Talk:Tone argument

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Enoch

...Powell in his Desert Island Discs interview (there is a podcast of it) said that Edward Heath did not like the 'tone' of #that# speech and the use of 'tone' was significant as Heath was a musician.

Related or different usage? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:33, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Kafkatrapping

Right or wrong, this is not what Raymond means by "kafkatrapping" in his essay. At all. He says it's the rhetorical claim "Your refusal to recognize your racism/sexism etc. mean you really are racist/sexist etc.", with some variations on that theme. So again, that can certainly be criticized but I don't see what it had to do with how kafkatrapping is defined on the page.Mcc1789 (talk) 20:29, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

You need to spend more time arguing with people who think that's an argument. It's a tone argument on steroids - David Gerard (talk) 20:48, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

I guess it's another term whose meaning is now completely different from the original.Mcc1789 (talk) 02:49, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Insofar as "the original" is the view from inside ESR's head, and the article describes how it looks from the outside, i.e. your answer is not even wrong - David Gerard (talk) 11:28, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Well that wasn't clear to me from the article, so I'm not sure how my answer's "not even wrong". I've added his definition for clarity.Mcc1789 (talk) 02:29, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Is it only me that sees the absurdity of having the Kafka Trap entirely dismissed by ad-hominem against the person who coined the term, compounded by an actual Kafka Trap of the form "pointing out my manipulative, deceptive argument for my previous accusation against you only constitutes evidence of you being stupid (and presumably therefore also guilty of the thought-crime I'm accusing you of in the first place)"? Were the boot on the other foot, and this tactic were being abused 20 years ago by creationist/climate-denial dogmatists, would there seriously be no acknowledgement of the snake-like nature of this approach? Aphirst (talk) 09:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

yes, it's only you, which is why you're answering a discussion from 2 1/2 years ago - David Gerard (talk) 14:57, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

My old comment was a load of rubbish. To be honest I don't even understand it any more. A lot's changed in the last two years for me. Aphirst (talk)

I think you're doing this term a disservice. While you will readily admit that things like "sealioning" are real and undisputable practices, with "kafkatrapping" I'm getting the impression that the article is very dismissive of it, as in "some old wacko got butthurt that he got called a racist, denied it, but called one regardless because he probably is one". Look, many people these days are going to call you a racist these days for the most innocuous of opinions outside of the acceptable woke rhetoric, and obviously you are allowed to not appreciate the suggestion. Kafkatrapping is the insistence that you're racist regardless and that your denial somehow corroborates it - used as a rhetorical tool to shame you into refusing to continue the discussion. Basically a shut down and shame scheme. 5.253.206.172 (talk) 16:31, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

And what have you been called racist for? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:17, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

The fuck?

The quote at the top is a terrible example of the tone argument as defined in this article, which is dismissal of an argument based on the tone in which it was expressed. But I don't think it needs to be pointed out that "the fuck" is not an argument of any kind. Cornucopia (talk) 03:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to replace it with a better one. But that kind of thing actually happens. It isn't really necessary to type up a detailed refutation of some PRATT every time someone repeats it. So someone posts "Obama is a secret Muslim terrorist!", someone responds by saying that's stupid, and then the original poster or others berate the respondent for name-calling. Many cranks love to try sidetracking an argument into discussions over tone, attitude, wording, etc. to distract from their bad arguments (and so they can feed their persecution complex). --Ymir (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Undoubtedly true. I think the problen is the unspecified "bigoted statement" especially sinced "bigoted" is ridiculously misused to mean any opinion that someone thinks disadvantages some "marginalised" group (which often equates to "any disagreement with leftwing ideology"). But if it's meant to mean "a totally and obviously irrational and moronic statement" then I agree. Cornucopia (talk) 04:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

So you don't like the ... tone? - David Gerard (talk) 08:02, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Um

Can we at least have *some* recognition that there are valid and invalid uses of the term? On the one hand, the emotional content of a statement doesn't affect the factual accuracy of said statement. However, the form I inevitably see the phrase "tone troll(ing)" used is the following:

Person on left: [assertion]

Person on right: I disagree because X.

Person on left: Fuck off and die alone you dickless neckbeard piece of racist homophobic misogynistic diseased hippopotamus rectum.

Person on right: ...okay, wow, that was needless.

Person on left: TONE TROLL! Therefore I am right about everything and I win.

Of course, this makes me a "concern troll" and immediately invalidates everything I say for exactly the same reason, and I'm probably writing this inbetween bouts of murdering transwomen of color. ^{— Unsigned, by: 212.105.160.200 / talk / contribs}

On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The article appears to say what you're asking for, though with not as much straw - David Gerard (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

When the Argument Itself is All "Tone"

I understand why tone-policing is a fallacy when used to dismiss a logical and empirical argument not by addressing the arguments' merits but by attacking the way it was presented. However, what if there is no logical argument to be found and all that's being expressed by the person is a "hateful" tone?

For example, I witnessed the other day a person online arguing that Ellen DeGeneres's tweet of a Photoshopped picture depicting her riding Usain Bolt wasn't racist. In response, a group of people (some black) told this person that she was anti-black and a white supremacist. This person pointed out how reactionary and absurd that accusation was and how the group were being bullies instead of addressing her arguments, and then she was accused of "tone-policing" black people. And on an anecdotal basis, this is the most common way I see the term "tone-policing" used.

Is it tone-policing when there is no empiricism or logic to the argument and it's dismissed on the grounds that the person is lashing out emotionally with no substance? This wouldn't be a case of style over substance. It would be a case of, "You have no substance and to boot your style is irrational and inflammatory." I feel like under the "Exceptions" tab this is a very important distinction to make and should be added. ^{— Unsigned, by: 75.130.125.146 / talk / contribs}

As I understand it

The tone argument fallacy is as often misunderstood as the ad hominem fallacy.

To use ad hominem as an example; most people seem to think that "ad hominem" means "it's an a priori logical fallacy to make any inferences about a person's character". This is not what the "ad hominem" fallacy is about, though.

The logical fallacy of ad hominem is only committed if you infer something about a claim based on the person making it — but not the other way around!

The ad hominem fallacy, in other words: inferring that a claim is wrong because the arguer is an idiot. That's a fallacious inference, yes — the genetic fallacy also comes in to play here. From a rhetorical standpoint, inferences like these may also amount to both poisoning the well and the appeal to motive.

What is not inherently fallacious, however, is to infer that: the arguer of a claim is an idiot because the claim is wrong. That's not fallacious.

You being wrong all the time may or may not lend credence to the inference that you are an idiot — there's certainly no law of logic preventing this from being possible, a priori.

Claim X does not become invalid based on the protest "but the arguer is an idiot!" — that would be an instance of the ad hominem fallacy. However, X might be wrong for other, valid reasons. And the fact that someone has repeatedly been making idiotic claims may indeed be an inductive ground for atleast making the case that the arguer is a moron (vague as that term is — but that's another discussion).

Now, assuming idiocy could be proven — all we know it's not a priori impossible — the fact of someone being a moron may not be used to counter any of their claims, as that would — again — constitute the ad hominem fallacy.

Now then — a similar scenario of confusion seems to unfold with the tone argument.

Pointing out that an argument has a poor tone is not fallacious. Infering things about the arguer based on the content of the arguer's remarks — see above — is not a priori fallacious, either. Reacting powerfully to a perception of poor tone is not inherently fallacious, either. Making value judgements based on tone is not fallacious, either. Indeed, all of these things are the domain of rhetoric, not logic. This stuff is about emotions and psychology, not logic.

All that logic states in this context is the fact that: protesting the tone of claim X is not a valid refutation of claim X.

So, does this mean that we have to submit to accepting disgusting phrasings of certain points (true or untrue)? Nope — the principle of charity in fact prevents us from doing so. Why? Because the same principle demands that we "upgrade" the tone of all claims to the clearest, fairest and most truthful that we can think of.

Note that this same principle also demands that even the arguments of an idiot be treated as if not idiotic. The principle also reaffirms what I write above about the ad hominem fallacy.

And if you think someone's tone is offensive, then that just means that the impetus is on you to reconstruct the argument fairly in a way that preserves its points without preserving its baggage of nasty rhetoric (or of any rhetoric, for that matter). The principle of charity means that tone cannot ever be a problem of logic per se, just "problems" of rhetoric and psychology.

All logic maintains is that the tone used by you — and the tone percieved by anyone else — are both irrelevant to the truth value of a claim.

You have to reconstruct arguments in order to understand them. When you reconstruct arguments, you have to shave off the gunk per the principle of charity.

Thus, to logic, tone never becomes a factor — and if you refute the claims or refuse going through the mandated process of reconstruction with reference to the nasty rhetoric you'd have to wade through by doing so, then that's your problem, and you refusing the play by the rules — nothing more. Problem solved, as far as logic is concerned. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:29, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, see a 90 second example of the principle of charity here. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:48, 25 December 2016 (UTC)