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RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the blogosphere?

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What is going on?

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[edit] Twitter Trolls Are Reporting Pro-LGBT Muslim Women to Their Governments, Where Punishment Can Mean Death

Oh yeah, maximum chan action! Total doxation! Stick it to those Muslamic SJWs, shitlords!
I love shit like this. It confirms everything I know about the true base state of humanity. Getting Muslamic SJWs in jail or put to the death or tortured FOR THE LULZ. --Castaigne2 (talk) 17:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

It's not even "for the lulz", they're genuinely trying to make a stupid fucking bigot point about how dangerous muslims are, by being psychopathic bastards getting people killed. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
What you just described IS the lulz; that's funsies for most people in the world. Nothing happens to them, the people they don't like get it in the ass, totes W1NZ0RS!!
Welcome to humanity. This is what we all are, underneath the skin. --Castaigne2 (talk) 17:40, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I guess the concerns about the returns of fascism have me seriously concerned. If every alt-righter died randomly, I have this feeling no one would lose any friends they like and respect. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 17:49, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
The lesson is required. I want the alt-righters to win. And then, I and others can show them the true meaning of authoritarianism. The lesson will probably stick for a few generations. --Castaigne2 (talk) 17:59, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
You know, after your 30 years in prison for being a social-democrat. Then you can really laugh in their face about how the US utterly destroyed itself. ikanreed You probably didn't deserve that 18:02, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Except I won't be. IRL, I am an authoritarian. The majority of people view me as terribly conservative. It'd be funny in other circumstances.
What is funny is that these alt-righters think they'd be the ones on top. I personally relish the look on their faces when they get thrust in the camps or jails or whatever with all the people they despise. Their lack of self-awareness is charming. --Castaigne2 (talk) 18:08, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
60 million people died from the last group of authoritarian dictators without a lasting lesson learned. A higher death toll must seem reasonable if you don't think you will be one of those next time. -MasterofLogic (talk) 19:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Well surely if a omnicidal maniac becomes dictator some country(ies) will open its (their) borders to let in refugees fleeing the carnage? Laurogeita Hamabost (talk) 19:42, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
like they do now? AMassiveGay (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
I think most people simply view you as annoyingly edgy, Castaigne. Most people outgrow your mentality by the time they're 12. NewFrenchHotness (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
But remember, it's the SJWs who don't care about third world women. Vulpius (talk) 18:12, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Alex salmond

Nothing to do with corbyns shit performance in the referendum then? Bullshit. Everythings a conspiracy. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:07, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Liberals Need to Stop Writing Off Non–College Educated Workers — Before the White Working Class Writes Off Liberals

...what is this bullshit?
No, seriously, what is this bullshit?
I'd really like to clue the author in on something - the "white working class voters" don't want what the liberals have to offer. They don't want to have what the educated conservatives have to offer. Or the educated libertarians. Or, frankly, anyone living in modern society. They want yesterday, where a guy could go turn screws in a factory for 8 hours and live off of it.

[edit] "But a good first step would be to stop insinuating that non–college educated workers are destined to live miserable lives because their skills are obsolete."

Guess what? The truth is unkind. Their skills are obsolete. If they want to have better lives, they'll need to adapt. Otherwise, they're looking at shit wages and a shit life and considering how the white working-class has been fucking mollycoddled for decades, I have no time for them. Here's another - "But his basic premise — that the economic decline of America’s non–college educated workers is an inexorable fact of economics — is often implied in the rhetoric of Democratic politicians." Surprise! It's a premise that exists in any economics that deals with math. Human labor costs are ever-increasing. Capital costs generally are not. If you can spend $20,000 + $500/year in maintenance on a machine that will take the place of a human worker, why wouldn't you? The costs will be infinitely less! The human worker needs ever increasing salaries, benefits, CoL increases, sick days, vacation days - it makes no logical sense, no financial sense, no money sense to keep the human worker. At all. And yes, my parents are correct when they say that the 55-year-old factory worker who's job has vanished isn't suddenly going to learn to text on smartphones and program and retrain for higher technology. My parents are absolutely right. But here's the issue - there ain't nothin' for them to do. Unless we want to create jobs that are meaningless, like moving one grain of sand from one pile to another with a tweezer for 8 hours a day. I don't even need them to vacuum the floor; I've got a Roomba for that. They need to face it. They are the unnecessariat. You are superfluous to the corporations and we're the ones making the money. We keep the economy going.

[edit] "At the same time, these governments did little to compensate the “losers” of globalization; made it more difficult for workers to unionize; and further decreased their leverage over employers by cutting the social safety net."

No shit, really? What do you expect when the mantra since I was 4 fucking years old is "We need to reduce costs.", "We need to cut taxes.", "We need to reduce costs MOAR.", and so on? As far as I remember, that's what the "white working class" fucking voted for. They killed their own unions. They killed their own safety net. These Boomer fucks took all that away from Gen Xers like me. Now they're whining about it. I adapted; they can fucking adapt. Reap what you've fucking sowed. They're the ones who decided against maximizing value over profit. This is what happens when you maximize profit. Eat your fucking peas.

[edit] "And there’s little evidence that our economy has an overwhelming demand for college-educated workers"

No, there's no demand. But if you don't have one? My employer will not hire you. At all. No degree? Straight into the trash, even for meanest low-entry job. And that's becoming de riguer at all global, national, and mid-size companies. No degree? No room for you. And it's not about demand; it's about making sure “certain types” of people are kept away from certain job opportunities. I.E., low-rent knuckle-draggers lower the tone in the corporate office, thanks much. --Castaigne2 (talk) 20:43, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't fully agree with the article but I felt that it was trying to say that liberals need to try and save these communities from extinction. I agree that Americans voted for this reality but we must reverse it. The two links on class you posted horrify me and I realize that they are all "obsolete" and couldn't adapt. I know that Gen Xers are fucked even if millenials turn the US into a social democracy since your wealth has already been extracracted so this trend will likely continue until it just stops.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 21:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 21:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Some questions.
1) Why is it necessary to try and save these communities from extinction? Why not let them go the natural way out?
2) Why must we reverse the trend? What about the vast majority, like me, who are fine with that trend? --Castaigne2 (talk) 14:46, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
If their skills are genuinely obsolete, then why are corporations scouring the world for cheaper sources of them? I mean if I don't need something at $10 I'm not going to need it at $5. Cheap labour is one of the advantages of setting up manufacturing in third world nations, not necessarily access to a highly skilled workforce. You say human labour costs are 'ever increasing' - Pew say that real average wages have barely budged for decades.
You further expose your ignorance of basic labour conditions within the US by pointing to sick and vacation days. The US is the only advanced economy that doesn't have mandatory paid leave, and also has no paid sick leave. In other words, it appears you don't know what you're talking about. Tokeloshe (talk) 08:42, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
For the moment non-minimum-wage muscle labor is still cheaper than capital costs. That is changing; China and the rest of the "third world" factory countries have now begun automating and you are seeing a trend of factories returning to the USA - sans jobs, of course. See the recent reversal of textile factories coming back to the USA as a prime example. The "cheap labor" in those countries is now becoming more expensive than automation. This trend shows no signs of slowing; within the next 10 years, automation will be cheaper than a $2.00/hour worker. It's all about miniaturization and maturity of technology. (And is why technology is its own mathematics variable in economics.)
You also make the mistake of thinking that wages are the sole human labor cost. Wages are only a small part. Loss of production due to sickness is a labor cost. COLA increases are a cost. Benefits of any type are a cost - and a human will require more and more in health benefits as time goes on. Every single perk that an employee gets that does not involve production (be it service or manufacture) is a cost; these costs are ever-increasing. They are never amortized.
And yes, I'm aware that the USA does not require mandatory vacation or sick days. As evidenced by your English spelling usage, you are a non-American. Socialist elements in non-American government subsidize or by law require these mandatory items. The USA being more capitalistic in nature, we have over time decreased vacation/sick in order to reduce costs. That does not reduce costs enough, so we've started eliminating people. shrugs Welcome to the sociopath ethics of American corporate capitalism. --Castaigne2 (talk) 14:46, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't labor becoming obsolete be good news?

Work is by definition people don't do voluntarily (otherwise they wouldn't have to be paid). And the jobs that have been disappearing in the last century or so are mostly of the figuratively or literally backbreaking variety. Shouldn't that be good news? After all, we still get the stuff that people used to ruin their health for but now machines do that work for us. Surely we can spread around that wealth somehow? And if really everybody needs to be employed for some intrinsic reason, we can lower work hours to divide the work by more people. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds great to me too. Unfortunately you're fighting against centuries of social programming that work is inherently noble, everyone needs to work, if you don't work you're a lazy bum leeching off society, and my stuff is mine mine mine and you can't have any of it. Unfortunately I think it'll probably get worse before it gets better. The right is increasingly moving towards neo-feudalist ideas (for instance neoreaction), where the ultra-rich will own all the robots that make everything and you get to beg them for the right to live. This is a fairly good sci-fi look at where we might be headed. --Ymir (talk) 23:02, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Here are 8 white people who pointed guns at police officers who didn't get killed!

And here are over 1400 parents who say that vaccines gave their kids autism, Asperger's, or injured them in some other way!

There are plenty of ways to show that race and class and the history of police brutality/excessive force are deeply intertwined. Let's use the ones that stick with our standards of proof. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 15:48, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Such as? -MasterofLogic (talk) 15:57, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
i dont think finding a few examples of white people not getting shot is particularly informative unless the officers involved have been shown to use less restraint with black people. I am sure you could find similar examples of black people not getting shot and it wouldnt lessen the fact that black people are disproportionately getting shot for nothing or even legitimately. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
I get that it is fallacious but the media in the US usually assassinate black people's characters after they are killed. Gun nuts usually get upset about people talking about gun control but you don't see them defend black men who legally had a gun like Philando.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 19:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 19:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
i'm not sure how more polemics in the media is helpful beyond further eroding trust in the media. This is problem - the other side comes up with a bullshit lie or exageration and and wecare all outraged. We come up with a bullshit lie and exageration and we are 'they started it'. Everyone else starts to distrust either side or just believe what best fits their existing prejudices. We are all enjoying the resulting polarization. If its bullshit its bullshit and serves no ones cause. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:29, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah you are right. If I wanted to point out hypocrisy from gun nuts, like the NRA making statements after Newton and Orlando but not after Philando's murder, then I should've found a blog on that. I was trying to point out how both cops and the media react differently when a white guy has a gun compared to a black guy who had a gun.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 19:57, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 19:57, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
I guess I really struggle as to why showing those hurt by racial disparity in policing in order to provide evidence of racial disparity in policing is so wrong. -MasterofLogic (talk) 21:39, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
mainly because it does none of that AMassiveGay (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Then how do you do it? -MasterofLogic (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
the specific artic!e does not do what you say for the reaxons i stated i meant. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:23, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
I am really struggling because I have asked what would 3 times now and you have answered a completely different question I didn't ask. -MasterofLogic (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Dallas police

Surprising number of downvotes for an article preaching unity and against discrimination. Why?TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Same reason why an article that's essentially a massive anecdotal argument is at +12, I'm guessing (it's 9+/20- versus 22+/10-). Votes are open to anyone passing by to vote on. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Probably because it's fact-free moralistic guff full of trite & frankly odd assertions about moral decay, framing #BlackLivesMatter as a threat to civilisation. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:13, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
When was that exactly? You can't just take any criticism made of something that happens to be on your side of the political spectrum and exaggerate what they're saying until it's absurd. I could just as easily say "Weaseloid thinks that people not wanting to cops to be killed are racist Nazis".TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 20:57, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

[edit] Indexing all fines to income

Why don't we just index all monetary fines to income? another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 23:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Why do you hate the rich? CLASS WARFARE!!! --Ymir (talk) 23:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
What does that have to do with hating the rich? Obviously someone earning fifty thousand bucks a month will feel differently about a five hundred Euro fine than someone earning five hundred thousand bucks a month. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 23:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
So you think people should be punished for being successful? --Ymir (talk) 23:40, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I think people should be punished for breaking the law. And the punishment should hurt similar amounts no matter who you are. Having millionaires breaking laws that are a (to them) ridiculous fine if they get caught cannot be what this is all about. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 23:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The rich being able to break laws with impunity is a reward for their hard work. If it weren't for that no one would work hard and get rich, because the government would just take all your money and give it to leeches on welfare. Really, the poor should be made to pay more, to motivate them to work harder. --Ymir (talk) 02:33, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Personally, I hate the idea, and it reeks of the kind of toxic statism that is wrong with so much of the policing in this country. Putting aside the fact that the police-industrial complex already has too much money, fines should be fixed. Crime doesn't become more wrong or expensive if you're rich or poor. It's philosophically abhorrent as it paints police work as nothing more than a way to generate revenue for the government, which partially leads to overpolicing and fatal encounters as police are pushed to pull over as many people as possible. Policing needs much more fundamental change, not just more money or incentives to go after those dastardly rich people speeding in their convertibles. Hentropy (talk) 23:03, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
But won't these fines continue to leave poor people who commit minor crimes in debt?--Owlman (talk) (mail) 23:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC) 23:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I fail to see how fining rich people more will address that particular problem, poor people will still be in debt when they are fined regardless. When someone commits a crime or does something the law doesn't want them to do, you have to punish them somehow. If the idea of putting poor people in debt when they're caught committing minor traffic offenses offends someone, maybe we should look at loosening traffic laws. Fining poor 20 bucks so that it's not a burden to them is hardly a deterrent to them committing more offenses. Rich people are more likely to just bring their lawyer to court and get them out of the ticket rather than pay it anyway, because anyone who has had a ticket knows the ticket is not nearly as bad as the raise in insurance after you're convicted. Hentropy (talk) 23:33, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The purpose of a fine is to hurt, not to generate revenue. Which is why they need to be indexed to income. If you want to have a slap on the wrist fine, you can't have it be 500€ for someone who earns USD750 a month. So indexing fines to income really means what it says. Poor people pay less, rich people pay more. In my opinion its the definition of common sense. And it is done (including for traffic offenses) in a couple of countries. See this another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 23:44, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I live in the US and your average speeding ticket where I'm at is in the $100-150 range. The only fines that total more than that are for things like DUIs or if you actually hit someone or something. Maybe it's just the former anarchist in me, but the whole idea of fines for "minor offenses" is offensive itself, if you're not willing to remove someone from society (put in them in jail) for an offense, then you shouldn't be outlawing it. Everyone knows that the vast majority of people who get pulled over for "minor offenses" weren't really doing a whole lot wrong. And of course, it ALL has to do with revenue, whether you're American or Angolan. If we're just going by policing actual dangerous things on the roads, then you could probably take half the traffic cops off the street. Hentropy (talk) 00:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Excessive velocity can actually kill people. As can drunk driving. A cavalier attitude to those offenses is exactly what lat rate fines produce. And of course a consequence of the racist and classist enforcement. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Again, if it is that dangerous, then put people in jail for it. Even if it's only for a day. That way everyone gets the same punishment and you don't have to scale up the punishment to someone's income. The money being collected from speeding tickets is not being reinvested into the community or given to cancer kids, it's going to fund the justice system and police departments. Which means police departments get more money the more people commit crimes. Don't see a problem there? In my view, if putting someone in jail even for a day seems too harsh a punishment, then it should not be criminalized. Dats jus me doe. I'm well aware most of my opinions are unpopular. Hentropy (talk) 01:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm all for it. A few complications:

  • Unemployed people? Who pays?
  • Minors? Who pays?
  • Pre- or post-tax income?
  • What kinds of income?
  • What if your income has drastically changed within one tax-year -- but the only data to work with is based on last year's taxes? A rich man gets a $10 fine, a poor gets a $1,000,000?

FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 23:47, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Given that several countries do this (albeit more do it only for criminal fines and not minor traffic things) there are surely several good approaches. You can also offer some alternative: Either pay the fine or do X amount of community service. Or whatever. Surely better than making a fox an elephant and a fish jump to measure their competence. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 00:02, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. This section is yet again people who thnk anything that doesn't happen right near them is inconceivable - David Gerard (talk) 09:46, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
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