Talk:Atheism

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[edit] Self Refuting?

I came across this comment:
It is irrational for one to believe in an atheistic position and at the same time that person to have unbelief in God, as it is impossible for the self-same to believe and disbelieve at the same time, and in the same respect; this it is self-refuting. If one believes they are an atheist, then they must have something to believe in, but atheism is unbelief, so they don’t and can’t. And if one disbelieves in God (atheism), then that thing disbelieved in must be thought to of not to exist beforehand and prior to their unbelief, as nothing can be rationally thought to exist in atheism including atheism itself. The only way that atheism could exist, is if it doesn’t exist, because if unbelief exists then it isn’t unbelief in the first place. Given that; non-existence necessitates prior unbelief, and belief is required for existence to be realized. Therefore, atheism is in contradiction of itself; it is presumed unbelief and thus excludes what is required to experience the existence of God in advance.

Is this true?--174.25.0.220 (talk) 05:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I also don't believe in the existence of Father Christmas or the Incredible Hulk. By the above logic this is also an impossible contradiction.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 06:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] "Evil atheists"

When atheists speak about the "evils of religion", they point to things which aren't (or weren't) necessarily "part" of the religion itself, for example the Crusades or Buddhists attacking Muslims. As a Buddhist I think it's unfair to say that religions can be blamed for totally heretical events in history, whereas atheists cannot be blamed for actions definitely tied to atheism in one way or another. If, for example, the Buddhist attacks on Muslims can be tied to Buddhism, then the hatred against Christians (which is now common for atheists; see yahoo answers as an obvious modern example), can most certainly be tied to atheism.

The problem is hatred and attachment to views and ideals. Some Buddhists hate muslims due to their attachment to the prosperity of Buddhism, and some atheists hate Christians in the same way. This can't go unacknowledged...— Unsigned, by: 67.184.220.149 / talk / contribs 23:12, 17 October 2014‎ (UTC)

[edit] Atheists getting ostracised

I found For atheists of color, ‘coming out’ can be painful which includesblack people being ostracised for being openly atheist. I haven't put it into the article as it's a blog. Has anyone got anything similar from a source I can use? Proxima Centauri (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Why does blogginess preclude use as a source? 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 00:49, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Websites

Should [1] be mentioned? 86.147.207.246 (talk) 14:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

In what context? It's a major web page advocating atheism, but that alone doesn't make it interesting. Ikanreed (talk) 15:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Just in case anyone feels the need to know why the BoN's external links were removed

Some BoN inserted these links and accompanying text in the External links section:

The last links are interesting research papers from journals with high impact factor!!!

These links have now been removed twice in an action which I happen to agree with, so to forestall any accidental reinstatements, I'll just point out that while they do refer to scientific articles the links are at best of tangential relevance.
First of all, the four links reflect duplications, since they only refer to two actual articles (Atheists Become Emotionally Aroused When Daring God to Do Terrible Things in the International Journal for the Psychology of Religion, Volume 24, Issue 2, 2014 and Anger toward God: social-cognitive predictors, prevalence, and links with adjustment to bereavement and cancer in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol 100(1), Jan 2011, 129-148).
Secondly, the first article simply suggest that making a dare against God gives believers and non-believers alike "a kick", but this may be a function of how a dare works in general (as sort of general "What if...?"-anxiety).
Thirdly, the article about anger towards God is irrelevant to atheism, since atheists by definition can't be angry at a deity they don't think exists. Note that the abstract actually seems to agree with this: "Some atheists and agnostics reported anger involving God, particularly on measures emphasizing past experiences (Study 2) and images of a hypothetical God (Study 3)." This suggests that these atheists' reports deal with either atheists humouring the questioner with a "For the sake of the argument"-response by pointing to a "hypothetical God"; or, in the case of "past experiences", may well refer to a time when the atheists in question were believers.
In sum, it seems to me that the links were posted by the "Atheists actually do believe in God, but are just angry at Him"-crowd (see for instance Lee Strobel and William Lane Craig). ScepticWombat (talk) 11:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a bit dishonest to dismiss the possibility of "anger toward God" as if the latter would require belief in the physical existence of a "God". It's totally possible to be angry at God for not existing or angry at the idea of God or a specific conception of a "God" for inspiring so much war and oppression throughout human history. Anger doesn't need to be pointed at things that are "real" for the anger to be real. And I'm sure there's plenty of agnostic atheists out there of the sentiment "I don't think there's a God out there, but if there is, he's a fucking ass." 141.134.75.236 (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, your objection seems to fall into the "hypothetical God"-case which is indeed not an affirmation of belief, but instead a "Well if God does exist"-hypothetical scenario. Again, this is not the same as the "straw man atheist" who is depicted as truly believing in God (or even knowing God to exist) and rejecting God due to being angry with Him (or wishing to live in sin - depending on the version). ScepticWombat (talk) 15:06, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
OK, so here's a scenario based on real experiences.
  • Jo Soap was born and bought up in the CofE and was a regular church goer.
  • Major tragedy strikes
  • Jo questions how the god she learnt about in Sunday School could possibly have allowed this to happen
  • As part of this Jo re-examines her faith and realises just how much she had taken on trust.
  • The more she questions the more absurd the whole god thing seems.
  • Jo is now a firm atheist.
So, is Jo an atheist becuase she's angry at god for allowing the major tragedy or was that just the catalyst that led to the thought processes that led to her rejection. For me it's the latter, for those who want to use the "atheists are angry at god" it's an obvious calse of the former. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 15:19, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
And that would, as far as I can see, conform to the "past experiences"-scenario - again unlike the "straw man atheist" who retains belief in God while being angry with Him. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I removed those links to. Unclicked on and unread. . Because dumping a bunch of links with no context, explanation or rationale into an article is no good for the wiki. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 15:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Don't you know? Impact factor is equal to context. They're the same thing. Ikanreed (talk) 15:50, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Funny BON Edit.

I feel that the following BON edit in italics sufficiently funny to be recorded here:

  • Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of gods the homosexuals or the left share.

It gives so much weird insight into the mind of the poster that it has me laughing out loud. Furthermore, it unintentionally implies lack of belief in the god of homosexuals and the left.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 18:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Or the left. He/She/Goat is an indecisive god. PacWalker 18:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Theistic homosexual communism. Is that a thing? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 18:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Let's make it one! 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Fun page? PacWalker 18:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Sure, why not? ;) 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:52, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
pls no Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 18:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Whoops, didn't see that; must've been busy creating something... PacWalker 19:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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