Talk:Electric Universe
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[edit] How to classify
Is this bullshit, pseudoscience or protoscience. It seems to me that this guy is an expert in electricity and magnetism and has decided that applies to everything, despite the fact that gravity adequately explains such things as blackholes. - π 05:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- I would consider this a viable line of investigation, but the guy is a engineer who runs a manufacturing business. The maths he puts forward is beyond me. The statement he makes "space is full of charged particles (plasma) should be easy to verify or disprove. Hamster (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- An engineer handing out his theories on cosmology, sounds like an extension of the Salem Hypothesis. - π 06:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- first look says Nutjob, there is some plasma research being done at legitamate universities and NASA. I would class it as psuedoscience now and maybe put in a statement about mainstream research . Hamster (talk) 06:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- Although space is full of some kind of energy (just woke up, details blurry), it's not plasma, which is the fourth state of matter - too much mass there to not have been noticed a long time ago. This might not be a well-researched theory, but then again might not be total BS either. I'll give it a chew tonight, if I remember. Totnesmartin (talk) 08:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- (one chew later) Oh God, what a mess. This bloke is a "candidate" of the Hungarian academy of Science (ie they didn't get in), has nothing on the academic websites, and according to his publisher, is in with this lot - that page has a streak of Galileo gambit six inches thick all the way through... anyway, tag as pseudoscience. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- Bit late to the party, but: In Eastern and Central Europe, the title "candidate" in an academic context is equivalent to a PhD. Hydrogen and Time (talk) 11:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's "wp:candidate of science". He styles himself a "candidate of the Hungarian academy of Science", which at least to me implies being a candidate for a member of the Academy. According to their website, there are "Full Members, Corresponding Members, or Doctors of MTA", and another page explains that "MTA's membership is comprised of full, corresponding, external, and honorary members". I couldn't find Körtvélyessy in the online member search engine (a search for "ssy" returns five people - he's not one of them).--ZooGuard (talk) 13:51, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Bit late to the party, but: In Eastern and Central Europe, the title "candidate" in an academic context is equivalent to a PhD. Hydrogen and Time (talk) 11:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- (one chew later) Oh God, what a mess. This bloke is a "candidate" of the Hungarian academy of Science (ie they didn't get in), has nothing on the academic websites, and according to his publisher, is in with this lot - that page has a streak of Galileo gambit six inches thick all the way through... anyway, tag as pseudoscience. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- Although space is full of some kind of energy (just woke up, details blurry), it's not plasma, which is the fourth state of matter - too much mass there to not have been noticed a long time ago. This might not be a well-researched theory, but then again might not be total BS either. I'll give it a chew tonight, if I remember. Totnesmartin (talk) 08:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- first look says Nutjob, there is some plasma research being done at legitamate universities and NASA. I would class it as psuedoscience now and maybe put in a statement about mainstream research . Hamster (talk) 06:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- An engineer handing out his theories on cosmology, sounds like an extension of the Salem Hypothesis. - π 06:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
[edit] a bit of investigation
"Space is full of charged particles" is true. Most matter in most space is plasma, all right, but the density of the plasma is way-silly low. I saw this statement here, The naked electric force is 39 orders of magnitude (a thousand billion billion billion billion times) stronger than gravity. The visible universe is constituted almost entirely of electrically active plasma.
It's an example of how to mislead with the truth, or with incomplete statements of the truth. Unstated in the claim about the "naked electric force" is the distance involved. It's very obvious that the electric force, at short distances, is far more powerful than gravity. After all, you can pick things up with static electricity, and even heavier things with magnets, completely overcoming gravity, but only at short range. Increase the distance only a little, and the static or magnetic field force will disappear (inverse square law). So at interplanetary and stellar distances? "Currents" require charge carriers, and a current would be limited by the availability of charge carriers, so, out of the box, the Electric Universe concepts seem totally preposterous. If, somewhere, this objection is answered, let's say that they haven't made it obvious. The arguments presented seem designed to convince only those who don't know bleep about physics.
Note that the existence of very-high-voltage-static charge differences between objects in space is not impossible, at all. They would be a consequence of, in fact, the ultrahigh resistance of mostly-empty space, so that no means is available to equalize charge imbalance, so it can build up and persist. That same high resistance makes the high currents proposed to operate over vast distances impossible. In order to induce some arcing, in the absence of charge carriers, there would need to be high voltage gradients available at the target matter, to strip charge carriers and accelerate them, forming a "discharge" that creates its own carriers in the intervening space, but the voltage gradient from a remote charge is vanishingly low, not even measurable at substantial distances far, far less than interplanetary. I'm not seeing any explanations of the Electric Universe that explain the subject for anyone reasonably knowledgeable. What did Hannes Alfven propose? Nothing in his Wikipedia article looks like woo. There are currents in the plasma of space, but what is nutso about the Electric Universe theories is that they are proposed to be large enough to produce, say, at the surface of the earth, an arc that would "cut" the Grand Canyon. --Abd (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Hannes Alfven
I missed something. Alfven proposed a cosmological model. Such a proposal is not pseudoscience in itself. Alternate models are part of the process of science. Alfven's model seems to have been rejected. If it was mistaken, that doesn't make it pseudoscience, and if the rejection was based on failed predictions of the model, it obviously was falsifiable. However, the Electric Universe people seem to be using Alfven far outside of his realm. --Abd (talk) 20:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Moderator Possesses Creationist Bias Against Electric Universe
- This discussion was moved here from RationalWiki:Chicken coop.
Mikalos209 rejected the following update to the wiki regarding Electric Universe: You were blocked by Mikalos209. The reason given for your block is Boring repetitive reversions to established articles. We don't care apologize for any inconvenience caused. If you believe the block was too long or unjustified, then please try contacting Mikalos209 or another administrator. You will usually still be able to edit your user talk page and contact other editors by e-mail. You cannot use the "email this user" feature unless a valid email address is specified in your account preferences. Your current IP address is 66.214.96.162, and the block ID is #48229.
The "Electric Universe" (EU) is an umbrella term that covers various modern cosmological ideas built around the discovery that the formation and existence of various features of the universe can be better explained by electric currents and magnetic fields than by gravity. The exact claims are diverse and vary from author to author. A common motif is the insistence that all science should be subject to experimentation in a laboratory. Most Electric Universe proponents claim consistency to the "Plasma Cosmology" of the Nobel Prize laureate Hannes Alfvén, as well as support for Dr. Anthony Peratt, and Dr. Eric Lerner.
- EU advocates point to the work done by U.N. IAEA Director Dr. Ari Brynjolfsson as providing the legitimate Scientific explanation of the Red Shift phenomenon as opposed to that proposed by Big Bang Creationism, Catholic Monk Georges Lemaitre and rejected by Einstein & Hubble.
- EU advocates believe any theory regarding the Red Shift phenomenon must be consistent with the Quasar discoveries of Astronomer Halton C. Arp.
- EU advocates also promote awareness of the failures and inconsistencies in claims by Big Bang Creationists highlighted by the World Renowned Dr. Pierre-Marie Robitaille who uncovered a variety of flaws in the COBE & WMAP data. 1, 2
===Claims===
- [Some] craters on Venus, Mars and the Moon are not only caused by impacts, but by electrical discharges.[1] The same may apply to the Valles Marineris (a massive canyon on Mars) and the Grand Canyon on Earth.
- The Lightning Scarred Planet Mars
===External links===
- Universe: Cosmology Quest (video)
- The Big Bang Never Happened by Dr. Eric Lerner Ph.D
- Dr. Halton C. Arp Official Website
- Plasma Redshift by Dr. Ari Brynjolfsson Ph.D
- Plasma Cosmology - Dr. Anthony Peratt Ph.D Los Alamos National Laboratory
- Featured on Coast to Coast AM Radio
- The Surface of the Sun
===Supporters===
- thunderbolts.info, the most popular EU advocate website
- Electric Cosmos (by "Donald E. Scott, Ph.D. (Electrical Engineering)")
- Thunderbolts of the Gods (video)
- The Electric Universe, László Körtvélyessy's website
- Plasma Cosmology
===Footnotes===
[edit] Proposed changes
In a private message the moderator expressed his displeasure of the phrase "Big Bang Creationism" & "Big Bang Creationists"
This seems to ignore the fact that the Big Bang Theory is an off-spring of Old Earth Creationism first advocated by Creationists such as Georges Lemaitre and was classified by sites like talk.origins and infidels.org as an Old Earth Creationist Theory.— Unsigned, by: Orrery / talk / contribs
- Mikalos is not a moderator. Like most other users of the wiki, he has sysop rights allowing him to block users, but this is not a special position. If you hang around and don't make trouble, you'll also get sysop rights.
- There are no private messages. Messages left on your user talk page, like on every other talk page, are public for all to see.
- Your proposed "improvements" contain a number of untruths and misinterpretations. At the very least, Brynjolfsson's "plasma redshift", Robitaille and Arp don't have much to do with the Electric Universe except proposing alternatives to the Big Bang. According to his own CV, Brynjolfsson was a director of the "International Facility for Food Irradiation Technology" (IFFIT), not the IAEA. Etc., etc. Some of the new external links are on-topic, though.--ZooGuard (talk) 06:49, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Objections from "Wally Hope"
All the while this 'discussion' is going on, on a secondary page to the subject, people are given a biased view of a legitimate theory that is based on better, more proveable science than gravity. E.U. theories when applied to NASA experiments provide better predictions of results than NASA's own predictions. It is not pseudoscience until proven wrong. This wiki is obviously run from a self refreshing database, which reverts to the original after 2 minutes, whilst giving the impression that it is editable. I have now 3 times attempted to remove all the belittling comments from the main E.U. page here and leave a balanced impartial opinion on the E.U. theory so that people can investigate further and make up their own mind. The only bullshit here is the moderation on the main page, it says to me that someone has an agenda. Oh sorry, do I need a citation for this? — Unsigned, by: Wally Hope / talk / contribs
- All content moderation on RationalWiki is done by humans; there is no "self refreshing database" with the power to magically identify divergence from consensus. Your edits are being rolled back because you're trying to make major changes to the tone and meaning of the article without first discussing them with the community. Hydrogen and Time (talk) 15:34, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
As I said, the portrayal of E.U. is belittling and all I did was remove the unfair bias. — Unsigned, by: Wally Hope / talk / contribs
- If you want us to remove the "unfair bias" you will need to demonstrate why we should do so. Yes, a citation would help as a starting point. On the other hand, simple assertions are not sufficient. Just because you believe it doesn't mean it's so. Innocent Bystander (talk) 15:50, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Wally you might want to check out the Alternative cosmology article. Theres no point in claiming there is an agenda, the electric universe is pseudoscience, there is no debate about this in the scientific community, that is just the way it is. Plasma cosmology is not pseudoscience, but is a minority view in the scientific community, if you want to expand the plasma cosmology section on the alternative cosmology then feel free. Forests (talk) 15:51, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Implications on Earth?
Would living in an 'Electric Universe' have implications for people while living on Earth? It seems like it would have serious consequences for Earthlings that could be easily verified.-- Token Conservative Feminist Thought Police 19:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Material from Stuart Robbins
[2] - David Gerard (talk) 15:30, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- That's more relevant to the James McCanney article, though he needs to be included in this one.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Ralph E. Juergens
Articles written by Ralph E. Juergens outlining the sun as a tufted anode, with an explanation of current required and how a local star fits into the galactic scheme, noting where current densities are, and where the voltage drop off occurs. (As is required) Just thought I would add fuel to the remarkable incredulity in this wiki. His book is probably lost to posterity.
There is some curiosity that electrical engineers, who venture into the astronomy field might have an explanation that does not depend on anthropocetric and weaponized notions, but a notion of the very thing they have dealt with every day can be measured in the regions accessible only by space probes, long after thermonuclear bombs were first made. Relativity brought us a spectacularily dangerous toy, which mesmerizes us, while the real work goes on.
Charge density may be vanishingly small in low density plasma, but over vast distances the accumulated charges and differentials can be larger than anyone had first imagined.
http://www.kronos-press.com/juergens/index.htm — Unsigned, by: FranSix / talk / contribs 22:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)