Talk:Sociology
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[edit] psychology for Marxists
While a "fact" tag might have been better User:RaoulDuke makes a good point when he points out that the only time the phrase "psychology for Marxists" occurs on the entire interweb is in this article.
Consequentially I have cut the disputed section to this talk page below.
Cut begins .....
[edit] Opposition to Sociology
Because sociology focuses on groups and cultures rather than individuals, many conservatives dismiss it as "psychology for Marxists." [1]
- ↑ Or at least we imagine they do. A Google search for the phrase (sociology + "psychology for marxists" + conservative) yields exactly one hit....the present article.
Cut ends .... --BobNot Jim 22:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't trying to make a big deal or nothin', I just thought it was kinda cool and worth mentioning that it turned out to be a googlewhack...RaoulDuke 22:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Raoul. Thanks for pointing out the problem. The thing is that we tend not to put such argumentative points within articles themselves but raise them on the talk page with perhaps a "fact" tag in the article itself. Another possibility, if you wish to avoid starting an edit war with what you fear might be a controversial edit, is to make a note on the talk page and say that you intend to change the article within 12-24 hours unless somebody else has a better idea. :-) We try to avoid articles which snark against themselves.--BobNot Jim 22:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- Given the fact that it's a, what, two-sentence-long article that is pretty much off-mission for the wiki to begin with, a little self-referencing, self-deprecating snark isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it? As Frank Zappa said, "whatever happened to all the fun in the world"? RaoulDuke 22:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Raoul. Thanks for pointing out the problem. The thing is that we tend not to put such argumentative points within articles themselves but raise them on the talk page with perhaps a "fact" tag in the article itself. Another possibility, if you wish to avoid starting an edit war with what you fear might be a controversial edit, is to make a note on the talk page and say that you intend to change the article within 12-24 hours unless somebody else has a better idea. :-) We try to avoid articles which snark against themselves.--BobNot Jim 22:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't trying to make a big deal or nothin', I just thought it was kinda cool and worth mentioning that it turned out to be a googlewhack...RaoulDuke 22:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, since nobody else seems to mind, I have re-inserted a little self-referencing, self-deprecating snark...RaoulDuke 15:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- It seems faintly absurd to add something which is obviously wrong along with a complaint about it.--BobNot Jim 15:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- There is only one "reliable" source as to whether social conservatives hate sociology... And it appears they don't.
narchist 15:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- There is only one "reliable" source as to whether social conservatives hate sociology... And it appears they don't.
- It seems faintly absurd to add something which is obviously wrong along with a complaint about it.--BobNot Jim 15:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
"It seems faintly absurd to add something which is obviously wrong along with a complaint about it..." It's not a complaint. It's a joke, son...RaoulDuke 22:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Scientific Method is used in Sociology
The part that says sociology doesn't follow the scientific method is sort of BS. They design experiments, use controls, and use statistical analysis for results. I have read sociological studies and I have never once thought of it as "ideological" in any sense. Experiments are conducted as best as they can be from observing behavior; much like psychology, which I don't see being said is an ideological exercise. Don't want to sound Wikipedia here but is there any source for that statement? -- EWildman (talk) 20:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please improve. This article would benefit by being worked on by somebody who has actually studied sociology (at least a little) rather than just people who've heard of it. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have a very close friend who was a sociology student for 4 years, he often said he was pissed off at how it wasn't scientific at all and envied my degree as a scientist. Although the caveat is that this is one person, an opinion and as a student who never did a science degree (and barely got through the sociology one intact, to be honest). And I think he was mostly ranting about the women's studies module that was run by an all-sex-is-rape feminist that, oddly enough, never had a male student pass her course. I don't doubt some of the actual research is scientific but some of the conclusions and assertions are pretty baseless and subjective.
narchist 21:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- It sounds like your friend had terrible instructors. I can most definitely see how it can at times be abused for ideological reasons, especially considering it's history in labor movements, anti-male tripe, and how one of the big founders is also the one of the people behind communism. I think your friend's criticism about it's unscientific nature is a common problem with a lot of social sciences in general. My brother is an economist and he constantly makes fun of the concept of "experiments" in the field because of the number of assumptions that one has to make to build a model. Psychology suffers some of the same problems as they use statistical analysis to conduct much of their research. I would be curious to which assertions are baseless and subjective? Not being a dick, actually curious. I have heard the discipline be criticized for it's use of statistical models over actual experiments, but I have not really heard anything about it producing mostly crap. From what I have been able to glean from my experience in studying it formally (very minor amount in college) and informally, it's a useful area of study that has helped explain plenty of social phenomena. Sorry for the long response :) -- EWildman (talk) 21:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- For those of us who tend to be a bit skeptical about it could you give an example of the social phenomena which it explains? (And which presumably couldn't be explained without it.) Thanks.--BobSpring is sprung! 21:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Bystander effect, labeling affect, deviant amplification spiral, plus these here.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that sociology is the best method of studying society as a whole. This article just reads to me that the entire discipline is ideologically driven and produces nothing of value, which from my experience hasn't been the case. I'm new though so feel free to ignore me if I am being stupid :) -- EWildman (talk) 21:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's outside the area of my direct expertise. As I said, I've only bothered looking into it when people have said what horseshit they're being taught - so undoubtedly I'm suffering a selection bias of what sociology I know outside the usual suspects (bystander effect, Milgram's obedience study, BF Skinner, yadda yadda).
narchist 22:55, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh this is outside my area of expertise as well. I only nominally studied sociology to augment my business studies and know little aside from some research methods and some concepts. I am also very likely suffering from selection bias as well since I had great professors and I mostly look into sociology when interesting studies are being conducted. Is everyone cool with me just adding little bits of information slowly to this, regarding research methods, scope, and all that slowly? -- EWildman (talk) 02:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Mmmm. Can we blame cultural relativism and postmodernism on sociology?--BobSpring is sprung! 06:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Postmodernism didn't originate within sociology, but among the social sciences (excluding literary studies), it's easily the field that has embraced it the most, and it's the source of most of the bullshit plagueing it. Which of course doesn't mean that there aren't sociologists who take the scientific method seriously and try as hard as they can to employ it, it's just that even they necessarily have to deal with a lot of subjectivity and immaterial factors that you can't really measure or conduct experiments on. So as a field, sociology isn't more or less scientific than economics or political science, it just may feature a larger share of people who have embraced nonsensical philosophies. Röstigraben (talk) 08:10, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Mmmm. Can we blame cultural relativism and postmodernism on sociology?--BobSpring is sprung! 06:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Oh this is outside my area of expertise as well. I only nominally studied sociology to augment my business studies and know little aside from some research methods and some concepts. I am also very likely suffering from selection bias as well since I had great professors and I mostly look into sociology when interesting studies are being conducted. Is everyone cool with me just adding little bits of information slowly to this, regarding research methods, scope, and all that slowly? -- EWildman (talk) 02:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's outside the area of my direct expertise. As I said, I've only bothered looking into it when people have said what horseshit they're being taught - so undoubtedly I'm suffering a selection bias of what sociology I know outside the usual suspects (bystander effect, Milgram's obedience study, BF Skinner, yadda yadda).
- Bystander effect, labeling affect, deviant amplification spiral, plus these here.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that sociology is the best method of studying society as a whole. This article just reads to me that the entire discipline is ideologically driven and produces nothing of value, which from my experience hasn't been the case. I'm new though so feel free to ignore me if I am being stupid :) -- EWildman (talk) 21:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- For those of us who tend to be a bit skeptical about it could you give an example of the social phenomena which it explains? (And which presumably couldn't be explained without it.) Thanks.--BobSpring is sprung! 21:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- It sounds like your friend had terrible instructors. I can most definitely see how it can at times be abused for ideological reasons, especially considering it's history in labor movements, anti-male tripe, and how one of the big founders is also the one of the people behind communism. I think your friend's criticism about it's unscientific nature is a common problem with a lot of social sciences in general. My brother is an economist and he constantly makes fun of the concept of "experiments" in the field because of the number of assumptions that one has to make to build a model. Psychology suffers some of the same problems as they use statistical analysis to conduct much of their research. I would be curious to which assertions are baseless and subjective? Not being a dick, actually curious. I have heard the discipline be criticized for it's use of statistical models over actual experiments, but I have not really heard anything about it producing mostly crap. From what I have been able to glean from my experience in studying it formally (very minor amount in college) and informally, it's a useful area of study that has helped explain plenty of social phenomena. Sorry for the long response :) -- EWildman (talk) 21:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have a very close friend who was a sociology student for 4 years, he often said he was pissed off at how it wasn't scientific at all and envied my degree as a scientist. Although the caveat is that this is one person, an opinion and as a student who never did a science degree (and barely got through the sociology one intact, to be honest). And I think he was mostly ranting about the women's studies module that was run by an all-sex-is-rape feminist that, oddly enough, never had a male student pass her course. I don't doubt some of the actual research is scientific but some of the conclusions and assertions are pretty baseless and subjective.
[edit] The current state of this article
Is total shit for a lack of better terminology. Sociologists (at least all of the ones that I have studied under) accept the scientific method and positivism, and most are well versed in the current developments in Psychology/Neurology and Biology, and the implications that they have on the social sciences as a whole. I think the biggest problem though is the lack of depth on what it is that Sociologists actually do, and the theories and ideas behind it.
I think this winter I'm going to commit myself to rewriting this page from the ground up. Sadly at present I'm stuck writing a long essay on Robert Bork, and I'll be occupied with that and other projects for sometime. Smedley (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'm removing some of the nonsense, but it does need a lot of a rewrite. I'll give you a hand.--
talk
23:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
[edit] A basic covering of the main theories would be nice.
A summary of conflict theory, functionalism, social interaction theory, and even feminist influences would improve this article a lot. I haven't actually edited an article before as I'm pretty new but I'm knowledgeable in this area and this article needs it. So i guess I'll try?— Unsigned, by: Legal JWH-018 / talk / contribs
- Please do. Beware, if you're going to significantly change the tone of the article, you might find some objections. If, however, you're going to add some well needed scholarship, please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top.
- If you're new to editing wikis then don't forget the 'show preview' button. This saves the embarrassment of endless entries in Recent Changes while you tweak things to get them right. Innocent Bystander (talk) 16:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- EC We're not a general use encyclopedia, so I wouldn't put too much effort into that, except where you can link those concepts to the basic mission. When Roosevelt came to the land of the hummingbird, shouts of welcome were heard!. 16:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Expanding
I'm currently working on expanding this article to include the main sociological theories and concepts. Once I summarize the basic ideas I'll come back and add more specific sources and data. AugustusCaesar (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)