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Welcome, BoN
This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
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Pointless poll

Which Russian Republic would be most likely to split from the federation?




Tartarstan (not tartar sauce)



North Ossetia-Alania



Crimea (Reclaimed by Ukraine)















Republic of Goat (Is not a Russian Republic RZ94)



RationalWiki People's Republic (Doesn't exist)



Should Homeopathy be Illegal?







On Planet X, Homeopathy is the Capitol city of a country called Homeovania. Very well known for its Pickles, Windmills, a soda called Valley Pure & Hi-Fi Sound Systems



What is your favourite fantasy neo-conservative/fascist wet dream?

Margaret Thatcher waxing Mousseline's moustache while he sings love songs about poll taxes and obedient peasants



Sarah Palin smoking enormous cigars with Putin naked in a hot tub full of war victims' tears



Trump and Boris Johnson squeezing each others nipples until the other cries out to daddy for help (Daddy being Marine Le Pen giving them a thorough erotic flogging)



Such people only have mechanical non-erotic non-imaginative sex



All of this would make for a very lucrative niche fans-only account



Vladimir Putin grabbing Donald Trump by the balls



To do list

"Leave it to the states"

It was always a naked farce. Graham, a self-proclaimed "pro-lifer" wants a life-saving medical procedure banned in all states after 20 weeks with exceptions for rape and incest (i guess their idea of "murder" includes exceptions then).[1] Lovely. But that "leave it to the states" has always been "let us Republicans continue treating our own citizens in states we control as filth, federal government can't make us practice basic human rights!". I'm really surprised these awful Republicans have the utter temerity to think their black hole of a moral compass should be imposed on the whole union. Republicans have always had a disconnect between their values and what the majority of voters want, and it's only growing wider. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 01:58, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

and if cons are saying "well look it'll be more like europe, no the state of abortion care in most of europe doesn't churn my gut the way it does in texas because the exceptions in europe are actually properly laid out, generous with the exceptions, and still enable many women to get an abortion. it's not like the muddy provisions (muddy BY DESIGN) with harsh punishments --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 02:25, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Any principled progressive leftist saw the writing on the wall months ago. I expected this. Let this be a lesson to anyone thinking you can half-ass with Republicans. You give fascists an inch, they take a mile. They will not stop at the states, they will not stop at federal legislation. Nothing short of a consitutional amendment making abortion completely illegal will make Republicans and conservatives happy. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
Knowing that a pro-choice referendum will be on the November ballot in Michigan I will choose the pro-choice option. Let's be real, if the pro-life option passes, women who miscarry during pregnancy will end up dead. There will be no way to survive the resulting catastrophic bacterial infection. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 16:06, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
It's no surprise that States' rights has been resurrected as "Leave it to the states" by the senator from the first insurrection state. The strategy would seem to be to take the unprincipled principle that was applied to African Americans and apply it to women. Bongolian (talk) 17:53, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Go out and vote then. Reproductive rights are under attack. If the GOQ wants to leave it up to the states then people in each state should vote for reproductive rights. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 18:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

…At this point, I'm seriously thinking that the GOP should be abolished and its members blacklisted from politics, if not society altogether. I swear, they have zero integrity and even less concern for the welfare of humanity… they have practically no morals at all, and any victory for them is a loss for humanity. Luigifan18 (talk) 00:29, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Make no mistake, the GOP is a fascist party. They are anti-democracy, pro-authoritarianism and fundamentally agree with "radicals" on the right. If the US handled democracy properly, they would not be in any position of power whatsoever. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 00:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
The United States isn't a democracy. It's a constitutional republic. That's United States civics 101. Nehme1299 (talk) 17:07, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
m8, seriously. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Ah, so this group of people is so awful that they must be banned from politics and the democratic process, maybe even society, especially since they're popular enough to see their agenda advanced with the democratic process. Those anti-democratic authoritarians who approve of a recent decentralization of government power. Those fascists. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 13:32, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, they'd do it to us if they ever got the chance. Luigifan18 (talk) 01:15, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

We live in a new conspiratorial age

It's actually extremely concerning how far we've gone in terms of conspiracy being mainstream. It's personally affected my family as well. I have to live in a household with someone that actively listens to people like Russell Brand and Eric Berg while taking everything they say at face value. These sorts of cranks have become mainstream and it's horrific. I don't wish to be in a world where the only thing you need to get people to believe the shit you say is money and a minute amount of charisma, reality be damned. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 17:38, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Me too, my mother and some family members are believers in quite a bit of conspiracies, all of them believe in anti-vax stuff, one of them is even a flat earther. I just try to avoid them whenever I can. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't have the priviledge of avoiding them. It's even more hurtful for me because my father specfically used to be a very skeptical and thoughtful person, but his skepticism was used to get him to believe in some truly insane shit. When he mentioned manifesting to me I realized he was too far gone. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 17:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
None of those in my family that believe this stuff were skeptics to begin with, they just started with this shit because of tiktok spam and reinforcing these beliefs among themselves and their friends. I feel you, living with people like this just causes you to be angry all the time. It's emotionally draining. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 17:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Asterisks. But yes, financial shit has made people more vulnerable to fringe cringe. SomeBurnerAccount (talk) 19:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
There's part of me which wonders whether the pandemic is partly to blame for stuff like this. RE: the effects of long-term physical/social isolation, coupled with some people being furloughed / unemployed and thus with 'lots of free time'. That for a % of the population, they spent far too much time marinading their minds in various U-bends without external intervention (though to be honest, I think it's changed us all in ways we don't really appreciate). KarmaPolice (talk) 21:15, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
People want simple explanations for complex issues. We have a lot of complex issues in today's world. So people desperate for an answer will find one, whether that's by a legitimately credible source, or some dickhead like David Icke. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 21:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, but that's always been true. That alone don't explain the uptick and then 'normalisation' of tsuch things. KarmaPolice (talk) 21:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
It doesn't, at least not by itself. I don't think there's a single answer to why. A lot of people are charlatans or grifters like Russell Brand, a lot of people are genuinely insane like David Icke, and some are just idiots like Sadhguru, but I think the biggest reason why their bullshit spreads so much easier now is because of our expanding digital age. It's easier to find their content because they create profit, and they're pushed onto people because of targeted content. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 21:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Which is why I wonder whether the pandemic had a part to play. A lot of people spent a lot of time outside of contact with, let's call it 'the real world'. Without regular contact with other 'normal(ish) people' for long periods of time some of us have frankly gotten a bit weird. I know it did to me. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
I can relate to that, KarmaPolice. LongStylus (talk) 23:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
As an extreme example of social isolation, solitary confinement causes extreme levels of psychological harm. Perhaps the social distancing we experienced is just a small taste of that. And coincidentally, use of solitary confinement has increased during the pandemic: "...some correctional systems are employing isolation in ways that are haphazard or inhumane and will, in turn, undermine their public health intentions." [2] LongStylus (talk) 00:11, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
On the pessimistic side, I think humanity has always lived in, as you say, "a world where the only thing you need to get people to believe the shit you say is money and a minute amount of charisma". The difference may mainly be which such influences have become more visible, and so, what ends up being widely believed. On the optimistic side, a future society may possibly, with further technical development, create better ways of filtering/searching the great deluge of information, and through that solve the problem – by obsoleting the current paradigm of viral trends and influencers. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 06:05, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
On Stylus' point - for some, it was more than 'a small taste' during the pandemic; I (for example) spent seven weeks (first wave) alone in a flat 25m² in size. Luckily, I've always had enough interests/hobbies to keep me occupied and I'm not hugely social but even then by week five I was starting to crack up a bit. I then had perhaps another ten weeks (or so) with a slightly more relaxed regime. If I'd not had the mental abilties of self-occupation (ie didn't have hobbies etc) and had been laid off from all my jobs (so no routine) yeah, I could see the alt-me falling down a virtual rabbithole very quickly.
On Gnegiol's point - I think the main issue on that front is a general lack of public knowledge of both logic and rhetoric. Because people aren't trained to work things out, to think critically and to spot methods of persuasion etc many of us are effectively trawling the internet with no antivirus, no firewalls and no security verifications. KarmaPolice (talk) 06:33, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Maybe it's worse. An alternative way of looking at it may be that we live in an age of entertainment right now. The century before that of the Enlightenment was a century where drama and theater was valued very highly. Thereafter priorities changed along with much else. I think the current century, roughly – maybe it goes back a little more, to the 1980s – may be like a new age similar to that old one where civilization values entertainment above all else. And in a senseless world where making money and being entertained by drama is what most people try to live for above all, increasingly many find meaning by submerging themselves more fully in fantasy worlds like the very Hollywood-like one of QAnon, etc. The alternative is simply too drab and boring for them, so they prefer to be "infected" by viral memeplexes.
Maybe later, humanity will invent new and interesting things that capture attention better than drama, something which comes across as more meaningful, leading to a new age of reason, a little like what happened with the older century where the Enlightenment entered. But I think that's still in the future, and until then the masses probably won't find it interesting enough to educate themselves about how to handle information well, unless forced to by truly dire circumstances. As in, unless there's fire and explosions all around, or a truly staggering death toll, those who above all want to be entertained will be happy to say "lol" one moment and boil in anger the next as they pose and follow posers on social media, while dreaming of a personal role in great imaginary battles between good and evil. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Good to know there's no need for anti-trust legislation any more, now that people no longer make private agreements for mutual benefit at the expense of others. 192․168․1․42 (talk) 13:33, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
What is your point? It wasn't claimed that such doesn't happen. It also happened earlier, before the "new conspiratorial age", the problem growing and shrinking over centuries in various ways. The world would suck less with better regulations, but the basic problem discussed here would remain, I think. (Each new technological paradigm change is also an opportunity for change, because it can topple the old megacorp order – but in the absence of adequate regulation, whatever grows in its place may be as bad, or even worse.) --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 17:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
we are bombarded with so much utter dogshit from all possible sources these days. you need to have trusted sources of information to filter out most of the conflicting nonsense and can hopefully give you at least the basic facts of whats going on in the world today. problem is there has been concerted efforts from various self serving fucknuts - some holding far far too much power and influence to destroy any kind of trust in institutions that we should be able - need - to have some degree of trust in. people pushing a narrative can characterise anything counter to their agenda as fake news, as propaganda. a polarised political climate, hideously biased news media, there are so few sources of information that can still be reliably trusted to keep the spin to a minimum where we all can agree can give us the basic facts of things and they are all under constant assault to make us distrust even these, any editorial misstep or slack fact checking is leapt on so that if one detail in a news story turns out to be false, then its all false. all news is fake news. the medium of youtube, instagram, tik tok, twitter, do not allow much in the way nuance and depth, favouring soundbites and memes. lies and bullshit have a global reach and instantaneous. a lie travels around the world in an instant, reposted, retweeted, shared with everyone you one know before you can even assess the validity and everyones moved on the next twitter storm so the lie remains leaves an imprint but the retraction/fact checking is missed, or simply labelled fake news. misinformation is weaponised, literally - russia propagana machine creates fake fact checking sites, but everyone with a twitter account is their propaganda machine. if its all fake, why bother with fact checking? just go with what fits our world views, no matter how crazy insane it is. theres plenty of people to tell us we are right, the folk who say we wrong would say that wouldnt they. the people who we end up trusting - and we need to have people to trust in - can wield incredible influence, on an individual level and on whole segments of society. i read somewhere us tv news media doesnt really do much actual news but more opinion. opinion that is unchallenged for many because there is no trusted counter that we can all agree is neutral. and its all reinforced by algorithms and bubbles. those of us who grew up before the internet, where there was less media to reach our eyeballs, less room for the really crazy nonsense to gain purchase and less in the way of conflicting information will most likely have newspapers or news sources they still trust to some degree are maybe more resistant to the dogshit that coats everything now - but by no means a given - that the likes of lizard people still sounds like bad sci fi. but what of the people who have grown up with twitter, and fox news and fucking prison planet as their primary news sources?
this is why anyone complaining their free speech being infringed are full of shit. authoritarian governments restrict and control the information the masses are exposed to, but the methods are imperfect - suppressed information still gets out to some degree. in the free democratic world, we dont need to suppress information, we dont need to erode freedom of speech to dupe the masses or prevent our lies being exposed. quite the opposite. they give us freedom of speech and we are drowning in it. lizard people are not as fringe as they should be, qanon is fucking mainstream, and calling ex president trump a liar liar pants on fire is fake news and the election was stolen. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Attempts to add the QAnon page to the New Age

For quite some time now, there are constant attempts to add the QAnon page to the New Age category by recently created accounts, that I suspect are all created by the same person. I've semi-protected the page, but if anyone sees such attempts, revert at will! Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 18:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I dunno, they both kinda have the whole "bubbling, steaming piles of horseshit" thing in common, so I can see where someone might think to reclassify it... Kencolt (talk) 18:07, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm sure many QAnon believers are New Age believers too, but I think it takes more than just both being nonsensical bullshit to be added to the New Age category. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 18:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
The overlap between QAnon and New Age is mentioned in part of the article, and it's an example of "conspirituality". Maybe there should be a Category:Conspirituality for things that are both conspiracist and "spiritual"/New Agey; but then a whole lot of crank teachings and teachers combining the two would fit in that category, there would be lots to add to it. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:00, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
The core ideas for QAnon and New Age are quite different, but it doesn't stop the occasional kook from getting sucked into QAnon (e.g. Jake Angeli) due to the extremely strong crank magnetosphere. Bongolian (talk) 02:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I personally believe Q to be a disinformation campaign by the pedophiles who run the world. Like, they know that they can't keep their pedophilia under wraps forever, but if they get some whackjobs to start spreading some conspiracy that there isn't a bunch of pedos running things but satanic, cannabilistic pedos, and that somehow the only one who can stop them is the guy who bought a beauty pageant specifically so he could watch a bunch of naked teenagers as well as be close buddies with Jeffrey Epstein... Cortex (pester) 04:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Cory, if you talk like that they'll call you a CIA asset. Only conspiracy theories of the kinds approved for promulgation among the masses are legit, remember? The great theme of QAnon is supposed to be how all the things otherwise feared about governments, all manner of nasty things they may possibly do (including spying on, snatching, torturing, and killing people), are totally fine when done by "your" side as part of a claimed positive conspiracy. I.e., there is only a "prison planet" problem if you're on the wrong side of the power structure, imagining what those in power will do as if they are like yourself, instead of you being in power and doing that to everyone else.
Anyway, I've been wondering why QAnon had such an influence on the worlds of New Age and alternative health, a subculture largely changing over the course of a few years. Vaguely hippie-like super-syncretic believers who accepted everything and the kitchen sink as real (as long as it wasn't too mainstream) and tried to "be positive" suddenly flipped, and began to imitate Christian fundies, preoccupying themselves with a new satanic panic and the threat of a global holocaust in which all but a few micro-chipped servants of "the elites" would be the target, unless the tables were turned so that only the spiritually proper make it. Maybe a great many "progressive" New Agey believers secretly didn't have any real convictions of their own, even the well-known authors among them, and that's why so many changed track so readily... --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 11:44, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
New Age frankly is pretty much "dead" these days. The movement peaked in the 1980s and really wasn't relevant by the time the 21st century rolled around. From my informal perspective, the end result of the movement was a bit of a split. A lot of the more relatively benign aspects of the 1980s phenomenon (stuff like yoga / meditation, natural food fads, and various positivity-focused self-help) sort of folded into the mainstream. A lot of the more really far out-there woo (crystals, pyramid power, channeling, etc.) faded somewhat. The parts of New Age woo that focused on alternative medicine woo, however, hung on pretty well and were integrated to some degree as mainstream, albeit in a different way. This is sort of a "post-New Age" deal, a way to sell lifestyle oriented products and experiences, including but not exclusively altmed woo. The esotericism of the old New Age movement is pretty much gone, but the conspiracy-oriented mindset which some had in the old days too remains. Goop is an excellent example of that phenomenon.
The altmed industry these days is really broad. Infowars, Jim Bakker, and Mehmet Oz all dabble or have dabbled in it, just like Goop. In a clear demonstration of the integration of these crowds, Bakker had a guest specializing in "holistic health" in 2020. That's, er, as New Age of a term as I can think of. (So much for the fundie New Age haters of the 1980s...). It just shows that there's a wee bit of crossover in these crowd these days, and the wellness industry is probably a little more broader than the peace-love-hippie stereotype you found in the past. I'd guess this, and not hippies all of a sudden becoming fundies, is more the bigger driving force here. (talk) 21:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
There's also quite a good deal of New Agey esoteric stuff in Neopaganism (crystals, runes, even astral journeys, etc), so it's not as dead as it seems even if some of the woo (medicine) fortunately seems little extended there. Panzerfaust (talk) 22:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I actually asked a full-blown older (approx 50?) New Ager this yesterday (work colleague and was teamed with them). Their reply was interesting.
Their 'argument' (I condense for readability) was that the 'crytals-dowsing-witchcrap' end is actually bigger than ever - it's just relatively dropped off the radar of the Big Public. That the filtering the online world does ensures non-believers like us never see such stuff now, and 'the movement' has gotten too large to tag along with wider 'alternative lifestyle' expos etc (this I can personally confirm; went to a vegan expo in the summer and there was only two stalls (out of ~70) offering this stuff). In a way, they seem to prefer this; they can be easily 'found' if wanted, but folks who might object won't see it.
The other strand was that which could be termed 'cultural appropiation'. That capitalism has basically, taken the most 'mainstream' elements, sanded off anything 'iffy' for the purpose to make it sellable on QVC and Tescos by the million (the 'post New-Age deal' mentioned by 35.1 above). It could be said much of it has to pass the 'Walmart test' (a term for old music/films; you aimed to be 'family friendly' enough to get stocked in Walmarts across the USA, including the Bible Belt). So spirit channeling and grimoires are clearly 'out', but yoga and meditation can pass if suitably sanatised of non-Christian elements.
Anyhows, I'd argue that QAnon isn't really that related to New Age - that instead, they share overlaps because they both ultimately stem from the same source; 'disbelief in general reality', that 'there are people behind the curtain' secretly steering (or at least nudging) the world. A belief in They, to make Them organised and then give Them 'ulterior motives'... it's an old suspicion and conspiracy theory. The biggest mental 'hump' is to accept the possibility of They; once you've crossed it you've become much more vunerable to other crankery. That when it comes down to it, there's only so many ways you can 'build a functional conspiracy' and like with fictional plotlines, nearly all of them have already been done.
Which is QAnon's ultimate strength. It's a true buffet-style grand conspiracy; you can select the bits which cater to your pre-existing beliefs and run the story you'd like. Fundie Christian? Weave it into a narrative which fits your odd reading of Scripture. Suspicious of modernity? Take the 'technocratic new world order' variant which reads like it's cribbed off Deus Ex and Mage the Ascension. Not a complete loon? - trim off the satanic sacrifices etc and simply make it a old-school 'rich men in smoke-filled rooms' plot. I've even seen the 'wheels within wheels' variant; that 'the conspiracy' is real, but QAnon is a distractor and Trump is actually part of it. KarmaPolice (talk) 09:06, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Here's Johnny

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11224475/Axe-wielding-man-31-goes-rampage-NYC-McDonalds-REJECTED-young-woman.html How not to handle a rejection. Leibniz Enter into the rabbit hole 15:13, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Apparently charged with fourth-degree criminal mischief (destroying property worth over $250) and possession of a weapon, not with trying to injure anybody. I would have thought that waving an ax in a crowded room could be kind of dangerous, but I'm not a NYC cop/prosecutor. --Annanoon (talk) 12:21, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

How is Colorado as far as living there?

Circumstances at home have forced me to make a choice between moving to Colorado or staying in Florida. I've looked into it a little and the nature is wonderful, but the crime has me concerned a lot. I want to know thoughts on this as I don't know anything really about the state.Machina (talk) 20:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

You should move to The Galapagos Islands. Acei9 20:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
New Zealand is nice this time of year. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Well, it's fucking abysmal at the moment. December - March is the best time to come for beaches and sun. June - September for the snow. Acei9 21:18, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm being serious. My mom died last year and over the course of a year my dad has remarried to a woman none of us know nor have met, threw out all my moms things without letting anyone in my family know about it, dumped my moms ashes in the everglades instead of the mountains like she wanted and is now selling the home we have lived in and forcing us to find a new place or move there with him to Canon city. The woman is a vaccine denier who thinks they are how the government tracks you (yeah, that kind of nutty). I want to know what it might be like there.Machina (talk) 22:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

What the point of being with shit parents then? (talk) 23:54, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
If you want to move to Connecticut we'd welcome you here, goodness knows a place at once known for its wealth and burned-out factory buildings dominating the centers of struggling towns has enough contradictions to manage all comers. Affordability is... not great, but I've managed to pull it off. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:23, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Colorado is a fairly diverse state as far as living conditions: eastern plains, Denver (urban), Boulder (liberal college town, Rocky Mountain foothills), Colorado Springs (ex-libertarian utopia), west side (gun nuts, Lauren Boebert). Bongolian (talk) 06:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Three words: Impending water crisis. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 11:10, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Well... Canon City has less than 20k population, not much of an economy 'save prisons and tourism, average incomes are *much* lower than average, you're in a kinda remote locale, it's cripplingly car-dependent and the lines 'great place to retire to' should ring huge alarm bells to people under the age of 35. Give it an extra star if you're a real 'outdoorsy' person. Looking at the demographics and stats, I bet much of the 'extra crime' is of the 'bored youth' type, leavened with the 'washout' petty criminals of the My Name Is Earl type who never got to escape from the place. There's also a bit of chatter about the local fundies controlling the place; don't be mistaken, this is *truly* Trump Country.
Basically, Canon City has all the appearances of being a bit of a backwater craphole - the kind which has suffered perhaps generations of brain drain as any youth with an ounce of ambition and/or skill aims to escape from as soon as - leaving the others 'stuck' there, who watch their lives slide out of view. The question is; are *you* at risk of getting stuck? If you don't have that good job prospects, decent financial independence and so on, I would personally say it's quite a risk to pull yourself from your current area because chances are if you've lived there long enough you'll have a 'support network' which won't exist in Colorado. Which might be even worse if you really don't get on with your Dad's new woman.
But all this is very general advice - almost 'points to think about' here, as I don't know squat about you, your situation, your current locale or even a real on-the-ground feeling of Canon City. I'm only answering this because I'm having to make a decision where I'm going to be living for the next 5-10 years plus, and frankly all the advice I'm getting is from people who are either known idiots and/or have their own interests at heart. You have to make this decision for you, not anyone else. The only thing worse than being stuck in a craphole is being stuck in a craphole *and feeling it's another's fault*.
Which is why I replied to this. What you need to decide is what where you wish to be in 5 years time. Not geographically, but in your life. Then once you know that (or at very least, know what you *don't want*) you can start working out which place would be better to achieve them. Despite all the negatives I've said about Canon City, it's quite possible what you want *is* more achievable there.
Lastly; check out all your options. Is it possible you could move to a third locale (ie neither your current place or Canon City)? KarmaPolice (talk) 15:33, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I lived in Colorado briefly, but Cañon City never crossed my radar. This CC tourist attraction would seem to sum things up though ("Unlock the past and experience the colorful history of prison life!").[3] Bongolian (talk) 17:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I've never been to Colorado; I plan on visiting next year. However, Washington is similar to Colorado except it (normally) has more temperature weather, especially west of the Cascades. Would recommend moving there. Andrew5 (talk) 18:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
By that logic, people should move to Aberdeen, WA then? KarmaPolice (talk) 18:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I was moreso thinking of Seattle, or maybe even Vancouver, British Colombia (which I also visited), although many British Colombia parks are further northeast.Andrew5 (talk) 20:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Well, moving to Colorado Springs or Denver aren't options in this scenario. KarmaPolice (talk) 08:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Well I don't know what I want. I don't know where I would see myself in 5 years, let alone the next few months. I don't even know what I don't want considering it changes each day. That's probably my main issue, I don't know what I want and I have a month to make a choice that can impact the rest of my life. The nature is a selling point but I would have to choose between the mountains or the ocean and I just can't. The state is better if you're a gay man but my family is here, though I'm not too close with them. I wouldn't have a job over there, but apparently job market is better there. I don't have financial independence. My current job is only 15/hr and it was the only job I've gotten after 6 months of looking in FL. There's too much i dont know and I dont think I can make a choice.Machina (talk) 19:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

That sounds simple, then - you're going to the very conservative backwater craphole. I say this because it's clearly going to be the default option if you decline to make a decision on the matter. And when decisions like this are made *for* you, it's rarely because they think it's in *your* best interest. However, I don't know what your current locale is like, it could be even more a craphole than the proposed one.
But you won't know your options unless you actually investigate them. Like for starters, actually find out whether remaining in Florida is an actual option. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:06, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
So it looks like I would hit the ground running over there. I'd be staying with my dad and her until I got a job and earned money, they have a lot of connections to help me out and get me started and everything like that in tech companies, that would also train me. IT would be a better situation than where I am now with no opportunities.Machina (talk) 00:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm a bit suspicious on how they can have 'lots of contacts' in a place on the other side of the country... do one or both come from there or something? Also, do said contacts actually have the ability to *really* help you get these jobs, or is this more a handwavy 'sure they can help' thing (which might turn out to be sod all when you get down to it?) These days, all these jobs are online so basically, you can see in advance if there's actually any jobs you'd genuinely want. Or possibly get.
This might read like I'm crapping on a parade here but, well I'm a bit of a cynic and all this nice guff can be just enough to tempt you to move over there only to discover... well, it is guff (yeah, this has happened to me. Shittiest five years of my life...). Also, again explore your other options. They've basically made the case for moving to Colorado. Now see if what the alternative is if you stay in Florida. Unless you don't bother with this, which means you're going by default. KarmaPolice (talk) 08:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
One thing that's a little weird to me about the above -- Cañon City isn't a "tech hub", or even a tech anything. Various job searches kind of confirmed that there are very few (as in, any?) tech opportunities out in that place. Closest place with some tech jobs is Colorado Springs (mainly if you dig military / aerospace jobs, though there's a spattering of others). The Denver metro area, of course, is where you will find the most tech opportunities. Most of the jobs on Indeed for Cañon City seem to be retail / service or manual labor oriented. Of course, there are more remote-work opportunities these days in the tech field, but still... (talk) 13:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually based on what I have heard from those I've asked about Colorado and that area it's nowhere near as bad as you make it sound and this is from those who live in the area. So I'm feeling less scared about this move. As for the contacts, that's the reason they decided to move there because they know a lot of people in the state. My father traveled a lot for work and developed quite the network, and she is the same. So I think I'll be ok. I feel good about this.Machina (talk) 16:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

'Colorado' and 'Canon City' are two different things, which is something both I and 35.1 is alluding to (there did seem to be a bit of telecommunications in area too... and quite a lot of low/minimum paid healthcare roles in Canon). I'm always suspicious about people who say X places 'aren't so bad' and tell you to basically, ignore the actual stats etc - sometimes, it's because the lifestyles they lead 'fit' the places concerned, or they have money to cushion etc. I actually personally know people who say [known shithole] is an 'okay place to live', but truth be told they're both long-hour commuters who literally, only come home to sleep (they even do all their shopping online, so they don't even find out how the town centre is a burned-out hulk filled with homeless and thieving kids). This is why I said you need to figure out what you want ie lifestyle.
The search engine starting with G tells me the place in question is an hour-odd drive each way to Colorado Springs and two for Denver. Do you drive and have a car? From the looks of it there's no public transport to speak of. Telling you employment in Florida is 'great' means nothing in reality if the work is in Jacksonville and you're moving to Key West. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
It's less "bad" and more "will it fit?". If, for instance, you didn't say "tech job" and instead said "social worker interested in rehabilitation", well, there's plenty of demand for that in Cañon City and the surrounding towns in Fremont County for prison oriented jobs (like rehabilitation) due to all the prisons in that county. If that's your thing, and you also dig a slower, rural lifestyle and all that entails, Cañon City might be a great fit. Personally, while I don't mind hiking in the Rockies at all, I would have trouble with living in Cañon City, due to the lack of job opportunities in my field (IT-development) which is really a biggie. Culture wise, my "online impression" is that, while seemingly friendly, it is too religious-conservative, small town, and "prison town vibe" for my taste. So that's also a knock against it, for me personally at least. Cañon City doesn't look like a "shithole town", though, it has some tourist-oriented eateries beyond the chain grub due to the Royal Gorge tourism, and plenty to do if you like outdoors stuff (not much to do, I guess though, if you don't). Again, it's more what fits than anything else. (talk) 20:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
True enough, which is why I urged to work out where you want to be lifestyle-wise and to also what kinds of things float your boat. I personally gave it a 'bit of a craphole' rating (accent on 'bit') on several statistical factors; low average income, a relative shortage of well-paid, 'career-type' jobs (which weren't the military, law enforcement or related to prisons), a high-ish crime rate, a odd demographic mix which has a general shortage of young-ish adults, it's small population size, it's distance from major metros, the fact generally speaking when I see 'great retirement location' I normally read 'quiet and dull'. I didn't see anything red-flaggable in general terms, but I did get the feeling that it was the kind of backwater 'burg where if you were unlucky and/or not careful, you *could* end up stuck in for a very long time due the simple fact theire's not a huge amount of opportunities going on in it. KarmaPolice (talk) 21:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I really think you are over blowing how bad that whole situation would be. Like I said, pretty much everywhere else I ask say it's not a bad place to be and that on a whole the move would be better. And weighing the facts on my situation in FL and over there then Colorado would be leagues better, in many ways. So I think you might be in the wrong here.Machina (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

No doubt, you're asking random Internets that doesn't know much about you and is getting impressions of a city through Google. :) Also, Florida does have places I've been to that I would definitely consider much "worse" for my tastes (in theory) than a place I haven't been to in Colorado, so in a comparison for your tastes between just two places you might be especially right as well. (talk) 23:59, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Plus, asking 'is it nice' is a very subjective question, while asking say 'what are the job offerings here like' is objective. As I've pointed out, much of my 'weighting' I gave for statistics, not reviews. Okay, tell me the local income levels aren't low, it isn't a small town which is pretty conservative (as shown by voting results since 2000), it isn't dominated by prisons/the army and it isn't a heavily car-dependent locale. There's also a selection bias for this kind of thing; most people who give their opinion on such places (and sites) normally either loathe the place or love it, which means a general thinness of 'meh' reviews.
As I said at the start, I was simply trying to give you 'points to consider' more than anything else. 'What works for you' is not automatically what works for me, and vice-versa. I myself are currently going through this situation (kinda), and one of the places I've ringed as a definite 'possible' was one which 'personal opinion' said was a dangerous, ugly craphole. However, after looking at stats and later on a personal scouting mission established it as being a bit of a rough-ready locale, but a pretty practical choice which would suit my 'lifestage'. No way the 'best choice' period, but perhaps one of the 'best realistically on offer'.
I also repeatedly said for you to work out what your option(s) was in regards to remaining in Florida (for example, you might end up living in a different town, or have different living standards). I was always open to the idea that even if Canon City wasn't that great, it might be better than your current locale. This is why I asked 'what do you want' and 'where do you wish to go in your life'. For example, Canon City *may* work if the plan was to use the place as a spring-board to better things, such as 'get training at local college, get decent-ish job in Colorado Springs then move there when I can afford it'. But as you don't have a clue what you want or even what the alternatives are, the choice apparently has been made for you, and they've successfully sold it to you with spiel. I hope it doesn't prove to be a pup. KarmaPolice (talk) 06:23, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
honestly without knowing a lot more details of your life machina (im not asking for more details btw) there is not really much to say beyond whast easily googlable about parts of colarado and what that might mean for vague hypotheticals. doesnt seem to be much obviously egregious that raises any serious red flags and you have some family support. whats keeping you in florida? how would life change for you? what would you miss? change in scenery maybe different pace of life might be good thing in and of itself. whats the worst case? lacking resources to move on if you hate it maybe? life is lived so much on the internet these days - none of us as trapped or isolated by our locations as we used to be. worst comes to the worst, there is always meth. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:41, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
i am surrounded by people who have relocated from across the other side of the globe. dunno how people do that - it must be terrifying. i started out in central essex and upsticks to central london - hardly an epic journey. i have not a pot to piss in but i am incredibly lucky. im about where (location wise) i want to be, more or less living the life i want to live. if i won the lottery i'd still live in the area, do pretty much the same things as i do now, id just have nicer furnishings. by rights i should be dead in a ditch by now. being a feckless wastrel and lumpenproletariat have their own rewards. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

In all honesty I wouldn't be leaving much behind. I have no friends, the family here is very conservative and holidays with them is exhausting. Their kind of humor is mostly just dumping on other people which while funny at first just starts to become mean. I can't talk seriously with them because they are deep in the "by your bootstraps" mentality among other things. The names my dad threw out were stuff like TechStart and Pax8, not sure what that means but the friends are those who are bringing high tech jobs to canon city.Machina (talk) 23:59, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Googling, TechStart is an office space in Canon City specializing in rural remote hybrid-office work, and Pax8 is a company with a "rural empowerment" program that (with a wee bit of nudging from a state of Colorado rural development policy) is participating in this space. So it's something. As mentioned, there's more remote only positions in tech and other things these days too (two sites specializing in job postings on this are remoteok and We Work Remotely) so even if TechStart etc. doesn't work it's possible to find good IT jobs anywhere now with the right skills, as long as the Internet connection is solid. (talk) 00:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
After a bit of research, I have a suspicion your father is giving you guff. I am willing to retract this statement, but shall show my 'workings'.
TechStart is a 'tech incubator'. Basically, it offers the infrastructure for other tech start-ups to well, start up. Like 35.1 mentioned, yes they do exist in Canon City. However, they are not really an employer - I looked (quickly) online to see what jobs they offered... and it was none. This is not that shocking to me; TechStart after all works on providing the means for others to work. The 'plan' here appears to be 'hope TechStart lures the tech companies to Canon City which will then employ you'. My experience is that startups generally lack the funds to train people to do the roles too.
Pax8 is a 'real company'. Not sure exactly what they do, but they do have quite a few positions open. It's also in Colorado... in a suburb of Denver (daily road commute; ~4h). Do they offer remote working positions? A few, yes. However... they are asking for degrees. Even the $15/h internships are asking for them. Reading between lines is that they're perhaps willing to accept a 'non-perfect fit' candidate and train them, but I really don't think they'll forego the degree bit (do you possess a Sci degree?). Unless your father knows someone in the company who's willing to bend the rules to get you in. Does he?
Now, I'm going to go on a limb here and assume you do not currently possess the skillset for remote tech work (if you did, you could do that from Florida). Now, I have shown that neither of above appears to be a *direct* line to said work. I personally think you really need to investigate 'Plan Bs'. Is going back to education a possibility? I noticed a Community College in Canon; is there anything there? If you don't drive, learning to will clearly be a plus. Perhaps some online accredited training?
Ultimately, this all boils down to a question of *cash*. Which basically, means finding out how much your father etc shall financially support you while you're doing said training etc. Even if you're able to get on an apprentice programme, you might need subsidising re: living costs. But once again, this partly relies on you working out what the hell you desire to do (or very least, what you don't want to). I speak from experience; I get the vibe you're seeing this move as a way to get out of a rut - if you're not proactive it could prove very easy to simply move to a new rut (esp as Canon City is hardly awash with opportunities). KarmaPolice (talk) 18:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

My dad and his wife know the founder of TechStart, in fact they are friends with him. He knows all the other people in the area who own the companies as well, so I have ins for sure. Once I get to Canon she can have me meet this guy and he can put me in touch with the CEO of Pax8. She said they will train you and they had someone who was a therapist that is currently working for them who is trained. It would be remote work. Thing is in Florida I have 0 opportunities, no social contacts and no real support network. I might have family but they are very conservative and their support is little more than just "pull yourself by your bootstraps" because they did it too, blah blah blah. I have no friends here, no opportunities. The job I have now is the ONLY one that took me after over a year of looking and the only one with decent money. My dad is well connected from his work and his wife is not only the same but loaded as well. Not to put too fine a point on it but this opportunity is pretty much a gift from heaven. I'm drowning in Florida and barely keeping myself afloat. There is no PLAN B down here.Machina (talk) 14:46, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Anytime I hear someone say "gender studies" when talking about college and university

I can interpret it as supporting anti-intullectualism.

Then again, knowing that gender studies is mentioned in the alt right dictionary page, anti-intullectualism is common among the far right.

Education is the worst enemy of political extremism; far right and far left.

I am not hating on those who didn't go to college or go to trade schools. College is not for everyone and that is fine. Don't hate on college educated people. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 00:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Gender studies has given the world some true batshit craziness, the world would have been much better off without the moralizing of Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon and it's frankly depressing how many people uncritically swallow the bilge they spawned. The reaction to Avital Ronnell a couple years ago told me about all I needed to know about intellectually serious they are, and the "genderless Joan of Arc" actually being unironic was just a bit more confirmation. It's too bad the bug-nutty-crazy-world types in the fever swamps on the right get so hung up on these things that genuine criticism gets drowned out. I say that because all fields have their own issues and should be subject to serious scrutiny, in that regard gender studies isn't unique; it's how politicized the scrutiny is that irretrievably muddies the waters. I don't see a good way out of it, which is unfortunate since the field has some genuine value too. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't think "gender studies" is a terribly respected degree TBH on its own except for a few narrow fields. (But neither is a theology degree from a fundie school.)
Very few people in the US get ethnic / gender / cultural degrees. Sure, there's certainly some wackiness that comes from some of these departments... but judging the entirety of the college experience by these types is nutpicking.
"Gender studies" tends to be the boogeymen of authoritarian-wannabe types who promote "traditional values" (eg Jair Bolsonaro, Viktor Orban) and the online subcultures that tend to blame feminism and trans for every ill on the planet. To me, in that context, it's a dogwhistle.
To me, there's a wee bit of danger in this line of thinking precisely because, as mentioned, it's anti-intellectual. We've seen the results of "authoritarian + anti-intellectual" before, on both the fascist and communist side. Ain't pretty... (talk) 01:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Dworkin and Mackinnon never got a single mention when I took gender studies in college. They are not exactly relevant figures in the age of intersectional feminism - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 01:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I also feel the “crazies” in gender studies get alot more attention then the literal neo-nazi’s in other fields and I think that is telling - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 01:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Their outsized influence over activists like Know Your IX (as detailed by a defense attorney who knows what he's talking about) is an aggressive malignancy on society, it's the "tough-on-crime" corpse with a different head. And to the extent they get more attention, I think pretty much everyone in the chattering class assumes that neo-Nazis are crazies and not worth the ink spilled to refute them. The craziness coming from inside the house, by contrast, is actually controversial among that cohort so it garners a substantial debate. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:04, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
That reminds me; anyone want to write the article on Helmut Kentler? Long story short, Germany's top Sexology professor convinced the West Berlin government to assist him in rehabilitating pedophiles by having them adopt orphans. Most of those pedophiles were in fact friends of his, as well as himself. So yeah. But it's become a bit of a right-wing talking point because a lot of the more influential sexologists and gender studies folks have done so many awful things that even by the standards of their day they should've had their licenses revoked. Cortex (pester) 07:00, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Unless we get a fluent German-speaker, think Kentler shall remain undone. However, he might deserve a smaller mention if put in a wider 'sexual liberation' RW page (with him in a starring role as 'paedophile apologia' section, alongside PIE).
As with the 'gender studies'... think it's often used as shorthand for the 'useless degree' trope more than anything else. There's always a % of people who hold 'education should be practical!' (ie directly relevant to getting a job) and anything more is at best, 'fluff' (which you should do in your spare time and not a penny of 'my taxes' should pay for; the latter was a great line used in justifying the repeated hiking of student fees etc for universities). This was also a major part of the reasoning for the reorientation of UK education towards STEM in the '10s – 'teaching kids useful stuff for a change!' etc. This works particularly well if you hail from a class which has almost nil academic education (or it's associated trappings, like say books).
I'd argue that 'gender studies' is a prime target because the layperson has almost nil understanding on what it entails. This means it not only looks like 'fluff', but both useless and thin fluff too; they may not think much of the worth of literature, classics, fine art, psychology etc but they at least they grasp it's a subject large enough to take several years of study ('study' being much easier in the minds of people who generally speaking, never really have). Thus, gender studies also plays into the 'lazy student' trope; that such a degree is three years of sleeping until noon, smoking weed and these days 'trying to cancel everything' and glueing yourself to roads. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
The wikipedia article on the english version does have an English source. Maybe that could be helpfull for a draft (or just use GT to translate the articles from Der Spiegel)? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Speaking purely personally, wouldn't feel that secure doing a biog with such a thin source material and I don't trust GT that much for a task of this importance. Plus, also feel that it would be best to start off with a general 'sexual liberation' page and then, and then only then do a biog of Kentler. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I was under the impression that we had such a page, but it turns out that it's just a sub category of the Sexuality page. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 14:53, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
The more I read up on Alfred Kinsey, the more I'm convinced he was a more sexual Dr Harlow or Ivan Pavlov; his work was important, but holy fuck I don't want him living in my neighborhood. Cortex (pester) 16:23, 19 September 2022 (UTC)


Gender studies gets a bad name for no reason. Gender and how it plays into human social dynamics and society is a genuinely interesting and developing field. To discount an entire legitimate field of sociology and human development because some of the people that studied it ended up being insane is to discount higher education as a whole. I see plenty of shitty quack doctors with medical licenses but I'm not daft enough to discount medicine as a whole. The whole "USEFUL DEGREE/JUST GET A TRADE" argument is faux-populist, anti-intellectual bile, it holds no water. We need academics too. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 16:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
For many, 'worth' is defined by 'money'. How much does a gender studies grad earn these days? In fact, is there any actual jobs for a gender studies grad which is not teaching gender studies? When you have generally reduced the value of education to be weighed out in coins of the realm, you can be forgiven for folks being a tad suspicious, esp if they are of a class which 'further education' has been touted as the ticket to a better life for their kids. KarmaPolice (talk) 16:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
I mean, to me, that's part of my broader opposition to how we treat higher education as a whole. I also doubt most liberal arts graduates gain much money but I would be a fool if I said liberal arts or arts as a whole wasn't important. To the mind of a faux-populist, your value is only decided by your economic or "cultural" contributions. The reason conservatives or fascists also hate liberal arts students is beyond the fact that they don't make money, they see liberal arts as degenerate. Same goes for gender studies. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 17:00, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Which is why liberal arts and to a lesser extent humanities have become preserves for the middle class (and increasingly, upper-middle class). They're the only ones who can afford to spend the deposit on a house on something which shall not actually pay for itself in the long run. Similar could be said regarding the long unpaid internships seen in journalism and the media. It's also a hallmark of the member of the 'salitariat'; the managers, social workers, teachers, govt officials etc which are the prime nemisis of the blue-collar personage.
And I generally think conservatives/reactionaries don't like them simply because such grads are overwhelmingly not of their political ideology. Even social sciences has this cramp somewhat. From what I've seen, they're perfectly okay with 'deviancy' as long as you toe the line on everything else. KarmaPolice (talk) 17:26, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Don't forget politicians. Sure, NY state reps get a salary of $110k/yr, but it's $7200 in Texas. You try quitting a working class job for $7200 per year. Cortex (pester) 18:12, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
So, Ted Cruz gets $7200 a year for ranting insane BS? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 14:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
No, he's a US representative. It's the state legislatures that get paid $7200. Cortex (pester) 15:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I would be more sympathetic to that if it wasn't for, in addition to the Avital Ronnell fiasco, them being at the forefront of arguing that basic due process of law doesn't apply to their hated victims; they just put a veneer of respectability on it. The whole A Rape on Campus idiocy was only such a big story because the major "intellectuals" in the field actively chose to do nothing while their own students faced death threats in response to a transparently bullshit allegation (she copied dialogue from Dawson's Creek, it's not like she even tried that hard; you'd think a bunch of professors could've detected plagiarism). A bit of self-reflection would do the field some good, and said self-reflection hasn't been forthcoming. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
This really isn't adding too much in terms of content, however: most of the issues people attribute to 'Gender Studies', boils down to challenging the norms that have dominated the West specifically for centuries. It is an uncomfortable subject for those who have to reckon with their privilege being challenged. And the feminist movement has gone though radically different phrases throughout Western history, so it really isn't helpful to pick one specific feminist thing that is bat-shit. In general, these sort of discussions have created a more fair and just society. The only ones who disagree with that sentiment, see equality as oppression. Just my perspective.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
ive no doubt. you tell us nothing though of where that hard work should be focused, on what skills for what end beyond a vague 'living standards'. what is the criteria for what goals? what is 'doing well financially'? what is 'doing well financially' when wealth is not the primary motivation? you tell us nothing except that we watch too many cat videos or perhaps even dicking around with pamphlets disputing evolution. im not even talking about the plight of then under privileged vs the privileged, that we are not all starting from the same position with the same opportunities and abilities to spot and make the most of them for whatever goals they have or even able to have certain goals, allowed to even, but there is all that and 'They just choose to overcome their internal/external struggles' is all kinds of dogshit and you are not a human being if you believe that after looking looking around you at the world we live in. it certainly aint true if you hail from the us and most definitely not true in so so many parts of the world, but you know, im all right jackAMassiveGay (talk) 17:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
(sniffs the room) I can smell Horatio Alger's BS... 'just work harder' ... 'need more graft!' and all that. Did you know, a drowning man can drink his way to safety and the woman who can't walk is all due to 'not trying hard enough' and nothing to do with the fact she has no legs?
Anyway, the critical thing is that the general 'world of work' has changed drastically in the advanced world since even the 1990s. Most people under ~35 can easily expect to work well into their 70s, have at least two drastic career changes and one prolonged break/downshift. The workers who can successfully sail through these things in the future are going to be the ones which can be 'flexible', such as being able to maintain and extend a wide skills base.
In such things, the relatively 'worthless' arts/humanities degrees actually do provide advantages. They teach people how to think, how to learn, how to write and how to study. Even more bluntly, it often offers the place where people who aren't white and well-heeled can learn the culture and norms of their dominant class so we can later 'blend in better' at work. It's also a general benchmark of 'quality'; you look at a CV and see (say) the person's got a 2nd from Lincoln it shows that a) they had sufficient academic brains to get through it all and b) have sufficient gumption to ensure they graduated. In my experience, a lot of jobs which are 'degree level' actually don't *need* the degree (ie to do their stated roles) - the employer just likes to know they've hired someone of decent brainpower (for the unforseen etc). Therefore, as long as 'gender studies' is seen as being 'academically rigerous' as others from that uni, it doesn't hugely matter *what* the subject is in. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
what the degree is in is mostly irrelevant to a lot of employers making degree level qualifications a requirement to be considered. its an easy way of binning a pile of CVs so they can sift through a more managable pile to see who gets asked for interview. might be the decider at interview if two candidates with same experience would otherwise comes to a coin toss. its a good thing that so many more people degrees than not so long ago but its a pisser when you havent a degree and you can no longer apply for positions that a few years ago did not need them. its even worse when you are temping and doing the a job and doing it well but know if you had to apply for it like any other you would not even been considered. even worse though is not having a degree and going to interview to be told they think you are too qualified. one could be bitter about my poor life choices and the squandering of opportunities and i have plenty of trauma i can lay the blame if i so desire. i know what i did and didnt do, and i know what needs to be done to course correct but i am a feckless waster and i do far far better than i deserve. losing a job because i failed a criminal record check without having a criminal record was an injustice and really not my fault. that one stung. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, 'qualification inflation' is a problem, esp in the UK; many jobs have gone from demanding A-Levels in c1990 to degrees by c2015. Now sometimes there's justification for this (nursing, for example has changed in role significantly since say the 1980s and I suspect *does* warrant a higher academic bar) but a lot don't (bank staff, for example). Part of the reason for this is supply/demand; the UK produced more uni graduates (in numbers) in 2018 than it did with people with 5 GCSE's in 1988 - the 'graduate premium' increasingly worked by simply lowering the boom on non-grads on more and more jobs. ('Tis the failure of Nu Labour; they thought widening 'academic education' would make us a meritocratic society on the cheap, while totally missing the part where we needed to develop an economy which actually put them to good use).
As for 'you are overqualified'... I think that's a BS standard excuse for 'why we didn't pick you'. I know places who wanted their front-desk secretary to be a grad, as well as grads being offered minimum-wage work (once saw a sci master's being offered 'data entry' for £9.50/h and were *visibly surprised* when the prospect said no). Similar can be said for that other old chestnut, 'not enough experience' - that is also equally woolly line which can mean something, anything, nothing. But I put this down not so much the problem of the prospective employees, but the fucked-up thinking of British employers (but to be honest, British management is generally shit anyway).
One possible 'solution' was one proposed by JS Mill in On Liberty; he proposed a system of public-access examinations to grade skills etc. To be honest, if we set up a national 'intelligence test' people could take for say, £200 at the local college or even a 'Year 14' general-skills prepper I suspect some employers would be happy to accept that in lieu of a full-blown degree. KarmaPolice (talk) 21:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
i seem to have an idea there was once a 'civil service' examine. i would def do that if it were still a thing. i have enjoyed my time in governmental/regulatory departments. i have had a much better time in public sector than the private. money is not really the motivating factor for me in employment, and its nice to be able to feel you are working for the betterment of all, even if only a small cog in the overall machine. i really should start looking at volunteering again. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I took a peek at this. It seems yes, the CS exam still exists, and it's academic minimum (generally) is GCSE. However, it's got a de facto grad demand, for if you're not a grad they demand tangable 'experience' in the private sector... in roles which demands being a grad. KarmaPolice (talk) 23:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Putin ups the ante

Yeah, this is spinning out of control very quickly.[5] Definitely the clearest terms Putin has set considering the conflict. These threats come from a serious position of weakness. This WaPo article also includes two anonymous comments from Russians, one living in Moscow and one person actually party to Russian strategy. That could be a sign of Putin's weakening position in the RF, or that they are seeking to create more connections with reputable Western media services. Effectively however, this will do nothing to change the situation on the ground, this 300,000 number I think also includes reservists already on contracts, so it may not actually be that many more troops getting prepared. But that will still take time to train and equip, with a dwindling number of qualified trainers and equipment. Biden administration response to this should be to raise the stakes a little bit, signaling that if these annexation votes proceed, they will begin providing ACTAMS to the Ukrainians. Putin isn't crazy, but if he is seriously considering using a nuclear weapon, he must know that would be the line where even China might abandon him.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:47, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that Russia having to buy weapons to North Korea instead of China should be a clue of the latter's position, as well as what seems as pressuring Putin together with Turkey and India to stop the war.
To use a tactical nuke instead of a strategic ones is more plausible, even if this is not like a videogame where you can drop one where you want with no consequences and such weapons have very specific uses (troop concentrations). Still, I doubt even China would like Moscow used them less so against cities. Panzerfaust (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Putin's speech was also just unhinged.[6] This sections is just insanity:

I want to stress the following. We know that the majority of people living in the territories liberated from the neo-Nazis, and these are primarily the historical lands of Novorossiya, do not want to live under the yoke of the neo-Nazi regime. People in the Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions, in Luhansk and Donetsk saw and are seeing now the atrocities perpetrated by the neo-Nazis in the [Ukrainian-] occupied areas of the Kharkov region. The descendants of Banderites and members of Nazi punitive expeditions are killing, torturing and imprisoning people; they are settling scores, beating up and committing outrages on peaceful civilians.

Actually Orwellian.RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
The last part sounds like a confession. Villains like Putin and Trump are always projecting.UncleKrampus (talk) 21:41, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Putin has always been a risk taker. There is nothing surprising about him upping the ante. He sees losing this war badly as being a greater risk to him. He is also an ultra-nationalist who couldn't bear losing this war. ButterCashiers (talk) 22:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
his war is going too badly to negotiate a face saving exit. not so long ago we wondered what would bring the russians to the negotiating table. now putin must be wondering what could bring ukraine. hes not taking a risk upping the ante. he has no choice but to up the ante and struggle on to try and win a more favourable position. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Wars are very unpredictable things. Russia was losing badly against Nazi Germany, then they had a comeback. In the Vietnam War, an American officer said to a Vietnam officer at a peace table something to the effect that "We won every major battle against you." The Vietnamese officer replied, "That is true. It is also irrelevant." Politics enters into wars and America wanted out of the Vietnam War quagmire. Western resolve may weaken over the winter due to protests over high energy costs/shortages. I hope this war does not drag on for a long time, but I suspect it will. Putin could wreck Ukraine further and a lot of blood will be spilled. There will also be a lot of economic damage to all sides. There could be food shortages in Africa and the Middle East too. The West will probably win this war, but it will be a pyrrhic victory. ButterCashiers (talk) 23:36, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
this is not ww2 nor is it vietnam. comparisons to them shows us nothing except to highlight why comparisons to them are idiotic. the west faces a tough winter economically, and thats with tough being a relative term. no one was under any illusion it wouldnt be even before the invasion. but thats it. anger over energy prices really isnt directed at the war nor will it likely to in a way that will turn it for russia. and no a ukraine victory will not be pyrrhic in any real sense. they will have their country back after an already brutal fight - mass graves in reconquered areas can tell you that. a russian victory might be pyrrhic for them, but not really on the cards. and lets not forget the west is not fighting this war. ukraine is. sure war is unpredictable - everyone was including myself (i dont count im a dumb arse) mostly expecting ukraine at best fighting the russians to a stand still and over estimating the russian military capabilities and underestimating ukraines resolve for one. tactical nukes is all putin has left to wreck ukraine further than what russia isnt already doing, theres a big question mark on the how likely they get to come out and play - things would have to be catastrophic for russia for even putin to contemplate - like ukraine invading russia proper. i read crimea about to be retaken by the ukraine might be where nukes might be more than bluster. might. dumb comparisons and meaningless platitudes tells us something but not about the topic under discussion. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:41, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Helima Croft of the Royal Bank of Canada says the energy situation in Europe could be a multi-winter crisis. A Shell USA executive says that as Russia curbs gas supplies, many EU countries could face an energy crisis for a long time. I do suspect that the West has a stronger position overall, but Europe/USA resolve over a number of years if the war drags on is unpredictable because Western resolve could waiver due to some European countries wanting Putin's gas more than others. ButterCashiers (talk) 00:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
so tough times ahead (we already now) its not like there is not any effort to mitigate any of the issues to lessen their impact. resolve might falter. it might not. it wont help russia at this point. even if we lift sanctions right now to appease a tyrant, do you think any one in the west is just going top continue as before buying russian gas like nothing happened? it was a mistake to be so reliant on russia for our energy needs, the invasion of ukraine has rermoved any pretence that was a good idea and all the efforts we make now to find alternatives will still go on with the same urgency. russia is done as a world power. putin has ensured that. AMassiveGay (talk) 06:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
and lets not forget this sorry state of affairs is all of putins making. AMassiveGay (talk) 06:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Russia is a nuclear power that will supply energy to China/India. But it will lose a lot of young men in a pointless war so it will come out very weakened. Russia can still play the role of a spoiler and make things difficult for Western powers. It has a seat on the UN Security Council which China is not going to let get revoked and it can continue to meddle with European elections. NATO lead Ukraine down the primrose path of being able to join NATO because Ukraine is a very corrupt country with some authoritarian tendencies. There is also a lot of political turmoil in Ukraine with Russian separatists. And great powers don't like potential threats on their borders. Russia is a low trust society which experienced heavy losses in WWII and Putin is an ex-KGB officer given to conspiratorial thinking. So NATO was asking for trouble when it encouraged Ukraine to join NATO. America had the Monroe Doctrine and has a long history of meddling in Latin American politics. So we should not be amazed if Russia freaked out about Ukraine being a part of NATO. ButterCashiers (talk) 07:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

russia was/is the potential threat on peoples borders and has far more to encourage nato membership than the us has ever done. have you even looked at what putin himself has said about ukraine? remember his little essay about ukraine being part of russia? remember how nato had barely a mention? its pure imperialism. there was no interest in joining nato on ukraine's part - not before the crimean annexation at least. there is now though. nato suddenly become very popular in nations the invasion was meant to intimidate into submission. good job putin. the invasion is because former soviet states are moving beyond the influence and meddling from a russia that cant stop acting like an abusive and controlling ex boyfriend offering them nothing but threats and interference to keep them in the russian sphere. ukraine is a last ditch attempt by a power that is no longer great to regain lost glory rather than forge a new place for russia in a changed world. or are we just regurgitating russian propaganda and appeasement talking points of putins enablers in the west? because we've done that already and you are saying nothing new or true or relevent or worth engaging with. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
The British publication The Economist has an intelligence Unit, which recently released its 2021 Democracy Index, doesn’t even consider Ukraine either a full/flawed democracy. Rather, Ukraine falls into the “hybrid regime” bucket, tied for 86th place with Mexico in the democracy rankings. Transparency International, which annually ranks 180 countries based on perceived corruption, gives Ukraine poor marks. The latest version of the Corruption Perceptions Index ranks Ukraine 122nd, with a score of 32 out 100 (where a lower score indicates more public-sector corruption).
Ukraine wanted the rights of being a NATO member which includes being an uncorrupt/transparent democracy, but not the responsibilities. NATO and key Ukraine officials knew all of this, but publicly encouraged Ukraine to join NATO, which was like waving a red cape in front of the Putin/Kremlin bull. If NATO/Ukraine wanted Ukraine to be a member of NATO it should have made the process quick (And not slow and bureaucratic) and that includes Ukraine quickly cleaning up their corruption/authoritarianism. Making the process slow just increased the odds that Ukraine would be attacked by Russia. It brings me no pleasure in saying this, but these are sad facts of the situation. I do realize though that cultures generally change slow so Ukraine joining NATO quickly is an unrealistic proposition. ButterCashiers (talk) 13:21, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I think you are doing an excellent job muddling this entire situation. If you read the Economist regularly, like I do every single day, you would know that while Ukraine is a struggling democracy, it has been willing to make major changes to government and business regulations. You would also know that they have since the beginning of the conflict, supported the arming and support of the Ukrainian people against an illegal invasion.
Second, this conflict is not about NATO, and anyone who believes that hogwash justification from Putin, desperately wants to avoid the reality the RF has been careening toward fascism since 2020, and that Putin repeatedly has stated that Ukraine isn't a country, Ukrainian isn't a language, and Ukrainian culture doesn't exist. The Ukrainian government isn't a neo-Nazi regime, and it's citizens weren't being violently threatened for speaking Russian. Every single justification for this conflict is a blatant lie, and the reason he did this was because he wanted to secure his legacy of creating a larger Russian speaking world.
Ukraine has problems, literally every single former-Soviet country does, including those in NATO. Based on your conversation here, I would venture you have a positive view of Hungary and Poland, two illiberal democracies who also happen to be EU and NATO members. Just because I'm no fan of Orban or Duda, and they sometimes find themselves opposed to Western values, doesn't mean I would be ok with them being attacked by a genocidal dictator bent on eliminating all culture that isn't Russian. Stop making excuses @ButterCashiers.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:01, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Russia has been an authoritarian and aggressive country for a long time. It never fully embraced Western values and it has never had a thriving democracy. Putin's authoritarianism and aggression didn't pop out of nowhere. Putin's time in office has been a matter of Putin consolidating his autocratic power over time. If Ukraine wanted to protect itself from the much larger country of Russia, it should have cleaned up its corruption and authoritarianism faster so it could ally with NATO/Europe. Taiwan is wiser and more diplomatic in its relations with its aggressive neighbor China and it is not plagued with corruption and authoritarianism. To use an analogy, if you are in a cage with Hercules and a 600 pound gorilla, you make friends with Hercules as soon as possible. And you don't do things to upset the gorilla in the meantime. Ukraine publicly declaring its wish to join NATO while retaining much of its corruption/authoritarianism was not a wise move. Truflip98 (talk) 21:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
thats utter dogshit. russian interference in ukraine has been a factor, not the sole factor mind, in the corruption in ukraine. another motivating factor for the invasion at this time, and in the annexation of crimea is the ousting of a corrupt pro russian regime and election of a guy campaigning against corruption. russia does not want ukraine to clean up its corruption. it limits ukraine's relations with the west and pushes it ever closer to the open arms of russia. so we are condoning an invasion on the basis of ukrainian corruption and for ukraine trying to stamp it out? honestly, fuck off. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I know this "brand new" redlink is likely the same nitwit banned user, but a point since some of MAGA land is swayed by the same stupid hyper-"macho" propaganda shit. Russia is a 600 pound gorilla only if you are one of the foolish ones that actually believe in Putin's surface-level hyper-macho posturing. One of the things the Ukraine invasion showed, no matter what happens, is just how broken Russia's military actually is. No one thought that Ukraine would actually be at the state they are at 7 months out where so little territory has been captured and Ukraine actually is mounting major counteroffensives. The Russian military has been revealed to be corrupt and half toothless. Putin himself has shown to be hyper-paranoid and surrounded by yes men, which probably is a factor in the significant amount of bad decisions he is making. Remember how in the beginning Putin was putting out propaganda that the Russian army would be welcome as liberators of Ukraine? It doesn't take too many brain cells to figure out that this propaganda is incompatible with the "involuntary partial mobilization" he is now doing. No matter what the end result of the war is, it's clear that Russia's army is not top class anymore, largely due to corruption and leadership failures. No amount of riding shirtless on a horse is going to mask that. (talk) 23:04, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
35.1 is right; this war has shown up perhaps all of the weaknesses in Putin's Russia; military, economic, strategic, political, cultural, technological and even demographic. Well, mainly right - Soviet-era military bods *never* rated the USSR as equal of the West in qualitive terms but then would quote Stalin 'that quantity has a quality all of it's own'. Problem is, Russia is not the USSR and lacks the capabilities to be able to fight much longer at the current level of tempo, force and technological level. In fact, almost all the signs show of a Russia which is looking surprisingly depleted of power; instability in her 'sphere of influence', a severe difficulty in 'volunteer' recruitment, a scramble to purchase materiel, a deepening brain-drain and the start of a bite on some sanctions (precision machine parts and semiconductors most acute).
Liberal is also right to note that this 'partial mobilisation' is from a) a position of weakness and b) will not hugely effect the result (at least for now). Putin has done *everything* to avoid this step, which suggests to us just how unpopular this war actually is in Russia. This act is an admission of defeat; he's unable to fill the units with replacements without compulsion. Interestingly, the current manpower issues show the rotteness of Putin's Russia; regional boards are emptying jails to make numbers, non-Russian vassals (like the Chechens) are being queezed for all the people they'll 'give', they're offering huge incentives for 'contract work' (yet the IOUs are nearly always welched on) and despite all the assurances otherwise these folks are generally being issued obsolete kit reeking of mothballs and being sent straight to the front.
The best estimates is that for now, the plan is to mobilise men as/when needed out of the reserves to keep up current levels of forces in Ukraine. One thing I'll mention is that word of 'new units being raised' does not automatically mean *more* forces are being sent into combat; Russian/Soviet strategy is for units to fight until total exhaustion and then to be rebuilt in the rear, rather than the Western tradition of a continuous 'top-up' of units at the front (the Russian method is logistically/organisationally more simple, though does usally involve greater losses in people and kit). Even more importantly, it would appear that the Russians do not have the capabilities to logistically support more forces in Ukraine than they currently have (and in fact, their capabilities may degrade over winter).
The discussions of how and why we got to this point are, frankly irrelevant - it is what it is. And that is this; we have a Putin who's effectively chewing the carpet and threatening to incinerate European cities on almost a weekly basis, while his forces are doing pretty well in their re-enactment of Axis forces in the same locales 80 years previous. His comments etc have made it clear that he regards us as 'the enemy' and loathes and despises us (ironically, he despises us for 'being weak' but also because we stood up to him. You can't win with some people). Nothing here suggests a man who 'we can do business with', his prior form shows a man who not keep to any deals cut, it's massively unlikely this would be his 'last demand' and lastly, you gonna tell those bodies in the mass graves we cut and run? For what - we don't like being a bit cold and poorer this winter?
That leaves us with two choices; either we continue to back Ukraine (and the sacrifices this entails) until the Russians get in such a shitty position Putin is overthrown/killed, or we back off, let Kiyv falter and Putin pulls a win out of the jaws of defeat. Not only will he, but every dictator in the world be emboldened; that the West's 'staying power' was limited; so it *was* possible to openly defy the 'international order' if you can tough it out for a year or two. As I've said before; China is watching this very carefully; and her actions for the next decade shall be partly determined what she reads of our motivations/actions now. KarmaPolice (talk) 02:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @KarmaPolice nails it with that last paragraph. CCCP, DPRK and Iran are watching Western responses intently. China and NK have nuclear weapons they could deploy against Taiwan and SK respectively. Iran is in the midst of a violent crackdown and is likely in the weakest position it has been in decades. If the US and Europe are not going to enforce the security structure that was established after WWII, these authoritarians will be emboldened.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Indirectly corruption causes poverty in a country. With a per capita GNI of $3,540, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe as of 2020. In terms of corruption, Ukraine ranked 122nd out of 180 countries in 2021, the second most corrupt in Europe, with Russia the most at 136. In 2012, Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations from 43 surveyed, alongside Colombia and Brazil. United States diplomats described Ukraine under Presidents Kuchma (in office from 1994 to 2005) and Yushchenko (in office from 2005 to 2010) as a kleptocracy, according to WikiLeaks cables.
Europe is going through a recession and an energy crisis. America is already in a recession or soon will be.
Whether Ukraine wins or loses this war, it is going to remain a poor and corrupt country. Countries don't go from corrupt and poor countries to being thriving and transparent democracies quickly. But if anyone can give me an instance of this happening, I am all ears. I don't see investors or bankers pouring money into Ukraine anytime soon. And foreign governments can only do so much due to political constraints. Viewsridge (talk) 22:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
And? What's your point? We should just let Russia butcher Ukrainians? In Kharkiv oblast they've found 18 torture chambers. Abandoning Ukraine means the unnecessary deaths of thousands. Reforms come after victory.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I like the bit where they cite people who were kicked out in the 2014 protests/revolution (much of it due to corruption), which incidently led to the Russian totally-not-an-invasion of the Crimea and the two puppet Donesk territories.
Anyway, your BS don't answer sod all in the pure realpolitik of the situation. If Ukraine falls, NATO loses, Russia wins and Europe shall be in a weaker position for 'the next round' (of which *will* happen, most likely with Moldova). If the USA deliberately pulls the plug, it's a near cert Europe shall feel utterly betrayed (which means chances are Europe shall tell Washington to fuck off re: 'standing up to China'. Even the UK might give a humourless smile and shrug, saying their hands are full). As Russia weakens, she becomes more and more a Chinese vassal. Therefore, making sure Putin loses indirectly weakens China on the global stage. KarmaPolice (talk) 08:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
these trolls dont give shit about the consequences or ukraine or the wider world. all this invasion is for them is a chance to associate joe biden specifically and western liberals generally with an unjust and costly war that was provoked by the west and nato by accident or design, representing western hubris, hypocrisy, aggression, weakness, etc. an unpopular war is a fantastic opportunity to pile on to the man in charge, and with this one there is no nato troops on the ground so its not unpatriotic to attack everything about the war and its conducts and by either side.
of course they have to say black is white and white is black for it to work. putins russia was forced into action by western and nato aggression, in defence of ethnic russians from villainous corrupt nazis running ukraine. the sanctions dont work, are not justified and putin is laughing as he is cutting of the gas and we face an energy crisis and recession for backing corrupt nazis against the wily and stoic strength of putin with his traditional values and russian masculinity for reasons of russophobia, and the ideology of the perverts and freaks that are destoying america and the west. the course of the war is not of much interest, just that it best drags on and on to really let us feel the recession biting. knowing that the corrupt nazis are only still in it because we supplied their arms as you sit in the cold winter with heating of and bills piling up. next time you a polling station remember biden + corrupt nazis = recession.
the latest new, the latest russian failing, mass grace found in areas taken from retreating russians say nothing. ukraine actually winning, and maybe quickly? unthinkable. russian massive mobilisation effort in response to russian collapse is not desperation its just russia getting angry and this thing will run and run more death and destruction for the aid of corrupt nazis. and we get a recession because biden backs nazis.
and wouldnt have happened under trump. thats the other thing. these trolls are all noted putin admirer and dictator's penis envy sufferer trump fans because of course they are.
for future discussions on this conflict can we all agree any talk of ukrainian corruption, nato provocation and recession should not be responded to? they are the red flags for this trolling. anything we can say has been said already so delete, collapse or ignore but dont engage - even if it seems like a genuine post. as long as the war goes on, more threads will arise and these troll(s) will appear and we will be here again disputing the same stuff to no avail like now and the times before this. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
This rings especially true to new users with redlinks who post dubious takes in Saloon Bar. If you find a redlink user suspicous, report to a moderator in ATIM or take the action yourself and delete or collapse (ignoring doesn't work if people who are new to Saloon Bar don't realize who the usual troll is). This has been going on for a while. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Speaking purely personally, I actually do find a little bit of troll-watching fruitful. Even through all their BS, they cannot help show their true motivations and thought-patterns (often 'not much' is the correct answer on this) and it does pique my interest in an informational way. Though I don't really 'engage' with their talking-points in a manner they like, more like to poke them with a pointy stick and document the ouchies. Lastly, I find them (usually easy) target practice for my arguments - if I put my case to them and they either ignore, tangent or simply start with the word salads it normally means I'm ready to try it with real people. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
trolls arnt listening to criticism they are trolls. they only there to annoy, disrupt, and spam truth bombs they think we cant handle. sometimes hidden as debate sometimes not, if you respond at all its victory for them however dumb or pointless. unpleasant and ugly arguments not trolling if they defend them. awful people defending awful positions are awful people but not trolling per say. stupid people making stupid arguments are not trolls they just people. might be disruptive and abusive and ban worthy. ken the chat box made of dogshit is not really a troll. they are just a dumb attention seeker whose arrogance is mixed with stupidity so he doesnt listen to criticism and he does know to answer anyway. hes got talking points. he'll just repeat them. and never amend or update them. it feels wrong to mock the guy because there something not quite right bout him. its just hes a fucking awful human being with some awful views on people and subjects his mental short comings dont earn him a pass. do not engage once identified. it only encourages him.
tl,dr - do not feed the trolls. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
The responses aren't ever for the troll's benefit, it's for the lurkers. To show that yes, there *are* legitimate responses to their dogshit and dribble (that is, when it's not simply nuts). Put bluntly, I use them as target practice and don't let them dominate my bandwidth; if they become completely nonsensical, insulting, a broken record or simply stupid, I'll call it out and leave them to be banned. Like the point above; I was more using their shitty little 'talking point' to sharpen my 'realpolitik potted argument for supporting Ukraine' than anything else. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:06, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Libs of Tiktok

I searched through the Wiki and even the discussion section and to my surprise found zero mention of this Twitter account. Libs of TikTok has been a very big player this year in inciting outrage and panic in regards to LGBT people and LGBT issues with their queerphobic rhetoric online. Mainstream media outlets have talked about them quite a bit. I think they warrant their own page on here. — Unsigned, by: Retrogressive02 / talk / contribs

Texas just passed a social media anti-censorship law. The conservative U.S. Supreme Court will no doubt rubber stamp it. Other GOP states are in the midst of creating similar laws to the Texas law. ButterCashiers (talk) 00:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Well, calling it anti-censorship might be giving it more credit that it deserves. There are a number of requirements for a platform to be subjected to this law, namely it only applies to those with more than 50 million monthly users, which makes me think it is made to not apply to platforms like Gab and Truth Social and allow those on the far-right to return to Twitter, and thus it's not designed because of any ideological opposition to censorship or one of the forms it takes online. Still, would be funny if this destroys Twitter, Facebook/Instagram and all those disasters, would make me think much better of the law, doubt this will happen, but one can dream. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 12:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
The thing is, the bill doesn't prevent social media from banning illegal activity. And illegal activity actually covers a lot of the reasons why social media bans extremist political trolls. Libs of Tiktok was banned for harassing hospitals. That's potentially illegal activity. Donald Trump got banned for arguably inciting violence. That's potentially illegal activity. So, basically, even if this holds up, the impact on "CONSERVATIVE FREEDUM" will be more limited then I think they realize, it only opens up anything prohibited in most social media TOS that is actually not illegal under US law -- non-violent hate speech and COVID-19 misinformation, for instance. (As well as possibly certain non-right-wingy viewpoints, too. If someone, say, was pro-nudism, and started flooding Republican politicians' Facebook feeds with pictures of Da Boobies and Da Weenies in support of their stance, I wonder how they'd react? That's not "unlawful expression" either... but prohibited by many social media TOS at this point in time.) The fact that it only applies to residents in the state of Texas complicates things as well. It's obviously a huge bureaucratic headache for social media, of course, as written.
What this also means, should this actually pass Supreme Court muster, is that certain social media platforms actually known for censoring people for political viewpoints (such as, say, Donald Trump's Truth Social) can't grow over 50 million and continue their behavior, in Texas at least. Tee hee.
I expect if this actually passes Supreme Court muster, "blue states" will come up with their own "social media regulations" too, which will make things fun for them... (talk) 14:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Truth Social surpassing 50 million monthly, now that's a joke. Yeah, you're likely right, this wont do what extremists think it will do. It won't even stop what they are currently doing with covid misinformation, as they are not even removing those (At least in Facebook and Twitter, I think, I do remember some more infamous antivax videos being removed from YouTube), but rather are putting what essentially is warning labels in the post indicating that it has been debunked by fact-checkers. Still, it allows the Texas governor to look like they are fighting against Big Tech, which should be helpful in elections when the conservative base is growing increasingly disaffected with social media moderation, which I guess is all that matter at the end of the day. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 14:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
It isn't a first amendment violation for companies to manage the users on their on platform. All of these laws are stupid, and these disgusting lying troglodytes like LibsOfTikTok shouldn't have access to the internet.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @RipCityLiberal yes, it's a First Amendment violation, and it's their server anyway, if you want to use our server comply with our terms or get the boot. But the people supporting this don't think that, they think their First Amendment rights are being violated. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 17:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

You just contradicted yourself. I'm saying companies should have the right to manage their user base and remove users who violate their terms. It isn't a 1A violation remove users.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
@RipCityLiberal As far as I'm aware (and I could be wrong!), LoTT aggregates videos from the weirdos over at TikTok. At no point does LoTT "lie", every video is real and not excessively edited into something vastly different from the original posting. I don't know of any video that was, e.g., obviously intended as satire that LoTT tried to say was literal, even though Poe's Law suggests that should've happened at some point. It'd be like, IDK, a person collecting random videos that are produced by a bunch of Jesus Freak summer camps that'd normally only be viewed by a few dozen other Freakers, and compiling the most bizarre ones into one place for hundreds of thousands of atheists to mock or get riled up about. Cortex (pester) 08:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
@CorruptUserMy understanding is that LoTT takes video's wildly out of context, presents accusations from delusional conservatives as facts. Two specific lies I know of started with that account: 1)That drag queens were performing sexual content to children at "Drag Queen Story Hours", grooming them to be gay. 2) That school districts were accommodating "furries" at schools by having open air litter boxes. Besides being not based on any truth, they are specifically target to appeal to peoples concerns about children being sexually abused,(which curiously happens much more frequently in religious settings) is designed to accuse members of those communities of sexual deviancy and threats to traditional values. While I'm certain not every LoTT post is like this, the purpose of the account is to introduce a few leftist outliers as mainstream, then issue a call to arms against anyone left of, "America is a Christian nation, and white people should rule it." It's obvious to anyone that has grown up with social media that is how to get the agenda across.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
@CorruptUser I will assume your argument is from ignorance and not malice, but no. Libs of Tiktok is a professional bullshit peddler, and a lot of the "weirdos", "groomers" and "libs" she accuses of pedophilia, child grooming and mutilation are people like transgender and gay schoolteachers who came out to their students, doctors that provide gender affirming care (NOT SURGERY), and otherwise normal transgender and LGBT rights activists. Look through her account, almost none of the shit she claims is "insane" or "demented" is actually that outlandish. She's just an idiot, fearmongering about LGBT people to an audience fully willing and able to act on said fear. It's not a coindicence that there were bomb threats to the Boston Children's Hospital IMMEDIATELY after she made content on them "preforming hysterectomies on children" (Literally a flat out lie), or that her publishing the EXACT addresses of places that host drag shows resulted in members of the Proud Boys showing up and trying to force their way into the venues. This isn't a First Amendment thing, LoTT is actively and directly causing anti trans and anti gay violence through her platform. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't recall the Boston Children's hospital bomb threat, so I looked it up on google. Apparently, it's not a complete lie; the hospital's website said they were performing genital surgeries on 17 year olds until LoTT made a stink. It is an exaggeration to call a 17 year old a child, of course, assuming LoTT used that word. I'm not sure when gender reassignment surgeries should be performed, though I do think there should be some limit. 12 seems too young to me for genital surgery, 18+ is fine, but I don't know if 16 or 17 is fine or not. Maybe it should be the same as the state's age of consent. Which in Mass would be... 16 years old. So I guess 17 is fine for Boston? Cortex (pester) 05:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't know the details, but I'm going to hazard a guess they operated on the 17 y/o with parental consent (as well as a load of medical hoops too). Which ironically would piss off right-wingers too; by saying it can't be done period is basically saying the 'parental rights' over their possession kid is not absolute (a line they like to peddle). KarmaPolice (talk) 07:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
There also needs to be discussion on what those hoops should be. Years ago, for adults, it was "spend a year socially transitioning, and if that isn't enough spend a year on HRT before surgeries". So it was basically 2 years before you get the surgeries, which I think is enough time to weed out anyone who would simply grow out of it. I don't have a problem with kids socially transitioning if that's what they want, it's a question of when hormones begin. Giving a 10 year old puberty blockers makes absolutely no sense to me, and I am absolutely disgusted by anyone suggesting that hormones are completely reversible; you can't tell me anabolic steroids will permanently change my face unless I'm biologically female. Cortex (pester) 21:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
However, forcing a person to 'transition' into a body they utterly loathe (ie normal puberty) I suspect shall also be absolutely hell on mental health. Just imagine the situation; 'yes, we both know that you don't want it and I could stop that, but I'm not allowed. You've got to go through all that, then we can go through a series of very invasive, expensive and time-consuming treatments which shall - if we are lucky - counteract those things which shall happen to you in the coming years'.
The critical issue is that 'discussion' cannot happen (at least not in the USA) because one side won't even accept the premise of discussion. It's like trying to debate global warming with rent-a-hacks from the Heartland Institute. KarmaPolice (talk) 23:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Except that side is 60% of the population. CorSock (talk) 17:07, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
A majority support for a view does not make it is the *correct* one. If you'd done such polling in c1960 regarding Civil Rights I bet you'd have scored the desires of Dr King etc as being a distinctly minority affair. And as I pointed out, you can't have a debate on the hows/whys/whens of transitioning when the step before - that trans persons do exist and no, it is not a perversion or somehow 'indoctrination' - is not accepted by a (admittedly large) minority. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:00, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

should i get a doctorate degree in psychology or should i listen to everyone and just get a bachelor's degree ( i'm 16 if that helps)

personally i want to go for it, but i'm just unsure

also i'm new here so sry if i don't know how to edit correctly — Unsigned, by: Wheelsontheancom / talk / contribs

It's not unusual for undergraduates to change their major after taking a variety of courses and finding something more appealing. You don't need to decide on a doctorate yet. Bongolian (talk) 17:09, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
You got plenty of time to choose. It also depends on career goals. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Doctoral student here. You will need to complete your bachelor's degree before you can enroll in a doctorate program, so you should start there. As others have said, it is common for students to change their major early in their studies, so I would recommend taking a few different subjects you are interested in and seeing what sticks. You can decide whether you want to go onto to postgraduate study as you approach graduation. I started out taking psychology and economics, ended up majoring in politics and economics and am now completing a PhD in philosophy. Psych is a fascinating subject and there are certainly opportunities for psych grads. Be aware though that psych is also an extremely popular subject, so there is quite a bit of competition for those opportunities. 2001:4530:2:201:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFE7 (talk) 21:42, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Also if you are indeed able to get a PhD without a bachelor's in psychology, you may face increased skepticism about your qualifications because of 1) your young age, 2) the fact that psychology is not a hard science and so more difficult to prove qualifications, and 3) the overall replication crisis within psychology. Bongolian (talk) 00:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The PETA files


So, PETA wants a ban on sex for men that eat meat to reduce meat consumption...

Is it normal that I get brainfarts from this dribble? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:47, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

i can't wrap my head around this shit what's next a ban of living near animals too? god this shit makes my head hurt. wheelson 18:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

its peta so probably. thats their thing and all. but this is a publicity stunt from a group known for their publicity stunts. this one is a fairly innocuous one and not just by the standards of peta. mileage may vary on ones views on meat consumption. i eat a not massive amount of meat but you dont need to be a militant vegan to recognise meat consumption in the west could be a bit less, and cow farts (or burps even) are actually major contributor to climate change. but you know, its peta whose previous tactics mean their stunts only draws publicity to peta not their cause. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Studies vary though as far as gender comparison goes. The Guardian did report on the Plos One study PETA used, but they also reported on a study in the Journal for Industrial Ecology that seemed to find little difference in greenhouse gases between men and women as far as diet goes. (In that study, men emitted more greenhouse gases primarily due to transportation differences.)
Emissions wise, meat based diets are bad for your carbon footprint mainly because of a few heavy offenders, primarily beef. The supposed "toxic masculinity" of, er, merely using a grill (WTF PETA?) would not be that terrible, emissions wise, if all the beef on that grill was replaced with chicken. Vegetarian diets are a little better than chicken greenhouse gas wise, but not by enough to get a tither over.
It's PETA, though. They've been the personification of "you're not helping" from the beginning. (talk) 18:47, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Link viewable from UK: https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ban-meat-men-from-sex-peta/
Who doesn't like a bit of mild misandry in the evening? Basically, the idea is that guys are so propelled by their dicks they'll cave if made to choose between muff and a burger. Clearly, they've not met Gay... KarmaPolice (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
men are propelled by their dick. actually not that interested in muff and i loathe burgers. still eat meat but my choice of sexual partner tends to like...meat. like alot. im not the target of such a campaign. i dont usually discuss what i had for dinner when on the pull either and im not sure i would be interested if a potential liason had if the other party had this as the deal breaker. i relegate political discussions for pillow talk at best. you wont be cock blocked if you find out they are a terrible person after the fact. i had one encounter with a guy with large swastika tattoos but the circumstances of that one was the fault of a third party and i didnt have my specs on AMassiveGay (talk) 21:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
'I didn't have my specs on'... I wonder how many things can be excused successfully by this line? KarmaPolice (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
PETA is a PR disaster for animal rights and plant-based dieters since they have made it their organization's mission to be a living caricature of what drives people away from animal rights and vegan/vegetarian activism.Ryan1257 (talk) 20:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
My vegan sibling thinks they're a false flag funded by the meat industry. The simple fact they think they're a crackpot org when they themselves decry the 'oppression of bees' and picket petting zoos says a lot. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
outrageous stunts can be a good tactic when done right, not sure if peta has had any real effect on their cause. they have enough support to keep doing them though, so maybe for their coffers at least. but for an animal rights organisation they spend an awful lot of time demanding the death of animals. whatever rationale they have had for some such demands, its not really good for the optics for the less motivated folk concerned about animal welfare AMassiveGay (talk) 21:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I'll put it simply; PETA is a cult, cults fuck people up inside and cults normally shove the 'general cause' backwards in the eyes of the Big Public. KarmaPolice (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Russian anti-war protests

I hear that not only resulted in over a thousand arrests yesterday but thousands of Russians fleeing the country.

All because of Putin wanting to send more soldiers to their deaths. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 19:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

1800 is the number arrested I'm hearing, often times military age men are getting their summons once they're processed. Several images across the internet show border check points for Georgia, Mongolia have long queues. Also flights to visa-free countries sold out, and future flights are up to 3,000 euros. Won't change a thing on the ground though. It probably isn't a threat to Putin yet, until they start drafting military age men from wealthy/powerful/connected families.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
There's also news of an influx of Russians trying to get across the Finnish border. Scandinavian commentators think the protests will amount to very little, because it is the long-established norm for Russian protests to be crushed by the police before they grow large enough to be a political threat.
Another kind of commentator on Russia, Vlad Vexler thinks Putin's government is in a double bind of sorts. The population is not exactly eager to go to war. While there's a majority who passively support the government and its "special military operation", the stability of the whole regime is based on the population being passive, agreeing to let the government do anything it wants so long as they are able to make a living and not endanger themselves. That stability is threatened if the population ever becomes as fired up and "active" as it needs to be to be willing to fight and die in wars en masse. Putin's regime now needs the population both active (motivated to go to war) and passive (then simply letting the government do as it wishes) at the same time, and signals a wish to have its cake and eat it too in the form of only a "partial" mobilization, a stance which is probably a lie. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 20:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Not sure what Putin is hoping this mobilization will even do. From what I understand, numbers arn't the issue. Its leadership, logistics, and morale. All three will be left in even WORSE shape with a huge influx of untrained, enslaved solders. Revolverman (talk) 22:26, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
It would seem that the Ukraine-Russia prisoner exchange that was announced today could not have come at a worse time for Russia. 100 Azov members + 115 other Ukraine soldiers + 10 foreigners (220 total) for 55 Russian-aligned soldiers + Putin's friend Viktor Medvedchuk (who had been charged with treason by Ukraine, and is not likely to still be of any strategic value to Putin). The math of the prisoner swap would seem to be friend-of-Putin (FOP) = 165 soldiers. This has to be bad for recruiting soldiers in Russia (your life is worth 1/165 of a FOP). But to top it off, it has outraged the hardline Putin supporters on social media because of the 100 Azov members released. Bongolian (talk) 00:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I'll admit, those 100 wouldn't be on the top of my list of 'people to save' either...
Anyway, in one respect, Putin is 'superior' to almost all his Russian predecessors; he's always kept the external door open. Malcontents could nearly always leave if they didn't like it, which meant they weren't stuck within Russia complaining and the state didn't need to run a large gulag system either. The next sign of 'difficulties' internally shall be the slamming shut of this door; that the brain-drain has become too serious ie: functioning of economy/services and/or the drain on manpower is becoming acute. KarmaPolice (talk) 03:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
It seems "the math" is actually that "friend of Putin" = 200 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians.[7] Ukraine also got 5 commanders back for 55 Russian soldiers. The final 10 released being foreign volunteer fighters for Ukraine (including some who had been sentenced to death in separatist "courts" after capture) whose release was brokered by Saudi Arabia somehow.
From other news, it seems the real target of Russia's mobilization is over 1 million, that regions are pushed to get a certain number each and don't care who they end up recruiting, old and sick and militarily inexperienced and also students being forcibly enlisted. And the equipment they get is terrible. And they will probably barely have any training. Further, now that the "deal" or social contract between Putin's government and the people is broken, support for the war may be sharply declining.
So why the whole mobilization mess? Putin simply had to do something. Nationalist hardliners to the right of him were getting louder and more critical and demanding "getting tough", and increasingly blaming Putin's government for failure in Ukraine. Putin needs to placate the extremists who may, if they end up hating him, possibly try to depose him (to put in place a new fascist dictatorship). It's part of a larger mess which may possibly lead to Russian civil war in the future. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm seeing reports of 1.2m men by Nov 10th. Chances are, the vast majority of these shall be either fodder-quality infantry or scratch-quality tank units with tech levels of Vietnam. I truly hate to say this, but we need to start shipping lots and lots of mortars, cluster bombs, machine-guns and concrete pre-fabs to Kyiv because it appears the new Russian 'grand plan' is going to be human wave offensives (troops of that poor quality simply won't be capable of much else) and when it comes down to it, Russia can outnumber Ukraine 3:1 on such a war.
If we take out the 'peacetime compliment' and the ones which appear to have been raised specially for the invasion to date, this extra corresponds to about 12% of the 'younger male' demographic cohort of Russia proper, about 65% of the regular (pre-invasion) reserves or about 1½ years of 18-year olds raised by normal conscription. KarmaPolice (talk) 18:29, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Protests in Iran

Are we finally going to see a secular Iran? GeeJayK (talk) 19:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, speaking purely based on anectodal evidence, I'm a bit upset at hjow most feminists I know are just ignoring what's going on, some of them abusing of whataboutism, mentioning how things are bad for women in Saudi Arabia, a western ally, and no one seems to care. GeeJayK (talk) 19:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Well, they seem to care... only when they can use them in a "gotcha".Ryan1257 (talk) 20:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
things are bad for women in saudi. we should not ignore iran's treatment of women and lgbt and foreign nationals and a whole lot of people, but iran is already on the wests shit list and we dont supply them with arms.
irans had violent protests before though and i cant say ive looked beyond the headlines for these ones. is there reason to think this will play out any different? are sanctions biting so hard that the regime is on the verge of collapse? i posted something in blogs not so long ago about iran women needing to prove their virginity to men who have no such requirement. a secular iran still might not mean liberation for iranian womenAMassiveGay (talk) 21:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there reason to think this will play out any different? The Guardian wrote an article on it. "The harsh truth is that though these are important protests, they are likely to be crushed by the still powerful regime." GeeJayK (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Cory Rants a Bit

I miss the old days, when the US was a barely functioning Kleptocracry. 14 years ago, Governor Blagojavich (spelling?) basically sold Obama's senate seat to the highest bidder. We all knew that politicians did that all the time, but as long as they didn't get caught we could all pretend everything was all ok. And Blagojavich was stupid enough to get caught on tape, so the government agencies had to take him down. Today, would he have gone to prison? We have a Speaker of the House blatantly abusing her power for her husband to purchase stocks as well as avoid any penalty for drunk driving, a former President stealing classified documents without actually having declassified them, and the current President's son recorded himself committing numerous felonies, and so on. This is nothing new, of course, but at least back then, the politicians made a better effort to hide all of this from us so we could pretend 'murrica was the same place that our daily mantras made it out to be. "Liberty and Justice for all", my anus. And while Orange-man is partially to blame, he's only a very small partial. It's the job of the media to constantly hound politicians when they accidentally let the curtain drop, but I don't blame the media, I blame the public itself. Because it's the public who holds the media accountable. And for whatever reason, we the public seem content with a media that will blatantly lie to us as long as it tells us what we want to hear. Cortex (pester) 08:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Hard to argue with any of that. Depressing times. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Afraid of hatred from the screens, we no longer care for anything. Slow to feel but quick to hate, we make a mockery of our own fate. And now we cry and dance in time, as we wait to see if we've finally crossed a line. Will we fall and be forgotten? Or shall we spin the wheel of fate again to test our fortune? Of course the answer was obvious all along: everyone but me was wrong. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 16:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Actually, I don't think the majority are content; think a lot of Americans are fatalistic, resigned and tired of the constant swirling crud and pointless ideological arguments. That many have withdrawn into their 'own bubbles' and live their lives the best they can despite said crud - to lapse into sociological jargon, a lot of folks have become atomised. It's correct, though to ID the Orange One as a *symptom* as well as a *cause* of this malaise; a 'healthy' society wouldn't have even allowed him to get to the ballot, let alone elected.
Though I do caution about putting on the ol' nostalgia goggles. It seems to be a general lament of very generation that 'everything sucks now' and the previous bit was a golden age. Now, sometimes 'declines' are true (it's hard to argue that the general 'skill level' of UK Ministers has not been on a downward slope since 2010) but it does help to occasionally refresh oneself of the scandals of the past to maintain perspective. KarmaPolice (talk) 16:14, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
We do have a page for that. Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Blague-o had his sentence commuted by transactional tRump, so that tells you they're on the same team, Team Autocracy. Bongolian (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Just saying, America has only honestly been semi-good for all citizens since the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act. We have only been a functioning multi-ethnic Democracy for less than 100 years. America, as a system of government dedicated to the advancement of all citizens, is the best it has been, ever, in the past 50 years. And it still has quite a ways to go.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
It's funny you cite those acts, passed in 1964/1965. The baby boomers (that is, the group most stereotypically associated with hankering for a lost "Golden age" while claiming the United States of the present has been almost irreparably corrupted) would have been born before that.-Flandres (talk) 22:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Nobody pines for the days when they were toddlers, though. The Boomers first came of age in 64/65, and for them the good ol' days were the 70s. My good ol' days were the 90s, when you could fly on a plane and the pilot would let you see the cockpit, the cold war was finally over, it looked like Israel/Palestine were finally ready for a peace deal, Apartheid had just ended, the internet held so much promise even if you needed a second phone line to use it, etc. Then 9/11 ruined things. Cortex (pester) 22:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
And on top of that, UN intervention was looking promising in Cambodia and American intervention in Yugoslavia was unambiguously for the better. There were some bad misfires between them that (Somalia, the UN failing Rwanda), but those made it look like intervention was increasingly helpful. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
While it is true that people rarely pine for when they were toddlers, it’s not unheard of that some place “the good old days” at the time when they were children, as in the “When I was a kid…” rhetoric. Others place these “good old days” at the time of their youth (late teens/early twenties). Hence you get different “good old days”, depending on which baby boomers you ask, not least depending on whether you ask older boomers born in the latter 1940s, or younger ones born in the 1950s, not to mention near the formal cutoff point in 1964.
I have rarely found the 1970s defined as “the good old days” among the boomers I’ve encountered, who tend to be the older kind. They typically point to either their childhood in the 1950s, particularly if they’re more conservative (“before everything went wrong” - Trump has done this), or the 1960s, when the economy in my neck of the woods was booming and they would’ve been in their teens and twenties.
The 1970s, by contrast, seem to be remembered for oil crises, high inflation and interest rates (not all bad, btw), leading to economic and general uncertainty. Some see the 1970s as the betrayal of the promise they saw in the 1960s, others emphasise political radicalisation and fragmentation. While there might be nostalgia for 1970s culture (e.g. music and film), it seems more of an exception, rather than an expression of that decade as “the good old days”. ScepticWombat (talk) 04:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Note that much may also depend on local circumstances. While the post war economic boom was on full tilt in the US in the 1950s, it only really got going in parts of Western Europe in the 1960s, which also affects the perception of the decades. ScepticWombat (talk) 05:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
True. Places like the UK didn't have the severe societal stress of Civil Rights or Vietnam either, which marks the 60s more alluring (and we had the societal stress of Malaya and Suez in the 50s, which made it less so). And the constant slating about the British 70s as being a complete basketcase by the rightists (mainly to justify/excuse/worship Thatcher) does actually mask the fact that if you actually question folks who were around then generally felt of them being personally rather decent. If you asked Soviet Boomers, I am almost sure they'd say the 70s were the zenith.
There's also a tendency to usually recall your childhood/young adulthood as 'the best'. As a kid, you didn't have to worry about all the adult stuff and were mainly oblivious to news etc - much of your life was play. As a youth/young adult, you had your first fun forays in adultness (like sex), pop culture (which you 'got' to some extent), your body at the height of fuckability and a general lack of responsibility. Those times will seem 'the best' almost regardless to the material/political situation of the time. Interestingly, I have a rule of thumb is that if you don't buy the above line, chances are you had a fairly crap youth. KarmaPolice (talk) 06:17, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Neptune's Rings

I was actually surprised to see that picture being Neptune, since we never knew that Neptune had rings.

But as I saw the above article again today, I thought: "The nutters already disclassified the planets that NASA discovered a few years ago. They're probably doing the same thing right now with this discovery". So are they already saying dumb stuff like "It's just a lightbulb in a dark room", or something like that, while riding the Nibiru train again like few years ago? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 17:06, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Rings around Neptune were suspected since the 1970s, and observed by Voyager in the late 1980s. See Rings of Neptune. Nowhere Man (talk) 13:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Bullshit referendum in occupied Ukraine


Crimea all over again but with active armed conflict. How long will this military occupation go on before Russia loses control over the situation? --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 00:36, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

When they continue the mass conscriptions and every 'Russian' in these areas realises their fate is to be poorly-armed fodder for Putin's hubris? KarmaPolice (talk) 08:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Or as I like to call it- Sending people to die for a lie. Don't forget the political refugees fleeing Russia. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 12:19, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I added the referendum to the Ukraine article. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 22:26, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

For weather information, see Weather Underground

Contesting collapse; Fiona crippled an entire power grid, caused 19 deaths and is the most destructive Atlantic storm of 2022. This is not ordinary "Weather Underground". Andrew5 (talk) 12:33, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Greg Abbott is a...

little piss baby according to reddit.

Discuss amongst yourselves. MaillardFillmore (talk) 16:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I say- UnAmerican racist traitorous Scum bag. My opinion though. Funny how Democrats has actual reasons to call the GOP traitors but the GOP calls Democrats traitors without reason. The Democrat party is not perfect but at least we didn't launch an insurrection and terrorist attack. --Trans Zombie Queen (talk) 18:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
The whooshing sound you may hear is the point flying right over your head. Click the link, and you might find some bold text saying
To be clear, the mod team is of sound mind and body, and we are explicitly censoring the viewpoint that Greg Abbott isn't [redacted]
It's a trap, in the context of a Texas law forbidding censorship of viewpoints by websites such as reddit. The ball is now in the Lone Star State's court, and any advocate of the deeply stupid law will ignore these reddit shenanigans, if they have any speck of sense. MaillardFillmore (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)