RationalWiki talk:What is going on in the blogosphere?

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What is going on?

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[edit] Richard Dawkins

Is there something he said or intended that I missed? It really did seem like he tried as hard as he could to make clear that he wasn't trivializing the lesser of two crimes, and that which one was worse depended on the person. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not here to start a fight (although I wouldn't mind a civil debate) TheriziπosaurusG (talk) 02:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

He was molested as a child himself, so speaking of him as not being included in sexual assault survivors is erroneous - David Gerard (talk) 11:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Shorter: He's in a hole and should stop digging! Scream!! (talk) 11:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I think someone at the Friendly Atheist made a good point about how to most people, "mild pedophilia" is a bit like "mild decapitation". If he wanted to address that, he needed to lead up to it better. He probably should have found a better place to discuss it than Twitter, too. - User:PsychoGecko 19:07, 30 July 2014

[edit] reasons to lose faith in humanity

That some folk are a bit thick and/or make crap jokes is the reason and not all that war, murder, and assorted mayhem going on. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

In olden days people went down to Bedlam to laugh at the loonies. Now they are freely available on t'internet. Feeling superior gives that warm, fuzzy feeling inside. Cloud Yeller (talk) 13:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] "Humans Need Not Apply"

Scary shit. I hope it all turns out false. (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Zoe Quinn Controversy

So... what's going on here? I step away from the computer for a night's sleep and some morning work, and when I returned, Reddit and Tumblr (or, rather, the relevant parts of them) appear to be exploding, Phil Fish is having conniption fits on Twitter, allegations of censorship are flying, and there's something about Five Guys (the burger restaurant?). Even the WIGO here has a 21-vote -5 score attached to it in the 3-ish hours it's been up. Is there an unbiased source or something close to it that currently hits all the salient points out there? Noir LeSable (talk) 19:30, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Nothing worth RW time, I suspect. IP posts apparent slander, it quickly acquires downvotes ... I comment out - David Gerard (talk) 19:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
It appears it's something that's actually happened rather than slander, but the mudslinging is too strong to make heads or tails of it (not to mention doxxing?). Agreed on moving on. Noir LeSable (talk) 20:02, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the guy who posted the original WIGO. I felt that the controversy was on-mission because of the strong ties to corruption in journalism and social media junkies tend to blindly follow their "feels" without pausing to examine the situation. As for an unbiased source, there generally isn't one because most of the outlets who would cover it are suppressing it at the moment, and those that were covering it got downed shortly afterward. Everyone else is understandably rather pissed about it, so I don't know if you could call them unbiased, and most of it's on the shifting sands of 4chan anyway. The Internet Aristocrats video is currently the definitive entry-level source for explaining to people what the whole mess is all about, so I'd recommend checking that. (talk) 18:46, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
It's being discussed in the Clogosphere where it belongs, I'd hope most of the community aren't so easily swayed by a sensationalist youtube video created by somebody who has never spoke to the woman --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 23:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
It speculates and makes "strong conclusions" given uncertain evidence. It's only good to get what a biased view would look like. Nullahnung (talk) 00:24, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Noir LeSable, here is as close to an unbiased point of view (it's not possible with shitstorms like this) as you'll get from someone who actually has a public face: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s4nmr1/

TB still doesn't get some of the things that he broadly calls "SJW", but at least he tries to stay out of things he has no clue about, hence the lack of much bias. Nullahnung (talk) 00:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Should we call ISIS evil?

Yes.--Mercian (talk) 11:24, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Because that's easier on your brain than seeing them as human beings who have, through various and complex motivations, done evil things? Ikanreed (talk) 19:06, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
For quick catchy descriptions of the group or for treating the group as a kind of person, I think it works to say "evil". But, for me, it actually hurts less to describe the actions as evil and assume the actors (evil or not) are just making horrifically bad choices. MarmotHead (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
And keep in mind that as an organization, there are going to be people who see themselves as moderates, doing overall less harmful things, and forgiving those doing worse things as doing bad things for the right reason. You're right in that you can use the word "evil", but to repeat it over and over or talk about it like it's an important point does more harm than good. To get indignant about those not using the word highlights a broken xenophobic psyche. Ikanreed (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

[edit] ¿Una conspiración? QuiZARAs no.

Can I be honest here? I call Hanlon's razor. I hardly think that there was any intention for it to look like a concentration camp uniform (and even so, I didn't see it the first time I saw it... Although I have to say that I'm not crazy about the thin-striped blue-yellow contrast; a solid cream background or brown stripes if any would've fit the theme better). The swastika bag incident was less understandable, yes (I mean seriously, how many people do you have on your QA team?), but this seems more like unfortunate coincidence for a company already known for at least one Nazi-related gaff to me. :\ Noir LeSable (talk) 18:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Their reaction does suggest it was an honest mistake. They need better QA but they aren't Nazis. Abed Nadir (talk) 05:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm willing to accept that it was a mistake, but their explanation makes no sense. It was supposedly inspired by "Western cowboys," but when did cowboys wear black and white striped uniforms? RachelW (talk) 19:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
when has fashion ever made a lot of sense? AMassiveGay (talk) 09:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] "Do you still think #GamerGate was a spontaneous grassroots movement of any sort?"

Did anyone ever really think that in the first place? I mean, come on. Shadow Nirvana (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I've been calling it #GamerGhazi all this time. Vulpius (talk) 13:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Wow, hadn't seen that. Hilarious. Shadow Nirvana (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh 4chan, why must you house such immature assholes. Here's a bit of a broader perspectie on what GamersGate ultimately comes down to (many things written in this article I don't fully agree with, but I am able to acknowledge a decently researched piece when I see it): http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting Nullahnung (talk) 14:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Reading that article... Holy shit, Adam Baldwin? The Adam Baldwin? Yeah, it was a disappointment when I learnt he was a "small-government conservative" a year ago, but he is the Adam Baldwin that posts gamergate bullshit on twitter? — Unsigned, by: Shadow Nirvana / talk / contribs
I skimmed the #gamergate tag on tumblr. Yeah, there are a lot of people who think it's genuine, and likewise for #notyourshield (ostensibly people of color claiming that social justice advocates don't speak for them; in actuality it was started as a front by 4chan as part of the #gamergate offensive). I'm guessing a lot of real people have latched onto these because they are genuinely pissed off at some of the more hardline SJW's. Abed Nadir (talk) 08:33, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Also, I think I heard that somebody deliberately pulled Baldwin into the fray, mimicking Scientology's "grab a celebrity, reap the publicity" strategy. Abed Nadir (talk) 08:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh don't get me wrong, I know that what they are feeling is genuine hatred and/or resentment towards "SJW"s(although I would preferably not use a perjorative). What I and the WIGO-poster was getting at was that it wasn't a grassroots movement to "restore journalistic integrity" or anything like that. They wouldn't harrass the shit out of Patricia Hernandez when it was found out that she had written an op-ed not a news article and it was the Guardian who found her connection to her subject too flimsy to report. Or the fact that there has been zero peep from these folk regarding AAA title scandals. Or the shit that Zoe Quinn gathered on an IRC that had 480 people. Stuff like that.
Notyourshield seems too funny to me, because as they themselves are crying about the "end of gamers" articles that were written (which were meant as the end of gamer identity as "nerdy awkward white Western teenage boy" and it becoming more diverse) , their response to it was saying "Gamers are diverse". Yeah well, that's what we've been saying. But they mean it as "us diverse gamers don't want none of your new ideas and equality crap". That's where someone points out the obvious sockpuppets like "afeministwoman" or "Patricia Nelson/patriciaxh"(Patricia Hernandez's account is xpatriciah) and logicalblackguy/logical minority. And one point out the astroturfs. Then you see the fact that notyourshield gets hashtagged as much as gamergate by the 4chan crew, one understands that it's pretty much a dumbass hashtag. Shadow Nirvana (talk) 18:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I also don't understand the endgame, even if this was legit. Let's combine on a hashtag to decry "journalistic corruption". Then? Shadow Nirvana (talk) 19:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Futrelle's been going the chat logs of the IRC channel. Folks be crazy, yo.. --Maxus (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I read it. Initial response: "Aaaah, wtf", secondary response: "Man, that guy has the mental fortitude and the stomach strength of a .... well, he has a high mental fortitude and a strong stomach.". Seriously though. What happened to them that made them like this? Shadow Nirvana (talk) 20:50, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't know exactly, but a quick skim through ED seems to suggest that much much worse has happened at the hands of the more disreputable boards (the worst being /b/). Be careful not to lump all boards into just a broad "4chan" label. There are relatively well-behaved ones. Nullahnung (talk) 21:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Worse than "Hey let's send nudes of her to her parents and loved ones, let's dox her home-adress and phone and harass her to shit, hope that she kills herself, organize a fakeass movement to get all SJWs deported from game journalism." Dunno. This seems to be the magnum opus of 4chan and the lowest internet anonymity can get. Also, I'd understand when that argument is made about reddit, saying that they have good subreddits, too(although pretty rare). But 4chan to me seems like the ultimate cesspool. Shadow Nirvana (talk) 21:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, worse than all that. They actually harassed someone to the point of suicide... (I'm not going to link you to any of it as it is rather depressing to read) Also, there are a lot more boards @ 4chan than the big ones that are known by the others to be cesspools. /tg/ is relatively tame, I heard /a/ was too. Don't generalise to the point of including all of 4chan, it makes you seem ignorant, is all I'm saying. Nullahnung (talk) 22:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
That's hashtag activism for you, I suppose? (#KONY2012! 3! 4!!) I'll be honest; I haven't really been paying attention to the whole incident since the first allegations and responses spawned, and I'm not fully aware on what's genuine, what's Hanlon, and what's 4chan. Judging from what it sounds like at this point, I'm not sure I even want to know. (On a side note, speaking as a 2nd gen Korean-American, while I do have qualms about certain activism done for Asians/PoC, even I can tell how silly the #notyourshield hashtag is in this context) Noir LeSable (talk) 19:52, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems to me like Twitter was a bad idea in general. Nullahnung (talk) 20:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Lots of people are still taking it seriously, and I have little suspicion that actual evidence that it was intentionally malicious and directed at Quinn for sexual reasons will change anything. Misogyny is too endemic, and admitting to it is too toxic for "neutral" assholes. Ikanreed (talk) 20:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Labels

It doesn't help that people don't specify which people they mean when they just fling labels around like "SJW" or "MRA" or "neutral assholes" and then of course everyone will interpret these labels differently and Twitter's character limit doesn't help. That's one of the roots of why none of this debacle is in any way productive and a huge waste of everyone's time, vague labeling. Nullahnung (talk) 20:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You've had this conversation before: SJW would be for example a feminist, like Jessica Valenti, David Futrelle, Amanda Marcotte or Anita Sarkeesian. MRA would be Paul Elam, Stephan Molyneux or Janet Bloomfield (or if you take the definition loosely, 4channers). Neutral Asshole would be, off the top of my head, Richard Dawkins. Although he does keep retweeting rightwing nutjobs and antifeminists a lot. So maybe he's not so neutral. He is an asshole though. The definitions aren't really vague. And the "discussion" is pretty much of a manichean nature. Shadow Nirvana (talk) 21:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Let me link something (I don't like doing this, I think everybody should speak for themselves, but in this case I think longer paragraphs are needed): http://blueplz.blogspot.de/2014/08/this-game-supports-more-than-two-players.html
Let me be clear about this, TB doesn't know a whole lot about the subject (but he knows enough to recognize that there is horrible harassment/doxxing/hacking going on) and should be treated as a first impressions kind of outside observer. Thus I don't think TB makes an accurate assessment that terms like "MRA" are meaningless, I do believe they hold meaning at their cores, since there are actually groups who self-label as MRA (Paul Elam and Co.). I do however think TB's got a point when he says that these labels generally get applied so broadly as to appear essentially meaningless snarl words to the outside observer. Ikanreed above for example just throws out "neutral asshole" without further elaboration of who he could mean. That could be anyone... It could mean people who are actually biased against feminism and trying to pose as "neutral" (I do note the quotation marks Ikanreed was using), it could mean people who just sit on the fence proclaiming that people are freaking out over nothing and being ignorant of harassment/censorship/slander evidence, it could mean anyone. This is what often just happens. You throw out an increasingly broadly applied label on twitter where there's a character limit or in some other format, but lazily, and expect to have said something meaningful, when really all you did was add contentless vitriol. Be less vague. Specify who you actually mean by attributing specific actions like "malignant assholes who discussed about hacking into Quinn's accounts" or "made a video spreading slanderous allegations and rumours". Don't just resort to lazy unhelpful labels like "SJW". Nullahnung (talk) 22:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
It's possible "neutral" assholes may have been a reference to this TB fellow whom you described further up the page as "as close to an unbiased point of view as you'll get", and whom you seem to be citing once again as somebody who doesn't know much about this subject but who should still somehow be regarded as an authority on it. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
It's possible, yes. I don't believe I characterised him very accurately further up the page, I probably shouldn't have said he was unbiased or suggested that he was an authority, which is why I now have seemingly contradicting views about him on the same page. I do believe he has a point about some things. Nullahnung (talk) 01:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
"Neutral assholes" actually referred to random people I don't know defending this on more mainstream discussion sites, who like to say that they have no part in it, but then implicitly endorse the awful terrible people with their next statement. But clearly from all these different interpretations that fell out from that, I did a awful job of expressing myself. Ikanreed (talk) 18:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] I do believe it was

As someone who has been following this from the beginning I can honestly say that yes I do still feel like this is a "grass roots" movement. At first I didn't really care, corruption in the gaming industry is nothing new. It has generally been big players that are to untouchable and all that can be done is vote them worst company of the year (EA) and laugh at their terrible reviews (IGN). So some relatively unknown game dev sleeping with people for good reviews, though not a great showing of journalistic integrity, isn't such a big deal. (Also I think it came out afterwards that she didn't have sex without Grayson until after his review but they did go to Vegas together before, whatever). However no statements like "we do not condone the alleged actions of one of our members bla bla it will be looked into" or what I said in the parentheses in the previous comment was put out by the sites involved which probably would have ended the whole thing. Instead talk of the issue is removed and covered up [1][2][3] on gaming sites across the web. The inevitable Streisand effect blew the whole thing up (this is where I started caring). After learning about what Zoe did to TFYC and Wizardchan[4][5][6][7](what a sad, sad place, also that wizchan breakdown might be a little cherry picky but you get the idea), I lost all respect for her and started paying closer attention to the whole thing. It was uncovered that many journalists and devs had close relationships in the indie gaming scene, not necessarily sexual, but by paying each other through Patreon and journalists writing reviews of games made by their friends [8][9][10][11]. During this time a tide of articles came out about gamers being angry misogynistic racist homophobic straight cis white males that are just out to get minorities in the gaming industry (nevermind all the donations made to TFYC and that most devs and journalists criticized were white males), shockingly most of the sites that posted these articles were the very ones accused of journalistic corruption. This was a ploy to divert the issue away from journalistic ethics and divide the issue into a Left vs. Right dichotomy. It is semi-successful in doing so (look no further than here) thanks to some liberal blogs/sites(not going to name names here but one has already been linked in the discussion) doing knee jerk uninformed articles (and I assume that there were conservative sites who did knee jerk counterclaims right back) and /pol/ trying to stir things up and rile the SJ community (like always) so they can have their little holy war. The only problem with this strategy is that gamers are not a homogeneous group, gamers come from all backgrounds and ideologies and yes that means some are misogynist, racist, and dumb as dirt. It's a diverse community, stop the generalizations. There has been too much stupid shit said on both sides because people don't know what the issue is or are trying to push their own agenda, not that it comes as a shock considering it's taking place on Twitter and every site seems to be a different echo chamber for one side or another...
For a breakdown of 4chans involvement, a better summery of events, and the accusations of misogyny here's a good read, all claims backed up with direct sources. https://medium.com/@cainejw/a-narrative-of-gamergate-and-examination-of-claims-of-collusion-with-4chan-5cf6c1a52a60
TL;DR It IS about journalistic integrity. The focus is not Zoe she's just a catalyst that set it into motion, and there has been a bunch of BS diluting the issue. At the very least read the link above. If anyone has counter claims I am open to hearing them.
(I regret that this will be my first post but it's something I care about and I'm sorry if I made any mistakes in how I posted this, it's 1AM. Don't judge me to harshly) El Psy Congroo (talk) 08:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes the pinnacle of rational discussion; ignore and dismiss those who have a different viewpoint. Thank you for enlightening me. What part of what I said was less rational than saying gamergate is conspiracy devised and orchestrated by 4chan to oppress women (or something?) proven by some cherry picked screenshots of a super secret public IRC posted by none other than the infallible Zoe Quinn who has had such a great track record of not being a horrible dishonest human being (never doxxing TFYC, DDOSing their game jam, starting her own with funds going to her personal account, feigning harassment for promotion for her game about depression in doing so hurting a bunch of actually depressed people, cheating on her boyfriend to bolster her carer all while telling him infidelity removes consent and is akin to rape[12][13], saying she was doxxed when she wasn't). The link I already posted talks about her claims made about 4chan. I backed up my arguments so the least you can do is give me honest criticism instead of hiding my post with a sarcastic meme. El Psy Congroo (talk) 19:07, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I am busy, but let's go through your points.
1- Reviews written by Nathan Grayson about Zoe Quinn: There are I think, a couple. One of them mentions a GameJam, one of the people in it was Quinn, so her name gets mentioned. The other is a list of games that got into Greenlight. Sorry to burst your bubble, but nobody slept with anyone for good reviews. Also, people can go to trips with friends, without the fucking. Even if they were however, the lack of "good reviews" is a detriment to your argument.
2- Wizardchan: Here's what I said before about the imagedumps: "Wow, that link is so much bullshit. Just a quick skim shows crying about censorship(steam comments tweet), victim blaming(guy saying "you went to the cesspool of internet what did you expect? for them to be nice?"), zero understanding of depression(guy saying "I would criticize a male who has a partner, job and friends if he said he was depressed." Because that's what depression is), ultra-powerful defence("people here are too scared to call and speak to a girl, it can't be us!").And so on. " Last time one of her friends' was there with her to hear the phone call, this time around her friends' even put videos of the phone calls they recorded.(although I don't think this time was Wizardchan, but cba to check through her twitter.)
3- Censoring: Come on. Did you even watch the video(by thefiveguys or something) that started this? It had the evidence level of a video saying "if you squint hard enough, you can see bigfoot.". Why should anyone let such drivel any air time. Before you cry "freeze peach" reddit, kotaku etc are private entities and have no obligation to give you airtime.
4- Patreon and friendships in the indie community: You guys do realize that unlike people in AAA companies that wine and dine bigshot game journalists, these people are there because they like games. They like games, they connect to others that like games, they support each other. The fact that you guys believe that reviews of any kind can be unbiased sounds extremely naive. So unless they are lying about the technical aspects of the game or being misleading about the content... How is it a problem?
5- Left vs. Right: I'm not the one posting Breitbart articles with a hashtag attached to them. Seriously, frigging Breitbart, talk about ethical journalism. None of the anti-gamergate side has even published a "right vs left" article. Heck, maybe I haven't seen it though.
6- TFYC: First off, Zoe Quinn herself hasn't harmed TFYC. She criticized their payment rate(only %8 of the royalties are yours), their attitude towards trans people(they don't accept preop trans women) and the fact that your idea will belong to them once you start working with them, even if you are unsatisfied with their actions and support. These seem to me as valid criticisms. The problem was I think someone (her friend?) posted their facebook info and this caused some people to harrass them(or one person to harrass them?). This of course is unacceptable. But considering the fact that when that same harrassment happens to Sarkeesian or Quinn, the same GG dudes that were all over this say they are "attention-whoring", "being proffesional victims", "maybe they are lying about being harrassed". etc etc. So forgive me, if I don't believe the sincerity.
7- DMCA: I've said this before, if she's the one who made a false DMCA claim, that makes her look catty and petty, although I haven't seen the video's content thus cannot say if it was fake or not. I don't even know if she's the one who did it.
8- Death of gamers: You know that the entire argument is about the fact that "gamer= white Western awkward teenage male" equivalency is dying, right? People who play video games are a diverse community... Gamergate, not so much.
9- Harrassment: We have the IRC logs of a channel with 480+ people in it (thousands of pages), the analysis isn't so heartwarming.
May have missed a point here and there, oh well. The reason it may have been collapsed is we actually replied to the majority of these arguments before. And we really don't believe their sincerity and truthfulness. Shadow Nirvana (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I like how Congroo denies this whole kerfuffle was misogynistic, while perpetuating the same old unfounded misogynistic canards (Quinn slept with someone to bolster her career etc). ωεαşεζόίďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
This is a recurring problem I've seen, actually regardless of context. Really harmfully bigotted people won't consider the notion that they're bigotted, because that's wrong, and no your wrong. I've mentally been calling it "the race card card". Ikanreed (talk) 20:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
What gets me is how vehemently they attack her (and Sarkeesian got this too) for "playing the victim". That is only a problem of their own making. If they didn't want her to look like the victim maybe they shouldn't have spent 3,000 pages of conversation talking about how much they want to rape and murder her.
Also, getting back to one of Congroo's original points: that it's a "grassroots movement." No it isn't. This is factually incorrect. 4channers planned the entire thing. The IRC logs in which they detail their plans to astroturf #GamerGate are up there for anyone who wants to know what actually happened to read. Zoe originally posted them here, but for anyone crying "she faked it OMG OMG ZOE IS A LIAR", the 4chan fucknuts posted the whole goddamn thing themselves, here. She actually cut out the worst of the misogyny because her point in doing this was to prove it was astroturfed, not to play the victim. Abed Nadir (talk) 06:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you all for your input, good points have been brought up.
@shadow Nirvana. 1- You are absolutely right, also I was not trying to implying that they had sex on the Vegas trip. I believed, wrongfully, that he had written a review for RPS and I did not think friends should do that. Thanks for clearing that up.
2- I don't think the "cesspool of the internet" guy was there to help either side but rather to be an asshole considering he's insulting both the wizards and victim blaming. As for zero understanding of depression, that's a pretty harsh generalization of the community based on one persons comment. I just went to /v9k/ to check it out and I'd say that they have a rather good understanding of depression. I haven't heard that last claim before, is there any way to easily shift through a person's twitter post history, she has so many. I don't really like this image set but it's the only one I'm aware of and I don't have time to go make a better version.
3-Yes the websites can do whatever they want but that doesn't mean they cannot be criticized for their actions and when someone goes to these sites to have them remove threads or articles people are interested in its hard for it not to look like a cover-up.
4- Though Rab Florence may look dead inside after selling his soul to Dewritos and AAA I'm sure deep down he still loves videogames and that goes for everyone on the gaming totem pole no matter how high. Shouldn't the people who most sincerely care about video games be concerned about not biasing themselves and misleading their audience and put out articles that are deeper than sensationalist clickbate? The AAA and Indie scenes as of now are not that different. The main difference being that one will someday fall under the weight of its own corruption and the other can be still be saved.
5-What I meant by splitting the movement into a left vs right situation are the articles about gamers being opposed to social justice concepts being put into games by the devs. Though an article like that doesn't say anything about political divides I can't say I've met to many right wingers with a passion for social justice or at least the same definition of it.
6- Zoe is the one who said she DDoSd TFYC "on accident". Their trans policy does not exclude those who have not had surgery and the only people denied are those who have not identified until very recently, this is obviously put there to prevent actual men from applying (Why yes I am a woman, ever since this morning), people are payed 8% (10% to the Production company that develops the game, 8% for future contests, 74% split among various charities) but they are given all the resources and money needed to create a game and "all the art they own, everything else they own". As for the limit of revisions to what they want to make "The reason why we have those rules is because we could easily spend one-hundred thousand dollars on just continually redoing a pitch. We've been in productions where that's happened". This was all explained to Zoe but she went on twitter with her friend Maya (aka legobutts Zoes lover/friend/PR agent, she's a whole nother story) and starts a firestorm against TFYC in which Maya doxxes them, it is retweeted by Zoe and Kramer of TFYC receives a death threat (is there anyone left at this point who hasn't?). They also DDoS TFYC site and gloat about it. TFYC loses business partners and Kramer has to pay $10,000 to cover the losses. Chloi Rad Editor-in-Chief of IndieStatik did an interview of TFYC but decided not to publish it after Zoe told her TFYC was transphobic. Zoe starts up her own gamejam (though the last one didn't go so great). As I stated earlier this is where I started caring and it is because of Zoe's actions here that I am inclined to believe that the accusations that she lied about Wizchan, I have judged her character as not one who stands for social justice but rather opportunism. I've said a lot about TFYC and I hope I got all the events in order, there's more to say but this has already become another huge textpost so I'll move on to your other points. The harassment of Anita and Quinn is not condoned by gamergate and those are the people who make the movement look bad. The harassment happens on both sides and is partially the reason for such strong resentment between people of opposing views.
(Splitting my post because its blocking me)
7-I didn't bring this up but the DMCA was filed because of a screenshot in the video of the depression quest steam page, technically the video should never have been taken down because this is not footage of her game but it was reuploaded without the picture anyway. I don't see it be a stretch that she had it taken down considering she had the r/gaming mod take down discussion of the events.
8- I don't know If you read the articles or not but they are not about ending the gamer identity as a "white Western awkward teenage male", that stereotype died with the '90s, but the articles are attempting to paint the gamer identity with that brush so they can have their strawman to beat up and then say "look everyone we have slain the these horrid gamergate people whose campaign is to keep social justice out of gaming". Meanwhile ignoring that the real issue had nothing to do with that but that people were mad about their journalistic practices. Notyourshield grew out people getting frustrated with these article distorting the issue and where the complaints were coming from (people of all backgrounds) along with people constantly being bombarded with ad hominem/genetic attacks on twitter labeling them as the people described before in order to dismiss their arguments. As for fake accounts, those benefit no one because it is extremely easy to find out whether or not they are fake so either side can claim that such accounts were set up to discredit them. But a large majority of the tweets are sincere and backed up by pictures when called out.
There's a problem with my last point that is flagging it as troll and I'm to tired to figure out what it is right now El Psy Congroo (talk) 09:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
For this total outsider, if the "gamer community" want to be seen as other than white western awkward teenage males with an over inflated sense of privilege then they need to stop acting that way. Personally, given the vile shit that has gone down, I'd be happy to blame it all on a minority of 4chan trolls but, if you're saying that this is how the grass roots behaves.... Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 09:30, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
A good start would be if this "movement" didn't primarily target women. Vulpius (talk) 02:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a good read (follow the link to the Google Plus post) [14] --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for posting that, I felt like I haven't seen enough sensible (and knowledgeable about games media) people talking about this. Cool heads who actually want to discuss issues should always prevail. There is a bit of an accuracy problem with Anita's critiques sometimes, but silencing her for it does nobody any favours. Nullahnung (talk) 22:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
That's okay. If I honestly thought this was about corruption in the industry I would support it, I'm just confused why it hasn't focused around the big gaming companies buying their reviews. From the outside (or I guess relative inside having read so many articles on it) this looks like one ideology versus a different ideology, as they primarily form their complaints around "SJW" rather than gaming corporations --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 01:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

[edit] How this parallels other paranoid conspiracy theories that destroyed lives

Well written articles but actual journalists like this don't convince anyone, as we've all seen but it touches on how this craziness ends up being even more on mission for rationalwiki than just generic misogyny. The same imagined threads of conspiracy connecting outgroup to "our outright destruction". Ikanreed (talk) 13:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

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