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  1. Oriental Medicine (12:14, 29 Nov 2016)
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[edit] While I (respectfully) disagree with Atheism, I don't see why other religious nuts mock them

I believe there are an never ending amount of Gods, people have to choose their own path. Wither you find your own beliefs or choose no belief, it is up to the person to find their own path. Even if atheists could be wrong (just a conjecture) and Christianity is right, I am sure God would be forgiving as long if someone was a good person and helped others unconditionally then they would get rewarded for living a good life. We must choose our own path.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 16:24, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

You're absolutely right that — in the hypothethical scenario that a theist designer God exists — there's no way that he would disapprove of us utilizing the very reason and doubt that he so thoughtfully endowed us with in the first place. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Then I hope your hypothetical God is as forgiving as you RZ. Many (perhaps most) deities are a somewhat less understanding, but with luck you have chanced on the right one.--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:46, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Hey, I'm just thinking — based on the premises that God loves us, wants us to be our "fullest selves", and that he designed us with foresight. He then proceeded to fake an old universe, hide all evidence of his involvement in its creation, and here we are — self-aware, doubtful, querulant, and with the ability to reason (somewhat). I mean, come on. For all I know, he's testing us — to see which of us will squander the gift of reason he's imparted on us. *shrugs* You can't disprove it! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
On the subject of the origin of the universe (off subject, I know), it could be possible that the big bang occurred without divine intervention but on a different timeline where humans evolved to the point where they could go back in time to create the universe that we exist in (much like Godly beings).--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Very interesting.-DiamondDisc1(talk) 02:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Though, not as interesting as this article. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

{reset) Or the Isaac Asimov story that can be summarised as 'computerdidit.'

For those so inclined Jesus said 'My Father's house (or possibly domain) has many mansions' - and how many people would see 'Purgatory as a sort of school detention equivalent where we "dealt with" all our little acts of naughtiness' (leaving hell to the really bad persons) as reasonable? Doing 'little acts of helpfulness and amusing others' in real life would lessen the detention. 86.191.127.2 (talk) 22:42, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] RationalWiki Twitter account (sticky)

Salvaged from a revdelled discussion.

Look, the rationalwiki twitter account is just David Gerard. He tries to promote the site on social media when he's not writing books about blockchains being silly. This association fallacy you're trying to draw is site-twitterfeed-Meyers-child rape apollogia(How exactly do your links show that?). It's really tenuous. I never even read PZ Meyers until you started ranting about he was the worst thing ever, and now I think he's just a skeptical biology professor. As far as I can tell, Aneris, in context, you're just crazy. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 16:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Barring his interpretations, I think Aneris raises a decent point. Does social media promotion actually do anything positive? Are there any pretty graphs we can look at? Data? Nothing against Gerard, but he's basically speaking on behalf of the entire wiki. I can maybe see Twitter promo raising awareness among people who already need no convincing, but I have a harder time seeing it improving general public sentiment. Polarization seems more likely. Obviously I have nothing to back that up, though, hence asking for graphz. B) talk 17:09, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure harnessing every single action to the yoke of metrics would create an excessive burden. As long as the twitter generally serves the site's mission I'm disinclined to care. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:21, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I guess so. My concern is that it may be counterproductive, though well-intended. Twitter can be an echo chamber for those who agree with you and a reinforcer for those who don't. But until I have an actual case I'll leave it be. B) talk 17:31, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Twitter is garbage! If it were to suddenly go offline, the world would be a much better place! I'm not a member, but I often open it up to read tweets on an issue, and my God....it's far worse than an echo chamber. It's a cesspool. You might occasionally find a nugget of gold in it, but most of the time, you'll just find shit. Rant over. As you were. --Levi Ackerman (talk) 18:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
A most blatant misunderstanding about RationalWiki is the suggestion that the actions of any one editor somehow "represents" more than that same editor — never mind the site itself (?). Not even (very rare) official actions of elected board members represent the site, just the foundation (as clearly stipulated). We're an internet hangout for cats — and, to boot, nobody is even attempting to herd us. There's literally nothing monolithic to be found in this place. We're all volunteers, and there's no set anything anyone has to do about anything. At the end of the day, it's just multiplayer notepad. Nothing to be upset about, in other words. Unless your starting position is being upset already, and then going from there retrofitting various concoced reasons that promote said annoyance as being reasonable, of course. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 18:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I'm not at all upset that DG is "speaking for me", or upset at all. I raised this because I'm concerned it may not be effective in promoting the site's mission. I would argue, though, that in Twitter's case, you're technically correct but functionally incorrect regarding the actions of any one editor representing the site/foundation. The site itself is a wiki and is only so monolithic as any groupthink/hivemind that goes on here, but the Twitter account, which may be the only exposure some people have to RW, is monolithic by nature, made even more so by the fact that it's managed by one person. And it claims to represent the site (account name is RationalWiki, not RationalMediaFoundation). You have a nuanced grasp of this, but your average Twitter user may not. As you said, it's a common misunderstanding. B) talk 19:19, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
@B) Yeah, I see what you mean (though, Gerard isn't "speaking for you"). My only point is that, as the editors that make up the entire site and thus in unison decide on its direction, we're not obligated to give a rat's ass about the Twitter account. We're happy Gerard is even bothering to run it, afaik. And my point is, by extension, that there's nothing about our Twitter account in the community standards. Nothing as pertaining to the foundation. It's just an account that DG happens to have the keys to, and we're glad it's not taken by someone unrelated to the site and used to only tweet fugly drawings of Sonic or something. But one cannot cite the Twitter and pretend to be discussing anything but the actions of David Gerard. (And I'm saying this, not to you, but to the ethereal forces that would conspire to whine at RW). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:39, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
"One cannot cite the Twitter and pretend to be discussing anything but the actions of David Gerard" is true for editors here. It is almost certainly not true for anyone else. The account even links straight here. It only has some 4000 followers, and I'm obviously happy it's not taken by someone else. But as an editor with a vested interest in the site's mission, I do give a rat's ass about a social media platform that claims to work in the site's interests. Your argument appears to be "You don't have to care, there's nothing in the rule book that says it's not allowed, and you should be happy it's not worse", which is disappointing. But I'll drop this here. B) talk 20:14, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Well, I'm not debating that. It's not that I don't care. I'm just trying to deflate the Aneris-driven concept that if DG tweets something bad on the RW Twitter, that's proof we all endorse it and he speaks for us, and if we don't concede to that then "everyone here will [be held accountable]" (by some unnamed entity), including you and me and the kid who just signed up for an account. And that's truly disappointing to read. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I understand that, then, and yes, it's BS to assume everyone here shares any opinion that gets tweeted. I don't really care what Aneris or "unnamed entities" may or may not think editors here believe, though. My concern is what the public at large thinks editors here believe, and it's not a stretch to say the Twitter account may be taken at its word, regardless of that being BS reasoning. I'm not sure what Aneris means by "held accountable", but if he means there are consequences to the detriment of the wiki's stated goals when DG tweets something bad, then I've got to say I agree with him. A rogue Twitter account causing harm to what we're trying to do here would be truly disappointing, especially if it's preventable. B) talk 20:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not saying bad tweets aren't bad. Bad tweets are per definition bad. I'm saying; don't accuse me of being a literal cultist over Gerard's tweets, like me and him are joined at the hip or something. That's just ????-type reasoning. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't think I accused you of anything, but I apologize if I did inadvertently; I don't doubt you, your honesty, or your intentions in defending Gerard or the Twitter account. I only intended to voice a concern. B) talk 22:24, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
No, no, dude... Again; I'm trying to say I'm not talking directly to you. You have to read my replies in the context of whether or not Aneris has been reasoning in terms of cults and cultists. CTRL+F the word "cult". All will be revealed, my son. Th hug.gif Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

[edit] FCP weighs in

Legit question: I think the RW Twitter account would be better suited if it just posted "article of the day" or "article proposed for gold: help us out" every day, rather than being a "real" Twitter user. Currently, DG runs the account as (essentially) a real Twitter user, who re-tweets things, argues in the comments, and really hates Bitcoin. (Also, FWIW: it's not very hard to set up Twitter bots. I have a handy list of vapid responses for automatic response, should we need them.) Is Twitter important enough to try and do something like this? oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 22:16, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I like that idea. I've never written a bot before but I know how to code and can look into it, if a board member doesn't beat me to it and others are on board. B) talk 22:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree. The official Twitter account should promote random articles (among our fun and worthwhile articles, that is), etc. It's best if it wasn't operated by any one user who "is a human" on it. Just my two cents. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
For those who care about the code side, here's a useful compilation of tutorials: https://botwiki.org/tutorials/twitterbots/
To put in perspective how easy it is to make a Twitter bot in Python, check this: http://blog.mollywhite.net/twitter-bots-pt2/ oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 03:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Fuzzy. If I can find some time in the next few weeks I'll spin one up. B) talk 18:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
For all intents and purposes the RW twitter account has always been the mouthpiece of DG, and this isn't a good thing. It's a much better idea to have it drive people to the actual RW.
Aneris, look through the PZ MYers talk-page archive and you will see there is plenty of evidence that PZ is not well loved here. The article is a bit shit (noted on the talk-page) but I guess no-one has gotten around to fixing it. Since he has faded into obscurity now, I doubt it will ever capture anyone's interest long enough to get fixed. 139.130.16.222 (talk) 08:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
The fact is that the PZ Myers page is in dire need of help. It's not a great article, and it's rather one-sided on some issues. It could use a rewrite for several reasons. The problem is, who is going to bother? As much as a mess the PZ page is when I open it, I open it once every 6 months. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

In my professional opinion as a trained naturopathic social media and left boot manufacturer I posit that Twitter is crappy marketing for most folks/products that don't already have a profile via other legacy mainstream media. Methinks ignore Twitter and it will slowly dissapear. Maybe not so slowly. If the discussion is about what things would be good for rw to increase interaction awareness I'd say just keep on keeping on Gadzooks (talk) 16:59, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] DG weighs in

Fuzzy's ideas are bad and will result in a bad Twitter; bots are how to have a boring Twitter without followers. (I note also I said to Fuzzy "hey we need help on the official FB page" and he demurred for lack of time.) There's a Board discussion on at present involving Aneris' continued attempts to use the wiki as platform for defamation, and if indeed he shouldn't be hellbanned like Brxbrx was for doing the exact same thing and several days of the Bar oversighted. If Aneris is complaining about the Twitter that means it's probably good. Board members, do come to the email discussion - David Gerard (talk) 12:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Our Twitter only has 4,233 followers. I think I agree with Gadzooks in that it wouldn't be the worst thing if Twitter died, but in the meantime a Twitterbot posting articles of the day better serves the mission than running it as if it were a personal account. "It's fine cause Aneris thinks it's bad" is opposition fallacy and a non-sequitur, and what the board decides to do about Aneris is an entirely separate issue. B) talk 21:37, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Our Twitter has 1000 or so more followers than it did when I started running it. The official Facebook's gone from 3000 to 5955 as of today. Since you're raising that metric.
Pray tell, what is the actual problem? You're repeatedly stating general concerns but none specific - David Gerard (talk) 23:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
My point was that, in terms of followers, there is a lot of room for improvement and not a lot of room for harm. 4000-odd isn't a huge number. For reference, CP has ~9000, ED has ~10000, WP has 300k+. I have no problems with the majority of what you post. It's that it doesn't make sense for you to run an entire wiki's Twitter account as an outlet for your own point of view, no matter how much your own views overlap with those of other editors here. The account should be a promotional tool for the wiki itself, mainly posting links to articles. Fuzzy's objections below just about cover it. B) talk 01:15, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

@DG: I, for one, am not unhappy with how you've run the Twitter (pls don't get overdefensive). My sole objections are that (1) you sometimes insert your personal views into our Twitter, which makes it seem as if RW as a whole supports those views [which, given you, is often true] and (2) it doesn't do enough to promote RationalWiki articles, as opposed to RationalWiki viewpoints. That's why I suggested the automated article-list. Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 23:18, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

You'll excuse me if I have short patience with repeated and yet vague objections - David Gerard (talk) 23:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Np. Do you feel (1) and (2) are too vague? HairyFelineTuber (talk/stalk) 23:46, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
There's a generalised assumption riding along in there - David Gerard (talk) 01:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Which assumption is that? B) talk 01:33, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Btw total respect DG for taking on a task. I'm not sure that there 'is' an answer on how to do social media in an empirical way that's not slightly delusional/participating in flawed logic promoted by unicorn riding cyber shmucks...oops rant. I wonder if we can only see the right way in hindsight, so go forth brave DG and win/fail to victory because you might be right :) we salute the juggers, and them what tries to roll that rock up that hill Gadzooks (talk) 02:58, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah. Like I said above, DG, I'm glad you have the account keys, and you've run the account consistently well. My qualms aren't with you. They only address the fact that a single person runs the Twitter as if it were a personal account; I think there are better options, and a couple other editors/board members agree. What are your thoughts? All the best. B) talk 20:23, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

From what I've seen of the RW Twitter account I think it's pretty good. My only suggestion is more of a two-way relationship between the Twitter account & WIGO pages: i.e. if you pick up a good article/blog via Twitter & it's not already a WIGO entry, add it to the relevant WIGO page, & vice-versa if anything particularly good/popular is shared on WIGO, share it on Twitter too. If there's a need for more people to be involved, I'd be happy to help out when I can & I have professional experience of managing an organisation's social media accounts. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I do skim WIGO for good/popular suggestions I think will play well on Twitter. One thing that does need help (and as I note, I asked Fuzzy directly "help out here" and he doesn't have time for that, just time to get very upset about nonspecific claims about problems with the Twitter that he still can't actually formulate into words) is the official Facebook page. So ping me your Facebook name and I'll add you as someone who can post to that - David Gerard (talk) 23:04, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'm keeping RW stuff at arm's length from my real life identity, so I will create a Weaseloid FB account shortly & let you know. WèàšèìòìďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:56, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
If you post it shows as "from RationalWiki" - only other page editors or admins can see who posted it - David Gerard (talk) 09:07, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Nevertheless I would prefer not to associate my regular Facebook account with it at all. I've created a new one here & liked the RW page so you should be able to make me an admin. WèàšèìòìďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
I think you need to like the page, it's not letting me add you - David Gerard (talk) 09:17, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
I already did. I've now unliked & reliked it so please try again. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 09:38, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Added! I suggest keeping posting to no more often than every six hours ... seems to please The Algorithm™ - David Gerard (talk) 10:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Passive aggression

This discussion was moved here from User talk:FuzzyCatPotato.

"We" appears to be you and Aneris cheerleader attack socks. You're proxying for Aneris at this stage. If you have a specific objection, make it. If you don't, cut this bullshit - David Gerard (talk) 15:35, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

David, step back, breathe. That thread is about RW's Twitter, no more. As a site-centric discussion, it merits more attention than currently given (not least because you have yet to respond substantively to the concerns noted). Aneris is hardly a part of it -- his posts have been removed, and his concerns are dissimilar to my concerns (and the concerns of others in the thread). Your concerns about quote "Aneris cheerleader attack socks" unquote are frankly conspiratorial. FuzzyCatPotato of the Nail-biting Flagellas (talk/stalk) 16:09, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
If you want an answer, you have to ask a question. State your claim - David Gerard (talk) 17:07, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Good to know RBP and I come across as Aneris cheerleader attack socks, whatever that means. What is unclear about the points above? They've been stated repeatedly, and you've not responded to them, at all, beyond asking for "specific objections" and saying there's a "generalised assumption" somewhere. I even asked what that assumption was in the hope that we could, I don't know, discuss it, but you still haven't responded. Again, this is not an attack on you or the way you have been running the Twitter. It's a conversation about how to run the Twitter going forward. B) talk 14:23, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
You claim there's a problem. Detail the problem, with examples. I've only asked repeatedly. - David Gerard (talk) 22:44, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

David, you have not asked for examples. You have asked for specific claims. We have provided them. We don't understand your hostility. Now you ask for examples. Let me provide just one:

Does this make it clear why I think that @RationalWiki is not, in fact, about boosting RationalWiki.org? oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 01:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, well done, you've stated a claim. I'll add more article links. Were there any other specific claims?
My point remains: your ideas are mostly terrible, and you combine boundless energy with bad ideas. "Let's just have a bot posting RW links!" In my practiced opinion this is how to lose all the followers, and achieve the opposite of what it's achieved so far. I'm frankly baffled that you think this would work in any manner and constitute engaging with humans, a thing notoriously not susceptible to automation.
If you want me to think I should take your ideas on social media seriously in any manner, you need to provide any fucking evidence they are any good. So, I suggest you "like" the official FB page so I can add you as an editor, then you can show that your posts get the views. You know, the actual "so get up off your arse" bit I keep telling you to do. It's as if you literally don't want to risk testing your ability to interact with the public. You're a board member, please show you can do fine on the official channel - David Gerard (talk) 09:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Just deleted my post here hoping for collegiate behaviour. Oops. My bad.Gadzooks (talk) 23:36, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] FYI

This discussion was moved here from User talk:FuzzyCatPotato.

I'm done with this bs. I won't keep rephrasing the same two sentences until some power-tripping mod decides he's ready to stop being obtuse. If we go forward with a bot, I'm still willing to write it. Let me know. B) talk 00:10, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I think he's still raw from the Aneris thing. Give it a week. (Hence why the sticky.) Fuzzy. Cat. Potato! (talk/stalk) 00:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Are you serious? Like David said, Twitterbots make for terrible Twitter accounts. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 01:06, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
David is being a problem right now. Whether bots are good or bad is irrelevant. Stop. FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 01:07, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Well, no, it's entirely relevant. You have come up with (a) literally the stupidest serious idea I've heard yet for something to do with an RW social media account (b) boundless enthusiasm and advocacy for it (c) a personal attack. The politician's syllogism does not apply here: just because you've come up with something to do does not mean it should be done. You and Bshaw have yet to show anything is actually broken - David Gerard (talk) 09:19, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
You've claimed I'm running @rationalwiki as a personal Twitter. That's a hell of an accusation, and I've lost count of how many times I've asked you to back it in any manner. Cite your evidence or fuck off - David Gerard (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
For the last time, I've not accused you of anything. I've stated the neutral observation that you run @rationalwiki much like a personal Twitter account; retweeting other personal Twitter accounts, offering opinionated commentary on news articles, etc. I stated my concerns about this with civility, said I thought you'd done quite well running the account up to this point, and asked for your feedback. Regardless of whether you think a bot is a stupid idea, this could have been a quick and easy conversation. "The moderators' job is... to keep the vitriol in our discourse to appropriate levels." Bravo. B) talk 23:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] What exactly did user Aneris do to get himself banned?

He seemed, you know, what we call 'rational'. But people are unpredictable aren't they? Gewgtweg (talk) 13:38, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The reasons behind Aneris' ban had nothing to do with his personality or qualities. He was a human being, just like everyone else here. Not worthless, not perfect. But, again, that's all irrelevant. He got himself banned because of the content of some of his discussions on RW leading the site into a legal gray zone, and indeed potentially hot water. One of the objectives of the board is obviously to prevent the site from being sued out of existence. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:44, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I understand that but what piqued the interest of the gossiper and busybody in me was what exactly the content you refer to was. But I see this is obviously inconvenient to discuss. I don't want to put anybody in a difficult position so I'll leave it at that. Gewgtweg (talk) 13:38, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Trying repeatedly to use RW as a platform to call a living person a paedophile. You'd think "oh, that would be a really stupid and damaging thing to do, I'd better not do that" would be a pretty obvious and sensible thing not to do, but it appears it wasn't for him - David Gerard (talk) 14:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm new here but in my short while I hardly saw any positive contributions from Aneris (I'm sure there's some selection bias going on, but I honestly can't remember). I'm heavily biased on the topic, but much of his time seemed to be spent trying to turn any issue into a personal crusade against regressive feminism or w/e other social justice movement he didn't like. It wasn't just that he was annoying, but that he was consistently stubborn and accusatory in his style of arguing. He did provide citations for some of his claims, but they were often low quality and relied on broad stereotyping and he consistently refused to acknowledge criticism or refutation. I know Hanlon's Razor probably applies here, but a lot of his arguments seemed to eventually devolve into disingenuous tu quoque psychoanalysis and accusations of bias or ignorance. His tendency to insistently repeat the same talking points (even when explicitly told to stop) wasn't really that big of a deal until he started with the accusations of paedophilia. I admit I could be way off with my judgement of him, but this is what I saw over the last few weeks.
Honestly, I'm legitimately worried about the possibility of ideological oppression on this site, and I really do want honest criticism of the zeitgeist here, but personally I'm relieved he's gone. MVHVTMV (talk) 16:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I was annoyed to shit with him, but I'm not really glad he's gone. What I wish had happened is A. He stopped accusing his ideological enemies of being pedophiles and B. He calmed down a bit in general. Thinking postmodernism is inferior to modernism is a pretty damned reasonable viewpoint. But, he... went too far, and he wouldn't stop with A. And he had to go. That's life. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 16:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Pretty damn reasonable to think postmodernism is inferior to modernism? Interesting. I'm not a postmodernist myself but would be happy to find out why you think this way. Give me the reasons and let's better continue this discussion on my talk page. For the record, nobody should be worried about 'ideological oppression' on this site. On the contrary, it's really quite liberal when it comes to free expression and perhaps excessively so as the example of Aneris illustrates. Gewgtweg (talk) 18:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Any skeptic worth his salt on this site should be sorry for the fact that a unique (though, repetitive) voice had to be removed, even — as it was — by virtue of that user's own actions. This is why the board bans people very rarely — only when their actions threaten to take away the entire site from all of us. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Unique AND repetitive? Interesting combination. I guess you, an old-timer here, know the guy better than I had the time to get to know him though folks were, I hear, surprised he went so far as to behave the way he behaved notwithstanding his previous known record of being quite vocal with his... let's just say his whining. I also guess you will know exactly why 'he didn't have much love for the site' as you put it. Was it, mind you, some alleged 'ideological oppression' of sorts? I invite you to inform me. Also, I invite you on my talk page to perhaps contribute your informed viewpoint on the post-modernist discussion there. Isn't Smerdis though the wiki's go-to person on the issue? Gewgtweg (talk) 15:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from DG's talkpage

This discussion was moved here from User talk:David Gerard.

I admit, I'm a little nervous that Aneris was banned by a board vote rather than by the mob. Does that regularly happen? Oh, and should we worry about potential retaliation? I know Smerdis and Aneris were friends, and goat knows how many others would come out of the woodwork. I don't disagree with Aneris being banned, I'm just concerned with how he was banned and the potential fallout. Thanks, RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The only action the board takes these days is to ban people; which was pretty much the only thing they were not meant to do when we set it up. Pathetic. 202.89.161.226 4:30, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
BoN, take in the coop if you don't like it instead of whining here about it.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 04:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
@Ronin: Brxbrx was banned by the board for a similar issue about Kevin Martin; there is precedent. It happens very rarely. Retaliation is possible, but that's independent of Aneris' actions. Fuzzy. Cat. Potato! (talk/stalk) 04:51, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
@FCP: OK, good. Less worried about the board now. Still, I thought I should mention the possibility of retaliation to DG, regardless of whether or not it is connected with Aneris' comments. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:56, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
A reminder that David Gerard can take back his ban as a precaution in the case of an unhappy mob.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 05:03, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Frankly, most people didn't like Aneris. (Smerdis, an exception, has been here since 2013. Lord Aeonian, another, has accepted the ideological biases of RationalWiki.) There may not be much retaliation -- or acknowledgement -- at all. For me, that's also a concern, because it indicates that RationalWiki is ideologically homogenous. Herr FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 05:15, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Given my pessimistic/cynical nature, I expected one of those two to retaliate. But you're right. Hell, I kind of agreed with Aneris on some issues, and I thought he was an asshole. Perhaps Smerdis and Aeonian will do nothing. The homogeneous part is kind of a problem, I agree. I think Nobs and Aeonian are our resident devil's advocates at this point. Maybe we should start a recruiting drive in some other parts of the internet? RoninMacbeth (talk) 05:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think we could drag a net evenly enough to merit any sort of active recruiting. I do agree that we could use more diversity of opinion, though. Not sure there's a solution besides not treating dissenters like living shit (hard not to be guilty of this - I definitely am). To quote RBP, "less splitting[wp] and more Web Love." B) talk 23:02, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif Also, the diversity of opinion — reflected just as much in the "passing of the old guard" as in the current mob's take on some of the older articles — is one of the things we should be most proud of on this site. Nurture it. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 23:06, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
If anyone expects me to 'retaliate' or start editing disruptively because Aneris was banned, then I somehow have made a poor impression without intending to do that. I will miss Aneris because I appreciated his take on things, even if he could be a bit of a bore on his favorite subjects. Not nearly as bad as a vegan, though. And I'm not going to start tossing around allegations of sexual misconduct against anybody, because I tend to be at least initially skeptical of such claims generally, and find them a cheap way to generate moral outrage, which never improves anything. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 04:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

There's a fine line between "ginger" and "persistently being a huge asshole" that Aneris wasn't quite clear on. You might think that "don't persistently use the wiki as a platform to try to make out living people are paedophiles" was a simple and obvious rule that anyone could see was a good idea and would have no problems following, but it turns out ...

And fundamentally, if you look at Aneris and think "am I next?" then you could always not use the wiki as a platform to do that. YMMV, but I expect it'll be not so difficult - David Gerard (talk) 08:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

For all this talk of "retaliation", let's not forget that the action was taken not out of spite towards any individual editor, but because there was content repeatedly submitted to the wiki that itself risked generating a legal retaliation. The action of the board was taken — after repeated warnings — in order to prevent retaliation, and that stands even in the face of people who have nothing better to do deciding to mess with the site. The theory is simple — there's a net loss, ceteris paribus, to the entire site being sued out of existence. Anyone who gives a damn about the site or the community would adapt their actions to that reasoning. Again; anyone who cares if the site tanked more than they cared about finding their eleventh outlet to crusade on. It's not a question of being right or wrong. It's a question of putting up the site itself as collateral or not. We're under the impression that that is a terrible fucking idea to do, and that regardless of which goals we're trying to achieve here, all of them are defeated if the site itself is sued to oblivion. Never mind if so, due to the actions of a user who hardly had much sympathy for the site itself. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 18:03, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

How, exactly, are the mythical Aneris supporters supposed to "retaliate?" This isn't Jordan lol Lord Aeonian (talk) 03:02, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Another poor decision from the board, under the guise of preventing RW from being sued. Everyone knows Aneris was banned for ideological reasons. Well done to the dissenting board member who is the evidently the only member who takes the pledge to encourage those who disagree with us to register and engage in constructive dialogue.
At least with Brx there was actually the risk of being sued, and professional legal advice was sought. This instance is clearly just a case of DG trying to stifle discussion of a particularly uncomfortable topic for him and his friends; and a weak, compliant board. 139.130.16.222 (talk) 05:38, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
You literally don't know what you're talking about - David Gerard (talk) 11:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Sure David, some of us remember your actions on TOW and why your rights were stripped there. I may not know as much about trying to sue wikis as you, given your history, but I do know there was no danger in this case. You simply took the chance to ban a member who was unpopular here, then ran to twitter to gloat about it. Very seemly behavior from an allegedly senior member of the board. 202.89.161.226 (talk) 11:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
The 1/5 was an abstention, not someone valiantly standing up for the "free speech" to commit wanton libel. I need to remind you that my first pass at this was trying to get a mod to warn him "Don't do this particular thing" which was followed up with doing more of that thing to prove he was right. I've emailed Aneris and let him know that if he can leave his outside quarrels at the door, I'd personally appeal his ban to the board. What you're missing is what Aneris did is serious. It doesn't matter how liked or disliked he is, throwing around accusations of pedophilia is incredibly inappropriate. BoN, you can think as little as you want of David, but I instigated the claim, and I instigated the request for a ban, so if you want to blame someone, blame me. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:04, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I essentially hold Ikanreed's position. Herr FüzzyCätPötätö (talk/stalk) 20:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Allow me to express the opinion that I think very little of the moral ideal of unchecked freedom of opinion. Of course, freedom of opinion exists in social reality because continuous diversity of opinion also exists. But we're not supposed to accommodate every 'opinion' here in this space as well. Of course this site is biased. In social reality, as in nature, 'birds of a feather flock together'. Each of us might well be more or less different just as birds of the same family might differ somewhat in their features. But if you belong to a different species, then we are natural enemies and have nothing to speak about.
We should distinguish between constructive, good-willed proposals and suggestions as to how to enrich the content and quality of our site but we cannot 'enrich' it indefinitely without allowing this 'richness' to be plundered and spoiled. Go express your alt-right views or your ego elsewhere. If you want to come here to indulge your self-pitiful feelings of martyrdom and suppression and prove how unique and special you are then I must make it clear to you that if I were in charge, would openly and happily boot you at will rather than inconvenience my peace of mind and that of the honorable editors with cleaning up your apostolic poop. Go and indulge your wonderful, revolutionary, cutting-edge views with those that share them. Our job here should be abundantly clear: to relentlessly, mercilessly, snarkily, sardonically and sadistically annihilate superstition (to put it shrilly, gutturally and hoarsely (Ausrotten!). Skepticism, relativism and nihilism were never seriously champions of the idealistic silliness of 'free expression'. They are the worldviews of constant and constant insurrection against human error and human idiocy from ALL directions. Gewgtweg (talk) 20:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

You guys never answered me. How did you think Aneris supporters would "retaliate?" How does one "retaliate" to a banning of someone from a wiki? Lord Aeonian (talk) 02:10, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Trolling, vandalism, sockpuppetry. That's what I thought might happen. Like I said, I'm very pessimistic. You're probably right, there won't be a "retaliation" as I said. Sorry if I was too panicky. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:51, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Like a bat outta moon

I think the new James Corbett article revisions are great though ex-FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds[wp] is likely Corbett's most frequent guest and they pretty much agree on everything but she was omitted. I commented at further length on his talk page but think it's worth bringing this idea here. (Full disclosure: For what it's worth, as with Corbett, these people are my faves and rarely disagree with their ideas. I also really like Rational Wiki. Why not have both?) You may also wish these folks to get their goat on:

  • Sibel Edmonds and her Boiling Frogs Post and growing NewsBud alt-media news network
  • Lionel (Lionel[wp]) who often featured on RT and elsewhere
  • Richard D. Wolff (Richard D. Wolff[wp]). Marxist emeritus economics Professor Wolff frequently makes appearances and tours while his radio shows are growing rapidly in popularity since the 2008 crash and with the now worse crash looming. (FYI: Marxism, as defined by Wolff, a freakin rare Marxist economics professor, is the critical analysis of the pros and cons of capitalism. Too many people equate Marxism with socialism, communism, voluntaryism, agorism, anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-veganism... None of these ideas are the same, or even close.) Similarly I also like Yanis Varoufakis (Yanis Varoufakis[wp]), Greek ex-finance minister who would not sell out his people to the EU banksters so they fired him.

Like it or lump it - take this with a grain of my avowed fanboy salt. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 07:52, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

It's cool, nothing wrong with having a different opinion, man. And thank you, for the list of People. But instead of doing an Article on Sibel Edmonds herself i'd rather have it to be about her site Newsbud. I don't know if Lionel himself warrant an Article on his own considering that he seems not influental nor unique enough. I could be wrong tough... --Benaresh (talk) 13:51, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
While Lionel is a character, you're probably correct. His Wikipedia page is basically his CV with extras, and there may not be much else to add other than to cover his views that Wikipedia won't allow (ie, 9-11 skeptic, Pizzagate, etc).
I agree Sibel Edmonds recent work is worth notice, but it's worth noting that she was an ex-FBI whistleblower about 9-11. That alone is noteworthy, perhaps not for RationalWiki, but in general. Especially when so many people who trust the "official account" say "If 9-11 was all a conspiracy then why doesn't anyone say anything?" Many have. And many have suffered for it. Anthrax threats and murders, "suicides", careers axed, bankrupting lawsuits, thrown in Carswell military prison for years, threatened with chemical lobotomy, etc. Anyway, she got through, wrote a couple books and BFP and NewsBud. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 13:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
You can post suggestions on RationalWiki:To do list, along with why you think they're important, summaries or descriptions, good sources, or general rambling. People do occasionally look at it and create articles. And ideas will be visible for longer there than here. Annquin (talk) 21:00, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
You're right. I didn't think about that. I may have learned about the todo list when I first joined but never really thought about it, nor often make suggestions like this. I'm just excited about the new JC article. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 13:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Crap the Problem of going with the flow! You are right, this wasn't the best place for that.I have only 12 Tabs open so i can take a look on what i can do to contribute... --Benaresh (talk) 21:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand.
I've already made the mistake of posting this section here. I don't want to make another mistake, so I'll ask first: Is it okay if I cut/past this section on the RationalWiki:To do list? ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 13:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Speaking of James Corbett

You guys should head over to the James Corbett article. It's rather whitewashy, currently. It needs a skeptical eye. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Puns

Hello everyone, not long ago, I told FuzzyCatPotato my failed and unsatisfactory escapade for puns on Yahoo answers. FCP then noted that people on RationalWiki may have some spare puns that they could unleash. If you know any puns, please, be my guest and write it down- come, we all know we love puns :D. ikanreed has already started.--WMS (talk) 21:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

There was a webcomic I used to read, but got fed up with, that was full of puns. Many of them were quite elaborate. Plus if I remember right it sort of predicted Steve Irwin's death - try to explain that with your so called science. 2.126.236.207 (talk) 22:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you mean by "try to explain that with your so called science" but I feel like you're trying to put down some sort of mystical agenda? I'm sorry if I'm inferring, what you wrote, wrong but even if it "sort of predicted Steve Irwin's death" I'm sure there's a logical explanation (which would probably boil down to coinceedences) for the alleged prediction.

Well coming up with pun's when lurking on RW is kind of PUNishing don' you think? And considering this is the Goat to Source for critical thinking, can't find this request for humour quite reich. (I am too tired atm for better puns i am afraid.)--Benaresh (talk) 22:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Hahaha, well, as long as there are puns I'm happy. Thanks for contributing.--WMS (talk) 22:39, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Hey we all could use a laugh from time to time, eh? --Benaresh (talk) 12:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Why, then, do we speak of puns? A form of "humor" crafted by twisted versions of mankind from a mirror universe who are simply unable to understand and empathize with us Earth Prime folks. They couldn't recognize the difference between laughter and agony, and so, to bring us the vague concept of "joy" they understand, the went deep beneath the earth and hammered upon words making torturing homonyms into their crude reflections of jokes that we, in our ignorance, call puns. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 16:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
All hail the pun originators!--WMS (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I went to the zoo recently. I thought they'd have loads of different animals from around the world, but they only had a bunch of empty cages & one small, long-haired Chinese dog. It was a Shih Tzu. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Hahaha, nice on Weaseloid!--WMS (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Speaking of Yahoo Answers

How is babby formed, after all? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Something confusing about Fundie schools

Why is it that some will not allow non-Christians to enter yet for others it is perfectly fine to enter? By enter I mean enroll. For those who do not allow non-Christians, did they not stop to think they could potentially convert potential students by teaching them about their beliefs.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:33, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

"did they not stop to think"? I would remind you that we're talking about fundie schools here. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 00:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Okay, I had a moment of stupidity. Of course they don't think at all! Maybe they should take a minute and actually think but that won't happen.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:54, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
To take your question a bit more seriously, Christian schools can be open to non-Christians for a variety of reasons, like the potential for conversion, it giving them the appearance of tolerance and openness towards others, a genuine interest in cross-religious/cross-cultural dialogue or simply them not bothering to put students through a religious litmus test. Some schools care about some of the former reasons, some don't. Religious people, like any other people, can vary greatly in the things they care about. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 01:14, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
And tuition fees. It's great to get people to pay you to proselytize them. nobs 07:03, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] What is the biggest problem Rationalwiki faces?

Either now or in the foreseeable future? Worzelpete (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Why d'you ask? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 01:36, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Curiosidad, nada mas. ¿Xq? Worzelpete (talk) 01:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The rise in conspiracy theories being propagated by Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit along with a President who not only makes baseless claims, but also believes in them.Diogenes of Wilmington (talk) 03:18, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I know what would help whilst we contemplate our DOOM! A bit of Gordon Lightfoot! It's cheerful, folksy and DOOM! [1] Gadzooks (talk) 03:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The greatest problem is Jesus coming back and sending ya'll to hell. nobs 07:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I was more referring to problems inherent to the site and the community, rather than what is happening in the world at large. But that is also una pregunta interesante. Worzelpete (talk) 03:34, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Can't help with that i am kinda fresh. But the Problem i see that Trump already Emboldens Alt-righters. Online comments of recent events ( Pizzagate incident in the News, or the Muslim woman shoved down a flight of Stairs.) Gets flooded with comments that range for apologetica to rabid mouthfrothing bile. I currently use Cracked and Web.de Comments to learn about all possible fallacious arguments you can possible make. There is seemingly no escape to them on the INTERWEBS. It is even worse when a "Tranny"-bashing unpopular Opinion Puffin hits FP on Imgur. I browse imgur for funny Animals and stupid Jokes not a Circlejerk complaining about SJW. Rant over --Benaresh (talk) 12:42, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The biggest problem rationalwiki faces is one of two things:

  1. Making a wiki will never eradicate woo, pseudoscience, and authoritarianism from humanity, and we all are spinning our wheels and preaching to the choir in the vain hope of making a small amount of difference in the world, ultimately achieving nothing.
  2. We will be replaced as is the life cycle of websites. Communities come and go, roles shift and change, and eventually, this website, through natural processes, aided by both the community and the leadership, will eventually hit a point of no return and decay into a relic a la citizendium.

That's my take. Both kinda long view problems, and both defraying all responsibility away from myself and other editors by making things into cultural forces with an external locus of control, but still what I think, in spite of that. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 16:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I think one of the biggest problems for RW is just gaining exposure. I really wish that I had heard about RW a loot sooner than I did. I fucking love this page and i know there are many others out there who would! TheGrandmother (talk) 19:27, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

in reply to users @Benaresh, TheGrandmother, Worzelpete, and Gadzooks:, this user asserts the fact that this user wrote an essay [the point of view of self regarding the matter], this user is requesting an admin rename the essay to "the problems of rationalwiki" so that it becomes an essay compilation where all users can post their opinions.FAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) 14:01, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Sorry Buddy but your link seems to be the not working type.--Benaresh (talk) 15:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Clearly, it's the lack of goat. It needs moar! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Demonic Possession- Playing the Devil's Advocate (I know there is irony in this sentence)

Okay, I know it is near universal on the wiki that Demonic Possession is considered bullshit but I will toss this out here. How do we not know that a demon from another universe (assuming the Multiverse Theory holds true, I know it has not been confirmed by physics (yet)) could not enter someone and alter somebody's brain chemistry to make it look like there is just a regular neurological disorder. To the religious nuts that may be lurking on the wiki- don't cherry pick what I said as this hypothesis (keyword- HYPOTHESIS) has not been proven by physics and chances are it may never be confirmed (Citing Gödel's incompleteness theorems (Okay, this might not be the right thing to put (I am terrible at math and this might not apply)). I will repeat that this is a hypothesis (a tentative explanation with no proof yet)that has NOT been proven by physics.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The short answer: 1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence 2. Occam's razor 3. Unless your hypothesis is testable, it is not a hypothesis and not worth talking about. Bongolian (talk) 04:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
What you suggest here seems to be a very messy version of the genius malignus[wp]. Keep in mind that the purpose of the concept of an "evil demon" is not that there's actually any reason whatsoever to believe it exists or is real — the point is to demonstrate a virtue of systematic doubt[wp]. To postulate what you suggest here as anything but an exercise in what Bongolian links above is to misunderstand the very concept itself. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:32, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Could increasing automation and mechanisation be the cause of THAT conflict between humans and AI?

On Monday, 5 December 2016, Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England revealed himself to be socialist by endorsing the redistribution of wealth. See video.

Haha.

Seriously though, he said, in a wide-ranging speech, "every technological revolution mercilessly destroys jobs well before the new ones emerge". His speech brought back this idea, (I'll admit, not an original one), that has been swirling around in my head for a while now. I envisage a future conflict between humans and machines caused by something as simple, yet as complex, as blue-collar jobs. I which envisage a future where robots, as they are beginning to, replace the blue-collar worker, thus causing a schism between the two, much like the schism between native blue-collar workers and outsiders "who come in and do the work for cheap" (undercutting wages). Inevitably, there will be a backlash against the robots, much like there has been against immigrant blue-collar labourers. I imagine blue-collar workers attacking robots - criminal damage, vandalism, etc. All it would take in response to this is for corporations to either create robots to defend other robots (creating a further schism between the security workforce and robots), or programme robots to defend themselves, which will require some sort of central or individual AI and...Armageddon. I'm just spit-balling here, but think about it: self-service, mechanized car-manufacturing factories, Amazon delivering via drones, hell, Amazon just launched an operation with no human workforce. Point is, if anything leads to a conflict between machines and humans, it's likely to be economics and labour (both of which are inexorably linked), and humans are likely to be the instigators. And the tragic thing is, it's inevitable. You can hate free trade, free market, globalism, supply and demand all you want, but they are, in their own way, forces of nature. This isn't to say, however, that there is no solution, and simple as it may sound, the solution is this: redistribution of wealth - aka socialism--Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Instead of Robots vs. Humans id rather go with Pro Tech vs. Luddites for the lack of a better Label. It seems to be all but certain that Labour itself is on the way out, in all walks of life. Post Work Society? idk that whole buisness isn't looking very clear to me yet, but it seems that we have seen the consequences of the increasing automatisation, all around the World, in the form of rising unemployment. So it isn't really a us vs. machines and more of a wtf are we humans supposed to do now? --Benaresh (talk) 12:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. @Levi, redistribution of wealth as a possible solution is where I think you're right, as is growing unrest as automation takes over more and more jobs. And it's probably not just going to be blue-collar workers. I'd be willing to bet AI will start writing code soon, putting developers out of business; AI will be a better, more precise surgeon than a human hand (though other medical positions may take a lot longer to go); really, I think computers are coming for all the jobs, except for some precious few for which human emotions/interpretations are strictly necessary. This is all just assuming better and better weak AI, too; strong AI would be earthshaking, much more quickly. Like Benaresh, I'm a lot more skeptical of any human-machine direct conflict like you describe, though, at least in terms of Hollywood "robots vs. us" scenarios. I think humans fighting humans is much more likely. B) talk 14:41, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The Swiss voted over 76% against the introduction of a Guaranteed Basic Income in a referendum earlier this year.

The effect of continued job losses due to robots and automated production was one of the primary issues cited during the debates. The mere fact that the idea, which could have seen every adult Swiss citizen recieve a tax free monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs($2,555 ; £1755 at that time), even made it as far as a public vote should probably be regarded as a sign of progress. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060 not a real jedidamn right i'm paranoid 17:33, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Right!THAT was on the back of my mind when i was writing my comment. That referendum was the Reason i read up on the whole Post-work discussion in Germany, that was started thanks to the Swiss. And yet i alomst forgot about that. o_O --Benaresh (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] forum vs saloon bar

this user enquires the reason for maintaining the saloon bar when rationalwiki possesses a seperate forum section on-site.FAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) 13:03, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

oh Hey ! So you are the Guy who talks about himself in the 3rd Person huh? Well i think a Saloon sounds nicer than a Forum. I feel like a Pleb when i have to go to the Forum in fact soemthing funny happened on the way to the Forum --Benaresh (talk) 13:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Poll- What is your favorite branch of science?

My vote goes for Biology--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Necromancy. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I said SCIENCE, not pseudoscience--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:50, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure magic doesn't even count as pseudoscience. It doesn't cloak itself in the language and styles of science. You don't have to so strenuously object to a joke. As for me, my answer is physics. Oscillating bodies. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Marine gastronomy. €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 17:53, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Obviously theology :p No, seriously my favotie sciences are psychiatry, sociology, and psychology.Diacelium (talk) 18:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I overreacted here--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:12, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


I should change my original vote, I say Biomedical Sciences (medical microbiology, Immunology, Physiology, Pharmacology and so on)--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I made it a poll on pointless polls. Diacelium (talk) 18:37, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Physics is where it's at. If Necromancy were a working true science i'd study the Shit out of it tbh.--Benaresh (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
If Parapsychology was actual science I would study it. I find the idea of the paranormal interesting.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:06, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The University of Edinburgh, a highly-regarded Russell Group university ranked 27th in the world by THE, has a Parapsychology research unit (someone gave them a lot of money to set it up). Annquin (talk) 12:27, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Math, specifically information theory and formal systems. B) talk 19:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I had an introductory course to ethnic studies and sociology and I loved it. Ɀexcoiler Кingbolt Noooooooo! Look! Up there! 02:38, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Exobiology, martyrology, oenology, scatology, and psychoceramics. Annquin (talk) 12:31, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Proctology[wp], hands down. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:33, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] A fundie school that could make a (potentially) good RW article

I was thinking of adding the Seventh Day Adventist school known as Andrews University in Michigan. They are Young Earth Creationist and Homophobic yet considered a good school. Thoughts and opinions? Link- https://www.andrews.edu/ --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Secondary Idea

A second idea I had is have a list of Christian colleges and universities and their stance on evolution/age of the Earth.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:03, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I personally like to hear more about how a school like that works, or in the infamously inspiring words of Shia LeBouf: "DO IT! JUST DO IT!"--Benaresh (talk) 19:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I will go with my original idea about Andrews University then--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I would strongly recommend against creating another stub article for a college or university that simply parrots what's on their web site. RW already has a discussion on education in Seventh-day Adventism. This is where anything unique about Andrews should go, at least to start. Regards, Cosmikdebris (talk) 19:41, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
How do I delete a page, I just read this and I got started on it already. However it is not a stub per say but I can delete it. My bad, I didn't see this till after I actually created it.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 20:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Update- the page is deleted, I deleted it myself--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 20:05, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Why don't the democratic electors just suck it up?

Why don't the democratic electors just suck it up, and accept that their candidate lost because her campaign was terrible. (especially since those same electors were the ones who pushed hard for her nomination)'Legionwhat do you want from me 20:15, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Well, what does that mean? Who should they vote for at this point? WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:27, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
(EC)Did you get anything right in your post?
  1. No they're not the "same electors" who pushed for her nomination. They're typically allocated by state law, and the only thing they have in common is party affiliation and being delegates.
  2. No her campaign was not "terrible". You don't win the popular vote by several percent with a "terrible" campaign.
  3. Never "suck it up" and accept fascism. Never. Fucking. Again.
ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:33, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
  1. They're still members of the elite of the democratic party, which pushed for her nomination
  2. Her campaign was terrible, her campaign arrogantly believed that there was no way that she was going to lose to Trump, and barely campaigned in the states she needed to campaign most in (I.E the rust belt states).
  3. Saying that Trump's presidency is going to lead to "fascism" is extreme hyperbole, while it's absolutely going to be a shit 4-8 years it's not going to lead to the creation of a fascist state. It'll just be an even worse Bush presidency.'Legionwhat do you want from me 20:48, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
  1. "Oh they're vaguely similar to these other people you have to ignore reality to blame for her candidacy". Great. Okay. They are.
  2. Pointedly untrue.
  3. It's not going to lead to fascism, it was built on fascist ideologies. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:55, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
If the Trump campaign was built on Fascist ideologies, then that almost certainly means that it will lead to Fascism in some form (and I don't mean the bullshit Liberal Fascism crap). Ɀexcoiler Кingbolt Noooooooo! Look! Up there! 21:06, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

For fuck's sake. I thought the faithless electors issue was kind of an interesting development, but I guess apparently not, so I withdraw my comment. Have fun going over the same tired old ground. €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:12, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Aww come on! This is a touchy subject for a lot of People, i think you did a good thing brining it up. From the way it looked from here, Hillary lost due to a combination of Factors: Post Truth fake news, Bernie Sanders conspiracys(he endorsed her himself didn't he?)which cost her dem votes, her being Establishment (tying into The Bern and also not helping when people want change) and the Rust belt stuff. Hmm However i always find the poor working class angle lacking, how do you adress the Rustbelt Problems without lying? Your Jobs will never come back due to Demographic and Technological changes. (doesn't sell well does it?) It is impossible to deduct the reasons for this clusterfuck without the 20/20 offered by an Historian perspective...--Benaresh (talk) 22:25, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
It is the business of sovereign governments to control technological changes, and to forbid them if necessary. Technology must not be given the power to obsolete people's skills, make their jobs redundant, or disrupt human communities. If it threatens that, ban it. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 02:08, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
That's a very Trumpian, anti-free trade, protectionist statement. nobs 18:01, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
If it's the political right that wants to bring back nation states and make them powerful enough to control capital and tech, hooray for them. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 03:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Hillary lost to Trump for the same reasons she lost to Obama. There's a very wide swath of anti-globalizers in the Democratic party. As Secretary of State, Hillary thought her globe trotting on behalf of the Clinton Global Initiative made her look like a leader. The trouble is, those same high school educated idiots now know when they vote Democrat they're called "blue collar workers"; when they vote Republican they're called racist. If Trump delivers on his promises to address the economy, the Democrats and media cannot info the damage they've done to tnemselves. nobs 06:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

While I accept you're criticism of argument 1., as I was mostly rambling, and venting on that one, I still think that her campaign was terrible especially since you didn't offer anything to back up your statement that argument 2. was "pointedly untrue". Trump's presidency won't lead to full on fascism because not even the republicans in the senate would allow something so ludicrous, what is likely, however, is a hybrid style government like Russia.'Legionwhat do you want from me 02:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Smerdis. I have to disagree on that. The only time i know a Tech Ban worked was in Japan with Gunpowder. Considering the nasty Suprise when American Gunships showed up, id say that technology Supression has an nasty habit of biting your ass. In addition, due to Globalisation a tech ban has to be universal and i simply cant see that happen worldwide.
Bullshit. Should we have stopped electricity from becoming a thing because it'd have put the candlemakers out of work? Vaccines from becoming a thing because coffin makers would have gotten less work? Same thing with modern medicine? Your approach is so cowardly, no technological progress will ever happen and humanity will always be stuck with the same shitty problems forever. NewFrenchHotness (talk) 13:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@Legion That point about "won't lead to full on fascism because not even the republicans in the senate would allow something so ludicrous" the thing is People said they would "frame" Hitler with People that would keep him from Power (Spoiler Alert: didn't work) and the Rep do not seem to be against Trump anymore. Considering that People already defending his appointment of Goldman Sachs Personell with "If you want to stop a thief hire a thief" they`d possibly help him happily help him Turn America "Great" again. Anyway all this is speculation and i get the point that it wont be as bad as i think it would (I tend to be Paranoid after all). Let's all hope that the next 2-8 Years wont be a Catastrophe and that People prevent the worst from happen. After all it isn't like it is 1933.--Benaresh (talk) 09:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@ikanreed: given that the mainstream media, the fake news sites, and the polls have all been proven solidly wrong for the past 18 months, and that Hillary Clinton maybe is not the greasey-haired bull dike she's been portrayed as, isn't there a danger of proceeding on the assumption that what Trump has been portrayed as over the past 18 months is true, as well? All the evidence of his life's career suggests he is not a fascist. Meanwhile, the real Trump story slips away: his opportunism and manipulation of the birther movement; his collecting fired Generals from the Obama administration; he probably bought-off the Eagle Forum with donations to win the Schlafly's blessings, etc. With Trump, a real-estate developer, you are dealing with a visionary, a man who looks 20-30 years ahead before committing himself, his money, or other people's money. Visionaries are a rare thing among Presidents. nobs 16:08, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@nobs But what is his mission? I can believe that he was using right-wing Talkpoints to derail the GOP in his favor, but long term planning? He is barely able to hold a conversation and dont say: "well all part of his plan." I dont build a House on Sand if i have a long term goal, and sounding like an imbecile is building your whole Presidency on Sand... unless His plan is to discredit not only Americas current Political System but maybe he is also holding up the Mirror to all of us like Till Eulenspiegel? Nah This whole Buisness is that kind of fucked that those People lost the Election too. --Benaresh (talk) 16:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
The speculation over who will be Secretary of State masks the underlying activity going on now, the formulation of a coherent foreign policy. He's announced two incompatible (in the long term) goals: destruction of ISIS, and reformulation of the Iran nuke deal. Which side does the US come down on, the Putin-Assad-Iranian axis, or the ISIS-Saudi alliance? Romney stands for the strong anti-Putin push, whereas Bolton offers a mid-course negotiated approach more in keeping with Trump's own flexibility and reputation as a negotiator (all the other candidates are 'yes men' who do what they are told by the White House, which is increasingly dominated by the military). Trump needs a non-mlitary policymaker in that job, not an errand boy like Corker or others. Romney may be too confrontational at a time the US-Russia relations need some restoration if goodwill. Saudi Arabia's puppet, ISIS, could be destroyed, but like al Qeade, another would soon take its place. IMO, getting tuff with Iran is more of a priority than destroying ISIS, Assad, smoothing relations with Putin. nobs 17:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
He also seems to want to start something with China. That may be a scarier prospect than anything coming out of the Middle East. And it's probably inevitable anyways. If that gets serious he's going to need the Russians on his side as well. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 03:36, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
That's exactly right. All the money Americans spend at Wal Mart (something like 150 million Americans shop at Wal Mart once a month) is being used to build and modernize the Chinese military, which threatens the US daily at the Spratly Islands. America's war on terror distracted the US attention and ability to compete for 10 years and allowed China to catch up economically and militarily. Trump's saying to China the gravy train is over. nobs 06:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Pizzagate

What the hell is pizzagate ? Diacelium (talk) 21:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/5/13842258/pizzagate-comet-ping-pong-fake-news Hipocrite (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Ask nobs, he's a full-throated believer. Semipenultimate (talk) 21:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
From what I gather: hare-brained alt-right conspiracy theory claiming that Hillary Clinton and John Podesta ran a child sex traffic ring out of a local pizza restaurant in Washington D.C. Came to prominence in the media recently due to a believer attempting to "investigate" the pizza place while toting a firearm. Think the Planned Parenthood shooting, but thankfully nobody was killed this time. 71.188.73.196 (talk) 22:05, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
All you need to do is take a relatively innocuous, common foodstuff, declare it to be a code word for child rape, and then magically you find all the "evidence" you could ever need out of any primary source that includes casual conversation. I'd call it "classic conspiratorial thinking" except that it's actually a special kind that only works in self-reinforcing communities, because you need someone to tell you that X secretly means Y. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 22:24, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Which probably answers(again) why resident "Conservative" Aneris was banned. Did he try to push that stuff as real?--Benaresh (talk) 22:27, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I was not sure myself but thanks for the info.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
"All you need to do is take a relatively innocuous, common foodstuff, declare it to be a code word for child rape," The term pizza has been a code term used by pedophiles long before Pizzagate. It came from the fact that Child Porn and Cheese Pizza share the same acronym, CP. I used it on the Derp web adventure page which was written before Pizzagate was even thing. Despite this, Pizzagate is speculation and only speculation about an email thread from the Clinton leak. It's possible but there's no evidence.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 22:44, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
@Benaresh That is not why Aneris was banned. Reconstructing his statements accusing multiple people of pedophilia isn't a healthy topic for discussion, but suffice it to say it's unrelated to this incident. But this incident does show how defamation on discussion boards about the subject is not to be treated lightly, as it does have real ramifications.
@CheeseburgerFace, Let's be honest, that's obscure internet bullshit. That it's genuine obscure internet bullshit doesn't make it any less perfunctory and arbitrary. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 23:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
It's a pedophile term, no shit it's obscure. When the last time you've talked about pedophilia? The term is mostly used on chans like 4chan and 8chan and on deep web documentation, how discovered the term.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 23:53, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
@Benaresh nobs is much more the resident conservative than Aneris was. I think a few others poke their heads in every once in a while too, despite the site's general tilt to the left. Aneris fancied himself more of a "classical" liberal from what I can tell, but still, most of his politics seemed center-left even by today's standards; at least by my interpretation. There were a few rather glaring inconsistencies, though. B) talk 23:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Sooo.... Did the FBI clear the pizza place after looking into Hillary's emails found on that guy charged with a sex crime involving a child who Bill Clinton married? Rest assured, if the FBI cleared them, we can have full confidence. nobs 07:17, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Dale-gribble-conspiracy-theories.jpg
WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:35, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@CheeseburgerFace CP: Clown Porn, Captain Picard, Cartesian Plane , Castrated Penis, and many more all found here look if that is the best you can do for why Pizzagate aint a really really really stupid Conspiracy then i am afraid you are not trying hard enough.
@Bshaw I realised that we have proper conservatives here. Instead of "Conservative" i probably should have stated Reactonary but that is kind of a fighting word. What do you mean by "classical" Liberal? Libertarian? those are conservatives who like Anarchy but not the Leftist Lingo that comes with it, like less extreme AnCaps. --Benaresh (talk) 09:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
"Classical Liberal" = Libertarian who doesn't want to use the L word - David Gerard (talk) 10:12, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Jesus Christ, if you're not going to bother reading the whole conversation and strawman, then don't bother talking. My argument was that Pizzagate has no evidence and that the term "pizza" is a pedophile term that wasn't a term pulled out of thin air for pizzagate. Because pizzagate has no evidence and the fact that the conpsiracies have become full blown stupid, there's no reason to believe it's real. For Christ sake, READ before talking out of your ass.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@CheeseburgerFace Sorry it wasn't intended as personal attack. but the way i understood it CP and Cheese Pizza was the thing the Conspiracy hinged on and i pointed out that it also could mean Clown Porn. I am not even sure why Pedos need secret lingo when Freenet and TOR offers them an Retreat. Are they still on TOR ? I think a lot of their big sites were taken down like Silkroad but yknow like Herpes they are hard to get rid of.--Benaresh (talk) 17:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
It's okay. The term "Cheese pizza" is more of a joke from 4chan and 8chan than an actual term used by pedophiles, though from my research on Tor, the term is used, sparingly. "Pizza" just happens to be one of the real terms that the conspiracy gets right, all the others like "sauce" and "map", totally out of thin air. And yes, pedophiles do unfortunately exist on Tor (not TOR). I have documented them on the deep web page. Torland needs to focus on activism and surveillance circumvention than a place for illegal activity.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
If Hillary had just used a State Department server, the Dems never held fund raisers at the pizza parlor, and Bill didn't ride Epstein's plane to fantasy island, none of this ever would have happened. nobs 18:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Are you seriously implying that a bunch of seriously random events are all somehow corralled into an entire nonsensical conspiracy theory? Are you gonna rope the Illuminati into this, too? Ɀexcoiler Кingbolt Noooooooo! Look! Up there! 18:46, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
After the FBI clears Hillary of wrongdoing because a guy charged with pedophilia has her illegal emails found on his server, a gun-totting nut parades into a DC pizza parlor and fires off a round. Mainstream sources would have us believe it's caused by their fake news amatuer competitors reporting on the facts mainstream news sources themselves report on. Honestly, I don't know what to believe. Even if the pizza parlor owner himself is DNC contributor who hosts DNC events, either. If I were him, I'd rethink some of my past associations and practices, as well. And the sources of my information. nobs 19:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
I am sorry i am lost here. Do you blame the Owner of Pizza parlor for assosiation with the DNC as incitment of this incident? And no one but 4chan pushed the #pizzagate heck memecenter has a fucking timeline of that whole shit including the "Evil Hillary" Youtube Video that pushes that kind of shit. Don't even pretend that it was made up by the Media --Benaresh (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Troll --Cosmikdebris (talk) 20:31, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
OK, answer me this: Which was a fake news story carried by mainstream media sources which may have impacted the outcome of a US presidential election?
(a) the Benghazi attack a spontaneous demonstration prompted by the Innocence of Muslims film, or
(b) child sex trafficking allegations in Hillary Clinton's stolen emails.
This us a relevant question because of the trending story Michael Flynn Jr, alleged to have spread fake news, was about to receive a security clearance. Hillary and the DNC's complicity in fake news with mainstream media outlets is well documented. nobs 20:35, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@Cosmikdebris I know i should stop this but i really really want to understand the line of reasoning here.
@nobs i take c) Stop deflecting please, #Pizzagate was now circa late for the Voting Party and Benghazi is as important to this discussion as Goat. I asked if you think the Owner is at fault for getting a gun nut into his Shop for being affiliated with the DNC and your Sentence "Hillary and the DNC's complicity in fake news with mainstream media outlets is well documented." has no basis in reality. Unless of course you can provide sources.--Benaresh (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
As Mark Leibovich of the New York Times Magazine recently put it, commenting specifically on the Hillary and Podesta email revelations, "there are in fact collusive aspects to these relationships". And what I heard about the owner's DNC connections did not come from Breitbart, Infowars, or WikiLeaks. It came, in explicit telling detail, over the CBS Radio network on a talk radio program. nobs 22:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Thank you nobs. But i asked about sources on the "Hillary and the DNC's complicity in fake news" part. All you posted here was how the reporter that wrote the Article got treated for being in the leaked E-mails "Sarah Palin tweeted about me, Trump himself derided my actions in a stump speech and I’m pretty sure Bill O’Reilly just called on me to resign, if I’m reading the barrage of Twitter mentions correctly — and it is a barrage (or was before I stopped reading Twitter)." and Podesta was named twice sure but nothing else but named. In addition did i never doubt the DNC connection i asked you if the Owner is thusly at fault for the Gunman. --Benaresh (talk) 00:24, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
No. I'm not saying he's at fault. I'm saying the day before the incident, I heard a quite detailed account over the CBS radio network about Comet Ping Pong, owner's, employees, and DNC fundraising activities. I don't recall which show it was, so finding a transcript at the moment is difficult. But I'm still willing to bet the owner, if he has any good business sense and judgement about the lives and safety of his employees and customers, is rethinking who he's willing to get involved with in the political sphere publicly. And why he needs to exercise such judgement. nobs 01:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] A warning(particularly to nobs)

To quote David Gerard above:

"You might think that "don't persistently use the wiki as a platform to try to make out living people are paedophiles" was a simple and obvious rule that anyone could see was a good idea and would have no problems following" —David Gerard

Don't fucking do it. If you think people are being unfair by arguing against you when you do this. It doesn't matter. Cut it out. Not an okay use of the wiki. I really want this warning to fucking stick this time. Guilty until proven innocent is not a thing. Unless your exact framing is "Respectable Source Says Ycitation" call no one a pedophile please. Please. I'm begging you. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 20:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I'm trying to stick to the fake news aspect and peripheral gun violence, which are important topics. nobs 23:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Is it time to maybe get a bit authoritarian?

Why are unregistered users authorized to edit and blank our pages? Worse still, why is it against RW policy to ban them permanently? Why the hell do we make it easy for wandals?

What are users, like nobs, moronic enough to believe in 'Pizzagate' or who believe that Trump will bring manufacturing back just doing here? What are people who constantly complain about our 'biases' doing here? I know that we're supposed to be encouraging 'constructive dialogue' but where's the 'constructive' in all of this? It's just a bunch of other-minded people who are here to provoke, to scare and to feel 'special'. I think we should take ourselves a bit more seriously as a wiki and accordingly take the idealistic notion of 'diversity of opinion' less seriously.

I love this site but when I see BoNs harassing us all the time (and it's mainly Alt-righters and reactionaries) you just don't feel as proud of it as you could feel. I propose to the authorities here to take the notion of AUTHORITIE seriously and the idealistic notion of 'freedom of opinion etc' less seriously. Freedom of the opinion exists already because this is the internet which means that if you have something to say you can say it. It's not and should not be incumbent upon us to further 'improve' upon this state of affairs. I hereby propose that we change some of the more liberal statutes governing this wiki and initiate cleansing operations against reactionaries, irrationalists and assorted moaners who have already infiltrated our idyllic cyber society. Heil Gerard! Gewgtweg (talk) 10:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Who are we? Who are you? WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 12:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
It's easy to revert blanked pages. It's also easy for vandals to circumvent a block. Crude edit filters can play a role in combatting vandalism (and are used here) but they can be circumvented without much knowledge or effort and may intensely annoy people making legitimate edits.
As to pogroms: there are certainly users here who annoy me intensely, and there are many other users who annoy other people intently. Do you have a proposal for differentiating who should be banned? Is lame half-assed trolling worse than childish vandalism or stylistic oddities or sloppy editing or failure to cite anything? Are you confident that other people would share your opinion? Annquin (talk) 12:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
I get where Gewgtweg is coming from. I feel the same way about all the Alt-right Zombies invading and trolling anything with a dissenting opinion to their own. But that is exaclty why we, as RW, shouldn't wield the ban Hammer and at least read their stuff and consider the points before refuting the bullshit. Aristotle wrote: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." It makes us as a communitiy bigger when we do that instead of sinking to their level. Remember we are the ones that try to challenge our Bias so reality and truth are with us. If they want to live in their made up World it is their Problem. Again I really really get why you are tired to have the same Shit again again again and again posted. --Benaresh (talk) 12:57, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
You guys have (ostensibly) been here literally a few days. You could at least make a token effort towards not seeming like concern trolls before you start pontificating about the ban hammers "we" should be using. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:46, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
It was abundantly clear that I suggested ousting not those people who happen to 'annoy' you or me but a contrarian group of people (wingnuts and moonbats although the former case is far more common) with no particular contributions to make other than provoke the rest with their supposedly smart and deep bullshit. Whether someone likes it or not, this IS indeed in many crucial respects a biased website and this is what I mean by WE (clear? There should be a WE). Basic positions on the Right, on Feminism, on Communism etc. will never ever change in their essence. Should someone fail to understand this, they should go away. Should someone, on a site promoting skepticism etc. be found to be stupid in terms of beliefs (like nobs, there you have an example) and excessively naive (and the majority would agree) then they should go and be stupid elsewhere. Those that defend stupidity on an idealistic basis e.g. 'freedom of speech' have not in my view understood what skepticism is about. By not engaging in sufficiently strict quality standards or by lowering down our defenses and being excessively liberal in our editing rights, we lower the quality of our pages. And I suspect that if we eliminated a few common bickerers editing conflicts might be less common.
My humorous tone might have given you a different impression (the impression one might desire to have) but I take intellectual and scientific matters very seriously. They're fucking hard in the sense that they require not only painstaking education but actual talent and both of these things are, I assure you, much harder to come by than editing skills. Knowledge and talent is not a democracy. I repeat that I love this site, I would never leave it and I resign myself to whatever the 'powerful' or 'influential' people here decide. But I feel compelled to express my view that the kind of liberalism that exists with lightweights and stupid people as well as with intruders here is neither beneficial nor a particular sign of self-respect as a wiki.
To make you understand, let me be clear again: if people repeatedly engage in such a serious error as not citing their work or writing redundant things then their editing rights should be restricted immediately and their proposals expressed on a talk page until they learn to exercise caution and take our work seriously. There should be disciplinary measures. If the offense is repeated or if they 'annoy people intently' then they might actually have to take a hike. Gewgtweg (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
@weasel.Dude i say refute them not shut down anything resembling dissenting Opinion. If i fucked up when trying to be nuanced sorry about that, but seriously there is a difference between let them talk here in the Saloon and Talk pages and another matter of Wandalising. If you are concerned that i am here to Troll the shit out of this site then please go on and check my Contributions. I am fairly new to the whole skeptic thing and I'd rather have not concern troll thrown at my fucking head. --Benaresh (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Hey, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. I'm a whale biologist.
My advice to act less like a concern troll still stands. WèàšèìòìďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:15, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Go check my Contributions. If you still have the feeling i am a troll then i Implore you: Ban me! I know i have made my point poorly but i take FUCKING offense to be called a troll( i used to worship ED. The delusional People that come here to bother us need professional help (probably) or someone they can vent their impotent rage on. Super annoying but their BULLSHIT wont change Scientific Fact. All i want is you consider that someone might be salvagable despite spouting Nonsense. But fuck me, for trying to reach out to confused assholes like me. --Benaresh (talk) 18:31, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
The problem with permanent bans on unregistered users (BoNs) is that the IP number is not permanently associated with a person, so after a while, it is often reassigned to another computer, usually another person. Bongolian (talk) 20:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

We have always taken a very tolerant attitude to people who disagree with us. There are a number of linked reasons for this. Here is an incomplete list.

  1. If you wish to persuade people it is necessary to have a dialogue with them.
  2. Many of the old-timers who created this side saw how counterproductive efforts at stifling dissent were at conservapedia and wished to avoid the same mistakes.
  3. It is very easy to slip into groupthink and allowing, or even encouraging, other voices can mitigate this risk.
  4. Confirmation bias is probably the most common of the cognitive biases and having it challenged is healthy.
  5. Echo chambers where everyone is saying the same thing get boring quickly.

Obviously this can cause problems when there are users who abuse the liberal policies. But I would say it is better to listen to and refute critics rather than to close the doors to them. And if we cannot refute them then we should consider their ideas.--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 21:07, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yep, with the only real caveat being that free speech isn't a suicide pact. You can and should remove people who make the site worse and less able to serve its function, but parsimoniously so as not to completely destroy all the advantages of diversity. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 21:15, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Bob_M for making the point i tried to make. I know i could really improve on my line of reasoning, but i try to get better at it. I didn't even take Free Speech in my mouth(It tastes like ash and Holocaust denial ) so please believe me when i say i did not intent to troll. --Benaresh (talk) 21:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The answer to the initial question - by their deeds shall you know them. Some IPs only contribute once or occasionally (and why sign in and out just to correct a typo?); others contribute regularly and are mostly positive... and some registered users are 'right pains and worse.'
Perhaps there should be restrictions who think that there should be restrictions upon 'persons not being trolls, flamewarrers, users of #excessive# bad language' and similar nuisances. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:31, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Nonsense. The majority of unregistered editors are ideologically-motivated cranks. And if you 'contribute regularly' and are 'mostly positive', what you do is you actually sign up. If Wikipedia didn't secure certain articles all the editors would be doing all day was clean up incoming turds falling like meteorites. In my view, the same policy should be enforced on a number of articles here too that happen to be the focus of crank attention/fixation. You know what has happened to most nuts who have joined to engage in 'constructive dialogue'? They got blocked or binned not very long thereafter. Gewgtweg (talk) 16:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] How to stop hanging out on RW

Hello, my name is TheGrandmother and I have a problem. I have shitloads of assignments to write and other assignments to grade. But yet again I find myself here. Reading around on RW, editing RW and looking around the manosphere for interesting things to add to RW.

I really need to get some actual work done? What is your best tips for closing the RW tabs and getting some work done? TheGrandmother (talk) 13:49, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Idk what works for you but after a while i just get sad about all this stuff, so i rather do work than to think about the People who really believe that 9/11 was an iside job. Just imagine how fucking lost people must be if that gives you hold in life.--Benaresh (talk) 15:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
That happens to me a lot. You keep researching around and after 20min on some MRA page you just want to crawl up under a blanket and die a bit. TheGrandmother (talk)
edit more RW, obviously - David Gerard (talk) 15:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
But David! That way only madness lies...--Benaresh (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
There's a reason why one of the ban options is "By user request: usually for having no life". ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 15:38, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif
Self-bans work. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 15:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
how do i ban myself?--Benaresh (talk) 15:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Same way you block anyone else ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 15:52, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
I get an Error so i presume i cant block myself? Anyway could you do it, please?--Benaresh (talk) 16:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
That's b/c you're not sysop: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special:UserRights/Benaresh Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 16:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I feel your pain, I'm at school, and I'm supposed to be doing a U.S history essay but instead I'm listening to Pink Floyd and spamming Alt+X'Legionwhat do you want from me 20:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Omg. Fuck you... I did not know about that. Is it cool if i send you the bill for my student loans since I'm never going to graduate now. TheGrandmother (talk) 20:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Going in for one minor edit and staying all day

Sons of bitches! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:38, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] The Rational Awards and other Propagandistic User Numbers Increase Strategies

Marketing #101 says 'start an awards night' RW has an article on the http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize Ig Nobels. What about an similarly styled, RW hosted award for Debunkery, and Least Rational/Woo stuff. It needs a catchy name like the Irrationals? The Rashies? Woohoo?s Then you can hashtag that stuff 'wow , 'X' thinks earth flat? #irrationalaward'. It communicates the chief RW function in a friendly, short easy to digest manner. Think of the amusing Award names you can (and will) suggest! OMG. The Snarkies!! Gadzooks (talk) 23:59, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

How about RW's Snarky! Any proper Skeptic can debunk Grown up Fairy Tales, only People who do it with the proper pizzazz, or flava if you will, should get our spicy Snarky. --Benaresh (talk) 00:55, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
My Snarker! word! Gadzooks (talk) 01:11, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

For now, I'd suggest no. It'll look overblown and overgrand unless done well, IMO, and I don't have high hopes for excellent awards on a wiki. An alternative would be an article creation drive. I was going to suggest that RationalWiki have an "crazy website of the week" banner somewhere, encouraging users to find the strangest quotes they can. It'd also be something nice for DG to blast on Twitter. FuzzyCatPotato!™ (talk/stalk) 02:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Awww :( I already hyped myself for the Snarky! Well maybe next year.--Benaresh (talk) 02:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
A good way to avoid Overblown and Overgrand or Fail is to discuss it :-) I don't generally commence with Failure in mind, but it's always an option. If not, work harder. We can fail if we really try! Reticence because 'Variable Indefinable Concern' and/or 'wtf noob' is ok with me. Statement of fail prior to discussion of even content and structure is still valid part of discussion, but feels fearful rather than creative. I interpret your core message to mean resources should be directed towards content. Fair call. Content is good, I'm down with it and slowly trying to figure out how to contribute in that manner, but the main thrust of this week has been about working in the Attention War, and not all of that is about content. Creating small, clickbaitable, easy to transmit stuff has benefits. That's why the Ig Nobels and similar. Gives legacy MSM snappy content that they can disseminate. No harm, no foul.What me worry? Gadzooks (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Remember Keith Olberman's Worst Person In the World Awards? He got blamed for creating an atmosphere of partisan bitterness and mistrust and had to abandon it.nobs 02:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Yeah but to be fair, he was (and still is) really angry and kind of ranty. But this is me not being fussed with an idea not gaining ground :-) I like figuring out how to sharpen a stick to get those little fat grubs out of the log and I've had a little practice so I'm not so cautious about how I chew my sticktool anymore. I've already made so many mistakes in this area that I am happy to fail in new and different ways. Experiment, Fail, Learn, Smile, Repeat. Imma let me finish, but no i'm not. Meep! Gadzooks (talk) 04:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

in reply to users @Gadzooks, Benaresh, and FuzzyCatPotato:, this user suggests creating a seperate page on rationalwikispace named policy poll which will be exclusively for nomination of various modifications of policy with poll system.FAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) 15:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That's... not a bad idea. 32℉uzzy; 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 17:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] A page on bras

No seriously. I found a page on bra fallacies. Despite having no medical benefit, many women wear bras because it's expected. Can this be on RW?— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 02:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

It could be. There's an erroneous belief that bras cause cancer.[2] Mercola believes it.[3] Bongolian (talk) 05:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Dressed to Kill (book)[wp] by Sydney Ross Singer and Soma Grismaijer is the lodestone/epicentre/nipple of dubious "bras cause cancer" claims. It was on the TODO list but the idea was archived. But I agree it's a good topic. Annquin (talk) 09:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
[surprisingly high percentage] of women wear the wrong bra-size. Also, this is probably not true for bras, but most of women's clothes have "size zero" today that used to be "size five" in the 1960s. Worzelpete (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
A discussion on bras? I'd better write something creepy. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] urgent things to do on the part of the sitemasters

Opinion by this user. Priority is based on numerically descending order

  1. upgrade mediawiki to latest version in order to enable most forms of templates, pinging and other features
  2. moving various language version rationalwikis to their respective language code subdomains. en.rationalwiki.org, ru.rationalwiki.org, es.rationalwiki.org, fr.rationalwiki.org etc
  3. shifting focus from saloon bar to the forum section of site, preferably as a hub for discussions. diverting most of manpower towards the to do list and articlespace
  4. providing opportunity for opposing views in the forums and talkpages by performing a quarteryearly clearing of banlist as to allow debating with cranks and nonrationalists with no holds barred
this user welcomes others to edit the board.FAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) 08:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Can we delete things? Seriously, it's a big horrible graphic and if your intention is to drive people off the Saloon Bar (for some reason you've never adequately explained), nice try. It's heartwarming all this enthusiasm for change though.
I'm sure there was a good reason for not doing more foreign-language subdomains but I forget what it is (maybe to do with admins/board/mods not being able to understand forringers.) For mediawiki upgrades see here, here, or RationalWiki:Technical support. There's already procedures for people to be unbanned if they want to contribute; they usually involve wheedling. Annquin (talk) 09:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I've got a request FAMAS, cut out the "this user" shit, now! Spud (talk)
Stop the this user bull, FAMAS. Now. Things won't go well if you don't. PBfreespace3 (talk) 16:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Overreacting to annoyance. The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 16:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Has anyone noticed what's going on re "fake news"?

It would seem some people are now using it to smear tactic. Basically, they are labelling any piece of information published that doesn't sit right with their prejudices, regardless of veracity, as "fake news". Seriously, CNN is now being accused putting out "fake news". For instance, there are now actively people saying Obama's reported approval ratings is fake news. [face palm]. Others are using it to label news outlets they do not agree with, smearing them as purveyors of fake news. We're in scary times. "Fake news" is soon to become the 1950s equivalent of an accusation of being a communist for news outlets. This will destroy the mainstream media. I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing.

How do they fight against this? And the weird thing is, the outlets that are ACTUALLY frequently guilty of fake news, the Daily Mail, Fox News, aren't being accused of fake news.

What I'm trying to say is, it is the most (comparatively) trustworthy news outlets, the ones that are arguably the most impartial, e.g. CNN and the BBC, that will suffer as a result of this. People are beginning to label facts - FACTS! - "fake news".--Levi Ackerman (talk) 16:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Considering this attitude is exactly what allowed fake news to proliferate in the first place... I'm not surprised. Protecting the belief system > knowing what's actually true. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 16:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

in reply to user Levi Ackerman, this user asserts the fact that the phenomenon of confirmed news, regardless of source, being labelled as fake news is something that is "older than computer networks" and mainstream media being labelled as fake news source is nothing new. the user Levi Ackerman is inflicted with paranoiaFAMAS (Talk) (Contribs) 16:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The latest rumor or fake news is that the European Union is already acting on blacklists of alleged fake news sites. nobs 16:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
If a (major, first world) government moves to ban it, you can pretty well expect the rationalwiki article to take a heel turn from "Oh god this shit is so terrible" to "Sure it's pernicious but this is dangerous precedent" in about 5 minutes flat. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 16:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I, for one, am in favour of a crackdown on fake news. Fuck free speech absolutism. I don't play that shit. It's why I'm glad here in the UK we have IMPRESS, the IPSO, Ofcom and numerous other bodies for shit like this. The Daily Mail hasn't come out and labelled any fact "fake news" - yet, but you can bet if it does, one of these bodies will come down on it like a ton of bricks! --Levi Ackerman (talk) 17:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't follow your logic. I'm still very much in favor of "free spech absolutism", but that doesn't mean I think it should be legal to knowingly fool people via fraudulent news reporting for the express purpose of misleading the public (or financial gain, e.g. via ad revenue or malicious code). Outside of that, however, fake news isn't something you'll be able to fight on the "supply side". What you have to do is actually teach your citizens to think skeptically and critically. In the end, you can't rely on anyone but the citizens that make up society to take care of its ills. Besides, "alternative media" just isn't that good at anything but whipping up frenzies on social media (though, most often, in various Internet echo chambers). Just like alternative medicine wouldn't magically start working if evidence-based medicine was to take some major PR hit in the future. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not worried. The same people who screech about "fake news" were those screeching about "mainstream media", before "liberal media", and so on. They already didn't trust shit; it probably can't get much worse. HairyFelineTuber (talk/stalk) 16:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not worried about the people screeching about "fake news" either. I'm worried about the people who they are screaming fake news to. Let's face it, most people have too much going on in their lives to verify the truth of a news story. However, if an Alex Jones, or a Paul Joseph Watson, or a Sean Hannity, whom let's face it, a lot of "average working class" people listen to, or the Daily Mail, which a lot of "average working class" people buy, tells the average Joe or Josephine that something is "fake news", they are likely to believe it. I'm not sure how many of you have seen this:


That is kind of thing I'm worried about; people beginning to regard facts as "fake news" because some lunatic they trust, like Hannity, or Jones, says it is. It's as bad as Fox editing Obama's speech so it seemed like he was telling "illegals" to vote and people believing it; believing the commander-in-chief expressly, not implicitly, expressly, sanctioned criminal acts. For all of its flaws, you cannot be okay with the MSM losing complete credibility, because they are, even if some of them have abrogated that post, the fourth estate. In case, I'm not being clear, my fear/worry here is not the proliferation of "fake news". It's the proliferation of the usage of the term to dismiss actual news. --Levi Ackerman (talk) 17:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Well you're already engaging in that yourself when you describe the Daily Mail & Fox News as fake news outlets. They may be guilty of sloppy, one-sided, irresponsible journalism with a certain amount of disinformation, but the stories they cover are real events which the rest of the media also covers. They're completely distinct from sites like the Boston Tribune & Baltimore Gazette which exist only to propagate false stories about fictitious events. This is the kind of fake news people are talking about in the recent controversies about fake news trending on social media & potentially influencing the election. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif this. Fox News is the MSM of the right and thusly can't outright fabricate bullshite. Bend the truth intepret it their way, yeah sure. but outright lies? Rare. I never tought i would say this but, considering what was spread on FB Fox News doesn't seem so bad anymore... --Benaresh (talk) 09:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
@Weaseloid and @Benaresh, seeing as you concur with Weaseloid, what do you call this, if not fake news:


They literally fabricated the story of the president encouraging illegals to vote. Or how about the time the Daily Mail published the story that the mother of George Clooney’s fiancee, Amal Alamuddin, opposed their match because her faith forbade marriage with outsiders, which, as it turns out, was completely untrue. When I say "completely", I mean not a scintilla of the the claim was true. In other words, it was "fake".
Also, I didn't describe the Daily Mail and Fox News as fake news outlets. Here's my quote:
"the outlets that are ACTUALLY frequently guilty of fake news, the Daily Mail, Fox News, aren't being accused of fake news."
It might seem subtle to you, (it doesn't to me), but there is a difference nonetheless between me saying Fox and DM are frequently guilty of fake news and me flat-out calling them fake news outlets, which I didn't and I wouldn't. Please, I know it's easy to do, but try not to fatuous inferences. Thank you. --Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
I see your point. Though, Weaseloid's distinction should hardly be a problem for you then, if your point was that the Daily Mail and Fox News are not fake news outlets. They're not (like you concede). Like Weasel said, they may angle and spin real events beyond recognition, but they don't outright fabricate news of mass shootings with dozens of victims that never actually took place. That's what you imply that they're doing when you say that they've been putting out a faked news story, even once. They don't deal in faked news stories, and the times they've misreported things (or been led astray themselves due to lack of critical thinking), it's certainly not been an intentional scam that they've perpetrated. Again, they twist, they cherry pick, they spin, they quote mine, they sound bite... All the dirty tricks in the book, like in the clip above (filmed by some really heavy breather, btw). But they don't just make up mass shootings. That's the difference. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Wait What? Sorry Levi, i didn't hear about that, that is disgusting. And i didn't catch your nuance in your original post for which i apologize.--Benaresh (talk) 12:11, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, dude. Th hug.gif--Levi Ackerman (talk) 13:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

An article somewhat relevant to this discussion. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 17:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I am reminded about the idea of "Junk Science" which turned up a few years ago. It was not long before the idea was co-opted by Fox News to refer to any genuine science with which they disagreed. Legitimate climate science quickly became "Junk Science" to their reporters. --Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] The country of Malta strikes a blow against pseudoscience and religious quackery

Gay conversion therapy is now illegal in Malta. Here is the article- https://www.yahoo.com/news/malta-bans-gay-conversion-therapy-first-europe-165248644.html --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm willing to bet that that law will be struck down if it proceeds to either the ECtHR or the ECJ on religious freedom grounds. --Levi Ackerman (talk) 18:24, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
I'll take you up on that bet. Or better yet, make your prediction here. when do you think it will be struck down?--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 21:09, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Libertarians are going to whine that they can't use social pressure to make someone go to a therapy that'll leave them with depression, anxiety and drug addiction.Diacelium (talk) 23:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@Levi Ackerman: Why do you think the ECtHR or the ECJ will strike it down on religious grounds?
The law does not interfere with religious practice, but targets self-proclaimed "therapy" which claims to be able to "cure" what is not generally viewed as a disease (homosexuality) in either Malta or the other European countries over whom these courts have jurisdiction. I really can't see the legal argument here, unless someone will try to claim that the "gay conversion therapy" is an integral part of religious worship.
The only problem I can see is a rather different one: It is the underlying assumption of a fixed sexual orientation that never can or should be changed. However, since so-called "gay conversion therapy" (GTC) is not about an honest exploration of a person's sexual orientation and development, but a blunt homophobic mental repression circus (GTC might as well stand for "Go To Closet"...), the issue of sexual identity is not particularly relevant to the specific phenomenon of GTC. ScepticWombat (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
@ScepticWombat, I will moderate my previous "will" to "may", although I still lean towards "will" because, a case could be made that this law contravenes Article 10 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights, namely, "freedom of thought, conscience and religion". There is also the Equal Treatment Directive 2006 which prohibits discrimination on the basis of, inter alia, religion or belief.
Here is a scenario in which I think the court would be well within its interpretation to strike down this law: Imagine a man or woman from a conservative religious background. This isn't hard, especially given that Catholicism is the dominant religion in Malta. Imagine such a person - devout in his belief or faith - who cannot accept that homosexuality is natural, and believes - BELIEVES - it is a sin and no good [insert religious follower] can be gay. So, this person decides to try out gay conversion. However, gay conversion is now illegal. Such a person could bring a case against the state, alleging that this law is incompatible with his/her right of freedom of freedom of religion and/or conscience under the laws cited above. This ban, this person could allege, is an infringement by the state of their religious and/or conscientious freedom. This ban - the crux of their argument would be - means they, as devout followers of a religion in which it is a sin to be gay, are forced to be gay, and therefore not free to be good [insert religious follower].
It would be like if a state passed a law requiring doctors to administer blood transfusions in every case where it is needed, regardless of the patient's religious objections. I know one group that would object and would likely bring a case under the same law. I would have no objections if the law made these conversion therapies illegal for under 16s, but a blanket ban? I don't think I'm okay with, from a right to self-determination point of view.
It's a lot like the gay cake case, or a blanket ban on the face veil, both of which I massively disagree with.
@Bob, I guess it will be struck down when it comes before a court. I can't predict when that will be. It could be next month, it could be next year, it could be never. It has to come before a court.
As much as I dislike religious quackery, it is not for the state to legislate against them, except where they affect other people's rights, national and/or public security concerns, or where minors are concerned etc.--Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
I rather think that the EU would put secular values before religious ones in this case.
For example the institution has spoken out strongly against the teaching of creationism. See here.
As far as FGM is concerned no religious argument in its favour would be accepted. OK, you can argue about whether FGM is a driven by religion or not - but you can also argue about the religious basis of "Gay Conversion Therapy".
I honestly don't think the legal challenge would work. But if you are really prepared to bet on it - I would suggest a bottle of single malt?--Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Truth

See the main article on this topic: Tankie

Coming as it does on the heels of the Brexit vote in June, Trump’s victory is another blow at the imperialist system and the so-called liberal order. As such, it should be greeted with enthusiasm by the revolutionary proletariat and progressive humanity everywhere. — Unsigned, by: Franciscomaciasnguema / talk / contribs

That's bullshit. Trump will nuke the working class so hard that communism will seem reasonable in USA after he's done. There nothing to be enthusiastic about. Also, could you sign your post ? you have to type four ~ Diacelium (talk) 22:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Oh my God, by deporting millions of innocent Laitno immigrants we can usher in Communism! Pfft, yeah right! Ɀexcoiler Кingbolt Noooooooo! Look! Up there! 00:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Accelerationism never works and never worked and will never work. Worzelpete (talk) 00:17, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Communism rises when poverty rises. Trump's labor pick is against minimum wage. Trump wants to abolish Obamacare, and a member of Trump's staff wants to privatize medicare. The list goes on. I'm exegerating when I speak of Communism, but a more authoritarian left might rise after Trump. Or maybe an even more authoritarian right. Diacelium (talk) 00:17, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

There won't be an after Trump until Trump is under the earth. And we have to pray to all seven gods that Trump won't have a biolgical heir when he dies. Worzelpete (talk) 00:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Um, Trump does have biological children--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:50, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Does he? No, what I mean is that we all have to pray Trump will not be succeeded by his son or daughter. Worzelpete (talk) 00:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
The Trump dynasty? Uh oh...-DiamondDisc1(talk) 04:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
It already seems like he is grooming Ivanka. --Levi Ackerman (talk) 10:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes, in more ways than one (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-ivanka-trump-creepiest-most-unsettling-comments-a-roundup-a7353876.html) MyHatIsBread (talk) 12:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] An page on Pierre Bourdieu ?

I've written some pages here, and I'd like to make one on Bourdieu, but it's a too big subject. Would anyone else be interrested in writing, or beginning it ?Diacelium (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Not that it's not an interesting topic (I've used Bourdieudian concepts frequently in my work), but why does RW need an article on him? Is it due to "I find him and his ideas interesting" or because you think the man and his ideas are missional and if so, why (because they have to be debunked or because they point out errors in certain crankery)? ScepticWombat (talk) 03:54, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Bourdieu has got a lot of hate from the right-wing, and sociology is starting to be hated by politicians here in France. Bourdieu also developped many concepts which explains the class system, cultural capital and many concepts that debunks beliefs that are still accepted by politicians. He also analysed domination of man on woman, the oppression of gays... Symbolic power/violence also seems to be an interresting concept for RationalWiki. He also opposed the Rational Choice Theory. Also, Bourdieu used epistemology to explain how sociology is a science, which is important for RationalWiki since we analyse pseudoscience. And also because he made great contributions to sociology, and we don't have many pages on social sciences. Diacelium (talk) 09:09, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Something confusing about Pensacola Christian College's education programs

I know PCC is weird and confusing to begin with but here is what confuses me- after someone graduates, the alumni get certified as teachers through the Association of Christian Schools International yet the certification is recognized by the U.S Department of Education. If the certification is recognized by the USDE then why would they not be able to get certification to teach public school? Hell, even BJU education graduates can become certified for public school teaching.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Trade war with China

I know we owe China about $6.2 Trillion but even if we paid every last cent of debt, they would still be screwed as they make hundreds of billions of dollars a month. Lets say we bought $300 billion worth of product a month then in a year it would be $3.6 Trillion in profits for China. So if we paid them every last bit of debt they would still be screwed over in the long term. Even if South America and Africa started to buy from China, the thing is that their money is of low value or (almost) worthless; so China might want to be careful on what it does.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 03:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I am kind of surprised that nobody wanted to discuss a current global issue like this? I am not saying this to be rude, I am just shocked that nobody wants to talk about a global economic issue like this. (Shrugs shoulders in confusion)--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 04:03, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Well, maybe it's the misuse of the word profit. The profits China enjoys wouldn't be anywhere near what is suggested. Profits would be $3.6 trillion less the cost of shipping and manufacturing. But I agree, it's a key topic we'll be hearing more about and be discussing in the very near future. nobs 16:34, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Dunning-Kruger Effect Recursive?

I have a question. When I started studying computer science I was a colossal cunt-muppet. I had done "a lot of" programming in my spare time before I started and, as any other idiot, I thought that I knew everything. I complained and whined about the fact that we had to take elementary courses and that the program should not accept people who didn't know how to program so that we, the "smart" kids, could start learning more advanced things right away.

Now 4 years later, I know that I was just a colossal twat sitting on the peak of the Dunning-Kruger graph ferociously wanking to my own perceived my competence. I now know that I wasn't any good at all when I started and I learned tonnes of stuffs from the elementary courses. And the new kids who show up here and think that they are Gods gift to CS just because they can write "Hello world" in Java drives me fucking mental.

So one might say i have gained some insight. But have I? Or have I gained real insight and I just perceive that I have grown some even though i haven't. Have i just moved to the peak of a different Dunning-Kruger graph? TheGrandmother (talk) 12:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

You have achieved the correct insight, which is that one is always a dumbarse. Hopefully one at higher levels of achievement - David Gerard (talk) 13:07, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is that you overestimate your own proficiency in a particular field, especially when you don't have any significant experience in it. It's essentially a lack of awareness. Now you have enough awareness to recognize you're more knowledgeable now than when you started, and that even though you're experienced there is still more depth to the field for you to uncover. You're at the "I know that I know nothing" phase. I don't know if there's a proper name for, but it's effectively the polar opposite of Dunning-Kruger. 71.188.73.196 (talk) 13:14, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Keep in mind that one of the ways that the Dunning-Kruger effect was proven was via observing that people who are actually good at the topic in question consistently ranked themself way below "10/10" — and that, conversely, over-enthusiastic amateurs ranked themselves near-best or indeed best. The fact that you no longer rate yourself as best, despite having gained insight, seems to mean that you now rank among the actual professionals in the Dunning-Kruger scale. In other words, you're starting to comprehend the many various ways in which one may both fail and succeeed at the subject. And the antithesis of the Dunning-Kruger mindset is the plain realization; "It's not that simple". Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Getting back to writing science fiction.

I came up with a really weird setting. A very unlikely one in which three planets in the same solar system are all sporting civilizations at the same time. The degree of development will vary from country to country. The real kicker is that the leading planet is ours, in particular during the last days of the cold war to modern times. For obvious or not so obvious reasons, the United States wants to survey those civilizations. First with a satellite, then a probe. And much later, humans on a suicide mission to meet the locals. We can see the problem, as even for the sake of discovery, no one would be that crazy. We can wait until we are advanced enough to make it not suicidal, but that would be boring. — Unsigned, by: Breadbasketbomb / talk / contribs

Perhaps if you ask on a relevant [Althistory.wikia] talk page you will get some ideas. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:36, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/ has a lot of discussions about how to develop an imaginary world. They normally prefer a slightly more specific question. Annquin (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial question re transgender

Really! I'm about to ask a controversial question. You've been warned; some might say, trigger-warned!

Okay, here goes, is transgender a disorder? I think that it is. I'm no psychologist, but there is evidence to suggest that it is. However, this is not to say I think it is unnatural. I don't think it is unnatural. I think it's perfectly natural. But so are many disorders, physical, behavioural, mental, etc: bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, dissociative identity disorder, cleft palettes, that thing where your heart is on the wrong side. However, there seems to be a taboo against describing transgender as a disorder. People seem to take offence at the suggestion, and I suspect there is an element of political correctness in the scientific community's refusal to describe it as such. Or maybe it simply doesn't meet the criteria for being defined as a disorder. But surely, being born with a brain that is the opposite of your birth sex is a disorder? I realise this may be a gross oversimplification, but it's something that has always puzzled me. Help me out here. --Levi Ackerman (talk) 13:36, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think your question is "controversial", per se. You learn by asking. Regardless, gender dysphoria[wp] is classified as a disorder both by the ICD-10 CM[wp] and the DSM-5[wp]. Another way of putting it is that dysphoria is seen as the pathology, regardless of gender identity[wp]. Indeed, identifiable causes of transsexuality seem to vary quite a lot[wp]. I think the American Psychiatric Association[wp] sums it up the nuance quite well:
"Gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."
This should be understood in light of the decision to entirely remove the old diagnosis "Gender Identity Disorder" (much like "Homosexuality" was removed in the past), instead adding a modern and accurate diagnosis to take its place (one lacking the shortcomings of GID) — "Gender Dysphoria". There's much nuance to take in on the topic, of course. But the TL;DR is that one can be mentally ill in various ways regardless of gender identity (just as lacking a particular interest of, or take on, gender identity isn't a predictor of freedom from mental illness). Regarding any possible influence from the brain — of course it's related to the brain[wp]. To anyone — except for a woo-pushing immaterialist — the brain is, ultimately, responsible for all of our behaviours, "well" and "unwell" alike[wp]. Note that this is a separate issue from asking "Is there an over- or under-representation of mentally unwell people in the transgender community compared to the general populace?", and that the answers to such a question — whatever they may be — vary with numerous factors. As we've seen, and continue to see, in regards to the abhorrent treatment of the LGBT community — persecution, for one thing, doesn't exactly help foster general mental wellbeing in members of sexual minorities (never mind considering the threat to their physical wellbeing[wp]). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 15:01, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] A wild nobs appears!

IOW, the question all comes down to being comfortable with your sexuality. A transgender who is comfortable with their sexuality won't get a diagnosis of a disorder. Anybody of whatever sex who is confused about their sexuality may have a disorder.
Here's another controversial question: Is the DSM-5 and the field of psyciatry quack science? nobs 08:29, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
The operative phrase in the DSM-5 is clinically significant distress. What this means is a bit fuzzy but can be explained as the difference between getting a slight headache every three days that annoys you slightly and getting severe migraine attacks that renders you incapable of functioning normally. Determining if a condition is clinically significant is a very hard thing to do and is one of the many reasons that laymen should not play psychiatrists.
And to answer the other controversial question: DSM-5 is not infallible and every psychiatrist knows this. And psychology is a science. It's just an incredibly hard science.TheGrandmother (talk) 14:45, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Typically today, a multiple choice questionaire with about 30 questions, each having 3 to 5 answers, is "scored" to arive at a diagnosis. Questions such as "Do you have nightmares?" There is is little human or emotional interaction between the patient and questioner (one does not need to be a doctor or medical specialist to arrive at a diagnosis; a Nurse Practicioner or Masters in Pschology can administer tests). It reminds me of automated underwriting in mortgage lending which removed the human subjective element of mortgage underwriting out of the lending and approval process. nobs 16:10, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
You are correct in that a multiple choice questionnaire is used but it is not just the "score" that determines if there is or isn't to be a diagnosis. The questionnaire serves more as a "checklist" of things that the psychiatrist needs to ask about in order to get a fuller picture of the patients mental state. I think you might be confusing the questionnaires from the DSM-5 with the regular assessment tests (which can be administered by a nurse), these assessment tests, are as they name might suggest, a tool to assess the current mental state of the patient. They are primarily used to keep track of changes in the patient s mental state. These assessment forms are not the same kind of questionnaires defined for the DSM-5, the questions for the diagnosis procedure are asked by the psychiatrist and the psychiatrist takes note of the answers. It is not the one you fill out your self.
If your psychiatrist lets you fill out the form and then just looks looks at the number I suggest that you find a better psychiatrist. TheGrandmother (talk) 16:46, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
It's not hard for the patient to figure out how to be diagnosed with a disorder and qualify for an entitlement check. Simply make sure your answers all fall in the 3-5 range to get a higher score, and avoid 1 and 2s which drag it down. These tests are true science among professionals at work. nobs 17:00, 10l December 2016 (UTC)
Facepalm.png Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
But the thing is that you don't get to fill in the answers, and any semi competent psychiatrist ill be able to test that you are lying. And also I'm a bit confused here. I have been provably insane for the last 4 years yet I have received no entitlement check? Should i call someone about getting one? TheGrandmother (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
You can qualify and recieve a check without ever seeing a psychiatrist. A psychology PhD can rubber stamp the assessments of a Nurse Practricioner or Psyche Masters. You need a lawyer now, who can protect your rights for what you are legally entitled to. Oh, and the more years your lawyer can drag it out, the bigger the lump-sum back pay and attorney's fees will be. Many lawyers specialize in this area. See the Yellow Pages. nobs 17:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
*Pssst* There's a world outside of America Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
America, unlike Greece and elsewhere, has not yet added kleptomania, pedophilia, and pyromania to the qualifying mental disorders for a disability check. But as word gets out, I suspect lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians will form a movement. nobs 17:26, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
...But it says right in the article you link that, quote: "Greek authorities have said that the document is just to help with assessment, and not for benefit entitlement.". You also say "and elsewhere" — but your link makes the controversy appear very local to Greece? And let me get this straight — by saying "not yet", are you implying that America will be "adding kleptomania, pedophilia, and pyromania to the qualifying mental disorders for a disability check"? And what's the "movement" you predict will form, as word of what "gets out"? Sorry if I seem a little confused; it's because I am. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I am no longeer confused. I now know exactly what Percy was trying to tell me. TheGrandmother (talk) 17:34, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
The Associated Press reports the proposal became law. A New York Times Op-Ed came out in favor of the same treatment in the US. Other movements and sentiments have been exlressed in Germany, Italy, elsewhere. nobs 17:49, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
...But here too, the first source (which isn't AP, but Yahoo! News) states:
"The Labor Ministry said categories added to the expanded list — that also includes pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists — were included for purposes of medical assessment and used as a gauge for allocating financial assistance."
In fact, the news articles on the Greek bill you cite are both from 2012, and both include statements from the Greek government that debunk the fears. Surely something more recent should be avaliable if this is a current, ongoing situation? The other op-ed you cite — from 2014 — doesn't exactly imply that society should be rewarding paedophiles or anything. It clearly states:
"A pedophile should be held responsible for his conduct — but not for the underlying attraction.".
The point of the op-ed (which isn't a news item, btw) is that, as it was being written, no paedophile could even seek treatment without being blacklisted in the US. Thus, it argues that no self-preserving paedophile would risk seeking help and informing society of his existence, no matter how conflicted he was over his attraction. The arguer in the op-ed concludes that:
"Arguing for the rights of scorned and misunderstood groups is never popular, particularly when they are associated with real harm. But the fact that pedophilia is so despised is precisely why our responses to it, in criminal justice and mental health, have been so inconsistent and counterproductive. Acknowledging that pedophiles have a mental disorder, and removing the obstacles to their coming forward and seeking help, is not only the right thing to do, but it would also advance efforts to protect children from harm."
Regardless of any pros or cons of that particular, random op-ed — nobs, I still don't see how this all ties together. Though, I would like sources (and specifications) on the "other movements and sentiments" (?) that you claim have been expressed in Germany, Italy — and, again — "elsewhere" still. Thanks. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 18:16, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] "Regressive right" navbox

There's something that connects Stormfront and The Right Stuff and The Daily Stormer. It's the same thing that connects NaturalNews and Before It's News and PrisonPlanet. It's the same thing that connects Bold and Determined and Roosh V and the Men's Rights Movement. They don't just reject modern feminist movements, modern antiracist movements, modern LGBT movements, "globalism", government-run economic programs -- the conservatism of the 1980's did and does that. Conservatives have, for the longest time, painted their programs as pro-minority, pro-feminist, and so on. These people don't -- rejecting the need for equality of sexes, races, orientations. They further reject many tenets of liberal democracy -- criticizing freedom of speech, advocating for violence, and the voting rights of all citizens. Their rhetoric is (even more) overtly conspiratorial and outraged -- focusing on small incidents of liberal stupidity and turning it into a globalist conspiracy. In short: they are anti-"modern".

Admittedly, all of these elements were elements of the conservatism that came before. But it is clear that something has changed. These groups are not united by anything positive -- they are united by their rejection of the modern. Their positive ideas are constradictory: Stormfront would love an authoritarian Nazi government; NaturalNews prefers something close to survivalist libertarian anarchism; Bold and Determined would probably support something "masculine", but certainly not genocidal. And yet they are unified in the material they promote: Pizzagate is a wonderful example of this overlap. Hillary Clinton health conspiracies and white genocide conspiracies are other examples of massive overlap. In short: These groups are anti-modern, not pro-conservative.

I suggest we call these people (and those like them) "regressive right". As before, they aren't unified by what they promote. "Alt-right" doesn't fit; they aren't all white supremacists or Neo-Nazis. "Neoreactionary" doesn't fit; most of these people don't want a fucking monarchy. "Masculinist" doesn't fit; it's more than just gender relations. "Traditionalist" works well -- but it already has a definition. Instead, they are merely "regressive" -- anti-modern and pro-not-very-much. (The parallel to "regressive left" should also be apparent.)

As a first step towards this recognition, I'd like to put together a navigation box (navbox) for these articles. (Not all of them, obviously. NaturalNews is better served by the alternative medicine box, Stormfront by the Nazi box.) What symbol(s) would be appropriate for this modern regressive movement?

TLDR: I want a "regressive right" (anti-modern conservatives of the modern era) navbox.

FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 01:13, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Come on dude, even Aneris agreed that the concept of a "regressive right" was oxymoronical, as the right has always been — at the very minimum — conservative, and somtimes (often in the context of movements covered on RW) outright reactionary. If you want to make a nav template (which is great), why don't you make one for the mall ninja/paramilitary woo/soldier of fortune type pages? Something with katanas cutting milk jugs, flying shuriken and fedoras, spinning nunchucks with night vision laser sights, acne and fingerless gloves? Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:22, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I call bullshit. Two reasons: First, this response smells of continuum fallacy -- just because they share exist on the same scale of "pining for the past" does not mean that they *are* the same. Second, they do not pine for the same past that mainstream conservatism did. A past of "less government regulation" is hardly the same as a pro-white or anti-globalist or pro-male government. FuzzyCatPotato!™ (talk/stalk) 02:11, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I think what he's saying is that so long as this kind of outlook is trendy in the right, to the point where they got a president elect out of it, we don't really need a special category to separate it. This type of behavior is frustratingly common enough that to do so would be to miscategorize it, and quite simply, there hasn't been any effort from the right to separate this stuff from itself, so I don't see why we should be the ones to make that effort for them. - Kitsunelaine 「SJW Illuminati shill.」 06:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I can recognize that. I can also recognize that we need a navsidebar for people like Common Filth. They aren't predominantly anti-anti-racist, anti-feminist, or anti-LGBT. Any better suggestions? HairyFelineTuber (talk/stalk) 10:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

How is this distinct from the neoreactionary movement? WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 10:16, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Ideas having to do with social darwinism, biological racism etc. belonged largely in the way of thinking of liberals already by 1914. During and after the era of decolonization and globalism they were deleted from official rhetoric. Few people know that socialist critique on capitalism was loaned off conservative critique on modernity. The socialists were representing the proletariat while the conservatives aristocratic interests. After the end of the cold war, politics has shifted universally to a liberal rhetoric and the radical attack to the establishment comes from an update of the same kind of radicalized and modernized conservatism we saw in the late 19th century and from an update of a radically egalitarian anti-establishment liberalism or social democracy of the same period. They are post-modernist variations of the same thing.

In the West, a reboot of fascism under far-right movements and parties (their differences in preferences, whether paleolibertarian, monarchist or Neo-Nazi, or merely just incoherent fearful moaner is irrelevant, their historical role is the same) will eventually win as a I believe. To be honest, they have won already. In the rest of the world, a radicalized anti-western ideology will take root. Russia will play the two for its own benefit. It's interests stretch both west and east.

The world will shortly be broken down into economic spaces: An American, a Russian and a Chinese setting the stage for a global apocalypse that will make WWII seem like a high-school brawl. Meanwhile the heat of global warming is cranking up. Maybe civilization is one step before the grand finale. We need to ask ourselves: what are the issues of the modern period? Gewgtweg (talk) 11:41, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

& What's the deal with the creepy clowns? ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 11:55, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

tl;dr no, and I concur with the objectors - David Gerard (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Nobs' corner

What does anybody know about the traditional conservative movement in Sweden? As I understand it, it is the traditional conservatives - businessmen who brought in immigrants as union busters and fundamentalist Christians showing compassion - who are blamed for Sweden's immigration problems. nobs 08:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
[train_of_discussion_being_violently_derailed.png] oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 10:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Take a gander at this, First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism. "All over Europe, merely condemning right-wingers as bigots will neither quell popular fears nor win the argument. Liberals must look in the mirror. And then we must make some concessions." nobs 15:53, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Personal advice needed!

I'm kind of being half-sarcastic here, but you people should be experts at this kind of thing. One of my professors is an anti-vaxxer, because both of his boys have autism and got vaccines. He saw fit to bring this up in class. He's also Baptist Christian and a Republican who supported Ben Carson in the primary (wtf?). It really pisses me off and I've taken some BB-gun-level potshots at him at times.

Several of the other students genuinely believe in horoscopes and astrology and are gullible (I did a Barnum test on one and they were shocked). Three others also subscribe to chiropractors. One has back pain from a car accident and she just saw the chiropractor yesterday, and thought it was amazing. Her mother put her on a DAILY treatment course, indefinitely.

I fear I already know the answer, but I'd there anything I can realistically do to help these people? My optimistic side says yes, the pessimist no. PBfreespace (talk) 04:44, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

He's a professor of yours who gives you a grade. Keep quite and happily get an 'A' from him.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
If you do argue, use Dennet's rules:
How to compose a successful critical commentary:

You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.

You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).

You should mention anything you have learned from your target.

Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Not because you care about kindness, but because it makes you seem credible rather than antagonistic. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 06:36, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Whatever happened to just accepting and respecting people for who they are? Why the urge to proselytize in the name of god knows what? nobs 08:39, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif ... because bigotry.— CheeseburgerFace (talk) 08:45, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Nobs, the conservative essayist, the Trump apologist, the evangelical Christian, the conspiracy-sniffing anti-Democrat, asks: "Whatever happened to just accepting and respecting people for who they are?" FᴜᴢᴢʏCᴀᴛPᴏᴛᴀᴛᴏ, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 10:20, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Indeed.-DiamondDisc1(talk) 17:59, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
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