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This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
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  1. Can I get a 3rd party review? (08:04, 23 May 2013)
  2. Recommend Smart Action/Sci-Fi Novels (18:06, 17 May 2013)
  3. Questions concerning Raw milk (06:51, 15 May 2013)
  4. Matchmaking service for the master races (18:48, 12 May 2013)
  5. Wherein I try to avoid "whining" (09:59, 12 May 2013)
  6. Dream Club (19:09, 11 May 2013)
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Contents


[edit] Wiki-Project: Dead Links (sticky)

David noted that he'd been seeing dead links in the articles he was referring to on RationalWiki.RationalBlogs.org, so I put together a project page offsite that lists them all page by page. There may be some false positives because my tools are less forgiving that a browser. There's a raw dump of all dead links at the end of the list. Check it out. Please email me which pages you've cleared dead links from and I'll remove them from the list. If enough people actually do anything about this, I'll write an app that will let you check pages off the list yourselves. Surprise me. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 03:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Status as of 5/10/13: 3364/~5000 links remain
Project discussion

[edit] Cold fusion

This might be of interest. Note the author - one "Sebastian Anthony", any connection with Anthony Sebastian on CZ?
Note also: "Stay tuned; we’ll let you know when — or if — the E-Cat passes peer review." (my emphasis) Scream!! (talk) 11:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

That's some serious bullshit right there. Someone call Randi! "We attached wires to a BLACK BOX which defiantly had heat producing resistors in it and it got marginally hotter than we expected based on our terrible experimental setup." You know what you do if someone hands you a magic black box and you're a scientist? YOU CUT IT THE FUCK OPEN. Hipocrite (talk) 11:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm totally quoting your last two sentences later. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 14:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
In the Schrödinger article?--Stunteddwarf Jabba de Chops 19:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
This is so fucking stupid. I work in a test lab for a living, and I'll tell you this: If a guy strolled in off the street and said "I got this gadget that produces more power than it consumes and-" Before he could finish the sentence all of the scientists, engineers, and techs in my lab would be like "Cool! Let's plug it into itself then!" --Inquisitor (talk) 02:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] feminism divide in skepticism and atheism circles

Seriously, wtf is going on nowadays? Let throw out my surely horribly inaccurate understanding of wtf is going on, and I do hope I'm wrong somewhere. So, Lindsay makes a speech at Women In Secularism 2 conference. Off the bat - if he's the CEO, then it doesn't matter he's a white male talking at the conference. If he doesn't go, it could be interpreted as a snub. Here's the text of the talk. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/my_talk_at_wis2/ The first glance finds nothing horribly wrong. I did see a few veiled jabs at feminism, but minor. IMHO at the very least, it was impolitic considering the background as far as I know. Except one bit. AFAIK, the particularly controversial bit was where he commented on "shut up, and listen". Again, at face value, I have to agree with his comments. On the other hand, it very well could be a strawman position. I read pharyngula regularly, and I don't think it's obviously a strawman of PZ's position. Regardless, still impolitic. Still, like all good idiotic disputes, I think this is quite salvageable at this point, but then people have to dig their holes.

So, Myers replies. http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/05/18/women-in-secularism-is-going-strong/ I think Myers point is very apt. As I said, at face value, I don't think I object strongly to anything Lindsay said. But, the background is that there is a huge campaign of sexual harassment, rape threats, and so on, an amount of hatred directed at women, which is amazing. It astounds me, and in that context, it seems that Lindsay is bending over backwards to try and defend the assholes. That seems like a plausible interpretation. I'm not sold just quite yet, because I'm an ignorant boob. (I think I get sold on it later.) At the very least, Lindsay could have mentioned the insane campaign of hatred against women, and how that needs to stop. Keep everything else, but throw on how there's one group engaging in activities which are wholly despicable, and which needs to stop.

Watson replies. http://skepchick.org/2013/05/the-silencing-of-men/ Talks about some useless pedantics, but basically what I just talked about. See above. At the very least, she wants a simple acknowledgement of the huge problem in the community as opposed to what may appear to be a whitewash. Probably a reasonable position.

Then, Lindsay doubles down on stupidity. This is what made me "choose sides". http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/watsons_world_and_two_models_of_communication/ Watson upped the ante a little, but Lindsay goes even further. Talks about some useless pedantics. He uses some stupid, over the top, hyberbole "It may be the most intellectually dishonest piece of writing since the last communique issued by North Korea.". But then he displays his true position: "But in her defense, perhaps Watson was too busy tweeting about how “strange” it was to have a “white man” open the conference to pay attention to what I was actually saying. (I’m just glad Watson didn’t notify security: “white man loose on stage, white man loose on stage!”)" If you are are professional leader of a diverse community, there is no excuse for that kind of stupidity. Seriously? I mean seriously? You posted that Lindsay?

Am I missing anything important? Is there anything else I should read to be properly informed of this new fiasco? EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It feels like we're talking about this in the Bar once a week, and it's getting insufferable. Seriously, who wants to get on with the proposed Elevatorgate article? Osaka Sun (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
In my defense, this is a new incident in the ongoing idiocy of humanity. Just want to make sure I have all my facts right. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, it seems like there is an eruption of stupidity once every few weeks these days. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
No one that engages with this issue looks good in the end. Certainly Dawkins, Watson, Myers & Thunderf00t have all tarnished their reputations considerably. In my experience this can often happen when everyone is wrong (or alternatively when the people who are right are right for the wrong reasons); but this is not necessarily the case. I have tried to read articles on what elevatorgate was all about, as I have previously mentioned I was away travelling when it occurred and missed most of the brouhaha. I'm yet to read a satisfying synopsis. Certainly without a working knowledge of feminist thought, experience with the community and intimate knowledge of the event I would be reluctant to create an article that will, in all likelihood, become a lightning rod for the site. However, a well-written article would be appealing to our target demographic Tielec01 (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
That's my problem. I don't know enough to honestly and accurately summarize the position, so when I don't, it's invariably going to buttloads of invite criticism. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
The summary of elevatorgate on the Richard Dawkins article under the Gender Politics header is pretty good, Tielec. You should read that. There are also some references that might explain it in further detail if you'd like.--"Shut up, Brx." 21:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
It's an OK summary of the aspects of the kerfuffle relating to Dawkins. On the other hand, our Rebecca Watson article (deliberately?) doesn't mention the incident at all, which is rather a glaring omission. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I mean, if I were to write it, it would be something like:

  • The biggest problem is the insane and absurd abuse and harassment directed at women who speak out about being abused, assaulted, and harassed. That needs to stop. It is not a violation of the principles of free speech to say someone is acting like an unimaginably huge ass, and they should knock it off. It is not a violation of the principles of free speech to withdraw support from organizations that go out of their way to condone, tolerate, support, or otherwise aid such behavior. The values of free speech include the ability to criticize ideas so that we can disregard the bad ones and keep the good ones. The values of free speech were never intended to shield assholes being assholes, and to prevent any reproach or reprimand. They're free to be assholes, but communities should generally not condone asshole behavior, and should shun it to a reasonable degree. (For a more detailed analysis of how this might go too far, see Mill's On Liberty.)
  • PZ Myers, Skepchick, and crew, also have some problems. They are miniscule in comparison to the above problem. The "shut up and listen" mean (EDIT:) meme is badly phrased. Yes we should listen to unprivileged groups. No that does not mean we have to accept their criticism as valid without any input from people outside the unprivileged group. The "shut up" part is slightly inflammatory, IMHO unproductive, and implies this mistaken notion that people outside the unprivileged group never ever know better about the issues of people in the privileged group. However, given we currently do a pretty good job catering to the needs and desires of the privileged group, it's about time we show some concern for other groups.
    • I just recently read a great way to think about it. There is no "neutral" way to meet the needs of everyone. Instead, the purported "neutral" means to meet the needs of everyone instead happens to target the average person, aka target the privileged group. Instead, fair consideration should be given to everyone's needs, which requires listening to everyone, figuring out their needs, and trying to distribute limited resources fairly to address everyone's needs.

So, I think that's my position at the moment, and I think both sides would rip me apart from that. Just meh. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

That's mostly true, but there's less need to pay attention to the needs of the privileged because pretty much everyone knows what they are. They've been heard, and they're covered. Rehashing all that is largely a waste of time. It's somewhat like the "equal time" argument from creationists. EVDebs (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I think its because the last person to ever be the face of anything, let alone something as dividing as gender politics is PZ and his crew. You need a diplomatic hand to bring up things that most people aren't even aware of I.E. the concept of privilege in society. If you just go around telling everyone how much you're right, and their wrong, then you're going to get shit like MRAs. Those who attack not because they don't like social justice, but because they hate the kinda people who are the face of it. --Revolverman (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm a feminist according to the usual definition, someone who wants sexual discrimination, harassment, etc., to end, and someone who acts for that end. It's included in the values of humanism, and I'll call myself both a secular humanist and a feminist. However, if you disagree with some of the pharyngula-"standard" policy solutions to solve these problems, then they label you a misogynist. My experience with commenters there is horrible. One thread was me against the world on a feminist issue, and another on a energy policy issue. Echo chambers both times, no principle of charity, and an adamant refusal to talk facts and do anything but accept "the conventional wisdom of experts" in the energy policy discussion, where they chose the experts and I did not. (Go nuclear!) It's a giant echo chamber in some regards, which is unfortunate. -- PS: In this incident, I don't actually see much of anything I can call PZ and crew out on yet, which makes me happy. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
My sympathies. A while ago I went into the Pharyngula comments on a different topic, with eyes open and what I thought were skeptical credentials in good order. Not fun being their chew toy. They have their own set of unquestioned memes/talking points, and the groupthink is strong with many of the more vocal ones there. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 11:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Lindsay issues a half-hearted apology. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] shut up and listen

I don't understand. Is it really that hard to say the following? "Yo people. I'm sorry that I made it seem as though there's not a serious problem of abuse directed at women in our secular, skeptic, and atheist communities. My bad. I understand it's a serious problem, and I was a fuckwit for playing down how bad it was by spending a good deal of time talking about how women use "privilege" and "shut up and listen" to silence opponents, but not a single sentence about how a bunch of assholes are doing far far worse to women and the supporters of women. Again, my bad." EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I think we have a perfect example of debate only serving to entrench both sides into increasingly untenable positions (albeit one closer to correct than the other). I too find that Pharyngula is increasingly serving as PZs echo chamber and he is growing intolerant of his mistakes being pointed out to him. At this stage I think that the cracks are only starting to show; strident language, polarisation of issues, certainty on uncertain issues and inability to ignore small differences for big similarities. Tielec01 (talk) 00:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Here, let me commit a cardinal "sin" or fallacy. I was talking with my brother, who happens to be gay, and I'm not, (as though this is some kind of justification), and when discussing these issues, he volunteered that he dislikes this one particular idea in the "theory of privilege". Namely, it's the idea that people inside the disadvantaged group are always right about their issues and concerns, and people outside cannot ever make useful contributions. It is a meme in the culture, and a lot of us identify "shut up and listen" as that meme. Moreover, it's not a strawman of PZ's position, because I've seen him adopt that many, many times. There is a lot of truth in there, that the privileged group should listen more than they do (and be quiet while listening). I do not dispute this, and wholeheartedly accept it. I even accept that they know a lot more about their issues and problems than I do as a privileged white male. However, if someone wants to say that this means I can never ever contradict someone when they're wrong, if it happens to be a member of a disadvantaged group on a matter about their disadvantaged status, then they can take a hike. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 00:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Dawkins

Ugg, great, now Dawkins is being pulled into the fray, or entered it, or something. http://www.shakesville.com/2013/05/richard-dawkins-takes-brave-stance.html I thought that Lindsay's speech wasn't that bad until I started thinking about context and how it would probably be perceived. That's my position now with these Dawkins tweets. They don't seem that bad, and I even agree with their literal, at-face value. But the pharyngula commenters disagree: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/05/24/thugs-in-cheap-suits-are-not-paragons-of-human-rights/#comments And that's where they lose me. Maybe I don't have the context necessary, but they seem to be reading more from what Dawkins has said than I'm willing to admit. I don't think of Dawkins as a sexist asshole. Ugg, I need to go re-read our elevatorgate article and the linked-to articles. I know Dawkins doubled-down for a while before climbing back out of the hole and scrambling back to the right side of the brink. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Just ugg. Reading some synopses again made my brain hurt. Idiots on both sides keep ratcheting it up. Perhaps there are some moderating voices in there somewhere trying to bring it down, but god damn. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh, it seems that a lot of people still think Dawkins is a misogynistic prick. Did he ever offer an apology or message of some kind that explains his position in a good way? Let me go see if I can find anything... EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Re Elevatorgate? No, he didn't apologise or back down; his attitude was that Watson's concerns about inappropriate sexual advances were trivial because she didn't suffer physical ramifications of extreme misogyny like women in Muslim cultures do. The relevant quotes covered are here. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 00:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
If you want to start an argument/discussion over this, I'll be more than happy to oblige, but in this case I find myself understanding Dawkins to clearly mean something other than what you say with his gum chewing example. However, I also understand your alternative interpretation, which is also a common interpretation, and perhaps a fair interpretation, but I think it's also clearly not what he intended. Regardless, I do agree that Dawkins handled the whole thing horribly, just like Lindsay here doubled down on stupidity instead of trying to talk it through reasonably. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:39, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] PZ

Just.. why can't I have nice things? It seems PZ was kind enough to tell me that I'm a failure of a human being. "You have failed if the person you’re interested in calls your behavior creepy. That's where you need to step back and re-evaluate: you did something wrong. Decent Human Beings do not blame the other person, they recognize that they screwed up, accept their responsibility, and decide not to ever do that again." I am the creepy person, and I don't know why. I am a failure of a human being by his standards. Thanks PZ! The annoying part is that PZ would be the first to tell a theist that their feelings of outrage for being told they're wrong are unreasonable, and he would support the speaker. So, in this case, we have an example where an offensive person is justified and good, and the offended person has an unreasonable expectation. But, change this to dating, and PZ says it's always the creepy person's fault, no exceptions. Just uggg. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 23:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

PZ is often unnecessarily inflammatory. You can behave and speak inappropriately to other people but the lines are never clear. Misreading the interplay of cultural, psychological and environmental factors and behaving slightly inappropriately is not failing as a human, it's being a human. Having said that, if the object of your affection does find your behaviour creepy you should probably reassess your behaviour or, if it turns out that they are just being neurotic, then you should reconsider your affection. Certainly they wouldn't be the first person to complain about romantic attention whilst secretly enjoying it. Tielec01 (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
EL, you seem to be taking this old blog post from nearly two years ago very personally, while, unless you were one of the people who posted in the original conversation, that comment wasn't directed at you. Why does it offend you so much? Do you actually identify as a "creepy person"? & I don't see where you're going with your religion analogy - surely telling somebody whose behaviour you find creepy that you find their behaviour creepy is at least as justified as telling somebody that you don't like their their religious beliefs. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 00:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I see no difference between telling someone that they're being unreasonable being offended by religious talk vs telling someone that they're being unreasonable being "creeped out" by being hit on. How we make determinations of whether this is reasonable or not is by the values of humanism, and by cultural norms. Consequently, there are some cases where someone is unreasonable offended by religious talk, and there are some cases where someone is unreasonably creeped out. PZ says otherwise, and I see rank hypocrisy here. And yes, I identify as a creepy person, or at least completely socially inept, and I have been told that I am creepy sometimes, including by my sister. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I gave up reading most of these blogs because of the groupthink which inevitably develops. There's an analogy with CP where Andy became more deranged by the acolytes sucking up to him all the time; to maintain a degree of level-headedness you need to be challenged and taken down a peg or two, otherwise you end up with a messiah complex. I don't believe Dawkins to be a misogynist, nor a racist or homophobe but if you are a white heterosexual male you are inevitably going to say something that might be misinterpreted by the other side because you have a different POV and the issues have a different weight. Also words and phrases have subtly different meanings for each of us and sometimes these get blown out of proportion. People shouldn't be pilloried nor be obliged to apologise for every slip of the tongue, but there's usually a self-righteous cadre who inevitably turn hysterical. [Is hysterical a misogynistic term? Fuck, now I've got myself worried.] I like to think I'm an easy-going type and it gets up my goat when people deliberately take offence and scream BLASPHEMY! Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science.Moderator 08:08, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] binaural beats

My flatmate is on at me to try binaural beats. My extensive research on the subject (I looked on wikipedia) doesn't really tell me much and the RW page isn't much better. Anyone has any clue as to what they are supposed to do and their effectiveness? AMassiveGay (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I think you're supposed to get high from them or something. I suppose it could be related to ASMR, which is at least a thing, albeit not very well understood. But other than that, you're probably getting bullshat. EVDebs (talk) 01:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Claims made about binaural beats tend to be so vague that they can be difficult to debunk, although many of the most popular products (e.g., I-Doser) claim to be able to get you high. There are loads of problems with this, of course. While brainwave entrainment (i.e., a stimulus at a certain frequency causing brainwaves to match that frequency) is possible, it is not as simple as these products claim. For one, entrainment does not always cause the brainwaves to match beats precisely. Two, brainwaves are not uniform over the entire brain. Three, there is no precise correlation between brainwaves and specific brain or mental states. Brainwaves are not like a dial that you can just put on different settings, and changing them definitely does not mimic the effects of specific drugs like Vicodin. See this list of brainwave types -- note that there is no "get high" brainwave. Furthermore, many of these products claim that there is a lasting effect caused by entrainment, which is not true. Any effect is gone once the stimulus is stopped. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC) (ETA: Incidentally, the same entrainment effects can be achieved through strobing lights. No doubt products based on this will be hawked soon enough.) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
That would certainly support the hypothesis that it's somehow ASMR-related. Of course, as I said, ASMR hasn't really been studied yet, so it's not entirely clear what's going on there either. EVDebs (talk) 19:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
So what, exactly, is ASMR? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
It's a tingly feeling that seems to be triggered by certain sounds, particularly soft voices and tapping and scratching noises. The name is short for "Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response", which I suppose is as good a name as any for it. There's a whole genre of programming on YouTube dedicated to it, a lot of it loosely inspired by Bob Ross. The funny thing is, it's very popular. Despite lack of formal research, the producers of such videos have gotten frighteningly good at triggering it, and people will sit there for 25 minutes watching someone fold towels for the experience. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably something distantly similar to ACHOO syndrome, but that's pretty close to a wild guess. EVDebs (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Except ASMR sounds pleasurable. I have photic sneeze reflex reflex (ACHOO syndrome) -- while it's only mildly annoying, it's not something I would choose to have. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Fulfilling my biological function

Ace is breeding. I am sure this is a sign of the End Times. Acei9 03:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I view having children a lot like falling down a flight of stairs... hilarious when it happens to someone else. Mazel tov. --Inquisitor (talk) 04:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I am looking forward to teaching my child to hate the things I hate. Acei9 04:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Children sound like work. That and the people i have a reasonable shot at dating and eventually marrying dont want kids anyways. --MikallakiM 04:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Aren't you like 17? Things change. A lot. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svg 05:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Nutty knows what he's talking about. When he was 17, he never got laid. Now that he's all grown up and making some money, he can afford the finest adult services that Craigslist has to offer. --Inquisitor (talk) 05:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations on the biological functions, Ace. WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Congrats. Get as much sleep while you still can.Th. BernhardDas Leben ist ein Prozeß, den man verliert, was man auch tut und wer man auch ist. 09:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Like cleaning the bathroom somebody's got to do it, but I'm not sure it merits congratulations. Have a half-hearted "Great" from me, Ace. Everybody else, humans have long since transcended their mere biological function of copying genes, we are now host to a higher order of immortal self-replicator, all Glory to the Hypnotoad. Tialaramex (talk) 09:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
No-one asked you for your congratulations. How about you go fuck yourself while I jam a broken wine bottle into the weird protrusion you call a face. Acei9 09:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Well done Ace. Me too. Due in mid September. Yours? DamoHi 10:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Well done? As you'll know, the process to make a baby doesn't take much effort. I'd wouldn't consider it a chore at any rate. Heh. Anyways, hat-tip to you Damo. December for me. Acei9 10:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe not a chore for you. The milestone they call "birth" is smelly and tiresome in most cases. Some time soon thereafter you may expect a wave of oxytocin to overwhelm your detached equilibrium. From there it's all downhill. Or up. Seldom level. Still, overall, I'd say it's worth the bother. Keep at it long enough, and there may be grandchildren, which call for less maintenance on your part. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 11:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Indeed they didn't, and if it wasn't for the two people congratulating you above me I wouldn't have mentioned it. If you're practising being emotionally unbalanced then I guess you're doing pretty good? I would prefer not to have a broken wine bottle jammed into any part of me, thanks all the same. Please recycle. Tialaramex (talk) 13:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The actual point of existence appears to be becoming Trolldad and raising a lovely Trollbaby - David Gerard (talk) 11:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Firstly congrats. Secondly there will now be a legion of people who are going to tell you how it's going to be - and yes, I've just become one of them - and everyone's an expert. Do this, don't do that. Babies need structure, babies need room to express themselves, etc. etc. I'd tell you just to do what feels right but then I'd be another telling you how. Have fun and don't blink or you'll suddenly find you've got a stroppy teenager (is there any other sort). Innocent Bystander (talk) 11:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Generally I'm not a fan of other people's sprogs. However, if we have to beat the opposition at their own game, then so be it. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science.Moderator 17:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I bet Ace hires a Darth Vader helmet and says "I am your father" when the offspring pops out. Ajkgordon (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
This is Ace – Donnie Darko mask or nothing.--Stunteddwarf Jabba de Chops 19:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

May your DNA serve the species well. Sterilesig.svgtalk 10:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Should we be grateful that it's only half his DNA? Steven Kavanagh (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] A request for better writers.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/User:Revolverman/F35

I got the rough outline of this page done, but I know I can't write worth shit. I'm asking the more skilled people here to re-edit it into something that can go on mainpage. Thanks! --Revolverman (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I did a bit here and there, including a little bit of Wikification. What interested me was the point that helicopters are the way to go. Now I know the Osprey isn't quite a helicopter, but is it actually a good thing in spite of its 'troubled' history? I always had it down as being one of the biggest money-sinks of all time (I don't really know about these things and didn't know about the F-35 until today). Gomer (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Jeez, I forgot about the Osprey. Regardless of its problems, however, it was only $50 billion. With the F-35 we're dealing with +$300 billion, and that's just procurement. Osaka Sun (talk) 21:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Theres far more Helicopter gunships then the Osprey. The Apache is a great example of an aircraft that does what the F-35 does (at least its ground jobs) better, and at a cost of pennies compared to the F-35s. --Revolverman (talk) 23:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Why again do we need this?--Token Conservative (talk) 01:36, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Tax money waste, Military-Industrial complex, incompetent government, the power of lobbyists, worship of military force, the status of the power of the United States, Take your pick my friend. --Revolverman (talk) 03:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
The F-35 is the DOD's equivalent of "too big to fail." Osaka Sun (talk) 04:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Too big to fail--"Shut up, Brx." 05:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
That's nice, but how does it relate to our mission?--Token Conservative (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement. Documenting the full range of crank ideas.
The jet was build with outdated, and obsolete ideas that were relics of the cold war. Seems cranky to me.
Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.
The massive waste of money on a military toy that no one needs? Sounds like military authoritarianism to me.
Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.
The fact that the media gladhanded this thing up untill a year and a half ago, and some still do, to "preserve American power"

Seems on topic to me --Revolverman (talk) 20:19, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems to me like you're trying to justify wasting time. --Token Conservative (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, sorry you feel that way Hamilton. --Revolverman (talk) 20:48, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh, come on. We can't have our two right-wingers fighting each other! --"Shut up, Brx." 20:39, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Have you guys seen the Wikipedia article for Osteopathic Medicine?

Check this out. It barely mentions that the entire theory behind the practice is completely false. The "research" section is the only part that even hints that mainstream medicine doesn't consider osteopathy a real science. It has gems like this, too:

"Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine and academic researchers have conducted preliminary research to determine the efficacy of OMT techniques to manage and/or co-manage conditions such as asthma[26][27] and acute otitis media in children,[28] and pneumonia.[9] In a 2012 Osteopathic Family Physician review article, the authors gave OMT's ability to reduce the use of pain medications in back pain a grade A recommendation. The use of OMT in reducing pneumonia patients' use of antibiotics and length of stay in the hospital received a grade B recommendation; the use of OMT as an adjunct treatment in acute otitis media also received a grade B recommendation.[29]"

Wow, an osteopathic publication gave you a "grade A" recommendation to treat back pain? And a B for treating fucking pneumonia? I want to do something but I have no idea where to start!RachelW (talk) 00:22, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

It's Wikipedia, what do you expect? Osaka Sun (talk) 00:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
That I can do this--Token Conservative (talk) 01:41, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
the entire theory behind the practice is completely false There you're assuming that osteopathy (in the US, at least) stills follows Andrew Taylor Still's quack teaching. The modern osteopathic practitioner receives much the same training as an MD, and is just as qualified as one to deal with back pain or even pneumonia. A DO (doctor of osteopathy) does not believe he can cure all the body's ills by manual manipulation. DO training includes germ theory and they are legally just as qualified to diagnose amd prescribe medicine as MDs. Unfortunately, our own article on osteopathy does not reflect this, as Wfg took a huge dump all over it shortly after I released it from my user space. But such is the way of wikis, I suppose.--"Shut up, Brx." 01:55, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
ISTR there were some rather damning (as in, not discouraging of the view that back cracking will fix everything) materials from DO courses made available by one of the other sceptic sites. But I'm going on holiday shortly so I won't be digging that up. Tialaramex (talk) 10:25, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
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