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Collapse of the Assad regime in Syria[edit]
Looks like a government collapses. What is next? --Trans Fem Agenda 12:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- While the collapse has been less 'sudden' than outsiders think [here's a Foreign Policy thinkpiece from July which shows how the regime was clearly crumbling and it's economy has been falling to bits for years] I suspect it was still too sudden for the opposition forces to really start thinking of the 'post Assad regime'. There's two complicating factors; the fact the opposition was not in anyway a 'unified front' [unlike say, the Afghan Taliban] where senior members can simply have govt posts distributed to them and the looks that part of said collapse was due to significant defections from the ruling regime.
- In short; classic power vacuum. We have a rag-tag of Sunni opposition groups with no guiding ideology past 'get rid of Baathists', a load of defected Baathists who are hoping to retain as much power as realistically possible to stop revenge/justice, the 'sectarian' forces of Alawites, Druze and Christian fearing future pogroms [esp as a lot (esp Alawites) are heavily tainted by being part of the Assad regime], a load of very well-armed Kurds which have no real interest of being in this 'Syria' thing [which Turkey also hates like poison], a few 'technocratic' types who'd like to simply 'get shit running again' and a plethora of organised crime groups who will fight to either coopt, defang or destroy anyone who resists their control of whatever they fucking want. What else? Oh, remains of ISIS still wandering the desert [literally] and a load of prison camps filled with those cargos of poison which might end up being 'opened'.
- The only 'good' thing in this case is that due to lack of Western resources, bandwidth and in Trump's case, actually giving a shit about the situation that a neocon/lib 'installing of democracy' is very unlikely to happen. Which sounds cuntish, but let's remember this shit does not work. Perhaps the most realistic 'best case' is that within days, we see a troika of major faction leaders form, install a somewhat 'rough and ready' power structure and then successfully rope in the majority of the minor 'acceptable' factions in a kind of modern feudal system. KarmaPolice (talk) 15:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Al-Julani has made a remarkable rhetorical transformation these last few years. Let's see how sincere it was.-Flandres (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- It wouldn't surprise me if the Kurds went for a separate Kurdish state. That was the de facto position before the fall of Assad anyway. On the other hand, Erdoğan would have a fit. — Unsigned, by: Bob M / talk / contribs
- There's rumours that Assad is either a) dead or b) in the UAE. It seems only two 'trackable' planes left govt-controlled areas yesterday - an civilian Airbus going to Sharjah and a military Il-76 which seemed to be heading towards the Russian naval base on the coast, but then veered eastwards, began to lose height and then vanished from the long-range radar. It could have been shot down [the Syrian military had this capability so rebels could have got their mitts on it] but it's also possible they turned the transponders off and were going to make a run over northern Iraq into Iran.
- At last report, Assad has taken "asylum" in Russia. This makes sense. If nothing else, it would look bad--even for Putin-- to abandon the man they have supported for years to the vagaries of revolutionary "justice", which could mean anything from exile (already done?) to a firing squad. Kencolt (talk) 19:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- There's rumours that Assad is either a) dead or b) in the UAE. It seems only two 'trackable' planes left govt-controlled areas yesterday - an civilian Airbus going to Sharjah and a military Il-76 which seemed to be heading towards the Russian naval base on the coast, but then veered eastwards, began to lose height and then vanished from the long-range radar. It could have been shot down [the Syrian military had this capability so rebels could have got their mitts on it] but it's also possible they turned the transponders off and were going to make a run over northern Iraq into Iran.
- It wouldn't surprise me if the Kurds went for a separate Kurdish state. That was the de facto position before the fall of Assad anyway. On the other hand, Erdoğan would have a fit. — Unsigned, by: Bob M / talk / contribs
- Al-Julani has made a remarkable rhetorical transformation these last few years. Let's see how sincere it was.-Flandres (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Totally irrelevant, I know. But I have a bit of a morbid curiosity to topic of the 'end of dictators'. KarmaPolice (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Why does Syria matter? I'll be honest and say all I know of the country I learned in the last hour skimming RationalWiki and other pages about the place... doesn't seem to be any "good guys" at all in civil war that was occurring... so why the need for any foreign intervention? Innocents are dying, yes; and more would likely, and have died, with interventions. Is Syria so important for economics or the nonsense "balance of power" chess game that politicians play? The country is in ruins from the prolonged fighting anyways apparently. If a nation bordering Syria wants to get involved for their own security, I could understand that reasoning... though it could be argued how positive doing so would be compared to going after domestic organizations that are involved and profiting off the situation. Countries like Canada and the US, truly why does Syria matter? Better to let the country have some time to fix itself, one way or another. Impiricism (talk) 18:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Realpolitik time.
- 1/ Syria has a butt-load of advanced military kit we wouldn't like to see fall into the wrong hands.
- 2/ It's believed Syria has chemical/biological weapons we really wouldn't like to see go walkies.
- 3/ We don't want another massive Syrian refugee wave hitting Europe.
- 4/ We don't want a prolonged power vacuum because it may lead to the restoring of 'peak ISIS' [remember when they got powerful enough they basically 'marched on Baghdad', the Iraqi Govt shat itself, armed anyone who would resist and thank fuck, actually did?]
- 5/ The fall of Assad cuts of a main supply-line to Hezbollah and we'd prefer it not to be restored.
- 6/ If we can get a mildly anti Iranian/Russian regime in Damascus this means those Russian bases are gone and weakens their power/status in-region.
- 7/ If we can get a mildly anti Israeli regime in Damascus this means outright war is unlikely [the other option being 'rabidly anti-Israel'.
- 8/ It's probably best that Syria does not become an obvious puppet/vassal of Turkey.
- KarmaPolice (talk) 19:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are other points - some associated with what you have said. On (2) the reason that it is believed that the regime had chemical weapons is because it used them various times against it's own people. On (3) it is entirely possible that we will see a wave of Syrian leaving Europe and returning to Syria. That's that's going to depend on how the other points play out but it would only be a good thing it it happened.
- It's also important because it demonstrates the current weakness of Syria's erstwhile supporters- Hezbollah, Iran and Russia.
- I would argue that the secular groups fighting to get rid of Assad and the Kurds who fought against both ISIS and Assad (before Trump left them in the lurch) are the closest thing to "good guys" in the conflict.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do a foreign intervention to get rid of "weapons of mass destruction"... that sounds familiar; how did a backwater third-world country get such advanced weaponry in the first place again? For the other reasons listed, they are literally the bullshit "balance of powers" chess game mentioned. I know that a nation is likely putting itself at a disadvantage not playing such games when other unscrupulous entities will play... it does not make it any better though. The reasons are bullshit but I know that they're valid too... I just wish the world and people were different where those reasons would not exist. Impiricism (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Adding to the significance, the two bases that Russia has in Syria, one air and one naval, are Russia's only two military bases that are not located in a former Soviet state. The likelihood that Russia could retain either of those bases at this point is slim given that the leader of the strongest rebel group (HTS) has spoken against future foreign intervention in Syria. The loss of those bases would seem to significantly weaken Russia's global reach, particularly in Africa. Turkey would also benefit from the return of most of the 4-million Syrian refugees to Syria, and this is probably why Turkey was backing HTS despite, along with the US and Russia, labeling HTS as a terrorist group, and despite recently trying to negotiate their return with Assad. Israel also participated to some extent in Assad's downfall with regular bombings of the Syrian militia in Syria, probably adding to the existing demoralization. Why did the Syrian military collapse so quickly? Syrian military officers were reportedly being paid as little as the equivalent of $10/month! Russia has to be rethinking who they can cooperate with in future: it doesn't look like Israel or Turkey are possibilities in the near future. Three (Hamas, Hezbollah, Syrian Army) of four (Houthis in Yemen) of Iran's proxy armies are now greatly weakened or eliminated. It must be causing rethinking the wisdom of these decisions. There were more moderate politicians in Iran who questioned their wisdom in the past. The cost of supplying Hezbollah was very high for Iran over the years, particularly for a country under sanctions. Iranians have often complained about the cost of living, which is directly related to the sanctions and the adventurism. Bongolian (talk) 03:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do a foreign intervention to get rid of "weapons of mass destruction"... that sounds familiar; how did a backwater third-world country get such advanced weaponry in the first place again? For the other reasons listed, they are literally the bullshit "balance of powers" chess game mentioned. I know that a nation is likely putting itself at a disadvantage not playing such games when other unscrupulous entities will play... it does not make it any better though. The reasons are bullshit but I know that they're valid too... I just wish the world and people were different where those reasons would not exist. Impiricism (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Turkey's designs for Syria are just as self-interested as Iran's are/were. Turkey massacres Kurdish populations in Syria, Turkey has used Syrian mercenaries to conduct war crimes in Artsakh, and has engaged in forced deportations of Syrian refugees. If I was a Syrian Kurd, I would be very nervous right now. And while it is indisputably a good thing that Assad is gone, the group that has replaced him are literally just "not Al-Qaeda." We should be careful not to engage in whitewashing here. Carthage (talk) 08:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Israel is stealing more land in Syria. They just can't help themselves, can they? Carthage (talk) 08:08, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just a note on the notion that pre civil war Syria was ”a backwater third-world country”. Syria was a fairly well educated society (as seen by a lot of the resourceful refugees who tended to have better chances of getting to Europe and often quickly found work).
- Damascus used to be seen as one of the cultural and educational centres in the Arab world and the Ba’ath Party tended to look for inspiration to the USSR and its penchant for solid technical/engineering education, as it would both allow the training of industrial engineers more broadly and specifically those needed for a domestic arms industry.
- You don’t have to be some industrial superpower to produce the kind of chemical weapons Syria was pursuing. As long as you have even a moderately sophisticated chemical industry and decide to dedicate state resources to it, getting chemical weapons is a lot easier than going nuclear.
- As Syria had worked on its chemical weapons programme for literally decades (since daddy Assad took over in the 1970s) and had decided to arm itself to the teeth for yet another possible rematch with Israel (realising what that would mean in terms of crossing the US), it’s not a huge mystery that a state with a fairly well educated pre war population of more than 20 million (or at least enough of its workforce having the necessary qualifications), along with its own petrochemical industry and able to rely on oil exports for hard currency could and would field such weapons.
- Indeed, you could argue that the large Syrian stockpile of chemical weapons was a move analogous to the massive stockpile of conventional weapons and extensive fortification programme in communist Albania when that country ended up being run by a dictator (Enver Hoxha) who had alienated the major surrounding powers. While Syria was never as isolated as Albania or had pissed off all of the major powers as much, it did end up not being that closely allied to any of them either and with a dictator (the elder Assad) who was keen on not being too reliant on foreign support, either. ScepticWombat (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I also would like to caution against the kind of chauvinist thinking that leads to the sentence "how can this backwater third world nation construct chemical weapons," as if the Global South and the people in it are inferior in capability to the Global North. It's that kind of thinking that led to the US getting its ass kicked in Afghanistan and Vietnam. Carthage (talk) 19:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure it's exactly that, more like thinking that Syria has a level of industrial, scientific and technical development of say, Mali. I remember seeing similar in the runup to the Ukraine War, where a lot of Western [often American] commentators etc 'failed' to notice that while clearly outgunned and outnumbered, no Ukraine did have her own metal/bodies/brains and a decent indigenous military production capacity to support it in an 'Industrial Era' war. And as Wombat points out, no Syria was not Mali - perhaps pre-War only a little behind Ukraine. What's more, making chemical weapons isn't that hard; the science and engineering isn't 'secret' and almost all the tech needed is dual-use [so countries can import it without too many eyebrows]. The most difficult bit is turning the poisons into viable delivery systems and kitting out your own people with decent anti-chem kit, which is the sort of shit Western spies are always watching out for [we knew Russia wasn't going to use chem/bio in combat in Ukraine because to this date they've not broken out the NBC respirators etc for their troops... yet] but in this case 95% of the work was done in advance because Soviet military doctrine stressed NBC fighting and so Syria [like Iraq] had the kit etc already lying about. Case in point; ISIS is believed to have manufactured/used mustard gas by '15 and after they conquered Mosul in '17 they started to ramp up production of chorine and if I remember right, was attempting to develop missile delivery systems. Plus, Hoxha's Albania did have chemical weapons; after the regime's fall thousands of drums of mustard gas and means to use it in battle were discovered.
- Indeed, you could argue that the large Syrian stockpile of chemical weapons was a move analogous to the massive stockpile of conventional weapons and extensive fortification programme in communist Albania when that country ended up being run by a dictator (Enver Hoxha) who had alienated the major surrounding powers. While Syria was never as isolated as Albania or had pissed off all of the major powers as much, it did end up not being that closely allied to any of them either and with a dictator (the elder Assad) who was keen on not being too reliant on foreign support, either. ScepticWombat (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Anyway, Assad's 'fall' was somewhat on the cards for some time. Syria's economic development has been fairly poor since the 90s and got worse after Saddam fell because it meant Assad couldn't make money off sanctions-busting [a common tactic was to import cut-rate Iraqi oil and use it domestically, so they could then export more Syrian oil at market rates]. By 2015 the Syrian 'economic base' wasn't big enough to support a military strong enough to defeat the rebels, and Russian/Iranian support was pivotal because it gave extra capabilities beyond what they could actually 'afford'. But now Russia and Iran are hurting, and don't have the means to be so generous [Russia appears to have almost exhausted their Soviet-era weapons piles which might explain why we're seeing sixty year old tanks and seventy year old APCs with infantry using century-plus old rifles. if we go back any further we're going to be seeing cavalry and prop fighter planes] while the Syrian economic capacity is a lot smaller due to over a decade of war. This was translated in Syria by actions such as removal of fuel/food subsidies to the population and a partial demobilisation. What kind of regime cuts shit which buys them public support and actual forces during a civil war [admittedly one which had gotten rather stale and cold]? One which no longer has the economic base to support it. The economic stats don't lie: electricity production [from 2010] -80%, gas -60%, oil -90%, wheat -70%, olive oil -75%, cattle -30%, sheep/goats -40%, chicken -65%, water facilities -65%, cotton -85%, soybeans -99%, sunflowers -100%, industrial output -30%. To some extent Syria by 2024 had become 'a backwater third-world country'. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Even Mali is a "backwater" only by valuation. If we consider the Global North to be the global core, and the Global South to be the periphery, then yes, Mali and Syria are "third-world backwaters." I am not disputing that global inequities in development exist; I'm questioning the valuation that leads to labels like "third-world backwaters" being thrown around uncritically. Wombat did a good job of refuting the notion that Syria's status as a member of the global south must have meant it was always a failed state, or just about, but it's still worth questioning the valuation that leads to lines of logic like "how can this third-world shithole possess such marvels of chemical engineering. It had to have been provided by somebody else." Carthage (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- i think part of the reason brics is forming is because of this patronizing rhetoric about so-called "third world" countries. sure, the "global south" (itself not a term without its controversies) isn't a monolith, but they aren't uncivilized savages or anything like that. (for example, see brazil, arguably a major player in scientific research that gave the world an aviation pioneer.) i mean, look at how many students pursuing advanced degrees in the first world/global north are international students. assad himself is an ophthalmologist by profession who was educated in england as well as in his native syria. The G (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, most folks are ignorant. They don't even understand the accurate position of their own country (or what sustains it/they arrived at it), let alone other lands. If they think of other lands, the 'internal image' is either obsolete/biased/incorrect. Reporting bias is an issue; I mean there has precious 'positive' to report from 'the Muslim world' for example for decades - Afghanistan, Yemen, Palestine, Iraq? The first three are clearly 'basketcases' and the forth not much better. Even the 'rich Gulf states' stereotype has some basis in fact - that folks understand that they pay Western professionals etc very well mainly that their own lands are relatively incapable of producing their own (though in this case, it's by choice).
- i think part of the reason brics is forming is because of this patronizing rhetoric about so-called "third world" countries. sure, the "global south" (itself not a term without its controversies) isn't a monolith, but they aren't uncivilized savages or anything like that. (for example, see brazil, arguably a major player in scientific research that gave the world an aviation pioneer.) i mean, look at how many students pursuing advanced degrees in the first world/global north are international students. assad himself is an ophthalmologist by profession who was educated in england as well as in his native syria. The G (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Even Mali is a "backwater" only by valuation. If we consider the Global North to be the global core, and the Global South to be the periphery, then yes, Mali and Syria are "third-world backwaters." I am not disputing that global inequities in development exist; I'm questioning the valuation that leads to labels like "third-world backwaters" being thrown around uncritically. Wombat did a good job of refuting the notion that Syria's status as a member of the global south must have meant it was always a failed state, or just about, but it's still worth questioning the valuation that leads to lines of logic like "how can this third-world shithole possess such marvels of chemical engineering. It had to have been provided by somebody else." Carthage (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Anyway, Assad's 'fall' was somewhat on the cards for some time. Syria's economic development has been fairly poor since the 90s and got worse after Saddam fell because it meant Assad couldn't make money off sanctions-busting [a common tactic was to import cut-rate Iraqi oil and use it domestically, so they could then export more Syrian oil at market rates]. By 2015 the Syrian 'economic base' wasn't big enough to support a military strong enough to defeat the rebels, and Russian/Iranian support was pivotal because it gave extra capabilities beyond what they could actually 'afford'. But now Russia and Iran are hurting, and don't have the means to be so generous [Russia appears to have almost exhausted their Soviet-era weapons piles which might explain why we're seeing sixty year old tanks and seventy year old APCs with infantry using century-plus old rifles. if we go back any further we're going to be seeing cavalry and prop fighter planes] while the Syrian economic capacity is a lot smaller due to over a decade of war. This was translated in Syria by actions such as removal of fuel/food subsidies to the population and a partial demobilisation. What kind of regime cuts shit which buys them public support and actual forces during a civil war [admittedly one which had gotten rather stale and cold]? One which no longer has the economic base to support it. The economic stats don't lie: electricity production [from 2010] -80%, gas -60%, oil -90%, wheat -70%, olive oil -75%, cattle -30%, sheep/goats -40%, chicken -65%, water facilities -65%, cotton -85%, soybeans -99%, sunflowers -100%, industrial output -30%. To some extent Syria by 2024 had become 'a backwater third-world country'. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have little belief BRICS will go far - it's at best a 'negative alliance' of NotPoor nations which are pissed at the US/Euro stranglehold on international orgs etc. China has nil interest in making a bloc which doesn't have them in charge, most nations aren't interested in exchanging one boss for another and how the fuck can it work when China and India are firm rivals? Nah, it's just a talking shop. KarmaPolice (talk) 14:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- as an american who holds brazilian citizenship, i don't see brics replacing the dollar anytime soon, either. in fact, speaking as a casual observer with no strong opinions, i think brics is a protest of what they view as western chauvinism (a view not entirely without its merits) at least, and an economic alliance or partnership (albeit a loose one) at most. The G (talk) 05:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Holidays with a Trumper Family[edit]
Going to my parents' place down in Florida for Christmas dinner. Was unable to visit on Thanksgiving due to work constraints. My brother and some extended family will be there too. Sounds fine and dandy except that my entire family are fervent Trump supporters. I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm the only one with my surname who doesn't like that guy. Somehow they never pressed me on my political beliefs yet but it seems they assume that I support Trump as well. It's even worse because growing up, my parents were enthusiastic for Obama and were left-wing on social issues. Now, they eat up every lie that comes out of Trump's flapping mouth (Except for "I have nothing to do with project 2025." They sincerely believe P2025 is a good thing for this country and glad Trump kept it under wraps during his campaign so more people would vote for him. Which goes to show how much Trump supporters value honesty.) Before 2022, my extended family was made up of a mix of political beliefs. There were a few MAGAs before that year but they were in the minority until the tail-end of covid. Now every single person in my family except myself has pledged their support for Trump, ostensibly due to the worldwide inflation that Biden supposedly caused. Those who were left-leaning even went full 180° on their previously held beliefs and became complete reactionaries. I think a lot of them were secretly bigoted, kept their bigotry under wraps, and only came out of their shell when it became fashionable. Bluntly, I am not looking forward to hearing them circlejerking at the dinner table about how great Trump is, how terrible the Dems are, how we will destroy "wokeism", and how great it is that we will supposedly never see another Democrat in the White House ever again because Trump's win is that big. (Not to mention some members of my family actively hope to see elections suspended/Democrats banned from running under Trump's 2nd term.) I'd even go far as to say that during grace, I bet they'll be thanking Trump for "ending inflation and making food affordable again" even though Trump can't make food cheaper and he's not even President yet. I'll just play along as to not spoil the mood, much to my annoyance. Sigh. Its just so sad at this situation, There used to be lots different viewpoints in my family, now it feels like I'm in Jonestown about to drink from a vat of flavor-aid with these people. Sure, it has lead to tension at the holidays & get togethers, but with them all agreeing in unison, no variance in opinion & agreeing on absolutely everything; somehow it feels even worse, unnatural even. I'm not so much looking for advice for dealing with this crap, more like I need a place to vent. If you have tips you're more than welcome to share. I'll maybe leave an update at boxing day to tell you how it goes. JoyousJerboa96 (talk) 04:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Also, you're never going to believe this, but a family can be made up of people of all ages. Woah! mind blown!!! We got boomers, Xers, Millenials, Zoomers, Alphas (who aren't voting age yet) and even a few Silents. Gee its like a family can be made up of multiple generations, and the older generations are succeeded by newer generations. Also also, yes, different generations do use different media sources. The younger ones generally have JRE and X, the older ones use Facebook and watch Fox News. Yes, the right wing media empire can control multiple news sources to target people of different. Isn't that wonderful for you guys to learn about this stuff for the very first time?! JoyousJerboa96 (talk) 15:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
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- I put this on the talk page, but I don't think I'm writing about one person. I understand you came here for advice, and that's not exactly the way to talk to the people here. This site's 'advice' is more 'Declarative statements' to get ripped apart. I disagree with any advice to cut ties with your family, even it is probably impossible to share certain beliefs. It's okay to listen, and try to understand, and totally disagree. It is not important to disagree so vehemently as to ruin a holiday. I would encourage you try to find what is comfortable for you, whether it's arguing, steaming silently, or walking away this year and make a decision for next year. Nobody can tell you how your family will react if you say you disagree with them politically. Maybe politics will barely be brought up. Give them another chance this year, just don't let them use you as a punching bag. Torrent (talk) 05:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Masaru Emoto[edit]
Is he still relevant? I notice from his page he's long dead, but I suspect his weird ideas aren't. Anyway I ask because I was cleaning up and found that I own a copy of 「水は答えを知っている」(water knows the answers) (I probably picked it up in a collection of second hand books, but some poor schmuck paid JPY1600 for this new!) and he's off on a weird adventure within the first page. I was wondering if it's worth taking notes to update his page.
On a flip through, the chapters are typical Japanese new age nonsense (water is the entrance to another dimension!), but the photographic plates, while a little dated-looking, like the dude could have used some free DOF stacking tools if he'd been working just a few years later, are interesting on their own. Namako (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Despite being weirdly kooky, he achieved some level of fame in his life earning the lately dubious distinction of being on the New York Times best seller list for one of his books, The Hidden Messages in Water. Bongolian (talk) 06:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think that might be this book? I've noticed there is some English text on the front, embossed (almost invisibly in my light) into the beautiful cover. It's just a translation from the Japanese, but the subtitle is "the hidden messages in water crystals". Wikipedia doesn't help on this one, but this book is from 2001, so it doesn't mention the bestseller or any translations anywhere. The only other option from his...interesting...bibliography at the end is 「水からの伝言」(1999), which is definitely a title which could not have any other meanings.
- His, uh, school (company?) seems to be going strong. The store is especially exciting. 5G protection doohickeys, including what look like those radioactive credit card things, weird machines of dubious purpose, luck enhancing super water, it's got it all!
- Now I'm in the rabbit hole I guess I'll take some notes and update the page, though probably after Christmas. Namako (talk) 12:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Squirrels Eating Mice[edit]
Apparently it's happening in the one park in California. Research is ongoing on the effects and why. A Youtube video linked in the comments is of a guy detailing instances of predation by animals that typically are herbivorous, with the basic reasoning of resource scarcity and "eat or starve". I found it interesting, but also disturbing; I won't be able to look at squirrels quite the same way again. Impiricism (talk) 02:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Especially in mammals, general herbivores still eat animals. Elephants eat birds nests. Rodents love bones. It's not new, but it is exciting, and you should never trust a human acclimated squirrel. I have lived at an apartment complex where squirrels were fed, and those little fuckers get pushy. Torrent (talk) 06:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Google Search stats for RationalWiki, December explosion of visits[edit]
- Previously: RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive464#Google Search stats for RationalWiki as of early October
Big news in terms of traffic from Google Search. We're above 460K visits the last 28 days now, and it's mostly due to a spike lasting a few days, taking us far above the nowadays-usual level hovering around 180K visits. Back in October, there was a smaller spike that temporarily then-doubled our visits, as lots of people searched for "silicon tree" and related terms. Now it's instead our generally most-visited article, Project Blue Beam, which has received a big blast of visits beyond the usual.
Maybe something to do with the topic went viral on some social media? That's my guess. In any case, lots of people suddenly became interested, bringing 135K visits in one day at the peak day to our article, while the norm is 5-6K visits per day to that article.
Other recent "growing content" in the search stats include: Anna de Buisseret, Project Blue Book, Ray Peat, and Köfels impact event. But all else is dwarfed by Project Blue Beam, including our main page.
Keep in mind, it's always possible that something will become all the rage all of a sudden, even if shortly, sending hundreds of thousands of people searching for this or that conspiracy or other missional topic and looking at RW links. Conspiracy stuff and pages on cranks is at the center of what people search for bringing them to RW. Especially more on newer conspiracy stuff may be key to keeping RW interesting to the broader public ahead -- I think we fell behind on new such during the COVID years, missing out that way. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 06:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Any chance of getting something like a 'top 20' or something like we did last time? Plus, 180k p/m is a reasonable increase; I remember the spell over the summer we were like scraping 50k... KarmaPolice (talk) 10:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
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- Yes, basically, according to a Newsweek [4], Alex Jones and Roseanne Barr amplified the Project Blue Beam conspiracy in relation to the mysterious "drone" rumor mill that is going on in the Northeast US right now.
- (Once that event settles down, that too probably would be a great article. Whatever the initial root cause, judging from the Reddits, it seems like every conspiracy nut is now busy posting ordinary flying machines at night and turning it into ALIENS!!! or something.) BobJohnson (talk) 15:03, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wonder if that's part of the reason for all the frequent trolling in the last few weeks. Or is this a common occurence? -- LunaAHHHHH 16:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Trolling often comes in waves, and when there's a wave of it, often it's just been one person who keeps coming back evading blocks. But it could explain extra activity after Dec 10. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well. That top 20 certainly seems to support the "Something went viral" analysis. Namely, project blue beam. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Trolling often comes in waves, and when there's a wave of it, often it's just been one person who keeps coming back evading blocks. But it could explain extra activity after Dec 10. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Top 20[edit]
As @KarmaPolice requested, a fresh top 20 list. I'll do like last time, so here's top 20 search terms first.
- project blue beam
- rationalwiki
- what is project blue beam
- silicon tree
- rational wiki
- blue beam project
- red room
- giant silicon tree
- darryl anka
- darryl anka wikipedia
- silicon trees wikipedia
- project blue bean
- bashar - wikipedia
- gregg braden wikipedia
- giant silicone tree
- dave farina
- dr eric berg wikipedia
- project blue beam wiki
- last thursdayism
- professor dave
For the pages people end up at:
- Project Blue Beam
- Main Page (Main Page in URL)
- Ancient giant silicon-based tree hypothesis
- Darryl Anka
- Professor Dave
- Main Page (no page in URL)
- Red room
- Eric Berg
- Ray Peat
- Biblical scientific errors
- Last Thursdayism
- National Sunday law
- List of actions prohibited by the Bible
- Examples of God personally killing people
- Gregg Braden
- Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
- Edward Dutton
- Wedge of Aiud
- Shoe0nHead
- Valentina Gomez
--ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks.
- 1/ Could somebody explain to me the differences between 2 and 6 in layperson?
- 2/ Is there any more details on this? I mean, do we know as a % of total Google hits the top 20 are?
- 3/ Is this stats from all versions of Google, not just .com? [WP dashboard for example divides .co.uk, .ca etc].
- 4/ Is there any way we can learn how much of total hits Google directed-hits represent?
- 5/ Using this info, perhaps it's an idea to add a new bit under 'random featured article' - perhaps announcing our three most recent brainstar articles?
- KarmaPolice (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- 1/ Probably the difference between https://rationalwiki.org and https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Nowhere Man (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly, yes. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- 1/ Probably the difference between https://rationalwiki.org and https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Nowhere Man (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- 2/ There's 'clicks' and 'impressions' (i.e. merely appearing in results) for each item. Over 3 months, it looks like this. (The top 20 lists above also take 3 months into account.) For Project Blue Beam, it's at 377,824 and 1,735,385 right now (while the top search term for it is at 304,098 and 1,206,714). For comparison the main rationalwiki.org URL has 28,190 and 58,271. Then (22,406, 173,593), and (21,129, 233,151), and (7,978, 69,833) for the pages after, for the top 5.
- 3/ It's global stats, but there's also a tab for stats on countries, again showing 'clicks' and 'impressions' for each.
- 4/ We'd need accurate stats for hits for starters, to compare. We don't currently have proper stats on RW itself.
- 5/ Maybe. Further discussion welcome, we can see what people are interested in maintaining.
- Also, RW Techs as well as other established RW members who're interested, apart from asking me, you could get access to have a look yourself. It would require your Google account email only, and you'd get a view without the fuller permissions to turn knobs. You can email me if interested. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- With 5/, I was thinking that if we're getting a lot of hits to our mainpage, perhaps it would be an idea to use said mainpage to highlight 'new stuff'. For example, having after the listing of X amount of mainspace articles we have, something along the lines of '... and our latest brainstar article is: X'. Because otherwise, with the exception of 'random featured article' [which is from a small enough pool most of us will know them all off by heart] the page looks static and has looked this way for apparently, all time. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I got the gist. I was thinking you should discuss it with more editors, particularly people who do brainstar reviewing, to have a few on board with the idea and at least rough consensus it's fine to change. I think it's fine, but there should be more than one person to maintain such updates if it's done. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 04:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- With 5/, I was thinking that if we're getting a lot of hits to our mainpage, perhaps it would be an idea to use said mainpage to highlight 'new stuff'. For example, having after the listing of X amount of mainspace articles we have, something along the lines of '... and our latest brainstar article is: X'. Because otherwise, with the exception of 'random featured article' [which is from a small enough pool most of us will know them all off by heart] the page looks static and has looked this way for apparently, all time. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also, RW Techs as well as other established RW members who're interested, apart from asking me, you could get access to have a look yourself. It would require your Google account email only, and you'd get a view without the fuller permissions to turn knobs. You can email me if interested. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if this helps, but I actually found this place while seeking more skeptical coverage of the New Jersey drone fiasco, and eventually landed on pages like Project Blue Beam. ☣🍆☣ (talk) 12:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
some help arguing please[edit]
i wanted to find soemthing to help me disprove this guy’s claim that gay men are more likely to be sexual predators/pedophiles than cis white males and i can’t find anything solid to refute that. they say, and ‘quote’
- 21% of all sexual predators are gay.
- 5.5% of the American population are gay.
- per capita, more gay people are to be sexual predators/rapists.
How do i dismantle this? please? Alastor (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- pulls out napkin, pen and calculator.
- Hmm... 5.5% of Americans are gay'? A '21 Gallup poll says 5.8% of Americans outed themselves as having at least some non-hetro orientation, and another 7.5% refused to answer. So it's possible that the non-straight % is up to 7-8% of the total population.
- The '21% of all sexual predators are gay' I suspect comes from the work of Dr. Gene Abel, who in 1987 produced this figure from what appears to be a meta-study. Let's actually hear what he really said;
- "…[M]ost men who molest little boys are not gay. Only 21 percent of the child molesters we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual. Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were heterosexual or bisexual and most of these men were married and had children of their own."
- Note that Abel didn't study [or at least not in this bit] the statistics of the sexual orientation of those who abused girls. The British NSPCC report from 2024 gives a better picture; 3.5% of men and 11.5% of women reported some form of sexual abuse as a minor. Now, British and American societies are 'similar enough' to allow me to say they're comparable.
- So, out of a randomised sample group of 2000 adult Britons [50/50 sex mix] 150 report being abused as a child - 115 women and 35 men [I'm gonna leave trans folks out of this because they're such a small % of the adult population]. Therefore, if 21% of the males were abused by a gay man, this means 7-8 in our group of abused folks.
- Therefore, 4.6 - 5.3% of the abusers of children are gay men. My stats are too sparse to properly draw conclusions [and I frankly don't care enough to dig them out] but it does hint that the level of child abuser is much more equalised in society orientation-wise than the old 'gays are paedos' panic from the Boys Beware era. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is clearly a case of [citation needed]. It's actually difficult to find data. To add, there's one study from 1992 [5] that suggests a slightly higher propensity (the numbers in this study were 5% of the population were "androphiles" and about 9% of pedophiles were homosexual). It's just one study though, and that difference isn't especially great to make the sort of sweeping conclusions a lot of yer fundamentalist / moral panic type sites make. (The most common error being to conflate male adult to male child pedophilia as homosexual... it is not; from what I gather, much of this lot actually see themselves as heterosexual in everything else!)
- For those who like to make sweeping generalizations and oh noes PANIC ON THE GAYS!, keep in mind that female pedophiles, by stereotype, simply "doesn't exist" (and therefore I am actually having trouble finding studies with the answer to "what percentage of pedophiles are female", other than this link from Australia, which states that 93.9% of child abusers are men.) The data may be poor quality, but I nonetheless suspect that the per capita gap between homosexual pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles is quite a bit lower than the per capita gap between male and female pedophiles. So... oh noes moral panic on all men, I guess? (I think this does actually happen to some extent...)
- Incidentally, the same study suggested that about half of CSA came from either parents/caregivers or other known adults, with another significant chunk coming from known adolescents. Not quite the categories you can easily throw moral panics over, but people will try. BobJohnson (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've looked a little into the 'female paedophile' issue. From what I can tell, the vast majority of 'female paedophiles' [at least in places like the UK] were women who ended up in illegal relationships with a single child [nearly always someone in their mid/late teens] - while the wide majority of male paedophiles go on abusing different children over decades. That the woman maintains interest in the victim even after they're above the age of consent, while most male paedos don't. There's also the issue that I suspect it will go unreported for several reasons - I remember one survivor's tale where he said part of the reason he didn't report her was not just he felt 'nobody would believe me' but also the fact they were attractive, he believed he loved her and she used the 'well you enjoyed it' gaslighting when he did try to question it.
- In another angle, it's quite possible that 'unwanted advances' are more likely to be reported as 'sexual predation' if it's done by the 'wrong' gender. That - for example - if a straight guy got a rather 'strong pass' from a girl he'd simply say no and leave it at that but if it had been a guy doing the very same he'd call it 'predatory behaviour'. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Additionally, the study claims that 21% of pedophiles are gay, rather than 21% of gays are pedophiles, there is a very big difference there! TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 15:12, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- If you're referring to the Abel study, it was 21% of male paedophiles who abused boys. I then used the NSPCC stats which said the ratio of abused girls/boys was roughly 3:1, meaning that if we assume that there wasn't that many gay male abusers of girls [which is a leap which I don't have any stats to back up, I get that] this would put the % of gay male abusers around 7%, which is much closer to the norms where gay men are found in the general population. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
there is an art to arguing with assholes. however, if your time is short, do what i do:
- ask for a source. usually, if it's an absurd claim, then assume it's made up and apply hitchens' razor.
- if you want to waste his time, don't be afraid to grill them and just ask (dumb) questions.
- if you really want to go through the effort of refuting it, just remember that refuting the claim requires an amount of energy that is an order of magnitude higher than what was used to produce it. point out that most rapists and sexual abusers are straight when they aren't molesting people. there's a (rather dangerous) misconception that rapists are sexually attracted to their victims. in fact, most of them attack their victims to overpower and dominate them.
The G (talk) 05:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Request: Mātauranga Māori[edit]
Good morning/afternoon,
I would like to request than an article be made on Mātauranga Māori, the supposed traditional knowledge of New Zealand's indigenous people. The reason is because, as someone living here, there is a debate about putting it in the science curriculum. Although there is a paradigm shift towards the value of indigenous knowledge in mainstream science lately, the problem with Mātauranga Māori is that it is being taught as a supposed alternative to "western" science and promoted as if it is of equal value. Furthermore, just like right-wing American-style creationism, it alludes to "gods" and other forms of spirituality. I myself am a former young-Earth creationist which is why I am concerned, especially with a leaked curriculum draft (not final) from last year that had more emphasis on MM than actual empirical science. some examples are provided below:
I think it is quite clear how Mātauranga Māori is really a pseudoscience. Any thoughts?
Joseph D. Pelobello/Daniel William "Danny" Wilson 19:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Most "traditional knowledge" of certain sorts would be considered protoscience actually.
- I am actually having difficulty finding good sources on this topic that would help me determine exactly what people New Zealand government officials are trying to do, and is it really an issue, or just some a few folks way out in left field who are trying to put some noble savage woo in science curriculum drafts and getting swatted down, or something. Whyevolutionistrue.com is essentially Jerry Coyne's blog and Coyne fits neatly into the New Atheism tendency of becoming crankier over time. If there's better sources documenting some true crankery going on in the New Zealand government on this issue, sure it might be worth an article.
- Personal opinion: I would keep any mentions of protoscience out of any traditional science curriculum, period. It nonetheless is sometimes worth examining traditional cultures and seeing that, hey, maybe they might know something that scientists don't know. There's an entire field called "ethnopharmacology" devoted to re-examining traditional medicine, for instance... because while there is a lot of bullshit in protoscience, every so often those folks hit on something that traditional Western science completely missed. (Tu Youyou won a Nobel for actually doing this, for instance.) BobJohnson (talk) 22:13, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- Body ritual among the Nacirema? 'We do these seemingly random things because 'it appeases the spirits' while it turns out there is some scientific logic to this'. Similar could be said about drinking beer was better than water in Ye Olden Days - because amongst other things the beer would involve boiling water and then repeatedly filtering/draining it before consumption. These actions started fermentation and then to filter out all the dead yeast etc [which they understood] but also helped remove pathogens and water-borne contaminants [which they didn't really]. Some of the old Jewish dietary laws etc can also be seen as this; for example the prohibitions of eating predators or animals you've found dead of non-violent causes. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
- As a minor point, since this comes up a lot, one common misconception about prohibitions on pork is they had something to do with trichinosis; given that the earliest knowledge of trichinosis comes from 1835, and at that point they still had absolutely no idea what caused it despite it being an infectious agent that even ancient people could have identified (seeing as they'd described other types of roundworms), that's hardly likely. It was more likely a cultural identifier, food taboos of that sort are well documented in the ancient world (e.g. Athenians ate a lot less meat out of a sense of superiority to Boeotians). Obviously some food taboos have to do with health issues, it's just that one which probably doesn't. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I partly suspected it was over the fact that pigs seem to eat anything and everything, and thus might consume 'bad things' [like dead stuff]. KarmaPolice (talk) 01:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- As a minor point, since this comes up a lot, one common misconception about prohibitions on pork is they had something to do with trichinosis; given that the earliest knowledge of trichinosis comes from 1835, and at that point they still had absolutely no idea what caused it despite it being an infectious agent that even ancient people could have identified (seeing as they'd described other types of roundworms), that's hardly likely. It was more likely a cultural identifier, food taboos of that sort are well documented in the ancient world (e.g. Athenians ate a lot less meat out of a sense of superiority to Boeotians). Obviously some food taboos have to do with health issues, it's just that one which probably doesn't. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Body ritual among the Nacirema? 'We do these seemingly random things because 'it appeases the spirits' while it turns out there is some scientific logic to this'. Similar could be said about drinking beer was better than water in Ye Olden Days - because amongst other things the beer would involve boiling water and then repeatedly filtering/draining it before consumption. These actions started fermentation and then to filter out all the dead yeast etc [which they understood] but also helped remove pathogens and water-borne contaminants [which they didn't really]. Some of the old Jewish dietary laws etc can also be seen as this; for example the prohibitions of eating predators or animals you've found dead of non-violent causes. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
This topic has been discussed here before. Here's some sources that lean into the "Mauri Matauranga has scientific aspects to it" angle: [6] [7]
Specifically, to quote the second source listed: "Hitherto mostly ignored or disregarded by the science community because it seemed to be myth and legend, fantastic and implausible, mātauranga Māori includes knowledge generated using techniques consistent with the scientific method, but explained according to a Māori world view. Acknowledging this extends the history of scientific endeavour back to when Māori arrived in Aotearoa and Te Wai Pounamu, many centuries ago."
Personally, I think that if one is gonna argue that mātauranga Māori is protoscience, you should also include the work of Renaissance or 17th century scientists as protoscience too. Newton believed in aether, and Kepler was motivated by numerological sentiment. People seem to be making no distinction between methodology and interpretation of results here. Carthage (talk) 03:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- It is not pseudoscience nor protoscience: it's just outdated knowledge. It is not their fault, knowledge becomes outdated very fast. Darwin is outdated, even Einstein is outdated in some aspects. That's the reason I removed the pseudoscience category from our James Ussher article. Newton and Kepler were using the best methodology available to them. Using the Mātauranga Māori methods today is akin to use praxeology to support conclusions in social sciences: It was once ok to use similar methods centuries ago (and it's indeed better than anything). But praxeolofy is not suited for modern research and it's interesting mostly for those who are into history of science and history of thought. Personally, I don't mind having a couple of lessons on their knowledge, but I think it's more suited to history lessons. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 11:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do believe that's the point of including it in the Aotearoa curriculum. Plus, Mātauranga Māori is useful for Maori studies, as was pointed out in that old thread I linked above. Dawkins, Coyne, and co are deliberately conflating methodology with culture more broadly. Mātauranga Māori includes "techniques consistent with the scientific method," but that gets consistently glossed over by people like Dawkins and Coyne, who pretend that people advocating for acknowledging that the history of science in Aeotearoa predates colonization, and that Maori contributions to science are subject to colonial erasure, are really just woomeisters. Carthage (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would certainly be useful from a cultural perspective, and if it actually followed the scientific method as it is currently understood then it would simply be "science". In the same way that an "alternative medicine" technique would actually be "medicine" if it followed medial protocols. But the very fact that Mātauranga wants to put its own name on what it does suggests that it's not "science" as we understand it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Isaac Newton actually did dabble in the "protoscience" of alchemy for several decades. None of this is taught in science classes because none of it is very applicable to modern chemistry. One can certainly find out about Newton's alchemy if one wants -- it's an interesting historical footnote and is well documented. It's just not chemistry.
- As I mentioned, a scientist won a Nobel for looking at traditional Chinese herbal medicine and figuring out that artemisinin (found in sweet wormwood) actually worked well against certain types of malaria. However, to get there, the researchers used science methods to test and isolate the compound that worked best. What would be really bad in my view is, instead of that, someone came around and said "let's replace all this modern medicine with traditional Chinese medicine". These days, such would probably be accompanied by a whole bunch of conspiracy theory woo and/or religion.
- And reading the wiki on this, that's one of the problems here -- Mātauranga Māori is perhaps inseparably entangled with native religion, and one has to elevate non-scientific religious concepts such as their form of vitalism in order to teach Mātauranga Māori. This is also really true of a lot of old school protoscience / primitive science / etc. type things. A lot of the motivation for Isaac Newton's pursuits were theological, but you aren't taught that either when you learn about the theory of gravity -- you don't need to. However, the further you get back into the pre-science days, the more likely it is that some god or spirit or similar concept is involved, as well as some intertwined concepts that would be seen as woo these days. Such may be difficult to untangle.
- I have zero problems teaching Mātauranga Māori as history and culture, and as an untapped source of knowledge too. BobJohnson (talk) 18:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since "Mātauranga Māori includes knowledge generated using techniques consistent with the scientific method," I don't see the problem with including it in the history of science in and of Aotearoa. "Techniques consistent with the scientific method" is literally just the scientific method. The worldview is not secular, sure, but neither was Newton's or Kepler's. You can just as much extract the results of Whakaotirangi's experimental agricultural work from the broader Maori worldview as you can extract the results of Newton's work in physics from 17th century British Christianity. Carthage (talk) 02:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't doubt that creation science would also describe itself as using "techniques consistent with the scientific method". It's also quite socially relevant to certain Christian groups. But neither is a reason to put creation science on a par with actual science.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- And in what way is the experimental work of Whakaotirangi that adapted tropical Polynesian crops to the temperate climate of Aotearoa in anyway equivalent to "creation science"? And why shouldn't this work be acknowledged as relevant to the history of science in Aotearoa? The Royal Society of New Zealand certainly has recognized it as such. Carthage (talk) 07:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- As I said previously "It would certainly be useful from a cultural perspective". My objection is to teaching the whole thing as "science".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it depends what you mean by "science". If we want to classify something as being "currently scientific" then sure, we should restrict that to our current theories and models that maximize explanatory coherence between our models and observations. More so, we should restrict that set to only those that do that coherency work, and at the very least are claimed to be scientific by most of those who promote the model/theory. In that case, it is not actually all that evident that the Māori themselves would by and large insist on the Mātauranga Māori worrldview as being "science" on the whole -- and arguably never really had. But the history of science streches farther back than the term "science" being used as a name for a discipline. Of the history of science books I read, everything from ancient Indian mathematics, various metalurgy practices cross various cultures, the Chinese invention of paper, and the use of water wheels in medieval europe gets described as part of the "history of science" because at the very least these practices in the attempt to model and describe the natural world, and develop technology, were necessary precursors to what would eventually develop into "science" as we know it. The various way that polynesian people engaged in similar practices seems relevant and worth including as part of that history. That history has no pretext or presupposition on a secular worldview. In fact, it is not even evident that contemporarily, science essentially involves any ontological commitment to naturalism. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 08:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- By "science" I mean a process which follows the scientific method as it is currently understood.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it depends what you mean by "science". If we want to classify something as being "currently scientific" then sure, we should restrict that to our current theories and models that maximize explanatory coherence between our models and observations. More so, we should restrict that set to only those that do that coherency work, and at the very least are claimed to be scientific by most of those who promote the model/theory. In that case, it is not actually all that evident that the Māori themselves would by and large insist on the Mātauranga Māori worrldview as being "science" on the whole -- and arguably never really had. But the history of science streches farther back than the term "science" being used as a name for a discipline. Of the history of science books I read, everything from ancient Indian mathematics, various metalurgy practices cross various cultures, the Chinese invention of paper, and the use of water wheels in medieval europe gets described as part of the "history of science" because at the very least these practices in the attempt to model and describe the natural world, and develop technology, were necessary precursors to what would eventually develop into "science" as we know it. The various way that polynesian people engaged in similar practices seems relevant and worth including as part of that history. That history has no pretext or presupposition on a secular worldview. In fact, it is not even evident that contemporarily, science essentially involves any ontological commitment to naturalism. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 08:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- As I said previously "It would certainly be useful from a cultural perspective". My objection is to teaching the whole thing as "science".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- And in what way is the experimental work of Whakaotirangi that adapted tropical Polynesian crops to the temperate climate of Aotearoa in anyway equivalent to "creation science"? And why shouldn't this work be acknowledged as relevant to the history of science in Aotearoa? The Royal Society of New Zealand certainly has recognized it as such. Carthage (talk) 07:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't doubt that creation science would also describe itself as using "techniques consistent with the scientific method". It's also quite socially relevant to certain Christian groups. But neither is a reason to put creation science on a par with actual science.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Since "Mātauranga Māori includes knowledge generated using techniques consistent with the scientific method," I don't see the problem with including it in the history of science in and of Aotearoa. "Techniques consistent with the scientific method" is literally just the scientific method. The worldview is not secular, sure, but neither was Newton's or Kepler's. You can just as much extract the results of Whakaotirangi's experimental agricultural work from the broader Maori worldview as you can extract the results of Newton's work in physics from 17th century British Christianity. Carthage (talk) 02:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would certainly be useful from a cultural perspective, and if it actually followed the scientific method as it is currently understood then it would simply be "science". In the same way that an "alternative medicine" technique would actually be "medicine" if it followed medial protocols. But the very fact that Mātauranga wants to put its own name on what it does suggests that it's not "science" as we understand it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- I do believe that's the point of including it in the Aotearoa curriculum. Plus, Mātauranga Māori is useful for Maori studies, as was pointed out in that old thread I linked above. Dawkins, Coyne, and co are deliberately conflating methodology with culture more broadly. Mātauranga Māori includes "techniques consistent with the scientific method," but that gets consistently glossed over by people like Dawkins and Coyne, who pretend that people advocating for acknowledging that the history of science in Aeotearoa predates colonization, and that Maori contributions to science are subject to colonial erasure, are really just woomeisters. Carthage (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
@GeeJayK That's a distinction without a difference. To be any kind of knowledge it would have to have been true, which we know now many aspects of Newtonian mechanics is not true. Neither is a large amount of Keplar. I would assert that for their time (at least for Newton anyway) it was science because their theories at the time outperformed the explanatory coherence of their competitors between theory and the set of all relevant observations. There is no comparison to praxeology really, because praxeology itself rejected empiricism. Whether or not it is wise to use "Mātauranga Māori" methods, depends on what specific methods we are referring to and for what exactly. I don't think there is any real assessment to speak to the quality of a methodology without reference to its actual content, and what can be empirically established about it. Otherwise, you are just making an assertion without evidence. What are we talking about exactly when we refer to such "methods"? Recall a "method" is about the actual act of experimenting, how we record observations, measure outcomes, or analyze our recorded data, etc. Whatever the cultural context that is occurring within is sort of irrelevant, or at the very least it should be irrelevant if our interest is only to judge it on its scientific merits. That requires us to know what the goals are, and whether or not the methods satisfy said goals. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 08:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- From what I remember, the science classes I had did not really dwell very much on "the history of invention", except maybe as footnotes on occasion. To use the Whakaotirangi example: Selective breeding was not really integrated scientifically (in the modern sense) until the late 1700s (the Google at least points to Robert Bakewell for this). Selective breeding (and related domestication efforts), however, was practiced for eons before that, by a wide variety of cultures (including non-Western ones; we can think natives in the Americas for the modern maize crop, for instance). This history is, of course, related to modern science, and I do remember things like museum displays with history-of-invention type displays. But science classes from what I remember tend to focus on current knowledge, methodology, and experiments within thus. I can see why; aside from the mysticism problems I mentioned earlier, a lot of ancient knowledge simply doesn't exists, or exists with a lot of gaps on the details. With the Whakaotirangi oral tradition, for instance, all I have Googled so far has little details on the hows, something unsurprising considering the age of the domestication and the nature of oral traditions. Much of Newtonian physics, in contrast, is still taught because, even though it's "not quite correct" for everything, it is "good enough" for a lot and thus still very useful in the modern age. (In contrast, something which has been completely supplanted, like aether theories, is also only mentioned as a footnote if at all.)
- I think in some respects this is an argument about labeling and course focus more than the actual content. I certainly don't want to promote situations like this where a certain little extremist Wiki operator insisted that maize was invented in Germany due to reasons. So it's not saying "we shouldn't teach this", it's more a question of where to put the material I suppose. It seems more "history" then "science" to me, but it certainly shouldn't be ignored. BobJohnson (talk) 18:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think we are mostly in agreement here, and you are not wrong when stating that science classes don’t typically go into deep dives around the history of science. Though I own a number of high school chemistry textbooks, and it is notable that a number of notable historical experiments do get covered (Rutherford’s gold foil experiment for example). Some philosophers of science have argued that neglecting the historical element is to the detriment of science classes, especially physics, though don’t know it there is any data to genuinely support that.
- From what I understand from Rebecca Watson is that in the Maori case there isn’t an intention to introduce creation stories into the science class, but to provide a cultural acknowledgement to how science has been used to oppress the Maori people (which we have to admit is true), but the practice of science is not unique to european settlers, but a tool used by the Maori people themselves. I think this is something we may want to encourage, especially to combat any alienation that indigenous people might experience with respect to science. We don’t to encourage this idea of science as a purely European institution that has by and large been used as a means to facilitate the cultural erasure of indigenous people. This will only help fuel anti-science sentiments, and produce demographics that woo-meisters will be willing to exploit. We seen this already with RFK’s using the Tuskegee syphillis study as a means to exploit black Americans to becoming anti-vaxxers. If we don’t support an inclusive view of science this may be a detriment for our aims, though I don’t the aim of inclusivity has to be mutually exclusive to having a strict demarcation from pseudoscience (something I focused on in my master’s research, so I am definitely not hostile to that). - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Request for help[edit]
RE: Metric system
Need help for someone to write the US and Canada paras of this article. There's also a hole which a 'Metrication in the United States' page would sit. I'm trying to push this article into Brainstar quality. KarmaPolice (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Are you fishing for engagement from us freeloaders? ;)
- I probably can write a small bit for Canada... want it under the customary units section or? Did some quick searches, and I thought this 2017 Angus Reid report on Canadian usage was spot on. Impiricism (talk) 15:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- More finding a couple of folks who know the topic in the representative countries better than I. The best I would be able to do would just paraphrase what the relevant WP pages said. I've done the heavy lifting in the other sections which I felt needed to be done already, though it wouldn't hurt in someone doing a bit of 'prettification' on it either. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be pretty much paraphrasing articles from other websites myself. Most Canadians who lived during the transition from Imperial to Metric are in retirement or dead by now. Impiricism (talk) 04:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yet Canada is - like the UK - a country which appears to be at a 'not quite there yet' stage. Plus, was Canada Imperial or 'US customary'? What about US imports in pounds etc? Is there any particular 'holdouts'? This is one of those things which either a) a foreigner could spend a ton of time researching or b) a local could whip up from the stuff already in their head. KarmaPolice (talk) 05:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be pretty much paraphrasing articles from other websites myself. Most Canadians who lived during the transition from Imperial to Metric are in retirement or dead by now. Impiricism (talk) 04:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- More finding a couple of folks who know the topic in the representative countries better than I. The best I would be able to do would just paraphrase what the relevant WP pages said. I've done the heavy lifting in the other sections which I felt needed to be done already, though it wouldn't hurt in someone doing a bit of 'prettification' on it either. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Novel idea inspired off the Resistance video game[edit]
“”Sasha Angelovski raised her hunting rifle; the target was in her sight. Her aim was righteous and true. She slipped her finger into the trigger guard. All of Sasha’s thoughts were related to the target. With a squeeze of the finger Sasha fired the rifle; the deer in the scope of fire was dead. It was a perfect shot to the heart. Sasha loaded the second round and focused her scope on another deer. The second round got the next deer in the spine, killing it within seconds.
Her dad clapped his hands and said, “Sasha my boy, you did excellent. Your training is paying off”. Sasha got up off the ground, she adjusted her hat as she replied, “I wish that I could have got a second heart shot”. Sasha’s Dad stated, “Don’t be hard on yourself. That spinal shot was impressive”. Her dad grabbed a beer for himself and a root beer for Sasha from the cooler. The dad tossed Sasha the can and she catched it with ease. “So dad, have you heard about the information blackout in Taiwan” asked Sasha. Her dad responded, “I have not been paying too much attention to the news recently so no, I have not”. Sasha stated, “I heard about it on my radio and at school. Nobody knows what is going on over there”. Her father pondered it for a moment and said, “I will have to check the news then”. He smiled as he finished with, “Let’s get some lunch. I could go for a chicken sandwich”. Sasha followed her dad inside the house casually. Inside she saw her dad making himself a chicken sandwich with leftovers from yesterday’s dinner. She was in the mood for a peanut butter sandwich. Sasha grabbed the peanut butter and bread for her sandwich. Once she finished Sasha went into the living room and turned on the TV. The TV only shows static. Her dad said, “Adjust the antenna”. Sasha set her sandwich on the stand next to the couch so she could do her work. Moving the antenna Sasha got a signal; it was on a news channel. “As you all are likely aware of, there has been a communications blackout following a meteorite impact in Taiwan. Attempts at reaching the Taiwanese government have failed. There are confirmed reports of detachments of People’s Liberation Army detachments landing in Taiwan. The Chinese government has not commented on the situation. The White House has been silent on the issue as well” said the news anchor. Sasha and her dad paid close attention to the television screen. Both of them were engrossed in the report. The news anchor continued, “There has been speculation pertaining to the information blackout. Some include a national power outage, military coup or a terrorist attack on infrastructure. We want to stress that there is no confirmed cause behind the event”. Sasha wondered what was going on. She ignored her sandwich as the news anchor talked. Then the news went to the next story, which was just as intriguing as the first story. Sasha heard the anchor say, “Our next story is reports of unidentified flying objects coming in from the People’s Republic of China, the Soviet Union, the Socialist Republic of Romania, the People’s Republic of Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Israel, Cyprus and Egypt. Radar tracking stations picked up these objects for a few seconds before disappearing. No government officials have commented on this as of yet”. Sasha’s eyes were glued to the black and white television screen. Her focus was so intense that she did not hear her dad talk. “Hey Sasha, did you hear me?” asked Sasha’s father. She turned her head and asked, “What?” Her dad said, “Since you finished your lunch, you got to study for your Algebra test tomorrow. You can listen to the radio while you work”. Sasha got up and nodded. She went upstairs to her room to study. That Algebra test would be a challenge so Sasha wanted to be prepared. In her room Sasha turned on the radio to a rock station. However, no music played; instead there was a news report. The radio host said, voice trembling, “Ladies and gentlemen, we are getting reports out of the People’s Republic of China that are disturbing in nature. These reports are confirmed from multiple sources- mainland China is under attack from Taiwan or more accurately, an unknown enemy coming in from Taiwan. In addition, several Chinese cities are now devoid of people. We don’t know why but it is believed that the populations are dead”. Sasha was interested in the news; she was distracted from studying. The radio host continued, “This just in, the United States government has placed the military on high alert. There is no official statement from the White House as of yet; however an official statement will be released later this afternoon. In possibly related news, more sightings of unidentified flying objects have come in from South Africa, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Columbia and Mexico. Information is sporadic at this time and no explanation as of yet. We will go to commercials now”. |
I am experimenting with story ideas right now. I probably sound annoying by now. I need feedback. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- A few issues with past- and present-tense. Dialogue between father and daughter still sounds unnatural. Some typos and grammar issues here and there. I’m also not a fan of having the characters just sit around and listen to the news. It’s more interesting if the events actually impact their lives, and then they start getting the context for what’s going on. Overall an improvement from the last bit you posted, though. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 18:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- @DuceMoosolini How could I improve the dialog? I am open to suggestions. --Trans Fem Agenda 19:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Here's a few tips:
- People rarely just come out and say what they actually think, and characters shouldn't either. This one wasn't a major problem in the above segment, but I've seen it from you before. No character should ever say something like "I am angry with you!" It's more effective to show the emotion through their actions. Instead of "I'm angry with you!" you should do something like having your character shout "What the hell is wrong with you?" and then slam the table. Or maybe you could have a character be bitterly sarcastic, or have them just not engage in conversation at all.
- People rarely use more words than they have to in normal conversation. There are a few examples in the above segment you posted. Something like "I wish that I could have got a second heart shot" should be more like "I wish I got off that second heart shot." Or this bit: "“I have not been paying too much attention to the news recently so no, I have not." You don't even need dialogue for this one. Just have him shrug dismissively; it says everything you need to know about him.
- There should be conflict, and it should be expressed through subtext. There's clearly an underlying issue happening: her father misgendered her. This conversation between them should be much less normal as a result. Have long silences and terse answers from Sasha. Show us that something serious is bothering her. Maybe have her father try to have a regular light-hearted conversation at first, and then have him sigh and go into an "if you're going to be like this"-type attitude. In dialogue, what is not said is frequently more interesting than what is said. Dialogue should also always feature conflict (even if trivial); that's usually the reason it's there.
- Introduce exposition more naturally. "So dad, have you heard about the information blackout in Taiwan" gets plunked into the conversation with no warning or prompting. If you were having a face-to-face conversation with someone, and they just pivoted out of the blue to a seemingly-random current-events topic, you'd think they were a bit weird and not in a good way. I think in this instance there's a way to make the awkwardness work for you. Maybe Sasha's father directly tries to confront her about why she's so sullen (maybe even trying to bring up her transness) and she pivots as a desperate attempt to deflect: "It's not that, dad. I guess I'm just preoccupied by all that crazy shit that's happening in Taiwan." (Although really, you should cut out the news bit and have the crazy shit arrive on their doorstep).
- Anyways, I hope this helps. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 01:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also, I just thought of this, @Rationalzombie94. If you want to read a good (and short) example of dialogue with effective subtext, here's Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants. I'll spill the beans on it now: it's about an older man trying to pressure his younger mistress to have an abortion. But the genius thing is that he never says the word "abortion," and he fervently denies that he's pressuring her to do anything. It's all communicated to you through subtext. Hemingway's story is about the conversation they're deliberately not having. If you borrow some of Hemingway's tricks and use them even half as effectively, you'll be writing damn good dialogue. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 01:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I had barely remembered that as Hemingway or 'Hills' but I did remember the story. Took a quick look, (PDF is safe as long as it reads jerrywbrowndotcomslashwp-contentslashuploadsslash2020slash02slashHills-Like-White-Elephants-Hemingway-Ernest dotpdf and nothing else but man, that's a BIG leap of trust to click that link) and I really remembered the line 'It's just to let the air in.' Raymond Carver also has some awesome dialogue in short stories. Here's a leap of thought. Several short stories within the universe. The epic comes after you find and understand the tone of the world. Allies, enemies, weirdos, cowards, and preppers. All dealing with the same. Not one has to survive a day, but each has to try to experience what is happening. Torrent (talk) 04:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I had barely remembered that as Hemingway or 'Hills' but I did remember the story. Took a quick look, (PDF is safe as long as it reads jerrywbrowndotcomslashwp-contentslashuploadsslash2020slash02slashHills-Like-White-Elephants-Hemingway-Ernest dotpdf and nothing else but man, that's a BIG leap of trust to click that link) and I really remembered the line 'It's just to let the air in.' Raymond Carver also has some awesome dialogue in short stories. Here's a leap of thought. Several short stories within the universe. The epic comes after you find and understand the tone of the world. Allies, enemies, weirdos, cowards, and preppers. All dealing with the same. Not one has to survive a day, but each has to try to experience what is happening. Torrent (talk) 04:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Also, I just thought of this, @Rationalzombie94. If you want to read a good (and short) example of dialogue with effective subtext, here's Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants. I'll spill the beans on it now: it's about an older man trying to pressure his younger mistress to have an abortion. But the genius thing is that he never says the word "abortion," and he fervently denies that he's pressuring her to do anything. It's all communicated to you through subtext. Hemingway's story is about the conversation they're deliberately not having. If you borrow some of Hemingway's tricks and use them even half as effectively, you'll be writing damn good dialogue. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 01:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Here's a few tips:
- @DuceMoosolini How could I improve the dialog? I am open to suggestions. --Trans Fem Agenda 19:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
“”Today sucked. Fall is always cold, but today sucked especially. Lars was tired, tired of all the mornings that were cold, tired of all the days that were too short and nights that promised nothing but tomorrow. It was supposed to be his day off, and he was supposed to enjoy it. Lars wanted out, but not out into the cold air, just out. Not into his bed, but not out of his bed, just out. Today sucked, and despite it being cold, Lars got out of bed.
Yesterday sucked, too. Not like today was going to suck, but yesterday really sucked. He didn't think to look up as he lurched over his bathroom sink. It was routine. Lars pushed his thumb into the tube, thinking 'who fucking cares?' and it all came out, a squishy paste flavored with mint. This was supposed to keep life easy, a day off and a mint scrub, self applied. That was fine. Breakfast was the second best moment today for Lars. He Loathed that it was time to go out. turned his burner on, cracked a couple of eggs and loathed having to go grocery shopping today. But it was not time for loathing, it was time to keep everything in rhythm. Rice in the cooker, steam starts pouring, bacon in the pan, fat starts buckling, paper towel, paper towel, quick scramble on the eggs with butter. This time was close to perfect and the second best moment of today. Lars put off his trip to the grocery store by an hour, thinking about how he almost perfected his breakfast. He would have it right tomorrow, he decided, then changed his mind and would have it more right tomorrow. Another hour passed and it had to be now, it couldn't be later, but now everyone was going to be shopping. Today sucked. Lars groaned, he didn't want out but he needed to, he didn't want to go, but he knew exactly how it would happen, so he left and went, a little angry at the world and a little cold. He probably should have worn his coat, the autumn sun lies about how warm it wants to be. Through the aisles it went exactly as expected. Every item Lars was thinking about, it seemed somebody was standing in front of, contemplating. As if it were an actual decision. This made today suck especially for Lars, but it was to be expected. Weaving from item to item, Lars was not bad at putting up with impediment, he could circle back to the eggs or the butter, it would only take him a second to grab what he knew he wanted on those shelves. But then came the lines. The lines weren't that bad, Lars could look back at how well he'd done navigating the store until he met the teller, who was undoubtedly having less fun than Lars. It wasn't hard to imagine how a little smile and thank you might brighten the checker's day, and that was the best part of Lars' day. After that, there were screams. Then the pushing and grabbing and biting started. Nobody helped. Lars Stumbled backwards against the carts behind him, each giving way randomly in their uneven load and unsteady wheels until he was on the floor with a wall of overly contemplated would-be purchases behind him. The worst part about today, for Lars, was that they started at his feet. Today sucked |
Scene Torrent (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC) This is all helpful. --Trans Fem Agenda 11:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- This is from the first chapter-
“”Sasha Angelovski raised her hunting rifle; the target was in her sight. Her aim was righteous and true. She slipped her finger into the trigger guard. All of Sasha’s thoughts were related to the target. With a squeeze of the finger Sasha fired the rifle; the deer in the scope of fire was dead. It was a perfect shot to the heart. Sasha loaded the second round and focused her scope on another deer. The second round got the next deer in the spine, killing it within seconds.
Her dad, Ivan Angelovski, sighed, “Your second shot was not very good. What is going on son”? Sasha sighed, “I have been preoccupied with the news recently. There was a meteorite impact in Taiwan and suddenly there is no information coming from the island now”. Ivan replied in annoyance, “We do not need to worry about it. The impact did not take place in our country”. Sasha went to talk but she was interrupted, “Enough, let's grab the deer and take them to the processing plant. Focus on hunting for food so we can eat this winter”. Ivan got into his truck and drove up to the deer carcasses. He got out and went to help Sasha load the deer into the truck bed. Both deer were extremely heavy but the task got done. Sasha and Ivan got in the truck so they could head to the processing plant. Turning on the radio Sasha heard a news broadcast. This broadcast was incredibly disturbing. The news shook Sasha down to her soul. The radio host said, “We are interrupting normal programming for an emergency news bulletin. Scientists with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in conjunction with North American Aerospace Defense Command have discovered a meteor on a collision course with Earth. Calculations indicate that the meteor will impact Calgary in the Province of Alberta by tomorrow at 4 PM Central Time. Emergency Management officials are urging civilians to evacuate immediately. Do not wait. The impact will almost certainly destroy the city”. Ivan told Sasha, “It looks like we will not be heading to the processing plant. We will go home, call your Aunt Pauline and we will go into her bomb shelter”. Sasha was absolutely terrified by the news, she was not ready to die. She continued to listen to the news. The radio host continued, “If you are outside the impact area, seek shelter underground immediately. Gather enough essential supplies to last at least fourteen days. Do not leave your shelter until rescue workers reach you. The city of Calgary and everything within a one hundred miles radius are under martial law. Police have been authorized to use deadly force against looters and rioters. Please follow the law”. Ivan said, “Don’t worry, we will be safe”. Ivan pulled the truck into the driveway on his property. He and Sasha went inside the house. Ivan told Sasha, “I need you to collect food from the pantry while I call my sister”. She responded, “Alright dad, I got it”. She went down into the basement to get food from the pantry. Sasha grabbed a big box and loaded canned goods into it. Panic gripped Sasha like a fist; it felt like she was being squeezed. In her panic Sasha accidentally dropped a jar of canned brussel sprouts. The mason jar shattered and its contents were all over the floor. Ivan shouted from upstairs, “What was that”?! Sasha replied, “I dropped a jar of brussel sprouts”! Ivan came down into the basement where he saw the mess. He was not happy as he stated, “Be more careful. We will have to ration our food”. Sasha started to cry but her dad said, “No tears. Finish getting the food and I will fill up some water jugs”. Once the first box was filled Sasha began to put food in another box. Sasha emptied much of the pantry into two big boxes. She stacked both boxes and carried them upstairs. Ivan met Sasha at the stair landing; the look on his face showed relief. He told Sasha, “My sister said that we could stay in her bomb shelter. It will be a three hour drive but we will be safe. Now put the boxes in the truck. Once you are done, I advise that you go to the bathroom as we will not be stopping”. Sasha said, “Alright dad”. Outside the house Sasha noticed a guy standing in the driveway. She recognized him as her neighbor George Johnson. He was holding a meat cleaver; he had a look of desperation on his aged face. Sasha had a very bad feeling about this. George slowly approached with hostile intent. Her instinct told her to go back inside but fear froze Sasha in place. She could not speak. Sasha thought that she would die. George sprinted towards Sasha. Sasha heard a loud boom coming from the front porch. Her dad fired a warning shot from his shotgun. Ivan shouted, “Get the fuck out of here or I will paint the grass pink with your brains”! George retorted, “I need your truck!" Ivan shouted back, “You don’t threaten my son ever! Now get out now”! Ivan fired a second warning shot; George ran away. Sasha was unable to move due to the fear she felt. Ivan asked Sasha, “Are you okay”? Ivan set down the shotgun and grabbed the boxes from Sasha. He placed them in the truck next to the deer that were shot earlier. Ivan walked up to Sasha and hugged her. He asked her, “Are you okay? He didn’t hurt, did he”? Sasha responded finally, her voice trembling, “I am just shaken up a little”. Ivan responded, “As long as you are okay, that is all that matters. Just relax. I will get the water jugs and we can get out of here”. Coming out of the house, Ivan carried some jugs of water to the truck. Sasha helped her dad put the jugs in the truck bed. Ivan and Sasha got in the truck. Ivan backed the truck up and pulled out into the street. Putting the truck into drive, Ivan drove down the street at a fast but steady pace. Being ten miles out from Calgary, they were in the danger zone. Sasha looked up at the sky and she could see the meteor. Tomorrow it will impact the Earth. A lot of people would die; many more would be homeless. Disaster was coming. Little did anyone know, the meteor would not be the true disaster. It would be something far worse. |
My second attempt. I am trying to build anticipation of the upcoming alien invasion. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Okay, something is not working. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think right now,what you are writing is either playwriting or screenwriting. Which is some of may favorite. Tennessee Williams is amazing at bare bones setting and awesome dialogue. i don't know why things aren't working, but you can't just rip a style. The storytelling of 'Today sucks especially' was a subversion of the idea that every day sucks. It's not some cheat code. i don't edit anything but myself. but rather than ripping me off, maybe build a universe that you're less afraid of sharing. Torrent (talk) 04:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think right now,what you are writing is either playwriting or screenwriting. Which is some of may favorite. Tennessee Williams is amazing at bare bones setting and awesome dialogue. i don't know why things aren't working, but you can't just rip a style. The storytelling of 'Today sucks especially' was a subversion of the idea that every day sucks. It's not some cheat code. i don't edit anything but myself. but rather than ripping me off, maybe build a universe that you're less afraid of sharing. Torrent (talk) 04:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
“” Again with this horsehsit, Irena slammed her back into the wall, which didn't really jolt her as much as she knew it needed to. She was falling asleep.
"Why do you feel like you have to keep your guard up?" "Because I can't let people die, it's not a feeling" "But you're not in danger here, can we agree on that?" Irena's legs shot forward, slamming her back against the wall again. Through teary eyes she squinted at the door. There hadn't been a knock, no short in the barricade. It wasn't the first floor, and she was so tired. But then there was no room to be tired. If it was just her, maybe. But it wasn't, it was her and those kids. Mikey and Braylyn. And her dog, Max, running around in the backyard. But Max wouldn't listen, and the fence fell down and then the neighbor's dogs came running in, and the fence fell down again and Irena's legs shot forward and her finger pointed directly at the door. The barricade was okay. She hadn't fired any rounds. "Are you going to live the rest of your life on guard? Is this forever?" "No... I don't know." Irena shoved the pillow out from under her, "Shit's tough all over" "Is this forever?" "It can't be. I know that, I'm not stupid." "So, why do you think you need to do it?" Irena pushed herself to the window, one leg as a sled, the other straight back to stay low, out of sight. Below, husks and shadows swayed and lumbered, sparked and crackled, like walking Christmas trees. As much as she blinked, the sparks wouldn't get any dimmer. There was nothing coming, no Santa. If there was one other person who could man the watch. Irena kicked herself back to the wall, slamming into it. If there was one other person who knew what they were doing and didn't just need her help. Then maybe she wouldn't have to do this forever. But Rex still wouldn't listen, he just started up running with the neighbor dogs again. |
Torrent (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Quick question[edit]
I've been wondering if my signature is too edgy for this Wiki. You know, I thought of my name and found it as funny as it was descriptive, and only then did I think of this signature, which elaborates on the first joke. I don't wanna be perceived as a troll here, so I'll change it if you deem it necessary. ☣🍆☣ (talk) 21:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- There is a guy here who literally named himself after Mussolini. I think you're fine. Carthage (talk) 21:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hey now, I didn't name myself after Mussolini. I named myself after a joke from my high school history teacher. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 01:46, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
What fallacy is this called?[edit]
There's the old excuse for doing horrible shit: "If I didn't do it, somebody else would have." I know this is fallacious, but I don't exactly know what fallacy it is. Carthage (talk) 02:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- That’s the “Fat Guy In Israel” fallacy. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 03:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Close to a child's argument that I heard, which is 'nobody told me not to.' The fallacy in that, an action must be limited by explicit rules in order to incur consequences. 'If I didn't do it' is fallacious as an excuse because the consequence should still be the same. Something about 'appeal to consequences' and 'just-world fallacy' I think kinda encompass the 'I just did what we're all thinking of doing' argument, which is diffusion of responsibility. In the end, I don't know. It's always on a scale, 'did I take the last piece of cake?'or 'Did I scam millions of dollars?' But Appeal to Consequence kinda looks right if you squint. Somebody woulda done it, and everybody else gets away with it, so why not me? Diffusion of responsibility and Appeal to Consequence. Torrent (talk) 04:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's also similar to the selective prosecution defense in law, which in the United States is almost never successful. Bongolian (talk) 05:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- To some extent, it could be seen as psychological projection; an inability to visualise that anyone could be more moral/principled/honest than they acted in the situation. It may also be an unconscious attempt to mount a 'reasonable person' defence of their action(s). KarmaPolice (talk) 07:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think I have seen that described as "appeal to inevitability" or "inevitability fallacy".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Whataboutism, maybe? I've heard that sort of argument before, usually by assholes who act like everyone is as horrible as they are. IntrepidSkeptic (talk) 00:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- The two are related, but have slightly different usages. Whataboutism is more about deflection, whereas this fallacy is more of a pre-emptive assertion of reasonability. It doesn't deflect, it acknowledges a wrong was done, and then justifies itself by its claim to inevitability and reasonability. Carthage (talk) 01:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Whataboutism, maybe? I've heard that sort of argument before, usually by assholes who act like everyone is as horrible as they are. IntrepidSkeptic (talk) 00:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think I have seen that described as "appeal to inevitability" or "inevitability fallacy".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- To some extent, it could be seen as psychological projection; an inability to visualise that anyone could be more moral/principled/honest than they acted in the situation. It may also be an unconscious attempt to mount a 'reasonable person' defence of their action(s). KarmaPolice (talk) 07:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's also similar to the selective prosecution defense in law, which in the United States is almost never successful. Bongolian (talk) 05:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Close to a child's argument that I heard, which is 'nobody told me not to.' The fallacy in that, an action must be limited by explicit rules in order to incur consequences. 'If I didn't do it' is fallacious as an excuse because the consequence should still be the same. Something about 'appeal to consequences' and 'just-world fallacy' I think kinda encompass the 'I just did what we're all thinking of doing' argument, which is diffusion of responsibility. In the end, I don't know. It's always on a scale, 'did I take the last piece of cake?'or 'Did I scam millions of dollars?' But Appeal to Consequence kinda looks right if you squint. Somebody woulda done it, and everybody else gets away with it, so why not me? Diffusion of responsibility and Appeal to Consequence. Torrent (talk) 04:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I don’t think the fallacy has a name, but it would be classified as an informal fallacy — possiblly a variation of the appeal to hypocrisy (aka Tu Quoque). I may call it “appeal to preferred culpability” or something. The fallacy of assuming that someone else may do something it justifies oneself doing it. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 04:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
On rumors of a christmas fandom attack[edit]
I have heard rumors of an group of some kind planning to spam gore on social media on the 25th. Could someone confirm or deny this? I have no idea if it is true. Koafox (talk) 16:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Who are they supposed to be and what is their rumored objective?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Get the Dead Dove responses ready. Anna Livia (talk) 17:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm placing my bets that it will be an absolute nothingburger of an event, similar to the yearly pridefall. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 18:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- A: 'So, we attack at Christmas Day, yes?'
- B: 'Of course. Those woke libruls of RW won't be around to stop us!'
- A: 'Ah. They'll have other, better things to do than hang about a wiki?'
- B: 'If it can be called 'a wiki'.'
- A: 'So... the people doing the attacking... have nothing else better to do on Christmas Day?'
- KarmaPolice (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- The best Socratic dialogue since Plato. LongStylus (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm placing my bets that it will be an absolute nothingburger of an event, similar to the yearly pridefall. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 18:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Get the Dead Dove responses ready. Anna Livia (talk) 17:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Biden withdraws plans for student loan forgiveness for over 30 million Americans[edit]
Biden is no longer going to give student loan forgiveness for over 30 million Americans.[8] To be fair, this is most likely not Biden's fault; he's doing this to prevent Trump from messing around with the plans to hurt borrowers. Trump is officially hurting over 30 million people before even taking the oath of office. LongStylus (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)