RationalWiki:Saloon bar

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This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
Laughing.gif Puke.gif For previous conversations see the automagic barchives. Icon beer yellow.gif

What is going on?

The Bar
(talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (hic)

  1. Would human extinction be such a bad thing? (02:27, 24 Mar 2017)
  2. A theocratic movement in the U.S. is gaining power (00:34, 23 Mar 2017)
  3. A couple of cute goat pictures (15:50, 20 Mar 2017)
  4. A few references regarding modern historical periods (14:31, 19 Mar 2017)
  5. It would appear that it's actually quite patriotic to punch Nazis (11:48, 17 Mar 2017)
  6. Is there any hope (15:14, 13 Mar 2017)
To do list


[edit] Why do liberals hate Putin and Gaddafi and conservatives love them?

Let's start with Gaddafi. He overthrew a reactionary, pro-Western monarchy, proclaimed his country a Socialist state based on left-libertarian/anarcho-syndicalist ideas of direct democracy and worker self-management, was a fanatical enemy of Israel and supporter of Third World anti-imperialism, supported every radical leftist terror group on the planet and tried to assassinate Saint Ronnie to boot (and Ronnie tried to assassinate him). He was basically an Arab version of Castro or Chavez but perhaps even more radically on the Left. To be fair he did try to make nice with the Empire in later years but so did Castro, and while he participated in CIA torture programs Castro actually let Gitmo exist on his "socialist paradise" island. But when the rebellion against Gaddafi, which used the flag of the monarchy overthrown in 1969 as its symbol, broke out in 2011 virtually all liberals and most communists (except the despised tankies) in the developed world cheered the "people's uprising against the brutal right-wing authoritarian dictator puppet of the west and the zionists" and backed the NATO bombing of Libya (the radical leftists said "refused to oppose") and cheered the murder of Gaddafi by rebels. Keep in mind that these are mostly the same people who praised Castro as "life-long champion of anti colonial liberation who stood up to the yankee oppressors", but when Gaddafi was in a direct violent conflict with the USA (which Castro never was) they cheered the Usa. Conservatives, on the other hand, showed staunch support for Gaddafi as an "ally of America and Israel who is helping us torture alQaeda terrorists" (nevermind that his reasons for opposing Islamic fundamentalism had nothing to do with the reasons America does) and denouncing the rebels as part of a "Barack Obama/George Soros Muslim Brotherhood conspiracy to promote gay marriage and Sharia law and help Iran destroy Israel and kill Christians with marijuana abortions". When nato began bombing Libya conservatives who cheered the Iraq war suddenly became pacifists, and condemned the killing of Gaddafi as proof of Obama's Marxist Muslim barbarism despite having applauded the execution of Sadam by Bush. These same people celebrated the death of Castro as a "Marxist anti-American commie dictator who supported terrorists"

Another example of this bizarre reversal of cold war positions is the progressive's pathological hatred of Russia and the Putin worship on the right. It seems like the right completely ignores Putin's support of Latin American socialists and the fact that he is a former KGB agent who says Stalin wasn't so bad, and instead believe he is a macho defender of Christian values who kicks Muslim ass and hacks Democrat e-mails, therefore Russia is the second greatest country in the world (America is third.) Meanwhile liberals hate Putin so much they support openly neo-Nazis groups in both Ukraine and Russia as part of a "democratic resistance" against Putin, because Putin is homophobic and Christian and fascist and helped install the Donald in an electoral coup. (I'm sure Svoboda and Right Sector would love to know that LGBT activists support them...try telling them that to their faces.) The only thing that remains consistent from the cold war is that the right recoil in utter terror at the very thought of Marxists in Latin America, whereas liberals see Latin American Marxists as Democratic revolutionaries who just want to be free from the Empire and, unlike Marxist regimes elsewhere, you don't have to be a Tankie to romanticized them. (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Quiiite sure you have it backwards on Kaddhafi (may his spellings be many), in that the far left is quick to overlook his general awfulness and the right despises him. CorruptUser (talk) 04:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

OK. In both these cases, sentiments are not universal among conservatives and liberals, but generally follow the party line dictated by the party leadership in whatever era. For example, most people of my generation likely still view Nikita Khruschev as another Hitler, as our leaders told us c.1962. Few, if any, realize his reputation has been rehabilitated as the original proponent of Glasnost, which is why the Politburo shitcanned him. Ghaddafi is a good parallel to Khruschev - a heartless killer in his early life, only to realize he didn't want to die like Ceaușescu, he wasn't like Stalin, and he really did have the best interests of his people at heart. A 'benevolent dictatorWikipedia's W.svg', like Castro or Frederick the Great. Gaddafi became the model we would have liked to see Kim jong-un or Saddam follow, rather than disrupt 10 of millions of peoples lives to send a million man army after him to kill him (like Hitler). Once Ghaddafi made peace with the outside world, his focus was on internal enemies - the jihadis.
As to Putin, he represents two fundamental reforms we fought the Cold War over, (1) an internal reform of orderly succession, or a term-limited head of state. The Soviets continued the tradition of the Czars of having a ruler for life, who only accummuluted more power and only chance for change or reform was murder or natural death. (2) And externally, an opening of trade with the world. Rather than a ceaseless arms race, both countries are supposed to be focused on reduced defense spending, and economic development for the consumer market.
Needless to say, Hillary and Obama fucked this all up. So good luck to the next generation. Mine fought a mindless Cold War for half a century. Now it's your turn. At least until a visionary figure like Nixon comes along, and forges agreements and alliances that keep the peace between the US, Russia, and China for another 45 years. nobs 05:31, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
That's a good joke, nobs, "visionary figure like Nixon"! Perhaps you're referring to his extreme paranoid visions?! Nixon was a mere 6 or 7 on a scale of 10 for autocratic yearnings according to his reformed henchman, John Dean. Bongolian (talk) 06:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Counting the Napoleanic Wars, there have been four major wars that have wracked Europe. Since 1871, each became larger and larger, engulfing more of the world. Following each of these wars, statesmen arose, with varying degrees of success, to forge alliance systems intended to last decades beyond their lifetimes. As I write this, the alliance system forged by Nixon - one of the longest running and most successful since the Congress of Vienna in 1815 after the Napoleanic wars, is fraying. Frankly, as I listen to you, I take it as further evidence that system is breaking down, and another worldwide conflagration is inevitable. nobs 06:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
These are the five interludes between the four wars of the major hegemons, or 'Superpowers':
  • The Age of Metternich, 1815-48 (33 years)
  • The Age of Bismarck 1862-1914 (52 years)
  • The Age of Wilson 1919-39 (20 years)
  • The Age of Churchill 1945-1972 (27 years)
  • The Age of Nixon 1972-? (45 years)
Two observations are necessary: peace is not permanent and should never be taken for granted; (2) the current era is very likely coming to a close. — Unsigned, by: RobSmith / talk / contribs
Looking at any of this ideologically is naive, but something tells me you already know that. It's all about political convenience. Republicans loved the Libyan conflict and hated Gaddafi until it became an excuse to attack Obama/Clinton. Republicans accused Obama of being way too soft on Russia and being harder on Putin, until one of their own started to cozy up to them. You could see it happen in real time, between 2014 and December 2016, approval rating of Putin went up by 56 points. This had nothing to do with ideology, or because anything significant changed in relations between 2014 and 2016. People just flipped criticizing/drawing attention to Russia became a "Democrat thing to do." Nor does this ultimately have anything to do with internal right/left ideology, American voters don't know anything about internal Libyan or Russian politics so their representatives don't have to care either. It's almost like partisans can be led... a bit like some kind of amalgamation of a sheep and people... Hentropy (talk) 22:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I'd agree 99%+ with that. And it is undeniable the #Resistance movement has used, and continues to use, Russophobic xenophobia since before the election to attack Trump. In fact, not only have they used it, that is only substance to any of their allegations. nobs 00:46, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Other than the first one of your "Ages" (The Age of Metternich), nobs, none of these have seem to have any recognition whatsoever among historians. "The Age of Churchill" doesn't make much sense because the British Empire began falling apart immediate after the war and was nearly complete by about 1960. So was Churchill the great decolonizer? I think not. It was Roosevelt's idea, and Churchill apparently agreed but never sent it ("The Atlantic Charter") to Parliament. The "Age of Nixon" is just a joke, right? By the way, do you have a tattoo of Nixon on your back too?[1] Bongolian (talk) 02:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Churchill was the original founder of the alliance to defeat Hitler. All others, Chamberlain. Daladier, and Stalin himself, were all too willing to compromise with Hitler. FDR was isolated in isolationist America. If not for Churchill's stubbornness to resist, to aid Stalin and De Gaulle, and recruit FDR into the fight, Hitler would have been successful, or at least more successful for a longer period of time than the 6 years to defeat him.
If not for Churchill, post-1945 the Nazi regime would have more likely perished from its own internal corruption than any external enemy willing to challenge it, and God knows how long that may have taken. It was Churchill approach to Stalin in June 1941 that earns him the title as the founder of a new global alliance. FDR, the UN, and the Cold War are just the following chapters in Churchill's vision of a new alliance system to maintain world peace.
As to the tat, no. But when saw this picture I got teary-eyed, and still do. nobs 06:45, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
that's arse. Churchill was voted outed out of office in 1945 and was largely irrelevent post war as he would have been had the war not happened as he was pre war. by 1943 he was already sidelined by the us. he played little part the wave of decolonisation nor the cold war squabbles and interference in these countries that provided the battle ground for the cold war. Churchill was most prominent at the tale end end of empire which was dead by the end of the war. saying the post war period was his 'age' makes as much sense as saying it was the age of Hitler, but at least he was the cause of the war that shaped the world we live in today. if we are going to say its was the age of anyone, it was Stalin. after all, he was in charge when the soviets dominated eastern Europe and central asia and the cold war began, and was the cause of everything the US did back then AMassiveGay (talk) 13:12, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't be averse to that categorization. That's why most history texts call the era immediately after 1945 the Cold War. But a period of peace without confrontation between major world powers didn't occur on its own. It took a man (or person) to forge agreements between major powers with serious differences. 20 years before this photo was taken, Russia was a third world power that lost a war with Poland. Before the end of the decade, it was a nuclear superpower. And Churchill, looking at Stalin & Hitler, did not toss a coin who to back. Knowing full well Stalin was a monster, Churchill nonetheless realized the Russian Empire & USSR simply had more experience governing wide swaths of the planet and foreign peoples than the Nazi did, so he backed Stalin, which influenced the outcome.
Churchill's domestic policies or popularity, as Nixon, Metternich, or Bismarck, have no relevance to their role in forging understandings between powerful nations and as a world peacemaker. nobs 20:45, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
nobs PIDOOMAs it again, ignoring the fact that Hitler functionally declared war on the British Empire by overrunning France where British troops were stationed.Wikipedia's W.svg USSR did not declare war on Britain. After Hitler attacked the USSR, the enemy of Churchill's enemy became his friend. Bongolian (talk) 06:48, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Well duh, it was a big step - and a shock for the world - when Churchill reached out to Stalin. But you're missing the point. It was one man, one man only, who had the will to resist and the vision how the world should be ordered to maintain peace. Voters had no say in Churchill's Premiership. The guys the voters elected were chickenshits. Look what Wikipedia says one month into Churchill's term,
"An element of British public and political sentiment favoured a negotiated peace with Germany, among them Halifax as Foreign Secretary. Over three days in May (26-28 May 1940), there were repeated discussions within the War Cabinet of whether the UK should associate itself with French approaches to Mussolini to use his good offices with Hitler to seek a negotiated peace..."
Unquestionably, it was Churchill that made the difference, cause the whole fucking country and cabinet wanted to throw in the towel. Here's a fact of history: Hitler until the day he blew his brains out never could understand why Britain was fighting against him. Hitler thought Imperialist Britain and Germany - racial cousins - were natural allies against the Soviet Union and communism. That's one reason he didn't slaughter the Brits on the beaches of Dunkirk, against the advice of his generals (this author cites moments before the surrender of Paris, Churchill proposed a European Union of France & UK). It was one man who kept Britain in the fight.
This is how peace, and alliances are forged. It is as if all the competing interests of the world are fused into the body of one man. Look at Franz Josef I of Austria, for example. Here's his title:
His Imperial and Apostolic Majesty, Franz Joseph I, By the Grace of God, Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, King of Lombardy and Venice, of Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem etc., Archduke of Austria; Grand Duke of Tuscany and Cracow, Duke of Lorraine, of Salzburg, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola and of the Bukovina; Grand Prince of Transylvania; Margrave of Moravia; Duke of Upper and Lower Silesia, of Modena, Parma, Piacenza and Guastalla, of Auschwitz [Oświęcim] and Zator, of Teschen [Cieszyn/Těšín], Friuli, Ragusa [Dubrovnik] and Zara [Zadar]; Princely Count of Habsburg and Tyrol, of Kyburg, Gorizia and Gradisca; Prince of Trent [Trento] and Brixen [Bressanone]; Margrave of Upper and Lower Lusatia and in Istria; Count of Hohenems, Feldkirch, Bregenz, Sonnenberg, etc.; Lord of Trieste, of Cattaro [Kotor], and in the Wendish Mark; Grand Voivode of the Voivodina of Serbia etc. etc.
Franz Josef held all this shit together in one empire for 67 years, and when he died, it died. It is not bureacrats and technocrats, or a vanguard class, that have secured peace for decades between competing interests and world Powers, it is visionaries who can explain their vision to their fellow citizens and convince them to come along. nobs 08:05, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Nobs, where do you come up with this nonsense? I almost hesitate to ask. Churchill was Prime Minister from 1940-1945 and 1951-1955. "He held all this shit together in one empire for 67 years…" is bollocks. And yet you claim "and when he died, it died" while still claiming that the "Age of Churchill" was "1945-1972". More bollocks. Bongolian (talk) 03:28, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Merkel understands, as "the last defender of the liberal world order" and "the most important leader the world has right now", these things don't happen on their own, otherwise you wouldn't need politicians. nobs 21:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── You want to know why the post-World War II and post-Cold War peace structure is breaking down now? Global peace and stability was built on consumerismWikipedia's W.svg. From Hitler's death to Yeltsin, a global consensus emerged that world peace could best be maintained by open trade and developing domestic consumer markets, rather than heavy taxes to maintain both the capitalist and communist's military industrial complexes. The de-growth, anti-consumer, Earth First movements are daggers aimed at the heart of the established international order and world peace. nobs 22:16, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

While I take issue with the modern environmentalist movement for tolerating horribly anti-scientific views (anti-GMO, anti-nuclear, etc) and am convinced that a large amount of the funding comes from groups with ulterior motives, including some who are trying to sabotage the US, the current breakdown in world peace has little to do with that. It's because financial mismanagement of the US is causing the balance of power to shift away from it, while Russia collapsed but is doing what it can to gain it back even if it means destablizing everything else in the process, China is mostly keeping to their own region but rapid industrialization has given them a lot of power in that region, and the Islamic world has massive population growth which means that even fringe groups are not so tiny anymore. CorruptUser (talk) 03:12, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Without passing any judgement on "who's right who"s wrong", let me lay out some observation's in the post- World War II era (which we can also call, "The Nuclear Age"). From 1945 to DetenteWikipedia's W.svg, the United States fought two 'hot wars' against the communist bloc, basically Russia and China, unwinnable in the Nuclear Age. Intense ideological competition fueled the military industrial policy on all sides. High defense spending retards domestic economic growth. But under the US capitalist model, first with Marshall Plan, and in the 60s with the Space Race, War on Poverty, and Vietnam War simultaneously, the US was able to prove to the communistic bloc the superiority of capitalism. Russia and China, and their populations, wanted in on the consumer society.
This meant for them defense conversion, switching over a basically WWII perpetual wartime industrial model to producing domestic consumer goods. China was the first to embrace it, although it took Russia another decade. Consumption was king, and the solution to world peace and the threat of nuclear Armageddon.
Based on this theory, institutions were created to foster it, the IMF, the EU, NAFTA, and plans to recruit the "developing world" to the gospel of world peace and consumerism.
But there has always been an environmental movement, out of which has grown the climate change debate. And in Islam, the call to the final jihad, cites "Western secular materialism" as the biggest threat to Islam. This video which is very informative, says radical Islam is a youth movement, ages 15-25, that rejects Western values.
Again, without passing judgement on what's right or wrong, what is good or bad, these observations point to Salafism and the global warming movement travelling along parallel tracks that are critical of the foundational agreements which have avoided a direct, open, hot war between the world's three Superpowers. Unravelling these agreements, at a minimum, means a world of instability. nobs 04:38, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm actually in favor of some form of containment with regards to Salafism, and don't think we should let Salafis into the West, refugee or not, while I do support letting more refugees in... so long as it's not vastly more men than women the way it is now. I just don't know how to do so without also violating the whole "freedom of religion" thing that's generally agreed to be a good idea. CorruptUser (talk) 05:23, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Here's the dilemma: the old-school Cold warriors on all sides of the tri-polar debate say peace and trade go hand-in-hand. 'Trade' being a codeword for 'consumerism'. Through this formula we've avoided nuclear war for 70 years, although we've failed at curtailing proliferation. The people of India, China, Brazil, Indonesia, Russia, the EU and elsewhere all are living the Amrerican dream, success and freedom defined as driving a gas polluting vehicle. The climate change movement says consumption threatens tbe planet. The Salafis say Western consumerism threatens Islam's survival. Are the people of all tbe aforementioned countries willing to bow to these political forces, whose policy objectives are the same? This is only one problem in sorting how to find a path of continued existence on the planet, cause neither the climate change advocates, the Salafis, or Westernized mass consumers have a monopoly on the solution.
Remember George Bush's immediate advice to citizens how to respond to the 9/11 attack? "Go shopping." In theory, he was right. And that thinking sustained us another 16 years. But I see whole system breaking down fairly rapidly. nobs 05:49, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Holy crap, Jontron's gone off the deep end.

This discussion was moved to Talk:JonTron#Holy crap, Jontron's gone off the deep end..

[edit] of fake data and google

https://u.nya.is/qcvnez.png — Unsigned, by: FAMAS / talk / contribs 17:46, 17 March 2017

I'm actually more concerned that you haven't updated your Chrome browser. Keep in mind that Chrome is mostly open source so any fixed exploitable bugs are public knowledge. — (talk) 13:11, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
in reply to User:CheeseburgerFace, this user asserts the fact that this user never utilized the chrome browser and this user utilized firefox to discover comodo dragon and icedragon browsers and uses them from then and onwards which are regularly updated.FAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) [[2]] 13:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Could you STOP with the "this user asserts" stuff please. Christopher (talk) 13:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
@FAMAS: consider checking out the Wikipedia article on Comodo Dragon.Wikipedia's W.svg
@Christopher: I had to reformat your post.— (talk) 15:01, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Maybe that many <big></big> tags was a bit excessive. Christopher (talk) 15:16, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, it's stupid politics stuff

The Donald Trump limerick generator. It takes real sentences from Trumptweets and at random fits their rhyming and rhythm scheme into a limerick. Sometimes quite profound.

The Wilson family should thank me.

Ask yourself.What am I pretending not to see?

An overrated clown!

Everyone else way down!

@Phil_Grech Your not free, you'll never be free.

Amusing, if occasionally depressing. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 19:46, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Holy crap, this is the best thing since the Deepak Chopra deepity generator (Link).
Here's what I got on my first try:

Be sure to tune in tonight at 9PM ET @NBC.

Dopey, nobody is laughing at me!

Bret is a winner!

Bartley Gala dinner.

Then ask. What am I pretending not to see?

Like the Deepak one, it's astounding how non-random random gibberish seems to us humans. We sure have the capacity to invest crazy amounts of meaning, even into noise. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
(Thank you for always knowing what type of quote template to use) ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 19:58, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
No problem. 50% of my job description is being anal retentive. You're welcome! Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

She won’t be so lucky when it comes to me!

Ask yourself.What am I pretending not to see?

Have a nice day.

What is the delay?

This is truly a guy who shouldn't be on tv.

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:25, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I can't remember the whole limerick but I came across this tweet the man's an idiot. Christopher (talk) 12:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
"What am I pretending not to see?" seems to be a favorite. megalodon (talk) 15:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Rational Limerick Contest

Hey good work, Rationalwikians! Why not collect these into a limerick generator for funspace? Bongolian (talk) 05:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I take that back; is my poetic meter busted or are some of you guys not following the limerick meter? Ronin looks good, but Rev??? Bongolian (talk) 05:35, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Actually, I'm the one following the Limerick meter... The sentences of a limerick are supposed to be read out at different speeds, in a non-melodic but strictly paced way, and that means you can only have a certain number of syllables in the different sections of the limerick. All my submissions nail the optimal syllable count (I've balanced them for that) and can be read out loud with a consistent tempo. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
For an example of the optimal limerick pacing (and it's also an excellent limerick), see here . Translation available here. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Good one! Bongolian (talk) 20:16, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] RoninMacbeth

Kind of self-explanatory. I'll start. Ahem:

There once was a man named Trump,

Who really was kind of a grump.

So he ran for the White House

And the Nazis he did rouse

So now we're all down in the dumps.

Anyone else? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:32, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a man named Andy,

Who gave CP bans out like candy.

“The speed of light has decayed

For Earth was made in but days!”

Such statements this man thought were dandy.

I came up with this one walking home from swim practice. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:31, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a man named Roko.

Whose theory was thought to be loco.

So LessWrong went in flames,

And Eliezer was shamed

Now nobody mentions poor Roko.

I'm less proud of this one. RoninMacbeth (talk) 00:44, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Ikanreed

A man was a highly skilled homeopath

He would mix and dilute in his bath

Only one small problem this lent

There was not one molecule of ingredient

Because this man sucked at basic math

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:41, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I had an infection that turned my skin bright red

I took my chiro's advice and went with alt med

Don't trust Big Pharm

Because what's the harm

And now I'm lying on my death bed

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:52, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

There was this certain theory

About how everything was a conspiracy

And don't trust the news

Because it's run by the Jews

And all these coincidences are eerie

(Sorry for the slant rhyme) ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:00, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

schools will never teach intelligent design

because there's no evidence coming down the line

and complexity irreducible

can't survive the scientific crucible

No matter how much Darwin you quote mine

ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:15, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Reverend Black Percy

Dopey FAKE NEWS? Very sad!

I'm the best prez that we ever had!

InfoWars dares to say,

Now the frogs have turned gay,

That Pepe wants to be called Chad!

(My first attempt, I hope the references aren't too obscure) Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The moon is a spaceship IT'S TRUE!!

How could I be misleading you?!

As I fell out of bed,

Landed right on my head,

The truth of the Matrix broke through!!

(Guess who) Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Courageous Freeman-on-the-land,

The judge forced him to take the stand!

Though they had his passport,

He remarked with a snort,

"the REAL me's in Gondwanaland!"

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Tankies will call you "Comrade!"

Say "Stalinism wasn't that bad!"

Just don't point out

That Hegel was a kraut

Or you'll turn them stark raving mad!

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

A long-debunked communist plot,

"The tap water is your garrotte!"

But since things are fine,

Lest you WAKE UP online,

Mike Adams will have written for naught!

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The denier knows his alphabet,

"AGW" means "A lie from Soviet!"

For each science report,

saves his brilliant retort,

"But I'm not even breaking a sweat!"

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Chemtrails must turn people gay,

It's all in that deviant spray!

Some damn plane in the sky,

Must've hit a bullseye,

Cause I can't stop watching men's ballet!

I'm actually a bit proud of this one. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Things hadn't turned out as planned,

When Moses got lost in the sand!

Wandering the desert,

Not so much as a skirt,

But atleast he got quite nicely tanned!

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:57, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Darwin claims "Man is an ape",

But there's one question he can't escape!

It's "Oh, were you there?"

Since his proof is threadbare,

We'll need monkeys transforming ON TAPE!

#ReasonableCreationistDemands Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)'ll

[edit] LeftyGreenMario

Do you know the Banana Man

Who tried to find out how life began?

He literally took a slapstick fruit

And proven that scientists don't give a hoot

Aside from laughing as hard as they can!

Mom told her little Deneb

Trust no strangers on the web

But Mom embraced a random meme

That promised could fulfil her autism-free dream

Her kid is now caught in a sick web.

[edit] David Gerard

Rational rational rational

Rational rational rational

Rational rational

Rational rational

Rational rational rational

"But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:57, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Rationalzombie94

There once was a creationist

There once was a creationist, he thought his mind was spacious

He preached and preached religion

But nobody listened to the dick

He preached and preached then got an education

He learned and learned to find his God didn't exist

He cried and cried till his spirit died and ended up in Tartarus

The creationist cried and cried when he saw the smirk in Hades's eyes

Hades preached and preached Jesus was only imagination.

The creationist screamed and scream as he was tortured

The creationist was a dick, a dick, a dick he learned

But the pain would never end for the asshole creationist creationist

He was a Nazi who committed murder by proxy

He didn't care if the people were dyin

He created squads of death that took peoples breath

The Nazi by Proxy got trapped in a boxy

With no way out and with out a doubt he was dead sauerkraut.

Okay I am not good with limericks --That Undead Schizophrenic (talk) 21:37, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Goodpost.gif Know thyself. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] nobs

There once was a man named Barack

Who had a wife that looked like a jock

One night while they're sleepin'

Under the covers he's peekin'

And said, "My God, I thought it was a sock!"

nobs 03:40, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, that was funny. You get brownie points for that!--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:45, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
There once was guy named Trump

Who could rile people on the stump

To Washington he came

And left it the same

When he ended by drowning in the swamp

nobs 06:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a boy named Ryan

With big ideas a-flyin'

When they told him to fix-it

He said he would nix-it

Now the poor people are cryin'

nobs 06:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There once was a hag named Pelosi

Whose leadership style was lousy

When they tried to replace her

No one would face her

Cause she looked like Bela Lugosi!

nobs 10:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There was an ol' putz named Schumer

Who couldm't shake off the rumor

No matter how hard tried

Or how loud he cried

He likes to lick the shit off his bloomers

Disclaimer: for NPOV purposes, I struggled hard to come up with a McConnell one. Anybody any ideas to get started? nobs 10:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There was a young man named Bruno

Who said there is one thing I do know

A woman is fine

And a sheep is devine

But a llama is numero uno

[edit] Smerdis of Tlön

Rising to the challenge

There is a Senator McConnell

A foe to things floral and faunal.

Global warning he spurned

So as the world burned

The climate turned more and more saunal.

- Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:37, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] DiamondDisc1

Here's one from old Percy.
Vandals on here take a risk,

This sysop might give them a frisk!

Unbuckling his belt,

And the damage is dealt,

"You WILL stare at my fucking disc!"

Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Good job RBP :p-(Ir)RationalWikian (talk) 05:07, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! ^^ Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] The deep state strikes again!

Ex-GOP rep blames arrest [for attempting to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars] on 'deep state' conspiracy. This needs a page. The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 23:49, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Added to the backlog. Regards, Cosmikdebris (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] AIDS denialism help needed

Attention anyone who is familiar with HIV/AIDS denialism (especially Peter Duesberg), your help is needed on the 'talk page regarding some detailed issues that a BoN has raised. Bongolian (talk) 02:07, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

this user asserts the fact that the issue has been resolvedFAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) [[3]] 11:22, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Is the climate change movement saying consumption threatens the planet?

Here's the dilemma: the old-school Cold warriors on all sides of the tri-polar debate say peace and trade go hand-in-hand. 'Trade' being a codeword for 'consumerism'. Through this formula we've avoided nuclear war for 70 years, although we've failed at curtailing proliferation. The people of India, China, Brazil, Indonesia, Russia, the EU and elsewhere all are living the Amrerican dream, success and freedom defined as driving a gas polluting vehicle. The climate change movement says consumption threatens tbe planet. The Salafis say Western consumerism threatens Islam's survival. Are the people of all tbe aforementioned countries willing to bow to these political forces, whose policy objectives are the same? This is only one problem in sorting how to find a path of continued existence on the planet, cause neither the climate change advocates, the Salafis, or Westernized mass consumers have a monopoly on the solution.

Remember George Bush's immediate advice to citizens how to respond to the 9/11 attack? "Go shopping." In theory, he was right. And that thinking sustained us another 16 years. But I see whole system breaking down fairly rapidly. nobs 05:49, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what that conversation was about anymore, so I made a new section.

An arbitrary definition of success and freedom is such an easy way to "prove" than Indians are living the American dream. And yet, in this listWikipedia's W.svg, the US is number 3 with 797 road motor vehicles (excluding two-wheelers) per 1000 people, India is number 160 with 18... If we want to cherry pick criteria to fit our narratives, at least let's try to get some numbers.

AGW is a measurable physical phenomenon, it means that we (humans everywhere, not targeting anyone) are putting so much CO2 into the atmosphere that the planet's temperature is increasing more than it would have naturally. Magically shifting energy sources would stop our CO2 output without requiring any reduction in production or consumption. But this is a huge technological challenge, transportation is only a part of it (15% according to this, "the largest net contributor to climate change pollution" according to this), and before we get there, reducing waste overall would help (it would also help with many other things).

I don't have any two-word solution that will make the world a better place. Things are constantly changing, and ignoring the changes is the first step away from a solution. --Cmonk (talk) 12:59, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

"Climate Change Movement" there's no such thing. Only people who know what they're talking about. Christopher (talk) 13:03, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
So what is the opposite of 'global warming denier', a global warming proponent? nobs 17:10, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
The same as the opposite of 'holocaust denier' or any other kind of 'reality denier': a realist. --Cmonk (talk) 19:23, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
@Cmonk: Here's a short excerpt from a World Wildlife Fund report pg 8:
The main driver of our increased demands on the planet over the last decades is an explosion in global consumption driven by seemingly insatiable consumer wants.

However, countries have not equally benefited from this consumption growth. While there is a global consumer class – mainly based in industrialised countries – growing in extent and affluence, more and more are slipping deeper and deeper into poverty and are not able to meet their basic needs for food, water and shelter. Today the overall consumption of the richest fifth of the world’s population is nine times that of the poorest fifth (UNEP, 2002).

In line with these disparities in the global geography of consumption, the lifestyle of people in different countries poses very different demands on the planet and countries have contributed very differently to global environmental problems. While the Ecological Footprint of the average American, for example, is 9.4 gha/cap, a person in India only has a footprint of 0.9 gha/cap. The Ecological Footprint of Sweden is 5.1 gha/cap. In comparison to the recommended 2,1 gha/cap that the planet is able to cope with (WWF, 2008), we would need another 2 planets to sustain our lifestyle if everyone in the world would live like we do in Sweden.

Therefore, the world is faced with a twofold challenge. We need to reduce the overall demands on the planet while meeting our present needs more widely and to allow future generations to meet their needs. This is the idea behind the concept of sustainable development, which we hope will lead to “the fulfilment of basic needs, improved living standards for all, better protected and managed ecosystems and a safer more prosperous future” (UN, 1992).

(Note many of these hypotheses and projected statistical conclusions take no consideration of future gains in energy efficiency, an unknown variable). nobs 17:39, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
It's the Capitalist Peace Theory that basically says that trade and capitalism cause peace because in an interdependent world economy war is too distruptive. CorruptUser (talk) 18:06, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Hence my conclusion, that breakdown of that paradigm, which is occurring now fairly rapidly, is leading to a world of political instability. In the period of 1945-72, the only nuclear powers were the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. Today they can be defied, and we're not even talking about non-state actors. There are other competing interests now. And another point still still stands: proponents of global warming theory are following a political agenda and twin track that parallels Salafism - anti-Western materialism and consumerism, without passing judgement on the merits of either. nobs 18:24, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
In my opinion, it should be expected that any entity with the will and resources could develop arbitrary levels of science and technology, simply because the laws of physics are the same for everyone; so it is almost unavoidable that nuclear proliferation would become a global issue. Back on topic, the section in the report that you link (section 1.1 "Living beyond limits") contains 2 parts, a first one about the ecological footprintWikipedia's W.svg which you cited, and a second one about global warming. The idea of ecological footprint includes concepts such as "Carbon, Food, Housing, and Goods and Services", so there is some level of guesswork involved, and it is not without its critiquesWikipedia's W.svg. But global warming is a different thing, with its own measurements and models. It would help if you could specify what you call "global warming theory", because I can't tell whether we are talking about the same thing. --Cmonk (talk) 19:19, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
That's what I'm saying. The movement is elusive. It lingers in the shadows, has a political agenda, attacks its opponents, and denies it exists (see above). Its rhetoric is vague but inspired. I have as much superficial knowledge of global warming as I do the Koran after all these many years, but I'd say it too, is a youth movement that targets the young, with a few grand imams and scholars to inspire its followers that Western values, traditions, and society are a threat to survival. These things aren't to be taken lightly, people 15-25 lack the experience and perspective to govern the planet, but they are the one's who will be called upon to kill each other in a battle of the planet's entrenched, competing interests. None of the old rules we lived by now apply. nobs`
The biggest difference being that global warming has scientific evidence behind it, whereas the Koran is a collection of the speeches of a warlord whose proof of divine inspiration was "I have an army". CorruptUser (talk) 01:27, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
I have no knowledge of such shadow movement. I trust the scientists because I can't check everything myself (no one can). If climate scientists say "AGW is a fact and here is the evidence", then that's my opinion (I do my best to check, but there is only so much I can do). If tomorrow they come out saying "we messed up because of this and that", then I will go with that too, although my trust will have been eroded. If it turns out that it was all a sick joke, then I will probably just give up. I see no rhetoric in a graph that shows temperature increasing over time; the only way to doubt it would be to argue that the individual data points are incorrect, and that is beyond my abilities. I don't have a complete understanding of all the details, but so far everything that I think I know is consistent, and the claims from scientists about the impacts of CO2 date back to the 19th centuryWikipedia's W.svg, so it's not just a new fad. In addition to instabilities caused by ideological conflicts, a changing climate would introduce an additional level of instability by affecting basic housing and food security. Models predict that business as usual should have such negative consequences. And instead of being far away in the future, they have already started: coral bleaching, ice caps melting, floods, islands disappearinglink=wp:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati#Environmental_issues. Is this all just scaremongering? Are these events fake news or merely coincidental? I doubt it, but if the people who dedicate their lives to the question say we should do something about it, then we probably should. --Cmonk (talk) 02:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

There appears to be 'at least some connection' between human activity and 'what happens to the world as a whole' - and if you use fewer resources (or use your resources more effectively) you spend less money (which you can use in other, more enjoyable areas).

Can someone come up with a succinct 'Morton's Fork style version of this? (talk) 17:14, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I also don't know what the "global warming movement" is. The fact is that human activity is causing the world to warm. This isn't a question of political opinion - it's a question of fact.
A possibly associated fact is that the world is a virtually closed system with finite resources. Using these resources generates waste other than CO2 and at some point we will need to move to a sustainable growth model which might even be a zero growth model. Or go to the stars using some as-yet undiscovered technology.
Another possibly associated fact is the enormous inequality in respect of the distribution of wealth between rich countries and poor countries - and also between a relatively small number of fabulously rich people and the rest of humanity.--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:58, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Energy-wise, the planet isn't a closed system because energy from the sun fuels both photosynthesis and global warming. Matter-wise, we are mostly closed (good enough approximation), but even though we have more than enough raw elements (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen), the problem is how these elements are combined: breathable air, drinkable water, edible plants and animals. Because of continuous technological innovations (renewables, desalination, artificial meat) I find it difficult to say what, if anything, will be a long-term problem. Short-term, I am particularly concerned about coastal erosion and fresh water shortages: moving populations is costly and risky, and not even a developed country like the US can just brush off droughts. --Cmonk (talk) 00:27, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. I've been in a two-day, highly insensitive low-level briefing on FISA. Now, here's a problem in achieving a global consensus on global peace, tranquility, while avoiding nuclear war and high levels of carbon emmisions. To achieve this consensus, one-quarter of the planet's population would have to be polled with the question: Who is the final arbiter of truth, Allah or Science? I'd be interested to see editors guesses on polling results, both within the global Muslim population and the world at large (for the remaining 75% of the earth's population, fill in the blank with the local prevailing deity of your choice). My guestimate: Islam: 83% Allah, 13% Science; Global composite aggregate (includes Islam), 75% Deity of your choice, Science 22%, Don't know 3%.
Conclusion: Science might not be ready for primetime for global leadership in the political sphere in the 21st century. nobs 05:02, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Isn't nobs just confusing the degrowth movement (who think that mass consumption is bad) and people who believe in global warming in? Diacelium (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
This term, "sustainable growth" is a term the stop-global-warming movement hijacked from supply siders in the late '80 and early '90s, and gave it its own twist and meaning. Thatcherism, Reaganomics, and supply-side economics was all based on a theory to end stagflationWikipedia's W.svg and promote sustainable growth (i.e. no need for constant government stimulus). When Reagan & Thatcher departed the scene in 1989, they left a theory in place but the leadership (Papa Bush always called it VooDoo economics anyway) wasn't as committed. By 1992, you see the UN footnot in the quotebox above using the term, "sustainable growth" when the stop-global-warming movement was in its infancy. But they really mean something quite different from supply-siders who popularized the term. By "sustainable growth", the stop-global-warming movement realy means rationing in a zero sum society (one persons gain is another person's loss, there is no concept of mutually beneficial exchange).
This flying under the radar with a hijacked term helped make the stop-global-warming movement immensely successful. I had no idea of the corruption of a term I assumed was widely understood and accepted, until I read that report cited above a few weeks ago. nobs 22:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] School Of Life on the cosmopolitan mindset

A worthwhile video! Ripe for critically contrasting against a vast range of topics (beside shyness) — ranging from identity politics to othering to xenophobia and racism... Food for thought. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Layout of an ICR "science" article

  • Introduction of the issue
  • Distort the issue
  • Add no credible insults
  • Quote mine
  • Then Claim the bible is true with no citation or analysis --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 21:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I tried looking at some ICR stuff but I could feel my brain cells crawling out through my ear and jumping off. BicyclewheelToxic mowse.gif 12:33, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Sandboxes

How can I add a sandbox for myself?Anim (Carfa) 12:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

User:Randir/Sandbox. BicyclewheelToxic mowse.gif 12:31, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Today's oxymoron: funny CSPAN-2 clip

I don't really know the context or the people involved, but I did get why people were laughing: https://mobile.twitter.com/SenSasse/status/844630468477771776/video/1 Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:54, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Can't speak for the oxy, but cspan never has any sort of shortage of morons. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:21, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Also that's the senate, so CSPAN-2, not CSPAN. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:23, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Duly noted. Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:27, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
This is good staff work - setting up the joke. Kinda like Donna Brazile getting the leaked questions in the debate. nobs 02:15, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] SolveMedia captcha not working on Firefox 52

Got a report that people using Firefox 52 can't create accounts - the SolveMedia captcha just doesn't show anything. I can reproduce this in FF 52 Ubuntu too. I can see the captcha in Chromium 56. Anyone else? Anyone know why?

(The SolveMedia thing was bodged on by Trent years ago. I'd replace it ReCaptcha, but the current ReCaptcha v2 requires MediaWiki 1.26 or higher, and the older ReCaptcha 1 is being retired at some unspecified time soon.) - David Gerard (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Aw, damnit, I need to dump my changes into a repo somewhere. It really was a small change. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:33, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

[edit] Women's fashions as a signpost of changing times

For the first time ever, I found a link from CP's MPR relevent, timely, and interesting. Suffice it to say the final section sums it up wjth a quote from the editor of Teen Vogue

The foundation of Vogue’s leadership and authority is the brand’s unique role as a cultural barometer for a global audience. Vogue places fashion in the context of culture and the world we live in – how we dress, live and socialize; what we eat, listen to and watch; who leads and inspires us. Vogue immerses itself in fashion, always leading readers to what will happen next. Thought-provoking, relevant and always influential, Vogue defines the culture of fashion.

So here's an effort to marry the youth of Western civilization brainwashed by the anti-God, secular global warming movement with proponents of shariah law. All based on the gospel of consumerism. Oy vey. nobs 16:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

>anti-God, secular
>sharia law
You can't do both, sorry :/ Lord Aeonian (talk) 17:39, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Wrong. Sharia proponents and the anti-God, secular, pro-Science stop-global-warming movement are both anti-consumer, anti-Western materialism, anti-supply side. nobs 21:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
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