where pain and despair make suicide seem an attractive option or worth the pain it would cause those loved ones left behind. because a little effort to get the things i desire is worth that effort. you will note that while general, these are personal reasons, perhaps emotional reasons. the specifics of what these things are will vary from person to person, their own personal emotional reasons. you want to know what makes life worth living? i have repeatedly told you to look to yourself. your 'cold logic' tells you life is meaningless. i would agree. so is death. this is however, where any useful logic on the matter ends. it cannot tell us why life is worth it. it cannot tell us why death is the answer. these are personal, emotional questions with personal emotional answers. one persons answer may not be your answer but it isnt less valid than your own. sure life is optional. sure death is an option. if i stub my toe, death is an option. its an extreme option. a final one. it closes all other options. for it to be a valid option it requires an extreme and very personal problem. you say life is worth it, death is the answer. i say the opposite. both answers are valid to ourselves. they both require value judgements. both subjective views based our own life experiences, perception, emotions, our own situations. despite your insistence, there is no cold logic here. we are not machines. we are human beings. emotional creatures. any answers about the questions you are asking that discount our emotions are invalid, dare i say, not logical. we are not purchasing car insurance. the questions you are asking have deeply personal and emotional answers. my answers will differ to yours. they may take a lifetime to answer. death prevents any hope of finding an answer. at the very least, you can still enjoy the ride AMassiveGay (talk) 10:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Saturn ignition[edit]

Judging for some comments on Youtube, it seems the Jupiter ignition BS is back but this time with Saturn and Cassini, that will plunge into its atmosphere tomorrow to end her mission, instead. Panzerfaust (talk) 16:09, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Links? FuzzyCatPotato of the Black Lunchs (talk/stalk) 17:43, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
I'd have to dig in the video about Cassini's Grand Finale posted on the JPL channel. Some idiot was talking about a "Project Lucifer" (PS: Amazing the BS you can find on NASA's Youtube comments, as well as in their social network sites, with cranks and similar idiots (EDIT who, for example, cannot grasp a given video is a CGI, because there's no way to picture a lone probe more than a billion kilometers away) pretty much in numbers) Panzerfaust (talk) 20:45, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
It's totally possible, since astrophysics is obviously an evil conspiracy by the lizard people in order to propagate the NWO. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 02:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Certainly. The funny part is not only this. It's, paraphrasing Ben Kenobi, who's the more sheepish, the sheepie or the sheepie who follows them?. Panzerfaust (talk) 09:55, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
The Lucifer stuff is something Arthur C Clarke came up with while he was ruining the 2001 series by making the Monoliths into extremely stupid faulty computers. The one on Europa decided it would be a great idea to ignite Jupiter into a quasi-star called Lucifer. Spoilers: it wasn't. Nog Bogmire (talk) 15:05, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Well, 2010 was not so bad. Do not remember very much of 2061 (whatever), and 3001 had some interesting ideas. The point is, at least Clarke knew in order to make Jupiter a star you need far more than a nuclear-powered space probe. Panzerfaust (talk) 15:52, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Does empathy exist?[edit]

I personally think that what most call empathy is just your imagination and not an actual phenomenon of sharing experiences and emotions. Without an actual mind link technology, you cannot know or understand the emotions of someone else, even if they had a similar situation to you. Machina (talk) 17:50, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Empathy exists because the human mind is designed for networking in human societies. This means that we try to figure out what motivates our fellow humans, in order to enlist their help in furthering our own desires by offering them something they want in return. This means that we assume that other humans have minds like our own, and that we try to figure out what's going on in their heads. And that's what 'empathy' means. It doesn't require a psychic link. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 18:22, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
@MachinaI'm 99% sure that somewhere on this wiki we have an article called something like "nihilist retreat" or something similar that documents the idea of being able to reject any idea by falling back on the fact that there's a host of things you cannot know for certain, as a last-ditch escape hatch on protecting shitty ideas. You have done this with the feelings of others. Of course you cannot be certain, and of course you cannot experience the full scope and scale of another in perfect detail. That's, in no way, shape, or form, the same as saying you cannot experience those things. Don't be daft. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:55, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
Empathy doesn't exist if you're a sociopath.—CheeseburgerPlate (talkstalk) 22:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

That is not what empathy means. The definition goes: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. This is impossible, for the simple fact that you aren't them. You don't have their history and upbringing so you can't know what they are feeling nor can you share it. Your imagination kicks in and you end up fooling yourself into thinking you are sharing something with them. This has nothing to do with "nihilist retreat", this is simply accepting reality. I'm not saying you can't experience emotions, I'm saying that if you want to be honest and truthful, you cannot claim empathy exists. Sympathy sure, but not empathy. This has nothing to do with accuracy, but with the simple fact that YOUR AREN'T THEM. So saying you understand their feelings and share them is a lie. Well intention-ed, but a lie all the same. It is you who are daft. Smerdis that isn't what empathy is, nor does it prove the existence of it. It truly does require some psychic link.Machina (talk) 00:34, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

If you look again at any definition of empathy, you will at once realize, I hope, that the word "psychic" is not used. Here is a list of 539 synonyms for the word "empathy." It seems to me that you are operating under an entirely Platonic epistemology. Words are rough approximations meant to name objects, describe their relations to other objects, and suggest states of being. They are often not so definite as you seem to imagine.Ariel31459 (talk) 03:07, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
That thesaurus doesn't define empathy as it is used in public discourse. If your trying to change the definition in order to win then you have lost.Machina (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Are you playing a game? We have all shown how you are wrong in various ways. Does that make you feel like a loser?Ariel31459 (talk) 23:29, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Philosophically, 'empathy' relates to the concept of 'qualia'. Qualia are things like your perception of redness. Assuming baseline human vision, you can see and identify things that are red. On the other hand, you have no way of knowing whether your experience of 'redness' resembles what other people see when they see the color. Likewise, we have no direct way of experiencing anyone else's emotions. If you are going to define 'empathy' idiosyncratically that way, then no. But that redefinition is your own. Most of us are familiar enough of our own emotions like love and anger and disappointment, enough so that when other people speak of their own experiences we understand what they're talking about. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 18:54, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm not redefining it, I'm using the definition that appears in most dictionaries. You guys are the ones trying to redefine the term in order to have any chance of making sense. Nor is your follow up statement relevant at all. It's doesn't matter how familiar you are with your emotions, the fact is that you aren't with others. They can say angry but do you know how they feel? The answer is no, without any sort of psychic link we cannot honestly claim empathy. We can only imagine it, which makes it not real.Machina (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Why exactly do we need to experience the same exact emotions down to the most granular detail? Do you believe the ruler on my desk is useless because it can't accurately measure down to the nearest picometer? (talk) 14:11, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Different boat, much different boat. Machina (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Empathy is part of a concept called "theory of mind" whereby you develop the idea that other people are people like you, possessing their own minds with their own thoughts and feelings. Sure, you can't directly access these thoughts and feelings, but you can consider them to be analogs to your own, since you and they are both human and have brains that function similarly. So yes, empathy is technically a feeling that is based on a model of a person that exists in your head, but as long as that model is an accurate simulation of the real person (as in ballpark, not 1:1 exact), there is little functional difference: you are sharing a feeling that is an accurate simulation of what they are feeling. For example, if you hit your hand on something, I can have empathy because I have hit my hand on things and know what that feels like. I don't need to know your entire life's story to judge exactly how painful it might be for you, I just need to be able to roughly compare.

Something being "your imagination" does not automatically mean it is complete fiction: all planned actions are imaginary until performed, but that does not mean the planned actions of "running a bath" and "casting a magic spell" are exactly equal in terms of applicability to reality. Nog Bogmire (talk) 14:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Except it isn't a ballpark, it's a true shot in the dark. If I hit my hand, you don't have empathy. You have sympathy. I could feel no pain, but you just assume I do because you do. That's not accurate, that's just you projecting yourself into the situation. It's not empathy, it's narcissism. You cannot compare your experience to theirs unless you are them. Unless you have access to all the details (because unlike rulers, the little things ins life do have big impacts in people). It's "theory of mind" not even in the scientific sense of the word. It being your imagination makes it by definition complete fiction. Machina (talk) 15:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
My money is on mirror neurons. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
But mirror neurons aren't really capable of producing <insert idiosyncratic definition of empathy here> so IT'S NOT REAL HOW MANY TIMES MUST I TELL YOU? (talk) 20:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


Came up with a name for them: "elected" janitorial oligarchs. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 04:27, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

No. Herr FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 22:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
No. Christopher (talk) 07:18, 17 September 2017 (UTC)


Should we move the cat page to funspace? —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 14:03, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not that bad as mainspace, and the funspace link redirects there. Like the topic of the recent winner of the Ig Nobel Prize in physics ("Can a Cat Be Both a Solid and a Liquid?"),[1] it exists in two states at once. Bongolian (talk) 18:09, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
So it's sort of a non-Newtonian fluid? —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 04:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Universe's End[edit]

The following are listed from most to least optimistic:

  • Big Bounce
  • Big Freeze if random quantum tunneling/fluctuations will cause a new Big Bang around 10101056 CE
  • Big Slurp if a new Big Bang happens following the Slurp
  • Big Freeze without a new Big Bang
  • Big Crunch without Big Bounce
  • Big Slurp without a new Big Bang
  • Big Rip

So, personally I hope that the universe is in a true vacuum state and follows the Big Bounce. I also hope that eternal inflation is real. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 05:40, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately we are unlikely to find out 'personally in person.' Anna Livia (talk) 09:06, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
My choice is the second one. The fifth one could produce an inflation-like event (messing with infinities has that issue), so things would begin again, and there's no way to know what would be the result of the last one (as everything would collapse back to a singularity, maybe a Big Bounce). Not to mention: 1) the possibility of a multiverse, 2) Sure that someone has thought on a nastier end, buried somewhere in an obscure paper (or, at least, that will happen). What quite likely will not occur are what's described at the end of certain book. Panzerfaust (talk) 09:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Two thoughts strike me:
  • For the sake of consistency, any and all scenarios centered around heat death (e.g., point 2 and 3 in OP's list) belong under the title of "Big freeze".
  • What would a so-called "Big slurp"-scenario involve?
Thanks is advance. Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 06:01, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps [2]? Anna Livia (talk) 12:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
The "Big Slurp" is here. At least we'd not feel anything. Panzerfaust (talk) 13:44, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

In a nutshell[edit]

Oh, and since the fun is in the speculating — please, enjoy this 'bonus scenario'. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 06:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

False vacuum = Big Slurp. And there's this, even if other scientists -including the author- have shown the calculations there to be wrong. Panzerfaust (talk) 13:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


Back in August, the Forums were blown away, thus leaving the Saloon Bar (alongside /r/rationalwiki) the closest we have to a forum. I had an idea for setting up a MyBB forum, known as the RationalForums, with a bridge between the main site and RationalForums. CJ-Moki (talk) 06:23, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Given that the forums that were hosted on the actual wiki died from an overdose of dust and disuse, why would another forum on a totally different site be any more successful? LongLostLegend (talk) 09:49, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
We have the bar, talk pages, and a subreddit. We don't need a forum. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 13:52, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Why do we need it? Christopher (talk) 14:10, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it, but it's probably not worth the time. We already have a "slow conversation" forum -- the Saloon. If you want a "fast conversation", RationalWiki has a Discord server. FuzzyCatPotato of the Chinese T-shirts (talk/stalk) 15:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

What's the code? —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 17:42, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
https://discord.gg/vWRxA9 Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 01:25, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

This video is absolutely horrifying![edit]

вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 23:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Horrifying? Life without Internet sounds better but with a few drawbacks.—CheeseburgerPlate (talkstalk) 00:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
What of this wiki? For example, I find Conservapedia's existence worth it if it means we exist. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 00:43, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Things would have turned out better if we had stayed at the FTP/Usenet/BBS level. Allowing commercial activity on the Internet was the worst mistake we have a society have made since we decided to tolerate automobiles on public highways. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 14:16, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Allowing automobiles on public highways was a mistake? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't know why you say that. RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:07, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
If we did not tolerate the automobile, people would still use such things as trolleys and trains to get around. This in turn would be highly electrified and otherwise much more environmentally friendly. And while accidents would still happen, we wouldn't have the random carnage of constant car accidents. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 16:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
For freaks of Science as me, if the FTP/Usenet/BBS level you mention allowed to vist stuff as NASA sites and databases as NED or SIMBAD among others, little would have been lost (Hell, I remember to have ever used Lynx). Nonetheless, commercial activity I think that allowed it to blossom for the good, the bad, and the worse. It would have gone there sooner or later. Panzerfaust (talk) 23:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

i would probably be be dead without the internet. or living in essex. the horror, the horror AMassiveGay (talk) 09:06, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I would have never existed. My parents met on a chat room in '97. Surprisingly, it worked out well. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 18:22, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
In Texas, I got TWO WHOLE HOURS of sex education, by a really nervous gym teacher. Without the internet, I wouldn't have known how babies were made til I was 17 or 18. And without the internet, I'd be much less knowledgeable about anything, really. But the science I can learn for free makes the hate and the trolls worth it to me.Asaac Isimov (talk) 00:36, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
First, odd that this conversation has moved from if the internet never existed to sex ed. Second, how much of it was "Gawd will get mad if you aren't abstinent! No condoms! People who oppose us r da Satan! We do this to avoid paying for actual sex ed!"? —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 18:50, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Well, if the internet never existed, I wouldn't have had ANY sex education. And the class was completely focused on how dangerous and scary sex is, so don't ever do it unless you're married. Nothing about condoms or safe sex, just gross pictures of STD's. So, if I never had any internet to teach me otherwise, I'd probably be clueless about it. And obviously it's not just sex ed. I thought the earth was only 6000 years old til I was 11, because a woman I loved and trusted taught me that. We'd all be far more ignorant if there was no internet, and people are really fucking ignorant already, so it could be far far worse.Asaac Isimov (talk) 22:59, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

This video is totally mindblowing[edit]

https://aaathats3as.com/files/commercial.webm—CheeseburgerPlate (talkstalk) 00:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

404. Christopher (talk) 16:45, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


Our Discord is way too empty. Could some people join here? —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 01:47, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Ah, what the hell, I joined. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

The New Cabal[edit]

Really serves no purpose, but I made it anyway. Don't know why I named it this, since there is no cabal for it to succeed. https://discord.gg/yh2MpEвιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 02:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

New invite, please? CJ-Moki (talk) 03:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
https://discord.gg/vvFT9Xвιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 10:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! CJ-Moki (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Saturn ignition (bonus track)[edit]

Looks like the Cassini igniting Saturn thing was more than a comment at Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzccJMP1HLU

After watching Saturn last Saturday with a telescope in memory of said probe, (EDIT. Sarcasm Mode On) I can confirm Saturn has gone "Lucifer" (EDIT. Sarcasm Mode Off). Hell, you don't even need a telescope if you know where to find said planet)[Citation NOT needed]. I'll add later this to the Saturn article Panzerfaust (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Please, like you could recognize a giant ball of fusing hydrogen. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:05, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Revelation 12[edit]

The end is nigh (again!) Revelation 12 Sign. Panzerfaust (talk) 20:35, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh noes ! (talk) 20:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Can someone develop the Apocalypse version of the RationalWiki drinking game? (See Talk:List of predictions of the end of the world) Anna Livia (talk) 21:31, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
No because we'd all die. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
It gets better when you consider Nibiru is said to come back again that day (see here.) Panzerfaust (talk) 21:41, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
The new cabal totally caused this! It's not a coincidence AT ALL. JOIN US OR DIE! —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 22:18, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Everyone knows the world ends in October. I mark October 28th on my calendar every year. See Donnie Darko. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 13:10, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
The worst is that I can picture some of the Fundies behind that telling the Mexico earthquake and the hurricane Maria are signs of the End Times. Never mind God's omnibenevolence then goes out of the window. Panzerfaust (talk) 13:19, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Obviously god hates Puerto Rico because of all the money it hasn't paid back to the United States for the privilege of being a colonial port whose citizens have no rights. And Mexico is just a given. They're brown. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
I have dozens of extended family living in Puerto Rico. This is the first I have heard that they have no rights. They are deceived?Ariel31459 (talk) 16:38, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Either give Puerto Rico statehood or independence. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 19:40, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

For Hating Conservapedia[edit]

I also made a Discord for that: https://discord.gg/E3j9EVвιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 21:49, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

why hate such a fringe and inconsequential website? point and laugh, sure. hate? direct it somewhere more deserving of such a strong emotion. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:25, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I give them mere pity - nature's own sad slide whistle. Semipenultimate (talk) 14:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
The invite doesn't work anymore. Angry stare.gif CJ-Moki (talk) 05:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
You're overdoing it on the discords, man. Pull up! ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
I tore it down shorty after making it. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 18:26, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Some of my professors use Myers-Briggs.[edit]

While there is some information regarding the test on the site, can anybody link me more studies that can refute its validity? I want solid stuff I can show my professors.Teurastaja (talk) 15:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

The reliability seems to be an issue: between 39% and 76% of respondents obtain different type classifications when retaking the indicator after only five weeks.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
To me the big thing on Myers-Briggs is not that it's unreliable, though evidence says it is at least a little unreliable. The big thing is that it was devised, marketed, and became popular without having gone through any peer-reviewed or experimentally controlled empirical research. Its foundations do not have a place centered in scientific research, but human intuition, and should be treated with extra suspicion. LAKES/Big Five personality indexes have more grounded backing, but if they're used the way Myers-Briggs is(i.e. big categorical "types") most of their predictive utility evaporates. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Colorado Springs: for me to poop on![edit]

A Colorado runner keeps pooping in on the sidewalk in front of someone's house in Colorado Springs. It's a libertarian town and the sidewalk is public property, so what's their problem? If the home owners don't like it, they should just buy the sidewalk![3] Bongolian (talk) 17:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Just so long as the the reason is insanity and not necessity, Bongolian. A homeless person doing this would've immediately been beaten half to death and held without bond for 6+ months. Semipenultimate (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
i started on medication awhiles back that had a side effect of 'loosening of the stool'. day to day, i had no problem. however, when i went for a run, the stools did loosen some 10 mins in. the upshot was i make it home sweating bullets some 30 mins short of my planned run. this happened 3 or 4 times before it was sorted. perhaps this runner has been less fortunate? i mean, you'd think you'd try to find a discreet corner or something if there were time or no ulterior motive. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:16, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
i also remember photos of paula radcliffe taking in a shit by the side of the road during the london marathon. your prep and jiggling about when run does make it happen. if you keep doing it, you might need to reconsider your routine. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
This woman has done it at the same spot 3 times, so it's probably one of timing, revenge, or a political statement. Bongolian (talk) 03:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

North Korea[edit]

I'm tired of that sociopathic manboy ruling over that gigantic cult of personality masquerading as a country. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 20:38, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

yeh, hes almost as bad as that kim fella, boom tish AMassiveGay (talk) 20:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
If you're trying to compare Trump to Kim, that ain't funny. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 23:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
yeh it is. in a corny and obvious fashion. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:45, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm just hoping the US doesn't fuck it up even more, and install somebody worse.'Legionwhat do you want from me 23:53, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
its probably not helping that everyword out of trumps mouth ramps up the tension. its as if continually threatening a country with annihilation doesnt make a country feel secure. and it certainly doesnt help that diplomatic avenues are hamstrung by the us showing cannot trusted to keep its own word. what a cunt. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:45, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
If we overthrow Kim, nobody will be installed. That's because it's so unstable that nobody can be installed as leader. The entire country will probably just descend into a massive civil war. Also, China will be really mad at us. —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 09:47, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Poe's Law[edit]

I found this comment on Facebook. Is this real or a parody? "...And the liberals who are perpetrating it want nothing but chaos, anarchy, and free votes to further their perversion and twisted attempt at stealing the souls of American children through public schools. Teaching atheism, gender 'fluidity' and brainwashing them into thinking evil white people are the reason for their failures and sorrows!" —вιgℓʝвιgℓ (ᴛᴀʟᴋ/sᴛᴀʟᴋ) 10:01, 21 September 2017 (UTC)