Talk:Horseshoe theory/Archive1
Let me guess - this was written by a left-winger butthurt over being lumped with the skinheads. :D --ZooGuard (talk) 16:46, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
- Huh. I was always told this was the "Dark Mirror". Nobodydon't bother 17:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
- To me it looks like the article right now is a rather elaborate no true Scotsman. It is true that "the lefties are just like the Nazis" is a stupid idea, but it can be argued better, without trying to claim that communism as practiced by the Soviet Union is "not really left-wing". --Tweenk (talk) 00:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- Who the fuck wrote this shit? It's a giant fucking ad hom and no true Scotsman.--Just relax, and stay funny (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- So I'm guessing that this article has done a complete 180 from how it was originally, then. Does that mean we need a different article to refute the wingnut claim that fascism is left-wing, then, or do we already have that? --Brendan Rizzo 12:37, 19 January 2013
- To me it looks like the article right now is a rather elaborate no true Scotsman. It is true that "the lefties are just like the Nazis" is a stupid idea, but it can be argued better, without trying to claim that communism as practiced by the Soviet Union is "not really left-wing". --Tweenk (talk) 00:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Could be worth pointing out that DPRK (North Korea) actually have removed the part about being communistic in the constitution. They are now "only" a dictatorship with no specified political left/right affiliation.
Their main trade partner is still China, so it's most likely someplace left, but at least they are no longer communist (in name). This might be because in communism, people are supposed to.. you know.. be equal, and this wouldn't suit the Kim's. — Unsigned, by: Homsefar / talk / contribs 08:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
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[edit] GOP and Commies
I'm simply amazed at the number of similarities I keep finding between the GOP and Communist Party of the Russian Federation. Seriously, at first I was worried I was violating the association fallacy but there's so many similarities it's impossible to ignore. When I was reading one the Neo-Stalinist rags online (the official website of the CPRF no less) it sounded exactly like WND when they weren't talking about economics. Conspiracy theories, "traditional values", "MAKE (BLANK) RESIGN FROM OFFICE"!, etc. It's ironic they hate each other so much. If someone could add more to that section (sources especially) that would be great thanks. ClothCoat (talk) 22:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- Social conservatism is a trend on the far-left as it is on the right, it's not particularly shocking. Osaka Sun (talk) 23:02, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeh I guess so but even the overdramatic rhetoric was similar. It's just kind of funny is all. I guess they're both basically RWA's so it really isn't all that surprising after all. Though the social conservatism mainly applies to the fringe authoritarians, commie anarchists and a lot of right-wing libertarians/anarcho-capitalists aren't as consistently big on it. ClothCoat (talk) 23:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
[edit] No True Communist
I don't think it's strictly accurate to say that claiming that China or the USSR weren't communist is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy any more than it is to say that the DPRK isn't democratic or a republic. 75.118.51.238 (talk) 00:02, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- But they were far left communists. A saner argument is that they weren't "Marxists" but every time Marx's dream tries to be enacted it ends with mass starvation. Sorry buddy. ClothCoat (talk) 04:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
"Communism" is a strictly defined term, and I don't think it's correct to invoke "no true scotsman" when someone points out that an example (such as the USSR or PRC) doesn't fit the definition. There's probably no arguing against the idea that Stalin, Lenin etc were ideologically communists, but no matter what their intentions were the USSR as a country just never fit the systemic definition of communism. (or even socialism) It doesn't matter what these countries called themselves, the proper thing to do is ignore rhetoric and examine the actual features of their system. There's about as much worker control in my trouser pocket right now as there was in the mid-late USSR. If a "true scotsman" had a clear definition, it would not be fallacious to point out that something doesn't fit it. A true scotsman (talk) 22:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Origin of the term left-wing
While no doubt an interesting historical footnote, I'm not sure it's very effective in countering the criticism presented, i.e. Another variant of the same argument is that the term "left-wing" refers to philosophies that promote broader democracy, political participation, and social equality, and that any form of government straying from this ideal is automatically right-wing instead.
I don't see how the historical origin of the term is relevant to the criticism it purports to address. If "everyone" agrees what a particular term means now, then that's what it means, right? Does anyone actually use the term to refer to relative seating positions any more, especially the people who present the mentioned criticism of the Horseshoe Theory?
The fact that people's positions on the economic continuum (free market vs. planned economy) and the social continuum (liberalism vs. conservatism) aren't necessarily correlated is, I think, not strongly disputed -- hence the popularity of the quadrant system which places economic and social views on different axis. The Horseshoe Theory does make clear the trend towards authoritarianism for anyone with very strong views on how things "ought to be", since generally speaking the only way you're going to get a large population to do what you want is to force them to do it (for their own good, of course). However, this perspective seems to agree with the criticism.
I kind of feel like this response is basically saying "sure, but lots of people who claim to be left-wing/liberal/tolerant actually aren't", which is perfectly valid but doesn't seem like it really supports the theory.
--Editor374 (talk) 05:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Neo-Stalinists and evolution
I know that I read somewhere that the neo-Stalinists in Russia are hostile to Darwinian evolution but can anyone confirm this for sure? I want the comparisons between the Communist party of the Russian federation and GOP to be as accurate as possible. Thank you. ClothCoat (talk) 20:32, 21 November 2013 (UTC)