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# RationalWiki:Saloon bar

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## Kingdamian's post

The way that people ganged up on this guy and showered him with personal insults enrages me. For Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake! We are supposed to be rational, civilized people not a bunch of ultra-nationalist apes. It's human nature to insult people. But it is a breach of civility and etiquette to insult people when you are talking directly to them. When in a burst of anger we make the mistake to insult our fellow man we always, ALWAYS have to apologize later, especially if it is we that insulted the other first. I don't believe in moralism but I believe in civility.

Yes, I think that for a leader to publicly call a country a shithole is wrong and that the US is in some respects quite a bad country too. BUT a racist is someone that believes that the worth of humans and nations depends directly on their DNA. A racist is NOT someone who believes that poverty, especially extreme poverty combined with overcrowding severely decreases the mental and spiritual quality of human beings. A racist is also NOT someone who believes that some nations are less dynamic than others because this should be obvious to anyone. When Karl Marx called Mexicans "an imbecilic race", "lazy" and unable to do anything useful with California he was in a sense right regardless of his provocative phrasing. If the US had not been colonized by the Wasps but by the Mexicans then it certainly wouldn't be a great power today. The Mexicans simply didn't have the economic and scientific dynamism required to make a "great country", imperfect as "great countries" might be.

Speaking of Mexico, the Spanish Empire possessed more resources than Britain. Why did its vitality fade like that? Venice was founded on a swamp while Naples had abundant resources. Why did Venice become a major economic power and Naples didn't come anywhere close?

We should seriously grapple with such questions and understand that the human factor does play a huge role in whether societies fail or succeed. "Human factor" doesn't mean DNA of course. It means concrete political relations and concrete mentalities. People that have not lived (not traveled, lived) in foreign countries have difficulties understanding how amazingly different people can be from place to place in their mentality as well as regarding the organization of their whole life and existence. Gewgtweg (talk) 03:22, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't believe Kingdamian1 is a genuine racist. I do believe he is a troll. He only brought up something that Trump said months ago because he couldn't think of anything else that might upset us. You are giving him and his comments much more validity than they deserve. Spud (talk) 04:14, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
A racist is NOT someone who believes that poverty, especially extreme poverty combined with overcrowding severely decreases the mental and spiritual quality of human beings. Oh, so people who have been raised in an extremely wealthy environment with a small overall population will have increased mental and spiritual quality? That's funny, explain Emperor Nero. BobRoss (talk) 04:50, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
And Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Spanish and Mexican Inquisitions concocted by the wealthy, the savagery of Christopher Colombus and Martin Luther, as well as Genghis Khan, the Samurai, and European nobles of the feudal age. BobRoss (talk) 04:56, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Or how about this shining example of sanity and nobility? RoninMacbeth (talk) 05:19, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it's safe to say that poverty has nothing to do with the decreasing of spiritual or mental quality. Gewgtweg, ú barisa tchi ǀhárú. BobRoss (talk) 06:22, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I think Gewgtweg is defining "quality" here as the properties that result in them collectively creating a 'great' country/culture/etc. Pretty much begging the question, if that's the case. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 09:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
FWIW the decline of the Spanish Empire has a number of causes, including primitive economic theorues -- they thought that they were rich because they were sitting on piles of gold and silver, which they used for a while to finance all sorts of wars, until they devalued gold and silver to the point that the wars became unsustainable. The decline in the quality of the Hapsburgs also became a problem; to keep everything in the family they routinely married their cousins, with the end result being one of my personal heroes, Charles II of Spain. Finally, they subscribed to an ultra-Catholic ideology that guaranteed that scientific progress was something that happened elsewhere, so the Brits were easily their masters at industry and technology. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 02:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
@Spud If the guy's a troll then he should be kicked out of the wiki. Like a famous Georgian madman said, "no man, no problem".
@BobRoss, @RoninMacbeth Let's take a very wealthy country that is not overcrowded. Sweden is a good example. Compare that to an extremely poor country that is overcrowded like Liberia or Haiti. If that doesn't convince you nothing will. The fact that rich people can be criminals too is neither here nor there. Nobles often suffered from the effects of inbreeding. Roman Emperors were chronically lead-poisoned to boot. Another glaring example is the fact that most right-wing extremists come from the working classes in cities and from rural areas while most antifas come from the middle and upper classes. If you think that's chance, think again. Gewgtweg (talk) 15:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
So I guess we're just going to ignore that these "Shithole counties" are likely shitholes because of outside European influences, then? RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:13, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
The problem with places like Haiti and most of Africa is not just the colonial legacy but their lack of massification. Those "countries" are not really nation-states. They are actually societies divided along very complex ethno-tribal lines or clans and the "government" they have is mostly little more than a mob. A similar situation existed in China, Russia and most of Asia. Needless to say if this situation had not ended (with force) those countries would have remained powerless forever. In Africa the stagnation of the Soviet Union put an abrupt end to the drive to do the same thing there. Because western finance doesn't go near those places, the only hope those places have to improve conditions is Chinese investment. I wouldn't personally call any country a shithole to feel better. Before modern sewage treatment methods, the industrializing western cities were the worst shitholes on earth and nobody lived in more squalor and filth than the western working classes. Up until the 50s people still stank for lack of habitual showering. There's never a smooth transition from a developing country to a developed country. There are however factors that compound the challenges the modern developing world faces. Gewgtweg (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
So all that makes a country great is their level of power. Needless to say if this situation had not ended (with force) those countries would have remained powerless forever. Is it the purpose of a country to become a world power? Is that all they should think about? Also, what about school shootings in middle class schools that I can't afford? BobRoss (talk) 16:16, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
There are many sorts of power - Vatican/Holy See, 'Tax Haven X', San Marino preferring to be 'too inconsequential to be invaded' etc: 'the world's top 100 economies' containing a significant number of multinationals; the USSR for all its military resources was wound up like a bankrupt country; and 'someone says something that catches people's imagination and the consequences are the world changes'. Anna Livia (talk) 17:28, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
@BobRoss The first and foremost concern of any country should be to remain independent. If you cannot do that then you'll always be a (very) bad country. But like I said the world's worst shitholes are not even countries. They're a loose set of clans and tribes. Also, small prosperous countries like Luxemburg, various pacific isles etc. don't count for actual countries either. They are resorts for the wealthy and tax havens.
The fact that a big percentage of US citizens passionately defend their right to be massacred in periodic shootings just so that arms manufacturers can make money by selling to the masses weapons designed for warfare is one of those things that are bad about the US. It should put every civilized person to shame. But it has nothing to do with the rich. School shootings don't happen only in rich schools and the Americans that defend the access to those weapons are overwhelmingly working class. Gewgtweg (talk) 18:17, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps 'being recognised as an entity with laws and other relevant aspects' by those living within the territory and outside is the most significant point - what about Tannu Tuva, the Knights of Rhodes, the Southern Rhodesia (Marriage, Matrimonial Causes and Adoptions)

Order 1972 ... Anna Livia (talk) 18:43, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Gewgtweg says: "The first and foremost concern of any country should be to remain independent."
This is not correct. The first and foremost concern of any country should be to do what is best for its citizens. Continuing to be an independent country may or may not be in their best interests.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 11:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
If you resign to being dependent you will not be in the position to decide what's good or bad for your citizens in the first place. Name a single country without control over its own destiny that's better off being a toy to someone else's whims. Gewgtweg (talk) 16:57, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
So .... Do disagree that the first and foremost concern of any country should be to do what is best for its citizens, and that anything else is really secondary to this end? (Hint "Yes, I agree" and "No, I do not agree" are good, concise options.) Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:05, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
You are working from a false dichotomy. The point is that unless a country is independent then there's no way to do what's best for its citizens. So securing and safeguarding independence is the primary concern. The rest comes after that. Gewgtweg (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

#### Gwrgrwrgwrgwrg is totally right

You know Mr. or Mrs. Gwrgrwgrgwrgwr I cannot believe the nerve of users here who have the gall to attack the good faith of RWRW and his insightful arguments on a variety of stimulating topics it just seems to me that the moral fabric of rationalwiki is going the way that family values are. It's almost as if us rational and mostly atheists take pleasure in imposing our arrogant sense of superiority to other people who come here to simply chat and shoot the breeze. I remember when I was young, when this whole internet was just fields of grass, that there was some civility and people respected their internet elders ShabiDOO 21:35, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

There's only so much warmth people can spare when they disagree with you. But they can and should be civil. Compared to most places, RW sure does unusually well in the civility department notwithstanding occasional excesses. Gewgtweg (talk) 05:53, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
I do not tolerate users that denigrate groups of poor people. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 18:45, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
"to attack the good faith of RWRW and his insightful arguments" Ummmm…. I think you're getting me confused. Kingdamian made the post. --RWRW (talk) 19:08, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

## Extremely large numbers in mathematics: how do mathematicians figure out these numbers?

Like Graham's number, Rayo's number and googolplex. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 18:17, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Of the three, the last two are not really useful for anything, so not really worth talking about. The first is hypothetically useful for cryptography. Finding large primes is technically simple computationally difficult. The dumb way to do it is the same way you're taught in math class. There are some tricks for weeding out non-primes, which can speed up calculation, particularly on a computer, somewhat. Bongolian (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
To add on that point, in higher level mathematics mathematicians aren't terribly interested in performing calculations with these numbers. In many cases, these numbers arise as a result of sequences that grow incredibly fast (look up the busy beaver problem or other non-computable functions). Another common source of these incredibly large numbers comes from combinatorics, as an example in my Topology class we briefly discussed upper bounds on how many valid topologies exist for a given finite set (the number is very large). The unifying feature is that these numbers aren't as interesting in and of themselves as the process we use to describe them. (Vaguely related video and another one that touches on what Bongolian brought up regarding cryptography). Samstr (talk) 21:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
As for Googolplex, well... they simply made it up. No calculation was involved. (This isn't a bad thing, actually.) You can find the reference here-- googolplex Kencolt (talk) 01:45, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Numbers larger than twenty-four are witchcraft. Nobody has that many fingers and toes. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 18:26, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
What about real numbers less than 24? No one can count to 3/2 or [math]\sqrt{2}[\math] on their fingers or toes either. And we haven't even gotten into the negative or complex numbers yet. Samstr (talk) 21:06, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
It is possible to count to 3/2, at least, with the assistance of a sharp enough hatchet. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 01:09, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Well, if you're going by Yakuza math... Kencolt (talk) 02:25, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Yan, tan, tethera… and the Wikipedia page on finger counting. Anna Livia (talk) 09:47, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

## why sometimes victims indeed more than deserve their share of blame

This is not a defense of the "Just World Hypothesis". The world is of course not fair and people don't get what they "deserve" because nobody "deserves" anything. What someone "deserves" and does not "deserve" depends on moral judgements and moral judgements are, whether we realize it or not, always subjective.

What's more, there's no necessary link between what we consider "deserving" and what we choose to do. For example, there's many people I know who don't deserve kindness. Is it nevertheless a smart thing to treat them with kindness? Yes. Another example is this: Did Japan which attacked the US and committed a ridiculous load of crimes in Asia without ever seriously apologizing for them "deserve" to be rebuilt on our money? Of course not. Was it a smart thing to rebuild it? Yes, because it enabled US post-war hegemony.

And yet this is not logically incompatible with accepting the notion that victims are co-responsible for their misfortunes. This is because in many cases victims are not powerless to stop what's victimizing them. They're simply afraid to use the power necessary to stop it and this terror becomes a partner to their defeat. (victim literally means "defeated" in Latin).

Another reason that people fall prey to criminals are their false beliefs. A believer in alternative medicine who buys quack products is co-responsible for his humiliation. A believer in anti-vaccinationism is a partner to his preventable disease. An abused wife who believes her husband "loves" her despite all evidence to the contrary is co-responsible for her mistreatment.

During the holocaust, the victims to be crammed in a room and poisoned outnumbered their executioners who relied for the smoothness of the murder procedure more on deception and intimidation than on firepower and fences. If a single transport had the guts to disobey the instructions to surrender all belongings, undress, line up and instead tried to overrun and neutralize the staff, then the entire machinery of murder would have stopped. The successful uprising in Sobibor only happened because they sent a group of Red Army soldiers of Jewish descent there that were determined not to die like that. If they hadn't been unlucky, almost the entire staff would have been wiped out and escaping in a controlled manner would be possible.

There are users here who support the view that it's not worth to aggressively try to stop humanity's slide into the abyss when our finite world and our abuse of the environment start to kick global civilization in the teeth. The younger you are the greater your duty in convincing others that it's worth fighting back and that docility is more dangerous than defiance. But defiance has to be vigorous and violent to be successful. If your plan for defiance is "green technologies" then you are essentially proposing pleading for mercy or praying, which is indeed a form of fighting back, just an anemic one. Gewgtweg (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

You have no empathy nor historical understanding.
Various forms of non-violent opposition can work - Mahatma Gandhi, Rosa Parks, The Power of the Powerless, The Good Soldier Schweik/dumb insolence... etc, and for solutions to work they have to be long term they have to be sustainable. The war of all against all/permanent war achieves little more than violence begetting violence and feuds that last for centuries. The end of Communism in Eastern Europe started with a picnic - and the Soviet Union by a signature on a decree banning the Communist Party and three political leaders meeting in a forest.
Another component is education - and allowing multiple routes to communication at different levels. Anna Livia (talk) 19:31, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
"Did Japan which attacked the US and committed a ridiculous load of crimes in Asia without ever seriously apologizing for them "deserve" to be rebuilt on our money? Of course not."
A lot of citizens in Japan have nothing to do with those crimes and want nothing to do with them. To "get back" at Japan and not rebuild them would hurt people and would backfire. Retribution, especially "us versus them" nationalistic tribalism is not a constructive way to build relations that would benefit both sides of people. We should work with Japan and correct their past wrongs in a cooperative manner.
"An abused wife who believes her husband "loves" her despite all evidence to the contrary is co-responsible for her mistreatment."
This is a horrible, morally bankrupt sentiment to have. You have absolutely no understanding of what happens in an abusive relationship. This is exactly what an abusive party would argue to its victim. What you fail to understand is the abused party is essentially brainwashed to believe several things: the abuse is "not" so bad, the abuser is not a monster because the abuser is a human who has troublesome mental health problems and buys the victims gifts and shows genuine love for the victim, and the victim constantly blames him/herself for transgressions that led to the abuse. This abusive behavior may seem obvious to you, but the victim was not raised in healthy circumstances to realize how truly bad the relationship is. The abuse cycle is a well-recognized cycle and this sort of "it's the victim's fault too", for not being magically able to see past his/her own experience and magically know how a "healthy" relationship looks like, exacerbates the victim's lack of self-worth and confidence, as the victim is already in an extremely vulnerable emotional state due to the abusive upbringing and extremely receptive to criticism and it's mighty appalling.
I've been through emotional abuse and I believed that my ability to not do much effort to achieve independence is my fault. I also downplayed the horrible things my dad said and done to me, blamed myself for being such a spoiled parasite (and I engaged in self-harm to communicate my pain and show myself how much I deserved getting these marks on me), and I was shocked when I told my story to the best ability when other people reacted in such a horrified way. Hearing this sort of "it's the victim's fault for remaining in an obviously bad relationship" is extremely dismaying for me to hear, but it's also not grounded in reality fortunately, and I now have perspective from people who were raised in healthier relationships, but people who lack perspective may internalize your remarks and will hurt them even more.
This is not a problem of victims, this is a problem of communicating people what is "normal" and what is not normal. A victim lacks resources and perspective to know what's wrong and what's right. Yes, in therapy, it's up to you to make the changes, but we need to acknowledge that those changes are incredibly difficult and even though victims may not be able to see how unhealthy their abusive relationship can be, blaming this sort of thing on the victim is short-sighted and neglects bad upbringing that influences this sort of thinking in the first place. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:51, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
This screed is utterly revolting and without value. What in the world does the author hope to accomplish by subjecting us to this? Cosmikdebris (talk) 22:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario I didn't remotely suggest we should get back at Japan or anything. On the contrary, I said that it was a smart thing to rebuild it after the war. It's just that one could argue convincingly that they didn't deserve this. The Japanese have not apologized for their wartime conduct. Unlike the Germans, they never dealt seriously with the atrocities they committed against other Asians. That's undeniable and it's a criticism directed collectively at Japanese society, not individuals.
I think it's obvious from my phrasing that I am not dogmatic about this. There are times when victims are co-responsible for their suffering and times when they are not. Your situation was apparently in the latter category. When a parent is emotionally abusing their child that's entirely their fault.
@Cosmikdebris Was it so insufferably revolting that it didn't deserve a brief counter-argument? Gewgtweg (talk) 23:09, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewtweg - #you are a verbal abuser# - no ifs no buts. Anna Livia (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Maybe it sounds like a compelling case, but ideally, we should enact only the best solutions. That solution might make sense if you're a retributive type and your worldview doesn't take concern in citizens that are classified as helpers of the enemies. But I think on a worldview where cooperation has demonstrated to be successful, it's not a superior option nor is it morally palatable to me. Who are "the Japanese"? It's the responsibility of the government officials and those who have powers to do this. If the higher ups refuse to swallow their pride, I don't take it really as the collective fault of the Japanese people or "society" (I'm not sure the distinction is meaningful). Yes, maybe the sentiments are bad but people in general should make an effort to push toward uncomfortable truths and I don't fault Japanese citizens for expressing false nationalistic sentiments, I fault propaganda and an inadequate education.
And about abuse, I'm not sure where your reasoning applies because as I said, abuse affects someone's thinking to this point. It's really hard to fault a victim when an abuser has warped one's thinking to the point one does not recognize abuse as abuse. Even if the victim is in self-denial (I mean, I was but I don't blindingly love my dad and it was cathartic to hear someone call a spade a spade and say he's an asshole when my mom, who also suffered from him, kept saying "it's all our fault" in a similar way you're saying this, in this self-defeating manner and my brother, who also suffered from him, said things like "dad's going through a lot and is paying for our stuff so we shouldn't be mean to him like this"). My mom says what you're saying a lot and I used to believe her, but this sort of "this is the victim's fault too" sort of led to my own destructive behavior, and so I'm really offended and concerned that that kind of advice is applied to other forms of abuse. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:22, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
You said, "During the holocaust, the victims to be crammed in a room and poisoned outnumbered their executioners who relied for the smoothness of the murder procedure more on deception and intimidation than on firepower and fences. If a single transport had the guts to disobey the instructions to surrender all belongings, undress, line up and instead tried to overrun and neutralize the staff, then the entire machinery of murder would have stopped..." in a thread entitled "why sometimes victims indeed more than deserve their share of blame". The way I understand history, these people were driven from their homes, had all of their possessions confiscated, stuffed into cargo trains, and transported across the country like livestock without food or water. And you seem to imply that in some way they "more than deserve their share of blame" because they didn't fight back against soldiers armed with automatic weapons? This is what I find so vile about your screed. I fail to see how such atrocities and barbarism inflicted by one set of human beings by another implies any fault on the part of the victims. Cosmikdebris (talk) 23:32, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
All that can be said for this pathetic viewpoint is that Gewtweg is open about it rather than saying it behind a façade of 'reasonableness.'
Gewtweg - I could say what I really think of you #but you are not worth it#. Anna Livia (talk) 00:10, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
@AnnaLivia I didn't insult anybody. Etiquette, please.
@LeftyGreenMario I believe we both agree that people need help to overcome abusive circumstances and the false beliefs that support them. After all, that's why specialist counselors and therapists exist. I don't rationalize any abusive behavior. Just said that a lot depends on how we respond to the people doing harm to us. I agree with you that in order for victims to be able to respond, they need to receive help. That's precisely the reason why I encourage many people in the environmentalist movement to stop being depressive or apathetic about degradation and resource shortages. It pains me to see how difficult it is to get the message across.
@Cosmikdebris Take the example of a bullied kid. Part of the blame for getting bullied lies with the kid doing the bullying. Part of the blame lies the kid being bullied and part of the blame lies with the other kids that don't interfere to stop the bullying. All of the three parties have the power to stop this. The kid doing the bullying has the power to stop doing it. The kid being bullied has the power to fight back and the kids watching the bullying have the power to interfere. All three have more than their share of blame and that includes the kid being bullied himself. Am I saying that the bullied kid doesn't deserve help? The answer is NO.
You are exaggerating the actual power of the perpetrators. Their most effective weapon were not their "automatic weapons" (which weren't really much present at the time). It was their use of psychology and camouflage like fake training stations, fake shower nozzles, hygiene posters, flowers and music to foster an impression of harmlessness. They told them they'd receive a shower and then work and eventually reunite with their families. Many people sensed what was going to happen, especially those from the East. Suchomel confirms that in his interview. If just the men chose to disobey then the whole machinery would be clogged because their far greater numbers could easily overwhelm the staff. But fear paralyzed them. And while they often sensed what was going on, they chose to cling to the hope that they are telling the truth. When a woman ran around in Auschwitz alerting people to the reality, people insulted her and called her crazy. Unfortunately the instinct of human self-preservation doesn't always work the way it's supposed to. So yes, the deficiencies of the human self-preservation instincts play a huge role.
So part of the blame lies with the perpetrators, part of the blame with the victims and part of the blame with the millions of people that did nothing.
Am I rationalizing the genocide? The answer is a resounding NO. Rationalizing means devising ways to claim that the victims "deserved" to die. All I am saying is that they could have protected themselves and their dignity far better than they did. From watching interviews with survivors, I think that what's troubling them the most, was not the homicidal hate of their killers because there's not much you can do to change that anyway. It is the question of why they allowed this to happen to them. Gewgtweg (talk) 00:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)arg
Of the disturbing things grwrgwrgwrgrwgr has said so far in his concern trolling rampage, I'd have to say the Jews not fighting back as their trains arrived to the death camps" the most grotesque and sociopathic. Gwetgtwegttgewtegtwe, in order to understand how people behave and why people behave the way that they do, you need to take a step back, look deeply at the circumstances and ask yourself what the majority of people would do in that situation...and of course many (if not most of these cases I imagine in your case) will be remotely similar to the kind of karate-awesome-ninja heroics you of course would have pulled off in that situation.. For starters, a large number of them were children, terrified children. Few commandos there. Also included were women, many of whom had little to no defence training let alone fighting experience in their lives, most of them housewives, all very very terrified. Amongst the men, I'm sure many had never picked up a weapon in their lives, nor even got into a fight, nor had any idea how to operate a gun nor, at that moment, many of them being elderly, most of them being starved, having to stand up on a train for at least 20 hours, starving, freezing cold, terrified, no idea where they were going and burnt into their memory was the image of hundreds of armed German soldiers forcing innocent fellow Jews to go where they were told and shot if they didn't. Their train ride was likely the third, fourth, fifth time they had been marched somewhere else into increasingly smaller, inhuman, dense human zoos. First out of their homes to a ghetto, likely then crammed into a smaller living space, then crammed on a train, processed at night time in a transition camp, possibly separated from their loved ones and friends having little to no emotional support, arriving at a camp in which there are rumours that bad things happen to Jews, or maybe you just work and survive until the end of the war. Each step of the way, every single fellow Jew who stepped out of line or even looked at a guard the wrong way, was instantly shot and a fellow Jew was forced to drag it's body away.
I'm sure you see yourself as a superman. Perhaps the ubermensch. On a train full of people who've been traumatised with the worst horrors imaginable, multiple times, weakened, starved, kept dazed and confused, flinching at the slightest noise, trying to stay alive, many too young or too old or zero fighting experience, void of any information on the number of people who are likely to shoot them if they so much as move out of line, no, in no situation in the history of the world (and I imagine the universe) would a train full of such people ever ever ever revolt. Unfortunately very few of them on the train were awesome-warriors like you, impervious to sustained psychological trauma, able to overcome extreme fear and extreme tactical disadvantage, extreme lack of information, jump right out of psychological conditioning by cruel armed and abusive oppressors, confusion, weakness, lack of sleep, starvation, terrified wife and children next to you, little knowledge or experience fight with people, and finally the knowledge that even if they escape the rest of the millions of German soldiers occupying the entire country will almost certainly find every one of them and execute them...their whole family included. If the train happened to break the near impossible odds of being full of human-God's like you...then yes...they may have revolted. In that circumstance, I would suppose that if the train were all full of ex-elite-soldiers and they did nothing...the tiniest little sliver of blame might fall on them, and even then I don't really think so...no I take that back...that's still a stupid statement to make. But you know that's not the case. And to put any responsibility of their endless oppressive, murderous, cruel suffering...shows a complete inability on your part to empathise with other who aren't ubermensches like you are. You cant seem to put yourself in the place of a wide variety of others not like you and you seem to have difficulty with basic statistics, a basic understanding of human psychology and a shocking ignorance of WWII history and the holocaust. You also win the big prize not just for the most revolting thing I've read on rationalwiki, but also the prize for "the intelligent person most capable of not saying stupid things yet goes ahead and say something cosmically moronic" award. See you on mount Olympus or Valhalla or at the super-hero-squad-headquarters. ShabiDOO 01:28, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
You fail to understand a very basic thing about how this machinery of murder worked. The extermination camps depended for their function on psychology and intimidation. They did not depend on huge numbers of machine guns and a great number of well-armed and well-trained troops. Many guards were simply former Red Army buffoons from the Ukranian peasantry that had been captured in 1941 without a serious fight. Auschwitz-Birkenau depended on this smooth procedure even more than camps like Treblinka. This means that if at least half the people had simply refused to follow the instructions and run around like headless chickens, the machinery would break because there was not enough raw force to suppress such a tumult at any given time. That's how delicate the machine was. You don't need to have "battle experience", be a "superman", or a male in his prime to trample a few guards as part of a crowd and waste them. You just need the courage to disobey and decide that after all it's better to die resisting than at the end of multi-step process that you meekly co-operate with. From the simple firing squads all the way to the chambers, there was too little resistance in this genocide and there's no denying that.
Remember the Turkish coup? Hordes of people tried to stop the rolling tanks by literally getting in their way. The magnificent bravery of the Turkish people that night was what saved their current dictator. Those people were simple civilians. They were no soldiers or Navy Seals and yet they resisted because they, quite simply, had guts. Turkish bravery is actually a century-long stereotype that you can find in English literature. In fact they owe their post-world war 1 survival to those guts. The Jews on the other hand were not such a people at all. They were well-known for their docility and servility and the Nazis mocked them for it. It makes sense. They had always lived in subordinate positions for ages and were accustomed to humiliation. It's natural that docility became a part of their mentality. They weren't resisting because they believed that as long as they accepted humiliation at some point they'd stop humiliating them. The guy responsible for the Sobibor uprising commented that the Nazis believed that the Jews had no fight in them at all. He said that they grew way too comfortable around the camp inmates and that it was this mistake that almost wiped out the entire staff in Sobibor. After his escape, you know where he went? Back to the Soviet Union by evading the "millions of Germans soldiers" occupying the country. Other survivors stayed with the Polish resistance.
So don't exaggerate the German sway over occupied Poland. The head of the General Government commented on the lack of control that made partisan activity effective and bemoaned the paucity of police forces that Berlin sent.
If someone wanted to commit suicide wouldn't you tell them that there's always light at the end of the tunnel if they have courage? That no situation is unconquerable? When we talk about resisting death and humiliation by a predator state somehow courage doesn't matter because it's supposedly all-powerful.
Can you imagine someone in the trains saying "hey, we can't keep doing what they say, let's just resist" and someone replying "shut up! how can you be so ignorant of how human psychology and basic statistics work? We'll have no choice but to obey and take it". This is exactly what you are saying. And it's as ridiculous and pathetic as it sounds. Gewgtweg (talk) 03:59, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
The turkish coup was not the same thing as the holocaust. Are you insane?
The revolt in the Ghetto is not the same as getting off a train after a 20 hour frozen starving trip with no idea whats waiting for you. That's preposterous.
The revolt in the Ghetto ended up with nearly everyone shot
Those who stopped cooperating in the camps would be shot. The few who are physically strong enough, know how to use an automatic weapon without disjointing their shoulder and who are nourished and able to fight the guards with automatic weapons, might take down a few soldiers but those few brave souls who think they are a hero like you will be mowed down quickly. In the very off chance that they manage to get hold of a few guns, the whole country is occupied by LOTS of germans. You'll all be mowed down or in the worst case the entire camp will be bombed. And absolutely no one will survive the war.
And no...I cannot imagine more than a few psychotic idiots who think they are, like you, superman. The moment they tried it, everyone would be shot and executed, some dying slowly of extremely painful wounds in the freezing snow. Is that the final result? Playing futile hero and suffering your last breath...without knowing precisely what actually awaits you?ç
You have some bizarre hero fantasies, likely born out of unrealistic computer games and bad action films. I highly doubt if you were even slightly under the horror of oppression and suffering and pain and more horror ... that you'd possibly act the hero. In the unlikely chance you do...you'll be shot and if you aren't hit in the brain or vital organ, you can enjoy your last minutes screaming out in pain. But at least you gave the guards an excuse to randomly shoot 20 other people.
You're beyond hope gqtrgrtqgrtqg. Why don't you find some other website to concern troll? ShabiDOO 04:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
This is depressing. What would you do if you was being taken to Auschwitz, or Dachau? How would you convince the others to revolt with you, a Mel Gibson Brave Heart speech? BobRoss (talk) 05:03, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I shouldn't be taking the bait of your bullshit. People usually don't want to die. Even if there is one person with one gun with ten bullets versus 50 unarmed people, chances are they will successfully hold them hostage if they so choose. Those that maintain their wits about them might realize that they can rush them, but most people aren't crazy about running towards a gunman. And depending on the precautions the Nazis took, they might have ensured they had enough firepower to ensure that half the people died while they were rounding them up, which would have really put doubts into the victims. And the Jews being docile? Then what about the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians that were killed in many similar ways thirty years earlier? Also a bunch of docile folk who do as they're told? Besides, didn't you 'leave' this site a few months ago because you weren't getting enough intellectual stimulation here, since not everybody jumped into every post you made? You're fakakta ideas don't raise you above the rest of us, they just make you insufferable.Teurastaja (talk) 05:33, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

"The Turkish coup was not the same thing as the holocaust. Are you insane?" As if that's what I said. But according to you apparently, facing up to guards is just way scarier than facing up to tons of moving steel.
"The revolt in the Ghetto is not the same as getting off a train after a 20 hour frozen starving trip with no idea whats waiting for you. That's preposterous." I never mentioned the Warsaw ghetto uprising. I mentioned Sobibor. Sure those at the ghetto (who you just called insane for wanting to die honorably) ended up getting shot. But nobody should have allowed themselves to be marched like cattle into the ghettos in the first place. Your lack of familiarity with the sources shows when you assume all transports were filled with half-dead people physically unable for any resistance.
You rebuked me for supposedly not knowing my history when you don't even realize that handheld automatic weapons were not really used much back then. Few troops carried even sub-machine guns despite what you see in movies. Most soldiers were issued rifles and these weapons are not very effective when it comes to taking down moving targets quickly.
People have been resisting homicidal oppression for ages. They didn't need action games or supernatural abilities to be inspired. All they needed was courage which you for some reason assume only heroes are capable of. All you need is encouragement and a spike of andrenaline. Sobibor succeeded because a few courageous people inspired those who had submitted to their fate to change their thinking.
I cannot believe you're claiming non-resistance was rational because it was the only way anyone at all could survive the war or because death from a gun wound after resisting is somehow worse to dying from a gun wound after standing on the edge of a mass grave, choking on gasses in a chamber with hundreds of others, being worked to death or perishing from starvation and exposure. I cannot accept that. Yes resistance against someone with a knife who just wants your money is irrational and you are better off not playing the hero. Resistance against systematic homicidal oppression isn't just rational. It's the self-evident thing to do regardless of whether you succeed or not. I am not saying that resistance should be mindless. But if you develop an obsession with resistance, eventually you will find a way to hurt someone and it's better to die having hurt an enemy than having hurt none of them. Only sheeple could possibly disagree with that.
We're getting off topic. The point I wanted to make is that the whole operation operated less on strong muscle and more on the fear (and false hope) of the victims and that if that fear (and false hope) could be overcome there would be more survivors than there were. There were strong partisan groups willing to help those who helped themselves.
You have mentioned nothing about the other examples I mentioned where victims have a duty to help themselves. What about an anti-vaccinationist? If you excuse people not resisting a genocide because they are no military specialists maybe you'll excuse an anti-vaccinationist for not having an medical degree in college. Gewgtweg (talk) 07:25, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Teurastaja You are comparing armed robbers with enforcers of a genocide. If you think that genocide is not worth resisting, fine. In similar ways? That's only partly true. And there was an Assyrian and Armenian genocide. According to Mark Mazower there was not really a full-blown systematic genocide on Greeks just a violent expulsion and sporadic massacres following defeat in war. Thanks to Venizelos a full-scale genocide was averted (as well as a genocide of Turks in Greece). Fun fact: The Christians of the Ottoman Empire had been the true aggressors as they were working with foreign powers to partition the dying empire and get a share for themselves. Turkey was defending itself and the Turks probably would have faced the same fate if they had won. Everything seemed lost but Ataturk inspired them to fight back.
Were those peoples docile like the Jews? Probably not as much. But they were/are definitely less brave than the Turks. One of my favorite rascals, Lord Byron, described the Greeks as a people with all the bad traits of the Turks but lacking their courage. Makes sense. They are a byzantine relic and have been for a very long time deprived of freedom. Even after independence (which was achieved thanks to foreign troops) they have essentially never quite been an independent country. In 1940 they stupidly chose to obey the British than drive them out. That way they could have prevented a hopeless war with Germany over the Romanian fields. Instead they were slaughtered to buy the British time. They were the first country to have a CIA agent as its leader (Papadopoulos). They resigned to being a debt colony in 2010 when they could have forced a restructure and made only one weak attempt to get out of the prison in 2015 (essentially just one single person made the bold attempt, a guy called Varoufakis). Most seem to irrationally believe a Venezuelan Armageddon would come upon them if they dare not to be a Brussels colony like Kosovo. So indeed, that's all very docile. I don't know about the Assyrians but I am sure Armenians, as a merchant nation, were a lot like the Jews although nowhere as urbane. They carried many of the same stereotypes as the Jews. And they, like the Assyrians have been without freedom for centuries.
At any rate, unlike the Jews, which Nazi propaganda among other things falsely claimed had betrayed Germany in ww1, the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians had indeed betrayed and undermined Turkey in ww1 and paid the price. The thought that they had the backing of foreigners drove their docility out... for a moment. If they had been good little ethnies as they had been for centuries maybe they would have kept their necks safe. Pech gehabt like the Fritz says.Gewgtweg (talk) 07:25, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewgtweg - don't tell me to use etiquette when you are being controlling-abusing - and you #are# blaming the victims.
In your mind you are an ubermensch - in the garbage you spew is what RW and many other collaborative groups are working against.
Now. Go. Away. And. Stop. Polluting. The. Wikiverse. Anna Livia (talk) 09:39, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
grwereewergr,
You are hyper-symplifying the hollocaust so that it fits in with your warrior-fantasies. It was the culmination of hundreds of years of slow oppression which doesn't resemble in the slightest your naive dreams of warrior glory solving their problems. Every response you give disturbs me more and more your last one being just scary. You're an intelligent guy and clearly sociopathic...you'll make a great far right Republican House Representative. Maybe you should focus your intelligence and sociopathy there where some souls will ever take you seriously. ShabiDOO 18:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Alright, I'll keep it brief to save you as much disturbance as possible. It wasn't the culmination of anything. It wasn't fated to be. It was just a very stupid decision made by a handful of extremely prejudiced people. If Röhm had taken control of the party, it wouldn't have happened.
When someone wants to kill you, you have a duty to warrior-fantasize. The inspiration and ideas such fantasies can give you are your only chance if not of survival then at least picking the time and place of your demise and simultaneously hurting someone. It not about glory. Just maintaining a minimal sense of dignity. And remember, the more you resist, the more your contemporaries or future generations will sympathize with you. It runs against the economy of the psyche to passionately support people that don't apparently support themselves as passionately. That's something that only heroes can find it in themselves to do.
If by last response, you mean the response to Teurastaja, then I recommend avoiding history books like the plague. The standard fate that vanquished troublemakers have to endure might freak you out a little.
As for your insults, I won't do them the honor of a coherent response. Gewgtweg (talk) 08:21, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewgtgqwtgqwtgqgwt. That's nice. I didn't read anymore of your sociopathic bullshit. I just saw the last line there saying "I won't do them the honor of a coherent response" which is strange because of all the things you've said...being coherent is never the problem. Your sentences are all easy to understand...that is a gift...some of us aren't good at that. But you made a mistake here...because your actual reply was a coherent statement. "I won't honor that with a coherent response" actually is a coherent response. So yeah. You kind of botched that one up. Anyways, good luck with your coherent and sociopathic bullshit advocacy. Do drop in from time to time. ShabiDOO 08:32, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
You are committing a logical fallacy. A coherent response to your insults is not the same as a statement that I won't bother with a response to them. A coherent response to insults is arguing why they don't hold water and I already did that once with another guy a few threads ago. Just suffice it to say that if you think only tiki-torch carrying maniacs or republicans can say anything negative about the conduct of nations (and by extension, the nations themselves) you are dead wrong. I've seen the most progressive people bad mouthing in very impolite terms nations that seem to follow a wrong trajectory. And obviously you've never read Marx in your life. He isn't famous for being the intellectual father of the GOP but wrote many nasty things about many nations. Gewgtweg (talk) 10:39, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Blah blah blah blah...sociopathic bullshit...blah blah blah blah blah blah. Its unbearable. Massive-gay pretty much swept your arguments (putting our attempts to shame). I've put you on my ignore list as I'm sure many others have. ShabiDOO 22:28, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

when hitler took power the rights of jews were systematically taken along with their jobs, their businesses and their money. they were then forced into ghettos. overcrowding - 7 - 8 people to a room, starvation diets of around 250 calories a day, a lack of sanitation and disease epidemics swept through the ghettos. the method of control by the nazis was brutality. the slightest fractions meant death for the offender and dozens of others. no goods or medicines went in and no jews were allowed to leave. then came deportation to the death camps. loaded onto trains, 150 to a carriage. journey times were typically 4 days. they were not allowed of in this time. sometimes they were days before they even left. on the carriage the whole time. no food, no water, quick lime on the floor. over crowding was on so great people suffocated. on arrival over a thousand would be dead. in one case, the entire train was dead on arrival. then after enduring the hell of that journey they stimbled off, split in two groups. the larger group, the vast majority, unaware they had moments to live, having been told ther were being resettled in the east, were marched into the gas chambers and murdered. the remaining suffered more starvation, more disease, more brutality until they too died or survived till liberation. this all well known. all well documented.

during this time the jews did resist. throughout nazi germany and occupied countries, jews were active in the resistance movements and as partisans. there were over a hundred uprisings in the ghettos - thousands died. it did not halt genocide. there were uprisings in the death camps, again hundreds of deaths. treblinka was out of action for a mere month. it not end the genocide. this is all well known. all well documented.

i can see none. no argument has been made in this thread shows me either. no argument has been that is has been made that shows what the jews should have done that is remotely connected the reality of what happened. and no argument supporting the myth of the jews as docile. their actions during the war - partisans, resistance members, uprisings says something completely different. there was no 'docility' on the part of the jews that cannot be explained by the starvation, disease, trauma, and the nazi deception and sheer brutality. what argument there is is so over simplified, plan wrong or simply irrelevant, its difficult see how they could be made someone who is even slightly aware of what went on. the conclusions are not supported by any shred of fact and show a delusional belief what could have been achieved. considering the verbose manner in which it is presented, it is stunning in how light on substance there is.

there has been so much written and said about the holocaust that it must takes a staggering degree of wilful ignorance or terminal stupidity to suggest that the victims of the holocaust, the jews and all the rest, should have and could have avoided it all, or to suggest, as the opening post suggests, in any way deserved or were in some way responsible for what happened. google it. read up on it and leave your delusional ubermensch fantasies behind.

AMassiveGay (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

the above is a summary. i was going to respond to every point made but there were just too many and so mind numbingly idiotic that its just wasnt worth effort. honestly, this summary is far more than was deserved. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Great. Another moralist with reading comprehension problems.
Obviously, when a well-organized bureaucratic state with massive resources targets you for genocide, the chances are stacked against you. I never suggested that the Jews could have avoided massive material and human losses. Still, there could have been far more survivors than there were. A mistake many people made was not emigrating when they had the chance because they believed that it was just another temporary wave of antisemitism of the kind they had known before. Centuries of humiliation had conditioned the Jews to think like that although the genocidal hatred was clearly visible.
Another mistake many people made was not fleeing Poland as soon as the invasion happened.
Another mistake was allowing themselves to be marched into ghettos. This was decisive because those "human zoos" to use an expression by Shabidoo were the central pillars of the Nazi extermination program. Without those ghettos, the organization of the genocide would not have been possible.
The final mistake was allowing themselves to be deceived into taking a "shower" or allowing themselves to be paralyzed by fear because as Suchomel made abundantly clear in his interview, they actually sensed what was happening. If a few had disobeyed instead of following through as instructed, they could have given a very hard time to the meager security forces and the organization of the genocide would not function as smoothly as was necessary. That the trains could be handled around the clock was an absolute imperative for the murder operation to work. That's because the genocide was a state secret as the Nazis wanted to implicate as few executioners as possible.
And no, your argument that all people were too physically weak to resist is nonsense. There were crucial differences from transport to transport and individual to individual.
Your argument that die-hard anti-Semites were all over the place is also nonsense. Many survivors survived because the population helped them out. Going to the Soviet Union or better yet, joining strong partisan forces was possible and did happen. Those who, like you, underestimate how well-connected and resourceful those partisan forces were, and insist in the all-presence and omnipotence of the occupiers prove they know shit about the Nazi occupation of Poland.
Yes, the effort at Treblinka failed because of sloppiness. But your argument that failure was unavoidable is nonsense too. It's refuted by Sobibor which worked in the same way. The escape operation there however was executed brilliantly and if bad luck had not got in the way, a smooth escape would have been possible.
It is beyond any doubt that more people survived by helping themselves immigrating quickly or finding somewhere to hide than did by liberation. The latter only survived because the Nazis didn't have time to kill them all.
The holocaust was the most efficient genocide ever carried out. At no point of history were more people killed by an executioner that sacrificed so little in personnel and materials to the act. Most people assume this must be because the Nazis were marvelous killing-machines and commanded a super-efficient state with complete control of occupied territories. But this is actually very far from the truth. This genocide was so astonishingly successful not because the Nazis were flawless criminals but because the Jews were very adept in being victims. And yes, this was cultural. Even a superficial acquaintance with the history and life of the Jewry would suffice to see into this. But since you don't have the education required for this insight just explain to me why the Turkish mob charged into rolling tanks to protect their elected head whereas an American can barely fathom this happening, let alone doing it. Is that not cultural at all? Gewgtweg (talk) 23:40, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I am genuinely confused as to how you think that Jewish minorities could have possibly stopped atrocities committed against them by a militarized nation. I'm sure that you'll write a response telling me that a group of starved and tired civilians, many without any military training, could have prevented genocide simply by disobeying orders. It is a position so divorced from reality and common sense that I can only imagine it being rooted in delusional hero fantasies (which you claim people have a duty to have). In direct contradiction to your theseis, there were Jewish resistance cells (pardon the wikipedia, but I don't think your argument deserves any more thorough debunking). However, despite this and multiple uprisings within concentration camps, Jews were unable to stop the Holocaust. Your initial point was poorly thought out in the first place, but I find this example in particular truly appalling.
I think that, in combination with what everyone else has said, shatters the crucial point in your argument that Jewish victoms of the Holocaust could have plausibly resisted genocide. However, there is another point crucial to your argument that I think also requires closer examination; you have implied, both here and in the previous example and that of domestic abuse, that victoms are at fault for their own psychological manipulation. This seems especially bizarre to me. Why should people be held responsible for falling pray to manipulation and deception? We are all only human, and there are many instances where our brains fail to respond to stimuli in the most rational manner. It is both absurd and appalling to think that anyone should be blamed for failing to see the abuse and danger that they face, especially since almost all people will respond in that same manner when faced with the same set of stimuli. Samstr (talk) 02:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Bob tortures Sally. Is Sally responsible for the decisions and/or actions of Bob? Yes or no? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 02:28, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
@Samstr" I am genuinely confused as to how you think that Jewish minorities could have possibly stopped atrocities committed against them by a militarized nation". What part about these three simple sentences did you not understand? "Obviously, when a well-organized bureaucratic state with massive resources targets you for genocide, the chances are stacked against you. I never suggested that the Jews could have avoided massive material and human losses. Still, there could have been far more survivors than there were."
Yes, there was resistance. There is resistance against the gun lobby too. Do the words "scale" and "effectiveness" tell you anything?
It's stupid to imagine that I suggest Jackie-Chan heroics as the solution. What I'm saying is that if determination to avoid death and humiliation had been more powerful than terror or the idiotic hope that they'll let them live if they become industrial slaves, then more people would have survived. Determination to live doesn't mean to go action-movie badass on them as you guys naively think. It means fleeing, rioting, planning escape, hiding or simply spitting on someone rather than undress and get into a line. All of those things did actually happen. Just not at the scale needed to give the executioners a much harder time. The reason for that was fear and false hope ergo lack of courage. Plain and simple.
There was a dude called Alberto Errera. Now that guy was badass. He was arrested as part of a partisan movement. Working as a Sonderkommando in Auschwitz he tried to convince his "colleagues" to escape. But they didn't want to follow and Alberto tried it alone. Ernst Klee says that he stunned two guards and was shot dead while trying to cross the Sola river. Numbers have power. If more people had joined him in his attempt he might have succeeded. But at least he preserved his dignity and those who refused didn't. Not all victims are cut from the same cloth.
"since almost all people will respond in that same manner when faced with the same set of stimuli." Nonsense. Even a grade school kid can refute that. Some kids get slapped and fight back. Other kids don't. It's the same stimulus.
It's amazing what you guys do. You are rationalizing getting slaughtered whenever and wherever the executioners decide because they were supposedly all-powerful and resistance totally pointless. You are not realizing it but essentially you're siding with the stronger party.
Ok, sometimes people can't find the courage to protect themselves or stop doing things that are harmful for them. So what's your point anyway? There's no referee in life that will stop the game and put things in order. By being born you assumed a body and you became its administrator. As its administrator, you always carry a greater or lesser share of responsibility for it.
@GrammarCommie Context please. When a criminal breaks into a home and rapes a woman it's the rapist's fault. But still, some women can and do resist effectively while others are paralyzed by fear.
When a criminal dies as a result of his criminal life or an addict dies as a result of his addict life, they are at fault (too) because they chose this life and didn't stop it in time. Gewgtweg (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Your arguments concerning rape and Holocaust victims ignores context and mitigating factors, thus you will be granted none. Further, the question is a boiled down version of your arguments, and thus requires a boiled down answer. Yes or no, yay or nay? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:15, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
"...ingores context and mitigating factors, thus you will be granted none". When you inject dirty street drugs from dirty needles into your body there's no mitigating circumstances. When you join a gang because you want to be tough and don't like living in "misery", there's no mitigating circumstances when you get whacked by another tough guy. At least make an effort to explain to me what mitigating factors you see so we have something concrete to talk about.
No your question is not a boiled-down version of my arguments at all. It's actually a very lazy attempt to argue your point by not arguing. Look at the title of this thread. It says victims are sometimes (co-)responsible. Obviously, a person that's unlucky enough to be killed by a maniac is hardly co-responsible. It can be argued though that at least in some cases many such crimes wouldn't be possible if the victims hadn't been as trusting and had refused to do things like get into someone's car etc. Gewgtweg (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewg, is it possible that you really are this thick? are you really so simple? each and every one of your points relies on jewish people knowing exactly was going to happen to them and exactly when it was going to happen to them. they did not. at any point. it assumes knowledge at times when the nazis themselves did not know their ultimate fate. its a running theme in everything i have read, the lies and deceptions of the nazis, they did not know when poland was invaded, they did not know when they were forced into ghettos, and they did not know they were walking into gas chambers. this can all be found within seconds of googling.
you assume resources and skills that simply did not exist to effect plans that are embarrassingly optimistic. jews did flee when they had a chance - it was not enough. they did resist - it was not enough. how could it have been? any resistance before the ghettos would have been crushed by the might of the german military. everything after was crushed by starvation, disease,and extreme brutality. try to understand what that does to people. you mention partisans as if they had the resources to do anything. do you know what partisans did? we know soviet partisan did not care. we know jewish partisans were too few to do more than they already did. we know allied forces did not help. you think large numbers could break out and successfully escape? the planning and resources needed for that with virtually no help? its simply delusional. at every stage. that you think minor setbacks would cause the whole nazi programme of extermination would collapse is just laughable.
and the most insidious assumption that through 'docility', through cowardice, through poor choices, they somehow 'allowed' this all to happen. this is just unvarnished antisemitism. it relies on a distorted view of history, a ignorance of key facts. it relies on ignoring the physical and mental horrors that went on, downplaying just how horrific it was. you accuse me of exaggerating the effects of starvation and disease, that i overstate horror of the conditions in ghettos and the trains. i did not state them enough. again, google it. in seconds you wil find pictures of hell everywhere. the trains were far worse than i described. i didnt mention the pitch darkness. i didnt mention how would you shit. where you would shit? the docility you mention. jewish partisans and resistance movements squash that idea. docility in the camps and ghettos - do you not think the humiliations, starvation, disease, the brutality did that? do you not think that this was the point? to dehumanise and crush the spirits of the jews to better control and finally murder them? everything from stripping of their rights to herding them like cattle into gas chambers was to this end. a deliberate policy. but you claim this was a choice. that they allowed it happen. you justify this claim with poor history and antisemetic canards 'adept at being victims'. they allowed themselves to be taken to ghettos, they allowed themselves to suffocated in trains they allowed themselves to walk knowingly into gas chambers. its a disgusting suggestion. look at how you phrased it 'allowing themselves to be paralysed with fear' - what the fuck is wrong with you?
all this is well known and well documented. it is a not difficult thing to acquaint yourself with the facts. throughout all this you have displayed a sneering arrogance that belies the incoherence and asinine nature of your argument. i have difficulty in gauging whether you are generally antisemetic or just monumentally stupid. i think a little of both. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:13, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Your modus operandi is this. You begin by putting stuff in my mouth. After that, since you can't read properly and contextualize what you are reading, you assume I assume things that I absolutely don't assume. Then you "refute" them and proceed to claim that you've shot down my arguments and that I'm thick, ignorant, horrible and blah blah blah.
Let's take this sentence "...each and every one of your points relies on jewish people knowing exactly was going to happen to them and exactly when it was going to happen to them." Nope. They didn't need to know exactly what was going to happen to them. But they did have all the information required to know how radically and murderously anti-Semitic the Nazis were. That's why some Jews were emigrating from Germany when they took power. That's why some Jews were fleeing Poland when they invaded.
I never denied that the murder operation ran on deception, numbskull. BUT it was entirely possible to see through it and information leaked out relatively quickly in the form of rumors. Suchomel, an actual perpetrator who was there tells of how people were waiting in line naked in the cold and how the ground was covered in shit from their fear. You think those people didn't know they were going to die? He tells of a girl that was getting her hair cut who asked "how long is it going to last"? Don't underestimate the intelligence of the victims like that. Suchomel makes it clear "Sie haben es geahnt, sie haben es geahnt". "They could sense it, they could sense it". Their courage can be put in doubt. Their intelligence can't. I am doubting the former thing whereas you are doubting the latter even if you don't realize it.
People in the East had been treated like garbage long before they were forced into the ghettos. There was no excuse about standing in line and going where they told you to go. Irrational hope got the better of them because there was no leader, no figure to inspire them to do otherwise.
You talked as if the "mighty German army" was genuinely made up of beings with superhuman abilities and that God himself did their intel work for them. The "mightly German army" was not adequately mechanized and dependent on horses, infantrymen were issued clumsy rifles and had other military priorities. It was a few elite armored formations and the professionalism of the old Prussian generals that really gave them victory. Poland is a big place with all sorts of holes to hide in. If you think that police or infantrymen would have been able to smoke out all Jews who refused to march into the ghettos and dispersed in the country then you are mistaken.
You are mocking the Polish partisans which did help the Jews and did receive help from the allies. They were not Afghanistani goat-herders living in mud huts that had to face an enemy armed with the modern hi-tech like contemporary America. Even with all advantages America enjoys over the insurgents, do you have any idea how hard it is to eradicate them?
The Nazis had serious trouble repressing the Polish resistance and partisans, not to mention the gigantic Soviet partisan army. Like Clausewitz wrote, "in war every little thing is difficult". The German soldiers and policemen were not robocops so get that out of your head. Occupying a country is a very complex undertaking and at no point were the German authorities able to effectively administer the conquered territories. Their war against two superpowers kept them from doing that. The disaster in 1944 Warsaw happened because the Polish resistance did something enormously stupid. You can't defeat an army without being an organized army.
Sobibor happened and it is documented. The heroic souls that organized this had to contend with the same fatalistic nonsense you regurgitate.
Yes it is entirely true that if the trains couldn't run on time, the Nazi program would collapse. Like I said, it was a delicate operation and a state secret (of course the information had leaked to the soldiers in the east and to some people from the population). Operation Reinhard did actually collapse, it just happened too late.
I am not really anti-Semitic. The Jews were a people with their peculiar negative traits. All nations have certain negative traits that define them. This fact of life is undeniable to people that are actually familiar with many nations which is not what Americans usually are. Nevertheless, I think the worse thing the Nazis ever did to Poland was wiping out its Jews which were its best people. The (Western) Jewry was indeed one of the best things contemporary Europe had. The Eastern criminals and peasants that the Nazis employed as collaborators in this genocide were one of the worst things contemporary Europe had.
"it relies on ignoring the physical and mental horrors that went on, downplaying just how horrific it was." I don't doubt those horrors for a moment. Like one Nazi perpetrator said commenting on the realism of the movie "Escape from Sobibor", "Reality was far worse. No movie can capture it." But I don't believe as some people do that Nazi brutality was worse than whatever the world had known previously. Humans have the capacity to overcome fear and false hope. In a world where Islamic radicals have the iron guts to do what they do for an evil cause, then anybody can be inspired to fight for a good cause, no matter how hopeless it seems. Unfortunately, not many Jews were like Alberto Errera. Cowardice has always been a vice of nations that have known humiliation after humiliation and subjugation after subjugation. But naive humanists the likes of you cannot wrap their minds around that. People all over the world are supposedly the same and react in the same ways. Gewgtweg (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
they should have known, they could have done more─ they should have done more. the entirety of your argument.
please explain how huge numbers of people can leave their homes and disappear for no inkling of what was to come. where would they go? who would help them? what would the invading russians have to say about it? where would they find food and shelter? how many people would able to live of the land or know how to? saying poland is a large place with lots of hidey holes is not an answer.
please explain how resistance movements and partisans, polish, jewish, soviet, already do what they could along with combating nazis, directly and indirectly, could find the resources to rescue, hide, and feed huge numbers of jews? simply saying they gave the nazis problems is not an answer, and please note suggesting the task is an impossible one is not 'mocking'.
please explain how minor delays or problems with the holocaust trains would have broken the extermination programme when trains would often take days before even leaving the gehttos, be delayed wait for military trains to pass, and train be lines constantly being bombed/damaged? or explain how any problems unloading or unloading couldnt be sorted by the addition of a couple machine guns? just saying it would is not an answer.
please explain how the effects of starvation, disease, constant terror, and extreme brutality does not make many of the actions you propose unlikely or even impossible on scale necessary to even dent the final death toll of over 6 million (the Sobibor rising you keep referring to, success is defined by about 50 people surviving. it proves nothing), or how any other peoples would have fared better. remarks on the human spirit or poor comparisons to unrelated an dissimilar events are not answers.
if you think you have been misrepresented then you clearly cannot even understand your own words and what they imply, you fucking imbecile. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:04, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Your criticism of my coulds and shoulds is shallow. We live in a very fluid world, a world of possibilities where many things could have been different. The fact that something happened the way it happened doesn't mean it was the only way it could happen. If we interpret what happens from the point of view of what happened then we become retrospective prophets. Why was the holocaust the most efficient genocide ever carried out? This question cannot be answered if all you really say is how terrified people were to do anything and how powerful the occupiers were.
The Polish Jewry could and many did go to the Soviet Union where they could be put to work or be drafted in the army. The French Jewry could and many did go to England. The German Jewry had to emigrate quickly and many did or there's was nothing that could be done. Most of the Jews who escaped the genocide did so because they got clever quickly and put as much distance between themselves and the perpetrators as possible. The second group with the highest survival rates were Jews who were sheltered by civilian populations or protected by their government (i.e. the Jews of Bulgaria). The third group with the highest survival rates were Jews attached to partisan units that controlled huge swathes of the countryside given that the Nazis never effectively controlled the rural areas anywhere in the occupied territories and least of all in the East. The last group were the ghosts that were liberated. That simple fact speaks against the notion that individuals were objectively unable to influence the outcome of their fate significantly.
Once again, you prove that you have no idea how humongous the Balkan, Polish and Soviet partisan movements were. They were not capable of providing luxury hotel service but they were more than capable of providing a basic shelter, some bread, water and a gun. But why do you think that the Polish resistance started to help the Jews in earnest only after the ghetto uprising? You can't complain for lack of help if people aren't convinced you are more of an asset than a liability. Of course, there were Jews willing to actively fight for their survival but if they hadn't been so few they could have built a massive resistance movement themselves and they'd not have to rely on others. The massive practical problem with this is that the Jews were just not a fighting-worthy bunch much as you think that a few instances of resistance here and there refutes that. No it doesn't.
Maybe you are getting informed of that for the first time but the holocaust was a state secret. It wasn't supposed to happen in the eyes of the whole world. They didn't want it to leak to the Allies, to the soldiers, to the populace at home or even the German military command for that matter which they feared was looking for excuses to do a coup. The reason an SS military wing was created was to protect the Nazi regime from its powerful German enemies. They knew that there would be trouble it if became known and in the back of their minds they also feared that if evidence cropped up in case of defeat or overthrow by the German bourgeoisie they'd have to answer for it. That's why they terrorized the perpetrators with threats if they spoke about this and went to great lengths to hide the evidence, even unearthing and burning corpses. If the Jews had been significantly more rebellious then the Nazis would be forced to hunt them down in a more crude and open manner. That would have huge repercussions. I know it seems a simple prejudice to you, but whole populations can be extremely difficult to repress and terrorize whereas other populations are quite easy to slap around. If Jews belonged in the former category the Nazis would have trouble on two fronts. It would be more taxing in terms of personnel and materials to put them down and they would be more politically vulnerable to criticism.
Jews from poorer areas in Eastern Europe were more likely to be helped out by civilians because poor communities are accustomed to relations of obligatory solidarity. Richer Jews were often despised and maintained little connections with the local people. But those richer Jews had the means to quickly emigrate. The incredible unwillingness of most middle-class Polish Jews to leave their wealth behind and run was their fault alone. Hitler could barely make a secret of his warmongering and his aspirations to conquer the east. You didn't have to wait till 1939 to find out and if you were a Jew you should be paying more attention than anyone. And besides, middle-class Polish Jews felt closer to the Germans than to the Poles. They were more than happy to live in a country without a Polish government or Poles and thought they'd get along fine with the occupiers because their non-socialist credentials would protect them. That's how stupid they were. Believe it.
The trains run around the clock. The factor that usually disrupted this process was not "waiting for other trains to pass" but the fact that the handling capacity of the extermination camps was getting clogged by the amount of processed cargo. Do you think that if that mass of people rioted a couple of machine guns would sort the problem? There were from time to time a few people that refused to follow instructions and had to be dragged around and beaten. But the disobedience was not enough to disrupt the process even if the possibility was there given the mass of numbers. Obviously that's a very bad way to try to survive but at this stage nothing more useful could be done.
I repeat, there were differences from transport to transport and individual to individual. There were indeed cases where the majority of a train was dead on arrival. But not all were half-dead ghosts when they came in the labor or death camps. Still however, if someone managed to arrive there, they probably hadn't been resisting very much in the first place.
Even if one person survives because of resistance where otherwise zero would have survived, then resistance was a massive success and made all the difference in the world. Everybody that died resisting cannot be blamed for resisting. Everybody that died without resisting can be blamed. It's human nature to honor fighters, not helpless victims. That's why women prefer to fuck the former over the latter. That's why society celebrates the former, not the latter. If we honor victims, we don't do it because of any serious compassion unless they are family or friends. We just do it because we're conditioned to respect taboos. Your entire argumentation is nothing but an attempt to defend that taboo.
And may I remind you, the thread was NOT about the holocaust. I haven't noticed you taking issue with anything else I said. The thread was supposed to explain why victims are not as helpless as we commonly assume since a lot depends on how we respond to people that want to do us harm. When we respond to terror with being terrorized, and to false hope with being deceived then we become partners to our victimization. You haven't explained your problem with that logic. Gewgtweg (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
People latched onto your example regarding the Holocaust because it was probably the most egregious and offensive point you made. Indeed I'm not sure that I would be able to think of any more potentially offensive examples.
All that being said, and to continue in this discussion against my better judgment, I think you are moving the goalposts. Initially, you claimed that there are examples where victims share blame for their abuse. I think it is uncontroversial that blame implies a statement of duty. If you can be blamed for something, there is something you should have done. Using the basic assumption that 'ought implies can' we can infer that your statement further implies that there is something that victims could have done to prevent victimization. Showing that resistance is impossible is sufficient to refute your original claim. According to the very elementary logic and assumptions used, showing that a victim could not have prevented or successfully resisted attack is sufficient to show that they cannot be blamed for being a victim. However, you seem to have shifted your argument somewhat, to one that focuses on whether or not individuals should resist victimization, regardless of efficacy. In the last paragraph, you state "Everybody that died without resisting can be blamed. It's human nature to honor fighters, not helpless victims." Here people are blamed not for being victims, but blamed for making no attempt to avoid that fate. I contend that this is a different point than the one you initially tried to argue.
Now on an unrelated note, I would like to amend what I said earlier. While the statement "almost all people will respond in that same manner when faced with the same set of stimuli" is an overgeneralization when applied to individuals. I would still contend that there is a fairly limited range of responses to stimuli, especially in life-threatening situations. However, while the statement may fail for individuals, I suspect that it does apply to a greater extent when considering groups.Samstr (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
for some reason my post was removed. no matter. it was answered with more of the same assumptions and wishful thinking with zero evidence. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. none has provided. your other non holocaust claims didnt warrant anytime spent rebutting as they were so asinine. have you never heard of battered wives syndrome, for instance? i am done with this. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:10, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Hey. That was my bad per your comment disappearing but it seems to have been restored. Not sure how but I seemed to have butchered the saloon bar with old and new content. That being said...think dipshit sociopath has used up his bag of intellectual-fraud-methods and will start recycling the same ole tricks again. For what it's worth I was very impressed with your knowledge, brevity, patience and self-controlShabiDOO 22:25, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
@Samstr.
Obviously there's a correlation, no matter how thin it might be, between being victimized and failure to actively resist victimization so I think you're making an arbitrary distinction.
You are talking as if we live in a world where it's possible to know in advance when resistance will be successful or not. Resistance always carries greater or lesser risks depending on your situation. Obviously, a concentration/extermination camp is not the ideal point risk-wise to start with resistance efforts. Yet as long as that chance exists it should still be taken, it's rational that it should be taken. You claim that effective resistance was impossible. Again we must look at the situation. If by "effective resistance" you mean that it wasn't possible for the majority to survive the camps then you are right. At that point it was indeed too late for most people. But if you mean that 0 could have escaped because of resistance and 0 guards could have been slain and no amount of mass rioting could have disrupted an extermination process that relied on so little stopping power and personnel then you are very wrong.
"effective resistance" is situation-bound and defined by the value of what was achieved, not just the number of casualties. Soviet resistance in 1941 was totally pathetic as most of the soldiers in the platoons were literally unarmed and as incompetently led as possible. Was resistance effective? Absolutely. Because even though it didn't repel the enemy it bought crucial time that ultimately prevented a defeat that many at the time, including the Americans, thought was irreversible.
About the stimulus issue as applies to groups, I ask you to explain why Native Americans made such notoriously bad and rebellious slaves and why Africans made relatively good slaves. The answer is background. The natives made poor slaves because they were accustomed to living in a more easy-going and egalitarian social environment and often preferred death to lifelong servitude. Africans did not come from such societies but more complex kingdoms.
The orderly behavior of the Jews had to do with their background too. They were not a fighting-worthy people and this is the reason they failed to set up a decent resistance and partisan movement that could have saved countless lives and cost thousands of casualties to the Nazis. That's not an exaggeration. The Jews were not a tiny minority. They made more than 10% of the Polish population. Up until the early 20th century no person doubted that some groups have evolved to be more suitable to fighting than others. The fact that today even a distinction as ancient and elementary as that is suspect of racism has to do with developments in our culture after the decolonization era.
I think that when you succumb to the 300th lash of your master, you carry a huge responsibility for it. Unfortunately there is no divine authority that will intervene to enforce what is right. It is up to us to take whatever action is required and to decide whether we will reclaim our fate or cede it entirely to the discretion of others. Spartacus and many others like him, famous or unknown to history, were willing to pay the price and proved that any notion of justice without courage is simply a theological idea. They proved that any notion that resistance is futile helps only the perpetrators. Gewgtweg (talk) 22:59, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

## Expansion of the Universe and the Multiverse

Watching some science videos and it got me to thinking; what would happen once our universe is empty and while it expanded it collided with a younger universe? --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I have heard this one idea of the Big Bang being caused by two universes colliding and destroying each other, so maybe that. 𝔊𝔬𝔞𝔱-𝔈𝔪𝔭𝔢𝔯𝔬𝔯 𝔅𝔦𝔤𝔰 (𝔴𝔬𝔯𝔡𝔰 𝔬𝔣 𝔴𝔦𝔰𝔡𝔬𝔪/𝔞𝔠𝔥𝔦𝔢𝔳𝔢𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔰) 00:21, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
The question seems incoherent to me. If the two universes in your question mechanically interact, what makes them two universes and not two blobs of matter in one universe? I cannot meaningfully understand your question. How do they "collide" if they don't even occupy the same set of spacetime? What's this question mean, in much more concrete terms? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 00:43, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I will explain the best I can, as I am terrible with physics. I mean if our future universe collided with another universe on the same time plane. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

So our universe from say, one minute ago, somehow leapfrogs one minute ahead and the one minute ago universe suddenly fills the same time and space as our own universe and as a consequence our universe and the one minute ago universe that has jumped to our time...explodes? If so...does that create a big bang? Is that what you mean? ShabiDOO 01:44, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Interesting question. A simpler question is what would happen if two galaxies collided. The answer has already been surmised: not much, because galaxies are mostly empty space.Ariel31459 (talk) 02:01, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Come back in a sufficient number of million years when the Andromeda Galaxy and the Milky Way are interacting and we can discuss the matter further. Anna Livia (talk) 09:41, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Some people don't want to wait.Ariel31459 (talk) 14:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
For some clarification, not much at all happens on a human scale when galaxies collide, but quite a bit of disruption happens on a much larger timescale. There are plenty of images of actual galaxies colliding, thanks in particular to Hubble.[1][2][3] Bongolian (talk) 03:32, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Bongolian, as I understand it there are several ways a galaxy collision with ours would effect us on a human scale. If we are particularly unlucky and find a cluster of stars have been flown in our direction or a cluster from say, closer to the centre of the other galaxy where star density is extreme, then we will be exposed to a lot of radiation, a lot of different kinds of radiation especially if they are all enormous stars or singularities. Another possible problem would be the possible doubling the number of meteorites, ghost planets, fly away moons and a number of other objects that would, on a very unlikely scale crash into Earth, but on an unlikely but not far fetched scale, disrupt our planets orbit creating climate disaster or the quick boiling or freezing of the planet. There are in fact numerous ways the Earth would find its orbit disrupted be it the gravity of that large cluster of stars mentioned earlier, large group of nearby singularities, or our star being slingshot at enormous speeds. We'd certainly have a lot of time for warning and preparation, thousands if not millions of years but in these cases, if we still cannot find a way to live on another planet or possibly another solar system...we'd be toast. I think Trump should call up for a Senate Committee for the preparation of possible galactic collision preparedness. It's never too early to hope for the best but prepare for the worst!!! ShabiDOO 05:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
For universe collisions, the idea that you refer of the Big Bang having been the product of the collision of two previous ones probably refers to one present in string theory, where that would be the aftermath of two branes having an intimate moment. There're also people who interpret some signals in the cosmic microwave background as the product of the collision of our Universe when other bubble Universe (think on inflationary theory) during cosmic inflation, but that could just be pareidolia, and I think I've seen commented elsewhere that other bubble 'verse collided with us, the effect would be like a quantum vacuum collapse (see the article here about the Ultimate Fate of the Universe).
As for galactic collisions, the space between stars is pretty much empty -if the Sun was a bearing ball with a diameter of 1 centimeter, Alpha Centauri would be 300 kilometers away- so the risk of them even in the mess of the collision between our galaxy and Andromeda is pretty much nil. Closer approachs are another thing and the Oort cloud, that at that scale is at around 75-100 kilometers or a bit more, could become messed up sending comets to the inner Solar System (more risk of collisions with any planet). Really close approachs, enough to disturb or worse planetary orbits, would be unlikely to happen -Neptune would orbit at around 30 meters of the Sun at that scale- however and simulations show the most likely fate of the Sun is to be flung out to the outer reaches of the merger remnant, where stars are few and far between. Panzerfaust (talk) 12:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
The risk isn't physical collision, it's gravity flinging us to an alternate, not-so-alive, orbit. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:24, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
I've already mentioned the probability of that happening would be quite low. Not sure the minimal distance that a rogue star would need to approach to mess with Earth that way, but even if it was around Jupiter's orbit that means said star would have to pass at 5 meters of the Sun in that scale model. Note also that you don't need an approach so close -one enough to alter the orbits of the outermost (and most massive planets) could cause gravitational interactions among themselves that would transform the Solar System into a mess (see caveats on the Nibiru article).
However those concerns may simply be academic. By the time the merger between Andromeda and the Milky Way takes place it's expected Earth will already be uninhabitable due to the increasing luminosity of the Sun even if the red giant phase was still billions of years ahead. Panzerfaust (talk) 22:37, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Okay, yes, the helium-burning sun thing would absolutely come first, but also, a white dwarf star, or even a brown dwarf, passing within jupiter's orbit(that's only 5 AU) would be incredibly disruptive to our orbit. I was thinking more like Heliopause as an outer limit for any kind of problems. I guess a .03% chance of that happening is still pretty small. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 01:44, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
@Shabidoo "I think Trump should call up for a Senate Committee for the preparation of possible galactic collision preparedness. It's never too early to hope for the best but prepare for the worst!!!" This was said by a person that is not willing to do anything to prepare for the realities of resource shortages. Galactic collision preparedness is just more urgent I guess. Sigh. Gewgtweg (talk) 22:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Gegwtegwtegwteg's comment summarily ignored. ShabiDOO 20:47, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
How mature of you... Gewgtweg (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

## More San Names!

Xu, a crater on Rhea, the second largest moon of Saturn, is named after ǃXu, a San god. I say this should be done more often, why does Latin have to take the spotlight? Western civilization has brought so many indigenous languages to extinction and pretty much does little to at least let a few fragments remain. The Salishan languages, Koisan, Australian, all dying without so much as a legacy. Scientists should do what they did with the crater, but this time with newly discovered species. BobRoss (talk) 07:29, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

If they can't maintain their lingos nobody can do it for themselves. And we can't name every little thing in the universe with an actual name from a real language. We can use a code of numbers and letters. Gewgtweg (talk) 14:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I've long thought that any future discovered planets and minor planets ought to be named after demons or infernal deities. Give the astrologers something to chew on. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 18:30, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah Gtweggrrtwergrtergwwrew, there's clearly a limited number of objects in space to name...if we name every star after every God we drempt up in human history...there would be none left...right? I'm sure you're better at math than I...am I right? Naming a single object after a God of a now extinct language (in part thanks to us) as one of the sole remains of a culture encompasing millions of human beings over centuries is clearly unreasonable. The correct name for a star shouldn't be Chalchiuhtlicue but instead "IRAS 04509-6922". Shall we tear up their ancient books and relics and throw them on the fire too? ShabiDOO 18:37, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Wake me up the day stars and stuff start using the names of video game characters. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 18:55, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Already the case. There's the trinary system called "Ms. Pacman" in Galaxy XXX666 right next to the "Donkey Kong galaxy" in the "Green-turtle-that-start spinning-around if-you-jump-on-it-and-knocks out-red-turtles and-you-if you-arent-careful" supercluster. Though I think "The day we wiped out the last Newfoundland Native speaker" would be a more appropriate testament to logic and reason. ShabiDOO 19:50, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Shabidoo for your support, at last someone who hasn't ascribed to the algebraic abominations of modern science. I think giving actual names to stars and planets would keep them from getting mixed up, especially if the names describe the planet's features. Proposing a system where IRAS 04509-6922 and IRAS 04509-6921 exist side by side is clearly demonic and an insult to the Gǁàòànsi. BobRoss (talk) 20:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewtweg - the answer is - people other than you have empathy and imagination, and are willing to use names and interesting words from other languages because they can. (Caesar adsum iam forte, Pompey aderat.) So long as the words are memorable and pronounceable the more the merrier (and perhaps there can be themes and aide-memoires in the choice of terms).
And people on other planets elsewhere in the universe #are having exactly the same discussion right now.# Anna Livia (talk) 23:03, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I know, how about I make a petition on www.change.org? I'll request that NASA rename the exoplanets discovered in 2018. Sound good? BobRoss (talk) 00:22, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
@Shabidoo There isn't just stars you have to name. It's craters, asteroids and so on. And yes, even magical deities end sometimes because it's not practical to borrow names from languages totally alien to the phonology of English. For a guy that can't help himself making fun of my username, you should have noticed that "IRAS 04509-6922" is pronounceable whereas "Chalchiuhtlicue" is not. If a person that speaks the language where that name came from heard you pronouncing that, he would laugh at you and you wouldn't be laughing back.
You've mistaken me for a Carl Peters kind of guy or what?
@AnnaLivia It's very tempting to simply ignore you as any person probably would that is trying to discuss something in depth or isn't a troll fed by your notorious touchiness. But I am a more compassionate person than the human caricature you have in mind, so I'll pretend for a moment that you're worth replying to.
A name of unknown Gods and demons is simply a combination of letters and it doesn't help you memorize anything. And it's not like you (or me for that matter) would need to memorize a lot of them anyway. Only professional astronomers care where the heck IRAS-93353252 is and what the heck it is made of. Laymen only care if it's identical to earth.
There is no evidence of extra-terrestrial life, much less human life. Gewgtweg (talk) 09:43, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
My 'notorious touchiness'? If you #were# compassionate you would not be blaming the victims in the manner that you do, and you would not belittle other points of view.
Makemake is more memorable than 2005 FY9 or 136472 - and perhaps astronomers wish to emphasise that their subject is part of the totality of human experience and knowledge.
I am self-confident, have a female username and know that I have added to the sum of human knowledge - and I choose to contribute to RW (among other places). What about this statement means that you feel you have to belittle me? Anna Livia (talk) 10:35, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
@AnnaLivia You fail to distinguish between someone who is blaming ONLY the victims and operates from an ideological point of view and someone who blames a number of factors including the behavior of victims themselves and operates from a non-ideological point of view. The fanatic or the sire of war criminals will say "they deserve it". The naive humanist says "it's all on the perpetrators". The nihilist says "look, there's many grey zones here".
If I say that responsibility for school shootings lies not just with the NRA and politickers but also the American public as a whole, which stupidly advocates getting shot by weapons designed exclusively to kill humans, is that blaming ONLY the victims for you? All I ever said is that victims carry their share of responsibility. I know it is taboo, but it's true.
The problem with the world's menu of deities and magical beings is that they run out and are very often hard to (mis)pronounce. Unfortunately the phonology of English has its limits. Combinations of numbers and letters don't end.
You can't address strangers and say nothing beyond stuff like "you lack compassion and imagination", "you are a verbal abuser no ifs and no buts" and "I could say what I feel about you but I won't" and "stop polluting the wikiverse and go away", and "don't complain and leave". There is something called basic manners goddamnit. I don't care how confident you are or how feminine your username is. You will obey manners if you wish to be respected.
You have added to the sum of human knowledge? Seriously? That is a very bold statement to make. Where's your ground-breaking academic or scientific research? I want to see it. Gewgtweg (talk) 11:29, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Names of other cultures are used 'cause the names of Greco-roman (etc) mythology are pretty much exhausted, especially on what refers to asteroids and of couse to be inclusive of other cultures (and happens quite often, I think the Gazeteer of Planetary Nomenclature is the place where to look). Being pronunceable or not is another thing.
As for other objects, well, I've named some galaxies I've spotted after fictional -or not- characters, metal bands, places, and other things but it's just for personal use and mainly the result of mind wandering while attempting to catch that faint patch of light (shit, Conservapedia has one). Panzerfaust (talk) 12:22, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewgtweg how is Chalchiuhtlicue not pronounceable? It's easier than saying strengths. What, did the lateral fricatives get you? If you think that's hard, try saying, !áú!ù'úrú ó !hámà gá !xòm gǂàqò má kàrè n!ún à. Yes Rationalwiki, I've been learning... Nǃxau ǂToma (talk) 17:55, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Chalchiuhtlicue is pronounced /tʃaːl.tʃiw.ˈtɬi.kʷe/, which isn't particularly difficult. The only sound in the word that isn't in English is the /tɬ/, which is simply 't' appended to the Welsh <ll> sound, and can be approximated for English speakers as 'tth' i.e. /tθ/. Nahuatl is one of the easiest and IMO prettiest of the Native American languages in its sound system. What throws people is the Spanish-based traditional spelling, which is to some respect an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 18:32, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Gewgtweg - you are accusing whole categories of people of deliberately allowing themselves to be victimised - and you are being discourteous/using words some people find offensive. One does not 'obey' manners (which do vary according to the context - even between RW and the other place) - and respect is earned in many ways. I am treating you civilly regardless - #that# is good manners.
As for my qualifications etc - consider (a) 'very many people' have RW-specific user-names and (b) the wide range of information I refer to here (can I bring Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft into the pronunciation discussion?). Anna Livia (talk) 23:15, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
@Smerdis It's not that the sounds cannot be found in English. The word structure "feels" too alien. English speakers are not used to pronouncing long words with two "ch"s, "tl" and "iw". Besides, people would not be sure how to pronounce this instantly. A simpler name has to be found. Consider the name "Genghis Khan". The original form had to become very twisted for Indo-European speakers to be able to pronounce it. Unless we change it into something more palatable like "chaw-chew thruck", forget it. There's a reason why foreign words change significantly when entering a new language. Why did Milano became Mailand and Venezia Venedig in Fritzian?
@AnnaLivia I am not accusing them of deliberately allowing themselves to be victimized. Nobody deliberately allows himself to be victimized. This is psychologically impossible unless one wants to commit suicide or has a sort of sick fetish.
They just aren't doing as much as they could to stop this madness. That's the reason why we are supposed to be raising awareness. It's about getting people to raise their voice more, and do it louder and clearer.
Right, I apologize for the "obey manners" and the abruptness of it all. I welcome your criticism but please focus on criticizing what I say more than the supposed character of the person that is saying it. Saying bad or negative things doesn't make you a bad or negative person and saying good or positive things doesn't make you a good or positive person. If that was the case all televangelists would be morally perfect angels which we know them not to be.
Such lexical railroads are meant as jokes or to highlight the morphological features of a language. They are not used in a serious official or practical context. This example too was meant as a joke. If we break the word up, Donau (Danube), Dampfschiffahrt (steam shipping), Elektrizitäten-Hauptbetriebswerkbau (electric servicing main terminal building), Unterbeamtengesellschaft (subordinates association), I think an English speaker could pronounce it comfortably even though it would still sound funny in the ears of a native. "Chalchiuhtlicue" cannot be pronounced as comfortably. Gewgtweg (talk) 00:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
This post was originally about San' names, not Aztec ones. Khoisan names are normally one to two syllables long, shouldn't be a problem. Just replace the clicks with other sounds if it bothers you so much. Would !xòm be so hard? Mí má kȍhà hńg gǀȕì ō ǁȁhìn-ā ō hȁ ō gǀè gù ǀxūúnnu. (talk) 01:36, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Can [4]/[5]/[6] be included.
And, Gewgtweg - one can take some responsibility to minimise risks and problems (obvious scam emails, flashing bling in a poor neighbourhood...) but not be able to do anything with an insidious and growing threat/a system which is biased against one etc - and could anyone in the Twin Towers buildings have done anything to stop the situation? Bear in mind that text, especially when read in multiple contexts (different countries, cultures etc) may well be read in different ways and 'who says it' may well affect how the text is interpreted. Anna Livia (talk) 16:58, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
@Bob Sure but there's two problems. Eventually the parade of gods has to end. The second is that in quite a few cases we won't be sure how it's pronounced. We have to contend with a legacy of insufficient spelling reforms in English.
@Anna Indeed there's nothing someone in the Twin Towers could have done. But could American policy have prevented Islamic terrorism from appearing in the first place? Now that's a more complex question.
These are often names of places originally settled or inhabited by non-speaking immigrants/natives and written in either a way their own languages would spell or in a way some official believed approximates the pronunciation. In cases where the words are of English origin the cause of this inconvenience is insufficient spelling reforms for which prejudiced literati and linguists are responsible. Borrowing Gods from foreign cultures would bring about similar problems. It's not that I'm entirely against it but it has its setbacks.
It's absolutely true that what is read can be interpreted differently by different people and that the identity or presumed motives of who says it can be decisive about whether people choose to believe it or not. Still, effort should be made to refute someone's ideas and claims rather than make assumptions about their character or motives. Those assumptions might very well be true but it's just etiquette that we avoid it as it helps keep things civil. When an internet discussion degenerates to an invective-hurling contest it's because one of the two parties called the other a name and the other party wasn't able to resist the temptation to retaliate. Gewgtweg (talk) 18:33, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

## I wander off, I wander back again...

Greetings and hello to all those that remember me. And to all those that don't. Somebody get me a seriously large piña colada, it's been a deeply shitty year for dealing with TERFs in the UK, and with the deadline for the Consultation to changes to the Gender Recognition Act coming up (5 days and counting) TERFs have only accelerated their attack on the UK trans community. Hoping they'll shut up a bit after the close of the consultation because for a group that claims to be constantly silenced they're awfully noisy on all the mainstream media platforms. And yes, plenty of ice in that piña colada thanks. So, how's everyone been?-- Spirit of the Cherry Blossom 16:52, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I am becoming increasingly cynical regarding human beings and the future of life on Earth. Otherwise I am somewhat well. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:18, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I've had some fundies jump all over me on YouTube, one of whom thinks I'm Muslim. Mí má kȍhà hńg gǀȕì ō ǁȁhìn-ā ō hȁ ō gǀè gù ǀxūúnnu. (talk) 18:03, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
GC, I need a shirt and/or sticker that says that. I am growing ever more concerned about our failure to make any serious effort to combat global warming. Samstr (talk) 02:30, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
There are several custom T-shirt companies who can likely make such a shirt, even in less than bulk. Alternatively you could try to give them out to promote awareness of climate change, and its repercussions. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:53, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
I might actually do that. Samstr (talk) 23:18, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah. Recent stuff in NA and the UK does lend itself to maybe burning the whole creaking edifice of power down and maybe starting again.-- Spirit of the Cherry Blossom 18:48, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I just want the Republicans out of my life. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:19, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Well, TERFs seem very active in the UK, so, sorry about that. It makes me happy to be Swedish, where even the far-right party is pretty pro-transgender rights. What IS it with the UK and TERFs anyway? Dendlai (talk) 01:02, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
US fundies really didn't like losing the fight for DOMA, SSM, and bathroom laws, so they've funded TERF groups in the UK in yet another attempt at a wedge-strategy. To the point that UK TERFs started campaigning against the repeal of the Irish 8th Amendment, and campaigning against a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. Thankfully US Fundies aren't known for their patience, especially as they're working with groups that they secretly despise (women who aren't subservient to them — well, yet), and given TERF lack of actual progress (like the empty vessel, all they've done so far is make a lot of noise and really piss off the LGBTQ+ community over here), it wouldn't surprise me if UK TERF groups suddenly find themselves without any funding or backing.-- Spirit of the Cherry Blossom 13:35, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
I can understand why US Fundies would be on board with the TE part, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how they support the RF part. I suppose it is "the enemy of my enemy" thinking more than anything. Samstr (talk) 01:05, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Well, most of the RFs aren't actually feminists, let alone radical. It's telling that this is a group of "feminists" that campaigned against allowing abortion, because the Yes campaign used trans-inclusive language, and are actually starting to campaign to repeal Equality Act protections in the UK, despite the fact that they know that the first thing to go would be sex discrimination protections, as well as maternity leave, pay, and discrimination protections. If I had to list them as anything, it would be modern-day blackshirts, which is why the fundies find it so easy to work with them.-- Spirit of the Cherry Blossom 22:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I didn't know that, but I suppose that isn't really surprising. Do these groups actually identify themselves as TERFs or is that just a label given to transphobic groups? Samstr (talk) 23:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

## The first rule of terrorism is...

That it always backfires. In other words, public opinion will always be swayed towards the opposite of what your apparent motive was. 9/11 didn't make America repent and accept Islam, it made it Islamophobic. Similarly, if you're a Christian fundamentalist who hates atheists, don't kill Richard Dawkins. Attack Liberty University and kill Jerry Falwell Jr while pretending to be an atheist. Angry at the Republicans winning the 2016 elections? Shoot Bernie Sanders, not Steve Scalise.

How do terrorists not see this? How do they not realize that their actions always promote the opposite of their beliefs? --TeslaK20 (talk) 09:27, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Many terrorist attacks are shows of power, and the intended targets extend beyond the victim of the attack itself. 9/11 didn't bring about the fall of the US, but it showed other states and entities in the Middle East that the Taliban had that capability. Ultimately, the military responded it provoked played right into their propaganda demonizing the West. 173.71.123.144 (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Ah, no. That's not what the research says, my friend. Consider pathway #10 here. It polarizes, with the majority usually having the backfire you describe, but a smallish(measured in single digit percentage) minority who find similar levels of ideological opposition to the target, they find solace in allies "willing to do what's needed". This swells the cause of the relatively extreme terrorist group, compared to status quo, where they were ignored. That their enemies and neutral parties hate them more is almost irrelevant, since their interests are usually already being ignored by potential allies. Terrorists usually get exactly the reaction they want. 90% hating you, and 1% loving you is a huge boost to groups that previously held sway with 0.01% of the population. And now for my own opinion: this is almost always made worse by the reactions to terrorism: the "no negotiating with terrorists" political doctrine and the disproportionate response military doctrine. These things provoke many paths to radicalization, and more importantly, the polarization that fuels radicalization. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Remember that time the Black Hand caused WWI by killing Franz Ferdinand, eventually succeeding in its goal of Yugoslavia? Pepperidge Farm remembers.Teurastaja (talk) 23:35, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Terrorism's real goal in America is to distract Americans from real issues like food poisoning and terrible healthcare and climate change or in 9/11's case, to force more Americans into driving rather than flying and jacking up car accident death rates and also force Americans to go into a wasteful, economically destructive war. Serious answer: your question isn't that really well thought out. Terrorism is really old. It's never their intent to rally opinion. It's to, well incite fear, hatred, and distrust for whatever reason. In some cases, like bombing abortion clinics, it's to sow discord (I mean when has that ever really killed the pro-birth movement). It can sow fear and insecurity (Quebec shootings, fueled by violent bigotry). Ikanreed presents one case, getting attention, but I need to point out more domestic cases. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 14:40, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

One goal of the Jihadists is to get the US involved in as many countries as possible, force the US to spend money needlessly on security, delegitimize the government in the eyes of the people, and basically cause the country to go bankrupt and the masses unwilling to rebuild it. This may sound far fetched as a goal, but this is basically how the USSR collapsed. CoryUsar (talk) 04:33, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

## Are time crystals real?

Kid lost in time Nerd (talk) 18:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

In other words, time crystals are a great way for traveling through time... if you happen to be one. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 21:29, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
As a physicist, let me tell you that it is not a good idea to let us try acting. Otherwise, this is a pretty good video. Samstr (talk) 01:08, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Are you sure that's not a stereotype? They made me laugh left and right. Nerd (talk) 01:07, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
It is absolutely a stereotype. I've actually had a number of professors who were quite funny. For whatever reason I generally I just don't like "cutesy" things added to otherwise informative content. I don't mind humorous remarks or jokes thrown into content, but for some reason, I cannot explain it slightly annoys me when I see scripted skits. Samstr (talk) 01:44, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

## NPC meme

Should there be an article? 82.132.224.40 (talk) 20:59, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

My guess is most of them realize how fucking retarded they look, and will find a new meme insult soon. Probably best to shove an entry in alt-right glossary ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:21, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
I hadn't heard of this particular meme, but after looking it up I have to say that I find it incredibly disturbing. It's one thing to use a generic insult against a person like "SJW" or "soy boy", but quite another to use terminology that dehumanizes people and implies a lack of personal agency. Samstr (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I have to say I hadn't heard of this meme either, but I looked it up and found it quite amusing. Given how SJW's waste no time in calling anyone who opposes them bigots/homophobes/racists/islamophobes /sexists/Nazis and so on, being called an NPC is pretty mild. --RWRW (talk) 01:20, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I find it quite amusing your unironic use of "SJW" that usually tells me more about you than it does to the random people you decide to affix a meaningless perojative label to. People who use such meaningless generalizations to denigrate whatever the hell they are thinking about loses credibility and it just looks, frankly, pathetic on their part. By the way, there are opposers of "SJW" folk that do the same thing, like complaining about white genocide or anti white racism or that media hates men or when identity politics isn't about them. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 14:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes, okay, you maybe are too stupid to realize how retarded it makes you look. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:42, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Its ok. I'm sure the SJW's can retreat to their safe spaces if the meanie conservatives say something they don't agree with. --RWRW (talk) 14:58, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
"Its ok. I'm sure the SJW's can retreat to their safe spaces if the meanie conservatives say something they don't agree with." Right, because right wingers have never over-reacted over anything ever. Sure. Who wants to buy the Golden Gate bridge? I know a Nigerian prince named Smith who can sell it to you pretty cheap. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:02, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Yep, that was sure a series of words in an order you said. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:14, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Exactly. — Saj 21:37, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

## DO we make ourselves feel things?

I'm saying that in regards to emotions. Part of it is from what Buddhists call the wisdom of emptiness, in that nothing has any inherent essence to it. So when we experience emotions is it right to say that we make ourselves feel that way? If that is the case then can it also be said that we can make ourselves feel happy or sad, that we aren't passive recipients of emotions but active shapers?Machina (talk) 22:06, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

This Buddhist idea sounds suspiciously similar to the Christian idea that "all humans are born sinful and wicked and must rely on divine grace to save them" which translated into layman's terms amounts to "you suck, drink our koolaid and you'll be awesome." ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:23, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
But the argument holds merit. I mean if something was inherently good then everyone would think so right? Same thing with any other qualities that we project onto the world around us. If two people react differently to something then it's not the object but themselves who create those feelings. I guess what I am getting at is that the feelings that we think are out there (love, connection, hate, sadness) are really just in our heads and arent inherent to anything else. It's not "you make me feel X' but you make yourself feel that way. That sort of takes the fun out of life.Machina (talk) 23:36, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Stoicism. You're describing stoicism. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:17, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

## Death of Western Civilization

Death isn't the right word, more like change. Why do fundies make such a big deal out of this, every culture changes sooner or later. They point to biblical prophesy and continue to equate the death of WC with the end of the world. WC aided in putting to death other cultures and religions from every continent, why is that not an apocalypse? Mí má kȍhà hńg gǀȕì ō ǁȁhìn-ā ō hȁ ō gǀè gù ǀxūúnnu. (talk) 23:44, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Fundies try to take advantage of the paranoia in all of us with their various apocalyptic themes. Unfortunately many people appear to be highly paranoid, and they suck in all the fundie bullshit as truth. Cosmikdebris (talk) 23:57, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
I find it completely unethical to take advantage of children and people with clinical paranoia to push an agenda. Dear ole sperm donor managed to make me and my siblings fear Y2k. I was only 4 years old at the time and my second oldest brother was 6 years old at the time. My second oldest brother is mentally challenged as it is. That is one reason fundies piss me off is because they take advantage of the disabled and children. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 21:14, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
You must think on a Fundie perspective, where the only people who count are them and those who are real, true Christians™. Everyone else are either heretic heathens or insane non-believers (or just the first thing) who after the disasters caused by the Rapture (car and plane crashes, etc. Of course little, if anything, of that would happen in those heathen, heretic, countries and better not to touch the ethics of, say, snatching the crew of an airliner, just for the passengers to die an horrible death). will face the worst times of human history (or maybe those beamed up will just be brainwashed to worship the Lamb forever and ever, ever and everyone else will finally get rid of them).Panzerfaust (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

By time America falls, we will most likely be long dead. Living your life in fear would be dull and boring. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 22:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

You guys are reading things into it that aren't there. Western Civilization began with the buttfuckers of Greece, who died out cause they were more interested in buttfucking than reproducing. Then came the Thousand Year Reich or Millennial Kingdom of Rome, which spent half that time feeding Christians to lions. Equating Christianity to Western Civilization is a false premise.
I'd guess Christians just aren't ready to pray to Mecca five times a day or come back re-incarnated as a cock roach or Napoleon or something. RobSmithi demand a recount 02:49, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Let's just say that Christianity owes a big deal to Greek ideas and can be said and a mix of Judaism of that, that most of the deaths of the early Christians were not due to Roman prosecution but infighting between their many sects, and that most Fundies see Christianity = Western civilization even if the latter drinks not only from that but also stil more from Greece, Rome, and still more. Try better Panzerfaust (talk) 07:31, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Obviously you mean gay people. Now, what does being gay have to do with this discussion? Seriously, what in holy he'll does being gay have to do with ANYTHING? 😩😩 --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 01:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

## Naturopathic Medicine- What are your thoughts?

I have my personal opinions but I want others thoughts. --Rationalzombie94 (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Uh, did you actually read the naturopathy page? Everything and the kitchen sink has been thrown into naturopathy at one time or another. Which naturopathic medicine are you referring to? Imprecise doses of radiation for treatment of TB? Sitz-baths for whooping cough? Bongolian (talk) 03:03, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
Everything about it is more duck slime and Poison Mushrooms than medicine and anyone who hawks it is hurting people and anyone who tries it is self-harm. Naturopathy should banned or at least subject to strict regulations. Homeopathy is a strong part of naturopathy's foundation. Anyone who identifies as an ND is Not a Doctor and is also hurting people regardless of the honesty and good-will of these "doctors". --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:10, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I too wish to interrogate this wiki's net opinion, on such ambiguous things as creationism, do people here mostly like creationism, I bet we do. And 9/11 truth, this is a pro truther place, for the most part, right? Fundamentalist religious control of national governments? These are hard questions.
No really. I don't know what you expect to see besides 1000 editors tell you it's a scam that robs people and, when done in lieu of real medicine, kills them. Indistinguishable from homeopathy except that 1 out of 1,000,000 times tea brewed from tree bark really does have aspirin in it. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:17, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
I love naturopathy and fully embrace its natural remedie's to ilnesse's. Xmus Jaxon Flaxon-Waxon (talk) 21:37, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

## The deficit and debt hysteria BS and the interests behind it

https://www.thenation.com/article/defense-deficits/— Unsigned, by: Gewgtweg / talk / contribs

Deficits aren't good per se, there's a big faction of new left thought that wants to abandon taxation and move to "Modern Monetary Theory" of printing money and inflating instead of taxing and printing money to facilitate market needs separately. Those people miss some pretty big problems like currency collapse from even small mismanagement and corruption. But honestly, taxes anywhere close to maintaining wealth homeostasis would not only destroy the deficit, it'd fix a lot of social issues on the backside. That's a huge discussion.
Monetary policy itself aside, it's no coincidence that republicans are ramping up "let's fix the deficit" talk before an election they're likely to lose. Crippling the democrats with fixing problems they cause is their primary electoral strategy. I can't think of an election they've won recently where their central conceit wasn't "Look at this thing we purposefully destroyed, why won't the democrats fix it" ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:45, 17 October 2018 (UTC)