Talk:Islamophobia
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[edit] Irrational fear?
Is Islamophobia only the irrational fear of Islam? As in, is it not possible to be rationally afraid of Islam? Is there a separate word for rational fear of Islam (or other religions?) — Unsigned, by: 212.219.66.211 / talk / contribs
- Yes. It is called "Rational fear of <insert-religion-here>". For instance, any non-muslims currently in ISIS-controlled territory could be said to have a rational fear of Islam or Muslims. Hertzy (talk) 14:07, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Considering that Daesh executes virtually all Shia and any Sunnis suspected of not being rabidly anti-Shia, I'd say ALL Muslims in that area would have a rational fear of Islam of Muslims. CorruptUser (talk) 16:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
[edit] "Islamophobia versus criticism of Islam"
This section doesn't seem to address it's headline and I'm not sure I'm going to do well rewriting it, but here's a try to look over:
Islamophobia is more of a fear of culture based around a religion, calling for profiling, discrimination and in some cases extermination of Muslims as a people. This is not to say that criticism of the religion is a irrational fear. Hate the religion, love the religious if you will. Complaining about what the religion is killing people for is warranted while calling for the practitioners to be put to death is not.
Thoughts? Zero (talk) 15:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
- Seems like a strawman. Who are these people who advocate extermination of Muslims? Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 00:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- I guess I'm still not getting the point of this section (or the article, I guess) then since it seems to not be in line with anything said. Zero (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- The point of section seems to be that Islamophobic comments are OK when they come from New Atheist celebrities. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think it highlights the issue with the murkiness of separating unreasonable and reasonable criticisms of Islam into separate buckets, because there's often a lot of entangled things going on. We do, however, find ourselves in an awkward situation, for every time there is some screwball saying, "Criticizing Islam is Islamophobia" there are another dozen nutjobs saying, "There's no such thing as Islamophobia." There are reasons to dislike Islam, even to be intensely fearful of Islam. However, there's a sizeable number of people who dislike and/or are intensely fearful of Islam without any reasonable cause. You even get people like Sam Harris who have some reasonable, well-thought-out critiques of Islam broken up by islands of cruelty and hypocrisy. Shadow of Lords talk 19:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
- The point of section seems to be that Islamophobic comments are OK when they come from New Atheist celebrities. Wèàšèìòìď
- I guess I'm still not getting the point of this section (or the article, I guess) then since it seems to not be in line with anything said. Zero (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Is Islam a race?
Islam is the majority religion in countries like Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan and Somalia, even though racially and ethnically the populations of these countries are very different. There are also converts to Islam from just about every racial and ethnic group on the planet. In Canada alone we had two WASPs convert to Islam and try to copycat the Boston Bombers, except these 2 losers a) targeted the B.C. legislature and b) got caught before their bombs detonated. Canada was also home to a kid of Korean descent who went to North Africa to join Al-Qaeda. There were also that white (ginger) loser who was trying to enforce Sharia law in London. Not to mention apostates like Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali didn't change their race when they renounced Islam. People do sometimes equate "brown people" with "Muslim", but brown people would also include Sikhs and Hindus, so it's not like Islam has a monopoly on being "brown". Point being, people who call criticism of Islam (a set of beliefs) racism are either clueless as to what race is or they're resorting to what Greta Christina refers to as "shut up, that's why" forms of argument. — Unsigned, by: Milesmcstylez / talk / contribs
- I don't see where the article says Islamophobia is racism. It says it is akin to racism.
- While I am here typing, let me say that the thing about religion being a choice is a separate topic, and a murky one. The Jesuits are famous for saying something like "Give me a child until he is seven, and he will be mine for life." 72.70.55.24 (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) Akin to racism is not the same as racism. Hipocrite 21:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Akin probably isn't the best phrase to use anyway. The point is that Islamophobia often goes hand in hand with (explicit or implicit) racism. Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:07, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Akin probably isn't the best phrase to use anyway. The point is that Islamophobia often goes hand in hand with (explicit or implicit) racism. Wēāŝēīōīď
- As I said in an edit summary a while back: Judaism is no less a "race" than Islam, but the fact that a Jew converted to Christianity made zero difference to the Nazis. To them, Judaism was a question of racial identity, not of shared belief. In a similar, though far less onerous manner, Islam has been racilized. Ask any Sikh or Hindu going through airport security about this. Their ethnic/racial look means thay are far more likely to be targeted for anti-Muslim bullshit than, say, my white Bosnian Muslim friend. Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 21:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- (EC, adding my voice to what's already been said). OP is bullshit. Racism is hatred, fear or distrust of people based on their ethnicity and/or culture, not some strict biological thing. This includes Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, Sinophobia, Indophobia, hatred of Native Americans, etc. etc. What with open racism being out of style, people often pass off their racism (even to themselves) as being not really racist. That doesn't give them a free pass when they're promoting hostility toward the "other". Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:04, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I think "Islamophobia is often motivated by racism" is more accurate than "Islamophobia is akin to racism". I'm not denying the Ann Coulters of the world think "Muslim" "Brown person" and "Terrorist" are all interchangeable terms. I'm also not denying the widespread prejudice faced by "anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim" to quote Sam Harris. However, I think comparisons of Islam to Christianity are more apt than comparisons to Judaism. Christianity and Islam are both much larger, much more racially diverse, and both put a great deal of emphasis on converting people (of all races) where Judaism does not. Saying vehement criticism of Islam is akin to racism, but equally harsh criticism of Christianity is not, strikes me as a massive double standard. I'm also reminded of how many of Israel's most rabid supporters reflexively label any and all criticism of Israeli policy as Anti-Semitism, as a way of silencing their critics rather than addressing them. Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism are both used far too often to equate valid and legitimate criticisms with racism. Rather than calling out such disingenuous tactics, this article seems to embrace them.--Milesmcstylez (talk) 22:48, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- The second half of the article is all about differentiating legitimate criticism of beliefs from racist Islamophobia. Read it. The changes you were making to the lead section appeared to suggest that there is no such thing as Islamophobia and that all criticism of Muslims is fair game since they're technically not a "race". That's where the disingenuous tactics come in. Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:02, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I saw the second half, but the introduction makes absolutely no attempt to differentiate legitimate criticism of Islam from bigotry against Muslims. If anything, it equates the two. --Milesmcstylez (talk) 23:15, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed that it equates the two. How about something more like this? "Islam is a religion; a collection of ideas and beliefs, and like all religions, can be disliked and criticized. When that dislike turns to mindless hatred, on the same level as racism, that's called Islamophobia". Hmmph (talk) 01:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
[edit] Valid criticisms of Islam
I think the article needs to flesh out what does not constitute Islamophobia, though is often labelled as such.
A few things include:
-Pointing out specific passages in the Qur'an or hadith that conflict with Enlightment values such as womens rights, LGBTQ rights, tolerance of religious minorities, free speech, etc.
-Citing opinion polls or other data that suggest a sizable portion of the world's Muslims support undemocratic doctrines such as the death penalty for apostasy and violent actions taken against blasphemers.
-Making valid though unflattering comparisons between Islam and other major religions such as Christianity.
-General criticisms that would be deemed socially acceptable (or at least not racist) if they were leveled at a different religion. --Milesmcstylez (talk) 01:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
A few quotes that might also be apppropriate
"Needless to say, there are people who hate Arabs, Somalis, and other immigrants from predominantly Muslim societies for racist reasons. But if you can't distinguish that sort of blind bigotry from a hatred and concern for dangerous, divisive, and irrational ideas -- like a belief in martyrdom, or a notion of male 'honor' that entails the virtual enslavement of women and girls -- you are doing real harm to our public conversation. Everything I have ever said about Islam refers to the content and consequences of its doctrine. And, again, I have always emphasized that its primary victims are innocent Muslims -- especially women and girls. There is no such thing as 'Islamophobia.' This is a term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism by conflating all criticism of it with racism and xenophobia. And it is doing its job, because people like you have been taken in by it." -- Sam Harris http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/dear-fellow-liberal2
"As a brown-skinned person with a Muslim name, I can get away with a lot more than you'd think. I can publicly parade my wife or daughters around in head-to-toe burqas and be excused out of "respect" for my culture and/or religion, thanks to the racism of lowered expectations. I can re-define 'racism' as something non-whites can never harbor against whites, and cite colonialism and imperialism as justification for my prejudice. And in an increasingly effective move that's fast become something of an epidemic, I can shame you into silence for criticizing my ideas simply by calling you bigoted or Islamophobic. For decades, Muslims around the world have rightly complained about the Israeli government labeling even legitimate criticism of its policies 'anti-Semitic,' effectively shielding itself from accountability. Today, Muslim organizations like CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) have borrowed a page from their playbook with the 'Islamophobia' label -- and taken it even further. In addition to calling out prejudice against Muslims (a people), the term 'Islamophobia' seeks to shield Islam itself (an ideology) from criticism. It's as if every time you said smoking was a filthy habit, you were perceived to be calling all smokers filthy people. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. But when did we start extending those rights to ideas, books, and beliefs? You'd think the difference would be clear, but it isn't. The ploy has worked over and over again, and now everyone seems petrified of being tagged with this label. The phobia of being called 'Islamophobic' is on the rise -- and it's becoming much more rampant, powerful, and dangerous than Islamophobia itself." -- Ali A. Rizvi http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/the-phobia-of-being-calle_b_5215218.html?utm_hp_ref=tw --Milesmcstylez (talk) 01:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- You do realize that Sam Harris has made statements in defense of profiling against Muslim-looking people in airports, right? Why should we be putting his excuses for why he's not a racist on this page? Frederick♠♣♥♦ 00:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
[edit] The map is wrong
The map lists Laos as an Islamic country where Atheist rights have been restricted. Laos is a Buddhist country run by Marxist-leninists(aka atheists). Also Eritrea has more Christians than Muslims according to Wikipedia so probably not a good example either. Not sure where you got it from, but it looks like you need a new map. 198.102.219.143 (talk) 15:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- No, the map lists Eritrea as a country where atheists can be imprisoned under law, and Laos as a country where atheists have reduced rights under law. It doesn't identify either as Islamic. I can't find what the specific legal restrictions on atheism are in Laos, but a few searches on Google & Wikipedia show that atheists are actually a very small minority there, and various religious minorities are persecuted despite nominal freedom of religion. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:39, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
From the summary: "Countries which kill or imprison atheists (that they're all Islamic is probably coincidence and has nothing to do with Islam). But yes, technically you're correct. The map is not so much wrong as misleading. It's the map's summary that is wrong. " 198.102.219.143 (talk) 08:25, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
- Gone. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 12:09, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Why Vilify Legitimate Opposition to Islam?
How come any opposition to Islam is considered "Islamaphobia"? In the Richard Dawkins article, you talk all about his anti-religion positions, then when he says bad things about Muslims, it suddenly becomes a "legitimate criticism" of Richard Dawkins. It is the same thing on the Sam Harris page. Is this an atheist site or a pro-Islam site? Dawkins and Harris have just as much right to make fun of, and oppose, Islam as they do any other religion.— Unsigned, by: 128.118.244.23 / talk / contribs 21:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)