Talk:Ayaan Hirsi Ali
[edit] Stop trying to make her look more reasonable than she is
Seriously she's sympathized with parts of Ander Breiviks manifesto and believes we are literally at war with Islam. She may occasionally make good points but she is not reasonable on the subject of Islam by any stretch of the imagination and there are plenty of more reasonable critics of Islam. ClothCoat (talk) 01:44, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- You need to stop injecting your personal feelings against her into the article. She is very consistent and reasonable, she explains her points well, her ideas are given a lot of credence by many respected persons. I've read all of her books and followed her doings for many years. I'd go with my edits over yours, as I've been here at Rationalwiki since it's inception, and have many years of uncontested, useful edits or a very reasonable and rational nature. On the other hand, your edits are suspect because you often inject articles with your own personal feelings against someone, feelings which are largely not held by others nor backed up by facts. Case in point, your prior removal of information about her family life, marriage and child, for no reason other than your dislike for her and refusal to treat her like a human being who has a personal life just like everyone else. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not considered an "islamaphobic" (non-standard) by people in the mainstream media, or in business and political circles. She also has many family members who are still devout followers of Islam, virtually her entire family, and she respects their beliefs and follows the customs when visiting her country of birth (Somalia) and other Muslim-majority areas of the world. The constant edits you make are from your personal bias, as is this one, as usual. I've left categories and comments on the page that I don't believe are totally valid, including your commentary, for the sake of compromise, but you need to chill out, and stop adding the same tired unsubstantiated category into this page. Refugeetalk page 20:34, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Way to have the most extreme interpretation of my actions as possible. I didn't remove refernces to her family because I hate the idea she's a "human" (WTF?) it was actually an editing mistake since I was undoing your edit that deleted MY edits, I was only trying to restore my edit I actually thought that part wqas still there. Now that you bring it up though that seems more like Wikipedia's area than Rationalwikis as its just general information but whatever I honestly don't care. And yes I can be snarky, as is this wikis point of view. You being here longer, er, means nothing to me I'll be honest. You have not actually refuted any claims that she is an "Islamophobe" (yeah it's a dumb name but I don't have a better one for "goes overboard on the Muslims").
- "“Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?” Hirsi Ali replied bluntly: “No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.”"
- I actually agree with ClothCoat here. Ali's position on human rights abuses in countries using Islam as state law was perfectly valid and the vitriolic response to her was shameful. However, Ali's experience has blinded her (perhaps understandably) to castigate anything with Islam as immoral and an enemy that needs to be defeated at all costs. Her shameful apologetic-nature for Israel's war crimes (saying Netanyahu should be given the Nobel Peace Prize) is outright monstrous. For her to say that Israel was defending itself despite the fact that it is occupying someone's land, demolishing Palestinians' homes, humiliating and beating them at checkpoints/refugee camps, uses the Palestinian Authority as a lackey (South African puppet-like government) to control the Palestinians is just so far beyond the pale. Any legitimate resistance that couches itself in Islamic language to military occupation (which all resistance groups have a right to) is castigated as being representative of the clash of civilizations. Again, whatever you may think of Hamas, Israel's own leaders (Yuval Diskin, Ephraim Halevy, Israeli Terrorism Information Center, etc.) have said Hamas has respected cease-fires which Israel has broken repeatedly (trying to assassinate Khaleed Meshall in 1997, having Shimon Peres provocatively keep Israeli settlers in Hebron after the 1994 massacre, cross-border raids that broke the 2008 five-month cease-fire, rejecting the international consensus for resolving the conflict that Hamas has agreed to). Hamas, because of the political assassinations and lack of good-faith negotiations on Israel's part (removing the blockade which, as Wikileaks confirmed, was designed to punish people in Gaza as a tool for regime change), had to respond with rocket attacks whether you agree with their tactics or not. And to say that Israel, after enforcing a blockade, destroying the chicken-farms in 2008-09, destroying a powerplant, the green-houses that were still in place, shelling hospitals, killing hundreds of children and women, etc. is deserving of a Peace Prize? Ali has become a monster. Shame on her. Her liberal-esque appeal is couched in terms supportive of state terrorism, which is hardly liberal or reasonable at all, similar to other pro-Israel liberals like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Alan Dershowitz or people who can be said to be of the Bush variety who support the War on Terror
- For more on Israel's human rights abuses and lack of abiding by the international consensus for resolving the IP conflict (164 countries in favor of two states on June 1967 borders while Israel, US, Canada and South Pacific islands are only countries voting against), see Norman Finkelstein's "Beyond Chutzpah", "Image and Reality" and "This Time We Went Too Far" {unsigned 198.7.241.85}
- Well calm yourself down... this is merely a wiki page describing a person: Ayaan Hirsi Ali - an author, politician, refugee, atheist, former Muslim, a wife, daughter, mother, public speaker, and etc. You may or may not agree with her stance on politics and religion, you may not like what she says, but you are going waaaay overboard on all this 'shame on her' and 'she's a monster' comments and such, that's just ridiculous. She's not a 'monster', a killer, or anything similar, she's just an interesting person, with her own opinions, stated quite clearly and reasonably, that don't happen to match yours, and if anyone is fanatical, it's you, not Ms. Hirsi Ali. Leave your personal rantings off the page, and just allow people to simply be informed of who she is without all this crazy junk inserted into the article. People are capable of making up their own minds, and able to form their own opinions, and if anything, they are less likely to be 'persuaded' to your side by your hysterical ravings about her, and will be more likely to look into her opinions and actions by themselves. This wiki is not meant to push anyone's biased political points, we get it, you don't like her, but just leave your personal rants out of the article, it's not yours to define, and it's already become too one-sided.
- Why is that overboard to describe someone as a monster who supported Israel's recent war that killed over 500 children? Am I going overboard when I say that a Islamist-activist defends the misogynistic practices of Islam as a state religion is a monster? If my arguments are personal rantings, then please dispute the points I raised other than going through a slew of ad-hominem attacks by describing it as "crazy junk". If my arguments are hysterical ravings, then please dispute them rather than castigate it as "biased" and "personally driven". I must have struck an unsettling chord in you because I introduced a reasonable (key word here) criticism of her position as a human rights activist rather than salivate over her, as you seem to do. Why can't we criticize political authors? Are some people off-limits? Because that seems to be what you're doing and you're no better than Islamic sympathizers who decry any criticism of Islam as Islamophobia. If anything, the only person who's espousing personal rants is you rather than argue the points I raised. If my points are not reasonable or fair, then debate them. Because all you did was type a paragraph without even addressing anything I said.
- Of course, because you brought up a lot of things that have nothing to do with her personally. If you want to debate other subjects in detail, find the proper page. Seriously, chill out. Not everyone is going to agree with your opinions, that does not make them monsters. You are not the final judge of what is "right". Again, it's a simple page describing a public figure, not a place to rehash a lot of your personal biases. Refugeetalk page 18:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- I don't really care what you guys are talking about but there are several quotes now (including the page quote) that prove Ayaan goes to extremes to oppose ALL Islam and Refugee you're the ONLY one talking about how she's a mother and so on nobody else here gives a shit we're mainly here to analyze her political career and viewpoints you're the only one dragging out her family to bizarrely dismiss everybody that seems to disagree with her. Could you at least refute the page quote where she's conspiracy theorizing about Islam in universities or my quote where she basically says we must defeat ALL Islam and that she thinks we're at war with Islam? To the BoN focus more on Ayaan not Israel don't go off topic please. ClothCoat (talk) 21:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Of course, because you brought up a lot of things that have nothing to do with her personally. If you want to debate other subjects in detail, find the proper page. Seriously, chill out. Not everyone is going to agree with your opinions, that does not make them monsters. You are not the final judge of what is "right". Again, it's a simple page describing a public figure, not a place to rehash a lot of your personal biases. Refugeetalk page 18:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- Why is that overboard to describe someone as a monster who supported Israel's recent war that killed over 500 children? Am I going overboard when I say that a Islamist-activist defends the misogynistic practices of Islam as a state religion is a monster? If my arguments are personal rantings, then please dispute the points I raised other than going through a slew of ad-hominem attacks by describing it as "crazy junk". If my arguments are hysterical ravings, then please dispute them rather than castigate it as "biased" and "personally driven". I must have struck an unsettling chord in you because I introduced a reasonable (key word here) criticism of her position as a human rights activist rather than salivate over her, as you seem to do. Why can't we criticize political authors? Are some people off-limits? Because that seems to be what you're doing and you're no better than Islamic sympathizers who decry any criticism of Islam as Islamophobia. If anything, the only person who's espousing personal rants is you rather than argue the points I raised. If my points are not reasonable or fair, then debate them. Because all you did was type a paragraph without even addressing anything I said.
- Hey "ClothCoat" when you start your talk page comment with "I don't really care what you guys are talking about" then there is obviously no reason for you to comment, and it is beyond comprehension why you did so. 2. Don't use vulgar language towards me, if I haven't used it with you - which I haven't - it's offensive and shows your lack of manners. 3. It's ridiculous how you presume to know what everyone else thinks and then make a blanket statement on their behalf about what they care about. 4. No, I won't "refute the page quote" as you commanded - I will respond to the comments that I choose to give my attention to, and furthermore, it's annoying that you assume you have the right to instruct me on what to respond to. You've got to be kidding. This is a small wiki, with scattered articles on random topics, and while it was fun when I started here in 2007 (when it was created as a response to Conservapedia), it's been quite a while since I was very active here or had enough time to try to keep articles informative and unbiased. This page was a good starting point on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but it can go in whatever direction anyone likes, I don't really care. I am not the designated defender of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and I am not going to debate her opinions on politics or religion, or any subject for that matter. In conclusion, don't direct another remark to me, as I have absolutely no intention of replying to further comments from some random internet idiot. Refugeetalk page 04:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- To Refugee: you're not understanding what I'm saying. She is an author, and her comments are on subjects have nothing to do with her personally, but her stance on that specific subject. Pundits with political stances (whether it be Bill O'Reilly or Bill Maher) are fair game for criticism in RationalWiki when they make comments on subjects they are ill-informed of what they're saying. For example, criticizing Bill Maher for his stance on GMOs and anti-vaccine woo is not an attack on him, but a legitimate critique of his stances. Similarly, I don't know why I can't make criticisms of Hirsi Ali on Israel. Hirsi Ali is listed as a pundit, so to say that criticism of her on the basis of her support of Israel is very much on-topic. That is not a personal bias, but the very essence of criticism. The reason why I shared the information on Israel in relation to Hirsi Ali was answering the concern whether she was a reasonable person or a wingnut. And my point was, based on the evidence I accumulated concerning the IP conflict and her flawed stance on it, she is not as reasonable as one says she is. You can disagree with me, but you're going to have to find where I erred.
- To Refugee. 1) I was trying to be polite and stay out of that discussion and instead focus on the original claim, that she's an "Islamophobe". 2) I wasn't aware I was speaking to a nun my apologies I won't do it again. 3) ? I was going by your actions. You constantly bring up her family and it was YOU who originally made extreme statements based on very minor actions, such as claiming I didn't think of her as a "human" because I deleted a second reference to her family. What am I supposed to think? 4) "I have evidence she is an Islamophobe" "NO SHE'S NOT YOU'RE JUST BIASED" "Well here's my evidence" "IT'S NOT MY JOB TO REFUTE YOUR EVIDENCE". How am I suppose to "win" this debate, exactly? Also Rationalwiki outright states it is not without "bias", it's just snarky and attacks obvious crackpots. I think this page IS fair to her, sometimes she makes good points and sometimes she goes too far. The BoN is correct in that not every criticism of her ideas is an attack against her. Your last part is just you insulting me and putting your fingers in your ears and screaming, I'm adding her to the category now since you haven't proved anything. And don't say you don't care you obviously do and your argument was pretty clearly that she is not an "Islamophobe", but then you just didn't do anything to prove it. ClothCoat (talk) 07:09, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- The term "Islamophobia" is controversial, so well ... In any case, I don't see a lot of information/examples in the article right now, except for the quote at the top of the page (I removed the remark about Breivik, because I wasn't able to find the claim in the article in the source text, she just tried to explained some of his motives, which is always a valid thing to do) ... Perhaps you should first focus on making the article better, rather than fighting over what category belongs here (it's not that important) ;-) Carpetsmoker (talk) 10:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Ayaan & Anders
I see the support for Breivik bit was removed, and I agree about it being way too ambiguous to remain in its former guise. However, I considered adding a variant of it on the lines of this (the problem is whether it becomes overly long):She has also, while condemning his neofascism, accepted Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik's claim that he was driven to kill due to his Islamophobia being stifled in Norwegian public discourse.
REF: Conservative Think Tank Scholar Promotes Claim That Norway Terrorist Attacked Because He Was Censored, Think Progress (and specifically the embedded YouTube clip: AEI Scholar Ayaan Hirsi Ali Gives Voice To Norwegian Anti-Muslim Terrorist's Justification). Even a sympathetic review on Freethought Blogs (Silence empowers the Neo-Nazis) supports this interpretation by buying into Ali's claim that "Decades of informal censorship in Europe have led not to the promised integration of Muslim immigrants but to a culture of evasion and avoidance which has allowed extremism – both Jihadism and neo-Nazism – to flourish amid a general impotence of the established parties." ENDREF
Here, Ali clearly accepts the bullshit being pushed by Breivik and other Islamophobes that there has been some sort of decade-long "conspiracy of silence" to exclude any criticism of Islam from public discourse. Having spent most of my thirty-odd years of life in Scandinavia, I can say that this is absolutely BS. Indeed, the (Norwegian) Progress Party has flourished by appealing to xenophobia primarily targeting Islam, as has the Danish People's Party (and before it the (Danish) Progress Party) since at least the mid-1990s.
My guess is that Ali conflates Islamophobia á la her own and Breivik's with "criticism of Islam" and if their arguments are rejected and not actively promoted by others, this constitutes "silencing". I'd actually argue that not since before the Enlightenment has Islam been criticised so much (and not without reason, mind you) as it was when Breivik started killing people and it still is today (very apropos of the recent Islamic terrorist shootings in Copenhagen, btw).
Furthermore, Ali's (and Breivik's) scapegoating of "the established parties" is essentially coded victim blaming, considering that most of Breivik's victims were members of the youth wing of one of the largest of these parties, the (Norwegian) Labour Party. This victim blaming is also an almost perfect mirror image of some Christian fundies who, while disavowing the Islamist ideology (duh) of the Charlie Hebdo mass murderers, still accepted the murderers' premise: That media shouldn't "provoke" or "insult" people's religious sentiments. The difference is that while Ali/Breivik think they're the victims of "informal censorship", the complaint against Charlie Hebdo is that it's not exercising "informal censorship". ScepticWombat (talk) 09:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your points as such are valid, but I'm not big on "she supports part of what Breivik supports!"-type of arguments. You can be a mass-murderer *and* still be correct on some issues. Indeed, you can even be a mass-murderer and be correct on *all* of your points... You point out Ayaan's bullshit without involving Anders. She did the same blah-blah about not being able to criticise Islam while in Dutch parliament, long before anyone knew who Breivik was... Carpetsmoker (talk) 13:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think there's a pretty big gap between saying that "informal censorship" is bad and absolving yourself of blame by rehashing Breivik's argument which essentially links this BS claim to the (Norwegian) Labour Party (along with the other "established parties") and thus strongly implying that they're ultimately responsible for the massacre. That crosses the line from mere association to endorsement of victim blaming. Considering the (I think wholly appropriate) indignation over Pope Francis' comments about insulting someone's mother and the Charlie Hebdo massacre, not to mention the outright victim blaming by William Donohue, I don't see why it's somehow less fitting to include Ali's appropriation of a mass murderer's justification. The rejections of the religious or political motives are also commonalities between Donohue and Ali.
- It was of course not me who decided on "involving Anders", but Ali herself. Not to mention that she did it in an acceptance speech after having received a journalistic prize "for her courage and her commitment to freedom". She could easily have made the same points by using the example of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons instead, since the argument (or at least the loudest proclaimed one) for publishing those was also a worry over creeping "informal censorship", particularly self-censorship. ScepticWombat (talk) 14:28, 19 February 2015 (UTC)