Difference between revisions of "User talk:RobSmith"

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Nice one Dick.  Also, Nobbies, I presume that whenever I'd like to quote Paul Krugman on any issue in the future - the Nobel Prize-winning Paul Krugman, I might add - you'll be happy to bow to his views?  Oh yes I'm sure. {{User:Human/sig|}} 09:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 
Nice one Dick.  Also, Nobbies, I presume that whenever I'd like to quote Paul Krugman on any issue in the future - the Nobel Prize-winning Paul Krugman, I might add - you'll be happy to bow to his views?  Oh yes I'm sure. {{User:Human/sig|}} 09:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
:Mr. Krugman has also [http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf published a paper in 1978] that cited a work from 1987 (also by Krugman, as it happens). Krugman rocks. [[Special:Contributions/68.147.139.21|68.147.139.21]] ([[User talk:68.147.139.21|talk]]) 09:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
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:(EC)No, of course not! Krugman suddenly lost all credibility a few comments above! From now on, Rob will bow to <i>Obama's</i> views and turn CP into a pro-Obama blog. [[User:Röstigraben|Röstigraben]] ([[User talk:Röstigraben|talk]]) 09:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
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::Mr. Krugman has also [http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf published a paper in 1978] that cited a work from 1987 (also by Krugman, as it happens). Krugman rocks. [[Special:Contributions/68.147.139.21|68.147.139.21]] ([[User talk:68.147.139.21|talk]]) 09:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
  
 
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== Remotion ==

Revision as of 09:19, 17 May 2010


Help me understand.

Are conservatives for or against offshore drilling? I am serious because I cannot figure it out. Acei9 02:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

For it, except for right now, when they have to pretend to be against it. Tetronian you're clueless 02:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Tet, but I do want to hear from Rob as he is a conservative. Acei9 02:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Conservatives oppose the senseless slaughter of innocent sea turtles, blue tuna, wind plover, brown pelican, shrimp, oyster, and menhaden for greed and profit, which obviously was a priority in the First 100 Days when on 6 April 2009 Obama granted BP an exclusion to the proper environmental impact assessment (EIA) required by law after taking more money from BP than any other candidate in 20 years.
P.S. Take off this goddam petty & vindictive vandalbin. nobsdon't bother me 02:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't think you are in the vandal bin. I'll check for you. Anyway - where were you saying the above when Palin was saying "Drill baby, Drill"? You will deride environmentalists, who take a stand to "oppose the senseless slaughter of innocent sea turtles, blue tuna, wind plover, brown pelican, shrimp, oyster, and menhaden for greed and profit". So you see my confusion? Acei9 03:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
If a communist Muslim Kenyan is for it, Rob's against it? ħumanUser talk:Human 03:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I think this was Barack Obama's first attempt to be Bill Clinton, and it blew up in his face. It's called "triangulation" (see Dick Morris). The problem is Obama's positioned himself so far outside the mainstream of America, the Democratic Party, and even African-Americans (Blacks for example, church going god-fearing people that many are, oppose gay marriage in greater numbers than the population as a whole, whereas Obama describes himself as a "fierce defender" of gay rights) he has no credibility when adopting the pose of a compromiser. So all the elements of a tragedy are in place. nobsdon't bother me 03:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree, Obama's biggest mistake has been to give the GOP and their "ideas" the time of day. Complete waste of diplomatic skills. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Hitler was into animal rights too, Rob, just like you. True Christians know that animals were put here for people to use or waste as they see fit, and a few here and there don't make much difference. Maybe you should think about where your loyalties really lie. --Kels (talk) 03:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Hitler was also fiercely anti-tobacco and we know Obama smokes cigarettes. But Obama & the Democrats also raised the cigarette tax on poor people whose one cheap enjoyment in an otherwise dismal existence was taken from them on day 15 of the Obama administration. It wouldn't be so bad if there were jobs to pay for the higher cigarette prices, but nobodies working now and nobody is likely to work in the foreseeable future.
Contrast that now with Bush & the Republicans; they controlled Congress & the White House exclusively for several years and made many mistakes. But not once was it ever even considered to oppress poor people by taking their sole consolation in this life away. Obama and the Democrats did it in 15 days. Why? Simple answer. People are too stupid to know what's good for them, so they need Obama and the Democrats of dictate how to live thier lives for them. The same thing happened again with fines for failing to have health insurance. And at some point somebody's child has to be taken away for child neglect -- failing to provide food, clothing and health insurance as required by law -- to prove the law is enforceable. nobsdon't bother me 04:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Cigarettes were far from cheap by the time Obama took power. Moving my camels from $50+/carton to $65/carton (combined national and NH state increase last year) was only a 30% jack up. When I quite smoking (hah!) back in the mid 80s cigs were $5 a carton. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Okay Rob, what would your position be if Obama had taken the position from the left of his party and placed a moratorium on off-shore drilling in order to prevent there ever being the possibility of an oil spill causing the senseless slaughter of innocent sea turtles, blue tuna, wind plover, brown pelican, shrimp, oyster, and menhaden? - π 04:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

The tobacco thing is a red herring. We are talking about the oil slick and how conservatives seem to be suddenly against it. I am curious of the response to Pi. Acei9 04:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Wow Rob, that's a pretty sad indictment of American capitalism if smoking is the "sole consolation in this life" for the poor. And it is not being "taken away" is is being made more expensive, there is a difference but I don't expect the politically blind to see anything that they don't want too.  Lily Inspirate me. 06:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Apart from this, do you realize how strange it is for you to bring in Paul Krugman as the chief witness against Obama? If you're not familiar with his views, he wanted a bigger stimulus, stronger regulations of the financial industry, and single-payer health care. He opposed Obama's policies from the left, which means you guys are closer to Obama than to him on these matters. Röstigraben (talk) 06:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Also Rob, I see you are reiterating the lie that BP as a corporate entity gave Obama some money, when from your reference (if you follow it to the original source rather than cite a second hand blog post) those donations are those made by individual BP employees. Also a grand total of $77,000 is hardly likely to put Obama in hock to BP (no longer British Petroleum by the way but distorting the facts to cast aspersions on foreigners is probably CP policy). I'm sure Obama didn't even know where most of his contributions came from and surely didn't have the time to add up all the $2300 (is that a magic number?), $1000 & $500 contributions. If you bother to do some math you will find that Exxon employees gave even more.
As for the EIA I suspect that even if had been done it would have been identical to the others that were done for the dozens of deep water rigs in the Gulf of Mexico and wouldn't have made one iota of difference to what has happened. But keep on slinging the muck because some of it is bound to stick, isn't it?  Lily Inspirate me. 07:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's a nice link to Big Oil political donations from the same source that lists those individual BP donors. Historically the Republicans have received alnost 3 times the funding that the Dems have received. --Explorationist (talk) 09:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC) Also BP only ranks 9th in the list of poltical donors for 2008 and gave 61% to Republicans vs 39% to Democrats (for 2010 the're not even in the top 20). This Rob fellow sure knows how to cherry-pick his facts. Explorationist (talk) 09:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Facts have a commie bias. Bondurant (talk) 09:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
When gas at the pump hits $4 a gallon and people spend $600 to $1000 (more than housing costs) a month to get to work, Obama like Bush, will be blamed for floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes, too (here's my favorite of all time [1]) And $4 a gal is unavoidable -- if you ever wanna see Recovery again. The spill speeds up the timeframe of higher oil prices along with a different set of economic variables to retard Recovery and growth in employment. nobsdon't bother me 12:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
You didn't answer my question. - π 12:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
If I interpret your confused comment in the most benign way, you seem to be arguing that the spill will result in higher oil prices, and that Obama should be blamed for this increase. Not only has this got nothing to do with the phony environmentalism you originally based your argument on, but it's not terribly convincing either. The loss of a single platform won't impact the supply of oil in any meaningful way in the short term, and in the long term, the only plausible effect would be a slower expansion of domestic oil production (resulting in higher prices) if Obama jettisons his plans for domestic offshore drilling due to concerns about similar catastrophes. Which, uh, is what you seem to want him to do. So could you please make up your mind about this issue? Are you concerned about the environment, or about the oil price? And if it's the latter, would you be opposed to measures designed to reduce oil consumption, which would also deflate the price? Röstigraben (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The shrimping industry may be gone for the rest of your's and my lifetime. Closure of the Port of New Orleans means truckers will go back to work, as everything has to be hauled to and from other major ports on the west coast or east coast. Ultimatley, the economic disaster in the works is a bigger problem than the environmental disaster. And the Recovery is so precarious at this point, the permanent loss of whole industries after temporary employment in cleanup is the real story. The US spent $350 billion to rebuild New Orleans after Katrina. The city is threatened again with becoming a ghost town since tourism & fishing may be gone for ever.
If that hole isn't plugged up soon, and the experts are quick to say they never did it before nor really know how, we're looking at something much bigger than a garden variety environmental catastrophe. nobsdon't bother me 20:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
So...your position on oil drilling? ~ Kupochama[1][2] 20:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The opposite of whatever Obama's position is. --Kels (talk) 20:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Once again, you simply refuse to answer the question and drive off on some tangent instead. First the environment, then the oil price, now local fisheries. You never bother to defend your arguments, but discard them after one failed attempt at convincing others, and quickly jump to another one. Sorry, but this makes it impossible for me to believe you're actually sincere about any of your supposed concerns (some of which are valid, but stand in stark contrast to the Conservapedia party line). Instead, it simply looks like CP is a pure anti-Obama hate blog, and you'll latch onto anything that would let you criticise him, no matter if it contradicts the philosophies and policies you guys claim to uphold and promote. Well, at least you feel the need to justify your part in CP's ongoing hypocrisy, no matter how inept you are at doing so. Röstigraben (talk) 20:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the kind comments. In reality, I don't like having to take positions on contemporary issues; I'm much more interested in historical writing and historical questions. for some reason I always get dragged into these contemporary political discussions, but my role is really more as a chronicler of events. nobsdon't bother me 06:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Let me offer you a theory why you "always get dragged into these contemporary political discussions:" I suggest you read this page. How is it not a "contemporary political" comment to pretend that only Obama is responsible for the spill, as opposed to, I dunno, BP themselves, or the relaxation of regulations under the Bush administration? The reason is, you're a political hack and conspiracy theorist who poses at being a historian simply by including a bunch of footnotes in your screeds, many of which have been pointed out to you to say the opposite of what you claim them to (ahem, Krugman), while you ignore the constant challenges to their veracity. Junggai (talk) 07:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Rob, are you in favour of offshore drilling in US waters?

Please respond. DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 20:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, so long as it's done in somebody else's backyard. My position is roughly the same as Obama & Obama supporters minus the environmentalists (including Environmentalist Against the War). The position being, when in the opposition to call anyone for drilling a fascist, when in power and reality sets do what is necessary for the good of the country. nobsdon't bother me 00:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Someone elses backyard? You mean not off the United States or just not off your part of the United States? Acei9 01:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm all for Britain, Norway, Vietnam, Cuba and the Spratly Islands doing offshore, but the US has legitimate environmental concerns. If I had to bottomline this, basically weaning the US & the planet off fossil fuels & developing alternative energy sources is China's problem. The US is no longer in the leadership role. nobsdon't bother me 02:01, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
You are kinda all over the place Rob, firstly you say yes you are for offshore drilling off the coast of the US then you say no, only off the coast of other countries. You follow this up by claiming that the US has legitimate environment concerns as if to say other countries do not. Then you want to wean the world of oil but that is Chinas problem to develop new energy sources. Please try and make some sense. Acei9 02:20, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Why does the US have "legitimate environmental concerns" but Britain, Norway et al do not? --DamoHi 03:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it was misstated. US reserves are finite, but its appetite seems infinite. Since 1973 with the first oil shock I've seen the US public waver back and forth between high priority to lessen dependence on foreign oil back to complacency, like during the Clinton era when SUVs were in vogue and gas at the pump was cheaper than bottled spring water. Bottomline, the public doesn't care, and neither does its elected leaders. So it's China's problem now. Chinese demand drives the prices, and Chinese demand will drive the technological improvement necessary to cheapen the cost of alternative fuels. The US is nolonger in the leadership position in this. nobsdon't bother me 05:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
@ Damo, because they have safety rules in place. @ Rob, thanks for trying to finally answer the question. I think. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:30, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
What, Rob, would others - China, for example - be expected to reasonably make of America's complete abdication of responsibility towards its own gluttony under your proposal? Is that a policy of which you would approve were the US President to promote it? How does that practically anti-American attitude fit with conservative thinking? DogPMarmite Patrol 05:31, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
While the US remains a formidable military power, and a largest economic power in terms of GDP, those days are numbered. The trade deficit, coupled with a looming federal default on its operating budget really spell the end of the United States post-1945 hegemonic Superpower status. And this all comes to a head c.2017.
This isn't a matter of policy, or ideology, it's just the economic realities. nobsdon't bother me 06:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Indeed, Rob, I agree. If LBJ and Reagan hadn't spent us into the ground with a dumb war and dumb tax cuts respectively, we might still have a hope to rule the world. Or at least have a domestic manufacturing base. And on the last, I know what I speak of. ħumanUser talk:Human 06:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree both on this apocalyptic scenario and US responsibility for global energy policy, but you really should archive this page first before we switch to that discussion (if you'd like to debate these points). It's become a real mess. Röstigraben (talk) 06:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, Human & I share some common experiences. The American people always were reluctant to lead the world post-1945, being isolationist by nature. As to China, it is the cost of conversion to alternative fuels that is prohibitive, for Americans at least. Barely 3% (maybe slightly more) of Chinese have automobiles now with their growing prosperity, but that was enough to push gas at the pump in the US to $4+ per gallon; then the recession hit. When global recovery resumes, Chinese demand will push price to $6, $9, $12. And there isn't a damn thing American can do about it by whining to their Congressmen. On the Chinese end, they just don't have all the jobs in auto manufacturing, part, parts distribution, transportation, repair, etc etc etc that the US has. So as demand for vehicles in China increases and costs for petroleum become prohibitive, they at least have the unencumbered and healthy economic resources to devote to R&D for alternative fuels that may become cheaper in the long run. And the US and the rest of the world will just be in a copy-cat position. nobsdon't bother me 07:07, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. Now, first of all, you admit that that "US appetite for oil seems infinite", that US citizens carelessly purchased inefficient gas-guzzlers back in the day when oil prices were noticeably lower, and that US politicians showed little will to act on this problem by encouraging their citizens to reign in their energy consumption. Fine, I agree on all of these points. Second, you claim that the main reason for the enormous increase in oil prices that we saw from 2003 to 2008 (until the sharp drop at the onset of the recent global recession) is increased Chinese demand. It's true that Chinese energy consumption in general and oil consumption in particular has seen a massive increase during that period, due to China's rapidly expanding economy and rising standard of living (however, China is not the only rapidly developing country in the world, just the most prominent one). However, let's have a quick look at two numbers: total national oil consumption and oil consumption per capita. You can find them here. The US consumes about 2.5 times as much oil as China (which isn't surprising, given its overall larger economy), and appears to be more energy-efficient, a difference that would be even more pronounced if you looked at total energy consumption, and not just oil. However, remember that China has about four times as many people as the USA, and compare the per capita consumption of both countries. The figure for the US is about ten times higher, and still twice that of most other nations at comparable stages of economic development (see Japan and the Western European nations). Based on these figures, I'd conclude that the US has a huge untapped potential for energy savings, since equally developed nations appear to be able to make do with much less oil while still enjoying a comparable standard of living. Given China's rapid development, its consumption can be expected to increase in both total and per capita terms, though you'll probably agree that it's got a long way to go until it reaches US levels. So, that's the demand side of the equation, let's look at the supply side next. Predictions about future oil production are notoriously unreliable, but there seems to be a rough consensus that we're either at or at most a decade away from peak oil, so future increases in global consumption will inevitably drive the price further up, until a global economy dependent on oil becomes unsustainable. Now, who's responsible for this, and who should take the lead in reigning in consumption? Is it China, which is still a developing country no matter how you look at it, and is far behind the US in its technology? Is it Europe, still consuming much more energy than any developing nation, but about twice as efficient as the Northern American nations? Or is it the US, the world's largest economy (which it will still be in 2017, unless China triples its GDP in those seven years), with one of the highest rates of consumption worldwide, and which has enjoyed one of the highest living standards in the world for well over a century now? Eventually, all of these nations will have to make strides to increase their efficiency, but you'll probably agree that a country that is both the biggest consumer in absolute terms and one of the least efficient ones has the largest potential for savings, and stands to lose the most if they don't adapt quickly and prepare for the inevitable supply crunch. Now, if you agree that reducing US oil consumption would be a good thing simply in its own interest, let's have a look at how it could be done. Why is the individual oil consumption in Europe so much lower than in the US, and why do Europeans, on average, drive more efficient cars? Simple answer: fuel taxes are much higher in most European nations (Germany, for example, adds about 6 Dollars per gallon in taxes). Has it brought the European economies to its knees? No. Has it resulted in drastically lower standards of living? No. I'd even argue that the high share of taxes in the overall gas price has had another beneficial effect when the crude oil price went through the roof two years ago: the relative increase in the price you have to pay at the gas station was much less pronounced than in the US, resulting in a less acute pressure on the consumer to adapt his habits. So, if we can agree on these points, we'll have to conclude that government intervention in the market (by means of higher taxes) has resulted in increased economic efficiency and better adaption to inevitable future oil market developments. But if you tried to argue these points on Conservapedia, even a longtime editor and sysop such as yourself would quicly get the boot for disagreeing with Andy's insane orthodoxy. Apart from purely economic reasons, bemoaning the adverse environmental effects of fossile fuel consumption would get you branded a communist (unless you can somehow pin the blame on Obama). Pointing out that CP has advocated even more extreme versions of an energy policy that denies the need to reduce oil dependency would also result in a swift block. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong, though: just bring up any of these issues over at CP, don't relent if Andy or somebody else provides only evasive answers, and let's see where that gets you. Godspeed. Röstigraben (talk) 08:18, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
An excellent little essay, unfortunately you wasted it by giving it to Rob. You may as well have written it on paper and flushed it down the bog. CrundyTalk nerdy to me 08:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
We'll see, I haven't given up on him yet. I'd just like to find out how someone who at least claims to share so many of my concerns can draw the conclusion that propping up CP and its insane policy recommendations is a worthwhile endeavour. Röstigraben (talk) 09:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Momentqry digression: I get accused of non sequiters but you go from a well-reasoned argument for gas taxes to discourage consumption to an attack on CP and Andy whom you name by name twice; I'll just leave that alone.Let's begin with cite that shows US oil consumption is 2.5 times China's. Have you read the this CRS report f(the material your Congressman reads) from last fall, excerpted,
Annual vehicle output has increased from less than 2 million vehicles in the late 1990s to 9.5 million in 2008. In terms of production volume in 2008, China has surpassed Korea, France, Germany, and the United States, trailing only Japan. ... From January to October 2009, more than 10 million vehicles were sold in China. If such growth continues, China is on its way to becoming world’s largest auto market.
Where does the future lie? They build autos with probably less than $500 in labor and rolls off the assembly line for about $1500. If you can buy a franchise for these Chinese built cars, do it. The shipping cost from China to Long Beach California probably equals the production cost, then maybe another $1500 or $2000 to have it trucked to where you live. So for about a $5000 unit cost investment, you market it to the consumer with a competitive sales price of say $17,000-$22,000.
Now the same car sells back in China for about $1500, which is the producers primary market. They don't have the infrastructure, roads, bridges, gas stations, repair shops, highway signs, stop lights, one-way streets, etc. So there's immense possibilities for growth. True as you say, China is not alone in driving global demand, and these countries like China, India and Indonesia also subsidize consumption. Its a cultural phenomenon, owning a private passenger vehicle is linked up with the idea of prosperity. Those governments are not about to discourage vehicle production, ownership, and oil consumption cause everyone believes it's the samething as prosperity.
The US by contrast is a mature economy. It's tough overcoming decades of mistakes, and chronic ailments. We can't afford to convert off oil, it's just impractical. But the growing economies, with large populations and uncommitted resources that could be used to develop an alternative cost efficient substitute to crude oil ultimately will do so. The reason being, it just impractical think these large populous countries can build enough single passenger vehicles to support 2 billion people that use petroleum products. If they want to be prosperous and avoid the pitfalls that snagged the West, they can begin committing the resources now to develop alternative fuels for their consumers. We can't. They must. nobsdon't bother me 01:00, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
What a load of tree-hugging environmentalist liberal communist bullshit. StarDelta (talk) 01:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Drill, baby, drill! --Kels (talk) 02:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

(Unindent)Let me get this straight: because the US is a mature economy, it shouldn't be expected to decrease its dependence on oil, but the Chinese, Indians et al. are supposed to develop alternative cutting-edge technologies before they ever reach that level of overall economic development? You probably didn't follow the Copenhagen summit last year, but let me tell you that one huge issue during the negotiations (that didn't get anywhere) was the idea of technology transfers to the developing countries, because the patents for the most highly-developed technologies for renewables and increasing energy efficiency are held by Western and Japanese companies, and couldn't be introduced at market price into budding consumer markets with much, much lower average purchasing power. Next, you claim it's impossible for a highly developed nation to get off fossile fuel usage - well, why do you think I provided the European example, if not to show how countries that are very similar to the US could pull it off and provide a blueprint? By the way, I was surprised you called my argument "well-reasoned" (thanks), because the way I described is obviously one of these socialist/environmentalist schemes of strategic market distortion which you guys seem to hate so much. The only difference between Europe and the USA is - as you yourself admitted - the higher acceptance of such measures among Europeans and, consequently, a higher political will to carry them out. Now here's where we get back at CP: if you lament the fact that US politicians aren't willing to take a long-term view and do something similar to discourage oil consumption, why the hell are you involved in a propaganda effort that, among other things, tries to convince people that such action is not only unnecessary, but downright evil, if not deliberately designed to bring the US to its knees from within? Röstigraben (talk) 06:36, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not that China (say) will have to implement cutting edge tech - it's that it's easier for them, since they aren't as invested in the old stuff. Look at how developing nations have gone straight to cell phones - they never had the land line wires in place by the time cell tech was ubiquitous and easy to implement. The question is, though, whether they can invent and develop it, or just use the latest tech from the "West". ħumanUser talk:Human 19:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Exactly, human. And very good analogy. nobsdon't bother me 01:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I'll stick to China as well, because I don't know much about the situation in other major developing countries. First of all, the stuff Rob posted about China "not having the infrastructure, roads, bridges etc..." is obviously nonsense. Outside of sparsely populated areas such as Xinjiang and Tibet, China has already built an extensive network of expressways, and its major metropolitan areas are flushed with privately-owned cars, buses and the ubiquitous taxi cabs. Believe me, you wouldn't want to experience one of Beijing's infamous traffic congestions. Also, Rob is right about the number of newly produced cars, and the vast majority of these are sold on the domestic market. So it's not like China is only just now entering the oil age, nor can they conveniently leapfrog it: hybrid vehicles (not to mention electric cars) are pretty sophisticated and expensive pieces of technology, and while they are being sold in China, only a small minority of consumers can afford them. China's domestic automobile companies are targetting newly emerging customer classes, with prices (and, accordingly, quality) tending towards the low end of the spectrum (by the way, Rob, your plan about selling Chinese cars in the US wouldn't work, because almost none of them meet Western safety standards). The Chinese car makers are simply working with the market they've got, and it's not one in which extensive investments into R&D in order to produce expensive high-tech cars would pay off. It's not unlike the situation in the US: GM, Chrysler and Ford used to reap huge profits on their line-up of gaz-guzzling SUVs, until that market evaporated after the oil price hike. And it's not like the sage Chinese government can simply mandate the adoption of more long-term strategies overnight - they stake their legitimacy completely on their success in improving the living standard of their people, and they also have to walk a fine line between giving the Chinese the toys and jobs they want on the one hand, and gradually increasing fuel efficiency standards and investments into renewables on the other. Which is arguably more than the US has been doing, at least under the Bush government. And my point is simply that even if both the US and China have a similarly low threshold of popular acceptance for measures designed to discourage excessive energy consumption, the former can and should make bigger strides towards that goal because of their superior technology and much larger wealth. Röstigraben (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, the comments about Copenhagen and the patent royalties is just one component part of cost that developing nations must pay (or compensate) as they wrestle with the problem of delivering the consumer demand for passenger vehicles to roughly one third of the planet's population. It's their problem. All things being equal, if you wish to compare current crude consumption rates in China & elsewhere to the US, look at the ratio of registered vehicles on the road to population in the United States, which is roughly twice the number of workers in the US, or more than one and half times the adult population. If China alone were to set a goal one vehicle per adult, that would be approximately 600 million more vehicles, or roughly a doubling of existing vehicles worldwide. Then let's factor in India & Indonesia setting the same goals. Then let's imagine someday they reach the same maturity the US has of having one and half vehicles per adult, or two vehicles per worker. While in 50 or 60 years (maybe less) these goals may be obtainable, it's hard to imagine a scenario under which these passenger vehicles would consume fossil fuels with and average of 35 MPG. I've heard it said the next cheapest alternative fuel would cost in relative terms to petroleum about $80 per gallon (this would include the conversion cost of leasing or buying patent rights). It's just not up to the US, or for that matter EU, to figure out how to overcome these costs. It's the developing nations problem, and they are the only ones with the resources to develop alternatives. It's a simple choice on their part, pay the price or maintain a third world status. nobsdon't bother me 01:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, I'm tired of repeating myself, so let me just do a quick point-by-point refutation of your latest nonsense.
  • If I want to compare current oil consumption rates between countries, I'll look at these statistics directly, as I have done, not at the number of vehicles. The latter might be marginally useful for measuring living standards and predicting future demand in developing countries, but obviously doesn't take efficiency into account.
  • You obviously have no clue about international fuel efficiency laws. These are already more stringent in China, compared to the US, and well above 35 MPG - here's a helpful link to your favourite reliable source.
  • I can't begin to imagine where you picked up that 80$ number. The cheapest renewable replacement for regular gasoline is ethanol, or biofuel, which is already extensively used in blends, without resulting in drastically higher prices. Its production is heavily subsidized, so I can't easily estimate its precise real cost, but it would be nowhere near the number you quoted. That said, I'm not too big a fan of burning food for transportation, but ethanol is the most realistic short-to-middle-term replacement.
  • Your last paragraph almost reads like you believe that only the developing nations will have to bear higher prices when their demand increases; hence, it would be their problem. Rob, once again, global oil prices will steadily increase in the future, and each nation has a self-interest in adapting to this inevitable development as soon as possible and make the transition off fossile fuels go smoothly. Everyone will have to face the end of the oil age and prepare for it, and even discounting any moral obligations, the developed world is in a much better position to simply save its own ass, if its citizens would only wake up to reality.
So, by promoting complacency and arguing that the world's largest oil consumer can lean back and do nothing, you're effectively calling for running the US economy headlong into a wall. Some patriot you are. Röstigraben (talk) 07:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comparing consumption rates of a finite resource (oil) to the infinite demand of consumers for automobiles (assuming Jesus doesn't return) is apples and oranges.
  • Fuel standards of a finite resource in theory stretch out the time before total depletion. Comparisons between the US & China has little impact on consumption rates, as China has only a fraction of vehicles on the roaqd that the US does. Again, the rate of growth of manufacturing demand for new vehicles is a much larger factor.
  • $80 I think applies to hydrogen fuel cell.
  • You last comment on global prices sounds like your beginning to agree with the points I've made. nobsdon't bother me 06:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Once more unto the breach, but this is going to be my final attempt to get you to realise the contradictions in your arguments. You seem to be pretty similar to Andy in that neither introducing evidence against your position nor pointing out the logical flaws in your arguments will make you rethink your conclusions, and this is getting tedious. Anyway, let's start with the points above:
  • I never compared oil consumption rates in one country to the number of vehicles in another (that would indeed be an apples-and-oranges-mistake), I consistently used the former indicator. What I did above was try to tell you why the latter isn't as useful, because it's, at best, an unreliable approximation to a variable that can readily be measured directly.
  • I quoted the NYT article in order to refute your notion that China has laxer efficiency laws than the US and wouldn't be able to push the average oil consumption of its car fleet under 35 MPG even after 50 years. Yes, Rob, even China is set to pull ahead of the US in efficiency. It's overall oil consumption will of course still increase in the future, as China's rapid economic growth will outweigh savings through increased efficiency for at least another decade or two. Still, that's no reason to ignore efficiency - on the contrary, an expected further increase in demand is all the more reason for everyone to think what he or she can do about reducing consumption. Are you still not getting this?
  • I don't know about the price of using hydrogen fuel cells, but I doubt anyone would bother with them if their adoption would result in a twentyfold increase in costs for transportation. They may become a big thing somewhere down the line, and all efforts to improve this technology should be supported. Still, ethanol and conventional-battery-driven electric cars are both already available as well as rather cost-efficient (unless you use oil to produce the energy the latter consume, of course).
  • I'm beginning to wonder if you even read my posts. I certainly never doubted that we'll see a steady decrease in oil production, coupled with still-rising demand in the near future. Hence, higher prices. That is the backbone of my whole argument, and since it's the assumption both of us apparently share, I wanted to get you around to realize that this inevitable development necessitates the adoption of a proactive energy policy designed to reduce demand and develop alternatives, or we're all done for.
So, let's revisit the glaring contradiction between accepting this fact and arguing that this development is of no concern to the US one last time. Global oil production decreases, the price rises, and everyone except the US behaves sensibly and tries to get its consumption in line with worsening market conditions. US companies and private citizens will still try to consume less fuel as the costs become prohibitive, but since their government hasn't been backing such behaviour up by trying to manage a gradual switch to the post-oil age, it's going to be more abrupt and painful. They'll have to look overseas to purchase efficiency-increasing technologies, something competitors like the Europeans developed and implemented in their home markets long ago. Not just gasoline, but consumer products in general become more expensive as these additional costs are factored into the price. US companies face a sudden make-or-break situation as their domestic market contracts and foreign competitors aggressively seize additional market shares, utilising their superior technology. Tariffs are no solution to this problem, since the products consumers now require can't be produced by domestic companies, and driving the cost of the new, efficient vehicles and other toys from abroad up even more would hurt consumers further. The already crappy US trade balance takes another hit, necessitating yet more borrowing from overseas. Private citizens, companies and the federal government, already deeply in debt, frantically compete for yet more credit that can only be supplied by creditors from abroad profiting from this huge trade imbalance. Interest rates rise sharply, inflation goes through the roof, the dollar depreciates. Consumers have to pay yet more for foreign products, while US companies can't even take advantage of this, since they're now totally unable to compete even in their home market, let alone sell stuff overseas. Finally, as the economy spins out of control and private citizens are unable to keep up their living standard, social unrest looms. Unfettered consumption means living on borrowed time, Rob, and the clock may well run out because propaganda outlets like Conservapedia (not CP itself, since it's irrelevant) stand in the way of realising this problem and acting on it. Andy would still be standing amidst the wreckage his shortsighted views have made impossible to avert, and hold out for the return of Jesus at the last minute. Unfortunately, betting on divine interference is, in the words of the most incompetent US politician of all time, not a strategy and not an option. Röstigraben (talk) 08:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Rob, do you support government regulation of drilling?

"Obama granted BP an exclusion to the proper environmental impact assessment (EIA) required by law" so you support government regulation of industry then? - π 04:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Definitely. And if there's a business that needs regulation, this would be it. Have you ever seen the IRS's Criminal Investigations Manual? Half the book is dedicated to one industry, oil and gas, and how to investigate of depletion allowances. And right now I'm consulting with a several individuals formerly employed in oil and gas drilling business, from engineers down to roughnecks on offshore rigs. ~~sup>— Unsigned, by: RobSmith / talk / contribs
I must say your position on this is surprisingly non-conservative for a guy that thinks communist still exist (outside the few hundred deluded college students, and they are all in it because they are hoping that it will get them laid somehow). - π 05:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Just a quick call to the last two Republican Presidents, and the former Republican Vice-President, should sort you out Rob. DogPMarmite Patrol 05:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, he answered, at least. Isn't that fair? ħumanUser talk:Human 05:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
As Huw has said, thanks for answering this question Rob (and for trying to in-some-kind-of-round-about-way answer the last one too). So, given that you are in favour of regulation here, why was CP so anti about everything Obama did previously to restrict offshore exploration? DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 07:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't aware Obama did anything to restrict offshore drilling. All I know is Obama's a trash talker who takes money from Goldman Sachs & British Petroleum. I don't waste a lot of time trying to decipher his latest posturing and pandering pitch or trying to make sense of his latest ruse, or trying to determine if he really means it. Frankly, I don't care. And I pity people who take any of his bullshit serious. nobsdon't bother me 01:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
So unrelenting distrust of a political figurehead is more important than any particular offshore drilling issue? ~ Kupochama[1][2] 02:44, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Rob you idiot, haven't you followed up those links I posted above? BP (they haven't been Britsih Petroleum for over 10 years but we all know you're living in the past) actually gave even more money to the Republicans - as did all the other oil companies.  Lily Inspirate me. 17:17, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Well Lily has already addressed your second 'point' (again), so I will address your first one. You weren't aware that Obama did anything to restrict offshore drilling? Well, you're probably correct, but that didn't stop CP adorning its mainpage with shit like this? Just so I understand the CP view; it is wrong to restrict offshore drilling, especially for so-called "environmental" reasons, but when there's an environmental disaster due to offshore drilling, it's Obama's fault. Is that about right? CP has never bothered with consistency, but this one really does up the hypocrisy ante. DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 19:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Krugman

The oil spill is Obama's fault
No, I haven’t lost my mind — that’s not what I believe.
What does this tell us about what Paul Krugman believes? EddyP (talk) 09:10, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Good luck, mate, Rob is on a strange one with this. No one understands why he thinks what he thinks usually, but usually we have a good guess. In this case, personally, I am just embarrassed for my old friend's "logic". ħumanUser talk:Human 09:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
It says it in the NYT. Wikipedia considers it a reliable source, therefore it is true. QED. - π 11:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Apparently he's trying to prove a point [2] -- Nx / talk 11:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
...by vandalising his own wiki? EddyP (talk) 11:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Wouldn't be the first time. Remember that he claims that New Ordeal had deliberately false information designed to draw out educated people enemy vandals, even it still stands in mainspace as fact today. --Kels (talk) 17:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

(undent) When you search krugman on whitehouse.gov you get all sorts of interesting things, like this answer, for example....

Q In a rare alignment, MoveOn.org, Paul Krugman and Bill Kristol all agreed the President was wrong when he said he does not begrudge Wall Street bonuses.
MR. GIBBS: The President didn't say that, Major.
Q I'm saying what they're saying he said. He said "success" -- "I don't begrudge success, I don't begrudge --
MR. GIBBS: Let's not play hypothetical.
Q All right. He said, "I don't begrudge their success, I don't begrudge their wealth."
MR. GIBBS: No, no, no, no, no. “I, like most of the American people, don't begrudge people's success or wealth.”
Q Well, read the question, too, because the question was about -- the question was about the bonuses.
MR. GIBBS: No, no, I read the questions. You and I talked about this like four times the other --
Q I know, but the question was about --
MR. GIBBS: I understand. I understand the question was about bonuses. The question -- and the President on five different occasions -- just as I emailed you yesterday, causing you to reexamine what you'd written based off of the interview -- that the President was talking in that sentence, as he's done many times, about -- he does not believe the federal government should be setting salaries for business in America. He still believes that.
Q Does he still remain comfortable with the analogy he made with Major League Baseball players many have pointed out -- yes, Major League Baseball players make a lot of money -- no, many of them will make the World Series, but none of them had anything to do with the financial crisis or bad --
MR. GIBBS: Well, I don't think the President would argue that not many baseball players had anything to do with the financial crisis. I don't think that's -- the point he was trying to make was that there are obscene and shocking salaries, and obscene and shocking compensation that don't match what happens with your performance.
Q Does Blankfein and Dimon count?
MR. GIBBS: Hold on, hold on, let me -- can I just -- let me finish my answer -- that the President has said that there ought to be -- these ought to be based on performance, not on risk-taking, okay?
Q And some of these new ones are.
MR. GIBBS: No, that -- right, in the sense that yes, they're in stock rather than in --
Q Long-term health.
MR. GIBBS: There should be a say on pay. Shareholders ought to be able to weigh in on this. And he said that salaries like you were talking about with baseball and these bonuses are extraordinary and shocking.
Q Blankfein and Dimon -- are those obscene bonuses, Blankfein’s and Dimon’s?
MR. GIBBS: The President has spoken repeatedly on these bonuses, and finds them, as he did in here, extraordinary and shocking.
Q Has he been asked specifically about Blankfein and Dimon?
MR. GIBBS: And he said extraordinary and shocking, specifically.
Q Are they obscene, are they an offense, are they a violation of our moral principles?
MR. GIBBS: The President doesn't have any different view on bonuses yesterday than he had 10 days ago or 10 months ago.
Q Are these more palatable because these are different in type from the ones that were not linked to long-term health stock?
MR. GIBBS: Ensuring the bonuses are paid in that way is a movement in the right direction, right? Does that justify the level of these bonuses when, through only -- only through the taxpayers' assistance, would these banks still even exist? Of course not.

So, can anyone tell us how the White House Press Office responded to Krugman's statement the President was wrong? nobsdon't bother me 02:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Not relevant, please stay on topic Rob. Answer the question, what do you think Krugman actually believes regarding the oil spill and Obama? Acei9 02:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
(EC) What on earth are you on about, Rob? Do you even know anymore? I have no idea who this Krugman chap is, but the script here seems to be that you cited Krugman as having claimed the oil spill to be Obama's fault - which he clearly didn't - you have now been called-out on this basic error/astonishing deceit, and in response you post that. Eh? DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 02:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Let's see... Krugman is a fellow Nobel Lauarette who was award the Nobel Prize in economics...in 2008...let's see...2008...the same year (a) of the economic crash and (b) Obama was elected. Krugman also writes a column called Conscience of a Liberal in the msm source NYT But Krugman & Obama have been in a caqge match for several years. [3] You'd think in the worst economic crisis in since the Great Depression the President would listen to the advice of the most widely respected economist on the planet, but Obama & Gibbs are more intent on trashing his credibility. So to hear Gibbs & Obama talk, anything Krugman has to say is bullshit. [4] I can't understand the Obama people being so upset about this. nobsdon't bother me 03:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Err what? We're testing your reading comprehension, not getting upset about anything, Rob. Nutty Roux (talk) 03:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, this is all irrelevant to the question posed to you. What do you think Krugman believes about the oil spill based on his column. Does he, or does he not, blame Obama? Its a simple question. Acei9 03:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm with Obama, Krugman's full of shit, per CBS News. [5] nobsdon't bother me 03:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
So do you believe that Krugman thinks Obama is at fault? Acei9 03:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Krugman lacks credibility, as the Obama team has said for years (forget his Nobel Prize, or the fact Krugman was dead on correct in trashing Bush). nobsdon't bother me 03:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
So does Krugman believe the oil spill to be Obamas fault? Acei9 03:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
All I know is Obama doesn't believe what Krugman thinks or says and makes public his sentiments about a fellow Nobel Lauarette. That should be enough for any heel clicking, mind numbed cultic zombie to ignore what Krugman thinks and/or has to say. Trying to give Krugman credibility now as if he has something useful or worthwhile to say is a bit inconsistent, isn't it? nobsdon't bother me 03:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
So why have you the title of Krugmans page on your oil spill article? Krugman does not believe Obama to be at fault and, if you find Krugman so lacking in credibility why have you bothered mentioning him? Acei9 03:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
You don't get it, Ace. Krugman says Obama is not at fault. Krugman has no credibility. Therefore Obama is at fault. Deny this and lose all credibility. DickTurpis (talk) 03:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Look at this criticism here, "Krugman Then, Krugman Now."[barackobama.com] Obama is saying that Krugman said one thing a few months ago and another now, but to what end? That's left unsaid, but the implication must be that Krugman's either a complete idiot who forgot what he said or that he's changed his words due to some sort of unethical or under-handed motive. So you tell me what Krugman said, and if it has any credibility? nobsdon't bother me 04:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I believe Krugman's words were (and I am paraphrasing here) take your fucking meds. DickTurpis (talk) 04:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
In all honesty now Dick, you have to admit the most amazing thing about these blind Obama defenders is they never heard of Paul Krugman. This Politic review of the Newsweek article is pretty good. [6] nobsdon't bother me 04:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Jesus you're a fucking nitwit Rob. You have proven the full truth of this. Acei9 05:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
If that's true, Obama Press Secretary Robert Gibbs has been a good student of the nobsian method, as witness above. Look at any reference to Krugman on whitehouse.gov. [7] nobsdon't bother me 05:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Word of advise everyone. I learned this lesson many times some years back, but I keep falling into the trap too. Give up trying to have a reasonable discussion with Rob. It's a combination trying to talk to a retarded 3 year old who only wants to talk about his favorite new toy and banging your head into a brick wall. Forever. It isn't worth it. Give up. DickTurpis (talk) 03:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice one Dick. Also, Nobbies, I presume that whenever I'd like to quote Paul Krugman on any issue in the future - the Nobel Prize-winning Paul Krugman, I might add - you'll be happy to bow to his views? Oh yes I'm sure. ħumanUser talk:Human 09:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

(EC)No, of course not! Krugman suddenly lost all credibility a few comments above! From now on, Rob will bow to Obama's views and turn CP into a pro-Obama blog. Röstigraben (talk) 09:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Mr. Krugman has also published a paper in 1978 that cited a work from 1987 (also by Krugman, as it happens). Krugman rocks. 68.147.139.21 (talk) 09:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Remotion

You've been given back your cool sysop powers. Use them wisely. AnarchoGoon Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living 05:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Damn, I've been demoted. nobsdon't bother me 05:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)