User talk:𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈/Archive 4

Latin

Following your request, here you are. I just wanted to know if there was a fellow Latin nerd on board. I'm studying Icelandic (major) and General Linguistics (minor) since I had the opportunity to go back to University, and this combination allows me to concentrate on ancient languages, comparative linguistics and so forth. What are your main interests? As for me, I have superficial knowledge in many fields, but I'm not an expert in any of my hobbies. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not an expert in Latin, but Imperium Rōmānum is an interest of mine so inevitably I have picked up on some Latin. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 20:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Hic forum est. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Avenger, I was in fact highly offended by the writing on your talk page. Hoc est bellum. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 20:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Just for the fun of it, one of my assignments due Tuesday is a thorough analysis of the first 14 verses of this. Along with Das Kapital, Mein Kampf and assorted other rubbish, this is one of the last books I would ever study word for word, but approaching it linguistically, it's a lot of fun. My only regret is that Wulfila did't translate Livy instead - and that his translation had been preserved. :-) Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 20:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Assuming that there is a missing smiley, what's the casus belli? :-) Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 20:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I am guessing my lack of opinion on some controversial issue. Because - let's face it - fighting over somebody's stated opinion is boooooorrrrriiiiinnnngg ;-) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I enjoy Das Kapital. Also, why do you label Mein Kampf trash? Hitler was an animal loving http://www.zgargamellu.cz/_images/_ruzne/hitler_blondi.JPG hero of Germany who fought the evils trying to destroy his society. He was closely associated and respected the admirable Japanese and their warrior traditions http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZfYOetD7g70/TrtsG-Wu_pI/AAAAAAAAHLc/GMN-tsjOrlE/s1600/japanese-beheads-captured-american-pilot.jpg I mean, the European countries were on the same exact continent as him http://maps.unomaha.edu/peterson/funda/MapLinks/EuropeOverview/Europe_econ96.jpg it was only logical to invade. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

comedy gold - If you have to analyze Hitler's crap, look no further thaen there Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

But..but the Jews.....you're just brainwashed by mainstream media. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Which Jews? Somuncu is a German citizen born in Istanbul Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict 3 or so)Once browsing Das Kapital, it took me about 5 minutes to see Marx employing a vicious circle, deriving his conclusions from his assumptions in four lines or so. I don't have to eat the entire pot to determine if the soup is burnt. As for Mein Kampf, I've never read it, but take the word of friends for it, that I should only read it for historical interest - the book itself is - I'm told - among the most boring literature in existence. And to correct myself, I have Luke II 1-14, not Luke I. Do take a look at the Wulfila Project, it's very good. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 20:48, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm mocking a very "special" group of people. And Karl is not exactly the most rational person. If you heard bad reviews from your friends of Mein Kampf perhaps you should instead see The Greatest Story Never Told, it's trending propaganda bullshit. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 20:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I remember reading the Communist Manifesto in school - though it was never part of any class. Ah... good times Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Socialism has recently caught my eye, any opinions on that? I'm trying to figure out more about it and if it can be used practically. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 20:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Looking up The Greatest Story Never Told turns up some rapper. That can't be it, or can it? I didn't phrase Karl's vicious circle correctly, but you understood, so all is well. He gave his premises and then presented them as a conclusion. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

His work is riddled with fallacies. http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/ <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict - guys, aren't we writing too fast?) By the American definition, or at least that of American Conservatives, the Scandinavian countries are all Socialist hell. That may be a start. :-) Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Socialism is probably the most ill-defined political term that ever existed Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. You might mention right and left as useless terms as well. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Note that the original headline was "Latin"... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

True, but conversations have a tendency to evolve, and nobody has yet resorted to name-calling. Having said that, to bring us back on topic, I'll just mention that my Latin teacher is highly conservative in her teaching methods, which pleases me immensely. Paper and pencil, glossing, translating both ways and no PowerPoint slide in sight although she does use the computer to show solutions of last session's assignments and she passes extra material out on paper since that way we are forced to show up, unless ill. The woman immediately won my heart and mind. This is practically the only way to learn a language. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

PS: The only way given the absence of native speakers. And when teaching a foreign language you should give the students an overview of the grammar in the beginning. First you have a glimpse of the forest then you go on studying the trees instead of having, e.g., students of German discovering in their second year that German has a dative. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Latin and living languages are usually taught differently. In the teaching of living languages, an emphasis is placed upon speech. In the teaching of Latin an emphasis is placed upon translating texts. I personally prefer the former, as I can't speak Latin, but I can speak the modern languages I had extensive classes in Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

More generally dead languages are taught differently. But the point about the grammar is valid for dead and living languages. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I mean of course forms of communication had to evolve differently in isolated groups of people, but IMO it would be better if there was a universal or just continental language. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 21:30, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is of course a matter of opinion. But after having had a classical education in German - more or less along the lines of Latin except that we were taught to speak - it took me about 3 weeks to become fully fluent when I then went to Germany. Prost Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Having just one language would impoverish us greatly. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Well given current trends, English might be becoming this language. Whether we like it or not. I personally would prefer for Esparanto to gain more traction, but I am not currently able to speak it, so... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

It would break down the worst of the communication barriers for sure from a strictly usefulness view. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 21:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well, I'm not so sure about that. Time will tell. But I assume you do differntiate between having a lingua franca and having everyone speak the same native language. In the latter case, my entire cultural heritage would vanish, and I think that would be a bad thing to put it mildly. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

As for an ideal language of communication we just have to pick a small language to be fair to most. I'd suggest Icelandic, but that means unfair advantage for Germans. Esperanto is far too European and inconsistent to be of use. How about Burushaski? Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I quite frankly don't understand cultural pride and related concepts. A lingua franca would not be that easy to adopt as growing up in an environment where a language is spoken is the easiest way to learn it. Perhaps instead one or two languages will gradually become so dominant that this will be fully realized. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Then you'll just have to accept that they are there. I find my language beautiful, and I don't want it to vanish. As a matter of fact, most people are protective of their native languages. Native English speakers tend to be monoglot and see nothing wrong with English replacing the rest of the world's languages, but they are practically alone in that respect. 1,3 billion Chinese might disagree, to name just one case. Skál Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Is this about usefulness, or cultural "pride"? <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 21:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) PS: It is a myth that sharing a language reduces the chances of conflict. There are three African countries which can be called homogeneous regarding language: Rwanda,Burundi and Somalia. To answer the question, no, it's a matter of aesthetics. Cheers Sorte Slyngel (talk) 21:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That's kind of irrelevant since I never acknowledged that myth. But, I wish you a good day and hope the edit wars have not negatively impacted your experience here. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 21:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(conflictus edtionis) Being homogeneous is not a guarantee for anything. One of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world is North Korea. In a sense Rwanda and Somalia are ethnically homogeneous as well, however, the one ethnicity that inhabits said countries has been subdivided either by clan or by Tutsi/Hutu in recent times. As to one single world language... If you observe contemporary English, the very moment it spreads far enough, a language spoken mostly by native speakers will differentiate into several distinct mutually incomprehensible tongues. Just like Latin did. Hence a second-language world language is the better choice. And as for the loss of native languages, I do agree. Mexico would be poorer in spirit without its Nahuatl and Maya heritage that - contrary to popular belief - is alive and thriving and numbers more thaen 1 million. Though efforts to preserve and strengthen this heritage are not as good as they could be Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The only thing left would be deciding what said second language would be. Auxiliary languages are already unpopular. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(Another edit conflict - it's 22:00 over here, so I think I'll take a break) I didn't look at this as a war - I just had unusually many edit conflicts. But people tend to fond of their native languages. You speak English since you were born where you were, I speak it because it is necessary as a lingua franca. As for lingae francae, English is not the only one - there are a lot of them depending on where you are in the world. Just to make sure, I have no hard feelings - it's just that I find a monoglot world a dreary prospect and I'm not only thinking about my own native language. I see it as a great loss, when a language becomes extinct. The second language has already been decided for most of the world. Swahili for instance. And speaking 3-4 or more languages is much more common worldwide than usually realized. Regarding English, nothing lasts forever. Akkadian used to be the language of diplomacy in its time and so on. We'll just have to see how things develop. Cheers Sorte Slyngel (talk) 22:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the language of whatever civilization can project it's influence the most will remain/become the most spoken. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 22:10, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Is monolingualism all that common among relatively well-off people in any countries except the Anglosphere? China maybe? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't know, but are the most spoken Chinese variants mutually intelligible? <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 22:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

About Chinese - no. Even Mandarin (800.000 or so speakers) which is their means of communications is split into various dialects which can be mutually unintelligible. There is actually no such thing as the Chinese language - the Sinitic languages are called „dialects“ for political reasons. All best Sorte Slyngel (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

For a nearby example of monolingualism, France springs to mind. The French are according to experience and reporting not all that happy to speak anything else. And now, finally, I'm exhausted, so I bid you gentlemen goodnight. Sorte Slyngel (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Before the 19th century I believe most Chinese people spoke their local village languages. Quite interesting how it's a cohesive nation, but then isn't India similar language wise (in having many different local ones). <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(And yet another e.c. :-) True enough. Here's what I wrote before: It seems I just killed off 799.200.000 Mandarin speakers. Should have been 800.000.000 Heftig errötend verläßt Euch jetzt Sorte Slyngel (talk) 22:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Alright, it's been very interesting. Cheers mate. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 22:29, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(Yet another e.c. - I'm starting to see double) Anyway, here's what I wanted to leave you with: ::::::Not all Chinese subjects are happy, Tibetans, Turkic speaking peoples etc. As for India, you're right but you might want to have a look at Ethnologue for the fun of it. Sorte Slyngel (talk) 22:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(insert swearword; edit conflict) Just an aside, Sorte Slyngel, there has been a change in German orthography in the 1990s/2000s, mostly affecting the "ß" as well as several minor things like "Foto" now being a thing. Basically if it is a short vowel, you get "ss". If it is a diphtong, you get "ß" though. Anyhoo... If I am not misinformed, most Chinese manners of speaking look quite similar when written down. Maybe even the same. As empires operate mostly on the written word, it becomes quite easily understandable how China stayed a mostly cohesive thing for so long. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that would explain a lot. Thanks for sharing that bit of information. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 22:38, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm aware of the spelling „reform“. I decided not to learn the new rules. Many leading, and highly respected newspapers refused to follow suit as well. And now finally, good night, I'm exhausted Sorte Slyngel (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

There are some things I don't agree with about the new spelling (it gets rid of too many "ph" spellings in my mind) but on the whole the reform was right and needed and all newspapers I know of (except for this one) have adopted the new spellings or some compromise that mostly ends up being new spellings with a few exceptions. However, it is helpful in dating German statements Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

For another topic - a question for Avenger

Howdy again. I'm regrettably an insomniac, so getting ready for bed can take its time. I'd just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation which I think can be called civilized. :-)

But to ask Avenger: You mentioned that you had had the first discussion without Israel or name calling on your page. I'm very happy to have started that one. This has to be a nice change for you.

As for me, I've already spewed this year's quota of venom elsewhere - and that was only one guy - but otherwise I've been made to feel very welcome here. The only danger lies in getting addicted. :-) I really do look forward to having nice conversations with both of you. And I'll return to my relaxing before sleep routine, which right now involves reading Lucky Luke. And yes, I am a grown man, but cartoons before sleep are just what I need, preferably if I have read them before, so I don't have to think. :-) We'll see if this starter evolves. Góða nótt Sorte Slyngel (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

@Avengerofthe BoN <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (talk) 23:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)