Talk:Gender

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Okay, so, it is the same as sex, and if not, how is it different? HeartGoldJump up and down 23:04, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

There is a line talking about how testosterone makes men aggressive and that can be considered part of gender: "But it also includes some biologically driven characteristics: Men are strong, and having all that testosterone, are more aggressive." It is my understanding that recent scientific experimentation has disproved the hypothesis that testosterone causes aggression, leaving the reason for increased aggression in males unknown. The only scientifically verified effect of testosterone is increased maleness sexually. In any case, the statement that testosterone causes aggression is currently not cited in the article. This is followed by another unsupported statement about women that doesn't even identify the biological difference: "Women, conversely, are focused on children, and therefore invest much energy in hearth and home." Why are women biologically more focused upon children? It is probably better off if both of these assertions are removed, otherwise they should be cited along with the contrasting points of view. Maybe the best solution is to merely state that certain gender traits may be biologically influenced but there is controversy. I will edit the statement to make it more hypothetical. User:Webspidrman 21:21, 11 September 2013 (EST)

If this testosterone theory was true, it would have to be women who carry most of it, as females generally are far more aggressive than males, not only with the human species. 127.0.8.15 16:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
[citation needed] Nullahnung (talk) 16:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
We are on a talk page here, not on an article page, so your flagging my comment "citation needed" is invalid. 127.0.8.15 17:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Your response is either ironic, or betrays a tin ear. {{fact}} is a compact way of saying "support your statement or go home." Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Re: Gender and gender identity

In the named section the article states <quote>It is a fallacy to suggest that an individual person must want their biological sex to match their gender identity</quote> Sorry, no, the fallacy is elsewhere. Gender is pseudoscience invented to make feminism more palatable for men. The gender concept, like the concepts of eternal life or rebirth commonly found in religions, allows the individual to bypass hard facts of life, i.e. every person is born with a distinct sex, either female or male (or both, in rare cases) and every person eventually has to die. 127.0.8.15 16:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Gender is a term describing a social construct. It was used before feminists took note of the term, so making feminism palatable had nothing to do with its invention. Nullahnung (talk) 16:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, you are falling to the Presupposition fallacy. Gender having been invented to make feminism more palatable does not mean, it must have been invented by feminists. Arguably it is likely to have been invented by people who wanted to make feminist positions more palatable to men.
But all this only distracts from the other, much more important statement, i.e. The gender concept, like the concepts of eternal life or rebirth commonly found in religions, allows the individual to bypass hard facts of life, i.e. every person is born with a distinct sex, either female or male (or both, in rare cases) and every person eventually has to die. 127.0.8.15 17:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
u havin a laff m8 Jodolf Stitler (talk) 17:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I sure hope this bunch of numbers is joking. "every person is born with a distinct sex, either female or male " Do you really think this? --Marlow (talk) 19:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Why are you so surprised? Our own article on gender binary says that that is the traditional view (putting aside for a moment the fact that this traditional view has come under fire, it is still very much the default view in society). Nullahnung (talk) 19:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I guess I shouldn't be. I just figure that someone who enters a debate about gender would have the slightest idea about how complex it is. Melissa Hine's research on the topic would be a good starting point for someone interested in a scientific approach to these ideas [1]. --Marlow (talk) 21:25, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Marlow, if you deny the biological fact that each individual is born with a distinct sex (no matter what you make of it later) your argumentation is completely illogical and another proof the gender construct in fact is pseudo science. 127.0.8.15 05:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
FYI: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Intersex Nullahnung (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Gender and feminism

That section does not claim that gender is purely cultural. Inserting a large screed to say that biology matters too is unneeded. I've created a compromise that I think we can all live with. --TiaC (talk) 00:32, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

"But the overwhelming consensus of the scientific community is that gender is a product of both biological as well as environmental factors." No. Whoever wrote this is asserting that there is a consensus when the reality is that the proverbial jury is still out. We should simply delete this sentence and skip to the next one, which is an objective observation.Vajrapani (talk) 08:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
No. There is a scientific consensus. I even included 10 (no, wait, sorry, 11) peer-reviewed studies. The fact of the matter is that scientists have moved on from the nature vs. nurture debate. Are you claiming it's 100% a social construct? Because I do not know one scientist who thinks that way. Or are you claiming that it's NOT 100% environment. If so, what % is it? See? Scientists do not know the percentage. No one does. And that's the consensus.
The consensus is as follows: Genes play a role. Environment plays a role. That's about as far as science has gotten. No one knows which plays a bigger role. Parogar (talk) 11:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm honestly astonished that this is even something we're debating over. Okay, look. Have you ever heard of genes? Do you know what a phenotype is? It's how a gene physically expresses itself. Most sexually reproducing species have gendered behavior that presents itself phenotypically. To suggest human beings are the only mammalian species in the entire world completely divorced from our genetic makeup (behaviorally) is to suggest that we are special and God put us here, which is a road I'm not willing to travel down Parogar (talk) 11:12, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


This is parogar using phone. From Wikipedia. "In the twenty-first century, a consensus is developing that both genetic and environmental agents influence development interactively."http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

Could you please point me to the 11 peer-reviewed studies? I don't see them on the page. Thank you. Vajrapani (talk) 03:48, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Well of course you don't see them. They were deleted. One moment, I will find them. Parogar (talk) 05:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Okay, here you go. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]
  1. http://cogprints.org/663/1/bbs_mazur.html
  2. http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&UID=1990-30842-001
  3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7772335
  4. http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2807%2901559-X
  5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421518/
  6. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201
  7. http://www.isna.org/node/564
  8. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2215887
  9. http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3775&context=etd
  10. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11500818
  11. http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/823

I had even more that I'd posted here a month ago, but apparently the community here decided that, EVEN THOUGH they were peer-reviewed studies published in an accredited journal, they didn't "count" because something someone posted on a blog apparently discredited them. Since, I guess how it works is that if we're competing a blog post from someone we agree with, and pitting it against a study that has undergone massive scientific scrutiny, we go with the blog post because it already conforms to our ideology. Or something. Parogar (talk) 05:31, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Genderqueer and nonbinary

One of the most confusing things is how we perceive the gender binary. I think people are sensitive to this topic because they view my insistence in this research as an assault on those who identify as genderqueer by insinuating there are only two genders.

This could not be further from the truth. Personally, I view gender as a sliding scale. Putting aside agender for the moment, the two axis at the end of each scale would be male<------------>female

And gender roles (in my opinion) are most likely influenced by biology -- which is what predetermines on what end of the scale we sit on in the first place. I believe that male attributes and female attributes are influenced by a combination of biology and environment. But on the biological side, the influence comes from where on that gender scale we are (or if we're not there at all).

Though my arguments may come off as heavily binarist (if I used that word properly), that is only because I insist that there are only three gender "directions" for lack of a better term. None, male, and female.

But let us not forget there are only three primary colors. Yet that doesn't stop purple from existing.

Parogar (talk) 05:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that the strength of nature vs. nurture is not person specific. It is my belief (though unproven) that a person's "susceptibility" to gender roles is in itself genetic. I think some people are genetically predisposed to be MORE shaped by their environment, whereas some people will be more shaped by their genes. I think strong societal influence can very easily (if not completely dominate) weak genetic predisposition to gender roles. This is just the conclusion I've drawn from years reading about this topic.

We know that genes exist. We know that genes play a role in just about everything. We know that societal factors do as well. I think there's some unseen equation that is different in every person, and this equation takes variables, x,y,z, etc... and these variables are multiplied by "weights". These weights are a # determined by our genes. So if someone is very much predisposed to the environment, then even just coming into contact with other boys might be enough to imprint onto them that this is what they are, who they are, and how they must behave. I also think that if someone is strongly genetically predisposed to certain traits, it won't matter to them much what other boys do, because they will feel strongly compelled to act in other ways. I could be wrong about all of this. The only thing we really know for sure is that both biological and environmental factors work to shape gender roles, gender identity, etc. Beyond that is the stuff we can only speculate on. Parogar (talk) 05:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Your line still supports the binary bro, think of it as a beautiful cloud of possibility, much like sexual orientation. :D -BlackProg (talk) 05:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Well of course it does. Unless you expect me to believe in that otherkin bullshit, because that's never going to happen. I don't believe someone can be male, female, and dragon. I think all of these pathetic "otherkin" people are full of shit and I don't respect their beliefs at all. Parogar (talk) 05:54, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Why discount their beliefs or their feelings? What does that gain me or you? How does it hurt or hinder you?-BlackProg (talk) 06:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Because everyone keeps saying that aspies or people with mild autism are otherkin. And for that, I can't help but hate otherkin. Because it's basically implying that if someone's an aspie or has mild autism, then that means they're stupid enough to believe that someone can be born a mermaid. Parogar (talk) 06:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


@Blackprog If we allow ourselves to assume agender is having no gender, then I ask: what possible combination of genders can you make that do not include some % of male and some % of female? Or even better, let's throw agender back in there just to allow for every possibility. What, then, do you propose could even POSSIBLY exist? The only thing left are those crazies who think they are shadows and sky dragons or whatever. There's male, female, agender, and I don't consider transgender as a gender, because I think transgender should be classed as the gender they identify with. So if someone is a trans man, I consider them man. So, what else is there? We're not aliens from another planet. Parogar (talk) 06:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Needs a criticism section on how the sex/gender distinction is being challenged by current biology and social science. I will write up something when I get more time. This book chapter (9) is a good source. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 05:52, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


I agree. There should be a statement of fact as it pertains to the modern scientific climate. In this statement, it should be noted that the consensus that has appeared is one that suggest gender roles are both biological and environmental, but that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it is entirely biological or environmental. Then I think in a separate section (like you said) there should be sociology stuff (I have never read a book on sociology in my entire life, so I don't know much about it at all) where the scientific viewpoint is criticized. It seems to me that's the best way to do it. Because whether or not some of you guys hate the fact that science says what it says (and yes, science might very well be 100% wrong), it's not my or your fault that science says what it says, but it does say what it's saying. I don't know why people get so upset. I never took the time to bother reading sociology books because I have extremely narrow interests and I don't tend to branch out. So the fact that there's so many people who feel so passionate about this is a huge surprise to me. I never thought something like science could be so divisive.
Please tell me if I am in correct in saying the following: it's not the science, but the fear of how the science will be used that frightens people? If so, what is that fear due to? I don't know enough about the humanities to understand what is driving this opposition to my editing. I can only promise they do not come from a place of hatred or a desire to hurt anyone. Parogar (talk) 05:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, it's much like why people don't take people who post crime statistics like they're GAWD seriously. Even if they are true, they don't really mean much in terms of the supposed superiority or inferiority of a people. That and your editing for gender sometimes reads like one giant appeal to nature.BlackProg (talk) 06:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
(ec)I don't know -- I haven't been following your editing. The point isn't to make a "sociology" section where "science" is criticized. It's to show that the dichotomy is becoming outdated in light of advances in the relevant sciences. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: I misread your post. Yes, they're moving on to epigenetics. Parogar (talk) 06:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
---what I originally wrote ---
Anytime someone brings up the social aspects of gender, these days, it always seems to be someone who is doing work in the field of sociology. Last I checked (about four hours ago), the umm ... wow. I just went completely blank. What was I going to say? RIGHT RIGHT. The last I checked, scientists are increasingly becoming more certain that gender is environmental and biological. Mind you, this is not them coming FROM a position that it is environmental TO a position that it is also biological. It's directly the opposite. They've always know biology plays a role. It's only since the late twentieth century that they began to realize there's more to it than that. So the real advancements being made are to show that environment plays a role. There's no chance we're going to get to a point where scientists say that biology has no effect. And why? Because genes exist. They do. And they do stuff lol. They play a role. But I do think that powerful enough environmental pressure can override natural instinct.
In other words, I think the questions we should be asking shouldn't be, "How much of a role does biology play?" I think the relevant question to be asking is, "How much of the weak points to human nature can we overcome?" Parogar (talk) 06:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Environment has been known to play a role in biological development in general for some time. The problem we are seeing today is that this is sometimes paid lip service to with a sort of naive or vacuous interactionism that says "Both nature and nurture contribute." This is true but trivial. Proposing to partition off some trait as being 60% biological and 40% environmental (usually based on crude heritability estimates) does not solve this problem. D.O. Hebb, the neuroscientist, was once asked which he thought was more important and he responded, "Which part of the rectangle is more important, the length or the width?" Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting! See, I didn't know that and myself have often been very confused about nature vs. nurture (why don't we have a page on nature vs. nurture on RationalWiki? I think we should). This kind of thing is why I read talk pages! Nullahnung (talk) 09:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

@Parogar. You probably need to update your user page. On your List of things not worth fighting about on RationalWiki you list "gender" as one of them. And yet, here you are... --Inquisitor (talk) 06:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right. I'm not even sure what I did to get back here. I think I was just responding to someone who responded to me. Okay, I'm exiting this page now. Sorry about that. I need to remind myself not to come back here lol Parogar (talk) 06:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
This is really silly. And now you won't be able to respond when someone replies to you above with something interesting. Just cut the "I'm leaving and not coming back" crap and come and go unannounced as you feel like, that's the best way. Nullahnung (talk) 09:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah that's not quite the response I was expecting. There's a lot of shit on RW I have no interest in debating... so I don't. Just come in and say your piece. Either you'll change minds or you won't. Just drop the drama. --Inquisitor (talk) 09:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
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