Talk:Very Serious People

From RationalWiki
Jump to: navigation, search

How exactly does Jonah Goldberg qualify as a VSP? Wehpudicabok (talk) 05:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Because neocons and other wingnuts take him seriously (note how quick the meme that Hitler was a Leftie took off). The term is kind of sarcastic you see... EVDebs (talk) 15:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I get the sarcasm. What I don't get is how someone who writes a book called "Liberal Fascism" can be graced with a term known for taking centrist stances. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] 19:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Goldberg is definitely not what I think of when I think of VSP. Sure, VSPs can use wingnutty talking points, but they dress it up in more respectable and genteel language. The (pseudo-) centrist image is also important to maintain. For example, Bobo, as the archetypical VSP, is considered a RINO or liberal by wingnuts. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think VSPism is really bound to a political position as such; William Buckley comes to mind as one of the archetypes of the VSP, and he was frighteningly racist. I can't think of too many liberal VSPs, but they are most certainly out there -- depending on your POV Noam Chomsky might be one, although I think his real problem is more a failure to grasp Hanlon's Razor than anything else. It's more a question of being pretentiously, authoritatively wrong. That's largely a conceit of authoritarianism and FYIGMism more than it is a real left-right thing, and as we are all painfully aware, authoritarians especially exist all over the political spectrum. EVDebs (talk) 07:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Chomsky, seriously? The term is meaningless if it can be applied to him. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Chompsky is too far from the center and too willing to create controversy to be a VSP. He also doesn't fall for the balance fallacy. You guys are will me on Tony Blair though right? He's the only slightly left leaning VSP I can think of.ClothCoat (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
If you're a Post-Keynesian Paul Krugman is a VSP. I'm a fan and all, but some of his articles on Abenomics are embarrassing. Dr. Swordopolis (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to add David Cameron to the list of VSP politicians unless anyone has any objections.ClothCoat (talk) 04:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
on second thought Tony Blair is more of a VSP than Cameron is.ClothCoat (talk) 04:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

[edit] At the risk of "No true Scotsman"...

What about news sources that provide sober commentary? Are they part of the "Very Serious People"? --TheLateGatsby (The end of the dock ) 15:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Depends on how good their information is. EVDebs (talk) 15:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Generally, I personally exclude people from the moniker of 'Very Serious People' based on one of two criteria.
Are they consistently center-right/left among domestic and economic policies? If you're a (non-vulgar) libertarian, communist, religious fundamentalist, democratic socialist, Austrian schooler, etc.. you're automatically disqualified from being a VSP. You can still be totally fucking wrong, you're just not VSP-wrong.
Most importantly do they consistently get policy recommendations and analyses wrong because their views were mainstream and refuse to repudiate their old views? Being wrong doesn't make you a Very Serious Person. Being wrong for the same reasons -- that is, all of your buddies are WASP upper-middle class centrist urbanites -- and not updating your old views will make you so. Nate Silver is a centrist, but doesn't get things wrong like VSP tend to do. Josh Barro is a right-leaning centrist (almost conservative) but has admitted error in the past and when he's wrong about things it's not because he was following conventional wisdom. Dr. Swordopolis (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Barack Obama

Obama actually does qualify for most of these traits, though he's not as wrong on issues as most VSP's tend to be. Is it just "doctrinaire liberals" and libertarians who think that he's a VSP because he seems to be something of a VSP. On a side note I think the South Park guys qualify for a lot of this as well (global warming denialism until it was no longer acceptable, Pro consumerism until Walmart threatened local tradition, an appeal to moderation at most times, a preference for "quiet solutions" and tolerance of some intolerance such as in the Boy Scout episode, don't like identifying with anyone but the center, hysterical over generalizations over Christianity and other such things). Don't get me wrong I do enjoy South Park but they seem to qualify. ClothCoat (talk) 18:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

When you say Obmaa (or anyone else) is or isn't a VSP, are you taking this term seriously? by our own definition, **I** could be a VSP in the right moments. It's just a snarl word, listing who is or is not a VSP is not overly "rational" of us. it's just saying "these are people we find to be fake". but that's not really RW's place. is it?Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 19:49, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually I would think that is RW's place since this is a wiki devoted to rational thought, calling out people who are fake is kind of what we do. I also like to think I am taking the term seriously, which is why I'm asking on the talk page instead of just adding anyone I don't like. ClothCoat (talk) 06:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
I agree somewhat, although I think the VSP label should be reserved for pundits, not politicians. Politicians must commit to a side at least enough to join a party (unless of course they're independent, but independents typically don't get too far); pundits have no such constraint and so the behavior of avoiding committing to anything outside the center is much more prominent and worth discussing. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] 06:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Chris Matthews

Does Chris Matthews qualify? He is consistently wrong about election results, while often saying that he knows better because it's his "job", and he's a centrist/center-right as well. On the other hand he can generate a lot of controversy, which is unusual for a VSP. ClothCoat (talk) 18:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Personal tools
Namespaces

Variants
Actions
Navigation
Community
Tools
support