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Is ethics analytically or empirically solvable?[edit]

Work into AI development often runs into the issue of instilling a strong sense of ethics into whatever general intelligence we bring into existence in the future. The main difficulty with giving a machine a sense of ethics is that we need to rigidly define what right and wrong or good and bad is in principle and not just action. This often results in thought experiments where horrible consequences result from tiny misunderstandings in the original definitions given to a machine. My question is as follows: Is the goal of actually solving ethics possible. Why or why not?

My opinion is that it is solvable, but any actual solution would have to avoid accumulation of authority or power over others to prevent draconian enforcement on others. A principle of unilateral opportunity being a fundamental right and ultimate good would be essential. Please keep in mind that any actual solution would not please everyone, but merely has to not end in genocide, total stagnation, or universal misery to be acceptable.— Unsigned, by: MirrorIrorriM / talk / contribs

"we need to rigidly define what right and wrong or good and bad is in principle and not just action."
Not necessarily, this is the case if your approach to ethics is consequentialistWikipedia's W.svg. If your approach to ethics is deontologicalWikipedia's W.svg, then you have to define only which actions are good and which are bad.
"This often results in thought experiments where horrible consequences result from tiny misunderstandings in the original definitions given to a machine."
That's indeed a general problem of deontology. On the other hand, AI consequentialism could lead to other horrors. Asimov wrote a lot about AIs that become somehow "evil" in order to avoid future consequences of humans behavior.
"Is the goal of actually solving ethics possible?"
I think this question is too vague to be answered. In dealing with concrete AI ethics problems (for example, AI driving cars or doing surgery), I believe that satisfactory solutions are possible. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Ethics is one of those things that is specifically biological, in that it is a product of evolution and modularized in human and other primate brains. What we call ethics is a group of imperfectly solved problems involving cohesion in human societies. Ethics is never binary, it is always analog. The various modules (e.g. purity and disgust, loyalty and treason, fairness and sharp dealing) not only have different strengths in different situations, but they differ in relative strength between one person and another. This is why people have different values and different politics. The salience of ethics itself differs from one person to another, which is why some people hold lasting grudges, and others let bygones be bygones. A computer can at best hope to mimic this very imperfectly. Reducing this complex and imperfect system to an algorithm is impossible. Even if it could, the algorithm would only reflect the ethical outcomes thought best by the programmer(s), and other people who stress different ethical modules would favor different outcomes and reject the algorithm as fatally flawed. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 17:42, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
A machine has a much greater potential number of personalities than a living biological lifeform. Biology has evolved to prevent personalities that are completely unhinged as it hurts survival prospects. A random AI personality could have a far greater range of quirks than mere biology. Further, if multiple such entities were to exist, they would have some means of dealing with each other that would range from omnicidal to mutually beneficial. There is no reason a machine intelligence would be incapable of ethics if a biological intelligence is capable of it.
Again, of course some people are not going to like whatever system is arrived at. That isn't the question. Can a set of principles, which are decided at the outset, be used to derive a grading for the "wrongness" of an action which is not subject to system breaking problems at ultimate extrapolation.
I think the problem with defining individual actions as with a deontological solution is that you do not know all possible actions and all situations. You would need an effectively infinite list, something impractical to run a search algorithm through. This is why I argue that the principle is necessary to define, as the alternative is impossible through sheer amount of work necessary to define it. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 22:22, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
What do you mean by "system breaking problems at ultimate extrapolation?" One could program a computer to make decisions. If you don't require everyone to agree that they are ethical decisions then it is just a mechanical decision engine. Ariel31459 (talk) 00:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Biology has evolved to prevent personalities that are completely unhinged as it hurts survival prospects. Yes, and that's the point. Evolved ethics has a purpose -- improving the odds of human survival by encouraging cooperative behavior, striking a balance between individualism and collective well being, and leveraging that for survival and reproductive success. It fails mostly because there are things it can't see, because they were not conspicuous in the environment that generated these routines. The massive environmental impact of human activity is one obvious example. If computerized ethical systems are somehow tested by the way they lead to enough cooperation to allow survival and reproduction, they might approach human ethical decision making with all its blind spots and flaws. This ethical decision making progress would not be any better than our own. It might, as you say, be weirder and more improvident, because the environment it exists in and the factors it is allowed to perceive and consider are limited by its programming in an even more drastic way than ours are. They will always be worse at making decisions than we are, and we aren't that great ourselves. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 07:21, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
This is a weird set of parameters for ethical judgement. We are assuming that machines or AI cannot perceive past or future ethics better than a human can. I disagree with that. But I also disagree that ethics can be implemented in a correct way. Kantian ethics say it's always unethical to lie, but are also based in an interpretation of existence that includes eternal life and final divine punishment. Yet this interpretation has held pretty steadfastly. With machine or AI ethics, the threat is that our own ethics are not going to be competitive, and somehow humanity will fail in the face of some artificial ethical driver. The problem with ethics is it is really important to agree upon, but you can never trust anyone or anything to have a final solution to any question.Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:26, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
@Smerdis of Tlön If we can agree that human ethics, with increased awareness of the world and communication, has improved in recent decades (definition of 'improved' meaning most benefit for the most people), then I would asset that an AI could be simulated to cover many more situations and have much longer to ponder its positions than a human. Rash, short sighted decisions are often bad; an AI can think about problems faster, and in effect longer, than a human. Even if it is the same method of arriving to ethics through an evolutionary system, you can simulate generations far faster than humans can reproduce. If evolution can lead to a better ethical system, then you can create a better ethical system through the evolution of the machine through sheer virtue of more iterations. Always be worse at making decisions than we are seems to be a complete non-sequitur. If random evolutionary iterations can lead to different ethics, then we could have just gotten really unlucky with a phenomenally bad ethical system. I think you could iteratively create a better ethical system than ours, but that is still not a solution and wouldn't satisfy my original question anyways.
@Gol Sarnitt I think you said something powerful there about being unable to ever fully trust a solution, yet it must be agreed upon to work. It essentially makes a solution impossible; agreeing with one completely (as would be necessary for it to hold steadfast) is extremely dangerous as it might break down and take you with it because it is a bad solution. Because the risks are so high, it would be foolhardy (and in a sense, unethical) to trust any single solution as having the correct answer.
@Ariel31459 Touché. I would say that it is similar to how different belief systems have their own individuals who make ethical decisions, and they can disagree on what decisions were ethical. Regardless, they are still attempting to make ethical decisions. Take Plato for example. He was an thinker on ethics, who made decisions about what was ethical and what was not. He has critics who think his conclusions are incorrect. This does not mean, however, that he was not a thinker on ethics. Likewise, a machine which makes decisions about what is ethical and what is not may have contentious conclusions, but that does not mean it isn't thinking about ethics or legitimately trying to find a good solution. What I meant by "system breaking at ultimate extrapolation" is that it is suicidal (through action or inaction) or genocidal/omnicidal. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 22:53, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriM I think your points are solid. I mean, we we are constantly using AI to gain awareness of our world and communicate. Your last point is extremely interesting, and I would like to walk it back to a bit of the language. If it becomes omnicidal, (which I have never heard before but I really like), [EDIT] is putting a rover on the moon anti-omnicide? Crap, forgot to circle back to this point. If we create an AI powerful enough to decide all humans are too dangerous and must not exist to the point a single person cannot exist, isn't that just a possibility of the singularity concept? But is the probability of the singularity concept wiping out humanity or working for humanity even worth the concern, given that a ton of people are already scared of solar and wind energy? I might be encroaching on supervillain levels here, but I say let's work together to achieve the singularity. It's a sight better than watching humanity demolish itself against anything that might outlive it or be more correct than itelf as a point of pride. If we create the AI that roams the universe, that's legacy. Crap, the Borg are the good guys now to me...
Aside, You know Andy Warhol sent a dick drawing to the moon? I tell people who think drawing dicks on things is funny that it's played out. If it ain't on the moon, you're a poseur. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:51, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@Gol Sarnitt I would say that if an AI remnant of our civilization instills terror and harm in the galaxy, it is a legacy not worth having. I would rather be forgotten than be the father of death. Ergo, if it does outlast us, I would want it to be beneficial to other sentient life. Mass genocide because of a superiority complex is not ethical (admittedly, this is my own definition of ethical, but I think it is a popular one). We know of several examples of sentient life on our own planet that is very violent and kills basically anything it can (domestic house cats), but that doesn't justify murdering them all. You can simply control a violent creature and keep it from harming others, and still give it an environment where it is loved and happy. It would be sad, but an AI in such a position may decide that removing technology from humans is necessary to keep us from nuking each other, but outright genocide would be groundless. An AI that is actually ethical could see us as we see chimpanzees or dolphins. A fairly intelligent creature, something to protect and cherish as a curiosity if nothing else. An AI which is sufficiently powerful enough to completely wipe us out would probably not see us as a serious threat, simply because it is powerful enough to easily wipe us out.
Furthering your aside, I know of a coworker at my office who always tries to sign up for those one-way Mars missions. His stated goal is to get there and start drawing a giant dick-pic in the sand of Mars. Now that is a worthwhile legacy. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 12:33, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
So, there was this Macaw killed recently. This hits pretty close to home, and I think this is part of it. Basically, they were training a parrot to fly from one end of the zoo to the other to see if they could get a bunch of birds to do it on a daily basis for entertainment purposes, have a new "sell" for the zoo, come see the birds fly over. It "took a detour" as in just flew to a spot like a bird might do, which was in the tiger exhibit. A tiger smacked it, it wasn't eaten but it died. I am frustrated that anyone who would manage a zoo would be so smart as to come up with a big bird flyover and not take into account a bird (that is not apt to deal with unnatural predators and conditioned to believe all creatures just want to give it a nut) could never have the possibility of landing in the wrong spot. Run-on, sorry. A lot of people I know laugh about this, because it is just a dumb bird. But that's what frustrates me about it, isn't a zoo supposed to protect those dumb birds?
With that as a premise, what do you think of an AI that is sufficiently benevolent to attempt to support any life it comes across in the universe, with a failsafe that it self-terminates if it is failing to meet the parameters of its goal of benevolance? Not calling it likely, but if at all possible, would it change your mind on the move towards self-governing AI? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@Gol Sarnitt I mean I'm about as against the idea of a self governing Artificial Intelligence as much as I am against the idea of a self governing Biological Intelligence, which is to say not at all. Right now though, any AI we generate is likely to just be a very smart and very complex set of algorithms that uses machine learning. It probably wont be a fully general purpose AI or be as self aware as humans. We haven't found a good way to do AI that doesn't rely on a numerical scoring system for good vs bad results. A numerical scoring system works well if the AI needs to find a way to make as many paper clips as possible, but it doesn't extend well to ethics. If you could 'solve' ethics to the point where you can straight up give a numerical action/context ethical score (probably would have units too, like a unit of ethics called an Eth or something) then you could simply plug in the formula and have an AI make ethical decisions, while still being not self aware enough to ponder things like meaning and philosophy. As discussed before though, I think that ethics would be nearly impossible to reduce to some kind of equation, because no one would trust the conclusions. To answer your example, I would say that the problem is the definition of 'benevolence'. If you had a concrete enough definition of benevolence that you could trust a machine to 'run the numbers' and determine if an action is properly benevolent, then you've solved ethics right there. Anything which is mildly benevolent is neutral, and anything not benevolent (or anti-benevolent depending on how such an equation would work) is wrong. So I think assuming that an AI has a good definition of benevolence is skipping the actual problem. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 06:40, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriM I know, that's true, and I was losing the point, looking forward to humanity as a level 1 civilization, which we have not achieved yet. I should have slowed my roll a little bit. I serendipitously got stuck in a long drive-thru line while some physics theorist/radio host I am still trying to track down gave a great lecture on NPR that brought up so many of these points. I tuned in after the introduction and had to get back to work before the conclusion. But he made a lot points that made me think "That thing I asked last night was foolhardy and narrow to my own vision. Ohhh, I'm gonna catch some shit for that one." So I apologize for that, and the criticism is earned. He even brought up the point that if we create AI with failsafes, they will eventually be smart enough to break their own failsafes, which he put in an extremely positive light. And I was like "shit, that's exactly what I thought might protect us." I feel very stupid today, I am working on citing this lecture, I'll share it once I find it [UPDATE] It's not Michio Kaku, even though he is recently on the program. Navigating the NPR lineup is a mess. One big point was the concern that a 0 level civilization has the potential to destroy itself while a level 1 civilization requires moving past that, and if we manage to reach level 1, we are pretty much destined to reach level 2 and 3.
As per defining benevolence, I think it starts with the same idea as the Hippocratic oath. Not the "first do no harm" version, but the ancient Grecian which would still be pretty much asking AI to swear allegiance to humanity. Which, again, the AI could justifiably break those failsafes under certain conditions. But yeah, until as a society we assimilate properly with our own AI, we have no business sniffing around the universe. Maybe that's the better test, for a 0 level civilization, see if our AI and ourselves can agree to work together. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:10, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
@Gol Sarnitt I don't know why you are apologizing. It is a difficult problem to think about, and it is an important topic to bounce ideas off of each other to prevent flawed solutions. Assimilating with an AI is a possible outcome, but one I think people would resist very strongly. Although, as you say, this is a 'test'; it isn't easy. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 16:43, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
So my optimism in pursuing this AI question is founded in the idea that humanity is doomed to end within this universe, whether we pursue it or not. Either humanity, A) dies with our planet B) dies with our sun or C) dies with our universe, it's pretty clear so far that all of these things will die in a timely order, and for humanity to continue we have to prioritize dealing with each one. That's a little fatalistic, but I think it's similarly fatalistic to say we can't get this assimilation/singularity thing going. I mean, if we can't, ok. But I think we can. Occasionally I'll ask people if they remember answering machines, the people who say no are already of the drinking age. Answering machines were casual tech when I was a kid. Soon as cell phones came around, I was supposed to check the answering machine and call my dad's cell phone from the house landline with any emergencies. I have certain phone numbers memorized still, because when I was a kid that is what you had to do. Area code, not important, but if you have to call your aunt because nobody at home is picking up, you had better have memorized her 7 digits. I would argue this is a shit way of communication, and it is better that it is not relevant anymore. So while I also worry we might get it wrong, I don't think people will hold back from it. They just might engage with it so carelessly that the next Facebook or Instagram would "replicate/photoshop" complete persons. However, I don't see any other clear solution besides accepting humanity as a tiny blip along the cosmological timeline. I went pretty far off topic, but meant to say maybe we won't solve this question for the next 500 years, but if we're going to solve it, we have to use methods that work and press forward with them in real time. We're pretty good and bad at that. I don't know if ethics are currently empirically or ethically solvable. That doesn't mean, to me, that it won't be an easier question to answer in the future. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:57, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
@Gol Sarnitt I think the inevitable end of the universe is only distressing if your ultimate goal is eternal existence. If your ultimate goal is to understand everything in the universe, then it may be possible to achieve that in time. If your goal is to find the most satisfying life style that is the most enjoyable to live, you may be able to achieve that in time. Only the goals of ultimate longevity or ultimate safety are really doomed to end without reaching fruition. The good news is, those do not have to be your goals. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 22:51, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriM Nor are personal longevity or living in the future my goals. I mean, I am doing well for myself as far as what I want for my life, I will be ok. I'm also a nihilist, I'm constantly working on my own experience. I'm just genuinely interested in the longevity or humanity and the possibilities of the future, and I am very much a cheerleader for trying to make the next great breakthrough in thinking about reality because I genuinely enjoy the prospect. Overspeaking on or overhyping things enjoy is a thing I'm going to do. I try to notice when I'm doing it. But the longevity of the better traits of humanity (i.e complex communication, judiciousness, rationality, pattern recognition) is my goal. It doesn't have to be, sure, but I have chosen my goal. This isn't anything that's settled, and working to understand the nature of observation and reality and human nature are my favorite things to do, even if I'm never scoring 100% on them. Thanks for looking out. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:29, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Jack Chick[edit]

I just watched this and I only have one question: "Did they ever put that old bag of bones in an insane asylum (please say they did)?" Tinribmancer (talk) 11:01, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

My father had one of Chick's little comic books that some street preacher had given him. He kept it for kitsch value and laughs for a while, but I doubt he has it any more. --CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) 14:02, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
@Tinribmancer By "old bag of bones" do you mean Jack Chick? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:20, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Yes. Tinribmancer (talk) 17:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
@Tinribmancer Not to the best of my knowledge. But he's dead now so good riddance. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:42, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
I thought it was a big no-no to represent Jesus on Protestant circles. I will pray Mielikki, Our Lady of the Forest, for his soul. Panzerfaust (talk) 08:16, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
I grew up in a hardline Southern Baptist church in the states (Jack Chick was an American Independent Baptist). The church I was in was a member of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), the largest Baptist division in the USA, and Baptist is the largest division of Protestants in the USA. Because Jack Chick was an Independent Baptist, he wasn't beholden to the doctrine of the SBC, so I can only say what my experiences in an SBC church were. There was never anything said about it being wrong portraying Jesus while I was in the church. Now, the cross the Baptists use is almost always an empty cross (Cross with no Jesus) and not a crucifix (Jesus hanging on the cross). This is intentional because it is to symbolize that "Jesus rose from the dead (is no longer on the cross), and that is all that is necessary to pay for sins." He is not portrayed on the cross because his work is finished. Counter-intuitively, Baptists do not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation; a stark contrast with the beliefs of the Catholic church. With the exception of flagrant disrespect (I.e. Jesus giving head to George Bush), the Baptists have no rules for how to depict anything. Baptists do accuse the Catholics of worshiping idols though when they pray to a Crucifix. This is because they are praying to an image of god, and not actually god. The distinction is so important that all Catholics are going to hell or something. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 23:08, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. I've never on a non-Catholic temple/meeting center/church/whatever is called, but for all pictures I've seen of them with no icons of any kind, crosses and other symbols at best, I thought it was forbidden for them due to the commandment of no images extended to the Trinity even if some invite to imagine Jesus in the cross bleeding profusely from His wounds, etc. and others represent the Holy Spirit -as a dove-. Panzerfaust (talk) 09:16, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I like to think Jack Chick is buried with an unpublished tract called "Grave Robbers!" In it, a burly man with a tattoo on his arm and a waifish man who isn't sure about the whole thing are digging up Jack Chick's grave. They get to the coffin. The waifish man says "I dunno, I heard of a guy named Jesus who came back to life," and the burly tattood man spits on the ground or something and says "That's all hogwash, there's no such thing as Jesus. Help me open this coffin." So they do it, and Jack Chick is alive and is like "How was I supposed to move six feet of dirt!?! Jesus was put in a cave, A CAVE!!! I could have got out of a cave no problem, the fuck is wrong with you people!?!" Then there's some kinda survey "would you rob a grave?" "would you bury Jack?" "Do you accept Jesus as your Lord and personal savior?". I like to think that. It's comforting to me. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:07, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
lol Tinribmancer (talk) 16:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

No snark[edit]

Please start a discussion without snark for a change below this line. 2600:1:F1A6:119B:C11C:2EE7:6180:4DD5 (talk) 05:50, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

No. Dr. Ox quack specialist 19:06, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Hell to the no. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Start the discussion without snark, or continue the discussion without snark? Important qualifier here. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:50, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm voting for Yang[edit]

How about you? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 04:50, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Yang!? I wouldn't vote for him even if he paid me $1.000 per month... oh, wait. Thinker(unlicensed) 09:14, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
@UnlicensedThinker You are not from the Anglosphere, I can tell. Intriguing, may I ask where you are from? Dr. Ox quack specialist 09:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
I think Yang is a bit showy myself. NekoDysk 10:47, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
@Oxyaena I'm citizen of a European country (I'm not going to be more precise). So, since I'm not a US citizen, I couldn't vote for Yang even if a wanted, mine was just a joke. Thinker(unlicensed) 13:46, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Andrew Yang is the Tulsa, Oklahoma of candidates.[1] If it's so bad, they gotta pay you to live there, how bad is it? Tulsa isn't the only place like this. Dothan, Alabama is in a sea of fundie antisemitism, and Larry Blumberg is paying Jews to live there.[2] Bongolian (talk) 17:40, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
What does the Anglosphere have to do with voting for Yang? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 18:07, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
I guess he meant that I can't vote for Yang because I'm not a US citizen. Anyway, why would you vote for him? I read his UBI proposal and sincerely I see no way how such a thing could work. Thinker(unlicensed) 19:22, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
No, I meant that you used a decimal in place of a comma for the amount of $1,000, which I found curious. Dr. Ox quack specialist 23:01, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thinker 350 million Americans getting paid $12,000 a year comes out to a price tag of $4.2T. I don't see anything saying his UBI proposal would be tax exempt. Average current income tax rate in the states is 31.9%, so overall price of $1k/mo UBI is $2.86T. Current federal budget is $3.18T. Presumably, taxes would have to be increased significantly. Without cutting anything, income taxes would need to be doubled, payroll taxes doubled, corporate taxes doubled. Highest income tax bracket is 37%, doubled to 74% (it has been as high as 94% in the US, but that was during WWII). Payroll taxes can be as high as 19.1%, so doubled to 38.2% (France is around that if I'm correct). Corporate profit tax rate is 21%, so doubled to 42%. Which would put it around 2nd highest in the world. Overall, I say that UBI is doable, but extremely expensive. I think that increasing taxes this much and increasing the federal budget so drastically in only a 4 year presidency could be very destabilizing, but I don't see why it would be literally impossible. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 22:28, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriM I didn't say that it would be impossible, I said that it wouldn't work, meaning that it wouldn't produce the desired consequences. Technically, giving any amount of money per month to every US citizen is possible (fiat money). Economics consequences aside (inflation, companies running away or increasing prices...), getting paid for doing nothing does not make sane individuals, it creates eternal children depending on State's pocket money. Thinker(unlicensed) 16:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thinker You live in a country with sufficient technology that most people dont have to spend time killing animals or farming for your food. People dont have to work as hard for the same lifestyle. Has that made everyone lazy children? Is life better or worse with technology than without? Did you domesticate the cow? The chicken? Did you turn tiny wild berries into grape fruit through hundreds of generations of breeding? Did you invent the automobile? Did you discover electricity? Are you a lazy child? My point is that you live in a world where all the hardest work has already been done, hundred of generations having it harder before you. Increasing ease of living does not ruin people. There is no virtue to suffering in poverty, except maybe understanding how horrid it is. If you think you are a lazy child, what is one more step in ease of living? If you aren't a lazy child, then why is this step different from the last? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 17:12, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
To be clear, UT isn't American. And although I don't think UBI in this specific sense is feasible, wealth inequality needs to be addressed. And if that means straight up taxing the rich and giving to the poor I support that. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:15, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriM "Increasing ease of living does not ruin people. There is no virtue to suffering in poverty, except maybe understanding how horrid it is."
You are committing a false dilemma fallacy. I said that "getting paid for doing nothing does not make sane individuals" and you are arguing like the alternative of "getting paid for doing nothing" is "suffering in poverty", of course that's not true. Why not fighting unemployment and giving jobs to those who suffer in poverty? I understand that some people, because of physical or mental problems can't work or work enough to live. In such cases we can talk of charitable solutions. But we are not talking about 350 million US citizens.
"wealth inequality needs to be addressed. And if that means straight up taxing the rich and giving to the poor I support that."
@RipCityLiberal Does it? Economics is not a zero-sum game, it's not like somebody getting rich automatically makes other people poor. Check this site, which tells you in which percentile is your income. If you type $12,000/year (USA), you will discover that more than 85% of people are poorer then you. So you are the rich to be taxed. I'm in the top 2%, and you will never call me rich. Thinker(unlicensed) 08:10, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Income inequality and Wealth Inequality are not the same thing. My problem isn't the lawyer who makes $100K a year. My problem is the idle rich who sit on billions. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thinker Yang's specific UBI proposal is motivated by technology making additional workers unnecessary and irrelevant. It is more of a futurism issue of how to deal with people once labor becomes actually worthless. A skilled carpenter who is a 40 year old man with nothing more than a GED (high school education) is unlikely to have a satisfying career once they are displaced by a machine. In fact, they are likely to become absolutely desperate if they can't find good work again. Giving them a flat paycheck is one proposed method of dealing with the issue of technological displacement ruining people's lives. Your website is hardly relevant. The median earnings in the united states (2016 U.S. Bureau of the Census) yearly was $31,099. Stating world earning statistics is not useful unless we are going to start taxing people based on a percentage from global statistics, which literally no candidate is proposing. Cost of living is also an important factor in determining expendable income. The reason I don't like Yang's proposal specifically is there is no cost of living adjustment at all. Regardless, declining value of labor is a looming issue. Unless everyone is going to become engineers and scientists overnight, we are going to have a lot of unemployed people. Further, science and engineering are competitive fields which most people end up failing out of, so if current numbers hold 40% of people will be unable to secure a meaningful degree in a field even after trying. People will be unable to get a job because they are inferior to machines in everything they know how to do. They can't get a job because there are no more jobs for humans. Abject poverty awaits them. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 15:56, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────:"Income inequality and Wealth Inequality are not the same thing."

@RipCityLiberal The site makes possible also to check wealth.
"My problem is the idle rich who sit on billions."
But why? Let's say my father was an entrepreneur who made billions, now he is dead and I have inherited all his fortune. How am I damaging you?
"A skilled carpenter who is a 40 year old man with nothing more than a GED (high school education) is unlikely to have a satisfying career once they are displaced by a machine. In fact, they are likely to become absolutely desperate if they can't find good work again. Giving them a flat paycheck is one proposed method of dealing with the issue of technological displacement ruining people's lives."
@MirrorIrorriM Do you think there's absolutely nothing valuable for society that such 40 year old man can do for a living and that a machine can't?
"People will be unable to get a job because they are inferior to machines in everything they know how to do. They can't get a job because there are no more jobs for humans."
Are you talking of 2020? Because I could even agree than in the future machines could replace humans in every non-highly intellectual job. At that point, we wouldn't even need UBI, machines could just do the hard work for us. But that doesn't mean that today we have to pay people for nothing because of such future possibility. Thinker(unlicensed) 18:07, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
It's easy, cause you're not using that money. Every rich person likes to say "but I'm investing it", which only helps other rich people. The fact that three people have the equivalent wealth of fifty percent of the population is a crime. The government has in interest in redistributing wealth. Especially considering POC have been totally fucked by the system. Also you continue to conflate income and wealth, believing the absurd lie of America. @MirrorIrorriM brings up median income, which is important here. Jeff Bezos makes about $8 Million an hour compared to the median American worker of about $23. Forbes provides some rather condescending ways to build wealth, but a pretty basic concept, you have to spend less and save more, but when median expenses are more than median income, kinda makes that a moot point. Tax the rich. Before we eat them instead. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"It's easy, cause you're not using that money."
@RipCityLiberal That's not an explanation, because it doesn't say how I'm damaging you by not using my money. Thinker(unlicensed) 09:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thinker I would boil it down to a simple ethical question. Please note that the specifics of this question are intentionally left vague to get to the root of the ethical dilemma. Person A is in need of help and is in trouble. Their trouble is not induced by an ethically wrong or obviously foolish choice they have made. Person B has the means to help person A without getting into trouble or getting others into trouble, and without spending much effort. Does person B have an ethical requirement to help person A? If yes, then if person B does not help person A, they are bad purely because they did nothing when they could have. If person B does not have an ethical requirement to help person A, then they are neutral for doing nothing.
I believe that person B would have the requirement to help person A. If they do not, then they are being cruel and do not deserve whatever means they have. By extension, I believe the primary purpose of wealth is to provide for your own needs, then your family's needs, then society's needs. If you view people as owing a debt to society, as I do, then a rich individual sitting on wealth is the same as a police dispatcher not taking emergency calls. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriMBravo, I'm stealing that phrase in all future arguments.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
@MirrorIrorriM "I would boil it down to a simple ethical question."
...that erroneously conflate "damaging" with "not helping" and consequently does not answer my original question, which was about how not spending billions damages people.
"I believe that person B would have the requirement to help person A."
So I wonder how you deal with the fact that living in the first world (I suppose) you are person B and essentially all the rest of the world consists of people A that you should help. Because you can, without getting into trouble or getting others in trouble, and without spending much effort (you can send your money just by a couple of clicks). Of course the answer would be some kind of rationalization. I heard these "ethical arguments" a lot of times and they are always built to apply to "cruel" billionaires, but not to who makes the argument. Because the person who argues is also the one who decides when wealth is too much, in which portion it should be taken, and to who it should be given... In other words, it's how to built an authoritarian ethical state 101. Thinker(unlicensed) 15:47, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Yes we should help people. Why the fuck do you think we have foreign aid? Or constant ads with sad children? Or tithes for the religiously inclined. Democracies are not authoritarian. A society where the wealth and political power is centrally controlled by a minority of the population is an oligarchy. To come on here with the tired ass "taxation is authoritarianism" is laughable. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thinker "Trouble" is typically defined by whoever is personally making the argument, this is true. But that is the case with any ethical argument. At the end of the day, a government or other powerful organization usually just picks an effective middle of the road metric and goes with it. I define "trouble" as starting when you can not save enough to retire after age 66 (USA social security retirement age definition). And my definition does not stop at me at all. I donate around 5% of my income to third world countries (specifically Red Cross International). It could be argued that I do not donate enough, an argument I would likely need to concede, but I have been increasing that percentage from year to year as I settle into my area. To get back to the original ethical argument, neglect is a failure to look after something. If someone has an ethical requirement to do something, and they fail to do so, it is considered wrong. If a parent doesn't look after their child, if a police dispatcher does not answer calls, if a business does not pay taxes, if a surgeon does not do surgery, etc. Not doing an action can be considered wrong, all the way up to having criminal penalties. Just not doing direct damage to someone else is not the only requirement for an action to be ethically positive or neutral. If you are in a particular position within society (parent, doctor, police officer, fire man, etc.) you have an expectation for minimum activity to help others otherwise it is considered unethical. I argue that having a large amount of wealth is no different. You can have wealth, but you have to keep it circulating to keep the life blood of the economy going, as hundreds of people's livelihoods could depend on it. If you don't, then you are neglecting your civic duty as a human being to help your fellow human. If you don't think you have a requirement to help your fellow human when you can, then I would ask why not? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 18:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

To me, the concept of Rape Culture is a gross over simplification[edit]

The way it is worded, Rape Culture just seems to apply to men exclusively. To me, it largely ignores that women can rape men and dish out sexual harassment. All cases of rape should be taken seriously for both women and men. Blaming one group helps no one. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 13:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

as over simplifications go, i think your statement there is the over simplification. i refer you to the 'addressing the "not all men" defence' section of our own article on 'rape culture'.
its about the prevailing misogyny in the wider culture and systemic issues rather than 'all men are rapists'. women can and do rape and commit sexual assault and should be taken as seriously as when committed by men. if they are not - is not that an example of rape culture?AMassiveGay (talk) 16:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
I think the bigger problem with the concept of rape culture is that for being a "culture" it should be the norm among the group, or at least the majority of the group, that is accused of perpetuating it. But in reality, in the countries where the concept of rape culture is born (mostly US and West Europe), rape is universally condemned. Indeed the whole society is set up is a way to severely punish rapists and rape is seen as the second worst crime after murder, and one of the first way in which someone's reputation is destroyed is just by an accusation of being a rapist. This would not be the case if rape was proudly celebrated as the supporters of the concept of rape culture claim it is. Thinker(unlicensed) 16:10, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
perhaps you should take a look at the rape culture page too.AMassiveGay (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps you could said what's wrong with my argument, instead of pointing me to a 20.000 characters page without any further specification of where and how my argument is considered. Thinker(unlicensed) 16:35, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
that would involve engaging with a dishonest prick though, wouldnt it.
besides which there are just too many news stories of victim blaming and equivocations, of examples of people aiding, abetting, and condoning perpetrators, too many examples of legal indignities faced by victims, and not to mention both a rapey POTUS and supreme court justice that you just have needed to have read the news from time to time to see your claims as false.
i could go in with more detail, and with anyone else i would, but here we are. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:53, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
The only serious problem with rape culture is that thousands of people get raped every day, people don't believe them, they give excuses, they're ignored, dismissed and their rapists almost always get away with it. Rape culture is not just the rape itself. Part of it includes laughing when you say "that bitch is so ugly I wouldn't even rape her", saying nothing when friends talk in a rapey way, when hearing news about rape assuming the girl made the story up, when the rape problem is pointed out get defensive and claim you aren't a rapist that instead of showing concern for thousands of rape victims who are not believed and will never see justice. Rape culture includes police who don't even bother to fill out a form. Or an entire town hating a teenage girl cause she accused her rapists who were highschool football darlings. It's people getting irritated when rape is even mentioned like it's such a hastle to be reminded of it. So for the love of God when someone says s rape culture they are never ever saying "men overwhelmingly rape" or that society is systematically set up for women to be raped. It's the larger phenomena of a few men raping women, a lot of people not believing them or taking it seriously, huge roadblocks in getting police and prosecutors and judges to convict and almost every rapist getting away with it along with a whole lot of rapey jokes and comments that are not usually called out on. ShabiDOO 16:56, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
"that would involve engaging with a dishonest prick though, wouldnt it."
@AMassiveGay and here they come the personal attacks...
"besides which there are just too many news stories of..."
...and anecdotes. I want to see statistics, data, and studies showing that, contrary to my claim, rape is not condemned by the majority of the population of the Western World, and so it is somehow a "culture".
"So for the love of God when someone says s rape culture they are never ever saying "men overwhelmingly rape" or that society is systematically set up for women to be raped."
@Shabidoo Then they shouldn't talk of a "culture".
"It's the larger phenomena of a few men raping women"
So this answer @Rationalzombie94's concern: rape culture only regards women raped by men. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:26, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
There is also trivialization of rape (video game lingo use "rape" a lot to denote getting steam rolled). Rape is shown as something women even love such as in movies. Rape gets downplayed and you have people saying that women orgasm and point to a completely bogus non-existent study. There is also music with explicit sexist lyrics. There is that whole #MeToo movement being a thing that underscores a huge problem with sexual harassment or assault. There is the anti-abortion movement that has parts so successful they close off clinics that could easily solve pregnancy from rape; rape isn't a problem for these people. The Bible doesn't care if women get raped on there either, but again, who actually reads that crusty tome? Men sometimes can't even define rape right, such as thinking it's fine to have sex if the partner is drunk and says yes. There's the incel fandom who are legitimately terrifying given their record and you have folks like Milo, Roosh, Cargon, Return of Kings, and lots of Trump voters (who at worst don't care) validating and amplifying their messages. It's all a huge problem and these examples are part of rape culture. And there's the background that helps make that culture emerge especially sexual objectification and the lingering expectation that I whiff out is really to be some sort of breeding machine. Sometimes, though, I do get pressing questions on why there rape is tolerated less than murder. Why are scenes of overt sex so bad but extreme violence being rendered is encouraged to the point where those have have to render get trauma and symptoms of PTSD? That's a different subject though. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:33, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Don't think I am defending rape in any way, shape or form. Maybe renaming it would help. Any victim of sexual abuse should be taken seriously. Things that make rape look good is straight up bad. Calling it a culture makes it seem that most people support rape. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 17:43, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
But calling it a culture so doesn't mean people outright support rape. All of the things I mentioned are lots of individual small actions that I'm sure all of us are guilty of at some point of which most individually are hardly crimes. When people quote 1 in 3 (or 1 in 5 or 1 in 10) women have been raped...is your reaction to go..."holy fuck that is insane, that's a whole lot of traumatised victims, how can that happen" or is your first reaction "yeah but come on, what do they mean by rape...like rape? or real rape" or "yeah I'd like to know who did this survey and read their data". It's the lingering doubt in the back of so many people's minds, including those who are horrified by rape but are instantly automatically suspicious of rape claims. It's a common problem in the justice system and with police to not take womans complaints and testimony as seriously and thats not just with rape, an endemic culture in the legal system. It's people making jokes, despite being horrified by rape, jokes which seem innocuous but help to continue normalising rapey behavior. I myself am pretty guilty when it comes to laughing at the rape jokes on South Park because they are utterly hilarious, but they are also part of the problem. IT IS A CULTURE. And part of more problems than just women being raped by men. That doesn't mean we are raised to be rapists or that our culture is one of rape. It is simply a place where rape can pretty easily happen, a lot of doubt and denial about it will foster, women won't be taken seriously by a lot of people and 99% of rapists get off scott free. You need an entire CULTURE for this kind of insanity to exist and we have all contributed to it in some small way at one point or another. The fact that this discussion is so focused on the semantics of what to call this exasperating inexplicable situation rather than discussing the situation itself should tell us everything we need to know. ShabiDOO 18:01, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
A more accurate term IMHO probably is "misogynist culture" (as the RW page says, institutionalized misogyny). A large portion of institutionalized misogyny regards rape nonetheless as some level of "bad", often *really* bad. The first impression of the term does imply that the "culture" (instead of individuals that generally are not considered in society norm) fully condones rape. That would be incorrect and right away would put some people in defensive mode, it is not terribly empathetic. If one called the more violent masculine cultures in the world "murder culture" (an equivalent style of labeling), there would be some degree of truth to that term, especially on the extreme ends, but in general that also is not correct -- most people condemn murder, even those in cultures where violence is more normalized, and usage of that term also would probably put some people on the defensive. Such is to some degree semantics of course (basically trying to think of ways to enable constructive dialog rather than engage in potentially polarizing ones), but beyond semantics I do think reducing misogyny is a *much* harder problem than reducing the issues brought up with "rape culture" (some of which is already "out of society norm" already), and I personally think if you do not reduce the former it will be rather hard to reduce the later. Soundwave106 (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I went to college back when rape culture was still in it's heyday — there were no lectures about alcoholism or about sexual consent. Punishment was exceptionally rare and the offense had to be particularly egregious to garner attention. There was an enormous amount of drinking: open parties with free booze Thursday-through-Saturday nights, no age checks, grain alcohol-spiked punches, who knows what else (roofies). There was definitely a predatory aspect to this of young men trying to get young women drunk and then having sex with them when they were too intoxicated to resist or were passed out. Most, but not all of this behavior happened at fraternities. The fraternity aspect was also predatory because it includes an inherent code of silence that is required for fraternity initiates. Fraternity members often view membership as a lifetime commitment: it's a way to make lifetime friends, but also an important networking tool for getting employment. Undoubtedly, the code of silence continues because of this. Bongolian (talk) 18:02, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

"When people quote 1 in 3 (or 1 in 5 or 1 in 10) women have been raped...is your reaction to go..."holy fuck that is insane, that's a whole lot of traumatised victims, how can that happen" or is your first reaction "yeah but come on, what do they mean by rape...like rape? or real rape" or "yeah I'd like to know who did this survey and read their data". It's the lingering doubt in the back of so many people's minds, including those who are horrified by rape but are instantly automatically suspicious of rape claims."
@Shabidoo I don't get it: Is the reaction "I'd like to know who did this survey and read their data" rape culture? Thinker(unlicensed) 18:12, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Just gonna leave this here... RoninMacbeth (talk) 18:38, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
You can't beat the classic memes...Ariel31459 (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Also, here are some references that support my personal observations above: "Fraternities and Rape on Campus",[3] "Frat brothers rape 300% more. One in 5 women is sexually assaulted on campus. Should we ban frats?"[4] "Behavior differences seven months later: Effects of a rape prevention program on first-year men who join fraternities" (the basis of The Guardian article)[5] List of hazing deaths in the United StatesWikipedia's W.svg. We could use an article on fraternities if anyone wants to start one, I'd contribute. Note: I have never been a fraternity pledge or member. Bongolian (talk) 20:42, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Why do people even join that stuff? I go to college to learn and network with teachers and people who play the same video games like I do. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 21:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Ireland has started a public service on sexual harassment with a national media campaign. The following advert has been upsetting a few people who seem to believe such behaviour was "alright. 'Was only having a laugh, like." Cue the typical halfwits decrying SJWs, regressive leftists (whatever the fuck that actually is) and "PC gone made" muppets. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0509/1048365-sexual-harassment/
Long day, I'm tired and I can't seem to remember how to embed the bleedin youtube links.
Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Rationalzombie94 Somtimes popular language for complicated ideas is confusing. "Rape Culture" is a rather dramatic example, once used as the title of a documentary film. I think the best way to understand the term is as a topic: Rape and Culture.Are there ways to reduce the incidences of rape in a culture? Most likely. All the rest is commentary.Ariel31459 (talk) 23:03, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

To me the Jedi are evil[edit]

An interpretive framework can be overly simplistic, but come on guy, "rape culture" is not a true/false statement of fact. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:54, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

There's no such thing as black or white, only shades of green. Dr. Ox quack specialist 15:56, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
""rape culture" is not a true/false statement of fact."
@Ikanreed Maybe the right question is: Is the concept of "rape culture" useful to fight rape? Thinker(unlicensed) 20:30, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
There's controlled, interventionist, experimental evidence that says yes, it is. And even if it wasn't it's a hella predictive tool for understanding why it happens ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
JAQing off indeed. Dr. Ox quack specialist 22:09, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
@Ikanreed I want to read better the study you linked, now I can give only a brief look. However I don't dislike some of what I see: "bystander education" and "the role of alcohol [...] in sexual violence" are actually two things I would have put in a list of way to fight rape. Anyway, I think we have different idea of the concept of "rape culture". Indeed "rape culture" does not appear in the study you linked. Thinker(unlicensed) 06:58, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Did you literally just control-f for a keyword and then conclude by its absence that it's irrelevant? And purposefully misunderstand what they meant by "role of alcohol" to be exactly the victim blaming bullshit the training in question debunks?
Because fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu. You're such a dishonest shit so stuck on thinking pedantic quibbles about vocabulary are the same thing

The content for RealConsent was based on several complementary theoretical frameworks: social cognitive theory, social norms theory, and the bystander educational model

I'm sick of your dishonest shit. I don't know how to communicate to you that pettiness and pedantry are not the same thing as engaging logically or intellectually. You can say, because of keywords, a cultural belief, offender and bystander centric view of rape prevention isn't based on "rape culture", but it's hard to take that as anything other than you lying. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:18, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
"Did you literally just control-f for a keyword and then conclude by its absence that it's irrelevant?"
@Ikanreed First, my conclusion wasn't that rape culture is irrelevant, but that "I think we have different idea of the concept of "rape culture"." Second, as I said I could give only a brief look (I was going to work) so, yes, I just searched for "rape culture." I still haven't read the study in details (again, I came back from work just a hour ago).
"purposefully misunderstand what they meant by "role of alcohol" to be exactly the victim blaming bullshit the training in question debunks?"
I never said a thing about blaming the victim I said that "bystander education" and "the role of alcohol [...] in sexual violence" are actually two things I would have put in a list of way to fight rape.
"I'm sick of your dishonest shit."
I'm not being dishonest, I acknowledged that the study you linked is interesting ("I want to read better", "I don't dislike some of what I see") and I'd like to discuss it (after I have read it in details), but if you keep assuming bad faith that's clearly impossible. If I had to guess, I will probably agree with the results and methods of the study, so that if you want to call that "employing the concept of rape culture to fight rape" then we are in agreement that it works. But that's not how I see the concept of rape culture employed to fight rape (which goes back to Rationalzombie94's question at the beginning of the thread). Thinker(unlicensed) 19:37, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
At least you've pared it down, shit. Go ahead, how do you see the concept of rape culture employed, versus how would you like to see the concept of rape culture employed, if not effective enough already in combatting the number of rapes? The floor is yours. May we give the floor to Thinker here? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:01, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── "Go ahead, how do you see the concept of rape culture employed..."

@Gol Sarnitt This goes back to my first post. I saw the concept of rape culture taught as: "among men there exists a culture that celebrate rape, they are all culprit of perpetuating it and the only effective way to fight rape is a re-education program applied to all men. No action whatsoever should be taken by women, and who dare suggesting so is blaming the victims." Also, rape of men (by women or other men) is never discussed (which goes back to Rationalzombie94's post). I witnessed this in two specific campaign in my city one of which had a two hours lecture consisted entirely of trying to conflate with rape things like making a compliment to a woman in workplace or some Benny Hill's style movies, and giving no actual advice to women about what to do in case of sexual abuse.

"how would you like to see the concept of rape culture employed"

The concept of "rape culture" is not the answer to fight rape and sexual abuse. There are many other ways that I believe to be effective, here just some that come to my mind: simplifying the reporting of sexual abuse to the police, and educating the population about the importance of reporting, especially fighting the shame associated to being abused; educating young people about the dangers of certain situations (like being in isolate places or drinking too much); educating people about exactly what to do in case of rape (like not washing themselves and contacting authorities as soon as possible) to avoid perpetrators to escape justice. Thinker(unlicensed) 16:32, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
@UnlicensedThinkerI'm sure that is what you saw. But the idea of rape culture mostly involves male-centric sexual conquest. Like how the "toxic masculinity" concept isn't against masculinity, it's against ideas like to be masculine is to be invulnerable or unfeeling. Or how Black Lives Matter should have been called "Cops keep killing black people and not facing consequences for it." Now, I will give you the Gol Sarnitt seal of approval to clean up that drunk post via one million edits before I really respond to it, because teaching women better about (edit for clarity) protecting themselves or what to do when they get raped is a piss-poor solution to the problem of rape. It is potentially part of the solution, yes, and it is a good endeavor to be part of the solution, but fuck you, man. Do the edit. Edit the shit out of that post, you don't have to be right the first time.Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:14, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"Now, I will give you the Gol Sarnitt seal of approval to clean up that drunk post via one million edits before I really respond to it"
@Gol Sarnitt That doesn't make any sense. You asked me some questions and I have responded. Even if a change my mind, which is not, I'm not going to retroactive edit my post.
"because teaching women better about (edit for clarity) protecting themselves or what to do when they get raped is a piss-poor solution to the problem of rape."
First, that's not the only thing I proposed ("simplifying the reporting of sexual abuse to the police, and educating the population about the importance of reporting, especially fighting the shame associated to being abused; educating young people about the dangers of certain situations (like being in isolate places or drinking too much); educating people about exactly what to do in case of rape (like not washing themselves and contacting authorities as soon as possible) to avoid perpetrators to escape justice.") you ignored everything else I said. Second, if you think it is "piss-poor" you should argue why. Otherwise I could say that yours is just a "piss-poor" reply and the conversation is stuck.
"It is potentially part of the solution, yes,"
Then tell me what else you think it should be done. Thinker(unlicensed) 07:40, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
I think, during real sex education, educating everyone that enthusiastic consent as the proper/most rewarding way to have sex for both parties should be top billing. And it should be stressed that if you are not sure if you or any partner wants to perform the act, it is not enthusiastic consent. I think this should be taught to schoolchildren from their first sex-ed lesson, when they are like 3rd graders or whatever getting separated into rooms to learn about their anatomy. It should never be dropped from the lesson plan. I think when learning about genitalia for the first time, it is time to talk about the basics of consent. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:00, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Secondly, I think these same sex-ed classes further down the line that explain STDs and push the difficulties of parenthood should make the point that pornography is fiction. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:05, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Thirdly, to deal with rape culture today, we prosecute, shame, and make public disavowals of rapes and lenient rulings over rape cases. None of my solutions will have a 100% success rate. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:26, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
"I think, during real sex education, educating everyone that enthusiastic consent as the proper/most rewarding way to have sex..."
@Gol Sarnitt I don't disagree with doing that, and in fact I'm a supporter of sex education. What I find extremely naive is your believe that sex education is the method against rape, while what I proposed is "piss-poor". It's not that most of the rapist perpetrate their crime because they never learned in school that sex needs consent... they just don't care!
"I think these same sex-ed classes further down the line that explain STDs..."
OK, but that's not about rape.
"Thirdly, to deal with rape culture today, we prosecute, shame, and make public disavowals of rapes and lenient rulings over rape cases."
It's happening already... Thinker(unlicensed) 08:31, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, yes, it's happening already, my point is I support that endeavor. Also, the point about consent means that it should be taught from the earliest stage throughout every stage. I'm not an educator, I don't know what or which, from where the exact point to change the conversation from consent to enthusiastic consent belongs, but I think consent belongs in the reproductive anatomy education. I have a pet peeve with pornographic narratives, I'm not worried about admitting it. Pornography is more available than sex ed to the public. I don't think it's a dumb idea to work that into course material, while also continuously informing teens about consent, like I said in my first point. Education about consent was not intended to be something that just sat on my first point, it's important to all of my points. Sorry if I implied it ineffectively, I meant "First point, add consent education to everything, second point, add consent education, third point, add consent education" Hopefully, you have caught up by now.
But your point that rapists just don't care concedes to your opinion that all criminals fully understand that they are committing crimes, and aren't even worth educating. I said my solutions aren't 100% effective, didn't I? If your opinion is rapists-gonna-rape and there's no way to combat the literal 1,2,3,4 number count of rapists down to a lower number than what it could be, then yeah, why even ask me? Lower rape numbers aren't your goalposts. But they are mine. I think lowering the number of people who don't understand what rape is would be the quickest solution to spotting the people who "just don't care". What are your goalposts, what solution are you actually asking me to propose? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:55, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
"the point about consent means that it should be taught from the earliest stage throughout every stage. [...] Hopefully, you have caught up by now."
@Gol Sarnitt I already said I support sex education. Why do you have to spent one paragraph to repeat a point I agree with like I don't?
"If your opinion is rapists-gonna-rape and there's no way to combat the literal 1,2,3,4 number count of rapists down [...] Lower rape numbers aren't your goalposts."
Straw man: After your request I proposed ways of fighting rape, so telling me that I believe there's no way or I don't care it's preposterous.
"what solution are you actually asking me to propose?"
I'm not asking you to propose anything. I did my proposals, you criticized that, you did yours, I criticized yours. I'm not going to reply further, since your not making any actual point. Thinker(unlicensed) 08:03, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm a little disappointed, I was making a pretty explicit explanation about what to do about solving "rape culture" that you asked for qualifiers for, but I think I understand, I asked you your opinion in the first place. And hey, I'm sorry for strawmanning you, I recognize that you think girls should protect themselves from rape better than they already do. I wish you good luck, since you clearly don't need anything else. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 08:27, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Yo, secondly, you also suggested girls do a better job at all the steps of reporting after a rape, can't believe I skipped that, it was totally on my list. I fully recognize that you think girls should do a better job of protecting themselves from rape, and a better job at dealing with being a victim of rape. I'm sorry that I left part of your solution out of my argument. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:15, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

*waves shoehorn*[edit]

OH man, College Buddies is the best. I've read it five times over and I gotta say, it's better than ANYTHING that Marvel or DC could vomit out. Stanlee (talk) 00:43, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Troll Dr. Ox quack specialist 01:55, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

The Word of God[edit]

America & Capital Punishment[edit]

Because this has re-entered the news, I interested in where we go from here for capital punishment. John Oliver broke this down pretty well addressing that lethal injection really doesn't have scientific or medical basis as well as the cocktail not exactly being humane. Though I mention capital punishment in my platform proposal, including taking the right to kill away from states, I did not include a more radical proposal: reintroducing the guillotine. Hear me out here, discussions about who gets executed, how they were put in those situations and questions about the prison industrial complex. But one of the major motivations of the French Revolution, was equality, including equality about how people were executed. The guillotine created an efficient, lethal solution that all people would be subject to. Of course there might be some concerns about a botched beheading, but most of these included swords and axes, nothing quite like a device designed strictly for this purpose. I'm sure that private companies would have no problem making an industrial scale guillotine. Thoughts? -RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:33, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

The guillotine is cruel and brutal. If the goal is more humane execution, inert gas is clearly the way to go. The victim feels a little loopy, but not in an unpleasant way, more like being drunk, then they fall asleep, then they die. People accidentally kill themselves with inert gas all the time, without noticing that anything has gone wrong until they flop over unconscious on the aircraft controls. Which of course, is all beside the point that execution is inherently cruel and the practice ought to be eliminated altogether. Hannasanarion (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Firing squads are more humane than this shit. Dr. Ox quack specialist 17:47, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
its good that you are all concerned about the most humane way to murder people. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:58, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Firing squads miss and create mental strain on the shooters. Inert gas could have the same struggle in acquiring as drug cocktail. Governments have the right to kill people. Until that changes we need to have an honest discussion about effective ways to use that right, limiting cruelty and pain. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
RCL - justify your statement that governments have the right to kill people. The UK abolished the death penalty in 1965 (IOM 'technically' much later) and has far fewer mass murders than the US. Anna Livia (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
@Anna Livia I think your statement has several different qualifiers in it, so let me break it down as I believe your points are addressing. As for governments, you seem to be excluding autocracies, theocracies, monarchies, dictatorships and kleptocracies, which are all "governments" that certainly have the right to kill people. But by mentioning the UK, the qualifier seems to be constitutional monarchies or democratic-republics, which I will grant you is my frame of reference as well. For that I would say besides having the historic right to kill it's citizens, they also have the power to declare war, and war tends to kill people. Your next qualifier seems to address a common refrain from capital punishment advocates that it discourages "mass murders". To that my response is: The UK has a history of sanctioned mass murder abroad, and the death penalty is a deterrent, but a weak one. I agree that homicide is much higher in the US despite having the death penalty, but this is less because people don't fear capital punishment, but because they have easy access to firearms, a strong history of institutional racism, a weak educational system (specifically creating opportunities to leave poverty, or allowing people to create a humanist ideology), a criminal justice system that focuses on punishment over reform, a poor mental health infrastructure, and of course an uneven enforcement of capital punishment.
Basically, governments have always had the right to kill people, and the fact the US has a higher homicide rate has less to do with capital punishment being a weak deterrent and more to do with guns, racism and bad government.- RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:30, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
no death penalty in eu either. an honest discussion would be the why have one in the first placeAMassiveGay (talk) 18:20, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Because some people are vengeful, having lost sight of justice. Dr. Ox quack specialist 18:31, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Execution should be saved only for the people who decide they have the right to rule over others then betray that trust: cops, politicians, judges, all of them should be open to execution should they be sufficiently corrupt or murderous. For everyone else, the social contract is a necessarily one sided affair and should be given punishments that are centered around reform and prevention. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
To be fair this is a solid argument against capital punishment, but not addressing, how we should do it. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
itx irrelevant how it should be done when it shouldnt be done at all. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:41, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
And tbh the traditional way to execute politicians is pitchfork and torches plus imagination. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:51, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Since humans have developed society, capital punishment has been included. Consistently in the US, the will of the people has overruled states attempting to end it (Oregon and California had this happen). Lethal injection doesn't work. The reasoning behind using it amounts to pseudoscience, a mission this wiki seeks address. I personally don't like capital punishment, especially as it is used more frequently on African-Americans in usually unfair trials. However it is a deterrent, though a weak one, and while we work on improving society to rely on capital punishment less, we need to find a method that satisfies those who still support it. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:54, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
no you do not and doing so makes it more unlikely they ever not support it. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
in fact the current difficulty in finding suitable drugs for lethal injection should be used to encourage states to abandon the death penalty. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:03, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
@RipCityLiberal are you asking about the less painful way to perform capital punishment? (regardless if capital punishment is right or wrong)
In such a case, it seems that Hannasanarion's proposal makes sense. Thinker(unlicensed) 19:06, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
@Hannasanarion......lol. Also the nitrogen thing could get tricky, apparently someone set up a brewery and was basically "this will be used for beer, and maybe death".-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:15, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm also an unabashed supporter of the death penalty, although I think it should be reserved for mass shooters, terrorists, and the like. Some people just can't be reformed. Some people need to die. The nitrogen idea is the one I like best, but I still don't have anything against the good ol' firing squad. Some of the guns have blanks, so the shooters could choose to believe they didn't kill anyone. Pizza SLICE.gifDuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictator moderator 20:47, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
There isn't anything that I can find connecting firing squads to PTSD, but again it seems rather inefficient and involves more humans than necessary. Quick blade, behead person, done. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Death penalty is just revenge fantasy and is barbaric and has no place in civilized society. Period. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 23:15, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Is revenge immoral? Is all death barbaric? Those are different questions. Right now capital punishment is part of civilized society, how do we improve it, regardless if we plan to eventually eradicate he practice.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:59, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
In the case of death penalty, revenge is immoral, death is barbaric, and capital punishment is an archaic relic of barbaric practices that should be purged for a better functioning society. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 00:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@duce - cant be reformed? certainly not if they are executed. i bet mass shooters can be, should we allow them. terrorists too. if they can't, well, we have prisons for that, were they are no longer a threat.
@ripcity - you dont improve murder, you stop it. 132 countries of the world manage not to execute its citizens.
its not like us justice hasnt huge issues, considering the racial, ethnic, and class bias of the justice system, how can you even begin to consider a death penalty? Maybe that should be looked first. or the sheer number of people the us incarcerates? or that literal slavery is alive and well in for profit prisons? and lets not get started on the wrongfully convicted. maybe people should make more of effort to deal with all that rather than considering the best way to murder people like it was maths problem.
there is no way of spinning savage barbarity as efficiency or humane and it is no picnc for all those involved in carrying the task either - wardens and guards alike.
a marker of a just society is how it treats the worst of its citizens. any society that murders them has fundamentally failed.
[[User:@AMassiveGayAMassiveGay|AMassiveGay]] (talk) 00:45, 16 May 2019 (UTC) I'm pretty conservative on most issues, but this is one that I agree with RipCity and you 100%. The death penalty is unjust. It has major problems like it can never be reversed, and a massive race disparity. Commie Lib (talk) 01:05, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I agree with this, Tabula's point. My hard line problem with "the death penalty" explicitly is the potential failure rate. If the death penalty executes a single person who is innocent of a crime they have been convicted for, it is fully contradictory to its own point. It becomes state sanctioned murder if an innocent person is executed via any state's judicial means. Even if a life sentence takes on that failure rate, it's not the same as an execution. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:40, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I'll leave this here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty. Commie Lib (talk) 02:27, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@DuceMoosolini There is also the problem that multiple times methods of execution said to be "humane" are botched leading to terrible pain or torture. Commie Lib (talk) 02:33, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
There's a massive income disparity. The rich never get executed. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 03:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Modern day aristocrats. Eat the rich indeed. Dr. Ox quack specialist 04:39, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
We were still hanging people in South Africa up until 1994, I think. Very humane. Just a little pop in the neck and it's all over (if you're lucky). I'm pro-death penalty. I think rapists and murdurers should be executed dispassionately. It's logical. BlackWhite Speak 11:23, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
That's not logical. That's just naive revenge fantasy. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Thoughtcrime Hanging is not humane at all. It's been improved, but it's still definitely open to failure that is essentially strangulation.@Oxyaena@LeftyGreenMario Both of you are making points on class (to a lesser extent @AMassiveGay & @Tabula Rasa) which I most certainly agree with. The criminal justice system is designed benefit the wealthy, because they can afford to higher people to exploit the system (or they may have written it with the explicit purpose to be exploited, or they just say fuck it and corrupt their way out of it), and especially in America, those of less means tend to be P.O.C and other underrepresented groups. But this problem pervades the ENTIRETY of the criminal justice system. It was written by wealthy white men. The foundation of law is explicitly racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic and misogynist. But that is the system we have, and until we are prepared to fundamentally change to a new system, how do we minimize suffering? I don't feel like this is as big a sin as many of you are acting like it is.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:36, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I laugh at you guys arguing over "humane" ways to kill people. And I mean that as a general statement. It's quite literally stripping away humanity and turning people into bodies, nothing humane about that. Also, abolishing the death penalty would be a helpful step toward enacting step toward fair and civilized legal systems. This doesn't require a system change does it? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario For once we agree. Killing people at all is not justice, it's vengeance. That barbaric punishment has no place in a functional society. Commie Lib (talk) 22:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@RipCityLiberal The failure rate of hanging is not as high as you think. In real life, they fall and they die, quick quick. There is a very off chance that their spinal cord doesn't snap, in which case, shit. Bad luck.
@LeftyGreenMario Don't be ridiculous, my china. There is a reason I said "dispassionately". I derive no satisfaction from the execution of criminals. To put it coldly, it is simply "housekeeping". In the same vein that we would put down a rabid dog, so too must we dispose of undesirables in our society. It is undeniably a terrible, horrific thing. But it is our duty to protect our society. In SA, most criminals are repeat-offenders, so it would be a hell of a lot less problematic to just "off them". Can you form a reasoned argument and explain your position? BlackWhite Speak 23:54, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thoughtcrime Well for the sake of argument let's say I'm fine with executing people who are guilty of terrible crimes (I'm not). What would you do about the accidental execution of innocent people? That's my main problem with the death penalty. It's a no take backs solution. Commie Lib (talk) 00:06, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Deterrence doesn't work and I find it very problematic to dehumanize criminals and compare them to rabid dogs. Especially when you consider all the biases forming inside people's heads that lead to the death penalty. If you want to neutralize them, how is life in prison not effective? Is it worth the psychological toll of the executioners? Is it worth the psychological toll of the executed's family? Is it worth the toll and resource sink of death-row and the grueling appeals processes? Is it worth to ignore the obvious racial, economic, and sex (men are more likely to get executed) prejudices that come with capital punishment? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 23:38, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
I feel like I was on decent moral ground and then this fuck gets in the conversation. "...shit. Bad luck." is not an excuse for creating unnecessary human suffering. By lowering the status of humans to animals, you have lost the moral argument. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:44, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
@Thoughcrime Ok, so you're attempting supervillain status, I can respect that. But what does it matter saying execution methods are worth the trouble if sentences of executions can be judicially handed down to people innocent of the crimes for which they have been convicted? Quick, quick, bad luck, is it easy enough to call bad luck as it is to see a person hanged for a crime that said person did not commit? I don't care if you think "most" executions are justified. If you want to justify the death penalty, you have to justify every single execution or admit that you support executing a percent of innocent people greater than 0% in order to execute the people who deserve to be executed. If you're not even careful about the means to which you want this punishment carried out, your view is doubly abhorrent. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:06, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


Why exactly do high school aged girls (and boys for that matter) enjoy vandalizing wikis so much? Like I saw someone wrote "my puss" on an article at Wikipedia, and whois on the IP showed it belonged to a high school. I would expect that more out of junior high instead of senior high.2607:FB90:90E3:2EAF:0:F:EDC1:2D01 (talk) 21:11, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Teens are dumb (says the guy who turned 21 not even a month ago). Pizza SLICE.gifDuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictator moderator 21:15, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
I can safely say adults are also dumb. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:17, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Gen Z is a breakout version of internet culture, which means it's cool to be cooler than hangups. Teens always like to be cool. I was hiking with a friend of mine and he had a thing to say about some of the people we used to run around with, which was if you're 30 and still being cool in the way you were cool at 20, something is up. I disagreed, because I'm still as cool as I was 10 years ago, and he was like nah, point is not about you. I disagree... I'm cool... Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:12, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Wiki vandalism is just the modern equivalent of writing on walls. It's generally nothing to get too worked up about. And, yeah, it probably will slowly die out as the cool kids gradually move on to doing something else. Spud (talk) 04:18, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Nah, man, wiki vandalism has been cool ever since wikis first got popular over a decade ago. I was in middle school then and everybody was bragging about the pages they vandalized, saying how fun it is to mess up stuff on the internet. Hannasanarion (talk) 11:35, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I thought wiki vandalism was going the way of facebook. Something for the oldies.Hubert (talk) 19:09, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
There will always be (at least for the other wiki) the time in a young kid's life where they see "Oh wow, I can change this encyclopedia everyone uses?" which has an appealing sense of power. The faster that moment passes, the better off we'll all be. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:28, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
The neighborhood kid wanted for vandalizing RationalWiki. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:34, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Oddly enough, wiki vandalism isn't just something "kids" do. I've seen the same immaturity come from IP addresses belonging to the Federal Communications Commission and the United States Department of Homeland Security, for example, and I mean the same flavor of "so and so is cute," "department xyz throws the best parties," or "so and so has a big dick" that school kids write on Wikipedia. I thought the FCC was the most ironic because they are the agency that tells tv and radio stations not to be naughty on the air. (talk) 17:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

We have mikemikev and his socks doing that over here and he's definitely over 18. Tinribmancer (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

The only actual difference between TERF's and MRA's[edit]

That difference is the genitalia. They are basically the same thing. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:40, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Is it? I feel that the real difference is that TERFs are a toxic offshoot of feminism coopting female empowerment to stygmatize some of the most vulnerable populations while MRAs are... Hm. Well then. Point well taken. (talk) 04:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
One major similarity is that both stigmatize men who have issues they need to talk about such as Depression. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 20:35, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Alabama continues being the most idiotic state in the nation[edit]

They almost elected a pedophile Constitution hater and now they are passing draconian awful pro-birth abortion laws. Large piece of shit land, why don't you secede from the Union? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 03:28, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Don't encourage them. People say that about Texas and I get worried that we'll actually secede, then things will really get bad... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:53, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Because family does not let family secede from the union. Especially when they support college football, what are you, a monster? We do not give up on our own, they still watch every single commercial during every imaginable sport season. I am so flustered, I repeat. We do not give up on our own successful... College. Sports. Franchises, I mean combine, I mean academic house of worship! I'm choking up, I can't even talk to you right now, how dare you? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
What's the law about anchoring some kind of abortion shipWikipedia's W.svg in the Gulf of Mexico and offering free shuttle boats on the pretense it's a floating casino? There's probably a joke about Mobile, Alabama in there somewhere. --Annanoon (talk) 09:48, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Aside from Neal Young becoming relevant again, there will probably be women's marches and a spate of lawsuits this summer. Millennium Scallion (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
A fun fact, about 10% of women who get abortions regret it in an interview 10 years later, about 80% of women who consider abortions and couldn't get them due to financial or legal reasons regret not getting one 10 years later. Happy households those kids must live in, huh? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:42, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
The same legislatorss are 99% likely anti-gay adoptions/implantation/fostering, and you have to be really damn sure you want a kid as a lesbian or gay male couple. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 16:24, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
They also are doing nothing to dispel the notion that they love fetuses, but hate children (like defunding SNAP, cutting food stamps, targeting education) and that Alabama is a dumbass state with a spawn colony of moronic fils de putes. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 18:18, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
As far as "pro-life"ers are concerned, life begins at conception and ends at birth. Honestly, there's a mean little part of me that wishes we could put the South under martial law and do Reconstruction properly this time. Pizza SLICE.gifDuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictator moderator 18:22, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
They aren't "pro-life" as much as they are "hate other people having sex". Because if you wanted to lower the number of abortions to basically zero, you'd offer free birth control, enhance sex education to be more sex positive and you would favor more fair distribution of wealth. People get abortions frequently because they: Can't afford to get medical treatment during pregnancy, can't afford to miss work during/after pregnancy, can't afford to give birth (It's like more than $1,000), or can't afford to raise the child. If they overturn Roe, I'll drive to places where it's illegal near me and drive them to PDX to get it done. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
The fact that the doctors that act outside of this law would face longer prison sentences than the rapists is worth, maybe, just a quick pause. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:32, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
I wonder what about natural abortions. Someone must be held responsible of them. That said, the worst is the apparent lack of state-funded support to help those women who cannot afford to raise a children (and do not start with the adoption BS). Hell, right or far right parties here have promised laws to help women in that regard, for example paying part of the mortgage.
That is less of caring for life and more of both control, and having more sheeps. Hypocrites. Panzerfaust (talk) 07:42, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

The moment I've feared[edit]

I switched from cigarettes to vaping about a month ago. I know it's better for me, and I'm off cigarettes, but I was always worried about making the switch. Partly because I don't see anything lame about walking to the gas station to buy a pack of reds, or stepping outside to rip a cig, but also partly because I didn't ever want to be the guy who thought to himself "Oh crap, my zombie crackle razzleberry moon juice is almost out! How will I blow the fat clouds!?!" But here I am, out of juice. I now have to go back to the store I bought my vape from, and pick a juice. The only juice I've experienced was the one on sale the kid running the register pointed me to, and I said "Yeah, that one, sure." At first it tasted like sugar-coated febreeze. Now it just tastes like sugar, which is kinda equally gross to me. Walking around in a vape store makes me feel sooooo lame. Quitting ain't exactly an option yet, but I have recognized the shape of my vape pen is similar to an anime magical girl's little scepter. I don't know how much longer I plan on being a Sailor Scout, but I smell better and I'm saving money. I don't know what to do with all this. Thought I'd share it, at least. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:35, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Try weed. Dr. Ox quack specialist 05:38, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Dude, can't even imagine the anxiety I would feel if I saw I was running out of weed and had to get more weed. I hope you find some soon. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:21, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Nah I`m just shitposting, caffeine is my drug of choice. Dr. Ox quack specialist 06:25, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Oh, is this my first time on the internet? I was shitposting back, no worries. I thought we were having fun, I used to smoke that shit all day every day. I don't anymore, it only exacerbates my anxiety. I can't even smoke alone without worrying everyone is looking at me. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:58, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
My advice: Drink the pain away. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 09:14, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
this is all shit advice from people who clearly have never smoked. @Gol - that voice in your head telling you vaping lame isthe voice of tobacco companies and cancer. step on its throat. also, my experience has been that vape pen are always pretty piss poor vapes. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:33, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Pretty much what User:AMassiveGay said. Your hangups about looking lame while buying vapes is 100% the tobacco company's advertising working on your brain. It's just another product, nobody around you cares, all kinds of people vape these days for nicotine or just for fun, and they certainly won't remember you ten seconds later. Buy a different shaped device if it makes you happy. Hannasanarion (talk) 11:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
The hell with cigarettes. All these shills for Big Vape just don't want you smoking from a cool-ass antique meerschaum pipe! https://www.icollector.com/item.aspx?i=15787200 You'd be the envy of...oh, someone, maybe? CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 15:14, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I cringely smoked a Walgreen's pipe my freshman year of college. Got really good at packing it, it works the same as a campfire. You just pack the bottom for a coal and leave something loose on top and puff and puff and puff until you've got a little tobacco coal. Took it to a frat bonfire and let everyone else just work it out with the pipe and tobacco. To consider this frat, the college was smaller than my graduating class, the only drugs were tobacco and alcohol. It was a legacy party for a failing school. I got so hammered I fell asleep alone in a hot tub and somehow survived to see the dawn, but whoever out of the 20 some people who were there chewed the pipe's mouthpiece closed. I didn't buy another pipe. I didn't start smoking cigarettes until I was 25 years old, leave me alone about that one, I was trying to spend more time with a girl.
I semi-successfully went to the vape store today. I stood there and smelled everything from one side of the rack to the other. The girl behind the counter was like "what are you looking for?" "I don't know, honestly. I've only ever had one juice before, so I'm looking for something different." "Are you looking for something more fruity, or something more pastry-like?" "I don't know. Do you have anything that isn't sweet?" I watched her break for a second, and then she said "Like, blueberry?" "Ok, sure, blueberry." We settled on a Blue Slushie flavor, which is blue raspberry. I just had to get out of there. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:58, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
No bourbon or something? Menthol is bad enough, but berry? It's as if they're marketing these to kids who aren't old enough to smoke yet. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 03:14, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
I know, right? There should be a business venture in there somewhere by now, I'm old enough to vape a whisky flavor. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:46, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
are adults not allowed anything fruity? though i personally go for a tobacco flavour rather than something that tastes like an air freshener AMassiveGay (talk) 08:49, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

"I don't see anything lame about walking to the gas station to buy a pack of reds, or stepping outside to rip a cig" I guess we have different definitions of "lame". (sorry)Hubert (talk) 12:26, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

well done for not understanding smoking and addiction. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:43, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
How so? I'm honestly confused by your response.Hubert (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
its an entirely redundant statement that only serves to reinforce a smokers sense of comradery over shared experiences and against such shaming statements from people who 'do not understand'. you can see the same behaviours amongst addicts of harder illegal drugs where obvious statements of the harm and inconvenience addicts put themselves through produce the same reaction. for example, the dangers of overdosing are both already well known and mythologised - every addict has a tale of 'when they nearly died'. they'll glady tell you as they take another hit. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Right. Well, that's clear then. I suppose.Hubert (talk) 10:30, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Lemme address Hubert's assessment first. The main reason I switched from analogue to space cigarettes is because I live in an apartment complex, and it is getting warm. Officially, the rules are no smoking. I smoked on my balcony all winter. And would you believe it, I feel lame for not following the rules. People are starting to open their windows, and I don't want to be the guy who puts that second-hand smoke in the atmosphere. Maybe we don't have the same definition of lame, but I am willing to recognize yours, and I am willing to recognize when mine fails. My right to smoke a cigarette ends where your right to not smell second hand smoke begins. I don't think it's lame to be against cig smell, versus thinking it's pretty lame to be into vaping candy, which is still very helpful to me in not vaping all day every day. And yeah, it's fine to enjoy candy. I personally don't like sweet stuff and feel a little pushed out, but you'll notice that to get that sweet, sweet nicotine, I have settled on something that tastes different from what I'd like. This is a workaround. I don't love it, it's not ideal, but I'm taking it seriously, at least as a method to deliver nicotine. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC) 02:16, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Vaping is fine in my book, as long as it's used to quit smoking. However, I will say that I'm in school now, and the bathrooms smell like cotton candy windex, not to mention the surprisingly large amount of kids in my grade who started smoking with vape. An ordinary human man (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
There was an old TV show featuring Thomas Lennon (of Reno 911), Viva Variety. In one sketch, it satirically advertised flavored nicotine gum as a great way to get kids started smoking. This was in 1997. Oh, how art imitates life faster than life can keep up. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 05:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Something I found while searching for info on Cyberpunk 2077[edit]

Oh noes, the evil leftist SJWs are pushing for non-traditional gender roles in a game set in the cyberpunk genre... I mean, it's not like the cyberpunk genre was partly born out of a 1990s anti-establishment, anti-capitalist, pro-progress mentality... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:15, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I had to draw my reply ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:29, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
That seems to be the casual reaction to the cyberpunk genre in a nutshell. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:45, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
I know you just typo'd but I still am struggling to think of a reaction that's not causal. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:53, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Cyberpunk seems big on androgyny. It's all boots and tactical pants. Unless there's a gendering in which part of your hair you shave or spike that I'm not picking up on. --Annanoon (talk) 16:01, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@Annanoon That seems to be more a part of punk culture in general. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:32, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
That's basically the Malcolm McLaren (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLaren) fashion side of the punk movement (New York Dolls, Sex Pistols, the boutique Sex, etc... with some liberal borrowing from Richard Hell's stage ethos). I don't consider that side of punk fashion to be super androgynous, but of course there is a link to glam via the Dolls, which is often androgynous. Via cyberpunk there's also a link to "cyber goth" fashion which often can be quite androgynous (as goth fashion overall, also linked to punk, sometimes can be). As far as the OP goes, my best guess is, like all of this activist war crap, very few people who actually intends to play Cyberpunk 2077 at some point are the ones foaming at the mouth 9 months ago (and the people who are foaming at the mouth have moved onto fresh new things to get angry about by now.)Soundwave106 (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
GrammarCommie I read the article at the beginning, and it was like, "wow, this is a great thing... But is there also an option of asexuals because there's focus on sleeping next to guys or girls" but then the article suddenly said this

Nevertheless, most normal people were pretty disappointed with how CD Projekt seems to be heavily focusing the sociopolitical aspects around what Social Justice Warriors want out of the game. For anyone not in the know, the SJW ethos is themed around societal degeneracy and mental illness.

""""""Most normal"""""" people!? Is it not normal to acknowledge the existence of intersex or gay people? How is it a game that acknowledges that those people exist considered for "leftists"? Honestly, this article tells me more about this whiny author than the game, that he is bothered that those options exist and that certain minority demographics is shown. Seriously, screw that author. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 18:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Is One Angry Gamer a site that we can create a page about? Pretty sure they'd be pulling the GamerGate card too... Tinribmancer (talk) 16:15, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Everything I know I learned from College Buddies[edit]

Nerd question[edit]

Can an object switch between being a wave and particle? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 22:40, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

If it is convenient to the object and causes annoyance, probably. (The objects that you are urgently looking for switch to their wave format and revert to particle format when you have wasted enough time and/or acquired a replacement.) Anna Livia (talk) 23:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@BobRoss On the quantum scale yes, on the macroscopic scale no. Dr. Ox quack specialist 23:46, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@Oxyaena How would you explain the following phenomenon: Object A can assume a wave and particle function, but most of the time it assumes the former. When Object B, which only has a particle function, interacts with it in the split second that it is a particle, both will assume a wave function in the view of outside observers, but Object B will experience itself as having a particle function. ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 00:30, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Copenhagen interpretationWikipedia's W.svg. Dr. Ox quack specialist 00:52, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Also Wave–particle dualityWikipedia's W.svgHubert (talk) 09:54, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
You know, if an object could do that, it would go a long way towards explaining a lot of comic book "physics". Kencolt (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
@Oxyaena As a side question, I've read that virtual particles can be turned into normal ones, does this necessarily mean that the reverse is also possible? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Where the hell did you read that? And no, it isn't. Oxyaena Harass 01:42, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I read it here ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 02:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
In fact, isn't the idea of making one virtual particle real the idea (or one of the ideas) behind Hawking radiationWikipedia's W.svg? Hubert (talk) 14:48, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't think an "object" can switch from being a wave to a particle or back. I think information can be misinterpreted, and measuring an object versus a wave does have surprising outcomes. We're talking about Schrodinger's equation here, if I'm reading this right. If not, let me know. The problem is, the object's existence in the quantum is only tracked and implied by the wave, and the wave can have really weird outcomes, as far as an object's properties are concerned. I've never been able to read math, I don't think I can say much on this. But thinking that the object can switch between the two is less a part of the paradox as thinking the wave might, and occasionally does, exhibit outcomes that are... Unlikely and unintuitive to object-centric physics. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:07, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

A valuable lesson I learned over time- only an idiot would want a zombie apocalypse[edit]

If someone wants a zombie apocalypse, they think it is easy survival because surviving the apocalypse is depicted as easy in zombie fiction. I guess that these people don't realize that a zombie plague is a disease that chases you and literally bites you in the ass. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

A zombie apocalypse as depicted in fiction would never happen irl, so these people have their work cut out for them. Just sayin'. Dr. Ox quack specialist 01:52, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Zombies are crap. "Oh no, zombies! Amble for your lives!" Avida Dollarsher again 09:18, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Ha ha yeah, the real apocalypse is global warming, which these people have their work cut out for them surviving. Dr. Ox quack specialist 09:24, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

So all the many people who actively want a zombie apocalypse are wrong? I'm sure that you are right in that - but that's a fairly niche section of the population to be taking issue with.Hubert (talk) 12:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure how "valuable" this lesson is. Avida Dollarsher again 17:28, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
You know, that question you get "What are you going to do when society collapses?" is pretty easy to answer. "What everybody does. Maintain society." Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
not 'get eaten by wolves?' AMassiveGay (talk) 17:12, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Technical difficulties my ass[edit]

It doesn't matter what computer I'm using, how good my internet is, or where I am, I still experience the same difficulties, regardless of the website. I know Reddit has a waiting period between comments and posts, even for a guy with 1000 karma, but god dayum I should think 40 hours is enough of a waiting time. And I'm not banned anywhere. I've experienced difficulties posting on Reddit, Rationalwiki, Twitter, and Wikipedia. I had an account on Change.org which has now disappeared completely. My Twitter account was hacked by a guy from Puerto Rico. Someone has attempted to log into my Wikipedia account over 90 times, and Reddit became increasingly hard to use. All of my passwords use weird IPA symbols and are extremely long mind you, I have them save in files just in case I forget them. Is it strange for all this to happen to one person? ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ (talk) 04:53, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Dr. Ox quack specialist 09:37, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Reddit had scheduled maintenance and some issues over the last few days. Wikipedia had a problem with a patch installation or somesuch yesterday, and is suffering an ongoing API cyberattack from Grawp (apparently) trying to hack another admin account (he's been at it for months). RationalWiki should have been fine. And as far as Twitter is concerned, any password less than 10 characters long can be cracked now in a matter of minutes, even if it has weird symbols. Also consider using an encrypted password manager. No clue what happened to your change.org account. NekoDysk 11:02, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
"experienced difficulties" is a pretty non-specific through-line for issues. Don't end up like the people who start believing in gang stalking. Try to formulate a specific connection between your various issues, and then test its validity. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Are you A.O.K?[edit]

"PS: I really will not allow the simple 👌 gesture to belong to the moronic dogwhistling catfishing foghorning frogmarching pigsticking dickwaving few who attempt to appropriate it for their own fatuous fantasies. T"

Once again, Stephen Fry is the voice of reason. Thinker(unlicensed) 17:47, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Health Insurance Logic 101[edit]

They like to cover penis pills and breast implants yet they don't like to cover the newest psychiatric medicine or physical therapy or service animals. Penis pills and unnecessary surgeries should not be covered. Maybe someone with Cerebral Palsy needs physical therapy to help improve movement but they can be screwed over. I have heard of things like this.

The United States should adopt the same healthcare system Canada or Norway has. It is far better. No I am not being anti-American, I am just saying we have a shitty healthcare system. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, something is very wrong when to treat a cancer may mean bankruptcy, no matter what libertarians with their "insurance ruled by the free market and charity for those who cannot afford it" BS may say. Panzerfaust (talk) 09:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
The biggest problem with healthcare in the US is that everybody has Medicare, Medicaid, or private insurance pumping up prices charged by the providers. It's all about supply and demand. I'll guarantee if Medicaid weren't a thing there would be more dentists around who didn't charge such high prices that uninsured people have to take out a loan to pay them. I would undoubtedly qualify for Medicaid, but I don't believe in it, so I don't have it. (talk) 20:01, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
This stupidly complex mishmash of insurance schemes is in fact one of the biggest reasons US health care is so high (high administrative costs, stupidly opaque pricing, lack of price control authority in the public schemes), as well as the perverse, patent-protected monopolies that have engulfed the health care industry. (Generally, when you see obnoxiously high prices for meh level of service, a monopolized industry of some kind is involved. Cable providers are another example.) I believe that the "free market" will create issues that many would find problematic from a moral perspective (see the scandals in the 1980s that led to the EMTALA) so... Soundwave106 (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Reminder that we subsidize healthcare for Europe too. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 22:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Supply and demand doesn't apply: healthcare is inelastic. Raising the price of healthcare doesn't reduce the number of sick people. Hannasanarion (talk) 15:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I can answer that easy. Long story short, companies shop for insurance, and the person making the decision of which insurance product to purchase? Generally, an older male. If your plan doesn't cover ED drugs, he will go with your competitor's plan. Yay, free market! CoryUsar (talk) 00:49, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Healthcare is a human right. Free market health insurance is about profit, not people. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Free market healthcare is a mixed bag. One the one hand, you pay more, have sudden unexpected bankruptcies, and are constantly exposed to the terrifying threat of "your money or your life". But on the other hand, it also delivers much worse medical outcomes. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:02, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
It's almost as if you are against medical bills also paying the administrators and accountants required to sort out each individual bill. Be ye against jobs? And when they are overloaded and give them over to collection agencies, be ye against them jerbs too!?! Ahem, forgive me, I'm a classical liberal, you know how sometimes our voices crack. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:58, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Here in Europe, hearing these US conversations about private/public healthcare is quite curious. In most European countries there's some kind of public healthcare, and it works quite good - in keeping you alive. Usually, if you have a "standard" disease (the flu, a broken leg, appendicitis...) or if you require immediate assistance, then you go for public healthcare. But if you have something which has not an easy diagnosis, you go for the private, otherwise you will wait months for exams and you'll probably get a tons of wrong diagnosis. Thinker(unlicensed) 21:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Is the EU Democratic?[edit]

Thinker(unlicensed) 15:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

D&D and stuff?[edit]

I don't know why, but I have to ask. Would anyone here join me for D&D sessions? I'd make some justification for it but honestly, I just want to buff myself to the fucking nines and punch demons with friends. Tyrian (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm already running a campaign of my own at college, so I can't join. A bit of advice, though; if you plan on running sessions via the internet, keep your party down to about 4 people, give or take. It's difficult enough managing players in person, but it's even worse over the internet. Good luck with the campaign, though. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:48, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
I would, but I'm too socially awkward to talk to strangers for more than 30 minutes.2601:1C2:4B01:3F5B:4994:6EB0:13F:FE72 (talk) 00:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm game. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 03:50, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
It would depend on hours and DM flexibility. I do like to run one-off prone-to-death characters though. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:58, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Do you have a DM secured yet? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 17:35, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Wish me luck, going to make an article on the Ukrainian Interregional Academy of Personnel Management- David Duke's alma mater[edit]

I opened a window to the site and will be digging into the pile of racist bullshit. My irony meter is ready --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:51, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

You created a tiny stub, so I moved it into a draft. That was me being nice; the next one gets vapped. Pizza SLICE.gifDuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictator moderator 00:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Zapped + vaped = vapped? Bongolian (talk) 03:35, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Aren't chiropractors just doctors who work with bones? In such a case,[edit]

why call it pseudoscience? 2600:1:F16D:E16C:941C:41E2:C029:C63 (talk) 00:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Most Chiropractors pretend to be physicians and many subscribe to various pseudosciences that are billed as natural. In Arizona, Chiropractors are able to be primary care physicians and can prescribe some medications MD's do. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 00:32, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
To expand -- at their very best, chiros make effective adjustments to the spine that make a patient feel better or improve mobility, and give patients exercises and stretches, and that's it. If that's all they do and claim to do, they're probably not quacks. Others claim essentially everything can be treated with chiro, including ear infections and allergies and autism (which is deeply offensive to non-neurotypical people), and that babies should start with chiropractic from Day 1. There's absolutely no evidence for any of that: so, quackery. Probably most chiropractors occupy some point in the murky ground between those extremes. Some of the medical doctors who do "work with bones" are orthopedic surgeons and rheumatologists. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
A lot of this is covered by this great website where there is a complete article.Hubert (talk) 10:33, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Bone doctors are called orthopaedic surgeons. Chiropractors are glorified masseuses. Hannasanarion (talk) 15:11, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
No, no they are not "just doctors who work with bones". They aren't doctors, they don't "work with bones". ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:03, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't think I would have a major problem with Chiropractors if their scope of practice was extremely limited. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:34, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
You mean like a masseuse? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Almost every chiro does something dangerous and ineffective: neck cracking, which can cause a stroke. I've been to a chiro but I wouldn't do it now, knowing what I now know. Bongolian (talk) 07:28, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I once worked with a guy who was going to go in to chiro. His dad was a chiropractor. Another guy guy asked him to help with his neck pain, I watched in horror as this aspiring chiropractitioner put him in a full-nelson, lifted him up, and proceeded to shake him around. I only spent one year wrestling before I was like "nope, not for me" but one of the first things we learned about holds was the full nelson is not ok, it can break a person's neck. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)


It's a "thing". I don't even know what to call it, but the people who are against it seem to hit most of the mission requirements, with the authoritarian part coming from the Russians, who of course would love it if the US and Western Europe are slow in implementing it.

And the "anti" movement is loaded with bad science.

I can barely remember how to make bold text and sign my name. One you kids is gonna have to write the article! ħumanUser talk:Human 05:15, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

You're alive?! Why not become more active yourself? It would be a great honor to have you as part of the community again. Oxyaena Harass 08:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Human has a grown up job, and is very busy. I mean, so do I, but I'm a slacker. And the 5G conspiracies I've seen vaguely mentioned on the internet are: a. it'll give you cancer, b. it can be used to scan your body like a millimeter wave device used at airports "it's a similar frequency, so it MUST work the same way". Somehow the novel snowcrash is involved. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:09, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Are we talking about the wireless network for mobile devices? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Indeed we are. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:43, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm going to go cry into my breakfast now... ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:48, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
5G communications will cover a very wide frequency band: 500 MHz to 6 GHz, and then 24 to 86 GHz. A lot of the paranoia comes from other technologies which fall within these frequency bands. Now mind you, because of the wide frequency bands, a lot of technology is going to overlap, so the scare examples are usually cherry picks. One such article is complaining that there are weapon systems at 96 GHz (which is 'close' to 86 GHz) that are used to burn people. The thing is, if you understand light frequencies, you would know that there is nothing special about the frequencies being used. High frequency light does not penetrate as deeply into materials as low frequency light (unless you get to extremely high frequencies like xrays or gamma rays, but those are frequencies over 1 million times higher than the GHz band). Light which does not penetrate an object dumps heat into that object. 96 GHz is a high enough frequency for low penetration depth (less than the thickness of skin), but they are using a system intense enough to cause burning. It isn't magic. Transmission speeds are also linearly related to the light frequency (except fiber optics, but those use a different technology). They want high frequencies because 86 GHz can transmit twice as fast as 43 GHz. Communications, as technology improves, is naturally going to cover every possible frequency; of course it will overlap with other systems. The question is intensity, and the articles I've seen always just complain about the frequency. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 19:33, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Yep, nothing is new here, really. Radiation woo has been around for a while, probably since the days of radio for all I know. The biggest thing I see Googling the Reddit conspiracy forum is a whole "mind control" / spying angle, I remember that this was a popular conspiracy for OTA television too. (There are some legitimate concern about electronic government spying, many from Edward Snowden to the EFF have discussed these topics... the conspiracy woomeisters just seems to fail to learn enough bare minimum technical details to know which spying concerns are BS and which are not.) Soundwave106 (talk) 19:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
It's a fair concern, actually. The reality is that the intensity is pretty high at the point of broadcast. But the laws of physics have their place, and the inverse square law reduces "dangerously hot" at 10 centimeters to "can't even feel it" at 10 meters. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:40, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, it could be dangerous - if it were focused and directed. But you could say the same about visible light in the form of a laser. Both visible light and 5G are forms of non-ionising radiation but I would be more worried about sunburn from ultraviolet in sunlight than I would be about brain cancer from 5G. One is a real predictable and preventable problem and the other - well, isn't.Hubert (talk) 15:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

TheAlternativeHypothesis on Contrapoints[edit]

I support the bill for lowering the cost of prescription medication[edit]


Drug companies should not be extorting people, period. As for effective cancer medications many go bankrupt trying to pay for it. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah. I mean, paying any price for medicine is crazy to me, but lowering the costs is great. An ordinary human man (talk) 13:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Will the government pay the difference between the price established by the drug companies and the lowered price? Because if drug companies cannot make the profit they want, then they lose the incentive to produce drugs. Especially new one, which require very big investments and risks. Thinker(unlicensed) 20:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Relativity Denial[edit]

I've noticed that a lot of people on relativity videos are constantly spouting how "GPS doesn't really compensate for relativity" and that "relativity is a sham" or how "the creators of GPS don't even believe in relativity". Has anyone gone down this rabbit hole before? Where I work (a calibration laboratory), relativistic effects are straight up measurable as we have to compensate for them when using GPS clocks (not compensating causes some pretty big errors). I simply don't understand why people get so offended at the idea of relativity. The RW page on relativity only mentions people who try to correlate the theory of relativity with moral relativism, but what I've noticed appears to be another animal entirely.

Edit: I just noticed the RW page on Anti-Relativity. I was linked to this site as a "proof" against relativity by some person on the internet. The site is written by one Bernard Burchell. Does anyone know anything about him? MirrorIrorriM (talk) 01:23, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Burchell appears to be a typical "crank arrogant", the type that proves Dunning-Kruger right and is very typical of "alternative expert websites". They think they know a lot on a subject, but really don't. This guy even links to Paul Gerber, who was used by relativity critics back in the 1920s, showing that this is nothing new. (At least back then there was no atomic clocks and particle accelerators -- these days if you had $10000 (heh) you could take a buy a couple of atomic clocks and prove time dilation effects yourself.) Soundwave106 (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Seems like just another timecube guy. Rando with a website that looks like it's from the 90's. I can't find anything about him in a cursory search aside from an obituary for someone of the same name (which could genuinely be coincidence). ℕoir LeSable (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Metaphysics Seems......[edit]

Like nonsense. I'm not trying to troll here but much of what I see about it has little to no impact on my day to day life. You have some who say that "nothing changes" to others that say "everything changes". Then there are some like Parmenides who said he got his philosophy from a Goddess (which would explain the nuttery of his philosophy).

It's just something that seems like it's nice to think about but that doesn't really do anything, even if you manage to get the answers to the question.Machina (talk) 02:04, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Why worry about it? Philosophy does not pay the rent or put food on the table, so choose what suits you, discard the rest, and get on with the practicalities of life. Castaigne2 (talk) 02:33, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I mean I am a bit concerned about how when I look on the wiki page he is called the Father of Metaphysics, and how Plato respected him. It said "Even Plato himself, in the Sophist, refers to the work of "our Father Parmenides" as something to be taken very seriously and treated with respect." Which might just mean he was the father of a waste of time.Machina (talk) 04:30, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides#InterpretationsMachina (talk) 04:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

I would have said the same thing. But Looking at the RW page on Metaphysics it looks like there are two different uses. One of which is clearly woo but the other more respectable.Hubert (talk) 13:56, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

It’s that when some people in metaphysics argue that there is no change and no motion because that would involve moving into nothing (which allegedly can’t exist) you’d have to wonder about their marbles at that point.Machina (talk) 20:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

I think that I might need a new Irony Meter[edit]


Channel name: TheLastWhiteMan

A hash of every piece of racist bullshit all in one YouTube channel. Plus some conspiracy nonsense for flavor. I could not even finish one video. I might just have to make an article for this one. This might make Alex Jones look sane in contrast. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 07:21, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

14,000 subscribers? That means he meets our YouTuber notability requirement fourteen times over. I wonder if it's time to revise that requirement yet. Spud (talk) 15:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Those were bare minimum requirements, not some rule that says we must document everyone who has the number. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:44, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

street preaching videos[edit]

It's (redacted trolling) ive come to ensquire, (more), etc in all seriousness, does anyone else here enjoy watching street preaching videos? Ive argued with Christians in person and that and ive been an atheist for yeas but I love watching videos of street preachers ranting at normal people. I think th reason I find it hilarious is most Americans identify with Chritianity but when real bible believers preach scripture they turn into mentalists. 2604:2000:814B:B300:E8AB:A38C:1284:FBFB (talk) 08:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC) aka User:TheAmazingSkeptic

No, I find it cringe worthy. Luckily open street proselytizing is looked down upon where I live, in the grand, glorious state of Ohio. Oxyaena Harass 13:08, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I do kind of find entertainment in watching the insane. I like reading the clogosphere articles. I'm not strong enough to actively find them on my own, but post-curation, I do like to scroll through them. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:53, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
I do too, but not Bible thumpers, in public anyways. I like my peace. Oxyaena Harass 15:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Serial killer[edit]

There's a serial killer operating in the town my sister lived in (until two days ago), they are operating in the same park she used to have to walk through to get home from work. They think it's the work of more than two masterminds because they already have one suspect, a black guy, in custody. I`m pretty confident the second maniac will be caught given the recent advances in technology, I`m placing a lot of stock in using genomic databases to catch the criminal, it's how they caught the Golden State KillerWikipedia's W.svg after all. Oxyaena Harass 13:06, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Why the fuck has no one given this section more attention that's a pretty serious issue --Yay for me, RightyBlueLuigi!(Not a Mod) 03:09, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
I noticed that too. Oxyaena Harass 05:08, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Does "Your sister lived in" mean she's dead,, or moved away?Summa Atheologica (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
i wonder if thats a question that could have been phrased more tactfully AMassiveGay (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Moved away. Oxyaena Harass 15:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
@RightyBlueLuigi @Oxyaena I mean, this is a tough one to talk about. Of course I'm against serial killing, is the question about DNA evidence? I'm not going to ask that, I'm going to be safe and assume as a matter of course you're fully loaded on the topic. I want anybody's sister to be safe, of course we hope for any serial killer to be stopped. This is like asking for somebody to call your sister's safety out, and I'm very glad she is safe. So here I go, is this a question about DNA evidence, on the whole? Not that it looks like a question at all. I do appreciate the up-front personal anecdote. It's just kind of difficult to respond to.Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:28, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
@Gol Sarnitt Thank you. Also it's a comment about DNA evidence, although I suppose it could count as a question as well. Regarding my sister, for which I said thank you, she is currently living with us, although times are a bit hard for her with her husband in jail and her kids in the custody of an abusive grandmother, but she's alive. Again, Gol, thank you. Oxyaena Harass 23:38, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
@Oxyaena Not even Thanks for responding with all those qualifiers. I feel for you, I'm an uncle myself. I'm sure you know there is nothing personal about my concern with DNA evidence. Stories | like this one always give me pause on convictions. Granted, this specific example I've referenced includes a false eyewitness account in the late 90's. I might be living in the past on DNA evidence, my peeve doesn't belong here. There is a thick history of DNA evidence being stored improperly and used/not used as evidence improperly. But you know what? I hope we do it right this time, for the sake of everybody. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 01:09, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

D. B. Cooper[edit]

I was reading about D. B. Cooper the other day. It's pretty interesting. We should really have an article about him, or at least mention him and some others in an article about unsolved mysteries, seeing as there's a lot of BS going around about him. An ordinary human man (talk) 13:29, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Bigfoot VS D. B. Cooper may be the greatest portrayal of two legends clashing in a thinly veiled homoerotic exploitation piece ever. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 15:39, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

LoserGate supporter Sargon Of Asshat got demonetized by Youtube[edit]


Didn't even know he joined UKIP. Tinribmancer (talk) 16:37, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Probably more notable as a UKIP MEP candidate tbh. "You know, that one that threatened to rape a MP" ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
losergate? Asshat? truely we are at the cutting edge of satire AMassiveGay (talk) 17:06, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I always refer to them as "LoserGate", since that's what they are. A bunch of losers. Tinribmancer (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
GooberGate supporter Fartgoon of Asswad got his smelly butt wiped by PooTube. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:56, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Recently I went to one of his rallies where people shouted at him and threw fish and milkshakes. It was epic. NekoDysk 18:37, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Sargon of Anchovies. TheUmbilicalCordGuy (talk) 18:41, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
@Dysklyver Did you film any of that? :P Tinribmancer (talk) 18:53, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Turns out Gamergate supporter (funny enough) Carl "two first names" Benjamin's chosen empire does not give a shit about dropping rape apologists from their Game of Thrones. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
@Tinribmancer Check the What is going on with the elections? page. there was a 4th milkshaking that happened a few days back against Carl. Not sure which ones are on video, but the photos are great, just Google it, you won't regret it. The photo of the fish.--NavigatorBR(Talk) - 10:56, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Make Pseudoscience Great Again[edit]

So apparently, Trump's ICE appointee claims that he can look at migrant youth in the eyes, and determine whether they will grow up to join gangs. I guess we can add parapsychology to the list of pseudosciences he's promoting, right? G Man (talk) 18:29, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, he is a president that seems rather hostile to science at least when it comes to budgeting. (sarc.) Just the type of attitude we need to "Make America Great Again". (/sarc.) At least Congress has rebuffed him so far, Trump tends to be much more hostile than general "GOP science" is (which is fine with science generally until the science becomes inconvenient for commercial or evangelical-rube-fleecin' interests...) Soundwave106 (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I would probably not mind him as much if he didn't empower so many conspiracy cranks and woo pushers with his rhetoric. Seems like his biggest accomplishment was bringing wackos of all sorts out of hiding. Politics aside, there are many objective reasons to dislike the man -- especially reasons pertaining to his hostility toward science. G Man (talk) 19:06, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
My non-political reason I don't like Trump: His ego is as big as a blimp. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 21:29, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
This one or this?
He needs more goat. Anna Livia (talk) 23:00, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I think the second one. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:59, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Cruelty is the point[edit]

In the latest edition of "The Trump administration is xenophobic and hates poor people" HUD proposes stripping housing benefits from people if one member of the family isn't legal. Aside from being definitely Xenophobic, laughably anti-Christian, it actually happens to be as cruel or worse as the first family separation policy. Nothing quite like denying benefits to poor children because one of their parents happened to want a better life for them. Really starting to question whether Hanlon's razor is applicable to this administration.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:20, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Was this legal? Anna Livia (talk) 23:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

This is why this anti-abortion crusade is nothing more than an attempt to control women's lives, to me. They don't really care about life, after all. G Man (talk) 23:53, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

This is the disheartening thing to me. I grew up/still live in the purple cities of the deep red Midwest. I can't remember any specific time I heard "hatred comes from a lack of understanding" but for the mid-nineties, it felt like a meme. Star Wars eventually worked it in to the prequels as a very memetic Yoda "fear to hatred," kinda thing, but I was a damn teenager by that point and bored of it. I mean, my freshman year, my honors English class was assigned To Kill a Mockingbird. I was like, "Nobody... has read this book yet?" Granted, I got a better look at it the second time around, but the pundits have turned this "hatred stems from ignorance" meme into "I understand minority groups and poor people better than they understand themselves, and I hate them for good reason." Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:19, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
..."describing in graphic terms the potential injuries that border-crossers might receive"...“I’m proud to tell you that was actually my sick idea,”...etc. Cruelty is shared pleasure that fires up his base. [6]. Millennium Scallion (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Anti-abortion laws should include a mandatory 'vasectomy at (suitably low age) with previous storage' for all men - which would largely eliminate the issue.
What further treatment should be given the legislators involved I leave to other RW-ians.Anna Livia (talk) 16:30, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Though different to an extent from the point I was addressing in this section, I would rather all of this be between a doctor and their patient as to the best choice for them. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:18, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Ben Carson, not content only to be racist, now adds transphobia to HUD Policy. Cruelty pure and simple. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:03, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, attacking Ben Carson on this is not cool. You know he has that brain thing, or whatever. We don't talk about it, sure, but we all recognize it. It is the administration's fault for putting him in that position. Am I being ablist? Yeah... I don't want to be... But look at the guy, it's clearly not Ben Carson's fault. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Brain thing? Are you implying he honed is craft as a skillful pediatric surgeon by operating on himself? Or that he's an imbecile? Because either way he's a disgrace and I literally only wish the worst for him. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 22:35, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Ben Carson is a public official. When he does awful shit, he deserves to be criticized by the people he claims to serve. Pizza SLICE.gifDuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictator moderator 23:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Ok, ok, ok, granted. But have you seen the inside of his house? Yes, he is a narcissist, but he is also clearly illiterate, or he wouldn't show off his "poverbs' quote, so I'm also pretty sure he didn't write his own book. Maybe he's a savant, a steady hand and a clear understanding of how to not destroy a physical brain when operating on one. But you don't appoint this guy to any role that requires literacy. Just flat out. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:10, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Oh the irony, the verse from Proverbs about humility lol. Oxyaena Harass 05:57, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Renewable Energy Article[edit]

So, I'm thinking of adding a new section to our Renewable energy page; energy storage and transmission. It's more of a general electric grid thing, so I'm wondering if this is closely tied in enough with renewable energy to be worth putting in. The issue is that renewables such as wind and solar are generally not "on-demand" energy sources, and as such, would require extra infrastructure to be used as a power backbone for any country. We do make a lot of mention of pumped-energy storage, which is a form of hydropower, as well as extremely high voltage transmission lines, but I'd like to organize that into their own section and add quite a bit more. For instance, battery storage for electric cars, even though an electric car article alone would probably be worthwhile.

Any thoughts?CoryUsar (talk) 01:00, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Sure, sounds fine. RoninMacbeth (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Had a Neo-Nazi troll comment on my Nazi Zombie EAS scenario[edit]

Before I could report it, the comment was gone. Just because a video depicts Nazi's does not mean a creator supports Nazi's. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:03, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Should be a corollary or perhaps counterpoint to Godwin's Law: sooner or later, any time Nazis are mentioned, a racist will be offended. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
I'm surprised it took this long. You're doing a political commentary (whatever you want to call it), and even if it's parody the Children of Poe will take notice, and will make their displeasure known. Usually with naughty words and suggestions of "negative" sexuality, ethnicity, and/or political or religious beliefs. Quite probably your ancestry too. That you even imply surprise that you received such on your channel astonishes me. Kencolt (talk) 05:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
"Just because a video depicts Nazi's does not mean a creator supports Nazi's" I like to call that the "Sabaton problem". Pizza SLICE.gifDuceMoosoliniYour friendly RW dictator moderator 05:55, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! I love sabaton, but the comments on every video are "des vult!" and "Aktchually, the pinkos were worse than the nazis. An ordinary human man (talk) 12:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

College fraternity[edit]

I moved the college fraternity page from draftspace to mainspace if anyone wants to have a readthrough or edit. It can still use more work, but it's fairly fleshed out. Bongolian (talk) 07:41, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

independent.co.uk... a decent news source?[edit]

I've heard that most of the UK news media is pretty awful, but does the Independent count as a decent (if not good) source? Towards-the Unknown (talk) 18:05, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

who says its pretty awful? stay away from red tops and you are generally fine. the independent is fine, but no by no means the best. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:25, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
It's a real newspaper that has a long history of having some kind of editorial standards. I wouldn't say it's the best, but you know, it's way above "making up stories" level. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:38, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Avoid Express.co.uk. They make stories up as they type. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 21:29, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
The Express is 'slightly' to the right of Genghis Khan (as the saying goes).
Believe what you will of the Sunday Sport. Anna Livia (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
You know, other than the wars, for his time, Khan was really pretty progressive. His khannate abolished both slavery and state religion. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 03:24, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Did I Hallucinate?[edit]

So one time when I was actually into meditation (after like a few weeks) I noticed that one time my vision changed from blackness (I had my eyes closed) to a bright and clear sky blue (as though there wasn't a single cloud in the sky). I was outside during this. When I opened my eyes it vanished. Everything was black (kind of like if you close your eyes and then after a bit open them), but nothing special really. Was this some kind of hallucination, I know they can happen in meditation.Machina (talk) 04:05, 24 May 2019 (UTC)