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Welcome, BoN
This is a place for general chit-chat about virtually anything that doesn't fit anywhere else.
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The Bar
(talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (*cough*) (hic)

Pointless poll

What is your favorite breed of goat?

Nigerian Dwarf3Vote
Whichever one lets me take them home on a Saturday night22Vote
Greg Minnaar2Vote

What is the dumbest thing someone has said about the moon?

It can affect our personality21Vote
We never been on the moon84Vote
It's not real17Vote
It's flat5Vote
It's made of goat cheese8Vote
There is a secret Chinese COVID creation factory on the dark side of the moon22Vote

What is the dumbest COVID-19 Denialist argument?

99% Survival Rate34Vote
Fake News4Vote
Chinese Bioweapon (at least it can work in the real world)6Vote
It is 5G Cell Towers79Vote
It is a depopulation plot4Vote
It is the flu rebranded as COVID7Vote

How should the US have handled Afghanistan?

Stay forever6Vote
Stayed until it's the next President's problem2Vote
Left after killing bin Laden (in another country)33Vote
Left in early 2002, after Taliban was toppled 19Vote
Never gone in; extensive bombing campaign6Vote
Never gone in; ignored it entirely106Vote
Let's just enjoy some goat kebabs16Vote
To do list


My horrible boss told me I'll go to hell...[edit]

...for not believing in her Chinese folk gods and having the audacity to say they don't exist. Spud (talk) 11:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you may have mentioned your horrible boss before. To be honest, I didn't know there was a Chinese version of Hell. It's fortunate that threats of Hell are equably meaningless independent of the source. EDIT .. Well, that's a "surprise" DiyuWikipedia - it's just as barbarically improbable as the Christian one. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:15, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
When a coworker brings up God(s) or politics, I immediately change the topic to something embarrassingly personal and/or TMI, like my parents' deaths or my own recent medical issues. I then continue to discuss that topic, monologuing if they continue on the prior topic. Just steamroll the fuck out of them while staying polite. Most seem to now understand I have no desire to discuss these topics in the workplace. Good public speaking and a fearless glibness help here. Also, since this is your direct supervisor, pulling out your phone and politely ask them to repeat what they just said into you recording app may curtail further input on their end. Semipenultimate (talk) 17:50, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
If that hell was real, we we all keep you company there. <3 LongStylus (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
(speaking as someone who did burn stuff and incense for my grandpa as a Chinese folk ritual) She better stock up on joss paperWikipedia if she wants to be proven correct. And maybe she'll leave some dumplings and apples behind, you know, if she's really a good person unlike you. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Spud you’re going to hell because you won’t join the Support Chat with the rest of the Board members so we can schedule a new meeting! Save your soul, Spud! Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 23:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
@DuceMoosolini Thanks for giving me a much needed boot up the arse there. Hallelujah! I'm saved! I am now back on Discord (under my real name, which you might remember). Spud (talk) 06:11, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
What about the belief in reincarnation?
Given how many deities there are (including those of Doggerland and other ancient populations) there must be many different hells (and the Vikings would regard the 'all constantly singing the praises of the Christian god as some version of hell).
'My belief systems encourages me to be polite about other people's faiths and to be courteous and helpful in general to all.' will cover many situations. Anna Livia (talk) 09:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
Chinese (Buddhist) Hell can be fun… at least for visitors.[1] Bongolian (talk) 21:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
@Spud I don’t envy your position. If you don’t mind my asking: is this the first time you’ve told your boss you’re a nonbeliever? LeucippusSalva veritate 21:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

@Leucippus No, Far from it. It's also not the first or even the second time she's told me the gods can see me and I've retorted with, "They don't exist!"

I've never made any secret about my views on religion from my bosses. When I first came to Taiwan to teach at my current school, they asked me if I wanted to go to church on Christmas Day. I said no and I explained why.

One day, I found out that my school had a copy of the book The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible on display. I begged my bosses to take the book intended to fill kids; heads with pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical nonsense off their shelves. In spite of the fact that I'd earlier told them about Young Earth Creationism and they'd laughed at how ridiculous it was, they refused. I offered to buy it from them. They refused. So I stole it, took it home and destroyed it. They never missed it. A few months later, I found out that the book they'd had on display since I came there, Dinosaurs by Design by Duane Gish was not, as I had always assumed, a book about making models. I took that home and destroyed it too.

A few years ago, I was told I might be having one-to-one lessons with a man who was being sent to the West as a Buddhist missionary. I made it clear I would only be teaching him under protest because I didn't want to help with the spreading of any religion. My stupid male boss even made me look online to see if there are any English textbooks specifically designed for Buddhist missionaries. Of course, there aren't. I'm happy to say those lessons never happened.

Long term users may remember the adult woman student who made me wear my wizard costume for our one-to-one lesson on Halloween 2019. We were reading a simplified version of Anne of Green Gables. The word "Sunday school" came up and I had to explain what that meant. She asked if I'd ever been to Sunday school and what my religious beliefs were. At that point, my horrible boss was lurking in the doorway. I said, "I'm a secular humanist. I don't believe in God", my horrible boss laughed at that, "I believe in people. I believe we only have one life and we should try to be good to other people while we're here." My horrible boss was smirking because I have not gone out of my way to be good to her. For her benefit, I added, "But if someone isn't nice to me, I don't have to be nice to them because nothing bad is going to happen to me after I die."

So that's the complete history. It struck me as funny that within a month of certain Christian trolls here telling me that I, and other RationalWiki editors, will go to hell, someone from another religion said the same thing to me in real life. And it really struck me as odd that of all the nasty, personal things she could say to me she chose that. Because none of the other white teachers from Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia who've worked at the school and she now thinks are great (although she hated them while they were here) believed in those Chinese folk gods either. And none of her many British friends she supposedly has and keeps going on about would believe in those gods. Does she believe they're going to hell too? Maybe she thinks it's OK to have any theistic religion. I'm probably overanalyzing now. She just wanted to say something nasty and personal to me, like she has done many times before. Spud (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@Spud It’s refreshing to see someone as principled, and empathetic, as you are towards your students’ welfare. You’ve had to make personal sacrifices (stealing those books, risking the scorn and disapproval of your religious colleagues) that have made your job far from easy. Weaker individuals (the majority of us) would’ve crumbled at the prospect of having the courage of their convictions in the face of zealous in-group pressures. I think your boss, quite simply, fears someone who isn’t a pushover, who won’t dance to her tune, and as a consequence she has had to resort to petty, pathetic intimidation-tactics. Furthermore, your boss clearly intends to provoke a pronounced reaction in you, so don’t give her her what she wants. Nevertheless, surely this language could be considered bullying behaviour, I don’t know what the situation with unions is like in Taiwan, but have you considered consulting a teacher’s union? I wish your boss wasn’t such a bigot, and yet, I trust that there are far-more rewarding moments that crowd-out those fleeting skirmishes with your boss; you seem to have been able to endure admirably over the years—organising pockets of resistance. To end on a more humours note: you should accuse your boss of blasphemy, I’m certain the parent-teacher tribunal will push for the Wicker woman … then again, saner heads have prevailed. LeucippusSalva veritate 19:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Hell certainly exists Spud and that hell is dealing with people who are convinced that you will go to fictional hell. I'm sorry you have a nightmare boss. Is it that you are in Taiwan specifically for that job and cannot move to another one or are you attached to the kids? ShabiDOO 22:32, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
@Shabidoo Oui. L'enfer c'est les autres.
@Leucippus Yes, on the whole, I still enjoy my job. But I can't stay in it much longer. I really haven't stayed in it out of choice for the last 18 months. Bloody worldwide pandemic! And the reason I'm still in it is because my health insurance is tied to my job and my getting the second dose of the Covid vaccine is tied to my health insurance.
My boss certainly is a bully. She's tried to gaslight me several times. I now call her out on that every time she tries. And yeah, she's constantly trying to make me angry and I really shouldn't allow her to. Just because she's incapable of being professional doesn't me I can't be.
interestingly, my bosses' nephew (a lovely chap) said that his aunt and uncle respected me because I didn't always automatically go along with whatever they said and I was prepared to say no to them. And there's a funny thing. His mother, my horrible boss' sister, is the sweetest person I've ever met. She's just pure love. The exact opposite of her sister. Spud (talk) 12:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
@Spud I think, and hope, I understand your position. My mother was a teacher. She definitely experienced the lopsided trade-offs between the pros of—interacting with and witnessing people learn, and the cons of—lesson planning, school politics, and unpleasant bosses. I’m truly sorry that the pandemic left you in a Catch-22 compromise with your health-insurance and all … I imagine your situation must feel overwhelming at times, and if that’s true, I think it’s worth on a daily basis reminding yourself of how difficult situations pass, overwhelming emotions are fleeting, and even in discomfort one can find moments of joy that make the frustration and anxiety and fatigue fade away e.g. a moment of laughter or a good meal with an intimate or a friend. Moreover, having a contingency plan for leaving your current job will (I think) be helpful, you could then see clear trajectories through that fuzzy ring called “the future”.
R.e. Your boss: pathetic, inexcusable behaviour. You’ll look forward to the day when she’s just a story you can retell to friends.
I think people will always respect someone who has the integrity and assertiveness to be confident in their opinions and beliefs. I bet your bosses’ sister makes you curious of where it went wrong with your boss? LeucippusSalva veritate 01:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
All very true. Apart from the feeling overwhelmed at times part, thankfully. Spud (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Thats crazy brother. I hope your situation improves! TheNFLGuy (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The Open University in the UK[edit]

Is using this version of the pride flag for some website pages and email signatures:


ShabiDOO 21:19, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Good idea actually, it is pretty controversial though. Senioritas (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes we had quite the debate on the issue a few months ago here in the Saloon. I supported things like the new flag though it seemed, if my memory serves me correct, that I was very much alone in my support on an uber inclusive pride flag. I am not going to say that arguments against it were bad ones, but I still totally stand by extra inclusive transflags and the value of black/brown stripes. ShabiDOO 22:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
I think the flag is too literal. I think the old LGBT flag was all right with its old 6 colour stripes as the different colours didn't mean anything. Like for example the Canadian flag. The colours and the maple leaf doesn't mean anything, it just represent "Canadianess" if you get what I mean. Also having stripes for different melanins is silly in my opinion. BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
Having stripes for different melanins is indeed silly, but discriminating against people for having different amounts of melanin in their skin is even more ridiculous. LongStylus (talk) 04:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't believe for a second it is silly. While I understand the will to stay with this same ole flag with its "colour blindness", it is a completely reasonable stance to take that other colours are added, especially to include black LGBTQ+ people who are famously marginalised within the very marginalised LGBTQ+ community. Turns out that this new design is being used by other institutions and even local governments (which I only just learnt about). ShabiDOO 16:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
That flag looks hideous. The old rainbow flag was fine. Don’t fix what ain’t broke. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 19:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Both flags are hideous. ShabiDOO 19:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I don't personally like the flag for a number of reasons. From a vexiology perspective, the identing arrow makes the flag look really busy with all the extra colors. From an opinion perspective, it just looks ugly. From a meaning perspective, I don't like it because it forces an overlap between two matters that... aren't really that related for the brown stripe? Like, sexuality and gender have nothing to do with race. I get there's an argument to be made that LGBTQ+ racial minorities often get sidelined in these discussions, but I don't think a flag is the right place to put that. Maybe a flag for that subcommunity specifically would be more useful than changing the overall pride flag. As for the trans flag (where I guess I have more standing), my dislike for it is that while it's true that trans people get marginalized pretty badly when it comes to LGBTQ (fuck off TERFs), it's a bit odd to primarize them on the flag like this. I don't mind trans flag incorporation in like, logos, but I find it personally a bit weird to put it on the flag itself like this. To me the original rainbow flag sorta symbolizes this freeing nature that it doesn't really matter where you come from, who you are, who you want to be and who you want to fall in love with, it's all fine, you don't have to belong in a box. Adding these specific "meaning" colors and the like to the flag kinda feels like we're trying to reinvent boxes for people to belong in, which is a thought that scares me. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:56, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, what about intersex people, or asexual people, or genderfluid people? What about those who want to place sex workers on the flag (as some do with a red umbrella)? Why are those specifically on the LGBT flag? In my opinion, this will just clutter the flag up so much in the future. BeardOfZeus (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
In My opinion, the Pride flag is already walking on a tightrope. It already is bearing the weight of six colors (try and list other flags with six colors on them that are NOT just inflated by their coat-of-arms) and the new colors just break the camel's back. The Black and Brown stripes never made much sense to me, because they seemed to me to divide people when a flag should unite them. Lastly, Transgendered people already have their own flag that from what I know often gets flown as a sort of sister/brother flag anyway. An Advocate (talk) 22:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I can understand some of the arguments made here but I don't for a second buy the "creates division" argument. By that argument, the pride flag itself creates division by representing a sub-group of humans. If "dividing" is to be avoided then the argument should be to scrap the flag itself. In any case, if the flag requires 1,000 different shades and stipes and sections to accommodate the requests of marginalised groups and advocates, I don't see the harm in adding them. If it should be generic then just have a white field with LGBTQ+ on it. It is already a hideous ugly flag that I never voted for or agreed to. ShabiDOO 12:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The end result would be the vexillogical equivalent of this and this. Anna Livia (talk) 10:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It's Spud's 10th RationalWiki anniversary[edit]

Wrong icon, but it's the thought that counts!

I'm celebrating 10 years on RationalWiki. I created my account on 10th September 2011. And I've made as near as damn it at least one edit on average every single day since then.

Now let's see if any of the real Old Guard come out of the woodwork to say they've been here since 2007. Spud (talk) 12:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Well done, have some cake. I don't exist here, and have been not existing here since the site was founded, and will probably continue to not exist here for a while at least. Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Under one or two names since 01:46, 13 July 2007 me and my sis. Scream!! (talk) 12:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Congratulations on ten years! (And yes, I've been around since the very beginning too.)Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:04, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Ten cheers for Spuddy!!!ShabiDOO 15:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
I have been here since 2013. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Celebration! BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Hey Spud, congrats on 10 years, and a toast to another 10. I got a little while until that deadline here (Officially joined in 2016, after lurking for a bit).--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 20:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the cake. I've actually recently celebrated my 15th anniversary on Wikipedia (the English one rather than the Danish one). Spud (talk) 22:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Happy tenniversary! Avida Dollarsher again 10:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

There are no more Jewish people in Afghanistan (No this is not an anti-semitic post)[edit]

With the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan, the Jewish population either fled or were killed. Wonder how long before more non-Islamic groups are driven out of Afghanistan due to threats of their safety?

I feel sympathy for these people driven out of their homes. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 23:40, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I remember somewhere watching that there was only like 1 Jewish person in all of Afghanistan BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
...Right? Not going to say it is or ever was exactly zero, but the presence of the religion and its people in Afghanistan was probably pretty close until Jewish servicemembers of the various imperial powers rolled in and approached zero as those powers rolled were chased out ever since the Babylonian exile and later the diaspora following the second temple's destruction, the late Kaifeng Jewish population and whatever route they took to China notwithstanding.Artificius (talk) 00:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Or killed? No, there was only one. He fled. Andrew5 (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Al-Jazzera article on Jews in Afghanistan - salient points - first recorded as exiles by the Assyrians 2700 years ago, influx in early 19thC from Persian oppression - maybe 36,000, then slowly decreasing, 3300 left in 1936. Many left for Israel, and more from 1979 with start of civil war. Descendants of Afghan Jews still visit to "reconnect with their roots" Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
At this point I'm concerned about that synagogue. Islamists love to turn churches and synagogues into mosques as a form of dominance, to remind all infidels that eventually, everything they ever had will be the property of Islam. Correkt (talk) 14:29, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I had a Pakistani buddy/classmate who told a story about that: he and his family were Christian in the old country (converts from Sikhism about fifty to a hundred years ago), some podunk moron of the local flavor tried to steal their church by performing the magical ritual/spell that irreversibly transforms an otherwise unremarkable pile of rocks and lumber into a mosque in the shadow of night, so they beat the living fuggin’ tar out of him and he ran off. I always picture this unwashed, toothless git who has nothing going for him but his faith, yet somewhere in the back of his head he thinks "at least I’m better than those people." Then he proved himself wrong. Artificius (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
And then that toothless git then ran around telling stories about how he got beaten up by Christians because he was practicing his Islamic faith, and then a lynch mob formed in front of the church. Correkt (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
That's what I would have figured, but... said buddy didn't actually elaborate and I never thought to ask (he was weird about Pakistan. Seemed to hate Muslims but was fiercely nationalistic). I'll text him and see if there's such an ending to the story or if that nobody was so wretched that nobody else gave a shit when he was "beaten up by a Christian mob" (I'm picturing Cricket from "Always Sunny"). It's also very possible that their neighbors were just cool with them as long as they kept to themselves and didn't start handing out bibles and such. Fundamentalism and xenophobia can be a bit like the weather. Artificius (talk) 19:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
So I got a response: the douchebag was laying stones in order to build the mosque, was successfully run off, and a mob didn't form. My guess is that guy sucked at life hard enough that the local religious minority was a much more sympathetic figure than him. Could be projecting, had a character like that in my family. Artificius (talk) 21:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Islamist suffer crushing defeat in Morocco[edit]

Maybe the Taliban played a role of voting out Islamists. Monet talk 05:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

UK Taxes[edit]

I have recently moved to the UK. I've been working here for a couple months, getting used to a very different pace of work and office environment. Unemployment is relatively high in Spain at the moment per COVID and because of Brexit there is a fairly large labour shortage. I got a job in no time. Though I am fairly shocked to see that salaries haven't increased much in 20 years (I worked for a couple years in London 20 years ago). To say the rich keep getting richer here and the middle class barely see an improved standard of living is an understatement. The taxes are a fair bit lower than in continental Europe, so it isn't like I am outraged by a small tax increase. But what does seriously bother me is that the conservative government has raised NI taxes (for all) with a cut off point for the rich, and hasn't touched corporate taxes, capital gains taxes or is yet to make any serious effort to get companies like Amazon, google, facebook etc to pay a remotely fair share of taxes on the profit they earn in the UK. I know this is a fairly common thing for conservative governments to do, get the poorest to take on an absurdly unfair burden and they can go fuck themselves very much if they don't like it, but after nearly two decades of austerity...I still find it surprising (as well as the fairly tepid response to this by other parties). What is going on here? I swear I see far more people rough sleeping in the street than 20 years ago, more visible social problems in general and a decaying of the social net (as well as some empty supermarket shelves sometimes because of Brexit). Is this just a logical end for a conservative ideology? ShabiDOO 13:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

There's labor shortage in Canada as well. I'm personally unemployed because I don't want to get COVID, the anti-Asian racism scares me, and I'm dealing with health problems. Not doing online learning either as my apartment is normally loud during the day, so I can't study. I used to live in a decent condo that has a study room, but the increasing rent caused me to move out. Life sucks everywhere. LongStylus (talk) 14:15, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It's almost as if the British government cares more about retired people and the rich than working people. I wonder who those groups vote for. --Annanoon (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I think you're a bit misguided here, Shabi. The best way to combat inequality is not by taxation (although I agree it does play an important role on this matter). The best way to fight inequality is with good public policies. Now, don't get me wrong, I do support progressive taxes, but there's an important tradeoff between them and economic development (see Ireland, they are growing faster than China in part because their taxation is low). lLet's not forget which country has the most progressive taxes in the world.
(After moving back to the States from Sweden, I make twice what I did there, yet pay half the taxes. That's progressive? Zontar (talk) 21:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC))
The social expenditure in UK is slightly higher than the average OECD. As far as I know that's also truth to taxation. That means there’s still more space for more social spending (and, I repeat, more progressive taxation), but that alone will not do it.
Also, I disagree with the 20 years of austerity stuff. Government spending has been in deficit for over 20 years in UK. The deficits in fact started in 2001/2002.
Not sure about the quality of life too. Between 2006 and 2018 the median household income rose from 223 k to 286,6k.
Public police is a complicated subject and there are always tradeoffs. If you want a good paper about how to tax the rich, I suggest this article by Harvard professor Greg Mankiw. GeeJayK (talk) 15:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
The best way to combat inequality is to get rid of the fawking foreign "investors". The way it works in California is that multi-billionaires from overseas buy up all the homes and then rent them out, and locals have no choice but to pay the increased rents because there is nowhere else to go. So instead of paying down a mortgage to eventually own a bit of real estate, you pay someone else to make them even richer which they use to buy up even more homes to jack up the rents even further. The MEDIAN home price in Cali is $800,000. If you graduate from medical school with $500k in debt, spend a few years in residency and then finally start making $200k+, you STILL can't afford to live in California.
The easiest way to combat this is to set the tax rate for primary residences at 2% and anything else, whether an apartment building or complex or second home, is 5%. Or better yet, a progressive property tax, e.g., 1% on the first $250k and 4% on anything above $250k. This would massively drive down the value of homes to the point where they are affordable, and always make a plot of land more valuable as a private residence than a rental. If you want a second vacation home in a really good location that's where a local would otherwise be able to walk to work, then you better be willing to pay out the wazoo. Correkt (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
That might be an option, but the shortage of houses is just one type of inequality. Besides, the main reasons why houses are so expensive in California are, as far as I know, far more controversial. This article by the Harvard professor Edward Glaeser blames the building restrictions for the lack of supply, for exemple. I believe this sort of policy might distort the market even more, resulting in even less houses available. You can argue (I'm just guessing here, I've never seen anything that suggests it) that there are already enough houses in California, so it's not a problem of supply, but even if that's the case I'm not sure that your idea is the best solution for a myriad of reasons that I don't have time to elaborate rn. GeeJayK (talk) 17:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
California is also on a fault line that gets regular earthquakes, tall construction is both expensive and dangerous. There's routine wildfires, droughts, mudslides, etc, and paving over more of the landscape for homes will only make those issues worse. Granted the drought situation could be blamed entirely on almond farms, but even so. Then there's illegal immigration; regardless of your stance on the matter, once you hit the max building limit, even if an immigrant family of 8 can squish into a 2BR apartment, that's still a 2BR unavailable for anyone else. In the meantime, illegal immigrants working for untaxed low wages is a big part of why rich people's homes are so valuable; if the nanny cost an extra $5k/yr, at 5% interest that would literally would take away $100k from the home's value, to say nothing of the gardeners, mechanics, landscapers, cooks, construction workers, etc. Correkt (talk) 17:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
(EC) Yeah, I don't deny that. It's a very difficult problem with no solution on sight. See, I'd bet that many of these restrictions are stupid, I'm sure many of them are also important. I'd also add that everyone thinks living by the beach is better than living on the desert, while living in the mountains is impossible for most of us. Also, I don't think global warming will make Cali any less uninhabitable... GeeJayK (talk) 17:25, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
GeeJayK, the government of the UK has been either slashing many social programs or it has been inadequately keeping up with inflation. Having a deficit does not mean people aren't suffering from cuts/insufficient-funding. I see it literally all around me. I notice with my bare eyes the changes that have happened in 20 years, and I know the enormous list of programs the conservatives have axed from closing down homeless shelters to reducing benefits for the most vulnerable to not keeping NHS funding up with inflation.
I never said taxes should be raised. I said I am highly bothered by the way only one tax was increased which puts an unfair burden on poor people, while other taxes were not increased.
As for dealing with inequality, lowering taxes has rarely brought about better equality in modern history unless it specifically lessened the burden on the poor (which few governments do) without accompanying social spending cuts. Picketty, amongst many others did a fairly thorough analysis between tax cuts and less than impressive improvements for lower and middle class (especially as so many tax cuts disproportionately favour those with means) and put an end to the preposterous myth of the trickle down effect.
One need only look at numerous European countries with substantial taxes and a higher level of equality and the United States, with very low taxes and utterly shocking inequality and in many states, an inhumane lack of social services and support, homelessness and terrible poverty (and all the crime and social issues that come with it). There are outliers, but in the Western World at least, lowering taxes does not equal equality, and if lowering those taxes comes along with slashing services (as it often does) it worsens inequality.
I am not complaining about the tax rise. Taxes are low in the UK compared with where I have lived before. It is, yet again, a tax that makes being poor even more expensive and barely bothers those with means, all of which will barely return social programs to the relative funding of 20 years ago. ShabiDOO 23:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Shabidoo Maybe my comment was incomprehensible or I was misunderstood. I did find your answer a bit detached from my previous post, but I’ll try to answer your point. Sorry sorry for the quote mining, I hate it just as much as the next person. I’ll start with the conclusion and then elaborate: The points you’ve mentioned aren’t really related to austerity or taxation, even if they’re true.

So, Shabi, you claimed that the government of the UK has been slashing many social programs. Maybe they are cutting on individual programs, but the overall spending is still growing steadly. The social spending as a percentage of the GDP rose from 16 to 21% between 2000 and 2019. During the same period, the GDP grew by almost a third, what means an even more dramatic rise in social spending. You can say that they’re spending in bad programs. Maybe they are. But the problem here isn’t austerity or fiscal conservativism, since, as we saw, they are spending more in any measurements we can use. That’s also truth to you claim about the NHS: the health spending rose between 2010 and 2019. The British Government spends far more than the Danish, government, the Finnish Government, the Australian government, the Italian government (although far less than the American government) with healthcare with mediocre resultsWikipedia to say the very least.Wikipedia

I wasn’t clear when I mention taxation. I meant tax burden. The UK still have space to have a higher tax burden that will allow the country to spend more on social security, but this will also result in a slower growth, you can see what I wrote here what I wrote. I’m usually embarrassed by most of my edits on the main space, this is one of my favorites. Which one should the electors choose? Both are good choices, but the tradeoff is real. Now, for having a more progressive taxation, that could also work (I usually support it due to my deontological beliefs), but that is also dangerous and may cause economic inefficiency (which also means a drop in the quality of life. I don’t know a lot about the taxes in UK, so I’m not going to say if it should pursuit a more progressive taxation, much the extent of this progressivity.

I didn’t claim that lower taxes result in less inequality (indeed, I claimed otherwise, taxes are an important tool to lower inequality). I'm not sure I understand your opinion. You want lower taxes without cutting spending? That doesn’t really make sense. Someone has got to pay, and I repeat, you can’t just “tax the rich” and call it a day. You can “slash” social programs and still have austerity (and a strong social security). that’s what the Social Democrats in Sweden did.

As for the great economist Piketty (and not Picketty) I believe I’m far more familiar with his work than most people here, and I don’t understand what trickle-down economics has to do with anything. Indeed, trickle-down economics became a snarl word and a strawman; it has very little to do with actual supply side economics. The article here on RW is so bad that I suspect that even the Conservapedia article might be better. I suggest these two papers by Martin Feldstein if you want to understand what the heck is supply side economics anyway.

Still regarding the US, I repeat, they have the most progressive tax system in the OECD. Hardly a good example in this matter. About the Western world, this OECD paper claims that the effects vary so much it’s impossible to reach conclusion like yours.

I wanted to write a lot more (like, twice as more as I did), but I’m exhaustedand my comment is already too long, boring and technical to a Saloon discussion. I think your intentions are the best and despite the sharp tone you’re definitely engaging in good faith, but your opinion on this matter relies too much on your personal experience and perception of the world. This is good, we all do this. But I don’t think these are substitutes to empirical evidence and data, which IMO contradict some of your claims. GeeJayK (talk) 04:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes GeeJayK, I massively misread your reply. I had somehow read that you said lowering taxes improved economic inequality, and the only way I could imagine you would conclude that, as many people still through the supposed magic of trickle down economics. Taxes are more than just personal income tax, as in many countries there are multiple taxes on personal income, but also VAT, corporate taxes, capital gains taxes etc. As for government spending, government spending can go up, without it properly improving social spending (i.e. the money goes towards improving trade, farming subsidies, foreign service, military etc) to the point that social programs do not keep up with inflation. So that, NHS spending increases but not at say, pre 10 years ago spending with inflation (when the conservatives took over). They can claim they raised NHS spending (which they do) but if it doesn't keep up with inflation and growing population and medical costs, then it isn't much of an increase). I'm probably also using austerity as a term used in continental Europe (austeridad for example) which refers not to less spending but spending that is hard on the general populous. So my bad in both cases. Anyways, sorry for royally and colossally misreading your text.
I don't think any of this takes away from my original point, that the conservative government's quick grasp for money was a national insurance tax which disproportionately hurts the worst off. It is a cruel thing to do in a time when people are already hurting and there were other means to raise that money. May I also point out that the 7 billion raised by this tax is a lot less than the money lost by terrible post-brexit planning and waste (though that is a different topic). ShabiDOO 10:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a page here?[edit]

Found a dead link.

Screenshot 2021-09-09 3.12.26 PM.png

Jake Holmesyell at me 14:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Huh, you learn something every day. Would have figured this for a support group type thing for clergy who’ve lost their faith and livelihood, but "secular clergy" apparently refers to priests who aren’t part of a monastic order like the Jesuits, the Dominicans, the Franciscans, what have you. I could see a need for such a thing. Can also see why this isn’t even a stub on RW. Did it get purged for that reason? Also, you should really sign your edits here. I think not doing so is how you get things deleted/invoke the old gods. Artificius (talk) 16:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it's some 2010 fluff that in 2017 got binned for being not even "good enough for Uncyclopedia". Guess whatever page this was found on didn't update accordingly. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Signed. Thanks for mentioning that, setting up the photo correctly distracted me and I forgot to. Jake Holmesyell at me 14:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

September eleven[edit]

Who even really cares about 9/11? I mean for real, Isis left a large trail of blood behind them, but so did the KKK and no one talks about the KKK anymore since the 2000's, and I observe the same trend for Isis. I can say with certainty that in several decades, Isis and 9/11 will be forgotten entirely like the KKK.

I'm not even talking about progressive circles or RationalWiki who discuss about them, I'm saying that in general, everyone around me seems to forget about 9/11 and if I ask them about the KKK, they simply think they are fringe alt-righters which makes me so aggravated. They murdered 3 thousand people, they are not the same as those wannabe chauvinist pissants of the alt-right. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 19:00, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I take it you don't live anywhere near New York. Those of us who do (I'm in southwestern CT, on the rare occasions there's no traffic a bit more than an hour drive away) sure haven't forgotten it. An entire family in my hometown at the time was on one of the flights, and my parents knew someone whose brother jumped from the 105th floor. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:06, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
it launched two wars - afghanistan and iraq - the defining events of the last 20 years. the op is a twat. AMassiveGay (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Say what you will, the fact is undeniable that there are people who forgot what 9/11 is even about. There is a video on Youtube where Americans couldn't be bothered to name a single country outside the US, so that low knowledge is unsurprising in itself. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 19:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Compassion fatigue is real, but it's one of those events of which you remember where you were forever. Freshman year, just after lunch, halfway across the country, wandering late into class. Artificius (talk) 19:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Not American, but we still talk about it down here once in a while. I'd say it was the most important event of the century before the pandemic. We also talk about the KKK sometimes. GeeJayK (talk) 19:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
(EC) Chemistry class, early morning. One of the low level admins had said a plane crashed into the tower. We weren't sure what had happened, we all thought it was a Cesna or something tiny. Then the rumor in the halls was that is was two planes. We all sat in front of those CRT TVs on the rolling stand things, class was more or less halted besides watching. The video cameras showed a couple of people jumping to their deaths, but in the aftermath it turns out that was only a tiny fraction of the people who did just that. Then all of a sudden the south tower collapsed; there was so much smoke we couldn't even see if it had been the whole tower or just a large chunk of it. Then the north tower did the same thing. Correkt (talk) 19:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I imagine for those out there too young to have lived through it directly (eg anyone 20ish or younger), it's more an event of history versus something you directly remember experiencing. However, it's a pretty monumental event of United States history that we're still living in the shadow of. It's like saying people will forget about Pearl Harbor or the Battle of Gettysburg, this hasn't happened yet either. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Gettysburg is the place that keeps all the internet pictures, right? Artificius (talk) 19:46, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It is also a very cool (fictional) movieWikipedia. If you have five hours to spare, watch it. The prequel is also decent, even though some people might find it offensive. GeeJayK (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Ah yes, WWII. It may shock younger people today, but back then, people all agreed that Nazis were a bad thing. My Grandpa was too young to join the military, but he did it anyway by lying about his age. I don't think we will ever again see that level of patriotism, where people were willing to pick up a gun and possibly die to protect their fellow countrymen in another time zone. Today we have a bunch of man-babies that are too terrified of a widdle needle or a facemask to protect their own neighbors, or become emotional, hysterical wrecks because someone used a different pronoun than they wanted.Correkt (talk) 19:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I should have worded my sentences better, but I was talking about specifics. The name "9/11" is still present in people's memories, but no one around me can remember what it was in detail. My example with the KKK was that, an example, to illustrate the point. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the KKK are the most repulsive domestic terrorist organization in America. I know it is anecdotal (As I would learn from Blade), but I remember talking about 9/11 to a friend and they couldn't remember the details of it, they said it was "an accident where a plane crash landed". I then asked for more details, but they didn't know any better, I had to tell them it was a terrorist attack and the plane did not just "crash land". As for the comment about Pearl Harbor, meh, nobody remembers what it was and some cranks call it a hoax. Some people don't remember what was the Vietnam war and it is in the video I mentioned previously. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 19:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
(Profile) - (Spoke!) 20:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)


That video is from The Chaser, one of their earlier one off's for ABC in Australia, and while it is clearly selectively edited to highlight a point, that was the entire point of the programme, to satirize Rolling News. They eventually went on to make The Chaser's War on Everything and The Hamster Factor. Ending the 4 year run of the Chaser, (which included dressing as a Muslim terrorist outside Bush's hotel, dressing as Barney and demanding royalties from Dick Chaney, posing as a Canadian Government motorcade for a summit where Canada wasn't invited, and getting taken off air for offending terminally sick children as well as The Eulogy Song with one host turning half of himself into Daniel Craig. Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
If you are interested in seeing more of these, a Youtuber dedicated an entire channel to ask simple questions to strangers on the streets and them being unable to answer accordingly. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 09:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

That makes more sense, but I can remember that Tuesday morning very, very well. Until not so long ago, pretty much everyone around my age (early 30s or late 20) would claim that they were watching Dragon Ball Z when the horrible images came out of the blue. For years, I claimed that it was Mandela effect and they all laughed at me. Then a couple years ago a site showed that DBZ wasn't on TV at that moment. It took almost 20 years, but I was avenged. But seriously, I remember that day very well. Hell, I remember even drawing an airplane bombing Palestine (I don't think I even know was Palestine was before that day) because I was pissed and everyone thought it was them, not Bin Laden, that was behind the attack in the first day. GeeJayK (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I was less than a year old when it happened, so of course I don't remember any of the specifics of that day. I mainly remember it due to the two pointless wars fought because of it and its effects on foreign policy to this day. Plutocow (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Of course there will always be a dumb and naive crowd. The History Channel didn't morph from "the all-Hitler channel" to "aliens and ghost shit" for no reason. But the dumb and naive are not "everyone". At any rate, as I mentioned, there also definitely is a difference between "in living memory" and "historical event". The History Channel's all-Hitler phase was probably heavily fueled by retired people who had formative memories of WWII in some way or another. Most of these folks are gone, and now WWII events are by and large just a note in the history books. It's different. Same with the KKK, who though they still exist haven't committed a lynching that I know of since 1981, and are relatively minor in the modern sea of the openly racist side of the Internet (apparently there's a loose tie of the KKK to Stormfront, though, so there's that) But remembered only in history is not the same as forgotten. Plus, many people in their 30s or older now probably do remember something about the events of 9/11 (I certainly do). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
11 years old, my second proper school day, they called an assembly to tell us about the twin towers; learned about the others on the car ride back home. Even from here you could see the smoke along the coast. I don't know the situation elsewhere, but here people still very much actively talk about it; the younger kids around here all have a basic understanding of the day itself, obviously wouldn't expect them to know much more. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I also remember being weirded out by the Newspeak and propaganda such as "religion of peace". I understand why it was done, Al Qaeda was not the same as the Muslims in our school. It was an absolute travesty the dirty looks they got, or the hate crimes committed against hundreds of Muslims around the country. It just... rubbed my the wrong way for some reason.
I also remember saying some stupid shit back then such as "close all borders, no more immigration for now". But I was a bit of a twat as a teen. Still am in some sense... Correkt (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
9/11 was a traumatic event for everybody old enough to remember it. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by comparing it to other traumatic events that arguably still do get revisited (although I'll admit the long term effects of white supremacist terrorism do get glossed over some, despite the efforts of some in the media to explore stuff like that one race riot in Oklahoma)-Hastur! (talk) 23:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken Did you just imply that ISIS conducted the 9/11 attacks? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken You seem to be harbouring an unstated premise: that in order for something to be historically significant it must leave a “large trail of blood” in its wake; and because ISIS and the KKK have both left “large trails of blood” behind them and yet are forgotten by some people, then they are not historically significant. Thus you inferred that on the basis of anecdotal evidence, and a false equivalence between ISIS, the KKK and the events of 9/11, that 9/11 is not historically significant.
I was three years old when 9/11 happened, so clearly I don’t remember the event itself, but I can assure you that there are plenty of people my age who appreciate the huge ramifications of 9/11 and have seen documentaries and tv specials on the horrific events of that day. The fact that you think ISIS were involved in 9/11 demonstrates a disturbing level of ignorance. LeucippusSalva veritate 00:19, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Also, not that this is an argument for how things progressed after September 11, I'm glad bin Laden at least got what was coming to him. Shot dead and tossed into the ocean (with a proper burial at sea), so there can't be a twisted pilgrimage site, with the embarrassment of having his massive porn collection come out just for a little extra scorn. If ever someone deserved one between the eyes, that was it. And say what you will about the Freedom Tower, it is a pretty impressive structure (I've been to the top of the Empire State Building, last time I was down there I'd have gone to the top of that if it wasn't a really foggy day) and basically a giant middle finger (or a thumbs up in the Arab world), I'll take what I can get. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Not really; the new tower is still shorter than the twin towers. Remember, in 1971 not only those towers were the tallest buildings in the world, there were TWO of them. That sent the clear message that not only did we build the best, we doubled it. Numerous times throughout history we built the tallest structure in the world, heck from 1899 until 1973 all the world's tallest buildings were in NYC alone, whereafter that title moved to Chicago for a quarter century and only in 1998 did the title move outside the US. Even so, every nation sent their people to the UN building in Manhattan where they got to see the economic might that was the US. Now, though, it doesn't matter, the tallest building belongs to the utterly hideous Burj Khalifa in Dubai which is literally twice as high as the towers were, in spite of literally being built on sand, in a city that has as much economic stability as bitcoin. Correkt (talk) 01:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I mean, it's not mind-blowing or anything, but it's a bit more impressive in person and does stick out. And it's definitely not as hard on the eyes as the utter monstrosity that is the Burj Khalifa; I wish I could do enough PCP to make that look good. At least there's something there, and its current height has some significance. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
i feel it fair to mention amidst this little display of god bless america, that the twin towers were indeed fugly, more so than any building built by arabsAMassiveGay (talk) 09:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
What fucking retards don't know about the KKK? Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 03:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

"I mean for real, Isis left a large trail of blood behind them" So everyone is just going to ignore the factually wrong statement here of claiming that 9/11 was orchestrated by an Islamic fundamentalist group that didn't exist at the time? Everyone is just going to gloss over this massive inaccuracy? Seriously? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 04:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

ISIS was an offshoot of Al-Qaeda, founded by people who had joined because Al-Qaeda pulled off 9/11. Still a dumb statement; the details matter. Correkt (talk) 04:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Technically correct ("the best kind of correct"). But still, it does seem like the OP was engaging in a little bit of psychological projection by not even getting the basic name of the terrorist group right. Those who lived through that era know how Al-Qaeda was hammered into the American public as justification for both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Now, if I wanted to pick something from that time that for many Americans (bar those with decent memories), the subject has sort of faded away? I would pick Abu Ghraib.Wikipedia PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 04:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Isis is a splinter group from Al-Qaeda and their name is far easier to remember than that of Al-Qaeda. Does it really matter though since they're almost identical? The main difference between the two was their leadership, Osama Bin Laden controls Al-Qaeda, whereas the leader of Isis is someone else, can't remember the name as it's long as hell. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 09:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
was the point of this whole thread just to show what a dumbfuck you are? good work there in that case. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:50, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I can't say I disagree with the above. From start to finish, it's been like someone's just crowingcawing for attention. Kntai (talk) 09:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken Does it matter that you and Donald Trump are both morons? If I accuse you of Trump's crimes, with the potential for people to act on those assumptions, does it really matter that you are in fact two different people? (Hint, of course it bloody well matters!) ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 11:44, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Further, Al-Quaeda has actually fought ISIS on several occasions. FURTHER, Bin Laden controls nothing since he's fucking dead. Thank you for confirming that you are in fact a literal child by the way. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 11:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I know the dude's dead, why the hell can't you tell that I don't structure my sentences very well when I speak, you jackass. And don't ever compare me to Trump again, how would you feel if I compared you to Stalin, you commie bitch. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 12:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken You both say stupid shit, and again, does it matter that you are in fact two separate people? You asked a question, I'm answering it. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Also, I don't support border control/building dumb walls, or oppose the administration of the SARS cov 2 vaccine + the mask mandate. You do support Communism though. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 13:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken You keep trying to pivot for some reason. Does it matter that you and Trump both say stupid shit? Should I claim that you are both in fact the same person by shared traits alone? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Transchicken, rationalwiki may have a more laxed attitude towards people referring to "fucking this" or "you blab stupid crap" but not towards direct insults. "You commie bitch" is a direct insult and a user was recently blocked for repeated similar incivility. Considering how new you are to the site, the tolerance threshold for personal insults will be low. ShabiDOO 16:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You're speaking about Unclescrooge who got blocked for making dumb trolling posts about gender. Most Neocons' humor is limited to that and that only. If you're speaking of Machina, he was uncivil for several days before he became blocked - And for the record, mocking Machina is not ableist. I recall Grammar Commie acting very uncivil too throughout the site's history. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 17:28, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken You keep trying to pivot for some reason. Does it matter that you and Trump both say stupid shit? Should I claim that you are both in fact the same person by shared traits alone? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
No, I am referring to multiple other users who were blocked before your time and/or before your recent spate of activity. Multiple direct insults like "you commie bitch" will eventually get you blocked. Based on your general lack of constructive edits so far minus a few corrects, a reference and one new entry on the TERF glossary (thanks for those by the way), I can assure you that more direct personal insults will get you blocked sooner rather than later. ShabiDOO 18:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm assuming that the fact that TransChicken has added a dishonest summery of this exchange to their self awards list means that they are bowing out of this exchange. @Shabidoo I really don't care if TransChicken insults me. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie I admire your enduring patience in engaging with these morons. Over the course of my time here, I’ve seen you uphold standards of reason and scepticism that this site was designed for.
With regards to TransChicken they seem to be, amongst other things, committing the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi: they seem to think that by inferring a conclusion about ISIS, that they have also inferred a conclusion about Al-Qaeda. Aside from that there argument is insultingly stupid i.e. when they use this premise “ISIS seem almost identical to Al-Qaeda” and this premise “ISIS as a name is easier to remember than Al-Qaeda”a basis for inferring a conclusion about 9/11. This kind of thoughtlessness should be reserved for a different website. LeucippusSalva veritate 16:39, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


Perhaps a better comparison than the KKK: a far more devastating event is turning 80: the Operation Barbarossa. The Siege of LeningradWikipedia turned 80 only three days ago. As far as I know, the Russians still remember it very well. GeeJayK (talk) 03:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

thats hardly fair conmparison at all. most of europe was already at war this point, most of europe already overrun by the nazis. meanwhile china was already in a fight for its life with japanese. as for the us, pretty sure pearl harbour has more resonance for americans than barbarossa. AMassiveGay (talk) 09:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
and barbarossa didnt seemingly come out of nowhere like 9/11 appeared to AMassiveGay (talk) 09:37, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
It wasn't a terror attack. It was Germany attacking USSR with Finland teaming up on it. It wasn't just another day in NYC with no threat of a powerful nation going about with their machinations around spheres of influence. While Stalin might have been in disbelief over Germany attacking the USSR, it's not remotely the same. Kntai (talk) 09:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Back to 9/11[edit]

9/11 was a traumatic experience for the United States and it has had very far reaching implications for the world and I don't see any reason for "not caring" about a traumatic experience or high level global event for any country. That isn't the same thing as saying that the event doesn't occupy your attention or thoughts as it does for others. Just because other countries experience horrors, and just because America's foreign policy up to the events of 9/11 were not the most praiseworthy, does not make the suffering that came from it any less "worthy of caring about". It's one thing to be underwhelmed if a topic is frequently brought up again and again. It is another thing to completely stop caring about an event where people suffered and a nation was traumatised. ShabiDOO 10:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

This is certainly worth a watch. LeucippusSalva veritate 15:16, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

A TV show the accurately portrays conspiracy theorists[edit]

From the animated sitcom from the 1970's called Wait Till Your Father Gets Home. The show itself is about a conservative guy who faces a generation gap between his kids and an ever changing society.

Now the main character by the name of Harry has a neighbor by the name of Ralph who believes in every conspiracy he hears, not matter how absurd it is.

The character Ralph is absolutely obsessed with hunting communists to the point that he manages to build an entire wall around his neighborhood to keep communists out. Ralph also turns in people with Hispanic and Slavic names into the FBI by calling them Communists. In one episode the character Harry gets hit on the head with a bowling ball and goes to the ER. The doctor gives Harry high dose aspirin. Ralph was trying to prevent Harry from taking the aspirin. Ralph believed that aspirin is produced by Communists to kill people.

Safe to say that the show accurately portrayed conspiracy theorists. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

You get a perfect score on Rotten Tomatoes. Certified fresh SensaurC-137 (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Welp, looks like we aren't allowed in Texas[edit]

Texas has now made it illegal to "deplatform" people for "political" views. Meaning if someone wants to spout a bunch of nonsense here regarding abortion and evolution, we actually aren't allowed to ban them unless they actually break a non-political rule. So... not sure how this will be enforced. Correkt (talk) 21:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

It'll sure be interesting to see how they expect this to hold under 1A. nfd (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Texas is getting crazier and crazier. I always knew it was worse then Georgia. Is it worse then Alabama?Andrew5 (talk) 21:32, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It's like they imported all the Crazy from California...Correkt (talk) 21:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It only applies to websites with over 50 million users, so we should be safe for now... although the spambots are quickly inflating our user count. Plutocow (talk) 21:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, it is practically pretty much limited to Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Else wise I was going to wonder how sites that ban anyone who isn't fundie-crazy (such as Conservapedia) would handle the news. At any rate, this shit bill means nothing (even aside from being a 1A violation) to be honest. Most major TOS agreements say nothing "political viewpoint". Instead, they are more about banning things like "incitement of violence", "fraud", "doxxing", "sexual exploitation", and the like. That some people see being banned for this this shit as "banned for being conservative" says a helluv a lot about the sorry state of American "conservatism" these days. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I am an American and it is my God-given right to publically advocate for all of the terrorism I want. Somebody ought to lock up all the Commies for calling me "corncob" on Twitter nfd (talk) 21:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
It's always been against RW's ideals to ban people for having differing viewpoints-Hastur! (talk) 23:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
Well, not quite. Viewpoint is pretty ambigious. In general, we don't ban for a viewpoint prima-facie (just saying "I'm conservative/christian/religious/cult member of the sacred Goat" isn't worthy of a ban, in no small part because these views all have nuanced versions that don't immediately default to "you're literally the worst person ever"). On the other hand, if you elaborate your viewpoint and it turns out to be a bunch of bigoted nonsense, that's when we slam the door. Neonazis are the one exception to that though. Neonazis will be banned with the most extreme prejudice possible. -- Techpriest (talk) 23:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
If I recall, we ban Neonazis quickly because they are so subhuman that they lack the self-control to not rapidly degenerate to abusive, blockworthy behavior.-Hastur! (talk) 23:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
IIRC, we banned Nobs because he didn't condemn the Jan 6th traitors protestors. There was a lot of other stuff, but that seemed to be the final straw. Correkt (talk) 00:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it was a stain on this website's reputation-Hastur! (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Weren't you opposed to the ban of Nathan Larson? Plutocow (talk) 05:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Why do you ask that question heavily implying he did? If he did, then post the evidence, I wanna see it. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 09:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Does this mean that atheists can run for governor in Texas?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes Hastur, the ideology based entirely on reactionary gut feelings lack the self-control to not immediately devolve into blockworthy behavior. You were able to understand what I meant. As for nobs, really it was a cavalcade of things. He was able to get away with shit other people would have received sanctions over for years, mostly because nobs knew how to avoid drawing the ire from the mob; he never sought out conflicts, kept to his talkpage and in general when he did veer out into other pages, he usually ended up being not even wrong but also 100% earnestly arguing his loopy takes. What ultimately did his tenure on RW in was a combination of open flirtation with Michael Flynn's election conspiracies on our site, an earlier block over his bigotry, off-site endorsing of the capitol riot (on conservapedia) and a few editors on this site breaking policy to block him and subsequently force a coop case. -- Techpriest (talk) 15:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Here is the evidence that Hastur (formerly known as User:Brxbrx, or Brx in the vote) did indeed oppose banning Nathan Larson (account name User:Tisane): RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive28#We are not a repository for apologists for pedophilia. It may surprise some people that the vote was not more lopsided in favor of banning (30 to 16), but RW was different then in 2012. In Hastur's defense, he did say this in his vote, "Tisane is a vile creep for writing that essay, and I wholeheartedly support its deletion, but a ban is not necessary. If he continues to harass people with his reprehensible views, then escalating warning bans should be the answer". Bongolian (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

That ban vote is one reason why I tend to reject arguments that RW was so much better back in the day. Seriously, if we had the two-thirds rule back then, that pedo would not have been banned. Plutocow (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
But notice how there was 46 votes, whereas today you are lucky to get 20+ votes in a coop. We've had a lot of infighting which chased off otherwise productive users... Correkt (talk) 13:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
"But notice" how less of our current users are willing to give platforms to pedophiles. Quality is better than quantity.-Flandres (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
We did have the 2/3 rule. We appear to simply have rounded up and nobody felt inclined to protest. Yes, we had a more numerous, more engaged, and more productive editor base back then. Not that it was perfect by any means, as anybody perusing our archives could tell you. I don't know that infighting is necessarily what drove people away. While I wasn't there for it, as I understand it Gamergate drove off a lot of editors (fuzzy on the details but I've seen a good few references to it). Then there's the fact that a lot of what our mission is about isn't really in the zeitgeist anymore. New atheism is dead, making fun of creationists is dead, Conservapedia has lost its novelty, and debunking pseudoscience doesn't seem to have its same appeal (and you would think it would with this pandemic). The "explorations of authoritarianism" branch of our mission is the only one that seems to hold appeal to the masses, and even then its become a vehicle for ideologues to try to turn the wiki into something it isn't.
As for why I voted against banning Tisane? If I recall at that time he was posing as a polite intellectual dissident. The depth of his depravity was not yet known. Many of us deemed it an acceptable solution to merely delete his essay (some users actually engaged him on it and debated him, if I recall correctly). He exceeded tolerance for wrongthink but mere dissent was not a bannable offense. If I knew then what I know now I would not have been so patient. Tisane was a practicing pedophile. And I don't mean in abstraction. He's hurt children. He's done other terrible things, but that on its own is sufficient reason to remove him from the site.-Hastur! (talk) 03:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Wow - when did the site reach 50 million users??!! :O Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 22:04, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Members of Congress and Their Staff Are Exempt From Biden's Vaccine Mandate[edit]

The nature of the worst leaders, and moralism vs. naturalism[edit]

Above there is now a fairly moralistic debate over how horrible Trump was vs. wasn't, with some claiming that this or that position is unreasonable on subjective grounds. There is also a different kind of possible discussion. Putting aside the question of moralistically judged "wickedness" for a moment, it seems some individuals are simply wired to manipulate and exploit, and to lack positive behavioral traits of character. There was the input from psychologists who found that Trump had strong narcissistic or even psychopathic traits and who made that clear earlier on, and related research, as in that of Bob Altemeyer on authoritarian followers and the movement surrounding Trump. That's a different type of anti-Trump position, though similar in viewing Trump as mainly simply bad from the start and categorically.

This in turn reminds me of the stuff I've written about in my essay on Political Ponerology, the book by A. Lobaczewski on forbidden Soviet research he was involved in which diagnosed the system and its key influential characters at various levels. There's a part in that book on political "spellbinders" as a broad personality category, which I've not written about yet, but which seems to fit the recent history of Trump perfectly. Such individuals have a talent for reaching a smaller segment of people with a strength of influence running counter to critical sense, to the extent that it seems like that group falls under a spell, pulled away from the reality understood by the rest. But the spellbinders always end up disappointed by not getting the full ultimate traction they feel the world owes them. Such "spellbinders" are always pathological people, according to Lobaczewski, and their main distinguishing trait is not the charisma, but rather a lack of self-questioning and a treating of personal subjective criteria as objective and infallible to an extent that has crossed all boundaries of healthy personality variation.

Lobaczewski describes the polarization taking place when a spellbinder gains a following. The spellbinder uses manipulative ad-hoc moralism among other tactics to sway and divide people around the self of the spellbinder. Paranoid outbursts against opponents is one of several typical patterns. The message tends to be instinctively offensive to many, while a smaller portion of people is attracted. The camps for and against the person and message end up both having moralistically charged attitudes, and as tensions mount, the critics sometimes feel a sense of helplessness regarding the basis of their criticism, since their criteria, too, are also primarily moral and almost instinctive rather than oriented in hard fact and logic.

To avoid such messes, societies need to be prepared beforehand through science, specifically regarding psychology and its variations, so that they have a plain fact-based approach to discerning healthy from unhealthy, and can counter the worst manipulators and their influence on time and systematically. The "common sense approach", by contrast, waxes and wanes in its viability repeatedly as cultural currents form generation after generation with different mentalities, and history shows how insufficient it is. Only great scientific progress, and society embracing it, can offer a way out of history simply repeating regardless of how much historical data about horrible dynamics is gathered over centuries and even millennia.

Thoughts on this related, but subtly different topic?

I'm also re-considering making that essay a mainspace article, as I mentioned earlier on its talk page. No responses there, might as well ask here. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 14:02, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps others aren't interested, or perhaps I made "the topic" too broad and diffuse. The latter can happen when I write a lot all at once. Here's a short list of clear topics I've now extracted that ended up baked into my thinking:
  1. The uselessness or counter-productiveness of moralistically charged debate in any and all areas in which clarity can be achieved by clarifying facts, definitions, and conclusions that follow. When people start from a more fact-oriented mentality and then together slide into a charged debate, this is a regression in the intellectual level. Pop-culture often encourages such, but intellectual striving must oppose it in a more cool-headed way or derail and render itself useless. Things tied to politics are not exceptions. Political polarization in a society is often a lot like an anti-intellectual infectious disease.
  2. Given that there is knowledge about problematic patterns of a psychological kind, and their role in politics, how should society deal with that? Should, ideally, a clear-cut system screen out the psychologically unfit from positions of power, as early as possible in the process based on clear evidence? I think so.
  3. How about covering this book, Political Ponerology, in mainspace? The main reason I made it an essay earlier is that I felt unsure, because earlier, people who had not read the book dismissed it by association with its super-cranky editor (footnote inserter) and publisher come cult leader. Much the same on Wikipedia, where it's been too notable to delete. I think I've demonstrated that the two are very different in their natures. Anyway, I'll interpret silence as "what the hell, I'll give it a go when I think it's more complete".
--ApooftGnegiol (talk) 04:01, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

The Landlord and the Bees (Yes I am venting)[edit]

Okay, in the past several days me and my family had been having a problem with a bee infestation. The landlord sealed off part of the hive and did not hire an exterminator. The landlord sealing off part of the hive made the infestation so much worse. In the past few days me and my family killed about 200 bees. The landlord said that he did not want to spend $1000 on hiring an exterminator. He is more worried about saving his wallet than keeping the apartments safe! In the process of killing bees I got stung on the inner thigh (at least I did not get stung on my nuts, that would have hurt a whole lot worse). My mom got stung on the arm. Basically we are stuck killing bees nonstop and likely the landlord making it worse again. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Man, if only there was a way to create smoke, you'd be able to chill those fuckers out & do whatever you wanted with the hive. Here's hoping that one day science & technology catches up with your dilemma. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 18:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@Helena Bonham Carter Alas, the carbon monoxide poisoning makes such a solution null and void. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
i dunno how american laws work over there but this sounds like something the landlord would have to deal with and pay for the exterminator AMassiveGay (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Find your local beekeepers' association/allotment group and ask them for help.
One online site suggests garlic powder/citronella/cucumber peel (I think separately).
Remind the landlord that 'legal fees for absence of care' are likely to be significantly greater than $1k.
Does your local council require 'licenses for landlording' or similar so they can get them involved? Anna Livia (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie What kind of crazy smoke cannon are you using with your bees? I mean, I've heard things are always bigger in Texas, but seriously... Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 19:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I honestly have no idea as to how the laws pertaining to this sort of thing work. Pretty sure that the landlord has to take care of this sort of thing. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────If these are indeed honey bees, you may be able to hire a local bee removal service that will try to move them to a safer location off of your property. It usually requires moving he queen and at least part of the nest; the rest of the bees normally follow after this. The landowner is legally responsible for making your dwelling habitable, and there are actions that you can take if it is not, such as putting rent in escrow or paying for the repairs yourself and deducting it from the rent. You should check with your local tenants' rights association if you have one or check the local legislation if you don't before taking such action. Bongolian (talk) 20:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Many states have laws which allow you to deduct maintenance costs out of your rent. Check to see if that's the case in your state, and if so send the legal hire the exterminator yourself, and send a copy of the invoice and the relevant legal docs to your landlord regarding why your rent is short $1k that month. Correkt (talk) 06:03, 12 September 2021 (UTC)


Apparantely spambots use abbreviations now. Interesting. (If an admin sees please delete & block ASAP). Andrew5 (talk) 18:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Apparantely it was deleted, but not as spam? I'm so confused...Andrew5 (talk) 19:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
It was.Andrew5 (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
It was an overtly 'hopelessly off-mission' spam.
It is when the spambots can tailor their spawn to the website/discussion group that we should become concerned. Anna Livia (talk) 09:42, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

The post-Covid economy[edit]

As of late, I have been thinking about how billionaires made more billions during the early (and one can assume middle and late) covid event, using this event to make more money and steal from the treasury again. My big question is: how much have said billionaires stolen since the beginning of covid? More then 2008, and if so, how much more? An Advocate (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

"Stolen" has a particular meaning in economic and legal contexts. I think you're metaphorically using terminology associated with theft to invoke moral condemnation, but that leaves the question of what specifically you're referring to. Without that information, your question isn't particularly meaningful. As for wealth divergence, that's a much more fundamental problem than "rich people steal their wealth from poor people or public funds" since it emerges on its own in any economic system subject to chance or in which people can freely conduct trade, unless policies are in place specifically to prevent it. (talk) 02:47, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. Define "stolen". Because farmers "stole" all that wealth from people who traded items for food, after all, people need food.Correkt (talk) 03:31, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
This is Advocate (from his tablet), I want to know how much money has been made from this pandemic, exactly. How much have mask providers made (when they should be freely available since you need them to enter stores were I live) how much the vaccine producers made (government contracts? New subsidies to develop the vaccine?) How much the food producers were/are raking in with the panic, along with toilet paper. Drug companies (which definitely made BANK), fairly obvious, I could go on forever. This is more specific, since that is what I think you asked. I used stolen because I think it conveys my emotions on the matter, and I never asked how much small farmers “stole”, I am talking about agribusiness billionaires, which I clearly asked for how much BILLIONAIRES stole. Don’t start hairsplitting about irrelevant shit like the definition of “stole”, making unnecessary money (small farmers probably are not as financially prosperous as billionaires) from disaster which makes many people’s lives very hard is objectively criminal to anyone sensible. — Unsigned, by: / talk
In a capitalist economy business exist to make money. I would say that the vast majority of business lost money during the pandemic - though some others made lots. Spending has also dropped on expensive things like holidays so some individuals have saved money too. But others have been unemployed and have lost money. In more socialist-leaning European countries some of the worst excesses of the capitalist system may have been ameliorated, at least compared to the US.
But trying to reduce the complexities of the impact of Covid on different economies to "Which billionaires made the most money?" may risk oversimplifying the thing.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:10, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
I am not simplifying anything, you are overcomplicating it. I never asked for the complexities, I asked how much theft had taken place while we were focused on covid. If you are not going to answer the question, don't write at all. An Advocate (talk) 18:32, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
So, you're saying that people stole money because they provided the tools we used to fight the pandemic? What's you definition of theft? Also, I don't know where you live, but I bet that people that can't afford masks can get them for free, unless it's a really isolated place. GeeJayK (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Cloth masks are like $5, if you don't have people simply giving them away. As for vaccines, the companies have been getting $50 in revenue per vaccine, which is not much all things considered. Correkt (talk) 19:07, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
if money is tight you can make your own mask from an old tshirt AMassiveGay (talk) 19:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
I mean, this whole argument comes across as a 14 year old whining about how the world doesn't work the way they think it should work. Correkt (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

{od}} Alright, forget the definition of "stealing" or my 14-year oldness. Forget I ever said that. Now that you have done that...

Answer the fucking question, or don't speak at all. An Advocate (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Your question is too simplistic. Zoom for instance did very well out of the pandemic as telework dramatically increased and their product became one of the dominant players in cloud based video conferences. Did they "steal" money? Well, they IPOed in 2019, and were around for several years before that. I also understand that many of Zoom's engineers came from Cisco's WebEx (a competing and, from personal experience, much shittier product), which has been around since the dotcom days (2000s). So it's not like they greedily created something to exploit a pandemic. Instead, their product (which has been around for a while) just all of a sudden became in high demand due to circumstances, and they (along with Webex and Microsoft Teams etc.) happened to benefit. I would say they more got lucky, which is a fairly common thing in the business world.
Even facial masks are in this category. Just Googling, seems like the market of disposable face masks roughly doubled. In other words, it didn't go from zero to full speed ahead. Since bulk disposable face masks are a solved problem manufacturing wise (automated machines for mass-churning out masks are readily available) and some degree of public mask culture actually existed before COVID-19 (in Asia for quite some time it has been customary for people who were sick, or even other reasons, to wear masks), and filtration products were already an established thing in medical industries and elsewhere, you have a patchwork of companies making products. There is no one company that is going to gain billions. Hell, if you take it to cloth, it's easy to find homemade. If you care about the capitalism of this matter, just find a local artist that is good with cloth and who has pivoted to making cloth facial masks. (Or hell if you can't find one (!), just go to Etsy or something. Capitalism isn't all about tycoons.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 20:06, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Alright, thank you, I was a but too aggressive in my original post, so sorry about that. An Advocate (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
(EC)"Answer the fucking question, or don't speak at all". Nobody here is obliged to do anything you so petulantly demand. If you wish do do some economic calculations then go ahead and do them yourself. Anyone is fully in their rights to respond in any way they see fit. Stamping your foot on the floor and shouting at people is not an endearing quality.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
I was writing a respone to PGGB, and for him I would like to know how much wealth had been vaccumed up to the upper classes during covid (I am certain it makes 2008 look like a 7/11 robbery). As for Bob, I apologized, but it is very frustrating when you ask a question that seems clear to you and people do not answer it. An Advocate (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
As I said - nobody is obliged to answer or even acknowledge your questions. And if they do respond, they may do so in any manner they see fit. Complaining and swearing about it is not good practice Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:33, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Because your question isn't actually all that clear? Correkt (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
It's easy enough to Google articles on COVID-19 and inequality / poverty, even though it is a bit early to see the full impact and have hard numbers. In the US, for instance, due to stimulus, poverty levels actually decreased between 2018 and 2021, but the general picture seems to be that, in high income nations (thanks to asset prices like housing and equities increasing) inequality overall has increased. The problem actually is probably be worse in lower income nations where the pandemic probably will send a fair bit of people into extreme poverty. If you focus on billionaires alone, yes, COVID-19 made some billionaires but also COVID-19 unmade some billionaires. Some of the ones that became billionaires were taking some huge risks (as Moderna and other biotech startups were) so to me it's a little more complicated than a money all evil thing. IMHO you do want to encourage these sort of business risk taking/reward system. But at the same time you want to make sure that solid safety net exists. COVID relief even in the normally stingy United States wasn't terrible, but overall the US still could improve in this department. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:53, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, PGGB, for trying to give a satisfactory answer. I am going to do some digging myself for some time. Thank you. An Advocate (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, another flood coming to the United States[edit]

Tropical Storm Nicholas formed, Texas in path. As if we needed another flood.Andrew5 (talk) 16:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Just give mother nature a snickers bar. That is how we solve the issue. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Pour Pepsi into the Caribbean Sea. That should fix it! LongStylus (talk) 22:10, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Just god's righteous punishment for Texas' restricting abortions - god doesn't actually have any problems killing unborn children like it did with with Noah's flood. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 23:21, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
I guess your right, Texas is crazy and deserves to need punish. As for the pepsi idea, it wouldn't do enough at that level. Andrew5 (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Project that I am thinking of doing[edit]

Specifically I mean doing an article on the Russian puppet state of South Ossetia. One of the many locations illegally occupied by the Russian Federation. Legally part of the nation of Georgia (not the US state), the ethnic group known as the Ossetians declared independence from Georgia back in 1992. The Ossetians after declaring independence, the Ossetians began a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. Russia happily recognized this break away state and essentially uses it as a puppet in the region.

Another note- South Ossetia recognized the "independence" of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, the Donetsk People's Republic, the Luhansk People's Republic, Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic/Transnistria and the Republic of Abkhazia. All of which are under illegal military occupation. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 01:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Could fall into an overall article on Russian policy of dominating the near-abroad as part of Tzar Putin's re-establishment of the Russian Empire. Aloysius the Gaul (talk) 02:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
You might instead think about a single article on irredentist actions made by Russia in former Soviet republics: Georgia (South Ossetia), Moldavia (Transnistria), Ukraine (Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic, Luhansk People's Republic). These are all of a piece, created by Russia as stalemated 'forever wars' to weaken and destabilize former Soviet Republics. The book The Road to Unfreedom by Timothy Snyder puts these entities in context. Bongolian (talk) 06:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Article title ideas: Russian Irredentism and Russian Occupation of Eurasian Territories. Just brainstorming. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
'Eurasianism' is the Russian irredentist idea, that in its current form, opposes the existence of the European Union. Bongolian (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

What Fallacy Is This (Again)?[edit]

"What if *EVENT X* doesn't happen (therefore it won't happen)?" ''NiciesMan'' (talk) 02:20, 13 September 2021 (UTC)NiciesMan

Hasty generalization depending on the strength of the conclusion drawn from the evidence available. Not necessarily fallacious as a statistical prediction. There are more specific terms for particular forms of this reasoning. (talk) 02:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Record number of environmental activists murdered[edit]

This article surprised me quite a bit. I knew there would be some people murdered every year, as business/crime interests + interference = some murders. But the sheer number is disturbing. ShabiDOO 08:25, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

More then tornado deaths since 2016.Andrew5 (talk) 12:46, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
This really makes me wonder how many of them were because of the Environmental activism, or if there were other reasons. Interesting article. It's Farmhand, BTW! (talk) 13:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Not all that surprised by the numbers unfortunately. After watching the Virunga documentary years ago I would have thought it would be more globally. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 13:11, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Would that number include the dumbass anti-nuclear activist who tied himself to traintracks and was hit by a train carrying nuclear waste (source:Sébastien BriatWikipedia)? And then had the nerve to turn around and blame nuclear power for the death, because a train "should've" been able to stop in time in spite of freight trains needing miles to brake? Granted that was from 2004, but still. I'm all for peaceful protest, but what did they expect to happen; the train to jump off the tracks and spill waste everywhere? Correkt (talk) 14:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Googling random names from the articles, my impression is that a lot of them fall into two categories: A) land rights disputes (indigenous peoples / traditional subsistence farmers vs. "settlers", illegal loggers, and the like), and B) the later group attacking people who manage conservation areas. Unsurprisingly the worst areas are well known for either being hotspots of gun violence, or have authoritarian shithead leadership, or more frequently have both (south Central America, Columbia, and the Philippines are the worst countries per capita for this). This story honestly is not surprising once you figure out what they are meaning, unfortunately. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:12, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Given what you are describing, I'd expect the number to be higher. I'm wondering if assuming there's a lot of other forms of intimidation going on, e.g., beatings, mutilation, rapes, and the 227 are just the ones who weren't able to be intimidated in such a manner. Correkt (talk) 15:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Maybe this is too cynical of me, but I find it not out the ordinary. In the US and Europe we get a really sterilized version of corporate human rights abuses. But this pattern of "inconvenient third worlder threatens profit margins then is killed" isn't terribly new. Environmental reasons for being an obstacle are new, but the number of dead union drive leaders in just Brazil over the past 20 years would make this number look small.
What's worse is that the local governments are often complicit at some level. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:29, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
It's a pretty depressing number of murders.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Most of us Americans/Europeans vehemently opposed the offshoring of Western manufacturing, often for selfish reasons but we opposed it. Sure, the companies didn't mind cheap labor and lax environmental standards, but the labor and standards were deliberately sabotaged by those countries in order to encourage foreign investment. In some cases such as China, they basically held the companies hostage if they didn't offshore some of those jobs to China. So now they have environmental disasters, labor issues, and murdered activists? These were the exact things we warned about, even if we only did so because we wanted to protect our jerbs.
As for what to do going forward, it varies by country. Brazil can handle its own affairs, sometimes the best solution is to butt out. Instead we should be focusing on the DR Congo; with all the industrial might of the world, cobalt shouldn't be mined by hand, by children, to say nothing of every other mineral produced over there. Help them modernize their medical programs, provide rudimentary education, and at least make a nominal effort to keep mining from poisoning the water supply. Correkt (talk) 15:00, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Just checked pretty much every major media outlet here and I only found out about one union leader being murdered, one year ago. The largest Brazilian national trade union center is just a branch of the PT, the party that governed the country between 2003 and 2016, that doesn't really make sense. GeeJayK (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
do someting about the DR Congo? hahahaha what crazy talk. that would mean actually doing something about the DR congo. not going to happen. especially now after afghanistan AMassiveGay (talk) 09:24, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
The DRC is not near any major country that's actively hostile to the US. The US failed in Iraq and Afghanistan because they were both neighboring countries that were actively and/or passively hostile to the US, to say nothing of virtually the entire Muslim world using those locations as an opportunity to get rid of their misfit rejects. The US failed in Vietnam because China and Russia were pumping North Vietnam full of guns, bombs and military equipment. Heck, the North Vietnamese had an air force with hundreds of planes. The Chinese even sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers into North Vietnam to make sure the US wasn't going to "escalate" the war by invading the North, to say nothing about helping the North Vietnamese suppress any anti-Communist revolts, which meant the war couldn't be won.
But that's if we are talking invasions. I don't think we are, and if we were, I'd say fuck it, stay out of it. It's more that the DRC needs the most basic of services such as water filtration and public health campaigns to eradicate Neglected Tropical Diseases and free condoms. As far as I'm aware, they aren't in the middle of a civil war at the moment, though they just got out of one. There's been some improvement in recent years, but the life expectancy is still less than 60, and their fertility rate is still something terrifying longterm. In the 1950s there were something like 12 million people there, and today it's over 100 million. I don't see how in 2075, DRC could support 500 million people. At some point, it's going to collapse into a genocide on the scale the world has never seen before, and that's if the DRC doesn't decide that it needs to invade its neighbors. Correkt (talk) 13:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
The DRC is one super-corrupt country with, even without war, and has a lot of rebel groups. Reportedly China's putting a lot of money into mining and other resource extraction shit over there. The chances of this being anything meaningful for the average citizen are very slim. It would be nice if resource extraction agreements worldwide had measures in place that resembled something like what Norway hasWikipedia or even what Alaska hasWikipedia, but that sort of arrangement is rare. As far as environmentalism is concerned, unfortunately money talks. Compared to relatively safer neighbors like Rwanda and Uganda, my understanding is that eco-tourism is woefully underdeveloped in the DRC. In part due to unrest and instability, no duh there. It probably will remain that way until this improves. No one wants to holiday when there's a higher than normal chance you'll be the target of a violent crime. Unfortunately, it's not surprising that several victims on Global Witness's murdered environmentalist list were from the DRC (many from one single attack on Virunga National Park rangers). PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:13, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
"Compared to relatively safer neighbors like Rwanda"
That phrase is terrifying. "Come to Hotel Rwanda! Still better than our neighbors!" Correkt (talk) 14:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Heh, tis unfortunately true. Actually The Google suggests it's not too bad crime wise these days, ever since the authoritarian shithead FPR took over when they won the well publicized 1990s civil war. A bigger issue is that you'll be supporting said authoritarian shitheads. If you want to see mountain gorillas, though, you don't have much choice there. (Uganda's not-so-great regime is your "most free" nation of that lot.) PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 15:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
So long as those authoritarian shitheads aren't causing a mess externally, it's actually not the worst case scenario to support them. After 30 years, improvements to the education system and public health might be at a point where human rights become a thing. Correkt (talk) 18:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
It's worth noting that Rwandan genocide was fairly short if extremely brutal period in that countries history. Just about 100 days with over million people killed. The African World Wars it sparked though lasted for years and took place primarily in Zaire/DRC. Arguably those wars still continue in parts of the eastern DRC. So yeah, today Rwanda is relatively safe and stable by comparison. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 04:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
its worth noting the world looked the other way during the genocide and spent those 100 days thinking up creative ways to not say genocide. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Absolutely. I've been in the never again camp since, but unfortunately much of the world seems to have forgotten. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 20:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Don't blame the US. The US still had a blood nose from Somalia, and simply can't afford to be involved in every conflict. Defund the World Police! Correkt (talk) 20:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Blaming Brits mostly for Rwanda. Belgium carries a lions share of blame for DRC, though Brits helped fuck that up too. And obviously none of the western countries gave a shit. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 20:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
According to the movie, we should also blame the Chinese for selling all those cheap machetes.
Honestly though, no one is responsible. And... everyone is responsible. Correkt (talk) 21:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
blaming the brits for rwanda? thats francophone africa. why not the french who actively aided abetted the genocide? the us and britain 'merely' complicit by their inaction. or blame the us for drc and having lumumba murderered. theres plenty of blame to go around. why look for a someone to blame when the whole of the developed world sat around with their thumbs up their arses.
its interesting that somalia is mentioned, considering the situation in afghanistan is probably having a more profound effect than somilia ever could. i wonder, if not afghanistan itself, where we will all be looking the other way next. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
rwanda happened at the same time as yugoslavia was breaking up and we was looking directly at the genocide going on there. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
we havent stopped looking away for the past 27 years AMassiveGay (talk) 22:09, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
really wish i had left this and not put all this to spin around in my head right before i try and get some sleep. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
It is not true that the entire West ignored Rwanda or Yugoslavia. Canada and the Netherlands participated in both peace keeping missions with no political or economic advantage to doing so and in both cases were not permitted to intervene despite wanting to, or being forced to withdraw to protect their own people from very likely slaughter. I know that this is exceptional (and one can hardly argue they didn't make serious mistakes) but to say that nobody cared is extreme. Clearly there was not enough concern among Western countries to effectively stop genocides just as today there is not remotely enough concern to do anything to stop what is happening to the Uighurs in China, death camps in North Korea, the Australian refugee horror camps in the South Pacific and until recently the atrocious treatment of asylum seeker children in US detention centres (still pretty bad in some cases). There may be enough concern among citizens to support measures to put pressure on governments, but politicians have little to no incentive to follow through. People care, just not enough to support sufficient activism to help people vulnerable people who desperately need help. Congo (former Zaire) is a tragic failed state, the result of extreme brutal horrific colonialism, recent toxic government enablement by western interests as well as the terrors of disease, massive corruption, civil-war, child-soldiery, massive corruption, sectarianism, political-ideologies, massive corruption, religion/folk-beliefs, massive corruption, cultural clashes, AIDS, massive corruption and a whole bunch more of massive corruption. I honestly can imagine peace in the Middle East before Congo becomes a stable and non-dysfunctional democracy. ShabiDOO 22:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
The Congo did have a chance until the CIA killed Patrice Lumumba. Honestly, the Congo will never be peaceful as long as transnational corporations still have a significant interest there. Plutocow (talk) 23:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm quite sure that 1) he was in the middle of committing ethnic cleansing in Congo, 2) his assassination was more the work of Belgium than the US, and 3) he was allying with the USSR. Correkt (talk) 02:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
1)thats at a best a half truth and massively over simplified assessment of what was going on at the time of the congo crisis and its build up 2)unvarnished bullshit 3) so what? the cold war was a succession of coups and counter coups and toppling of of unfavourable governments by or side of the other, in every case a a fucking travesty. its exactly so many parts of of the world are plagued by instability and atrocities, and the sores of colonialism and empire remain open and festering AMassiveGay (talk) 02:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
thats all decolonialism really was. not so much about independence for the colonised, but the colonisers washing their hands of responsibility, but still pulling the strings and grabbing all they can, only with the us taking over from britain as the biggest player. you can look at the world today and for the vast majority of it you can almost tell at a glance who had empires and who was subjugated. its very recently with china in the ascendance do see that beginning to change - but only for a few nations.
colonialism and all that went with it are an indelible stain on humanityAMassiveGay (talk) 03:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Not sure why I misremembered Rwanda being a British colony. Instead of Belgian one, who once again turned their greed and racism to 11 and managed to set Hutus and Tutsis at each other. Didn't even need Leopold this time. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 04:07, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@AMG, The US has a looong history of being suckered into doing Europe's dirty work. It Was primarily Belgium that wanted Lumumba dead over the whole independence thing, the CIA got involved on their behalf and was part of planning the kidnapping, but it was the Belgian mercenaries who executed him. And let's not forget that Mobutu was a lot more than a puppet for foreigners. That absolutely doesn't make the US innocent, but the "blame the US" crowd seems to always ignore everyone else that's involved. As for what the world would look like if Lumumba had lived, I don't know what it would've been but considering the end result I can't imagine it being much worse. Correkt (talk) 14:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
im not discounting the complicity of any other nation, but post war the us was/is the pre eminent superpower. as such it warrants the lion sharethe scrutiny and criticism of its actions - thats what comes with the territory of being a superpower. the idea that the us is some gullible dupe tricked into doing anything at all is frankly preposterous. you said yourself lumumba was chatting with the reds - thats all the prompting that us needed, all that it has ever needed. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
the scrutiny of its actions is particularly pertinent for a superpower that presents itself as the shining light on the hill, a beacon of democracy. its a tragedy for the world that it rarely has ever lived up to it. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

A load of bollocks. Pay no attention to it.[edit]

So epik got hacked[edit]

This will likely be interesting. If anyone's feeling ready for drafting an article on these guys (Epik (company)Wikipedia), you'll probably get tons of references in the next few days. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Separately the Texas GOP website also got hacked on Saturday by a claimed Anonymous, and, as captured by this NSFW entry, was replaced with links to donate to Planned Parenthood, references to zodiac killersWikipedia and GileadWikipedia, and some old school memes like Rickrolling, mudkips, and PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 17:47, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Same guys from what I can tell. Also might be more related than you think, the texan gop site was uh... hosted by Epik LOL. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
ARS is reporting on it already. The company seems to be fucked and Rob Monster (owner of Epik) is putting his head in the sand. This company is gonna burn down. Everything is public except for credit card data. EVERYTHING. -- Techpriest (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I knew this was going to happen. Little kids with too much time were eventually going to hack Epik as it hosts a lot of unsavory websites. Those Neocons are too dimwitted to actually find a host they can trust that isn't Epik, no, instead of that they all conglomerate over the same guys, and when the shit hits the fan, they'll have nowhere to hide. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 18:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Eh... I mean, no? Usually we don't see registrars getting hacked like this. Epik's main job here is domain registration, not actual hosting (they in fact outsource the hosting pretty much always from what I can tell). That said, I do want to note that the reason this company got every far right site under the sun is because they are the only ones doing so here in "the West". Epik and Vanwatech are (or were, I really don't see Epik recovering from this by now) pretty much the only ones willing to service the far right on first world soil. There's plenty of hosting providers and domain registrars in Russia and China with a vested interest in destabilizing the US. It's just that the far right is also extremely against both of those countries (for mostly racist reasons) that stops them from being hosted there. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Incredibly enough, you're wrong. Epik is a web host as much as Amazon's web services or Microsoft Azure are. It took me 1 minute to find the webpage presenting me the possibility to have a shared hosting, or have my own dedicated server if I pay them money. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 19:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Where do you get your information from? Where else are their servers outsourced? I have never heard of that before, this sounds like this is the perfect recipe for a disaster. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 19:28, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
If you follow the hacked GOP site and do some Googling here and there, it links to accounts on the Interwebs that are tweeting about it and offering torrents of claimed site data (180GB originally, they now have a compressed version). There's also some people posting information about the data, which includes no payment data but includes account credentials, private keys, payment history, etc. Can't verify of course, but if it's true that Epik stored their passwords in unsalted unencrypted MD5 hashes, that is spectacularly-bad-seriously-how-the-fuck-are-you-in-IT level dumbfuckery. Even 20 years ago it would have been terrible security practice. Not sure if that's what was used to break in but based on files in the torrent list there's apparently a lot of Wordpress crapola , which can also be quite "leaky" if you aren't careful. Certainly if you are the type of person who uses frickin' unsalted MD5 for passwords. If what Anonymous claims does check out, this would be quite a disaster for them for sure. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
@TransChicken - It's all outsourced. Registrars don't ever offer hosting themselves, it's practically always through a proxy because the combined effort of having to keep up a registrar and all the hassles with protecting against shit like DDOS attacks, unauthorized logins to VPS's and all the other nonsense that a hosting company has to do just isn't viable when you have a registrar with actual customers. Their original provider was Voxility, but they lost that one due to Christchurch (I think they eventually got it quietly back though, after doing a lil' shuffle and lifting 8chan and a few others to Vanwatech, who do their hosting through N.T. Technology, which is Watkins' hosting company). -- Techpriest (talk) 20:16, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
@PanGalacticGargleBlaster My guess is that they were able to guess the access passwords. Monster apparently literally used his middle name ("willem", he's half-dutch) as an access password for something in the dumps, so their security is probably a fucking joke. -- Techpriest (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Funnily enough, as I was looking up for more similar cases across registrars and web hostings, I found that this sort of amateurish security is a running problem among them. An example: Dreamhost had unprotected databases for 3 years: (Profile) - (Spoke!) 21:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────More fun stuff!

  • Epik was collecting CVVs. This is obviously illegal and probably will kill the company since the payment providers really don't like that sort of thing (basically complete security compromise for bank records of Epik customers; CVVs not being stored is the reason why most companies can safely say "yeah your credit card data is fine" when they get breached).
  • A bunch of Proud Boys have their information leaked out.
  • Bitchute and Gab both were using Epik.
  • The hoster of patriots dot win, the off-brand reddit clone of /r/The_Donald is in the breach (and identified).
  • Epik was setting the ICANN abuse emails to [userid], meaning it's easy to deanonymize people from their internal user database by using public ICANN records.

This company is fucked. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:16, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Bitchute and Gab both were using Epik. Everyone knew that already, they host all the major right-wing sites. Parler and 8chan are hosted by them. If I recall correctly, is too. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 19:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
8chan got shunted to Vanwatech. Parler got pushed on another provider. Spinster is namecheap. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:50, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

A song for solace at the end of the day[edit]

IMO a mesmerising song. It never fails to bring me somewhere else. LeucippusSalva veritate 19:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Leucippus Listen to the whole album. Its even better. BeardOfZeus (talk) 06:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
@BeardOfZeusYes, cheers for the advice dude. I must get round to listening to the whole album. I mainly heard bits and pieces of John Martyn over the years on my father’s stereo (he was a big fan of Martyn’s music). “Small Hours” left a strong impression on me, it’s just incredibly beautiful, even by Martyn’s standards. LeucippusSapere aude 17:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Am I eligible to make a new account[edit]

I was desysoped and temporarily banned for blanking pages in 2016, I expressed dissatisfaction with the ban duration and it was raised to permanent. My IP has changed since then so I could easily evade this, however I decided not to and to wonder if its communally permissible. 2603:9001:301:3600:29FA:A263:735:5F88 (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

In principle, if you don't act like the ass that you were in 2016, we have no way of knowing who you are. If you continue to act like an ass, we will continue to treat you like one. Bongolian (talk) 20:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Also, it was by a single mod. 2603:9001:301:3600:29FA:A263:735:5F88 (talk) 20:48, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
This may in fact give me a little bit of insight into this fascinating world of blanking and vandalism. I am honestly extremely curious what is the actual enjoyment people get out of doing that? Honestly, could someone explain this? I would really like to know. ShabiDOO 20:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I had not contributed to the site in some months, after the argument between Mona and Arisboch, and having had become a tankie I started inserting offensive, or ridiculous edits and blanking pages to insult the more liberal rationalwiki, with rambling gibberish and attacks on liberals, until I was banned repeatedly and requested a longer ban as I continued to blank pages, which was then extended to disabled account creation. 2603:9001:301:3600:29FA:A263:735:5F88 (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
...and that was fun? ShabiDOO 22:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I'd just go with Bongo on this one. But what was your account, I'm curious? Andrew5 (talk) 22:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Just like other banned users you're able to appeal your ban. Monet talk 05:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
It was five years ago, the user has not expressed any intention of repeating the behavior and they could simply have evaded the ban and created an account with a new IP. Respect their honesty, welcome them back and subject them to the same rules as everyone else.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I'd find it more interesting to find out how one becomes a tankie, and how one unbecomes a tankie. Page blanking is just mindless. Bongolian (talk) 07:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC) Having been to one of their bookstores (RCP US), I've actually had casual interaction with tankies. Despite their public rhetoric, they're actually kind of mundane when they're doing retail. Bongolian (talk) 07:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

"I had not contributed to the site in some months, after the argument between Mona and Arisboch, and having had become a tankie I started inserting offensive, or ridiculous edits and blanking pages to insult the more liberal rationalwiki"
Wait, are you This guy per chance?
Anyway, I agree with Bongolian and others. 5 years is plenty of time for personal growth, and I'd be happy to give you a second chance. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 07:45, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Do you guys know any Arabic?[edit]

BeardOfZeus (talk) 03:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

0. Buck (talk) 09:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Just couple of individual words I learned from a Moroccan colleague. Knight CommanderIn ServiceTo HerGoatness 09:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
I am familiar with some religious phrases in Arabic such as inshallah and mashallah, but nothing else. Any dialects in mind or just Modern Standard Arabic? LongStylus (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Everyone knows some Arabic words. Alchemy, algebra, alcohol, coffee, hazard, tariff, etc. Correkt (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
(to piggy back on CorruptUser) sure! Hummus, baklava, shawarma…Probliknaut (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Wait, isn't baklava Turkish? G Man (talk) 05:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of shawarma, it kind of puzzled me at the end of the avengers movie when iron man says he doesnt know what it is and wants try it. are kebabs that uncommon in the us? doners are ubiquitous in uk and europe (and obviously the middle/near east) AMassiveGay (talk) 09:26, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I haven't seen a döner (or iskender) kebab at all over here, and in general the word kebab—often spelled kabob—seems to invoke mental images of grilled meat and veg on a stick. Greek gyros exist, though. Kntai (talk) 09:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes, kebab (with the silly and common kabob misspelling and all) in the United States typically is thought of as shish kebabsWikipedia, which is only one of many types as we all know. It is in my experience relatively uncommon to find non-West Europe Mediterranean and Middle East cuisine in the US, though it's at least not completely unknown these days. The exception is Greek cuisine, probably due to a fairly strong Greek immigrant community that has been around in significant numbers for 100+ years in certain parts. Gyros are way more common than shawarma. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 14:18, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

The passing of the quintessential comedians’ comedian[edit]

Norm was sui generis: not just an original comedian, but an original human being. One of the only comedians who was truly fearless. Like all the great comics, he could make you laugh at things you’d never entertain normally. Dave Baddiel provides a wonderful obituary here. Here’s a touching clip of Norm foreshadowing (he was diagnosed with cancer at the time, but had kept it a secret) his own battle with cancer, and reflecting on the general public’s perception of the disease. Norm went out with dignity, stoicism and integrity—reminds me of Hume and Hitchens. Requiescat in pace. LeucippusSalva veritate 17:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

An absolutely beautiful song and music video[edit]

Never Too Late by Three Day's Grace is a great rock song about helping someone attempting to commit suicide. Perfect song for those in a dark place and telling them that there are caring people willing to help you. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 17:45, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

A rick astley troll link in 2021?! Troll[edit]

Watch it, I dare you.Andrew5 (talk) 18:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

The video didn't even play when I clicked on your link lol, try again. (Profile) - (Spoke!) 18:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Isn't that a sort of meta-troll in itself? Kencolt (talk) 21:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
We have transcended the Rickroll. Probliknaut (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Since we are all sharing music and music videos[edit]

A powerful reminder of The Troubles and war in general. Probliknaut (talk) 21:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Absolute tune. - Rairyu75 (Talk) 22:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Since we are all sharing our favourite classic youtube videos[edit]

ShabiDOO 22:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I may have started a music flood here. --Get Vaccinated (talk) 23:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Yeah u did. Though my rickroll was (somewhat) unrelated. Andrew5 (talk) 23:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

fuck it, i'm getting in on this[edit]

criminally underrated AMassiveGay (talk) 22:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

My favorite music livestream[edit] Andrew5 (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Space launch for civilizations 8:02 PM EDT today (00:02 UTC Sep 16)[edit]

30 mins to go. Andrew5 (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC) Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 02:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

North Korea firing missiles[edit]

They're at it again. If I'm recalling correctly, the last time they did this was February (or around then). Nebuchadnezzar7658 (talk) 03:49, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

At least this time they got them to fly. I can't help but root for them, especially knowing the likely fate of the engineers whose rockets failed. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 19:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Huh, they're improving. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)


I don't have other options, I was supposed to have normal user permissions this hour and now it's to infinity, Gol Dernitt.. 06:38, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I have been in trouble before. I know you're not supposed to edit userspace even if they are in bad faith.

I also don't think you're supposed to embed video, but maybe I just played a little fast and loose with that rule.

Anyway, still a Unicorns stan, not mad at anybody (talk) 06:52, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Do not embed music videos on the Saloon. It drags the system to a crawl when there are too many. Bongolian (talk) 07:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)