Talk:Privilege
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[edit] Privilege For All
I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to point out at the end of the article that privilege as thusly explained is actually a good thing. (To be taken seriously, not be discriminated against, not having to disprove stereotypes, etc.) Much of the criticism against notions of "check your privilege" comes from people seeing "their" privilege and therefore themselves under attack, when in fact that notion simply asks of people to empathise with another perspective, which is hardly a bad thing and mostly an effortless endeavour. Bismarck (talk) 16:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we need to point out at the end stuff that's already stated in the first line & explained throughout? ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:33, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Isn't this article on "privilege"...
...the sort of thing that we usually make fun of on this site. It appears to be meaningless woo.
I thought we were against woo. --Horace (talk) 09:58, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- According to our page on woo:
- "Woo generally contains most of the following characteristics:
- A simple idea that purports to be the one answer to many problems (often including diseases)
- A "scientific-sounding" reason for how it works, but little to no actual science behind it; for example, quote mines of studies that if bent enough could be described in such a way to support it, outright misapplication of studies, or words that sound scientific but make no sense in the context they are used in
- It involves the supernatural and paranormal (not necessarily)
- A claim of persecution, usually perpetrated by the government or the pharmaceutical, medical, or scientific community
- An invocation of a scientific authority
- Prefers to use abundant testimonials over actual scientific research
- A claim that scientists are blind to the discovery, despite attempts to alert them
- A disdain for objective, randomized experimental controls, especially double-blind testing (which are kind of what makes epidemiology actually, y'know, work)
- And, usually, an offer to share the knowledge for a price."
- So, no, it's absolutely nothing like woo. It is a sociological concept that has nothing to do with natural science, and nobody's trying to make a quick buck off of it.
- If there is something in particular about the concept you find suspicious, perhaps you should elaborate. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 10:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Very well, I'm not sure if suspicious is the right word but I am happy to attempt to elaborate.
- I think the heart of the problem is that the article takes a word that has a perfectly well known definition and attempts to make a concept out of it that appears to add no value to the word that we already know.
- The fact that some people are privileged compared to others is not a revelation. The fact that some (or even many) of those privileged people don't recognize their privileged position compared to others is not a revelation. In fact neither concept is in any way surprising or even interesting.
- If we are going to have articles on such banalities then what's next? An article on the fact that rich people have more money than poor people or an article on how fat people weigh more than thin people?
- The central problem here is that the concept is hollow and of little value. My apologies if that doesn't fit the definition of woo. I should be more precise. --Horace (talk) 11:01, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Privilege is a prominent enough concept on its own (existing separately from its more widely known meaning, I mean!) for us to talk about. It's used a lot in the context of social justice. Wikipedia's own article on it ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(social_inequality) ) seems to be surprisingly lacking compared to ours. That's a first... Some of our article's authors should totally go over there and polish that thing up! Nullahnung (talk) 11:09, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's not hollow or of little value. This is very very tangible stuff. The fact that controlled studies show how ethnic minorities with criminal records get fewer job offers than counterparts with identical CVs and criminal records demonstrates it. The fact that a woman can be raped but the male perpetrator is the one that is sympathised with demonstrates it. The fact you can go through life as a male and female married couple and never get jeered at and never have to actually fight or protest for the right to do so demonstrates it. This is not hollow, this is very real and very significant for people to learn and get into their heads.
pathetic 13:18, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- "The fact that some people are privileged compared to others is not a revelation." True, but unfortunately not as widely accepted as it ought to be. Because, by gum, if you just try hard enough and pull yourself up by your bootstraps, anything is possible. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:27, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- The concept of 'privilege' as set forth in the article is a "simple idea that purports to be the one answer to many problems", inherently invokes a claim of persecution, relies heavily on anecdotal evidence and testimonials, and necessarily includes and strongly features the idea that most people are "blind to the discovery, despite attempts to alert them". It is also particularly annoying passive-aggressive cant, signals the end of productive discussion, and is the excuse you were looking for to stop caring. I still think it's the sort of thing that wants debunking rather than endorsement. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Smerdis, you are literally the only person I have ever heard interpret privilege this way. It's not supposed to make people stop caring, it's supposed to make them stop talking about things that they don't understand that they don't understand. (Doubling intentional, not a typo.) Also, it's not an answer to a problem, it's a new name for an existing problem. We're still working on the solution. Also, "anecdotal evidence and testimonials" generally don't get published in sociological journals.
- The concept of 'privilege' as set forth in the article is a "simple idea that purports to be the one answer to many problems", inherently invokes a claim of persecution, relies heavily on anecdotal evidence and testimonials, and necessarily includes and strongly features the idea that most people are "blind to the discovery, despite attempts to alert them". It is also particularly annoying passive-aggressive cant, signals the end of productive discussion, and is the excuse you were looking for to stop caring. I still think it's the sort of thing that wants debunking rather than endorsement. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- "The fact that some people are privileged compared to others is not a revelation." True, but unfortunately not as widely accepted as it ought to be. Because, by gum, if you just try hard enough and pull yourself up by your bootstraps, anything is possible. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 15:27, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- The central problem here is that the concept is hollow and of little value. My apologies if that doesn't fit the definition of woo. I should be more precise. --Horace (talk) 11:01, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Lastly, the line on "blindness" (I thank you for not bringing up the "ableism" thing again) is a remarkable equivocation. With the actual definition of "woo," the line was about scientists being blind to the discovery--as in, "the people who actually know what they're talking about won't listen to us, waaaah!" Privilege, by contrast, is an idea expounded by professional sociologists. The only people who are "blind" to the idea of privilege are people who don't want to examine their privilege, because when you've got life easier than others, it feels better believing that it's because you're awesome rather than because the deck is stacked in your favor. This is the equivalent of scientists in the field producing and testing a hypothesis that some laypeople happen to dislike for political, personal, or moral reasons.
- I stand by what I said above, which (if I may hope to express myself more clearly this time) is that (a) most people who get upset about privilege don't like the idea of having to consider other peoples' points of view; (b) you, Smerdis, already consider other peoples' points of view; (c) you are misinterpreting the idea that "you don't automatically understand how privileged you are" as "you can never understand how privileged you are"; and lastly (d) the main reason you're opposing it is because you feel that the misrepresentation in (c) amounts to people ignoring your professed empathy in (b). Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, and one more thing: There are some lefties out there (ordinary people, not professional sociologists) who do represent this concept poorly. (I'm looking at you, tumblr, and I even added you to our to-do list just now.) These people may indeed claim that privilege means "you can never understand how privileged you are". They are wrong. Just like how some of the loonier supporters of evolution claim it disproves God, which you and I both know is complete nonsense. It's also not what the professionals who work on these ideas actually claim. So don't let the nuts on the street trick you into thinking that all privilege is nuts. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Come on. The 'ableism' edit was precious. It also underlines the real issue: this is one of a host of ideas whose purpose is to persuade people to perceive, recognize, and concentrate on reasons to be angry with their neighbors. It's "consciousness raising"; i.e. the deliberate cultivation of grievance. My consistent opinion is, that never helps. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- The purpose of the sundry theories of "privilege" — viz., to serve as a secular analogue of original sin — is fairly transparent and often stated openly by the pinkos who concocted them. That is not, however, the "real issue," just as the fact that Galileo was using heliocentrism as a rhetorical battering ram has no bearing on whether the earth moves or not. A more relevant aspect for us is the fascinating array of ways in which the concept of "privilege" is used fallaciously.
ListenerXTalkerX 05:04, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- Peggy McIntosh[wp] was one of the first writers to address the topic of privilege head-on. Her essay "Unpacking the Knapsack of White Privilege" was an exploration of how she as a white woman experienced privilege in some ways (because she was white) and disadvantages in others (because she was a woman).
- The purpose of the sundry theories of "privilege" — viz., to serve as a secular analogue of original sin — is fairly transparent and often stated openly by the pinkos who concocted them. That is not, however, the "real issue," just as the fact that Galileo was using heliocentrism as a rhetorical battering ram has no bearing on whether the earth moves or not. A more relevant aspect for us is the fascinating array of ways in which the concept of "privilege" is used fallaciously.
- Come on. The 'ableism' edit was precious. It also underlines the real issue: this is one of a host of ideas whose purpose is to persuade people to perceive, recognize, and concentrate on reasons to be angry with their neighbors. It's "consciousness raising"; i.e. the deliberate cultivation of grievance. My consistent opinion is, that never helps. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 04:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, and one more thing: There are some lefties out there (ordinary people, not professional sociologists) who do represent this concept poorly. (I'm looking at you, tumblr, and I even added you to our to-do list just now.) These people may indeed claim that privilege means "you can never understand how privileged you are". They are wrong. Just like how some of the loonier supporters of evolution claim it disproves God, which you and I both know is complete nonsense. It's also not what the professionals who work on these ideas actually claim. So don't let the nuts on the street trick you into thinking that all privilege is nuts. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 22:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- If the point of privilege were to silence or to shame the privileged, this essay would have been grounds for silencing her, because she's white. Instead it opened the door to the very discussion of the concept. It is also worth noting that Ms. McIntosh was, and is, not a communist.
- I don't generally like to be blunt, but you are both quite wrong. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- It does not rely "heavily on anecdotal evidence and testimonials". There are actual studies showing this. The kind of study that if it was saying something you agreed with like "homoeopathy was bunk" you'd be all over as some great proof.
moral 09:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good God, Armondikov, it's even worse than I thought! Anybody who thinks "we fixed racism for good" needs to read that. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 23:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
- Also, to Smerdis, regarding a supposed "deliberate cultivation of grievance": John Scalzi, professional science fiction writer and straight white male who doesn't feel personally aggrieved every time he hears the word "privilege", wrote: "when people point out the things straight white men get on credit (or don’t have to deal with), the unspoken part of that is not “and that’s why we plan to burn all you bastards in a big screaming pile when the revolution comes,” it’s “hey, just so you know.” Because you should know. It’s not about blame, it’s about knowledge. Stop assuming it’s about blame. Paranoid and hypersensitive is no way to go through life." Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 00:09, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
- "One dude said it" is not an actual argument. --188.238.211.10 (talk) 07:11, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
- It wasn't supposed to be; I just found that he expressed what I was trying to say but couldn't. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:28, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
- And, as I mentioned above, it's echoing the same sentiment (that privilege is not an excuse for hating your neighbor but for addressing heretofore unexamined social issues) expressed by one of the first sociologists to treat the concept directly. Her analysis does carry significant weight, as do the systematic studies that Armondikov cited. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:49, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
- It strikes me that the difference between "addressing heretofore unexamined social issues" and "deliberate cultivation of grievance" strikes me as a matter of pure rhetoric or spin. And likewise, the problem with 'privilege' rhetoric is again a matter of rhetorical (in)effectiveness and (counter)productivity: rather than inviting people to find common ground to solve common problems, 'privilege' is part of a mindset that involves underlining differences, like the closely related counting coup of "intersectionality". It encourages people to tune out other viewpoints by its very nature, whether it's supposed to or not. It isn't like academics are immune to prevalent nonsense, fads or passing intellectual fashions, either. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 00:37, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- "One dude said it" is not an actual argument. --188.238.211.10 (talk) 07:11, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Did you read any of the links Armondikov and I posted? I am honestly curious. I posted a link to a formative essay on this topic that showed a sociologist not laying blame, not pointing fingers, not doing anything that you attribute to this whole movement. She spends half of the goddamn paper considering other people's viewpoints. If people are encouraged by papers like this to ignore others' viewpoints they need to actually read the damn things. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 00:56, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, seriously, a) read those studies or similar ones and b) actually read what intersectionalists have to say. That is all.
sshole 10:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- I do get the impression you're ignoring my lived experience here. Jeezus, what a snotty, passive-aggressive thing to say; but if it's all about somebody subjective experience, it may as well be about mine. Actually, I did read the links. One of them seemed to suggest a fairly strong argument in favor of approved name lists like Iceland and France (used to?) have; parents who name their kids 'B'Juan' or 'Dweezil' or other unwholesome inventions ought to bear at least some of the blame. That, at least, is a way forward, which is more than I can see from most invocations of the notion. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 17:09, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Very confusing
The article is very confusing. Even wikipedia's article seems more coherent. What on earth does the 'shut up and listen' have to do with anything? 128.214.53.244 (talk) 10:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- I think this article has content-creeped since the last time I properly looked at it. I needs a serious clean up. That whole "A mile in their shoes" section is out of place at the very least, and not excellent at explaining the core subject.
Don't click here 12:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- It's not an easy read, it rather jumps about and I'm not even sure that all (or even most) of the matter is relevant to the subject being explained. This is a field in which I claim no expertise, but even after reading the article I didn't feel particularly better informed.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 14:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- I've gone and cut everything not directly related to the main topic for now. What this page needs to be is an actual explanation. It's likely to be a landing page for the concept, and if it doesn't bother to explain it but instead jumps into a tirade taken from the Social Justice Warrior's Handbook, then it'll not perform its task very well. The page should focus on the explanation of the topic at hand, and then we can look at expansion. So, the cruft is not dead, just temporarily unconscious - do not bring it back unless it can be fit into a decent article structure.
Don't click here 15:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- "Check your privilege" or "shut up and listen" are pretty closely related to the subject at hand. No idea what the Usenet thing was about though. Wēāŝēīōīď
Methinks it is a Weasel 17:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- "Check your privilege" or "shut up and listen" are related. But they're not so related that they should be there before privilege is actually explained. In fact, related concepts being used to explain the central concept is backwards. But they need an appropriate place, probably towards the end where "related memes" can be put.
Don't click here 11:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- "Check your privilege" or "shut up and listen" are related. But they're not so related that they should be there before privilege is actually explained. In fact, related concepts being used to explain the central concept is backwards. But they need an appropriate place, probably towards the end where "related memes" can be put.
- "Check your privilege" or "shut up and listen" are pretty closely related to the subject at hand. No idea what the Usenet thing was about though. Wēāŝēīōīď
- I've gone and cut everything not directly related to the main topic for now. What this page needs to be is an actual explanation. It's likely to be a landing page for the concept, and if it doesn't bother to explain it but instead jumps into a tirade taken from the Social Justice Warrior's Handbook, then it'll not perform its task very well. The page should focus on the explanation of the topic at hand, and then we can look at expansion. So, the cruft is not dead, just temporarily unconscious - do not bring it back unless it can be fit into a decent article structure.
- It's not an easy read, it rather jumps about and I'm not even sure that all (or even most) of the matter is relevant to the subject being explained. This is a field in which I claim no expertise, but even after reading the article I didn't feel particularly better informed.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 14:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
A lot better, but seem to be written with only one perspective. There are little mentions about racial minorities or handicapped groups. Also the article seems to state that all privilege is one-way men over women. Should there be mention on the other instances? (Like prison population.)128.214.53.244 (talk) 08:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Probably needs more perspective from other issues like ethnic minorities or disabled, yes. Feel free to try if you want. Nullahnung (talk) 09:01, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- "all privilege is one-way men over women" - depends exactly what you mean by that. In the established theory, then as a group privilege is one-way. But that isn't the same as saying all instances are because privilege is qualitative (e.g., rich women will have a class/wealth privilege over poor men). But sex/gender and wealth-class privileges are what I know most about, so any edits I've made won't/can't go outside that. If someone else knows more about other forms, please add them or make appropriate edits.
Don't click here 09:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting. Could you point a book about the established theory? I'd like to read more. (And it should make reference material.) 128.214.53.244 (talk) 12:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- "all privilege is one-way men over women" - depends exactly what you mean by that. In the established theory, then as a group privilege is one-way. But that isn't the same as saying all instances are because privilege is qualitative (e.g., rich women will have a class/wealth privilege over poor men). But sex/gender and wealth-class privileges are what I know most about, so any edits I've made won't/can't go outside that. If someone else knows more about other forms, please add them or make appropriate edits.
[edit] Bullshit
"Privilege is the benefits and advantages held by a group in power, or in a majority, that arise because of the oppression and suppression of minority groups."
Sorry, privileges never belong to a majority, or else they wouldn't be privileges, duuuhh. A privilege can't belong to a minority AND majority, or else the term would explain nothing. But this is rationslwiki, a site that isn't very rational at all, and therefore you can't expect the people here to grasp simple logic.
Seriously, if you try to push your political agenda upon other people, maybe be a little more subtle. The only thing that the privilege theory wants to acomplish, is to make a minority more privileged, by regulating the behavior of a majority.
Too bad, the civil rights movement was never about that. The goal wasn't to regulate the behavior of the majority, but to rightfully gain the rights this majority was enjoying already.— Unsigned, by: 82.145.217.243 / talk / contribs 10:05, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
- So what if the concept we were referring to was called "Sheduuckkskssk"? Your point would dissolve faster than your dictionary in an acid bath. You can't just throw out an entire concept because you disagree with its wording. And yet you call RW "irrational"? You have made the most basic fallacy that it is possible to make.
Don't click here 09:00, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- In addition, I don't get what you mean by "regulating the behaviour of the majority". Could you please explain? THE GREAT RIGHTEØUS DESTRØYER I know the pieces fit, because I watched them fall away
10:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- In addition, I don't get what you mean by "regulating the behaviour of the majority". Could you please explain? THE GREAT RIGHTEØUS DESTRØYER I know the pieces fit, because I watched them fall away
The definition is not the only thing you can criticize. Obviously there are good and there are bad privileges. Earned privileges and unearned ones. So, if you want to be a part of the capitalist society, you have to earn the privilege to exploit other people - that would br an earned privilege, in comparission to an unearned one, like lets say, being born as a white male.
This concept should have no place within progressive politics. Also, people won't change their behavior after they 'checked their privileges', they will, for example, continue to reproduce heternormative behavior in the public, even if they offend certain miniorities with it. And why? Because their own happiness is more important to them than politics, and that is good. — Unsigned, by: 82.145.217.99 / talk / contribs
- Another example of an unearned privilege would be to have rich parents. This is clearly a privileged minority group. Or (historically) white people in South Africa, also an obvious privileged minority. --46.239.101.25 (talk) 09:52, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
- You seem to be confusing the conventional definition of "numerical minority" with the sociological definition of "minority group". Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group . Basically, whether a group is a minority group doesn't merely come down to population numbers, but it comes down to positions of social power affected by various characteristics such as wealth or political power. Thus it's more complicated than you think, trying to call people with rich parents or historical white people in South Africa minorities. (Also, I feel like RationalWiki needs an article on "minority", it is a confusing term to your average internet browser.) Nullahnung (talk) 13:54, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
[edit] There Can Be Only One POV
As long as any attempt to add a simple links to things like "Female Privilege Checklist", "POC Privilege Checklist", "LGBTQ Privilege Checklist" - even just to let the reader see for themselves how ridiculous the concept is! - is undone, I'll keep in mind that this Wiki is under a huge censorship that has nothing to do with rationality. Many bows, and farewell. Have your Wiki the way you like it, anyone who don't can have their own. — Unsigned, by: 94.72.62.217 / talk / contribs
- Essay:I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's pathetic that you were taught that this is an appropriate response. If you can't see how this meme and {{drink}}! reinforce an ever-narrowing groupthink and contributes to RW's already bad image among more serious people than you are, you're among those I wish would simply leave RW and go do something else. Perhaps set up an IRC channel for the other reputation and community damaging characters RW has no will to get rid of. Nutty Roux (talk) 14:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I should take a break from editing then, it's not like this is something I have to do in my free time. I'd be more willing to accept your criticism if you hadn't taken to calling other editors "creepy", "self-entitled" and "mentally ill" in a previous post. Or if these topics weren't already covered before I started editing. I don't know if you're supposed to be the "more serious person" because I have no respect for somebody who goes around calling people "mentally ill" --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Great response. Right on point. I 'was' a more serious person than you are when it comes to RW's image and future. But hey, we all have opinions. Mine is in the minority, hence I've reluctantly tendered my resignation to the RMF and am doing my best to withdraw. If RW is the RMF's only project, I wish to have nothing to do with either. RW is a mission failure and nothing has improved as far as I can tell. Perhaps I'll change my opinion. That would be nice. I'm sure, as a new editor, you've got your own perspective, just as I have mine. As for whether you'd be more willing to accept my "criticism" or not, I frankly don't care. I've expressed myself, and I'm out. I'd point out that you've failed to make any argument at all, however. My "criticism" of a bad habit, which you've repeated, has nothing to do with what I say about another editor. But just FYI, one of these editors (more really, but RW isn't keeping track) is most certainly creepy, self-entitled, and mentally ill. Count yourself lucky if he hasn't emailed you a detailed story about it. RW's insistence on embracing any and all comers is part of the reason I've lost confidence in its ability to take care of its own business. Have fun. Nutty Roux (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, to be honest, after having a pretty civil conversation with the IP editor before you posted your comment, I was feeling guilty about leaving the templated message anyway. I didn't need some overdramatic "former editor" to harass me, I can learn my own lessons. Also, I'm willing to accept criticism, absolutely, but not for somebody to claim that I am, as a relatively new editor, responsible for the projects coverage of gender studies, especially as this article has existed since 2010. I'm only engaging with you because you came here directly, I'm not particularly interested in whether you continue to edit or not, I don't even know who you are. Kudos for calling others "self-entitled" though --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Great response. Right on point. I 'was' a more serious person than you are when it comes to RW's image and future. But hey, we all have opinions. Mine is in the minority, hence I've reluctantly tendered my resignation to the RMF and am doing my best to withdraw. If RW is the RMF's only project, I wish to have nothing to do with either. RW is a mission failure and nothing has improved as far as I can tell. Perhaps I'll change my opinion. That would be nice. I'm sure, as a new editor, you've got your own perspective, just as I have mine. As for whether you'd be more willing to accept my "criticism" or not, I frankly don't care. I've expressed myself, and I'm out. I'd point out that you've failed to make any argument at all, however. My "criticism" of a bad habit, which you've repeated, has nothing to do with what I say about another editor. But just FYI, one of these editors (more really, but RW isn't keeping track) is most certainly creepy, self-entitled, and mentally ill. Count yourself lucky if he hasn't emailed you a detailed story about it. RW's insistence on embracing any and all comers is part of the reason I've lost confidence in its ability to take care of its own business. Have fun. Nutty Roux (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I should take a break from editing then, it's not like this is something I have to do in my free time. I'd be more willing to accept your criticism if you hadn't taken to calling other editors "creepy", "self-entitled" and "mentally ill" in a previous post. Or if these topics weren't already covered before I started editing. I don't know if you're supposed to be the "more serious person" because I have no respect for somebody who goes around calling people "mentally ill" --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's pathetic that you were taught that this is an appropriate response. If you can't see how this meme and {{drink}}! reinforce an ever-narrowing groupthink and contributes to RW's already bad image among more serious people than you are, you're among those I wish would simply leave RW and go do something else. Perhaps set up an IRC channel for the other reputation and community damaging characters RW has no will to get rid of. Nutty Roux (talk) 14:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- As a rational person, you for sure understand that there is a difference between criticizing a point of view / proving it wrong and just hunting down any mention of it in any, even directly related articles. Same as I, as a rational person, understand that people who pay for domain name and hosting are the ones who set the ultimate rules on the site. For that reason I didn't make more than one attempt to add a link to "Female Privilege Checklist". But thanks for the useful data: 1) the time that it took to apply censorship and 2) the formal reason to apply it. Be safe and healthy!
- I agree, I just didn't agree with the way the argument was presented on the source, nor am I particularly fond of GirlWritesWhat as a source. In fact, I'd say previous articles by her relating to domestic abuse are enough to not use it as a link on the main article. This isn't censorship, you are very welcome to discuss the source here on the talk page, but you don't have the only say as to what is included within the article, and I, like other editors, are welcome to add, or remove content when we feel it isn't notable. If I wanted to "censor" you or your viewpoint, I would have banned your IP outright. You are welcome to add it again, I will not remove it myself this time if you'd like, I'm sure your attitude here has brought some other editors attention towards the article --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:02, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Done and thanks. Also, saying that GWW is a wrong source because "previous articles" on absolutely another topic - isn't it Ad Hominem? A woman, bisexual, divorced, mother of three, has been raped in her teen years - and still, she's not the one to speak on Female Privilege? Who is, then? I could ask her friend to compose another FPCL, she's also black and former sex worker. Will that count?
- Not really, I would judge the reliability of any publication on its "previous articles" if they are particularly contentious. If it's a position or topic with real academic weight then it will be covered by writers who haven't written in support of domestic violence [1]. I have empathy for what she has gone through and your life situations definitely give you standing to write anecdotal articles but really it should be sociologists writing on larger societal trends that define subjects such as this. You're right though, I'll engage properly with the article in question when I get the chance, I've just moved house and don't have much free time --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:38, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, my congratulations on moving! And if sociologists' opinions matter - they're sick of feminist censorship on evidences of gender symmetry of DV perpetrators [2], but I still don't claim GWW a "holy maiden" and think that she overdid it in that discussion. And practically painted a target cross on her forehead. But her edition of FPCL is just the most consistent of those I've seen. And again. A person once, in a discussion (not in an article or video or a conference) confirmed her acceptance of the idea that "violence isn't right, but a slap here and there is better than the guy taking all of her nagging and exploding in such a way that he beats her within an inch of her life" (short form: violence is generally wrong, but slap is still better than severe injuries). And it makes her banned from any quoting and strips all the respect off her? Because she didn't scream in hysteria "Shut up you wife batterer apologist, violence is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!"? Sorry. But that is either still ad hominem, or I have no idea on what ad hominem is. Her point was: claiming that women should never feel pain is acceptance of women's inherent weakness and hence, misogyny. Hope you'll find the link useful and interesting.
- I wish you had just left it as what you had first posted. I would argue that the husband removing himself from the situation entirely and maybe going into therapy is a better solution than "a slap here and there". Of course severe injuries are worse but abuse works on different levels. Anyway, we're not here to discuss that particular point, you said yourself that she overdid it and you are right that this is ad hominem. I find it hard to be open minded concerning someone who has made arguments like that, someone who has said things like I observed that women are typically more child-like not just in their outward appearance, but also in their processing and expressing of emotion, someone who supports overt misogynists like Paul Elam and that has argued in defense of PUAs and redpillers, but you are right. It is ad hominem. I also am not here to contest that women are not abusive towards men, I am male and spent some of my life in an abusive relationship with a woman. That doesn't change the way that I see domestic violence nor does it mean that I don't support female survivors of domestic abuse. I think many MRAs will defend anything as long as it seems Anti-Feminist and that is probably where some of GirlWritesWhat's more ridiculous arguments come from. Concerning the list itself, I'm not sure that they are all fitting and afterpost discussing "Feminists" is definitely strawmanning, but I do see the argument that stringent gender roles do harm both men and women. I wouldn't frame this as "privileges" but I suppose some would. I wanted to look at the other checklists and see if they had references or sources as OwningYourShit didn't have any but the Male Privilege and White Privilege links don't seem to be live at the moment. These things happen --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:00, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- Now that I think about it, you originally said "even just to let the reader see for themselves how ridiculous the concept is", but GirlWritesWhat seems to be arguing that the concept itself is just being misused, or that women have some privileges in society in addition to those that men do, not that privilege doesn't exist. What is it that you are arguing? That female privilege exists or that the concept of privilege is "ridiculous"? Is it really useful to include a link to her opinion piece if you don't even support what it is that she is saying? I'm not entirely convinced that the things on the checklist are "privileges" in the way that the term is used --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:31, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- That checklist sucks, it's half-baked thinking at its finest. Most of the so called privileges listed are simply a result of patriarchal views of women's physical inferiority. We're not linking to some crappy MRA blog. --Marlow (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- Seconded, lets take it off --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 07:45, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Expanding Earth (2 external links) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Flat Earth (7!!! external links) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Geocentrism (2 external links) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Female privilege (1 external link, and removed) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Okay. Drowninginlimbo, that's what I meant. "What is it that you are arguing? That female privilege exists or that the concept of privilege is "ridiculous"?" - I am arguing this: If it is rational for a reader to see the concept of female privilege as ridiculous and wrong, then it is rational to let them see the concept of female privilege in the first place. But well, seems I am wrong. 94.72.62.217 (talk) 10:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- So you added a link to the Female Privilege article onto the Wiki but your opinion of the link itself is that it is "half-baked thinking at its finest"? Why are you wasting our time? We could summarise that there is no Female Privilege with a line or two of text describing this without having to link to an MRA blog --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:57, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- My opinion on Marlow's argument that "half-baked thinking at its finest" == "remove now" is that it's irrational. But whatever, I accept that I failed at proving my point of view. Sorry for the wasted time.94.72.62.217 (talk) 13:12, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be so confrontational, it tends to be my gut reaction when somebody posts a link to an MRA blog here because I find so much about what they stand for abhorrent --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- I should have chosen less triggering arguments as well, my bad. Anyway, in case I find some consistent arguments and/or academic researches on the topic, I'll let you all know, and thanks for the discussion.94.72.62.217 (talk) 14:08, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's okay, I'm at fault really, I judged you based on the source that you posted. You're welcome here, and it isn't like this concept is without criticism, it's just that GirlWritesWhat isn't the best available source for it --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 16:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- I should have chosen less triggering arguments as well, my bad. Anyway, in case I find some consistent arguments and/or academic researches on the topic, I'll let you all know, and thanks for the discussion.94.72.62.217 (talk) 14:08, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be so confrontational, it tends to be my gut reaction when somebody posts a link to an MRA blog here because I find so much about what they stand for abhorrent --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- My opinion on Marlow's argument that "half-baked thinking at its finest" == "remove now" is that it's irrational. But whatever, I accept that I failed at proving my point of view. Sorry for the wasted time.94.72.62.217 (talk) 13:12, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- So you added a link to the Female Privilege article onto the Wiki but your opinion of the link itself is that it is "half-baked thinking at its finest"? Why are you wasting our time? We could summarise that there is no Female Privilege with a line or two of text describing this without having to link to an MRA blog --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:57, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Expanding Earth (2 external links) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Flat Earth (7!!! external links) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Geocentrism (2 external links) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Female privilege (1 external link, and removed) is half-baked thinking at its finest. Okay. Drowninginlimbo, that's what I meant. "What is it that you are arguing? That female privilege exists or that the concept of privilege is "ridiculous"?" - I am arguing this: If it is rational for a reader to see the concept of female privilege as ridiculous and wrong, then it is rational to let them see the concept of female privilege in the first place. But well, seems I am wrong. 94.72.62.217 (talk) 10:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- Seconded, lets take it off --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 07:45, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
- That checklist sucks, it's half-baked thinking at its finest. Most of the so called privileges listed are simply a result of patriarchal views of women's physical inferiority. We're not linking to some crappy MRA blog. --Marlow (talk) 23:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- Now that I think about it, you originally said "even just to let the reader see for themselves how ridiculous the concept is", but GirlWritesWhat seems to be arguing that the concept itself is just being misused, or that women have some privileges in society in addition to those that men do, not that privilege doesn't exist. What is it that you are arguing? That female privilege exists or that the concept of privilege is "ridiculous"? Is it really useful to include a link to her opinion piece if you don't even support what it is that she is saying? I'm not entirely convinced that the things on the checklist are "privileges" in the way that the term is used --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:31, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- I wish you had just left it as what you had first posted. I would argue that the husband removing himself from the situation entirely and maybe going into therapy is a better solution than "a slap here and there". Of course severe injuries are worse but abuse works on different levels. Anyway, we're not here to discuss that particular point, you said yourself that she overdid it and you are right that this is ad hominem. I find it hard to be open minded concerning someone who has made arguments like that, someone who has said things like I observed that women are typically more child-like not just in their outward appearance, but also in their processing and expressing of emotion, someone who supports overt misogynists like Paul Elam and that has argued in defense of PUAs and redpillers, but you are right. It is ad hominem. I also am not here to contest that women are not abusive towards men, I am male and spent some of my life in an abusive relationship with a woman. That doesn't change the way that I see domestic violence nor does it mean that I don't support female survivors of domestic abuse. I think many MRAs will defend anything as long as it seems Anti-Feminist and that is probably where some of GirlWritesWhat's more ridiculous arguments come from. Concerning the list itself, I'm not sure that they are all fitting and afterpost discussing "Feminists" is definitely strawmanning, but I do see the argument that stringent gender roles do harm both men and women. I wouldn't frame this as "privileges" but I suppose some would. I wanted to look at the other checklists and see if they had references or sources as OwningYourShit didn't have any but the Male Privilege and White Privilege links don't seem to be live at the moment. These things happen --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:00, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] About sources
Is twitter really source to cite from? 128.214.53.253 (talk) 12:35, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Use of social media as sources should really be contextual, I think in this instance it should probably be used as a quote at the top of the article rather than in the body of the text as it states what the person quoted says word for word --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
[edit] So what's the difference between privilege and envy?
A sees B attracts more C than A, so A, wanting to attract C as well, calls B privileged. How is that not A being jealous of B? In order to distinguish between privilege from envy, we have to accept that:
- A is permanently incapable of acquiring the properties of B
- A is permanently incapable of emulating the behavior of B
- A is permanently incapable of adopting unique attributes from B that may result in the same or better outcome than B
- A is a fixed point in space, a paragon of immutability, permanently incapable of changing itself
We must either accept that A is an immutable incompetent (in which we conclude to not bother applying any effort to A since it cannot be changed ever)...
Or a mutable being capable of changing itself (in which we conclude that there is no concept of privilege since A can acquire the properties of B, emulate the behavior of B, and adopt unique attributes from B).
In short, there is no such thing a B Privilege, only A Envy. — Unsigned, by: 68.170.76.117 / talk / contribs
- Egalitarian story,bro - David Gerard (talk) 20:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Vapid response,bro 68.170.76.117 (talk)
- Vapid is as vapid does. Weaseloid
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:30, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Vapid is as vapid does. Weaseloid
- It doesn't merit a real response. You're trying to use an absolutist logical classification argument on people; that's usually a good sign that you're misapplying logic. You seem to think whatever simplistic model lives in your head is going to describe the complex interrelationships of human beings perfectly and immaculately, and not only that in a way that inherently marks a specific behavior to one group, in exactly the sort of way you'd expect a bigot to do.
- I'd like to deconstruct the arguments themselves, but you really don't outlay them in a way that says anything other than "I have some preconceptions about groups A, B, and C, that I'd like to disguise with prepositional logic, so I'm pretending they're perfectly generic."
- One of the crucial things about formal logic, whose vestments you're desperately trying to cloak yourself in without understanding its point, is that you have to establish premises, and then derive conclusions. You fail to outline your prepositions in a clear manner, and we're certainly under no obligation to accept them. Ikanreed (talk) 21:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- You had it right at "it doesn't merit a real response", but then you tried to give one. B0N is drawing a false dichotomy between conditions either being equal or permanently unequal, whereas real life situations very rarely correspond to either of those polar positions. It's no more complicated than that. Wéáśéĺóíď
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:30, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- And that is precisely my point. When discussing the concept of privilege, all nuance is lost. As proof of this, the article in its current form, the concept of "intersectionality" is basically dismissed entirely, indicating that an absolutist position regarding privilege must be embraced. Yet, when presented with this absolutionist position, everyone flocks back to intersectionality. You can't have it both ways, kids. A is either immutable or mutable as a fundamental premise. The position taken thus far is that its absurd to conclude that A is immutable, thus A is mutable as long as we are free to pick and choose which intersectional influences can be dismiss based on "sociology", political identity, or other types of magical thinking and subjective hand-waving. (extreme indicators of an envious observer.)
- You had it right at "it doesn't merit a real response", but then you tried to give one. B0N is drawing a false dichotomy between conditions either being equal or permanently unequal, whereas real life situations very rarely correspond to either of those polar positions. It's no more complicated than that. Wéáśéĺóíď
- Vapid response,bro 68.170.76.117 (talk)
- From the article currently: Basically, there is no linear scale of privilege you can move up and down on, instead there are different types of privilege.
- Summarized: Basically, there are absolute categorizations of privilege that can be absolutely quantified down to the particle and applied to all people in all conditions at all time. That's effectively what is being stated, despite the rabid protestations of this current discussion in favor of the opposite 68.170.76.117 (talk)
- TL;DR: You can't clamor for fluid privilege while systematically denying it exists. 68.170.76.117 (talk)
- "quantify down to the particle" Umm no, just because it's been stated that there are different types of privilege doesn't mean you can simply quantify them as you would quantify a quantity... that would be absurd. I realise you basically believe all findings of sociological studies are equivalent to subjective hand-waving because they are not "hard science", so I suggest that you either be prepared to re-examine your stance on that or accept that this isn't going anywhere. Nullahnung (talk) 23:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- You: There's no hard quantification of privilege categories despite the current article unmistakably saying so.
- You: We can make these categories up as we go along real fast and loose to fit any situation we desire. (And people can move in between these categorizes partially based on rules that we are also inventing on the fly)
- You: Sociology is about hard science, even though we can make up categorizations of identity on the fly with no peer review or expectations of repeatability... and you should come to that conclusion, too, because RationalWiki
- Me: Did the person who created this site's name misspell ReligiousWiki? 68.170.76.117 (talk)
- You're strawmanning. Nobody's saying they can make up categories willy nilly or that sociology is about "science with no peer review or repeatability". Nullahnung (talk) 23:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'm paraphrasing to point out the hellbent child-like wish to have infinite flexibility of definition while refusing to address the absolutism rife within this article. 68.170.76.117 (talk)
- You're strawmanning. Nobody's saying they can make up categories willy nilly or that sociology is about "science with no peer review or repeatability". Nullahnung (talk) 23:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- "quantify down to the particle" Umm no, just because it's been stated that there are different types of privilege doesn't mean you can simply quantify them as you would quantify a quantity... that would be absurd. I realise you basically believe all findings of sociological studies are equivalent to subjective hand-waving because they are not "hard science", so I suggest that you either be prepared to re-examine your stance on that or accept that this isn't going anywhere. Nullahnung (talk) 23:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to say something to the effect of "you can't expect to describe relationships between groups of different social status by categorising them as either 'situation improvable, so just do it yourself instead of being jealous' or 'unimprovable, so there's no point in even trying', there are shades of 'difficult to improve' between those two extremes", but Weasloid said it close enough. So... this ^ Nullahnung (talk) 22:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Garbage in garbage out. --Marlow (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- It isn't going to work that way. I have problems with the idea, myself. It does seem to take probably valid ideas about social inclusiveness or distance, and comfort or discomfort, and then tries to shoehorn in an explicitly political framework about being put down by the Man. But that just isn't going to work; Envy, besides being a sin, is too elusive a butterfly to get boxed into a syllogism. Neither is the valid part of this, which frequently "intersect" many other factors besides the standard categories of identity politics. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 04:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Is this satire?
I honestly can't tell. This reads like a parody of feminist extremism. I'm not trying to make a joke. I genuinely cannot tell if this article is satire or if this is actually a position RationalWiki has taken. I'm going to assume satire until proven otherwise. — Unsigned, by: 100.37.62.17 / talk / contribs
- Because "privilege" is an extremist feminist concept. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 04:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's my point. Is this satire of feminist nazi movement? Because it reads like it's making fun of it. There are better ways to critique feminism than to portray all feminists as man-hating bigots. This should be edited. — Unsigned, by: 100.37.62.17 / talk / contribs
- Because noting gender-based inequalities is being a man-hating bigot. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 04:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- If you're going to reply, may I suggest at least doing the unsigs for the IP within the same edit? (I've done it now, but in future.) Also, drop the stupid sarcasm, that tends to lead to miscommunication as annoyingly demonstrated in this very thread. Nullahnung (talk) 10:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Because noting gender-based inequalities is being a man-hating bigot. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 04:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's my point. Is this satire of feminist nazi movement? Because it reads like it's making fun of it. There are better ways to critique feminism than to portray all feminists as man-hating bigots. This should be edited. — Unsigned, by: 100.37.62.17 / talk / contribs
Still can't tell if satire or genuine extremism here. — Unsigned, by: 100.37.62.17 / talk / contribs
- Privilege is not actually something that's just invented by extremist feminists. It's a concept used to describe social inequalities from academic research in the field of sociology, the story and development of which you can read about on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(social_inequality) Nullahnung (talk) 10:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the helpful and informative first comment, Nullahnung! 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 11:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Are you parodying anti-feminists or are you just that ignorant? I honestly can't tell. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 12:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Missing the point...
You're going to have to tell me quite how the race, gender, and socioeconomic background of an Angelman syndrome patient matters; aside from my anecdotal experience, you can simply read the linked article. It's not "missing the point" to say that one very extreme factor such as this can totally override the others, it's pointing out reality. If it's your argument that "a white Angelman syndrome patient still has more privilege than a black Angelman syndrome patient" then you're not even wrong; neither one can be considered in any way the beneficiary of any privilege. I suppose it's not easy to understand if you haven't worked with these people, although the linked article can give you a good sense. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Privilege isn't about how individuals experience having privilege, it's about how society treats you based on certain traits/backgrounds associated with you. For example, in an overtly racist society, the government might pay for the care of white Angelman syndrome patients while refusing to do anything for black patients. The former group in this example could then be said to be privileged compared to their black counterparts. It doesn't mean that their existence is necessarily more enjoyable or something. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 02:03, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) It's already explained within the section of the article you're editing. Group privilege such as white privilege belong to broad demographics and the fact that some individuals within that demographic have it tougher than others doesn't "cancel" this. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 02:05, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I had been thinking about what the affected person experiences; they themselves aren't going to know or care in any way about such things, as they lack the awareness to do so. In any event, my first effort definitely wasn't ideal; I completely reworked my point to reflect what I was trying to say and I'm happy to try again, it sometimes takes me a while to get the words I need out the way I want them to (autism can be a hell of a pain sometimes). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:08, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think I'm finally getting the words, so here goes; basically I'm trying to demonstrate that in contrast to Obama, someone from what would typically be considered a privileged background can end up having a remarkably underprivileged life. And so I don't need to deal in a hypothetical I'll point to the case of Genie[wp], a straight white woman who has had a uniquely horrifying life. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, but is anybody actually saying "all white people have a charmed life"? Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
Methinks it is a Weasel 02:34, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- (Bear with me, as I'm struggling a bit with words again) No, and that's not what I'm trying to argue against. As far as I can tell the article doesn't highlight Obama's success because anyone is saying "all black people don't have a charmed life", it's simply to point out how the existence of an extremely successful black person doesn't invalidate the entire concept. All I'm trying to do is illustrate the opposite scenario, that pointing to the existence of one extremely unfortunate and underprivileged white person also doesn't invalidate the concept. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Well, you could add "Likewise, some white people leading very unfulfilling and marginalized lives doesn't disprove white privilege." behind the Obama example. Though it seems a bit redundant to be honest. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:03, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- OK. I just think it's helpful to show how people can misuse individual examples in either direction, but I'll wait a little while and see what, if anything, anyone else has to say. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:14, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Well, you could add "Likewise, some white people leading very unfulfilling and marginalized lives doesn't disprove white privilege." behind the Obama example. Though it seems a bit redundant to be honest. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 03:03, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- (Bear with me, as I'm struggling a bit with words again) No, and that's not what I'm trying to argue against. As far as I can tell the article doesn't highlight Obama's success because anyone is saying "all black people don't have a charmed life", it's simply to point out how the existence of an extremely successful black person doesn't invalidate the entire concept. All I'm trying to do is illustrate the opposite scenario, that pointing to the existence of one extremely unfortunate and underprivileged white person also doesn't invalidate the concept. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, but is anybody actually saying "all white people have a charmed life"? Wẽãšẽĩõĩď
- I think I'm finally getting the words, so here goes; basically I'm trying to demonstrate that in contrast to Obama, someone from what would typically be considered a privileged background can end up having a remarkably underprivileged life. And so I don't need to deal in a hypothetical I'll point to the case of Genie[wp], a straight white woman who has had a uniquely horrifying life. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I had been thinking about what the affected person experiences; they themselves aren't going to know or care in any way about such things, as they lack the awareness to do so. In any event, my first effort definitely wasn't ideal; I completely reworked my point to reflect what I was trying to say and I'm happy to try again, it sometimes takes me a while to get the words I need out the way I want them to (autism can be a hell of a pain sometimes). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:08, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) It's already explained within the section of the article you're editing. Group privilege such as white privilege belong to broad demographics and the fact that some individuals within that demographic have it tougher than others doesn't "cancel" this. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ